history

[supple sandal]

Burmese army being Burmese army

Chinese army

The only person that are reasonable and competent

Is a woman

Not like the lame side character or minor enemy type

But the hot antagonist that would fit in the enemy turn lover trope

And the Chinese helicopter look like it is civilian heli with rocket pod strapped on

Why are you image banned

[autumn sorrel]

Posting DISH Owari art

[supple sandal]

Too spicy?

Anyway

How to detect radio emission

Like anti radiation missile

[timber linden]

https://tenor.com/view/witness-rage-mad-max-gif-4527107021531365595

[covert fractal]

today the Waterloo campaign started in 1815, but i am too lazy to write about it right now

[cobalt dome]

[runic ermine]

210 years ago

[covert fractal]

i remember it like if it was just yesterday❤️

[tribal mortar]

Idk if this counts as history but here's a pic of the concord

And some WW2 fighters

[mental tapir]

Still kinda funny to me how Germany and Japan tried to make their radial engined fighters that little bit more streamlined with a small nose cone while the US was like "Nah, the stub is fine"

[muted dove]

Why didn't US support/invest in recontruction and development of (democratic/political institutions in) middle eastern countries they went to war with (like afganistan/iraq/syria) the way they did in Japan post ww2?
Wouldn't this have enabled far stronger and stable allies for them in the middle east? (like japan and south korea are today/have been for east asia)

[tribal mortar]

Prob still mad at them for 911

More interesting planes

[zealous vine]

Was there any evidence of a Japanese 20cm/55?

[zealous vine]

Weren't insurgents still rampant?

Also, I think it may have been to do with what institutions there had already been built between the 2 regions

Japan already had the resources and contemporary advancements to rebuild, unlike some of the Middle East

[muted dove]

Sorry if I'm wrong, since my history knowledge of that region is weak,
but ISIS appeared around ~2013, while iraq was invaded in 2003, so were 10 years in between,
and I thought Saddam Hussein's dictatorship wouldn't have allowed insurgent groups to exist, so immediately after the invasion there shouldn't have been any insurgent groups (at least at the start of the 10 year span I mentioned)?

[muted dove]

ohh true, I didnt consider that

[tribal mortar]

On planes?

No there wasn't any japanese aircraft

It's the Paris airshow btw

[zealous vine]

Sorry, I was asking something entirely irrelevant

Mainly to ascertain some hearsay about an improved 20cm gun with /55 instead of /50

[zealous vine]

Japan was also a relatively structured and civilized society

They were practically historical enemies with the soviets as well, while some parts of the Middle East had or still retained ties with the Union

Controlling Japan meant that their presence extended to that of East Asia, just in-case the Soviets expanded there (China and Korea)

[zealous vine]

Anyway

[frozen kestrel]

Really quick question: I'm working on a story (this part is set between late '86-early '88) and one of the things I've written into it is an organization tied directly to the British government that works with the Royal Navy often enough to be considered their own branch. I want to give them their own little flagship (Nothing too special, just an offshore patrol vessel).

I've been looking at OPVs that were active in the 80's and debating whether I should give them a Castle-class or an Island-class. What would make more sense?
Either way, it's going to be an addition to the respective class, and I'm going to name it Damocles

[autumn sorrel]

Bc Japan society was more homogeneous and after the Emperor surrendered, US Force have much easier time dismantling all of old Imperial Japan institutions and clean up their government enough for a transition to a democracy system. That and the fact that IJA and IJN were totally demobilized with their weapons confiscated or destroyed so there is no local warlord.

Middle East is far from unify. Even in Iraq you have at least 3 major group try to kill each other on the basic of race and religion. The fact US Army failed to eradicate the Fedayeen and alienated the former Iraqi Army and Republicans Guard mean that there are a lot of men with weapons and grudge against the West to continue the Insurgency in those region.

Frankly, the idea of somehow American can build a democracy in the Middle East by pretending that just bc you organize a vote mean you have a democratic government is hilarious. It is a view that very much based on the assumption that Western Liberalism is the ultimate form of government and try to force Middle East countries into that mold show how careless it is of America when they failed to take into the consider of the complex society and historical legacy that shape the region.

[autumn sorrel]

Those 10 yrs are some of the worst time in Iraq with Insurgency run rampant. It was Saddam rule that allow the post Saddam Insurgents to have such effectiveness. They were remnant of Saddam Fedayeen militia that was either die hard Baathist or Saddam loyalist that keeps on fighting long even after his death. Not to mention a large number of ex Iraqi Army and Republicans Guard that angered at being sidelined when US decided to disband all of Iraq Armed Force instead of integrating them to the new regime so they either carve out small fiefdom or join in with the insurgency. And then you have the Kurds basically turn Northern Iraq into their own “not nation state but pretty much the same thing”, it fuel the tension as most group ignore the gov that US propped up in Baghdad bc frankly they were pretty much powerless back then.

There is no unify post invasion government that command the entire country for US to work with. Not to mention their society is highly tribalism so even if you somehow manage have a strong central government then it is still very much depend on local chiefs to actually get things done.

[narrow rover]

Apparently Japanese PoWs and some Australians

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, I don't think Japan have the right to talk about POW treatment.

[narrow rover]

Nah it's the hand position

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wise_monkeys

It's the three wise monkeys posture

Kinda surprising they knew this

[narrow rover]

I mean the simple-est answer is that countries like Japan and Germany were developed modern nations at the time
Most counties in the middle east, are not.

Honestly though the most baffling thing about the Iraq occupation is that the US simply seem to have... lost the ability to manipulate local powers to their advantage like they did in Japan after WW2

[runic ermine]

It very much does

[desert agate]

So the thing is, they did, at least in Afghanistan
The issue with Iraq is that the Americans, and by extension the coalition, went to war without actually planning out the occupation phase of operations
Troops more or less went from fighting the Iraqi army and irregular units, to occupation duty immediately after the collapse of the Iraqi army, without any guidance or instruction for how to do so

This issue primarily came down to the Bush administration, and more specifically Donald Rumsfeld, believing that an occupation would not only be unnecessary but also that the forces available to the invasion would be sufficient to hold the ground while the Iraqi government re-established control

CENTCOM basically immediately started withdrawing troops out of the theatre after the fall of the Iraqi government, and even downgraded the Theatre level command to an operational level command, severely limiting the ability of the commanders in Iraq, and their troops to understand the developing situation, and to control it

For a nation such as Iraq, and considering the (comparatively) tiny force that had actually done the fighting, a reasonable occupation policy would have involved deploying considerably more troops to the theatre immediately after the cessation of formal hostilities.

American civil occupation authorities also showed a complete disregard for Iraqi culture and society. Paul Bremer first disbanded the entire Iraqi army, which realistically could have been the occupation force. These now unemployed, unpaid and trained fighters basically immediately joined the insurgent movements. Bremer also ordered that the Iraqi people be disarmed, an entirely unreasonable request which inflamed tensions even more, particularly among the Shia population who the Coalition planned to lean upon for support in the new government.

This order to disarm particularly inflamed the Shia because Sunni death squads were roaming Shia areas, massacring people, and the Shia needed those arms to protect their communities. British forces in the South in fact announced that they wouldn't enforce that order to avoid enflaming tensions (unfortunately without much success, the damage had been done)

[mental tapir]

TIL HMS Orion's cat has a very... Gamer name

[zealous vine]

Interesting

[junior trench]

the administration of the time tried to fight a war without raising taxes for it and the US has literally been paying for it ever since

the positive budgetary effects of the entire peace dividend basically disappeared and then some

[zealous vine]

I've been scouring to find any light shed on this design (Google, Shipbucket, Naval Encyclo, this club), is there a reference in Lacroix or Jane's?

[junior trench]

Friedman US Cruisers page 249

Also it's mildly amusing to see just how unoriginal SB art can be

[zealous vine]

God bless

I'm just gonna mark here for future ref.. 4000t US scout cruiser 5"

[eternal veldt]

I think Karle94's idea is to replicate the design rather than add his own flavour, unless you are referring to some never were stuff.

[cobalt dome]

Guys today is another important great day to remember, it's 81 year mark of the Batlle of the Philippines Sea, where Shokaku and Taihou get destroyed by US submarines first 4 torpedoes and second with just one torpedoe alongside a very bad crew on damage control alongside the design of the carrier that make it even worse too

https://youtu.be/79F_Mu4-oQk?si=mYrRX33VC8bce4yg

Indeed

[mental tapir]

Tomorrow; it began 19th June, no?

[narrow rover]

The disarming was also done in Germany from what I recall
In Japan though everyone freaked the fuck out for some reason and people were allowed to have swords as long as they proved it was one with artistic value
So you can have your 200 year old family sword but not the average gunto

[junior trench]

you'll note the difference between total disarmament and only disarming part of the population along sectarian lines

[zealous vine]

What project was it related to? Was it a prelim? Some tit-for-tat response design?

[eternal veldt]

I think you wanted to ping Kal'tsit instead, but here's the section for reference.

[zealous vine]

Wait so 507 either came in 6"/47 at 35kn or 5"/54 at 39kn? I thought they were 5"/38

[eternal veldt]

I missed a page.

I think yes - but 5"/54 is preferred.

[spring briar]

USN Leander

Oh the humanity

[maiden citrus]

not enough armor

[eternal veldt]

Maka would be fine with a 7 knot ship if it came with a 21" slab of armour /s

[maiden citrus]

make it 12 knots and we have a deal

[spring briar]

No need go fast when tough

[maiden citrus]

destroyer has become monitor

[spring briar]

This is Maka’s dream

(Little building is hotdog stand)

[maiden citrus]

very true

[zealous vine]

Siiick

Were the floatplanes just craned onto sea?

[eternal veldt]

Could be, based on what the print suggests - or could just be stowed on a catapult.

[cobalt dome]

Oh yeah my bad one day early
Well see you tomorrow about it

[zealous vine]

Where are Norfolk's torps, I've read they were "fixed" onto the hull

I can't seem to find a pic with them on deck.

[autumn sorrel]

Man, I love the fact that there was once a time where quad 1.1 is consider good enough for AA.

[maiden citrus]

it's pretty decent, just not the phenomenal weapon that is the US redesigned bofors

[autumn sorrel]

Well, Bofors is just king. The fact that it still pretty much in use to this day and form the basis for other systems speak volume of how good the designs was.

[zealous vine]

I need glasses

[eternal veldt]

In the aft superstructure. Granted, these are of Mitscher rather than Norfolk.

[supple sandal]

The last F-14 are about to get shot to bits

Or new Ace Combat protagonist about to show up

[junior trench]

Quirky HE rounds designed to still go off against fabric covered aircraft

[maiden citrus]

pretty much all of its problems were fixed before it was phased out, or fixable, it's a much better weapon than given credit for (which I've often argued here), and yeah, it had fuses so sensitive they could supposedly even be set to go off hitting water

[spring briar]

Which they made a little less sensitive later on to avoid prematures

[covert fractal]

Battle of Waterloo. 1815

the Battle of Waterloo, the last important battle of the Napoleonic Wars, marking the end of the hundred days and the end of Napoleon’s reign over France.

the battle, facing principally Prussia and the United Kingdom, it was one of the biggest battles of europe before ww1, with around 74,000 French soldiers at the command of Michael Ney and Napoleon Bonaparte, against around 125,000 anglo-prussian soldiers at the command of the Duke of Wellington, Arthur Wellesley and Gebhard Leberecht Von Blücher.

