history

[somber knoll]

The Porsche 911 of warships

[strong plank]

I love the stern crane that just extends into nothingness

[eternal veldt]

Front heaviness: yes

Seaworthiness: very no

Verdict: 1 ply Toilet paper

[dapper parcel]

imagine the steam piping needed between the boiler and turbine

[alpine onyx]

With how the shafts exit the ship the turbines gotta be somewhere between the turre trees

Hooray for c r e a t i v e internal layout

[eternal veldt]

Run the steam pipes through the turret barbettes

I'm sure nothing can go wrong

[dusty kraken]

Use the barrels as funnels

Iz big brain time

[delicate beacon]

What if it's Diesel Electric

[tough quail]

im very keen on hearing the porsche comparison here

[eternal veldt]

@spiral cedar @alpine onyx your thoughts on this argument?

Comments were pretty spicy, some saying that it's Okun's fault for this "fallacy".

[alpine onyx]

wrong armor values aside, there are a few correct points they make, but also plenty of wrongs

[frigid karma]

if you're only planning to go up against convoy escorts though, building a ship which can resist citadel penetrations by BB shells at close range but can sink to non-citadel penetrations seems questionable

as the historically accurate naval warfare simulator world of warships demonstrates, Bismarcks can quickly sink to concentrated cruiser HE spam

[alpine onyx]

Bismarcks weren't made to go convoy raiding, that is one of the more persistent myths

[frigid karma]

really?

maybe not at the time of their design

but by the late 1930s surely the germans realized they weren't going to be starting major fleet battles with the british

[alpine onyx]

both BB generations were not designed with the intention of sending them against the UK

but to send them either against France or towards the east (Poland, USSR)

in the illusion that the UK would sit idly by

when they got their wake up call they started their fever dream Z Plan to somewhat get onto the UK's level

anyway, that txt file broken down:
"Germany was also well aware of emerging trends in naval technology around the world." - correct
"Germany was well aware of the trend towards inclining the armored belt to improve relative armor thickness in other Navies. However, they settled on the simpler vertical belt due to ease of maintenance and easier construction." - semi correct, they also wanted a splinter protected waterline on top of that (and considered decapping schemes for that reason)
[second shell-stopping layer is the turtleback] - correct
"In effect, the shell would have to penetrate some 640mm of armor to penetrate the vitals!" - abso- fucking - lutely not
[upper belt vs BB grade shells] - idk, could be, but shouldn't really affect much
"In addition, the upper belt also provided the benefit of armoring more of the hull against light and medium calibre guns. This was an important benefit considering the Bismarck class was expected to tangle with enemy destroyers and cruisers regularly." - correct
"The last major layer of armor was the upper deck that capped the top of the hull. Just like the upper belt, it was not intended to defeat incoming projectiles outright. Rather, it was intended to reduce their effectiveness, allowing the main armor deck to more easily defeat them." - unless it jaws the projectile into a more favorable angle allowing the penetration of the deck, so
[upper deck vs bombs] - judging by some damage reports from TP, that might actually hold some truth, but need to verify with proper damage mapping at some point
"Was the system effective? History would suggest that it was. The Bismarck class proved difficult nuts to crack. Of course, like anything else, the German armor system was a trade-off." - ahaha no

[spring briar]

[alpine onyx]

some claims I cannot really verify, but overall I schmell some fanboiism

[spring briar]

Zwei nuts

[alpine onyx]

🌰 🌰

[spring briar]

POV: you’re witnessing the attack on mers el kebir

[tough quail]

i hate the fact this is legitimately upsetting to me

[spring briar]

[dusty kraken]

Is mers el kebir just order 66 for the french

[delicate beacon]

Nah, Britain was never not expected to betray.

[spring briar]

I mean the brits only sank a bb and a minelayer

[tepid mulch]

https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/images-8/842_02_2.jpg

[dusty kraken]

Well the jedi didnt expect the clones to betray them

[tepid mulch]

Quetzalcoatl being drunk af

Had too much drink and did stuff that made him cross the Atlantic and turn himself into the sun

[spring briar]

realistically, expecting the british to betray you is the best course of action

[dusty kraken]

Oh fuck my engish is bad

[spring briar]

HMS Indomitable detonating the aft magazines of the Seydlitz, which causes the Germans to take safety precautions, eventually saving most of their ships at Jutland while the Bitish that did not experience such a magazine detonation lost 3 battlecruisers
ALSO HMS Indomitable being the first BC to arrive at the Dardanelles to shell turkish coastal batteries ahead of the battleships, giving the turks ample time to assess the situation and lay mines in the dardanells which sink 3 battleships
HMS Indomitable is the root cause of pain in the universe I tell you

[spiral cedar]

Mostly agree with Sirene, but I’ll provide my own commentary as well

One of the most annoyingly persistent myths in the world of naval history concerns the armor scheme of the Bismarck class.
No disagreement here.

This is a major fallacy.  ```
Certainly an oversimplification.
```The reality of the matter is that Germany was hard at work during the interwar years. Despite restrictions imposed on them, Germany managed to carry out extensive development of naval armor and weapons through companies and other fronts. In fact, they conducted so many clandestine tests, you could even make the argument that they did more development than the US, UK, or France. ```
“More development” isn’t really true. They did do testing, but several other navies just had more hulks to sink and bomb, which is an inherent advantage.

The armor of the Bismarck class can be broken down into four major components. We will briefly look at each section to see how they functioned as a whole. 

The Main Armored Belt

The Bismarck class was protected by a main armored belt of 320mm thickness. The belt was attached directly to the outside of the hull in a vertical (Non-inclined) fashion. Germany was well aware of the trend towards inclining the armored belt to improve relative armor thickness in other Navies. However, they settled on the simpler vertical belt due to ease of maintenance and easier construction.

This armor was immune to light and medium calibre naval guns. However, due to its relatively modest thickness (compared to other dreadnoughts), the heavy calibre guns of other battleships could penetrate the main armor belt of the Bismarck class relatively easily. However, this was not seen as a disadvantage as a second layer of armor behind the belt would then defeat any projectiles that managed to penetrate the main belt. This second layer of armor was the main armored deck.```
Not much particularly objectionable here. Could note some slight outward angling following the hull abreast some turrets, but that’s just nitpicking.

The main armor deck of the Bismarck class was 80mm to 100mm in thickness along the central portion. However, the outer edges of the armor deck sloped down to meet the bottom edge of the belt armor. This layout is popularly known (Though not officially) today as turtle deck or turtleback armor.```
Well, the “central portion” over magazines varied between Bismarck and Tirpitz, but technically yes, across the *entire class* the main armor deck did vary over that range. Again, doesn’t really change the overall picture.
```These sloped portions of armor were 110mm to 120mm in thickness. While not particularly impressive, they were well sloped at about 22 degrees. This produced a tremendous relative armor thickness.

