history

[brittle glacier]

So is the Abrams.

Do you even know how old the sidewinder is?

[desert agate]

Because it is a story
A one off story that happened 40 odd years ago in a completely different combat environment

[brittle glacier]

Fair.

[desert agate]

It's irrelevant to the discussion

The Rafale is a very good, and very capable naval fighter

[brittle glacier]

I mostly use it as a joke.

[autumn sorrel]

Did you know that the latest AIM-9X were spoofed by old MiG-23 flares?

[desert agate]

The requirements of a naval fighter and a land based aerial superiority fighter are completely different

I don't think that's too hard to get

[brittle glacier]

Which is good for people with carriers that don’t want to buy or can’t afford an F-35.

[desert agate]

But I can dumb it down even more by going into maintenance and availability rates

[desert agate]

The French can certainly afford the F-35, but they sure as shit don't want it

Because why would they want a plane that takes away from their sole strategic imperitive

[brittle glacier]

A flare is a flare is a flare, using only passive IR tracking will do that. THATS why it’s ideally paired with radar tracking.

[autumn sorrel]

Yes and why do you think they are trying so hard to replace it? Just bc US stuck with Abrams doesn't mean they want to keep using it. It just there so many of it and they are not in a hurry to find a new design yet so they choose the cheaper option.

[brittle glacier]

And in return they lose out on capability.

[desert agate]

No they really don't

[brittle glacier]

Replace and upgrade are two different things.

[desert agate]

Because the capability they want can't be provided by F-35

[brittle glacier]

What capability do they want?

[desert agate]

First and foremost, they want strategic independence from any foreign power

That is the primary capability goal of all French military acquisition programs

[brittle glacier]

Like, an M1A2 and an M1 are two completely different beasts.

[autumn sorrel]

My dude, X model were supposed to have increase performance against IRCM, and it got spoofed by old ass flare dispenser

[desert agate]

Secondarily from a naval fighter, the French do not want a relatively slow single-engine light fighter

The French need a fast twin engine fighter with a high payload

[brittle glacier]

Do you have the full story?

[desert agate]

Single engine fighters are actually pretty bad at sea

[spring briar]

Least redundant sentence in history

[desert agate]

The USN really wasn't fond of buying F-35C

[autumn sorrel]

Just search Syrian Su-22 shoot down by US navy fighter. It take them to use an AARAM just to shoot down the Fitter

[desert agate]

And they've been quite slow with the rollout because it still doesn't have anti-ship missile integration

But they need a light fighter for fleet air defence

And F-35 is what they're stuck with regardless of whether or not it's what they really wanted

[brittle glacier]

?

[autumn sorrel]

Just saying, making an arsenal ship and stuffed it with nothing but SM-6

Who need light fighter when you can sling SM-6 into some poor J-15

[brittle glacier]

THATS what happens when you try a joint anything program. Someone’s gonna get pissy, save for the marines, they’re just happy to have new shit.

[desert agate]

Keeping in mind that Super Hornet doesn't have an operational replacement yet, F/A-XX is languishing somewhat, as the primary USN strike fighter of the 21st century

[brittle glacier]

Terrible idea: Carrier capable B-21 Raider.

[desert agate]

People seem to have this idea that F-35 is an everything replacer, it isn't
It's an F-16 and F/A-18a/b/c replacer

[brittle glacier]

It’s primarily a strike fighter.

[desert agate]

Rafale is more comparable to an F/A-18F in capability, which means replacing with a light fighter or F/A-18a/b/c equivalent is a downgrade for French capability

[desert agate]

No it isn't

It's a multirole fighter

But it's more of a light fighter

It's designed for the jack of all trades roles that the F-16 has been doing for the last half century

[brittle glacier]

“Light fighter”
Minmaxed for stealth and joint target acquisition.

[desert agate]

That means anything from air superiority to stealth strike

[brittle glacier]

The F-35 is a flying sensor THATS really fuckin sneaky.

[desert agate]

Yes but that doesn't make it any less of a light fighter

[brittle glacier]

That’s its primary role.

It just so happens to have munitions on board.

[desert agate]

The F-35 is an amazing capability with amazing weapons and is truly a game changer

[brittle glacier]

It can engage a target with SAMs or even HIMARS.

[desert agate]

But it's a light fighter

I'm not trying to undersell the F-35

I really like the platform and its idea but it isn't what everyone thinks it is

[brittle glacier]

They need an F-35XL

Call it the F-38

[desert agate]

Bro

[brittle glacier]

More everything.

[desert agate]

Have you just not heard of F-47

[brittle glacier]

Like so

[desert agate]

Please stop

[brittle glacier]

I’ve heard of it, dont really expect anything.

[brittle glacier]

What?

[desert agate]

Well, you should, it's entering production next year

Wait no it isn't my bad

[brittle glacier]

I thought they deep sixed it?

[desert agate]

It's entering production by end of decade

[brittle glacier]

Think about it: More engine, More munition, more speed, more better.

[desert agate]

It's been said that the first production model is actually already in production

But it's probably 4 years away from completion

[brittle glacier]

No surprise.

[desert agate]

None at all, it's the most advanced plane ever built

[brittle glacier]

How long has the B-21 been floating around by now?(as comparison)

[desert agate]

It's going to take a while

[brittle glacier]

Dont we have a prototype?

[desert agate]

There are multiple prototypes that have been flying for at least half a decade

[brittle glacier]

Also: Lol at China’s three legged knockoff.

[desert agate]

What are you talking about man

[spring briar]

J-36 isn’t a knockoff of anything

[desert agate]

I mean
The Chinese did steal the F-35 plans so there's probably a lot of stolen tech in there

[brittle glacier]

China has their own “6th gen” they like to claim is the first ever, that’s basically just an F-47 with three engines because with two they’d either not have the power or the reliability they want.

[desert agate]

But just calling every Chinese plane a knockoff is the sort of underestimation of your enemy that led to December 7 1941

[brittle glacier]

That was more Kimmel not setting out air patrols.

And a few other issues.

[desert agate]

The 3 engine design points to some well known issues with Chinese aviation engine production (turns out it's really hard to make these things) but it's not a knockoff

[brittle glacier]

Mostly that Kimmel thought the Japanese couldn’t attack that far away.

[brittle glacier]

I know. I just really don’t like the CCP, it’s genetic.

[desert agate]

Just because most stealth aircraft look the same these days doesn't mean they're all knock-off of each other

It just means that all countries building stealth aircraft recognise the fundamental laws of aerodynamics

[brittle glacier]

Not just aerodynamics, but I agree.

[desert agate]

Wow, so you could say that he underestimated his opponent and particularly their technology?

Almost as if that was my point

[brittle glacier]

No, he underestimated their resolve and was not very defensively oriented.

[desert agate]

Leading into December 1941, most countries believed that Japanese planes were inferior to Allied ones, and the planes they did have were simple reproductions of Allied aircraft

[brittle glacier]

Didn’t know about that second one.

But the first I am aware of.

[desert agate]

This was a widespread idea of Japanese racial and intellectual inferiority that was rapidly thrown aside by the swiftness of the Japanese advance

[brittle glacier]

However, the higher ups would have had Intel from the Flying Tigers.

[desert agate]

Why do we make the same mistake for the Chinese

[brittle glacier]

I don’t, I just like insulting them.

Well the CCP

[desert agate]

Well, they didn't, because they had no idea how to fight a Zero, almost as if the Zero didn't really fight in China or something

[brittle glacier]

Fair.

[desert agate]

And that the Flying Tigers were politically disavowed until the Pacific war actually began

[brittle glacier]

Doesnt mean their Intel was ignored.

[desert agate]

it very much was

Everyone ignored the intel

[brittle glacier]

Oh right, most of the brass were politicians instead of leaders.

[desert agate]

London, Melbourne, Batavia and Washington were all just as guilty as each other of believing their own propaganda about the Japanese, and their supposed inferiority

That propaganda was blown away in a firestorm that gripped the Pacific for 4 years

[brittle glacier]

Indeed.

[desert agate]

Military and civilian leadership were just as guilty as each other

[brittle glacier]

Though when you think about it, technically speaking Japanese equipment was vastly limited by their own industrial shortcomings. Zeroes were way too light because they couldn’t build a powerful enough/light enough engine, just as an example.

[brittle glacier]

The only prop I will give FDR is that he did recognize their rising threat in China and did more or less green light the Flying Tigers…at least I think it was FDR.

[desert agate]

The Zero was still a highly potent fighter for the first few years of the war, as thousands of Allied airmen learned after being shot down by them

[brittle glacier]

Indeed.

Get Weave’d bozo.

You can tell just how fucked a country was in WW2 based on the armament of their fighters/interceptors. the more numerous and bigger your guns the more fucked you were. Allies mostly had .30s and .50s with some 20s thrown in. While the Germans and Japanese bolter on as many big ass cannons as they could.
But how does this comparison work? Simple, the bigger the gun you bring the bigger the target you expect, and when you expect a metric skullfucking of strategic bombers? You’re probably fucked.

[desert agate]

That's...

Not how that worked

The only Allied force that was obsessed with the .50 was the USAAF, much to their pilots dismay, as they watched their USN counterparts, and even their allied colleagues blow enemy fighters away with their 20mm Hispano's

[brittle glacier]

It’s mostly a shitpost, but it kinda makes sense if you think about it. Neither Japan nor Germany could afford to crank out strategic bombers on the same level as us since they were too busy trying to crank out interceptors to shoot down ours.

[desert agate]

I seriously challenge you to find a British or Soviet fighter armed primarily with .303s or .50cals after 1941

[autumn sorrel]

[narrow rover]

I think America just didn't think Japan would go to war
The idea was that, through economic sanctions Japan would be forced to bleed, the failing economy would force the army out of power, at which point the US could negotiate with civilian leadership

[desert agate]

Ooooor, think about this, they didn't have a doctrinal requirement for one

[narrow rover]

Pearl Harbor is the 1940s equivalent of... Idk, Iran nuking Washington

[autumn sorrel]

They didn't build Strategic bomber bc it isn't in their doctrine and any talk about build one later was stupid wunder waffe talk

[desert agate]

But doctrine is too boring so shit jokes will have to do

[brittle glacier]

Not really? Hitler was obsessed with the idea of the Amerika Bomber project.

[desert agate]

Well, they did

[autumn sorrel]

And who wrote the doctrine for the Luftwaffe?

[desert agate]

Amerika Bomber was kreigslop wunderwaffel Nazi drivel

[brittle glacier]

One of Hitler’s toadies.

[brittle glacier]

Doesnt mean they didn’t want it.

[narrow rover]

Yea, bit of a miscalculation on the US's part but ah well
Not even the Japanese truly understood how fucked their political situation was

[desert agate]

That isn't relevant to how Luftwaffe or IJN/IJA doctrine was developed over the 1920s and 30s

[autumn sorrel]

Stop using meme as fact

[desert agate]

Just because some idiotic nazi had a stupid nazi idea doesn't mean that it was doctrinally relevant

[brittle glacier]

When the guy writing your doctrine is a nazi, it tends to get stupid.

