history

[dapper parcel]

Instead of weight saving, I'd be surprised if concentrating so much weight and stress in one place didn't compromise on overall structural integrity and/or have negative effect in additional structure to support

nelson that is

[jovial elm]

Didn't seem to matter for the rich class or the Nelrods

Then you have the planned N3 class which was ABC

[jovial elm]

Both having heavier main armaments than the KGV class btw

[frigid karma]

“We should put the turrets close together to minimize citadel length and conserve the amount of armor needed”

“We need them far apart to prevent a massive explosion from taking out all of them at once”

Something changed

[jovial elm]

What changed?

Unironic question

[dapper parcel]

ABQ is quite a compromise between distribution of firepower, concentration of armor, and keeping engineering spaces tightly coupled

[jovial elm]

Yeah, I like ABQ even if it is ugly as sin

[dapper parcel]

It's just weird seeing so much "free" decks below the bridge

[jovial elm]

Agreed

Sorry not sure why that image sent

[spiral cedar]

Yes, they tried it out

[jovial elm]

What were the issues with the nelrods

Not counting the aluminium issues

Anode cathode catastrophe

[dapper parcel]

Do you count the misguided 16" gun philosophy

[spiral cedar]

I'll check my copy of Nelson to Vanguard later today when I can

[jovial elm]

I mean in relation to the ABC

[maiden citrus]

it also can make your armored raft too short, such as in the nelsons

there's guns together to reduce citadel length and magazine area but then there is also too close together and you sacrifice survivability of the area 'whoops all magazine' and flotation space

[tough quail]

nelson has a relatively longer citadel to the ship length than iowa and richelieu though

[maiden citrus]

iirc iowa's floatation space was something the usn didn't like but it is still longer than nelsons

[tough quail]

iowa's citadel covers a bit less than 54% of her waterline length

nelsons is over 58%

[maiden citrus]

iowa is also like 20% tiny sharp bow

her flotation space of her armored citadel can still float her

[tough quail]

and gigantic wide stern

[dapper parcel]

and BCR (or whatever the bureau was at that point) absolutely hate the bow

[tough quail]

i really doubt nelson is gonna have any seriously worse issues than iowa would

[maiden citrus]

iirc nelson's unarmored ends flooding was a concern because they weren't sure if she would actually float with her citadel in tact, I forget where I read that from though

iowa is borderline and so was rich

[tough quail]

the glorious short citadel + internal belt dream team

[jovial elm]

That is less an issue with ABC and more an issue with nelrods displacement

[maiden citrus]

well it's also somewhat one of the goals of abc, is it not

[jovial elm]

Yes, obv but nelrods had a lot of issue associated with displacement limitations

Ie, they could have added displacement and done more with it, kinda like how the didos were too cramped because they were built to a displacement

Ok, here is another one,

Would you consider torpedos to be a form of asymetric warfare

[maiden citrus]

yes

[strong plank]

weren't the nelsons more or less designed the way they were to cram all the desired features into treaty limitations

[jovial elm]

Yes

[tough quail]

g3 downscale and all that

[jovial elm]

Biggest issues with teh Nelrods were the 2 screws

If they did take a hit to the stern they were dead

[maiden citrus]

could be worse, could've had 3

[jovial elm]

Why is 3 worse?

3 is still bad but not as bad as 2 as far as I can tell

[maiden citrus]

3 basically adds one along the centerline of your ship and makes things awkward, while not really providing the benefit of 4

so it takes away more than it adds

very few ships use 3

[jovial elm]

Yes but you can still move after a prop is damaged

unlike 2

[jovial elm]

Mostly because it was a technological dead end, like german jet engines of ww2

Was there a reason why Bismark used 3?

[maiden citrus]

afaik it was because of a requirement for high speed with tiny space aft

triple shafts combine all the worst problems of a single-shaft layout and a twin shaft system. About the only advantage of the triple shaft layout is that it eliminates the vulnerability of the single shaft layout to mechanical damage or accident. The design hydrodynamics is such that the effects of the centerline screw actual degrade the efficiency of the wing propellers.

[jovial elm]

I have read that somehwere before

Do you play warthunder btw?

Opinions on hood vs Bayern in that game

[maiden citrus]

I have not played for a while but have played

also afaik you should be able to steer on two shaft using the rudder, the centerline third screw also makes vibration issues

I like bayern a lot as a ship personally though

[jovial elm]

Fairs

Bayern is more of a contemporary to R class that QE in many ways

[maiden citrus]

unfortunately bayern is such a ship with triple shaft

[jovial elm]

Didn't realize that

[maiden citrus]

they weren't happy with that point it seems, but other than that I feel they are fantastic ships for the time

[rapid junco]

Since today is May 25th

I'll post images of the Argentine ships that shares name with today date

@delicate beacon This one is also for you
Since it was a former Dutch carrier

[rapid junco]

@ivory ridge Since it is Made in Italy

[ivory ridge]

Mini Trento my beloved

[maiden citrus]

pretty

what ship is the 2nd one

[rapid junco]

All the ships share the same name
25 de Mayo (25th of May)

[ivory ridge]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_Veinticinco_de_Mayo_(C-2)

Mini Trento

"heavy" cruiser with 6 190mm guns

[maiden citrus]

I see I see

[tribal mortar]

That's more like a light cruiser, tho I guess that's the reason you said it like "heavy"

[maiden citrus]

huh, looks like it did a pretty good job for the weight

[rapid junco]

And there's also the Almirante Brown
Sister ship of the Veinticinco de Mayo

[ivory ridge]

it's above 155mm so it counts as heavy

[tribal mortar]

So not as much armour?

[rapid junco]

The class was meant to be 3
The 3rd was cancelled
And the 3rd became La Argentina
An Argentine Arethusa class

[thorny scarab]

Heavy and Light is determined by caliber, not by Armor class.

[tribal mortar]

Okay

Otherwise, the Northampton-class would be light cruisers.

I understand now.

[maiden citrus]

well, the pensacolas would

but yeah it's gun size

[ivory ridge]

tfw better belt than Trento

by uh

1mm

[maiden citrus]

the baby trentos do have less armor than I'd like but like

lol they're very light displacement

[tribal mortar]

The reason I said the Northampton-class was their armour was not very thick compared to other heavy cruiser classes, which is actually the reason they are less dressed in Azur Lane.

[thorny scarab]

"The heavy cruiser was a type of cruiser, a naval warship designed for long range and high speed, armed generally with naval guns of roughly 203 mm (8 inches) in caliber, whose design parameters were dictated by the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922 and the London Naval Treaty of 1930."

[ivory ridge]

non-members of the treaties tend to have weird calibers as well

looking at you, kirov class

[maiden citrus]

eh I wouldn't use azur lane as an example, witchita has light armor in game

[ivory ridge]

ironically both of them are inspired from italian ships

[tribal mortar]

Huh.

[maiden citrus]

and northampton is probably comparably protected to the admiral hipper class, which only manage a 3'' or so belt themselves

[spiral cedar]

By treaty, if up to 10,000t standard and up to 6.1" caliber, it was a CL

[tribal mortar]

Interesting.

[spiral cedar]

Up to 8" caliber, CA

Above, capital ship

[tribal mortar]

So, not exactly off topic question.

Would the British monitors be capital ships?

[maiden citrus]

yes

at least by treaty classification

[tribal mortar]

Alright

So, I recently read something that had Richelieu in it.

Did she have HE shells that used napalm to cause fires?

[maiden citrus]

hm, I'm unaware of it for sure, at least, but that doesn't sound like what HE shells want to do or are made of and such, I'd say, was it a wows joke? they often make he = napalm type remarks

[tribal mortar]

No, it was an AL fanfiction.