An incoming shell hitting the hull at 0 degrees (Essentially point-blank range) would have to penetrate the 320mm armor belt. If it succeeded in doing so, the sloped armor deck would then present a layer of armor with a relative armor thickness (120mm at 22 degrees) of 320mm! In effect, the shell would have to penetrate some 640mm of armor to penetrate the vitals!```
Of course, the 22 degree sloped portion is covering primarily the machinery, which has 110 mm thickness, not 120 mm. The 120 mm portion is abreast the magazines, which (due to the narrowing hull) is, for most of its length, angled to a lesser degree. So a bit of generous “best case” cherry picking here with numbers. And that’s not to mention that spaced armor simply does not add together in “effective thickness” in a uniform way for all shells—some will deal with spaced arrays better than others. And, of course, Wh (homogeneous armor) resists penetration in an inherently different way from KC n/A (facehardened armor), which makes any attempt to come up with a single number for “effective thickness” absurd from the outset (thanks, wart hunder).

Of course, as ranges increase and the shell approaches at a greater angle, the relative armor thickness of the armor deck diminishes. However, the relative thickness of the main belt increases in compensation.
True, which is a major factor in the relative range-insensitivity of the sloped deck arrangement.
Another factor at play is that a shell penetrating the main belt is also severely reduced in its ability to penetrate armor. Velocity has been slowed, yaw has been induced in the shell, and its cap has likely been deformed. Altogether, this reduces the shell’s ability to penetrate armor, giving the armor deck a greater chance to resist it entirely.
This comes up several times, but cap “deformation” is a weird way to phrase it. This is a hard, brittle cap striking a hard, brittle face—the cap should be shattering if hitting such thick armor!

A second armor belt of 145mm thickness was mounted on top of the main belt, continuing all the way to the top of the hull. This secondary belt is often criticized as being another carryover from the medium armor used by dreadnoughts of World War 1. However, this armor belt was chosen by German designers for a different reason.

This armor was primarily chosen to help enhance projection against long-range gunfire and bombs. Projectiles striking this belt would be reduced by the same reasons we discussed in the previous section (Velocity slowed, yaw induced, cap deformed). This meant that the main armor deck would have a better chance of defeating any projectiles that managed to penetrate the upper belt```
This is not an inherently convincing argument. That weight could instead have gone to the main armored deck, after all, which *directly* improves resistance to plunging fire. You’d have to provide some demonstration of why you think this scheme is *more* efficient—and of course, none is provided. Also note—how does the upper belt help the deck resist *bombs*? Aside from a small fraction of bombs coming at an angle that strike the upper belt first, this is a pretty nonsensical argument (one could also argue that it would be equally likely to deflect some bombs that would otherwise pass through the ship back into the upper hull!). And of course, the upper belt does nothing against plunging fire coming from ahead or astern, which would be most likely to be hit while trying to open or close the range—aka when you’re most likely at long range, chasing or fleeing. I’m surprised no mention of the ability to save some barbette weight was mentioned—arguably not more efficient than a single thick barbette overall, but it is a real use of the upper belt.

In addition, the upper belt also provided the benefit of armoring more of the hull against light and medium calibre guns. This was an important benefit considering the Bismarck class was expected to tangle with enemy destroyers and cruisers regularly.
No objection here, though one could also point out that it also reduces the chance of passthrough large-caliber hits slightly. Tradeoffs.

The last major layer of armor was the upper deck that capped the top of the hull. Just like the upper belt, it was not intended to defeat incoming projectiles outright. Rather, it was intended to reduce their effectiveness, allowing the main armor deck to more easily defeat them.

Just like the upper deck, the upper belt did have the benefit of enhancing protection against light weaponry. It was sufficient to protect the ship from light bombs, shrapnel, and strafing attacks by enemy aircraft.```
All this is true of basically all other battleships of the period. No mention of why Bismarck’s scheme was unique—it was uniquely thick (and unusually good at deflecting shells downward, which can be rather detrimental).

The secret to the armor system of the Bismarck class was multiple layers of armor, each designed to perform a role in addition to supporting the others.

Any projectile striking the Bismarck class would have to penetrate  two of these layers. Close-range gunfire would have to penetrate the belt and then the main deck. Long range gunfire would have to penetrate the upper belt or upper deck and then contend with the main deck. Aircraft bombs would have to penetrate the upper deck before the main deck.
 
It was an intricate armor system not found on other battleships (With the possible exception of the Littorio class). Germany was well aware of "All or Nothing" Armor. They simply discounted it and went in an entirely different direction. ```
Not found on other battleships…except for most of them made in the 20th century. I can only assume “other battleships” actually means “other fast battleships,” but even then it’s not true—everyone has the upper deck, and several ships (e.g. Nagato, Richelieu) had a sloped deck behind the belt as well. One could argue it was better implemented on the Bismarcks (which would vary on an area-by-area basis), but that’s not the claim being made here. Also, strangely, excludes the Scharnhorsts…

Was the system effective? History would suggest that it was. The Bismarck class proved difficult nuts to crack. Of course, like anything else, the German armor system was a trade-off.
History would suggests that fast battleships in general were “difficult nuts to crack.” This claim could be better improved by specifying against what particular types of attack the claim is meant, else one can easily point to the various failures of the system. I also point out that armor is far from the only factor in overall ship durability, so using the latter to demonstrate the “effectiveness” of the former is rather questionable, logically speaking.
Germany achieved a citadel that was almost impossible to penetrate in many situations. However, they had to sacrifice the overall volume of the citadel to achieve this. This could have disastrous repercussions in certain situations. The most notable was that the small citadel did not provide enough buoyancy to support the ship in the event of severe flooding. This was in stark contrast to the US and UK where the Citadel could keep the ship afloat even with the stern and bow completely flooded. You could theoretically sink the Bismarck class without ever actually penetrating her citadel.
“Many situations” is both technically true and rather misleading. Against certain types of attack, along certain paths into the ship, yes. But the citadel could be, and repeatedly was, compromised by weapons available to Germany’s enemies. I am also, personally, of the opinion that the “buoyant even with flooded ends” metric is nothing more than a useful design “rule of thumb” with little bearing on realistic combat consequences—glossing over the question of whether it was a design requirement by the nations mentioned above, it’s a metric that really should not govern how we evaluate ship survivability, except in extreme cases.

Overall, for the environment that the Bismarck class was supposed to operate in, the armor system was sound. German designers continued tweaking the system for the subsequent H-class, further enhancing it.
Yes, though “enhancing” does come with an asterisk. Still, just a quibble.
The system was not outdated or ineffective compared to other battleship armor layouts, it was just different.
Again, a failure of specificity. I agree that “outdated” is a bad metric—sometimes ideas persist because they’re good—but “ineffective” really is a question of which particular means of attack one is looking at. Bismarck has advantages in some, but disadvantages in others, and this essay largely ignores the most salient disadvantages in order to present the lukewarm take that “an armor scheme that focused on one specific route of attack is better than average at defending against that route of attack,” possibly to the detriment of other areas.

[spiral cedar]

blaming Okun while using no original analysis beyond “additive LOS thickness is a perfectly valid way to measure armor resistance, especially for spaced armor schemes, right!”

6/10 apply yourself

[spring briar]

chad angled belts adding their angle to the fall of shot angle, thus drastically diminishing the ability of the incoming shell to penetrate despite maybe being capable of penetrating the same nominal armor thickness in a 0° obliquity shot

[spiral cedar]

Also, Okun would probably agree with a decent chunk of what’s here. But because he has the gall to say that, perhaps, the upper deck is a bit too thick? Why, what a purveyor of misinformation! I, mister 9th grade math expert, know far better!

