history

[desert agate]

I'm also a fan of the Anzac aesthetic, and I think it's a shame their replacements are much smoother

[peak mango]

not huge into the 'weld on extra shit' aesthetic. Like .. she's got some love handles.

Look at that stern ..

[zealous vine]

From a few sources, only the lead ship Dealey had 533mm torps on her suite

Navypedia listed them, a member of my community stated so, so does Wikipedia (< questionable)

[junior trench]

Navypedia doesn't list them, and the wiki pages disagree with each other

It also just generally be really weird for them to receive 21" tubes

The extant ASW torpedoes around when the class was being designed and built are all 12.75" or 19" weapons

And there's a general dearth of 21" ASW/homing torpedoes at the time as well

[supple sandal]

https://youtu.be/MDJlxMYjqPM

[narrow rover]

The completely self defeating
Cruiser deck slopes

"Shoot here for easy seppuku"

[eternal veldt]

To be fair, only two of the Japanese cruisers were lost due to their own torpedoes being set off.

And in any event the Japanese learnt to jettison their torpedoes overboard in the course of war.

Suboptimal, but not worth the risk.

[autumn sorrel]

So, about the new ships, what are the historical context about them, especially about bigger fleet unit like CV and BC

[supple sandal]

what new ships

[autumn sorrel]

Hakuruko and Omi, I think

[eternal veldt]

Hakuhou is G15 (if we follow the line that she's Taihou's little sister).

G14, if you follow what EN posted about. There currently is zero distinction betwen G14/15 on the English side of things, which is rather unfortunate.

Oumi Alliance is Battleship No.12, a Kii-class battleship. Both No.11 and No.12 are not officially named, but post-war literature suggested Suruga and Oumi. Their armament is not particularly clear, with some different schematics on how they should eventually end up. Naturally, nothing comes to fruition since neither were even laid down.

[flint mesa]

G14 is a taihou-similar design also, but larger

Even larger than G15, close to midway

[remote monolith]

<@&472236072743600148> I guess this is the right button for this

[exotic timber]

[flint mesa]

what happen

scale of g14 compare with other IJN ships

[cyan oriole]

isn't wows haku a G15?

G14 is the 50,000 ton carrier

[mental tapir]

https://fixupx.com/nevadabb36/status/1964167203554783661/

Nevadabb36 (@nevadabb36)

found this out but nevadas base design is somehow her in 1945, as compared to her retrofit which is her in the 1930s(???)

**💬 5 🔁 4 ❤️ 45 👁️ 664 **

FixupX · Sep 6, 2025, 3:22 AM

☠️

[maiden citrus]

yup

[brittle glacier]

Found out that Downes and Cassin were burned down during Pearl Harbor, even though they were eventually repaired and returned to service(at least I know Downes was) That still feels like a dick move.

[subtle prawn]

Care to explain what you mean by zero distinction between the two? I was under the impression G14 was a Midway/Malta-esque equivalent whereas G15 is Taiho with some improvements

[zealous vine]

Damnation

[eternal veldt]

Precisely, there's a difference. As far as I'm aware, most English sources tend to mix these two up.

Hakuryuu might even be a product precisely because of that.

[timber linden]

Power move

[manic latch]

I believe we are indeed getting G15 aka Taihou Kai, and it would make sense given she is like sister of Taihou

"IJN carriers were very successful in the early stages of the war but were defeated in June 1942 at Midway, when four carriers were lost. So serious was the loss that the IJN modified its wartime supply plan 'Maru-Go' (Circle Five) to 'Kai-Maru-Go' (Revised Circle Five), intending to reinforce its air strike capability. The "Taihou Kaiclass carriers" were a part of that plan. TAIHO was the only carrier included in 'Maru-Yon' (Circle Four) shipbuilding plan, featuring heavy armor, quite untypical for traditional IJN carriers.

The 'Taihou Kai' class carrier was to be a larger, advanced version of TAIHO. TAIHO's displacement was 34,200 tons (trials); 'Tauho Kai' was to be 35,800 tons and 4 meters longer. TAIHO's flight deck length was 257.5 meters and 'Taihou Kai' 261.5 meters. TAIHO had six 100mm twin AA guns Type 98; 'Taihou Kai' was designed to have eight Type 98s as suggested by TAIHO gun crews.

Another improvement was the revised anti-torpedo protection. Recognizing the development of enemy torpedo power, 'Taihou Kai' had a well-designed under-water protection structure, enough to withstand a 350kg torpedo explosion. Again learning from Midway the electrically powered bucket chain hoists for bombs and torpedoes, connected flight deck and magazine directly. According to Revised Circle Five plan, the 'Taihou Kai' was designed under basic design G-15.

The plan was to build five of these ships"

"No.5021 at Kure Navy Yard

No.5022 at Kawasaki Kobe Yard//

No.5023 at Mitsubishi Nagasaki Yard//

No.5024 at Yokosuka Navy Yard

No.5025 at Kure Navy Yard.

However, the war situation prohibited building such high-quality giant flattops that needed too much tooling. Mass-produced medium carriers, with lesser attack capability but needing less building work were required. Therefore IJN authorities decided to build the UNRYU class prior to 'Taihou Kai' according to the same Revised Circle Five plan. UNRYU's design was based on HIRYU but featured some improvements. With the worsening war situation, the shortage of materials prevented any ship keel lay and abandoned their building"

[untold dagger]

Anyone here know the specifics of G15 to be able to compare it with WOWS Hakuryu ? I've heard her described as a hybrid between G14 & G15 but I just consider her as a G15 exactly

[manic latch]

James

Its literally right above you

[manic latch]

Here

Omg

Hmm

Maybe there is different variants of G-15

[untold dagger]

Because you posted that is why I asked

[manic latch]

Hakuryu gets way too large over this G-15

And she gets more 100mms

So either WG knows a design or variant of G-15 that was larger

Or they mashed G-15 G-14 together

I belive Khaba from wows had similar story as combination of 2 DD design

[subtle prawn]

That's generally what's accepted

[timber linden]

No matter how good of ships the ijn could produce. They could never beat the americans, pilots aircraft and industry.

Taiho Kai would have met the same fate of the unryu. Abandoned target practice for the americans during a carrier raid

[mental tapir]

I suppose one could wonder what the IJN fleet would look like in a "Man in the High Castle" type world

[junior trench]

whatever the hell you want it to with that level of divergence

[mental tapir]

True

[mental parrot]

Man in the high castle you'd get space battleship Yamato by season 5

[timber linden]

I want the flag of freedom

Thanks for turning into the mods, that means I won this internet fight

[mental parrot]

Eh

[timber linden]

If we are going the full space battleship, I rather have the Arcadia

[mental parrot]

Ohh got it

But yeah
Speaking of man in the slop castle
They really fumbled the bag on the Japanese uniforms
Even if they had a decent story early on

Mf
First and second class private with sidearms and swords
They guys with swords have rifle ammo pouches despite having no rifles
For some reason the 2 NCOs on the right are kitted out as grunts with rifles
Not to mention nearly everything except for the leather equipment and the tunics of the guys on the right is trash

[cyan oriole]

isn't khaba mostly project 47?

[supple sandal]

https://x.com/IndexSabot/status/1964976489092596147

Fire, Fire Sabot (@IndexSabot)

X · Sep 8, 2025, 8:57 AM

[manic latch]

Out of fuel yes

I believe Japan used/lost so so so so much fuel during Battle of Midway than they expected

And its effects felt all through the war

[brittle cargo]

Huh, interesting.

[timber linden]

The fact they couldn't replace it was a bigger problem.

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/jgmm-cat-meme-ragebait-cat-think-cat-ponder-gif-7034802297606826390

That's the logic yes

[brittle glacier]

“I sunk your battleship!”
“Lol no.”

[narrow rover]

Japan in WW2 was essentially a display of sunk cost fallacy lmao

[peak mango]

wasn't the battle, was the attacks by USN subs on IJN shipping.

[manic latch]

@peak mango read

Its right there

[peak mango]

And the 'fleet tankers' weren't gone because of use at midway ..

[manic latch]

Read the battle of midway part @peak mango

[peak mango]

Yes, that's one statement by one IJN admiral.

[manic latch]

An Ijn admiral likely knows its own fleet ye

[brittle glacier]

These men didn’t invade the mainland for some fighter jocks to steal all the cred.

[peak mango]

Concerning both loss of ships and resources expenditure. That said, blaming a battle in 1942 for low resources in 44/45 when 'knowing the fleet' still didn't result in adequate protection for their logistics assets .. might be why he was on the losing side.

[brittle glacier]

Such thoughts brought to you by the same admiralty that gave us: “America will come to the negotiating table after Pearl Harbor.”

[manic latch]

Indeed

Ijn refused to build escorts for their merchant ships

[brittle glacier]

Refused or couldn’t?

[manic latch]

Refused

[brittle glacier]

I’d believe either.

[manic latch]

Barely if ever added to their construction program

Remember they were still building fleet carriers when in bad state

So escorts aren't a problem to build

[peak mango]

1 ton of capital ship != 1 ton of escort, escorts are cheaper per unit but cost more in manpower and resources per ton.

[manic latch]

So you are saying US admirals are also wrong on this assessment

[peak mango]

But yes, less capital ship construction might have resulted in more escorts.

[manic latch]

No need to be a contrarian yes

[peak mango]

'Aren't a problem' is the statement. You still need the yard space and drydockage etc.

[manic latch]

Again, if you are choosing to build fleet carriers, you could have build escorts there instead

So you have the space

You choose not to

[peak mango]

Ideally you'd have a mix of replacements for the lost capital ships AND escort construction, and neither one precludes the other in it's entirety.

[manic latch]

Yes Japanese doesn't have that and part

[brittle glacier]

Would have conflicted with their naval strategy, they were never going to be outbuilding America, or the Royal Navy, so they built better(in their eyes at least).

[manic latch]

Which end up never finishing most, barely using ones that managed and stuck to port for lack of fuel because they lost their oil ships with no escorts to US forces ye

So as USN puts it "lack of foresight or great overconfidence"

[brittle glacier]

The IJN in a nutshell.

[peak mango]

The matsu class boats were effectively a DE class, even if too little, too late.

[brittle glacier]

“BEHOLD BIGGEST BATTLESHIP AND TURNIEST FIGHTER!!!!”
Meanwhile, in America:

[peak mango]

Yamamoto was right. "I can run wild for six months... after that, I have no expectation of success"

[brittle glacier]

Yup. “I can beat the shit outta the side of this tank until the turret turns.”

I gotta go watch Midway again.

[peak mango]

tora tora tora 😛

[remote monolith]

Imperial Japan is what happened when you let rigid military command take control of a country's government and dictate its foreign policy

No should or why, just when

[peak mango]

IJN vs IJA ... lol

[brittle glacier]

I was mostly referring to the new one. The casting for that one was immaculate.

[desert agate]

Yes because the USN was solely responsible and no other organisation participated

[brittle glacier]

Imperial Japan never stopped being a shogunate, they just changed Shogunate to “Admiral/General”…

[remote monolith]

There's the Taisho democracy, and in fairness it did restore power to the Emperor to a massive degree

[brittle glacier]

Let’s be honest, others were there, their contributions at sea were negligible.

[desert agate]

The war against Japanese shipping was a combined Allied effort

[desert agate]

Wrong

[remote monolith]

Remember the last time a Japanese emperor was able to directly rule Japan was in the 1300s

And Go-Daigo was deposed violently

[desert agate]

The RAAFs aerial mining operations were arguably the most effective sea port denial operations of the war

[remote monolith]

Meiji ascending returned Japan to a state not seen for seven hundred years

[desert agate]

Almost always operating in conjunction with USN submarines, RAAF Catalina’s would mine ports from hundreds of miles away, at ranges that only the indigenous Australian Catalina variant could achieve, in daring night raids, forcing Japanese transports to wait outside of port while mines were cleared and USN submarines lurking nearby would go in for the kill

[brittle glacier]

Didn’t know about that.

