history

[autumn sorrel]

Konstantinos XI Palaiologos

[desert agate]

William Bligh

Nobody likes him everybody hates him

[autumn sorrel]

I am curious, he is known to be a hard-headed and generally not an easy to work with person but in both case where he was mutinied against, technically he was in the right to perform hard discipline or enforce the authority of his position. Wouldn't that make him kinda neutral?

[desert agate]

Being legally in the right does not make bad political manoeuvres any more justified

He should have handled both situations diplomatically rather than forcing multiple independent groups of people to decide his leadership had to end

It was his utterly inflexible personality that caused him so much strife

He did himself no favours

[narrow rover]

Aniva lighthouse

Ownership: Japanese empire -> Soviet Union -> Russian federation -> Abandoned

[desert agate]

https://fxtwitter.com/AusAirForce/status/1981646849317482912

Royal Australian Air Force (@AusAirForce)

A striking display of air and sea power ✈️⚓️
︀︀
︀︀#AusAirForce F-35A Lightning II aircraft fly over HMAS Ballarat off the coast of Malaysia during Exercise BERSAMA LIMA 25.
︀︀
︀︀#AusAirForce #YourADF

**💬 1 🔁 2 ❤️ 23 👁️ 737 **

FxTwitter · Oct 24, 2025, 9:00 AM

first time i've seen a picture of an Anzac with NSM equipped

[mental tapir]

https://youtu.be/4StKhdMPIvM

[brittle glacier]

I am not surprised, but very saddened.

[narrow rover]

Lighthouses from 1910s are rare I assume?

[woeful hound]

Sad

[brittle glacier]

I dunno about that, but it’s got history, as a History nerd I do not enjoy history being abandoned.

[narrow rover]

More stupidly it was abandoned because the frigging USSR didn't dispose of the RTG they used

And locals took it apart themselves and irradiated the whole thing

[brittle glacier]

Holy fucking shit.

Not the first time one of those RTG’s caused radiological incidents.

[peak mango]

All lighthouses (that still need lighting) should be replaced by metal piles and LED beacons and solar power. At least according to the maintence guys I know.

[peak mango]

Ewww... I guess you shouldn't put the RTG in your bathtub.

[desert agate]

Other than heritage lighthouses, most are being replaced right now

At least here

[peak mango]

That and virtual ATON

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYdrPg6xdYo

[runic ermine]

Why was the BFC so small compared to other foreign SS units?

[brittle glacier]

<@&472236072743600148>

[runic ermine]

@hexed hornet we got a scam bot

Thanks

Anyways back on topic, compared to other foreign units, the BFC was extremely small

Even another Commonwealth unit that fought for Germany (The Indian Legion) was much bigger

Also side note, the name British Free Corps is kinda misleading as there were also Canadians, Australians, and New Zealanders in the BFC

In fact, the last surviving member of the BFC was Australian and he died in 2002 I think

[desert agate]

Firstly because the British mainland was simply never occupied and secondly because Britain was a rare example of a country at the time that did not just play lip service to the ideas of liberty and democracy but actually embodied them

[desert agate]

But also incredibly small compared to the Czechs, French or Ukrainians

I mean the Azad Hind which was literally trying to invade India in 1943-44 remained pathetically small

[runic ermine]

I was referring to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Legion

Also fun fact, Aliexpress sells minifigs of these guys

[runic ermine]

Honestly that last part is something I never really thought about

[runic ermine]

Even small compared to the Americans however most Americans were ethnic Germans and volunteers. Especially before the US joined the war

[narrow rover]

The foreign units in Germany really highlight the ideological aspect of the European front huh

[runic ermine]

Yep

[peak mango]

Sarcasm level? Looks like they proctected them (mostly) from being fodder for the front, vs to try to get a force to dislodge the UK from India.

[runic ermine]

Think about it, German propaganda painted it as a bunch of races uniting against bolishvism

Operation Barbarossa included Germans, Italians, Romanians, Hungarians, Finns, Slovaks, Croatians, French, and more in volunteer units

Also the Vichy French unit's name literally translates to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_French_Volunteers_Against_Bolshevism

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3m3zact2ybh2u

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

Proceedings Photo of the Week: Marine Corps CH-53E Super Stallion helicopters lift an M777A2 howitzer and a Joint Light Tactical Vehicle during the 2025 Marine Corps Air Station Miramar Air Show in San Diego. Marine Corps (Sarah M. Grawcock)

Bluesky · Oct 25, 2025, 11:00 AM

[runic ermine]

I wonder if any American soldiers during the War of 1812 had the attitude of "My dad fought against the British for our independence and I'll be damned if I don't fight against the British to keep our independence!"

[narrow rover]

Apparently the last person borj in the Edo era died in the 1960s

This man saw the demise of the samurai, Japan's empire growing bigger and bigger, WW1, the great depression, the great Kanto earthquake, WW2, the US occupation, and postwar Japan all in his lifetime

[brittle glacier]

Imperial German Sturm Truppen, a Japanese Samurai and a cowboy walk into a bar.

[narrow rover]

Alt history story where those three stop WW1

[brittle glacier]

They perpetuate it.

https://tenor.com/view/skeleton-gif-26267675

[narrow rover]

I wonder if nailing Sasebo with a meteorite around 1903 might have fixed everything
Acupuncture for the earth
Like Japan probably wouldn't go to war with the Russians with their premier naval base and probably a few warships gone and that's maybe going to help Russia be better prepared for WW1

They won't lose their entire navy, for one

Okay lemme be clear I don't endorse blowing cities up with meteors. THIS IS JUST A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT

[desert agate]

A meteorite sized sufficiently large enough to destroy a naval anchorage would probably do a lot more damage than you might think

The bikini tests proved many things, one of those things was that even high yield nuclear weapons are very poor anti ship missiles

[remote monolith]

for context, this was made by a mere 50 meter long object

its a kilometer in radius and about 100 meters deep

[desert agate]

So in order to destroy the warships around Sasebo you would need an explosion considerably larger than that of a large nuclear weapons

most of the Japanese fleet wasn’t even anchored near Sasebo anyway

[remote monolith]

I'd say the best thing to stop it is to drop the meteor at heian-kyo

not only it'll stop WW2, but also stop the Imjin War, the Onin War, and 3 dozen other conflicts

[desert agate]

I think the Ezo should have won

That would be really cool and funny

I’ve been to their fort

It’s not that exciting

[remote monolith]

naah the Ezo sucks, monarchist scums

[desert agate]

It was a republic…

[remote monolith]

that serves the remnant of a monarchic Shogunate deriving its power from the Emperor's official mandate

[desert agate]

I just think they were neat tbh

[remote monolith]

like you can't separate the Shogun from the Emperor because the Shogun officially is just the Emperor's representative

[desert agate]

US inspired constitution under a vague idea of republicanism and democracy

So based…

[remote monolith]

it just so happens successive Shoguns after Go-Daigo managed to completely warp that so that the Shogun is the supreme ruler while the Emperor is limited to religious duties

Hideyoshi went even further and took the title Kanpaku instead, also elevating it to a Shogun-equivalent

althought he did do that because as a lowborn he's barred from the title and had to settle for the title of Regent

[desert agate]

A feudalistic republican aristocracy fighting a constitutional monarchy with ironclads in the 1860s is actually the coolest thing ever

[remote monolith]

wrong, the coolest thing is actually Raden Wijaya's guerilla campaign against the Mongols

trapping horsemen in a jungle island for three months after tricking them into destroying another kingdom that toppled Wijaya's father-in-law

plus establishing a long-lasting Mandala that dominated the region for a long time

[narrow rover]

The resulting tsunami will probably flip things over

[remote monolith]

that depends on whether the meteorite is air burst or not admittedly

[narrow rover]

The naval facilities at Sasebo were just about being built iirc

[narrow rover]

It has to hit the water I think

Maybe the Tunguska meteor can be magically sped up so that it arrives a few years early over somewhere in Japan that'd hurt the army

[remote monolith]

my Emperor an explosion has hit Edo

[narrow rover]

If it's like 1900, I think public opinion can be influenced
The Japanese public wasn't exactly LETS FIGHT THE RUSSIANS until late 1903, so...

Though that might need a biiiit more damage

Say, drop it near Nagasaki and sweep the coastal regions near it with a tsunami, probably can cause damage roughly equal to the Great Kanto Earthquake

[peak mango]

Just go for the ELE sized asteroid.

[narrow rover]

I said acupuncture for the earth not radiation therapy

[narrow rover]

Honestly the moment the guy holding it all together ran out of money, Ezo was fucked

Unless someone was stupid (or daring) enough to fund him

[remote monolith]

that ranges widely

at worst you get the terrifying, Everest-sized monstrosity that was Chixculub

[narrow rover]

Also I was probably right with Sasebo serving as the primary base of operations. Turning that into scrap metal would be a massive blow to the IJA

[remote monolith]

god, every time I remember the Chixculub I remember how when it hit the earth part of it jutted high above the Troposphere

like it was fucking scary

[narrow rover]

I mean that thing was like 20km wide

[remote monolith]

not that big, but still monstrous, 10 to 15 km more or less

basically vaporized everything on contact, created kilometer tall tsunamis, and oh right, BURNED THE ATMOSPHERE ITSELF

[narrow rover]

Yea, that's a mass extinction event

[remote monolith]

even among mass extinctions K-Pg was unique because almost everything basically died within like days to months

there's evidence it hitting the earth caused forests all around the globe to fucking combust spontaneously

like a lot of animals didn't die slowly, they got boiled alive by the air itself turning into a sea of fire

[narrow rover]

Topography of Sasebo

Hmm
Something big hitting that bay will probably fuck shit up

[remote monolith]

oh yeah that's a tsunami trap

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC10_s0-xVQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfEZlm90GbQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig91JEjolEk

[brittle glacier]

How do y’all think a large caliber naval cannon would stand up against modern C-RAM?

[white rose]

Why does Tanikaze say she and Hamakaze sunk Helena in-game when it was actually her and SUZUKAZE who sunk Helena? Hamakaze was only transporting troops in Kula Gulf. I'm not sure if it was just a simple mistake on Manjuu's behalf or if there's more to it. I don't know, maybe they have a feud with Suzukaze the same way they have a feud with Tone.

[desert agate]

Poorly

[desert agate]

Because the writers aren’t very good and haven’t been for a long time

[peak mango]

Depends on the fusing. Killing shells is hard.

[brittle glacier]

‘S what I figured.

[shrewd pecan]

No? Killing a larger shell is gonna be easier than intercepting a mortar round

Which systems like phalanx are capable of

In terms of why you’d end up in a situation like this I have no idea

[brittle glacier]

A 16” shell, even HE, has much thicker steel walls than you’d think.

