history

[ivory ridge]

Venezia in AL when

[eternal veldt]

Having good barrel count does matter, I guess

[maiden citrus]

yes, based upon 4x3 bbs scaled down

[eternal veldt]

Throw the RF 203mms on while you're at it

Six inch machine gun Helena evolves to...whatever follow on Des Moines was called

[ivory ridge]

Tfw Amalfi in wows is a downscaled Littorio

[spring briar]

tfw no

[ivory ridge]

Tfw tfw

[spring briar]

norcal prelims be like

[ivory ridge]

Where are the quad 127s

[eternal veldt]

was about to ask if you bastardized scheme H

right in front?

[spring briar]

plane catapult on nose

[eternal veldt]

just one though.

[spring briar]

this must be italian

[frigid karma]

3x4 though

[delicate beacon]

I don't see any Italian AA guns.
Italian confirmed

[frigid karma]

Conde moment

[spring briar]

conde has 240's

[ivory ridge]

🤝

[frigid karma]

Is conde complete bs btw?

She should be right

[spring briar]

and it would clobber the shit out of Scharn

[eternal veldt]

please, you came up with this

[spring briar]

condé is complete bs yes

[eternal veldt]

you're in no place to shame

240mm on a cruiser

[spring briar]

have you actually read the note with this design

[ivory ridge]

Not enough 76mm to not be italian

[eternal veldt]

I was half joking.

[spring briar]

your joke was shit

[spring briar]

we could've gotten this

but weegee give us anhalt

[ivory ridge]

Skill issue

[eternal veldt]

Actually, about Conde/Patrie, any clue what's the deal with the split funnel, Riche?

[spring briar]

T10 spanish CR

[eternal veldt]

I still can't wrap my head around it, doesn't make sense either way.

[spring briar]

well

Le Fantasque had a special funnel design tested post war

that's all I could come up with

[maiden citrus]

[eternal veldt]

Any photos?

[spring briar]

non

will search

[eternal veldt]

[maiden citrus]

and then something not cursed to end on

[spring briar]

this is nice

[ivory ridge]

Forever coping for a supership

[delicate beacon]

It'll be an italian battleship with another quad 38cm

[ivory ridge]

Based

[spring briar]

Remember

Clausewitz

[frigid karma]

Clausewitz looks shit tbh

Hindy looks better

[spring briar]

it's just 7mm of extra gun caliber

truly super

[ivory ridge]

They made the super halland which is pretty fucking stupid gun wise while keeping the pan european torps

So maybe we can see a San Giorgio with the autoloaded 135s instead of the 127s as super ship

[delicate beacon]

Just unnerfing her guns wasn't an option so they had to add another.

[ivory ridge]

It's still like

The most "real" supership that isnt one of the carriers

Considering the south american super hallands were a thing

[delicate beacon]

It's amazing how you call a ship completely of their design the most real.

Paints a grim picture.

[maiden citrus]

[delicate beacon]

*slides Plan voor een Zwaar Artillerieschip*

I should raid England again for the BUSTER plans.

[ivory ridge]

Of the superships? Yeah

Because something similar at least exists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARC_7_de_Agosto_(D-06)

[maiden citrus]

based

[manic latch]

She must have something much inferior to F-22

Maneuverability is for certain. But something else

If F35 is designed to have cheaper stealth coating, and have it as export. Maybe F22 has significantly greater stealth material

Since 22 never got export model

[tepid mulch]

Did any of the high or late medieval kingdoms build new aqueducts?

[desert agate]

F-22 is an Air superiority fighter

[chilly osprey]

Cheaper /= Worse

[desert agate]

The F-35 doesn't have a "cheaper" stealth coating it has one more suited to mass production, something not possible with the comparatively limited production of the F-22

[chilly osprey]

^

F-35 has access to more advanced tech that has made stealth coating and other VLO measures cheaper. Its electronic suite also blows that of the F-22 out of the water

And is vastly better at talking to other aircraft

[desert agate]

The F-22s primary reason for not being exported is that
1 congress threw a hissy fit
2 it really wasn't designed for mass production on anywhere near the scale of the F-35

[chilly osprey]

Indeed. Whereas the JSF program that produced the F-35 was intended to be a joint program with allied nations from very early on

[tough quail]

also it looks cooler

the big single engine looks way better than the doofy ass looking sausage engines the f-22 has

[maiden citrus]

sausage = good

sorry

[tough quail]

bad and stinky

weird lumpy plane

[chilly osprey]

What kind of Eldritch sausage is that

[maiden citrus]

one from the vault

[tough quail]

https://i.imgur.com/HNeZpBf.png

spot the difference

[maiden citrus]

both look yummy

[manic latch]

Need to rub

I expect to see F35s to be replaced when Next gen of F18 replacement comes

[frigid karma]

[manic latch]

Tho it's says "complement" the F35c

[frigid karma]

Isn’t the f35 the replacement to f18

[manic latch]

But if it's a sixth gen. Why keep the fifth

[frigid karma]

Already

[manic latch]

A stop gap I would say.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-XX_program

[frigid karma]

It’s like Pershing’s and Sherman’s in Korea

[manic latch]

Ohh I see. It's a air superiority fighter

So can't bomb good as F35

[frigid karma]

It also doesn’t say whether or not it can vtol

So definitely not a replacement to the f35

[manic latch]

US prefers C variant for F35 which doesn't have vtols anyway

They use catapults instead

But she is a multirole

This replacement is air superiority for F18

Here is a concept design for F18 replacement

We may see these girls on Ford class given 2 decades

[delicate beacon]

🤢

[manic latch]

Sorry sang. Sixth generation ain't cute indeed

[maiden citrus]

based looking

[manic latch]

[chilly osprey]

I feel like we've been over this before

F-35C is an F/A-18 replacement.

F/A-XX is an F/A-18E/F replacement.

The navy's NGAD and F-35's will compliment each other in the same way that Hornets do Super Hornets

Makes sense to do your fleet like this too that way you're never faced with having your entire air wing being obsolecent at once and having to replace all the aircraft all at once.

[frigid karma]

But you can put f35Bs on a arleigh Burke

They’d have 0 weapons

But it’d be cool

[fierce sparrow]

air superior fighter... multirole fighter...

[dapper parcel]

Only USMC need VTOL, it would be wild if (supposedly) carrier-only F/A-XX can do VTOL

here comes scope overgrowth again

[ivory ridge]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perejil_Island_crisis

[manic latch]

[maiden citrus]

https://twitter.com/historydefined/status/1536968417667948545/photo/1

History Defined (@historydefined)

4000-year-old writing board by an Egyptian student with teacher's spelling corrections in red

Likes

5433

Retweets

585

Twitter · Jun 15, 2022, 7:06 AM

[manic latch]

You know I wonder something

US knows the stealth of F35

So if you used F35 against American air radar for example

Would it detect it or not

[dusty kraken]

if the F-35 is so stealthy then why can I see it?????

[manic latch]

You can see F35 from 400km distance?

Impressive eyesight my friend

[jovial elm]

There is over 20 years difference between the 2. Also, teh F35 has an engine which is far more efficient at delivering its power than the F22

[manic latch]

Should refit F22 smh

Tho they will retire in 2030s sadly

[shrewd pecan]

F-22s engines are fine

[jovial elm]

Yes they are but the F35 is just superior

Modern combat is about Sensors

[shrewd pecan]

If the F-22 needs anything it’s avionic and radar upgrades alongside a IRST

[jovial elm]

^^^^

[eager dove]

A force consisting of F-35C's can effectively wipe the field against any 4th, 4.5th and likely even opposing 5th gen airframes by itself. Start adding in what NGAD will likely be and it will be an unmitigated slaughter.

in addition to B models being able to be operated from LHD's and other smaller flat tops

very scary stuff for any opposing force

[jovial elm]

have you seen some of the reports of combat simulations, they are scary

Seriously, this is possibly the biggest jump in capabilities since the f14

[eager dove]

the jump especially between a Harrier and an F-35B is ridiculous

[jovial elm]

Harrier is beautiful but yes

then again the fundamental designs are neary 50 different from each other

[ivory ridge]

the F-35B is just such massive boost to so many NATO and allied navies

American LHDs, Italian CVLs, British CVs and Japanase CVLs all confirmed

then likely stuff like the Spanish LHD (and maybe her Australian cousins? ) (Her Turkish cousin after Erdogan stops being in power) and the South Korean CVL

[manic latch]

Erdogan did the weirdest move indeed.

