history

[covert fractal]

germany has fallen, millions must weimar

[runic ermine]

Weimar was a living hell

[junior trench]

That's... Certainly a take

[narrow rover]

More like millions must putsch

[narrow rover]

I do wonder
Would German democracy have held better if the Great Depresson didn't nuke the economy

[runic ermine]

-Political violence in the streets
-Bigger divide between the right and left
-Economic hardship
-High unemployment

[narrow rover]

Honestly considering the other options in the 1920s it ain't THAT bad

Not stable enough to prevent the rise of the mustache man, but still

You could be in Russia where 10 million people were brutally killed

Or be in China where 10 million people were brutally killed

[autumn sorrel]

No

Too much resentment left over from ww1 and Versailles treaty

If anything, if the Depression didn’t happen, German still going to rearm and launch ww2 a bit sooner.

[narrow rover]

Potentially

[remote monolith]

I mean, that's only true for post-Depression Weimar

20s Weimar was in a pretty good spot

political divide notwithstanding

yes there were discontents among the German populace but the country didn't plunge into outright fanatic militarism until the early 30s, partly because a lot of their money did came from American loans and finances

[narrow rover]

Japan also emerged from the great depression relatively intact but

It wasn't enough to prevent the rise of people with insane ideas

[desert agate]

Weimar was actually pretty good

The economic depression disappeared pretty quickly

The nazis rose to power in a general recession but it wasn’t all that bad really

[gleaming smelt]

God damn those old ladies got sterns for days

[remote monolith]

although unfortunately it was a bit of a too little too late moment because conservative movements in general managed to whip the public into a strong da joos sentiment despite some rebounds

[zealous vine]

I've trouble finding info on torpedo-related practices of the US, was Porter the only class to have carried spares..?

[runic ermine]

Ehhhhhhh I wouldn't say so https://share.google/HFzxKbKCeh8xggQi4

Idk why the link is messed up but what Im pointing towards is the German Revolution

[remote monolith]

1918-1919

dawg

of course that's a fucked messed up year

Germany just lost the war, lost millions of men, and was literally bankrupt

if you want an indication of Weimar you're better pointing to post Dawes Plan recovery from 23-29

like this is kinda if you judge life conditions on average in Imperial Rome solely through the time of the Antonine Plague, of course it'd look shit

[spice idol]

https://youtube.com/shorts/91qYAYYd530?si=5P9mIDQAPgeZbCbc

[runic ermine]

What's that

[runic ermine]

Hamburg Uprising https://share.google/dmEHGEOuSvUuyRzCB

German October (October 1923) https://share.google/mlgvAEKUXPKjmXrFw

And who could forget
https://share.google/7y7wnyVew9w9Ewdrl

[remote monolith]

when was the Dawes Plan again, if I may ask

when was it

[runic ermine]

Literally a month later

[remote monolith]

and from any of these, were there even any in the following year

1923 was basically the ultimate culmination of Germany's hyperinflation issues, the following year the Dawes Plan was drafted which rapidly helped Germany to recover and stabilized the economy, and with that the political scene

like if you have anything, anything close to a revolution post-1925 and pre-1929 then maybe you can use that as an example of the Weimar being a shitty time to live in general, but until then I need you to remember the massive hyperinflation crisis, the Ruhr Occupation, and the passive reparations resistance instigated by the Germans themselves between 1919-1923

[spice idol]

The most powerful weapon of the USSR, it is still in the Russian navy)

[spice idol]

Its caliber is 406 mm and can fire 2 volleys in 1 minute)

[eternal veldt]

I think its worth bearing in mind that there is a time called the "Goldene Zwanziger" - literally the Golden Twenties.

[remote monolith]

yeah exactly, the five years before the great crash was for the most part a VERY good year internationally

[spice idol]

Agree

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah and Weimar republic was strong enough and have the support of the public to thwarted all those attempt

[autumn sorrel]

I still maintain that the Golden 20s was a facade, a temporary boom due to immediate recovery after the war but not having a solid base. Problems were brewing in the background but everyone is blindly believe that the stock and economy will away go up, either out of ignorance or they don't want to acknowledge it.

[velvet sinew]

weimar was screwed economically mainly because of the depression.

if the depression didn't happen then i don't think the nazis would have risen to power

even fantic elements on the left and right wouldn't become popular

[autumn sorrel]

Problem is that even without a Nazi due to no Depression, you're having a Germany that either fully recovered or in a better economic position than the Nazi could. Not to mention that Germany re-armament already started since under Weimar so its going to to happen anyway, Nazi or not.

You are having a scenario where a fully revitalize German wanting to either have a rematch or at least influence politic in Europe, not to mention the USSR still there. WW2 will happen no matter what, question is who and where?

[supple sandal]

Albert Einstein made a time machine

[autumn sorrel]

Unironically, yeah

Not that I put much stock into Stalin ability to actually conquer Europe in reality without having the Juggernaut of a Warmachine that is post ww2 Red Army but USSR will definitely initiate something in Eastern Europe and German will definitely pull something for Danzig

[runic ermine]

Having two coup attempts a month apart from each other isnt exactly what one would call stability

[remote monolith]

You still haven't provided an example beyond 1923 FYI

The year that has been spelt out to be among the single worst one in Weimar history

[autumn sorrel]

2 coups that was crush hilariously easy meanwhile the opposition other than the Nazi fractured and never be a serious political force for the rest of the decade

[runic ermine]

I did for 1919

The German Revolution

[runic ermine]

1921 https://share.google/LOupvHn5fXdOyg2t5

[runic ermine]

1919 - 1921 https://share.google/cr5TzrH5itOAlzoVD

And these examples are just the conflicts

[autumn sorrel]

"Beyond 1923", it mean since/after 1923, not before it

[runic ermine]

If he ment that then I got some. But does he want conflicts, economics, incidents, or political tensions?

[autumn sorrel]

Anything that illustrate your points that Weimar was not stable between the period of Dawes Plan and before the Great Depression.

[runic ermine]

You mean when their currency became worthless?

[autumn sorrel]

If you use Currency instability and economic downturn as a sign for political turmoil then of course it is. But that would be very cherry picking bc you choosing a specific time period where we told you that Weimar was stable when the economy was good.

[runic ermine]

Yeah but what about everything else that was going on?

[autumn sorrel]

I swear, if this turn into another "Soviet invasion of Japan" thing. And that was started by you no less.

@remote monolith Please deal with him, I am having massive flashback and headache

[runic ermine]

All I said was that Weimar was a living hell

[runic ermine]

Does Blutmai count? https://share.google/5qPYJ0ZGehc314Dsm

[velvet sinew]

true
i think if that were the case then Germany would likely be more willing to ally with Poland against the Soviets.
a non nazi german government could still be interested in danzig but they would likely see the soviets as a greater threat and as something to focus on more. the weimar government has already dealt with internal communist forces before in the spartacist uprising, establishment of the bavarian soviet republic, and ruhr uprising. this is where the weimar government used the freikorps to help them supress internal communist forces. Poland also had their own fair share of problems with the polish soviet war and Poland at the time of ww2 was led by an authoritarian conservative government with one of most powerful people in the government being marshal edward rydz-śmigły.
Considering the fact that the weimar government had problems with internal communist groups and Poland having problems with the soviets during the Polish-Soviet war, I assume that Germany would be more willing to put aside the issue concerning Danzig and Poland would put aside its already existing issues with Germany to make a pact against the Soviet Union.
a war would happen and the alliances would be different

[velvet sinew]

the soviet union's military during stalin's great purges was not at a great state
it was powerful but still not at a great state and nothing like the soviet military post 1941

[narrow rover]

Honestly a good spank could have broken the USSR around this stage

[runic ermine]

Was Finland not hard enough?

[narrow rover]

Apparently even Germany wasn't hard enough

Straight up trying to conquer the USSR wouldn't really work

[narrow rover]

Has there ever been an instance where two planes shot each other down, the pilots bailed out, found each other on the ground, and resumed the fight there?

[remote monolith]

Dude that's not even a rebellion, that's just communist crackdown

And I backread, you still haven't managed to find any concrete point about Weinar being, in your own words living hell

You just keep talking in circles about 1919-1923

[junior trench]

cites a 1929 event

everyone has been talking about the time between 1923 and 1929

https://tenor.com/view/reading-sign-cant-stop-me-no-one-can-stop-me-gif-13921932

[zealous vine]

?

[supple sandal]

Maybe no one knows

[eternal veldt]

Most destroyers don't have reload torpedoes in the first place

Unless you are the Japanese or the French

Hence why every shot mattered so much at Samar - the fish runs hot, that's it

[spring briar]

True
They mentioned it on Maillé Brézé

[eternal veldt]

IIRC One of the DDs, I forgot if it's Hoel or Heerman, had the torpedo launch mechanism disabled

so the torpedoman just used a hammer to launch the torpedoes - a miscount happened too, I think, launched all 5 instead of 2-3ish

[subtle prawn]

So did those torpedoes actually launch properly?

[spring briar]

I don’t see why not

[eternal veldt]

All launched properly

Johnston's crew were on standby with wooden mallets - all 10 were launched against Kumano successfully
Hoel did two half salvos - Tube 2 was manually launched by hammering the pins
Heerman's crew got too excited and launched 7 torpedoes instead of 5 on her first salvo, followed by the remaining 3

[twilit geyser]

Yes. The reason why the class even had them in the first place was because the given displacement had leeway for either extra artillery or AA or extra torpedoes. US approved the latter and we got the Porters. Other classes did not have this luxury and instead focused on more DP guns.

[zealous vine]

Where were these stores located? The aft superstructure? Forecastle?