[dapper parcel]

with the volumetric capacity inside a shell, napalm filler probably do fuck all

[maiden citrus]

napalm was also quite an american thing and invented in 42, they did make bombs for it and rich did have contact for armament related things here but it just doesn't seem like that would be the case

[tribal mortar]

Okay, so it was entirely fiction.

Because Richelieu said that it was made by her people.

[spiral cedar]

They were "special vessels" that, like seaplane tenders and minelayers, got an exception

http://ww2ships.com/documents/doc0005-london1930.shtml

[maiden citrus]

oh, yeah, napalm was made in 42 at harvard in secret

[dapper parcel]

I think various thickened fuel were already in deployment even well before ww2
Not exactly the napalm, but would be something a today's layperson call napalm

[maiden citrus]

possibly where it comes from yeah

also if I recall they did have some sort of weird chemical shells at one point didn't they

[dapper parcel]

well, the one that spectacularly blows up her barrel was one

• was "was one"

[ivory ridge]

the only weird thing you can put in richelieu's shells was uh

gas

which uh

yeah

[frigid karma]

Kansen with gas masks

[tribal mortar]

Thats a thought.

[dapper parcel]

NBC is fair play tbh, even today

especially against warships, since the chance of civilian collateral damage is practically zero

unless you somehow spectacularly fucks up

[delicate beacon]

Eh... Nuclear is out of the question for obvious reasons.
Biological still is indiscriminate due to its contagiousness.
Chemical is basically the only discriminate and politically feasible option. So long you don't cause unneccesary suffering.

[dapper parcel]

Biological I can see
Nuclear tho is somehow doctrinally untested

especially if you can weasel your way out of using it in offensive manner

I can see the utter confusion when it comes to decide against one such tactical use. On one hand sheer reluctance to use one and fear of escalation, yet the other hand not wanting to normalize usage and almost primal desire not to be dead wrong

[frigid karma]

ok, hypothetically, let's say you fire contagion shells at an enemy ship

Wouldn't this effectively long-term mission kill the ship

because you'd certainly want the ship to be locked down and quarantined to prevent a whole pandemic in your port

[dapper parcel]

alternatively yolo to your port, now you have two problems

[frigid karma]

now i'm thinking about that zombie boat in warzone

basically a random boat floating around since the 80s that had its entire crew infected by zombies crashes in a port city and unleashes a zombie outbreak upon the whole city

[tribal mortar]

Damn.

[exotic scarab]

Wait

I thought hearts of oak was

[rapid junco]

It is

As i said before
I never saw someone stating that Rule Britannia is a RN song
I see people associating it the UK as a whole

[tough quail]

i mean

in the relevant period

you could argue the RN is the UK

[manic latch]

Yes

[humble mulch]

Given the RN was an absolutely incredible show of power projection for a very fucking long time, so using the song for anything remotely British is quite acceptable

[somber knoll]

Rule Brittanyaa

[edgy linden]

i think this is what the new UR equipment is based on

some type of firecontrol system

[spiral cedar]

No, that’s the Ford rangekeeper

US Navy ships only

[frigid karma]

thought it was a fucking kitchen at first

"UR equipment: a fucking kitchen, buffs all stats by 3%"

[maiden citrus]

ur equipment, a kitchen, you can make hot dogs here

[eternal veldt]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiralty_Fire_Control_Table

You're looking at this for Vanguard, specifically, the Mark X

Earlier ships like Hood only had the older Dreyer FCT

[frigid karma]

that's not a kitchen

[eternal veldt]

You'll need more than one kitchen anyway

Montcalm alone has six

(much to the bewilderment of the US Navy during her refit)

[static delta]

Im back

[spiral cedar]

Hello

[static delta]

hi

[alpine onyx]

[spring briar]

French culture

[maiden citrus]

le foosh en chocelute

[spring briar]

Manger, c'est gagner

[maiden citrus]

gosh I'm so hungry

[desert agate]

[spring briar]

have a borgar

[maiden citrus]

mmm, yummy, thank you france

[spring briar]

de rien

[maiden citrus]

[desert agate]

mayo for borg

[spring briar]

Vanguard is a UR

https://tenor.com/view/anime-girl-yell-cute-kawaii-gif-17505426

[desert agate]

[spring briar]

[tough quail]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/515583624083406848/976602998102949899/1652897442187.gif

[desert agate]

tonk

[tender monolith]

I knew that would get posted here

[eternal veldt]

Thats a nice kitchen you got there

Would be funny if I turn it into a 40mm ready ammo locker

[static delta]

Lancaster is a good bomber, anyone agree

[humble mulch]

One of the best from the war

[desert agate]

Everyone agrees

[static delta]

Yes

[desert agate]

Except berci but we don't talk about him

[eternal veldt]

Nah, Lancasters commited war crimes, bad plane /s

[static delta]

How?

They were night flyer's

[eternal veldt]

Bomber Command's bombing of German cities is not looked upon well and IIRC did quite a bit of casualties. Just to clarify, I'm not pulling a "Dresden war crime" card here. Just saying casualties are high, and the Germans pulled the same shit during the Blitz.

[dapper parcel]

For not being as chad as the Whitley, The flying... uhh... how is that thing even flying?

[static delta]

Yk they did that after German Ju-88 bombed london

[eternal veldt]

Precisely why I mentioned the Blitz.

And London wasn't the worst as I recall, compared to other places like Coventry.

[dapper parcel]

German's reputation was pretty much saved by their godawful navigation during the blitz

[static delta]

I actually know the Germans bombed london by accident

[dapper parcel]

Can't do warcrime if you can't hit a damn thing

[eternal veldt]

Either way, want real bombing war crimes?

[humble mulch]

[static delta]

officially were meant to bomb the RAF base near London, but over past it and the pilots were tired

[eternal veldt]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Frampol

[humble mulch]

Jfc

[eternal veldt]

Yea, that town has no military targets, it just looks like a target

[humble mulch]

Quite literally

[eternal veldt]

So we bomb the shit out of it for practice and strafe the civvies

[static delta]

My one word to that

Idiots

[eternal veldt]

According to Davies, Frampol lost 90% of its buildings and 50% of the population became casualties.[5] Only two streets remained untouched, including some houses on the outskirts.[6] Today Frampol's population is still much lower at about 1.400 people

[humble mulch]

Well it wasn’t done for on like accident, and umm had it been a legitimate military target the thought process of “hey so I know we’re at war now but our illegally made air force needs some practice what’s a good target we can use for this war” I feel it wouldn’t be as like fucking bad as this

[eternal veldt]

I don't think its far fetched to say it's done for "shits and giggles"

[humble mulch]

Yeah but there’s a reason for said shits and giggles, I don’t mean to play devils advocate, it’s an atrocity for sure which is why I don’t think saying idiot is appropriate

[eternal veldt]

No, it's a clearly conscientous act

Scum is more apt

[humble mulch]

Yeah it’s definitely clearly conscious
But usually dumb things or being an idiot is when you arent thinking

[dapper parcel]

Apparently bombing trees and beaches like every other airforces was too mainstream
What the objective that they can't do on normal firing range even? Assessing potential damage to cities/settlements?

[humble mulch]

It’s fucked up

Well usually air forces also do that type of training when they aren’t at war
And Germany kinda couldn’t have an air force and did a bunch of back door shit to get one

[eternal veldt]

Because what better way to remove the population?

Something something lebensraum, ethnic cleansing

[humble mulch]

Yeah basically

Why couldn’t it just be a normal military target like a fuel refinery

Or base

Germany pls why do you have to be horrible

[eternal veldt]

Because they're Nazis back then

[dapper parcel]

problem is that it's pretty much insignificant city. Wiping it off the earth doesn't make their conquest any easier. I don't think they even use the city for anything.