June 15

as the Waterloo campaign started, the forces of the II Corps, the only ones who made it to Marchiennes without delay, commanded by the general Charles Reille, faced the Prussian forces of the Lieutenant-general Hanz Zieten on the Belgian borders with France. Zieten opposed a strong resistance against the French forces, but they finally withdrew at noon. the French forces chase Zieten forces at Charleroi, where he took cover. the general Claude Pajol made a cavalry charge, but without infantry support. that made the charge fail on the firsts tries, forcing Napoleon itself to take the control of the bridges that cross the Sambre river.

meanwhile, the IV Corps, commanded by the general Louis Burmout, cross the bridges of the Sambre river at Châtelet. but, the general Burmout suddenly desert, abandoning his troops on Châtelet, sowing confussion over the soldiers of the IV Corps. Burmout reveal the movement plan of the French Empire to high rank Prussian officers.

even with all adversities, the French forces take their positions successfully after crossing the Sambre river, the French soldiers, pointing at the city of Charleroi and Fleurus. it wasnt until the night, during the Duchess of Richmond ball, where the Duke of Wellington get notified about the quick movements of Napoleon, by the Prince of Orange. he quickly retired from the ball, ordering his officers to do the same and join quickly to their regiments immediately.

June 16

the army of the Duke of Wellington head to the town of Quatre Bras, that had a road directly with the town of Ligny, where the prussian army stationed their forces, where the english and the prussians made a communication system through both towns.

at 14:00 hours, the French army commanded by Michael Ney attack the army of Wellington at Quatre bras, and later, at 14:30 hours, Napoleon attack the town of Ligny. Quatre Bras did not fall, the battle was inconclusive, but the French cut off all the roads leading to Ligny, making impossible to Wellington to go and aid the prussian forces. Ligny falls at 17:00 hours, the French forces defeat Blücher army at Ligny, after a bloody battle where the prussian army lost around 25,000 soldiers, the french only around 6,000. the Prussian army start retreating to Sombreffe.

June 17

the French army, commanded by the general Grouchy, chase the Prussian army. the previous rain and the many roads and paths where the Prussian army splitted their forces made confussion in Grouchy, not sure on which roads pass.

after a very rainy morning, at 10:00 hours, Wellington finally abandon Quatre Bras and start heading to the locality of Waterloo. Ney followed the Wellington retreat, Napoleon joined Ney in the chasing to Waterloo.

[covert fractal]

(i was going to send the June 18 movements but it didnt sent due to “being innapropiate”)

like wtf

to not leave it incomplete im gonna make a summary

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfETwzo1K-Q

[covert fractal]

June 18

during the Prussian retreat, Blücher promise wellington to aid him with at least three army corps. Wellington abandon Quatre Bras due to its bad position after the rain the last night, the movements of his army are slow due to the mud. Wellington retreat to Waterloo and settle defend in the farms of Hougoumont, La Haye Sainte and papelotte

the French attack hougoumont, failing numerous times as the day passes. the French made an attack in La Haye Sainte, making many divisions fall. the british hold La Haye with many cavalry charges.

Napoleon suddenly abandon the battlefield. in the middle of the confussion, Ney order the whole IV Corps cavalry to charge against the british, who were in a square formation. the attack fails and at the same time, the prussian forces appear in the battlefield

the French old guard start retreating, when the less experimented soldiers start panicking and they break their formation to start running while screaming “La Garde Recule! Sauve qui peut!” (the guard retreats! everyone for himself!”. the French suffer heavy loses on the panick as the english and the prussians keep advancing.

the most experimented soldiers stand still against the enemy in La Haye Sainte farm that they took hours ago. Wellington told the last defenders to surrender, the general Pierre Cambronne reply: “La Garde Meurt, elle ne se rend pas!” (the guard dies, not surrender!)

the prussian army take the town of Plancenoit, the Young Guard lost the 70% of its privates on this combat, forcing the retreat.

after hours, Napoleon finally retreat, leaving many injured soldiers behind along with some that couldnt escape. France lost around 38,000 soldiers while the anglo-prussian alliance lost 24,000. days after, Blücher take versailles, forcing Napoleon to surrender and abdicate the throne, being exhiled to the Isle of Saint Helena.

[runic ermine]

The Wae of 1812 started today 213 years ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

[tacit sage]

Don’t you mean 213?

[runic ermine]

Yes

[tacit sage]

[zealous vine]

[zealous vine]

I see them

[eternal veldt]

Dont know why Gaijin did it that way, they should be square hole covers as your photos showed

But really, that's Gaijin

[cobalt dome]

https://youtu.be/79F_Mu4-oQk?si=mYrRX33VC8bce4yg

Indeed

[rapid cairn]

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=145276

there's so little stuff about Huah Jah that I kinda feel bad about her

how did Manjuu even manage to find this specific ship

the best article i could find about the irl ship is from a forum back in 2008

https://www.tynebuiltships.co.uk/C-Ships/china1900.html?

this too

Hmmm

maybe i should make a wikipedia article about her

[muted dove]

vietnam seems to strongly favour US over China? I thought they would hate them after the war + they are communist, can someone explain how did they end up pro US?

[spring briar]

“Muh surrender country”

[desert agate]

Germany didn’t have sectarian death squads roaming the countryside

[desert agate]

Because America is not a traditional opponent of Vietnam
China has invaded and subjugated Vietnam countless times, more notably China also tried to invade Vietnam immediately after the Americans withdrew, this basically permanently soured any ‘communist brotherhood’ that the two nations might have enjoyed, Vietnam firmly entered the Soviet side of the Sino-Soviet split and after the fall of the USSR, the Vietnamese took a more pragmatic approach to diplomacy

America might have bombed Vietnam to smithereens but they also brought money and investment decades later which the Chinese never did

[remote monolith]

although they did have political death squads roaming the countryside

[autumn sorrel]

You also need to into consideration the propaganda of VCP for the last 40 yrs. Even until now, all document that mentioned Vietnam War always use the derision words like "American Imperialist", but that is light compare to anti China propaganda. Our history book basically paint China as the one big bad villain that responsible for most of the woes in Vietnam history. Funnily enough, history class are divide into 50% learning about Vietnam history, 25% World history and 25% China history.

[autumn sorrel]

Frankly, for a nation that basically exhausted itself over decades of war and an Army that a shadow of it former self, Napoleon and Grande Armee still managed to prove why they were Master of Europe at one point.

I would love to theorize a situation if Napoleon did won at Waterloo and managed to crush all of coalition incursion into France. Would he seek peace like before so France can rebuild and recoup or would he continue with the momentum and wage war against the coalition?

[remote monolith]

he's not going to win even if he won at Waterloo

France already exhausted its reserves by that point while the Coalition, even if their armies were defeated, would regroup and be determined to take him down because he's just proven he's literally unable to accept a loss

[autumn sorrel]

Was it a worse situation than the Revolutionay War?

[remote monolith]

it was a direct consequence of the Revolutionary War, plus the multitude of wars afterwards up until 1815

when Napoleon was defeated at Waterloo he basically had no other army to use

that was his one shot

[autumn sorrel]

But what if he won, what if he continue to win after Waterloo?

[remote monolith]

then he still had to deal with increasing manpower shortage

[autumn sorrel]

Also Todd, why are you Imam now?

[remote monolith]

again, even if he won at Waterloo, the only people he fought there was a single British Army and a Prussian Army, the Austrians, the Russians and the other German states hadn't even joined in

he can't be everywhere at once, all the Coalition had to do was to hold him off with one army, and the others could simply walk past and take Paris

the Great Powers already agreed Napoleon was a danger that needs to be gone, permanently

[remote monolith]

just forgot to change from Ramadan

like look at this map

he's not going to stop all of them at once

[autumn sorrel]

Damn, French Army of the Rhine down to number of 2 division vs multiple corp size formation?

[remote monolith]

yep

that's how BAD France's situation was

[spring briar]

At best Napoleon could’ve extended the French borders up to the Rhine in the peace treaties

But thats a big hypothetical

[runic ermine]

Yall just gotta be the French that the Chinese think you are. Not the French that the Americans (mainly post Bush) think you are

Or be the French that Quebec thinks you are

[narrow rover]

France could have been the hero of WW2, single handedly halting the German invasion and holding off what could have been another global war... but goddamn did they get supremely unlucky

[runic ermine]

1/3rd of their Army killed, wounded, or captured in 6 weeks

Also a large portion of the navy was captured

[paper bramble]

Gearing did the job better than this thing in 4.7

and came earlier too!

Gaijin should add this before the Iowa for US dd (same Br as Moffett)

[autumn sorrel]

Well, many reason:

1. Economy, while China remained Vietnam biggest trade partner, American are more willing to bring money and investment to Vietnam than Chinese ever did. Trade with China is kinda one side to Vietnam where cheap Chinese product often compete with Vietnam also cheap but a bit lesser in quality product. The situation has somewhat improved in the last decade with Trade War and China political turmoil push western companies and other manufacturer to other place to open factory and Vietnam reap the reward by being closest to China to there barely any change to the logistic system.

2. Plain old blood feud, 2000yrs if you take VCP propaganda but imo it is more like a bit over 1000yrs of history between 2 nations. It is not always War and Conflict, there were even a time when Vietnam monarch very much look toward China as a place to learn and model our nation after, even our culture are heavily influence by Hans Culture. But Vietnamese are very much independent minded and somewhat xenophobic at time. All of Vietnam dynasty and regime has always been firm in the fact that Vietnam is an independent country and not a vassal state nor a province of China. That and every Chinese dynasty tried at least one or two time trying to invade Vietnam. Therefore Vietnamese have a severe case of Sinophobia.

3. American culture have many impact on Vietnam society. Ever since the 1995 and before 1975 in South Vietnam, American culture and lifestyle have penetrate into Vietnam society. Their way of life promise or at least paint a picture of a life that Vietnamese very much like. American Dream, some would say it is false promise but it is certainly an allured one. Vietnam using a Latin based writing system also help propagated American influence. English is even a compulsory 2nd language that every school in Vietnam must teach since junior high school so Vietnamese are more or less feel more comfortable talking with American than with Chinese whose language might as well from another continent.

[autumn sorrel]

4. Spoon did mention China invade Vietnam, it is somewhat right but it does downplay somewhat why Vietnamese feel such betrayed. China invade Vietnam in 1979 to support their Khmer Rouge ally, the same one that have been conducting border raid into Vietnam since 1975 and the same one that make no secret of their intention to genocide Vietnamese. The Vietnamese Politburo have no illusion that China is Vietnam ally after 1975 but they have been maintained a neutral stance during the Sino-Soviet split. The Cambodian problem has been something a major thorn in Vietnam side ever since the end of Vietnam War but it was consider a local problem in South East Asia and not in China sphere of influence in Vietnam thinking. VCP was expecting a Chinese protest or at most an offer to be meditator to broker peace when Vietnam decide to counter attack and depose Pol Pot in 1979. The shock of the Chinese invasion is worse than that of a border dispute bc it create a thinking in Vietnam that not only China is not a "fellow comrade" but also someone who seek the destruction of Vietnam independent and make Vietnam into a puppet.