[desert agate]

Obviously not

That isn’t a reason to discount the Allied contribution

[remote monolith]

Either way with Meiji's era, the Emperor got his temporal power back

And that's part of why WWII ended up as it was

[brittle glacier]

I cannot factor in information I do not have.

[peak mango]

I'm not discounting the allied contribution, and feel free to append USN submarines and friends to the previous statement about destroying IJN shipping.

[remote monolith]

Like Hirohito for example isn't a powerless puppet, he definitely has a lot of input in policies and his favor was incredibly important

He was in tacit agreement of military actions and never condemned what happened in Manchuria, Nanking or Java

[desert agate]

Perhaps reading the perspectives of the other Allied combatants when learning about the war would broaden your own understanding of the topic rather than making blanket statements that are obviously wrong

[remote monolith]

Compate this to say emperor Ogimachi

[brittle glacier]

Or you could stop getting offended and inform instead of berate.

[remote monolith]

In 1576 the Emperor couldn't even tell Nobunaga to not march into Kyoto

[brittle glacier]

Makes people like me shut down and lash out.

[desert agate]

I apologise for berating you

[remote monolith]

Neithet could he stop Hideyoshi from taking the role of Kanpaku and ruling as aj unofficial Shogun

[desert agate]

I have a rather hostile reaction to the America-centric view of the Pacific War

Or WW2 in general

[remote monolith]

So, in the end, Japan did change after Meiji, probably for the worse because giving that kind of power to a person worshipped as a deity's progeny will fuck with people

[brittle glacier]

In a lot of instances the US was the lynchpin and foundation of the allied effort, if not militarily then materially. Even Australia, well, especially Australia.

[remote monolith]

But you are right in that many of the samurai clans that were abolished like Tosa, Chosu and Satsuma ended up becoming high ranking naval and army officers anyway

[desert agate]

Materially Australia almost gave more to America in reverse lend lease than it received in raw dollar value

[remote monolith]

It's just that, ultimately the decision making wasn't fully with them, but rests with the Emperor, his family and his closest advisors

[desert agate]

New Zealand actually sent more

I do not disagree that the America was the lynchpin of the Allied effort

[brittle glacier]

Industrial assistance was very crucial to the Australian war industry.

[desert agate]

But it was regardless an Allied effort

[brittle glacier]

Machine tools, engines, etc.

[brittle glacier]

Agreed

[peak mango]

Not discounting anzac contributions at all.

[desert agate]

10’000 Australians did not die in New Guinea to have their efforts brushed away as insignificant to the Allied war effort

[remote monolith]

Also the Emperor is still so important now that the Japanese government is still shielding Hirohito for any kinds of culpability in the war

[desert agate]

While I understand why people use Anzac as a catch all term for Australia and New Zealand it is inaccurate to use the term unless describing the combined army corps that existed between 1914 and 1916

[remote monolith]

The view that Hirohito was a puppet started directly with them, on the belief that the Emperor must nott have his image syllied

[brittle glacier]

I was mostly referring to naval efforts in that statement.

[peak mango]

Yeah, was talking about naval efforts against shipping.

[desert agate]

The RAN had a massive escort force which was invaluable in supporting USN operations

[remote monolith]

Take for example Herbert P. Bix who's made the most comprehensive research about Hirohito's role in the war until now, he can't even access the imperial households records

Because people in the Japanese government are afraid he's going to expose Hirohito's culpability

He's forced to rely on secondary sources and diaries of other figures close to the Emperor

[desert agate]

The Bathurst class kept the troops in New Guinea and by extension the entire South Pacific fed and supplied

[brittle glacier]

Indeed, but at the same time escorts aren’t going to hold up against, say…The Akagi…

[desert agate]

Australian interwar military policy could best be described as hopelessly optimistic and at worst borderline treasonous

And any capability capable of going toe to toe with Japanese capital ships would require interwar investment

[remote monolith]

The irony is that, as much as Tojo was the face of the fascist Japanese government, as far as powers go he was toothless, because he didn't resign his military commission and he actually had superiors in the military, aka he can't do shit to reign in the military because his superiors can countermand him

[desert agate]

The RAN however found itself a niche

[brittle glacier]

Indeed

[desert agate]

It did the dirty work that no one else wanted to do

[brittle glacier]

Everyone found a place, even the Dutch.

[remote monolith]

And outside of that, proximity with the emperor allowed a degree of flexibility and power far in excess of even the imperial cabinet

[desert agate]

This freed up American capability to spearhead the island hopping campaign

[brittle glacier]

A lot of our escorts were busy in the Atlantic, in fact for a while the Pacific fleet had to fight for escorts.

[peak mango]

Find me some tulip girls

[desert agate]

65 corvettes is nearly 2 battleships worth of steel, or 2-3 Essex class carriers

[remote monolith]

Same thing with Kuniaki Koiso who followed Tojo and Kantari Suzuki after

[desert agate]

Imagine if the USN were deprived those ships because it needed to build additional escorts

[peak mango]

And borrow carriers.

[brittle glacier]

Steel does not, sadly, transfer over to shipyards.

[remote monolith]

They're all powerless men used as the face to protect the Emperor

[brittle glacier]

Oop see where you were going there, never mind.

[desert agate]

The argument is hypothetical and illustrates the point of how useful it was for the Allies to have a capable and experienced escort force operating in the South Pacific

[remote monolith]

Either way, the question of Hirohito's exact role is, unfortunately still difficult to answer

Until the Japanese government man up and release incriminating evidence there's always gonna be arguments that Hirohito is a puppet

[brittle glacier]

And battlewagons…as much as they were ultimately of questionable use outside of the island hopping campaign and a few key battles.

[desert agate]

The RAN probably should have had some better peer surface combat capability but fortunately we had a USN to do that job for us while we were able to do the smaller and less glamorous work

[peak mango]

Like I said earlier, yard space for capship production doesn't necessarily equal yard space for escort vessel production.

Or steel, or other resources.

[remote monolith]

Because despite strong suggestion that it's not the case, lack of actual, strong evidence damaged views like Bix's that the Emperor is responsible for much of the Pacific War

Oh right yeah, and also that the Americans themselves helped removing evidence of Hirohito being responsible for WWII in cooperation with the Japanese

[desert agate]

The RAAF found itself with quite a capable anti-ship capability by the end of the war however, Rabaul was rendered a pointless investment thanks to RAAF Beaufighters and USAAF B-24s well before the USN flattened it

[remote monolith]

Since having Hirohito as a figurehead to keep Japan glued was super important in light of the cold war

[desert agate]

[remote monolith]

Also killing a Shinto god is probably not a good idea anyway

Not that the Japanese didn't do it before, just that it'll probably tick off more than a few Japanese if the Americans did it

[peak mango]

Pretty sure the occupational forces were busy enough and didn't need an insurgency.

[brittle glacier]

Nothing says “GFY” like getting multiple tons of bombs to the scalp.

[brittle glacier]

Especially in the face of the neighbors getting their asses handed to them by Soviet backed Rebels.

[remote monolith]

Well theoretically the Americans can just flatten Japan and conduct a full genocide of it's people, which it had the means to

[desert agate]

The Allied occupation of Japan was probably one of the most successful military occupations in history

[remote monolith]

It's just, well, you know the issues with THAT route

[desert agate]

I think Hirohito should have stood trial but that’s mainly out of principle and I fully understand why he wasn’t executed

[remote monolith]

Nah I'd give that to Odoacer's takeover of Rome, or Cyrus' conquest of Babylon and his takeover of Sardis

[desert agate]

I did say one of

But good arguments nonetheless

[remote monolith]

Fair enough

And yeah

From a pragmatic standpoint its understandable why Hirohito stayed alive

Unfortunately it does mean we have to keep dealing with the Japanese governments continuous stubbornness in fully admitting their part in the war

[peak mango]

At this point the only people who care are the ones who are trying to cause their own problems in the world.

[desert agate]

It’s so sad that we got bombed by the Americans us poor innocent Japanese who never bombed anyone else :(

[brittle glacier]

Yeah…

[desert agate]

We fought this really big war in 1941 don’t worry about how it started and don’t ask about the stuff that happened before but we got bombed and that’s sad :(

America is so mean to us why would they do that :(

[brittle glacier]

As much as I don’t give two shits about other peoples’ national pride, historical revisionism pisses me the fuck off.

[desert agate]

Comfort women? Yes we liked making women very comfortable with fine silks and comfy chairs that’s how that works right?

Ah, I see you are a scholar reading about the consensual sex of Nanking

[peak mango]

Sure, but using it as international political needling, 80 years after the fact.

[desert agate]

I don’t think the Koreans are in the wrong for wanting the Japanese government to accept responsibility for its actions 80 years ago

Just because something happened a long time ago doesn’t mean that we should simply ignore and forget about the sins of the past

[peak mango]

Technically a predecessor government.

[desert agate]

Legally speaking Japan has had the same government for 3000 years

[brittle glacier]

I think it’s a cultural thing.

[desert agate]

Since the emperor is a divine being who is not beholden to legal documents such as constitutions and the Japanese government gets its legitimacy from the emperor

Also it’s not as if the Japanese political elite isn’t directly related to the people who did those things in WW2

[peak mango]

Depends on whether you date it from the enactment of the post war constitution or not.

[desert agate]

Shinzo Abe had multiple relatives who were also war criminals

[peak mango]

Like, does france date from Charlemagne or the fifth republic?

[desert agate]

Who also served in the post war government

[desert agate]

The various republics all had different mechanisms of government

The post ww2 constitution of Japan still derives it’s legitimacy from royal ascent in much the same way the British constitution does

Would one argue that Britain dates to 1066, or the statute of Westminster? Or perhaps the Magna Carta?

It’s all part of the same royal family line in any case

[peak mango]

Heh the Brits don't have a codified consitution persay, but the present british government is likely dated to the declaration of rights and other post glorious revolution documents, imho.

[runic ermine]

I mean... what do you expect?

[peak mango]

FWIW this is the Japanese MFA statement and summary of actions on the issue so far.

As the issue of comfort women has been a major diplomatic issue in Japan-ROK relations since the 1990s, Japan has sincerely dealt with it. The issue concerning property and claims between Japan and the ROK was settled completely and finally in 1965 through the Agreement on the Settlement of Problem Concerning Property and Claims and on the Economic Cooperation between Japan and the ROK (see Foreign Minister Kono’s statement). However, from the perspective of facilitating feasible remedies for the former comfort women, the people and the Government of Japan cooperated to establish “Asian Women’s Fund ” in 1995, through which they carried out medical and welfare projects and provided “atonement money” to each former comfort woman in Asian and other countries, including the ROK. In addition, successive Prime Ministers have sent letters expressing their “apology and remorse” to former comfort women. The Government of Japan has made every effort as mentioned above.
(2) Furthermore, as a result of great diplomatic efforts, the Governments of Japan and the ROK confirmed that the issue of comfort women was “resolved finally and irreversibly” with the agreement reached at the Japan-ROK Foreign Ministers’ Meeting in December 2015. The Japanese and ROK leaders also confirmed that they would take responsibility as leaders to implement this agreement, and that they would deal with various issues based on the spirit of this agreement. This agreement was welcomed by the international community, including then Secretary-General of the United Nations Ban Ki-moon and the U.S. Government.

