Because then people will compare to the real ship history and complain that it doesn't match up
#history
sullen canyon
That would make sense
chilly flower
I think you should just be happy that they used Kidd to film it
west radish
There were 175 in total 19 loss
sullen canyon
Especially since someone would go out of their way to publish classified material to prove them wrong and whatnot
runic ermine
Especially since someone would go out of their way to publish classified materia...
Only if it was added to war thunder
sullen canyon
I think it happened with some WeeGee games too
autumn sorrel
Screenwriters want as much flexibility in their writing as they can get away wit...
It is getting a sequel, I hope it will be more action in the Pacific
west radish
It is getting a sequel, I hope it will be more action in the Pacific
Didn't the director who made the Hacksaw Ridge said he was going to make a film about Laffey surviving a wave of kamikaze?
junior trench
Thinking about the time a mod came in here to gloat about how it's better now than back when this was a club, because it was too "cliquish".
Meh
Wrong reply
But still fits well enough
eternal veldt
Greyhound 2, if I am being honest, is a bit of a mess direction wise atm
eternal veldt
"Normandy" + "Pacific" is certainly a scope to include in what I can presume to be a 90 minute picture
junior trench
Any sequel which isn't a way to sneak in a movie entirely about Taffy 3
autumn sorrel
"Normandy" + "Pacific" is certainly a scope to include in what I can presume to ...
Honestly, just pick one. Or make it into a tv series if they want both
desert agate
Thinking about the time a mod came in here to gloat about how it's better now th...
Worst decision the mods ever made was allowing randoms to enter it
Oh it was cliqueish? Good, at least the clique was right
remote monolith
which Clique though, Guangxi, Henan, Shandong, or Sichuan
desert agate
Tojokistan clique
remote monolith
oh riiight, we worship Tojo and smuggle hashish
desert agate
autumn sorrel
https://fxtwitter.com/DefenceAust/status/2005549349355356545?s=20
Just curious, I remember you really don't like Navantia. Is it bc of delay during Hobart class construction or the quality of the designs?
subtle prawn
It wasn't just the Hobart-class that had issues, their resupply ships did as well
I seem to recall them having to use the RNZN's for a bit?
They were also incompetent when they designed a sub that could have sunk really quickly had they not asked GD Electric Boat to solve their problems
That last one isn't relevant to Australia, but I do think it's a fail worth mentioning
desert agate
The Supply Class and Canberra Class both had warranty claims on their propulsion systems
The Hobarts also had major manufacturing issues that delayed their delivery
Navantia is blatantly incompetent
subtle prawn
Something something the plans for the Hobart-class were sent to the wrong location or something like that
west radish
December 29th,1812 USS Constitution sunk HMS Java in a single-ship engagement.
runic ermine
Tojokistan clique
Chateau clique
runic ermine
December 29th,1812 USS Constitution sunk HMS Java in a single-ship engagement.
War of 1812 content? In this chat? Finally
timber linden
subtle prawn
frozen kestrel
Quick question about Warspite's WT model. What year configuration is it in? Because I gotta put her in her April 1940 fit for a thing.
Camo also is gonna really help
west radish
Quick question about Warspite's WT model. What year configuration is it in? Beca...
It's her Refit configuration 1942 model
frozen kestrel
fuck
west radish
Late but 1982 is the year USS New Jersey (BB-62) was recommission and modernization of her 
desert agate
@spiral cedar Have you done an immune zone calculation for the 16"/45 against Yamato?
I'm aware you did them for the 16"/50
How do the numbers compare?
spring briar
Well you need to be a bit closer for belt pens
But your deck pen is better at closer ranges
desert agate
And at said closer ranges Yamato is just going to punch right through, no?
spring briar
Yeah
Yamato’s 18.1” gun is quite scary
The only comparable gun is the 16” Mk.7 using the 16” Mk.8 mod 6
desert agate
I saw someone claim the SoDaks and NorCals are a viable contender against Yamato
I’m glad that they are very wrong not just somewhat wrong
spring briar
Viable as in
The guns wil certainly penetrate Yamato
But to get trough the belt you’d have to get uncomfortably close
Deck is fair game though
maiden citrus
Yeah I would consider sodak a viable contender with a slight disadvantage, not nc though due to the armor being weaker too
spring briar
But ideally I would like to keep sodak and nc with me under a nice warm blankie
They deserve some rest
spiral cedar
I saw someone claim the SoDaks and NorCals are a viable contender against Yamato...
In clear daylight the US treaty BBs are at a disadvantage. Both sides have very accurate guns (roughly tied for the smallest BB gun dispersion of the war) and in good conditions Yamato can get close to what the US fast battleships could achieve. Granted, Yamato will struggle by comparison at night and in poor visibility (e.g. squalls), but in a clear visibility slugfest, she has a lot more mass to absorb damage and (if they happen to detonate inside) her shells will do more damage. Iowa closes the gap partly due to her larger size, finer subdivision, backup plotting room, and more powerful guns, but if conditions remain clear the treaty BBs will be at a disadvantage
The latewar US BBs can pull some funny tricks like maintaining on-target salvos during a turn without visual reference, but that is mostly something only a lone ship can do and not one trying to fight in a line of battle so I wouldn’t count on it
subtle prawn
cyan oriole
I saw someone claim the SoDaks and NorCals are a viable contender against Yamato...
that's probably ragebait
just like the people who say Bismarck could beat a Yamato or an Iowa
although, a south dakota beating yamato is more likely than a bismarck beating yamato
spiral cedar
It's more likely an underestimation of Yamato's optical fire control
SD's 1943+ fit was very good, it's just that under clear and good conditions optical systems are more capable than people credit them for
Due to over-reading of small sample sizes of shells with older ships and often poorer-than-realized weather and sea conditions
spiral cedar
As a very rough estimate, I'd say 1944 SoDak penetrates Yamato's main belt in effective condition at a 90° target angle from zero to 17k yards, then penetrates the deck slopes from 28k to 36k yards, and the flat deck from 31k to 36k yards. This means about 11k yards of "immune zone," though 3k of those yards have only ~18% of shells penetrating (deck slopes).
In turn Yamato probably penetrates the main belt in effective condition from zero to 22k yards, then the flat deck from 33k to 45k yards. This means about 11k yards of "immune zone."
maiden citrus
similar immune zone width but at a harder to use range, roughly what I figured too, an uphill battle, but not quite out of weight class
spring briar
Funnily enough
The Sodak belt becomes immune to Yammy’s AP right at the range where the shell’s angle of fall + the belt angle exceeds Yamato’s original proof spec of 37°
This seems to be an angle where this shell experiences severe base slap
Oh right
: )
spiral cedar
90 deg = broadside on
60 deg = moderate approach angle
45 deg = aggressive approach (forward transverse bulkhead exposed)
30 deg = forward guns only
0 deg = firing over bow
Case 1: 20 knots (slow formation speed)
90 deg - holding range
60 deg - 7m 24s
45 deg - 5m 14s
30 deg - 4m 17s
0 deg - 3m 42s
Case 2: 25 knots (most realistic formation speed)
90 deg - holding range
60 deg - 5m 55s
45 deg - 4m 11s
30 deg - 3m 25s
0 deg - 2m 58s
Case 3: 30 knots (fast light formation speed)
90 deg - holding range
60 deg - 4m 56s
45 deg - 3m 29s
30 deg - 2m 51s
0 deg - 2m 28s
Case 4: 35 knots (flank speed)
90 deg - holding range
60 deg - 4m 14s
45 deg - 3m 00s
30 deg - 2m 27s
0 deg - 2m 07s
The mid-1943+ fire control radar on the SoDaks (Mark 8 FH) could spot 16" shell splashes out to about the max range of the gun (80% of salvos at 35k yards, for a gun with a max range a bit under 37k yards)
Yamato's Type 22 radar couldn't spot salvos out to deck penetration ranges, though she could fire using its ranges and then try to correct fall of shot optically (as she generally did at Samar)
She can shoot out past 30k yards optically alone, though optical errors grow much faster at extreme ranges than radar errors
If we take both ships as closing the range at about a 60 degree approach, to close the gap from ~35k yard opening range to the inner edge of deck pen range (~30k yards) would take about 6 minutes. Given both ships were capable of (and performed at) ~1.5 SPGPM, and assuming ~10% average output loss due to missed salvos, we'd get about 73 shells fired by each side in the "deck penetration" phase of the battle
Estimating hit rates is hard, but I'll use my old example here
This was against a Bismarck target, so a little smaller than Yamato, but it shouldn't affect the broad strokes of things
(This is after adding a 1/3rd reduction factor to the revised SRG mode)
SoDak might be expected then to achieve a ~4% hit rate, so about 3 hits on average
Given the ratio of belt to deck hits that probably means ~2 penetrating hits as an average outcome
US optics would be expected to achieve a ~2% hit rate at those ranges, but if we grant Yamato an advantage (say, ~3% instead, 50% better), we'd get ~2 hits on average or 1-2 penetrating hits on average
Entirely possible one side outright wins at this point with a magazine hit that forces the other side to withdraw, but that's unlikely so we'll move on
(And keep in mind that this is if both sides want to close the range, but also fire all guns)
(If only one side wants to close, you would double this deck-pen-range phase and thus double the expected hits)
spring briar
Small W for all forward guns
spiral cedar
After that you get into the 20-30k yard range band, where both sides are largely immune and thus you're mostly trying to destroy soft systems like directors, funnels, and so forth
Again assuming both sides are closing the range without sacrificing firepower, that's a 5-8% hit rate for SoDak (let's say 6.5% average) and 3-4% for optical. Let's say Yamato can do a bit better, say 5% average. This phase will take 12 minutes, for ~146 shells on each side, so 9-10 hits by SoDak and 7-8 hits by Yamato
maiden citrus
spring briar
spiral cedar
Assuming neither side manages to disable both enemy main battery directors in this period (or the various other low-probability soft kills possible but excluded from these situations, like a rudder hit that sends a ship into a doomed circle), we'd start seeing belt pens in the 15-20k range, though the ships are unlikely to be robotically sailing in a straight line so the target angles will vary in a range of probably TA 45- TA 90 degrees
During this ~6 min period (could be longer due to evasive turns), we'd expect another 73 shells by each side, with hit rates rising to 8-11% from SoDak and 4-6% for optical (so let's say 9.5% for SoDak and 7.3% for Yamato). That comes out to about 7 hits by SoDak and about 5 by Yamato. However, about half the hits will hit the impenetrable decks at this range, and probably half the belt hits will be at unfavorable target angles, meaning we'd only expect maybe a quarter of hits to penetrate—perhaps 2 by SoDak and 1 by Yamato.
