But yes
#history
spiral cedar
tribal mortar
That wouldn't make any sense other than to sink her where the press could see her.
spiral cedar
Recall that in the later stages of battle, prior to abandon ship, Bismarck was low enough in the water that the main belt was submerged, and thus British shells from close range were passing over her armor and out the other side—she had lost her reserve buoyancy
tribal mortar
Reserved buoyancy?
spiral cedar
Yes
delicate beacon
The think that makes the ship float
tribal mortar
Is there more than one system to keep a ship floating and level?
delicate beacon
i.e. she was heavier than the water
spiral cedar
When you design a ship, you don’t want it to sink from just one flooded compartment
tribal mortar
I know of the compartments
spiral cedar
So you design your ship with enough watertight compartments that, even if a certain volume of water is aboard, the ship remains positively buoyant
strong plank
It takes a really long time and a lot of money to make a ship, so you’re gonna want to give it as many chances as you can to keep it afloat
spiral cedar
The margin between the minimum needed, and the total you designed in, is reserve buoyancy
spiral cedar
You have to be less dense than water, which makes you positively buoyant
So the steel shell surrounds a bunch of low-density air
tribal mortar
Like a submarine's ballast tanks?
spiral cedar
Which means that steel shell + air combo produced a volume that is less dense overall than water
Yeah
tribal mortar
Alright
spring briar
Average density 
spiral cedar
However, if someone pokes a hole and makes your ship a steel shell + water, instead of air, it means you’re now denser than water
So you sink
tribal mortar
So
spiral cedar
Hence compartmentalization and reserve buoyancy, to ensure that you have enough air left over to prevent sinking
tribal mortar
Is the area of air surrounded by the main armour belt?
spiral cedar
There is protected volume (compartments behind armor) and unprotected volume (unarmored)
tribal mortar
Okay
spiral cedar
The ends of the ship, and the bottom, and the upper works, tend to be unarmored
So you can’t rely on them totally once the action starts
tribal mortar
So why have a fuel tank behind an unarmoured section?
spiral cedar
So you want a certain amount of protected reserve buoyancy so that some holes in the unarmored areas doesn’t sink the rest, even if the armor is not penetrated
Because armor is heavy, so the more you have the harder it is to stay positively buoyant. So you have to prioritize armor over the most critical areas, and leave other areas less armored or unarmored
Machinery spaces and magazines get priority; if those are destroyed your ship may be doomed
spring briar
Ship fuel is also less dense than water and you don’t want that stuff to be behind armor for safety reasons
tribal mortar
Would fuel not be a critical part?
spiral cedar
You can have multiple oil bunkers tho, so you can stick the oil in various places
aka redundancy
The US, for instance, used oil in their torpedo defense systems, allowing it to serve a dual role of both absorbing torpedo fragments and acting as fuel
And since the TDS is sectioned into many small compartments, a hole in one doesn’t doom the entire fuel supply
spring briar
And stuff like pumps also help prevent large loss of fuel
tribal mortar
And since the TDS is sectioned into many small compartments, a hole in one doesn...
What does TDS mean?
spiral cedar
Torpedo defense system
tribal mortar
Oh, okay
spiral cedar
Fuel oil is denser than water and immiscible, so water will float on top of bunker oil. So as long as they don’t enter machinery or pipes together, you can usually safely draw off the water from the oil
Assuming you have the pumps in place to do so of course
Anyway
spring briar
Fuel oil is denser than water and immiscible, so water will float on top of bunk...
Prove that fuel oil is denser
Prove it
tribal mortar
They said fuel oil.
spring briar
Still, prove it
tribal mortar
Fuel oil has to be much thicker than regular oil.
spiral cedar
Recall that in the later stages of battle, prior to abandon ship, Bismarck was l...
While we don’t have an exact chart of which compartments were flooded by damage by this point, based on her design, estimates usually range around ~10000 tons of water were aboard Bismarck prior to her abandon ship and scuttling
tribal mortar
I forget the reasoning, though.
manic latch
British trying to scrap every warship they find after ww2
spring briar
Even crude oil is less dense than water
somber knoll
Anyway
btw Jaba, how were the diesels (the fuel not the engine) used on those days compared to both modern diesel and fuel oil? Marine diesel fuel are usually very crude for starters.
ivory ridge
spiral cedar
While we don’t have an exact chart of which compartments were flooded by damage ...
This is enough to exceed Bismarck’s reserve buoyancy
tribal mortar
Alright
somber knoll
2 stroke diesels especially don't really need that much of a requirement with their fuel.
spiral cedar
So Bismarck was in a sinking condition
spring briar
Jaba 
spiral cedar
But it would take a long time
spring briar
Prove thy claim
spiral cedar
Prove thy claim
No
manic latch
Man it's still weird US use Burkes when designs of other Nato nations are pretty advanced 
spring briar
delicate beacon
why scuttle Bismarck
somber knoll
Man it's still weird US use Burkes when designs of other Nato nations are pretty...
Blame the slow Zumwalt dev 
delicate beacon
Wouldn't scuttling reduce the chance for survivors?
manic latch
~~Blame the slow Zumwalt dev~~ <:LaffeyDrink:468866532408295454>
Should have been it's own class not Burke replacement
tribal mortar
If anything, it brings the chances of survivors up, would it not?
spiral cedar
Wouldn't scuttling reduce the chance for survivors?
If the priority had been to maximize survivors, they’d have abandoned ship once Bismarck’s armament was knocked out
manic latch
If the priority had been to maximize survivors, they’d have abandoned ship once ...
No, just straight surrendering the ship to Royal Navy
That's the max option
tribal mortar
They'd have been shot then.
spiral cedar
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-016.php
All the sources agree that the scuttle order was largely irrelevant - G&D describe it as being nothing more that a routine part of the process of abandoning ship.
tribal mortar
Uhh that's a warcrime
Not if the British don't accept.
somber knoll
~~Should have been it's own class not Burke replacement~~
frikkin stealth req my dude
manic latch
Not if the British don't accept.
Why would British not accept Bismarck surrender?
tribal mortar
Cause she sank their favorite ship.
alpine onyx
spiral cedar
Anyway
spring briar
tribal mortar
Their order was to basically destroy her at all costs.
manic latch
Their order was to basically destroy her at all costs.
Then scrap her back at Britain
spiral cedar
@tribal mortar Have I, to your satisfaction, made my argument that Bismarck was “scuttled and sunk,” not “scuttled not sunk?” If so I can go into the matter of whether her armor was penetrated or not
spring briar
press 1 to confirm
somber knoll
btw Jaba, how were the diesels (the fuel not the engine) used on those days comp...
jaba pls? or if anyone can answer?
tribal mortar
<@456226577798135808> Have I, to your satisfaction, made my argument that Bismar...
No, no, that won't be necessary.
spring briar
press 2 to receive a giftcard
tribal mortar
I'll accept it.
tribal mortar
press 2 to receive a giftcard
2
alpine onyx
2.3
manic latch
spring briar
you have received: 1 month 1945 german ration
tribal mortar
That's not very much.
ivory ridge
exotic scarab
spring briar
paper is nourishing
exotic scarab
its a toys r us giftcard
tribal mortar
its a toys r us giftcard
That's harsh.
spiral cedar
Anyway, onto the armor
spring briar
oh no
spiral cedar
Oh
exotic scarab
manic latch
https://tenor.com/view/no-more-unemployment-checks-mickey-mouse-goofy-donald-duc...
Omg is that CookingCompanions reference
delicate beacon
If you want I have some Dutch gift cards
spiral cedar
Seeya later then
tribal mortar
Bye
spiral cedar
spring briar
~~Omg is that CookingCompanions reference~~
USSR in 1930 reference
delicate beacon
Thank you Monty for starving our population 
tribal mortar
I did like this, tho.
spring briar
good
manic latch
USSR in 1930 reference
I will feed you to Grozny
spring briar
whoms't???
spiral cedar
Grozny Grad, where the Shagohod is being built
manic latch
whoms't???