🥱

I’m somewhat disappointed that I cut short a gaming session with friends for this

I’d say it’s fit for an average forum, and above Quoraposting

But that’s about it

[spring briar]

jaba you don't want to go into the fact that any shell penetrating the main belt will have its angle compared to the turtleback slope made less oblique and thus more suited to penetrate?

[spiral cedar]

I mean, that’s not technically true, only for certain impact scenarios

At close range, for instance, there’s effectively no deflection during perforation of the main belt

[spring briar]

well yes, it scales with angle of impact

[spiral cedar]

And broadly speaking, a descending shell will deflect closer to the horizontal after penetrating, which means a steeper angle when striking the sloped deck

[spring briar]

this, no?

[spiral cedar]

Shells deflect toward the normal line

(Assuming they completely penetrate)

[spring briar]

towards the normal of the armor they penetrate?

so you're saying this is more correct?

[spiral cedar]

Yes

[spring briar]

for long shells maybe

[spiral cedar]

26000 yds - 1617 fps, 22.08 deg - 909 fps, 19.61 deg

[spring briar]

you got some simulations to show the difference between impact angle and exit angle

oh nvm

and you're sure this reflects reality?

[spiral cedar]

Well, think about it

In an oblique impact, the side of the nose that strikes first will face a greater resistive force than the side still contacting air

So there will be a net torque that turns the shell inward, towards the normal

[spring briar]

I'd say that force would push the shell away from the normal tbh

as you can see on penetration simulations for tanks against shells

then, adiabatic shear starts to weaken the armor below the nose of the shell towards the normal of the armor

[spiral cedar]

I believe it's different for facehardened armors, as the face is effectively immobile during penetration

[spring briar]

possibly?

idk i'd have to see an example

I'll look into armor penetration tests on FH armor

that being said I don't think naval shell deflect that much to make a huge difference

[eternal veldt]

Sorry for disrupting your session, jaba.

[spiral cedar]

No worries

[spring briar]

[eternal veldt]

I figured the claims here were bold enough, and without sources, might be off.

[spiral cedar]

Most aren't actually that bold

Just more nuanced versions of the same common misconceptions, from a different angle

(The editor’s note refers to a different, preceding statement)

[spring briar]

I do agree with this in case of a small angle of impact yes

since the geometry will aid in this case

but starting at what.. 20 ish degrees your shell will experience much more force on the nose pushing it away from the normal

this is especially effective against SAP as the nose tends to crush a lot more, dragging the rest of the shell with it

[maiden citrus]

analysis sins rating; regurgitation

[spiral cedar]

Here’s the passage from Ballistics Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition on ogival projectiles

[spring briar]

yes, there is a balance between the nose force and forehead force
but since we now know about adiabatic shear, the nose force generally affect the shell more

(in case of oblique hit)

[spiral cedar]

This book has Matlab integration

It’s not an old book

[spring briar]

if it doesn't include the effect it doesn't really matter

[spring briar]

neat

but the consensus is

this for high obliquity

this for low obliquity

[maiden citrus]

we're getting gritty

[spiral cedar]

And we're talking belt hits on a vertical plate at sufficiently high velocities above the NBL to penetrate another layer of armor behind?

That's low obliquity, well above NBL

AKA the regime I've been discussing

[spiral cedar]

(continuation)

[spring briar]

can you send the link to the page so I can look at it further?

[spiral cedar]

Page 378 of the 3rd Edition

[spring briar]

by carlucci and jacobson?

[spiral cedar]

Ye

[spring briar]

do their observations match up with the facehard data?

[spiral cedar]

Haven’t compared in any depth

[spring briar]

I'd be willing to draw some comparisons but I don't know if it holds up on that scale

this asks for real life result analysis

I'm not saying I don't believe in normalisation

I just don't think it's as big of a help as some people tend to think

you know the gist

[spiral cedar]

If your shell is doing that, it’s not penetrating anything else anyway

aka not in the regime I’m worried about

[spring briar]

you want to know what happens if smth like bismarck is shot at very close range with a gun that has a NBL much higher than the belt thickness?

[maiden citrus]

nice argument, however, my armor cannot be penetrated

[spring briar]

reveals quantum tunnelling shell developed by Jaba and I

[humble mulch]

revels quantum hotdog hardening invented by Maka

[spring briar]

the regime you're worried about seems exceedingly rare

[spiral cedar]

Very slow?

[maiden citrus]

I was typing something dumb but you know what, yeah, I reveal hot dogs that harden in response to proton trauma

[spiral cedar]

The regime where the shell has a chance to penetrate the sloped deck?

[spring briar]

even after it penetrated the main belt?

[spiral cedar]

If the obliquity is too high, or the residual velocity too low, then the sloped deck isn’t threatened by penetration

So the low obliquity, high residual velocity regime is what matters

[spring briar]

yes

I know, but I think that that is something you will only get with sub 5 km range penetration with high caliber shells... oh wait RODNEY

I would love to aid in this endeavour after I finish university and get the chance to download FH

[maiden citrus]

then I can tune my armor using the input of two facehard users

[spiral cedar]

Just pulling up a random gun, Nugget’s Type 91s are falling at 21.77 deg at 25k yards

[spiral cedar]

Wish Dahlgren had public logs of its tests…

Wonder of any of the g.kdos files have any

[spring briar]

I'm just inclined to believe those real tests more since they are

well

real

[spiral cedar]

Bah

Don't let reality get in the way of a good theory

[spring briar]

I theorise that a shell made from pure tungsten will rip out my rifling

[alpine onyx]

@spiral cedar Of course, the 22 degree sloped portion is covering primarily the machinery, which has 110 mm thickness, not 120 mm. The 120 mm portion is abreast the magazines, which (due to the narrowing hull) is, for most of its length, angled to a lesser degree.
Quick note on that, all of Bismarck's (and presumably TP's) turtleback was 110mm. There was no 120mm there

[spiral cedar]

See

I remember you telling me that

But I searched for it in Discord to confirm

And couldn't find it

So I assumed it was for Scharnhorst only instead

[alpine onyx]

hol on I'll send you the entire blueprint

[desert agate]

Inside Amiens Notre Dame

[desert agate]

Genuinely didn't realise just how much the French actually cared

[alpine onyx]

or the relevant portions cut and skillfully encircled

also semi-visible on the first pic, the deck armor above the magazines was only 95mm, not 100mm

[spring briar]

NIETVERBINDUNGEN

[alpine onyx]

[spring briar]

[alpine onyx]

also while at it to make it easier to find when needed, the H-class also had a uniform turtledeck thickness (in her case 120mm), with the main difference being that the entire horizontal deck was 100mm

This 120mm horizontal and 150mm turtledeck at the magazine nonsense that's floating around is

[spiral cedar]

Makes it easier for me

I’m glad 10” deck North Carolina got fixed a lot faster

[alpine onyx]

meanwhile Scharnhorst with most of her horitzontal deck being 105mm

[spiral cedar]

?