Frankly, the politics behind 1979 War is complicated and Vietnam also have some fault in antagonizing China but for a country that sacrifice so much for independent, it is hard to distinguish between a war to advance a political agenda of Deng Xiaoping vs a war to save your nation from those that seek its destruction. It also not help that the current leader of Vietnam are veteran of 79' War and the Border skirmishes in the 80s, they really don't trust China one bit. American might be enemy 50 yrs ago but to Vietnam consciousness, it easier to forgive someone that give you a blackeye over stupid dispute than a backstabber that smile while stabbing you.

Tldr; Vietnamese hate Chinese so much that we don't care about ideology differences or any past grievances with America.

[zealous vine]

I'm going to guess either the torpedoes are stored in the aft upper superstructure (deduced from the lack of railing) or behind that square cover on the forward superstructure

Im betting it's aft

[paper bramble]

But modern torps in this game is not able to steer yet, so torps are kinda gei (except for Japanese torps)

U would use this dd to have a gun duel with other dds, and farm sl

[tacit sage]

I mean, a torp is very easy to steer if someone’s inside it directing it

[paper bramble]

Sakura flying bomb when

[eternal veldt]

They are behind the square cover. You literally see the eight tubes arranged in the same pattern as Mitscher.

[covert fractal]

my boy should’ve winned☹️

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3lrytia3uuk25

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

#OTD in 1944, "The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot" began during the Battle of the Philippine Sea. U.S. pilots and A.A. gunners destroyed 600+ enemy aircraft. Flying a Grumman F6F Hellcat, Navy ace Lt. Alex Vraciu shot down 6 dive bombers in 8 minutes.

Bluesky · Jun 20, 2025, 12:58 AM

[timber linden]

To be fair napoleon padded his numbers against the Austrians.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIla-eK5FQc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfPbaFVnzxU

[narrow rover]

It's funny that Dresden is remembered as the big bombing, when Hamburg was bombed way heavily

[spring briar]

But we did

Granted it was a fucking fluke

But hey

[narrow rover]

https://youtu.be/wGkcHI2P0_w?si=4Yj5NqKM2y13TcUr

1940 was when western and Japanese relations was firmly in the toilet, but it's quite interesting the stuff here is introduced quite... cheerfully by the narrator

[cinder escarp]

The saar offensive was 10/10 funni tho

[timber linden]

Saar

[remote monolith]

Thank Goebbels

[desert agate]

Really thank the Soviets

Goebbels obviously started it but it's not like Nazi propaganda wasn't effectively destroyed in the West

But a lot of the modern understanding of Dresden comes from the Soviets basically repeating Nazi propaganda against the West

[remote monolith]

Not completely, considering organizations like HIAG were active for a good number of years and people like Franz Halder actively promoting damaging myths to western discourses

Also, David Irving and inadvertently Kurt Vonnegut

The former being VERY damaging because he used to be a legitimate historian that hid his Nazi connections and beliefs very well

[eternal veldt]

You called?

This shit was sitting next to Neptune's Inferno some 8 years ago, what a disgrace

[remote monolith]

some of his books are still relatively solid I think

iirc it was the Virus House among other things

although even that is marred when you consider he got these surprisingly accurate materials from his Nazi circles pulling out records they hid

[runic ermine]

What's a war during the cold war that you guys think doesn't get talked about enough?

I myself would say the FLQ insurgency

[zealous vine]

I thought the smokestacks blocked the way

[ashen furnace]

Does anyone know of any Canadian Army regiments that trace lineage back to this unit?

[junior trench]

I don't think there would be any, considering it remains solely a Royal Airforce unit with 1:1 lineage

[urban crescent]

Yeah no Canada disbanded alot of units post world wars and that one was very much likely one of them.

[urban crescent]

It's definitely not an RCAF badge either

[narrow rover]

The Chinese Civil War

[covert fractal]

today, the German troops invade the Soviet Union in 1941, breaking the non-agression treatment of Germany with the Soviet Union

[narrow rover]

Today, shit hit the ceiling fan

And for Europe, it will not stop hitting for another three years

[vital hornet]

Hey im reading a book about port nickleson, what german u boat attacked that port

[runic ermine]

I've never seen that badge before

[junior trench]

Thankfully there's text written on it making finding out easy

[runic ermine]

Yes

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3lsbw5iingc2v

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

It's National Pink Day. USS Saratoga is probably the only warship to have a pink head. The pink bathroom was the result of crewmen applying a coat of white paint before the red primer was dry. Navy regs authorized light pastel colors, so the head was left pink for a few years.

Bluesky · Jun 23, 2025, 3:40 PM

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3lscaerp3zc26

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

#OTD in 1943, Rep. Andrew May bragged to reporters that the Japanese were setting depth charges too shallow because they didn't know how deep U.S. subs could dive. VADM Charles Lockwood said the revelation caused the Japanese to adjust, costing the Navy 10 subs and 800 sailors.

Bluesky · Jun 23, 2025, 6:43 PM

[zealous vine]

What would the twin housing of a 5"/54 mk16 looked like? Would it be more akin to the polygonal shape of previous turrets or smoother like the following ones?

Oh nvm

So earlier twin housing, meant for Monty, were /38 like; later housing evolved into more of a Mk 42 design for cruisers, destroyers alike

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/usn-cl-154-anti-aircraft-light-cruiser.40168/ oh great

[runic ermine]

Did Australian and New Zealand soldiers wear the same uniform in Vietnam?

[grave tiger]

Yeah they have the same color pattern which is "Jungle Green" which is standard for Commonwealth Troops in Vietnam

[grave ravine]

@delicate beacon can you tell me a bit more about the Heeneman Pantserkruiser

[runic ermine]

But did they wear something to tell the Aussies from the Kiwis

[grave tiger]

The distinction is their button style on their uniforms

[runic ermine]

Or maybe its that black thing

Idk what its called

And I don't think it was always worn

[grave tiger]

Yes that button and also not to mention that they have different color blends for JG uniforms

[runic ermine]

Oh ok now that makes sense
https://vietnamwar.govt.nz/photo/royal-new-zealand-artillery-cravat

Its called a cravat

Quoting the source "Similar black scarves were worn by soldiers of Victor 1 Company and Victor 2 Company RNZIR. They featured a small kiwi motif and were used as a formal dress item and on operations to distinguish both Victor companies from the Australian troops they served with."

[runic ermine]

It is hard to notice?

[grave tiger]

Yea because Commonwealth JG has the same color

Their equipment as well is hard to differentiate

[grave tiger]

Yep that's their identification to differ themselves from Australian forces

[runic ermine]

But I don't think that they always wore them, judging from photos. So maybe only for joint operations

[grave tiger]

Yeah mostly being deployed in combat but I think they have patches to help them identify

[desert agate]

It depends on the uniform but the answer to your question is yes and no

[spring briar]

Sang doesn’t talk in this server
You’ll have to DM him

Hi spon

[desert agate]

New Zealand uniforms were manufactured in New Zealand to New Zealand specifications, as were Australian uniforms

New Zealand uniforms were primarily based on the British 1960 patter tropical short and trousers

However there were a number of combat uniforms issued to New Zealand troops, including Australian manufactured uniforms as required

It simply depended on the time period and the unit

New Zealanders also wore a distinct boonie hat

[desert agate]

[runic ermine]

Any images of that?

[subtle prawn]

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c335406gxdvo

[desert agate]

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=New+Zealand+uniforms+in+Vietnam

[terse mesa]

https://youtu.be/GDZjtUJPB2E?si=L15zzwjzXNFFkDTq

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3lshdfsczxk22

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

#OTD in 1942, the Japanese destroyer Yamakaze was torpedoed and sunk by USS Nautilus (SS-168) about 60 nautical miles from the coast of Japan. Yamakaze had sunk USS Shark (SS-174) a few months earlier. This photo was taken through the periscope of the Nautilus.

Bluesky · Jun 25, 2025, 7:20 PM

[tacit sage]

Any of you guys like to listen to Dan Carlin's history podcasts?

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqEHITHDC6Y

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3lsjumgtw5c27

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

#OTD in 1942, the Grumman F6F Hellcat flew for the first time. The F6F would become the most successful Navy fighter of WWII, with Hellcat pilots claiming 5,163 victories and a 19:1 kill-to-loss ratio.

Bluesky · Jun 26, 2025, 7:34 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1938759664935559566

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

The most frequently used ship names in US Navy history are USS Ranger (10), USS Enterprise (9), USS Washington (9), USS Wasp (9), USS Hornet (8), USS Morris (8), and USS Niagra (8). The US Navy also has an experimental unmanned surface vessel in Ghost Fleet Overlord named USV Ranger. The Royal Navy and its predecessors have had 39 vessels bearing the name Swallow.
︀︀#FunFactFriday

**💬 10 🔁 36 ❤️ 188 👁️ 4.4K **

FxTwitter · Jun 28, 2025, 12:41 AM

[versed tree]

To reciprocate for their kind reception in the Washington, the Renown presented the ship with five hundred pounds of ration sau-sage. Johnny Brown and Chet Cox took one bite when it was served for breakfast and shoved the rest aside. No one could eat it, and a quick examination revealed that it had been cut with sawdust as a wartime economy measure. After breakfast it all went over the side into a garbage lighter.

[tribal mortar]

French amphibious assault ship Mistral

In Copenhagen

[runic ermine]

Why do some Americans view the War of 1812 as a Second War of Independence or a Second Revolution

Also when did they start referring to it as such

[timber linden]

British were not repecting our sovereignty by drafting our seamen. We reminded them we are not thier subjects.

[runic ermine]

Didn't impressment end 4 days after the war started?

[autumn sorrel]

It doesn't matter, British forces still landing on American soil and US Army still crossing Canadian Border.

It doesn't matter if the justification was the press gang of American Sailor, tension have been boiling before that and conflict was innevitable.

[narrow rover]

1933 recruitment poster(?), IJN

[supple sandal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YuBV31MT2U

[zealous vine]

I've but a single faint memory of reading something about an enlarged Admiral Hipper class with 11" guns

Anyone got an idea?

[runic ermine]

So something had to keep the war justifiable to the American public?

Because of the Federalists being very against the war

[opal aspen]

The p class? It's got 6 11" guns

[zealous vine]

Not the p klasse

[opal aspen]

Is it from wow

[zealous vine]

Nope

From a website I'm trying to recall but fail to

[opal aspen]

Oh

That's awfully specific

[terse mesa]

https://youtu.be/tdIK3JFIWNI?si=5A48XgRtSHQ2PI48

[eternal veldt]

Bird Models

I think that says it all -likely pure fiction, but I'll do some digging.