Hell Turkish F35s already had their flag stickers on them

Now Anadolu will be a drone carrier

Operating TB3 drones

She would be first serious drone carrier but I think China just launched a drone carrier of their own few weeks ago

So not sure about that

[chilly osprey]

Still not clear if Spain is going to replace their Harriers, unfortunately

As for Anadolu. I'd describe it less as a 'drone carrier', which is more of a media buzzword, and more just, you know, and LHD. Which is what she is. Just one that will have a significant focus on drones for its aviation, to bully anyone with crap air defenses.

[ivory ridge]

yeah it's more like

S. Korea: all but confirmed

Spain: Mayhaps

Australia: ehhh

Turkey: omegalul

[rapid junco]

Maybe it's a silly question
But there was any 25 kilogram bombs used by the germans?
Like, a SC 25?

[chilly osprey]

Honestly Australia looks to be a flat no

RAN hasn't really indicated they want the capability

[desert agate]

Mmm that was in a different climate

Let this nuke sub shit blow over

And then we'll see

[spring briar]

[rapid junco]

I couldn't find anything about it on a recent search
I'm asking since our Fw58s Weihes were equipped with 8 bomb racks
Each one capable of holding an 25 kg bomb

And i couldn't find anything on a german 25kg bomb
Only in a 50 kg one
SC 50

[chilly osprey]

In relation to this;

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/06/hasc-chairman-turkey-not-coming-back-to-f-35-program-amid-sweden-protest/

[ivory ridge]

lol

[manic latch]

Turkey should save their F16 Block 70 request first

F35 is gone

[manic latch]

Torture I will inflict on Undef for insulting Soyuz

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/515583624083406848/985646361909297172/IMG_9061.gif

[tough quail]

dont fight my lovelies

[frigid karma]

this is good i had to put this here

[humble mulch]

Lmao

Wish that fucker was haunted in his dreams

Maybe then he'd be a better person

[spiral cedar]

Nimitz has two hands. One to strangle Japanese trade routes, the other to strangle MacArthur

[spring briar]

Do you mean strangle?

[spiral cedar]

Yes

[spring briar]

[eager dove]

Doesn’t seem like the time to deal with potentially another shit fest procurement

Cludge those vessels into being B model carriers if it’s even possible

[delicate beacon]

I'd strangle MacCunther with both.

Considering how two-faced he is, he probably has two necks too.

[spring briar]

Sang is ib again

[delicate beacon]

Degeneral was being rude. Maybe they'll not pick on me if I blend in.

[spring briar]

[delicate beacon]

Mhm still no email from the other 3 requests of the archives.

[desert agate]

Turns out Canberra's could be refit to F-35b compatibility for as little as 50 mil AUD

Which in the scheme of the ADF funding is fuckall

[eager dove]

I’m skeptical until I see an actual researched professional proposal

Because I’ve heard both sides saying it’s possible and it’s not

Saying it’s cheap and it’s gonna be an overly expensive mess

[desert agate]

Realistically the biggest change is the addition of a landing lights system and a heat resistant coating, the same kind the Americans use on their LHDs

Since the Canberra's aren't all that modified from their original design

[eager dove]

My main concern is the potential internal changes done from the original design

But I’ve not been able to get an answer one way or the other

[desert agate]

as evidenced by the ski ramp, RAN made relatively minor alterations to the ship itself, the main changes were made to areas like the island superstructure and that whole area which was built in Australia, most of the hull interior is likely to be close to the original design, although navy has been tight lipped about what they actually changed and what they didnt

so for the most part until navy comes out and says something, its speculation from both sides

issue is that the "anti carrier" side of the debate is spearheaded by the ASPI which is an organisation that is best described as being "reformers"

so dumb as shit

[chilly osprey]

I very strongly doubt that $50M AUD figure, especially if that's meant for both ships.

For reference, Cavour's refit was in the region of €74M (well over $100M AUD), and that's a ship that was designed to accomodate the JSF from the start and had already operating Harriers - with the associated ammunition and fuel stowage - for its career up to that date. Modifying both the Canberra's is probably going to see you spending >$200M AUD before you even start buying aircraft.

For the Canberra's, in addition to heat-resistant coating on the decks in landing locations, you'd also have to strengthen the flight deck, install and integrating landing systems (JPALS), and the same goes for precision approach radars. The layout of the flight deck also has to be modified to minimize the impact of and otherwise protect against jetwash the design was never intended to handle.

Below-deck modifications become even more expensive, as the internals of the ship would require significant modification for maintence locations of the F-35, upgraded and probably re-arranged ammunition handling spaces (if the necessary magazine capacity exists on board in the first place, due to the different requirements versus the parent design), and increases in the fuel stowage on board the ship. Maintenance systems for the F-35 also have to be procured and integrated with the ship, require SATCOM upgrades, the list goes on and on. It's a lengthy process, and for something like a Juan Carlos I-class LHD, there is every reason to expect that it would be a more extensive and expensive process versus something like Cavour.

With that considered, and the inherent limits of the JCI design as a fixed-wing aviation platform, I think the RAN would be better off trying to procure a dedicated carrier rather than trying to mess around with coverting one or both Canberra's to operate the F-35B.

If it truly desires to have that capacity in the first place. It may very well be a better idea to grapple with the existing programs as they are, and return to the aviation program at a later date.

[spiral cedar]

In 1909 and 1910, Rostislav and the rest of the Black Sea Fleet prepared for joint operations with submarines. She was scheduled for an installation of the first Russian underwater acoustic communication system, but the installation was interrupted and her hardware was installed on the battleship Panteleimon (the former Potemkin) instead.[34] During an anti-submarine exercise on the night of June 11, 1909, Rostislav accidentally rammed and sank the submarine Kambala. Twenty men of Kambala and two rescue divers died.[35][36] The accident was blamed on reckless maneuvering by the submarine, and Rostislav's captain was cleared of any negligence or wrongdoing.

[fierce sparrow]

https://twitter.com/TheDeadDistrict/status/1537269819183140865

𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔇𝔢𝔞𝔡 𝔇𝔦𝔰𝔱𝔯𝔦𝔠𝔱 (@TheDeadDistrict)

NG Abrams

▶ Play video

Twitter · Jun 16, 2022, 3:04 AM

[tough quail]

that is impressively cringe-y even in the realm of weird military advertisements

[dapper parcel]

so I guess they'll keep the GT huh?

[fierce sparrow]

you may notice the number of hatches on the hull...

[tough quail]

yeah its apparently even more absurd than expected

[strong plank]

I'm still cynical that the army would move to an unmanned turret given how conservative they usually are about these kinds of things

[dapper parcel]

Conundrum time:
Once you compartmentalize the crews out of the "hot" section.
Will it better to keep the ammo on the bustle, two degrees of separation away from the crews but on rather exposed area; or will it better to keep them on the hull, a more protected area and allowing turret to be lighter and faster but reducing separation and more or less making the hull expendable.