By this point we've gotten collectively 2-3 penetrating hits on SoDak by Yamato out of perhaps 14-15 total hits, and ~4 penetrating hits on Yamato by SoDak out of perhaps 19-20 hits
maiden citrus
mathematically, it seems, I was perhaps even conservative, although yamato's penetrating hits might be more damaging on average
spiral cedar
Note that in historical battles with these numbers of hits, turret and barbette penetrations commonly led to one or the other side losing much of its firepower, but in our case both Yamato and SoDak have extremely heavy armor on both these surfaces so they are unlikely to be out of action at this point
I doubt either side will want to close much closer than this, so we'll take 15k yards as a rough final range where both sides can reasonably (though inconsistently) seriously harm one another
Let's say 11% hit rate for SoDak and 8.5% for Yamato. Per 6 minute time interval, we'd see ~8 average hits by SoDak and ~6 by Yamato, of which half will be deck hits and some others being at unfavorable target angles during turns and the like. Since neither side is closing the range let's say a 1/3rd reduction instead of 1/2. That comes out to ~1.3 penetrating hits by SoDak and ~1 by Yamato for each 6 minute interval. At this point it becomes a matter of rolling enough dice until either cumulative damage or a "critical" hit carries the day
This is of course a rough analysis using Bismarck as a proxy target for both sides (SoDak is smaller and Yamato is bigger), and we haven't taken into account stuff like fuzing issues (while Yamato's shells carry significantly more mass and explosive charge, their 0.4s delay fuze means overpenetrations are a reasonable concern, perhaps partly offset by a greater number of "diving" hits) or soft kills like hits to main battery directors
But it should be roughly clear that both sides have a reasonable chance of winning as neither is drastically overprotected or undergunned in relative terms, and both sides can still score hits at a reasonable rate while keeping penetrating hits to a minority of the total
But on a statistical basis, Yamato's much larger size means that she'd probably take more hits than our example, yet also be more durable against cumulative damage ('critical' hits will be largely unaffected) due to greater total damage needed to sink her
So on balance Yamato likely has a small to moderate advantage under these good daylight conditions. If you downgrade SoDak to pre-1944 shells or pre-1943 radar she's at a more meaningful disadvantage
We also cannot downplay the role of chance here; with identical fire control two US fast battleships sometimes would see -50% or +100% variance in their actual versus expected (BB fleet average) hit rates; over an extended battle these may average out but more hits early on could very well tip the scales
autumn sorrel
We also cannot downplay the role of chance here; with identical fire control two...
What would be the scenario where they are in large fleet action instead of 1v1 tho? Would USN gun line concentrate on Yamato to bring her down faster? Or in that hypothetical scenario, Yamato can tank shot and lead IJN surface fleet long enough to allow the rest of IJN BB to acquire accurate range?
spiral cedar
What would be the scenario where they are in large fleet action instead of 1v1 t...
In my opinion the closest we got to Yamato engaging in a surface battle would've been if TF34 had been placed to block San Bernardino Strait. She was at the head of Kurita's force as the single column left the southern side of the strait at night, where TF34 would've been patrolling had it been dispatched. That would indeed have made her both the closest and biggest target for US battleship guns, and thus would have led to her likely being smothered by fire while the rest of the Japanese force rushes to get within torpedo range and then let off a long range salvo at the American gun flashes.
Given those narrow waters and single file formation I doubt the other Kurita BBs would've been able to get into effective fighting position before Yamato is rendered combat ineffective
Possible that long range Type 93s score a hit or two but more likely they run into the DDs and cruisers first, who alert the battleline and cause a lull in the battle as the Allies go evasive and the Japanese withdraw to lick their wounds
Would Kurita then have tried to press through with Nagato and the rest? Maybe, but it would've been a true T-crossing situation with a chokepoint full of American destroyers, so I doubt he'd have accepted battle under those terms
In which case it probably ends with a battered Yamato being finished off later once the Allied vessels return after being sure the torpedo attack is over
spiral cedar
What would be the scenario where they are in large fleet action instead of 1v1 t...
If we're talking about a hypothetical daylight fleet action though, assuming the Allied airpower is largely expended on other targets (leaving the fight to the surface units), the extra complexity of the battle is more likely to favor the Allies. Smokescreens will greatly reduce the windows of good visibility needed for effective long-range shooting; Yamato's Type 22 radar is good enough to supplement her optical spotting out to medium range but isn't sufficient for blindfire without visual spotting (or for extreme range fire). During lapses in the smoke screens, or as gaps appear as ships maneuver and wind direction changes, she will have openings to lay down effective fire, but we might see a reduction in her time spent effectively firing by perhaps two-thirds as the battle wears on and damaged ships rely on smokescreens to escape.
If the USN has more battleships (as they likely will), the standard doctrine would have been for the leading battleships to double-concentrate on the enemy leading ships (likely Yamato) and for the trailing ships to single-concentrate on the trailing opponents. That way once the first enemy ship is crippled, fire can be shifted down the line to rapidly defeat the enemy battleline
spiral cedar
```Time elapsed for a ship to change the range by 2500 yards at various angles o...
I will say that, doctrinally, both the USN and IJN favored opening fire early, accurately, and quickly, to score as many crippling deck hits early on as possible and make the rest of the fight easier. So it is by no means guaranteed that they would both have closed the range as quickly as I described above
Such an aggressive advance was typical of Royal Navy tactics but the IJN planned to "outrange" the US slow battleships (>35k yards) until eventually closing to diving ideal shell range (~25k yards), and in the USN the battle plan would've been devised by the admiral in command and disseminated prior to the battle so it could well have varied by the commander's preferences (though, absent any order to open fire earlier, by default the minimum range to open fire would have been 32k yards)
The USN did consider ~18k yards to be the "decisive" final battle range for its old battleships in the interwar period, though the preference for longer ranges grew as wartime advances made long and even extreme range fire more practical
autumn sorrel
So even in the scenario where both side are in each other immunity zone, USN gun line will still going to output more shot and score enough hit that soft system on Yamato and IJN BBs will be disable and therefore mission skill those ships?
mental tapir
https://bsky.app/profile/milavhis.bsky.social/post/3mb7uar2rds24
Common Fr*nch L, another 30 Billion to GCAP 
west radish
spiral cedar
So even in the scenario where both side are in each other immunity zone, USN gun...
Well the Japanese aren't passive in this, they're shooting back too and trying to gain advantage. But if the other "attritional" aspects of the Japanese plan don't achieve the required hits—the torpedo bombers, the submarines, the surface torpedoes launched at 33k yards—then the Japanese gun line doesn't have enough of a qualitative edge to beat out the numerically larger American battleline
cyan oriole
What would be the scenario where they are in large fleet action instead of 1v1 t...
fleet action would not happen in a vacuum, first the japanese would have to content with american air attacks (and to some extent vice versa likely), and perhaps the IJN would get to use their torpedoes for what they were designed for
american battlefleet is far more powerful and modern than the japanese, so barring some large swing from Japanese action or extreme mishaps and failings on the American side, the Americans will just overpowered the Japanese
2 yamatos, nagato, 2 kongos vs 3-6 NC/SD and 1-4 iowas
and the more likely outcome (especially in the late war) is a Leyte engagement, where Musashi is already sunk and most other ships are damaged, so the battle will be even more in the American favor
cyan oriole
https://youtu.be/NRbBkqV10ec?si=uv4BPIM_wGIUNCXD
it's nice that people are explicitly advertising no AI, I watched his video about AI history channels and it's true just insane how much AI trash content is on the internet
AI thumbnails, and entire AI videos
laugh at this user
spring briar
It happens
spring briar
Yikes
cyan oriole
oops 1927 I might be a little bit dented
nice it sent properly, technology wins again
a lotta these seem extremely suspect
lost ravine
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
west radish
subtle prawn
terse mesa
burnt scarab
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAd8NbZ8TwQ
Thanks for sharing this.
pulsar bronze
Do it here
I wanna see waifus at #al-general, not about how Bismarck was doodoo
Apparently.
elfin blaze
time to defend the british navy and prove the wehraboos wrong
foggy hatch
I wanna see waifus at <#528197562998718474>, not about how Bismarck was doodoo
thats al-art
elfin blaze
You claim that it took multiple days and 41 ships to sink the bismarck
it didn't take 41 ships
hold on i gotta double check my resources
foggy hatch
to find her yes
elfin blaze
yes but did it take 41 ships to SINK her as you claim
or did it take 41 ships to FIND her
foggy hatch
i they dont find her, they cannot kill her. and as i know, 32 ships fired at bismarck
elfin blaze
32 ships fired
and they all engaged in actual combat?
also where did you get this multiple day statistic from
where did passingboy and that warship go
pulsar bronze
Idk
elfin blaze
i think we won
foggy hatch
no
elfin blaze
damn it
foggy hatch
was in general
pulsar bronze
Awh
elfin blaze
damn it
i believe what you meant was it took multiple days to FIND her and not SINK her
pulsar bronze
Why do I always get back to dragged here...
elfin blaze
Why do I always get back to dragged here...
you're the witness of seeing bismarck get toasted
foggy hatch
what did i hear about those three HMS on the way to pearl harbor
8 bombs and goodbye
pulsar bronze
There wasn't any HMS ships on the way to pearl...
HUH?!
YOU MEANT REPULSE AND WALES?!
elfin blaze
i do have to say tho bismarck wasn't shit she was just poorly designed
who decided that if 1 rudder died the ship couldn't turn was a good design idea
they should have tested the radar
but they just had to get bismarck in the atlantic asap
bismarck had rather significant armor
foggy hatch
i do have to say tho bismarck wasn't shit she was just poorly designed
they forgot the reconnaisance plane
elfin blaze
the % of her weight dedicated to armor was more than yamato if i remember correctly
elfin blaze
they forgot the reconnaisance plane
it got cooked in the first few moments
pulsar bronze
It was more the fault of the doctrine...
"Hey we're a nation that's easily navally blocked, you know what we should do?"
"Make a warship designed to fight other battleships that's really expensive instead of actually blockade runner ships"
foggy hatch
who decided that if 1 rudder died the ship couldn't turn was a good design idea
it was the whole rudder block, hit by a massive payload
elfin blaze
It was more the fault of the doctrine...
"Hey we're a nation that's easily nava...
it was made to fight convoys
elfin blaze
it was the whole rudder block, hit by a massive payload
they had 1 operational rudder
foggy hatch
it was the one point where it was vulnerable
elfin blaze
but the poor design made the ship only able to turn with 2 rudders
foggy hatch
they had 1 operational rudder
doesnt matter if the whole stern turns
elfin blaze
bismarck threw less weight downrange than most ww1 battleships
elfin blaze
Thats the fucking point.
It turns so slow.
it couldn't turn at all without 2 rudders
it only wobbles with 1 rudder active
foggy hatch
Thats the fucking point.