Part of why a 76mm has worse HE than a 75…

[shrewd pecan]

the phalanx fires APDS

one of its mission sets involve being the last line of defense against missiles with reinforced protection like Shipwreck

https://archive.org/details/Mk.14920mmPenetration/page/n1/mode/2up

[desert agate]

Actually hitting the shell isn’t a problem knocking it off course moreso
Far easier with a Phalanx than a missile

Shells move a lot slower than missiles

[shrewd pecan]

I kinda doubt a 16 inch shell is gonna sustain a burst from a 20 MM APDS round capable of penetrating a inch of steel out to a KM

[desert agate]

Usually

[shrewd pecan]

this as well

[brittle glacier]

I think the super heavy mk. 8 Shells are a bit more than an inch...

[shrewd pecan]

I doubt they're going to sustain

a full burst of 20 MM APDS

since even if the first round fails to penetrate

the following 10-20 rounds are likely to do so

alongside you know

the projectile likely being knocked off course by eating multiple impacts

[desert agate]

You don’t really need to penetrate the shell you just need to hit it with enough force to divert its course

Far easier and more reliable with a gun based system than a proximity fused missile

[desert agate]

Or just change the aerodynamics enough

Pretty easy with a 1in deep hole in the front from a 20mm shell

Even a minor change to the shell’s aerodynamics will send it off course

Also like, I understand the argument is purely hypothetical but you can hit a shell at a longer distance compared to a missile, and that shell won’t do any follow up damage after it’s been hit

Missiles are really tricky to intercept because once it gets close enough it doesn’t matter how many times you hit it, you’re going to be sprayed with debris thanks to the sheer kinetic energy of the weapon, and on modern ships, which are incredibly dense with cables and wiring, you’re going to take serious system critical damage

Shells don’t really break up like that, once you hit it it’ll just divert into the sea and that’s about it

[narrow rover]

The Germania dome

I dunno if a 300 meter wide dome was possible.

[remote monolith]

even if it was built, Berlin was built on top of dried marsh grounds

that shit gonna start sinking in no time

[narrow rover]

Eh, depends on how much you want to dig the foundations

I don't think Speer was the most... realistic building designer lmao

[remote monolith]

he did built those extremely heavy concrete pillars to see how long until buildings sank

it sank like, 19 cm in two years?

that's bad

[narrow rover]

Soviet airship concept

[zealous vine]

Does anyone have a diagram of the Midvale Unbreakable 16" shell

I've checked through Navweaps and this channel's history to no avail

(I've no books at the moment, and I don't suppose Friedman's naval gunnery book has been digitally scanned else that'd be piracy)

I'm tryna derive the shell design of the 18"/48 from the 16" Mk1 since the target shell of the 18" has been stated to have been based on the aformentioned shell.

[spring briar]

You’re thinking of this 18”

[zealous vine]

Yes I'm thinking of that 18

I assume it's 1:1 but just scaled up right? Or at least very similar

[zealous vine]

What's different about this component or material wise to the later super heavies?

Aside from mass ofc

The windshield seems smaller and less angular

[spring briar]

Yea

[spring briar]

SHS has a longer body, bigger cap and bigger windscreen

[brittle glacier]

Lobbing does not get enough love.

[desert agate]

Toss bombing is better because it doesn’t require you to fly over your likely defended target and put yourself in danger

[brittle glacier]

Pretty sure the Lob is just there to buy the aircraft to fuck off before the nuke goes off, but yes, too much level, glide and dive bombing. Not enough YEET Bombing in media.

[shrewd pecan]

not a lot of movies focusing on cold war era nuclear weapons delivery

[timber linden]

https://youtu.be/tO_660lZAME?si=4Q0RhPHQLC_7Qajo

The first wife

[brittle glacier]

I can’t remember mine, I’ll need to check.

[spring briar]

[narrow burrow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/528197562998718474/1407749761896812676/3dgifmaker88364-4.gif

[zealous vine]

Ofc it's a Spe-chan pfp

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWbetcjS8SM

[desert agate]

<@&472236072743600148>

[thorny scarab]

@wintry lichen Okay but maybe we don't do that

||Much as I am rooting for you guys,|| I'd really rather not have the channel devolve into modern day politics.
Just how we do.

[desert agate]

He’s just spamming to annoy people and rage bait

[autumn sorrel]

Huh, did I miss something?

[supple sandal]

Yeah we have guided bomb now so

[peak mango]

Numbers game. Best case, single round incoming, 16" prematurely detonates, ship has enough armor to survive the mass of semi exploded metal coming in hot. Not so great case - no detonation, it's a salvo, multiple AP booms in the middle of a weakly armoured modern ship.

You'll have to add in that CIWS has limited amounts of pew, there's only a couple of CIWS per ship ...

[peak mango]

To divert a car-sized amount of mass is a hard ask.

[shrewd pecan]

A salvo of at most 9 rounds with two phalanxs that have more than sufficient fire rates to deal with it

[desert agate]

aerodynamics are not particularly kind in this regard

[peak mango]

Neither is mass*velocity

[desert agate]

you do not need to make a significant change to the aerodynamics of a shell to send in careening in the wrong direction

[peak mango]

Depends on the phase of flight.

[desert agate]

You can intercept a shell far sooner than you can intercept a missile

shells are generally just easier to target because they're in your field of view for longer

[peak mango]

You really can't alter the vector of a shell coming down in it's final couple of km.

[desert agate]

You really can

And even if you couldn't, again, you can engage it from further away

Even a relatively slow subsonic seaskimmer will be in your targeting horizon for considerably less time than a shell on a ballistic trajectory

[peak mango]

maximum engagement altitude is somewhere around 10km. 20-30mm rounds aren't going to make a significant velocity difference against a ton of metal coming down in the next couple of seconds.

[desert agate]

40x 20mm rounds will

There wont be much shell left really

[shrewd pecan]

40 rounds of 20 MM APDS is gonna shred the shell apart I’m ngl

[shrewd pecan]

like even if it they fail to penetrate into the warhead and detonate it the shells coming out of the other end of that engagement completely deformed and with greatly degraded aerodynamics

[peak mango]

Part of why CIWS fires so many rounds is that it doesn't expect to be that accurate, so accuracy through volume. Odds of a full burst hitting a shell are fairly low.

[peak mango]

Terminal characteristics don't get altered much by surface deformations.

A detonation, yes.

[autumn sorrel]

Modern FCS is way different than early CIWS FCS

[peak mango]

https://youtube.com/shorts/m_5cjImImOo Relatively recent video. Surface target. You can figure out the relative arc angle yourself.

But detonating an incoming mortar round with a chance single bullet hit is a lot different than a faster, tougher barrage of battleship caliber. IMHO. There's already scant enough footage of CIWS v. 155+ tbh.

[peak mango]

Literally glide bombs today, though. Pop up, bomb arcs + added aero/guidance from winglets.

[brittle glacier]

Doesn’t have the same aura of a good ole hardball…

https://tenor.com/view/sponge-bob-brick-sponge-bob-square-pants-like-a-bag-of-bricks-like-a-ton-of-bricks-gif-4475886

[shrewd pecan]

toss bombing is still a thing btw

In terms of the over the shoulder attacks like that I don’t know if they’re still used but you know

even with guided ordnance toss bombing is useful and aided by that type of thing

[peak mango]

Yeah over the shoulder is kind of .. um..

but pop up toss is very modern day with all the winglet bombs.

[shrewd pecan]

over the shoulder attacks could still be a thing considering most of the gravity bomb nuclear arsenal isn’t guided yet

[peak mango]

Not sure that flying over the target area before doing the maneuver is a great move at all.

[shrewd pecan]

Doing a nuclear strike in a F-16 or tornado now of days is usually not the most survivable type of thing regardless

[peak mango]

Might as well stay low and ride it in.

[shrewd pecan]

I’m assuming it’s either just tossing the damn thing or over the shoulder like that

[peak mango]

I'm not huge on the B61

[peak mango]

straight up pop up toss and turn

[shrewd pecan]

there slowly being phased out with newer B-61| with guidance kits

past that meh the equation changes once it’s primarily F-35s with B-61s

[peak mango]

Eh, still straight toss and turn. Flying over the target then tossing over the shoulder only makes sense if you're just purely worried about the bomb's effects and want to be as far away as possible. It's stupid in any other context with effective AD that can stop you before you can launch.

[spiral cedar]

A 16" High Capacity Mark 13 shell, 1900 lbs, fired at a 20 deg angle of elevation with standard service charges will reach the ~4000 yard effective engagement range of the Phalanx CIWS 20mm APDS Mk149 rounds with about 10 seconds of remaining time of flight. The walls of the shell are 3" thick all around (unusually thick for an HE-type shell, but the USN wanted its HC shells to be capable of delayed action penetration against concrete coastal fortifications). At that distance, the 20mm ammunition has fairly poor penetration (<0.4"), so we'll look at the effect it'll have on the shell's velocity, using the relative kinetic energies (and assuming a totally inelastic collision) as a rough estimate of the change in point of impact. The HC Mark 13 will have a velocity of about 1459 fps (1388 horizontal and -449 vertical components) and will be coming in within about 5 degrees of the final angle of fall. The 20mm Mk149 has a mass of about 0.204 lbs and will impact at about 1000 fps. This gives the Mk149 an impact energy of about 0.1 mega-foot-pounds, compared to the Mark 13 with about 2022 mega-foot-pounds. This will change the 16" shell's velocity in a best-case head-on impact by about 0.04 fps, which is much less than the inherent variations in muzzle velocity of the shell due purely to temperature variations in the shell room. Given a 2 fps difference in muzzle velocity will change the point of impact by more than the beam of an Arleigh Burke, and that the true mean dispersion of the shells (in range) at the impact range (~27k yards) is already 5 times the beam of an Arleigh Burke, even the impact of a few dozen 20mm shells will have less an effect on the trajectory as the natural inherent variations of the gun-fire control system of the 16"-armed ship itself. Closer impacts will have more 20mm impact energy, but the cone of possible landing areas shrinks as well--and remember that the danger space is larger than the width of the ship itself.