(via https://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/postwar/page22e_000883.html)

[narrow rover]

It's just his maternal grandfather wasn't it?

Nobusuke Kishii, aka "showa no yokai"

[narrow rover]

Part of this was
Compared to Nazi Germany, imperial Japan lasted almost 90 years

By 1945, there was almost no one left alive that remembered the pre-Meiji restoration Japan

So the issue Japan runs into as a society is: where did "good Japan" end and "bad Japan" start?

[narrow rover]

Almost certainly none left

A certain Mitsumasa Yonai... aka the most forgotten, yet potentially one of the most influential, WW2 commanders made sure testimonies and documents were all altered in a way as to clear Hirohito as much as possible

And he... died in 1948 without having said anything public about the process

[narrow rover]

Korea and Japan has the fundamental issue that, despite being geographically close... understanding of each other's history is completely borked

I've seen people trying to connect the Japanese invasion of Korea in the Joseon era and the Japanese empire

Similarly some of the stuff the Japanese ultranationalists (65+ grandfathers that have never left their city let alone country) say is just insane

[peak mango]

Yeah. ROC/PRC too. But anyway, looks like as of Aug 2025, the ROK deems the issue resolved with the 2015 pact. https://www.reuters.com/world/china/south-koreas-lee-intends-retain-comfort-women-pact-with-japan-paper-says-2025-08-21/

[narrow rover]

I mean fundamentally no country wants to be looked as "bowing down" to the other but
We've reached a point where no one cares anymore

The war was 80 years ago. There is less than a few hundred people left alive that remember it.

[peak mango]

Except as international needling points.

[narrow rover]

That too has the issue that no one else really bothers to care

Like, say, I could complain all day about Japan's claim on Dokdo island and 99.9% of the earth will say "what is Dokdo"

And China + Russia + North Korea etc etc are bigger issues now

[peak mango]

Until you mention the EEZ shifts. I mean no one cares about the western phillipine sea islands or the nine dash line either, as abstract issues...

[narrow rover]

Yea

Though issues related to China gets more attention globally

Fundamentally neither Korea nor Japan is willing (or honestly capable) of threatening the other militarily over some halfhearted territory claims or some 80 year old grievances

And there are countries that ARE willing to

[peak mango]

Machias Seal Island lol.

[narrow rover]

So those are bigger issues

[peak mango]

Eagle Union vs Maple Monarchy time...

[narrow rover]

Honestly the recent US vs Canada debacle was many times more dangerous than the worst KR vs JP debacle after WW2

...except that one time we tried to blow up the Japanese red cross in like 1955

[brittle glacier]

What if, thanks to recent changes, the Japanese make a railgun battleship before us? And they just call it the Yamato?

[chilly flower]

While consumption of fuel in individual major battles was something that can be considered, it is a drop in the bucket considering imports and the fluctuating state of the Tanker fleet that was bringing those imports in, which did not begin to suffer debilitating losses until the winter of 1943 and through much of 1944, mostly at the hands of Submarines but also the infrequent, but catastrophically heavy losses to Tankers (in addition to other shipping) from Carrier raids like at Truk and throughout the Central Pacific during the main push there, or the Jan 1945 South China Sea raids, as they otherwise usually did not travel the same vulnerable routes as dry shipping

[chilly flower]

While everyone's contributions should be considered, I find this statement to be peculiar-

While great effort was put in by all air forces in the Solomons and New Guinea against shipping in Rabaul, the vast majority of sinkings were still by submarine throughout the war, and generally did not occur near harbors or in waters that could be mined by aircraft at that point in time, like those in much of the central Pacific, or more crucially the inner circle of imperial waters closer to Japan itself, where a good chunk of kills by US submarines occurred

D = Days on offensive patrol, S = Ships attacked, T = Torpedoes expended during the period

All passages from this

Additionally, from Japanese Naval and Merchant Shipping Losses
During World War II by All Causes:

[subtle prawn]

Oh hi there, Pretz, I haven't seen you in a while

[timber linden]

https://youtu.be/kiiA--IxHbo?si=zegr0nw7G_ZGyz43

[manic latch]

She still has classified files right

Glorious that is

[narrow rover]

Yes Scharnhorst blew holes in her

[junior trench]

Hit when he mistakes convenience for necessity

anyway if you wanna talk about crazy harbor mining operations then you'd should really care more about the, one moment, let me go for poetic justice

Almost always operating in conjunction with USN submarines, USAAC B-29s would mine Japanese Home Islands ports from over 1500 miles away, at ranges that only the indigenous American B-29 could achieve, in daring night raids, forcing Japanese transports to wait outside of port while mines were cleared and USN submarines lurking nearby would go in for the kill

[narrow rover]

I mean the issue is that the US did 95% of the work defeating the Japanese empire

Sure the Chinese took many losses, but you aren't beating the Japanese by dying

The USSR only delivered the finishing blow to an already defeated (the 1st nuke) Japanese

And they probably wouldn't have been involved in the first place had Roosevelt had more faith in the bombs

[timber linden]

I would go with 98%

1.9% for the anzacs and then the rest of allies make up the rest

[narrow rover]

Brits probably could have done a bit better at Burma

[timber linden]

Wasnt burma mostly indians with a few brit units.

[narrow rover]

Sort of because no one wanted to be there

[junior trench]

not even that

the invasion of Manchuria was a botched footnote

it didn't even figure into the Japanese strategic picture

so long as the Soviets weren't touching the Home Islands, they don't matter to Japanese planning

and if they do, well, then they're actually playing into the Japanese plan to bleed their enemies as much as possible in the forlorn hope of a negotiated surrender even at the final hour

it was the prospect of the US being able to use atomic bombs to possibly just bombard Japan into dust without ever setting foot on Japan that resulted in a pretty remarkable confluence of events

which opened the opportunity for the Peace Faction of the government to force a tie vote on the council

which the Emperor subsequently broke in favor of peace

which was met with a failed coup attempt

[junior trench]

most the Soviet "accomplishments" in Manchuria occurred after the surrender had already been announced

and including amazing feats like

checks notes

completely losing track of an entire Army in the backwaters of Manchuria

only for them to show up weeks lates to their objective on a stolen train because they ran out of gas in the middle of nowhere

and

having the advance of whole divisions stopped by a single dug in IJA brigade while the rest pulled back into prepared positions in the Korean mountains

because the Japanese knew a Soviet invasion was coming, they just weren''t sure when

[peak mango]

That sounds ... familiar.

[junior trench]

*it's not hard to pull this kind of thing off, especially when the advancing force is on a shoestring supply line and has no idea wtf is going on ahead of them

see: Kampfgruppe Peiper and multiple German divisions during the Battle of the Bulge being delayed for 20 hours by a force of 22 US recon and arty observer troops

[peak mango]

Thinking more recently.

[junior trench]

k

[rapid cairn]

Tirpitz disguised as a group of buildings to fool enemy reconnaissance aircraft

[supple sandal]

Are the big companies Japan have right now is the result of them being rich from the war

[junior trench]

That is definitely a statement of all time in the context of WW2 Japan

the Mitsubishi factory, for example

[autumn sorrel]

Cashio have its start as selling cigarettes holder bc in post war Japan, wasting Luxury Goods like cigarettes is something really stupid.

Any big Japanese Companies that may have benefit from the war pretty much have all of their factories turn into rubble thanks to US strategic bombing. Any wealth they have accumulated to that point pretty much either gone or turn into ashes. What saved them was the Japan version of Marshall Plan.

That and Mcunter didn’t go hard enough in persecuted every executives that support the Military

[supple sandal]

I only heard one or two thing about MacArthur

Either he is a military genius
or outright dogshit

There are no in-between

[supple sandal]

[timber linden]

Thought it was a French hotel pre dreadnought

[timber linden]

Drouggie Mac had the same problem Patton had....great commander....didn't know when to shut up

[narrow rover]

No they're the ones that recovered the best from the damage

Nintendo for example was just a game card shop in Kyoto at that point

[desert agate]

Douglas MacArthur was a fucking awful commander

The man should have been shot for his actions in the Philippines not promoted

In fact, knowing when to shut up was actually his greatest talent

He was a media man through and through

[narrow rover]

Dmac did well administering Japan
And that was his high point

[desert agate]

An expert in creating narratives that suited him regardless of what the facts of the matter actually were

[brittle glacier]

Most of the famous generals were.

[desert agate]

Yes he did so well that he had multiple black American servicemen executed for rapes which he knew were commited by white soldiers

[brittle glacier]

You had generals throughout the war that did better and faced stiffer challenges but either didn’t or couldn’t take part in the media circus.

Or weren’t politically liked.

[desert agate]

The South Pacific was rather devoid of good generals

On both sides

[narrow rover]

Claire Chennault was good

[desert agate]

Blamey was the worst of both worlds, utterly incapable as a media man and, much like MacArthur, promoted well beyond his competency

[brittle glacier]

Even at lower levels?

[desert agate]

It was the lower level commanders who often took the blame for failures created by MacArthur and Blamey

[brittle glacier]

Yeah…

[desert agate]

Blamey had his strengths, the war in the South Pacific was not one of them

[brittle glacier]

The only good MacArthur ever did was funny nuke thing and get fired.

[desert agate]

The Nukes wouldn't have been necessary had he done his damn job

In Korea that is

[brittle glacier]

We had to atone for failing the KMT somehow.

(This is a joke)

[desert agate]

Shockingly also MacArthurs fault in many ways

[brittle glacier]

I thought it was Truman…

[narrow rover]

KMT collapsing was honestly inevitable but the Korean war was one hell of an oof moment by the USA

[brittle glacier]

I disagree, such a statement implies we started it.

[desert agate]

Dugout Doug taking control of American forces in South East Asia invariably led to the effective abandonment of Chiang Kai Shek

Yes the administration was fundamentally to blame but MacArthur was also the senior commander in the region and had a lot of sway in policy decisions

[desert agate]

The Americans hardly prevented it

[narrow rover]

That was... Stilwell?

And yea the US had no coherent China policy
Partially Roosevelt's fault but
Honestly whose fault isn't it

[desert agate]

Joe Stilwell was recalled from China nearly a year before VJ day

[brittle glacier]

We had the airfields and bombs are cheap. Especially when we can fly above like 99% of AA Fire.

[narrow rover]

US-China relations deteriorated a lot while he was in charge

And quite honestly I don't think a whole lot changes even if the KMT somehow won on the mainland

[brittle glacier]

The CCP not being in power is a good start.

[narrow rover]

Probably less people will die from commie induced famines but
It's not like the Chinese will bend their knee to the US

It probably adds another faction to the cold war at best
Stronger non aligned movement I guess

[desert agate]

When the famine is induced by nationalists instead of communists it's based

[brittle glacier]

Hoe Cheese Minh and Kim Il Sun would have a hard time getting Soviet aid without the CCP’s cooperation.

[narrow rover]

Chiang might still try to insert himself

The guy definitely tried to "retake" Korea after WW2, though by the time that war did end the Japanese had basically removed his armies so well...

[brittle glacier]

Given what the Vietnam Minh did in Vietnam before during and after the war, Mao and the USSR not funnelling them grenades and AKs is a good thing.

[desert agate]

The Viet Minh were most certainly the less brutal combatants in the 2nd and 3rd Indochina wars

I'd much prefer Ho Chi Minhs government to Nguyen Van Thieus

[brittle glacier]

I disagree. They really liked throwing grenades at school children.

“Black April” is a thing.

[desert agate]

The South Vietnamese government was insanely brutal in its repression and massacres

[brittle glacier]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Cong_and_People's_Army_of_Vietnam_use_of_terror_in_the_Vietnam_War

[desert agate]

Ho Chi Minh at the very least professed symbolic ideals that were aligned with at least some form of human rights

His declaration of independence was quite literally the US declaration of independence

[brittle glacier]

Admirable. But kinda overshadowed by what him and his government did after the war.