It turns so slow.
not when it was operational. but it is a Big ship. and Big ship turn slow
pulsar bronze
How dare you insult my beautiful Altmark
elfin blaze
not when it was operational. but it is a Big ship. and Big ship turn slow
bismarck's thiccness probably had a role in it
pulsar bronze
not when it was operational. but it is a Big ship. and Big ship turn slow
The Italians had a better ship than yours and it can turn faster.
elfin blaze
bismarck was thicc as hell for a ship of her weight
foggy hatch
because of missing ressources and mustace boys obsession with wonder weapons
elfin blaze
because of missing ressources and mustace boys obsession with wonder weapons
h class
eugh
pulsar bronze
because of missing ressources and mustace boys obsession with wonder weapons
Oh look he understands that wunderwaffen like the Bismarck was very flawed
Yaay
pulsar bronze
even the Flugzeugdeckkreuzer A-reihe was better
I'm assuming this is Graf Zeppelin
foggy hatch
Oh look he understands that wunderwaffen like the Bismarck was very flawed
it was no wonderweapon. it would have worked if Lütjens didnt send that 30min message
elfin blaze
Oh look he understands that wunderwaffen like the Bismarck was very flawed
bismarck was a "normal" ship compared to actual wunderwaffe
foggy hatch
I'm assuming this is Graf Zeppelin
no. Fritz rumey, Hildebrandt
elfin blaze
that lucky hit i think POW got on bismarck made an oil trail no?
get that off my screen
elfin blaze
that lucky hit i think POW got on bismarck made an oil trail no?
spotted by a plane
pulsar bronze
you do not insult Rumey
I don't insult the character, however what I will insult is the design element put into this
pulsar bronze
Dorchester exist
elfin blaze
get back on topic we're supposed to be roasting bismarck
foggy hatch
Bismarck was commissioned too late. Aircraft and submarine were already in
elfin blaze
Bismarck was commissioned too late. Aircraft and submarine were already in
ehhhh
foggy hatch
But the bismarck was basically perfect, had just bad luck
elfin blaze
But the bismarck was basically perfect, had just bad luck
"basically perfect" meanwhile all the design flaws:
pulsar bronze
But the bismarck was basically perfect, had just bad luck
Ah yes.
pastel zenith
pulsar bronze
Perfectly shit for the reason it was built
elfin blaze
first of all the rudder which we talked abaout
about
second of all
the fire control radar
knocked out by her own guns
foggy hatch
Perfectly shit for the reason it was built
that is just your opinion
spring briar
What’s going on
foggy hatch
first of all the rudder which we talked abaout
that was the doing of a polish guy unsure of his morale
elfin blaze
also the guns were spaced too far apart on the turrets
spring briar
Oh
Bismarck debate
Classic
pulsar bronze
Oh
Bismarck debate
Classic
Hi richy
elfin blaze
that was the doing of a polish guy unsure of his morale
the germans knew of the rudder problem but left it
eternal veldt
foggy hatch
Oh
Bismarck debate
Classic
shut, baguette sucker
spring briar
https://www.navweaps.com/index_inro/INRO_Bismarck.php
@foggy hatch read this lil bro
Come back later
pulsar bronze
Oh I haven't seen this is forever!
Wait let's bingo all the ones we've discussed this could be fun
spring briar
Baguette sucker?
Is that how you greet someone you see for the first time?
Couldn’t be me
foggy hatch
Baguette sucker?
Is that how you greet someone you see for the first time?
first time? you isulted brother clone before
pulsar bronze
A5 check
B2 Check
E4 check
elfin blaze
radar knocked out ✅ ww1 planes ✅ ship design concept ✅
spring briar
first time? you isulted brother clone before
Who?
pulsar bronze
B2 check
spring briar
And if I did it was for good reason
eternal veldt
Congratulations - you most likely have encountered upon a half truth with nuance upon it.
pastel zenith
Yee
elfin blaze
you threw a tantrum because he stated the Hood
you iron bloods will pay for sinking hood
pulsar bronze
Is it normal now?
foggy hatch
you iron bloods will pay for sinking hood
Objection: NUH-UH
elfin blaze
Yes
eternal veldt
Radar being knocked out is a commonplace occurrance in that age, being the finnicky electronic systems they are. It's not unique to Bismarck, and most certainly should not be attributed as a design flaw inherent to her.
elfin blaze
Radar being knocked out is a commonplace occurrance in that age, being the finni...
british navy had some problems with that as well eh
pulsar bronze
What the-
eternal veldt
Not NC, NJ
foggy hatch
Radar being knocked out is a commonplace occurrance in that age, being the finni...
truth, shoutout to japanese
spring briar
Not NC, NJ
Iirc NC too?
eternal veldt
wouldn't surprise me
spring briar
Or maybe Washington
eternal veldt
Jamaica knocked out her gun radar on the first salvo
elfin blaze
but for being one of their 4 captial ships you'd expect them to fix that as they didn't have much captial ship and had to make each one count
eternal veldt
Massachusetts also did at Casablanca
elfin blaze
alrights whats next on the checklist of things to insult about bismarck
eternal veldt
but for being one of their 4 captial ships you'd expect them to fix that as they...
Pray tell "how" to fix at sea while in an operation?
elfin blaze
PassingBoy give me the list
foggy hatch
Massachusetts also did at Casablanca
wasnt Massachussets the one that took 50 prototypes or so to swim?
pulsar bronze
You can just literally scroll, tears posted it
elfin blaze
Pray tell "how" to fix at sea while in an operation?
i expected them to test and fix bismarck
swim???
swim???
west radish
Is this history or femboy channel?
eternal veldt
By such metric, the US battleships also should have been "fixed" prior to their deployment
elfin blaze
By such metric, the US battleships also should have been "fixed" prior to their ...
oh well
eternal veldt
Massachusetts disabling her own gun radar, New Jersey firing upon Katori and being disabled on their first salvos is equally unacceptable
elfin blaze
im taking that off the list of things to insult bismarck then
foggy hatch
Is this history or femboy channel?
now, its an MMA-Battleground
elfin blaze
PassingBoy hand me the list of insults against bismarck
eternal veldt
silly Bwit not testing their battleships before pounding Bismarck
blazing egret
PassingBoy hand me the list of insults against bismarck
Oh they were dropped on the ocean floor like hood
foggy hatch
PassingBoy hand me the list of insults against bismarck
you need a list for something? not even correctly documented?
mild breeze at best
elfin blaze
Oh they were dropped on the ocean floor like hood
SON OF A BITCH DON'T MENTION HOOD
spring briar
Hi clone
blazing egret
Are you sad ?
pulsar bronze
PassingBoy hand me the list of insults against bismarck
I was here to like make sure the argument didn't start in general, but if I had to say. Bismarck's planned operational theatre and how that area is very lightly not a sustainable place to maintain a battleship presence?
foggy hatch
SON OF A BITCH DON'T MENTION HOOD
No Hood?
pulsar bronze
I guess
elfin blaze
No Hood?
No scharnhorst? no bismarck? no tirpitz?
no graf spee?
no genausi- whatever its called
spring briar
Can we stop with the passive aggressiveness
pulsar bronze
To be fair.
Hood was pre-jutland. It was also shit by the time it entered service, had the 1920's or 30's modernization package had come through it would've been likely Hood having an increase of less than 5% survival rate
elfin blaze
To be fair.
Hood was pre-jutland. It was also shit by the time it entered servi...
hood was never ment for the bbs of ww2
blazing egret
No scharnhorst? no bismarck? no tirpitz?
No Yorktown ?
pulsar bronze
no genausi- whatever its called
Gneissenau
elfin blaze
No Yorktown ?
SON OF A BITCH
elfin blaze
YOU SHUT YOUR DAMN MOUTH
pulsar bronze
She's a museum...
eternal veldt
I was here to like make sure the argument didn't start in general, but if I had ...
This is debatable, as the surface raiders have achieved measurable success in the early 1941.
elfin blaze
YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A CARRIER
foggy hatch
We have Yorktown
itsa hag
pulsar bronze
This is debatable, as the surface raiders have achieved measurable success in th...
Mmm fair
elfin blaze
YOUR CARRIER FAILED BEFORE IT EVEN FOUGHT AN ENEMY
blazing egret
YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A CARRIER
Graf zeppelin ? Wasnt deployed but existed
foggy hatch
YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A CARRIER
hehe uBoot go swoosh
blazing egret
YOUR CARRIER FAILED BEFORE IT EVEN FOUGHT AN ENEMY
It wasnt used. It dodnt fail
pulsar bronze
However scheer was already operating out in the Atlantic when war broke
eternal veldt
Some damage were inflicted on convoys, and notably, they were suspended for a brief period - This is damaging to Britain's war effort and should not be discounted.
pulsar bronze
Graf zeppelin ? Wasnt deployed but existed
No planes...
little palm
It wasnt used. It dodnt fail
That counts as failure
pulsar bronze
Some damage were inflicted on convoys, and notably, they were suspended for a br...
Extremely good observation 
blazing egret
No London ? Stukas rule
elfin blaze
im finna teleport thru the screen and strangle A
pulsar bronze
No London ? Stukas rule
Yeah idk bout you but London still exists...?
elfin blaze
No London ? Stukas rule
no berlin?
blazing egret
im finna teleport thru the screen and strangle A
Who now
elfin blaze
no tanks?
foggy hatch
That counts as failure
Its like getting fired before starting because they got bankrupt
elfin blaze
no infantry?
blazing egret
Yeah idk bout you but London still exists...?
Stil got bombed
elfin blaze
no factories?
blazing egret
Since you said no planes
elfin blaze
no production?
eternal veldt
The British are not dumb either, and started putting battleships in the middle of their convoys, such as Ramillies and Revenge. That said, alone without support, they are unlikely to hold off against Bismarck - and in that sense, Rheinübung and commerce raiding as her first mission made sense.
pulsar bronze
Its like getting fired before starting because they got bankrupt
So... Still failure?
pulsar bronze
The British are not dumb either, and started putting battleships in the middle o...
You did not just forget Renown.
elfin blaze
no tiger 1s?
pulsar bronze
eternal veldt
Of which Admiral Tovey explicitly mentioned to disengage and draw distance upon learning the sinking of the Hood?
blazing egret
no tiger 2s?
No good president ?
foggy hatch
no tiger 2s?
oh, we still have them
elfin blaze
No good president ?
Nuh uh
eternal veldt
Renown was escorting Ark Royal, and Tovey signalled for her to break off while Ark Royal went ahead
elfin blaze
Trumps good now ?
this is a ww2 discussion
little palm
Trumps good now ?
what are you on about
elfin blaze
not present day
foggy hatch
Kennedy Dies
eternal veldt
Especially since the circumstances regarding Hood's sinking at that time was unclear, and to some extent, still is to the present day.
blazing egret
so everything you said befptr is wrong
elfin blaze
No good president ?
your "fuher" was an 1 balled drug addict who believed in wunderwaffe
elfin blaze
Well back then we had tiger 2s ?
not after the b-17s
blazing egret
Well me262 go swoosh
elfin blaze
Well me262 go swoosh
not after the b-17s
foggy hatch
have you ever seen the footage of mustache man reading american letter?
little palm
Especially since the circumstances regarding Hood's sinking at that time was unc...
Something did a penetration, and then ammo cooked off is the extent, pretty much
elfin blaze
have you ever seen the footage of mustache man reading american letter?
no because i do not fanboy/fangirl over him
eternal veldt
You did not just forget Renown.
Renown isn't really used for convoy duty that heavily due to her faster speed nature.
blazing egret
not after the b-17s
You stupid ? Me262 hunted b-17s and lancesters
pulsar bronze
I think they're moving to "German tech" s a ehole
elfin blaze
You stupid ? Me262 hunted b-17s and lancesters
not after their airbase was bombed
eternal veldt
The slower Nelsons and the R-class are more ideally suitable for slower-moving ships.
pulsar bronze
Renown isn't really used for convoy duty that heavily due to her faster speed na...