What about penetration? We'll take the opposite extreme. The chart shows 1.2" RHA (360 BHN) at a 45 deg impact at a ~100 yard range. There is a roughly linear velocity and penetration relation, so we will assume best-case of a nearly head-on impact, adding the 16" shell's impact velocity to the 20mm shell's. This increases the RHA penetration to about 1.4-1.5". The HC shell body is also somewhat softer, so we may add another 10% to the penetration depth--let's say 1.65". We still aren't at the requisite 3" of penetration to get through the shell wall (excluding the fact that the shell is very pointed, so most impacts will have to go through much more than 3" LOS thickness). The shell does have a nose fuze, which could be destroyed by a direct hit, but the USN overengineered their HC shells (uniquely) with an additional backup base fuze (again, intended for bunker-busting capability), which will not be vulnerable to the 20mm shells. So you'd need to land at least two 20mm shells in the same ~20mm diameter overlap to have a reasonable chance of penetration into the shell cavity. Even if you achieve penetration, the Mk149 ammunition does not explode on impact with an internal explosive charge, so it will rely on the heat generated by the penetration process to set off the payload. The payload, however, is Explosive D, which was specifically chosen to be insensitive to high-order detonation by anything other than a meaningful bursting charge (hence the many dud issues until the mid-1920s). We know what happens when Explosive D is ignited, which is that it slowly burns (not exploding) over the course of minutes. In the tenth of a second before impact, the amount of Explosive D consumed by combustion will be negligible, and the chances of a premature detonation from penetration are likewise negligible.

[peak mango]

Same argument for a goalkeeper at a 10km effective altitude (being really generous) The trajectory adjustment is fairly meaningless unless there's a detonation of the HE.

[autumn sorrel]

So basically, can't pen the shell but the best you can hope for is making it miss?

[spiral cedar]

Your best bet is for the shell to miss on its own

[peak mango]

No.... old school shells are big as fuck, and puny ciws isn't going to do much.

[spiral cedar]

The spread of the shells is sufficiently large even without interference that slightly nudging it a few dozen times is equally likely to take an off-target shell on target as the reverse

[autumn sorrel]

Laser guided 16inch shell when

[peak mango]

And the engagement envelope and # of CIWS isn't enough to to do much about. I mean I ❤️ CRAM but it's not magic.

[peak mango]

engage the lasing platform.

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, what about IJN 18inch shell?

[peak mango]

also, because of the mass of a 16", terminal aerosurfaces likely won't help much either.

[peak mango]

moar mass, less sensitivity to terminal inputs. Nevermind fusing and guidance and making it go boom prior to impact.

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah but how thick is the shell wall?

[spiral cedar]

Best bet would be to wreck the nose fuze, which could be done if you land some lucky overlapping hits

Since the Japanese didn't have backup base fuzes

[shrewd pecan]

for this entire argument I should of just pointed out that a burke could of just hit the shell with a Standard and called it a day

[spiral cedar]

I mean, the ABurke would just hit the firing ship with the Standard and call it a day

[shrewd pecan]

this is true

[peak mango]

Yup.

[shrewd pecan]

but the argument was the ships defenses against a salvo

[peak mango]

defense sucks. I mean I ❤️ modern defense, but once something's launched at you, it's still a harder problem than something more.. prepemtive.

[spiral cedar]

Best defense would be to just turn donuts at long range since the Ford Mark 8 rangekeeper assumes constant velocity and straight line motion for the target, so radical turns at extreme range make you basically untouchable

[autumn sorrel]

Can Aegis system calculate the shell trajectory and help determine which target priority for interception via CIWS?

[spiral cedar]

Because no terminal guidance

[shrewd pecan]

[shrewd pecan]

just smack it with the 127 or a standard tbh

[peak mango]

not sure I can comment. Buuuut networking and esp multi ship networking is something that is possible.

[shrewd pecan]

a 16 inch shell is gonna be a very apparent target on radar

[peak mango]

12x16, too. Definitely incoming.

but 'how did you let something that can launch at you within 50km?'

[autumn sorrel]

So the computer can calculate where the shell will impact?

[peak mango]

Yes, that's how cram works

[shrewd pecan]

if ADA can figure that out with ground based systems I do not at all see why you can't do that at sea

especially when Aegis has to determine what missile is actually gonna hit the ship or not

[spiral cedar]

The shell will be obvious on radar (even WWII ships could track outgoing shells on radar at times); the real issue is figuring out whether any given shell is on or off track to hit you, which would basically require dedicated computer computations to read the position and velocity and try to figure out the final impact point. That's a tough ask since that'd require knowing the velocity of the shell down to 1-2 feet per second precision, which even for modern radar is a bit of an ask in a time sensitive situation, let alone if 9 of them are inbound

[peak mango]

and not only that, the CIC per vessel should be able to tell which ones are inbound to impact and assign batteries

[spiral cedar]

Realistically you'd just have to engage most of them

[shrewd pecan]

I mean SPY-1 and aegis should able to handle and engage 9 tracks

[spiral cedar]

Yeah that's not the hard part

[peak mango]

Yup. And 2-5 ciws per vessel.

afaik I don't think counter battery is networked.. (I could be wrong, hopefully)

[nimble shale]

So... Is it still worth it to operate a battleship in this day? Like the example the Iowa Class get's more retrofited and.. Maybe newer missile?

[shrewd pecan]

No

[spiral cedar]

No

[nimble shale]

Understandable

[shrewd pecan]

if you need coastal bombardment

tie a HIMARs down to the helipad

[peak mango]

Not without extensive retrofits and/or paradigm adjustments.

Aka 'no'.

[nimble shale]

Well... Because you know I seen a video maybe that the US President want to activate the Iowa class because their shell is more "Cheaper" Than a missile

But, yeah maybe she's not too compatible for today naval warfare

[shrewd pecan]

how do I put in the most politically neutral way to say he has no idea what he's talking about

[nimble shale]

Gah damn

[desert agate]

They're not cheaper because those shells physically cannot be manufactured anymore

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, why not make something base on San Antonio hull and basically strap a bunch of 270 launcher module into the side and make it like a disappear weapon system where will swing out to fire when need be.

[shrewd pecan]

why are you even making purpose built ships for this

[peak mango]

But maybe tomorrow's.

[shrewd pecan]

over just using a shipping container MLRS or a actual HIMARs

[autumn sorrel]

You mean Reagan "600 ship Navy" program?

[nimble shale]

Oh, what's that I just hear that thing rn

[spiral cedar]

Large warships are only more effective than an equal 'cost' (by whatever metric) of smaller warships if the larger hull gives you capabilities disproportionately harder to counter by smaller-hulled vessels (e.g. needing big guns to get through thick armor, or needing lots of runway space for high-performance aircraft). In the guided missile era, the size of warship needed to carry a missile capable of disabling any other warship afloat is relatively small (<10000 tons), so there aren't enough scale benefits to go bigger than about that size for missile warships (carriers obviously have a different scenario)

[shrewd pecan]

No Trump went on a rant about how he doesn't like how the current ships look

[autumn sorrel]

Bc turning an already high value target like San Antonio into a big bullseye is fun?

[nimble shale]

I'm too focusing on my country naval Ship, because they're gonna brought the first ever AC (light AC)

[nimble shale]

Ah, I see

[peak mango]

BBGN with multiple MW class laser defenses, plus modernized kinetics to deal with opponents with the same defenses, plus armor to survive hits..

[shrewd pecan]

just smack a HIMARs on the LCS since they have the actual internal volume to store a bunch of MLRS pods in them

[shrewd pecan]

go home drach

you aren't welcome here

[autumn sorrel]

What do he even want? Bring back smoke stack and over-burdenned mast?

[shrewd pecan]

he's a borderline alzheimers patient dog we don't know

[peak mango]

idk and it's kind of a strawman, Orange dude is an idiot.

[nimble shale]

Are there still a cruiser or battle cruiser that active than the Nakhimov?

[spiral cedar]

Needs more spikes and big muscles; that's how you know it's manly and virile

[peak mango]

ahahahahahah

[autumn sorrel]

As if Fat Burke isn't ridiculously looking enough

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejong_the_Great-class_destroyer

[peak mango]

every ship can carry aircraft since.. um.. the harrier, really. But containerized rail launched subsonic stealth fighters really are gonna finish that argument.

[peak mango]

she's big boned

[nimble shale]

Aahh the sejong class

[autumn sorrel]

Somehow, they make it even fatter

[shrewd pecan]

Levels of idiotic schizophrenia never before seen

[peak mango]

(yeah bad angle)

[nimble shale]

Light CV

[autumn sorrel]

Tell that to a Turk, they still insist that KAAN is Carrier-capable

[peak mango]

I mean meme shot but just a bad angle, the side shot isn't as bad.

[shrewd pecan]

Containerized rail launched subsonic stealth fighters is something I’d hear someone on ship bucket cook up and for some reason decide to defend

[peak mango]

Not our favourite DD(H) / CV(M)

[nimble shale]

Ahh I see

[peak mango]

Your kids will love it. Or you don't think that XQ-58/ XBat will get deployed?

[autumn sorrel]

The problem is containerized implied the size of the fighter will be very small so it limited the range and weapon payload. Not to mention it is subsonic stealth, might as well use Propeller plane instead

[peak mango]

You don't need it to carry more than .. say, 2-4x (medium munition) and/or (sensor package)

props, in case it wasn't mentioned, reflect radar like crazy.

[peak mango]

😉 Just saying. Kaga II is a cutie.

[nimble shale]

[desert agate]

Do you genuinely think that's Kaga?

[nimble shale]

Nah, it's Giuseppe Garibaldi

[desert agate]

Yeah I know but I don't think wy does

[peak mango]

Um. I literally said, not the one I crush on. (Kidding, she's underage)

[nimble shale]

Is it still worth to operate in big 25

[nimble shale]

[peak mango]

Not sure of her maintenance status.

[peak mango]

flatdecks are cook. harriers are cool. They're both not the current meta.

[shrewd pecan]

if those things make it onboard a ship and it isn’t doing a STOBAR take off or landing

They’re far more likely to just use rocket boosters over tryna go through the mental nightmare of making a containerized EMALs

[peak mango]

sto .. yeah. likely rocket. bar ... no? either expend or vl.

[peak mango]

containerized ...emals.. wtf. no electromagnets involved

[shrewd pecan]

Xbat doesn’t even need a catapult

[peak mango]

then why did you even talk about EMALs?

[shrewd pecan]

I saw the line containerized subsonic stealth fighters

and assumed something far more different

since that implies something closer to a harrier

than you know loyal wingmen

[peak mango]

LCS (LOL) with a quad of pop up wingmen in a pod ....

that's the pardigm.

F35 picking them up, maybe gettting refuel from one.

[shrewd pecan]

Why would you bother with this over just launching them on the carrier

[peak mango]

idk. a quad of say, F18s off a carrier has a certain radius of action.

[peak mango]

why WOULD you have something a little more pop-up meeting up with the manned control force halfway through the mission.

Say... it's not off a (not really stealthy) LCS, but say, idk, some island without any known air forces.