Likely one of least popular NP girl. But also gets most skins
spiral cedar
No
spring briar
why not
spiral cedar
Because I’m on vacation
somber knoll
Speaking of Bisko's damage reports, what about her sister Derpitz?
spiral cedar
I have a lovely book on Tirpitz
spring briar
tepitz got assaulted on her belly
manic latch
Chat when Iron Blood Tag enters
somber knoll
Boom, torps
spiral cedar
Called Hunting Tirpitz
exotic scarab
exotic scarab
but can we talk about what effects being forced to end all trade with britian had on the hanseatic cities under bonpartist occupation
sullen canyon
Wasn't Tirpitz stuck in the Fjords?
spiral cedar
Yeh
manic latch
Wasn't Tirpitz stuck in the Fjords?
Lancaster target ye
somber knoll
Called *Hunting Tirpitz*
unpopular opinion: she should have gone shelling Alabama in the Atlantic or die trying tbh.
spiral cedar
Yes
delicate beacon
Mommy, there's monsters outside.
No Tirpitz, that's the Royal Navy.
spring briar
but can we talk about what effects being forced to end all trade with britian ha...
the continental system was dumb
manic latch
unpopular opinion: she should have gone shelling Alabama in the Atlantic or die ...
Thats like saying Yamato should have pushed in battle of Midway
spiral cedar
The British Tallboy bombs were actually fuzed too short; they tended to detonate just prior to the main armor deck rather than after getting through it
spring briar
so?
spiral cedar
In one case it detonated during penetration of the armored deck and it just unexisted the armor plate in the area
sullen canyon
exotic scarab
I thought french people worshipped the corsician consul
spring briar
?
exotic scarab
manic latch
but the best dictator is a dead one
Wrong. Cesare was based
somber knoll
Thats like saying Yamato should have pushed in battle of Midway
Eh, as much as I love to see Yammie bullying the Standards, I'd rather see others like a completed Tosa duking it out with Mountain Mama
spring briar
he was so based his comments were pinned on his back 44 times
exotic scarab
best gamer move of the whole french republic was the haiti revolt
manic latch
he was so based his comments were pinned on his back 44 times
Butthurts
spiral cedar
Hit No. 1 – The bomb struck the port side of the ship on the upper deck near the end of the athwartships catapult at about station 113 and penetrated to about the armour deck (3.2-in.). It is considered that it detonated while passing through the armour deck, a short distance inboard of the protective bulkhead. The bomb blew a large hole about 45 ft. long in the side plating (0.55 to 0.8-in.), extending from below the bilge keel probably to the upper deck, between stations 107 and 118. The plating at the edges of this hole was petalled outwards.
The protective bulkhead (1.8-in.) was blown outwards and the hole in it took the form of a large ‘V’, apex downwards, giving the impression that it had failed down the line of welding connecting it to the transverse bulkhead at station 111.
The main side armour in this area was probably blown off the ship’s side. The position of parts of the 110 mm. (about 4.3-in.) sloping deck armour indicated that some of the side armour had hinged outwards about the upper deck connection.
The 110 mm. (4.3-in.) sloping armour deck in the damaged area had been fractured in at least two places and was displaced outboard. A considerable portion of the 80 mm. (3.2-in.) armour deck was missing.
somber knoll
Wrong. Cesare was based
Cesare is eh (unless you're talking the non-Borgia variant).
Frikkin Machiavelli.
spring briar
best gamer move of the whole french republic was the haiti revolt
Look how Haiti turned out and tell me that again with a straight face
spring briar
probably not as today
spiral cedar
tfw France is supplying 90% of the gunpowder
spring briar
but Yorktown was really vital to the whole war so
also Lafayette's transgressions really helped shape the early history
spiral cedar
No French help —> patriot forces resort to stabbing the Brits to death with bayonets and spears —> US develops a melee weapon culture instead
manic latch
No French help —> patriot forces resort to stabbing the Brits to death with bayo...
Mexico
spring briar
France not helping america would mean a little more money for france that would dissapear in the revolution anyways
exotic scarab
spain also helped
manic latch
France not helping america would mean a little more money for france that would ...
And no Statue of Liberty later
exotic scarab
and the dutch a bit
spring briar
the dutch also
somber knoll
Also, there was a slight chance that America could sort of enlist Canadian help
spiral cedar
Not likely
spring briar
but not really noteworthy compared to literally providing half the forces and most of the ships
spiral cedar
Given how 1812 went
exotic scarab
Look how Haiti turned out and tell me that again with a straight face
isnt that because france destroyed there economy
spring briar
sullen canyon
We see Canada as that neighbor you don't pester unless it's REALLY necessary
somber knoll
Given how 1812 went
Figured, but then again 1812 wouldn't exactly happen the way it was if the Continental Army didn't get the support they had 30 years back.
exotic scarab
1812 would have gone better if britian could go full out
spiral cedar
We see Canada as that neighbor you don't pester unless it's REALLY necessary
The American sign-off had a very clear price: You pay for it and we get unrestricted access to the entire thing. In the end, the Canadians had to foot over 70 percent of the bill, pay almost all of the maintenance, and the Saint Lawrence Seaway wasn’t fully operational until 1959.
sullen canyon
Also, after that war, everytime a British politician/diplomat ever had to stop by DC they would see the charred room in the White House
I'm guessing it was to show them, "Your country did this mess, but where still around" idea I guess
spring briar
isnt that because france destroyed there economy
it has more to do with reinstating slavery
the french abolished it
but nappy was going to reinstate it
and by force as well
but the haitians won and then the whites that remained on the island were massacred
desert agate
better to be poor but independent than poor but under the french
its not like the french would have left haiti in any way shape or form better prepared for independence than the revolution did
the french have a worse history of decolonisation than the british
it's to the point where
they're still fucking in half their former colonies
exotic scarab
but the haitians won and then the whites that remained on the island were massac...
and then later they blockaded the country and made them pay what was it
like 100 million francs to be free
spring briar
50 million francs for the slave owners or smth
and then the in dependence was recognized after that
desert agate
haiti is a resourceless island with an economy that was devastated by imperialism and the revolution to the point where the only wealth that could be extracted from it could only be extracted under forced labour, and with political institutions not powerful enough to reform the economy
exotic scarab
oh and the fact that every major nation didnt want to deal with them when they were free
desert agate
theres only 1 country to blame for haitis present situation, and its the french
somber knoll
Gamer move there.
exotic scarab
so yeah while I fully support the slave revolt they very much got shafted hard
spring briar
yes
and Napoleon likely made it much worse
not that the Bourbons were any better ofc
exotic scarab
just like how he made germany worse
spring briar
what germany?
exotic scarab
he gave birth to a german-identity instead of several states
spring briar
he made the confederation of the rhine to try and govern them
exotic scarab
delicate beacon
Why not just expand the Netherlands 
spring briar
and he gave Poland a lot of its old territory back
tough quail
the world is to blame for germany
spring briar
and I mean why wouldn't he
tough quail
humanity's greatest sin
exotic scarab
i mean
spring briar
german territory is just stolen anyways
exotic scarab
that was kinda what got him further from the tsar
exotic scarab
half a million froze to death in russia cope
spring briar
remember all those countries that stole pieces of poland?
where are they now?
haha
delicate beacon
Reestablish the polish-lithuanian commonwealth
spring briar
half a million froze to death in russia cope
what does that have to do with Poland having the right to exist?
delicate beacon
remember all those countries that stole pieces of poland?