[eager dove]

it looks like a cringey car commercial

[dapper parcel]

Defense ads are weird in general. SAAB marketing meme aside, every time I disable adblocker chances are that I get ads for an... OPV

[tough quail]

its not even really passable by bad car commercial standards

watch me rotate around three times while you can barely see fucking anything and make three bad jokes that dont land

[eager dove]

yeah they atleast show the cars in the commercial

vapourware tank peddlers go home

[dapper parcel]

That looks like someone who know a secret, actually want to spill it but pretend to not want to

[tough quail]

superpower, cape not included

slow the fuck down general dynamics

warn me before you inject cringe directly into my retinas

[eager dove]

imagine being this far up your own ass over a bootleg sci-fi lookin' ass tank you won't even show

pull the reigns in a bit chief

[tough quail]

we get it you're one of the six guys still playing bf2042

[dapper parcel]

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/tanker-owner-owes-446-mln-over-2017-fatal-crash-with-us-navy-destroyer-judge-2022-06-15/

🤦‍♂️

[fierce sparrow]

[shrewd pecan]

they might be leaping, idk personally I prefer crewed turrets since I don't like the idea of entirely relying on the CRT, tho this tank to be fair will have three different thermal imagers by the look of it, tho that doesn't change the fact the crewless turret does have its advantages. We still don't know if this is a private project by GD or if the Army is directly funding this

[strong plank]

my guess is that it’s a project by GDLS that they’re pitching/going to pitch to the army

[dapper parcel]

If there's a new project by the army, they'll probably go all in for new platform reducing total weight to around 50ish tons or less

Tfw MPF is already 50 ton

[shrewd pecan]

like crewless turrets my main concern is situational awareness

while newer technologies can make this less of a concern

having the crew entirely reliant on remote thermal imagers or the CROWs to look around doesn't really sound ideal

especially with how exposed they look to be on the Abrams II

lets say the tank comes under auto cannon or small arms fire

crew can't really do much to make up for having those part of the tank damage

that and typically its best to at least have the ability to be able to turn out and look around since mk1 eyeball is still useful no matter what

[strong plank]

I guess my concern is more to do with overworking the crew

[shrewd pecan]

you can make three crewmembers work

just needs additional support assets

[strong plank]

if you’re cramming in more capabilities like GD seems to be advertising (better communication with other friendlies, drones, etc) while cutting down the crew size to 2-3

[dapper parcel]

Adopting photonic mast concept from the submarine, you can reasonably harden the "cameras" within acceptable risk. It's at least as resistant as a block of prism are to enemy fire

[strong plank]

but my main doubt is whether or not the army would be willing to take the jump or not

[shrewd pecan]

photonic mast along with covering the tank with sensors will likely mitigate that

like there's no reason why you couldn't for say do something like a F-35 helmet's see through capability for a tank

issue still boil downs to what happens when these systems are combat damaged and what the crew has to fall back on

since like these systems are gonna have to be sustaining small arms fire, medium cannon fire and likely the usual mixture of mines and explosives that wouldn't traditionally combat kill a tank, but for a crewless turreted vehicle may prove more damaging to combat effectiveness

[strong plank]

going from “we don’t use an autoloader because we like having a fourth guy for repairs” to not only an autoloader but an unmanned turret feels like a big step

not sure if it’s one the army would take rn

[shrewd pecan]

at the same time you're getting that crew survivability benefit

everything's gonna be trade off for one thing or another I suppose

[dapper parcel]

you don't have much of a fallback either when your primary and commander sight are down, the key here is preventing single point of total failure

[shrewd pecan]

I mean, commander still has the ability to turn out along with make use of the vision blocks on his hatch to look around

anyone have the image

of the full next gen abrams

and not just the marketing material

since I recall the CRTs looking a bit weird on that thing

[strong plank]

This one?

[shrewd pecan]

yeah CRTs seem a bit too tall

tho that might just be me

[dapper parcel]

There's no fundamental restriction for the same thing not to be implementable with unmanned turret

[shrewd pecan]

I mean, his placement in the hull makes that more difficult

along with limits his sight lines

[dapper parcel]

In fact, with bundled fiber optic image plane, you can put the other end of vision block anywhere in the hull

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Imaging-a-point-source-with-an-optical-fiber-bundle-A-Schematic-of-point-source-placed_fig1_332691193

something like this

completely passive if you want to

[shrewd pecan]

I suppose

idk you're going from always having that ability to turn out and look, to being restricted to the hull where his sight lines are restricted and he's likely not gonna turned out at all while in combat since I'm doubting even a protected turnout position there is really advisable

might be a bit of a conservative viewpoint on the matter but change seems to be in reaction against a threat that's not mass proliferated in the east, and still doesn't really counter the threat from more traditional ATGMs or AT weapons

[dapper parcel]

The loss of somatogravic sensation would be jarring, and I assume it would reduce prompt orientation response

Nothing like feeling by the seat of your pants yourself that your vehicle or turret is actually turning

[shrewd pecan]

like only eastern nation with a top down attack infantry weapon is China and its not even really mass issued

we'll have to see how the Next gen abrams is configured armor estimate wise

I'm guessing they're squeezing more hull armor in

tho traditionally that has a been a vulnerability on the abrams

tho I can only assume its receiving a lot more hull armor

idk my point being here, a lot the technologies that can make a crewless turret work can easily be applied to a more traditional tank without the trade offs of a crewless turret

tho if the Pentagon or GD is predicting the mass procurement of top down attack munitions I suppose that's why they're going with the concept

[dapper parcel]

They'll probably see how the OMFV going before committing, especially the OM part

[shrewd pecan]

I mean can I see the trade offs on a IFV or for example Stryker

turret not penetrating into the hull means more space for Infantry or other useful bits of equipment

that and you're carrying 6-9 dismounts able to be your eyes

tank wise you don't really have that luxury

[dapper parcel]

I mean, evaluating the implementation of the OM system, not the vehicle itself

[shrewd pecan]

fair

also depending on how they go with the entire datacentric warfare thing

I can see why maintaining the 4th crewmember may be necessary assuming drone & data duty isn't offloaded on some other platform

we'll have to see how things workout I suppose

from what I can tell, that GD tank is only a mock up right now

[zealous vine]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rl_ABjqjlsSSmT4e0h8zhfDoBr0kQvnEBEx6u-7DLjw/edit#gid=0 hello 😄

made a personal tech tree sheet for fun, and want some input from y'all

[spring briar]

[zealous vine]

Well, some of it are pretty much just copypasted from WoWs

I did take some ideas from some proposals from some WoWs forums

[spring briar]

Dunkerque in T5???

[zealous vine]

ah scheisse, here we go..

[dapper parcel]

Squad-level automated BMS is probably the way forward.
Otherwise you need some workload like a WSO, which severely limit your recruitment pool, require extensive training and isn't sustainable in the long run I guess

[spring briar]

Dunkerque should be T6 or 7

especially since you're literally putting it on the same level as Derfflinger

which would do absolutely nothing to a Dunkerque irl

[shrewd pecan]

probably, it will all depend I guess on how unit organizations go down with future platforms

like if idk, every tank ends up with its own drone

or its own accompanying unmanned tank

[spring briar]

[shrewd pecan]

I can see the use in the 4th crewmember to manage it, tho the WSO level training would likely impact recruitment

tho if they're going with three mans I'm guessing that management role is being offloaded on different units

[zealous vine]

nice to know-

[spring briar]

so please put her at T6 or 7

put Lorraine (1944) in T5

put Alsace as the T9 and take tha A17 design with 4x2 450mm guns as the tier 10 of the Normandie/Lyon line

and call it Verdun or smth

Verdun...

[delicate beacon]

No Dutch proposal.

[spring briar]

ILS NE PASSERONT PAS

[delicate beacon]

Verdun La Victorieuse
Puissez in cri que Porte la bas!

[zealous vine]

Ah yes, I was also sus of the dutch cruisers. Tried looking for any source of it..

[spring briar]

ONE MILLION SHELLS

[delicate beacon]

I'm trying to think of a good source but uh... That would be me.

[zealous vine]

Alsace is T9 already.. you have a source where I can read about the Alsace' designs?

[spring briar]

Before German tourists
vs
After German tourists

[spring briar]

John Jordan's French battleships of 1922 - 1956

[zealous vine]

ah. aight

and 4x2 450mm is 2 superfiring pairs, 1 forward, 1 aft, and not 2 quads?

[spring briar]

yes

[delicate beacon]

I should go ahead and publish my book on secretprojects. I was planning on shoving it with a batch of Nevesbu info but the archives are slow on the scans

[spring briar]

there's still toxic arsenic pools in the forests of Verdun

[zealous vine]

hmm..

might ruin the usual availability of 8 guns forward,,

[delicate beacon]

Doesn't France have a red Line stretching from Verdun into Belgium at the far west.

[spring briar]

put her in a seperate line with Normandie and Lyon

[zealous vine]

oh-

[spring briar]

This line should be
Danton (dreadnought version) -> Courbet -> Bretagne -> Normandie -> Lyon -> ??? -> ??? -> A17

the ??? can be versions of Lyon with 380 mm guns

then the second French BB line has Dunkerque prelims -> Dunkerque -> Strasbourg -> Richelieu -> Alsace -> ???