She's still kinda used as escort in the North sea
spring briar
It’s “whose fake nationalism is stronger” now
elfin blaze
and ground troops captured them
foggy hatch
the one of that one president, sorry i dont remember side char's names
elfin blaze
historical politics
blazing egret
not after their airbase was bombed
Than youre talking end of war where the ships didnt even matter anymore
pastel zenith
historical politics
elfin blaze
Than youre talking end of war where the ships didnt even matter anymore
ahem the carriers still mattered
pulsar bronze
Someone is subtly changing the direction of the topic and even as a polsci graduate I don't think this is good 
eternal veldt
She's still kinda used as escort in the North sea
Indeed, and she would still see some brief action against Scharnhorst and Gneisenau off Lofoten during the Norway Campaign.
foggy hatch
since 1932, USA had more nazis than germany
eternal veldt
Mother nature had other plans, however.
blazing egret
ahem the carriers still mattered
No ? Because no plane floes from water to berlin
Why should they
pulsar bronze
Indeed, and she would still see some brief action against Scharnhorst and Gneise...
Although then again, it is the North Sea.
blazing egret
If they can just use airbases
elfin blaze
No ? Because no plane floes from water to berlin
maybe boats didn't matter for you metal red40s because no navy
eternal veldt
Still, not particularly about Bismarck in that regard.
elfin blaze
If they can just use airbases
not if they just got b-17'd
pulsar bronze
Still, not particularly about Bismarck in that regard.
theyre talking about planes now
elfin blaze
whats yo silly little airbase gon do against this 12000lb tallboy
pastel zenith
~~theyre talking about planes now~~
Sadge ship noise
foggy hatch
mentions Horton Bomber
blazing egret
maybe boats didn't matter for you metal red40s because no navy
Than you just throw random things around like a child now ? You put on a time and situation to gove arguments, and then you just swotch the time ?
elfin blaze
okay i think i've spoken enough
blazing egret
Yeah
pulsar bronze
The bingo will suffice.
The bingo has spoken.
elfin blaze
Than you just throw random things around like a child now ? You put on a time an...
gove?
foggy hatch
okay i think i've spoken enough
u lose then
blazing egret
You pffed yourself
elfin blaze
Than you just throw random things around like a child now ? You put on a time an...
swotch?
spring briar
The bingo will suffice.
And the cycle of hatred bad agendas repeats itself
pulsar bronze
And here comes the personal insults
eternal veldt
The bingo has spoken.
Just for reference, that bingo is intended to make fun of the half-truth that people make, and it's often those.
blazing egret
but i can't
Because english is youre only language woch you understand
pulsar bronze
Imma give them 5 minutes
foggy hatch
And the cycle of ~~hatred~~ bad agendas repeats itself
shut, french
elfin blaze
Because english is youre only language woch you understand
woch
elfin blaze
Because english is youre only language woch you understand
i understand chinese
eternal veldt
And the cycle of ~~hatred~~ bad agendas repeats itself
I don't think I expected much with those kinds of opening lines.
blazing egret
Wich*
pulsar bronze
Just for reference, that bingo is intended to make fun of the half-truth that pe...
These people probably read/watched 1 documentary and just dipped.
elfin blaze
as laffey said "Come at me bro"
blazing egret
Uhu. Nice flex
elfin blaze
i blame mustache man
blazing egret
Yeah, blame yourself for once. The only thing youre kind can do is blame others. Peace✌️
foggy hatch
what if: Adolf Schwarzenegger
elfin blaze
passingboy left me to a 2v1
elfin blaze
what if: Adolf Schwarzenegger
adolf who
foggy hatch
Clone needs to study latin now. he back in 1h
elfin blaze
like arnold?
foggy hatch
like arnold?
yes
green sphinx
Idolcarnhorst
pulsar bronze
passingboy left me to a 2v1
I can't argue with topics that stretched endlessly into absolute theoreticals
elfin blaze
I can't argue with topics that stretched endlessly into absolute theoreticals
damn it
a
anyways
pulsar bronze
I mean sure, if Zeppelin was operational it would've made for a good target practice
But now she wasn't used wasn't she?
elfin blaze
im off to al-general to maybe witness some booba
pulsar bronze
im off to al-general to maybe witness some booba
Lmfao
tame topaz
im off to al-general to maybe witness some booba
Sadly there isn’t going on there
eternal veldt
GZ and the Flugzeugkreuzers to some extent are somewhat tailored to suit Germany's needs.
elfin blaze
Sadly there isn’t going on there
sigh al-art it is then
foggy hatch
im off to al-general to maybe witness some booba
al-art would be better for that. we may be enemies, but respect the booba
tame topaz
green sphinx
pulsar bronze
God you're all just gooners wearing fking disguises.
green sphinx
Goon bros
elfin blaze
God you're all just gooners wearing fking disguises.
hey i didn't mean like cowpens or the eugen skin
i meant like uhhh
rodney
green sphinx
Uh huh
elfin blaze
also maybe some funny art
elfin blaze
i hav gf btw
Impossible
green sphinx
i hav gf btw
Good friend?
spring briar
@eternal veldt
I thought you might appreciate this
pulsar bronze
GZ and the Flugzeugkreuzers to some extent are somewhat tailored to suit Germany...
They're a compromise, in an actual conflict i don't think they'll be very effective. Since whatever the Germans were building weren't gonna go unnoticed by the Brits
foggy hatch
Good friend?
among others, yes
elfin blaze
<@301567539182567424>
I thought you might appreciate this
this isn't about me but im taking this for study
green sphinx
Hm
eternal veldt
From Jordan's book or a new publication?
and while you're here, I got some good stuff
spring briar
Magnifique
pulsar bronze
<@301567539182567424>
I thought you might appreciate this
Everytime I see that name I think of Neil De Grasse Tyson
elfin blaze
came to roast shitmarck stayed for the silly quad turrets
eternal veldt
pulsar bronze
I just noticed how extremely curved that funnel is
foggy hatch
came to roast shitmarck stayed for the silly quad turrets
i will pretend to not have heard zhat
green sphinx
Mecklenburg
elfin blaze
I just noticed how extremely curved that funnel is
curves you say?
oh my god
WHAT IS THAT
WHAT IS THATTTTTTTT
eternal veldt
Got this one as well
spring briar
I love WT’s model for Clemenceau
eternal veldt
probably not painted in that silo grain colour, maybe.
green sphinx
i will pretend to not have heard zhat
What u doin on naval art
spring briar
ACADs and all
elfin blaze
I love WT’s model for Clemenceau
is it just me or yall feeling a special way after seeing this
green sphinx
Ofc it's Wt cause better engine
foggy hatch
What u doin on naval art
what u mean?
eternal veldt
I love WT’s model for Clemenceau
ACAD is good, but not using the Modele 1935 for the 100 CAD is criminal imo
green sphinx
what u mean?
Game
eternal veldt
and also intentionally ignoring the booklet of general plans given to them that included a catapult
spring briar
probably not painted in that silo grain colour, maybe.
You got the pictures of JB firing at the American TF?
pulsar bronze
Got this one as well
Was this during her scrapping?
eternal veldt
You got the pictures of JB firing at the American TF?
Don't think I have.
eternal veldt
Was this during her scrapping?
No, 1945.
eternal veldt
The guns in Turret 1 were used to repair Richelieu's Turret 2 after the SD21 charges + shells decided to do a funny at Dakar.
spring briar
Don't think I have.
One sec
eternal veldt
and one sent to Dahlgren to manufacture the 380mm shells for Riche.
I think I only have the quay side photos of Richelieu at Dakar firing at Resolution/Barham
haven't saved them
eternal veldt
Interesting - really just paired firing with the cradle limitations and all that.
spring briar
Interesting - really just paired firing with the cradle limitations and all that...
Seemingly
Could still be staggered
Idk
eternal veldt
Just wondering if they're already aware of the dispersion issues at that point and opted to fire like that
or just trying to bracket the US ships
spring briar
They knew of the issues with dunk
We need more footage
I recently bought the 4 part book series on Dunkerque, Strasbourg, Richelieu and Jean Bart
Waiting for that to arrive
eternal veldt
I don't remember if I shared footage of Dunkek firing before or not
https://youtu.be/yqDgEZbbzSY oh yea, should be these.
spring briar
Yes
autumn sorrel
Jesus, nearly 300 missed messages 
spring briar
Most of them are vitriolic nonsense
subtle prawn
So it was something incredibly stupid like I initially believed
spiral cedar
i they dont find her, they cannot kill her. and as i know, 32 ships fired at bis...
32 ships did not fire on Bismarck.
There’s Norfolk and Suffolk who spotted her before Denmark Strait (and got Bismarck to knock out her own forward radar by firing at them);
Hood and Prince of Wales at Denmark Strait;
Victorious who torpedoed Bismarck;
Ark Royal (escorted by Sheffield and Renown) who torpedoed Bismarck twice, including the fatal torpedo hit to the rudder assembly (Sheffield also was fired on by Bismarck but she did not return fire);
5 DDs (Cossack, Maori, Zulu, Sikh, ORP Piorun) who harassed her at night;
Rodney, King George V, Norfolk (again), and Dorsetshire for the final battle.
So if we include aircraft carriers, that's 3 BB 1 BC 2 CV 3 CA 5 DD for a total of 14 ships that fired on her.
All told, Bismarck left port on the 18th of May 1941. The British were tipped off by the Swedish cruiser Gotland on the 20th. Norfolk and Suffolk found Bismarck on the 23rd, and Bismarck fires on Norfolk (knocking out her own forward FuMO 22 radar). Hood and Prince of Wales fought her and Prinz Eugen on the morning of the 24th at the Denmark Strait. Wales scores the first hits, but Hood mistakenly fires on Prinz Eugen until Bismarck's fifth full salvo hits her at medium range, scoring a hit near a magazine (probably 4") that causes her 15" magazine to explode, sinking the ship. PoW's accuracy declines after that and she disengages, having scored 3 hits on Bismarck and taking 5 hits in return (2 from Bismarck and 2 from Eugen, with 1 uncertain). Later in the day Suffolk, Norfolk, and PoW engage with Bismarck and Prinz Eugen, though neither side scores hits. The distraction allows Prinz Eugen to split off from Bismarck and slip away. Due to U-boat fears the British ships then start zig-zagging to avoid submarines, allowing Bismarck to slip away.
Late in the day Norfolk finds her again and Victorious launches 9 Swordfish, scoring 1 hit around midnight that causes slow flooding into a boiler room (later pumped out). Norfolk and Suffolk lose their radar contact with Bismarck early on the 25th, and with fuel running low some of the British ships have to slow down or return to port. A Catalina finds Bismarck on the morning of the 26th, but only Ark Royal of Force H is close enough to launch an attack. Sheffield is sent out to shadow Bismarck to guide the bombers in, but Ark Royal's 14 Swordfish find Sheffield instead and attack her, with no damage inflicted. In the evening Sheffield finds Bismarck and begins shadowing her, and Ark Royal's 15 Swordfish score 2 hits, one of which does minor damage but the other of which hits the rudder complex and completely destroys Bismarck's steering ability. In the rough Atlantic seas Bismarck can now only slowly wobble towards the British pursuers, sealing her fate. Bismarck fires a few salvos at Sheffield to keep her at a distance.
On the night of the 26th the destroyers Cossack, Maori, Sikh, Zulu, and Piorun (Polish) make contact with Bismarck and launch some torpedo attacks, though in the night no torpedo hits are scored. Bismarck's aft radar set is out of action during this period, though it's not known when exactly it was disabled. On the 27th, Norfolk, Dorsetshire, King George V, and Rodney catch up to the Bismarck, and proceed to open fire. After about 40 minutes, with her man battery disabled, Bismarck's crew ceases damage control efforts and begins abandoning ship, though she takes another 70 minutes to finally roll over and sink (the British torpedoes from Norfolk and Dorsetshire unintentionally counterflooded her and made her rolling over take longer).
spiral cedar
I tend to do that
green sphinx
Hm
foggy hatch
I tend to do that
I quickly looked over the text, and i correct myself. As i stated "as i know", it was meant as "a friend told me", so thank you for your correction. (one sentence wold've been enough)
spring briar
On the night of the 26th the destroyers Cossack, Maori, Sikh, Zulu, and Piorun (...