[cobalt dome]

https://youtu.be/-Nt17NRanG0?si=VkOKAKdjoKMSO000

[cobalt dome]

It would better to have much more AA then nuclear fighter jets

[narrow rover]

Hiroshima 1945.

Apparently the wrecked city was something of a morbid spectacle at the time.

[autumn sorrel]

Honestly, they don't even need to keep justify the war after the war broke, even Federalist become the minority with public sentiment shift more toward continue the war. If anything, they need a reason to justify the peace talk. American enthusiasm to liberate Canada was quite tempered by series of defeat along the border and the stalemate at the Great Lake while British initial success lose it momentum after Plattsburgh and a prolong war with America will hurt British economically.

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, it not like it isn't something out of the norm for Japan Cities at the time. City that got firebombed basically look more or less the same.

[narrow rover]

The A-bomb does more... concentrated damage iirc

While the regular incendiary bombs do less severe damage over a wider area

[autumn sorrel]

Well, you could say that the kill count from Atomic bomb is much worse bc you basically vaporize anyone in the 3.5km diameter. Less chance to run than firebomb

[narrow rover]

Probably the Hiroshima bomb killed more people than it had any right to due to a combination of population density etc

If you simulate the drop on NUKEMAP
And use Kyoto as a target
Which was the original target before some higher ups stepped in and said no
It actually kills less
Around 90,000 vs just over 60,000

[zealous vine]

That may be an entirely different clause just mentioning his reputation

[autumn sorrel]

Tbf, Kyoto is always a symbolic target, it doesn't have any strategic military target that could remotely justify bombing and while I think that letting politician stopping you from bombing enemy just bc he had vacation there once is dumb, 2 A bomb dropped back to back is more than enough to spook the Emperor.

[narrow rover]

Stimsons intervention is what is known
I'm more interested in what is unknown tbh

Because trying to protect artifacts and such was what the US and the Allies did to a point

The Italian campaign for example

[autumn sorrel]

Probably also to maybe not harm the Emperor. There is greater than zero chance that the Emperor might be in Kyoto to avoid the firebombing in Tokyo. While most of US High Command might think that Tojo is the overall leader of Japan, Stimsons tenure in Japan could have provide insight into how the Imperial Family was the tie breaker and the one who control behind the scene.

The Authority of the Emperor during ww2 is either downplay as him being the puppet of the military or he is the mastermind behind all of them. More nuance take would be that he is acting like how his ancestor did before since the beginning of the dual court between the Shogunate and Imperial Court.

Even when Meiji use Satsuma and Choshu to topple the Shogunate and return to Imperial rule, he very much have to styled himself as the power broker and the neutral referee between each new faction in Japanese gov. All side will want to appease him and protect him at the same time they fight each other. Does the Imperial Family have power? They do but it is not absolute. Even if the Navy and Army hate each other guts and cannot decide on a common strategic, they still defer to Hirohito decision. But Hirohito cannot show overt favor toward any side nor can he censured them publicly for rebellious action like Kwan Tung Army actions and countless coup and killing between IJA and IJN.

In a way, IJA and IJN infighting sound more like a product of Imperial Family machination to prevent a new shogunate. Is it bad for Japan over expansion, sort of but it is greatly benefit the Emperor? Absolutely.

So, by scaring the Emperor and show him that his military has failed and any future resistance will only end in total destruction of Japan, you have one person that can stop IJN and IJA from being stubborn ass and to admit that surrender is the only option left. Killing the Emperor basically will have the reverse effect where his death will prompt Japan into a suicidal mood that more than likely result in them fight to the death to fulfil the duty that propaganda and tradition have beaten into their psyche.

[narrow rover]

Probably one of the many reasons the Americans decided to leave Hirohito alone after WW2 was that ambiguity they just couldn't be arsed to go through

Hirota Koki took the blame essentially.
If it wasn't for him, it would probably have been Konoe Fumimaro

[autumn sorrel]

Funny how Mcunter would be so petty as to trialed the generals that beat him fair and square but then turn around and style himself as the reformer of Japan.

Not that I am defending IJA or IJN higher up but IMTFE let a lot of warcriminals off the hook because they are useful.

[narrow rover]

Looking at civilian papers that academics wrote in regards to "what to do with Japan"

What was suggested, seems to have been done

Well, aside from some territorial clauses

The mid 1947 peace draft (I call this the maximalist draft because it gave Japan a lot of territory) called for the return of the southern Kurile islands to Japan, but this one was obviously not accomplished thanks to a certain Stalin...

[cobalt dome]

Indeed and there still tensions over those islands north of Japan

https://youtu.be/JS2p1eUeuAs?si=0xOgKByjd0OQwIGf

[cobalt dome]

https://youtu.be/Hyaahx6eTjo?si=bpa0WuMdQXX3DwDC

I never knew this

[cobalt dome]

No wonder it was literally a tier 3 cruiser vs tier 9 BB

[runic ermine]

Didn't the Federalists lose any political power they had left after the Hartford Convention?

[terse mesa]

https://youtu.be/Li4PNLKrw9g?si=DWnkp1qNTHRW9Tei

[desert agate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcb1d0z80wo&ab_channel=RoyalAustralianNavy

[desert agate]

the video game is not in fact real life

[terse mesa]

https://youtu.be/SQIdRNSdgQ0?si=f05ZIc8HubiWYN4i

[cobalt dome]

Yes I know, but that first comment I saw on that video comment section.
But yeah that was overkill to use an Iowa for such small warship, when we all know both Iowa and New Jersey had one chance to face Yamato together in 1944

[desert agate]

Taffey 58.7 was nowhere near the Japanese surface forces

[cobalt dome]

Yes i know but I think ur misunderstanding what I said

[zealous vine]

Is the naval history and hermitage website down or something?

https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/s-file/S-511-25.html

I've mainly been trying to find us large cruiser proposals but these pics have been wiped

[burnt scarab]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p2a6ut9IMgQ&pp=0gcJCcEJAYcqIYzv
The anime Strike Witches must have gotten that name

[brittle cargo]

Seems to be working for me. What browser are you using?

[grave ravine]

You can also find all the Spring Styles plans hosted on a variety of other websites as well that are easier to look through https://www.shipscribe.com/styles/S-511/albums/s511-cr.htm

[runic ermine]

That's a name I haven't heard in a long while

[narrow rover]

Result of WW2 in Asia: Two Chinas, two Koreas, Japan nerfed, decolonization

[burnt scarab]

Well, I happen to stumble upon this Simple History channel video Countryballs

[cobalt dome]

https://youtube.com/shorts/4xXXN90FNFo?si=XMgPtLAGRDyAAjhw

[desert agate]

Can we please not post Simple “history” in here

It’s barely better than Infographics Show

[narrow rover]

It's for people that aren't interested in history lol

[cobalt dome]

So like the current way they do content is bad? Or it was like this before too? A bad channel in general that cut a lot of history matter?

[remote monolith]

Simple History basically has little to no care for accuracy and just pump out videos without prior researches

Among other things he was completely wrong on why the 7th Panzer Division was called the Ghost Division (it was an insult and not a compliment), utterly wrong as to why the Maginot was built, and generally still peddles Clean Wehrmacht myths

[zealous vine]

Are there any other similar projects to this mentioned in Friedman's? (a Destroyer Leader, Scout Cruiser or the likes)

[zealous vine]

It seems that Gibbs N Cox wanted to make another DD design in tandem with those infamous aviation BB designs

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/gibbs-cox-project-10921-e-the-destroyer-for-the-soviet-union.33766/ hm

[zealous vine]

Holy sh*t, 42.5kn with 8x 5"/38 DP and 10 21" tubes in quintuples

[gaunt owl]

Can you elaborate on the ghost division one

[remote monolith]

Ghost Division was a fairly dergatory insult against the division from the Germans, and it was named such because Rommel basically disappeared with the entire division for several DAYS in the Fall of France, unable to be contacted by HQ

you could say well thats because its moving so fast, but that speed nearly doomed it at Arras and only the highly disorganized nature of the attacked saved it

[narrow rover]

Rommel just goes completely ape shit and lives throughout the war

I dunno if he just has plot armor or if he has a method to his madness

[remote monolith]

not really, he was helped by the Allies being demoralized by the time of Arras, and he was genuinely a skilled tactician

once he got into field marshal level his taled faded bad'

[gaunt owl]

Bro fell off

[remote monolith]

he's just a classic example of Peter Principle in action

[grave ravine]

There is CL-154, which was kind of the successor program to CL-D (though it's lineage of that is a 5"/54 Atlanta), that's on page 366-371 in my copy of Friedman

[remote monolith]

he got elevated significantly above his field of competence and suffered because commanding divisional or even corps sized elements are different than commanding multiple formations in a single theater, moreso one that requires close cooperation with an allied nation that covers the logistical side of things

of which, spoiler, he did not managed, because he disliked the Italian high command and kept going over them

[grave ravine]

Cl-154 in Spring Styles

[gaunt owl]

"elevated significantly above his field of competence" if only the people who put me in charge of events actually listened to this reasoning

[tacit sage]

Isn’t this what WoWs based the Austin on?

[grave ravine]

Yes, albeit it's worth noting that Scheme C (what Austin is based off of) is very optimistic in terms of weights since the autoloading 5"/42 didn't actually exist yet

[narrow rover]

Rommel did write in his diary I think? He liked Italian food tho lol

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, the alternative will be German Army food

[covert fractal]

happy birthday Franz Kafka🎉🎉🎊

[remote monolith]

He liked several things from the Italians, most notably he praised the average soldiers and the Bersaglieri for their tenacity

But his working relationship with people like Bastico was horrible

[zealous vine]

You mean Scheme A CL-154? Knew that

Their 5"/54 twin mounts.. were they outright impossible physically or just aborted?

On a similar note, I've noticed that the 6"/47 DP cruiser proposals retained aviation facilities amidships; it was only in the final iteration that they were put abaft. Why so sudden?

[grave ravine]

The drawing in Friedman and the Spring Styles image is scheme C

[grave ravine]

They would have been dramatically heavier than expected given the weight growth in the single Mk 42, where each mount weighed as much as an old 5"/38 twin mount

To put it another way, they had initially figured the autoloaded guns would weigh roughly the same as the non autoloaded guns, but the Mk42 mount is twice as heavy as the single Mk16 mount

[grave ravine]

If you are looking at the 1939/1940 CL-D designs in Friedman, it's only the latest one, the 1940 design 507, that has amidships aviation facilities, the previous ones have aft catapults

On page 287-288 Friedman has a discussion of the general merits of amidships vs aft aviation facilities, the USN flip flopped between them, but tended more towards aft in later years

[timber linden]

Happy birthday to the greatest country in the world. July 4th 1776, men from around the soon to be former colonies, at great risk for self and property, signed a declaration of independence from the crown.

[runic ermine]

This guy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ettore_Bastico

[cobalt dome]

Yes indeed. Thought not with the current ongoing administration.