??? can be a 431 mm armed BB

which would likely have a 3 x 3 layout

[delicate beacon]

What about Richie with 3x4 34cm

[zealous vine]

I thought you suggested Lorraine-

[spring briar]

Lorraine can be in tier 5 or 6 as a premium

[zealous vine]

ah

[spring briar]

depends how much you want to buff her accuracy

[zealous vine]

what does the idea of a 3x4 431mm as a T10 sound like

though

nvm

Im excluding every other factor here..

[delicate beacon]

France was the country with the bad shells right?

[spring briar]

has working AP shells in like 1900

[spring briar]

too powerful

[zealous vine]

fair enough

they have BBs faster than the US

generally

[spring briar]

dunkeks and richies

until Iowas ofc

[delicate beacon]

Iowa cheats by being 12.000t fatter

[spring briar]

You could also put Danton at tier 3 as a Premium

[spring briar]

370mm mortar "Filloux"
the hero of Verdun

[desert agate]

I was in the yellow bit of zone rogue

Was red a few decades ago

[spring briar]

my dad works in the yellow zone in Lille

[desert agate]

Pozieres got completely wiped off the map

VB was nothing but ruins

[spring briar]

yeap

that's war on you own soil

[desert agate]

Was talking to some locals who said every ploughing season there's around 2 incidences with UXO

Some of the tractors go around with armour plate beneath them

[spring briar]

ye no surprise

[desert agate]

I wonder where they got the armour

[spring briar]

there's still hundreds of thousands of duds under the ground

just steel plates

[desert agate]

Cool place anyway

[spring briar]

ye

best plan ever germany

10/10

[zealous vine]

Just came across my mind, the heck did Mecklenburg come from

[delicate beacon]

Wargaming made it up probably.

Just like Hinden and Roon I guess

Though Roon at least had a real turret blueprint.

[somber knoll]

btw, which one is the AB+XY turret? coz iirc Hindenburg is the one with 4x3s

not sure with Mecklenburg

[delicate beacon]

Think Mecklen was same but 21cms

[eternal veldt]

Hindenburg is the one with 4 x 3

think a bloated prinz eugen (because her superstructure literally comes from her)

Roon is a bloated Leipzig/Nürnburg

[zealous vine]

a

[eternal veldt]

Mecklenburg is just a lazy turret swap, something close to Pommern (there is, as far as I know, literally just a brief mention in Hitler's naval minutes to use 3 x 4 380mm if the 406mms are not serviceable)

[zealous vine]

12.. 15 inchers...'

[eternal veldt]

That said, Germany was investigating quads during said period

See here.

[zealous vine]

interesting.. to say the least

also, I notice the french inspiration with separating the gunhouse into 2

were they just.. gonna make a german Alsace..?

[eternal veldt]

Nobody knows where these are supposed to go

Could be experimental in nature

[manic latch]

Finally choosing the right path

Big interest on American style Armata

[fierce sparrow]

so... back to TTB again?

[delicate beacon]

TTB?

[fierce sparrow]

https://i.imgur.com/F3Yiyfj.jpeg

[zealous vine]

@spring briar Would the French prefer a 2 quad, or 4 twin (2 superfiring) arrangement? (It's for the 431mm design you suggested)

[spring briar]

3 triples

[zealous vine]

Ah wait, I messed up my statement, I meant 3x3 instead of 4x2

But ig it's already answered

[spring briar]

[tough quail]

@ivory ridge

[ivory ridge]

I got this dépliant where i work

They are museums so it's technically history right?

[tough quail]

absolutely, especially since the maranello one is super high quality according to vae

[manic latch]

F*rrari fans explaining why red color makes them better than Lamborghini

[tough quail]

oh no it's not the red

it's the actual racing success and the fact half their stock isn't crashed into trees and other drivers by social media influencers

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RMkHMSIHZk

Gold Guns...
In Beretta Museum...

[ivory ridge]

Plus they still have the dépliant of this where i went to last year

But i might ago again because it cool

[manic latch]

[ivory ridge]

They have a bunch of soviet planes

[tough quail]

also now that i can see this with my actual eyes on resolution not for ants

512TR, 812, two F430s, a California, and a 458

[ivory ridge]

I still have the pics from last year in multiple imgur albums

Anti-air and ground vehicles https://imgur.com/gallery/GNIiO8I
Armaments and parts https://imgur.com/gallery/NnbW5Zb
NATO planes part 1 https://imgur.com/gallery/85mgFgo
NATO planes part 2 https://imgur.com/gallery/W7KbgSV
Soviet planes https://imgur.com/gallery/rFhPBAB
Helicopters and memorial https://imgur.com/gallery/vIz2OA2

this post might contain erotic or adult content
So true

[tough quail]

i looked up the actual source and

it's a charity event apparently

bruh

[ivory ridge]

https://twitter.com/ItalianNavy/status/1537012597647716352?t=FqFsKucbuzueSSYuNDzeHg&s=19

Marina Militare (@ItalianNavy)

Che ci fa una Ferrari sul ponte di #naveGaribaldi?
A bordo dell’incrociatore portaeromobili della #MarinaMilitare, Il rosso fiammante ha colorato un evento benefico di inclusività e apertura.

Scopri di più su 📖🔗 https://t.co/AS5JCBEv0w

#NoiSiamolaMarina

Twitter · Jun 15, 2022, 10:02 AM

[tough quail]

thats rad as hell

[ivory ridge]

they still call Garibaldi Aircraft Carrying Cruiser

Feels treaty man

[spring briar]

[tough quail]

weird seaplane cruisers were the coolest part of ww2 anyway its fine

[chilly osprey]

Less treaty, more goes back to her original design and procurement

Also today I learned that the air force took delivery of the fifth F-35B

So I am salty

[spring briar]

They farm salt in my hometown

I feel you

[chilly osprey]

Though, in somewhat more uplifting news - this year may see a lot of F-35 deliveries in general, which may also include the navy's fourth F-35B. Phase 1 of Italy's F-35 procurement was supposed to see 28 aircraft delivered by the end of 2022, as I understand it, and we're at 22 now... though we've seen three aircraft delivered this year already at a point when, last year, only one of the three delivered that year had as of yet entered service.

Sooo.... maybe we get nine new aircraft this year?

[spring briar]

dunno

[ivory ridge]

[chilly osprey]

So, curiosity got the better of me, so I decided to take a look at production at Cameri to date...

Evidentally the secret behind the trickle of production for Italian F-35's is the number of Dutch F-35's that Cameri has been pumping out since 2019...

Also pls ignore typo in top right

[ivory ridge]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FB-B-fxWYAEZSXz.jpg:large

[manic latch]

Kuznetsov Fren

[fierce sparrow]

well... well..

[rapid junco]

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/aircraft-propulsion/netherlands-selects-kc-390-hercules-replacement

@delicate beacon

[manic latch]

Just a little bit more

[tough quail]

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/06/am-general-will-unveil-hybrid-humvee-soon-targets-national-guard/

[manic latch]

For export only I assume?

Since JLTV was going to replace humvees

[tough quail]

Prooobably

unless its some weird stopgap

[manic latch]

electric Abrams as next generation

[tough quail]

it's not gonna be full electric

[fierce sparrow]

[eager dove]

malding

[tough quail]

i like the downvote

[silver crest]

[manic latch]

Il-38 and Midway

[subtle prawn]

https://youtu.be/NFqwQlM_g1Q

[tough quail]

that is poorly worded clickbait even by MAH standards

[tender monolith]

lmao

airpower failed

how braindead do you have to be

[chilly osprey]

Because if you don't make the titles really dumb the algorithm fucks you

[exotic scarab]

I dont think it failed in ww2

[shrewd pecan]

full electric military vehicles are kinda a bad idea with current tech

[tough quail]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/874447411144171610/915938384080437248/IMG_1296.gif

[shrewd pecan]

Not only would the battery be a massive fire hazard

it would take forever to get a vehicle to be combat charged

[tough quail]

hybrid cool and good

energy regen go

[frigid karma]

How credible is military history visualized

That German dude

[fierce sparrow]

Austrian iir...

[frigid karma]

He’s Austrian?

Accent sounds very German though

[fierce sparrow]

Yes, he said that several times in the past.

[chilly osprey]

I would definitely say both MAH and MHV rank in the upper percentile of credible historical youtubers

[chilly osprey]

Not really what he's arguing in the video.

Clickbait title doesn't really explain what the video is actually talking about, but the point he's addressing is rather the idea that airpower alone could win conflicts, which is an idea that stretches back to the early days of air warfare with powered flight.