Isn't Sweden still there? 
spring briar
anyways lazer
exotic scarab
spring briar
my point is
exotic scarab
oh yeah the teutonic order still sorta exists
somber knoll
he made the confederation of the rhine to try and govern them
:PrussiaFlox:
spring briar
Eddy Hall was the first man to do the 500 kg deadlift
he was later beaten by haftor who did a 501 kg deadlift
but noone is talking about that 501 kg deadlift because Eddie hall was first
exotic scarab
i never go to the gym so I dont care
spring briar
that's ok
exotic scarab
manic latch
Because Eddy is also game of thrones guy
spring briar
I don't care about your german fantasies either
exotic scarab
I can exercise at home
exotic scarab
hesse better
manic latch
https://tenor.com/view/kerm-kermothy-kermitt-tim-timothy-gif-20831222
Me princess lifting Soyuz when she arrives
exotic scarab
well I mean
tough quail
exotic scarab
attacking on christmas is a low blow
manic latch
attacking on christmas is a low blow
Kinda chad move
spring briar
US is #1 world power now
exotic scarab
then again
exotic scarab
that totally seems like something we would do
tough quail
supreme germans that lost in the us war of independence for britian
does this mean i can blame all my gripes with the US on germany too actually
spring briar
yes
exotic scarab
yes
tough quail
i have finally reached my most efficient and powerful form
i have become
true horse
exotic scarab
return to steppe
manic latch
true horse
Centaur
spring briar
the only based germany was weimar going all progressive with gender laws
tough quail
if you can't blame germany for it, you can probably blame america for it, and then redirect it back to germany through them
spring briar
strong plank
Even the Soviet Union can be indirectly blamed on Germany
exotic scarab
exotic scarab
we can also blame england on the germans through the saxons
tough quail
that's just normal german hubris
lapis wraith
Even the Soviet Union can be indirectly blamed on Germany
how ?
spring briar
we can also blame england on the germans through the saxons
Battle of Hastings
so no
strong plank
The Germans sent Lenin back to Russia
lapis wraith
I just wanted to come in talk about new zealand tank
spring briar
if you wanna blame germany for a piece of british history, blame the hannoverian dynasty
manic latch
Speaking of Lenin
strong plank
Are born
spring briar
aka the dynasty when britain went all killy killy stealy stealy
manic latch
PR5 Lenin when 
exotic scarab
saxons were still a decent part of england even when the rule ended due to settling
spring briar
saxons are too old
spring briar
they have barely any lingering presence on the culture
strong plank
This will have an effect on the trout population
exotic scarab
oh and the queen is of german nobility
frigid karma
does this mean i can blame all my gripes with the US on germany too actually
then you must also blame it on the french
spring briar
maybe you've heard of it
frigid karma
spring briar
I mean yes
tough quail
nah
manic latch
Did Germans destroyed the Roman Empire?
spring briar
you can blame everything on France
since they literally carried everyone up until 1853?
tough quail
playing chess as both sides of the board
exotic scarab
really if you dig through history
you can find a way to blame any country for something another country did in europe
manic latch
Who blamed Switzerland
spring briar
Switzerland are so paranoia and schizo they do it to themselves
tough quail
you can blame them for every conflict by just calling them a bunch of pansies
manic latch
Claims money of the dead
spring briar
loud = funny
tough quail
war scary lets rig all our infrastructure to explode instead
spring briar
France using up all of its nobility in the 100 year war
aka
how to prevent the nobility from gaining too much power
send them off to war
dapper parcel
I thought the joke was that whenever there was huge war, there was Poland somewhere in the middle of it
spring briar
the joke is
whenever there's a war, germany invades poland
which is like the most lazy joke ever
since it only works after like 1750
exotic scarab
dapper parcel
well, there was that one (several?) time sweden invades poland
exotic scarab
you see the thing is every war in europe
spring briar
that was more the polish-lithuanian commonwealth but yea
exotic scarab
you can find the italians
spring briar
and even then it was only 4 times?
desert agate
dont worry guys we here in Australia figured out the best way of dealing with Germans
After the war ended, the camps were shut down and most of the occupants were deported
German immigration was only made legal again in 1925
spring briar
if you want a country that would fit the "gets invaded every war"-meme it would be israel
cough
I mean palestine
cough
no wait
I mean
desert agate
[unsolicited opinion on israel]
spring briar
lists off all names of Israel under every empire, kingdom, sultanate or crusader state
exotic scarab
dont worry guys we here in Australia figured out the best way of dealing with Ge...
and I thought milwaukee was bad for pointing a cannon at a theater that tried to do a german play
spring briar
based Milwaukee??
tough quail
rad
manic latch
Poor Spanish navy man
exotic scarab
like the german state was bad
manic latch
Used to be legend status
exotic scarab
but the average german immgrant wasnt trying to overthrow the government
desert agate
thats just what they want you to think
exotic scarab
spring briar
lazer
let me tell you something
both Julian Corbett and Jackie Fischer, who laid out the majority of the land and sea based strategy of Britain during WW1
absolutely hated the german empire
AND THEY WERE BRITISH
AND WON
exotic scarab
ok
but anti-german racism was still a major probelm both during and following ww1 in the united states
spring briar
it also existed less than 50 years
and somehow still managed to make prison camps in their few colonies
desert agate
was a problem world wide
exotic scarab
and I dont see how this has to do with this
tough quail
i was considering saying that the problem is that there wasn't enough of it, but that's taking the bit a wee bit too far
spring briar
I hear the anti-german talk and I would like to point you at the token anti-semitism in literally every country
britain preventing jews from entering the country from germany
exotic scarab
tough quail
unironically lets not get into racism olympics
spring briar
but yah I mean
I wonder why germans had this bad reputation before ww1 and 2 oh no
exotic scarab
tbh the US just likes being racist
tough quail
you fucking bet i do
exotic scarab
like somehow irish werent white for a while
spring briar
tough quail
ah so like italians
desert agate
exotic scarab
not even getting into the fact that terms like "white" and "colored" are more artifical then half the food you eat
desert agate
antisemitism was never huge in australia
mainly because one of our national heroes was jewish
so when antisemitism started to spike in the 20s
he just kinda went out into the streets and said
"fuck off"
exotic scarab
and because I doubt there were many jews there in the first place
desert agate
australia has historically had a pretty sizeable jewish community
exotic scarab
oh
desert agate
saw more than a few jewish war graves in gallipoli the other day
which i havent yet posted all the photos of
because it was very emotional
spring briar
because it was very emotional
desert agate
really is one thing reading about those beaches
and seeing pictures
but seeing them in person
what the fuck was churchill thinking
spring briar
he wasn't
he was refusing to believe people with more experience and even an entire foreign country
because he wanted above all else to make use of the pre-dreads
desert agate
"Optimal landing location"
i read about all the gullies that separated all the troops and caused total disorganisation in the first 48 hours
but actually seeing them you really get so much perspective
Jewish war grave at Lone Pine
at least one in every 30-40ish graves was jewish
which may not seem like much but over 50'000 Australians served there
and nearly 8000 are buried there
thats a few hundred jewish people
with a good few thousand serving
strong plank
like somehow irish werent white for a while
American prejudice before more modern times is actually quite interesting
basically whenever a new wave of immigrants arrived, everyone already in the states would set aside their differences to hate the new people
unless you were African American, then you were still pretty much screwed
delicate beacon
what the fuck was churchill thinking
You're asking that about the person that thought invading the Netherlands would be a good idea to convince them to join the side of the entente in WW1.
desert agate
worked with greece lol
but it was a mostly rhetorical question i understand that thinking was not one of churchills strong suits
desert agate
a man blessed by many thoughts but not much sense to use them
the entente literally invaded a bunch of greek islands before the greeks joined the war
including one right off the coast of gallipoli which they used as a headquarters
spring briar
I believe one of france's pre-dreadnoughts fired a warning shot which somehow was loaded and hit the parliament building
desert agate
karmas a bitch tho
spring briar
ah
Greek resistance to the Allied action ended after Mirabeau fired four rounds from her main armament into the city, one of which landed near the Royal Palace.
