I didn't even want to try and include inflation because I didn't even have access to how many years the costs were spread over
#history
chilly osprey
spring briar
hold my beer
chilly osprey
For some reason most books that bother with describing specific classes almost entirely ignore the financials involved
spring briar
phoenix you still got that 1000 page thesis I gave you?
spring briar
it's a mine layer
well, it's probably the best document I've ever seen that goes over economics of naval buildup etc
like ever
nothing comes close
chilly osprey
Yeah, I am very grateful for you sharing that
spring briar
I was planning on contacting the guy
to ask about the best ways to get french archive stuff
delicate beacon
it's a mine layer
Cheat
delicate beacon
Show me info
spring briar
(Frech naval forum is a blessing)
the guy that invented the AP cap getting deaded by a torpedo
chilly osprey
ironic
delicate beacon
Was it still around during ww2?
spring briar
if I have to include stuff still around in ww2 I'd have to add a bunch of armoured cruisers sang
delicate beacon
I meant Pluton
desert agate
oh
spring briar
Pluton died in 1936 due to her pulling a mine onboard that was somehow fused
she went boom
spring briar
well there isn't a very large pool to get that % at 100
desert agate
there kinda is tho
i mean yeah historically not as many ships as the brits or french or americans or whatever
desert agate
ended ww2 with more ships than the french tho
spring briar
that's not hard
delicate beacon
Can't find her displacement
spring briar
I'll just look in jordan's book
gimme a sec sang
oh
she died in 1939
my bad
she died on september 13th
which is later than september 1st
so Pluton is allowed
chilly osprey
spring briar
blessed
she would be a cool elite CL
or SSR to fit in with Jeanne D'Arc and Emile Bertin
delicate beacon
somber knoll
Bertin is elite tho so...
spring briar
I was extremely disappointed when I saw that jordan didn't write anything about Vasilefs Konstantinof
well she got a retro
which did nothing
but alas
somber knoll
dapper parcel
Jordan please why
Pretty certain that's on the offset 
quite literally offset in both meaning
delicate beacon
This is France
Wait, should include fiction
Since I need to show how bloated Germany is in that regard
dapper parcel
18 huh? wait, which game is that?
spring briar
Pretty certain that's on the offset <:EntyLUL:522425982758682637>
it's an error
might be from pdf compression
spring briar
somber knoll
weegee pretty much built her as-is in game afaik?
delicate beacon
since she's full load
spring briar
I'd take 43k full load
delicate beacon
I have used standards so far
somber knoll
since she's full load
considering the Gascogne hull but with Alsace's gun... 42.5-45k is prolly the sweet spot
delicate beacon
what the fuck is going on
spring briar
lol
delicate beacon
oh
spring briar
sum function broke?
spring briar
also don't forget to add the ENTIRE HSF for germany
since IB gets the privilege of getting WW1 botes
delicate beacon
spring briar
pitiful
delicate beacon
@alpine onyx give list of AL candidate boats 
spring briar
alsace 45k
delicate beacon
huh
spring briar
but you can also go with 40k
since the lightest design was probably chosen
atleast for the first one
alpine onyx
<@285676892290285569> give list of AL candidate boats <:UniGun:58558524173792053...
For Germany?
delicate beacon
Si.
spring briar
also Fyi there's 2 Alsaces
not 4
delicate beacon
Ich mene... Ja
spring briar
atleast according to what we know
alpine onyx
Worthwhile additions or just blindly naming all of them?
spring briar
alpine onyx
delicate beacon
Will use the first column for that
alpine onyx
There are like
Three post WW1 era ships for IB I'd really care about
Maybe four
The rest be like whatever
alpine onyx
Oh forgot Scheer, make that 4-5
spring briar
that's it
alpine onyx
Pre dreads are WW1 era, technically
delicate beacon
Right, I forgot we basically got all IB already
alpine onyx
So didn't count thm
spring briar
that's all major surface ships they're missing
but we're getting WW1 and fake paper shit instead
delicate beacon
If they served in WW2, they count
spring briar
alpine onyx
Scheer, Emden, ZG-3, Z-31 and maybe a Type 1944 Zedbote
spring briar
in that case I have to add some armoured cruisers, sanglune
alpine onyx
You forgetting Hermes
delicate beacon
Scheer, Emden, ZG-3, Z-31 and *maybe* a Type 1944 Zedbote
ZH, KH 
spring briar
also, for alsace just take 45k tons, sang
alpine onyx
Then again, knowing AL maybe I don't really want them adding Zedbotes
spring briar
since we'll get the 3x4 gun variant in AL
somber knoll
Emden
btw, considering that interwar Emden is basically a modifed 1916 Karlsruhe, I think we prolly won't get this specific incarnation...
spring briar
>half the list is TBs and Submarines
too lazy to remove
also sanglune can just pick what he wants so
alpine onyx
Lemme add minesweepers
alpine onyx
Not complaining tho, they are cute
And with V-S props
well suited for mineclearing
dapper parcel
Now that you mention it
I still can't fully understand why GZ had V-S prop in the bow
Ik it's bow thruster, but why V-S? Retractable no less
alpine onyx
For canal passings
spring briar
she's a big girl
alpine onyx
She had too large of a profile and they feared that she'd ground if strong winds hit her
dapper parcel
Wouldn't normal bow thrusters more suited for that?