[alpine onyx]

Scharnhorst has better anti-AP bomb protection than Bismarck and can somewhat hold up against the H-class, despite being much smoler

She has all the reason to look down on them in disgust

[spring briar]

dunkek looking down

all the time

[spiral cedar]

In principle

Given the Germans just scaled up and down the same L/4,4 shell design

It should be possible to determine the expected ballistic coefficients of a German 35.5cm shell right

[alpine onyx]

I like where you are going

and yes, should be possible

[spiral cedar]

The internal ballistics would be a black box but I’m sure someone could come up with a reasonable range of MVs

[alpine onyx]

with the ballistic curves for all German naval guns in service being readily available, I can try and guesstimate some stuff

Praise GkdS

[spring briar]

[spiral cedar]

No rush, it’s 4 AM here

[alpine onyx]

heh, I'm not home anyway and am not gonna start some spreadsheet formula hell on this 12" tablet

[delicate beacon]

I am confused, should I connect them or should I not?

[alpine onyx]

You must verbinden them, but with a Niet!

Hurry!

[delicate beacon]

I must connect them, with a not.

I shall not connect them asap

[fleet summit]

I wonder who sunk the yamato

[delicate beacon]

It was a combined effort.

[eternal veldt]

A combined effort of around 400 planes from 8 US carriers.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/OOB_WWII_Pacific/OOB_WWII_Final_Sortie.php

[tepid mulch]

https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/images-6/621_15_2.jpg

The Aztec gamer god, Macuilxochitl

Literally Five Flowers because that's his very own date

You pray to him, give him food and stuff for good RNG when gambling

Are professional gamblers still a thing today?

[fleet summit]

Sounds like America to me

[maiden citrus]

who I send hot dogs to to roll Nevadas

[humble mulch]

Yes professional gambling is very much a decently big thing in the US

[spring briar]

The world if Australia and New Zealand had funded a Lion class bc instead of an Indomitable class

[eternal veldt]

Indomitable is an Invincible class, Riche

Australia and NZ are both Indefatigables

and honestly, the big cats are just prone to explosions

[spring briar]

oh shit

my brain

well you get what I'm saying

[delicate beacon]

Indomitable, Invincible, Indefatigable.
All French ship names anyway.

[spring briar]

imagine coming up with original names

[eternal veldt]

Funny, the Dutch also used Hercules, Mars and Jupiter.

Not original, smh.

[spring briar]

we used a couple greek names

smh

even france is a culprit

[manic latch]

Hercules, Mars, Jupiter

Greek

Ok Roman

[spring briar]

no not those names 5head

[manic latch]

Give example

[spring briar]

triton

[manic latch]

[eternal veldt]

You've heard of Dido

but what about Didon? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Didon

[tepid mulch]

Ah

Nice

[spring briar]

stop capturing ships

[tepid mulch]

I will literally impress you

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/soldier-bucket-running-away-expiration-date-inhuman-thoughts-gif-21691393

[eternal veldt]

Also, what was it again? Pallas?

Andromaque was also a popular name.

Same for Atalante and Arethuse.

[delicate beacon]

🇳🇱

[tepid mulch]

When are we getting another ship named Droits de l'Homme

[manic latch]

Kinda shame Helenic navy never rise to its ancient level

Would be interesting to see Greek aesthetic BBs

[spring briar]

Orion too

[delicate beacon]

Ship of the MINE

[spring briar]

Achille

Ajax

[eternal veldt]

nice argument, unfortunately

[spring briar]

Piet Hein too

[tepid mulch]

Western Europe trying not to name their ship after Greek heroes

[spring briar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Piet_Hein_(1812)

[eternal veldt]

Ah yes,Temeraires

[delicate beacon]

We fortunately have a Germano-Nordic pantheon to name our ships after.

[spring briar]

🇳🇱

[eternal veldt]

mass production 74s

[tepid mulch]

My favorite name of the bunch would be

Tyrannicide

[eternal veldt]

Renommee is a gud name

[tepid mulch]

Heavy metal shit

[spring briar]

Pluton class 5head

improved Temeraires

[eternal veldt]

also extremely good looking

[spring briar]

best flag

[manic latch]

Haha France white flag

[spring briar]

tfw you're so powerful you use the actual white flag

[desert agate]

My dream

[spring briar]

oh right we had to return all the ships we captured after the napoleonic wars

[eternal veldt]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Héros_(1801) When you think you are the the protagonist

[desert agate]

Unironically if we'd bought a Tiger I doubt we'd have been so willing to get rid of it in the 20s

[eternal veldt]

I like how every fucking page of the Temeraire is literally just the scale model of the Achille

[tepid mulch]

But they are the protagonist

According to themselves

[eternal veldt]

ironically, the one that fucking blew itself up at Trafalgar

[desert agate]

Since there was a fair amount of resistance to losing Australia, even if it was somewhat impractical to have kept her

But if she was a Tiger

[tepid mulch]

Proof that Achilles is indeed the best Greek hero of the Trojan War

[spring briar]

[eternal veldt]

Proposal: Buy Haruna off the Japanese

[desert agate]

Then most arguments for getting rid of her would be null and void

[eternal veldt]

Australian resistance raised by 150%

[spring briar]

people calling hellenics greeks

[desert agate]

Nutnutnutnut

Put her under a proper flag

[eternal veldt]

Just use a shitty excuse, like trying to "fix" her turret after she had a turret explosion

we have the "technology" for flash proofing

[spring briar]

proposal: boarding action on scharnhorst and gneisenau at Coronel and gift the ships to AU and NZ

[eternal veldt]

and then just seize the ship like the Brits did to the French and Ottoman ships

lorf

[tepid mulch]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-technology-patrick-hung-gif-5567497

[desert agate]

Ok but consider

Force Z fucking steals Yamato

Surely

[spring briar]

why would you want yamato

[eternal veldt]

wait

[desert agate]

Shits n gigs

[eternal veldt]

hang on, where's that joke

[tepid mulch]

Suicidal Poles boards the Bismarck and steals it

[spring briar]

Polish manned Paris vs Bismarck

the battle we deserve

revenge for 1871

[eternal veldt]

I forgot where I saw that thing

[spring briar]

[eternal veldt]

but basically, steal the Yamato

raise a hirohito portrait on the main mast

[desert agate]

It's simple, load the Snake class with Japanese fluent sailors with force Z commandos

[eternal veldt]

there you go, Force Z is now invincible

[desert agate]

Sail into Hashirajima

And boom

1 battleship

[eternal veldt]

Sail right into Sagami Bay with the portrait

While someone drives a truck into Moscow

gg boys, we did it, we won the Pacific war

[desert agate]

They'd never suspect an enemy of the emperor to have the portrait of the emperor aboard

[desert agate]

https://tenor.com/view/growing-old-getting-old-grow-old-old-man-becoming-old-gif-17885988

How many years has it been

[eternal veldt]

at least 5

[manic latch]

[desert agate]

I've been subscribed to ISP since he was at 2k

[spring briar]

idea
prevent the british from taking india in the 9 years war
the british empire:

https://tenor.com/view/out-disappear-bye-vanished-gif-4932063

and germany

because no hannoverian dynasty

[manic latch]

English speaking population of India -80%.

[spring briar]

french indian cuisine time

https://tenor.com/view/gordon-ramsay-delicious-steak-gif-7676990

[manic latch]

Ironic it would reduce phone scam percentage

[desert agate]

But Indians are good at cricket

And they make good competition with us

Unlike the English

[manic latch]

Want to try their food one day

[chilly osprey]

as going to make a joke, Spon beat me to it

[desert agate]

Indian good is great

[manic latch]

India has more T90 than all ex Soviet countries combined

[spring briar]

can you imagine the amount of deforestation caused by the royal navy

[manic latch]

Well Richy

You also make forests

For future investment no?