desert agate
fuck you churchill for sending us to die
thank you turkey for killing us and literally creating our nation
spring briar
desert agate
it was on the 25th of April, 1915, that the consciousness of Australian nationhood was born
-Charles Bean official Australian war correspondent and writer of the official Australian history of WW1
other countries had revolutions and wars
we had gallipoli
desert agate
and the British can forever go fuck themselves
manic latch
Of course Kronshtadt has 60k repair cost in War thunder
Stalingrad will get focking 80k repair cost no doubt
desert agate
use it wisely
i will shoot churchill with it
spiral cedar
Write about your waifu's characteristics
frigid karma
just think about what she'd be like if you sat down and talked down with her
delicate beacon
I have a feeling they'd all be depressed 
frigid karma
all of my headcanon OCs are either depressed or insane
spring briar
me entering fb and reddit on the birthday of bismarcks sinking
chilly osprey
A bold decision
exotic scarab
people under the age of 40 use facebook?
spring briar
Yes
chilly osprey
Believe it or not, a decade ago, it was used by teenagers
Which may seem shocking in the year 2022, but it's true
I was there
chilly osprey
Lmao that's almost the same timeframe I was in highschool
exotic scarab
your a boomer tbh
rapid junco
In fact
chilly osprey
It was almost mandatory, lots of coordination for sports stuff and clubs went through Facebook
rapid junco
I just use to get images of Brazilian warships from a retired Brazilian Navy officer
spring briar
Lmao that's almost the same timeframe I was in highschool
Class groups on fb
For good homework logistics
dapper parcel
oh god the pokecalypse
spring briar
Lol
dapper parcel
One thing we find FB still superior is for announcing missing person while wanting multi-way public engagement
dapper parcel
Decades later and everyone still can't figure out if we supposed to read twitter from top to bottom or the other way
exotic scarab
same
I only use discord,youtube and ingame chat
azur lane yes
well it did when I played
spring briar
Maybe both
chilly osprey
Twitter is useful for following specific people or organizations
Miserable to have a discussion on, however
rapid junco
Finger reveal 
sullen canyon
spring briar
I’m for real
low grail
Today is the 81st anniversary of the bismarck sinking
spring briar
Yes
spring briar
⚔️🐟
rapid junco
Although Tikuna is actually a different class from the Tupi 
But it's been ten years since her last visit to the US as i know
hushed saffron
Aight. Tried to make some kind of small patrol ship.
spiral cedar
Did this dude really say that Yamato's belt is equal to a 12" belt
delicate beacon
Seriously. Japan ship building was inferior to other countries. Even their might Kongou was ridden with problems because it was made by the Japanese. Even the old HMS Dreadnought was stronger because she was made by the English instead of the shitty Japanese!
/s
Anyways, working on stuff
sullen canyon
Wait I thought Kongou was made by the British and was sold to Japan
It's her sisters that have the problems if you ask me
unborn wyvern
that's why you have to use the old tumblr trick of adding "Lol" onto the end of your sentence to show you're sarcastic
E.g.
"Bismarck was the best WW2 ship lol"
spiral cedar
HMS Vanguard Infrequently Asked Questions (IAQ)
by Jabajabajebejebe
———
Q: Tell me more about HMS Vanguard’s main battery mountings and RPC.
A: Vanguard’s turrets were modified Courageous and Glorious mounts. The originals were designated Mark I*, and had a 20 deg max elevation, as well as an 8.8” front plate (angled back 25 deg from vertical) and 4.16” roof plates (partially angled 8 deg from horizontal). Before being fitted to Vanguard, the max elevation was increased to 30 deg, the front plate was raised to 12.74”, and the roof plates were raised to 5.88”. This new mounting received the designation Mark I/N RP 12. Remote Power Control (RPC) for the main battery was fitted only for train, not for elevation. In contrast, Bismarck’s main battery had RPC for elevation only, and US fast BBs had RPC for both elevation and train. RPC is useful because at longer ranges, even small errors in the initial elevation and train of the gun will lead to complete misses, so you want to match the actual elevation and train to the calculated elevation and train as closely as possible. However, a ship rolls and pitches due to the sea, so typically a human operator is required to make constant adjustments to match the two, and ensure the firing circuit closes when both are properly aligned. Under ideal conditions, a well-trained operator can do this just fine, but the task requires intense concentration—and operators get fatigued over the course of longer battles. US experience showed that automatic control for elevation was more necessary, as the constant elevation and depression of the guns (from switching from firing angle to loading angle and back again each firing cycle) took more concentration to follow than the generally more stable train of the turret. Thus while Vanguard’s installed main battery RPC would help reduce operator error somewhat, it did not address the primary cause of operator error.
Q: Tell me more about Vanguard’s 15” shells.
A: Vanguard received the APC Mark XVIIb and APC XXIIb for heavily armored targets, and HE Mark VIIIb for unarmored targets. Both APC shells had identical external dimensions and ballistics, and in practice were not distinguished from each other when firing. All these three shells weighed the same (1938 lb), and all were 6crh shells, where crh is a mathematical term in exterior ballistics that refers to how long the pointed head of a projectile is relative to its diameter (caliber radius head). Thus a 6crh projectile is longer than a 4crh projectile of the same caliber. The unmodernized British 15” guns received 4crh projectiles, where the shell body and AP cap were the same as on the modernized (late 1930s) shells, but with a shorter windscreen (ballistic cap) to fit into the shorter handling systems dating back to the WWI era designs. Hood, Royal Oak, and Repulse were all sunk while still using 4crh shells. British WWII-era AP shell design emphasized post-penetration detonation reliability at the expense of ability to hole thick armor in the first place, which made them best suited against thinner plates (e.g. most “treaty era” ships and smaller) but with some deficiencies against very thick plates (e.g. Yamato-thickness plates, US BB turret and barbette plates).
Q: Tell me more about supercharges.
A: Guns have various powder charges for shells, generally for shore bombardment purposes (you don't need 2500 fps to drop a shell onto some machine gun nest). They often also have alternate charges for HE/HC shells, which generally don't need to be flung as hard as the AP shells (usually lighter and don't need to penetrate armor). So you have Standard charges, and then typically Reduced charges, and potentially 1-2 more depending on ship, navy, etc. Reduced charges often cut barrel wear by an order of magnitude relative to "full" (or "standard" or "service," depending on terminology) charges. The British were fighting the Italians in the Med, but mostly allocated the old WWI BBs to the task. However, because of budget reasons, many of these still had the old 20 deg max elevations, rather than the 30-45 on more modern BBs. Thus while they could engage the Italian ships at medium range, they often found themselves under fire by Italian cruisers and battleships from long to extreme range without a way to return fire (and thus disrupt enemy fire). And since they lacked speed, they couldn't redress the situation by closing or retreating. So the British issued increased charges—"Supercharges"—to the 15" gun ships with 20 deg max elevation, so that they could reach out a 3-4 thousand more yards. Naturally, this severely increased barrel wear, and only 20 per gun were issued to ships with 20 deg max elevation, and the 30 deg elevation ships never received them.
The topic comes up with regard to Vanguard usually in the context of a hypothetical battleship matchup between Vanguard and some other BB (often Iowa, being the final built BB class of each navy). The argument is made that Vanguard would have been issued supercharges in wartime and thus their naturally higher belt penetration would balance out her otherwise inferior firepower. While Vanguard was never issued supercharges, it is possible that she could have received some (probably the 20 shell per gun allotment) had she been expected to have to engage enemy battleships. But while they do boost her range a bit, recall that a flatter-shooting shell won't be better at deck penetration, which would make up the vast majority of hits at the ranges where supercharges are necessary—which somewhat dampens the idea that they'd drastically boost performance. And, of course, it would have been a very poor idea to wear out your barrels before emptying your magazines by issuing nothing but supercharges, so there's no realistic way that supercharges would have replaced standard charges entirely.
spring briar
spiral cedar
Q: Tell me more about Vanguard’s protection.