[shrewd pecan]

this is a circling around to the F-35 on a destroyer debate that ends with the same answer

What the fuck is the point in any of this over just using the actual armament of a destroyer or LCS

[peak mango]

LOL

[peak mango]

Depends on your opfor, doesn't it.

[shrewd pecan]

what is my opfor fielding that can’t die to a STANDARD or harpoon

[peak mango]

Have you fought sirens recently?

[shrewd pecan]

My ship borne drones aren’t doing jack shit to them either

The only use I can even see out of any of these is using X-bat as a reconnaissance drone

[peak mango]

vbat is doing okay in that regard from what I understand.

[shrewd pecan]

V-bat was made for that purpose

[peak mango]

I can see the use of pop up, reconnaissance in force. Or maybe pop up, extra magazine of aams.

pop up SEAD would be lovely too.

[shrewd pecan]

Just use a cruise missile at this point

[shrewd pecan]

The ships have standards for downing enemy aircraft

[peak mango]

sure, if you can't get a munition (or munition carrier) closer.

[peak mango]

I'm glad someone here has standards or else it's gonna be some ugly brawl

[shrewd pecan]

If I’m having to use LCS/destroyer launched drones to deal with area denial weapons I’m already at the point where I should of just tomahawked the thing ages ago

[junior trench]

more cells but less capable cells

[peak mango]

likely, but now we want tomahawks and/or other muntions looking like standard 40' containers ....

[shrewd pecan]

If you’re at the point of proposing destroyer launched loyal wingman the better investment would just be to make a tomahawk with a anti radiation seeker

[desert agate]

This exists already

[peak mango]

and tbh, our* munitions should all talk to each other and other platforms.

[peak mango]

... didn't I imply this intercom?

Hopefully siren intercept proof.

[desert agate]

https://www.army.mil/article/269227/army_successfully_fires_tomahawk_missiles_from_mrc_system

[peak mango]

you might as well link sm-6 typhon too.

[junior trench]

...

what do you think MRC is

[peak mango]

Imagine if you had a drone that could launch from the same system.. wait there is, nvm.

[junior trench]

waste of a launcher

[peak mango]

ikr .. if only you had more containerized boxcars in the world

[desert agate]

Because I want a short ranged drone to be launched in my long ranged engagement

[junior trench]

droneslop exists so people who can't afford actual capability can field something resembling actual capability

[peak mango]

🍿

[desert agate]

Drones are useless in a blue water engagement and almost useless in the littorals

[peak mango]

... interesting. (expanding your idea of 'drone') from just UAS to UUVs, btw)

Go on.

[desert agate]

Oh so you're going to change my definition for me

Great

UUVs will never supplant the crewed submarine as the number 1 capability in under sea warfare

[peak mango]

I'm your opfor. Let's just stick with UAS. How about pop up, random island sonobouys?

[peak mango]

mass == capability, sure.

mass for crew support is mass that isn't oriented to combat.

[desert agate]

UUVs are incapable of performing the roles of a crewed submarine thanks to the physics of how radio waves move in water

[peak mango]

someone doesn't give a shit about casualties and doesn't trust their AI...

also, even in a more constrained ruleset, uuv has endurance that crewed can't match.

[desert agate]

AI is inherently untrustworthy

[peak mango]

so perfect for sensor platforms.

[junior trench]

mass =/= incapability either

[desert agate]

Okay this is not productive

Blocked

[peak mango]

For sure. But on a neutral basis, mission mass > support mass.

[junior trench]

if you're working off pop ideas of military function, I guess

[peak mango]

Go on.

To be fair, 'support mass' is enabling of 'mission mass' and it breaks down depending on mission set... but I don't think you're really here to discuss that.

[peak mango]

Sorry? But you seem to have a different idea of what UUVs can do compared to modern tech, since, obv, there's lots of missions that don't require a crew, and where a crew is detrimental.

[shrewd pecan]

how does one communicate with a UUV a hundred meters below the water

[peak mango]

um ...

[peak mango]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines

[shrewd pecan]

You don’t have the necessary bandwidth to command and control a sub at that depth

[peak mango]

depends on how much you need to say.

[shrewd pecan]

most submarines can manage a short email

a UUV is going to need far more than that

[peak mango]

assuming no real time control ... I'm pretty sure that a basic short sequence opord could be given.

[shrewd pecan]

The most UUVs are replacing is submarine operations in low depth littoral regions

[peak mango]

funny... I think that most uuvs are just going to be long duration sonobeacons and listeners.

... but I don't do sub warfare and that's a wild ass guess.

[junior trench]

yeah, it shows

[peak mango]

ikr. I mean it's like the SOSUS line isn't a thing and it's not like you can't do it with remote senors from UUVs or anything...

Oh wait.. the SOSUS dates from the 50's.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOSUS

[peak mango]

your comms chain should be obvious.

[maiden citrus]

an entire Standard battleship fired as ordinance, how terrifying

[subtle prawn]

Don't some of the earlier Burkes have dedicated AShM launchers?

Because I recall seeing one fitted with a NSM launcher earlier this year and reading some of them have Harpoons

[shrewd pecan]

yes

[shrewd pecan]

I know right

[loud comet]

I'm curious, did Japan ever planned their own 380mm/381mm naval guns?

[cobalt dome]

[brittle glacier]

That’s what…15”? Hmmm…

Nothing a cursor search brings up.

[zealous vine]

Never

Not even in paper designs

Iirc it's for smoother progression. Usually it's tit for tat, like how Richy gets 15" to counter Littorio, or the Japanese choosing 18" and 20" upon the intuition of the US using 16"

[nimble shale]

So uh, is it real that Yamato big cannons is... Un-accurate one?

[zealous vine]

Inaccurate one..?

[nimble shale]

Yeah, sorry for my wrong uhh.. Text

[zealous vine]

Like the ingame one is inaccurate stat wise to real life or like inaccurate firing

[nimble shale]

The firing one

[shrewd pecan]

<@&460646206851252224> <@&472236072743600148>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera#Views_towards_Poles (for reference of who they keep posting)

[zealous vine]

Japanese shell quality was decent and fairly consistent

Data from their live firing tests showed that they were relatively accurate

It's not as amazing as the US, but it's quite respectable

[autumn sorrel]

Bruh, I hate this moden thing so much. Just bc this guy oppose Soviet, and by extension Russia, that people literally trying to whitewash history surrounding the collaborator now.

[bold trail]

On one hand I'm not sure if that required a mod ping, on the other I have no idea why they even posted that
On the third (mutated) hand I'm even more confused cos you have the exact same thing as what they posted in your status

[shrewd pecan]

they're posting a nazi collobrator who ethnically cleansed polish people

[bold trail]

I am ukrainian, I am perfectly aware who that is

[shrewd pecan]

they got warned for it before tbh

its specifically the Bandera shit I'm reporting

[brittle glacier]

Or! We could drop the issue entirely.

[bold trail]

yea they just seem like a troll

[shrewd pecan]

no they did this earlier

[bold trail]

anyway I'll handle it, thanks

[shrewd pecan]

if it was just the slava ukraine shit I wouldn't be reporting it tbh

[bold trail]

I just banned them, doesn't seem like they're here for anything productive

[shrewd pecan]

all they did was just post bandera shit out of the blue tbh

[brittle glacier]

Ah. That’s fuckin’ icky.

[shrewd pecan]

anyway I don't feel like devolving into a chat about Ukrainian far right nationalism

[zealous vine]

That helmet is goofy lol

[shrewd pecan]

could be worse

could be the eurofighter helmet with bumps

[zealous vine]

Looks proportional at least

[narrow rover]

"opium?"

"yes, opium"

[spiral cedar]

If you're talking their dispersion, the Yamato 46cm armament was one of the best of WWII, on par with the best US guns (the US 16" guns) and better than most of the battleship guns of the European competitors. The Yamato guns data set is limited, but we know from the US Naval Technical Mission to Japan report that they had a true mean dispersion (TMD) of 0.4% of range at their max range (calculated from data of 4-5 gun salvos), which is on par with the empirical 0.4% we have for US 16" guns firing AP shells.

Now, dispersion isn't everything when it comes to actually hitting stuff in battle, but for long-range shooting (of the sort the US and Japan focused on heavily), it does help a fair bit, so it makes sense that both navies succeeded with their largest guns. The USNTMJ notes that the Japanese had an overly heavy and complex delay system on Yamato's turret to introduce a firing delay on the central gun (0.3s if I recall), but admitted that it was effective in reducing salvo sizes (by reducing interference amongst shells mid-flight).

The main limitation on the Yamato in surface gunnery was not the guns or turrets or shells or optical spotting systems, but Japan being several years behind on radar research, in particular in surface fire control radars. In good conditions (clear daylight visibility and reasonable sea state) she could put up an excellent performance—she scored a damaging near-miss on USS White Plains from a range of likely 30-32 thousand yards, and scored 3 hits on USS Johnston from about 20 thousand yards in 2 salvos. These isolated examples of excellent shooting at Samar show the capabilities of her optical and (limited) surface radar systems, but also their weaknesses—besides these contributions, she had much difficulty, in part due to tactical limitations but equally due to smoke screens and local squalls that interrupted the clear view required by her fire control. This would've been the norm in 1940, but by 1944 her main rival, the USN, could put out effective fire even at long range at night (as Surigao demonstrated). While Yamato was overall an impressive feat of engineering, she remained chained to traditional limitations on low-visibility firing, unlike a few navies (particularly US, UK, and Germany) that managed to partly unshackle themselves from these restrictions through radar technology.

[brittle glacier]

“We have biggest battleship!!!”

The USN:

https://tenor.com/view/lmao-csgo-counter-strike-global-offensive-awp-gif-13789589

[peak mango]

It's not a tumah

[timber linden]

Japanese surface doctrine always confused me. They had thier chases but nerves got the best of them. Guess they didnt have bar fights in thier culture.

[brittle glacier]

Officers stopped being allowed to get into drunken brawls when decapitating impudent pleasent started to become frowned upon.

[desert agate]

Too bad the shells themselves were awful

[desert agate]

There is literally not a single instance of a Japanese surface commander shying away from a fight in WW2

The very, very few times that a Japanese surface task force withdrew was after other forces had taken damage so critical that the surface commanders were begrudgingly forced to withdraw, Kondo was not happy about his own withdrawal at Midway

[narrow rover]

Shrimply build more radars smh

[narrow rover]

https://x.com/ron_eisele/status/1982880464668078528?t=LrPan4A9V55nCV-1fdmGNw&s=19

Ron Eisele (@ron_eisele)

28 October 1936. First flight of the Dornier Do 19. German four-engine heavy bomber prototype.

X · Oct 27, 2025, 6:41 PM

RAF to the Luftwaffle: No heavy bombers?