[humble mulch]

Well you can’t if you literally wipe it off the map

[eternal veldt]

If the ideology is "wipe the people off the map so the Germanic people can settle upon it"

I dont think anything matters

[humble mulch]

Yeah you have a point there

[dapper parcel]

Sometimes I can't understand their way of thinking. like... let's do this random thing first before doing actual combat

[eternal veldt]

The same kind of reasoning behind Oradour Sur Glane

Like, fuck me, they didnt even bother to check the name properly

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre

[humble mulch]

There’s a few villages like that

And by few I mean a couple dozen

[eternal veldt]

But then again, this isn't just for Germany either

Nanking's 100 beheadings competition is well known enough

And Ive posted a Japanese military convoy shooting at civvies after the British surrendering at Hong Kong, elderly and children included, for zero reason. The civvies were just curious at the procession, bystsnding on the side and they got a couple bullets to the face.

Fuck these two regimes in particular, really.

[tender monolith]

Yeah.

[gilded girder]

Thanks for reminding me the Whitley existed

[static delta]

I had to help a friend fix her PowerPoint on ww2

She put the US working with the germans when they were against

[spring briar]

[static delta]

:P

[exotic scarab]

I mean

We did kinda take their scientists and give a few ex nazis positions in nato and provide cover for them from the ussr

[maiden citrus]

both sides did to try to snatch up potential useful things

[tender monolith]

as opposed to doing the decent thing

🔫

[tribal mortar]

Operation Paperclip.

[spring briar]

operation bringing french science to the allies

[exotic scarab]

no

we didnt do that

[maiden citrus]

I will gladly bring rich over for 'science'

[spring briar]

🧑‍🍳

oui

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Stalingrad

later wrote that the city was completely destroyed without any worthwhile further targets. In the evening, Soviet searchlights illuminated the sky as the city burned bright, spewing smoke and flames into the sky, a sight that Generalmajor Wolfgang Pickert, commander of the 9th Flak Division, described as "fantastic".

[tough quail]

alright boys we did it

we destroyed stalingrad

now since we aren't encircled, it's time to- schiesse

[tepid mulch]

Japanese propaganda poster during the Russo-Japanese War

Yes, that's SKK catching Russian ships

Real life Azur Lane is horrifying

[tough quail]

that's me

more for the collection

[manic latch]

*Stalin

[tribal mortar]

What even is this?

[manic latch]

Fear of Axis

[tribal mortar]

So a WWII Allied propaganda poster?

[manic latch]

Shouldn't be too hard to get it

[tough quail]

you see

nothing brings people together

like dunking on krauts

[manic latch]

Evil Roosevelt
Evil Roosevelt

Not sure if offical

[spring briar]

where tricolor

[rapid junco]

Even the Varguist follower of my naval history Page likes Rooselvelt

Even when he despise the US

[shrewd pecan]

https://youtu.be/YjG3rOKGWGc

may of been a expensive piece of shit but god damn I look forward to it

[unborn wyvern]

Frankenstein Delano Roosevelt

[oak shore]

I’m on the Constitution rn

[humble mulch]

BRO FUCKING NICE

[tribal mortar]

Lucky bastard.

[oak shore]

The restricted access rocks

Got a tour from the CO because my dad knows her and her husband

Went to battleship cove yesterday

[tribal mortar]

Okay, now you're just flexing.

[oak shore]

A little

[tribal mortar]

Ia that a rocket?

[oak shore]

German missile corvette Hiddensee

[tribal mortar]

Oh, okay

[manic latch]

She was build in Leningrad, one of few Soviet ships US has

Tarantul class

[oak shore]

I am the captain now

[sleek folio]

Massa cool

[oak shore]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/586787723126243348/979442464643498014/7FE49B59-1297-4F6C-B7CB-57A9F365E4C9.jpg

We do a little trolling

[sleek folio]

[frigid karma]

Big mommy

[oblique glen]

LUCKYYY

Some neat historical aircraft

[oak shore]

Cassin Young

[oblique glen]

Vietnamese Lim-5 (MiG-17F), Polish MiG-17 and MiG-21, UH-34, T-28, P-47Ds, OV-10, and an Albatros

[oblique glen]

big boat vs big plane

[frigid karma]

So independence was reported to have some serious hull issues

What about the freedoms

[cinder escarp]

Independence's issues are nothing compared to the Freedoms

[digital mason]

if thats what I think it is then the big bote is ded

[oblique glen]

Yep

[exotic scarab]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaxa_(state)

So this was a thing

[digital mason]

a fuck ton of death is loaded into them wings

[spiral cedar]

Apparently in 1938 the UK had such a shortfall of non-cemented armor steel that it asked several nations, including Germany(!!), if they'd sell them some

[viscid dust]

Got Vanguard boys

[spiral cedar]

'Grats

[exotic scarab]

isnt that one of the lowest rated CoD games

[viscid dust]

You just had to ruin it

[exotic scarab]

just like the british empire ruined ireland,the middle east,africia,india,north americia ,am I missing anywhere

[viscid dust]

We do a bit of colonizing

[dapper parcel]

British empire and their funny lines

still dividing the world centuries after colonization ends

[spiral cedar]

China

[exotic scarab]

tbh that was more of a group effort by all of europe

and that one moon god that killed junkos family

[viscid dust]

https://youtu.be/8HdKCKQH7sE

[rapid junco]

Admiral Jorge Dodsworth Martins (right) with General Eisenhower

[frigid karma]

@tough quail

sometimes you learn cool stuff from quora

also 88 lmfaoooo, get bent fascists

[tough quail]

yeeeeeap

the fuckmobile

[exotic scarab]

i doubt the use of that

unless the plane is flying very low

[frigid karma]

you underestimate the power of soviet aviation

STALIN BANZAI

[cinder escarp]

WW2 was a very funny time of everyone just throwing wild ideas at the wall to see if they did anything

[frigid karma]

so was ww1 tbh

in fact more so in ww1

we had a whole medieval renaissance

[exotic scarab]

thats not really medevial

and the plate armor used in ww1 is more reissuance

but yeah in major wars you often times see crazy ideas as they try to see what can get a edge over the other side

[somber knoll]

shame they didn't think of putting a steel plate in a huge chest and back pocket at the time

[spiral cedar]

HMS Vanguard Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
by Jabajabajebejebe

———

Q: Is HMS Vanguard based on the King George V class or the Lion class?
A: Both, really. Lion herself was mostly a derivative of the KGV design, but with some technical improvements. Vanguard utilized the new machinery developments intended for the Lion class to get more speed, but was otherwise using a KGV/Lion hull with some tweaks resulting from wartime experience.

Q: Did HMS Vanguard use WWI guns? Were her guns from Courageous/Glorious/Queen Elizabeths/Hood/etc.? What about her turrets?
A: HMS Vanguard did indeed use the same British 15”/42 Mark I gun design that was used on Queen Elizabeth, Revenge, Courageous, Renown, and Admiral classes (and on some monitors). However, she did not literally receive Courageous’ or Glorious’ old guns—her guns came from a stockpile of spare barrels that had been ordered long before. However, she did inherit Courageous’ and Glorious’ mountings, though not without modification. Her turrets were modified to WWII standards, with higher max elevation (30 deg max instead of 20 deg) and thicker armor (though still below average by WWII battleship standards). Notably, she was the only British capital ship to receive RPC (Remote Power Control) for her main armament and secondary battery, though her main gun RPC was only for train (rotating the turret) and not for elevation (of the gun barrels). As a result, her mounting was unique, and was not identical to that used on any other ship. For more details on RPC, see the IAQ.

Q: Did Vanguard use WWI shells?
A: Thankfully, no! I say ‘thankfully’ because British Jutland-era shells were really, really bad! But no, she got shells that were 2 generations displaced from the last British WWI shells (and 3 generations after the Jutland shells). The modern British 15” shells had their quirks, but they performed well. Note that like most of the other modernized 15” gun ships, she had the more streamlined 6crh shells, and not the less streamlined 4crh shells of many of the unmodernized 15” gun ships. For more details on the shells, see the IAQ.