A: Vanguard followed essentially the same protection philosophy as on the British King George V class. Because one square foot of steel plate 1” thick weighs about 40.8 lbs, British naval designers gave armor thicknesses in lbs to simplify calculations. For convenience they tended to give armor thicknesses to the neared 10 lbs (0.245”), so when a British design calls for a 560# armor plate, it is officially 14” thick but actually 13.72” thick (a 2% reduction) due to the British way of rounding the weights. Thus Vanguard had 13.72” main belt and 5.88” main armor deck over her magazines, and 13.13” main belt and 4.90” main armor deck over her machinery (about a half inch more main belt over machinery than KGV). She also had a moderate weather deck, for structural strength, resistance to gun blast, and resistance to GP bombs. The belt armor was British CA (face-hardened cemented armor) and the deck armor was British NCA (non-cemented armor). As was standard British practice, the main belt, main armor deck, and weather deck all had a thin backing of Ducol (“D”) steel for splinter reduction and structural mounting purposes. Her turret armor is described above in the section about her mountings.
After some gunnery tests, the British came to dislike the short (vertical coverage) belt of the Nelson class, and thus emphasized belt height for the KGV (and thus, Lion and Vanguard) designs. They chose not to incline the main belt amidships, preferring instead to keep a vertical belt that followed the contour of the hull. This made it easier to extend the underwater portion of the belt slightly (as many navies did during the interwar period, due to the newly discovered threat of diving shells), but the British went a step further by also increasing the above-water extent of the main belt to a deck higher than was typical design practice (~3 decks above water instead of the usual ~2). This was due to a British expectation of long, drawn-out slugging matches at medium range being the norm in the North Atlantic and North Sea, so a tall belt above water would provide more protected reserve buoyancy after significant non-critical battle damage and flooding. The heavy deck armor was to provide bomb resistance, and to allow British ships to close to medium range, where the Admiralty expected “superior British training” to provide the best results. Unfortunately, as was typical British design practice, the turret and barbette armor was comparatively poor, and the turrets especially suffered from having angled slightly inward faces (reducing striking angle) and slightly downward forward roofs (also reducing striking angle), which made the turrets even more vulnerable compared to KGV. The British relied on flashtightness and good ammo handling practices to minimize the risk of catastrophic flashfires, as had happened at Jutland.
sullen canyon
That's a wall of text to describe the finer points of Vanguard I see
spiral cedar
I just realized I never went over Vanguard’s armor penetration abilities
Oh well
No one will ask about that right
spring briar
Well it’s pretty much bog standard 15”/42 in ww2 performance
spiral cedar
“Average belt penetrators, somewhat above average deck penetrators, slightly limited by short British delay fuzes”
There
spring briar
Oof
spiral cedar
The Brits were also strict about variance, so it was consistently close to 0.025s
The US was more lax in their 0.035s nominal (true average was closer to 0.033s) fuzes, so they had more variance
spring briar
Imagine 0.025s with 0.02s variance
And imagine detonating an ap shell on a funnel
In ww2
Couldn’t be me
spiral cedar
spiral cedar
I mean, worked just fine against Dunkerque 
spiral cedar
But yeh, most common failure mode of delay fuzes is instantaneous detonation (non-delay)
frigid karma
Huh
spring briar
That good old newtons cradle effect setting the fuse off immediately
spiral cedar
(“instantaneous” typically being about 0.003s delay since that’s sort of how long it takes for the firing pin to physically move forward after the nose hits the armor)
spiral cedar
Quantum leap firing pin 
spiral cedar
The real reason for all those cordite explosions
spiral cedar
Quantum tunneling of lit cigars to Mikasa’s powder room
Quantum tunneling of German 38cm APC to Hood’s 4” magazine
spring briar
spiral cedar
Quantum tunneling of hot water pipe into powder magazine
spiral cedar
Quantum tunneling of US 16” AP Mark 8 through 150mm armor deck
sullen canyon
Since when did we get into Quantum Physics and Quantum Mechanics?
spring briar
spiral cedar
Always have been
sullen canyon
sullen canyon
spiral cedar
Quantum tunneling of 194 mm El Hank battery shell into Massy’s deck from 28000 yards away
delicate beacon
Richie
spiral cedar
How did it get there
spring briar
SHS nose when the armor is not face hardened and thicker than its HL
Wait so Bismarck sank in 44 minutes right?
spiral cedar
Something close to that
Depends on where you start the clock
Minutes later Massachusetts was 28,000 yards northwest of El Hank steering course 250 at twenty-seven knots when “a shower of wooden splinters so stunned [her] executive officer . . . that it took him a few seconds to realize the ship had been hit.” A 194-mm projectile had struck opposite of No. 2 turret on the port side, penetrated a deck and detonated against the second, protective deck, gouging an inch-deep hole. The main deck planking caught fire. There were no casualties, although one sailor’s “locker yielded thirty shell fragments varying from the size of a pea to that of a match box.” The executive officer, who was conning the battleship from a catwalk, then spotted torpedo wakes. Overriding Capt. Francis Whiting’s orders, he maneuvered Massachusetts between a spread of four torpedoes launched by Méduse at 1003 from a range of thirty-eight hundred meters. One torpedo reportedly passed five yards down the battleship’s starboard side.
delicate beacon
Jean Bart took 28 years
Should I tell you about De Zeven Provinciën later De Ruyter
spring briar
JB’s gaze alone turned massachusetts into a museum ship
delicate beacon
Still alive in Peru
spiral cedar
Between 0930 and 0935, there was a probable shell hit on the upper main battery director, which subsequently toppled over to port. One 356-mm shell passed through the port 145-mm armor belt, went across the Batteriedeck, and exploded the inner side of the 145-mm belt on the starboard side in compartment XIX. This caused a portion of that belt to be blown outward. The resultant damage can be seen on the wreck. Around this time Bismarck took a five- to eight-degree list to port as she began slowly sinking.
Once the sea reached the level of the Aufbaudeck, massive downflooding on the port side brought about a quick capsizing to port around 1040.
This G&D&J count would imply about 60-70 minutes
fervent bobcat
spiral cedar
By 1000 the stern of Bismarck was awash, and it appeared that she was slowly sinking by the stern. Fires burning everywhere created a smoky haze over the aft portion of Bismarck and the ship was listing some 20 degrees to port by 1030, and the list kept increasing slowly.
fervent bobcat
This is on the same tier as that battle where the Germans fought British that weren’t even there and sunk two of their own ships and shot down 20 of their own planes
spring briar
Vikinger
fervent bobcat
I will say though this one is even funnier
exotic scarab
https://youtu.be/moXgYEaYW54
wasnt that one made up
fervent bobcat
wasnt that one made up
No
spring briar
Good ol’ Austria being itself
rapid junco
So, the Fletcher class namesake is a homage to admiral Frank Friday Fletcher
Right?
Because i'm watching a livestream about the Fletcher class and the guy said it's actually Frank's Friday nephew
Frank Jack Fletcher
I pointed that out
But he said on US Naval Instistute and NavyPedia, it actually says it's Frank Jack
Not Frank Friday
chilly osprey
Did this dude really say that Yamato's belt is equal to a 12" belt
Just, ah, curious. Do you know who that is?
spiral cedar
Yeh
chilly osprey
Gotcha
spiral cedar
But pretend I don’t
chilly osprey
Lmao
spiral cedar
It’s from 2016
spring briar
Intriguing
maiden citrus
So, the Fletcher class namesake is a homage to admiral Frank Friday Fletcher
Rig...
afaik yes, hence my al fletcher's nickname is frank friday
chilly osprey
thousand yard stare
spring briar
spiral cedar
chilly osprey
lmao do you think I want to subject myself to such PTSD
rapid junco
afaik yes, hence my al fletcher's nickname is frank friday
Well
I didn't convinced him yet
He said it's not necessary to be dead for a person to be named to something
spring briar
Thank god I have forgotten more of those than I would’ve liked to remember
rapid junco
Well
The guy isn't an expert btw
He's starting on Youtube
He served on the navy in the 90s, on board frigate Rademaker
rapid junco
The Allen M Sumner at least he didn't mistook
The live
In fact, is about 3 DD classes
Fletcher, Sumner and Gearing
rapid junco
Why name it after FJF
Yeah
maiden citrus
the chad
rapid junco
Well
He mentioned the source as "Naval Institute"
maiden citrus
navypedia is an extremely dubious source for anything but numbers
since they like to implement opinions on pages in broken english that tend to be biased and disproven elsewhere
rapid junco
And he just mentioned Alabama having 300mm secondary gun 
chilly osprey
Navypedia is handy as a quick reference but really needs to be checked against other sources
rapid junco
He's pulling everything from memory
rapid junco
And he just mentioned Alabama having 300mm secondary gun <:HornetBruh:7218966639...