I sent them the “bismarck’s final battle” page on navweaps as well in the hopes they read it at some point
foggy hatch
Hm
You were asking me something earlier, then broke off. Would you mind repeating that?
spiral cedar
I quickly looked over the text, and i correct myself. As i stated "as i know", i...
I use "to my knowledge" or "as far as I'm aware" to communicate my level of confidence with less confusion
I listed out the ships in order to count them so I figured I may as well send the list rather than just a number. A number without historical context is just a factoid of little value except in trivia books; a description of the historical place of that number is instead informative and educational
As for the chase narrative, that was to elucidate the timeline of the chase, since "days" to sink her is ambiguous as to what that entails
spiral cedar
8 bombs and goodbye
Force Z? The sinking of HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse took 34 bombs and 51 torpedoes
http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/OOB_WWII_Pacific/OOB_WWII_Force-Z.php
foggy hatch
Force Z? The sinking of HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse took 34 bombs and 51...
"To my knowledge" it took 8 "Hits" (not bombs, sorry) that were critical and sank them
spring briar
By that reasoning
In a similar manner Bismarck took a similar amount of “critical hits”
foggy hatch
By that reasoning
In a similar manner Bismarck took a similar amount of “critic...
hood took one
spiral cedar
it was the whole rudder block, hit by a massive payload
To be specific, it was a 338 lb aerial torpedo warhead, which is about half the warhead of a typical submarine or surface launched torpedo. It did do unusually heavy damage however (Bismarck's survivors said the hit caused the entire ship to 'whip' from the shock) because it detonated in contact with the stern bottom rather than against the ship's side (British aviators reported the hit lacked the usual "plume" of water from a side torpedo hit). When a torpedo hits the side of the ship, most of the energy is vented into the ocean, with only about a third going into the hull of the ship. Under-bottom hits vent much more directly into the hull and historically tended to be very deadly, and no effective torpedo defense for them could be designed
foggy hatch
To be specific, it was a 338 lb aerial torpedo warhead, which is about half the ...
I am not a native English speaker, so i didnt understand "lb", and the rest was about what i meant
spiral cedar
lb = libra, meaning "pound". 2.2 lbs ~ 1 kg under standard Earth gravity
foggy hatch
this was in context of the three british warships that were sunk, not the bismarck
spring briar
Same logic.
spiral cedar
I am not a native English speaker, so i didnt understand "lb", and the rest was ...
Just adding information. The warhead wasn't big, but the damage was
foggy hatch
lb = libra, meaning "pound". 2.2 lbs ~ 1 kg under standard Earth gravity
i dont know pound. use kg please
spiral cedar
i dont know pound. use kg please
spring briar
A pound is roughly half a kg
spiral cedar
1144 Prince of Wales took her first hit about half an hour after the start of the air attack, a torpedo hit that struck the outboard port shaft. This is the "fatal" hit (and first hit) because the damage and flooding along the shaft will cause both reduction of maneuverability (both port engines stopped) and a large amount of flooding as continued engine operation widens the damage of the dislocated prop shaft.
1223-1227 3 torpedoes strike the starboard side. 2 do minor damage (1 to the extreme now and 1 to the torpedo protection near "B" turret), the third strikes aft of "Y" turret and destroys the watertight boundaries set up after the first torpedo hit on the port side. Prince of Wales is already sagging heavily astern when this hit strikes high up on the hull, and will cause her quarterdeck to settle below the waterline.
1244 One 500kg bomb hits the ship amidships and explodes on the armor deck, venting blast and fragments upward into the uptakes of one of the starboard boiler rooms. Six more near-miss bombs land on the port and starboard sides, causing the hull plating to split on the seams with the rigid external armor plate as the riveted connections fail. This allows for considerable flooding, which combined with the first torpedo hit (to port) will cause fatal loss of stability.
1310 Prince of Wales has now lost power to all shafts and Abandon Ship is called.
1315-1324 PoW's port side list rapidly increases, and she suddenly capsizes to port.
So in total, 4 torpedo hits (1 to the extreme bow starboard, 1 to the torpedo protection starboard, and 2 fatal ones to the stern on each side), 1 direct bomb hit, and 6 damaging near-miss bombs.
(I wonder if the more continuous and flexible outer hull of ships with internal armor belts is less susceptible to near-miss underwater explosions splitting the hull plating at the seams? Would be an interesting factor)
Repulse was direct hit by 1 bomb, and absorbed 1 torpedo hit that did minor damage. Then 1 torpedo hit jammed her steering gear, and soon after 2 (possibly 3, though wreck dive could not find it) more torpedoes hit. She listed heavily to port and sank at 1233.
The Japanese torpedo warheads were 150 kg (331 lbs)
spiral cedar
bismarck threw less weight downrange than most ww1 battleships
I wouldn't say "most." Yes, the most heavily armed WWI battleships had a heavier broadside (e.g. Queen Elizabeth class, Pennsylvania class), but others had about the same broadside weight (e.g. Iron Duke class, Nevada class), and many old battleships (including pre-dreadnoughts) remained in service (ships are usually designed to serve for about 25-30 years after all). Sure by "treaty" battleship standards her firepower was pretty average, but during WWI there were a lot of smaller battleships floating around that bring the median down
spiral cedar
As for Bismarck's armor protection, here's an old writeup I did
Here as well
Though I should note that Bismarck's sloped decks were 4.33" (110mm) across the entire slope; it was not thicker over the magazines like I thought in 2021. Which doesn't help matters
west radish
junior trench
The fuck happened in here
spiral cedar
Some sort of nauseating mix of roleplaying, pseudonationalism, and using the history channel as a dumping ground for sewage in the guise of historical analysis
junior trench
I'm sure hoping it was RP nationalism
But even as RP nationalism some of that stuff was uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
spring briar
“My nationalism is stronger than yours”
west radish
maiden citrus
“My nationalism is stronger than yours”
Nevada love no diffs
spring briar
Her smooth turret roof will soften everyone’s discourse
spiral cedar
Passing through the Shetland Narrows at 0900 on 8 April in a south-westerly gale 7-8 with gusts of near-hurricane force, Z 11 Bernd von Arnim suddenly sighted Glowworm about 7,000yds abeam on her starboard side. At 0922, when the range had closed to some 6,000yds, von Arnim opened fire. The action was reported by Z 18 Hans Lüdemann, which with Z 5 Paul Jacobi changed course to assist Z 11. Z 5 heeled to 55° in the enormous seas, five men were swept overboard (though subsequently rescued) and water came into the boiler room through the ventilation shafts, extinguishing five boilers and putting the port turbine out of action.
Despite the conditions, Z 11 scored hits on Glowworm, but the British destroyer was also shooting well and forced von Arnim to increase speed and make smoke. At 35 knots her bows drove under in the mountainous seas, damaging the bridge and forward command stand coamings and smashing the wheelhouse windows. No 2 gun became jammed in the hard a-starboard position and the torpedo aiming gauge on the port side became unseated. Two men disappeared overboard. The bridge was awash to knee height, and only after stopping both engines and putting the rudder hard over did the destroyer begin to recover. Her top speed was by now reduced to 27 knots.
Heeling 55 degrees 
spring briar
Fun
subtle prawn
runic ermine
https://youtu.be/Yhfkv_8COoA?si=GhfF6GNSvuyy-TNj
Why is there Austria-Hungary's naval flag in the thumbnail?
eternal veldt
I find it amusing that the Bismarck bingo has to be deployed unironically
Sadly, no true lines were made
runic ermine
This?
cyan oriole
But the bismarck was basically perfect, had just bad luck
fact check false
bismarck is somewhat average
sure the bismarck didn't have crippling issues to iron out for 1-2 years (NC vibration, KGV guns not working, Richelieu shells + ammunition supply + overrated guns), but the Bismarck was also egregiously over treaty limits
cyan oriole
ok to be fair for the bottom left: just because an Italian or French battleship would fare just as badly doesn't mean anything to the bombers that are sinking you
that one is one of the better Bismarck criticisms
junior trench
Let it die
cyan oriole
truth, shoutout to japanese
not having radar to knock out in the first place doesn't count
Kappa
cyan oriole
Let it die
oh I thought it said PM not AM
why do the europeans do everything in the middle of the night 
spiral cedar
There are deliberate design trade-offs, there are teething issues, there are add-on equipment issues, and there are outright design flaws.
Bismarck having very poor horizontal protection is an example of a design trade-off. It doesn't make the decision a good one, but it was made intentionally and the downsides have an upside (saved weight that can be reinvested elsewhere). Likewise was her use of distributed armor; at the cost of tonnage and a modest reduction in overpenetrations she gains protection against cruiser-caliber HE and DD-caliber guns to her bow and stern waterline.
Bismarck disabling her own radar when firing would primarily be a teething issue, since it's an unintentional 'bug' in the equipment that can be remedied over time. In the event Bismarck did not survive long enough to see the radar shockproofing improved, but presumably Tirpitz did.
Bismarck's base-fuzed shells having a rather high dud rate is an equipment issue. It's not something that her designers intended and there's no consequent benefit, but it was moreso a consequence of issues with Krupp's base fuze design of the period rather than a temporary issue.
Bismarck's mediocre torpedo defense system arrangement was more or less a design flaw (or, at least, not state of the art for the period). While the depth (thickness) of the system was average for the period, the 2-layer system relying on a medium-thickness holding bulkhead to absorb the majority of the blast and fragments was a less effective arrangement than the 4- or 5-layer parallel-bulkheads system dating back to the Tennessee class, which would maximize the resistance of each individual bulkhead before rupturing and therefore permit a greater explosive charge to be resisted. Likewise the structural discontinuities in the system created areas where strain could concentrate and break the system prior to the bulkheads absorbing the maximal possible energy.
There are a variety of examples that could fit into each of these categories, though like most treaty-era battleships the naval designers of the time were generally good enough with battleships for most examples to fit under the "design trade-offs" category
Relatively low broadside weight for her tonnage and time period? Design trade-off; the Germans preferred the ballistics of lightweight shells for their high explosive shells and then matched the APC ballistics to their HE.
Weak deck structural strength? Design flaw; the single-layer main armor deck with no backing plate was more susceptible to single cracks causing the entire structure to fail than a double-layer main armor deck which would prevent a single crack from doing this due to the plate discontinuity. Probably somewhat contributed to the failure of Bismarck's stern structure as a result of the torpedo hit there.
Split single-purpose 15cm anti-surface and 10.5cm anti-air batteries? Design trade-off, and probably the right one; most navies simply did not have a good DP gun in that time period and there's little reason to think a fresh Kriegsmarine attempt at a good DP gun would've been successful compared to split dedicated batteries. The US 5"/38 is an exception rather than the norm, and even it had teething issues early on.
Terrible medium AA? Equipment issue; the designers work with what they have and a single-shot 3.7cm as your AA is not going to be sufficient against WWII era aircraft.