[fierce sparrow]

Anyway, what Airpower was he talking about? I am abit cofused for the title.

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/tornado-gif-20726054

[tough quail]

based

[frigid karma]

1944 Sherman variant

53 tons

[maiden citrus]

yeah yeah fish let's get you to bed

[chilly osprey]

Let it never be said Fisher was a man of anything other than the extremes

[spiral cedar]

Also Fisher: rush builds HMS Dreadnought

[tough quail]

battleships in service: 0

submarines in service: yes

fisher win again

[ivory ridge]

daily reminder
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/684722676371423267/987083659091771412/IMG_20220616_215609_506.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/684722676371423267/987083658856906782/IMG_20220616_215607_764.jpg

The Regia Aeronautica copied Miyazaki

[sullen canyon]

What was first, that movie or that sticker?

[ivory ridge]

[sullen canyon]

[ivory ridge]

i wonder

[dusty kraken]

obviously the italian airforce copied it smh

[manic latch]

Sanest Yamato fan

[delicate beacon]

I asked this before in a stream, but if The Chieftain is tank Jesus, MAH is airplane Jesus, Ian (I think his name was) is gun Jesus, who's ship Jesus?

[sullen canyon]

Depends, are you going with present day, or all time?

[spring briar]

Why didn’t the British seriously bombard the Georgette offensive with Monitors

[spiral cedar]

“Is there anything outside 2,000 yards,” he then asked,
that the big guns [sic] in its hundreds of tons of mediaeval castle can effect, that its weight in 6-inch guns without the castle could not effect equally well? And inside 2,000, what, in these days of gyros, is there that the torpedo cannot effect with far more certainty?
Jane thus suggested that British strategic interests might be better served by replacing the battleship with large armoured cruisers that exchanged big-guns and thick armour for high speed.

(1902)

[manic latch]

Doesn't exist yet

[sullen canyon]

Actually

[delicate beacon]

I was thinking Ryan from New Jersey.

[sullen canyon]

There is a few most likely

[spiral cedar]

Also in his Mediterranean papers Fisher called for battle ranges of from 3,000 to 4,000 yards at a time when the annual prize firings were carried out at 1,400 to 1,600 yards. At the longer ranges, the 6-inch quick-firing gun was superior to the big guns of the main battery, he maintained, because “the increased rapidity of firing . . . enables the range to be quickly obtained.” “The armament we require,” he explained further,