And why'd the US consider 10 centerline tubes to be superior to the 12 mixed tube or 16 wing tube arrangement

I've read that it's got to do with spray, but I feel that there's a greater reasoning to this

[autumn sorrel]

Kinda

[autumn sorrel]

The Winter War was a sort of win for the Soviet. Even with massive casualties and Soviet not completely capitulate Finland, the peace treaty afterward was skew toward Moscow favor. It is an embarrassment for sure but hardly something that will deter their Expansionism

[narrow rover]

They need a Russo-Japanese war moment

Most aggressively expansionist countries need one

[twilit geyser]

Aft superstructure, 2 specialized containers at both starboard and portside.

As for the centerline torpedo launchers, there's not one definitive answer but if I had to give one it'd be torpedo technology was still premature at this stage. They weren't guided and you needed to aim them at opponents. Lo and behold torpedo launcher's aren't that different from main guns, and so instead of putting it either forward or aft where the actual main guns sat, they chose amidships and centerline, allows to aim on both broadsides of the ship without sacrificing firepower elsewhere. They only did wing mounted torpedo launchers very later on.

[eternal veldt]

Not quite. Gyro-guided torpedoes were already a thing, and proponents of the torpedo school advocated for 16 tubes originally.

a major reason for the switch to centreline torpedoes, rather than the sixteen tubes ala Gridley and Benham classes, is partly due to the discovery that centreline torpedoes mounted higher in the ship allowed its use in adverse weather - a severe handicap in rough seas for TTs mounted on the main deck.

Worth also noting that these destroyers are relatively light, at around 1.5k tons, compared to the "relaxed" displacement enjoyed by Fletchers at 2.5k tons.

More importantly, with 22 destroyers with 16 tubes already constructed, the later ships did not have as much pressure on the torpedo front - so centreline mounts with a quintuple arrangement was deemed acceptable, for a more generous broadside and saving some 6-7 tons.

[autumn sorrel]

16 tubes is certainly... IJN-esque

Did US Navy have a cult of Torpedo like how US Army have Cult of the Machine gun that I didn't know of?

[eternal veldt]

When your adversaries are building ships with a heavy armament, it helps to look into your own ships and practices

The US are just about as curious on Nelson and Hood when they first came out, with conjectures on why they built it so

[autumn sorrel]

You mean the "All torpedo Battleship" proposal?

[eternal veldt]

The torpedo battleship is dated much earlier and IIRC it performed poorly in war game hypotheticals

at which point the advocated just said "your games are rigged, bullshit" and threw the towel then and there

[twilit geyser]

Apologies on my end, but weren't gyroscopic torpedoes very rudimentary as they only changed course if they veered off from their intended direction? Not chase targets like later magnetic and acoustic torpedoes.

Also jesus, 16!

[eternal veldt]

You are correct that guided torpedoes aren't really there until Mid-WW2 with acoustic homing torpedoes from Germany.

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, it is not as if USN is above introducing BS scenario into Wargames but rely on short range slow moving torpedo that required BB to get close is certainly dumb

[eternal veldt]

Most of these gyroscopic torpedoes essentially have a switch that allows you to set the heading of the torpedo and where it will go once it leaves the tube.

[runic ermine]

I listed 4 main points about Weimar's problems. Furthermore, if the only good years were 4 years out of Weimar's 14 year existence, then that isn't exactly good

[twilit geyser]

I see.

[autumn sorrel]

Technically, it just a minor adjustment for better spread

[eternal veldt]

The main issue with these torpedoes, as the US would sometimes find with their own faulty torpedoes, is that they have a chance to circle round

This results in the torpedo going in a massive circle then coming back and striking your own ship, as had happened to the torpedoes of HMS Trinidad and USS Tang.

[runic ermine]

Didn't the movie Midway in 2019 have a scene about this

[eternal veldt]

That's another problem of the Mark 14, but not the gyroscope.

[runic ermine]

Was it something to do with the fuse?

[eternal veldt]

It's the exploder

The Mark 6's contact exploder mechanism descended from the Mark 3 contact exploder. Both exploders had the unusual feature that the firing pin's travel was perpendicular to the torpedo's travel, so the firing pin would be subject to side loading when the torpedo struck its target. The Mark 3 exploder was designed when torpedo speeds were much slower (the Mark 10 torpedo's speed was 30 knots (56 km/h)), but even then the Mark 3 prototypes had problems with the firing pin binding during the high deceleration when the torpedo collided with the target. The solution was to use a stronger firing spring to overcome the binding.[87] The Mark 14 torpedo had a much higher speed of 46 knots (85 km/h), so it would see significantly higher deceleration, but BuOrd apparently just assumed the contact exploder would work at the higher speed. There were no live-fire tests of the Mark 14 torpedo, so there were no-live fire tests of its contact exploder. If BuOrd had tried some live-fire tests of the contact exploder during peacetime, it probably would have experienced some duds and rediscovered the binding problem.

[runic ermine]

So basically the fuse but for torps?

[eternal veldt]

Not exactly, as Friedman indicates above, the idea is that you can fire off everything from both sides, set the gyro to autocorrect and become a single massive salvo.

[eternal veldt]

Yes.

[zealous vine]

Ah, spray then. Tysm Silver Tears!!1!

Big fan

[eternal veldt]

It's just bad.

and to top it all off, as I said:

[cyan oriole]

the Germans and the Soviets carried reloads, no?

meanwhile French DDs were carrying like 2 reloads total

[cyan oriole]

he would fit right into wows
"whenever I lose, it was because matchmaker was rigged"

[cyan oriole]

no, but spares were removed from most ships during wartime

I believe every class from Farragut to the 1000 Bensons carried exactly 4 reload torpedoes (the 16 tubes ones might have had 8)

the reloads were quickly landed as weight compensation

[cyan oriole]

yeah, in fact the navy was happy to return to 2x4 centerline, and the development of the quintuple tube was just a benefit

there were even several projects with 3x4 centerline TT (the repeat Porters aka Somers class which were built, as well as a repeat Somers with DP guns, and a 2400 ton destroyer leader with 12 tubes likely would have had 3x4 centerline)

[zealous vine]

Ty!

[tight notch]

[subtle prawn]

<@&460646206851252224> We got a scammer here

Thanks to whoever that was that picked up the call

[timber linden]

The more you look at it, the axis was playing amateur hour during the entire second world war

[runic ermine]

Most of them didn't like each other

[timber linden]

Comically at times

[runic ermine]

-Germany saw all slavs as racially inferior
-Germany saw Italians (specifically Southern Italians) as racially undesirable
-Slovakia and Hungary didn't like each other
-Romania and Hungary hated like each other
-Japan saw all their puppets in Asia (and also Thailand who they forced into an alliance) as part of their Asia co-prosparity sphere
-Vichy France and Thailand had a war with each other

[narrow rover]

WW2 as an event was one of the history moments of all time

[timber linden]

People are trying to relive it every day

[cinder escarp]

Number 2 of the modern era, only WW1 was more impactful.

The modern world as we know it geopolitically, is entirely down to WW1 and its aftermath. And yes, that includes the higher budget sequel to WW1.

[supple sandal]

WW1 and 2 is still the same thing

It just have 20 years lull

The conclusion at the end episode 1 is unsatisfactory to many fans so they're pretty pissed

Not exactly 2 separate episodes, more like someone turned a book into movie but make it 2 parts

[zealous vine]

At what point does increasing barrels not increase total salvo weight as compared to increasing calibre for the same deck space

[eternal veldt]

Salvo is a salvo, a shell thrown downrange is always good in theory

That is, until you have so many guns opening up that spotting the fall of shot becomes a difficult task and adjusting the elevation of the gun barrels to fire for effect is impacted

Most nations from what Ive seen set the limit at 12 guns, at least for battleships - Italy has a clearer policy of more than 10 guns = up gun calibre

[azure river]

dont mind me

[cyan oriole]

the hard limit on barrels is 16, aka 4x4 (since quintuple turrets are folly, as are 5 quadruples or 6 triples)

so since more barrels is always a better way to increase salvo weight than bigger guns, the best way to increase salvo weight is just more guns until you have 15/16
(example: a Montana's 4x3 406 is 1225 * 12 = 14700, which is greater than the equivalent 4x2 457 = 1,746.3 * 8 = 13970.4)

however, salvo weight isn't the only heuristic, since obviously you want shells heavy enough to inflict damage to whatever you'll be fighting, which necessitates larger gun caliber

that's why most BBs and CAs have 8-12 guns (light cruisers are an exception since they're locked to 152mm caliber)

[runic ermine]

Some people view the American Revolutionary War and the War of 1812 like that

Mainly Americans

[mental tapir]

At least they settled on one

Does it match SCB-27 now?

[mental tapir]

https://mcsmith.blogs.com/general/2020/09/essex-bow-short-hulllong-hullhurricane-bow-construction-notes.html

[grave ravine]

no lol

[mental tapir]

Thought so

Least hackjob Azur Lane rigging

[supple sandal]

Give us jets

Actually that can wait

What battle would w16 based on

Speculation chat

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwWDIfgkaH4

[tight violet]

Im looking at ww2 nose art, the more "modest" ones to get an idea of swimsuit designs in the 1940s lol

[supple sandal]

Yeah bikini didn't exist yet

Because bomb

[tight violet]

my point being about what skimpy clothing looked like then so i looked at ww2 nose art for
research

knowing that elastics werent that widespread

[tight violet]

bikini ATOLL ofc

[supple sandal]

Bikini gone

[tight violet]

Anything resembling one at the time were merely considered "two piece" is that the word?

[supple sandal]

Wait what did that crew destroy

2 IJN ship?

[supple sandal]

Idk I not a swimsuit expert

But that one look like just underwear

[zealous vine]

What project number was the DP Somers and 2.4kt DL?

[cyan oriole]

project number doesn't really exist in usn

at least friedman doesn't tell us it

here's the mention of the DP somers

the 2400 ton ship was related to the Gibbs destroyer for the USSR (ig the best source for this is kingpin's essay? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nmOCNEAr8WQ8G_UpwOxKv85hABrqr-4a2nLncNncR9o/edit?tab=t.0)

[mental tapir]

Battle off Samar; Yamato as the first UR map drop /j

[zealous vine]

If I'm reading this right, the 1620 tonner is akin to the Somers and has single purpose guns in mind, but the 1850 has dual purpose instead

[zealous vine]

Wasn't this design 507?