[desert agate]

Hitler wasn't the one writing doctrine

Nor was Goering

It was mostly career air force officers and theorists

[narrow rover]

We might have seen more serious attempts to throw something at NYC if it wasn't for Wehrner Mölders dying in a plane crash

[desert agate]

They certainly had their own fare share of stupid nazi ideas

[autumn sorrel]

Do you even understand what the "Nazi" mean?

[desert agate]

but at least those stupid nazi ideas had a doctrinal relevance

[autumn sorrel]

I can't believe that I have to defend Nazi German but you are reducing them to cartoon caricature

[brittle glacier]

Members of the Nationalist Socialist German Workers party circa 1930s-40s?

[autumn sorrel]

Cartoonish villain don't launch one of the most destructive war in Human history

[desert agate]

I mean

[brittle glacier]

Sir, they thought they could get into a naval pissing match with two of the biggest navies in the world.

[autumn sorrel]

Spon, Hitler mental problem was the thing of the later half of the war.

[remote monolith]

In complete fairness, they actually are cartoon villains, it's just happens cartoon villains actually are terrifying in real life

[desert agate]

The actual reasons behind the Nazis starting WW2 was because Nazis are terrible at managing economies, and the only way to keep the economy afloat was invading and pillaging other countries

[autumn sorrel]

I would argue that the Soviet is even more cartoonish villain

[narrow rover]

Eh, Germany was kinda scary
Let's not forget they managed to kill over 10% of Eastern Europe's entire population

[brittle glacier]

Nah, cartoon villains are terrifying but ultimately harmless.

[spring briar]

Villain olympics

[remote monolith]

People like Adolf Eichmann were already notorious for their brutality and acceptance for cruelty before 1943

[autumn sorrel]

I don't think he know what MEKO bill is

[remote monolith]

Abd yeah let's not get into warcrime Olympics

[brittle glacier]

Yes

[desert agate]

HOI4slop

Paradoxslop

[autumn sorrel]

Ironically, yes.

[narrow rover]

You know, it was somewhat possible for Japan and Germany to have a go at each other over China

Real villain wars

[brittle glacier]

I shudder to imagine the collateral of such a fight.

[remote monolith]

I mean, if you wanna argue that, fire lord Sozin was cartoon villain, and he conducted a very realistic genocidal and imperialistic campaign acrosd the world

[desert agate]

The number of braincells in this conversation has somehow decreased as the number of people involved in it has increased

[remote monolith]

In fact Sozin was directly inspired by Imperial Japan

[brittle glacier]

Sorry, im mostly thinking Skeletor.

[desert agate]

It's mostly my braincells committing mass suicide with every 2nd message I read

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, we could always go back to posting warship specs

[brittle glacier]

https://tenor.com/view/lmfao-lmao-laughing-laughing-hysterically-laughing-and-crying-gif-17366703318476009053

[remote monolith]

Skeletor was a genocidal maniac whose base instinct to anything was attempting murder to even children

[desert agate]

I hate pop history slop I hate pop history slop I hate pop history slop

[brittle glacier]

ahem. “CURSE YOU HE MAN!!!”

[autumn sorrel]

It could be worse, it could be operation Downfall but USSR actually succeed in landing on Japan

[desert agate]

I'm done goodbye

[remote monolith]

That'll only leads to complete disaster on the Soviets part

[brittle glacier]

Operation Unthinkable is much preferable. 😛

[brittle glacier]

Yes, this is a joke. Probably.

[remote monolith]

Anyway, back to hit's point, the Lufwaffe's operational doctrine was very solid yes, and was better than their main opponent, the French Air Force, they had solid commanders like Wolfram von Richthofen and was able to tussle with the RAF for a good while, which was no snall feat

Degradation in the Luftwaffe's abilities would only startes to set in in late 42 after significant casualties in all theatres, and even then industrially they were still capable of churning out a good amount of planes before strategic bombinh started to take their toll (some 50% or so of German war economy were eventually used to prop up the single engine plane production)

[brittle glacier]

I don’t even know what the French Air Force looked like when the war started. I wanna say really old and outdated but Im not sure enough to make a solid statement.

[brittle glacier]

Then we started blowing up their bearings factories.

[remote monolith]

It was hobbled by many factors including that yeah

Postwar France was not a good place, lots of manpower shortages, money difficulties, and a massively wrecked industry from 4 years of occupation

[desert agate]

No it wasn't

[brittle glacier]

I mean, it ended up killing their highest scoring ace, sooo…

[desert agate]

If you don't know don't make a comment

The French had a lot of modern fighters

[remote monolith]

Well, more than that, although the strategic bombing campaign ended up not as successful as hoped, it had other effects like siphoning air defenses from the front and forcing constant reorganization of factories. Once in a while it'll do something fatal, like completely halting Alkett's productions of the Sturmgeschutz

[brittle glacier]

Im not, that’s just me making a roundabout question because I’m both autistic and prideful.

[desert agate]

It's just that those modern fighters weren't as good as the bf.109

And the few that they had which were better than the bf.109, simply weren't in the field in enough numbers to make a difference

[brittle glacier]

Make it good, make it a lot.

[desert agate]

Wholly unhelped by the French air force being supported by an obsolete doctrine

Overall French aircraft production was somewhat hampered by the insanely strong French unions

Which actively went on strike to prevent the French industrial complex from developing production lines, and instead forced each plane to be made by hand until the late 1930s when the government and industry were able to talk some sense into them

[brittle glacier]

I would’ve figured it was the same factors that crippled their tank doctrine…politicians being too scared to allow a professional military with any substance.

[brittle glacier]

Holy fucking shit.

[remote monolith]

Told you, interwar France was not a good place

[brittle glacier]

THAT is ridiculous.

I thought the recent longshoremen Union strike was bad.

[remote monolith]

Politics were actively revolving by the year and violence from both left and right were not uncommon

[brittle glacier]

Oh…oh my…

[desert agate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gVJrUpYq6I

[remote monolith]

That's not going to the not exactly unjustified distrust of the civilian apparatus of the Army, leading to significant budget cuts

[desert agate]

This is a highly trustworthy channel

There are not many of those these days

[remote monolith]

Seconded

[desert agate]

But if you're keen to learn about the French Air Force, you should watch this video

[brittle glacier]

I get a lot of my info from the Chieftain so my scope is somewhat limited.

But thank you, this will be interesting.

[remote monolith]

Asking around in r/askhistorian is very recommended, they have a massive catalogue for WWII

[brittle glacier]

I don’t like using Reddit. I use it to advertise my Arma unit and THATS about it.

[desert agate]

Most Youtube channels are bad

[brittle glacier]

I’ve noticed.

[desert agate]

Some are bad for different reasons

Drach has good videos, sometimes weird opinions

[brittle glacier]

Some don’t make sense, others are just annoying.

[desert agate]

And he likes to present his opinions as fact

[brittle glacier]

Lovely.

[desert agate]

I can vouch that he doesn't just do that in videos after being in a car with him for 12 hours

[brittle glacier]

lol

[desert agate]

But his videos are generally well researched and his content is approachable

[remote monolith]

Here's a good book about air operations I can recommend

http://amzn.to/2x916xX

[brittle glacier]

He’s probably not disingenuous, most likely autistic then. Ask me how I know.

[desert agate]

The man who makes YouTube videos about warships and has spent most of his professional career as a civil engineer is autistic

News to me

[remote monolith]

This too for specifically German air industry

[brittle glacier]

lol

[autumn sorrel]

It was a mess

[remote monolith]

This book also has a general summy for the French air force

https://www.amazon.com/Age-Airpower-Martin-Van-Creveld/dp/158648981X

[brittle glacier]

That’s just France homie. About the only thing I can think of to praise them for during interwar/pre-invasion was their 25mm AT guns and the of light machine guns.

[remote monolith]

Overall, I very much recommend that sub, hard to get as thorough a repository as theirs

[autumn sorrel]

What?

[remote monolith]

Mind you the French also made very solid tanks, and their overall plan, while fraught with mistakes, was succeeding in making the Germans play into their hands

[brittle glacier]

France was a mess?

[brittle glacier]

They were decent, crew layouts were horrendous though.

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah but that doesn't mean what they came up with are all bad

[brittle glacier]

Either too few or too many.

[brittle glacier]

I said that as well, my repository of knowledge is just limited.

[desert agate]

Good luck finding a single tank in 1939 which had a good crew layout

They were almost universally awful

[brittle glacier]

Panzer 3?

[desert agate]

No again the French issue was not one of equipment it was one of doctrine

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, Panzer 3 and LT vz. 38

[desert agate]

Doctrine was the continual failing of the French military, they often doggedly refused to shift doctrines even when it was plainly obvious that doctrine was obsolete

[brittle glacier]

Think the Swedes had a decent option lying around.

[desert agate]

Krautslop

[brittle glacier]

Three man turret is superior bro, sorry.

[desert agate]

2 man turret, therefore bad

[autumn sorrel]

Problem is that they either don't have the manpower or lack the political will. The Civilian gov did everything they could to prevent a military coup

[desert agate]

Obviously but it's German and thus not a very good tank

The French had plenty of manpower

42 million is hardly lacking

[brittle glacier]

But not a lot of it was professional.

[autumn sorrel]

Figure that you also hate Interwar British tank as well

[remote monolith]

It was less than what Germany could muster at any rate

[brittle glacier]

It was an okay medium tank in early war and a good light tank later on.

[desert agate]

The British have never built a bad tank

[autumn sorrel]

So Valentine is good then?

[desert agate]

Every British tank is gods gift to the Earth and must be savoured

The Valentine is of course a good tank

[autumn sorrel]

Uh huh, like Cromwell, huh?

[desert agate]

It is good because it is British

The Cromwell was unironically a very good tank

Jokes aside

It was a good tank

It just took way too long to enter service

[brittle glacier]

Matilda 2
Churchill
Centurion
Crusader

Das about it.

[autumn sorrel]

Cromwell is a decent tank but I rather have a Sherman tbh

[remote monolith]

True 42 million was a large population, vut Germany had about 70-ish million at the time, and a bigger percentage of able-bodied population to draw from

[desert agate]

Thank you for your amazing insight

[brittle glacier]

Firefly.

[desert agate]

You could mention any tank of WW2 and the immediate reaction would be that you would prefer a Sherman

[autumn sorrel]

And how many of those are available for conscription and send the field without cripple the industry production and cause political turmoil?

[desert agate]

Because it was the best tank of the war

[brittle glacier]

Yes

I wouldn’t mind crewing a 105 Sherman…

“BEHOLD PUNY KRAUTS MY MOGHTY HOWITZER!!!”