Q: What about supercharges?
A: Vanguard never actually received supercharges, like the other 15” gun ships that had the 30 deg max elevation—it was only issued to the 20 deg max elevation unmodernized ships, and only at a rate of 20 shells per gun, because it produced excessively high barrel wear. The supercharges were issued specifically to get a bit more range, as the low-elevation guns could not return fire against many Italian cruisers and battleships at extreme range in the Mediterranean. However, had Vanguard been called to service in a new war and been expected to fight enemy battleships, it’s possible she would have received a small allotment of supercharges—though certainly not as a replacement for all her standard powder charges, as the barrel wear would have rendered her guns unfit for combat far too quickly to be practical. For more details on the supercharges, see the IAQ.

Q: Is it true that Vanguard outran Iowa in the Atlantic?
A: Yes, it was a real incident during a joint training exercise. Vanguard incorporated a raised bow that improved her seakeeping relative to the KGV class, which had a flat bow due to a design requirement to be able to shoot flat directly over the bow with the A turret (which they never had to do in practice). In contrast, Iowa used a very thin, heavily tapered bow for maximum speed—however, in heavy seas (as you’d expect in the Atlantic), the narrow bow tended to dig into large waves and drench the ship forward, slowing it down. The Scharnhorst class battleships had similar seakeeping issues.

Q: Did Vanguard have the best fire control of any British capital ship?
A: Yes, she did, with the caveat that “fire control” is really a category with several different factors in it, including the fire control radar, rangefinding optics, director, rangekeeper, fire control computer, stable verticals, and more. Many British WWII ships were stuck with old, outdated systems, as there had not been enough budget to go around for modernization in the interwar period (notably contributing to Hood missing every shot at the Battle of the Denmark Strait). Vanguard was able to incorporate many wartime lessons, and was not as pressured for time to be completed during the war (compared to more urgently needed carriers, cruisers, destroyers, corvettes, and transports), so she ended up with the best Britain could afford. The unique feature was her main battery RPC for train, not seen in any other British capital ship. Arguably, her overall fire control suite was second only to the US fast battleships by the end of the war (and not by much).

Q: How heavily armored was HMS Vanguard?
A: Without going into the specific details of thicknesses, armor quality, layout, shell choice, etc. we can say that Vanguard was overall decently armored. Broadly speaking, she was well protected against 14” fire, decently protected against 15” fire, and marginally protected against 16”+ fire. Her armor scheme was mostly a duplicate of the KGV layout, though with some detail improvements to damage control systems and with inferior turret armor. She had a bit more armor over her magazines than her machinery (boilers and engines), as was common in several British ship classes. For more details on her protection, see the IAQ.

Q: Could HMS Vanguard have blown up like HMS Hood?
A: Yes, in a way, though it would have been much more unlikely. While multiple factors contributed to the destruction of Hood, a major factor was the fact that Hood’s powder magazines were positioned above her shell rooms. From Nelson onward, British capital ships switched this layout and placed shell rooms above powder magazines, meaning that bombs and shells coming in above water would be more likely to hit the shell room filled with thick-walled shells and insensitive fillers, than the very volatile and flammable cordite charges below the waterline. Hood never had her layout reversed (and her planned refit did not include changing this, meaning she would have remained vulnerable regardless), and Bismarck’s shell had a much easier time causing a magazine detonation as a result. Still, Vanguard does use basically the same shells and powder, so a similar occurrence, though more unlikely, is still possible.

Q: Should Vanguard be UR?
A: ¯\(ツ)/¯

[humble mulch]

[exotic scarab]

[spiral cedar]

Since she’s the new ship, I figured I’d provide this for ease of copy-paste

[exotic scarab]

i mean cant any ship blow up like hood

[spiral cedar]

Feel free to use when needed

Any errors are mine

[humble mulch]

It’s all good
Still need to make a faq thingy for this channel

[spiral cedar]

IAQ (Infrequently Asked Questions) will come out tomorrow (hopefully) and will go into detail

[humble mulch]

Supposedly discord is working on a feature like threads for faqs so many of your things can be transferred there

[fervent bobcat]

"Do nothing = UR" "do everything = elite (sr if lucky)"

[spiral cedar]

Added one final Q

[frigid karma]

welcome back shimmy

[fervent bobcat]

anyone know some good books on Earl Browder

[frigid karma]

it's almost as if

[fervent bobcat]

hello qwerty

[frigid karma]

the final technological developments of any ship class were created near the end of ww2 which meant they saw virtually no action

barring yamato but i mean she also did nothing

[strong plank]

Yamato was more

[exotic scarab]

it do be like that

[strong plank]

saving her for a decisive battle that never came

[tough quail]

it wasn't

[maiden citrus]

Notably, she was the only British capital ship to receive RPC (Remote Power Control) for her main armament and secondary battery, though her main gun RPC was only for train (rotating the turret)

thanks, I told someone this but couldn't 100% remember if it was rotation or elevation

[frigid karma]

i mean, they sortied her plenty of times

[tough quail]

yamato or musashi sortied to virtually every large scale engagement

[frigid karma]

samar was the closest she ever got to actually fighting, where she did

[tough quail]

and then the surface fleets never really connected

[frigid karma]

but her captain mysteriously couldn't figure out he was chasing slow ass CVEs

somehow

i mean, she has the best rangefinders in the IJN

and i don't think the CVEs were bombing at 40+ knots away from her

[spiral cedar]

It’s actually the reverse of Bismarck

Bisco had it for elevation only

Combined, they equal 1 US FBB

[maiden citrus]

lol

[spiral cedar]

(Or 1 New Orleans, given NO had RPC as-built for her mainbat)

[frigid karma]

May i remind you US BBs have two backup methods of elevating guns

the second method is called flooding the damn ship

[strong plank]

“They’re getting away!”
“The hell they are!”

[spiral cedar]

Massy notes in her Casablanca report that since operators matching elevation have to watch the guns elevate to firing angle and depress back to loading angle with each firing cycle, they fatigue much more rapidly compared to the operators matching train

So generally speaking, RPC for main guns in elevation is more helpful than in train

…so Vanguard picked the wrong one

[maiden citrus]

[spiral cedar]

You kinda need both for AA control, so idk maybe the Brits didn’t think it was necessary to have both or something for BB caliber

Or maybe they just couldn’t get it to work

FWIW the Germans apparently weren’t fully satisfied with Bismarck’s either

[fervent bobcat]

https://youtu.be/K_DEHvLvMak

[unborn wyvern]

do you guys think Drach plays Azur Lane/Kancolle?

[dapper parcel]

Besides manufacturing capacity, there might be space consideration too regarding the train-only implementation.

British RPC was mostly hydraulic servos which was more complex and require specific space requirement, compared to the mostly elecric RPC on USN

Training gear usually have more relaxed space constraint than elevation gear, and only one needed per turret (excluding backup)

[tender monolith]

Has the new event made anyone come in here complaining about Hood killing their dog yet?