2 years and 3 months later this comment is yes

[timber linden]

Cry harder

[cobalt dome]

Bruh the USA were surely great all way to 2024, then 2025 arrives look what happens.
Also me cry harder? More like I'm lmao at the current USA

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgB4ceFfbro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYNTv436100

[timber linden]

Better off than probably whatever country you live in.

...I take back the probably part

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/KeralaTourism/status/1940308521746407856

Kerala Tourism (@KeralaTourism)

Kerala, the destination you'll never want to leave.
︀︀
︀︀Thank you, The Fauxy.
︀︀
︀︀#F35 #Trivandrum #KeralaTourism

**💬 678 🔁 3.9K ❤️ 20.8K 👁️ 1.36M **

FxTwitter · Jul 2, 2025, 7:16 AM

[tacit sage]

Does anyone here know, how do the two North Carolina Class BBs differ from each other? (If they do at all)

[supple sandal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6N3i2YI5rE

[zealous vine]

Ah, so it would've been more plausible for them (if built) to be fitted with the single mk42 to achieve the same rpm?

(same rpm as the twin mount, since 2 autoloaders fed a single breech right?)

[zealous vine]

Ah no, 1941-1943 Worcester preliminaries

Oh, it's cause I'm referring to S-511 sketches

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/Armee_de_lair/status/1940386032618537248
https://fxtwitter.com/Armee_de_lair/status/1940386036489818200 France recently retired their last KC-135

Armée de l'Air et de l'Espace (@Armee_de_lair)

✈️Dernier envol d'un géant !
︀︀
︀︀Lundi, la cérémonie de retrait de service des trois derniers ravitailleurs KC-135 s’est déroulée à Istres. Après plus de 60 ans de missions de ravitaillement en vol et de dissuasion nucléaire aéroportée, cet avion légendaire tire sa révérence.

**💬 17 🔁 156 ❤️ 920 👁️ 53.8K **

FxTwitter · Jul 2, 2025, 12:24 PM

Armée de l'Air et de l'Espace (@Armee_de_lair)

Sur la BA 125, plus de 1500 personnes ont rendu hommage à cet avion mythique et aux Aviateurs qui l’ont servi.
︀︀
︀︀La relève est désormais assurée par l'A330 MRTT Phénix : le 13e exemplaire vient d'être livré. Après la légende, la mission continue.
︀︀
︀︀🎬youtu.be/1bvxV1u38ic

**💬 2 🔁 26 ❤️ 112 👁️ 4.7K **

FxTwitter · Jul 2, 2025, 12:24 PM

[zealous vine]

How effective were the Japanese 100mm as AA, in comparison to the 5"/38s and 3"/50s (twin mount)

[desert agate]

Weird, it isn’t Jan 26

Or January 1st if you’re so inclined

[remote monolith]

It's not August 17th either

[remote monolith]

Oh that's nice, Denialism in the open

[autumn sorrel]

Actually really good overview on the clusterfuck that is French logistic in DBP

[gaunt owl]

August 17th mentioned

[spring briar]

Not July 14th either

Wack

[south forge]

Can Ken Burns Get Everyone to Agree on America’s Origin Story? - The Wall Street Journal https://apple.news/Act2MUiGqSfChryXO_aoL7g

[tacit sage]

Tbf, this could also be normal AI screw ups. It’s not uncommon for AIs like this to pull up some incorrect information every now and then. And also, there’s the point of wondering what question it’s actually answering, as that can also have an effect on it.

[zealous vine]

It may just be the AI hallucinating

But what do I know

From what I've experienced, once an AI has reached a first conclusion, it will likely not recheck itself

I asked one once whether the DM class had 5"/54 mk16 mounts, it affirmed and even supported it further with sources and explanations despite me asking it repeatedly (the mk16 designation belonged to the 8"/55)

On the other hand, AIs obviously have some intervention. Deepseek is CCP's pet, it will censor itself if it says anything taboo

[cobalt dome]

Or search the proof pictures of mass graves that were taken back then, so yeah fuck to whoever is a denial of holocaust or anything related and F Hitler and nazi apologist sympathiser like that "human" on YT that is literally a nazi apologists and keep defending Hitler nazi Germany, while massively and overwhelming trash talking, insulting the Allies, and UK and US PM and President

And fuck elon fish musk

[supple sandal]

What was the name of that time when the US blew up their own ship and then blame it on other country

Then they go to war

[tacit sage]

I mean, yes. The thing we're talking about is not whether you can find evidence (of course you can find evidence if you look it up yourself, despite what Holocaust Deniers say there's plenty of evidence that the Holocaust happened). What we're talking about is whether the original comment painting this as Elon messing with the AI is what happened or not, especially when (like Bogus said) AI can be easily influenced into giving an answer you want. Particularly when in that picture you can't see what the original question is.

[supple sandal]

Artificial Stupidity

(they also making people actively more stupid)

[remote monolith]

It could be that yah, although Grok does has precedent of being tampered with to provide answers Elin preferred, just with a very poor track record

Remembering the White Genocide fiasco

In this case though a friend has checked and Grok is fine so yeah likely no tampering on a wide scale

[supple sandal]

I honestly don't know if they invade Cuba or Philippines

Was that 2 different operations or the same one

[tacit sage]

AI gives incorrect info all the time. It's fairly sensible to believe that it's just the AI making a mistake. It's tempting to confirm our own biases, but one must remember not to let it blind them.

[remote monolith]

Cuba was Bay of Pigs and it was more them providing weapons to whatever remained of Pre-Castro Cuba's regime than a full invasion by the US Army

[supple sandal]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Maine_(1890)

This one

[tacit sage]

I was reading through this, I don't see anything in particular that hints that the Maine's destruction was the US's fault.

[supple sandal]

Okay

I misremembered something

Well I guess I just have to settle with USS Maddox and USS Liberty I guess

[remote monolith]

It is still particularly worrying because it is verbatim from Penguin Ltd V Irving case

Although hopefully it's actually just the original asker wanting to know the details of that case instead

And even so it still contains one truth: there is no direct Hitler order for the Holocaust, which was intentional from Hitler to wash any responsibilities off him and into his subordinates, his orders excepting his fuhrer directives are usually vaguely worded and verbally given

[tacit sage]

I mean, it was, unfortunately, a smart move on Germany’s part

Although, it obviously didn’t save AH in the long run

[remote monolith]

It's been used very often to deny the truth of the Holocaust since the best evidence came from the minutiae of Wannsee where Hitler was notably absent and the wordings took special care to not use the word Genocide

[tacit sage]

The main problem with the denier’s viewpoint is that they refuse to believe the testimony of people, over accusations of bias or conspiracy. This wholeheartedly demonstrates their ignorance as a historian, as a large majority of history is just personal testimony, so why should we now suddenly discredit thousands of people’s testimony just because it came straight from from a person?

[supple sandal]

Idk why it would, I think his run is a bit short, he didn't even see numburg

[tacit sage]

I mean, going along their line of thinking, would one then discredit Josephuses as a source on Jewish culture because he was a personal source?

[remote monolith]

Eye testimonies are actually among the worst evidence you can use against people like Irving because he knows people tend to misremember things and he banks on that to win during the case

The thing that beat him ultimately was that he couldn't prove Auschwitz wasn't a concentration cum extermination camp through thorough examination of the complex plan from people like van Pelt

[supple sandal]

Why you wrote cum

[tacit sage]

Because it has more definitions than the one you’re thinking of

[remote monolith]

It's easier to use it than to use slash lol

[tacit sage]

Does anyone know the answer to this?

[supple sandal]

I be damn

Latin strike again

Dead people ruined my day and embarrassed me on the internet again

Anyway

What do they mean "subsequent trials never took place"

[remote monolith]

Welcome to the failure of denazification

Both sides of the curtain failed it

[autumn sorrel]

Bc even if Germans back then are incredibly antisemitic, Genocide on such a scale is not what they could stomach.

[supple sandal]

Was trying to play a pun, but that didn't work out I guess

[autumn sorrel]

It is much easier for Nazi to just relocate Jews "East". As far as the Germans public understand, "East" is not total genocide.

[autumn sorrel]

Bc prominent Nazi politicians and those that on the top of military are executed but those of middle management and majority in the Army are untouch other than a brief stint in jails.

Worse is that the Cold War create the needs for Soviet and Allied to raise a new German Armed Force on both side of the Iron Curtain and the most logic choice will be using the military personnel with least stench on them.

[remote monolith]

The sad truth it is just not possible to punish middle management and below on any meaningful amount because they're needed to run the country unless the Allies resorts to another genocide

So the best they can do was beheading the ringleaders, pick out some prominent mid level officers and particularly infamous grunts, and that's about it

[autumn sorrel]

Yep, if you kill them all then it would take decades for Germany to even be viable country ever again, worse scenario is that the rot is likely a whole generation and Allied don't have time for a new German generation to mature in time in the Cold War climate.

[autumn sorrel]

Wait till you see Cambodian Genocide deniers.

[cobalt dome]

Oh ohhh oke oke got it now

[south forge]

DeepSeek talked about Tiananmen Square.

[south forge]

You asked AI a leading question you already knew the answer to?

[south forge]

Gulf of Tonkin incident. It was the United States of America’s justification for greater involvement in the Vietnam war.

[south forge]

I wouldn’t say personal testimony as much as primary sources. Even then, we have a modern understanding of some things that would discredit personal testimony in the past. Like the Salem witch trials. In high school, my AP US History teacher shared a quote by his college professor. “History is how we understand ourselves in the present.”

[south forge]

I would have just said Operation Paperclip.

[cobalt dome]

Where the US would gain massive advantage such the B-52 stratorfortress

Nasa program

[cobalt dome]

What war?

[supple sandal]

I misremembered everything

[supple sandal]

People do that to say that the LLM are stupid

(they are stupid but that isn't the point)

[runic ermine]

Why did Romania do so poorly in WW1 but so well in WW2?

[eternal veldt]

@desert agate one for you

[desert agate]

HAHAHAHAHA

Classic America saved the day rhetoric

Completely false but yknow, why let facts get in the way of an American

[supple sandal]

Even then

Marines?

What about the navy

[remote monolith]

Did they? Did they do well?

[narrow rover]

Not even that
Something like 200,000 people were supposed to have participated in just the holocaust alone and it gets even bigger when you go to things the German army did overall

[remote monolith]

Considering the Germans utterly refused to even give them adequate Anti-Tanks and tanks for their usage

[narrow rover]

If they tried every single one of them we'd still be dealing with court cases of long dead people

[remote monolith]

If we include all of the death toll in the Holocaust, then everyone in the Wehrmacht is accessory and facilitated it

Because the high command issued the criminal order and the commissar order as part of their official policies

Meaning at minimum you're looking at 5-6 million guilty parties

And that's not counting civilian collaborators and willing ignorance cases

[narrow rover]

Yea
It gets even harder in places like Japan because those guys didn't even have a nazi party just a gorillion different organizations you'd have to investigate separately

The Americans just threw in the towel and issued a ban on 100,000 or so people from public office

[remote monolith]

And a lot of that gets employment later on anyway

[supple sandal]

Nightmare paperwork to be honest

I ain't gonna dealing with that shit unless the compensation is really really really satisfactory

[narrow rover]

Yea it was if anything a measure to get the occupation going smoothly

Ryoichi Sasakawa comes to mind
He was nowhere near close to getting arrested, but once he started going around calling the Americans "unjust" in 1946, they quickly ban him from public office.