[autumn sorrel]

[desert agate]

Shockingly you could also mention the multibank engine that the Sherman M4A4 had and realise that I would rather kill myself than have to do any sort of mechanical repair on it

In which case the Cromwell is looking a lot nicer

[remote monolith]

Either way, France could never did equally contend with Germany at the time, even without its deficiencies in its doctrines, not without the after effects from WWII

[brittle glacier]

Never crew a Firefly. You’ll have spots in your eyes and permanent back issues.

[autumn sorrel]

Problem with France is that they were too obsessed with recreating ww1 again

[remote monolith]

The whole purpose of the Maginot was to equalize the field in this regard

[desert agate]

Always drive a Firefly. You'll have dead German tank aces at the end of your barrel

[remote monolith]

I mean in fairness it almost worked, and the Germans were also planning to do that

[autumn sorrel]

Even if they have a competent Mechanized doctrine, they still going to turn it into an attrition war

[brittle glacier]

Too bad Germany could drive through forests.

[desert agate]

WW2 tanks were not particularly known for their crew comforts

[remote monolith]

Preliminary planning for Fall Gelb was a literal repeat of WWII with the expectations that they'd lose about a million men driving into France

[desert agate]

Good luck finding one that wasn't uncomfortable and created long term health issues for the crew

At least the Firefly could kill any tank you put in front of it

[remote monolith]

*too bad Allied High Command failed to to take thr multitude of reports about a giant traffic jam in the Ardennes seriously

[autumn sorrel]

Man, Luftwaffe bitch slapped Armee D'Air does help quite a lot doesn't it?

[brittle glacier]

Firefly was still only marginally better than maybe a T-34-76

[remote monolith]

French recon missions repeatedly saw the giant columns in the forest, HQ just failed to act on them and paid dearly

[autumn sorrel]

[remote monolith]

Significantly, though not without a fight

[brittle glacier]

“Preposterous! adjusts monocle Tanks cant drive through forests.

[brittle glacier]

Crew comfort.

[brittle glacier]

Oof

[desert agate]

It could very well be argued that the QF 17 pounder was the finest anti-tank gun of the war

[autumn sorrel]

Dude, Soviet crew consider Sherman leather seat to be God sent

[desert agate]

Personally, I'd rather have that than be stuck in a T-34

[autumn sorrel]

Ahem, BS-3

[brittle glacier]

The American 90 is right there.

[remote monolith]

In regards to the Firefly, admittedly, ergonomics was legit shit

[brittle glacier]

Like I said, marginally better. At least you could load the 17 pounder.

[remote monolith]

Not so much the other Shermans, its just that one variant was really cramped because of the gun

[autumn sorrel]

I blame the brit for trying to cram a literal 17pdr into the turret

[desert agate]

Well do you have an alternative?

[brittle glacier]

Ever tried to sling heavy shit while slightly bent over?

[desert agate]

The American 76 Sherman wasn't ready for D-day and the Allies needed a tank that could kill a Tiger at any angle

[autumn sorrel]

I do, make a casemate TD

[brittle glacier]

The SMALL Sherman turret.

[desert agate]

That's a terrible solution

[remote monolith]

Well there's a surplus of dogs and explosive charges

[brittle glacier]

It was, they didn’t want it, the end users thought their 75s were sufficient.

[remote monolith]

A little bit of training and

Well, you know where this goes

[desert agate]

Yes that's because the end users basically never encountered Tigers but American servicemen had a nasty habit of calling every tank they saw a Tiger

[remote monolith]

In fairness, it did

By late war German armor quality had degraded embarrassingly

[desert agate]

So they simply assumed that the 75 was perfectly good for the job of dealing with Tigers that basically weren't there

[remote monolith]

There's reports of Panther armors spalling and cracking when hit with rounds that theoretically it can withstand

[brittle glacier]

They ran across plenty in Italy and Africa…well not plenty, but more than in Western Europe.

[desert agate]

But if you asked a GI he'd tell you there was a Tiger behind every blade of grass

The Americans had a great time with Tigers in Africa that's for sure

[remote monolith]

Zaloga only documented three verifiable instances in the West Front

[brittle glacier]

Italy was a much different fight compared to Western Europe.

[brittle glacier]

Wasn’t one of those on a train?(obligatory War Daddy reference)

[remote monolith]

There maybe more, but unlikely to be that many, Tigers were only ever assigned to Schwere Panzer Abteilunge and those rarely stay in one place a lot

[brittle glacier]

Fun fact: Sherman frontal hulk armor was comparable to that of the Tiger.

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, Tiger in Italy. The Italy with roughed mountain terrain. I am sure that Tiger crew really love fixing their transmission every 30km

[desert agate]

And they performed so well at Kasserine Pass

[autumn sorrel]

No, they're not

Unless you specifcally mention about the Jumbo

[remote monolith]

Try Elefant

[autumn sorrel]

[desert agate]

Not to be a werhaboo or whatever but really the fact remains that the 76 or the 17 pounder were far more reliable weapons for dealing with Tigers, at least until German armour quality nosedived

[brittle glacier]

Once you factor in sloping and everything, yeah. Comparable, not equal. The Sherman’s were just perceived to have less because the enemy had bigger guns.

[desert agate]

The 75 was a perfectly adequate gun

But I'd prefer a 17 pounder

[brittle glacier]

The German long 75s and 88s were just BETTER.

[desert agate]

They were better because they could outrange the 75 more than anything

[brittle glacier]

Indeed.

[desert agate]

And that's why I say that I'd prefer a 76 or a 17 pounder because they can engage those longer German guns at comparable ranges

And realistically between the 76 and the Firefly, the Firefly was the one that was ready for D-Day

[brittle glacier]

But that doesn’t matter when you use your 75mm howitzers with HE to church bell the enemy crew to death.

[desert agate]

I'd rather have the tank that was there than the one that wasn't

[brittle glacier]

German Mechanic: exhausted wrenching noises

[desert agate]

M4A4 operators barely had it better

[brittle glacier]

Also: M36 go BRRRRRRRRR

[brittle glacier]

Their shit didn’t break as often. I think.

[desert agate]

The M4A4 multibank was so unreliable I have seen one break down in person

[brittle glacier]

And the Sherman was still easier to get at, mechanically at least.

[remote monolith]

Funny thing about the two heavy panzerjager battalions issued the Elefant too, one were career mobiletank hunters, they had experiences with vehicles like the Panzerjager I or the Marder III, so when they got the Elefants, they used it wisely, not outpacing infantry, sniping from a distance, and generally was very smart about usage. This battalion was the one responsible for a lot of those long range kills at Kursk.

The second one used to be a towed AT unit, with little experience using self propelled tank destroyers. This unit got a power high with the Elefant, and generally treated it as an invincible fortress going ahead of infantry screens. THIS battalion was the source of the many, many embarrassing losses on the Elefant. If you're curious, the first is the 653rd Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung, the latter is Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 654

[desert agate]

The Chrysler Multibank was an awful engine that broke constantly

[remote monolith]

The 654 was also notorious for stunts like trying to force the Elefant to climb a fucking hill

Guess whats the result of that

[desert agate]

I was at Tankfest a few years ago and they did a parade of Shermans

The M4A4 was the only tank that day to break down and not move off under its own power

[brittle glacier]

To be fair, a good tank wouldn’t have this issue.

[brittle glacier]

And it was still easier to repair than a panzer, panther or tiger.

[remote monolith]

Yes true, but the point is that if played to its strengths the Elefant could have been well performing

[desert agate]

Yeah well you'll be repairing it often

[brittle glacier]

First off, you didn’t have to remove the turret to service the final drives.

[desert agate]

Shermans had pretty good final drives so that's fine

[remote monolith]

The Elefant was already a very unreliable vehicle and a significant waste, trying to use it like any other tank destroyer was nothing short of disastrous

As mentioned above, the 653rd manages to effectively use them, the 654th...didnt

[desert agate]

This was only an issue with the M4A4 and other tanks with the multibank

[brittle glacier]

Not as much of an issue when:
A. You don’t have to knife fight other units for parts at the depot.
2. You don’t have to disassemble the entire tank to fix it.

[remote monolith]

Oh yeah German spare parts distributions was baaad

Basically once spare parts arrived they'd get laid down and its a free for all on who gets what first

[desert agate]

I might actually have the video of the Multibank engine dying somewhere

[brittle glacier]

I can only imagine the riots ths probably didn’t actually happen.

[remote monolith]

Theft and sabotage was not uncommon

[brittle glacier]

And never enough to go around.

[remote monolith]

Never enough for everyone yeah

[brittle glacier]

Meanwhile: American is shipping entire disassembled tank companies.

Also American spare parts fit out of the box.

[desert agate]

Also because the multibank was such a complicated engine, basically every failure was an engine out repair

Which was a massive job

Again

Godawful engine

[brittle glacier]

Indeed.

I forget where this is from, but it was said that if you saw a vice in an assembly factory in America, it was a sign of incompetence.

[desert agate]

I don’t have a video but I do have a picture of it broken down

[brittle glacier]

Because a vice is for when you need to weld on or grind off a piece of metal to make it fit.

[desert agate]

They did an Axis vs Allied battle reenactment and the M4A4 was still stuck there

Awkwardly in the way while the Germans got their asses kicked

The Hetzer also broke down iirc but it eventually drove away, the M4A4 had to be towed

[brittle glacier]

Well yeah, they don’t have twenty entire tanks disassembled in a warehouse to pull parts from.

[desert agate]

You don't need to say the same thing 10 times

We get it

[brittle glacier]

I might say the same to you? The multi bank sucked, we know.

[remote monolith]

More arbitrary measures were often employed by some of the tank
maintenance company commanders who believed that they were acting
in the interest of their own unit. During the latter part of the war
some of them even resorted to bribery. Others would contact manu-
facturers in the zone of interior outside of normal channels to pro-
cure parts directly at the source. Occasionally, even tactical com-
manders took part in the hunt for parts when the number of service-
able tanks at their disposal began to dwindle. It happened in sevet:al
instances that a private or noncommissioned officer escorting a rail
shipment of laboriously acquired spare parts would suddenly be con-
fronted by a field grade officer of some other regiment or division who
simply ordered him to surrender the entire cargo.
Such expedients obviously did more harm than good. Moreover,
the persistent shortage of spare parts affected the morale of the tank
maintenance personnel who, though capable and willing, were unable
to accomplish their mission at a time when every tank counted.
During the final phase of the war in 1944, the fighting rapidly drew
nearer to the German borders. The shortening of the supply lines
might have improved the spare-parts situation, had not the with-
drawal movement been coupled with the loss of vital armament plants
and depots through evacuation and air attacks.