[mental tapir]

If they'd managed to get the bombers in numbers:

Spitfires: Food?
Tempests: Food!

[narrow rover]

Ngl the He-177s did decently during Operation Steinbock

[junior trench]

By the end of the war, quality control on Japanese electronics was so poor that often only one tube in 100 actually worked, and even those that passed inspection had a mean time to failure of as little as 100 hours. For a system with 40 tubes, this meant a mean time to failure of just two or three hours.

[little palm]

Imagine being so fucked you have to gatcha your vacuum tubes

[cyan oriole]

most likely no, although the americans briefly considered a 381mm gun

during the standard battleship era

[cyan oriole]

uhh there is the very notable case of kurita off of samar

who left with nothing accomplished because he was afraid of counterattack

basically conceded the battle on the spot and threw away the entire operation

[cyan oriole]

and then the radars can't differentiate ships from islands lul

[junior trench]

maybe take a moment to account for the losses center force had taken leading up to and during the battle off samar

[terse mesa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig91JEjolEk

[junior trench]

Musashi (BB), Atago (CA), Takao (CA), Myoukou (CA), and Maya (CA), had all been sunk or rendered incapable of continuing prior to the battle, and in the course of the battle Suzuya (CA), Chikuma (CA), and Choukai (CA) are all similary rendered incapacitated.

which, I dunno if you're aware, is a lot of losses to sustain for any navy

not to mention the final straw for Kurita's continued withdrawal is the arrival of aircraft from an easterly origin, aka, from carriers not to his south, where they've been coming from the whole time prior

which is, you know, often a sign of an impending counterattack

[desert agate]

Kurita was not wrong for withdrawing when he did especially considering the information he had on hand
Pressing the attack would have achieved nothing, at least from his perspective

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, Taffy 3 sold their lives dearly and even then Kurita force already taken disproportional damage to what they accomplish to that point. Kurita might be mistaken in overestimated Taffy 3 force but he know for a fact that Halsey is coming back and if he stay for too long then his entire TF will be outflank and destroy.

[junior trench]

worth remembering that around when Kurita decided to withdraw, Sprague had also recently ordered the rest of his escorts to commit to close engagement

Taffy 3 still had more to throw into the fight, and based upon the entire battle prior...

and with all of Taffy 3's planes in the air, it's not like the swarm overhead is going to subside even if you do sink the whole force, as they're already resupplying off land air strips

said swarm being the equivalent of multiple full sized carriers' air wings btw

you know, to maximize the stress

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, what the most Kurita could do? Taffy 3 sacrifice not only slow IJN force but allow the Marine transport to get close enough to beach if the situation call for it, he can't stop the invasion, at most delay it by few weeks or even days.

[narrow rover]

Battles are usually won and lost for good reason and iirc it takes a lot to change that outcome

[cyan oriole]

remember that leyte was a suicide mission

[narrow rover]

Unless it's something ridiculously insane like Denmark Strait

[cyan oriole]

running way from a suicide mission qualifies as "shying away from a fight"

[autumn sorrel]

No, it is not

[narrow rover]

suicide mission
What Japanese operation post-1943 isn't

What can I say, RIP

[junior trench]

the only IJN surface operation knowingly conducted as a suicide operation was Ten-Go

[narrow rover]

It's insane how these guys were like coming up with increasingly creative ways to kill themselves

[cyan oriole]

it's close enough to one, the goal is to damage the American fleet enough that they are forced to abandon the philippines invasion

the neutered carrier fleet was willingly sacrificed as a diversion

and then kurita books it

while it wasn't a bad decision from what he knew, it still coutns as "shying away from a fight"

[autumn sorrel]

It is an entirely logical goal

[junior trench]

if you ignore the whole ass multiple fights which happened

yeah

I guess you could claim that

[autumn sorrel]

Keyword here, "diversion"

[cyan oriole]

yes the multiple fights: kurita got attacked by submarines sailing to the objective, kurita got bombed sailing to the objective, and then kurita finally gets rid of the guys guarding the objective

[junior trench]

cough

[cyan oriole]

and now we are at the objective, what do we do? ah leave them be

[autumn sorrel]

They don't start out as thinking of even losing the Carrier, they accepted that they maybe lost but their intention was to lure American fleet away

[junior trench]

except he didn't do the last part

at all

[cyan oriole]

the had taffy 3 running away

and they were the only guys directly threatening

even if american battleships were only 4 hours away, there is still time

but kurita decided to shy away from a fight

[autumn sorrel]

Tbf, losing Atago could have shake Kurita up quite a lot

[cyan oriole]

yes it did shake him up a lot

[junior trench]

???

[autumn sorrel]

Again, Kurita didn't shy away from a fight

[cyan oriole]

his flagship got blasted from under his feet and he had to be fished out of the ocean

[junior trench]

what does that have to do with anything I said

[cyan oriole]

this was the original statement, what you say literally doesn't matter to what I said

I said that kurita is an example of shying away from a fight

he took 3 fights, and then he ran away from a fourth

a fourth that was winnable (or at least not suicidally losing) and necessary

[desert agate]

Did you ignore the 2nd half of my statement?

[junior trench]

he's been in a fight the whole damn time, and staying in the fight means he gets bombed by the planes already present even more, with the addition of the returning fleet carriers

[cyan oriole]

the damage was not that critical

he still has his battleships for the most part

[desert agate]

Username checks out

[narrow rover]

Chinese (KMT) postwar policy
"Let's try to make the US and USSR fight over the Kuriles"
"Meanwhile annex Okinawa"

...Bruh??

[autumn sorrel]

Atago was Kurita flag ship right before he have transferred flag to Yamato. Kurita was possibly under a lot of pressure until that point and while I don't think the "run" from the fight, he could have do that to preserve what he think was the last fighting strength of IJN

[narrow rover]

Non-aligned hard mode

[junior trench]

why the fuck are you saying that to me

[autumn sorrel]

Dunno

[narrow rover]

Everyone in this chat sucks

[cyan oriole]

and kurita still has available 4 battleships and several cruisers and destroyers

[autumn sorrel]

Well, you finally realize that?

[cyan oriole]

he was not forced to flee

[desert agate]

Except for me I have never sucked I am in fact the best member of this channel (independently reviewed)

[narrow rover]

Yes

[cyan oriole]

https://tenor.com/view/true-morgan-freeman-labubu-rocket-fireworks-gif-11229025673966291408

[narrow rover]

MilHis discords are pretty @ss half the time

[junior trench]

yeah, it's not like there's 300 aircraft from Taffy 3 and 2 attacking him still, with another ~150 on hand from Taffy 1

[narrow rover]

[junior trench]

and all the planes from the FTF coming back as well

[desert agate]

This channel fell off about 2 years ago

Used to be peak

[cyan oriole]

and fleeing will prevent the aircraft from attacking him

everyone knows you can outrun aircraft

[autumn sorrel]

Uh huh, that until you start raging about RAN having no carrier

[desert agate]

The regulars all fled to a side server

[cyan oriole]

especially carrier aircraft

[desert agate]

I can talk about the RAN all day if you like

[junior trench]

yeah you can

cus there's a funny thing called

time and distance

[narrow rover]

It's frigging amazing
Like we have more people in this discord than some cities and apparently there's like 10 history regulars

[autumn sorrel]

RAN super secret Battleship plan when?

[narrow rover]

Me gets command of the IJN

Immediately comes up with "museum ship Yamato" plan

[cyan oriole]

yep, that's why kurita was hit by more aircraft anyways

at least kurita didn't fall for sunk cost fallacy

[junior trench]

in which someone cannot understand that anything short of perfection can still be worthwhile

[desert agate]

Because no one actually gives a shit about history and most of the annoying people got bullied out of the channel

until recently that is

[narrow rover]

The fucking
Kurita turn

[cyan oriole]

what do you mean short of perfection? was complete and utter failure "short of perfection"?

[narrow rover]

Analyzed to death and beyond

[cyan oriole]

a disastrous loss with literally nothing to show

just a little short of perfection

sure

the destruction of the IJN as a fighting force

with NOTHING to show for it

[junior trench]

you're so caught up on the idea of "omg was still attacked by planes anyway" you can't seem to comprehend that staying means losing everything

[cyan oriole]

and running means losing even more

the philippines were lost

the war was lost

[narrow rover]

[cyan oriole]

at least if he stayed, he can cope that he fulfilled his mission

even though japan was lost from the start

[junior trench]

except he can't

because 7th Fleet is aware he's coming

[narrow rover]

Dude
Think what Iwabuchi Sanji caused when he lost Kirishima

[cyan oriole]

how hard is it to sink transport ships

[desert agate]

Do you truly believe that the Japanese were anything but delusional in thinking that the war could still be won?

[junior trench]

and can get between him and the objective before he arrives due to the delay imposed by the Taffies

[cyan oriole]

at this point, even the japanese warlords knew the best they could hope for is a slightly less penalizing settlement

[autumn sorrel]

Bruh, he is a soldier, he is not a gamer.

[desert agate]

Maybe Kurita believed the war was lost, but his seniors certainly didn't

[narrow rover]

Tbh I don't think they thought it could be won
More like huffing hopium

[junior trench]

which means his entire force can get pinned between 7th and 3rd and then he accomplishes nothing and loses the whole force

[cyan oriole]

language is used to convey concepts

[autumn sorrel]

Kurita first duty is to the Emperor, not to himself

Him staying in your words is for what? Personal honor?

[cyan oriole]

so instead, he takes the route that guarantees that he accomplishes nothing

and still has lost 40% of his force

and the IJN was destroyed

[narrow rover]

Hey ever wanted to roll across the Oder Neisse line in a mountain sized Russian egg for a change?

[cyan oriole]

with nothing to show

[autumn sorrel]

You can blame Kurita all you want but Kurita made what he thought at the time the best decision for Japan

[cyan oriole]

yes, you can't blame Kurita

but his decision was absolutely wrong

[autumn sorrel]

Again, what you are saying is hindsight

[junior trench]

have we seriously reached the point where you're arguing that Kurita is "shying away from a fight" after losing "40% of his force"?

[cyan oriole]

at least, if his goal was to provide the best chance at achieving the goals of the japanese warlords

[narrow rover]

10% is devastating losses btw

[desert agate]

I can't think of any other commander that would have stayed longer in Kuritas position

[remote monolith]

Most of the WWII stuff has been talked to death and there's a lot less notes about premodern history, much less premodern history about regions like Southeast Asia.