[terse mesa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MeO1TcHnvg

[supple sandal]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/813913594159824896/1244393195291414628/Bad_Piggies-2.mp4?ex=68a78779&is=68a635f9&hm=6f841a22eb90ccca28fc8947f2c96f9546a31a4d92a991acd185f14e3995ed7f&

Real?

[cyan oriole]

well they would be 1970 and 2024 tons, but yeah

[cyan oriole]

idk

[zealous vine]

Found the larger context

[supple sandal]

Is this quad 14.5mm machine gun

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxEgFjd42U8

[autumn sorrel]

Kinda

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, it has been a running joke that both side of the Libya Civil War right now is trying to cobbler up a functional MiG-23 using whatever scrap they have left in the hangar

[mental tapir]

🕯️
https://apnews.com/article/last-living-world-war-ii-ace-dies-c2c81ee0771c6e2a0e16fe95d20c08d6

[runic ermine]

Rip

[remote monolith]

babe new Ronson myth just dropped

[narrow rover]

Soyjet

[supple sandal]

Gadyum

We have ERA on T-54 tank

Whatdehelll

Man that thing better have stabilizer

It might

[junior trench]

stabilized sight =/= stabilized gun

[supple sandal]

Shit

[spring briar]

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, the program was proposed by Israeli based on their own modification of T-54/55

[junior trench]

K

[autumn sorrel]

Iirc, they did actually calibrate the gun to sync with the FCS. Not sure about automatic lead tho.

[autumn sorrel]

Don't get your hope up, they shot down the smoke launcher bc the brass wanting to cut cost

Only to add it in again in future program but the mounting is so ass

[frozen kestrel]

words cannot describe the fucking FEAR i felt when I read that

[rapid junco]

Pennant of the 1st Brazilian Fighter Squadron that was used in Italy. Santa Cruz airbase. 2010

[supple sandal]

Might as well retire the damn thing

[autumn sorrel]

Nah, it is still a perfectly capable Fire Support vehicle for infantry formation. Until we got stuff like Centauro or Rooikat then T-54/55 with its 100mm gun will stay.

[supple sandal]

I mean yea 100mm HE is no joke

[autumn sorrel]

The upgrade package is good actually, the T-54M is probably the best upgrade variant currently. The lack of ATGM launching capability mean it can hardly engage in tank on tank combat with modern tank but the upgraded FCS meant its is league ahead most opponents that PAVN expect to fight in a ground war.

[supple sandal]

But like what the fuck is that thought process about smoke launcher

[autumn sorrel]

Cost and the top brass never actually have tank combat experiences.

Most of them coming from Infantry or Commando background.

[supple sandal]

How expensive smoke launcher can be bruh

Already paid for all that ERA and FCS might as well go all the way

[autumn sorrel]

The tank upgrade program was a compromised and reaction to Cambodian and Thailand upgrade their tank fleets.

High Command rather invest more in Infantry and drones but the FCS has already been ordered and delivered plus many turrets was already in process of upgrading so they continue with the program.

[supple sandal]

Cambodia still use the same T-55 like we do, and I think Thailand have M60?

But honestly, the terrain in this region is pee pee poo poo for tank on tank combat

[autumn sorrel]

Cambodian have a small number of T-55 that has been upgraded by Romanian, Thailand M48s and M60s received Israeli upgrades packages.

T-90 was bought as a counter to Thais T-84, when High Command realize that Thais not going to receive anymore MBT anytime soon, they also cut down on the order of T-90.

There were talks of buying T-72s as well to replace T-55 in less important regiments but T-54M program is much more realistic and cheaper.

[supple sandal]

Need someone to fix the mobility issues on the T-72/T-90 series

[autumn sorrel]

Thais newer VT-4 also caused a small concern but T-54M has already been finalized by then so no panic buy to try to match Thais.

[supple sandal]

Why they even panicking about what Thailand have, we not even shared border

[autumn sorrel]

They have always been a theoretical enemy in High Command Wargames for the last half of Century. The scenario ranging from a Cambodian Civil War where RTA and PAVN clashing in Cambodia to a 2nd Border War where PAVN have to defend Cambodian border.

[supple sandal]

I think I want whatever they have smoking

[autumn sorrel]

Myanmar was never realistically considered bc one, they too occupied with their own Civl War and two, Laos is too much of an obstacle for anyone to fight through.

Cambodia scenario is much more plausible. The terrain are treacherous in the Western part but the plain and Ports allowed Thailand to sustain a big enough force.

[supple sandal]

Thanks for answering my questions

[runic ermine]

What's a war or conflict that you guys like to study and research that isn't WW1 or WW2

[zealous vine]

I'm confused about the torpedo suite of the IJN CAs

I'm assuming each and every single rotatable deck / cutout tube from Myoko's 1935 refit to the Tone's had 1 torp reload, no?

It was only the Takaos that had 8 spares, and the Myoko's (1935 and 1944 fit) that had 24 spares?

[timber linden]

Napoleon is pretty dope

[runic ermine]

I like studying a lot of conflicts but my favourite one that isn't the world wars is probably the War of 1812

[timber linden]

https://youtu.be/SPKiBbuP6ks?si=SwbF_iXqM5BGvjqC

1812 is pretty good, always fun to think that indirectly the us was on the side of napoleon.

[runic ermine]

I've also been looking at the Spanish Civil War more in depth (more than I used too) in the past few years

[timber linden]

Kind of tangential to wwii, Franco was the only one with common sense.....not another corspe to shackle to the germans

[runic ermine]

The WW2 pre-game

[timber linden]

Germans always seemed to get the poor choice of allies

[runic ermine]

Also I didn't say the second Sino Japanese war because its technically part of WW2

[timber linden]

Pre world war one conflicts should be interesting

Babies first industrial wars

Franco purussian and the american civil war.

Crimean war

The later being most proto world war 1

[runic ermine]

I don't think there's a conflict in history that I won't at least look into

[runic ermine]

Some people in America view it as a second war of Independence

[timber linden]

It was

No one* messes with our boats

[runic ermine]

Also its not a name that's uncommon as it is also used by the American Battlefield Trust https://share.google/5C6WOd7sgrUB4OroT

[runic ermine]

Wasn't it your sailors and desire to annex Canada?

[timber linden]

The 51st state

[narrow rover]

Russo-Japanese war
Had a lot of implications on the US financial sector, yet no one talks about it

[runic ermine]

Also Fedorov got his idea for his Assault Rifle from that war

Because he saw how portable automatic weapons are very good at killing people

[desert agate]

The Australian Bush Wars

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3lx4m3he6ik2t

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

#RIP U.S. Navy aviator Donald McPherson who passed away on August 14 at the age of 103. McPherson was the last surviving American ace of WWII. Assigned to VF-83 aboard USS Essex, McPherson scored five aerial victories while flying an F6F Hellcat named "Death ‘n Destruction".

Bluesky · Aug 24, 2025, 4:02 AM

[supple sandal]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/660883414978789387/1409337149479718912/IMG_2577.png?ex=68ad0300&is=68abb180&hm=ba855ad29e407e89a9b8f5203d186fe6f55baa0731bf35bed4bd3f35b0c9db32&

Real?

[subtle prawn]

For an anime fest, yes, but why is it here in this channel

[runic ermine]

Wait yesterday was the 211th anniversary of the Burning of Washington https://share.google/S616HgJj2foQaU547

[mental parrot]

I remember seeing RCMP guys walking around this festival a few days ago so it probably is
And plus the festival ACC posted this lmao

[supple sandal]

Hmm

👍

Thanks

[supple sandal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFrB96cMMs8

[desert agate]

https://x.com/antipodeempire/status/1959810047174980066?s=46

Antipodean Empire 🇦🇺 (@AntipodeEmpire)

The New South Wales Corps (as the 102nd Regiment of Foot) fought against Americans in the War of 1812. They were the last enemy force ever to occupy any part of the United States.

X · Aug 25, 2025, 2:48 AM

[autumn sorrel]

You don’t really want to continue with this

[supple sandal]

Canadian and American fighting in Discord?

🍿

[remote monolith]

couldn't be worse than Interbalkan competitions

or between Japanese and literally everyone else in East & Southeast Asia

[narrow rover]

Or China vs India

[desert agate]

Canadians win because they are morally superior

[maiden citrus]

on the contrary, airline polls show american travelers are nicer, rekked

[supple sandal]

Yeah but that one is funny

[autumn sorrel]

Or literally any SEA country that have border together

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, saying that but then stuff like Johnny Somali exist

[supple sandal]

Rice balkan

[supple sandal]

John Somali

John Yemen when

[autumn sorrel]

Somehow it is worse than Balkan, Burma alone have more ethnic group than entire Eastern Europe combine.

[timber linden]

https://tenor.com/view/good-good-evil-smile-evil-grin-racoon-gif-17020508

[runic ermine]

Its a historical event

[runic ermine]

Wow I didn't know that

[desert agate]

Wow, the strategic nuclear bomber could carry more bombs than the tactical fighter

Who would have thunk it

[runic ermine]

Maybe that's why Serbia celebrates shooting it down

[desert agate]

Serbia did not down an F-111

[supple sandal]

F117 F111

[autumn sorrel]

I really love F-111 and Su-24, the entire swingwing concept is so beautiful to look at

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, try AGM then

[supple sandal]

No

GBU

[runic ermine]

Maybe I mixed up the F111 and the F117

[supple sandal]

You did

There are no "maybe"

[frozen kestrel]

I'm doing a render with aircraft meant to come from Graf Zeppelin in it, but War Thunder doesn't have a 109T. Could I just use some G-6s in their place and call it a day?

[narrow burrow]

U guys know where to find RN naval badges?

i found a description of HMS Grenade s badge but no images

[frozen kestrel]

did a bit of digging, but I think I got the right thing

[narrow burrow]

Thats it!!