[desert agate]

Yes and I did a great thing called turning my point into an interesting story

[remote monolith]

To guarantee a sufficient supply of spare parts, a tank spare parts
depot was set up near each installation. In addition, a stockroom car-
rying the most important tank parts was attached to each installation.
All other parts needed by the maintenance personnel could be obtained
directly from the tank spare-parts depot.
Though sound on paper, the plan failed from the outset because of
the confusion created by the sudden decentralization efforts. The idea
of sending damaged equipment to the maintenance installations in
shipments separated a«<rding to types or models proved impractical
for the simple reason that vehicles do not become disabled according
to categories.
Moreover, the civilian personnel engaged in constructing the depot
maintenance installations were unable to adapt themselves to the con-
ditions in Russia and give up the high standards to which they were
accustomed. This gave rise to such dela.ys in construction that the
unfavorable tum meanwhile taken by military events prevented the
installations from opera.ting at full efficiency. The civilian manage-
ments adhered to their customary operating procedures, which resulted
in more thorough but also more time andmateriel-consuming maintenance. What the military considered reparable, the civilians regarded as scrap. Time and again the civilian .firms were guided by principles of economy rather than of expediency. Thus, there was constant friction between the civilian managements and the military
staffs.

[brittle glacier]

Fair.

[remote monolith]

Until the Russian campaign got under way in 1941, the training of
tank maintenance personnel received little attention. Only the tank
drivers and the organizational maintenance personnel were given
special instruction as part of their basic training. When this method
proved unsatisfactory, tank maintenance and recovery personnel were
given specialized courses upon completion of their basic training. In
addition, they received special instruction in the operation of tanks
in extreme heat, under heavy dust, and in subzero temperatures.
The theory that maintenance personnel would acquire the necessary
skill through practical experience in the field repair shops proved
erroneous. Additional courses tl1erefore had to be organized at the
armored schools in order to provide specialized training for main-
tenance and recovery personnel, drivers, and officer candidates of the
armored forces. Civilian technicians as well as tank maintenance and
motor officers also attended these courses in order to improve their
technical knowledge.

During World War II the German Army acquired a wealth of ex-
perience in the field of tank maintenance and recovery. The long
duration of the war and the c:listances over which military operations
were conducted resulted in an extremely high expenditure of tanks,
compelling the Germans to repeatedly reorganize their maintenance
services. In Russia the difficulties of tank maintenance were aggra-
vaood by the scarcity of hard-surface roads, the limited capacity of
the railroad net, and the almost complete lack of technical facilities.
In adc:lition, the German armament industry was overtaxed, and de-
ficiencies in war production planning led to a shortage of spare parts.
In the course of the war it became evident that the factors deter-
mining the operation of a tank maintenance service varied according
to theater of operations, technical developments, etc. These varia-
tions necessitated constant adaptation and improvement in the organic
structure and equipment of the maintenance units. Consequently, no
standard tank maintenance system having a general application could
be evolved. On the other hand, some basic principles worth remem-
bering can be derived from the German experience in World War II.

Basically it was an utter shitshow

Pre Russia nobody gave a shit about good maintenance services, post Russia it was a constant failure after failures in making an actually good system

And basically nill was paid attention to on site recovery aside from the few numbers of Bergepanzers

And those can barely lift anything bigger than a Panther on their own

Towing heavy tanks over long distances, the Tiger model in particular, was very complicated and therefore avoided whenever possible. In one instance in Russia in 1944 an attempt to evacuate a Tiger tank turned out to be a full-scale operation. It had to be interrupted for several weeks because a hard-surface road caved in under two 18-ton prime movers, one tank transporter, and one Tiger Model B (King Tiger) tank, weighing a total of about 140 tons. Over short distances, a superheavy tank such as the King Tiger, which weighed 75 tons, could be moved by another tank of the same type.

[brittle glacier]

I’m surprised there were no reports of mechanics hosting knife fights between their most junior members for transmissions and shit.

[remote monolith]

Unofficially there were probably some shankings in the east

Especially near the end

Just underreported cause, yonow, bad for morale

[brittle glacier]

“GIVE ME ZE ROLLER BEARING HANZ!!!”

https://tenor.com/view/killed-em-hold-this-stabbed-gif-14017151

[brittle glacier]

Fuck it, make it an event, have the supply officers act as bookies and place bets.

[remote monolith]

Also it didn't help Waffen SS units tend to get premium way faster than anyone else

[brittle glacier]

WOOHOO POLITICAL NEPOTISM!!!

Wehrmacht mechanics preparing to raid the neighboring SS Battalion for parts:

https://tenor.com/view/splinter-cell-gif-24258878

Sorry, this joke is probably getting old, I just find the situation fucking hilarious.

“Ve conquered all of these resources but we cannot figure out how to distribute zem!!!”

[chilly flower]

To add to this, excellent three parter by an author who is well versed with Japanese aircraft and their branches at the time
https://balloonstodrones.com/2017/08/24/blinded-by-the-rising-sun-american-intelligence-assessments-of-japanese-air-power-1920-41-part-1-the-1920s

[chilly flower]

The AVG wasn't in combat until after Dec 7 due to several delays, and were primarily fighting IJA types (chiefly the Ki-27, and later the Ki-43), which although better protected than IJN types, had rather lackluster performance due to emphasis on horizontal maneuverability and low-speed handling (unlike the Zero that was designed largely with performance in mind for how the IJN intended to use it, with agility largely just being a bonus from how it turned out)

[chilly flower]

The Thach Weave has been rather overstated in both it's effectiveness and extent of use
Account from Seven at Santa Cruz: The Life of Fighter Ace Stanley "Swede" Vejtasa that paints a more realistic picture concerning the situation

[supple sandal]

6 hours
Reasonable enough

Well more like 7

Hou

Rs

[spring briar]

[chilly flower]

???
The USN didn't have cannon armed fighters in widespread service until 1945 (and even then they were still in the minority compared to other models), the only type that had been using them beforehand was the Helldiver, which also laid the groundwork for the gun's later acceptance due to getting maintainers familiar with it among other things. Introduction of types that used cannons more heavily was also in large part due to changing needs of the Navy, which by 1945 had to deal with not only the Kamikaze threat (a traditional attacker may ditch ordinance and turn back if shot up with .50s for the sake of self-preservation, whereas a Kamikaze will just continue until destroyed in most cases, so surefire destruction was wanted) but also a decline in air encounters over the year, while attacks against shore targets had become increasingly common, a mission profile that favored cannons a lot more. It wasn't until 1947-48 that it became the new standard for USN armament, due to advancing aircraft design and 20mm AN/M3s becoming reliable enough for acceptance. But in late 1943-44, the time when either branch was seeing it's most extensive air campaigns against opponents that could still pose some threat? The .50 was the standard, and it did it's job well, as one component that led to the major American fighter successes in the daylight skies over Europe and the Pacific alike in 1944.

Ironically the USAAF was using them more and far earlier with types like the P-38 and P-39 in 1942, both of which suffering from a rather mixed reputation due to circumstances in some of the theatres they were serving in (cannon reliability being a part of the problem, though that was largely related to manufacturing errors on top of maintenance). Even when the 20mm AN/M2 was somewhat fixed, it wasn't as popular as the .50 for air combat; gun batteries of .50s were very well-optimized for fighter vs fighter combat to the extent that even some Axis aces that flew types with as many as 4 cannons (like the N1K2-J or Fw 190A-8) admitted that it was an advantage, due to less wing loading, reliability (even the most reliable guns of the time could still jam, and when you have as many as 6-8 you get a pretty comfortable leeway against this possibility) many more chances to score a crippling hit (especially important for the average pilot, who generally was not the best shot even if it varied between branches), and .50 cal API performance that was especially good for ruining internal vitals and structures alike (even against all-metal aircraft designs it still worked rather well, there's gun cam footage featuring stuff like 190s, G4Ms, even MiG-15s later on that had their wings snapped off from .50 hits) while still having enough penetration at combat ranges to negate most armor protection.

[chilly flower]

They really only went along with it so that they could revive the Uralbomber project, especially in light of the pressing concerns posed by Allied four-engine heavies in 1943, and then it was canned in mid 1944 when the RLM went into full overdrive with single-engine fighter production due to severe daylight losses, so nearly everything else was done away with for cost-cutting, practically

[brittle glacier]

Even then many early US jet fighters used fifties instead of twenties. If they even had traditional guns.

[chilly flower]

Hence my specification of 1947-48
up until then early USN jet designs were still using .50s, e.g. the FH Phantom

[brittle glacier]

Also: AN/M2 refers to both thirty and fifty caliber guns.

[chilly flower]

I am well aware

[brittle glacier]

F-86 had six 50s which is WILD…granted this was still the time of the dog fight.

[brittle glacier]

The way you put it was off and I must’ve misunderstood what was said.

[chilly flower]

Yes and that's a USAF design, not a USN design

also

https://tenor.com/view/discord-ping-off-no-ping-reply-ping-gif-7694799882666584177

[brittle glacier]

My b.

[brittle glacier]

That’s fair, the Navy FJ-2s, 3s and 4s had quad twenties.

[chilly flower]

Naturally, I'm not sure what that adds to the point though (the Furies weren't all that popular in service as a side note either afaik)

Introduced in '54 and gone from frontline service by '56

Cougars served a fair bit longer from 53 to 59 (and the reserves kept them for longer, compared to the Fury), until the Tiger and Crusader got introduced around the turn of the decade

[cyan oriole]

classic history channel, usually dead except when the dead rise up, and then the message apocalypse comes

[brittle glacier]

I know the marines were using them, not sure till when, says they were retired in 64.

[chilly flower]

Where is that mentioned, may I ask?

[brittle glacier]

Wiki. So, could be wrong.

[chilly flower]

Is that mobile wiki

[brittle glacier]

Yes.

[chilly flower]

regular wiki just mentions 62, same year that the Crusader and Tiger entered widespread use

Ah wait, right, the -4

[brittle glacier]

Ah. Says that on the FJ-2/-3

Makes sense. FJ-2 seemed to be a pure gunfighter with no weapon hardpoints.

[chilly flower]

Well yeah it's a 50s plane

[brittle glacier]

Pierre Sprey woulda loved it.

[chilly flower]

It wasn't until the 60s that missiles had advanced enough to become a prevalent feature, or even the main feature

The FJ-4 is merely an extension of the -2 and -3 in this regard

The Crusader was the last one with heavy gun armament, and it hardly used it in practice

[brittle glacier]

I think it was further modified for Naval use? Every chance Im wrong with that.

The -4 that is

[chilly flower]

It was, but it still wasn't nearly as popular as it's contemporaries, and was largely in the reserves by the 60s

[peak mango]

And even then the reliability of hitting was pretty bad.

[brittle glacier]

Mmmm…forbidden thermal signature.

[peak mango]

Not that the sparrow was any better. ~10% kill rate in Vietnam.

[brittle glacier]

Aye fair.

[peak mango]

Gulf war went up to about 50%, with aircraft designed mainly in the 70s...

[remote monolith]

"Gulf War went up to about 50%" just sounds like a summary of current events

[peak mango]

So aircraft from the 90s with say.. a 4+2 magazine size might want to keep a backup cannon.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpNsIDn6KhE

[runic ermine]

The Amerikabomber right?