Like I would LOVE to talk about Old Mataram but we literally don't have a single written manuscript about them and only rock Candis with limited historical information and abundant religious information

[autumn sorrel]

Kurita don't even know how much IJN lost at that point

[cyan oriole]

I would say he made the right decision from a moral standpoint

[narrow rover]

People don't even talk about the fun shit

[autumn sorrel]

The fuck? Warlords?

The fuck are you going on about?

[cyan oriole]

he knows that a lot of the force (for example the carriers) is being sacrificed as part of the though

[narrow rover]

Like the independence movement at Okinawa that somehow had 4 countries variously involved or the Chinese dude that tried to make an independent state at Yuannan

[junior trench]

any WW2 discussion we get these days is stuff like this, where someone comes in to argue a PRATT until the remaining regulars just hit the block button

[cyan oriole]

japanese government were basically just large scale warlords

running headlong into a superior opponent is not exactly competent leadership

[autumn sorrel]

[narrow rover]

I mean they did decently when they were fighting actual warlords in China

[cyan oriole]

yes, because all the losses are completely in vain if he doesn't press forward

the plan is to stomach losses, fight, and hope to win

[autumn sorrel]

And losing the rest of IJN best ship?

[cyan oriole]

kurita did the first part, then didn't fight and ran way

[autumn sorrel]

Again, he did fight

[cyan oriole]

yes, it's losing those ships or guaranteed losing the Pilippines

which means losing the war

[cyan oriole]

he did 60% of the job

[junior trench]

speaking of which...

[cyan oriole]

oh yeah sure

someone disagrees with me? block

[autumn sorrel]

RI, you know what, I completely understand why you mad at me sometimes

[cyan oriole]

and you wonder why the channel is dead

why is the channeld ead when we block people we don't like

[narrow rover]

My plan for the IJN:

1. Hide Yamato somewhere the Americans won't look
2. When war ends offer it as reparation for China
3. Either buy it back from Taiwan or buy it back from China after Nixon thaw, depending on which side of the civil war it ends up on
4. Real Yamato in the Yamato museum or as I'd like to say "profit"

[cyan oriole]

it's not wrong to stand up for something

and have an argument

if you're wrong, you're wrong

then you learned something

if nobody is able to give a good argument and people try to bully you instead, then there was nobody worth talking to

discord is full of egotists who hate differing opinions anyways

we hate thinking about what everyone else is saying, we just stay set in our views and lash out

[junior trench]

your stance has amounted to "nuh uh", and now you have the gall to play the persecution complex card lmao

[narrow rover]

I have a plan for ragebait troll too

Change your username

[cyan oriole]

?

everything I don't like is nuh-uh

no more ragebait troll

sadge mega

[cyan oriole]

my stance was always pretty clear

Kurita running away is guaranteed loss for the IJN

the objective is to disrupt the landing operations and prevent the capture of the Philippines

Kurita did not do that, and when he ran away the Philippines were predictably taken back by the Americans

and then the war was lost

so if he was to follow the plan, he had to stay and fight

[junior trench]

your stance requires ignoring the actual sequence events and what Kurita was aware of at the time, and has remained entrenched as such. ergo, it's just not worth discussing it further with you.

[narrow rover]

And the 2nd plan for Ragebait Troll is shutting up and giving me reparations for making me read this

[cyan oriole]

does it matter what Kurita was aware of? running away means losing

he surely knew that

"the objective is to prevent the Philippines from being captured"
"ok I will not do that and run away"

should be clear what happens

[junior trench]

It is, in fact, remarkably important to consider what a commander knows of at the time. Shocking, I know.

[cyan oriole]

it is clear what happens

the Philippines are lost

if you had to choose between 100% chance of failure and 90% chance of 1% more disastruous failure and 10% chance of success, it is not hard to know what to do

if Kurita didn't know that losing here means loss for the operationa nd for Japan, then he was delusional and maybe should be criticized for that

[junior trench]

False dichotomy and a strawman of the operational picture around the Philippines at the time. I applaud you.

[cyan oriole]

I give the ragebait a 2/10

[narrow rover]

Still trying to figure out of Joe Stilwell's failings was due to his personal issues (like having an absolutely sour personality), his staff, or just him getting thrown into an impossible job

[cyan oriole]

"strawman" is overused

oops

[junior trench]

if you assume everyone uses such poor definitions of terms as yourself, then yes, I can see where that opinion would come from

[cyan oriole]

so why was Kurita's choice the correct one

was was choosing guaranteed failure the correct choice

[narrow rover]

Because I know for goddamn sure the Brits rated the KMT lower than even the Americans
And they didn't have a Stilwell to dump commie propaganda onto Roosevelt's desk

[cyan oriole]

Kurita should have done what he could

the planners believed that destroying some of the invasion fleet's transport shipping would buy a chance at least, or else the operation would not have been launched

so why would Kurita be right in thinking he knew better

[narrow rover]

Enough kurita™spam

[cyan oriole]

Kurita thought that the operation was not in fact critical, and that saving his ships was worth a total failure of the operation

[cyan oriole]

yeah true

[narrow rover]

Someone resurrect the guy already

[cyan oriole]

not like Japan ever had a chance

so it doesn't matter

[narrow rover]

It's one of those countries that can't really win that half century

Like no matter what it does I can't see a timeline where it escapes some sort of chaos either war with a foreign power or internal. Though it probably could have been a lot less bad for everyone.

[cyan oriole]

yeah, internal chaos could only ruin japan

what actually happened ruined china, japan, indonesia, the philippines, burma, etc

[narrow rover]

Fundamentally it's a newly modernized state trying to colonize some of the most populated regions in the world

It can go only one way (failure)

Same reason I don't rate plans like these very highly

[narrow rover]

https://youtu.be/KKgpIukWJdM?si=s9CPTgppHEEYX9Jl

🇫🇷

[eternal veldt]

Good lord, all this talk and Samar and nobody has actually mentioned one of the, imo, core factors in influencing Kurita to signal a retreat.

The admiral has survived a sinking of his flagship days prior by swimming because of how rapidly it capsized, subsequently withstood a hail of aircraft raids, and, critically

Did not have sleep over three days

Perhaps you would like to make a sound judgment after going through that experience?

[zealous vine]

Was there any documentation on these guns?

(specifically the 305/50, 356/50 and 410/52)

(something I noticed is the arbitrary /52, I presume it's rebored from the 460/45? the US' conversion of their 18" to 16" yielded a similar ratio)

omg it's Jaba praise be

I should contribute my own answers some time.. feels unfair dipping here just to ask for a long time

[brittle glacier]

I ask a lot of stupid questions in here. Don’t worry.

[spiral cedar]

I feel that it is appropriate for me to bring up this discussion from 47 months ago, where Kurita's decisions in the final hours of Samar and Oct. 25 are analyzed. He disengages from Taffy 3 and turns north because he's been erroneously misinformed by land based scouting that TF34 is north and moving to block San Bernardino Strait, and thus represents the most immediate existential threat to his scattered and dispersed force, as well as the force his fleet can best engage (being all surface warships) and hopefully deal a strategically meaningful blow to. He also recognizes that surprise is long gone, that the carriers fleeing him are too fast to be caught (since his fleet had misidentified them as fast 30+ knot fleet carriers instead of slow CVEs), and that most of the enemy transports had probably fled (correct; nearly 9 in 10 had already upped anchor and left the landing area during the day's fighting). With a seemingly heavily mangled carrier force fleeing faster than his BBs to the south, the enemy transports fleeing (thus invalidating that aspect of SHO-1), and a juicy enemy surface force positioned north on his line of retreat, it was prudent and sound to reorganize and turn north in the hopes of concluding the day's fighting with a proper battleline action, as both navies were seemingly offering.

As the evening turns to night, however, he realized that the intel had been wrong, and that he had no idea where TF34 was (). Kurita reassessed that after so long spent steaming at top speed with bad fuel, his fuel situation demanded a course of action. He recognized that without any idea of where the enemy now was, he'd be defeated by enemy airpower come daylight if he stayed in the AO. Furthermore, it was clear Nishimura had been defeated, ruining the southern prong of the operation. He judged the opportunity lost, though at least satisfied that the USN losses at Samar had been severe, and trusted land-based airpower to deal what damage it could as he continued north to get his ships to safety.

Kurita's actions on the 25th are incomprehensible and cowardly from the American perspective, but logical and reasoned from his own and within Japanese doctrine. He worked off incomplete and frequently erroneous intel that better explains his actions than suppositions about cowardice or incompetence. Was he a genius commander? Certainly not. But he was judging an ever-evolving situation on the fly and trying to figure out how best to employ his force to achieve Japan's aims, and exhibited aggression when he thought he had the largest surface action of the war about to fall into his lap.

[spiral cedar]

Unfortunately probably a question for Silver and Phoenix; they know the archives on these things better than me

[woeful heath]

Delfy,

Are you making the IJN Papership Tech tree line challenge?
😭

[zealous vine]

No this is entirely separate 😭

It's just my hobby to build hypothetical tech trees for fun

[zealous vine]

Ya know, I'm curious: what connections do y'all have?

If I'm not wrong, a member or 2 have conversed with Nathan himself. I wonder if y'all, Phoenix, Silver, or the others have met other interesting people like Tzoli, war vets, members of wargaming genre companies or whoever.

[spiral cedar]

I've emailed some big names (Tony from Navweaps, Jurens, Fischer, Okun) but I wouldn't say I'd count them as "connections" (though I did have a decent correspondence with Okun via email)

Oh and uh, what's his name, the Casablanca guy

O'Hara

(Kinda silly to call him the "Casablanca guy" but that is what I emailed him about)

Been a while though so I wouldn't count them as active connections nowadays

[zealous vine]

It's a bit grim to be reminded of names who've passed on,, lest they be forgotten

[spiral cedar]

It is...and that's why it's important to do things you'll be remembered fondly by others for

[woeful heath]

Close enough

do share them, I wanna see them
||Maybe some others in the Naval 1945 server||

[zealous vine]

Akan ada kritikan

Not in the N45 server, the devs will laugh at me

[narrow rover]

Peak IJN experience

Well at least he survived the war

[woeful heath]

as expected in the thunderdome

[spiral cedar]

For those who do want to go back 47 months to read the quoted passages, here's a more convenient starting point than the one I replied to earlier. It's an interesting read

[narrow rover]

I wonder if Yamato can float on lake Biwa

[peak mango]

Pretty sure she had plenty of reserve bouyancy.

[runic ermine]

Rip
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/canadian-war-museum-tim-cook-dies-9.6954386

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8ER4XWfgrs

[junior trench]

because the Germans didn't even consider the Panzer III/IV project until 1944

[narrow rover]

Kind of pointless when you can't double your turret face

[lilac pollen]

Because they didn’t expect the T-34

[narrow rover]

No one expects the Spanish inquisition T34

[narrow rover]

Yes that's a machine gun
...from a Kamikaze plane

I uhh, dunno how the hell you're supposed to end up with your gun stuck there

[brittle glacier]

That looks like a Browning?