No additional draft restriction
alpine onyx
V-S is more flexible I guess, with the variable thrust direction and intensity
somber knoll
alpine onyx
And with her being not as deep as some of the BBs that passed the canal, the draft should be fine
What she needs is a better storage concept and planes that can actually get compressed
To put her Essex*1.3 sized Hangar to use
dapper parcel
And with her being not as deep as some of the BBs that passed the canal, the dra...
Hmm 
She's barely a meter less in draft, yet the thrusters had to extend more than a meter, and then some allowing for the tip effect
Of course a carrier should have easier time lightening her load, but still...
spring briar
don't underestimate that thruster
I also feel that the rather aggressive taper of GZ's hull adds to her manoeuvrability
@alpine onyx
found you a pitzu
alpine onyx
demo demo
alpine onyx
Possible, tho I have those picture bands of Tirpitz which are like 400 pics per band, so I cannot check
Best to just borrow them all
spring briar
you have picture bands
of Tirpitz
you know how hard it is to find pictures of Dunkerque post-1941?
DO YOU?
alpine onyx
spiral cedar
That url
alpine onyx
Very good books, not much text, just loads of pics in chronological order with descriptions and focus on small details
So not easiest to digest for your average wehraboo
junior trench
No
junior trench
"He's delusional, take him to the infirmary"
spring briar
alpine onyx
do you taste metal?
spring briar
alpine onyx
oh wait, should stop licking warships
spring briar
me, chewing on a piece of lead
nah wtf you talking about
visual affront incoming
delicate beacon
Done with all large German ships
spiral cedar
Banana slug
desert agate
is that a kaisermarine ensigne?
spring briar
would you be interested in seeing transport ship Dithmarschen in her post-war USN configuration?
🕵️
tough quail
at least she looked kinda cool
delicate beacon
SIREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENE
alpine onyx
meanwhile 750+ pics of Eugen
delicate beacon
What are all German DDs from WW2?
alpine onyx
German DDs are easy
spring briar
WHEEZE
alpine onyx
wait actually I have a table
delicate beacon
POG
alpine onyx
how much detail?
delicate beacon
displacement, launch status, number
spring briar
Another picture for Sirene
Altmark and Graf Spee
(during Spanish civil war)
save it
alpine onyx
Spee and Altmark
do I put it into Spee folder
or make Altmark folder
or make Combo folder
spiral cedar
Spaltmark
alpine onyx
spring briar
spiral cedar
spring briar
stop aboos of de grasse
spiral cedar
tough quail
Spee Spee Spee s
alpine onyx
Speeeeeee
tough quail
thank you spep
delicate beacon
Despair.
delicate beacon
USE METRIC PEOPLE 
frigid karma
speaking of space shit, why were carriers like hornet used to retrieve the apollo missions
national pride
or are destroyers insufficient to pick up the craft
dapper parcel
which is which (t) / (ts)
ts is long ton
t should be metric ton
but that numbers don't make sense for direct conversion
tough quail
the 30 different kinds of tons makes me want to die
alpine onyx
looks at 50+ different pounds
strong plank
speaking of space shit, why were carriers like hornet used to retrieve the apoll...
having a lot of surface area to work with when retrieving the craft is probably pretty handy
delicate beacon
I'm so glad we Dutch switched to metric, once I leave my comfort zone of history and go further back you don't know what the fuck a pound is.
delicate beacon
Meanwhile, Union of NA States and Canada still have different Gallons.
alpine onyx
Colgate chaaaaan
spring briar
because of the hair in KC?
alpine onyx
oui
spring briar
I find that very cute
alpine onyx
shamelessly stole it for my Alsace OC
spring briar
dapper parcel
they somehow made Chen Hai, so idk
spring briar
dapper parcel
Everyone can make a plan, not that it has to be followed
they "plan" a lot of shit tbh
dapper parcel
open coal mine go brrr
delicate beacon
Am I allowed to count Odin as O-class?
alpine onyx
no
tough quail
not even close really
spring briar
Add Odin to the list of supposed Dunkerque counters that would still not counter her
delicate beacon
wait, not AvP
spring briar
delicate beacon
I'll just eyeball 75%
alpine onyx
Mainz take Seydlitz as CA, Odin guesstimate Scharnhorst (because that's what she was based on, a Scharnhorst prelim), Ägir go with O-class
delicate beacon
Took 14k for Mainz and 30k for Odin/Agir
tough quail
OH NO
tough quail
the most creative dickbutt rendition
delicate beacon
Germony
spring briar
delicate beacon
Fronce
spring briar
delicate beacon
I haven't finished the Netherlands but the %s you can already guess
spring briar
sanglune you've not added the two 45k ton alsaces yet
delicate beacon
Have I?
spring briar
no
delicate beacon
I should fix the syntax for France never built
Though I haven't counted Germany's either
spring briar
Duquesne taking a lean
dapper parcel
interesting the downtakes are that high 
delicate beacon
spring briar
which meant that everything else had to go up
delicate beacon
Left % is excluding new ships in the % divisor
spring briar
@chilly osprey if you're reading, pay special attention to the amiral charner class
hidden gems I tell you
delicate beacon
Finished France and German stats.