Always ready is the motto

I think its the same

[frozen kestrel]

aight

[narrow burrow]

Badge: On a Field Green,. a Grenade Black with flames issuant Gold.

[frozen kestrel]

do you have any other ones you need found?

[narrow burrow]

Where did u find it

For fun look up hms terror

I already seen it but

You will see

[frozen kestrel]

https://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/thread.php?threadid=1298&page=59

this thread is SERIOUSLY extensive

[narrow burrow]

Each attatchment is a badge?

[frozen kestrel]

yeah

[narrow burrow]

I see

[frozen kestrel]

at least from what I can tell

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, they mostly the same other than the landing gear and the arresting hook.

[frozen kestrel]

landing gear doesn't matter since they're gonna be in flight, but the arresting hook sounds problematic to me

did any of the other 109s get tail hooks?

because I can just yank it off one of the others and propweld if that's the case

[supple sandal]

@autumn sorrel
Will you watch the parade

[autumn sorrel]

On TV, already spend 2 day watching the rehearsal, I rather not standing and rubbing into other people like pig.

[autumn sorrel]

I will send you the picture but it is simple hook from the look of it

[supple sandal]

Welp I haven't watch the rehearsal

[autumn sorrel]

I hate the civilian, they have no order at all. Some even broke the line and almost get into the way of parade formation

[zealous vine]

Does anyone have info on what this is

Whether it's referenced in Friedman's or something

[autumn sorrel]

“10k tons scout cruiser”, twin funnels, super firing turrets fore and aft, in 1921?

I mean, it is possible in theory for design like that to exist but I’d expect it to be in the late 20s and in 30s.

[zealous vine]

Apparently someone on Reddit mentioned it had /47s, but I doubt them since they mentioned another error with another paper design

[autumn sorrel]

I found one mention for "Preliminary Design Sketch for a "35-knot Scout" Cruiser "Preliminary # 3" ... January 8, 1921":

Preliminary design drawing for a scout cruiser. This design was one of many considered in the process of settling on the plans adopted for the Pensacola (CL-24) class of Fiscal Year 1926. This sketch was one of four undertaken as part of the work leading up to development of a set of five alternative designs (see Photo # S-584-174 to Photo # S-584-178) that were presented to the General Board in March 1921. This design provided four twin 8-inch gun turrets, two forward and two aft. It differed from preliminary sketch # 2 (see Photo # S-584-171) in being flush decked and having a different disposition of the main battery.
This plan provided eight 8-inch guns, turbine machinery, and a speed of 35 knots in a ship 615 feet long on the waterline, 57 feet in beam, and with a normal displacement of 10,800 tons.

[zealous vine]

Oh it's a CA

[autumn sorrel]

My bad, wrong design

Here the correct one:
https://www.shipscribe.com/styles/S-584/images/s-file/s584177c.htm

[zealous vine]

O

Quite heavy for a "scout" cruiser

[autumn sorrel]

There are 2 scout cruiser design, both have the same displacement and Armament

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, that's why I am surprise that a design like that appear in 1921, sound suspiciously like Fischer "Large Scout Cruiser"

[zealous vine]

"Light cruiser sketch"

"Cruiser > Heavy Cruiser"

[grave ravine]

The heavy cruiser was a creation of the 1930 1st London Treaty

[autumn sorrel]

Should be this one
https://www.shipscribe.com/styles/S-584/images/s-file/s584190c.htm

[grave ravine]

Pensacola when built was classed as a light cruiser

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, the class was the first "treaty cruiser"

[grave ravine]

It was only after 1st London created separate cruiser tonnage limits for 6" and 8" cruisers that the US would call all of its 8" light cruisers heavy cruisers

[zealous vine]

Ah

[grave ravine]

Yeah in the USN it was the first treaty limited design, though as the prelims illustrate they had already intended to build 8" light cruisers of about that size before WNT made it the limit

[autumn sorrel]

I supposed the design was a good learning lesson for USN.

[supple sandal]

Regretting my decision rn

now I stuck in the middle of nowhere

[supple sandal]

Now I in the house of a relative with AC and shits

While half of the capital sleeping outdoor

[autumn sorrel]

Wait, you go to the capital?

Bruh, there no hotel left that is vacant for the next few days

[jade dirge]

Decolonization in Africa is already messy but Rhodesia seems to be the worst of them all

The fact that is Ian Smith government is wierdly popular among the black people of Rhodesia said many thing about how messy this war is

They ultimately lose in the Political and Diplomatic fronts but they held pretty well with just covert aid from Salazar and SA

[junior trench]

[runic ermine]

Also Zimbabwe's $1 Trillion dollar bill however that comes in much later

[cyan oriole]

yeah that guy is trolling, this is a 203mm cruiser

[cyan oriole]

I mean there were funny scout light battlecruisers (think Courageous class ships) from around the same time

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3lxkwrnoj7c26

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

#OTD in 1945, Omori became the first prisoner-of-war camp on the Japanese home islands to be liberated when it was reached by landing craft from a Navy rescue mission. Prisoners at the camp had included Marine ace Pappy Boyington, sub commander Richard "Killer" O'Kane, and Olympian Louis Zamperini.

Bluesky · Aug 29, 2025, 8:51 PM

[narrow burrow]

What are this boates

Commercial bote

[narrow rover]

I mean the entire decolonization idea that happened after WW2 was basically a disaster

[desert agate]

I have never met a Black Zimbabwean with nice things to say about Ian Smith

And only a handful of white Zimbabweans

You would have to be a fucking idiot to have positive opinions on Rhodesia

[junior trench]

[autumn sorrel]

It is impossible for Britain and France to hold on to their Empire post ww2. Their economy is in ruin and their population are in no mood for foreign War for some far flung Colonies.

And most Colonies post ww2 have already seen Britain and France for what they really were, weaken powers. Their myth of invincibility were shattered in South East Asia by the Japanese. No matter how much they throw at it, the Natives no longer fear them.

[jade dirge]

The French taste it first hand in the Indochina war

[autumn sorrel]

Like it or not, decolonisation are bound to happen no matter what.

[jade dirge]

in SEA particularly,the Japanese defeat also open up window of opportunity for these colonies to declared independence when the Japanese are gone but none of the Empire return yet

SEA region is a mess afterward,even in modern time with how unstable some of the countries is

Myanmar having a full-blown civil war,the dispute between Thailand and Cambodia and whatever is going on in Indonesia rn

Tbf the current situation in Indonesia has less to do with it colonial past but still

[sullen owl]

Decolonization was too hasty imo

It created a power vacuum that just couldn't be filled by reasonable people.

[supple sandal]

I would feel better if they(the colonial) don't try to return after ww2

[sullen owl]

I'm speaking moreso for Africa than east asia

[supple sandal]

Like everyone would be better off not having to fight more wars

Wonder why it is really hard to explain to people that "war is terrible"

[sullen owl]

Say what you want about Rhodesia being an apartheid state the black Zimbabwens weren't absolutely starving

As Zimbabwe currently stands

Iirc, i read some stats where Rhodesia had the lowest crime rate in Africa up to that point.

Per capita

[supple sandal]

Where is that new jersey emote

This will do

[sullen owl]

Rwanda atleast is currently ina development boon (at the expense of the congo though)

Its crazy how such a small state is bullying the Congo as of recently

[autumn sorrel]

Myanmar problem is hardly the result of colonialism, it is more of the unfulfilled promises that Junta Regime rather ignore. As for Thailand and Cambodia, the map might be drawn by French but the Conflict is the result of Ultranationalism, Political intrigue and internal affair of both Countries.

[autumn sorrel]

Simple, you have a well motivated and well armed Forces vs a demoralized, barely supplied and fractured commands Army.

Congo might be larger but the barely developed infrastructures and roads mean they cannot deploy force large enough to actually become a threat to Rwanda.

Not to mention DRC internal political conflict mean that the current ruling president cannot afford a big defeat.

[narrow burrow]

Picture for u

[zealous vine]

Does anyone know the location of Dealey's 533mm fixed torpedoes

I would assume it would follow the same style as in the Mitschers, but Dealey's railings don't imply such a position

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1961869268032610591

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1955, an Australian pilot cranked the propeller of an Auster Autocar J-5G training aircraft but was unable to get in the plane before it rolled down the runway and took off. The pilotless plane flew around Sydney for 3 hours before two RAN Sea Fury pilots shot it down.

**💬 2 🔁 17 ❤️ 82 👁️ 4.1K **

FxTwitter · Aug 30, 2025, 7:10 PM

[desert agate]

<@&472236072743600148>

[zealous vine]

What type of scam was it again

[supple sandal]

Is it what I think it is

[supple sandal]

What AA is that

[supple sandal]

Message delayed by 2 hours

[jade dirge]

Vietnam military museum ?

Then it is Soviet Made,the missile is for sure SAM-2

[autumn sorrel]

Bofors and S-75

[supple sandal]

Not the 37mm?

I be damn

Like I have an inkling that it is the bofor but I think "nah it can't be"

[jade dirge]

Those WW2 AA gun is still effective against ARVN airforce

[autumn sorrel]

Probably, it would be China Type 65

Honestly, it is difficult to say from the angle and the picture

[jade dirge]

How did USS Phoenix goes all the way to Argentina and became the Generenal Belgrano ?

[supple sandal]

Like there are real 37mm outside and they look nothing like that picture

The con center is very crowded

[subtle prawn]

The Americans decommissioned and sold her to the Argentinians post-WW2

[supple sandal]

😭😭

Not the fucking Stanford experiment

[brittle glacier]

Holy shit general is insane…anyway, this place looks cozy.

[brittle glacier]

They did the same thing to the USS Barb and I’ll never forgive the Italians for such a crime.

What do these two pictures have in common?