[spring briar]

ok where are the british forests then

[humble mulch]

Fuck you I'm taking my African Teak and you cannot stop me

[eternal veldt]

I mean, the French isn't exactly low on the tree count

[humble mulch]

Britian has forests
I think

[desert agate]

Gimme a home among the gum trees

[humble mulch]

[manic latch]

Canada

[spring briar]

[desert agate]

With lots of plumb trees

[spring briar]

french canada
french australia
french india
french south africa
french new zealand

[desert agate]

A sheep or two a Ka-kangaroo a clothesline out the back

[humble mulch]

I don't think they would be any better tho Richy

[eternal veldt]

Also, jesus christ, I can't imagine the sight of someone drinking french wine while eating naan bread

[humble mulch]

Lmao

[eternal veldt]

not like it's any better with tea

[desert agate]

Verandah out the front and an ooold rocking chair

[delicate beacon]

Dutch Nova Holland, Dutch Nova Zeeland

[desert agate]

Lmfao French South Africa

[spring briar]

franco dutch super alliance

[manic latch]

Gifting Soyuz highest quality wood for her library room and tables

[desert agate]

Good lord Cape Town would be a warzone

[eternal veldt]

That's fine and dandy until you need to fireproof your ship

and the person in charge is on Jun'you's level of strictness

[manic latch]

Fireproof books?

Imagine a warship with no book inside

Yikes

[spring briar]

remember that time France and Britain considered becoming one country

now that would've been hell

[manic latch]

EU

[eternal veldt]

I mean more like the shelves and tables

[desert agate]

They considered it a few times actually

[eternal veldt]

Those are going to be gone

[manic latch]

[desert agate]

Hell wasn't that what half the hundred years war was about

[spring briar]

ok britain you get the sea
we hold the land
india holds our gold

lesgo

[eternal veldt]

Also, watch as Soyuz gets all her portholes blanked out like the IJN

no more officer luxury

[desert agate]

The hundred years war was basically a civil war

[eternal veldt]

No more beds either, just a rug

[manic latch]

[desert agate]

Franco-British alliance in WW1

[eternal veldt]

that you have to store away in the proper bulkhead every time general quarters is sounded

[spring briar]

the british started the hundred years war by attacking a peaceful flemish fishing village to provoke france

glad they lost

karma

[eternal veldt]

French British alliance

coming to you soon: HMS Hastings

[spring briar]

hms jemmappes

[manic latch]

Loved that village that much huh

[eternal veldt]

But then again, HMS Marshal Ney is a thing

[manic latch]

Results in destruction of more villages

[spring briar]

tfw you're such a chad the enemy names a ship after you

cope in eternity russia

your centre is still breached

[desert agate]

Hate the British love the French simple as

[spring briar]

love both and hate both when it suits you or hate them if you're a standard american

[eternal veldt]

But, conversely, the problem

[manic latch]

[eternal veldt]

HMS Alsace, HMS Dunkerque

[spring briar]

silver is not a standard american

[desert agate]

Silver isn't American though

[eternal veldt]

or French Battleship Lyon Lion

[spring briar]

silver is not?

is he phillipino?

[eternal veldt]

I'm a Chinese living in Hong Kong

[desert agate]

Lmfao

[spring briar]

I'm not gonna say close enough but

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

that explains a lot actually

[eternal veldt]

[spring briar]

I thought you were american/japanese

[eternal veldt]

shi shi shi shi shi

[manic latch]

I thought Silver was German

[desert agate]

Lmfao

[spring briar]

I don't even know what I am

[manic latch]

You are Belgian

[eternal veldt]

Nein, ich bin Chinesisch.

[desert agate]

I come from a land down under

[spring briar]

AUS people when NZ funds a british bc

https://tenor.com/view/anime-angry-gif-22001303

[maiden citrus]

🇺🇸 🍔

[spring briar]

maka and I share a bond through fries and hot dogs

[maiden citrus]

indeed

I even pinged you for food pics

we're all in

[alpine onyx]

Nationality bingo in this channel

[spring briar]

I saw the rolls

sirene is westphalian

[maiden citrus]

🥐

[alpine onyx]

We are missing a Swede, to spread the word of hand-crafted Bofors

[spring briar]

tfw he turns out to be a saab shill

[alpine onyx]

and not westphalia, I come from the land of good cider

[maiden citrus]

my tenant was a sweede

[manic latch]

Of course it will

[spring briar]

which is?

[desert agate]

Not like they can afford a navy

[alpine onyx]

Hesse

[spring briar]

oh I was actually gonna say hessian

[desert agate]

although we shouldn't have let them escape annexation

[eternal veldt]

Ngl, kinda surprised people think Im American

[spring briar]

well

[desert agate]

If we managed to annex NZ the RAN could have afford 1.5 battlecruisers

[eternal veldt]

But I guess I have the NA tag on WoWS

[spring briar]

you and your usn camouflage knowledge

[alpine onyx]

NA tag = USA

[desert agate]

Thats just cos he likes painting models

[eternal veldt]

But you see me go on about British antifouling spiel 24/7

[maiden citrus]

knows camo so well I had him make me two models to buy from him

[desert agate]

And the USN actually standardises things

[dapper parcel]

[spring briar]

and you ardwar

[maiden citrus]

eternally grateful

[spring briar]

where are you from

[dapper parcel]

wanna guess?

[manic latch]

Japan

[tepid mulch]

Somewhere on Earth

[desert agate]

South Africa

Gimme your boerwors boy

[eternal veldt]

Indonesia for Ard?

[spring briar]

Botswana

[eternal veldt]

I think I know you from elsewhere.

[dapper parcel]

Oh hey, fellow stuck-in-NA-server-somehow

[eternal veldt]

Cruiser_Haguro, was it?

[manic latch]

ArdWar likes west. So somewhere with west influence

I go with Japan

[dapper parcel]

Oh wait, lmfao

[tepid mulch]

Canada

[unborn wyvern]

No that's me

[tepid mulch]

Ok, he's not Canadian

[manic latch]

Nah Ard looks Asian

[tepid mulch]

Which side of Asia

[manic latch]

Phillippenes?

[tepid mulch]

Hell or Super Hell

[manic latch]

Hmm

[dapper parcel]

somewhat hell

[desert agate]

Maybe I should hop back on the Wows server

[tepid mulch]

Well I guess he's from Taiwan

[desert agate]

Latin America?

Last time I went on Wows I had to deal with Maine tho

That wasn't fun

[eternal veldt]

Did my memory fail me and it wasnt Indonesia

[desert agate]

Thailand

[dapper parcel]

I'm Indonesian

[tepid mulch]

Greetings fellow Indomien

[eternal veldt]

Gottem

[desert agate]

So many Indonesians in this channel frfr

[tepid mulch]

How's coping with the price hike of soy sauce

[eternal veldt]

And about this, not just online, even IRL

Go to the Queensland Maritime Museum, talk to staff

[desert agate]

Spent too much time in the West boy

[eternal veldt]

"Are you from the US?"