In this game, France has only 18% of its WWT fleet (30% by displacement)
Germany has 58% of its WWT fleet (115% by displacement)
If you wonder why the latter is so high, the stats include WW1 and PR in the denominator but not in the numerator.
Laid-down ships are included in both.
spring briar
tfw you open the breech block of your 194mm gun
but the charge inside goes off accidentally, burning both the gun crew and replacement crew coming to replace them to a crisp
and propelling the breech block on deck which kills another guy
spring briar
yeah it was very unfortunate
but otherwise very good botes
92mm belt with full coverage and a 50mm turtleback is pretty good for the time
chilly osprey
spring briar
poor guy on the deck
mind you this was only a 194mm gun
now imagine what the turret crew on Iowa experienced
chilly osprey
Would prefer not to but I've read enough accounts of these where I can...
spring briar
also interesting tidbit on french armoured cruisers is their mid-war testing with hydroplanes
eg. here on Edgar Quintet
dapper parcel
for a moment I thought it was the hull that was hydroplaning...
chilly osprey
XD
spring briar
Probably the best suited platforms available to the MN for such tests
well, they're big and have plenty of space so why not
the mind trembles when thinking what they would've done in case of a modernisation of the armoured cruisers
chilly osprey
Would be kind of cool to mess around with tbh
spring briar
They did keep some around and modernised the superstructures
and used them for gunnery training I assume
But an Edgar Quintet would be a serious scare for a lot of heavy cruisers
if the armament were to be upgraded ofc
removing most if not all of the casemate 194 mm guns and replacing the two main turret guns with newer ones
changing the coal fired boilers out for oil fired ones
dapper parcel
Kongo moment
spring briar
wouldn't go that far
just bring them up to a level where they can take potshots at CA's
chilly osprey
Mmm, they could be useful as slow convoy escorts so long as you make sure the fire control is up to date
Big worry for any armored cruisers is just how incredibly vulnerable to torpedoes they are
spring briar
Yep
chilly osprey
And most are operating off of VTE's rather than turbines
spring briar
The later french ones atleast had some semblance of cofferdams
And enough space to fit a bulkhead or two
chilly osprey
Would also need to figure out how much we can increase gun elevation
+15° won't cut it, casemate guns will definitely have to go
Turrets perhaps could be modified for more elevation
spring briar
Replace Edgar Quintet’s wing turrets with 130mm DP guns
Yeah the casemates need to go regardless
Too heavy
And need the freed up space for DC facilities
Fill the slope of the armoured deck with ebonite mousse
I’ve seen mentions of replacing the 194’s all together for twin 203’s
chilly osprey
Two twin turrets?
spring briar
Yes
chilly osprey
Interesting
spring briar
And they have some semblance of deck armour unlike the British ACR’s
chilly osprey
True, though, we're still just looking at layered mild steel. It could really use with actual armor plate being laid over the top of it, though that is strongly dependent on how much topweight you can spare
spring briar
Yeah but the costs are racking up here
Let’s keep them as is and upgrade the turrets for higher elevation
Removing the casemates
And replacing the armor deck for modern steel while we’re swapping out the boilers anyways
delicate beacon
guess the country.
spring briar
chilly osprey
hmm, I wonder how much weight we could save with the boiler swap
delicate beacon
There's also >47.000t post war stuff there
chilly osprey
what the hell
delicate beacon
Don't you know, Edgar in wows has OTOs
chilly osprey
OMG you can open pictures in books on scribd as images in another tab
chilly osprey
spring briar
chilly osprey
chilly osprey
delicate beacon
spring briar
Too bad the mediterranean theatre was rather depressing
They would’ve loved to hunt german raiders
chilly osprey
Probably lucky for the Austrians that none of their armored cruisers ever got caught out by their French or Italian counterparts
Sankt Georg doesn't exactly look great next to Edgar Quintet or San Giorgio
spring briar
A lot doesn’t tbf
Like not counting blucher
Although I don’t know how good that 210mm gun performed overall
Sam giorgio is using a whopping 254 iirc and Edgar is using a 194 going at 950 mps so
chilly osprey
Yep
chilly osprey
Saint George vs Surface-to-Air George
spring briar
Always found it funny that France never went to higher calibers on their ACR’s
They had some 12” armed designs
But just stuck with the ubercharged 194
chilly osprey
Yeah, tbh I always wondered why they never opted for a 240mm ship or something
Maybe they felt the caliber too heavy to be useful for a cruiser?
spring briar
It’s mostly the lingering influence of the jeune école
But do you really need a larger caliber when you have 950 mps muzzle velocity?