[narrow rover]

Dunno much about guns
At least that's what it said in the description

I mean it could be one of these

[brittle glacier]

Hmmm…I won’t say no to that one…what the hell is that thing anyway?

[narrow rover]

The gun on the A6M

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0YnH6THap0

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBXy6h-QT4o

[peak mango]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Soviet_nuclear_false_alarm_incident

[brittle glacier]

A THIRTY-SIX INCH MORTAR!!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_David

[fringe wind]

I ain't no expert but I don't think David is "little".

[brittle glacier]

Even Gustav is smaller…

[brittle glacier]

Tiny Tim rockets weren’t tiny…

[fringe wind]

What's with people calling big things small?

[brittle glacier]

Irony?

Secret code names?

[fringe wind]

Like you can have a artillery gun the size of Africa and they can call it something like "Small Raul" or something like that.

[brittle glacier]

IDK but I wanna write out a ship mounting at least one of these…maybe two.

[brittle glacier]

There was Mallet’s Mortar…that was British though.

Oh yeah: they also used it to test AERIAL BOMBS!!!

Its standard shells weighed ONE AND A HALF TONS…and change.

[peak mango]

wide and short

[spring briar]

Not very heavy for the caliber

[shrewd pecan]

less than 10 KM range

for a 87 ton mortar

at this point just use a dive bomber

or a literal 16/14 inch railway gun

[remote monolith]

After Amangkurat II's death, Prince Puger discovered his brother's penis erect and emitting the "Light of Divine Power," which he immediately sucked out when no one was looking. From there, authority began to descend on Prince Puger, rather than the crown prince, Raden Mas Sutikno, also known as Amangkurat III, who was known for his bad temper.

[narrow rover]

...what?

[remote monolith]

Yeah so basically, this is a certain incident that supposedly happened during the Mataram Civil Wars.

[narrow rover]

Yea uhh, I'd suspect drugs use

[zealous vine]

[remote monolith]

It is actually an interesting take on the whole divine right of kings principle

And tied to the concept of virility as one of the symbols of greatness

[narrow cloak]

Question what happened if Yamato was fully dedicated Aircraft Carrier?

[brittle glacier]

You mean Shinano?

[narrow cloak]

I mean yeah but instead of Support Carrier she was fully attack carrier

[brittle glacier]

I thought she was a full on fleet carrier?

Ah. She was too completely to be a fleet carrier when they started conversion after Midway.

She woulda been a big’un. Few dozen feet longer and more than twice the displacement of a Yorktown-class carrier same length, twice the tonnage of an Essex…

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/thef35/status/1983897253971407354

F-35 Lightning II (@thef35)

Chocolate F-35s? Yes, please! 🍫✈️
︀︀
︀︀A big thank you to @VyvermanWim of The Chocolate Atelier for creating these tasty F-35 gifts for the Belgium F-35 First Aircraft Arrival event.

**💬 10 🔁 117 ❤️ 932 👁️ 37.8K **

FxTwitter · Oct 30, 2025, 2:02 PM

[narrow rover]

https://youtu.be/oKvQxPrbOgs?si

"Viva la France?"

"YES"

[junior trench]

sanitize your links

[remote monolith]

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-025-09801-6

https://www.science.org/content/article/mini-tyrannosaur-lived-alongside-t-rex-extraordinary-fossil-confirms
https://www.livescience.com/animals/dinosaurs/i-was-wrong-dinosaur-scientists-agree-that-small-tyrannosaur-nanotyrannus-was-real-pivotal-new-study-finds
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nanotyrannus-isnt-a-juvenile-t-rex-its-a-separate-dinosaur/
https://www.npr.org/2025/10/30/nx-s1-5589172/tyrannosaurus-rex-dueling-dinosaurs-fossil-new-species

So

Basically bombshell of the decade

TIL:
-Nanotyrannus is, after all, a valid species
-There's now two species of Nanotyrannus recognized, lethaeus and lancesis
-Several formerly skeptical Paleontologists are now convinced that Nanotyrannus is in fact valid
-The famous Dueling Dinosaur fossil is very likely to actually represent an Adult Nanotyrannus hunting a Triceratops
-Nanotyrannus isn't even a Tyrannosaurid, but a possible Dryptosaurid coming over from Appalachia, the eastern mini-continent

[junior trench]

oh mai gotto

new therapoddo

[remote monolith]

Not really new so much as revived from the invalid zone

Like Nanotyrannus had been the site of a gigantic back and forth war between Paleontologists

This paper apparently fully converted all the skeptics who's been arguing against Nanotyrannus for nearly 30 years now

The paper also solves the age old riddle of why there's no medium predator between Tyrannosaurus and smallish foot long Dromaeosaurids in North America in Maastrichtian Cretaceous: turns out there is one, we just didn't found good evidence of it till now

[spring briar]

Aint no way france it trying out concepts barely 2 decades since the airplane has been invented?
Say it aint so

[narrow rover]

Wonder if biplane designs still have a use

Might make a return when electric plane designs become more viable

Because lmao what thrust

[junior trench]

points at An-2

[remote monolith]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5EB6zcrCOU

Direct video from the paper's author about the whole Nanotyrannus thing

[junior trench]

THE ONE PIECE NANOTYRANNUS IS REAL

[maiden citrus]

super awesome indeed, but when does Nanosaur 2 come out in this timeline

[remote monolith]

Well there N. lethaeus so, that counts?

[maiden citrus]

they really did think of everything

[remote monolith]

Apparently the one trying to eat Triceratops is the original Nano, and a skull initially thought a Tyrannosaurus is actually N. lethaeus

[maiden citrus]

before you know it we'll have definite proof spinosaurus wasn't a medusozoa

[remote monolith]

God don't jinx it, 2025 is already earth-shattering Paleontology wise in multiple ways

Nanotyrannus, Ichtyosaurs suddenly robbed the biggest marine macropredator title from Megalodom

[maiden citrus]

triassic ichtyosaurs be chungus

[little palm]

They have a use in Short take-off environments
Unfortunately, helicopters and VTOL are better and more versatile in said environment

[mental tapir]

VTOL Nanotyrannus

[remote monolith]

The deadliest carnivore this side of North America

[maiden citrus]

a now historically accurate image

[remote monolith]

Pictured: when your newly released, comprehensively researched book immediately becomes useless and outdated because another research utterly invalidated decades of research

[autumn sorrel]

Oh nice. Baby T-Rex is a thing now

[remote monolith]

yeah and with it it destroyed 40+ years of research about any non-adult Tyrannosaurus

because as it turned out all those researches assumed Nanotyrannus is just a juvenile rex instead of a completely different animal and used it as a reference point

[autumn sorrel]

So now we are starting from scratch to figure out which is actual Baby T-Rex and NanoT?

[remote monolith]

more or less, we're back to determining which fossil is a juvenile rex and which one's just a completely normal adult Nano

[autumn sorrel]

Man, it going to be so much fun

[narrow rover]

I would say EVtols should probably invest in them lol

Since electric motors are low output

[woeful heath]

IIRC, there were plans before they just decided to convert her to a support aircraft carrier.

Some Shinano conversion plans are silly

[zealous vine]

What are those guns

[woeful heath]

it was revealed by Verdant btw

[brittle glacier]

Jesus.

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/OnDisasters/status/1984364911917502886
https://fxtwitter.com/OnDisasters/status/1984364915147083840

Air Safety #OTD by Francisco Cunha (@OnDisasters)

#OTD in 1979: Western Airlines Flight 2605, a DC-10, crashes in Mexico City (Mexico). 72 of 88 aboard, 1 on the ground die. Under fog, Jet landed on a closed runway, hit vehicles and veered into a building. Investigation stated crew did not follow several approach procedures.

**💬 1 🔁 1 👁️ 72 **

FxTwitter · Oct 31, 2025, 9:00 PM

Air Safety #OTD by Francisco Cunha (@OnDisasters)

#Thread CVR recording with subtitles - WARNING: content may disturb viewers

**💬 1 👁️ 15 **

▶ Play video

FxTwitter · Oct 31, 2025, 9:00 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jyj4ZciADM

[peak mango]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pye_Wacket ... heh TIL.

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1984458220610425227
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1984461504335528109

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

Insignia of Des Moines-class heavy cruiser USS Salem (CA-139)
︀︀#Halloween

**🔁 4 ❤️ 23 👁️ 849 **

FxTwitter · Nov 1, 2025, 3:11 AM

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

VA-175 Devil's Diplomats. VA-175 flew TBM Avengers and AD Skyraiders.
︀︀#Halloween

**🔁 1 ❤️ 3 👁️ 52 **

FxTwitter · Nov 1, 2025, 3:24 AM

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1984472971574902838

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

VMA-241 Sons of Satan. The squadron suffered 75% losses during the Battle of Midway.

**💬 1 🔁 10 ❤️ 40 👁️ 1.7K **

FxTwitter · Nov 1, 2025, 4:10 AM

[wintry moat]

That is fucking rough to hear

[narrow rover]

https://fxtwitter.com/nullpointered/status/1984359372999582200?t=

null (@nullpointered)

How do you defeat this? I mean seriously??

**💬 126 🔁 2 ❤️ 165 👁️ 21.1K **

FxTwitter · Oct 31, 2025, 8:38 PM

Straight up? You simply can't

[peak mango]

With the tech of the time?

[narrow rover]

I mean yea with modern tech it's just unfair to the Maginot line

Like what can they do to an F-18

[peak mango]

it's pretty AA light. So kill turrets with dive bombers, locally exploit?

[narrow rover]

Nah the Maginot line had decent enough AA, at least dealing with late 1930s stuff

[remote monolith]

Its pretty hard to accurately hit something as small as those turrets with dive bombers as it is

[narrow rover]

You'd need MASSIVE strikes to maybe blow a section out of service and they'd be back in action by the time your troops can advance

[remote monolith]

Plus even assuming they're taken out storming the ouvrage would be a massive pain if you don't want constant strikes in the back from it

[peak mango]

I mean the obv answer was 'go around' so more trouble than it's worth to assault. 'Find the weakest part (of the line), spread out infantry to suppress AA, divebomb the turrets, bring up arty to continue fire, send in assault teams to breach...

[narrow rover]

That's kind of what they did iirc

[peak mango]

I don't remember if the germans actually assaulted any segments of the line.