In these days of very rapid movement the huge gun firing (comparatively) slowly is as obsolete as the foot soldier in the Boer War!
Whoever hits soonest and oftenest will win!```
Fisher expected that long range shooting with 6-inch quick-firers would result in heavy damage to enemy vessels before British ships could be hit in return. French battleships, he wrote to Selborne on 6 October 1901, were to be knocked out at long range
```by one of the multitudes of quick-firing projectiles that will be flying about . . . even if all the rest are lost shots! We carry more ammunition than any foreign ship and can afford ‘long bowls’. Also (I speak from experience) there is nothing more demoralizing than to be fired at without firing back.```
Fisher, in short, believed that superiority in speed could be used to impose a long-range engagement upon an opponent which could be won decisively with quick-firers.

(1901)

[sullen canyon]

[maiden citrus]

wows unicum atlanta player

[sullen canyon]

If anything I think he was too far ahead of his time thinking that

[maiden citrus]

the big gun is obsolete!

-a few years later-

let us do all big guns!

nah he's just...

interesting

[spiral cedar]

In fairness

Salvo firing had not been invented yet

But in firing experiments that were carried out at ranges of from 5,000 to 6,000 yards in 1899 and 1900, gunnery officers of the Mediterranean Fleet found that the accuracy of naval artillery fire could be determined by discharging several guns together in a “salvo”, whose projectiles fell at about the same time and within a relatively small area.

Or rather, were just beginning to be studied at the time

[maiden citrus]

the ultimate battleship, 32 knots, no armor, a vast array of high angle 3'' guns

this will win us the day

what do you mean none of our guns do damage

[sullen canyon]

[spring briar]

No worries, in 1914 strategy changed even more quickly than fisher’s mind

[spiral cedar]

Fisher had played an important, if not a direct, role in the development of fire control. In 1899 and 1900 while Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean, he had continued the long-range firing experiments—begun in 1898 by his predecessor, Admiral Sir John Hopkins—which led to the practice of firing salvoes described earlier. The lessons of the Mediterranean long-range experiments may have caused Fisher to consider the desirability of uniform-caliber armaments. In his Mediterranean papers, he mocked the practice of equipping ships with quick-firing batteries that included guns of three different sizes by suggesting that it was the result of no more than a wish to have “representatives of all calibers” as if “you were peopling the Ark.” In his comments to the Admiralty of June 1901 on the fast battleship question, Fisher called for a simpler mixed-caliber system that would consist of a “uniform armament of 7 1/2 inch guns” in association with a battery of 10-inch guns, and in his memoirs he claimed to have discussed the uniform-caliber armament issue with William Henry Gard, the Chief Constructor of the Malta Dockyard, as early as in 1900. In February and March 1902, Fisher prescribed a mixed-caliber armament for his ideal armoured cruiser, but in July 1904, he called for uniform-caliber armaments for both battleships and armoured cruisers in a paper that outlined the reforms that he planned to introduce on his assumption of office as First Sea Lord in the coming October.

[ivory ridge]

brb building 10k ton destroyer with like 50 Oto 76mm

[sullen canyon]

So it's like a certain caliber for the secondaries and another caliber for the main guns

[spiral cedar]

Yeh

[sullen canyon]

The man was ahead of his time, and it helped apparently

[spiral cedar]

“Now the result of all long-range shooting,” he argued in papers given to Lord Selborne on the day that he took office,

The speed of firing at long ranges is no longer limited by the loading of the gun, but by the limitations imposed to obtain accuracy of fire. Suppose a 12-inch gun to fire one aimed round each minute. Six guns would allow a deliberately aimed shell with a huge bursting charge every ten seconds. Fifty per cent of these should be hits at 6,000 yards. Three 12-inch shells bursting on board every minute would be hell!```
Fisher’s description of the shots being marked “preferably one gun at a time” indicated perhaps an imperfect understanding of the principles of the salvo system, but whatever the case he was convinced that advances in fire control had swung the balance in favor of the 12-inch gun by the time he became First Sea Lord on 20 October 1904.

By 1904 he’s come around to big guns again

[ivory ridge]

but in July 1904, he called for uniform-caliber armaments

Cuniberti is best known for an article he wrote for Jane's Fighting Ships in 1903, advocating a concept known as the "all-big-gun" fighting ship.

Gee

[maiden citrus]

say a bunch of random extreme bs and at least something will stick as being future sight

[spring briar]

Atleast he was against an amphibian landing at Galipoli

[ivory ridge]

His ship would be fast, so that she could choose her point of attack.

Cuniberti is just Italian Fisher

This heavily armoured colossus would be impervious to all but the 12-inch (305 mm) guns of the enemy

[spring briar]

Cunnyberti

[ivory ridge]

kinda

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-the-voices-hallucinations-gif-24630735

[maiden citrus]

Poundstone 🤝 Cuniberti

[spring briar]

Danton was impervious to British 305’s until 1922 when they finally fixed their shells

[ivory ridge]

which wows ship would make the AL community implode more

Cunnyberti or Breast

[maiden citrus]

However, by the March and June 1903 editions of Proceedings, Poundstone began advocating for an all-big-gun arrangement, featuring twelve 11-inch (279 mm) guns mounted on a 19,330 long tons (19,640 t) ship. In October of the same year, the Italian naval architect Vittorio Cuniberti presented a similar idea in an article for Jane's Fighting Ships

[spring briar]

Schlieffen

[ivory ridge]

where funny name

[spring briar]

And I would drive over to the manjuu office to beat some ass for adding Schlieffen to the game

Cus apparently weegee is fine with naming ships after plans to cause cultural genocide

[ivory ridge]

I still need to look for more sources on how much Cuniberti actually worked on the Ganguts

[spring briar]

I hope he wasn’t behind the 152 mm barbette armor

[spring briar]

Von Shleepen plan

(Because I sleep on it)

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/515583624083406848/985646361909297172/IMG_9061.gif

[ivory ridge]

maybe dont fire at nothing next time

[spring briar]

Well thanks for summing up the total of Italian early war contribution up for me

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/273147912387559428/742599766416031864/image0-2.gif

[spring briar]

[spiral cedar]

In February 1900, Pollen travelled to Malta to visit an uncle, Sir Clement La Primaudaye, R.N., the Superintendent of Police. While there he by coincidence met a cousin, William Goodenough, a lieutenant in the Royal Navy who would later win distinction at the Battle of Jutland. Goodenough invited his relation to witness a seagoing practice shoot, and Pollen thus sailed on board H.M.S. Dido, a second-class protected cruiser armed with 6-inch and 4.7-inch guns, in the company of the battleship Empress of India, whose armament was composed of 13.5-inch and 6-inch guns. During the gunnery exercise, the two ships took turns firing and towing the target, and because their courses were parallel and speeds equal, the range of approximately 1,500 yards did not change. That very morning Pollen had read in a copy of The Times, which had been posted from London, that naval 4.7-inch guns used on land against the Boers in the war in South Africa had been effective at five miles (8,800 yards). He thus asked his service companions why practice took place at ranges that were much less than those to which the guns of the cruiser—and the even more powerful guns of the battleship—were evidently capable of firing accurately. Pollen was then told that the range limitation was imposed largely by the lack of an efficient range-finder.

[spring briar]

Boer war moment

Same problem at the western front in 1914 really

75mm field guns could reach 11km but their mounting only allowed a range of under 6km

All in all it wasn’t the lack of use of new technology

But the misuse of it

That was the big problem

[spiral cedar]

In the 1906 edition of Fighting Ships in an article entitled “A New ‘Ideal’ Ship,” Cuniberti returned to the subject of a “supreme” warship suited to “Britain the Wealthy.” As a result of his study of the Russo-Japanese War, Cuniberti had concluded that the 12-inch gun was not as effective against armoured targets as he had imagined in 1903. He thus urged that a new “Ideal” British battleship be armed with eight 16-inch guns, which at 10,000 yards would penetrate “the thickest plates of the enemy and maintaining at that distance an energy . . . sufficient to damage a vessel so thoroughly that one blow would be sufficient to render it unserviceable.”

[spring briar]

Ok did he read the note about shell use at Tsushima?

Or any texts on external ballistics?

[spiral cedar]

Who

[spring briar]

Cuniboi

[spiral cedar]

What would external ballistics have to do with that

[spring briar]

Jumping from 12 to 16 inch guns

[chilly osprey]

Might have to do with the performance of shells at obliquity? Would have to find the original article to be sure.

His first 'dreadnought' ships date to the early 1890s and used 203mm guns, he moved to advocating for 12" guns because of the performance of more modern armor against capped AP at impacts of greater obliquity

But that's just a guess on my part with regards to if that applies to the 16" shells at all

[spring briar]

Even 16” shells won’t do so well at this stage of development

[maiden citrus]

18'' it is

[spring briar]

By WW1, if your shell can at leat get through plate at 30 degrees of obliquity you should be glad

Let alone 20 degrees through a 152 mm kc plate

Britain was only improving AP shell caps in 1915-1916 without doing anything to the fuse reliability or shell integrity

And Germany was continuously using the old AP caps with very limited effectiveness

Same with Japan even

[chilly osprey]

From Cuniberti's 1903 Article in Jane's. I actually forgot he raised the point in that article.

If, however, the hit is an oblique one, and the distance is considerable, it appears necessary that we should adopt the calibre of 12-inch if we want to be absolutely certain of sinking the adversary, striking him only on the belt. But the loading of such guns is as yet very slow, although it has been greatly improved of late. Besides, the number of hits that one can get in on the belt itself is small. From this it appears that in our ideal and intensely powerful ship we must increase the number of pieces of 12-inch so as to be able to get in at least one fatal shot on the enemy’s belt at the water-line before she has a chance of getting a similar fortunate stroke at us from one of the four large pieces now usually carried as the main armament.```

[spring briar]