Neat, found it
So imagine jeanne d’arc but replace the two single 194’s for 305’s
Oh dear
maiden citrus
spring briar
Sexy
rapid junco
spring briar
It’s interesting to see that the Italians saw their ACR’s as somewhat smaller battleships
spring briar
Me when sad: watches video on georgios averof
ivory ridge
second line battleships
delicate beacon
Hm, if we apply the same eagerness to add German ships to the Dutch, we'd get 19 Dutch ships. Just as much as the French 
spring briar
spring briar
Least pipe-bomby ACR
maiden citrus
when the mag is sus
delicate beacon
Hello new person.
Are there any ships in AL that were planned but had no blueprints?
spring briar
midnight ore
you're not counting subs in there right?
delicate beacon
Oh yeah, France alone already made me give up for now
frigid karma
Are there any ships in AL that were planned but had no blueprints? <:cirThink:89...
Wdym, “planned but had no blueprints”
Ig Roon?
Or Cheshire
delicate beacon
I mean, that's the closests
frigid karma
Or Georgia
delicate beacon
But I mean if there's an official doc saying "future fleet plan: 12 H-class battleship, 22 Detroyers" then those destroyers would be without blueprint
frigid karma
Cheshire and Georgia are both a case of hull planned, turrets had blueprints, but neither had combined
tribal mortar
So that means that Cheshire had her hull planned, but didn't have any gun blueprints.
Because the design of Georgia is completely based off of what the Iowa class would have looked like with bigger guns.
delicate beacon
They're just made up ships using some real elements.
delicate beacon
Did more maffs,
If we got as many Dutch or French ships as we got German ships proportional to their real navies we'd have 24 Dutch ships instead of 0, 65 over 19 French ships against Ironblood's current 48.
ivory ridge
eternal veldt
Honestly, I'd be harsh on Cheshire and write the entire thing off as fake.
No British CAs were based on a Neptune Hull with raked funnels, and much less identical number of portholes.
And that is before going to the crappy twin 234mm turret designation and model.
You can take a good hit of copium and argue it's a downscale of the intended greek export cruiser of 3 x twin 254mm guns, but that's mental gymnastics taken to a new level.
Roon at the very least had an actual gun turret design hidden in the BdA to boast about.
As to Sang's original question, I'm not sure if Suruga counts
Because sources contend whether they'll carry identical armament as the Kii class, or go full ham with 4 x 3 410mm guns as part of the "improved Kii" class.
somber knoll
Because the design of Georgia is completely based off of what the Iowa class wou...
The guns does exist
frigid karma
the guns exist
georgia's proto-iowa hull design exist
or rather, was planned
the idea of mounting 457s on iowa was considered but the 6 gun count was too low and was thus scrapped
somber knoll
at that time the designers were a bit picky with what guns to use for the Iowas that they miscommunicated with the Ordnance folks.
They assumed either the Mark 2 or 3 for the OG Iowa design, experimented with a relined 457, then decided that they needed a new gun and made the Mark 7 instead 
eternal veldt
The Mark A was never intended for a battleship, it was experimental in nature
any 18" variant of the Iowas would use a newly designed gun with different shells and muzzle velocities
eternal veldt
^Although this weapon was extensively considered in numerous battleship design studies of the 1920s and 1930s, it was never formally selected for any ship. The last US battleship design, the cancelled USS Montana (BB-67) class, would have carried the same 16"/50 (40.6 cm) Mark 7 guns as did the previous USS Iowa (BB-61) class.
tender monolith
gotchu
tepid mulch
Reading this blog on the genesis on the Montana and I find it funny that the 18 inch just pops up here and then but was never taken seriously
A: Quad 14" won't work and only 9 16" is not enough. We need more firepower guys.
B: We got the 18" sir, it's more than enough to beat any ship.
Everyone: No
somber knoll
any 18" variant of the Iowas would use a newly designed gun with different shell...
btw, correct me if I'm wrong from this 406 nomenclature, it gets a bit confusing unless the caliber is mentioned:
Mark 1: 16/45 variant, OG Colorados' guns
Mark 2: 16/50 variant, planned for the Lexingtons and 20s Sodaks, but cancelled and all but 3 produced were handed to the Army as coastal defense guns (or HARP experiment)
Mark 3: near identical to the Mark 2 with minor improvements?
Mark 4: Experimental 16/56 variant based on the 457, aka 18/47.
Mark 5: Rebuilt Mark 1, used by the Colorados after refit
Mark 6: 16/45 variant, also heavier. North Carolinas' and the Choco Sodaks' gun choice
Mark 7: 16/50 variant. ez Iowa gun boom boom.