[desert agate]

And keep in mind it wasn't the South Vietnamese that ended Pol Pot's regime

[desert agate]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_crisis

[brittle glacier]

That was about the only good thing they did, that and kick CCP ass.

[desert agate]

Modern Vietnam is a wealthy post-communist, state capitalist economy transitioning to a democratic system while being aligned with the Western Rules Based Global Order

I'm actually somewhat of a fan

Of all the post-communist nations, Vietnam is arguably doing the best

Excluding nations which were unwillingly part of communist states

[brittle glacier]

I agree. It’s the period between now and when we left that Im not a big fan of.(part of my family comes from Vietnam)

[desert agate]

I really can't see things being any better under the Saigon government

[brittle glacier]

If you want to get into it, the CCP not coming to power would likely prevent a lot of it happening.

[desert agate]

The true good ending for Indochina, letting the French create independent states

Because that went so well every other time they were left to their own devices

[brittle glacier]

That’s fair.

[narrow cloak]

Is there any Kriegsmarine Warship that survived until this day? (Aside U505)

[brittle glacier]

Not really? The Soviets really liked their scrap steel. The closest was Eugen…buuut…well…

https://tenor.com/view/explosion-mushroom-cloud-atomic-bomb-bomb-boom-gif-4464831

[timber linden]

I would say inchon

[timber linden]

There are a couple other u boats, a tender, a S boat, admiral sheer and tirptiz....well she is kind of all over the place

[narrow rover]

Nah that was wayyyyyy too risky

If Incheon failed, the UN and Korean forces would have... basically lost the war

[desert agate]

Douglas MacArthurs high point was avoiding a bullet for destroying the entire FEAF

Utter incompetence from a commander who never failed to disappoint

What kind of coward abandons his men after losing his entire command anyway

“I will return” you never should have left

Incheon wasn’t even successful when you consider what it directly preceded

The greatest and most successful tactical victories the US had ever led directly followed by some of the most crushing strategic defeats the US had ever faced because Dugout Doug was completely convinced that the Chinese wouldn’t get involved and ignored every intelligence assessment that indicated otherwise

[autumn sorrel]

What is your assessment on Diem then?

[autumn sorrel]

Don't forget, he try to denied Wainwright the MoH after leaving him to die. All because he can't stand that Wainwright did what he thought was the best choice for men under his command and surrendered.

[brittle glacier]

Nani?!?!

[narrow rover]

Shinmeiwa GS-1

Probably the most glorious thing Japan designed since the Yamato hit the water

[narrow rover]

Least insane British plan

[remote monolith]

reminder McArthur tried to run over veterans with tanks when they wanted their benefits

[peak mango]

USCGC Eagle.

[narrow rover]

Ex Horst Wessel

[peak mango]

Yup. She's still looking good, too. Arguably it's the training division of the kriegsmarine and not the combat side, but during the war she did have AA batteries.

[narrow rover]

I think she actually did manage to shoot down a plane or two during WW2

[peak mango]

Looks like a couple of her sisters are still afloat too. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorch_Fock_(1933)

[autumn sorrel]

This the best part, nobody told MacArthur to do it. He was ordered to control and maybe disperse the Bonus Army but instead of talking and negotiating with Veteran whose grievance are fully justified, he ordered the Army to mount a cavalry charge with tank support into the camp. Mcunter even ignored Hoover orders of stopping the assault and continue to attack the Veteran camp on the other side of the river in the next days.

[narrow rover]

Yea the Gorch Fock is actually a really good design

Several nations bought copies of her

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, Mcunter literally ignored a Presidential order of not attacking American Veteran. And then he claimed that he didn't receive those orders.

[peak mango]

I'd like to see her as a shipgirl lol.

[narrow rover]

I like to imagine sailboats as guys because ehem "long masts"

[brittle glacier]

If it’s younger than ironclads it’s a twink.

[autumn sorrel]

He later received the Medal of Honor, an honor which had first been proposed early in his captivity, in 1942, but was rejected due to the vehement opposition of General MacArthur, who felt that Corregidor should not have been surrendered. MacArthur did not oppose the renewed proposal in 1945.

[brittle glacier]

Meanwhile, the constitution: this but Jacked as hell

[narrow rover]

[brittle glacier]

I was about to reply…yeahhhhh…that’s FUCKED up, and I thought the Battle of Athens was bad.

[autumn sorrel]

Have you read the part I said about MacArthur attack a protest of US ww1 Veteran that try to ask Congress to guarantee their Bonus?

[peak mango]

Lol she's got engines too.

Also, Tempesta

[narrow rover]

tag:futanari

[peak mango]

Tentacles

[brittle glacier]

Ye i did, got mixed up for a sec. Yeah, fuck MacArthur.

[narrow rover]

[brittle glacier]

That’s just the Sirens…maybe the IronBlood.

[peak mango]

And every Tempesta girl

[remote monolith]

And that's after Eisenhower tried to rein him in

[peak mango]

The US-2 isn't too shabby either. Basically a modern Catalina.

[narrow rover]

Yea but it's not a spruce goose sized seaplane with six mega turbofans and 4 decks

[peak mango]

F2Y is pretty hot too.

[narrow rover]

We need a supersonic seaplane
Said no one ever

[brittle glacier]

Amphibious SR-71

[brittle glacier]

I wish I knew what this meant. 😢

[peak mango]

The sailing frigate faction?

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, USN

They did invest into it so they can have a nuclear strike capable bomber

[brittle glacier]

Wait…WHAT?!?!(sorry I came into the game late and haven’t sat down to play in a while)

[brittle glacier]

Just put Pontoons on an A-1 Skyraider.

[autumn sorrel]

A faction that have ship from the Age of Sail

[brittle glacier]

That’s cool

[peak mango]

Don't forget the P6M too.

[autumn sorrel]

Until you realize one of them are notorious for being a slave ship

[brittle glacier]

Oof

[peak mango]

Halloween events. And yeah all the pirates did naughty things.

[brittle glacier]

Ah

I spent most of my time seriously Im game grinding for and upgrading Musashi, also oathing all of my main fleet.

[peak mango]

Ships from the last event were all from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_the_Grand_Mughal_Fleet

[brittle glacier]

Oh…no…

Worst slavers of all: Ottomans…

[remote monolith]

*Barbary corsairs, under the protection of the Ottomans

Also, Mughals aren't Ottomans

[peak mango]

... to the halls of Tripoli ...

[brittle glacier]

They were effectively Ottoman vassals, no?

[brittle glacier]

Then what were they?

[remote monolith]

Mughals are an entirely different empire with different origins and lineage?

[brittle glacier]

But, like, where?

[remote monolith]

It'll be like calling the Umayyads Mataram

[brittle glacier]

Were they one of the Mongolian offshoot empires?

[remote monolith]

And the Ottomans notably aren't that, and neither do the Mughals

[brittle glacier]

This is going way over my head.

[peak mango]

Mughals had nothing to do with the Barbary pirates.

[remote monolith]

The Mughals were closer to the Timurids than Mongols, and while they do have Mongol heritages by that point they're closer to Turko-Persians. The Ottomans are wholly Turkic and basically has literally nothing to do with Mongols, being entirely separate culture

Also ones based in India and the other is restricted to Anatolia, Southern Europe and the Middle East so there's that

There was an entire other empire between them

[brittle glacier]

This all so enlightening. My historical knowledge is focused on the period of time when dive bombing naval warships was a thing.(which does include Operation Praying Mantis)

[remote monolith]

All good, since this channel is mostly modern history anyway

Not a lot of people here care about say, Myriokephalon or Magnesia

[spring briar]

we need to go back to the old days of this channel

more naval history

[remote monolith]

If it's antiquity naval history, sure

There need to be more discussion about Artemisium, Salamis or Naupaktos

[spring briar]

aye

[peak mango]

Well we were just talking about the raid on the ganj-i-sawai

Which isn't antiquity, really

[remote monolith]

That's a start sure, but still wr can go older than that

Back to the era when the moat advanced tactics boils down to "get in position and ram the bastard in front of you really hard"

[peak mango]

Sure. Can't wait to see the Zheng He fleet ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_treasure_voyages

[peak mango]

Heh sure but not a lot of named vessels at that point.

[remote monolith]

I guess ancient people weren't big on naming ships

[peak mango]

Otoh ... This discussion has a bunch of dead links I should investigate later. https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/43145/were-ancient-ships-named

[remote monolith]

Aah so the tradition may have emerged somewhat later

[cyan oriole]

I mean, could be an Iachino situation where an admiral makes up bullshit to cover his ass

[cyan oriole]

why not both

[cyan oriole]

and luckily the Chinese were doing the real dirty work of fighting more than half of the entire japanese army

second in contribution to the pacific war effort is probably china, not britain or australia or the dutch

for all your focus on the "allied war effort", you missed that contribution

[cyan oriole]

yeah pretty much, the Soviets just mopped up weakened Japanese forces with a surprise attack while swooping in to capture territory and influence

the forces in manchuria had been fighting the Chinese for 8 years and had also been continually having units pulled away to help fight in the Pacific, so it's hard to even call them a real fighting force anymore

I would say that the contributions for the pacific war are: 80% USA, 8% china, 5% britain, 5% australia/nz, 2% "other" (NL, france, USSR, filipino guerillas, etc)

[cyan oriole]

yeah, if you looked solely at his contributions to the Japanese war effort in 1941, you would be right in assuming him an enemy agent

[junior trench]

... This is a joke, right?

You're not actually that fucking delusional, right?

Also nice job citing the pop history version of the "Buddhist crisis"

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-asian-studies/article/secular-state-for-a-religious-nation-the-republic-of-vietnam-and-religious-nationalism-19461963/6686A381A12183648E76430BC646BC85

Ngô Đình Diệm crushed Cao Đài and Hòa Hảo dissidents because they refused to give up their administrative and military autonomy. But Saigon did not repress religions altogether. It promoted spirituality as a core value of the Republic of Vietnam.

In fact, Ngô Đình Diệm attempted to enshrine the importance of religions to the Vietnamese nation in a similar fashion to what Sukarno, his Indonesian counterpart, had accomplished in the Republic of Indonesia. Sukarno proclaimed that faith in God was one of the panca sila’s five principles at the core of Indonesian nationalism. He did not declare Islam as a state religion, nor did Ngô Đình Diệm make Catholicism or Buddhism Vietnam's national religion. The political formula Diệm used to promote this religious diversity, however, was entirely different. Unlike Jakarta, Saigon did not create a Ministry of Religious Affairs. It did not collaborate with communists either. In fact, the Republic of Vietnam never attempted to guide or control all religious activities, because it considered that religions remained a private affair. Such an authoritarian state let religions remain free from state control— at least initially—because of one central assumption of the Republic's Personalist Revolution: the idea that spirituality would spontaneously oppose communist atheism. This fragile political formula, of praising religion as a central value of non-communist nationalism without any precise policy, encouraged the reinforcement of a religious consciousness that increasingly challenged the Republic itself.