Can’t comment on Italian shells since I haven’t seen any pictures or cross sections

:doomer:

[chilly osprey]

The eternal struggle

[spring briar]

Except this

[chilly osprey]

IF ONLY

ineedit.png

[spring briar]

Small armoured cruiser

[maiden citrus]

seems like a good ship

[spring briar]

It appears to me, as chief of naval ordance of the ALO discord republic that British and German armor piercing cap design had not significantly improved from Russian armor piercing cap design used at Tsushima, more than a decade before this observation.

[maiden citrus]

[spiral cedar]

The hardness matters more than the shape, most likely

[spring briar]

The thickness and hardness are of prime importance

I hope that british and german AP cap tips were hardened at this point

I think they were

Though for German shells the internal cavity of the cap seems to kinda negate this

[chilly osprey]

What year for each design?

[spring briar]

1st is in use on the Deutschland class pre dreads

Second on the battlecruisers

Third on the deutschland class cruisers

Fourth on scharn and gnei

24cm solid shot AP my beloved

Undoubtedly solid shot AP would make sparks when hitting armor sufficiently energetic to light a cigarette

[frigid karma]

fires solid shot AP to set internal fires in enemy ship
5d chess

[ivory ridge]

Argentinian Littorio

Poggies

[delicate beacon]

[frigid karma]

Coming soon to a naval action game near you

Watch as they give her actually workable accuracy and range

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/273147912387559428/742599766416031864/image0-2.gif

[delicate beacon]

Alp.

I have an image I want to use but I lost the source ;_;

[frigid karma]

Cheer up, here’s carraciolo’s sternpost

Holds the rudder

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/american-psycho-patrick-bateman-christian-bale-nodding-talking-too-much-gif-24309251

[delicate beacon]

The original looked better

Where did I get this one from though

[spiral cedar]

The Russo-Japanese War, which was being fought while the Royal Navy experimented with long-range firing, showed both that heavy guns could actually hit, albeit rarely, at extraordinary ranges and that single hits could be decisive. British naval attaché Captain Pakenham famously remarked that:
the effect of the fire of every gun is so much less than that of the next larger size, that when 12in guns are firing, shots from 10in pass unnoticed, while, for all the respect they instill, 8in or 6in guns might just as well be pea-shooters…this [refers] entirely to moral effect… Everything in this war has tended to emphasise the vast importance to a ship, at every stage in her career, of carrying some of the heaviest and furthest-shooting guns that can be got into her.
The Japanese now considered 8in and similar guns worthless; they wanted only 12in for their future cruisers and battleships.
In the attaché’s account of the Battle of the Yellow Sea, the Admiralty’s anonymous commentator wrote that:
compared with peace practice, ranges of 10,000 metres (10,930 yards) and 12,000 metres (13,120 yards) sound preposterous, but they are not really so. Firing begins to look possible at 20,000 metres (21,870 yards), reasonable at 14,000 metres (15,310 yards), close range may be counted as setting in at about 10,000 metres (10,930 yards), and at 5000 metres (5468 yards) ships might as well be alongside each other as far as appearances and sensation of proximity go.
The Royal Navy was struggling to extend normal gunnery range to 6000 yards.

[ivory ridge]

"After the presentation of John Cocker's proposal for a modernization of the Leopard, which took place at EUROSATORY 2022, the Italian company also presented an interesting solution that meets the very interests and desires of the Brazilian Army: the installation of the HITFACT MkII tower, of third generation, which is currently integrated into the Centauro II armored fighting vehicle."
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/858825164313854012/987136847819980810/unknown.png

[spiral cedar]

At Jutland, Admiral Jellicoe remarked that his master plot seemed to show a cruiser squadron proceeding at three knots and Beatty’s battlecruisers at sixty. He may have realised how lucky he was not to have adopted divisional tactics.

[chilly osprey]

Leo 1 continues to have more variants designed lol

[fierce sparrow]

Ok... that looks better than the Cockerill's cursed Leo1

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvbnKq-eLUo

[dusty kraken]

man the title gets cut off very awkwardly

[gilded girder]

Ahh yes. The notorious

John 🐓

[cinder escarp]

Yeah, John 🐓

It's been mocked on many other history channels already

[junior trench]

John 🐓 ? The protagonist of 🐓 and 🔮 Torture by Wikipedia the Free Encyclopedia?

[spring briar]

[cinder escarp]

It is very hard to discuss anything about that boat without violating rules

[spring briar]

Just watch ig

[cinder escarp]

Even the name of it was chosen as bait

[delicate beacon]

Where da monarch smashing a bottle

[junior trench]

we've got fish boats coming soon too

and fish boats are famous for flipping flattops

[shrewd pecan]

they went with Fujian eh

man she's a lot bigger than I thought she was going to be

gonna be interesting to see what her airgroup ends up looking like alongside what they plan on using her for deployment wise

[eternal veldt]

While we're at it...

[spring briar]

hoony

[fierce sparrow]

[cinder escarp]

Straight to harbor trials

[shrewd pecan]

big girl

any idea what they plan on throwing on her?

guessing J-15s

[cinder escarp]

J-15Ts to start, J-35s in time.

[shrewd pecan]

is the FC-31 actually getting PLA funding now?

could of sworn that thing was still in development hell from being mostly privately funded

[cinder escarp]

It's been J-35 for some time

[delicate beacon]

Cant wait for China to copy the F35s tendency to go for a swim.

[shrewd pecan]

eh

the entirety of everything Chinese being a clown is overblown

that combined with convergent design since most fifth gens already look alike

[fierce sparrow]

[shrewd pecan]

tho seeing the tendencies of Shenyang's other aircraft it will probably take a dip quite a few times

[cinder escarp]

I cannot go into detail on the design/copy argument without butting up against the rules, so I won't say anything.

[shrewd pecan]

idk it just doesn't really seem fitting to smack the entire copy argument J-XX series of aircraft since from what I can tell is that they're mostly original aircraft with most of the similar design aspects being due to convergent design

tho certainly China has plenty examples of copied aircraft, especially their various Sukhoi clones/developments

👁️

the fish has been angered hasn't he

[weary timber]

There is no rules against discussing how similar or dissimilar designs of ships/planes are. You can talk about these without being political or racist.

[shrewd pecan]

idk we aren't diving into the politics of it

[weary timber]

Exactly

[shrewd pecan]

not like we're touching on potential Israeli involvement in the J-10 or anything in that ballpark

[weary timber]

I would think that's fine too? Not entirely too sure on the geopolitics of that exact issue.

[shrewd pecan]

eh, only real thing of note there is the J-10 looking exactly like a cancelled Israeli plane

and the history of Israeli arm sales to China

but again Israel basically sold arms to everyone so that's nothing new

[weary timber]

Well China does certainly reverse engineer a lot of stuff. Some sanctioned reverse engineering too, eg, submarines engines from a German company, that has been certified by said company.

[shrewd pecan]

J-XX considering how long its designs have been in development I chalk up most of the similarities to convergent design

especially when most of these designs date back to the 90s

and you can't really just shit out a design overnight, especially a fifth gen plane with bits of stolen data and images of a American plane

[weary timber]

I honestly don't see how j-20 is similar to the f35 or f22, but I'm only relying on visuals since I'm def no expert on these things.

[shrewd pecan]

J-20s in a completely different role set tbh

I'd compare it more to the MIG-31 than anything else in terms of mission set

[spring briar]

J-20 is a straight linus jet

[shrewd pecan]

since its a interceptor not really meant to dogfight

idk you can see some raptor in it if you look hard enough but you can say that about any fifth gen

[weary timber]

I just like the canard design and think it looks pretty

[spring briar]

canard

[desert agate]

Canards based

[spring briar]

conard means idiot in french

[shrewd pecan]

what was it the FC-36

[desert agate]

Those engines got me

[weary timber]

typo my bad

[shrewd pecan]

that VTOL aircraft that's shown its face time to time

[spring briar]

canard also means duck in french

quack

🦆

[desert agate]

[shrewd pecan]

it had some weird designation

idk, if your going to make the copying allegation against any form of Chinese aircraft I'd just leave it to the J-11 and its developments

[desert agate]

So have they laid down 004 yet or are they giving it a bit?

[shrewd pecan]

I mean they only have capacity for one carrier

[spring briar]

Traveling in a fried-out Kombi

[shrewd pecan]

so Type 004 is probably gonna be a year or two off

[desert agate]

On a hippie trail head full of zombie

[spring briar]

https://tenor.com/view/awesome-job-mate-gif-9956404

[desert agate]

give me back my carriers RAN

Come on they have a reason to exist now

[shrewd pecan]

Aussie QE

[spring briar]

be the australian the west thinks you are

[desert agate]

I mean

If you can find the manpower for a QE

You can do it for sure

[shrewd pecan]

you're probably better off just gutting one of the Canberra's and making actually capable of F-35B ops

[desert agate]

Having looked at things the Canberra's might not need a gutting

[shrewd pecan]

what are even the internal changes for the Canberra that make it incapable of F-35B ops

[desert agate]

Could be around $50mil for the refit

[shrewd pecan]

since everyone keeps bringing that up and I'm just wondering

[desert agate]

The problem is we don't know

[shrewd pecan]

like obviously it needs the upgrades for F-35B ops

[desert agate]

The whole allegation that the Canberra's interior layout is wholly unsuited for F-35b ops comes from an ASPI article from when the ships first commissioned

[shrewd pecan]

but it seems weird to me if the hanger bay was all that different from the original ships

especially if the ramp was retained

[desert agate]

So the ASPI in true ASPI fashion made some claims that the Canberra's were so ridiculously changed that it was cost prohibitive to refit them for F-35 ops

Despite the fact that RAN didn't even remove the ski ramp

ASPI are reformers btw

[shrewd pecan]

how wonderful

[desert agate]

And because RAN refuses to disclose what changes they've actually made to the ships, it's entirely up to speculation how much it would cost

Hypohistericalhistory did a good video on it, even though I disagree with some of his reasoning