Mark 8: A Mark 5 variant with a chrome liner to increase barrel lifespan
Mark D: an intermittent prototype based on the mark 3?
tepid mulch
`The Mark 3 was very similar to the Mark 2, the only difference being that the Mark 3 had a one-step conical liner.
A sixth gun, 16"/50 (40.6 cm) Mark 3 Mod 1, No. 131, was later modified to become a prototype for the Mark 7 and was then redesignated as the Mark D Mod 0. The Mark D prototype was later welded to a portion of a seventh barrel (Mark and serial number unknown) to create an extra long gun as part of the High Altitude Research Project (HARP) program of the 1960s.`
The Mark 4 was originally a prototype 18"/48 gun but thanks to the Washington Naval Treaty, development of guns larger than 16" was outlawed, so the Navy completed it as a long 16" gun and redesignated it as the 16"/54 Mark 4
Later on it got reconverted back to an 18" gun but thanks to comedy it became 47-calibers long, hence the 18"/47 Mark A
`In 1941, the 16-inch Mark IV gun was sent back to the Naval Gun Factory by barge for conversion to an 18-inch gun. The intention was to convert the gun back to the original 18"/48 configuration, but this could not be easily accomplished because threads had been cut at the muzzle during the 16-inch conversion. These threads had to be removed and, for this reason, the gun is now 47-calibers long and not the 48-calibers desired. The designation for this newly reconfigured gun was the 18"/47 Caliber Gun Mark A, No. 1.
somber knoll
Later on it got reconverted back to an 18" gun but thanks to comedy it became 47...
The comedy being the liner fuckery used to rebore it.
the production version would have been reverted back to its OG 48 caliber length, but alas they didn't do it.
tepid mulch
Well this is neat
The 16"/54 Mark IV still holds the record for longest shot ever fired in Dahlgren
Idk how long 48,000 yards is but it went that far. Estimated max range of the gun is 52,000 yards
Apparently in normal terms, 52,000 yards is 47.5 km
somber knoll
Apparently in normal terms, 52,000 yards is 47.5 km
filthy SI simps 
and that's double of the typical battleship engagement range at around 20-25k yards.
tepid mulch
In more relatable terms for me, about halfway from where I am to my hometown
maiden citrus
the mark 1 is the colorado gun as built, the mark 5 and 8 are colorado's refit guns
tepid mulch
Really gives you a scale
Of how big Earth is
Two weeks ago I had to do a presentation on the late 19th and early 20th century, basically before WW1
One thing that I find underappreciated is how the things then just fit together and it all finally makes sense
The inventions that were found complemented each other, creating a synergy
Europe's all fucked up now that Germany's all one and there's a sense of nationalism, some are unfortunately motivated by extreme racism and social darwinism
Exploration's back in the game with Leopold wanting that good shit in Africa thanks to newly available tech that allowed his explorers to travel deeper into the heart of darkness.
As Euro grows hungrier for resources because of growing numbers of factories and they want to invest their cash elsewhere, the powers decided that they should scramble over Africa. Some are really in it for the cash, others are mostly for flex (Germany and Italy)
Same thing happens in Asia
Give em really trash terms they must accept and it's no wonder the Chinese are still butthurt about it
Can't even touch the gueilos because they're bound by their own laws, not theirs
So where does this all lead and culminate in
You found a way to mass produce steel, which can now be used to build real strong and sturdy stuff
Electricity's the biggest thing ever and you can use it to power up even the most outrageous of projects
Engines are getting better and better as time goes
There's a sense of pride for your nation and a desire to show that off now that you're a great power
You have overseas possessions and want to project your power around the world
You are the bastion of progress and the light at the end of the tunnel. You want to be the final say and the apex of all that came before, an explosive climax from a brighter past and a darker future
It all culminates in HMS Dreadnought
maiden citrus
maiden citrus
redoubtable
maiden citrus
quite the looker
humble mulch
Very pretty
maiden citrus
spring briar
Couronne
spring briar
oh
spring briar
Napoléon, Gloire, Brennus vs Dreadnought
ivory ridge
Nera better
cinder escarp
IDF didn't, it's integral to the armor modules in the later Merk III add-ons and the Merk IV. You can literally see explosives warnings on Merk IV armor modules.
exotic scarab
Did you know
Harley actually made some power generators during the great depression
spring briar
@delicate beacon please do the russian navy AL/IRL comparison next
I'm really curious
delicate beacon
I'd need data for that 
spring briar
ask kremlin
delicate beacon
Also I thought about doing something like this for various times in WW2
So you can compare naval sizes at the start (invasion of poland), mid (invasion of Italy?) and end
etc.
dapper parcel
Ah yes... parallel park, the holy grail of carrier hangar 
Has anyone actually doing that tho
spring briar
Ah yes... parallel park, the holy grail of carrier hangar <:AkagiLUL:53198839269...
dunno
I'm pretty sure it's just to show the concept and to ensure that you can actually get the planes in and out
manic latch
I'd need data for that <:NotLikeAtago:666111458504998933>
Was easy to find 
delicate beacon
Is that..?