[narrow rover]

Cursed timeline where Yamato survives WW2, someone buys her and sells it to the Argentineans

[remote monolith]

ah yes, the Tojokistan world

[mental tapir]

Some part of me wonders if it might have been possible if for some reason the planes just bombed and rocketed the turrets and guns out of action and left the hull alone

Definitely wishful thinking, but still

[zealous vine]

Personal opinion; any aviator would prefer not to stick around too much

But recreations are possible, see movie prop Yamato

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3lxpjrrcb6k2r

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

Happy 101st birthday to USS Yorktown veteran Robert E. Taylor. Taylor was manning an anti-aircraft gun during the Battle of Midway when he received the order to abandon the crippled carrier. He jumped overboard and swam to the destroyer USS Balch. He now lives in Central Florida.

Bluesky · Aug 31, 2025, 4:42 PM

[brittle glacier]

Kickass.

[sullen canyon]

Florida Man did a thing during WWII I see

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/BAESystemsplc/status/1962115823377482012

BAE Systems (@BAESystemsplc)

Norway has selected the UK as its strategic partner to deliver future maritime capability, which will include the export of at least five BAE Systems’ designed and built Type 26 frigates.
︀︀
︀︀Read more about the partnership here 👉baes.co/aL8S50WOJrX

**💬 10 🔁 107 ❤️ 640 👁️ 48.3K **

FxTwitter · Aug 31, 2025, 11:30 AM

[timber linden]

I thought you said tokyostan...i was going to be like give it a few years

[junior trench]

Delivery date of never

[autumn sorrel]

Bruh, it take them 11 yrs just to commissioned the first ships

[subtle prawn]

There's speculation that they might be getting hulls originally destined for the RN

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, it certainly going to cut down on the receiving time but isn't that is at the expense of RN? RN do need those frigate, like right now.

Any particular reason why they choose Type 26 over SIGMA and FREMM?

[subtle prawn]

It's believed due to political reasons

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/OnDisasters/status/1962485750932373994

Air Safety #OTD by Francisco Cunha (@OnDisasters)

🧵 #OTD in 1983: Korean Air Lines 007, a B-747, is shotdown by a Soviet AF SU-15 off Sakhalin (USSR). All 269 aboard die. Jet strayed into Russian airspace; air defenses misidentified airliner for US RC-135 spy plane. Factors: navigation error, navaids, Soviet military organization. (More info on comments 1/16 ⬇️ )

**💬 9 🔁 25 ❤️ 118 👁️ 10.4K **

FxTwitter · Sep 1, 2025, 12:00 PM

[junior trench]

for political reasons, we're choosing to not receive any ships

[supple sandal]

https://fixvx.com/KrypTanko/status/1962547721769734273

The Odd Tank Poster (@KrypTanko)

BMP-3's your BMP-2
BMP-2's your BMP-3 https://t.co/AkSxHj38QS

vxTwitter / fixvx · Sep 1, 2025, 4:06 PM

[supple sandal]

What is the biggest DD of ww2 is chat?

[mental tapir]

You mean by length or displacement?

Or by gun diameter?

[cyan oriole]

that's funny asf

[cyan oriole]

mogador

although in theory you could count a Capitani as a "DD"

[timber linden]

1936A

[supple sandal]

👍

[junior trench]

1936A tonnage varies pretty wildly.

Gearing class is consistently around 2620 tons to the 1936A's ~2540-2650

and yes, a range of 100 tons is pretty wild for ships of that size

[runic ermine]

That explains why Z23 is the way she is

[narrow rover]

Honestly just pick any German or French DD and you have your answer there

France because "noo our DDs must be cruiser sized" and Germany because for some blasted reason their shipyards can't produce anything without being comically overweight

[junior trench]

[narrow rover]

RIP to whichever poor fuck that had to deal with the 1934A class's engines

1500 psi boilers with dogshit ergonomics

[desert agate]

I can tell you’ve never been to Tokyo

[terse mesa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WdwsyLC05k

[supple sandal]

Can you explain the joke, because I also never been to Tokyo

[spring briar]

Simplifying years of design considerations influenced by the rather unique situation of the French fleet to “nooo our DD’s must be cruiser sized” is a bit…

Do you even know what a cruiser looks like

[eternal veldt]

I wonder why there's specifically a Contre-Torpilleur and Torpilleur d'Escadre territory.

Or, you know, Esploratori.

[spring briar]

USN scout/flotilla leader design studies

[runic ermine]

Is that why their "Large Destoryers" exists?

Notably the Mogador and Vauquelin classes

[spring briar]

They are fleet scouts designed to punch trough enemy destroyer screens

While also being able to perform normal destroyer duties

[eternal veldt]

Mogadors had the more specialised mission of escorting Dunkerque (Mogador) and Strasbourg (Volta) as part of a squadron in hunting down German Panzerschiffe

[spring briar]

ASW and the like

[eternal veldt]

The core of them is engage the enemy screen quickly then disengage

[autumn sorrel]

I mean isn't that also CL job?

[spring briar]

CLs are to punch trough CL screens

[eternal veldt]

I mean, the name Contre-Torpilleur is pretty good on an etymology level

"Counter to destroyers"

[spring briar]

The CL’s are general purpose
Defending trade
Colonial duties

[autumn sorrel]

Isn't that "counter to Torpedo"?

[eternal veldt]

Mogador is a bit low on the power generation levels IIRC and a bit overstretched on the CT concept, but, not the point

Well, Torpedo boat, if you're being more exact.

[autumn sorrel]

Oh right, Colonial duty ships. I do remember those are exempt from Naval Treaties. So does France trying to skirt the limitation place on them by investing into those ship?

[spring briar]

The cruisers are not exempt

France just needed a light cruiser that could perform the menial tasks while also having them be armored enough to do stuff like the Brooklyns, Towns or Abruzzis

[autumn sorrel]

I mean the Avisos class of ship

[spring briar]

We’re talking about CL’s like the Duguay Trouins, La Galissonnières and de Grasses

I forgot what the treaties had to say about avisos

[autumn sorrel]

What are the threat assessment on IJN then?

[spring briar]

Not a huge factor for France

[autumn sorrel]

Like the Dutch, France surely have ship plan with IJN in mind?

[spring briar]

French designs were mostly influenced by the European theatres

[autumn sorrel]

They expect to not hold on to the Far East?

[spring briar]

Not realistically no

The avisos and cruisers are for local defence and internal issues but you can’t really hope to win against a navy like Japan while also having to defend the homeland

The Dutch have a tiny coastline compared to France and relatively speaking benefit much more from their colony to justify investing in a larger fleet there

But even then it’s not going to realistically hold all the territory against Japan

Methinks

@delicate beacon DM me with your thoughts

[subtle prawn]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/scottish-shipyard-may-build-frigates-for-sweden-and-denmark/

[cyan oriole]

torpilleur = torpedo boat

French is pretty unique in that they call their destroyers "torpedo boats"

most other navies just say "Destroyer" (Destructor, Zerstörer, Niszczyciel) or the like
there's also italian "cacciatorpediniere", which I believe translates to "torpedo boat hunter", and contre-torpilleur ("counter-torpedo boat)

[cyan oriole]

there's also smaller vessels that can be used for basic duties, think like gunboats and sloops and the like

you can save tonnage because you don't really need speed for that

[cyan oriole]

wasn't the idea to have some sort of "fleet in being" that can make the japanese think twice and delay them long enough that the British and other allies could intervene?

[cyan oriole]

germans did produce destroyers lmao, but they called them "torpedo boats" (even though some are similar size to the italian fleet destroyers)

the big destroyers are motivated by the desire for high aramament, high speed, good enough endurance, high seaworthiness, and high survivability all in one package, which like with other german ships pushes up displacement

[junior trench]

I mean

destroyer derives from the shortening of "torpedo boat destroyer"

also ya'll keep just sitting there ignoring the Gearing sized elephant in the room

[cyan oriole]

the biggest DD is still either Mogador, Tashkent, or Regolo

whether by dimensions or tonnage

ok well technically the biggest DD is a zumwalt

[timber linden]

Sir as i have been reminded countless time. This is a history channel

[cyan oriole]

https://tenor.com/view/roberto-royber-cavalo-roberto-caballo-roberto-caballo-royber-gif-1431259904852519096

[subtle prawn]

If talking about more modern military equipment really was enough grounds to lose access to this channel, me and a good number of other regulars here would have have our privileges revoked a long time ago

[tacit sage]

Yo it's Mister Ed

[supple sandal]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/863805399235690516/1412651742746644480/Screenrecording_20250903_102815.mp4?ex=68b911f5&is=68b7c075&hm=1e8b1e35ad29099bdee2dd7b940e2214897204c192c8674938f2ebc9b982617e&

[cyan oriole]

it really is true: communists that understand economics are just capitalists of a different flavor

[narrow rover]

When everything is class struggle...

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, yeah

[timber linden]

Too bad they are just a fantasy nowadays

[timber linden]

My college professor said that if I give up all my rights we can get a rich person to pay me to write my slam poetry while I sit at the fair trade coffee shop in uni town

[brittle glacier]

At what point did we stop putting Deck Guns on submarines?

[autumn sorrel]

When people realize that surfacing for a surface gunfight mean death sentence.

In actuality, it is obsolete once Convoy system was implemented. And the death knell come when Surface search radar become a thing and night raid no longer viable.

[brittle glacier]

Counterpoint:

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, I rather take the chance with Hedgehog than a cannon duel with a Fletcher

[brittle glacier]

Those are 5” rockets…

[autumn sorrel]

It doesn't matter, you can spoof and hide from Sonar and Hydrophone, there no hiding from Surface search radar.