The guy i mean
rapid junco
Yes i know
spiral cedar
rapid junco
I think he's just being him i guess
I met him recently btw
The guy
Luís Cordova is his name btw
Like i said
He served on the navy
But seems he knows things in superficial level
unborn wyvern
Long Beach my beloved ❤️
spiral cedar
https://www.academia.edu/26954495/Frank_Jack_Fletcher_and_the_Withdrawal_from_Guadalcanal_August_8_1942_A_Historiographic_Essay
On the historiography of Frank Jack Fletcher’s oft-maligned “retreat” from covering the USMC forces and Turner’s amphibs during the early days of Operation Watchtower
eternal veldt
At 15.00 hours the French battleship Richelieu and two destroyers made an appearance one mile off Vanguard’s starboard beam and fired a Royal salute.The weather was still foul, however, with a wind force of 7–8 and heavy rain.
ASK doing Vanguard was planned all along the way
fierce sparrow
spiral cedar
Pairing French and British together is just asking for trouble
eternal veldt
Eh, entente cordial was signed earlier.
eternal veldt
maiden citrus
dunk can probably penetrate back
fierce sparrow
sounds like another fanfic idea...
humble mulch
spiral cedar
At 1010, with Boulonnais and Brestois spewing clouds of white and black smoke, Chazereau ordered a torpedo attack estimating the range as 11,800 meters. However, a transmission failure prevented execution, and as the division turned to starboard, an 8-inch shell plunged into Brestois’s forecastle. This exploded in the crew’s quarters and flooded the galley and cale à vin (wine locker). This was before Augusta engaged and while Tuscaloosa was shelling La Grandière, which at 1006 had ventured from the smoke shrouding the harbor to rescue Fougueux’s men. Wichita was targeting “whichever of 3 DD’s [destroyers] or Primauguet could best be seen in the smoke” and was likely the source of this blow, which, if so, was delivered from nearly 27,000 yards.
At 1012, before Boulonnais could assume her new course, Brooklyn’s rapid-firing 6-inch guns staggered the destroyer with a crippling broadside. One shell exploded in boiler room No. 1, a second hit a boiler room’s ventilators and destroyed a fuel pump, a third traversed boiler alley No. 2 and a splinter perforated a fuel bunker, a fourth hit the port engine room and exploded against a turbine causing serious flooding, a fifth punched into the mechanics’ mess, and a sixth struck the commander’s quarters and caused more flooding. Boulonnais shuddered to a stop and started to sink. Brooklyn’s report does not mention this success. Instead it complains that “enemy destroyers were continually dodging in and out of a very effective and extensive smoke screen. This ship was never able to continue firing on a given target more than a minute or two before losing it again in the smoke screen.”
maiden citrus
the smoke screen of the grim reaper apparating to take the destroyer away, yeah
spiral cedar
Frighteningly good shooting
(Just ignore the thousands of other shells that didn’t hit anything)
maiden citrus
6 out of 15 on a salvo is an act of god yeah
but that's funny they thought the dd had escaped into a smokescreen when it got nailed so hard it was the smokescreen
spiral cedar
Massachusetts opened fire at 1030 from a range of 30,000 yards. She went to rapid-fire five minutes later at a destroyer. Even though her gunners complained of the smoke and difficulty in acquiring targets, they claimed four hits. In fact, Massachusetts was shelling the immobile Boulonnais and sank a boat that had embarked the body of Boulonnais’s captain.
Does sinking a boat at 30,000 yards while missing the intended target count
Tho I guess the range probably closed a bit between open fire and the hit
maiden citrus
lol
spiral cedar
At 1105, after discharging five salvos at ranges up to 17,000 yards at a destroyer on the edge of the smoke screen, Augusta’s guns also fell silent and she headed east toward the transports. Patton commented, “We had lunch—naval war is nice and comfortable.”
And yes, that’s the Patton—he was waiting to be dropped off to lead the landings
“The joint planning carried out by Patton’s and Hewitt’s staffs was often stormy. . . . At one point the Navy considered asking the army to replace Patton with someone easier to work with.”
eternal veldt
Not exactly first sight for Dunk, given that she was present at the Spithead review
The two likely met face to fsce prior
spiral cedar
The two likely met face to fsce prior
Slow burn
At 1025 Augusta joined the fight, forcing Patton to witness more naval action. He recalled, “I was on main deck just back of number two turret leaning on the rail when one [shell] hit so close that it splashed water all over me. . . . Some of the people got white but it did not seem very dangerous to me—sort of impersonal.”
eternal veldt
More like realizing you've been NTR'd
So you give her an ultimatum or it's divorce
(it's divorce, because the divorce papers were jumbled up)
spiral cedar
Hood really got around
At 1008 when she was 13,000 yards northwest of Cape Fédala the cruiser’s executive officer reminded Capt. Francis C. Denebrink that he had been steering a straight course for “some time” (actually twelve minutes) and recommended a course change. Denebrink ordered the wheel over 25 degrees left and at that instant saw five torpedoes streaking toward his ship. Amazone had just launched a spread of six (one got stuck in the tube) from 2,500 meters. Brooklyn swung 90 degrees left as tracks ran down the starboard side—the closest seventy-five yards away. At the same moment Boulonnais and Brestois opened fire and straddled the light cruiser. At 1012 Brooklyn radioed Rear Admiral Hewitt, “Am engaging two enemy cruisers.” The flagship was north of the transports refueling a plane and preparing to put Patton ashore, but the general had to wait. Hewitt radioed at 1015, “Augusta coming to your assistance.”
Man, the Americans really got lucky with their torpedobeats this battle
On Red 2 the beach master watched a loaded LCPR attempt to land. “The boat started in on the back of a wave which, I estimated, was 12 to 15 feet high. The boat’s speed was a little too great and it crossed the crest of the wave while still about a hundred yards from shore. The boat was thrown end over end and swamped.” Because of this and similar incidents, he suspended beach landings and diverted boats into Fédala Harbor. To cut turnaround time the transports moved inshore at 1130. Patton himself, after spending the night at the Hôtel Miramar, complained in his diary, “The beach was a mess and the officers were doing nothing.” He spent several hours kicking and cursing and took credit for the beach master’s decision to use Fédala Harbor.
eternal veldt
Where's this from? Combat reports?
spiral cedar
Torch by O’Hara
spiral cedar
What’s the mystery
narrow herald
hi, does anyone know if the AFCT in the game is Mk X or if they all look the same?
spiral cedar
At the same time, Wildcats buzzed Fougueux, killing a navigation officer, the helmsman, and signals personnel. At 0845 Ranger started launching fifteen SBDs “to intercept submarines and light craft.”
At 0850 an 8-inch salvo fired from 16,700 yards landed alongside Fougueux, causing minor flooding.
As American destroyers skirmished with the French warships northwest of Fédala, TG 34.1 steamed away, stern turrets engaging Fougueux, Frondeur, and L’Alcyon to the south. At 0940 a 16-inch round fired from 12,000 yards crashed into Fougueux. This, the first direct hit obtained by an American warship, crumpled the destroyer’s bow up to the quarterdeck, drove the stem underwater, and set the bridge afire. Fougueux rapidly flooded and Commander Sticca ordered the crew to abandon ship. Frondeur maneuvered to assist and came under Tuscaloosa’s fire from 15,000 yards. At 0946 an 8-inch round slammed through Frondeur’s bridge from the port side, spraying the area with splinters, killing the gunnery officer and wounding six men. Another round fell near the stem without exploding and a few large fragments pierced the hull. Nonetheless, Frondeur held steady toward Fougueux, which was drifting to a halt. However, when Sticca signaled that he did not require assistance, Frondeur followed L’Alcyon to join the 5th DT three miles east.