Because, to be clear, the issue was that Buddhist nationalist movements were basically operating as a state within a state as a law and military unto their own, which isn't a state of affairs any nation tolerates

(see Black September in Jordan as an example of why)

That western press didn't understand this and just printed headlines chaser articles about monks burning themselves is pretty emblematic of the era

And if you want to spice it up even more, both organizations were also leftovers from Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere operations, and were also weaponized by the Vichy French prior to Japanese occupation

So, yeah, shockingly they weren't very well liked in the halls of power, at least beyond their usefulness to the North as destabilizing agents

Tl;Dr, as it turns out, Buddhism isn't actually all just fuzzy wuzzy warm and welcoming stuff, and the Japanese Buddhist warrior monks trying to make their own fiefdoms isn't as weird and wild a thing as many people think

(also the Catholics weren't a monolith in many senses of the word, but I've already gone on for quite a while)

[cyan oriole]

don't worry, it's just ragebait

some people on this channel love to be contrarians to provoke reactions

[brittle glacier]

Black April is a prime example of why the Viet Minh were not the best option, as per like, 99% of Communist parties.

[grave ravine]

I could talk a lot about Magnesia

Hadn't heard of Myriokephalon though

Not really familiar with the Byzantine Seljuk wars

[autumn sorrel]

You might be right, if it was 1955. But once Diem break those orgs, he turn to blatant favoritism toward his Family and Catholicism. 1963 Crisis was the direct result of yrs of buildup resentment toward Diem’s nepotism.

[autumn sorrel]

Are you trying to use extreme version of Shinto Buddhism which was considered too extreme to somehow equate Vietnam Buddhism as power hungry and aggressive?

Not only that, did you just group Cao Dai(a local religion) and Hoa hoa(an local offshoot of Buddhism) with mainstream Vietnam Buddhism?

[supple sandal]

Even more rage bait for a lil bit of rage bait

It's funny to open Wikipedia and see all Vietnamese is called Nguyen

[remote monolith]

Byzantine got BTFOd so hard there it's not even funny

Like at Manzikert at least it's because Romanos Diogenes got straight up betrayed and a noble disappeared with close to 30k soldiers

Myriokephalon basically had the entire arny just crushed through ambush

[desert agate]

I wasn't discussing CBI I was discussing PTO

More than happy to discuss CBI, but it's not really part of the point I was trying to make

[desert agate]

I'm actually not one of those people lol

[desert agate]

Any discussion about PTO that places Britain above Australia is blatantly wrong

[peak mango]

when?

[narrow rover]

It's actually the single most used family name in the world lol

[narrow rover]

Thing with China is that yes they were taking many losses and holding on better than expected but they weren't really capable of draining the Japanese and pushing them back to a point of surrender like the Americans did

[supple sandal]

to the words of someone in this channel

"You arent exactly beating the Japanese by dying"

[narrow rover]

Had the war continued until... IDK, 1948? China should have been (alongside US help) been able to push the Japanese out of the mainland, but at that point...

[desert agate]

The involvement of the Chinese wouldn't have changed the outcome of WW2

The Japanese deployed as many troops as they could to the Pacific without crippling their supply lines

[supple sandal]

they are pretty involved tho?

[desert agate]

The Kwantung Army was relatively self sufficient with supplies getting a lot of its equipment built in factories on the Asian mainland

There was basically no possibility for more troops being deployed into the PTO even if troops were available

[narrow rover]

Also
China suffers from Vichy France like issues
There were a whole bunch of Chinese collaborators, and the Sino Japanese war involved a fuckload of Chinese on Chinese violence... which most certainly affected US and British perception

Hence:

[desert agate]

The only major change would be more planes for the Allies to shoot down

And even then, that wouldn't have been a major factor until later in the war since the IJA didn't want its planes anywhere near navy operations

The IJN didn't really deploy land based fighters to CBI after 1941

[narrow rover]

The China front is a pretty good case study on human psychology though

Because the IJA included a huge chunk of people that were begging to experience some violence but never actually had the chance to dish out said violence

Stories of... people lining up to be PoW executioners

Or just the usual beating the locals up

[grave ravine]

Neat

Do you have any suggestions about books or articles about the Seljuk wars?

[peak mango]

Yeah basically a 3+ way fight

[narrow rover]

Yea, nationalists and commies are the usual two factions that get brought up but there were also non aligned guerrillas fighting the Japanese behind the lines, straight up bandits, and a certain collaborator that tried to establish an independent state in Yuannan

Which we know barely anything about sadly

[peak mango]

Sorry, bad bad joke. Nguyen can be pronounced 'when'.

[remote monolith]

not specifically about the Byzantine-Arab/Seljuk conflicts, but there are a few ones that covers the entire period like the Byzantines by John Criticos, A Companion to Byzantium series, and Cambridge History of the Byzantine Empire are good starts

De Administrado Imperio and the Alexiad are good reads too

[peak mango]

If you're into video/podcasts, 'Fall of Civilizations' is excellent. https://www.youtube.com/@FallofCivilizations

[remote monolith]

since they offer rare first person perspective from people close to the Emperor, and the Emperor himself (notably they reveal the fact that Byzantium are extremely shameless at their duplicity and double-dealings)

Should they ever require and demand, whether they be Chazars, or Turks, or again Russians, or any other nation of the northerners and Scythians, as frequently happens, that some of the imperial vesture or diadems or state robes should be sent to them in return for some service or office performed by them, then thus you shall excuse yourself: «These robes of state and the diadems, which you call 'kamelaukia', were not fashioned by men, nor by human arts devised or elaborated, but, as we find it written in secret stories of old history, when God made emperor the former Constantine the great, who was the first Christian emperor, He sent him these robes of state by the hand of His angel, and the diadems which you call 'kamelaukia', and charged him to lay them in the great and holy church of God, which, after the name of that very wisdom which is the property of God, is called St. Sophia; and not to clothe himself in them every day, but only when it is a great public festival of the Lord. And so by God's command he laid them up, and they hang above the holy table in the sanctuary of this same church, and are for the ornament of the church. And the rest of the imperial vestments and cloaks lie spread out upon this holy table.

De Administrado Imperio, page 67

[peak mango]

Pretty much. All sides.

[grave ravine]

Im always dubious about youtube videos, especially ones that dont clearly display sources

[remote monolith]

the next page also has Constantine VII advising his son to say this if a barbarian kingdom wants to marry a Byzantine princess: "Sorry, Constantine I told us that's not allowed and we'll get cursed by Christ if we do that. Also, the last Emperor who did marry off a princess is an idiot and he got cursed by lightning bolt, so he was never a true Emperor."

[grave ravine]

primary sources are always interesting, but I really don't have the level of knowledge necessary to really get everything from those, do you have any suggestions for good annotated versions?

[remote monolith]

For one of the emperors, Leo by name, who also married a wife from Chazaria, out of his folly and rashness took up one of these diadems when no festival of the Lord was toward, and without the approval of the patriarch put it about his head. And straightway a carbuncle came forth upon his forehead so that in torment at the pains of it he evilly departed his evil life, and ran upon death untimely. And, this rash act being summarily avenged, thereafter a rule was made, that when he is about to be crowned the emperor must first swear and give surety that he will neither do nor conceive anything against what has been ordained and kept from ancient times, and then may he be crowned by the patriarch and perform and execute the rites appropriate to the established festival.

[grave ravine]

something akin to say the Landmark series

[remote monolith]

they're very easy read, De Administrado is literally just a manual on how to govern, so its very dry and factual with the informations available to the emperor at the time

[peak mango]

Extensively footnoted in the descriptions.

[remote monolith]

its more or less just "son do this and don't fuck up ok?"

both are also available online for free

[peak mango]

Example from the Roman Britain episode. Plus more if you pick up the book.

[remote monolith]

there's also Liutprand of Cremona's writing The Embassy to Constantinople and Other Writings that reveals about 10th century Byzantine courts and their diplomacy (he hates the Byzantines)

[cyan oriole]

yeah, that's why I said the americans contributed 10x more than the chinese

wearing down the japanese does count for something at least

lots and lots of resources were committed to the chinese front with basically nothing to show

[junior trench]

Uh....

Sort of?

It's honestly kind of embarrassing how much the IJA did with so little in the C part of the CBI

[autumn sorrel]

Still can’t wrap my head around the fact that KMT Chinese “division” fighting strength is worse than a IJA regulars regiment.

[timber linden]

Looks outside window.....please continue

[supple sandal]

https://x.com/T_90AK/status/1965950053618692573

T-90K (@T_90AK)

Horse drawn Renault Tank during the Spanish Civil War.

X · Sep 11, 2025, 1:26 AM

[narrow rover]

To be fair the China front is understudied

We're basically at a point where we're reading Chiangs diary and accepting it as fact

Japanese scholarship has been much better at this, including the recent scholarship on collaborator regimes and the CCPs role in north China but
There are topics that no sane researcher wants to touch

Both politically and "where info"

And where translation

[remote monolith]

Also to be completely fair a vig part of KMT divisions were former warlord troops with catastrophically poor logistics and bookkeeping

[narrow rover]

Hence it's so hard to determine how many troops they had at any given moment

I think I've seen some estimates claim the Japanese + collaborators actually outnumbered the KMT force

[remote monolith]

points to Zhang Zhongchang freely admitting he didn't even know how many men he actually has

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nstaj1mHFHU

[narrow rover]

The nation of Japan as a whole went wrong

[zealous vine]

Too invested in China smh

[subtle prawn]

@eternal veldt I've passed by some people as well as Drach saying the IJN planned on using twin-engined aircraft on G14, I was wondering if that's true or not

[narrow rover]

Well that and "invade indochina"

[chilly flower]

Initially a specification planned in 1940, but it was rendered unnecessary once the Homare engine was ready for production for new aircraft designs (although it was quite troublesome), chiefly the A7M, B7A, and stillborn "Wakusei"
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/japanese-twin-engine-folding-wing-carrier-aircraf.32388

According to this document, the specification of this aircraft was decided by Dr.Masao Yamana(Kugisho, Suisei designer).