[desert agate]

1945

Many of the last submarines of ww2 were equipped with deck guns, almost all of which were removed within 10 years of entering service

Almost all post-war submarines built by major combatants had no deck guns, excluding pre-war designs

All of the European shipbuilders basically stopped building submarines for the first decade after the war, with few exceptions, so they basically went into the post-war submarine developments having already caught up to the lack of deck guns being used internationally

A lot of these designs were following German developments
The Type XXI didn't have a traditional deck gun (although it did have anti-aircraft guns) because it was the first submarine designed to operate under water for extended periods of time

Thess ideas were rapidly adopted post-war

I'm sure there's a handful of post-war submarines with deck guns, but none which come to mind, certainly none from the major players

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, experiences show that Torpedo attack while submerged is much more successful than early war night raid. As much as Uboat force suffered horrible casualties, they do learn the lesson even if it was a bloody price.

[desert agate]

My understanding is that the majority of submarine attacks during the war were from surfaced boats

And in any case, WW2 boats weren't designed for extended stays underwater

[brittle glacier]

Tech limitations Im sure.

[desert agate]

Yes

Battery technology simply didn’t allow for extended undersea cruises at the time

[brittle glacier]

Mmmm…spicy rocks…

[desert agate]

Even today, modern diesel electrics have to move near the surface to run their diesel motors, they do have much longer endurance and they don’t have to completely surface anymore, but the principles of the technology remain the same

[brittle glacier]

https://tenor.com/view/cherenkov-radiation-nuclear-reactor-gif-18248180

[desert agate]

Submarines of ww2 can really be better thought of as submersibles

Only capable of diving for a few hours at a time, at most 24 hours but rarely that long at all

They were not anything like the modern nuclear or diesel boats of today

https://x.com/AlexLuck9/status/1963242736276177144

Alex Luck (@AlexLuck9)

Asahi reports that the upcoming 2+2 meeting between Australia and Japan will, among other things, establish a forward maintenance regime for RAN missile destroyers docking in Japan. This would presumably also lay further foundations for SEA 3000.
https://t.co/TpC7QlKlcP

X · Sep 3, 2025, 2:08 PM

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, this couple with Mogami deals mean that RAN could possibly have further cooperation with JMSDF.

Seeing that AUKUS sub program future is a bit uncertain right now, would RAN reconsider acquire AIP sub from Japan?

[peak mango]

Until the snorkle, at least.

[junior trench]

The snorkel of WW2 was a shitshow

U-boats were gambling their lives every time they wanted to run submerged with it up

[peak mango]

In any case, no deck guns once everyone went teardrop shaped for more quiets. Yay albacore

[subtle prawn]

I somewhat doubt they would get anything non-nuclear at this point in time

[autumn sorrel]

Even if RAN opted for a modified Taigei then it still going to have sooner delivery date than AUKUS.

[subtle prawn]

It seemed to me they're going all in on the nuclear-powered subs, but that's just my perception of what I've read

[autumn sorrel]

Huh, my impression was that they at first want AIP sub but then opted for a SSN designed by France. The deal fell through bc of US and AUKUS agreement so now they are stuck with AUKUS SSN.

[subtle prawn]

Idk what exactly happened, but the French apparently screwed them over in some way which ended the original plans for subs

[autumn sorrel]

I thought it was the other way around?

[subtle prawn]

Like I just said, Idk the exact details of what happened, but something caused a falling out which resulted in that deal being cancelled

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3lxxiru26k223

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

After signing the Instrument of Surrender on 2 September 1945, the Japanese delegation traveled to Tokyo to report to Emperor Hirohito that they had been treated with a magnanimity that Japan probably would not have shown the U.S. if the roles were reversed. The Emperor agreed.

Bluesky · Sep 3, 2025, 8:45 PM

[zealous vine]

How would the Dealey been able to carry long 533 torps on that small of a structure?

[desert agate]

Japanese subs do not have the range for Australian requirements

Pillar 1 AUKUS is going ahead as planned

[junior trench]

context?

[timber linden]

No, the us ground your army and navy into dust. We produced more of aircraft than you could hope, we train men better and quicker, we produced ships at a scale never before seen. You were ground to nothing.

[desert agate]

Way to miss the point

[timber linden]

Nah, there are noble ideals in war. Only the will to produce more.

To outcast the enemy

[desert agate]

There are nobler ideas in democracy, freedom and liberty

The United Nations were superior on the battlefield, yes, but that superiority was enabled by their ideals

The brutal victories in the Pacific, Burma and China were not won because the soldiers were merely better, they won because their ideals were better

WW2 was a battle of ideas as much as it was a battle of soldiers and nations

A coalition of lesser ideals would not have won the Second World War

[cyan oriole]

don't forget the ideals of the soviets

noble things like not getting shot by the komissars

[desert agate]

That didn’t really happen but go off I guess

Not saying the Soviets were good, they weren’t, but there’s no need to spread myths, they did plenty of stuff that’s actually worth mentioning

[subtle prawn]

Reality says that the people getting shot by barrier troops was the exception and not the rule

[remote monolith]

^

firstly, there were not many barrier troops in the first place, thats a massive waste of men that could be heading to the front instead

secondly, even if someone did get caught, they usually simply get returned to their unit, since the chief concern was desertion

if you're bad enough though you do get to the penals

[desert agate]

Most armies of WW2 shot deserters regardless

[remote monolith]

or hang and torture

and was the case with the germans

well, by the end just talking defeatism gets you that

[desert agate]

The British and commonwealth nations were the only ones who made a point not to execute deserters

It should also be noted that the Australian army was one of the first to remove the death penalty as a potential punishment, some Australian soldiers were regardless sentenced to death in WW1, but all sentences were commuted

[supple sandal]

Just suck it up japan

Just say they lost on all fronts, culturally and tactically/strategically/military

[peak mango]

enabled by lend lease ...

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aU0bMPl78Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWkvQAK9pVE

[plain thorn]

Dont know if this is the right channel but the Wreck of the german U-Boat U16 was recently recovered but broke in half during the process

Apparently theres also talks of scrapping it now

[remote monolith]

This is the right channel yeah

Darn shame

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_cTLi3uwvI

[plain thorn]

It annoys me a lot

Its from 1911, how much do we still have from that time? Not that much

That boat was in an Ok state because it was supposedly scuttled near port but no experts were consulted for the recovery and no proper documentation was done

[plain thorn]

i was trying to reply to the "darn shame"

[supple sandal]

I am bothered by the lend lease argument

It enabled the soviet to do everything more effectively

But doesn't feel like the soviet would lose Stalingrad without it either, it just gonna take longer

The worst thing that can happen is just they(USSR) can't push as far as they did

[autumn sorrel]

Without Lend Lease, Soviet logistics will not be mechanized and the losses in locomotive will not be replace. Without Lend Lease, the Red Airforce will suffer even much worse in term of losses and fuel.

Not to mention, Red Army will not be able to amass enough strategic supply to even think about Deep Battle

[narrow rover]

Assuming the US stays out of the war, perhaps Japan doesn't strike Pearl Harbor somehow... I'm expecting Germany to eventually be ground down, but Europe would probably lose something like 10% of its population

[dusky totem]

Without lend lease Japan would likely be able to somewhat control China and the pacific and the next logical step would be attacking the soviet western and southern borders. Which would heavily reduce the soviets ability to combat the german push.

With no lend lease it wouldn't be out of possibility that the Axis secures Africa allowing more troops to move to the eastern front.

[brittle glacier]

If you were to design a battleship for a frontline conflict in the 1980’s what would you do?

[cyan oriole]

I would make a battleship of around 10,000 tons

and it would be called something like Arleigh Burke

then we could build a lot of them

[brittle glacier]

Lol

[timber linden]

Roosevelt was going to get into the war one way or another

Would be interesting to see a 1941 royal navy vs ijn without the us navy

Without US I dont see the allies keeping the Solomons but I doubt japan could invade aussie land

Europe in the other hand: the brits would probably starve without us navy hunting and killing the u boats to the degree that we did. The east would still be the meat grinder that it would be, probably the germans collapsing but the soviet chase would take longer....46 or 47 to Berlin would be my rough guess

If the soviets could reach it depending on how far they could get thier supply lines m

[timber linden]

https://tenor.com/view/tt-gif-22612306

[desert agate]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_raid

The biggest issue for British carriers against the Japanese was their complete lack of dive bombers

In most other respects the British very well could have stood toe to toe with the Japanese, in fact the British caught the Japanese carriers completely by surprise with land bombers at one stage

[desert agate]

Japan couldn't have invaded Australia, nor did it have any intention of doing so

The IJA had no interest in making the attempt, and even if it made an attempt it would have lost

[desert agate]

The U-boat campaign would not have starved Britain, in fact it was an utterly ineffective waste of resources with or without the USN

[narrow cloak]

Meet HMS Zubian

Unlike other ship she…

She was built by combining two Warship

HMS Zulu and HMS Nubian

HMS Porcupine was Torpedoed and crippled by U-602. Cut into two by the Royal Navy. Both halves converted into two individual accommodation hulks known as HMS Pork and HMS Pine.

[flint mesa]

HMS Gojocupine

[supple sandal]

https://youtu.be/Ofh2zRYc5GU

[autumn sorrel]

Knowing Makarov myself, it is so funny seeing Chinese turn one of the most reliable and simple designed pistol into a mess bc of cost cutting and DIY mindset.

Like, how could you mess up the Sear spring?

[timber linden]

Guess churchhill (imagine my shock) lied to the americans

[desert agate]

Well, no, obviously not

We only know how inneffective the campaign actually was with the benefit of hindsight

But there was not a single month through the entire u-boat campaign, before and after US entry into the war, where more than 1% of merchants were lost

The Churchill slander is somewhat unusual there since it's not as if the US didn't know what was going on in the theatre

Roosevelt was simply determined to help the Allies win the war

Churchill was many things but he was seldom a liar

[echo onyx]

https://youtu.be/xJqfrkjI_ag?si=25Kjz_PM2UQKrOCP

[echo onyx]

[desert agate]

<@&472236072743600148>

What is it with all these scam bots

That's like the 3rd or 4th time I've had to ping mods for it

Insane

[frozen jewel]

Old hacked accounts, unfortunately.