[tough quail]

[spiral cedar]

Isn’t Tsushima anniversary coming up

Or was that today

Today depending on your time zone

[maiden citrus]

good reinforcements

also wow yeah that torpedo summary is actually really funny considering how absolutely low the accuracy was

unit system good

[frigid karma]

Hood killed my dunkerque

[spiral cedar]

Aside from Juneau, did the USN lose any cruisers to magazine detonations from torpedoes

[maiden citrus]

not that I can recall

and juneau had to be hit in the same place twice

[dapper parcel]

I love how Des Memes was written simply as Machinery and Void

[spiral cedar]

Unit machinery

Rip Ark

Like a checklist of stuff I don’t like in ship designs

[maiden citrus]

3 shaft is oof

no diesel double oof what

[spiral cedar]

All the armor plating in the world ain’t worth not having backup diesel generators and a crew that knows how to properly counterflood

This is the passage right before that one

[maiden citrus]

seems that person was prepared, already had a list ready

chad

[spiral cedar]

Bad damcon prioritization, focus on stuff not usually critical to ship survival

And yeh

iirc he was also in command when Javelin got torpedoed

Ah, just in command of the unit, not on board

[alpine onyx]

F for Ark, should've stayed away further from the battleship

[spiral cedar]

Oh yeah, here’s a funny

“Hm, yes, Resolution taking 7 torpedo hits is likely to result in a loss of 30% of speed.”

[spiral cedar]

Actually he was on board

Damn, damcon master

Conversely, dodging noob

[maiden citrus]

suuuuure, 7 torpedoes is more than even the standards could handle

[fierce sparrow]

9×19mm Parabellum - Othias
Ja - Georg Luger

The rest of the world from past to present... REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[cinder escarp]

Dimensionally terrible? 9mm is certainly up there, but so is .45 ACP

[fierce sparrow]

from Mr. Luger's perspective
He wasn't too happy for developing that 9mm

[cinder escarp]

They are both piss poor designs kept around for logistics sake, even though much better designs are around. 5.7x28 gets you more energy to either in a vastly smaller round.

[dapper parcel]

To think that there's still people swear by .45

[cinder escarp]

The tests that .45 were designed for were the most unscientific load of crap ever

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson–LaGarde_Tests

[fierce sparrow]

.45 "test"...

[cinder escarp]

Note: the fact is that the .45ACP as adopted didn't even match the test regime

[spring briar]

.45 is so slow

[cinder escarp]

Because the test regime had the three "satisfactory" rounds all as lead hollow points

"None of the full-jacketed or metal-patch bullets (all of which were less than cal. . 45) showed the necessary shock effect or stopping power for a service weapon"

.45ACP in its US military issued FMJ format, isn't even following the really important lesson from the "test" regime... that hollowpoints had way better stopping power than FMJ.

Which nobody would deny. But by having all of the big rounds be only hollowpoints and the "small" rounds all FMJ or soft tip...

I wonder what they would have seen with a 9 para or .38ACP hollow point.

[spring briar]

Tell me, what is your favourite handgun caliber?

[cinder escarp]

But much as there was absolutely no effort to standardize the targets or the exact methodology of shooting them, there was zero effort in making sure the different calibers being competed were shot with the same bullet type or barrel length.

I mean, for military use the 5.7mm is provably pretty much the best.

[spring briar]

But YOUR favourite

[cinder escarp]

The Germans being unable to defeat the trials results by argument had to simply cry and go home 20 years ago which lead to the 9mm replacement program collapsing.

[spiral cedar]

How so

[spring briar]

Penetration and capacity

[humble mulch]

Yep

[cinder escarp]

As to my favorite that's tricky given I don't have any ownership or experience, and so I'd have to vouch for what is mathematically and trials wise the best.

[maiden citrus]

good ol .22

[spring briar]

.357 sig is out there

[humble mulch]

.45acp is huge when compared to other full size pistol rounds like 9mm or 5.7mm

[spring briar]

It’s just so darn slow

[cinder escarp]

It's not just capacity and pen, it's a combination of things. It's got excellent external ballistics, the best of the AP pistol rounds, it has a better terminal effect than the microbullet of HK's 4.6mm.

[humble mulch]

It is also slow

[maiden citrus]

well yeah the .45's size is to store all the 'fuck you'

[spring briar]

Isn’t that due to the 5.7’s high velocity making a bigger tempirary cavity?

[maiden citrus]

it is slow because it is overloaded with fucks to give

[cinder escarp]

You want a .45ACP sized round that isn't crap?

Get 10mm Auto

It's actually slightly smaller than .45ACP

in both length and diameter

[desert agate]

20mm

[humble mulch]

I mainly see this argument for law enforcement uses and not actually military use

[spring briar]

10mm based

[humble mulch]

Lol 10mm is noice

[spring briar]

It’s a .40 right?

[maiden citrus]

0.39

[cinder escarp]

For LE use economics trumps everything else, pretty much any common caliber jacketed hollowpoint does the job for LE.

[fierce sparrow]

4.6mm... idk why H&K didn't make a pistol for that cartridge.
I mean they tried with the UCP but cancelled in 2009.
While FN got both the P90 and the Five Seven.

Also... ohdear 10mm and Bren Ten

[humble mulch]

Alternatively you could just not use shit 9mm rounds

[spring briar]

5.7 >>>>>>> 4.6

[cinder escarp]

The actual bullet for 10mm Auto is exactly .40 caliber.

[spring briar]

Yea

[spiral cedar]

"Whatever military hand me down comes down the pipe"

[spring briar]

Because .40 x .00254

[cinder escarp]

Yeah, HK tried to make a pistol for 4.6 but the already weak 4.6 became basically a spitball out of a pistol-length barrel.

[spring briar]

Its only good point is short range pen but it just dunks most of its energy in the first few dozen yards

So light

[spring briar]

Dear god no

[fierce sparrow]

UCP... bummer

[spring briar]

22 magnum

[humble mulch]

Eww

[spiral cedar]

.223

[maiden citrus]

what I mostly buy

[spring briar]

my home defence round is 4 gauge slugs

[cinder escarp]

Also if you really want to laugh, you can always look at subsonic .223 rem or subsonic 5.7mm... which are just a very expensive way to shoot .22LR

[spiral cedar]

I'm partial to .58 cal flintlock

[cinder escarp]

In fact, they have less energy than .22LR

[spring briar]

subsonic 556???
YOU MEAN .300 blackout?

[maiden citrus]

most ruin your day I have is 12 gauge

[cinder escarp]

One of the neat things about the 5.7 pistol round is that it uses the same exact bullets as 5.56

[spring briar]

I'm proud to be a Belgian

experts in firearms and fries

[maiden citrus]

both important

[spiral cedar]

Frierarms

[spring briar]

jaba got it

[maiden citrus]

brilliant

[spring briar]

I'm also interested in those Indian INSAS rounds

[fierce sparrow]

INSAS... ohgods

[cinder escarp]

If you absolutely must penetrate some fool's body armor with a pistol, you could reload 5.7x28 with M995 AP projectiles

[spring briar]

black tip 556?

[cinder escarp]

yeah, subcaliber tungsten

[spiral cedar]

HEAT rounds for a pistol

[spring briar]

5.7 has some of the meanest looking rounds

this is post-penetration frangible ammo iirc?

[spiral cedar]

That's a marital aid

[spring briar]

jesus christ

5.7 SHS

[maiden citrus]

[spiral cedar]

[humble mulch]

Dude I wish I could carry 5.7 for work

[spiral cedar]

When you gotta penetrate someone's helmet from 500 yards

[humble mulch]

[spring briar]

Frangible ammo moment
when you gotta create 4 wound channels

[spiral cedar]

Hey look it's Vanguard

[spring briar]

[spiral cedar]

The ship that would not die, was called a He, saw torpedo boats everywhere, and that took an entire fleet to sink

Probably

[maiden citrus]

the fleet didn't sink it

[dapper parcel]

Unicorn
Also 💸

[maiden citrus]

it scuttled itself

[spring briar]

noone:
7.5 FK:

[maiden citrus]

after turning around to run from jeep carriers

[spring briar]

yes but atleast it wants to be something more

[fierce sparrow]

Did someone say.. VANGUARD?