German names for things really are straight forward

[brittle glacier]

Fucking glorious. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iw8dRBZMX_c

[lilac pollen]

If this works it’s gonna be raining hell

[brittle glacier]

No indication that it didn't.

Aberdeen said, and I'm paraphrasing here: "Yeah this is just 'I cast 1000lbs bomb' for people who don't actually have air support."

[runic ermine]

How come Bulgaria had a brown and black uniform in ww1?

Was Black for the Balkans and Brown for the Eastern Front?

[brittle glacier]

mmmmm Tasty Madsen.

Never ceases to amaze me people still use the damned things.

[lilac pollen]

Man it just last long like the m1911 and browning 50

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zb7ObPPyzyg

[runic ermine]

Brazil and Ukraine still use them

[brittle glacier]

Ukies? huh...

[runic ermine]

Yep

[brittle glacier]

I always thought it was just Brazilian Favela cops.

[runic ermine]

They use it because they like the sound it makes

[brittle glacier]

Ukies or Brazilians? I was under the impression it was because they had them and they run like a fucking locomotive.

[runic ermine]

Brazil

[remote monolith]

so someone in another channel was talking about John Mosier's Myth of the Great War book and how bad it is

I got curious, so I got a copy

this is from the first chapter alone

With each year of the war, the Central Powers eliminated a major adversary, destroying its army completely and occupying enormous amounts of its territory: Belgium in 1914, Serbia in 1915, Rumania in 1916, Italy in 1917, and at the end of 1917, Russia as well. Whenever the Germans could throw the resources together to mount a major offensive operation in the West, it was successful. In July 1916, for example, at the end of their Verdun offensive, the German Army was master of the battlefield: The last major fort on the right bank, Souville, was a heap of rubble held by a few desperate infantry units.
The data led me to try to answer two questions that logically followed:
Why was the German Army so successful, and why did Germany ultimately lose the war? In terms of technology, it soon became apparent that the German Army entered the war using weapons that the British and the French simply didn’t possess (hand grenades, mortars, motorized superheavy artillery), and had both a qualitative and quantitative superiority in key weapons both sides did possess (like the German 210 millimeter howitzer), and rapidly brought even more new and untested weapons into play (flamethrowers and gas shells in the first quarter of 1915).[15:14]

So this book concludes that Hitler’s initial military successes were largely a function of the systematic innovations of his commanders in an earlier war, and hardly the result of his genius; I would add to that an observation that lies far outside the subject of this book, but one that flows from it quite logically, to the effect that Germany in November 1918 was hardly a beaten country; to twist one of Mark Twain’s aphorisms around, the rumors of its death were greatly exaggerated. Germany won the military struggle against its adversaries because Germany used its resources more intelligently. Aside from the superiority that one would naturally anticipate in a wealthy country with a high level of scientific achievement and an educated citizenry, the German Army was more competent than its opponents because its training was better, its officers were better, and the men who directed its endeavors were more familiar with the basics of the military art

[remote monolith]

For four years, the Germans had dominated the battlefield. The spring of 1918, when Allied troops simply surrendered by the battalion, marked the logical result of that ascendancy. Belleau Wood was an insignificant engagement, but it marked the turning point of the war. The Germans had beaten the British and the French. Now they found themselves up against a troubling new adversary.
It was true that the armies of the two German Empires were melting away. But their armies were still entirely on enemy territory, and they were still surprisingly intact. Too intact for their broken opponents to contemplate fighting them further on their own. With 345,000 men killed or missing, the BEF that had survived Third Ypres had perished during the spring and summer of 1918. The same could be said of the French, who had 340,000 men either dead or missing in this same period, or about twice the comparable German losses.14 Without Pershing’s two million Americans, there was no army capable of beating Germany. Wilson’s terms became the Allied terms.

No greater contrast could be imagined: between the meticulous German
commemoration of its sons who rest in foreign soil, and France’s neglect of its own children who fought to save it; between the funereal pomposity of Foch’s monument and the melancholy intimacy of these cemeteries. If an anthropologist from Mars were to visit here and study these cemeteries carefully, he would conclude that a great war had been fought here, and that clearly one side had been victorious. He would be right.

dog\

I can't

this is such a massive glazin

[narrow rover]

Kaiserboo moment

[autumn sorrel]

What kind of kaiserboo copium is this?

[remote monolith]

someone who as it turns out has been the laughing stock of the academic world for over a decade

[autumn sorrel]

I swear, if this idiot book is somehow NYT best seller

I just can't

"The author knows his military history, strategy, and tactics... packed with evidence, much of it ingeniously obtained and argued."

--Washington Post

"Students of military history love to argue, and John Mosier gives them much to argue about. From armaments and tactics to strategy and politics, he challenges conventional wisdom and forces a rethinking of the war that inaugurated the modern era."

--H. W. Brands, author of The First American and TR: The Last Romantic

[remote monolith]

yeaaaaah

When Clemenceau and Poincaré had asked Pétain to explain what the Germans were doing, he had replied, briefly, that their aim was first to beat the English and then to beat the French. Typically, Clemenceau, who probably disliked Pétain even more than Poincaré did, saw this as evidence of his defeatism. There was no room at the top for a realistic assessment of the war—something that Foch, whose vocabulary apparently consisted of only one word (“attack”), grasped intuitively. But Pétain had gotten the German plan right. Nor was there much that could be done about it. The Germans now had an enormous stretch of the front from Laon to Reims and over to Verdun, where they could mount an attack. The French didn’t have the men to defend the whole line adequately. The best Pétain could do was to hope that when the attack came the AEF would be able to seal it off.

Pershing’s response revealed pretty clearly the extent to which Foch actually had any real authority over anyone. He simply said no. The German successes since March had made it obvious to Pershing that the French had no idea of how to beat the Germans. Nor did they have any claim to their fabled superiority in staffing. The only thing the AEF had seen in the spring of 1918 was mass panic and constant ineptitude.

t was the American Second and Third Divisions, collectively, that stopped the German advance to the south, and thus saved France. It was the Marines who forced the Germans to consider the possibility they might lose the war outright. The cost was terrible. The Marines suffered over five thousand casualties, the bloodiest engagement in the history of the corps until Tarawa. Over the course of the June fighting, the Second Division lost nearly ten thousand men, about the same as the losses of the entire Anglo- American invasion force at Normandy in 1944. Belleau Wood has some claim to be the bloodiest battle the United States has ever fought.

And the American muddle was hardly helped by the French. At the divisional and corps level, the French commands simply collapsed in the face of the German attack, just as the British had done earlier. They had no clear idea what was going on and were of only marginal competence even in the best of circumstances. Like Foch, they confused attitude with action, and were cheerfully willing to sacrifice the infantry to prove that they had the proper sort of dash.

god

this is just

insane

I think he just hated the French

[narrow rover]

Germany will never live down the "aggressor in both world wars" and France will keep getting memed for their WW2 performance
Two history tropes that will live on forever

At least it's easier than looking up Japanese army stuff in Korean

[remote monolith]

about Verdun

The French, always quick to blow the whistle and signal the end to a battle if they could claim a propaganda victory, deliberately stretched this one out until the end of the year. But as the German offensive wound down in July, the French attacks didn’t begin until late October, this is simply anotherattempt to spin the outcome of the battle. By any reasonable standard, the Germans had won at the point they wound down their offensive, and it took the French months even to make a partial attack. Nor had German losses been such as to make Verdun a Pyrrhic victory. On the contrary, when compared to the earlier battles in Champagne and Artois—and to the subsequent fighting on the Somme—losses were much less than is usually supposed.

Over the course of the fighting, 71,504 German soldiers were either killed outright, died of wounds, or were listed as missing. French losses in the same categories came to 160,000.19 The German victory was incomplete, but that was no fault of the officers and men of Fifth Army. The victory was incomplete because the Germans were forced to switch their resources elsewhere to counter the most serious threats they had faced in two years of warfare, not because they had been stopped by French arms at the gates to the city.

[autumn sorrel]

So basically, "German won because France took more losses in the counterattack operation, never mind that German failed to break French line and threat Paris directly"

[brittle glacier]

I think Paris was one of those cities the French didn’t want to fight in.

[narrow rover]

All things considered France held very well in WW1, I have no idea what this dude is talking about really

[remote monolith]

See the extensive discussions in Smythe, esp. 113–19. American historians writing about the AEF have been strangely receptive to taking British (and to a lesser extent, French) claims about Pershing and the competency of the Americans at face value, often seeming to assume that the BEF possessed a level of skill it clearly never did. See, for example, David F. Trask, The AEF and Coalition Warmaking, 1917–1918 (Lawrence, Kansas: University of Kansas Press, 1993), who attributes to Foch and Haig a level of military competency totally at odds with their command record—and with which few analysts of their performance would agree

It's like some massive Hateboner for bot France and England

[brittle glacier]

I was thinking of WW2 for some reason.

[spring briar]

What the actual shit

Actually vile

[narrow rover]

I was wondering when this guy would turn up

[spring briar]

there is a
constantly maintained cemetery
of French and Belgian soldiers
like 5 minutes from my house

*2 actually

1 is 2 minutes away, the other 5 minutes away

[narrow rover]

strokes baguette
It's okay I know you did well in WW1

Come to think of it what is a baguette
Is it just any bread in France that is long or

[spring briar]

inb4 "did the french navy even do anything in WW1" meme

[narrow rover]

Is there some classification

[spring briar]

it's a specific type of bread

a long brioche is still a brioche

[narrow rover]

Only French baked stuff I really like is macaroons

It's really popular here for... some reason I can't understand

[spring briar]

[narrow rover]

https://youtu.be/8T7_hLHD4m4?si=LfeUag6J_RXphFl6

Really North Korea-esque

[autumn sorrel]

Forgive him, he is Korean. He was never colonized by France so he wouldn't know how good Baguette are

So good in fact that Vietnam, a country with no wheat production of its own, import millions tons of flour each year just to make bread.

Out of all the thing French brought to Vietnam, bread would rank near the top

[spring briar]

France and Korea had a little scuffle iirc

1866

[autumn sorrel]

Isn't that American?

[spring briar]

no

[narrow rover]

France and then the US
I got the feeling no one really wanted to "colonize" East Asia

[spring briar]

a small french expedition into Korea was met with a large korean force and was expelled

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, I wouldn't want to governance over Korea

[narrow rover]

Japan wasn't colonized, not even a semi-serious attempt
Korea was spared by western powers but colonized by Japan (eastern power)
China fucked itself harder than anyone else did

[junior trench]

which ones

there's like

3 different major categories of French ones

Yup. I'm not a macaron expert but I am a French guy who has eaten and baked all three kinds and lived in Nancy (one of the "origin cities" of macarons), so I've looked into the question.

"Wait, did you say three?"