[junior trench]

Which is why Sachsenhausen concentration camp is in Poland.

No, wait, it's right outside Berlin.

[junior trench]

Did someone hit the 50c button or something

[supple sandal]

🍿

[narrow rover]

Hard to say
There was certainly some knowledge of the Holocaust in Germany even before the end of the war exposed the true scale of it all

And I guess people couldn't be assed to care
Or at least not bothered enough to oppose it

[autumn sorrel]

That’s not Gulf of Tonkin incident, in fact US never sink their own ship. They only exploit a situation when it presented itself.

[autumn sorrel]

More likely that they have an inkling of something happening but they choose to ignore it.

[autumn sorrel]

I am not trying to defend Germans here but how often do you think civilians go to place that gov call “hard labor camp” or “work camp”? Sure some information got passed around with hush words of mouth but it not like a German civilian will go outside of Berlin and going into a security zone to check something base on rumors.

[remote monolith]

very

because a lot of soldiers blabbed about their jobs in letters and diariers to their families and readily mentioned the massacres they did

[autumn sorrel]

Don’t they have a censorship department for military mails?

[remote monolith]

for example a letter from a German soldier during barbarossa specifically mentioned how he and his units shot about 5,000 Jews that week

[autumn sorrel]

????

[remote monolith]

not for the Holocaust they didn't, and there never were provisions to not let anyone in Germany not know about atrocities

[autumn sorrel]

So you are saying, Holocaust is a known fact in Germany during the War and it was condoned by German public?

[remote monolith]

they absolutely know at minimum the government is highly antisemitic and would love to kill Jews en masse, and after the Kristallnacht anyone with an ounce of common sense was aware that the government WILL do so. After the war started anyone with brains, eyes and mouth would have gotten at least a rumor or an anecdote about wartime relatives doing crimes against Jews and Slavs, and by the time the bigger camps appeared anyone with any kinds of senses would have realized what happened (Dachau infamously had a stench that stretched into nearby towns, and all the major camps had extensive railway systems manufactured that went through towns and villages)

there's no excuses other than willful ignorance for Germans then

also some letter quotes for good measure

All the more urgent was the solution of the Jewish question. It is now pushed forward energetically by the Hungarian government according to the German model. A complete elimination is just necessary to give the miserable Russian people better living conditions.

The people here do not mean well to us Germans. The city of Dunaburg(Daugavpils) is half in ruins. 75% of the population used to be Jewish. They themselves—mostly before the Germans arrived— blew up or burned down their houses. Subsequently 30 000 Jews were shot not far from the city. In addition we executed other people over nothing. For these reasons, the population don’t like to see the Germans anywhere. People are suspicious

There’s not much new to tell from here; during the last couple of days the ghetto got smoked out. Unfortunately some of the Jews managed to skedaddle; and from time to time we have some minor shoot-outs.

An extraordinary record both of the nature of the rumors in circulation, and of the information open to those interested in acquiring it, is provided by the remarkable diary notes kept by Karl Duerckefaelden, son of a worker in the Celle district of Lower Saxony, who himself later became a skilled technician and engineer. He heard of the deportation of the Jews of Holland from a conversation with a Dutch lorry driver in July, 1942, and a few months later recorded the news of deportations of French Jews which he heard from the BBC. The wife of a Jew in the area told him details in July, 1942, of the transportation of the last Jews from Peine, in Lower Saxony, to Theresienstadt, and of the conditions of other Jews from the area who had been deported earlier to Warsaw. In autumn, 1942, he heard again on the BBC of the gassing of Jews in motor vans. A soldier who had formerly worked in the same firm provided him in January, 1943, with information about the shooting and
gassing of Jews from France and other countries who had been shipped off to Poland, and he learnt from the same source that only a fraction—a tenth, it was said—of the former Jewish population still survived in the town of Vilna

this does not mean all German supported the Holocaust, only that for the most part they were aware in general that Jews were getting oppressed and killed all throughout Europe

[strong mountain]

☝️

[autumn sorrel]

@spring briar do you have any ebook or recommendations on books about French artillery development under Napoleon III?

Preferably in English

[spring briar]

[narrow rover]

Basically the public in the Axis was completely batshit insane in modern standards

I mean there's this video of people cheering Mussolini on when he says that he'd delivered a declaration of war to the British so

Like... your leader has just declared war and you're happy about it(???)

[remote monolith]

there was undeniably a much bigger level of Hitler particles then

[narrow rover]

I still don't get it
A large chunk of the voter base would have experienced WW1, and knew fully well just how bad another war would be
Yet they chose war... essentially

[autumn sorrel]

To Italian, they won ww1 but the problem is not the casualties but that they wasn’t compensated enough.

[remote monolith]

as the good book says, you're not immune to propaganda

[autumn sorrel]

It is easy to manufacture grievance and blame your problems on other nations or groups of people.

[remote monolith]

especially in the interwar climate that sees many issue bubbling up to the surface

[narrow rover]

Same with Japan but the Russo Japanese war

To be fair they did get screwed a bit at the negotiations

But you keep that national mythos going for about 20 years, and you get a bunch of people that REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted to die for the emperor

[autumn sorrel]

Pretty much, Japan society was still very much feudalism back then. There might not be Damyo class to rule over general public but the Bushido culture and strict social hierarchy are beaten into Japanese since birth till maturity. Meiji Restoration social reform does little to change Japanese society as a whole.

[narrow rover]

There's a reason the Americans did much more social projects during the occupation there compared to in Germany

Though quite frankly a lot of them were either ineffective or just stupid

What did fix Japan's social system, was the economy getting modernized...

[runic ermine]

In WW2 for a minor power yes. Romania just got scapegoated after Stalingrad for failing to hold the flank

[runic ermine]

Notable examples:
-The War of 1812
-French cowardice
-Singlehandedly winning wars
-Geography
-Treatment/rememberence of allies and their contributions

[tacit sage]

To say the Americans single handedly stopped the war or were the reason Japan was defeated is dumb, it doesn't take much reading to realize that the European powers still could've won WW2 by themselves. However, I'd say it's equally as dumb to pretend that the US didn't have a sizable impact on the war. Especially when we consider the fact the US Navy helped tremendously in the Pacific Theatre, particularly meaning that Britain didn't have to decide its Navy too much at the time. I'd say the Allies would've eventually won without the US, but it would've taken much longer, by how much would depend on if the US is still aiding Britain with their funding (like Destroyers-for-Bases and the Lend-Lease Act) in this theoretical situation.

Before, someone says something, yes, I know the Australians were in that theatre. If there was no US there, it probably would've been up to the Aussies plus little bits of other Allies to deal with the Japanese.

[narrow burrow]

Wtf is this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_monitor_Novgorod

"monitor"

[tacit sage]

What canned bread does to a man

[narrow rover]

The round ship

[tacit sage]

Tbf, this would probably confuse an enemy, it’d make it really hard to figure out what’s the bow, stern, port, etc.

[narrow rover]

Was quite slow and unwieldy

[autumn sorrel]

It was dumb in hindsight but the theory was sound enough at the time. Stable gun platform, homogeneous all around armor thiccness and ability to operate in the Baltic. Problem is that the maneuverability is nil.

[narrow rover]

You just need powerful enough engines tbh

[autumn sorrel]

That and a bit redesign of the hull, it isn’t exactly hydrodynamic

[narrow rover]

Yea
It'd be a nightmare to steer

[desert agate]

When I discuss the PTO, I don't really like to minimise the Americans, they obviously did a lot and the war probably wouldn't have been won without them
What I don't like is when Americans act as though it was just them fighting on and that no one else mattered etc.
The Australian forces in particular executed a lot of decisive actions, and the American submarine campaign would not have been nearly as successful without coordination with the RAAF Catalina squadrons and the Coastwatchers, as an example

Keep in mind that before American forces arrived in the South Pacific in force, towards the end of 1942, it was the AIF that held the line, fighting a number of guerilla campaigns in the occupied Indes, plus the decisive battles in New Guinea, while the RAAF was developing itself into the dominating force that it would become towards the end of the war

[cobalt dome]

Oh after last days of what going on ur country guess USA is the second laugh stockpile of the world after ruZZia, abd turn into liveshow too, enjoy having a president thst is literally a puppet of moscow

[cobalt dome]

What u mean so well in WW2? They did absolutely disaster alongside Italians and Bulgarians because they didn't had any anti gun guns and barely any tanks, plus Germany general were really stubborn after operation citadel, no withdrawal of army group north and avoid getting Minsk encirclement pocket

[remote monolith]

Yeah I wouldn't call their performance well

For the most part they were piggybacking off Germany

[desert agate]

Can we not discuss modern politics

[cobalt dome]

Ok got it

[cobalt dome]

Plus the Romanians didn't want to go that far after taking southern parts of Ukraine, they just kept going along with the German push, since they need Infantey to fill the lines

[runic ermine]

Well for what they had in WW2. It was unrealistic to expect the Romanian 3rd and 4th Armies to hold so much ground

[runic ermine]

Every minor power in Europe was

[cobalt dome]

Well yeah true indeed, and if the Germans were more kind toward Ukraine they round a much bigger army since they surely woul love to achieve independence just like they got it during 1917, but yeah much ground indeed poor equipment, not many tanks

[narrow rover]

Everyone in the Axis was

[runic ermine]

There is no world where Germany in ww2 would have been kinder to any Slavs

[narrow rover]

IDK
Come up with a timeline where they try to expand into Eastern Europe under a different ideology

[runic ermine]

That can't happen. Expandsion into Europe happened because of Lebiserum

[narrow rover]

Yea
Hard to come up with a less racist Germany considering how much of a disaster it was after WW1

Even if you just thanos snap the entire Nazi regime out of existence I have a feeling they'll start some real shit in Eastern Europe anyway

[narrow rover]

I do wonder though
Has any name suffered a greater decline in popularity than "Adolf"

[runic ermine]

Idk

[tacit sage]

I mean, from a name being tarnished? I’d say AH takes the cake. In terms of in general though, there are plenty of names that used to be popular that are almost nonexistent.

That being said, there’s ironically plenty of Africans who are named after AH

[narrow rover]

"Hitler" itself was a rare name, but "Adolf" used to be very popular in Germany until well...

Imagine the damage if Hitlers surname was something relatively common like "Meyer"

[tacit sage]

@narrow rover https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-55173605

[narrow rover]

[tacit sage]

So, the reasoning behind why it’s a popular name in certain parts of Africa is funnily enough, because it was a English name that they were hearing about a lot during WW2, one that was seemingly beating back the western powers (and didn’t really have much context other than that), so they named some of their children after the man because they only perceived it as a strong name.