[spring briar]

[spring briar]

anyways
what I've learnt about firearms in the years that I've been interested in them is

• shotgun slugs are best home defence
• AR does not stand for assault rifle

[fierce sparrow]

AR does not stand for assault rifle...
I wonder who come up with that

[maiden citrus]

when you absolutely need to blow the guy's arm off at 100 yards

[spring briar]

Slugs are just really neat and underrated

[maiden citrus]

shotguns have a strange reputation due to games

[humble mulch]

Yeah

[maiden citrus]

'they only work up close'

tell that to the dead bear at 100 yards

[strong plank]

It’s actually very simple

[humble mulch]

But like it's funny cause they are used for bird hunting

[strong plank]

After flying 4 feet the slug dematerializes

[humble mulch]

And birds can get pretty high very fast

[strong plank]

That’s why the Germans didn’t like it. Not because of any sense of honor, but because it broke conventional ideas of physics

[spring briar]

I think a standard slug has a bit over half of the energy a friggin 50 cal has at the muzzle

[maiden citrus]

https://tenor.com/view/witchcraft-hunchback-of-notre-dame-frollo-claude-frollo-tony-jay-gif-4873960

[spring briar]

Didn't the germans literally have the Brenneke slug?

or did they use buckshot

don't tell me they used slugs in a smoothbore

[maiden citrus]

'honor'

yeah bro sorry we're using better weapons to kill with that's really unfair and imbalanced in hindsight, apologies

[strong plank]

To be fair

[spring briar]

slugs are probably more humane anyways

[humble mulch]

Idk if you break into my house Im filling you with bird shot

I don't make the rules

It's just cheaper for me

[maiden citrus]

there is no torture involved when you immediately cease metabolism due to kinetic catastrophe

[strong plank]

To be fair if I had just spent the last several months sitting around in a trench getting bombarded, only to see some yank jump in and turn my 3 closest buddies into pink mist I’d be fairly annoyed too

[spring briar]

after watching taofledermaus for years I can say a slug to the chest will just punch straight through you

and kill you from the hydrostatic shock

[maiden citrus]

firearms and weapons in general are way underrated due to media, kinda sad

[humble mulch]

AK being inaccurate

[strong plank]

Either the recoil doesn’t exist or it propels the barrel into the ceiling

[maiden citrus]

was watching stranger things with friends the other day and after seeing the big bad get hurt and pissed at a pistol, I was like 'why don't the government dudes unload into it with their 20 military grade rifles and make it commit unalive'

[strong plank]

Oh don’t forget the classic

“The gun’s firing but the dust cover is still closed”

[spring briar]

muh Noveske

[junior trench]

I mean...

AR can stand for multiple things

auto/automatic rifle, autorifleman, armalite and/or armalite rifle, assault rifle (yes, this is actually a term, don't let anyone try to gaslight you into thinking otherwise)

augmented reality...

[junior trench]

yesn't

[eternal veldt]

I thought AR is a repair ship?

[junior trench]

there's enough temporary expansion from a shotgun slug to largely make the difference academic

[eternal veldt]

[junior trench]

but there's a magic number of around 2400 fps/730 m/s* where that temporary expansion occurs so violently that the flesh is basically turned into a bloody sponge due to the shock

*terminal speed, to note

at lower speeds rifle rounds are also still more likely to yaw and/or fragment, so they're still operating in a more efficient manner than "big slug go yeet"

[spring briar]

Yes.

The flat frontal surface area is the thing that is so devastating

It is much less based on its velocity ofc

Being a slug

[ivory ridge]

@manic latch

[manic latch]

Well well well

[spring briar]

[tender monolith]

?

[manic latch]

It was leaked long ago Richy

Stalingrad was also in the files

[cinder escarp]

kronk has arrived

[tender monolith]

oh

[eternal veldt]

Alaska is also already in the files

[spring briar]

still bs that it's in the game before anything french

[eternal veldt]

Shown on screen, even.

[manic latch]

Tirpitz and Biscuit as well

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUP_9ofAagw

[eternal veldt]

[spring briar]

[cinder escarp]

Cold war france be like

[eternal veldt]

Still waiting for Flyhawk to actually commit and do a 1/700 Gloire

[cinder escarp]

YOU LIKE LEVERS?

[eternal veldt]

pain

[junior trench]

delayed blowback for full power RCMGs is one of the brainier things to ever come from small arms development

[spring briar]

Mas 49-56 keeping the dream alive

[spring briar]

2.5 oz. slug vs my sternum pls

[tough quail]

my favorite is 5.45 AKs always having absolute fucking nightmares recoil in games

despite the actual round kicking like a small kitten

[spring briar]

well

AK gas system does that

[tough quail]

it really doesn't

if you can't control an AK-74 you're probably a malnourished 14 year old

[spring briar]

it does tho

in the AK you got the entire gas rod added to the system

in the AR you just got the tube

unless I'm missing smth ofc

[tough quail]

more recoil than an ar-15 =/= your arms being torn off five rounds in

which bido james dont seem to understand

[spring briar]

the 5.45 ak's are that bad?

you got a clip?

[tough quail]

not atm but ill look around after fp2

the most recent one ive fucked around with is pavlov

[spring briar]

holy shit I've never seen how big that gas piston is

LOOOOL

[tough quail]

where the m4 is basically a laserbeam and the ak-12 for some reason has like double the recoil of the regular AK

and it's like trying to wrestle lightning to the ground

[spring briar]

you know, I love the 5.45

but

idk

[cinder escarp]

There's less felt recoil in a AK-74 than M16

[desert agate]

Communism joke

[cinder escarp]

Free recoil of the AK-74 is an astonishingly low 3.39J (2.50 ft*lb) - full length M16 is 4.4 ft*lb of free recoil.

[desert agate]

Held a real AK for the first time today

In a nuclear bunker in prague

Unfortunately deactivated

[tough quail]

any idea which model?

[spring briar]

yes but he's not talking about free recoil lol

[somber knoll]

Agreed. 5.45 is a bit anemic. An old buddy of mine in the army said he preferred 5.56 or 7.62 over the 5.45

[spring briar]

really hard to judge this without a specific criterion

[somber knoll]

even though it has more felt recoil. Then again unless you're a fat reserve or an officer you're pretty much required to train and doing so pretty much makes the recoil more or less an inconvenience.

He said the export AK-103 is surprisingly a better AK to shoot.

[spring briar]

The ak-74 might have a little bit of problems on the breech or gas system throwing off the sights idk

never shot one

[somber knoll]

Which is funny because our standard issue rifle is just a modernized and accurized FN FNC (which uses a modified AK action but chambered in 5.56)

[junior trench]

I mean.

yeah

the AK-103 is what happens when the Russians aren't the ones who need to foot the bill

which is why AK-12 ended up being such a relative garbage fire

5.45 ammo design philosophy also just gets weird

ball ammo where the core is an alloy rod because armor pen above all else... but still can't actually pen peer body armor and sacrifices any semblance of terminal effect

and I guess the British took notes because they decided to make a all steel jacketed 5.56 their new standard

[spring briar]

ah yes

that round

still can't pen shit

and has barely any post-pen effects

[junior trench]

and then they also chose embiggened SS109 as their new 7.62 ball?

like

[spring briar]

556 green tip scaled up?

[junior trench]

yes

[spring briar]

as ball

[junior trench]

M855/SS109

[spring briar]

what

[junior trench]

it's just

big green tip

[spring briar]

high performance ball

aka
pre-WW1 design studies for AP rounds

[junior trench]

and the 5.56 is just...

solid steel with a jacket

and performs worse than M855A1

but they can't fit M855A1 into the L85 anyway

so

meh

[spring briar]

and will lose more energy at range

wow

absolutely wow

[junior trench]

oh yeah

copper is denser than steel

so that British round needs to be even longer than M855A1

to be the same weight

[spring briar]

yeah was just thinking

still 62gr.

with full steel

and copper jacket

[junior trench]

so either the OAL changes

[spring briar]

how long is that shit

[junior trench]

or the case capacity shrinks

[spring briar]

LONG NECK

[junior trench]

and the UK needs to choose between pressure people think M855A1 has

or less velocity

[spring briar]

british can't compromise

what kinda steel under the jacket?