Yes, and I think this is the crux of the issue. The original macaron (one 'o'), made popular in France and Italy during the Renaissance, looks nothing like the tiny, oh-so-delicate hamburger-like structure. It's a flat almond cookie which kinda looks like a snickerdoodle, although its density, texture and taste is different.

So that was the OG macaron, which can still be found in many a bakery in France (and is traditionally associated with the city of Nancy). Then came the Parisians, all fancy and such, and particularly the Ladurée bakery, who according to legend came up with the sandwich macaron, which is essentially two of the OG macarons, except a bit smaller, and some ganache piped in between them. It evolved, the cookies became smoother, tinier, and later modified with myriads of colours and flavours to become the macaron we all know and love.

But at the same time, away from the fancy bakeries in Paris but rather deep in the peasant kitchens of the rest of the country, another evolutionary branch of the OG macaron emerged. It essentially became a whole category of cookies of various shapes and flavours, all under the name of macaron, with the one thing in common that they were generally made of some sort of grated nut, sugar, and egg whites. Amongst these, the shaved coconut one became the most popular, and through semantic shift became known as a macaroon (two 'o') in English. In French, different names emerged: some people (my family for instance) still call them macarons; other people call them congolais (which means Congolese and probably has some racist etymology); others yet call them rocher coco (coconut rock, because they tend to look like tiny delicious rocks).

So, to recap: OG macaron, flat & straightforward evolved into the fancy-schmancy Parisian style macaron and its ruggier cousin the macaroon. All three of these may be called macaron in French and usually you have to add a bit of context (e.g. macaron de Nancy, macaron Ladurée, macaron coco).

Hope that helps.

[narrow rover]

The only ones sold here

[spring briar]

I will bring you a fresh baguette

[brittle glacier]

What's the deal with the US Chicago Piano? anyone got any sources?

[flint mesa]

what kind of deal

[brittle glacier]

Just info. All I know about them is that they aren't really all that good compared to Oerlikons and bofors that replaced them.

[junior trench]

http://www.navweaps.com/

[halcyon coyote]

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_1-1-75_mk1.php

[brittle glacier]

Grazi

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBZ-YmatYww

[supple sandal]

What make a baguette a baguette

And what of a shorter baguette

[timber linden]

Chicago industry was really confused at the time pianos and typewriters that werent either

[brittle glacier]

lol

[runic ermine]

https://youtu.be/azLtryxtKvc?si=w8Ex1FEAQG42C5lL

[lilac pollen]

Kind of feel bad for the Soviets in the early stages of the operation, they got steamrolled before they know tf is going on

[runic ermine]

Also worth noting that they were facing Germany, Italy, Finland, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Croatia, and Vichy France

[lilac pollen]

But really only the Germans are competent but since the frontline got stretched to far so they have to fill in with those guys

[runic ermine]

-Italy provided more than Germany asked for (Hitler asked for 2 divisions but Mussolini sent 8)
-Romania provided 910,000 men in two field armies
-Hungary provided its most modernized army, the 2nd Army
-Slovakia sent an expeditionary force in an attempt to show Germany that they were a better ally than Hungary
-Finland had several units north of Leningrad
-Croatian units were under German and Italian units
-The Vichy French LVF was under a German unit

[runic ermine]

Also one of Slovakia's engagements is kinda comical
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lypovec

They fucked up but were saved by artillery

Good job little guys

[lilac pollen]

Anyway glad that you mentioned those guys because Western media just fucking forgets

[runic ermine]

I study history for a reason. Also I got custom ww2 Hungarian and Romanian soldiers in lego

And Finnish ones too

[runic ermine]

A lot of depictions of Stalingrad only show Germans for some reason

[lilac pollen]

If Lego made military set they could have make more money

[runic ermine]

Customs are expensive sometimes

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5qXC86YEwQ

[narrow rover]

As ridiculous as those were I wish the Soviets actually did build a BB

Because there's a chance those would float around until current day

[lilac pollen]

I mean they try but with the war raging near their capital and sea mines prevent their navy from doing anything much

[rapid junco]

A Gloster Meteor and its armaments

[autumn sorrel]

🤨

[runic ermine]

What's up

[autumn sorrel]

Literally other than Germany and maybe Italy, rest are nothing

[runic ermine]

910,000 Romanians is nothing?

[autumn sorrel]

Considering Soviet normally throwing around a mil strong Front with tank and mech corps at Romanian direction, yes

Romania is even worse ally than Hungary

At least Hungarian Army can field Tanks and mech unit to fight the Soviet

[runic ermine]

Until they lost the 2nd Army...

[autumn sorrel]

And Romanian have nothing left while Hungarian Army was able to regroup and reconstitute the 2nd Army

[runic ermine]

At least Romania took Odessa and contributed 2 armies but yeah, after Stalingrad Romania never recovered

Losing 2 field armies is bad

@autumn sorrel who do you think was the most useful and useless of the axis?

[autumn sorrel]

Germany

Both case

[runic ermine]

Ok what about ally to Germany

Worst one and then the best one

In my opinion, the worst was Bulgaria and the best was Hungary

[lilac pollen]

In my opinion Italy sucks only their navy is good

[peak mango]

Got to see the Snowbirds, cool team. So quiet compared to Blue Angels/Thunderbirds.

Also LOL at the canada goose formation... https://www.canada.ca/en/air-force/services/showcasing/snowbirds/formations.html

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drJ513mp3PY

[timber linden]

https://tenor.com/view/fma-roy-mustang-mustang-roy-sad-gif-12080741

[narrow rover]

You were a plane that shouldn't have existed but... damn, you were at least cool

[brittle glacier]

Next stop:
A giant F-35 with a GAU-8/A or GAU-13/A

Maybe we could modify a B-21?

[timber linden]

F35 isnt as good as a10 nor f22 but..........why are we doing this again?

[brittle glacier]

For a stealthy CAS platform.

[narrow rover]

F35 is much better than A10

[brittle glacier]

It does admittedly have a small payload maximum…

[runic ermine]

End of an era

[brittle glacier]

Hear me out what if:

[zenith veldt]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1151198727739019274/1385690900331630742/tumblr-ophxc07-V2-H1vyzms0o2-500.gif

[zenith veldt]

That's a weird looking LAV..

[brittle glacier]

Stryker based DE-SHORAD
for lasering drones and shit…but you could probably Kentucky Fried Skullfuck some infantry/light vehicles with it.

[runic ermine]

https://x.com/Jason_R_Burt/status/1971666082965737590?t=JPhwJdjE654OMaVLHYw1BA&s=19

J&L Historical (@Jason_R_Burt)

“A ship is always referred to as ‘she’ because it costs so much to keep her in paint and powder.”

-Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz ⚓️

X · Sep 26, 2025, 8:00 PM

[brittle glacier]

Nimitz will never not be based.

[supple sandal]

What happened to SPAA turret on Abrams hull

[brittle glacier]

York, VADS, etc.
They probably ended up deeming it “superfluous to needs” or whatever before they deep sixed SPAA altogether for GWOT.

Though I must admit Ive not heard of the project.

Concepted only.

[supple sandal]

The russian auto cannon is either 30mm or 57mm, sometimes the 23mm came back

But western autocannon: 20mm, 25, 30, 35, 40

[brittle glacier]

Because math is easier in 5s

The only 57 i can think of in western service is the Mk. 110.

[supple sandal]

But can't they just pick one

[brittle glacier]

There’s also like a thousand variants of 20

[brittle glacier]

Not really, each one does different things. 20mm is mostly for aircraft. 25 was the standard for IFVs but they realized that was too small so they started moving to 30-35mm for payload and versatility. 40mm these days is used for Close in Anti-Air.

We can get away with it because we have the logistics capacity to support it. Mostly.

[supple sandal]

Are the 20mm still in air defense role

[brittle glacier]

Mostly found on aircraft. Though the old VADS had a 20mm Vulcan on it, but I don’t know what they’re planning with that one, if at all.

That was mostly for pp-slapping choppers.

[brittle glacier]

Though it’s mostly that we’re in a transitional period.

[shrewd pecan]

incredibly dumb concept tbh

[brittle glacier]

The York was already fat, using an even heavier hull with even more shit tacked on ain’t a good idea, youre shooting at aircraft, if you get hit at all you’re fucked, best to use a lighter chassis.

Also lasers. All of that money we didn’t spend on SPAA means we have lasers capable of frying jets on the horizon.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2025/09/german-navy-more-f127-frigates-and-an-upcoming-decision-on-the-f126/

[runic ermine]

Can I just say that Oliver Hazard Perry is one hell of a name https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Hazard_Perry

[shrewd pecan]

????

you aren't gonna be replacing the role of SPAAs with lasers

you might end up with lasers as a secondary armament but the needed power generation for a laser capable of taking down a jet is not possible currently on a mobile platform

combine that with the fact modern air to surface missiles are gonna outrange the laser and are gonna be far more effective at downing the target

lasers only really make sense if your dealing with lowcost threats like drones and artillery shells

though in the drone realm microwave weapons are likely gonna be the better investment

[mental tapir]

I'm thinking interceptor drones and apkws are the major counter-drone weapons for the present and near future

Sufficiently long range/short response time and doesn't blow a hole in the budget

[cyan oriole]

realistically, best ally is still italy

the downsides don't outweigh the benefits

could also make a case for japan being a german ally

[autumn sorrel]

Change in doctrine, again. Originally it was intended to use the Abrams hull so you can have a SPAA that can keep up with the armor formation and deal with Attack Heli, then they found out that both Soviet and USAF have Heli launched ATGM that fall outrange the SPAA and other shenanigan such as refocus to air force. The project was deem not necessary.

[autumn sorrel]

Honestly, 3D printed frame and AI driven targeting system will keep the cost down while counter any new drone threat short of a heavy long range drone.

It still funny to me that for all the effort in drone tech, everything come back to make cruise missile.

[mental tapir]

True

I wonder how much extra cost it would add to give the drone low observability features

The shape can be 3D printed and it's technically already fly-by-wire

[brittle glacier]

Sir DE-SHORAD is right there.\

[autumn sorrel]

Depend on the cam you planned to use and whether you want it to be 24/7 interceptor.

[mental tapir]

I mean stealth features for attack drones instead of interceptor drones

Like stealth-ifying a Shahed

[autumn sorrel]

Ah, most likely not much tbh. You can apply radar absorption paint on the frame for not much additional cost.

If the paint are also produce at scale that is

[mental tapir]

I suppose while it's "fly-by-wire", the programming for a drone with relaxed stability will be more complicated than that for conventional stability

[mental tapir]

What about giving the drone a low-observable geometry? Or is that already a thing with one-way attack drones?

[autumn sorrel]

Well, they could reuse Cruise missile guidance programming.

[autumn sorrel]

Their shape is already good enough. Only problem you will have is the noise. It is much easier to install listening post to spot Shahed than actually trying to spot it optically. That and bringing up more of drone radar system.