O’Hara credits Massy
Citing Saibène, L’Adroit, 140; Caroff, Les débarquements, 172.
frigid karma
From another source I read
It basically said “lmao we have no clue who hit who at Casablanca with the amount of fire”
eternal veldt
We dont exactly have photos of the AFCT Mk X
Will double check with Burt's book, I yielded and bought a copy
What the fuck, so Massy smashed Fougueux, Milan, AND Jean Bart
Or was it Milan, I forgot
Yeap, Milan, not Malin
spiral cedar
At 0921 Massy’s logs indicates she had opened fire on the DDs/DLs and fired a total of 35 salvos of 3-9 shells each until finally losing targets in the smoke at 0951 and checking fire. She reports a range of 11500 yards at 0935, which increased to 30000 yards at 1016, implying the range is opening, so 12000 yards at 0940 aligns with the log
eternal veldt
Massy going for a foursome
spiral cedar
Yeap, Milan, not Malin
Malin, which had been detached from Dakar for a refit, had no hope of getting under way. In any case, at 0806 a 16-inch shell landed between Malin and the jetty. The impact riddled the vessel with enormous splinters, killing seven and wounding five. The projectile’s cap traveled eighty feet, flooding the boiler and engine rooms and causing a 13.5-degree list.
The 16- and 8-inch shells along with the bombers destroyed or damaged much of the commercial shipping in the harbor as well. The newly arrived passenger ships Porthos, Savoie, and Lipari were still crowded with civilian evacuees from Dakar. They had started disembarking at 0545, and when the first shells came screaming into the harbor hundreds of passengers fled the docks. At 0736 a 16-inch projectile smacked Porthos, which was tied to the head of the commercial môle. She capsized, suffering twenty-four dead and ten wounded.
Lipari, Savoie, and the tanker Ile d’Ouessant were moored along the Delpit Basin’s commercial môle. At 0750 an 8-inch shell gouged a ten-foot hole in Lipari near the waterline, killing six and sparking an intense fire that took days to burn itself out. Savoie absorbed two 16-inch rounds at 0752, followed by several near misses. At 0820 a shell exploded in her engine room. The battered liner ultimately capsized with three killed and thirteen wounded. A pair of 16-inch rounds smashed Ile d’Ouessant at 0755 and she sank rapidly with one killed. Fauzon and Ile de Noirmoutier were moored behind Jean Bart along the Delande Quay. Sixteen-inch shells passed through Fauzon at 0800 and 0815, but the ship remained afloat. A 16-inch round ripped Ile de Noirmoutier at 0810 and caused major flooding. The bombardment also sank the Italian freighter San Pietro along with two trawlers and four fishing boats.
spiral cedar
Gimme a min
spiral cedar
Yeap, Milan, not Malin
Massachusetts delivered some telling blows despite her radar and spotting difficulties. At 0956 Milan was twenty-seven hundred yards north-northwest of Oukacha steaming southwest when ships nearby saw her disappear in a giant green geyser. A 16-inch shell fired from the impressive distance of 28,000 yards smashed through the contre-torpilleur, exploding in the No. 2 crew’s quarter and rupturing the hull to starboard at the waterline. Splinters wreaked havoc, destroying the radio room and cutting through the sick bay. Some penetrated all the way to the bow. Fires erupted and spread rapidly. With more than a hundred casualties Milan turned into the wind to contain the flames and slowly drifted toward Roches Noires while survivors jettisoned ammunition and torpedoes.
spiral cedar
How many rounds spent in total by Massy, if recorded?
Massachusetts ceased fire at 1016 when she was eighteen miles west-northwest of El Hank. She reversed course to the east at 1018. As the battleship returned toward Casablanca she could observe “4 cruisers and 4 destroyers at the entrance to the harbor” with “2 cruisers badly afire.” She had expended 580 16-inch rounds.
At 1016, 580 rounds
Here’s the end of battle ammo expenditure
Throughout the battle, including the initial shore bombardment, Augusta fired 794 rounds in 104 salvos. Brooklyn shot 2,691 6-inch rounds. Massachusetts expended 798 16-inch rounds, Wichita 1,263 8-inch rounds in 170 salvos and 350 5-inch, and Tuscaloosa nearly 1,300 8-inch. Wainwright fired 710 rounds, Mayrant 670, Rhind 144, and Jenkins 110.
For the French, Jean Bart fired just seven main battery rounds: Primauguet 512, Milan 300, Albatros 420, Fougueux 120, Frondeur 300, L’Alcyon 180, Brestois 120, Simoun 30, and La Grandière 113. Fougueux and Boulonnais sank offshore while Primauguet, Milan, Albatros, Frondeur, and Brestois were heavily damaged. From Gervais de Lafond’s original force only L’Alcyon remained effective. On the American side Massachusetts was hit twice with minor consequences. Her own gun blasts caused more damage. After the action “heavy steel fixtures were torn loose from their fastenings. . . . Steel doors in some cases stood swinging idly on their hinges, bent and useless.” Brooklyn absorbed one glancing hit. Wichita took one heavy hit. A 138.6-mm shell knocked the destroyer Ludlow out of the battle.
eternal veldt
Roughtly 64 rounds per barrel, assuming it's even
Not enough to wear out the barrel I reckon.
spiral cedar
Patton was criticized for allowing the administration to retain power, and many Frenchmen were likewise displeased by the outcome. Béthouart barely escaped execution for treason. When Hewitt paid a courtesy call on Michelier on 13 November, he was a little bemused to see two unexploded 16-inch shells mounted on either side of the entrance to naval headquarters. It was, he later wrote, “a truly French touch.”
Tbh, sounds like a good trophy given the circumstances
eternal veldt
Placing unexploded ordnance around like this is concerning though 
eternal veldt
@narrow herald just a generic ACFT, as far as I'm aware of.
narrow herald
oh thnx
eternal veldt
There is no visual appearance anyway, given that this thing is in the internals of the ship.
I'll take a look at the general arrangement plan of the ship, hang on.
narrow herald
i wonder if the difference in the models is just performance
spiral cedar
Me log, you beaver
eternal veldt
There it is
Not sure if the controls board is supposed to what the game is trying to depict
Lots of magazines and cabins around, ngl
narrow herald
hmm seems like it
narrow herald
eternal veldt
That said, I low key prefer this look a bit more 
narrow herald
what library is this from?
eternal veldt
National Maritime Museum in Greenwich, I'm afraid
narrow herald
hmm will have to check next time I go there
eternal veldt
Show the goodies if the archives let you in.
narrow herald
kek
the kgv model is rlly nice tho
worth the trip to see that alone
didnt go into the library last time due to lack of time, but I think it's public access
spring briar
Vanguardn’t
jovial elm
I think sprung decks are a good contender for the greatest naval shitpost in history
spring briar
like a deck with springs under it?
manic latch
Hmm
After hard thinking
Maybe Vanguard did have better Fire control than Iowas
Type-274 Fire Control radar + Admiralty MK-10 fire control table
eternal veldt
Type 274. Although the set was viewed as the most accurate and up-to-date fire control system for a ships main armament in existence at that time which was also coupled to a superb Admiralty Fire Control Table which gave the range and bearing plots, the tests showed there was terrible trouble with the commutator and other connections.
manic latch
```Type 274. Although the set was viewed as the most accurate and up-to-date fir...
oh
eternal veldt
```Type 274. Although the set was viewed as the most accurate and up-to-date fir...
Watch a certain someone use this as ironclad fact that Vanguard is 100% shit and would be better off as scrap iron
dapper parcel
At least commutator failure shouldn't be directly related to the radar data quality itself 
dapper parcel
what post war?
maiden citrus
the ship commissioned in 46
eternal veldt
~~what post war?~~
From Friedman's?
fierce sparrow
jovial elm
like a deck with springs under it?