[dapper parcel]

All sambal no sauce ftw

[maiden citrus]

I have managed to keep that maryland case closed to this day, so it's spotless

[delicate beacon]

Indonesians in this chat

[tepid mulch]

Just like my brother lmao

[eternal veldt]

Run

[desert agate]

Tbf the American accent is pretty standard for most people who speak good English

[desert agate]

They're coming for you

Sang run

[delicate beacon]

*runs*
*falls in a moat because it's all moats here*

[eternal veldt]

Stroopwafels are not going to save you

[maiden citrus]

accent removal

[desert agate]

Oh god oh fuck they're invading West Papua

[spring briar]

I'll help the indo's with the dutchie
belgium is the superior dutch speaking country

[delicate beacon]

But Belgium doesn't even speak Dutch.

[spring briar]

maastricht is mine

[delicate beacon]

I should not say that, Limburg exists.

You can have it.

[spring briar]

proceeds to take all of germany

[delicate beacon]

Hold up now.

[eternal veldt]

Amusingly, I shipped something model related to someone in Britain recently

[delicate beacon]

Don't go conquering Oost-Friesland.

Thanks.

[eternal veldt]

They didn't have an acessory, and only I can buy it dirt cheap locally

Bless the postman.

[delicate beacon]

[tepid mulch]

American States

Best translation

[maiden citrus]

the states union of america

where is the country of example located

[maiden citrus]

glad you're still having fun with it, if I get colorado I complete the set

[delicate beacon]

I came across of Dutch text calling America something with those 3 words and it sounds so much like the Soviet Union I took it.

[delicate beacon]

It's a federation with Explanation at 0'/0', Null Island.

[eternal veldt]

I'd do one for you, but time isn't on my side lately

or energy, rather

[maiden citrus]

that's a mood

[eternal veldt]

Colorado's probably one of my more well researched ships in terms of paint schemes

[spring briar]

USA?
Vaguely constitutional free border crossing autocratic federal state system of north america you mean?

[desert agate]

Canada

[delicate beacon]

Does their national anthem qualify them for the theocratic adjective?

[spring briar]

only if they allow Puerto Rico to become a real state

[delicate beacon]

[spring briar]

seriously, america
please make puerto rico a real state

[desert agate]

I wish we bought one of these in the 60s

We were so close to greatness

[maiden citrus]

puerto rico voted for statehood, they should get it

[desert agate]

Too many voters for [opposing political party]

[dapper parcel]

what happens to "no taxation without representation"

[tepid mulch]

Just tax everyone

[delicate beacon]

Colonialism bad. Anyway look some islands in the pacific.

[tepid mulch]

Commit colonialism

[spring briar]

I hope so

or I will close up the panama canal

[tepid mulch]

Puerto Rico about to get their healthcare revoked

[eternal veldt]

Funny coming from the nation that created "Gekoloniseerd" /s

[maiden citrus]

evergreen baguette

[dapper parcel]

Tbf the current american voting system is so marginal it might breaks democracy if there's new state added

[desert agate]

Haha yeah I hate colonialism so much annexes Papua New Guinea

[spring briar]

https://tenor.com/view/falling-drunk-shocked-surprised-gif-15546336

they got the job done boys

[tepid mulch]

Yay

New locks

Took em like

80 years

[desert agate]

Ahead of schedule for the American construction industry

[spring briar]

the wording is just so aggressive lol

[maiden citrus]

the cancelling of the ready to go montanas have been disastrous

[delicate beacon]

👀

I must know

[eternal veldt]

Stolen generation:

Sorry, just in case it's too touchy

[tepid mulch]

Montana design evolution
Stage 1: Ok, we need a slow battleship that's under 45,000 tons

Stage 2: War's starting so let's get as wild as possible

Stage 3: Panama Canal third locks? Well fuck, let's see all the crazy stuff we can make

[eternal veldt]

I know Aussies now take this shit seriously

[desert agate]

Papua was fine under Australia but in seriousness I support their independence

[dapper parcel]

They should cancel SSN Montana to continue the tradition of the state never quite made it into ship name

[desert agate]

They voted for it

Nuaru on the other hand is fucked

[eternal veldt]

SSN Montana's fund was diverted to fund another Ford

to fulfill the prophecy

[tepid mulch]

Remove Kearsarge from existence to keep the name theme consistent

[eternal veldt]

And speaking of subs, Illinois is

[delicate beacon]

Why was Independence named Amsterdam?

[eternal veldt]

Bottle didn't break on first smash in christening ceremony

[desert agate]

I don't like talking about submarines anymore

[eternal veldt]

aukus

[tepid mulch]

Ok she's gonna die soon

Will oversteer and hit some rocks

[spring briar]

ok boys the bottle didn't break, start over

dismantles 50000 ton BB

[tepid mulch]

The officers are extremely incompetent in handling the situation, forcing the coast guard to come and save them

[eternal veldt]

This is why you weaken the bottle enough first

[tepid mulch]

The captain abandons the ship first

Sounds familiar?

[maiden citrus]

Christen with hot dogs, they are soft

[eternal veldt]

Sub accidents are usually pretty fucking horrific

[spring briar]

you know, the actual reason why bismarck got an atlantic bow was because the bottle broke her first one

[eternal veldt]

Thresher, Kursk

[tepid mulch]

Sink some more

Sink in very shallow waters for maximum funny and tragedy

[spring briar]

Bretagne

[tepid mulch]

What's the color of the Union ironclads during the US Civil War

[desert agate]

Kri Nangalla

[spring briar]

black

[tepid mulch]

US camo man I call upon thee

[maiden citrus]

Based color

[tepid mulch]

Black it is

[spring briar]

I wanna go to africa one day

to see the true origin

[tepid mulch]

Go safari?

Cut off some hands?

[spring briar]

yes I am Belgian after all

[tepid mulch]

Become bald

Shiny ivory head

[desert agate]

Wanna go to South Africa one day

Because I love their food

[tepid mulch]

Stick the head of your enemies outside of your shack

Facing your door too

[eternal veldt]

return to monke

then return to primordial soup

[spring briar]

gondwana time

https://tenor.com/view/continental-drift-gif-23704530

[tepid mulch]

Donwana go back to Gondwana

[spring briar]

australia having been in the same general spot for 3 billion years

🐌

[tepid mulch]

Always down under

Aight I got three colors

Red
Green
Orange

Pick one

[gilded girder]

No blue? :(

[tepid mulch]

No blue

[gilded girder]

[desert agate]

Fastest moving continent now

1m every year

We're coming for you Papua

[gilded girder]

Where move tho?

Ohgodohfuck

[tepid mulch]

How to accelerate

[desert agate]

Australian gps' get a bit fucky because of it

[tepid mulch]

Also stop blowing cold winds here, it's fucking freezing now

[desert agate]

Nah

Luv me desert winds

[tepid mulch]

Understandable

[tepid mulch]

Anyways pick one

[desert agate]

Green because green and gold are the national colours

You're complaining about wind when I'm from Perth tho

[tepid mulch]

Ok, then the next USN event will have Missouri

[desert agate]

Huh

Tarot card event predictions?