[autumn sorrel]

Imo, they will only start making attack drone more difficult to spot when interceptor drone and anti drone AA group start becoming more standardize. Even in the current state where inception rate are high, we are seeing relatively low cost attack drone or baits are being intercepted by much higher cost and difficult to replace missile.

[shrewd pecan]

if it gets fielded

[shrewd pecan]

per shot microwave weapons are gonna be the cheapest and most effective against most drone threats

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_Leonidas#

https://youtu.be/vLA826fH4Vc

APKWS and Coyote are obviously still gonna have their use

especially against threads that are shielded against HPMs or for more strategic/higher end drones

[brittle glacier]

I do not expect they won’t. They’d be stupid not to given what we know so far.

[autumn sorrel]

VTOL like Osprey would be much better if they use jet engines instead of rotor

[brittle glacier]

Wouldn’t the maintenance costs skyrocket? But yes.

Also maybe melting tarmac.

[little palm]

Just add jets to the side/top

[supple sandal]

How cheap can manpads can be made

[brittle glacier]

Tooled up production lines or not?

[supple sandal]

Scale up production?

Yeah

[echo onyx]

bought NVA stuff, they sent me the wrong badge

[brittle glacier]

Let’s say we wanna go REALLY cheap, take an APKWS system and swap out the laser detection system for an IR homing system, tweak the fusing, build a launcher that facilitates it all, factoring out development and tool up costs…maybe…35K a pop? Effectiveness might be wanting, but it would be a MANPADS…

This is working off the unit cost of an APKWS rocket.

Which is 22K

[runic ermine]

That sucks
https://youtu.be/AK-LyhWg6TM?si=eA19q5v6VFIlPrhJ

[brittle glacier]

Fuck

[echo onyx]

wou

[wintry moat]

Oh, that’s the P-63 and B-17 collision in texas, right?

[echo onyx]

yup

[peak mango]

Is that recent?

[wintry moat]

Happened a few yrs ago now

[echo onyx]

year or two

[brittle glacier]

RIP the homies.

[peak mango]

Or just start with the hydra 70 for 8k and slap on 12k worth of laser detection gear (resulting in the apkws) ... 😛

[peak mango]

Yeah I thought it was a little older

[peak mango]

Yeah microwave is basically terminal defense. For 5000'+ alt you'd want vampire(apkws) or maybe roadrunner https://www.anduril.com/roadrunner/

[peak mango]

Just a much lower cost one, spam defenses.

[peak mango]

Go full BOLO. Big 140+ main gun, integrated microwave weapons on all faces, multiple CROW+BLADEs for kinetic stops and secondary arms, smart AI to control it all to reduce manpower requirements...

[brittle glacier]

Technically you’d still want a shoulder launcher. And you’d want the APKWS II, but Im unsure how suited that IR sensor would be for chasing helicopters, jets, drones, missiles, etc.

[brittle glacier]

Myehhhhhh…

Just put a laser on it at that point.

[peak mango]

Lasers need burnthrough time.

Lol shoot toss a six pack of ESSM in the back for high altitude threats.

[peak mango]

Iirc the Javelin sight is compatible with stingers.

Yup. https://www.twz.com/the-army-is-now-firing-stinger-missiles-from-a-javelin-launcher

[brittle glacier]

Yes but those are uber expensive…you could achieve the same thing with off the shelf components for a fraction of the cost?

[peak mango]

CLUs are reusable. And off the shelf.

[brittle glacier]

It could be more cheaper.

That and you’d still need a tube to launch from.

The question was: How cheap could you make a MANPADS.

[peak mango]

Or some rails lol. Ten bucks at the machine shop. That said yeah sure a cheaper CLU would be nice, but as a reusable item, we're mainly looking at reducing the cost of the munition.

[peak mango]

Pulling a part off the shelf is 'free'

But sure a COTS CLU to spam around wouldn't hurt l.

[peak mango]

They're turbines. Jets with a shaft PTO. Pure jet would be silly and inefficient.

[brittle glacier]

Depends on how many CLUs you’re shipping per missile, because knowing the military they don’t want JUST missiles, especially since youre effectively doubling the amount of CLUs you need, and the AT man and AA man aren’t gonna be too keen on sharing, especially on a modern battlefield.

[peak mango]

But tbh I just want the AI tank waifu lol.

[brittle glacier]

Give me android boat waifus.

[peak mango]

AT man becomes AA man when there's no tanks around.

[brittle glacier]

But when there are tanks and aircraft around?

[peak mango]

and becomes bunker buster man with unguided hydras...

[peak mango]

priority of threat and fire.

team had better git gud at reloading.

[brittle glacier]

Ehhhh…

Though you could probably have a fire control and two missilemen with differing payloads…

[peak mango]

FWIW USMC's going that way anyway with the 13 man squad concept. Swap one team with a drone/rocket/GL support team.

figure you'll run it like a MG, gunner and assistant gunner with extras. In this case, missileer and assistant/reloader/ammo bitch

[brittle glacier]

Two missileers and a forward offset fire control/targeting man.

[peak mango]

CLU's designed for direct attachment to the tube.

[brittle glacier]

Ive run something similar in Arma(probably not comparable, I know), but even with two shots in the tube juggling between aircraft and light vehicles is a pain in the dick.

[peak mango]

and with something offset you'd have to set up before engaging, vs just powering up and going

[brittle glacier]

Could easily be modified.

[peak mango]

offset makes the reaction shot harder.

[brittle glacier]

Not too far offset, essentially just a dude poking his head over cover.

Opens up the possibility of helmet mounted units too.

[peak mango]

Anyway, if your support fires team had 2 guys devoted to the missiles and 2 guys devoted to the drones, they can split the duty. Drone guys get primary anti armor, Missiles guy get primary anti air.

assuming you're getting hit by air and tanks at the same time.

Just gotta establish doctrine and drill it before contact.

[brittle glacier]

Could replace one of the guys with a UGV, carry both types of missile and just feed targeting data to the packmule in the rear.

[peak mango]

Reloading is way easier with 2 dudes.

Even with a ugv carrying the hardware.

[brittle glacier]

You’d ideally have every missile in squad inventory setup on the UGV.

[peak mango]

sounds like ... a target.

[brittle glacier]

Keep it behind cover.

[peak mango]

still, primary target for opfor drones, etc.

whack that, you've lost a bunch of your firepower.

dudes distribute easier and find cover a little better.

[brittle glacier]

Ideally it would also be packing an anti-drone system, like a radar guided SAW or something.

[peak mango]

which then gets heavier, needs tracks, ... ai bolo waifu etc.

[brittle glacier]

You could fit A LOT on this little turd.

Which they already plan to have all the ammo on anyway.

[peak mango]

well reloads at least.

Anyway all that network stuff is a lot of dev work. 'Make Javelin CLU compatible with apkws2' seems like a lot less work. 😛

[brittle glacier]

Indeed.

I wonder if CLU is that expensive normally or if it’s an economy of scale issue.

[peak mango]

both? mil FLIR isn't cheap (like 10x more sensitive than the cheapo leptons), small run numbers of electronics aren't cheap (even with say, 12k CLUs worth of production, that's a tiny tiny run on commercial scale) ...

[brittle glacier]

Yup

The mental image of a UGV with a SAW and a seven shot(or more) pod of hydras is kinda awesome.

[peak mango]

So let's say we go with a FLIR Neutrino sensor for our COTS kit, , that's gonna be almost 70-100k for the sensor alone. https://groupgets.com/collections/neutrino-is

[brittle glacier]

Damn.

[peak mango]

Why a SAW? again, the mil off the shelf option would be a CROWS... and 1) you can slap a M134 on that bad boy... 😛 and if you can fit a crows-j, you can likely fit a 4/6 70mm rocket pod on it...

Btw this is what the BLADE kit looks like.

so can't run it and a pod of rockets...

See? Much better than a SAW

[brittle glacier]

Ammo weight and intended target, mostly.

[brittle glacier]

Ammo and battery weight. Not to mention complexity.

[peak mango]

If you have a vehicle, 7.62 > 5.56

[brittle glacier]

Then a 240.

[peak mango]

SAW offers nothing over a M240 😛

unless you're carrying it on foot, I mean.

[brittle glacier]

It does limit available ammo.

1000 of 5.56 to peepee slap FPVs and shit. Then a fixed Hydra pod on the back to launch APKWS at helos and light vehicles, also bigger drones.

[peak mango]

imho if you want that counter-UAS role the increased stability and ROF of the M134 might be worth it.

[brittle glacier]

For a dedicated manned vehicle? Yes 100%

[peak mango]

plus BRRT

[brittle glacier]

Could probably achieve the same effect with a purpose built 7.62 chain gun.

[peak mango]

Anyway with the present slap on kit can't mount both the rockets and the counter drone radar.

[brittle glacier]

I think they’ve got some pretty compact packages out there.

Not radar guided of course.

Camera and computer guided.

[peak mango]

I mean it's not something some angle iron and a motivated welder won't fix...

[brittle glacier]

Yup

Like I said, it dont need to be rotating, just onboard.

[peak mango]

mount the blade kit on top vs next to, even if it interferes with reloading etc.

[brittle glacier]

Yup

[peak mango]

I think it likely needs to be on the mount at the moment.

[brittle glacier]

Mount the pod, then the turret on top and radar on turret, if you want to use turret.

[brittle glacier]

Depends on how you handle targeting.

[brittle glacier]

*radar

[peak mango]

network targetting is more expensive than 'follow the dot' or 'follow the heat'

doubt apkws2 has off axis seeker capability

[brittle glacier]

Fair.

Yeah, the LAV-AD method would be cool, and funny.

bolts Hydras on top of turret

[peak mango]

VAMPIRE on a hilux doesn't get old.

[brittle glacier]

Is the HYDRA pod from the VAMPIRE system unique? Or was it a preexisting four shot tube, because a multi-use M202 Flash missile launcher would be cool.

[peak mango]

https://www.defensenews.com/newsletters/digital-show-daily/2018/10/08/not-just-for-aircraft-anymore-this-laser-guided-rocket-kit-can-be-mounted-for-ground-defense/ looks like it's a custom.

well, ish.

[brittle glacier]

Put a shoulder pad and pistol grip on that bitch and get me four Hydras with Thermobaric Warheads, we’re going trolling.

[peak mango]

At least purpose built for ground systems.

[brittle glacier]

https://tenor.com/view/skull-lau-laughing-laughing-skull-gif-25226833

[peak mango]

Bruh I hope you lift, 15kg per rocket. Plus another 10 for the multi tube.

[brittle glacier]

https://tenor.com/view/bh187-commando-arnie-arnold-shoot-gif-19215950

[peak mango]

Yeah that's 12kg

[brittle glacier]

So what you’re saying is that it’s a crew served weapon?

[peak mango]

Sure, in the sense that it'd take a crew to get it in place on a mount... the M2 is crew served and it takes 3 infantry guys to move it around... and only weighs 40kg... plus 20kg for the tripod.