Weight : 8ton, Length : 12.3m, Span : 18m(9m), Height : 3.5m
Maximum speed : 250kt(463km/h)/4000m, Range : 900nm(1666km)(attack),1700nm(3148km)(reconnaissance)
Torpedo : 800kg or Bomb : 1000kg
Engine : same as Suisei?(seems to be liquid cooling engine)```

```The twin engine carrier bomber(unified attack aircraft and dive bomber) discussed here was planned in 1940.
When planning a high-performance dive bomber more than 13-shi dive bomber Suisei, there was a limit in the single-engine aircraft.
Then twin-engine attack aircraft/dive bomber and large aircraft carrier were planned.
But Nakajima succeeded to develop high performance Homare engine, neccesity of twin engine carrier bomber disappeared.```

Bears a resemblance to the Tupolev SB except for the twin tail

[eternal veldt]

Nothing more to add, Pretz is spot on.

In fact, most information pertaining to this series comes from that book.

[autumn sorrel]

Ok, now my interest is piqued. Is there an English version online to buy or download?

[eternal veldt]

No. Japanese magazines are almost never localised or rather reissued.

I broke bank to get my hands on a Takao issue before and Im not inclined to ever do it again.

[narrow rover]

Heinkelocopter

[autumn sorrel]

You know, not provide source is a major crime

[narrow rover]

https://x.com/Konwashi_2?t=3tdwJ2EXewGD6-U_wm58sg&s=09

帝政ミサギ (@Konwashi_2) on X

飛行船創作、近未来創作で架空戦記/メカ、兵器擬人化などで色々描いてる変な鳥。
亡命政府(仮)→https://t.co/FRW25gLNlU
Skeb→https://t.co/Sn52fkDiSF

X

This artist

[autumn sorrel]

Oh, them

I already follow them for quite a while now, no wonder why I feel the style so familiar

[narrow rover]

Yea
Fella did a "what if the Japanese empire was OP" series today XD

The Heinkelocopter was too cursed not to post

[runic ermine]

That's just Kancolle

[narrow rover]

Kancolle was "what if the Japanese empire was cute anime woman"

[cinder escarp]

Not just the investment in China, the fact that it taught them so many bad lessons on logistics and warfare.

The fight against the disorganized and largely pre-industrial Chinese over an entire continent warped their thinking in ways that badly hurt them.

Case in point: essentially pausing armored vehicle development for several years so better fund horse calvary. Because Horses can live off the land (easing logistics everywhere) and go into crazy terrain without roads, important for lots of valleys, mountains, and other places they were fighting the Chinese.

[narrow rover]

Should have picked on Russia instead smh

[remote flame]

the IJA wanted that, but they lost Khalkhin Gol

[narrow rover]

Should have tried again

It wasn't even the IJA and more like
A certain colonel Tsuji

Tsuji Masanobu... war criminal, later potential CIA recruit, somehow got himself elected to the Japanese parliament postwar(!!!), went MIA somewhere in Burma

Dude was an IRL bond villain, unfortunately rather unknown

[junior trench]

Those indictments were basically a fast track ticket into the Japanese government back then

[narrow rover]

Not denying there were many of those sorts in the Japanese government in the 50s but
Tsuji was something else

He would have most likely not survived the US occupation had he been in Japan in the immediate postwar era but
He was employed by the Chinese(!!!) intelligence, and just chilled there until 1949
At which point most war crimes trials were over and no one bothered to put him in jail I guess

Masaharu Honma pretty much got blamed for everything Tsuji did

If I got a nickel every time that happened to a Japanese general I'd probably have... 2 nickels, which is not much

[narrow rover]

On the topic of Japan in WW2

Turtelian nonsense

[autumn sorrel]

They can't, the entire Khalkhin Gol campaign was to gauge the Russian position and response. Even when the Russian suffered heavier lost in AFV and wounded, the percentage of combat death and equipment lost still heavily skewed toward Russian favor. IJA literally lost nearly entire Corp worth of force for nothing. Even in the worst day of USSR in Europe, they still maintain enough force in the Far East to deter IJA from ever thinking of exploiting anything.

[narrow rover]

I know, I'm just joking

[autumn sorrel]

Not to mention, War in China is already in full swing, even if KMT are a bunch of useless buffoon when it come to fighting, the fact that KMT Army and Communist Force still alive mean that IJA have to dedicate a large number of garrison troop to China just to make sure their supply lines aren't completely kaput.

Funny, we often joke about USSR have bad motorized supply system in ww2, IJA is even worse than that.

[remote monolith]

and the Wehrmacht

no seriously by 1943 the Heer is the second least mechanized and motorized armed force in WWII, just in front of Japan

[narrow rover]

Which is insane to think about

[junior trench]

I mean

the USSR's motorized supply system was fine

it just wasn't the USSR's

[grave ravine]

fun fact of the day, Canada built more trucks during WW2 than the USSR and Nazi Germany combined

[narrow rover]

Eastern front really was two schizophrenics bashing each other with bedpans lmao

[autumn sorrel]

I was alluding to pre Lend Lease system. It have certain good thing like GAZ Artillery tractor and Zis truck but the production was never enough.

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah but they were able to capture large amounts of French trucks and their factory. Heer motorization might be shit but their system is way better than IJA.

Well, except the part when captured vehicles turn into a problem in itself once the maintenance date go up

[runic ermine]

I got this yesterday

[zealous vine]

Were the Japanese more acceptable of 6 twin designs over 4 triples?

[eternal veldt]

Depends on who you ask.

Hiraga has a hateboner against triples early onwards, mainly due to following the practices of RN half salvos that require two guns at different elevations to bracket a target.

He also has a hateboner against odd-numbered barrel counts, and favoured usually for 10 guns

Which usually doesn't leave much room for imagination when it comes to the arrangement of turrets.

[narrow rover]

Hiraga was a weird guy

Yes that is a Fuso

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1967022605329654156

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

After being hit by Japanese anti-aircraft fire during a patrol, a PV-1 Ventura lost so much hydraulic fluid that the flaps would not function. The crew gave the crippled plane a lifesaving transfusion by pouring their coffee and orange juice into the hydraulic system. The Ventura managed to land with wheels and flaps down.
︀︀#SeaStorySaturday

**💬 4 🔁 40 ❤️ 229 👁️ 7.7K **

FxTwitter · Sep 14, 2025, 12:28 AM

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAlzz3CwSn0

[desert agate]

I will forever be amused that the RAAF is a more capable force than it's 'parent' in the RAF

[subtle prawn]

I'm going to guess that the Aussies generally make less bone-headed decisions than the British

[desert agate]

The only real potential procurement headache for the RAAF at the minute is F/A-XX

The RAAF is a smaller force than the RAF but it has a considerably superior AWACs force and a far more developed EW force

The MQ-28 is also going to prove a dramatic force multiplier for the RAAF when that rolls off the line

[subtle prawn]

I saw a recommendation suggesting the RAF go back to the original planned purchase of 5 AEW&C aircraft, but I'm not sure if the government will actually do it

[desert agate]

That would require the British to spend money on their military

An unacceptable decision for the British taxpayer

[subtle prawn]

Also saw a pledge to purchase 12 nuclear-powered subs, but that seemed a bit ambitious and unrealistic to me

[shrewd pecan]

so

likely not happening

[desert agate]

Pillar 1 of AUKUS is not at risk and those claiming it is are scaremongering

[subtle prawn]

Eh, that's not what I'm thinking of, I'm more doubting the willingness of the British government to actually go through with purchasing 12 SSN-AUKUS submarines

[shrewd pecan]

the Aussies are probably gonna have more of a budget to work with than the Brits in the long run I'm ngl

[desert agate]

12 submarines would be the bare minimum for the RN submarine force
As it stands the force is wholly unsustainable and far too small for its mission set

[subtle prawn]

Sure must be nice having governments that make less stupid military procurement decisions

[desert agate]

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/the-sad-state-of-royal-navy-submarine-capability-and-the-implications-for-australia/

[shrewd pecan]

the US doesn't even have budgetary issues and its making terrible procurement decisions left and right

at a minimum the UK has the excuse of shitty budget and economic conditions

[subtle prawn]

I was thinking of the Aussies when I said that

[shrewd pecan]

[desert agate]

The Australian government isn't strictly making good decisions but more correcting for the bad decisions made 30 years ago

Discussions about nuclear submarines should have been had in 2008
The Anzac replacement should have been discussed in 2003

The actual viability of the RANs DDG force should have been discussed in 2013

[subtle prawn]

Anyways, I'm envious of anybody with a government that doesn't make a stink out of defence procurement

[desert agate]

Hopefully it isn't too little too late

But the RAN will come out of the next decade with a larger, and excluding carrier capability, a more capable force than the Royal Navy, which is less a compliment to the RAN and more an indictment on the RN

Assuming of course that estimates on a Taiwan strait crisis occuring in the next 5 years don't come true

[narrow rover]

Sure hope not

The economy of the Asia region will be obliterated if that happened

[desert agate]

Economics is probably the least of your concerns

[junior trench]

the Europhile period and it's consequences were a disaster for the Australian military

humu

[desert agate]

But guys the Europeans will give us better contracts

[junior trench]

doesn't read the part of the contract about whether you're allowed to stockpile spare parts

[timber linden]

https://youtu.be/YvapMbRuK2Q?si=zWHmYjQ9wZOMkiL2

Talk about throwing everything at the americans

[desert agate]

Hey Airbus can we get some new engines because all ours ingested ash and need complete rebuilds which we aren't allowed to do :)

Oh you didn't build enough engines because you weren't expecting such high levels of engine wear in Australian flying conditions compared to European conditions?

Okay that's fine I guess we'll just have to let people die in the greatest bushfires in this countries history sounds great

At least the Navy could do its job

Well that is the ships that weren't built by Navantia because both Canberra's were in and out of action during the Black Summer fires thanks to propulsion failures

Would have been nice to have some extra sea lift capacity during the whole evacuating entire towns before they burn down thing

But guys this European platform will be different I swear

[autumn sorrel]

This is why I never like modern military contract orders. Company really don't like the buyer to self maintain the equipment that they themselves spend billion to buy.

[narrow rover]

I mean... that was Japan's entire WW2 strat

Throw the kitchen sink at the Americans and hope they're too tired to fight on

[desert agate]

It's mostly a European thing

American contracts are restrictive in different ways, but generally they're not as strict with parts and the like

South Korea has proven to be a generally relaxed export partner to

It will be interesting to see how the Japanese handle the Mogami export

[narrow rover]

https://youtu.be/YQoayhIzKwU?si=X73LsCBplTZ3vfrD

China before Deng
If you're getting North Korea vibes, you're probably right...

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, if they already pass the "no selling military hardware" rule, selling you spare parts is quite easy. Also, RAN will be their first major foreign buyer, I doubt that the Japanese will do something that might sour future contract.

Although, don't expect SK level of bonus sweet point. I supposed that helping with an upgraded maintenance facility in Australia is not off the book.

[desert agate]

Uh, buddy

The ships are being built in Perth

The government recently invested billions into revamping the shipyards and Mitsubishi is already on site providing expertise

It’s not an upgraded maintenance facility it’s a domestic Australian supply chain

One of the major requirements of SEA3000 and its parent document in the Surface Fleet Review was that the first 3 ships would be built overseas while the remaining 9 would be built at the Australian Marine Complex in Henderson Western Australia, which would be upgraded and have its business contracts reworked to streamline construction

The issue is simply with a lack of experience on the part of the Japanese in working with export customers

The RAN likewise has never worked with Mitsubishi before

Obviously neither side is going to sabotage the program but an inexperienced exporter is always going to introduce considerable risk to a program

Bureaucracy will need to be established, laws written and rewritten, regulations created and contracts devised
Long term sustainment will need to be understood
The way the Japanese do domestic acquisition is not the same as how the RAN works

These are all factors among countless more that will need to be worked out before steel is even cut

[autumn sorrel]

It sound like a full blown long term ship building program. So it should be the Austal shipyard, right?

But why Henderson? Would it be more logical to choose Williamstown where ANZAC class was built, bc they already have experience with frigate size ship?

[desert agate]

It is not Austal. Austal specialises in aluminium hulls and is far too busy building ferries and LCS to get involved with the Mogami program
It’s Australian Marine Complex which is next door

Williamstown built the Anzacs 30+ years ago
The people who built them have either left the workforce entirely or moved up the ladder to the point where their knowledge isn’t particularly valuable