[timber linden]

The number of hacks has increased....probably due to low cyber security quality.

Probably written by ai and cheap worker not giving a care

Or

Code written by chinese for chinese if you know what I mean

[supple sandal]

I have a feeling that is a racist remark but I still want to hear more

[timber linden]

Chinese isnt a race

Asian is a race

The chinese programed that into people when they were deflecting on the "virus of unknown origin"

On a side note, ask another Asian what they think of the PRC

[supple sandal]

I can ask myself thank you

[timber linden]

But, the chinese are known to leave backdoors in most programs they develop so the ccp can access the device or network that they use

As example

Azur lane the app probably has that backdoor in it as well

[supple sandal]

any game with kernel anti-cheat tbh

[supple sandal]

yeah I think I have enough

do something about before mods start hammering

[timber linden]

Yeah, that the natural response

[mystic schooner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpYliZvgMtE

cute, very shallow

but cute

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA-sBbMopEM

[cinder escarp]

Spoiler: it's because their ships were sunk

[peak mango]

Ask a non-PRC dwelling/aligned Chinese what they think of the PRC ...

[cyan oriole]

brits vs IJN, germany, and italy at the same time

hmm I wonder how that goes chat

maybe in this timeline, Italy will managed to win 1 battle in the mediterranean

[cyan oriole]

https://tenor.com/view/tohru-adachi-persona-persona-meme-persona-4-adachi-true-gif-7116743331727845085

[cyan oriole]

you really think the British carrier fighters could have handled the Zeroes?

and not like British offensive carrier aircraft were anything special, either

british carriers had to use american aircraft in the end

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppEZqr0ZSso

[timber linden]

That is what I going to say. Would the brits and the limited other navies be able to deal with the med and pacific and Atlantic at the same time with the 1941/1942 without the american navy

[timber linden]

Depends on if know someone is listening

The chinese i worked with would bad mouth the prc but if they knew someone was listening they were yhe most patriotic person out there

Like: "I dont agree with president xi and thinks his policies are bad" to " i am studying in the us to take my knowledge back to china and make it a stronger and better place" while standing at attention

[timber linden]

Imagine Guadalcanal, the convoys to Malta and the battle in the north Atlantic....at the same time with limited ship yards making up loses to both merchant and military. I think the royal navy would be over whelmed unless they scored major back breaking victories like midway

I dont think the brits could lose the 6 heavy cruisers like the us did and make them up like the us did

[cyan oriole]

no they would get smashed

the IJN just walks through the pacific, blockades Australia into surrender, and then the army might even be break into india or something (considering they are not tied up in New Guinea or whatever tf they were doing)

also they won't have any fuel shortages ever because no American submarines

[cyan oriole]

yeah the Brits were already getting hugely attritioned just in the atlantic

cruisers getting sunk by bombers in the med, the submarine campaign, and then Prince of Wales and Repulse getting sunk instantly

Germany would still lose though, the Soviets will eventually pull through (albeit with heavy casualties) even with much less lend-lease

a peace settlement with Japan would basically be forced and Japan would basically get whatever they wanted, and then the cold war would be Allies vs Japan (the Soviets would have been smashed by the Germans and left a second-rate power, even in victory. Kinda like what happened to the UK or France after the war, except with far more devastation)

[desert agate]

Why would Guadalcanal be a major focus for the Allies in this scenario?

Papua and Port Moresby would be, as it was historically, the major combat theatre of the South Pacific

[desert agate]

The famously effective American submarines of 1942 indeed

[desert agate]

Where is the IJA getting the troops to do a better job invading Burma?

Britain probably isn’t winning a war against Japan while fighting Italy and Germany alone

But

I really can’t see it being as disastrous as you seem to think it would be

Burma is basically a non starter for the IJA, good luck invading the area when they struggled to supply the troops they had, somehow adding more divisions isn’t going to help

Port Moresby probably isn’t surviving the naval invasion

But the Japanese cannot, and also are wholly unwilling to go any further. The Japanese are just as aware of the size of the Australian landmass and the quality of Australian troops as anyone else

[cyan oriole]

key word is "ever"

they don't even have to worry about submarines

[cyan oriole]

if there are no Americans, wouldn't defending new guinea just be an impossibility for the Allies? that's where their resources would come from

[desert agate]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Helfrich

[cyan oriole]

new guinea was a lot of effort for Japan that is saved now that American resources, transports, and money don't exist

[cyan oriole]

ok, they have to deal with submarines for the first 2 months of the war

until the east indes are taken

[desert agate]

Most of the Royal Navy submarine force was built for war with Japan

[cyan oriole]

yes but what bases are they going to use that aren't getting bombed by the kido butai?

[desert agate]

It isn't a stretch of the imagination to view a scenario where the Royal Navy is able to redeploy some of their submarines Eastwards

[cyan oriole]

they will basically be stuck in the indian ocean

[desert agate]

The 2nd largest submarine base of the war was in Fremantle

[cyan oriole]

hmm that would work

I doubt the japanese can get rid of australia even in this cursed timeline

and it's far

[desert agate]

There's basically no winning the Battle of the Coral Sea without USN carriers, you are correct, but the RAN did sustain a guerrilla war in Timor for almost a year, and Timor is a lot further away than Port Moresby

[cyan oriole]

yea but it doesn't take as many resources to fight guerilla as it does to fight both guerillas AND the australian and american armies

[desert agate]

American army in PNG lol

[cyan oriole]

idk anything about the new guinea campaign

[desert agate]

MacArthur sent the marines up the Kokoda track, and they didn't even make it to the front before they were forced back

[cyan oriole]

my land knowledge stops at the dutch east indes falling and after that I know about naval battles only

gg reds

[cyan oriole]

seems useful

[desert agate]

Well you should probably seek to educate yourself

[cyan oriole]

nah I don't care about land battle

[desert agate]

The US was mainly involved in a supporting role in the region, they provided invaluable cargo and transport aircraft, and had them blown up because they used peacetime spotting arrangements

The RAAF was a sizeable force, capable of keeping the Japanese at bay by simple matter of concentration

[cyan oriole]

the fuel would be shipped from America, right?

[desert agate]

Fuel exists in other parts of the world

[cyan oriole]

would be difficult to keep that supply line going without the USN

still would be hard to defend convoys

[desert agate]

Australia has oil

The middle east has oil

India and Ceylon, have oil

[cyan oriole]

do they have the ability to refine it?

[desert agate]

Ridiculous question

Of course Australia can refine oil domestically if it has a domestic oil industry

[cyan oriole]

well yeah, but this is about sufficient quantities

also judging by what happened at Darwin, even transporting from Australia to New Guinea is not completely free

[desert agate]

Darwin wasn't being used for transporting resources to PNG

It was full of ships, planes and personnel who had just escaped the East Indes, and were preparing to move further South before the IJN got involved

[cyan oriole]

if the Japanese can bomb Darwing, they can bomb the convoys coming from New Zealand or wherever

[desert agate]

No?

Do you know where Darwin is in relation to Sydney?

[cyan oriole]

what? the endpoint is new guinea

it doesn't matter where they came from

just attack them when they show up

[desert agate]

The IJN isn't just going to park carriers off PNG for the rest of the war

Where else are they attacking the convoys from?

[cyan oriole]

yeah but they can walk in every once in a while when needed

it's not like the IJN has anything better to do

[desert agate]

Yes it does

The Far East Fleet is sitting in Ceylon and getting stronger day by day

The Royal Navy is hardly going to sit idly by

[cyan oriole]

well the last time the far east fleet fought the Japanese, it didn't go so well

[desert agate]

It actually kind of did

[cyan oriole]

losing 2 battleships, a couple cruisers, and defenseless aircraft transports that couldn't be protected is a good outcome?

[desert agate]

The heavy cruisers were admittedly critical losses, but the rest of the battle didn't really go that poorly

The Royal Navy was on the offensive more often than it wasn't

[cyan oriole]

yeah because the Americans were there to keep the Japanese busy

[desert agate]

The IJN carriers were jumped multiple times and barely escaped critical damage

Kido Butai was itself bombed, and didn't even realise it until it saw the water started to explode

[cyan oriole]

the RN was on the offensive in the second half of the war, when Japan couldn't do anything about it

[desert agate]

I'm talking about the Indian Ocean Raid

Obviously

[cyan oriole]

without USN forces for the Japanese to throw their ships away on, things are more dicey

[desert agate]

Yes because the USN was famously involved in the Indian Ocean raid

[cyan oriole]

and the RN was famously involved heavily in the pacific in 1942 and 1943

[desert agate]

It absolutely wasn't the main force of the IJN sending itself against the RN and destroying a handful of expendable assets while Cunningham preserved his strength

[cyan oriole]

and he could preserve his strength because the Americans were there to stop the Japanese from taking whatever they wanted

what if the far east fleet has to sail out before 1944 when they're done gathering strength?

[desert agate]

The RN was involved enough to leave a carrier division parked in Ceylon with a handful of battleships and was able to spare a carrier for the USN

And that carrier division is why the Japanese lost in Burma

[cyan oriole]

yeah, they could spare those ships after the Italians were basically done for

[desert agate]

This is early 1942 mate

HMS Victorious deployed into the frontlines of the Pacific alongside the USN 6 months before the Italian armastice

Even longer if you include her refit period

[cyan oriole]

wait weren't ships being withdrawn from the east indes fleet in 1942?

they were busy walking into madagascar

[desert agate]

Yes but that was because the USN was around to keep Kido Butai busy

Do you think the RN would draw down forces when it was facing the IJNs main force?