[narrow rover]

Hundreds of thousands of Germans had to constantly troll the Maginot line while Gudarian went through the Ardennes so as to keep the troops there guessing

[peak mango]

go around is definitely what they did.

but 'bring up strikes from the (french) rear' has the same problems - arty/aircraft can only hit surface hard points.

[remote monolith]

Go around is harder to do if the Ouvrages are actually equipped and supplied with enough men to harass supply lines

Problem was the French command was basically absolutely paralyzed after Sedan and couldn't do a lot of meaningful maneuvers

[narrow rover]

Part of me wonders if German tendencies to do absolutely suicidal gambles at times was due to their ideology

Like iirc Germany believed (at least the higher ups) civilization would simply crumble if they didn't win

[peak mango]

coming out of a severe recession does that. 'we're doing the right thing that makes things better'

[remote monolith]

Nah aggressive commanders aren't really new, it's basically just a development of the cult of the offensive married with new technological advancement

[narrow rover]

Probably that and also the entire thing with the "pure German race"

[peak mango]

I mean yeah. Nazis are the bad guys.

[remote monolith]

Like, as a counterpoint Germany also has some pretty talented defensive generals like Gotthard Heinrici or Kesselring

But yknow, since defending generals tend to not get rep they're less visible than Rommel or Hoth

[peak mango]

The Q was 'how do you peen the maginot line'.

[narrow rover]

Hard to NOT go to war with an ideology like... this

[remote monolith]

Oh yeah it's pretty bonkers alright

[narrow rover]

Franz Halder

[peak mango]

Not gonna talk about their ideology. Obv the bad guys.

[remote monolith]

Aka Mr. I bungled logistics in the eastern front horrifically

[peak mango]

But lengthy defensive lines have their flaws - mainly, cost. Not all of it can be built to the same standard. Find the weakest bit. Either a cost cut, or a crew rotation timing. Bring local suppression, peen. Defenses worth both ways, protects an attacker that's inside as well as a defender from attack.

Some quick internet says ... “The Maginot Line was widely believed to be impregnable, and for all I know there may still be those who think that the fortifications could have resisted any attack. It may be of interest to point out that the Maginot defences were breached in a few hours by a normal infantry attack, and without any tank support whatsoever. The German infantry advanced under the cover of heavy air and artillery bombardment in which lavish use was made of smoke shell. They soon found that many of the French strongpoints were not proof against shells or bombs, and moreover, a large number of positions had not been sited for all-around defence and were easy to attack from the blind side with grenades and flamethrowers. The Maginot Line lacked depth, and taken as a whole the position was far inferior to many defence systems developed later in the war. In modern war it is in any case unsound to rely on static defence, but as far as the Maginot Line was concerned the fortifications had only a moderate local value.”

(von mellenthin, german source, fwiw)

[narrow rover]

Has a general named France Holder
Does not use him to hold France
Was Hitler stupid

[peak mango]

Found from https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/maginot-line-f-35-world-war-ii-never-stood-chance-95231

[narrow rover]

F-35
Uhh just about a million times heavier and unable to move around

[peak mango]

utterly stupid title

[remote monolith]

Imma be real, I don't trust von Mellenthin's judgement the same way I don't trust anything coming out of Lost Verloren

[peak mango]

Ugh I hate the internet but it's likely a quote from one of his books.

[peak mango]

Fair but it I'm not basing my (initial) eval off of him, just what I'd do in a tac situation.

[remote monolith]

Assuming you're cribbing from Panzer Battles it's uh, super problematic and has been condemned a couple of times

According to Mellenthin, "Russian soldier" is a "primitive being", characterised by "mental sluggishness" and lacking a "religious or moral balance". He describes them as "primitive" "Asiatics".

Mellenthin blames Wehrmacht's defeat solely on the Soviet advantages in men and materiel, describing the Red Army as a "ruthless enemy, possessed of immense and seemingly inexhaustible resources". As a result, according to Mellenthin, the "endless waves of men and tanks" eventually "submerged" the supposedly superior Wehrmacht.

[peak mango]

Yeah, sure. Not a good dude and all that.

But I think it's verifiable whether he penetrated the maginot line or not.

[remote monolith]

The only one I can found about that is a couple attack that's repelled by the Line ans a single one made by the 7th Army that did apparently breach it, but I can't find a good record about it except that they did capturer Colmar and Strasbourg, after the entire line got surrounded

And this part doesn't even have citations in Wikipedia so idk what to make of it

Either way considering Panzer Battles is basically a memoir I wouldn't trust anything written in it

German generals tend to lie about even small details like whether they shouted at Hitler or not in a particular meeting or how their troops actually moved

[shrewd pecan]

National interest slop

https://tenor.com/view/nermal-garfield-garfield-meme-nermal-dead-john-gif-18241118886265094705

[peak mango]

Yeah it's a pretty horrible source but had a quote.

[remote monolith]

Among other things, Mellenthin also basically lied his ass about the Battle of Arracourt saying the Germans were winning

And despite that, he couldn't hide the fact that German panzers got massively beaten down in the end and caught a lot of irreplaceable losses

[peak mango]

Anyway, the practical question is 'how do you penetrate linear fortress' and the real answer is find the weakest portion, suppress using forces the fortress can't effectively hit (aka infantry), create a local overmatch, exploit.

[remote monolith]

Well, yeah, that's warfare 101

Even the Xiongnu figured that one out

[peak mango]

Yup. That said, much of that diagram shown isn't exactly invulnerable. Fixed defenses have their weaknesses and the advantage is definitely on the attacker's side.

[remote monolith]

It's not invulnerable, I never said it was but it was perfect for its purpose, delaying German attacks for long enough for mobilization to take place and making it too costly for a direct attack of the frontiers

From the beginning I said taking the Ouvrage would be a pain that takes resources to do, and it would potentially open the Germans to fresh attacks from the French afterwards

[peak mango]

Yup. That was more of a reply to the person who originally posted it.

[peak mango]

But well, how do you feel about the petit ouvrages?

[subtle prawn]

A disturbing content warning was given by the OP for a reason

[remote monolith]

Pretty standard speed bumps imo

They're obviously never going to hold anything for long, just long enough to warn people

[spring briar]

No

[desert agate]

https://x.com/alexluck9/status/1984561671214678281?s=12

Alex Luck (@AlexLuck9)

"Vermont has thirteen people from the Royal Australian Navy operating as part of the crew after training in the United States, according to the release."

If we keep up methodical implementation of Pillar 1, we can make the critics blush. Fingers crossed.
https://t.co/5MKjKpEvMq

X · Nov 1, 2025, 10:02 AM

AUKUS Pillar 1 is still alive and well in spite of what the scaremongers claim

Every time a Frenchman claims that AUKUS is dead another USN nuke subs comes into port

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1984703371291312386

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

A naval engineer trying to develop methods to stabilize ship equipment accidentally created a classic toy when he knocked over a steel spring and watched it walk down a stack of books. He started a company that introduced the walking spring as "Slinky" in November, 1945.

**🔁 2 ❤️ 20 👁️ 609 **

▶ Play video

FxTwitter · Nov 1, 2025, 7:25 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNX2X_m2J4E

[zealous vine]

Did journalists actively hop on live ship sorties for documentation

[narrow rover]

https://gcaptain.com/neolines-sail-powered-cargo-ship-completes-first-commercial-loading/

I like the design

[desert agate]

RAN Skyhawk on approach to HMAS Melbourne

[timber linden]

https://tenor.com/view/ship-ocean-sailed-boat-shiphassailed-gif-6074692

Everything is a circle

[peak mango]

Tbh you can do expensive break bulk with sails (lots of little experiments there) but cost/tonne really depends on lowering crew counts (and hours worked loading/unloading) which really optimizes things towards bigger (amortizes fixed costs among more mass being shipped) and containerized (standardized and easier to handle), which really doesn't help the case for any trad sailing cargo. Plus, disadvantages of needing more air draft, etc.

Don't get me wrong - slower sailing has clawed back a lot of the fuel burn, and there's cases for things like autokitesail rigs and highly automated retractable wingsails for reducing consumption.

Ex:

I believe her masts can fold down too for going under bridges.

Can't find a picture of them lowered but here's the type of sail - https://www.oceanwings.com/product/ow-lf-lowerable-fixed-wingsail

[narrow rover]

Yea the loading/unloading, and increased crew count that comes with sails REALLY harms these ideas

Ultimately you'd need for fossil fuels in maritime industries to be phased out to a point where those expenses will be lesser than the costs of continuing to use primarily fuel burning ships

Neoliner Origin is a car carrier, so it by nature has no need to stack stuff on the decks

Hence the loading/unloading procedure is not affected by the masts

[runic ermine]

What was life like for Michiganders who lived under occupation during the War of 1812

[peak mango]

Or at least a decent autosail that doesn't increase air draft or require more (specialized) crew. See the oceanwings designs above, or https://wisamo.michelin.com/ based on a telescoping boom.

[narrow rover]

Yea you also have to go under bridges and stuff unfortunately

[peak mango]

Yup. Other designs would be retractible/lowerable fletner rotors.

[narrow rover]

One concern I have is like... how much do these sails reduce fuel consumption anyway? Half of these look like they'd struggle to move the ship at 2 knots

Compared to true sailing ships...

[peak mango]

Claimed 15% per vplp (ship designer) https://www.vplp.fr/en/maritime/canopee/

https://www.oceanwings.com/news/two-years-four-oceanwings-one-clear-result-wind-propulsion-delivers

"Canopée was also clocked at 13,7 knots under sail power alone which shows the clear potential of the OceanWings technology to the propulsion of commercial vessels."

[narrow rover]

You'd probably need at least "it can sail across the Atlantic without firing up the engines" level + loading/unloading and at least some way to deal with air draft for wide scale utilization

[peak mango]

It's the lowerable system. There's a motor hinge at the bottom of each mast.

Mind you .. Canopee is transporting empty rocket stages, so mostly air...

[narrow rover]

There's also the dyna rig, but I doubt this can be made to be lowered

[peak mango]

It can't.

I've been on the Maltese Falcon. She's ... sweer. Tablet control, 2 person deck crew...

Sails are stored in the masts and unfold out per spar.

[narrow rover]

Yea she pioneered the computer controlled rigging idea

Nice boat

[peak mango]

engineers were super proud of the low hours on her mains.

Oh there's also some kitesail concepts. Likely can't do much to the fuel burn, but every couple % helps I guess.

[narrow rover]

There's also like
Old Dutch barges that can have its masts lowered to traverse under bridges

[peak mango]

Yeah. Sounds like work to lower the mast, though.

Lots of sailboats can but it's a pain in the arse.

[narrow rover]

Now... this can be only done with a single mast...
But....
I'd pay to see a 100+ meter tall mast on a oil tanker