That’s sort of what I know off the top of my head though. If someone knows about it more in depth, feel free to correct what I’m wrong about.

[zealous vine]

Was there an alternative feed mechanism considered for the 6"/47 DP on the worcester?

[cobalt dome]

Well ur forgetting how Ukraine was treaded in the 30, 10 million civilians died to starvation

[autumn sorrel]

Or, it could just be simple as both Soviet and Nazi are asshole. Just bc you hate Soviet doesn’t mean you have to pivoted to supporting Nazism.

[cobalt dome]

Yes true they were. I hate both sides. I don't support either size but at same time nazi Germany existence prevented a red Europe under soviet control all way to the English Channel which would have been worst scenario ever.

[junior trench]

Yes

Copying the Des Moines system

[mental tapir]

Lol that made me remember an althistcody episode where Trotsky was in charge instead of Stalin and declared war on/invaded Germany instead of signing the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact

At least, I think it was like that as far as I could remember

Wild alt hist

[tacit sage]

Gonna ask again, because maybe my messages were missed before, but are there any differences between the two North Carolina Class Battleships? Like how the Iowas all have a bunch of small differences between them.

[autumn sorrel]

Both received similar upgrades and modification, only differences is when they received them.

There might be slight difference in placements of quad bofors but if you ask about anything major then no

[runic ermine]

Im not, im just saying that Germany didn't exactly sympathize with them. They saw Ukrainians, like other slavs, as subhuman

[tacit sage]

Alright, thanks

[desert agate]

All classes have differences between members
Generally @eternal veldt is our resident ship ID expert though

[eternal veldt]

Oerlikon tub arrangements and tower mast platforms are different depending on year.

This photo, allegedly taken at Guadalcanal, for example, confirms that the ship is Washington via the Oerlikon arrangement and the appearance of the air defense platform on the top of the tower mast - North Carolina's platforms were plain flat, Washington's had wind deflectors installed.

[desert agate]

Thanks Silver

[tacit sage]

Thanks dude

[narrow rover]

Fans before fans existed

[tacit sage]

The other lady is like "what the hell are you wasting your time on?"

[frosty quartz]

Lmao

[zealous vine]

They would preferably maintain it only at 12 rpm right? expectedly with more reliability than the current feed?

[junior trench]

There were plans made to replace the twin turrets on new ships with a triple fully automatic DP mounting similar in concept to those for the 8"/55 (20.3 cm) Mark 16. These were expected to be able to fire 20-25 rounds per minute per gun compared to 12 rounds per gun in the twin mountings. This project was cancelled at the end of the war.

[gaunt owl]

Anyone know what carrier design Peter strasser was based on

[burnt cloud]

May those who died during sinking of Tirpitz rest in peace.

[narrow rover]

RIP the most bombed ship of all time

[eternal veldt]

Flugzeugträger B, modified sister of Graf Zeppelin.

Worth noting that the name Peter Strasser was never assigned in any official capacity, and mostly done so in post-war literature.

[narrow rover]

I sort of wonder why Hitler never tried to plaster his name over some big battleship

[eternal veldt]

Because any loss would be an embarrassment to the reich

This is also why Deutschland was renamed

[remote monolith]

its funny that they even gave this name considering the name Strasser would have been fairly touchy name in Nazi circle

[eternal veldt]

Which is why it is strictly a post war literature conjecture

[gaunt owl]

Deadass i thought her anniversary was today

Due to this post

[gaunt owl]

Ooh thank you

[zealous vine]

I assume these sacrificed the all angle feeding ability, no?

Or is it just the dual hoist that made the real worcester unreliable

[frosty quartz]

Yesss

[frosty quartz]

Tallboys 💀

[spring briar]

the Tallboys actually weren't for Tirpitz

they were to destroy the sandbank she was resting on that was preventing her from sinking more

[frosty quartz]

They did their jobs nonetheless

[spring briar]

yes

the sandbank was destroyed and she simply flooded more

[burnt cloud]

Was it 21 tallboys?

Or 18

[tacit sage]

It's funny because now I'm imagining 12 literal tall boys being air dropped onto the Germans.

[junior trench]

That's just called a paratrooper squad

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wUKUKGyVgw

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EHn-eBrSDY

[lime scarab]

Anyone here interested in ship wreaks of ww2?

[spring briar]

Teruzuki has been found

[lime scarab]

Yes is that major?

[narrow rover]

Japanese DDs are pretty rare yes

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/thef35/status/1942977642342342921

F-35 Lightning II (@thef35)

Final finishes are underway on Belgium’s first in-country F-35, preparing the jet for its first flight. 🖌️
︀︀
︀︀The F-35 is ushering in a new era of 5th Gen capability for the @BeAirForce! ⚡

**💬 17 🔁 144 ❤️ 1.3K 👁️ 49.2K **

FxTwitter · Jul 9, 2025, 4:02 PM

[lime scarab]

Really how so?

[narrow rover]

They're on the bottom of the sea

[sinful zenith]

kinda cool they think they found the front of new orleans that got blown off i think

[cobalt dome]

With 3 yamato-class ships too 210 tons of metal sitting there

[gaunt owl]

"drop the 6 ft boys"

[frosty quartz]

Lmao

[narrow rover]

I wonder if paratroopers often got shot out of the sky

[tacit sage]

I mean, I imagine so without even researching that

[timber linden]

See the poles on the third day of market garden

Or third drop

[narrow rover]

Montgomery's big oof

[spring briar]

plons

[narrow rover]

Korea's first ever locally built aircraft

Late 40s

[tacit sage]

Idk if it’s just me, but anyone else disappointed how most of the warships of the modern navies look bland? The only modern warship I’ve see recently that I like the look of is the “totally not an aircraft carrier” Destroyer Kaga.

I understand that they’re meant for form rather than function, but idk, I miss the personality ships used to have.

[grave ravine]

What museum?

[chilly flower]

Seems like Dayton Air Force Museum

I've got two buddies that are visiting that in a week or two

[grave ravine]

That's a museum I'd love to visit someday

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF0GMJ7itWI

[proper fog]

Yep, national museum of the air force

[zealous vine]

What navies are capable of realistically producing a ship within a margin of a designed speed

I read that the French often exceeded design speeds, while the Germans achieved less than intended. How about other navies?

[spring briar]

All of them are

The slower than designed German ships was something that plagued them during the 1910s iirc

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3f0kF33l0U

[zealous vine]

Then what about best cases? Did any navy consistently have some streak of exceeding somewhere?

[junior trench]

depending how you define it, then that would be the USN thanks to their very generous safety margins on boilers/machinery

[zealous vine]

The Brits? Italians? Japanese?

[spring briar]

USN, French, Italians

And sometimes the IJN

[zealous vine]

Holy shit, all of Friedman's books are rightfully $100+ 💀

[timber linden]

Happy birthday

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAmwrI7-8kc

[runic ermine]

Thanks

[eternal veldt]

laughs in $1400 price tag on Warship 2006

[zealous vine]

I'd like to ask 2 topics about US DDs.

1. How many of them often carry spare torpedoes? Was it only those that purely had centerline mounts? In which class did this practice start appearing?

2. How does one figure out what variant of the 533mm torpedo a US DD is using? Are older DDs stuck with older stock, or did they keep up with the eras?

[junior trench]

Only the Porter-class and anything newer than a Clemson can be assumed to have Mark 15s

[zealous vine]

So alllll the way from Farragut to Gearing?

[junior trench]

yes

you might find some ships still using Mark 11s or 12s out with the Asiatic Fleet/Squadron whatever at war's start, but those were mostly 4 stackers, and thus Clemsons

*or an Omaha, which is still older than the Farraguts

[cobalt dome]

big oof infeed, the Allies should have focus to take the ports on the low countries first so by late 44 early 45 they would have much more supplies and then push into Germany itself

[narrow rover]

Koreas first and last seaplane to serve the navy.

Sadly we never invested in seaplane technology

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w06ok2OgFFA

[desert agate]

Korea has literally no requirement for it

Mostly mountainous country expecting to fight a high intensity conflict in crowded waters close to shore, seaplanes are basically useless

[autumn sorrel]

Belgian ship
Look inside
Sigma variants
Dutch ships supremacy

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, you could make a case for ASW patrol to hunt for NK subs and patrol the coast to spot NK minisub that drop Commando. Also to support landing operations but I guess that is not needed with the Helicopters Landing ship.

[desert agate]

DPRK submarine operations are not going to happen far from the littoral/immediate coastal seas of Korea
The majority of their submarine fleet consists of midget submarines, which have neither the range nor endurance to operate in areas where an ASW Seaplan would be a useful asset

[shrewd pecan]

South Korea already has the maritime patrol fleet and surface ASW capability to deal with nork submarines

A sea plane would offer jack shit in terms of additional capability

[grave ravine]

there is zero reason SK would need a seaplane over just P-8

[narrow rover]

Yea, there's really no need

Though you can say the same to Japan and they have a few around

[junior trench]

There's a devil on Japan's shoulder telling them they might need it in the future for reasons

[grave ravine]

The US-2 is a neat plane, but it's also kinda stupid IMO

[junior trench]

It would be funny if it wasn't so worrying that Japan has a similar sort of fringe (for now) imperial nostalgia as the UK

[narrow rover]

I have no real clue whey they'd even NEED one lol

China also has some experimental seaplanes around. Recently they were flying an ekranoplan

Is it just me, or are those engines massively oversize compared to the plane itself

[frozen kestrel]

This looks like it was made in GMod

[tacit sage]

Expect the best, prepare for the worst.

[narrow rover]

Yea

It's a bizarro design

[narrow rover]

Japan should know better than anyone what "worst" can be

[desert agate]

https://fxtwitter.com/50YearsAgoLive/status/1944378021290684841

1975 Live (@50YearsAgoLive)

Staff at the Embassy of North Korea in Australia accidentally crash their Mercedes while driving in Canberra.
︀︀
︀︀They go to the nearest house to seek help, but they’re appalled to find that they’ve knocked on the door of the South Korean Ambassador to Australia.
︀︀
︀︀Then they go to Canberra’s only Mercedes dealership, but the last car has been sold - to the South Korean legation.

**💬 17 🔁 199 ❤️ 4.1K 👁️ 197.1K **

FxTwitter · Jul 13, 2025, 12:46 PM

[desert agate]

It is an insanely useful platform

We would do well to learn from the Japanese

Seaplanes will be a critical asset in a 2nd Pacific War

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUE-S2ukhZw

[autumn sorrel]

Imagine how funny would it be if they use Flyout to design airplane

[autumn sorrel]

The last bit about SK bought the last Mercedes sound like it is purely out of spite

[narrow rover]

Was there ever an instance of a warship accidentally shooting itself

And were there any mechanisms to prevent this other than "yea don't pull the trigger when your turret is outside this firing arc"

[subtle prawn]

Well, there was that one time USS Tang sank herself with her own torpedo

[narrow rover]

That happened surprisingly often apparently

I think a U boat also shot herself once

[sinful zenith]

NJ damaged herself I think from the shockwave

[narrow rover]

I think I recall something about Yamato or Musashi knocking her own AA crew overboard with the gun shockwave, but Yammy fired in anger so few times it might be a rumor

[alpine onyx]

Renown carried those rails that would mechanically block the barrels from pointing at nearby mounts, something that was apparently added after an accident

[mental tapir]

Roomba!