Single tube + CLU is about one person's worth of gear. Or two rockets in tubes not expecting to use them.

[brittle glacier]

Fair

I’m now imagining a bunch of UGV variants.

[peak mango]

CROWS with a 4 pack of hydras sounds reasonable.

[brittle glacier]

Including what amounts to a casemate assault gun using either Hydra pods or a 25mm Bushmaster…

[peak mango]

bushmaster is likely a little too heavy for the CROWS. Maxes out at the M2.

[brittle glacier]

That would be cool.

[brittle glacier]

Like I said, a Casemate mounted on a UGV.

Not a fully rotating turret.

[peak mango]

again limited off axis sighting.

And if you're firing dumb, you've just reinvted the katyusha...

[brittle glacier]

I mean, if you’re employing it as an AG what you need is firepower, not precision.

[brittle glacier]

Except the target is down the street.

Imagine ripple firing a 19 pack of Hydras at an enemy strong point.

[peak mango]

Mostly doing nuffin? Nah.

Warhead weight is about 5kg or so.

[brittle glacier]

5kg of explosives isn’t nothing.

But yeah, that’s fair.

[peak mango]

If it hits near it's intended target.

~ the same as a 120m mortar or 105mm howitzer.

[brittle glacier]

Direct fire support is kinda lacking in our military, that’s what the Booker was fire before they put a pin in it.

[peak mango]

not survivable, too heavy.

Booker was a horrible choice.

[brittle glacier]

Didn’t say it was perfect.

Just said THATS what it was for.

Now working something the size of a UGV into that role would make it much more accessible.

Also casemates are cool.

[peak mango]

Found the S103 fan. 😛

[brittle glacier]

Yes

They need to make an S-tank two with a 155mm.

Also: What if we made a UGV that carried Hellfires?

[peak mango]

Brimstones.

That said, it's enough of a stand off weapon, UGVs are likely unneccesary. Remember, UGVs still need a crew to do maintenance and reloads and whatnot.

[brittle glacier]

Fair.

[peak mango]

Only reason to remote things is to get crew out of the way of return fire.

And.. well, you can literally do brimstones out of a box truck.

[brittle glacier]

Oh no. Wiesel AWC, but it’s for putting helicopter weapons on, instead of a tiny 20mm…maybe even a Maverick.

Though that still leaves direct fire support an issue…

This is a thing and I’m here for it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMOS

[peak mango]

mortars aren't direct fire.. but yeah. 😛

That said, well within drone envelope.

heck even mobile arty is within loitering munition envelope.

[brittle glacier]

I mean…you COULD…

[peak mango]

not sure it'll depress that low tbh

[brittle glacier]

Make your own mount.

[peak mango]

Oh. My.

[brittle glacier]

A 120mm over open sights would achieve a lot.

“It won’t go that low!!!”
Is easily fixed by calling GM or LockMart.

[peak mango]

Eh. At that point just go AGL with HEDP 40mm

[brittle glacier]

“Hey LockMart? I got this mortar, but I want to direct fire buildings with it.”
”IT IS DONE!!!”

[brittle glacier]

Why only one?

Why not four?

https://tenor.com/view/bofors-40mm-aa-gun-quad-40mm-l-60-gif-5669639422209044829

[peak mango]

Lots of misses doing nothing, again.

[brittle glacier]

We need a step between a 40mm grenade launchers and rolling up a Paladin…

Also: Trenches

[peak mango]

60, 90, and 120mm mortars? Drones? Coax? 120 HE?

That said, 40mm does pretty good against soft area targets, as does ye ole crew served 60.

Or DPICM MLRS if you gotta splat a lot of folks at once.

[brittle glacier]

Sure, but sometimes you gotta rock up and inch a guy in ths face.

[peak mango]

On the assault side, precision > saturation.

[brittle glacier]

Size matters.

[peak mango]

Only for those who can't hit the spot... and even then, size has diminishing returns.

[brittle glacier]

Fair

[peak mango]

I mean example - used to need a 120 tank cannon to kill tanks at past a KM. Or a heavy AT rocket. Now a half dozen FPVs can (mobility) kill even an abrams, with glorified RPG rounds. And if you have a mobility kill, it's a kill kill if you can't recover it before more accurate fire gets you. Maybe even from a dropper drone.

[brittle glacier]

Oh god…

120 dropper drone…

[peak mango]

Again, not as necessary once you have sufficient accuracy. You just need enough to penetrate and cause the desired effect. The higher blast radius does little more and makes the drone a lot heavier.

[brittle glacier]

How heavy a charge does one need to crack open a tank?

[peak mango]

40mm hedp should do enough to peen. Or RPG. Everything else is cooking off the ammo / fragging the electronics.

Shape charge does the peen work, not the mass of explosive filler.

[brittle glacier]

Size of the charge matters.

[peak mango]

size doesn't guarentee peen. It's AP vs HE.

[runic ermine]

Do you guys think that Gallipoli and HHL Vietnam will be good?

[brittle glacier]

eh?

[brittle glacier]

<@&460646206851252224>

[woeful heath]

Question,

Does anyone know whether this design existed

[scenic folio]

Mmmmm well that was a hybrid, kind of battleship/carrier sooo yes but I might be wrong

[brittle glacier]

There was one hybrid nattleship that I'm really aware of barring some of the older oddball shit.\

There's also some cruisers? maybe?

The most recent Russian Carriers are actually just classified as missile carriers with skiramps.

[desert agate]

<@&472236072743600148>

[twilit geyser]

It did not. Seems to be this is based on the CF-2 flight deck/flying deck cruiser design study.

[woeful heath]

I see, thanks

I was wondering what it came from and wondered where the inspiration

[grave ravine]

Actually this does seem to be based on a real design, an earlier USN flight deck cruiser design

Design 393/scheme 2

From Friedman's US cruisers

[grave ravine]

Cruiser carrier, the US cooked up a bunch of these designs in the interwar years (especially when Pratt was CNO, it was his pet project), but none of them went anywhere

anyways scheme 2 had what was even for the time an impractically short flight deck, which is how it fits 12 6" guns

[cyan oriole]

if it's a hybrid ship, it probably didn't exist

the only hybrid battleships were the Ise and Hyuga

and for if the design itself existed, yeah it's based on that design 393 that was posted

[peak mango]

I mean this is Azur lane where paper wishes are cute girls...

[cyan oriole]

I can pull up a clearer screenshot instead of a photo of a book

[cyan oriole]

at least there aren't any gigafanfic ships like wows has

[shrewd pecan]

just pull up a abrams or a bradley at that point

[cyan oriole]

al ship designs are a cross between the fanfic nature of wows and the shit balancing of war thunder

but it's fine because waifu, gg reds

wargame developers hate this simple trick

[peak mango]

"yeah we could have had dozens of battleships, because they are hawt"

[peak mango]

BBV Kearsage is a cutie too. 😛 Not that I can figure out how such a plan would work irl.

[cyan oriole]

https://tenor.com/view/true-feel-that-thats-true-gif-7410050725709839510

[peak mango]

magic STOL flapjacks...

[remote monolith]

its that day of the year again

30th September is a magical date for Indonesians

[peak mango]

A DDG variant with ospreys that can provide aerial refuel, a couple of F35Bs, and the usual aegis system could be intersting in a modern context...

[shrewd pecan]

that's just

Kuznetsov but western

[peak mango]

Except as an cheapish escort/aux ship, not a capital centre of the fleet showpiece.

[shrewd pecan]

Kuznetsov is a relatively cheaper vessel

with the capabilties you want

she is a aircraft carrying cruiser

she is intended to function as a surface combatant while also carrying fixed wing aircraft

[peak mango]

cruiser volare ...

[shrewd pecan]

why do you think she carries shittons of air defense and anti ship missiles?

[peak mango]

Doctrinal difference. Kuznetsov was a fleet carrier-ish. Capital ship, centre of the fleet stuff. A DDV in this context is a extender platform, refuel other air assets and provide a minimal (LHA/baby carrier) level of air power as needed, maybe some independent ops. A lighter LHA with more integral air/sea defenses.

[shrewd pecan]

its not gonna be lighter than a LHA

your going to need something the size of a Kuznetsov or a LHD/LHA if you want to carry both the aviation facilities needed to operate F-35Bs

alongside the needed armaments, sensors and everything else you need for a aegis destroyer/cruiser

[peak mango]

40k t? I mean Izumos are 20k t and can handle F35B

[shrewd pecan]

Izumos don't carry 90+ VLS cells

they also don't carry SPY-1/6 grade radars

their only armament is 4 CIWSs

for that type of ship your going to need something relatively big to make the necessary internal volume for both the VLS and the aircraft storage

on top of the entire sensor suite & C&C infrastructure

your making a western kuznetsov here

there is no avoiding that

[peak mango]

Like I said, relatively small aircraft storage. Enough V22s to act as refuelers, a section of F35s for self defense.

[shrewd pecan]

what's the point then

V-22s aren't going to carry enough extra fuel to give the F-35Bs the needed range

and if your only working with like 8 F-35s and no other aircraft

you might as well just ditch them for more VLS

[peak mango]

Independent action platform with a strike extender for the CCGs

[shrewd pecan]

on top of that your gonna need a decently sized flight deck and cope slope to actually give the F-35Bs the needed room to take off with actual armament

[shrewd pecan]

tomahawk exists

[peak mango]

tomahawks can't help a CV group extend it's range.

[shrewd pecan]

ERAMs have ground attack capability

[shrewd pecan]

the CV group has a carrier

why does it need a cope carrier as well?

[peak mango]

like I said, refuel.

[shrewd pecan]

the carrier can operate the needed refuelers

MQ-25 exists

[peak mango]

It'd need to predeploy them before the strike package.

[shrewd pecan]

ok?

[peak mango]

'exists' is ... n't quite there yet. But yes.

[shrewd pecan]

you would need to do the same with cope carrier refueler MV-22s

the carrier could additionally operate those MV-22s

without much impact on its operations

[peak mango]

.... no. Not unless it launched them way before the packages.

[shrewd pecan]

????

there's plenty of deck space on a nimitz or a ford to launch fixed wing aircrafts while also undergoing rotary aircraft operations

and again if this such a pressing issue you need a entirely new capital grade vessel for it

[peak mango]

v22s cap at 250 kts

[shrewd pecan]

so

the issue remains

even if you have a dedicated vessel

for operating the MV-22s

[peak mango]

Again... we're talking DD(ish), not CV size. Gotta be cheap.

[shrewd pecan]

why are we making this

a kuznetsov type hybrid ship

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Control_Ship
over doing the actual cheap and logical option here

hell even in the Kuznetsov weight class
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_Carrier_(Medium)

[shrewd pecan]

and if the point is costs why are we adding a entirely different vessel to the CSG to solve a issue that would exist either way

[peak mango]

It's not. Independently steaming vessel that can support a CSG as an aux mission. Support, in this case, could be far forward screening and/or refueling.

[shrewd pecan]

so