[cyan oriole]

even if the RN transferred forces from the Atlantic and the Med, they would still be heavily outnumbered

[desert agate]

The British had more battleships present at the Indian Ocean raid than the IJN did

[cyan oriole]

yeah but those were antiques

and that was an air engagement

battleship forces not the most useful there

[desert agate]

The British yes, only had 2 carriers (they planned on having 3 but one ran aground) but the RN also had the advantage of the RAF on land bases

[cyan oriole]

the Japanese would need a Midway-level fuckup to get the field anywhere close to even

[desert agate]

The famously modern and advanced Kongou class against the famously antique HMS Warspite

[desert agate]

They literally had a Midway level fuckup in the Indian Ocean Raid

[cyan oriole]

yeah and also the very useful R-class battleships

[cyan oriole]

how many carriers were lost

oh, that's right

[desert agate]

I personally do not consider it a stretch of the imagination to consider that they would have done it again

And maybe even again after that

[desert agate]

I would rather be on an R class than a Kongou in that gunnery duel

[cyan oriole]

so it's 6 carriers vs 2 carriers + hurricanes and bombers operating from land

idk about this one chatters

[cyan oriole]

what gunnery duel? any battle in the Indian ocean would be a carrier battle

[maiden citrus]

what's happening in here, there's activity

[cyan oriole]

and if there were a battleship action, it would be some Mediterranean-level "we shoot each other 3 times at 30km and then disengage"

[desert agate]

But as I have already argued, the RN would deploy more forces to the Indian ocean, once Indomitable was repaired they would have a third carrier, plus Victorious on her way

[desert agate]

The battle lines very nearly collided

[cyan oriole]

someone asked "what if the Americans never entered the war, how would the British handle"

[desert agate]

They were absurdly close and basically didn't spot each other by sheer luck (or lack thereof)

[cyan oriole]

yeah, and we saw what happened when battle lines collided in the Med

big things

like shooting each other from 25km with no real results

[desert agate]

Both sides wanted a surface engagement in the Indian Ocean because both sides believed they could win

Unlike in the Med where the Italians were very aware that the moment they saw RN battleships it was in their best interest to leave

[maiden citrus]

they'd be fine navally in europe, much like real life, but they'd probably pull out of the pacific

[desert agate]

If a surface engagement developed in the Indian Ocean it would not go well for the IJN

[cyan oriole]

I mean warspite and 4 antique Rs against 4 Kongos is a clown fiesta either way

[maiden citrus]

those 4 kongos would probably lose tbh

[cyan oriole]

those ships are more suited for jutland than for a modern war

[maiden citrus]

I don't see it being much of a problem there

[desert agate]

Oh yes because the Kongou class is famously modern and prepared for naval engagements against battleships in 1941

[cyan oriole]

yea that's what I said too

[cyan oriole]

I said the same thing

most likely the engagement is completely inconclusive with very few hits scored

just like in the Med

[desert agate]

Please tell me more about your 203mm of belt armour

[cyan oriole]

as if they would hit each other

British gunnery was very impressive in the med, I must say

[desert agate]

Sincerely I do not believe the Japanese would withdraw from that engagement

At least not until they took their first loss

[cyan oriole]

how about Renown causing no real damage to Italian cruisers

even when unfired because Veneto was retiring from the engagement

[desert agate]

The IJN, keep in mind, is the same force which attempted a surface battle at Midway

This is a force which is culturally incapable of retreat until critical losses are sustained

[cyan oriole]

fair enough, they would probably run it in

it's not like the Italians whose priority is to avoid engagement

[desert agate]

Because the Italians recognised that they couldn't win

The Japanese in 1945 still struggled to recognise that

[cyan oriole]

no, it's because the Italians didn't want to engage without numerical superiority

[desert agate]

Yes

That's basically what I said

[cyan oriole]

not exactly

[desert agate]

Thanks for elaborating further

[cyan oriole]

the Italians wanted to win without losses

the Japanese just want some sort of battle

[peak mango]

Some of us have no family anywhere near the PRC and haven't for a century.

[desert agate]

I swear just one more decisive battle and we'll win the war
One more decisive battle guys c'mon

[cyan oriole]

entire axis war effort was just copiumOD

[desert agate]

The last battle wasn't the real decisive battle, the next one is guys I swear

[maiden citrus]

taking bets on which cruisers die harder, the ones with 1'' turret faces and explodium torpedoes or the ones with 1'' box armor magazines

[peak mango]

But that's us 唐人 from the south lol

[cyan oriole]

germany: we just need to win this 1 battle and we will win the war!
japan: we just need to win this 1 battle and we will win the war!
italty: if we sit in port long enough, the fleet in being will cause the British an inconvenience!

[maiden citrus]

now that sounds like a surface battle of silliness

[cyan oriole]

both have 25mm turret faces lmao

[maiden citrus]

in hindsight, yeah

[desert agate]

At least the County class was refit with actual armour belts later on

[peak mango]

They also had a comms failure where the land based RAF didn't provide them fighter cover...

[cyan oriole]

japanese turrets were disabled by destroyer shells off Samar, and British turret faces were 2 half-inch plates fixed together

[maiden citrus]

which side is which, that's the joke

[desert agate]

Singapore was a fiasco, the RAAF (not RAF) was ready and able to provide air cover but it wasn't called upon until it was too late

[cyan oriole]

ooh wait does this scenario mean that Berwick gets to be damaged by 203mm shells from all 3 axis navies?

we're going for a record here

[maiden citrus]

both sides had some truly awful surface ship designs

[peak mango]

Like I said, comms failure.

[desert agate]

It wasn't a communications failure

The communications worked perfectly

[peak mango]

Failure to communicate needs and requirements, rather, not comms equipment failure.

[desert agate]

They just weren't used

[cyan oriole]

they weren't used because Philips believed they weren't available

which is a communications failure

[desert agate]

The admiral in charge of Force Z sincerely believed that no battleship at sea could be lost by air power alone

[cyan oriole]

yeah, but he still wanted air cover

[desert agate]

He had it

[cyan oriole]

he believed he didn't

[desert agate]

Renown literally called for it as she was going down

[cyan oriole]

which is a communications failure

[desert agate]

Which means someone knew about it

[cyan oriole]

too bad the admiral in charge of the fleet believed completely it wasn't available

[cyan oriole]

the Japanese cruisers were pretty ingenious in a way though

[desert agate]

453SQN RAAF was ready and waiting to go

[cyan oriole]

and that's a communcations failure

Phillips had asked for air cover the previous day, but understood that he was told there was no air cover at all

[desert agate]

Phillips refused to liase with his air officers and maintained radio silence

[cyan oriole]

I mean it was believable with how badly the situation was going, that all fighters weretied up somewhere else

[desert agate]

Renown broke orders when she called for support

[cyan oriole]

well by that time the force was detected so it's moot

[maiden citrus]

having a belt angle in areas that reduces your immune zone is ingenius heh

[desert agate]

Just about everyone else in the force knew that air cover was available, somehow he didn't

[cyan oriole]

not confirming that air cover was truly not available was kinda stupid though

[cyan oriole]

that's the funny yamato deck right?

[maiden citrus]

some of the cruisers had it too

it made their armor worth less

due to weird shaping

bismarck turrets are also kinda like that, the immune zone is deceptively small iirc

[cyan oriole]

it's not so bad in the mogamis

because the deck slope is significantly thicker than the central portion

the more pressing issue would be the low height of the armored side

[maiden citrus]

iirc it caused a gigantic weakness in the immune zone against us 6'' shells

[cyan oriole]

more in terms of cramming so much armament onto a hull

[maiden citrus]

well, they had their own trouble with that

[cyan oriole]

well not like that immune zone is great to begin with, considering you have 35 deck

[maiden citrus]

true, just making it worse by such a large amount is kinda goofy

[peak mango]

'refused to liase' == 'failed to talk to' == 'failed to communicate' ..

[cyan oriole]

the 60mm slope doesn't make it worse though lul

[desert agate]

Sure

[cyan oriole]

could maybe increase the height of the main belt and then just use a uniform 45 deck or so

but I suppose they wanted the side armor to stay internal

[desert agate]

POV: Crammed as much armament as possible onto a hull

[cyan oriole]

didn't go well for pola, cornwall, or dorsetshire either

that's what happens when prewar AA meets air attack

the difference being that one of the 5 ships made it back to port

[maiden citrus]

A hit to the yellow, orange, or green trajectories with a Brooklyn 6" shell (post-refit) requires 18-20k yards, but the red deck slope trajectory can be penned at any range above 14k (!)

[desert agate]

Hey Britain, where's your tachymetric fire control system that everyone else uses?

[cyan oriole]

British ships seem to be lost to air attack as quickly as everyone else's

only Americans did better

maybe that's why the Brits adopted the Mark 37 director

[maiden citrus]

I think they were jabbing that british aa fcs were pretty bad

[cyan oriole]

hmm I see

well they did their best

[desert agate]

Their best was worse than everyone else

Except the Italians I suppose

[cyan oriole]

I was going to say

the Italians did their best too, but they were years behind in electronics

the Germans did not do their best

[desert agate]

You have now reached peak County

Took you long enough

Oh dear

[cyan oriole]

peak county is that design from 1938

which was basically a County using modern technology and Southampton hull

also would look more attractive probably

[desert agate]

That would be difficult

County class is peak aesthetic

[cyan oriole]

true

hmm, imagine baltimore hull form but with british block superstructure

that's the ideal croozer

the block superstructure is a riot

[peak mango]

I'm kind of fond of the fletchers ...

[maiden citrus]

I prefer domestic superstructure in most cases

[cyan oriole]

german ships also look decent

[cyan oriole]

yea agreed

[desert agate]

I'm not a fan of German masts

[maiden citrus]

german ones look tough so I tend to like them, the hippers are good looking ships imo for example lol

[peak mango]

But I'm biased towards modern hullforms ..

Though, can you imagine someone in ww2 looking at this?

@ 190m long and 15000t she's basically a heavy cruiser ...

[maiden citrus]

fat even for a cruiser of the time

I do think modern hulls look fine too

[desert agate]

I'm not a fan of stealthy hull designs and I'm glad they're going out of style

Modern naval architecture imo is at its best when it's more jagged, covered in censors and weapons that don't really look like they were part of the original design

Burkes are really nice looking ships imo