manic latch
Soviet Navy tonnage in 1939
delicate beacon
I mean the source
spring briar
navypedia
manic latch
spring briar
nailed it
delicate beacon
manic latch
https://naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/soviet-navy.php
Reached level near KMS in 1941 
delicate beacon
That's not a particular high bar
manic latch
Don't tell that to Wehrbs
delicate beacon
Also
That site copied random bits of text from my WOWS Dutch tree proposal and put it incoherently in the Dutch section
It's unreadable.
manic latch
Given how hard to reach Dutch documents
spring briar
they aren't
delicate beacon
The hardest documents are freely requested at the Hague.
manic latch
Then should be the lack of interest on obtaining them
delicate beacon
Imagine reading a book instead of parroting some hearsay
manic latch
Imagine reading a book instead of parroting some hearsay
Know the feel
delicate beacon
If we applied the same level of negligence to the Soviet Navy all their guns would be made by Schneider
manic latch
Based
eternal veldt
Please stop using naval encyclopedia.
It's an absolute shitshow of a site that argues that the Dunkerques are not "well armoured", that France didn't bother with radar technology, that the Hippers are the "best heavy cruisers", that the Scharnhorsts "traded protection for speed", and multiple, terribly identified photos.
tough quail
today is pain
tough quail
sleep like shit
monaco delayed
ferrari bungles leclercs win
navypedia gets yeeted by sanction
nonstop agony
tough quail
what the fuck
ivory ridge
did they just take like
designs that were sent to the soviets
thinking one is the variation of the other
delicate beacon
I should send them my designs 
eternal veldt
You're talking to fucking imbeciles who don't know how a Pennsylvania class differed from a Nevada class
Nor how a photo with a number 48 plastered all over it is Honolulu (they labelled it as Philadelphia)
Just shoot me
Anyone who cites this site automatically loses any kind of credibility, period.
Also, regarding navypedia
I'm sure it's backed up one way or the other on the wayback machine
chilly osprey
FCM-built ironclads did better for us than the ones built in America, that's for sure
spring briar
Phoenix
I found the results of the ballistic tests against Iéna
and this
I'll try to compound the test results in tables
I also learnt the definitive reason for light shells in the Bretagnes
manic latch
Italian Project 1058 
chilly osprey
Ohhhhh pls share
spring briar
it's a lot of pages so it'll take a while
but the reason for the light 340 was simply because they found out that at 0-14000 meters, a light but fast shell will have more penetration and room for explosives than a heavier but slower one
which fits in with their doctrin
chilly osprey
Makes sense
spring briar
after ~1922 their doctrin completely changed to heavier, longer shells at high muzzle velocities to retain the needed penetration at long range.
torn dome
in J-class Destroyers, how many of ships were in such class?
spring briar
La France, la Russie et les Etats-Unis emploient des poudres à la nitrocellulose pure
🇫🇷 🇷🇺 🇺🇸
Since when is 18300 yards 20000 meters
torn dome
so far, we're only missing Jaguar and Jackal. Should we include Jubilant as well?
chilly osprey
Since when is 18300 yards 20000 meters
lmao someone got their conversions backwards
rapid junco
Also, regarding navypedia
I need to say that to Luís Cordova
The guy of the new channel i saw
He used navypedia about DD classes (Fletcher, Sumner and Gearing)
frigid karma
Just shoot me
They can’t even spell wows right
chilly osprey
340mm?
spring briar
164mm and 194mm
spring briar
the book I'm reading was made when the 340mm was just in testing
chilly osprey
Though that was a reference to the plates for some reason
spring briar
the test with the 194 was done at largely similar conditions as the 164
spiral cedar
"Negligent" damage implies someone was careless
"Negligible" damage implies a small amount that can be ignored
chilly osprey
spring briar
ivory ridge
ivory ridge
A🅱️ruzzi
spring briar
Conclusion: French pre-WW1 shells are capable of staying intact and bursting after passing through heavy belt armor at angles between 0 and ~30°, with some shells being able to survive up to 40° with significant chance of detonation.
the later model of 305 mm shell employed on the Dantons and Courbets especially are shown to be rather reliable, whereas the earlier ones are shown to be rather feeble to angled (over ~20°) penetration
will add semi armor piercing results at another time
spring briar
Note: Iéna's were hurt in the making of this list
ivory ridge
tribal mortar
So, the Iron Blood are supposed to represent the Kriegsmarine from WWII.
The new SMS ships are from WWI.
Why didn't they just make a new faction that represents the Imperial German Navy?
chilly osprey
Because AL navigates the subtleties of European political history in the same way a brick navigates a glass window?
spring briar
So, phoenix I looked into those early italian ironclads and I see what you meant
desert agate
Why didn't they just make a new faction that represents the Imperial German Navy...