[junior trench]

no indication

but it was explicitly designed for hard target performance

does worse than M855A1 at it

and gives up all semblance of terminal effect on a soft target

which just makes me think someone told the design team that hard target performance was the goal and nothing else

like how RN shell makers never got to to stop making shells that explode while still in the plate

[spring briar]

so probably some super hard super light steel

that makes the round even longer

might as well fill it with tempered glass

[junior trench]

Graphs from BAE claim that the HP bullet can penetrate an 8mm steel sheet out to about 400m
for the 7.62

assuming that's mild steel...

M855A1 does 9.5mm at 450 meters

[desert agate]

czech one with a full wooden stock

had 1974 written on it

[spring briar]

ok so they used stainess or some shit

[junior trench]

are you sure it was an AK

[spring briar]

[junior trench]

if it's Czech

[desert agate]

well

the czech copy

[junior trench]

cus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vz._58

isn't an AK

[desert agate]

there was an AK and a vz i believe

definitely one vz

and definitely one AK

[spring briar]

go call the Vz.58 an AK on a czech forum
I dare you

[desert agate]

distinctly remember the cleaning rod and longer sight on the AK

and the shorter sight and lack of cleaning rod on the vz

look guns arent my forte alright

[spring briar]

the VZ also has a way different charging handle

also look at the gas system

it's much shorter on the VZ

and if the gas system is different it just isn't the same gun

not to mention the bolt locking and magazine feed systems

[tough quail]

no you idiots that's a fal

[spring briar]

[desert agate]

yeah they had both

[spring briar]

the VZ 58 also has a cooler bayonet

dont' @ me

[desert agate]

i was wondering about the differences i spotted

and forgot that the czechs had their own gun

[spring briar]

is oki
the VZ and AK are some of the most confused guns

and VZ's are often used in movies to represent AK's

as they are still a lot cheaper last time I czeched

[fierce sparrow]

blame Lord of War

http://www.imfdb.org/images/7/74/LOWSAVz58-1.jpg

lots and lots of VZ 58s

[shrewd pecan]

the arsenal

[exotic scarab]

i just think of the AK-74m

[spring briar]

me checking out steel case tula ammo

[exotic scarab]

imma be honest

well it may seem annoying to some theres a reason I like to point out the minor inaccuraces in movies

since often times thats the only point the public sees a era of history

also lord of war was a mid movie

[desert agate]

nick cage is a mid actor

[somber knoll]

but mah steel core penetrator :Kappap:

My initial problem with the 5.45 is that why did the Russkies keep the 39 mm case length which for all the good things Kalashnikov had made, actually pretty much dwarfed the potential tumbling effect that the bullet has (iirc I read a comment that 42 mm is the ideal case length because it gives the bullet better velocity and even better pen with a bit of a tinkering with the bullet to handle the extra pressure. not to mention better AP properties).

[junior trench]

because they were already making a shitload of x39 cases

[somber knoll]

Classic Russian move there.

[unborn wyvern]

I hate how its so easy to load a shotgun in video games. They just go ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE SIX SEVEN EIGHT pump OKAY

Where in real life it's more like

grab handful of shells from box/pocket

One two three (fuck that ones backwards) four.....

grabs more shells because a human hand can't hold 8 shotgun shells

Five.. six.. seven..

sound of shotgun she'll smacking into shotgun shell

sigh pump

Eight

Okay Pull

[somber knoll]

Saiga 12 enters the chat

tho to be fair unless you get the non-AK-based variant, you'll get gas system issues.\

especially the early ones.

[unborn wyvern]

"Ohhh those russians..."

~Rasputin, Boney M

[manic latch]

Yet shotguns are heavily nerfed in games

[unborn wyvern]

my personal favorite is the KS-23, why let perfectly good 23mm AA guns with slight Manufacturing flaws go to waste? when you can create the largest shotgun on earth (so far)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Карабин_специальный_КС-23М_Дрозд%2C_вид_справа_без_приклада_01.jpg

[manic latch]

Ahh the barrel of GSh-23

[tough quail]

where my barrikada simps at

[somber knoll]

oof, the gulag gun

[spiral cedar]

http://www.navweaps.com/index_inro/INRO_Bismarck.php

Today's the day

[spring briar]

finally

[tribal mortar]

?

[spring briar]

As will be seen, the extensive damage sustained by Bismarck was sufficient to overwhelm and defeat the ship, but was not of a nature to cause her to sink quickly.

[spiral cedar]

The day Bismarck goes under

[tribal mortar]

Ohhh right

May 27, 1941, at around 0900 in the North Atlantic, the British heavy cruiser Dorsetshire torpedoed the Bismarck, and she finally went under.

[spiral cedar]

There was a large hole in the vicinity of the amidships catapult on the port side. The size of this hole was perplexing, if it was caused only by shell hits. Upon further analysis, we have concluded that this hole was probably caused by the last torpedo hit on the portside by cruiser Dorsetshire. Information from Mr. Statz has indicated that listing was at 15 degrees when he jumped into the sea at 1030. Dorsetshire's action report states that she made her final run on the port side of Bismarck at 1034, with the torpedo set for a depth of 16 feet. Observers on the British cruiser noted that the torpedo struck amidships. We are now almost certain that this torpedo hit just below the outboard edge of the Aufbaudeck (USN 01 level) near the port catapult position. A 15-degree list to port and water surge into the ship from the 25-45 foot waves makes this a likely event. Most of the energy of the torpedo explosion (750 pounds of TNT) was vented upwards, but there was sufficient energy left to cause the large hole in the Aufbaudeck seen in the overhead view of the damaged Bismarck. This torpedo hit, although not decisive in sinking the ship, did serve to accelerate the capsizing process already underway.

The torpedo hit the weather deck when Bismarck was already listing so heavily that the torpedo could hit the top of the ship rather than the side

[spring briar]

still baffles me that she had over 8k tons of oil

[spiral cedar]

i.e. it made another hole to make her sink faster, but didn't cause her to start sinking in the first place

[spring briar]

also blessed richelieu metacentric height

sees KGV class GM

wtf

[spiral cedar]

Littorio

[spring briar]

oh dear lord

[spiral cedar]

But hey, who needs stability after torpedo hits

rip Clevelands

[spring briar]

One of the designers of the Bismarck, Mr. Heinrich Schlüter, was quite unhappy with the protective scheme adopted for these ships. He felt that the lower portion of the side armor belt should have been terminated further below the design waterline than was done in the final design. He confided these concerns to his wife before he left on the fateful voyage that was to take his life. Such a change was impossible to make with the standard displacement already exceeding the limit by 7,600 tons and proposals being made to reduce the displacement.

https://tenor.com/view/anime-sad-girl-gif-21568258

[tribal mortar]

Everyone knows the she was scuttled, not sunk, right?

[spiral cedar]

Don't do it man

Don't do it

[tribal mortar]

What?

[spiral cedar]

You have so much life ahead of you

[tribal mortar]

My entire life is history.

I spent the entirety of 2020's quarantine learning about the Bismarck.

[tough quail]

i know the ironblood tag and all but im pretty sure he's taking the piss

[spiral cedar]

Yes, but how much of your life is reading naval damage reports

[spiral cedar]

Fingers crossed

[tough quail]

if only there was some extra armor laying around on the ship that served no serious purpose, hrmmmmm

[spring briar]

HMMMMMM

[tribal mortar]

I don't understand them.