Turret 'forehead' slopes? Design flaw; the forward angle hurts their protection despite the extra thickness, allowing them to be penetrated a few thousand yards sooner than the thinner, but horizontal, flat roof.
eternal veldt
I would like to elaborate on the decision to choose DP guns as a secondary armament is also dependent on the context of the navy. Contemporary views hold that 6 inch is the minimum calibre required for destroying an offending smaller ship before it can get into a range that would inflict damage on a capital ship when it comes to self defence. Alternatively, it is also ideal to have a defence screen made of smaller ships to protect the capital ships from these smaller vessels.
The Kriegsmarine neither has the tonnage nor the ships required for forming a defensive screen for Atlantic operations; the failure to create a large amount of Atlantic-worthy destroyers, whether in terms of seakeeping or sustained cruising range, makes the employment of the 6" battery at least sensical, if not normal in contemporary times. Rather, imho, the outliers are the RN and the USN, who were capable of and could afford to construct qualitative escorts in sufficient numbers for the desired operations of their battleships.
spiral cedar
6 inch being the minimum was not a universally held idea; the USN for example prided itself on the 5"/51 batteries of their older battleships for anti-torpedo work
Whether they were right is another matter, but it is a reason the USN was more willing to accept the 5"/38 as the sole anti-torpedo battery for their fast battleships
eternal veldt
Per my memory, the RN struggled with choosing a calibre as well, with some thoughts floating around the use of the 4.5" as a tertiary battery and the 6" as the secondary battery.
The 5.25" is an attempt to try to find balance in that, though...not to exceptional success like the US 5"/38.
spiral cedar
The Royal Navy tried every possible caliber between 4 and 6 inches under the Sun, frankly
maiden citrus
some multiple times
eternal veldt
Given the amount of 4" to 6" weapons I'm seeing on the navweaps page....yea.
The Mark I* gunhouse would improve things to some degree in relation to the crampedness, but a tad too late for the actual war effort.
spiral cedar
There are three infinities: the universe, human stupidity, and the number of British naval gun types between 4" and 5.25". And I'm not sure about the universe.
maiden citrus
6 inch being the minimum was not a universally held idea; the USN for example pr...
yeah shoutout to the 5''/51, large danger space, flat aiming, fast traveling shell
eternal veldt
Im more amazed that the solution to the 5"/25 and 5"/51 diaspora is to just the take the middle cut, and it somehow works out.
subtle prawn
I would like to elaborate on the decision to choose DP guns as a secondary armam...
Question, why did some early aircraft carriers have heavy cruiser caliber guns then?
eternal veldt
Granted, plenty of time to get the teething issues out of the way.
spiral cedar
Question, why did some early aircraft carriers have heavy cruiser caliber guns t...
After occasional contact between Blue surface and aviation forces with the Black striking force on 24 January, erroneous reporting on the location of Black battleships on 25 January led Lexington to launch a strike when the Black battleships were in fact only 15 miles away, hidden in a heavy squall. When the battleship emerged, they took Lexington under fire as she continued to launch aircraft before she turned and used her superior speed to escape into another squall line. While she should have been judged sunk, the desire to keep Lexington in the maneuver, led her to be ruled heavily damaged, thus limiting her ability to operate aircraft for a time and reducing her maximum speed to 18 knots.
After completing the launch, his force was operating in a foggy area. Blue battleships sweeping the Gulf of Panama spotted her at fairly close range and “sank” Saratoga. A short while later, a Blue submarine fired a spread at the carrier, and she was again ruled “sunk.” However, the carrier was allowed to continue in the problem, which later included additional air strikes and naval gunfire attacks on shore targets, an engagement of opposing battleships, and a truly odd early morning “surface” engagement between the two large carriers using their 8-inch guns against each other at about 9 miles.
subtle prawn
Doesn't exactly sound like that great of an idea now considering most carriers typically were out of gun range
spiral cedar
Now, sure, but at the time?
eternal veldt
Carriers are unproven at the time.
spiral cedar
Carriers were meant to be the eyes and ears of the fleet, meaning they'd be sailing with a few cruisers as escort on long range missions where they might bump into enemy advance forces at the drop of a hat. Having some guns to shoo off a small cruiser isn't such an outlandish idea
Likewise the speed and range of aircraft in the 1920s was a lot worse than the late '30s and '40s
And even then, carriers did get into gunfights a few times in WWII (Glorious, Matapan, Taffy 3)
With hindsight we know that maximizing AA ended up being a better use of the tonnage but everyone overestimated AA effectiveness prewar
subtle prawn
I'm aware of those instances, but if you ever have to use those guns against surface ships, something bad has happened
eternal veldt
Likewise the speed and range of aircraft in the 1920s was a lot worse than the l...
In the IJN's case at least, the aviation proponents go back as early as the late 1910s, who weren't really viewed with seriousness until aircraft started to pack a lot of punch
spiral cedar
I'm aware of those instances, but if you ever have to use those guns against sur...
Well sure, but if you've been torpedoed something bad has happened, yet we consider torpedo defense something good to have
eternal veldt
I think it's been iterated here and elsewhere before, the early designs for Midway did contemplate an 8-inch armament before
Taihou's early requirements also wanted 6" guns for self-defense, but were then removed.
subtle prawn
I think it's been iterated here and elsewhere before, the early designs for Midw...
In turrets or casemates?
subtle prawn
Huh, I don't think I've seen early Midway-class ideas until now
spiral cedar
That's Taihou
eternal veldt
Oh, my bad.
Just to clarify, I don't think Midway's ever made it onto the drawing board - Friedman mentioned some thoughts around 1940 or so, but I don't have the carrier book with me now.
subtle prawn
Also, 126 planes under 30,000 tons? Ambitious unless the planes being carried were smaller than the typical plane
spiral cedar
Origami
spiral cedar
yeah shoutout to the 5''/51, large danger space, flat aiming, fast traveling she...
3150 fps momento
maiden citrus
indeed
spiral cedar
Really their main downside (besides not being able to hit high altitude aircraft) was that they didn't mount enough of them
6 guns per side at 8-9 SPGPM, even with favorable ballistics, is dicier than 10 guns per side at 15 SPGPM
spring briar
Love the 5”/25 as well
spiral cedar
Great submarine gun in particular
Main downside is that if you're going to fit powered elevation and training gear as well as a housing for weatherproofing and strafing/light fragment resistance, you might as well spend a few more tons to get a 5"/38 with similar rate of fire but higher muzzle velocity
So if you're doing open mounts a la merchants it's ideal
But for serious frontline combatants a full 5"/38 setup is generally worth getting
Bridge reported a target broad on the starboard bow (Ayanami). Main battery directors were so blinded
by 5-inch fire that they could not find a point of aim.
When your 5"/38 battery is firing so fast that your main battery can't see the target
spring briar
If I had the option to go 5”/38 I would
A bit difficult in the early treaty era
Wichita was the first of the CA’s to get it iirc
spiral cedar
Yeah
eternal veldt
Ayanami got bagged pretty hard
spiral cedar
And even she got pedestal mounts
eternal veldt
Funnels all demolished fairly early
spring briar
The open 5”/38’s on the Faraguts are funny
eternal veldt
Sims' one is the interesting one for me
No steel covered tops, canvas only - probably to do with weight
spring briar
Thats what i think of when I hear Sims
eternal veldt
I don't have the mount data on hand to show how much weight is shaved compared to a standard Mk.30 mount.
Could be worse, I suppose.
Chidori.jpg
subtle prawn
cyan oriole
In turrets or casemates?
turrets, here's a 3x3 203mm pre-Midway design from 1940
the thick side armor of the Midways is a relic of the anti-cruiser defense requiement, which is at its most obvious here
there's also one that's more like a Lexington
just with 152mm DP
cyan oriole
And even she got pedestal mounts
the wichita reconstruction would have been interesting, especially to compare with say Savannah
cyan oriole
Wichita was the first of the CA’s to get it iirc
yeah the first of the cruisers period, wichita entered service a few months before st louis
theoretically the ideal treaty CL in armament might be something like 3x4 152, with 5x2 127 (1 on the centerline aft)
mental tapir
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbCeKNcr6Wk
Someday when the B-52's airframes are so worn that that they are no longer economical to even maintain, they will probably be replaced by cargo planes dropping JASSMs Rapid Dragon style
Alternatively a new subsonic "cheap" bomber may be made to supplement the B-21 Raiders
Even China's still making new Xi'an H6s even though they're most likely not survivable outside standoff engagements
subtle prawn
I doubt they'll be going away that easily when they're needed for nuclear bomb delivery
west radish
remote monolith
friendly PSA that the Abbasid court is doing this basically partly for amusement since Caliphs tend to be VERY invested in one side or the other
novel cliff
Lmfao. What book is this even from?
remote monolith
Lmfao. What book is this even from?
Misquoting Muhammad: The Challenge and Choices of Interpreting the Prophets Legacy, Page 35
and for good measure, here's an internet archive link for it https://dn721802.ca.archive.org/0/items/replacement-pdfs/misquoting.pdf
novel cliff
and for good measure, here's an internet archive link for it https://dn721802.ca...
Very interesting, thank you
spiral cedar
Interestingly, when I bump up the muzzle velocity from average-gun 2400 fps to new-gun 2483 fps, at a 90 deg target angle the main belt + sloped deck pens happen out to 13k yards not 8k (SDCP). Goes to show how sensitive sloped deck arrangements are to small changes in shell energy
For comparison, belt penetrations (eff, cp, and pp) are only shifted by 2k yards compared to 5k yards for the sloped deck
maiden citrus
spring briar
Interestingly, when I bump up the muzzle velocity from average-gun 2400 fps to n...
yep!
also the nature of the shell after passing trough the main belt
it's going to be uncapped
and if it hits the slope with the tip pointing just a little too close to parallel with the face of the slope it's going to ricochet and only cause a split in the slope
or a deep gouge
spiral cedar
Did some recalculations using new-gun muzzle velocities for the British 14”/45 Mark VII (KGV gun; previously I had been using ‘average gun’ muzzle velocity for most British guns which in this case was 83 fps lower, but I have acquired more detailed data over the intervening years). Only did the broadside case (90 deg target angle) for now; main belt is significantly affected by the target angle but flat deck is not. This is a machinery section.
Red trajectory (Main belt + sloped deck)
The max range that the UK 14”/45 penetrates the main belt + sloped deck is now 13 kiloyards. The main belt alone suffers effective penetrations out to 26 kiloyards.
Green trajectory (Upper belt + main armor deck [outboard])
The minimum range for complete penetrations is **25 **kiloyards.
Blue trajectory (Upper belt + longitudinal bulkhead + main armor deck)
The minimum range for base-first penetrations (tumbling, little residual velocity, not fit to burst) is 15 kiloyards. The minimum range for complete penetrations is **18 **kiloyards.
Purple trajectory (Upper deck + longitudinal bulkhead + main armor deck)
The minimum range for base-first penetrations (tumbling, little residual velocity, not fit to burst) is **15 **kiloyards. The minimum range for complete penetrations is **24 **kiloyards.