- #al-lore
- internal politics of the factions are left intentionally very vague, therefore its more than reasonable to presume that no regime change occurred in Germany in AL lore
tribal mortar
Alright
chilly osprey
Happy you found what I meant, but the 'this is fine' 'hide the pain' are for the, uh, unique qualities of the American-built ships
chilly osprey
Green wood, the quality of the machinery was shite, and the armor was both poorly arranged and poorly mounted
The French-build ships the RM had built at the same time were vastly superior ships
spring briar
They also looked nice
Ironclads have this mystical flair
Beyond even the pre dreadnoughts
maiden citrus
god fucking dammit
oh maybe that's why they had weird bad opinions on a lot of articles and hilariously broken english
chilly osprey
ironclads are also quite interesting because of how many types of armor developments there are in the period
spring briar
Definitely
chilly osprey
You go from wrought iron to Creusot Mild Steel, improved Mild Steel and Compound, then your first Nickel-Steel armors
And then you start getting Harveyized nickel-steel plate, but that's pre-dreadnought territory
maiden citrus
beautiful
delicate beacon
maiden citrus
on the bright side their numbers tended to be reliable
but even on their 503 page there are text errors
tough quail
delicate beacon
on the bright side their numbers tended to be reliable
You say that but I've seen the numbers they had for Dutch guns in the books.
delicate beacon
I use them for when I quickly need ballpark data
maiden citrus
You say that but I've seen the numbers they had for Dutch guns in the books.
tended being the key word, the numbers tended to be good
probably the most useful feature was the refits listing though it was somewhat hard to check reliability
reef current
Can anyone find me this AA gun name
white tusk
I’m kinda assuming it’s a bofors AA gun but correct me if I’m wrong since it’s the most common AA gun
spring briar
DNO Rear-Admiral A.G.H.W. Moore summarized Ordnance Board remarks regarding armor penetration in a "Memorandum to the Controller" dated 24 October 1910. In this Memorandum it was stated that 12 inch (30.5 cm) APC shells striking at any angle over 20 degrees were unlikely to penetrate even 4 inches (10.2 cm) of KC armor (face hardened) and were likely to breakup at angles of 30 degrees when striking 6 inches (15.2 cm) of KC armor.
Thus, it can be seen that the poor performance of British shells at Jutland (Skagerrak) cannot have been a surprise to the Royal Navy. Remarkably, the memo does not suggest that the shells be improved, but instead urges that these thicknesses of armor be considered for future ship designs, as if it was expected that enemy shells would perform as poorly as did their own.
Quoting from the Memorandum as detailed in "Battlecruisers" by John Roberts:
"From the trials with AP shell with cap so far carried out by the Ordnance Board against KC armour, it is clear that when striking at angles greater than 20deg to the normal there is very little chance of any AP shell in the service carrying its burster through such armour at any fighting range, as the shell would break up in passing through the armour. Generally speaking[,] capped AP shell, even when filled with salt, may be expected to beak up when striking KC armour of half caliber thickness at 30deg to the normal.
"It is submitted that this tendency of AP shell to break up at angles over 20deg to the normal may be an important factor in determining the distribution of armour in future ships as when AP shell, filled Lyditte, break up on striking such armour [and an] explosion and not [a] detonation takes place with very much smaller all-round effect . . ." [ellipsis in original]
spring briar
Literally French pre-dreadnought vs Invincible
pre-dread would win
320mm KC belt and 290mm KC turrets
good luck britain
tender monolith
hell?
maiden citrus
patpat
maiden citrus
we had rather relaxed build times too at the time
spring briar
did you though?
maiden citrus
SC took 4 years
spring briar
I'm talking towards the 1910's
maiden citrus
ah thought you meant around dreadnought's times
spring briar
the dantons were all launched in friggin 1909 and one in 1910
no, that's why I'm so pissed
their design predates dreadnought but they were launched so damn late
maiden citrus
yeah
spring briar
they were designing the dantons for turbines in july 1906
maiden citrus
sc predates dreadnought in design too, but wasn't ordered till much later and then took 4 years to get into service
spring briar
yeah
the dantons were all completed in the summer of 1911 except vergniaud which was completed in the winter
1911
spring briar
ye
sad state of affairs
dreadnought was commissioned in the same year she was launched
maiden citrus
yeah, they did cheat quite a bit though and brought all the stuff the ship would need before they technically were given permission or orders for it is how
and then used 70 hour workweeks to get it done
spring briar
France: first ironclad, first ocean going ironclad, first steam powered warship, first steel hull warship, first barbette ironclad, first pre-dreadnought, first armoured cruiser
Britain: HMS Dreadnought and HMS Warrior
desert agate
desert agate
At least you didn't take 7 years to build a light cruiser
HMAS Longdelayed thanks to British design export incompetence
maiden citrus
just build a better dreadnought than dreadnought
and still get no recognition for it