If the Canberra's are closer to the Juan Carlos I design than alleged by the ASPI, then refit cost won't be much more than the cost of fitting a landing approach system and a heat resistant flight deck coating of the same kind the USN uses on their LHDs

[spring briar]

HMAS Kangoroo pls

[desert agate]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Kangaroo

[maiden citrus]

HMAS Kiwi CV

[spring briar]

YEEEEEES

[shrewd pecan]

I mean, Canberra's have to be a much cheaper option than pursing a entirely new carrier

[desert agate]

Prototype design for the Bathurst class

[shrewd pecan]

not really sure how the Australian navy would be able to support a third capital ship like that regardless

[desert agate]

HMAS Choules is up for retirement

[shrewd pecan]

talking like escort and manpower wise

since there's only 3 Hobarts

[desert agate]

Establishing an RAAF squadron of F-35bs would allow a refit Canberra to embark an F-35 squadron when required for certain mission profiles, such as in the many many situations where deploying a full BTG isn't necessary

But also wouldn't impact its ability to perform landing operations when conducting operations with international allies

[shrewd pecan]

mmm

[desert agate]

So it is a good cost effective option that maintains the RANs world class capability to deploy forces at will, and also provides a fixed wing air capability when required

Assuming of course that the Canberra's are closer to the Juan Carlos I than has been previously alleged

It's very similar to what the British are doing with their QEs with RAAF squadrons operating the F-35s allowing them to be land based when needed and deployed on ship when needed

[spring briar]

https://va.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_qurtnmg6Sp1z3o46j.mp4

@jovial elm

POV: you just got into naval history

[desert agate]

Problem is that with the large sway the ASPI holds on political and military opinion, being taxpayer funded and a very large organisation, this solution isn't being seriously discussed by navy or in government

So basically disband the ASPI

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Choules

so she's due for replacement?

[maiden citrus]

pov; you just got into naval history

http://puu.sh/J6lE7.png

[spring briar]

[maiden citrus]

http://puu.sh/J6lEh.png

[spring briar]

richie

[desert agate]

By the end of the decade yes

[shrewd pecan]

guessing she's being replaced by another LPD

[maiden citrus]

richy is 12.9, these two are wrong armor values that get repeated

[spring briar]

richy is 327

everyone just rounds off to the nearest 0

or the nearest 50 in Scharnhorst's case

[delicate beacon]

Eh, then it would be 300 instead of 350.

[desert agate]

I'll have to check the white paper but I don't think any plans have been made public

[spring briar]

where's the 50

I didn't say multiple of 50

you baka

[desert agate]

Probably will be outlined in detail in the next white paper

[eternal veldt]

If everyone rounds to 50

[shrewd pecan]

since I'm doubting another LHD or a proper carrier is in the RANs future

[eternal veldt]

Why doesnt everyone use 350mm guns?

Checkmate riche

[desert agate]

The LHDs were purchased for a different geostrategic situation in the indo pacific

[eternal veldt]

No logistics issue if every nation uses one caliber only

[spring briar]

Dunkek with 350's
hmmm yus

[desert agate]

Australia at the time was leaning towards China and away from America and with counter terrorism and regional stability being the primary aims of the navy without a serious risk of great power conflict in our region

[eternal veldt]

But Riche has 350s now

[spring briar]

🦆

that's ok

[desert agate]

So whatever comes next won't be seen until the next white paper regardless

[shrewd pecan]

I mean if its a refocus towards great power conflict I'm doubting a proper carrier is in the future without either another batch of Hobarts that or another class of destroyers

[spring briar]

[maiden citrus]

oh no

[desert agate]

Depends on whether we can fix manpower constraints

[maiden citrus]

he turned red

[spring briar]

ROMANIAN OIL IS MINE

[eternal veldt]

Not exactly on the same topic, but sorry hit, I hate how the Canberras look

Not just a matter of ski jump either

[desert agate]

I hate you

Jk ily bro

[eternal veldt]

Hobarts are good, though

[spring briar]

looooool

imagine people calling your ships ugly

can't relate

[shrewd pecan]

like, 3 destroyers aren't really gonna cut it for escorting a potential CV and providing air defense for the Australian mainland

[spring briar]

can't relate at all

[desert agate]

Navy will probably expand regardless

[eternal veldt]

I dont know how to put it

[desert agate]

But more ships means more manpower strain

[shrewd pecan]

idk maybe we'll see Aussie Burke or DDG(X) in the future

[eternal veldt]

Its almost as if someone used the sandpaper too much at the front

10grit

[spring briar]

woah

chonker

[shrewd pecan]

the ship with no chin

[desert agate]

Have fun manning a whole class of ships when crew retention and morale are at an all time low and the whole defence force only grows by 300 members per year

[eternal veldt]

I guess if it's a hurricane bow or something it'd be more appealing to me

[shrewd pecan]

manpower is a obvious limitation regardless

[eternal veldt]

Or...just how Britain did QE and the Centaurs, I guess

[spring briar]

it would help if it didn't look like a bathtub

[shrewd pecan]

tho, for great power confrontation RAN is gonna have to expand one way or another

[maiden citrus]

did you really just tell hit a british ship would look better

that's a low blow

[shrewd pecan]

Canberra/Juan Carlos tbh

[desert agate]

Defence just needs to treat people better and fix morale

[eternal veldt]

Sorry Maka, I'm on board with British bow design

And fwiw, I like Melbourne, hit's literal body pillow at this point /s

Which is originally a british design afterall

[maiden citrus]

that sarcasm mark is unnecesary there

[desert agate]

at least one ship in the RAN losing its entire enlisted crew over the last 14 months

[spring briar]

you haven't seen cute until you've seen a baby wallabi on HMS Renown

[eternal veldt]

Still angry the 1/700 Colossus line got fucking axed

[desert agate]

Canberra's are fine looking ships and Melbourne best girl

[eternal veldt]

Was so looking forward to the Majestic batch

[desert agate]

Wallaby go vroom

[eternal veldt]

Immense disappointment

[maiden citrus]

wallabies are omega poggers

[desert agate]

Put an HMS in front of that and you have a new capital ship name

[eternal veldt]

Sorry sir, I seize claim to that title

Not even the British empire can contest me on that one

[desert agate]

[maiden citrus]

(he was forced to witness Melbourne's retirement)

[desert agate]

[shrewd pecan]

flip the image to add insult to injury

[eternal veldt]

I still remember a wild roo looking me right in the face

Thank fuck he's eating grass

[desert agate]

Lmao don't piss off skip

[maiden citrus]

(he was forced to witness Melbourne's retirement)*

[shrewd pecan]

eh close enough

[eternal veldt]

I'm literally just passing by

[desert agate]

He'll fuck you up

[manic latch]

At long last

[eternal veldt]

Im aware, lol

Dont want to get kicked

[spring briar]

kremlin I will rip your kneecaps out

[eternal veldt]

Could be worse though, cassowaries

[desert agate]

Wholesome

[eternal veldt]

One literally stared daggers at me for literally blowing my nose

[shrewd pecan]

sacrifice his kneecaps

[eternal veldt]

Guess it's a crime in bird culture

[desert agate]

Yeah but you never find them in the wild

[remote monolith]

reminder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dcQO6Zb8Eg

[eternal veldt]

The only thing between that chonker and me was a flimsy wired fence

[spring briar]

fucking dinosaur

[eternal veldt]

[remote monolith]

these mfs emits unholy sounds that wouldn't be out of character for a JP raptor to pull off

[desert agate]

I read JP as in Japan server and got confused for a minute

[spring briar]

https://tenor.com/view/jurassic-dinosaur-raptor-scary-reptiles-gif-12677951

[eternal veldt]

Are they not descendants of those?

[remote monolith]

although unfortunately actual maniraptorans probably can't do these sounds and instead kinda sorta hiss like a crocodile

[remote monolith]

very closely related branch

[shrewd pecan]

I have ever brought up like the decade long period between 1957-1967 where people kept running over or encountering Kangaroos here in Minnesota

https://power96radio.com/what-happened-to-minnesotas-phantom-kangaroos/ (best article I can find for it sadly)

[maiden citrus]

'dinosaurs being closely related to birds and having feathers makes them less scary and cool'

pardon me?

[eternal veldt]

I thought that was a horse

[shrewd pecan]

at somepoint a bunch of Kangaroos got loose in Minnesota and managed to survive for quite awhile

[fierce sparrow]

then there is the recent fossilized Trex scales found in China.
Of all places...

[maiden citrus]

correct

[spring briar]

not a Trex

[remote monolith]

ah yes, terror birds, the 10 feet tall death machines that unlike Gastornis are actually meat-eating

[spring briar]

just a related species

[fierce sparrow]

I'm talking about not all dinosaurs have feathers..
Something that bothered alot for Archaeologist

[spring briar]

most did

[desert agate]

Lmfao onya skip

[maiden citrus]

yeah not all did, skin imprints are found on some and are reliable

just I don't get the stigma when we actually have animals that are giant birds that have feathers that are known publically and are scary

[manic latch]

Do you think PANG will be larger than Type 003? Since she is currently holding the title of largest non US CV in the world

France could try to pass that trophy

[shrewd pecan]

why would they?

[eternal veldt]

Oh, right. Is De Gaulle overdue for replacement?

[shrewd pecan]

PANG as planned is already the same size class

[manic latch]

Yup

Will be nuclear

[fierce sparrow]

De Gaulle CV replacement?

[manic latch]

Single ship

[manic latch]

Yes. PANG project

[shrewd pecan]

I mean Charles De Gaulle is aging

[spring briar]

CdG is still the third largest carrier in the world not counting the smaller USN carriers

[fierce sparrow]

how old? is De Gaulle CV

[eternal veldt]

Name her Foch

[manic latch]

Yes

[eternal veldt]

Do it for tradition's sake

[manic latch]

Gaulle launched in 1994

So will retire in 2040

[spring briar]

Foch should've been allowed to march on berlin by force...

ok ignore what I just said

[manic latch]

Nah Foch is bad name

Open to jokes

Like big focher

[spring briar]

so?

[manic latch]

Name something cool

[desert agate]

petain

[manic latch]

Maybe Macron will decide it

[eternal veldt]

I'm not going to lie... That latest CV?

[shrewd pecan]

just give it Charles De Gaulle's original name

Richelieu

[spring briar]

why would you name a carrier smth cool
you afraid to lose prestige or smth?

[manic latch]

[eternal veldt]

If you pronounce the name in Cantonese, it's extremely suspect to derogatory nicknames

[fierce sparrow]

Bring back Richelieu... as a CV

[eternal veldt]

Fook gin

Do I need to say more?

[manic latch]

Names are important man. Foch is just weird

[shrewd pecan]

???

[manic latch]

Napoleon

[spring briar]

no