[tepid mulch]

The AP Mark 8 had a nominal 1.5 lbs. (0.68 kg) dye bag but this was allowed to be as large as 3.0 lbs. (1.36 kg) in order to bring underweight projectiles up to standard. The Iowa class was assigned the following dye colors: USS Iowa - Orange USS New Jersey - Blue USS Missouri - Red USS Wisconsin - Green

Jesser is blue

Oh wait, Wisconsin is green

Misread lmao

[desert agate]

Omg it would be so cool if they gave them all hair colour corresponding with their shell dye colours

[dapper parcel]

WisKey must be awkward

[tepid mulch]

Angry

She angry

She Doom Slayer

[spring briar]

only navies with shell colors are based

[tepid mulch]

According to Navweaps, the Iowas got some nuclear shells in the 50s

Guess who's the only one of the four to actually fire em (the practice shell version at least)

[desert agate]

I wonder what the RAN used for their shell dyes

[spring briar]

orange dust

[tepid mulch]

USS Wisconsin did fire one of the practice shells during a test in 1957.

Nuclear Wiskey skill?

[zealous vine]

I keep hearing the consensus that every capital ship admiral would bust a nut at crossing the T, but about every mainstream naval game I've experienced go against that notion.

Is there something missing in these games??

[eternal veldt]

Problem 1: It's hard to coordinate such movement in only less than 1 minute.

Problem 2: Dispersion, reload and other targetting practices has been altered or minimized to the point that it will not be frustrating for "players", that is otherwise critical in fleet engagements.

[zealous vine]

Ah, alright. Thanks a ton for the clarification.

[eternal veldt]

Looking at that arcade game in particular, it's a simple matter of look via binoculars and click

In reality, at least for the Royal Navy, you fire half salvos from each turret, track the range, adjust the next salvo until you "bracket" the ship.

Naturally, all this data becomes worthless as you execute your own manuevers or that the enemy changes course, but this is completely irrelevant in most games.

[zealous vine]

Fyi, not just weegee's abomination, even other game's like UAD, etc.

[eternal veldt]

I think UAD also tries to do that

[dapper parcel]

Those "naval game" also have their dispersion model reversed compared to IRL (unless they already changed it, that is)

[eternal veldt]

Crossing the T gives the inherent advantage that you bring the maximum amount of barrels down the enemy

While the enemy is capable of using only their forward guns

[zealous vine]

Yes, I understand that, but would "angling" be overall better?

[eternal veldt]

Unless, they execute a turn to "unmask" their rear guns

I dont think angling works IRL

Especially over long distances where shells start plunging down onto your deck

[desert agate]

UAD does good gunnery

[dapper parcel]

When shells start plunging, angling would be the worst aspect since you expose more of your deck to enemy fire

[zealous vine]

I guess that even at closer ranges, you have

The turrets, the bridge

To pummel when they're bowed-in

[dapper parcel]

At least UAD's hit rate is low enough that it's worth to bear more gun

[alpine onyx]

Angling is a consideration for naval warfare

but not much of one

[dapper parcel]

They more likely angle to close in faster than angle to present more effective armor thickness

[zealous vine]

Do naval games tend to generally treat superstructures, especially the bridge/director/that stuff, as less important? (Like just an over pen)

[zealous vine]

Nice to know

[eternal veldt]

Can't comment, but they are most certainly not unimportant.

Overpen or not, having a fucking shell tearing through your command staff or otherwise nearly killing you can cause judgment errors or otherwise hamper the operation of the ship.

Mikawa and Teach moment

[zealous vine]

Ah, aight

[spring briar]

risk mitigation is important

[delicate beacon]

It usually doesn't endanger the stability of the ship or cause damage to critical components, but it can still cause fires and destroy/disrupt a lot of the ships functionalities.

[eternal veldt]

Cutting the wires to your directors is good enough.

Granted, backup systems are there.

If that doesnt work, let the tropic humidity do its work and disable your HACS.

Prince of Wales approved.

[delicate beacon]

Down till CA so far

Hm, do I include Milwaukee under US?

[zealous vine]

When is HE usually ideal other than shore bombardment, and lightly-armored ships

[spring briar]

hitting a heavy cruiser in a fjord on its weakpoints

[alpine onyx]

when your AP can't be expected to deliver desirable results

so for instance Scharnhorst was instructed to use HE if she had to fight a Nelson

because good luck getting anything done with 283mm AP shells here

[spring briar]

the 203mm upper belt maybe

[eternal veldt]

You can still wreck their topsides with HE

If there's ready ammunition lying around, an HE shell would most likely make all of that pop

lots of dead men

[spring briar]

me looking at IJN CA designs

https://tenor.com/view/osha-gif-13410721

[junior trench]

"time to lose turrets to 5" AA Common!"

[spring briar]

like
atleast put them above deck
nah
encloses them in the hull for more pressure buildup

[eternal veldt]

I mean, for those.... a near miss will do

stares at Suzuya

[spring briar]

I'm also curious about the oxygen plant

how much of a safety risk it actually is

[delicate beacon]

One step away

What displacement do I give Georgia

[frigid karma]

wows states 53.44k tons

[delicate beacon]

yeah, full load

I need standard

[frigid karma]

wows doesn't give that

[delicate beacon]

I'll use their Iowa ratio

[frigid karma]

just take the difference of georgia's full load to iowa's full load and apply it to standard

[delicate beacon]

Hm

It's nearly 45k clean

I guess I figured what Wargaming did here.

Here you go

[spring briar]

[ivory ridge]

[spiral cedar]

Keep in mind that gun-focused ships tend to form up into a line in 20th century naval combat. This is very useful for coordination of orders, command and control, IFF, etc. One can easily look into the literature to find examples of the consequences of departing from the basic line ahead—collisions, friendly fire, etc.

So in the typical Line Ahead formation, "angling" cannot be a major tactical factor, aside from simply presenting broadside and turning away from torpedoes. Ships are restricted to the angles and range bands dictated by their neighboring ships, and the flagship of the division must take all other ships into account. So at, say, Jutland, you can't rely on "angling" to save you—your ship will be angled based off much larger considerations than its own position of best defensive advantage.

However, this isn't the case for engagements of only 1-2 major ships on each side. Ships are able to maneuver independently if desired, as the ocean is large and thus collision and misidentification are more unlikely. In such a case, angling can indeed be useful—USN WWII captains were issued "immune zone" charts of friendly and enemy warships that depicted the effects of angling, so as to give them the ability (if the need arose) to quickly angle the ship for tactical advantage. Other nations made similar observations. In the post-treaty era with far smaller hull counts, this became a possibility for smaller engagements. Though, hitting the enemy first was of course usually priority—you want to avoid masking your guns if possible, Denmark Strait tactical issues aside.

[manic latch]

From 1979

Good ol US intel

[junior trench]

my dude

that's from TRADOC

not MI

[spiral cedar]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/515583624083406848/862801949250420806/image0.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/515583624083406848/862801949535109150/image1.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/515583624083406848/862801965423001622/image0.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/515583624083406848/862801965797212180/image1.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/515583624083406848/862801978714619924/image0.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/515583624083406848/862801983450120212/image0.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/515583624083406848/862801988026499102/image0.png

Contemporary charts issued to US BB captains

[chilly osprey]

Any versions exist versus their European counterparts, or did the USN not really care too much?

[spiral cedar]

I’m unsure

I’d imagine the NWC made some at some point

But no idea if any were issued to captains afloat

[spring briar]

hectoyards

anyways, that is a very discrete set of data jaba

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When you want to use metric but really don't want to use metric.