Roughly speaking the 40mm longitudinal bulkhead (assuming Wh armor) is to add about 1 kiloyard to the outer immune zones
Upper belt is 35mm for reference; I assume Wh
spring briar
Lots a space in the machinery room
spiral cedar
Surely no shell from 20 kiloyards could reach it 
The big discovery from this is that you don’t even need her heeling into the shell or base-first direct hit into a boiler or anything to explain the machinery knockout
Bog standard average hit to the deck (through the upper belt) will do the trick
All I can say is
Refer to my server nickname
spiral cedar
I will note that the green trajectory hits the 105mm portion of the main armor deck, so it isn't as bad as it might look by comparison. But I doubt it'll be any better than the purple trajectory
spring briar
Bog standard average hit to the deck (through the upper belt) will do the trick
yes.
can you check vs Dunkerque APC?
subtle prawn
runic ermine
worst use of the mirage in history
Argentina's Mirages
mental tapir
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPiYZARE3jw
At least they managed to delete quite a few Br*t*ish ships so it wasn't for nothing
Revenge for Trafalgar/Mers-el-Kébir and all that
subtle prawn
runic ermine
spiral cedar
can you check vs Dunkerque APC?
Interestingly, not that much different for complete penetrations. Complete penetration is still 29 kiloyards and beyond for the upper belt + longitudinal bulkhead + flat deck penetration. We do get base-first penetrations from 19 to 28 kiloyards, so that's something, but those would usually not be crippling
spring briar
Mhm
spiral cedar
Sometimes I look at my old incomplete calculations and wonder where the heck I left off
spiral cedar
Did some recalculations using new-gun muzzle velocities for the British 14”/45 M...
Added the green trajectory (35mm upper belt + 105mm outboard main armor deck). In this case, the thicker outboard portion of the main armor deck (105mm instead of 80mm) improves the resistance to complete penetrations by 1 kiloyard (minimum range to penetrate completely now 25 kiloyards), and also prevents all base-first penetrations (deck too thick here to permit them).
cyan oriole
Refer to my server nickname
scharnhorst deck over machinery is only 80mm?? that's awful
spiral cedar
On the centerline, yup
cyan oriole
that's so troll
spiral cedar
On both the deck slopes and on the portions outboard of the 40mm longitudinal bulkheads it’s 105mm
Which also means that Scharnhorst has, on average, better bomb resistance than Bismarck
Since Bismarck has an actual upper belt she has 80mm across the entire flat deck over machinery
cyan oriole
Which also means that Scharnhorst has, on average, better bomb resistance than B...
does the smaller ship size make it easier to provide the armoring?
spiral cedar
Not really
It’s just redistribution of the armor weight to other areas
The weight used in Scharnhorst’s thickened outboard deck armor and longitudinal bulkheads (and some barbette armor closer to the armor deck) gets put into Bismarck’s upper belt instead (145mm instead of 35mm)
But of course upper belt armor, while providing coverage against ‘plunging’ hits at moderate ranges, does nothing against delay fused bombs
cyan oriole
The weight used in Scharnhorst’s thickened outboard deck armor and longitudinal ...
in a way, you can't even call that folly, because once you're subjected to mass air attacks, you're probably lost anyways
doubt a differently designed scharnhorst or bismarck or tirpitz end up any more successful
spiral cedar
Could’ve given Bismarck rudder scuttling charges 
Maybe a deep lower belt could’ve prevented the PoW hit that caused the oil slick that allowed the PBY to find her
But that’s very much “designing with hindsight”
spiral cedar
doubt a differently designed scharnhorst or bismarck or tirpitz end up any more ...
On 13 February Gneisenau passed through the Kiel Canal and went immediately into drydock at the Deutsche Werke. Kriegsmarine standing orders prescribed that prior to a shipyard lay-up or entering drydock, a warship must discharge her stock of ammunition, but for reasons that have never been explained Gneisenau went into drydock with her shell-rooms and powder magazines full. Less than two weeks later this error would prove fatal. Presumably the original purpose of the drydocking was merely to allow a survey of the mine damage before the ship was transferred to Gotenhafen for full repairs, but Gneisenau was still in the dock during an air raid on the night of 26/27 February.
She suffered only a single hit. The bomb struck the forecastle, and, having penetrated the upper and battery decks, detonated against the armour deck. The hot explosive gases were sucked through the ventilators into the magazine below ‘A’ turret and ignited the powder in the shell cases for the ready ammunition. There followed a chain reaction: the powder went up in a great jet of flame and the excess pressure lifted up ‘A’ turret and tossed it askew. All members of the turret crew were killed. The ship’s final death toll was 112. A catastrophic explosion was only averted by immediately flooding the shell rooms and magazines. On 23 April Grossadmiral Raeder visited the ship.
This bomb abruptly ended Gneisenau’s career.
Maybe if the main magazine hadn’t been directly under the main armor deck, Gneisenau’s bomb damage would’ve been easily repairable without the magazine deflagration
At the very least, with more deck armor it would seem likely that Scharnhorst escapes Duke of York at North Cape, even if a Tirpitz-like career is all that awaits her afterwards
spring briar
Interestingly, not that much different for complete penetrations. Complete penet...
Not that much different from KGV 14” CP?
spiral cedar
Not much different from upper deck + main armor deck pens for the 330mm
spring briar
Makes sense
spiral cedar
I think part of the difference is that the French AP cap gets knocked off on average by the longitudinal bulkhead
0.121 calibers > 0.12
(Obviously that just means a coin toss)
Whereas for the British 14” there is a meaningful difference because the upper deck will strip the AP cap but the longitudinal bulkhead will usually not
spring briar
The cap on the French 13” and British 14” are relatively similar in size but ofc the British shell is larger
spiral cedar
Yeah
Also the British shell is assumed to be Firth cap so it potentially has the edge effect
spring briar
spiral cedar
btw do you have hardness data for the French AP caps
spring briar
There’s more edge on the french cap than the british nipple
spiral cedar
I assume they peak at over 600 BHN
spring briar
And they’re soft (~250 BHN) where they are crimped into the shell
I don’t know the exact number though
Will try to find
spiral cedar
spring briar
Also the British shell is assumed to be Firth cap so it potentially has the edge...
That’s only the cardonald of scotland shell
And they only made 8” and 15” iirc
All 14” should have the hadfield nipple cap
(Flat nipple)
spiral cedar
The 14" Hadfield design did not "bite" a 7.25" US WWII Class "B" armor turret roof plate at 55 degrees from right angles (all of my obliquity numbers use zero as right-angles) and skipped off while the US 14" Mark 16 MOD 8 AP shell (90 pounds lighter in total weight), with its roughly 135-140-degree angle at this windscreen threaded joint dug into the face with the standard '12% drop in NBL bonus' and penetrated at the same striking energy. A Firth 14" Mark IB APC shell with its "Knob-and-Ring" cap (same as the Krupp WWII L/4.4 APC shell AP cap design) would have had an even sharper corner at the threaded ring and thus also gotten that bonus, I am sure.
spring briar
This test iirc
spiral cedar
I’ll try seeing what effect the cap has tomorrow if I have time
spring briar
I have some issues with the claim that the 14” mk.16’s cap does and the hadfield cap doesnt get the bonus
The parts of the caps that hit the plate are remarkably similar
If you look at the armor plate from the test you can see that the place where the shells hit leave similar marks on the plate
At this point the cap is already broken or stretched and the ogives of the shells themselves are grinding against the plate
With the ogive of the Mk.16 of course being rounder which gives it enough bite to dig into the plate instead of sliding off
In this particular case they should both get the edge effect
Or neither should get it
And I’m being very fair to both shells here
I’ll make a diagram
spring briar
Left to right:
French 330mm
14” Mk.16
British 14”
55° obliquity vs 7.25” class B
As far as I’m concerned, in this specific case
It has less to do with the cap shape and more with the shape of the ogive
cyan oriole
>>> On 13 February Gneisenau passed through the Kiel Canal and went immediately ...
wasn't that because the ship was in drydock, which meant relaxed safety standard? and that if the ship had been at sea and at full readiness, that wouldn't have happened
cyan oriole
a battleship being destroyed by a bomb that doesn't even penetrate the armor deck seems sus
spring briar
The magazine ventilation pulled in hot gasses from the explosion
Which set off charges in the mag
spiral cedar
This is Okun’s consideration of the oval nose
He leans on other test data to exclude the nose shape effect at this T/D
He seems also to be saying the initial impacts differed visually
Maybe there’s a higher resolution picture of the test out there somewhere
spring briar
Possibly
Also I agree with the sharper nose shells being better at dealing with thinner plates (makes sense: thinner = deforms more easily so the sharp nose will dig into the lip of the crater)
But the whole cap edge thing is still controversial to me
He’s a bit too dismissive with the British AP cap imo
My drawing doesnt lie
spiral cedar
The only way I could see the diagram “lying” is if the British shell depicted is of the early interwar period
Hadfield’s caps pre-1930s were similar to WWII USN caps
But changed afterwards
The only 14” British shells the Japanese got were WWI and early interwar ones for the Kongōs
spiral cedar
wasn't that because the ship was in drydock, which meant relaxed safety standard...
The ship was at action stations at the time of the attack. British analysts speculated the hatch for the ventilation could’ve been left open, but the Germans themselves believed that the hatch was closed but had been blown off by the explosion. We probably won’t know for sure
spring briar
I used this
which is from NPG 4-47
which has the test with the 7.25" class B plate
a good possibility is that the American cap simply gets knocked off first while the British one stays attached and yanks at the shell nose causing it to yaw away from the plate
and these are so low quality I can't really use them
it could just be the slight slight curve above the edge
spiral cedar
it is a slight roundedness
But it does feel like a large effect for a small shape change
spring briar
we both know the effect a couple degrees can have
it could actually be right at the limit
combined with this particular plate being a bit stiffer than normal so the sharp tip of the British shell couldn't dig into the lip of the gouge
I'm not going to lose sleep over it
spiral cedar
The Intact Cap Effect Option is a YES only if the hard cap can be decapped, but not shattered at some plate thickness range, and at an angled impact above 45 degrees the intact, but decapped cap (by the struck plate or by a decapping plate too close to the main armor plate) is tilted but still pressed onto the nose of the shell, making a larger hole necessary and thus degrading penetration ability. It only happens with oval-nosed shells with no points -- essentially only US Navy mid- or late-WWII AP shells (there may be a couple of others, but not many).
Nathan Okun
If the US Cap is dislodged sooner but stays intact it would presumably have a negative effect
spring briar
heh it's fun when you come to the same conclusion
at this angle I feel like it would make a considerable dent before getting knocked off
but getting knocked off intact is a bit doubtful
like it's going to maybe be half a cap if you feel me
but create a deep gouge ofc (its hardened steel vs class B)
and the now freed up round nose digs into this
spiral cedar
In this case I believe shatter T/D for 55° is 0.37, so for this ~0.5 cal hit it should consistently shatter
Shatter before the shell penetrates, that is
spiral cedar
Though whether it survives long enough to affect the initial penetration 
spiral cedar
try measuring this
This looks a bit more rounded than the drawings, interestingly
spring briar
Though whether it survives long enough to affect the initial penetration <:Think...
it's going to have created its initial dimple in any case
spiral cedar
Maybe limitations of pen line drawing
spring briar
This looks a bit more rounded than the drawings, interestingly
yeah
prob gonna be it
need to get my hands on the actual shell drawings
it's still going to be only a couple degrees of difference
spiral cedar
it's going to have created its initial dimple in any case
Yeah, I should’ve said how deep before the cap is fully shattered. Maybe it lasts until about when the shell changes direction within the plate after spur formation?
spiral cedar
need to get my hands on the actual shell drawings
Imagine getting hold of the original moulds 
spring briar
Yeah, I should’ve said how deep before the cap is fully shattered. Maybe it last...