A rubber deck on an aircraft carrier designed so that carrier aircraft didn't need landing gear
Ie all aircraft would belly land
eternal veldt
Protection scheme, I understand, Riche. What about the transom stern?
spring briar
I don't think it was a necessary choice
at all
they could've easily enlarged the props a bit or played around with the gearing
eternal veldt
The flat stern, which had first minelayer Adventure as completed in first time in any British capital ship order to save weight and simplify construction. Other arguments advanced in favour of the flat stern, which was to become the standard pattern in the British and foreign navies, were that any hull structure above the rudder post merely created extra drag without adding anything in efficiency, while the stern wave, travelling faster than the hull itself, actually pushed against the flat section and thereby assisted speed. 
I think a transom stern isn't necessarily bad, provided it isn't as destructive as the case of the (ironically) mentioned Adventure
which pushed mines back to the ship (!!!) as a minelayer
spring briar
that is often stated
but you have to realise it creates eddie currents under the water that also pull on the ship harder
dapper parcel
well, that's the whole point of transom
spring briar
so what you are gaining in that aft wave crashing back onto the stern
you are also losing in the water itself
especially at that scale
I would do an energy balance on it but I'm still in uni for now so
eternal veldt
I'm not exactly an engineer, so let me put this in dumb layman language: The water pulling back negates the positive effects, and thus nullifying the claimed benefits of a transom stern?
spring briar
normally, ship hulls have a double tear drop shape
which has the lowest drag coefficient of any shape
but a transom stern creates eddies behind the flat part
and I don't think those eddies get negated by the reversed wave unless they are pushing her at very low speed
dapper parcel
It depends on if you can make the transition clean or not, which also imply that transom only works best at limited range of speed in which it was designed for
Tbf the same deal with bulbous bow
spring briar
yeah I'm just not sure if it is worth it on vanguard considering she's never gonna be running at the same speed anyways
I found a paper on transom sterns and i'll read through it
but I believe the lost volume is not worth the small gain in efficiency
especially not aft
eternal veldt
As I'm not too well versed, I can only take your word for it, but if it didn't work out well, I somehow suspect they'll stop using it in the post-war ships.
dapper parcel
The lost volume provides little buoyancy anyway, and need to be cantilevered off. So even on purely structural point I think it still worth
eternal veldt
Yet, as stated, the practice of transom sterns seems to be continued on warships, British ones especially.
spring briar
I WOULD believe in the transom working if it was coated in some sort of hydrophobic material, which has been proven to drastically reduce drag
the lost volume is less important on modern ships as opposed to a battleship
eternal veldt
Also, just checking. I'd think your major complaint on the protection scheme is the lack of an inclined belt?
spring briar
I'm not doubting the transom stern, I'm doubting its application on a battleship weighing 45k tons
delicate beacon
Dont transom sterns have more volume because they stretch the shape then cut it off to the same length?
spring briar
depends on how you define your model
cause you can just as easily chop a piece off the back
just don't chop off your rudder
eternal veldt
On Vanguard I think it's more so "chopped off"
spring briar
like
if Vanguard is moving fast enough to have most of the transom in contact with "air" then I can see it working
but is she ever gonna go that fast lol
eternal veldt
She could hit 29 knots, and I'm not sure if most of it will come in contact with "air" in the heavier seas of the Atlantic, if I understood what you mean correctly.
spring briar
you want this
where the water crashing down is touching the lowest part of the transom in such a way that the stern is creating the minimum amount of contact with the bulk of sea water
eternal veldt
Just curious, are you capable of doing simulations and whatnot?
Because I can provide you with a Vanguard model and you can go wild with the hydrodynamics 
spring briar
no but I can calculate the force balance
lol
I could dig up my course on hydrodynamics
anyways
TL;DR on Vaguard the transom is sorta wasted
eternal veldt
I unfortunately stopped dealing with physics after middle school, so I'm pretty much an idiot when it comes to ballistics, hydrodynamics and the like.
spring briar
like
by the 1940's you'd expect them to be capable of making a battleship with over 30 knots of speed without weird min maxing
am I being a bully to Vanguard again without realising?
delicate beacon
No you're just upholding French standards onto British ships 
eternal veldt
Also, just checking. I'd think your major complaint on the protection scheme is ...
I'd just like to check with this as well.
spring briar
Also, just checking. I'd think your major complaint on the protection scheme is ...
it is mostly the combination of no inclined belt + an extra deck protected by armor
dapper parcel
It's weird actually, since that is arguably a feature if you consider the most likely threat forward will be from dive bombers
spring briar
just deck armor
and enough layers
the strat with vanguard's armor was to allow her to close to medium range
thing is, angled armor is still better for that regardless
ivory ridge
spring briar
spiral cedar
the strat with vanguard's armor was to allow her to close to medium range
That's more for KGV tbf. Brits were warmed up to longer range fighting by latewar. They kept the layout for Vanguard to avoid having to redesign
chilly osprey
ooooooohhhh I did not realize Jordan & Caresse's book on French armored cruisers was on scribd
I guess I know what I'm reading for the rest of the day
spring briar
lol
it'll be a good read
they really surprised me
one of the most forgotten aspects of naval history no less
chilly osprey
I'm glad they're going back and covering them. I'm torn between hoping that they either do one on protected and torpedo cruisers of the era (or early torpedo boats and destroyers), or that they move from their recent articles in Warship on Cold War designs and do a book that covers more modern MN cold war ships.
chilly osprey
Ironclads would be pretty cool
The whole period of the 1860s to 1880s of ironclad battleships gets so little attention
spring briar
@delicate beacon I don't wanna add Dunkek and Strasbourg to the conversation in the wows discord
it would be too sad for the others
delicate beacon
night heart
hello
spring briar
hi
delicate beacon
Gonna do France and Germany first
spring briar
@chilly osprey is this yours?
delicate beacon
Italy maybe next
chilly osprey
It is not
chilly osprey
¯_(ツ)_/¯
spring briar
your style is just different from the usual black white barf of excel
chilly osprey
Basically just 'use outlines', put titles in white on black, and then color boxes when I want to distinguish categories beyond columns and rows
Basically whatever makes the information more digestible
spring briar
color
chilly osprey
alpine onyx
Graphic design is your passion
desert agate
phoenix where do i get more of your exel thingies anyway
unde has posted a few i think
didnt realise you made them
chilly osprey
Honestly I don't usually make them freely available, I just tend to screencap them and post when they're relevant in conversations. At which point people sometimes grab them and repost them themselves
desert agate
ah righto lol
chilly osprey
lol
spring briar
people are lazy and just let phoenix do the research
alpine onyx
Oi
alpine onyx
I do add my info to his tables, but then demand the full table in return
chilly osprey
^
desert agate
the theft will continue until morale improves
alpine onyx
desert agate
chilly osprey
To be honest, most of my tables start out as me trying to figure something out, organize something, or trying to make sense of a bunch of data.
As a result most of my sheets end up being mostly sheer, unadulterated chaos, and then I have one area or tab of the sheet where I put whatever all that chaos has produced into a presentable form.
alpine onyx
Your tables are still much better than what I'd deliver
delicate beacon
Colbert is post war you Richie fool
alpine onyx
looks at currently ongoing bouyancy research on the Biskos
alpine onyx
realizes it's wild scribbling on paper that no one (including me) will ever understand once I'm done
cries
dapper parcel
meanwhile hundreds of notepad++ tabs that I don't even recognize what they were
desert agate
average conversation between me and a bud
talking shit about me fam?
spring briar
chilly osprey
Result of me trying to see if I could establish any kind of pattern between ship costs and overall size/era over the pre-dreadnought/dreadnought era just so I wouldn't be talking entirely out of my own ass on a paper covering the shift in British foreign policy towards the Anglo-French Entente
(top right is borderline nonsense)
dapper parcel
where's the yearly inflation rate correction?