[spring briar]

or the armor they wasted on the faulty double bottom

HMMMM

[tough quail]

there's so much you can patch up on bisko if you just rip off the upper belt

aaaaaaargh

[spiral cedar]

Not really tbh

[tribal mortar]

I said this based on what they observered when they found her at the bottom in '89.

[spiral cedar]

Upper belt was necessary for
a) preventing over-belt deck hits
b) protecting barbettes

[spiral cedar]

Let me pose you a hypothetical

Is it possible for a ship to be both scuttled and sunk?

[tribal mortar]

Saying she was sunk would give full credit to the Royal Navy, which would be completely incorrect.

[spiral cedar]

Please answer my question

[tough quail]

i'd be really surprised if they couldn't just reinforce the barbettes and the deck to a practical degree on similar weight

[spring briar]

bismarck with no further underwater protection vs French 15” underwater shells

[spiral cedar]

Can a ship be both scuttled and sunk

[spring briar]

Who wins

[tough quail]

given the sheer surface area and thickness of the upper belt

but that's just basic brainthink, no serious math behind it

[tribal mortar]

It depends on your definition of "sunk"

[spring briar]

[tribal mortar]

If you mean her just going underwater, then yes.

[spiral cedar]

Okay, then rephrase: is it possible to scuttle a sinking ship

[tribal mortar]

Yes.

[spiral cedar]

Indeed

[tribal mortar]

However

[spiral cedar]

This is why I asked if you read WWII damage reports

It is an excellent example of what may be termed a general rule for damage primarily involving flooding which has been derived from many cases of war experience, namely,

IF THE SHIP DOES NOT SINK WITHIN A VERY FEW MINUTES AFTER DAMAGE. SHE PROBABLY WILL SURVIVE FOR SEVERAL HOURS.

Loss of NORTHAMPTON by progressive flooding also parallels other war experience which has shown that,

CASES OF LOSS BY BODILY SINKAGE, PLUNGING OR CAPSIZING SEVERAL HOURS AFTER DAMAGE HAVE BEEN ENTIRELY ATTRIBUTABLE TO PROGRESSIVE FLOODING.

This is from USS Northampton's damage reports

[tribal mortar]

Bismarck's armour was not ever penetrated by the British shells except for the shell that hit her bow during the Battle of the Denmark Strait on May 24, 1941 from Prince of Wales.

[tough quail]

bisko was scuttled, yes, but there needs to be context applied to that and the decision to do it

[spiral cedar]

Not actually true

But I'll get to that later

First

The matter of sinking

[tribal mortar]

The decision was made when the captain and admiral died.

[tough quail]

by the time the order to detonate the scuttling charge was given, bisko iirc had already lost the majority of power aboard the ship

[tough quail]

was taking on a heavy list, and none of her main guns were functional anymore

she was dead in the water with no ability to fight

[spiral cedar]

Here’s a table of the amount of time it took for various British ships to sink

[spring briar]

@horse tell me

[spiral cedar]

Note the U-shaped curve this forms

[tribal mortar]

You can read that scratchy text?

Cause I can't.

[tough quail]

and the order was given to prevent the off chance that she'd stay upright long enough to get towed back to a british port iirc

as... goofy an idea as that is

[spiral cedar]

Ships tend to either sink in a handful of minutes, or take over an hour to sink

[spiral cedar]

There are few ships that sink in between

[strong plank]

Perhaps this may be of some relevance

[spiral cedar]

The damage Bismarck sustained was not of the sort to produce a rapid sinking

[tough quail]

bisko is several hours iirc due to the numerous holes in both sides and her hilariously huge beam

[spiral cedar]

She was instead sinking slowly

[tribal mortar]

I can't read that.

[tough quail]

there's just an enormous surface area trying to get underwater

[spiral cedar]

Then just read my explanation

[sullen canyon]

Bismarck did sink, but they opened the scuttle holes to say we scuttled her instead

[spiral cedar]

For comparison, Kirishima was fatally wounded by Washington in just 5 minutes of shooting, but took nearly 3 more hours to actually sink

[tough quail]

there was an actual purpose behind it

it wasn't to get brownie points on the internet seventy years later

[tribal mortar]

No

[spiral cedar]

During which time she was able to leave the battle area under hew own power

[tribal mortar]

It was for pride.

[sullen canyon]

Germany didn't want to say their pride and joy BB was sunk by the Home Fleet

[spiral cedar]

In ships that don’t sink abruptly, there’s a considerable period of time where the ship’s crew can still perform various actions while the ship is irrevocably sinking

One of those actions is scuttling

[tribal mortar]

This is getting confusing, there are too many people saying stuff and I can't process it.

[somber knoll]

2 for 2
afaik the ships that were sunk in between the duration were either delayed detonation, slow seeping damage to either magazine, charge room, or fuel compartment, or the machinery was seized...

[spiral cedar]

Yes, can I get some talking space

[somber knoll]

Not sure about the last.

[spiral cedar]

I would appreciate it

[tribal mortar]

I have not been able to see any of your messages because there was too much going on.

And my phone doesn't scroll up.

[sullen canyon]

[spiral cedar]

e.g. Johnston was clearly sunk by the Japanese, but her crew also scuttled her by opening the scuttles, as they abandoned ship

[tribal mortar]

Who is Johnston?

[spiral cedar]

She was scuttled and sunk

USS Johnston

[spring briar]

A fletcher class

[spiral cedar]

Most famous US DD at the Battle off Samar

[tribal mortar]

Oh

[spring briar]

Scared off Yamato

[tribal mortar]

Never heard of Samar

[spiral cedar]

We can discuss that later

[tribal mortar]

Alright

[spiral cedar]

Just know it’s a very famous battle

Anyway

Yes, Bismarck was scuttled. No one her disputes that; her wreck shows little implosion damage which suggests that most of her inner spaces were flooded internally prior to reaching crush depth, consistent with scuttling

However, ships don’t sink like video games, where when they hit 0 HP they blow up and go under in a few seconds

[tribal mortar]

That would be strange.

[spiral cedar]

If a ship hasn’t sustained damage of a type that causes it to sink in a couple minutes, it usually takes over an hour

Bismarck took roughly 40 minutes to sink

She was on track to sink over the course of perhaps 1-2 hours, but as her crew abandoned ship, they performed the standard abandon-ship procedure of scuttling the ship

Which hastened her sinking and caused her to go under more quickly

[delicate beacon]

Why would you actually scuttle the ship?

[spring briar]

Scuttling is a French specialty

[delicate beacon]

Can confirm. The British tried to do it for them, the Americans tried to do it for them, but the French were still best.

[spiral cedar]

None of this is a discredit to her crew—who held on far longer than was really necessary—or to her design, but it shouldn’t distort the fact that the British did inflict sufficient damage to sink her prior to the abandon-ship and scuttling

[tribal mortar]

Scuttling is also a way to hold your pride, you can claim that your ship was not sunk by the enemy.

[spiral cedar]

No, not really

[tribal mortar]

I said you can claim.

[somber knoll]

As a trivia, Samar (or was it San Bernardino Strait?) would have been the battleground for the whole infamous theoretical Iowa Vs Yamato stuff.

[tribal mortar]

Didn't say it's true.

[tough quail]

you just end up looking extra desperate tbh

[spiral cedar]

Scuttling was standard procedure in the Kriegsmarine when abandoning a doomed ship

[tough quail]

there's not really much shame in uh

[tribal mortar]

Well, that's rather interesting.

[spring briar]

For France they had a valid reason

[tough quail]

getting run down by half the royal navy in unison

[tribal mortar]

So it didn't fall into enemy hands.

[spiral cedar]

Not for Bismarck specifically

For any ship

[tribal mortar]

I know.

[spiral cedar]

That’s the point of procedure

[spring briar]

Watch the british tow bismarck back to britain