I think knowing this will actually make all the difference
more than the edge effect would in any case
the location of the dimple created by the cap vs the location of the nose is going to be very important
spiral cedar
Cap hardness does affect the shatter, that we know since the triple-alloy caps break up much earlier and get the 40% penalty
Maybe a ~600 BHN cap shatters slightly earlier than 555 BHN?
spring briar
need me an ansys fluent lisence
spring briar
Maybe a ~600 BHN cap shatters slightly earlier than 555 BHN?
I do have the microetches
spiral cedar
I think I asked Okun about it before and he said it might, but that since he didn’t have specific differentiating data he didn’t treat them differently
spring briar
hmm
the dimple created by the cap
is to the right of the line of travel of the tip
because this tip is sharp but it turns away from the lip of the dimple
while for the US shell, because the cap is longer, the lip will be a bit to the left of the line of travel of the blunter tip
or is it as always a combination fo multiple effects that at this angle all play an important role
interesting
anyways I'm going to draw British 6" and 8" shells now jaba
and maybe USN 8" if I can find good enough sketches (probably from NPG 3-47)
runic ermine
Oh yeah it's January 8th today
https://x.com/i/status/2009220537487380595
X
timber linden
Oh yeah it's January 8th today
https://x.com/i/status/2009220537487380595
Jackson did more with 3 regulars, a bar full of drunks, a couple of Freeman,...checks notes....and pirates that the French empire did in spain
cyan oriole
The ship was at action stations at the time of the attack. British analysts spec...
makes sense
urban geyser
Hat I got
supple sandal
runic ermine
Jackson did more with 3 regulars, a bar full of drunks, a couple of Freeman,...c...
Ironic you say that because more British soldiers present at New Orleans were veterans of the Peninsular war
timber linden
Ironic you say that because more British soldiers present at New Orleans were ve...
Yes, confirmed the bar rabble was better than whatever the french were fielding in spain
autumn sorrel
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1441192897096716321/1459198934177022105/m...
I mean, I love that Dreadnought too but...
cyan oriole
on a youtube short about german tanker uniforms... 3 guesses what the replies are about
pulsar bronze
3 guess per person or the entire chat?
cyan oriole
3 guess per person or the entire chat?
3 guesses from the magic genie in the lamp
pulsar bronze
Hmmm.... Is it something-something Hugo Boss related?
desert agate
Sincerely Allied uniforms almost universally looked better than krautslop
spice idol
https://youtu.be/SE5Yk97TGoQ?si=2oABWXvdPy4Ub23f
The six-part project will chronicle the largest battles of the Great Patriotic War: the Battle of Moscow, Stalingrad, and Kursk, the Siege of Leningrad, the crossing of the Dnieper, the liberation of Belarus, and the capture of Berlin. The film combines an objective account of the war's history with the personal recollections of those involved, which will be brought to the screen through newsreels and live-action reenactments. "Victory" is a film that reveals real human destinies behind the grand historical events.
cyan oriole
no sevastopol? sadge
runic ermine
Sincerely Allied uniforms almost universally looked better than krautslop
I mean didn't we mostly all wear British or American uniforms?
Especially the minor countries
Also I guess it depends cuz for example the Polish Army in the West and the Polish Army in the East wore different uniforms
rapid junco
Especially the minor countries
My country (🇧🇷) used a mix both nationals and US ones
Contrary to the popular believe of US uniforms only
west radish
Wait no more KC-10s
subtle prawn
Yeah, they were retired
west radish
So basically no Refuel Tankers currently in the USAF?
subtle prawn
There are still KC-135s and new KC-46s
Last I heard of the KC-46, it was still having problems, not sure about now however
desert agate
I mean didn't we mostly all wear British or American uniforms?
All commonwealth nations had their own uniforms, based on British uniforms but tailored to local conditions
Individual units also had local uniform tradition
urban geyser
I want a soviet one
spice idol
no sevastopol? sadge
Увы про Севастополя нету
west radish
spiral cedar
Reactions by the crew of USS Salt Lake City when the ship went dead in the water during the Battle of the Komandorski Islands
spring briar
“I can’t spare this man ship, he she fights!”
novel cliff
Reactions by the crew of USS Salt Lake City when the ship went dead in the water...
Thats great, what book is it from?
spiral cedar
Thats great, what book is it from?
Lorelli, John A, The Battle of the Komandorski Islands, Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MD, 1984.
novel cliff
Lorelli, John A, The Battle of the Komandorski Islands, Naval Institute Press, A...
Excellent, thank you mate
spiral cedar
<:warShrug:432566539452022796> it is a slight roundedness
dug up this last night
spring briar
Yeah
this is from the 15”
Probably similar to the 14”
@spiral cedar
Hadfield conical 
spiral cedar
What cap shape is this
spiral cedar
For when this is your main means of sinking enemy ships
west radish
spring briar
Watched this recently
west radish
Love French navy ships
spiral cedar
Gallons per minute?
Yah all US customary
spring briar
I guessed by imagining how much water would flow trough a one inch hole two feet deep
Intuition is a handy tool
spring briar
Love French navy ships<:DorkHeart:585585238139338777>
Have this Algérie stability test
west radish
spring briar
Her mast was very tall
Lots of effort was put into making these ships usable while adding as little weight as possible
So that one of the only modifications that could be accomplished was increasing main gun elevation and the FC equipment
cyan oriole
the gargantuan pagodas are definitely more memorable though
than tall martian-looking tripods
subtle prawn
mental tapir
subtle prawn
autumn sorrel
https://fxtwitter.com/__CJohnston__/status/2011204905424368088
Stern launcher just scream “I don’t have time to properly redesign this shit, just bolt it on any free surface.”
autumn sorrel
https://fxtwitter.com/__CJohnston__/status/2011204905424368088
I still think those 2 side by side 5inch gun should be remove for VLS space.
mental tapir
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03WI8N0G-gQ
cyan oriole
I still think those 2 side by side 5inch gun should be remove for VLS space.
or just remove them to cut down weight
which is the larger concern
this thing is a mega waste of money
carmine remnant
What is Kursk in game based off of if anyone would know? Because Kursk IRL is a submarine, no?
spring briar
Kursk is based off the Soviet project X heavy aviation cruiser
excuse me for using topwar.ru
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
spiral cedar
The "Old Lady", Bushnell was prepared environmentally by the Norfolk Naval Shipyard. [Furthermore, she was completely "buttoned up" with all watertight doors/hatches securely dogged.]She was towed to the SINKEX operating area along the Virginia coast in deep water south of Norfolk. I remember the weather as being bright and sunny, which made it easier to control shipping in the area. P3 patrol aircraft from NAS Norfolk supported the ops.
When we finally got the area cleared of interfering shipping, the firing submarine, USS Atlanta (SSN 712), with USS Finback (SSN 670) in company, was ordered to submerge and proceed to the firing point which was several miles from the target, which was now adrift, the tug having cast her off.
The submarine then fired one MK 48 ADCAP torpedo, which exploded underneath the Bushnell. The tough old bird began to slowly list to port, and over the next hour had taken on considerable water. But she refused to go down. As the day began to wane, we decided to send her to the bottom with a second torpedo. She sank within the hour [after being hit by the 2nd torpedoe], rolling over and then going down stern first.
It was a dramatic and yet sad sight, but it was good to know that she served her nation until the very end, participating in a large ship sinking exercise to validate the tremendous power and capability of the new MK 48 ADCAP Torpedo Weapon System. And she created a wonderful habitat for the marine life on the bottom of the Atlantic.
burnt scarab
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhOQJIQ21Gg
I've seen that in Generals At War. I never like that flak gun cause it can shoot planes and tanks
spiral cedar
What's wrong with that
urban geyser
Tanmk
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
shrewd pecan
3 man crew, hybrid diesel, crewless turret, apparently doable to crew with only 2 people, can be operated by only 1
Current tank is a pre prototype for crew tests so wouldn’t represent the final vehicle though it’s gonna be maximum 60 US tons
Looks promising
subtle prawn
twilit geyser
https://fxtwitter.com/AaronMatthew_L/status/2011896496145514733
Inb4 the BBG(X) is just the Navy’s way to retain DDG(X)’s capabilities while appeasing the big boy himself 
What a useless hunk of steel with that displacement
spring briar
we need more hulls
Not less that are bigger
That’s soviet nonsense
junior trench
mfw the hulls the navy lays down in 2028 (if even that early lmao) are suspiciously DDG(X) sized
spring briar
timber linden
Temu navy time
subtle prawn
exotic pulsar
Can someone look over a script for me?
Working on a Bismarck video for a maritime history channel
spiral cedar
Can someone look over a script for me?
How long is it?
spiral cedar
I meant rough word count, but that's good to know as well. I could look it over, though the level of detail will depend on the timetable. What sources have you been using?
exotic pulsar
Ah
I haven't thought of the word count tbh
For sources, I have a Haynes book on Bismarck (considering its the only one I own, ranging and numbers via Wikipedia and had to use a few documentaries on Bismarck just as cross-reference
spiral cedar
There's quite a bit of conflicting and old information (for example, some ship plans are still undergoing ongoing digitization) so it would definitely help to get some high-quality and modern primary and secondary sources to help. I have several and there've been a fair few discussions on various aspects by myself and a few others here that have helped separate fact from fiction, so I can assist in bringing some of those details into the script when appropriate.
What aspects are you focusing on? Design history, technical details, operational history, comparative analysis, etc.?
exotic pulsar
For part 1, I'm focusing on Bismarck as a whole
Part 2 is the same for the Hood.
History of both ships leading up to their first naval combat in Part 3, to which is the sinking of the Hood
Part 4 is the search for the Bismarck
Part 5 is Bismarck's Last Stand and that's where I end it off
subtle prawn
Did you check to see if those documentaries were considered trustworthy enough?
spiral cedar
So it looks like the overall topic is the operational history, with part 1 focusing on the design and technical aspects, part 3 being the start of Weserubung and Denmark Strait, part 4 the chase, and part 5 her final battle
Roughly how long is the video for each part? 5 min, 15 min, 50 min?
exotic pulsar
I haven't determine how long each part is going to take
spiral cedar
I do think it would be good to have a rough idea, since that will impact how much detail is appropriate for each script. A 50 minute treatment can allow for much more detailed discussion than a 5 minute one, which necessarily must focus on the big ideas in compact form
exotic pulsar
Did you check to see if those documentaries were considered trustworthy enough?
There is one from History Channel and another from Animarchy History
I'll have to see if I can try to find another for crossreferencing
spiral cedar
Unfortunately neither of those are particularly high quality in terms of factual basis
(entertainment value is another thing)
But I'd again have to take a peek at the script to see whether your other sources make up for the shortfalls of those videos
exotic pulsar
I sent the script to someone to check it out and see for themselves
Funny enough, when it comes to Titanic or Lusitania; I'm loaded
Warships is a different story
spiral cedar
Opposite for me
And then there are the rare people who cover both (e.g. Bill Jurens)
desert agate
Animarchy used to be a semi regular in this channel