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What are the most famous real-life WW2 ships that are missing from the game?
AFAIK they are Yamato & Musashi of Japan and Iowa & Missourie of the US

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Taffy 3

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Texas

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is Johnston in?

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no

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where can i read or watch about them?

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haida probably fits too

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Lorraine
but that's just me speaking

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https://www.amazon.com/Last-Stand-Tin-Sailors-Extraordinary/dp/0553381482

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.

Taffy 3 out banzai'd the Banzai faction

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Concordet, Courbet-class, Bretagne-class, Strasbourg, Clemenceau, the two Deutschlands, Arkansas, 2 New-Yorks, the 3 New Mexicos, an Arkansas sister, 3 more Iowas, Yamato, Musashi, Anson

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and Roma

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*Condorcet Sanglune

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Condetcord

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The ships not in AL, or Taffy 3?

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Yes

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Andrea Doria

Duilio

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whomegalul

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feels like WW1 man

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San Giorgio

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5 minute guides are a decent place to start

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oh yeah roma too, definitely

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damn i want to see an anime version of Taffy 3 vs. Yamato

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USS William D. Porter

Under “possibly in the game but not really”

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O'Bannon, she must get excellent ASW

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USS England

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it's the loading screen chibi

iirc

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Supposedly

I’m inclined to believe it but regardless that’s not “really” in the game

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HMAS Sydney

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Garibaldi technically ingame but not

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Most decorated Australian ship of ww2

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Definitely up there in terms of all battle honours across commonwealth navies

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both sydneys pls

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God almighty yes please

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https://tenor.com/view/3d-saul-saul-goodman-adamghik-gif-23876766

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Sydney 1 was a legendary ship in her own right

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yeap

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wow, the kamikaze destroyer sure killed a lot.

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I've read some accounts from her battle with Emden

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It’s because of the 35,000 km range torpedoes

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Von Spee's bizarre adventure need its own arc

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kamikaze defeated them all with the power of her really pretty wows camo

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There was a hit right near the bridge, a good chunk of the crew there were killed, the guy manning the range finder on the guns literally has half a torso on him, and without saying a word calmly gets up, and says "where's my bloody telescope"

Some insane bravery

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much style very good

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Such biteable bow

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my goto of "get a load of chad thundercock over here" seems genuinely inadequate

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TIL French ACR's helped evacuate Armenians in 1915 during the genocide

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the steel sheeting on the bow tip would be a bit bent

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@tough quail

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my man

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...wouldn't spee technically actually count as a BB by treaty terms

🤔

iirc anything above 8" was uprated to capital ship by default

not that germany was a signatory, but still

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Not quite

Because she was officially 10,000 tons

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ahh

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Suddenly reminded of the time Maine said Germany violated the naval treaties

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oh

that's kind of funny

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Capital ship itself wasn't defined so it wasn't necessarily a BB

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troo

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up until March of 1979 the US was still on schedule to deliver at least 2 of what would become the Kidd-class destroyers to the Iranian Navy

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I believe the wording is that a ship would take up capital ship displacement, not necessarly be a capital ship.

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the Iranian Revolution happened in February of 1979

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The treaty subverts shipclasses quite well.

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and the order was canceled from the Iranian end

which is

amusing

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Didn't the shah of Iran get 2 gold plated destroyers?

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Contra lol

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not even

this is 6 years too early

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Yeah ik

Just similar

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2 ships had their orders canceled in February with the Iranians telling the US the contract allowed for the USN to take over the vessels

and then the other 2 were canceled in March under the same terms

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thats just hilarious

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there's something funny about the US actually just going full Vickers salesman

and being like

"so... do you still want these?"

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kekw

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@spring briar

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frégate_de_défense_et_d'intervention

As of February 2022, five ships have been ordered for the French Navy, with the lead ship being named "Amiral Ronarc'h", and an additional three for the Hellenic Navy.

And you are lucky this time US isn't offering a counterpart

Yet

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That would require the US to have someone on offer other than the MMSC, i.e. worth it

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lmfao

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Speaking of which

Why there isn't export Burke

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check the korean navy

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Sejong class?

I am sure Japan also got their copy paste ish

But what I mean is the real export

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Because, generally speaking, anyone who can afford to operate a Burke/has a fleet a Burke makes sense in can usually afford to build their own ship

Japan and South Korea are really the only two examples of navies that lacked the design experience and sensor systems for a real AAW combatants at the time, which is why they ended up going for Burkoids

Australia is just about in the same category, but they didn't require something as large and thus had on offer either a modified F-100 or a smaller Burke by Gibbs & Cox. They went the F-100 route and that's how the Hobart's happened.

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Gibbs & Cox still exists?

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i find kinda weird how countries with small-ish navies like germany and spain are so successful in exporting ships/designs

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https://www.gibbscox.com/

ohno

they do still exist

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Germany hit it off very well with the MEKO series, just thanks to how customizable they were. And then they also really hit it off with the Type 209 SSKs in terms of offering a submarine that was decent but also still quite affordable for nations who weren't going to be buying anything in the league the larger navies were building in.

Spain had the advantage of everyone not knowing how many fun surprises come with working with Navantia until after the ships were being built!

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knows absolutely nothing of modern ships

oh I see

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Sorry, I meant to reply to Undefined's comment XD

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makes sense

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But, yeah, Gibbs and Cox is still around. The Burke is their design to begin with

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eugh

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Angry Nagato noises

Chinese steel

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Not sure if Nagato can really fall under tha AoN rule

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Then again, Nagato's armor is a mystery box anyway. Some frames would get mauled by entry level dreadnoughts, some I'd expect to withstand 16in SHS at reasonable ranges

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how high is this guy on americium

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I am good with Montana wanking. Since only such a worthy ship would make Project 24 possible

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he also doesn't understand the purpose of SHS it seems

but ok

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Also calls it “S.H.A.P.”

Because god is dead apparently

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Virgins: Super Heavy AP because it's Heavy

Soviets: Super Heavy AP is standard weight

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French: obus alourdi

because it's a heavyweight 305mm shell

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isnt it kind of standard weight for the usn too by the time they adopt it tbf

well unless you count the HC shells being smaller

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Nah They had standard AP I think

Since Sodak armor was designed against standard AP

As did Iowa

Only Montana armor was against Super Heavy

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I mean
Iowa's belt would still be alright against the SHS at relatively long-ish range

it's not optimised for that

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That battlecruiser reduce armor for speed lmao

Montana is the real chad

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but it's 406mm so it really performs pretty good anyways

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since when has america had knights?

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boogeyman

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You know sometimes I wonder

If Yamato and Iowa did meet

And Yamato sunk the Iowa

How would Iowa fans defend her

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i want to die

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Probably something about weight

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which would be valid tbf

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Muh unfair conditions radar didn't work smh

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Would depend on the “how” of course

e.g. is it a “lucky hit”

(as if all hits in naval combat are not lucky)

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Iowa vs Yamato is much better debate than Bismarck vs Yamato anyway

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Vanguard v. Yamato

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both debates are a waste of time

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3 Littorios v. Yamato was one I saw

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see that's better

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derfflinger vs der finger

😉

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I see Mussolini became a Littorio

his dream fulfilled

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He is Roma now

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just wait until my murm provider makes the Impero murm emote

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