eternal veldt
people: <:EN:443832551753252864> <a:HEFSCalliPraying:785400262973849600>
Sorry sir, you lost Nile and Trafalgar, all opinion rejected /s
maiden citrus
🇺🇸 🤝 🇫🇷
spring briar
Sorry sir, you lost Nile and Trafalgar, all opinion rejected /s
and the first battle of Lissa
the one everyone forgets
maiden citrus
us and france beating britain at its last cultural holdout together
eternal veldt
I mean, if anything
Toulon was the bigger fuckfest
The one during Napoleon, not 1942
Majority of the French fleet either burnt or exploded by retreating Spanish-British forces
spring briar
ah yes
eternal veldt
spring briar
France is in eternal conflict with everyone
Alexa
name all french warships captured by britain and then commissioned in the RN
eternal veldt
France isn't exactly behind either imo
spring briar
yes but royal navy #1 or something
spring briar
despite them getting saved every time by quick build times
and in the age of sail I'm pretty sure french warships were just of lower quality
this completely changed in the ironclad era
eternal veldt
Used to be pretty good as far as I remember, until the 18th century
Then Brits started fucking around with copper sheathing
spring briar
yeah the napoleonic era ships weren't up to par mostly
don't know enough about before that
spring briar
But in the pre-dreadnought era, French pre-dreadnoughts are practically immune to any 12" shells fired from outside about 4km on their belt and turrets
spring briar
the problem being that designs like the patries, who should have been contemporaries of the KE7 class, were contemporaries of HMS Dreadnought
like, dreadnought still isn't penetrating their belt or turrets but the range and speed advantage is just too great
patrie vs dreadnought 1v1 on rust
letsgo
spring briar
Dreadnought can shoot at like 17 km
Patrie isn't gonna wanna shoot beyond 10 because her elevation only allows up to 12 km range
maiden citrus
oh
yeah normally I discount things like that but that's as you say, 'too great'
spring briar
yeah
if they had invested in vanguard-stile elevation increases to like 20-25° it would be fun
eternal veldt
Cut the smokestacks down and sneak up on Dreadnought
The spotters will be too busy sniffing coal smoke on dreadnought anyway
spring briar
BUT
there is a scenario that could have happened and that is absolutely hilarious
HMS Royal Sovereign in 1893 with her 4 13.5" black powder rifles
vs
Brennus with 3 340mm smokeless powder guns
maiden citrus
The spotters will be too busy sniffing coal smoke on dreadnought anyway
designers: whoops we thought this was a teahouse
navy: how many ships did this design flaw get put on?
designers: uh...
eternal veldt
At least it was quite quickly rectified
Then they fucked it up again with Colossus
spring briar
and then after brennus the pain starts
because while britain builds HMS renown and HMS Centurion and Barfleur, France wastes it's lead by
making the Charles Martel class
that was laid down in 1891-1893
but only completed in 1897-1898
While Britain has built the Majestic class that are all in commission in 1898
eternal veldt
Just make more torpedo boats
maiden citrus
when your designs don't actually compete on hard or soft levels so you just force your impressed dock workers to work 70 hour shifts and build stuff fast
eternal veldt
Embrace the Jeune Ecole
spring briar
and then the canopus', the london's, the Duncans, the Formidables, the KE7's, the Swiftsures and Lord Nelsons...
however
French ACR supremacy
and Jurien de la Gravière handily beats any British protected cruiser as well
look at this girl
maiden citrus
that actually looks really imposing
spring briar
aside from the lack of side armor she was practically a small ACR
maiden citrus
well acrs are based
spring briar
they are because there isn't a class of ship with more national flavour than ACR's
French ACR's: long and black, lots of medium guns with high MV and ram bows on the early ones
Italian ACR's: Heavily armed, basically second class battleships with low superstructures and many small guns on the early ones
American ACR's: Chonky armor with usually 2x2 203's or 254's on the later ones. Early ones look very stylish and have wing mounted turrets. Very little secondary guns.
Austro-Hungarian ACR's: See Italian ACR's, but scale everything down
British ACR's: banana's with 234's and loads of secondaries
Spanish ACR's: no
German ACR's: Kinda similar to USN ACR's but with 210's on every class. Blucher was just a small and fast nassau.
Russian ACR's: Smaller versions of their pre-dreadnoughts
Japanese ACR's: See Russian ACR's, but painted white. Very lightly armoured.
Greek ACR: A literal god forged from the grace of each relevant european sea power, can beat the entire ottoman fleet on its own twice
French export ACR's: literally cross breed USN ACR with French ACR
Italian export ACR's: See Italian ACR's
British export ACR's: unholy cross bred USN and British ACR
jovial elm
Fun one: Nimitz gifted the crew of KGV with an ice cream machine
maiden citrus
h-how many secondary guns is a lot if we have very little
spring briar
maiden citrus
the tenessees have almost 40
spring briar
It’s an issue on the older ones I have to add
maiden citrus
ahhh
I was like, some acrs be out there with 80 secondaries I guess
first couple admittedly are modest
maiden citrus
oh no
maiden citrus
fierce sparrow
Lindybeige...
spring briar
yah
delicate beacon
spring briar
onder marines!
ivory ridge
5th server i was pinged in with this