The Surface Fleet Review recommended that government adopt a Continuous Naval Shipbuilding and Sustainment Enterprise. Previous shipbuilding programs have basically built an entire shipbuilding industry to build a class of ship, and then watched it die off for 30 years, wasting that investment, creating inefficiencies and defeating the whole purpose of building domestically

The new model is one where both major shipyards, Osborne and Henderson will have constant orders in order to keep experience and keep the industry alive

Henderson keep in mind has just recently completed the Anzac class mid life upgrade, it’s been building the Cape Class patrol boat (Austal) and the Arafura class, the order of which was recently cut in half

It’s also building the Choules replacement and the new landing craft

[autumn sorrel]

I see, so it is because the current workforce already have experiences overhauled ANZAC hull and the facility there can be expand further.

[autumn sorrel]

But even this requires more orders after Mogami, no? Even if you take it slow and laid down 3 ships at a time, it still going to be just over 10yrs of working, I imagine that after Mogami building is finished, RAN will order something else to keep the shipyard working, yes?

[desert agate]

That's the intent yes

The Mogamis are going to be rushed through as quickly as possible, but once the Mogamis are built then there will be other platforms to build or replace, the yard effectively already has orders for after Mogami regardless

[junior trench]

"the product is the product, stop asking for modifications for the sake of small production runs"
vs
"oh yes, dear customer, we'll make whatever changes you may desire*"
(warning support for altered product not guaranteed)

[autumn sorrel]

For replacement for ANZAC or further Mogami?

[desert agate]

The Mogami class is the Anzac replacement

[autumn sorrel]

So more Mogami orders

[narrow rover]

Mogameme

Australian defense blogs had a field day because they realized the Mogamis are a bit made of paper

Also this is Japan's first warship export since they sold Ninghai to China in the 1930s

[ashen furnace]

I wonder if the US Navy should try ordering some Mogamis, considering the state the constellation class program is in

[desert agate]

The US Navy doesn't really have a doctrinal need for a tier 2 surface combatant that the RAN needs

[twilit geyser]

Also while being delayed, there really isn't much to go off from since the Constellation and the rest of her class are still early on in construction or haven't even started construction at all. Opting for Mogamis while they're building the Connies will only result in more money being spent at the same time.

[narrow rover]

Also the Mogami is
Like I said a bit made of paper
It doesn't fit US standards

[timber linden]

Us needs to remember how to build thing again

[remote monolith]

Found in an Indonesian history text book I happen to browse

Regarding ocean voyages and exploration, there is an interesting opinion from Menzies, a British naval officer. He asserted that the first to successfully circumnavigate the globe was a Chinese fleet led by Commander Zheng He (Cheng Ho) in 1421. Zheng He was a trusted eunuch of the Ming Dynasty Chinese Emperor Zhu Di or Yong Le. Menzies explained that Zheng He and his fleet sailed around the world using ancient maps made by Chinese cartographers, as well as maps such as those by Fra Mauro (an Italian) and Piri Reis (a Turkish).

I fucking swear I'm going to blow my brains out

I have to teach crap like this on my classes daily

At least I have the freedom to call out that they are indeed bullshit

[autumn sorrel]

Huh?

Since when Indonesian teach Chinese textbook history?

[remote monolith]

Idfk some random ass hat put this in a history textbook that's now proudly shown in the Ministry of Education's website

[manic latch]

Hmm

You might get prestige problems

"Did we stoop so low that now we have to order warships from others?"

[remote monolith]

Loke overall the Indonesian history curriculum is what would you call horse shit

It tends to repeat the myth that Europeans didn't know the world was round, it still teaches a disproved theory about how colonization started, it actually spread around a fucking Turkish propaganda movie of all things

And it's just overall highly nationalistic and apologetic

[manic latch]

Its called soft power

[autumn sorrel]

I actually really want them to explain how essentially an enlarge flat bottom junk can cross the Pacific

[manic latch]

And when you want to deepen your influence and cooperation you also touch on things like education where future youth will have more favorable view of said nation

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, Constellations is essentially a modified FREMM

[manic latch]

More importantly

Its Americanized Fremm

So not even a license production

[remote monolith]

They aint fucking understanding that

Also kremlin kinda missed the point and is rambling about nothing honestly

The textbook is pretty transparently written by someone who basically just parrot whatever they read on the internet without due diligence

[manic latch]

Bruh hooww

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies

Isn't this guy responsible

• Ain't you guys are making educational corporations with China

[remote monolith]

Oh you meant Menzies, not the textbook, Menzies is just a nutjob

[manic latch]

Ye

But things that written is very similar with what Menzies said

[autumn sorrel]

Bruh, he is one of the Atlantis guy?

[remote monolith]

Also nope, no collaborations like that here, it's just that most of the people writing history books for Indonesia n curriculum isn't actually someone with even cursory knowledge of history

[manic latch]

"1421: The Year China Discovered the World, in which he asserts that the fleets of Chinese Admiral Zheng He visited the Americas prior to European explorer Christopher Columbus in 1492, and that the same fleet circumnavigated the globe a century before the expedition of Ferdinand Magellan'

[autumn sorrel]

Like, I like Atlantis myth and all but even I can see that Plato entire whole point about Atlantis was about a moral story, not a literal place

[remote monolith]

Like they're mostly written by tired old bureaucrats and mostly regurgitate older books because the curriculum itself is dogshit and never changing anything

While simultaneously adding random stuff like the one above, as long as it serves the purpose of owning the Westoids

That's not even getting to the insinua that Native Indonesian kingdoms were always harmonious and never waged war with each other and Imperialism was a concept never practiced by natives

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, it is possible if the Chinese use certain route but even Magellan fleet have to rely on some of Spanish outpost in South America before move into the Pacific. Zheng He fleet literally have so many mouth to feed that it was a miracle that they were able to reach Africa.

[manic latch]

Ah ok, because Zheng Ze is also symbolism of Belt and Road for China, so I thought China using its influence over bureaucrats of education of Indoneisa by highlighting the importance of Zheng Zhe might be using his image to improve the opinion of Chinese on Indonesian youth

Maybe I thought too hard about it

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah right, so how do they explain the part where Majapahit use Mongol Navy to get rid of their rival and later betrayed the Mongol themselves?

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, I don't to talk bad about Vietnam historical education but it barely any better than Indonesia.

[remote monolith]

Dawg Indonesian youths mostly couldn't even point out who's the longest serving president out of the eight, they ain't understanding anything about China unless I chew it into simple molecules and spitting it out for em

Like I became one of the more memorable history teachers where I worked at simply because I could boil down the shitshow that is the Chinese Revolution into something that they can actually wrap their heads around

[remote monolith]

Oh they don't teach this part

No seriously it's not part of the curriculum

It fell into my own discretion

Oh also the new government just gutted History as a subject by removing world history entirely so I'm extra pissed off

[autumn sorrel]

Man, I never known that I need to feel grateful that Vietnam Historical book are extremely Western lover to the point we both learn World/Western history and Chinese history at the same time.

The amount of shit that I need to learn about Ancient Greek and Roman is simply astounding.

[remote monolith]

Wouldn't that be a dream

Now I'm stuck teaching the same crap again and again

Oh yeah there's this too

"The discovery of Heliocentrism shook Europe out of an age of ignorance and myths, and caused them to be brave and seek out new worlds outside the boundaries of legends"

In other words they're saying Heliocentrism helped started the age of Discovery

Ruminate on that

[ashen furnace]

I mean the Constellations kind of are seeing as they’re based of the FREMM which is Franco-Italian

[autumn sorrel]

Wait, they still think that the Church was all "Earth was center of the universe"? The entire debacle with Galileo wasn't that the Church disagree with Heliocentrism, as matter of fact until it was disprove that the Sun was the center of the Universe, the Church have no problem with Earth orbiting the Sun.

[remote monolith]

that Europeans believed the world was flat, that Columbus set out to prove this wrong, and so forth yeah

told you, backward shit

its super jarring because the specifically Indonesian part has actually been pretty modernized in recent times

[autumn sorrel]

The entire Heliocentrism vs Church thing was bc Corpenicus failed to provide a definitive prove for his theory meanwhile clashing philosophically with his contemporary.

That and Galileo involve in Church politic which for his opposition to adopt the anything that can attack him which include criticism of Heliocentrism doesn't help.

[remote monolith]

yeah, and Galileo failed to decisively prove it too

he had to resort to actual Heresy to do it (reinterpreting the Bible)

[autumn sorrel]

Jesus

In 2008 Menzies released a second book entitled 1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and Ignited the Renaissance. In it Menzies claims that in 1434 Chinese delegations reached Italy and brought books and globes that, to a great extent, launched the Renaissance. He claims that a letter written in 1474 by Paolo dal Pozzo Toscanelli and found amongst the private papers of Columbus indicates that an earlier Chinese ambassador had direct correspondence with Pope Eugene IV in Rome. Menzies then claims that materials from the Chinese Book of Agriculture, the Nong Shu, published in 1313 by the Yuan-dynasty scholar-official Wang Zhen (fl. 1290–1333), were copied by European scholars and provided direct inspiration for the illustrations of mechanical devices which are attributed to the Italian Renaissance polymaths Taccola (1382–1453) and Leonardo da Vinci (1452–1519).

[remote monolith]

yeah he's insane

legit

[peak mango]

Constellation will be fine tbh, just way delayed because 'Americanize a FREMM' made it overweight and basically took away a lot of advantages of buying something already finalized, so ... hull 1 is pushed back. That said, as long as they don't get the urge to tinker further...

[peak mango]

Domestic supply is a thing.

[twilit geyser]

While technically not a warship, the Nasty-class patrol boats, which were essentially Norwegian Tjeld-class patrol boats fit for the US standard, were operated by the US Navy during the '60s.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the procurement of a foreign design, Japan did it with both Kongo-classes and used and uses them potently. So does South Korea with its KDXs. And don't forget the FRAM-cans that were sold to other nations, were said nations found those designs useful for them.

But the problem with the Connies here isn't that they're foreign, it's that they were pushed so far behind on schedule and drastic changes that practically negated the need for using a foreign design in the first place.

[desert agate]

For a more modern example the Independence class for better or worse was built by AUSTAL USA

[zealous vine]

I see, ty!!!

If let's say cruiser wise, which arrangement would be preferred

[spring briar]

Depends on the role

[autumn sorrel]

AB-XY is a good standard but you have thing like Atlanta and Takao

[junior trench]

Atlanta is because triple DP guns of that caliber are a nightmare* and the Myoukou/Takao situation is because the IJN was allergic to three-gun turrets

*or well, triple mounts of any kind in that caliber range

"I love having a crew of 32 men for a mount of this size!"

• the Royal Navy

"The triple mountings were always extremely difficult to train, and the general procedure when moving through a large arc was for the two trainers at the 'normal' and 'director' training wheels to be assisted by the remainder of the crew pushing on the breeches or muzzles."

[narrow rover]

Gen 0 thermals

Apparently most WW2 thermal systems were very very awful

[zealous vine]

Ah ty

[spring briar]

La Galissonnière class actually

Honourable mention to the Brooklyns

[grizzled horizon]

Woaaahhh

[narrow rover]

I wonder what the Americans thought when they realized Hippers belt was actually 80mm and not 100

"Where the fuck is all the weight coming from"

[grizzled horizon]

Which country?

[narrow rover]

🇩🇪

[grizzled horizon]

Of course

[narrow rover]

(I know, not the flag from 1944, but let's be real here...)

[grizzled horizon]

Wait don't they put this with the Stg 44?

[narrow rover]

Yes but no one actually used it

[grizzled horizon]

?!?!?!

Company of Heroes 2 lied to me...

I thought the Fallschirmjager were issued these

[junior trench]

lolno

[grizzled horizon]

[junior trench]

don't rely on CoH for anything

for example

[grizzled horizon]

Haha yeah

Still cool that they added it in tho

[junior trench]

based upon the German's own reporting US troops were the most stubborn enemy they'd ever met

[grizzled horizon]

uh huh

[junior trench]

including rear echelon troops

the Battle of the Bulge was partially decided by the sheer number of US troops of all types deciding to stubbornly hold defenses regardless of their situation, even if it just came down to a single house in a single village, especially if they still had a working radio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXU00YRaIic

[grizzled horizon]

This is also where that one German commander offered a surrender and the American replied with "NUTS!"

?

[grizzled horizon]

Oh damn I see

[narrow rover]

You get quite motivated to fight if your opposing enemy has a 50% chance of just not taking prisoners

This got extreme in the Pacific

And the China front

I don't know how the Germans treated US PoWs, but I don't think it was that good

[junior trench]

it was ok

[narrow rover]

And God forbid you get snagged by the SS

[remote monolith]

the same

[junior trench]

until the SS got involved

[desert agate]

The Germans gave Western Allied POWs treatment in accordance with the Geneva Convention in most cases

[remote monolith]

its McAuliffe who said nuts

[junior trench]

the Malmedy Massacre motivated US troops to continue their defense even harder than they'd already been doing

[narrow rover]

Great idea Joachim Peiper let's just make your enemy troops even more stubborn

[junior trench]

-ish

[narrow rover]

[junior trench]

one area they consistently failed in is that POWs are to be held and fed in the same manner as their guards

[desert agate]

ish yeah it was hardly a guaruntee what your treatment was going to be

[narrow rover]

Eastern Front was pretty bad

[remote monolith]

that goes without saying

pretty bad is underselling your chances

[narrow rover]

Germans just kept captured Russians around until someone came around and shot them

[desert agate]

Wow, POWs were treated pooly on the Eastern Front?
Please tell me more I didn't know about this

[narrow rover]

...honestly I dunno why the Germans ever bothered to capture Soviet PoWs

[remote monolith]

like forget PoWs you have crap like Generalplan Ost and the "100 Soviets civilians for 1 dead German" policy

[junior trench]

conversely towards the end of the war the WAllies were doing kind of goofy stuff like labeling groups as POWs who normally wouldn't be, because it entitled them to certainguarantees of treatment as a humanitarian measure

[remote monolith]

source of Hiwis

[desert agate]

When your entire economy is reliant on slave labour generally it helps to add more slaves into the mix

[remote monolith]

the Heer got chronic shortage of men entering 1942, Hiwis helped plug that gap

[grizzled horizon]

It was to the point that during Battle of Berlin, German troops would try to surrender to the American

[remote monolith]

as you can imagine, Hiwis tend to not get a good reception when the Soviets got their hands on them

[junior trench]

like they could just release all these conscripted Hitler Youth and female support staff/auxiliaries as they're not technically troops, but where would they go and there's no resources to support them outside of the POW system

[narrow rover]

Meanwhile Japanese:
"We have no food"
looks at particularly meaty PoW
"Takashi"
"You thinking what I'm thinking?"

[grizzled horizon]

HAHA

yeah..

[junior trench]

if that was the only reason it wouldn't be nearly as bad

some Japanese troops just did it because they could

[desert agate]

Cannibalism wasn't done for starvation reasons on Rabaul until the end of the war

[junior trench]

the Chichi Jima garrison for example, didn't actually need to

[remote monolith]

Soviet PoWs are also good sources of Sonderkommando units

[grizzled horizon]

Corpse ration..

is real..

[narrow rover]

I mean that commander was the only one that got specifically executed postwar for cannibalism so that goes without saying lmao

[junior trench]

I'm not sure if it was ever done on Rabaul in particular tbh

the farming setup there was extensive

beause the IJA had stripped the countryside of farmers for conscripts

[remote monolith]

it helped keeps the train running by assigning men who's going to die sooner or later anyway as the main operator of the chambers over actual Germans because unsurprisingly killing that many men women and children in weeks tend to mess with one's psyche

[junior trench]

... who got sent to Rabaul

[remote monolith]

no matter how hardcore your ideology is

[junior trench]

and then took up farming

because supply lines doko?

[desert agate]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takenaga_incident

[narrow rover]

I remember the worst was New Guinea

[junior trench]

Rabaul isn't on New Guinea

[desert agate]

No that's my bad

I got my areas mixed up

[narrow rover]

I know
IJA had to specifically tell their troops NOT TO EAT THEIR OWN SOLDIERS
At that point this is less of a horror story and more of a dark comedy

[grizzled horizon]

This is like 40k stuff

[desert agate]

Heaven is Java
Hell is Burma
But no one returns alive from New Guinea

[junior trench]

it's just kinda funny that not all the Japanese garrisons left to wither actually starved because too may of their troops were conscripted farmers and there was arable land around

no longer relevant to the war?

time to farm

which ironically meant some of those garrisons were kind of a paradise posting

[remote monolith]

oh yeah that reminds me, there's that one scene in Saving Private Ryan where the Americans shot two Czechs saying they're not German right, and people called it a dick move

[narrow rover]

I think like... more than 90% died there

[remote monolith]

well as it turns out there were no Czechs conscripts in the Heer, only volunteers

so these guys voluntarily joined in the Heer and then tried to save themselves from throwing their lot with actual Nazis

[junior trench]

it's also kind of an unspoken rule that trying to actively take POWs during an assault is uh, hilariously impractical to the point of often being lethal

even under more controlled conditions there's video from a certain ongoing conflict showing how much of a clusterfuck taking POWs is*

[narrow rover]

I mean that's one of the nasty things with European WW2 recognition
Apparently everyone was resisting
No one was collaborators
(Looks at the pile of dead Frenchmen in Berlin)

[junior trench]

*even when all of them but one want to surrender

[desert agate]

Not quite that extreme but it was a lot
Also the majority of Japanese casualties were from disease and starvation

200'000 Japanese soldiers died in New Guinea to 14'000 Allies deaths split 50/50 between Australia and America

[junior trench]

stares at the postwar French gendarmerie and police

[remote monolith]

I can see that especially on something like D-Day

[junior trench]

slaps crust of baguette
"you can fit so many whitewashed collaborators in this baby"

[narrow rover]

I mean two thirds of all Japanese troops dead in WW2 were killed by starvation or disease

Truly the worst army to serve in in the goddamn war

[desert agate]

I would also note that it was informal practice but widespread to the point of being standard operating procedure was that neither side made any effort to take prisoners for most of the New Guinea campaign

Kokoda was particularly brutal

[junior trench]

it's also one of those things kind of inherent to paratrooper operations that no one like to talk about

airborne units are generally very lean and fighting focused

[remote monolith]

glance at Speirs yup

[junior trench]

you're not often dropping MP battalions in the first waves of a paratrooper op

if ever

[desert agate]

Speirs wasn't really wrong though, the division was still isolated and behind the lines and trying to take their objective

Being tied down with POWs wasn't going to help the units fighting capacity

[junior trench]

he was correct but he wasn't right

[remote monolith]

that's pretty much the point yeah, paras ain't carrying these guys back so he took em out

[narrow rover]

On Japanese cannibalism:
Apparently at the time in Japan there was a bunch of myths around human flesh consumption, supposedly it being the best meat ever or having health benefits or sometimes just superstition

There's one Japanese historian that researched just this topic, but I'm yet to read the whole report

[junior trench]

they also believed Koreans poisoned the wells and caused the fires that came after earthquakes.

and that Jews ruled the world like the Germans claimed they do. So they should buddybuddy up with them because why the fuck would you try to fight the undisputed centeries-long rulers of the world?

contextless racism causes the big funny sometimes

[narrow rover]

Well that and one general seriously believing his houses well produced... gasoline

Whatever was in the water there in Japan, I want it... has to be good stuff lmao

Also the riots after the Great Kanto Earthquake had a real funny (grim dark way) aspect to it

[junior trench]

it's called secret military societies

where they're all simultaneously treasonous to the Japanese government and loyal to the Emprah

[narrow rover]

They "found" Koreans by forcing them to pronounce tongue twisters and if he/she couldn't, shoot 'em

[junior trench]

goedendag

[narrow rover]

Guess what, regional dialect speakers got caught up in the mix

And at least several dozen Japanese got killed

[junior trench]

The origin of the weapon's name "goedendag" has different theories.

One is that it may have derived from French descriptions of the Flemish weapon. Guillaume Guiart mentions of a Tiex bostons qu'ils portent en querre ont nom godendac ("... a weapon called godendac") which happens to be cognate with the Dutch translation of goedendag, which means "good day".[2] Allegedly this is a reference to the Bruges Matins massacre in 1302, at which the guildsmen of Bruges purportedly took over the city by greeting people in the streets, and murdering anyone who answered with a French accent. This derivation of the name may however be spurious. The Flemish themselves referred to the weapon as a "spiked staff" (gepinde staf).

[narrow rover]

"Japan was anarcho-fascist"
-Friend, after a few drinks

[junior trench]

"don't worry bro, the American are poorly trained mongrels"

"bro these dogs got hands"

[brittle glacier]

Was doing some research for a story I’m writing and the fact that in a torpedo run Japanese dive bombers had to throttle down so much on a run is hilarious…on an unrelated note a Kate in a torpedo run could be over taken by a UH-1 Huey.

[junior trench]

meanwhile

These problems were greatly reduced by the latter years of the war. Torpedoes had fin stabilizers, nose drag rings and tail shroud rings added, all of which worked to slow the torpedo after it was dropped so that it struck the water nose-first and at an acceptable speed. These improved the drop characteristics such that the recommended aircraft maximum launch parameters were increased to a height of 2,400 feet (730 m) and a speed of 410 knots.

A lanyard was attached to the tail of the torpedo. When dropped, the lanyard tripped a starting lever, but a water trip delay valve prevented the combustion flask from lighting off until the torpedo had entered the water. When dropped at 150 knots or more, the torpedo would enter the water at an angle of between 26 and 30 degrees. The water needed to be at least 150 feet deep (45 m) and the torpedo assumed its preset running depth after water travel of 300 yards (275 m). The exploder mechanism was armed after water travel of 200 yards (180 m). Depth could be set up to 50 feet (15 m).

The addition of the nose drag ring improved aerodynamic performance by stabilizing the torpedo in flight and reduced air speed by about 40 percent. It also acted as a shock absorber when the torpedo struck the water. The tail shroud ring improved the water run by reducing hooks and broaches and by eliminating much of the water roll which had characterized the earlier Mark 13s. Hot, straight and normal runs now approached 100 percent. To speed availability of the much improved torpedo, the Bureau of Ordnance had tail assemblies built with the shroud ring attached and then shipped these to the fleet for upgrading the existing inventory. By the fall of 1944, the modified torpedo was in general use by the front-line carrier units which were enthusiastic in their praise. On one occasion in early 1945, six torpedoes were dropped from altitudes between 5,000 and 7,000 feet (1,500 to 2,100 m). Five out of the six were observed to make their runs hot, straight and normal.

[narrow rover]

Too little too late but not a bad idea

[brittle glacier]

So Kate Torpedo runs were so slow almost entirely for the Pearl Harbor raid, they had wooden wings attached to the torpedoes and had to angle their aircraft up like ten degrees. All to keep the torpedoes from sinking into the bottom of the harbor.

[remote monolith]

the fact that after this the Germans still tried pulling stunts like Fruehlingserwachen

and the guys doing that are still the same guys from the Bulge

speaking of Bulge I remember reading Osprey's book on it which has the German order of battle in it, and the only thing it says about the 7th Panzer Army is "These guys are shitty as hell and aihn't doing much"

[junior trench]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mElnH-U9Q0w

this vid the professor notes it was like the Germans didn't actually plan beyond "launch a counterattack"

[brittle glacier]

Sounds very German.

[junior trench]

"so we're gonna preposition units and have supporting elements ready, right?"

"idk, just launch a counterattack"

like one example cited is that the Germans were aware the Allies were going to land near Salerno, and had previous experience with how bad dealing with naval fire support was

and as a result... they didn't preposition any heavy artillery to provide coastal gun fire against ships

they just tried to counterattack

again

like they did in Sicily

and got slaughtered

again

like they did in Sicily

[remote monolith]

and even when they do have operational goals set its ludicrously impossible

like the Bulge for example has the aim of not only retaking Antwerp, but also crossing the Meuse and springboarding to retake the entirety of France

[junior trench]

the underlying subtext being

the Germans had severe Eastern Front brainrot

and had no idea how to deal with an enemy who had responsive and flexible fire support

[brittle glacier]

“SIR THE GERMANS HAVE BROKEN THROUGH!!!”
“Stop panicking, Ive already tasked P40s and three Artillery regiments to this shit.”