[lime scarab]

Did the Doolittle cause Japan to consider taking midway since American was able to attack the mainland and they thought it wasn’t possible for them to do?

[grave ravine]

Kinda, in multiple respects

For one the idea of a carrier raid on the home islands wasn't inconceivable to the IJN, that is after all why the picket boats were out there, but they really hadn't expected it to succeed in the way it did

But more to the point, the genesis of Operation MI and the selection of Midway as a target predates the Doolittle raid by a couple weeks

But what the raid did do was dramatically strengthen Yamamoto and Ugaki's hand in the bureaucratic fight with others in the Navy GHQ and with the army to actually carry out the operation

Though Yamamoto had for all intents and purposes won the fight within the Navy already

[lime scarab]

Basically thanks to the raids the Japanese felt like they should go with the plan to final squash the last of americas aircraft carriers.

Also it sounds like Japan didn’t rule out that America couldn’t do that raid but how much damage it could do.

[grave ravine]

not so much that but rather the IJN figured the precautions they had in place (IE things like the picket boat line) would be enough to prevent any American attempt at a raid from succeeding

[grave ravine]

The IJN had intended to draw the American carriers into a decisive conflict basically from the moment they realized the carriers hadn't been sunk at Pearl, but it was a series of minor carrier raids in Feb-March 1942 that had shot the American carriers to the top of the hit list, in particular the oft forgotten Lae-Salamaua raid of March 10

Again what Doolittle did in respect to Midway planning was help convince the Army to stump up the forces both for Midway but also the Aleutians invasion (which also predated Doolittle!, and had been agreed upon as being simultaneous to Midway in a compromise solution within Naval GHQ)

Anyways I suggest you read the first couple chapters of Shattered Sword if you want the complete narration, rather than me just trying to play telephone from it to answer your questions

[narrow rover]

Early meiji era Japanese sailing ship.

They've just got one HUGE square rig. This one's been modified with European style sails but earlier versions just have that one main mast and nothing else

[near raptor]

I’ve been reading Tameichi Hara’s Japanese Destroyer Captain book. I was surprised to see the section on dealing with skip-bombers. I had thought skip-bombing was a Wows imaginary thing

It’s a fantastic autobiography. Such an engaging read

[runic ermine]

This sounds more like a comedy sketch

But then again, a lot of history is like that

[terse mesa]

https://youtu.be/UYvEcx8xPBo?si=lCmJEVc5XiwZLcbt

[narrow rover]

It surprises me just how little the Japanese ever bothered surrendering. The USSR captured about three million German PoWs. The western Allies and China combined captured under 100,000 Japanese...

[subtle prawn]

Is it really that surprising to you considering they saw surrendering as shameful?

[remote monolith]

It's your brain on several decades of highly romanticized depictions of the Samurai class

You can blame Hagakure among others for this

[tacit sage]

I'd recommend the "Supernova in the East" Podcast Mini-Series by Dan Carlin. It's 6 episodes, each episode ranges from like 2 to 5 hours, it starts Japan's forced modernization and goes all the way to the end of WW2. He does a really good job in terms of story telling, and he does a good job of exploring interesting ideas, especially what you're talking about in terms of the suicidal tendencies of the Japanese in WW2.

I've listened through it a couple of times, particularly when I'm working

[narrow rover]

I mean the funny thing is that as far as WW2 combatants go they weren't THAT badly hit in terms of human losses

2~5 percent of the population lost. Somewhat replenished by colony settlers being forced back. Contrast that to something like Poland which lost 20% of the entire population...

[narrow rover]

Yea, I know that one. Been trying to get myself to listen to it.

[tacit sage]

Yeah it's pretty good

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah but Poland don't lose those 20% during one battle but throughout entire war with all the concentration camp, Warsaw uprising and Soviet purges. In Okinawa alone the civilian mortality rate is ~30–50%. Now use those figure and apply it to Downfall, you will see that the Atomic bomb is arguably the more humane choice for both Allied and Japan.

[narrow rover]

I mean absolutely, but I just don't like this "nukes or downfall" debate. It was nukes and downfall, if we believe the war had any chance in hell of devolving to that point.

I just follow Alex Wellerstein's take on the matter.

[tacit sage]

One also thinks about what happened at Saipan as well in terms of what the allies expected from mainland Japan fighting.

[narrow rover]

I dunno what's worse, getting forced off a cliff by your own army or getting told to hold grenades

[narrow rover]

Also worth noting that Okinawa isn't that big so the civilians could not run off and hide, and since it was one of the later additions to Japan proper, some people wasn't really in the mood to fight for Japan and the army had to do some more "coercing" to get the people to fight

So probably some people tried running away and got shot Soviet penal unit style, etc

Though I'd suspect that number however high would have been a minority compared to, you know, people that just died in the crossfire

[tacit sage]

There are accounts on Saipan of soldiers hiding in caves with civilians, telling mothers to kill their crying babies to get them to shut up, or they'd kill the babies themselves.

Not to mention, the overall culture they were taught in terms of brutality to the enemy and lack of self preservation.

[narrow rover]

Sometimes the soldiers themselves were brutally beaten by their superiors etc

IJA in this era is peak insanity...

https://x.com/100YearsAgoLive/status/1945117303739240581?t=SzPoNZnIYoSJKi4dpcYzSw&s=19

1925 Live (@100YearsAgoLive)

Adolf Hitler gives a speech in which he bizarrely claims that New Zealanders “live in trees” and “clamber around on all-fours,” as “they have not yet learned to walk upright.”

X · Jul 15, 2025, 1:44 PM

Yea uhh
How did people not realize he was insane at this very moment

[tacit sage]

Heyo, he's hitting some dance moves in this photo

[narrow rover]

He's dabbing

Worlds first dab

[tacit sage]

Explains why he's not getting it right, this is what it evolved from. Truly a pioneer of the dance floor.

[runic ermine]

Reminder that this was Weimar Germany

[zealous vine]

What restricted only 2 18" guns (in planning) on the Iowa per turret? Was it the feed mechanism? Size of the gun itself?

[grave ravine]

It was all of the above basically, the cumulative weight increase from the guns, the hoists, the elevation and training gear, and physically larger dimensions necessitating a larger turret all added up so that a twin 18" gun turret had comparable weight to a triple 16" turret

This was really something of a general rule of thumb for naval design that every time you increased caliber by two inches, you had to drop from a triple to a twin (or a quad to a triple)

See for example the Colorado's, the Mogamis, and the North Carolina prelims for various examples of this playing out

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3lu2bgnhvkk2a

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

#TuesdayThoughts

Bluesky · Jul 16, 2025, 1:31 AM

[narrow rover]

I mean bayonet charging with a flamethrower? Sounds like a suicide attack to me

Something a Japanese commander would think about

[tacit sage]

IDK, flaming sword sounds pretty wicked

[sinful zenith]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGea12iSL3M new laffey video

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, have you even seen modern politics discourse? It is the norm to be like that.

[mental tapir]

https://tenor.com/view/pedro-pascal-mandalorian-laugh-cry-gif-21495683

[autumn sorrel]

Tbf, Chesty got his fame from bayonet charging a rebel position early in his career plus the psychological effect of a bayonet charge is devastating to shaken enemy that has been soften by the flamethrower.

[narrow rover]

Weren't flamethrower operators focused upon quite often?

One of the worst jobs in the army tbh

[autumn sorrel]

Yes, they will priority number one at close range.

[autumn sorrel]

That’s why modern flamethrower either disguised like a normal rifle or you go the Russian route and just use thermobaric.

Seeing how some of the modern conflict are being fought, I have no doubt that flamethrower will be making a comeback.

[narrow rover]

I mean these days it's as simple as loading a dragon breath round into a shotgun and shooting it at the direction you want to light on fire

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah but Flamethrower is as much a psychological weapon as it is a physical one

There are few who can withstand that kind of attack. The intense heat and roaring sound of the jet stream can override your mind and force it into flight mode. Even if you are not directly attack by it, the scream of men being burnt alive is very terrifying.

[zealous vine]

Ty

I assume this would apply regardless if the calibre was rebored to something lower, as is with the 16"/56?

[narrow rover]

https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/皇統護持作戦

"Japan is what happens when you let the circus declare independence"
-Max0r

[tacit sage]

You saying Dragons Breath rounds just immediately made me think of the Wyvern Fire Ammo in Monster Hunter

[narrow rover]

Also goddamn Google translation quality for Japanese has improved dramatically

[autumn sorrel]

Who?

[narrow rover]

Youtuber

[autumn sorrel]

Nah, it still suck

[autumn sorrel]

Never hear of em

[narrow rover]

Look em up
God tier editing skills

[autumn sorrel]

Ah, slop

[grave ravine]

It's somewhere in between, whereas the gun, and thus the elevation and training mechanisms are the same size as the 18" it is based off of, the shells themselves may be somewhat lighter, and thus you can also save some weight on hoists

So you'd get some but not all weight savings, on a related note, you can approach this from a different direction and look at the fact that simply lengthening the barrel by 5/10 calibers can actually impose a pretty significant weight penalty due to the large moment

[supple sandal]

he is the guy that pioneered that slop editing style

[autumn sorrel]

Is there a book or documentary talk about River Gunboat and Ironclad during US Civil War?

[narrow rover]

Come to think of it, has anyone studied just how densely populated a country can get before social functions start to break down?

[autumn sorrel]

I don't think you can get a reliable example on that bc social breakdown rely on way more factor than just pop density

[autumn sorrel]

Also, you need to be specific on what you are looking for? Breakdown in law enforcement or sanitation? Breakdown in economic growth or social inequality?

[narrow rover]

More like how many people per square kilometer before "so many things have to go right to sustain this population, one bad harvest and people starve to death in droves"

[junior trench]

That happens regardless of density

It's just bad harvests rarely happen unless you severely fuck up ever since the green revolution

Though we do have a modern case study for it in Sri Lanka

[autumn sorrel]

Even during the worst time during a rebellion or lose of harvest bc of Yellow River flooding in China, there are enough food for high population center like Chang An thanks to their well oiled bureaucrat machine and logistic.

To have something like famine and starvation in large city mean breakdown of entire logistic chain and governmental power.

[narrow rover]

Really my question was spurred on by a certain election campaign by a Japanese political party back in the day
They wanted to increase Japans population to 300 million via natalist policies and immigration, and I was like "wait can Japans land even sustain a population like that???"

[autumn sorrel]

Tbf, Sri Lanka was like nearly a year bf it imploded. It doesn't happen overnight but through decades and you could say it the result of their civil war.

[autumn sorrel]

It will be like SK, Japan society need a change so big that you shake their entire working culture and view on life. Japanese like South Korean avoiding having family and kids bc frankly they can't afford it and their working culture basically sap out any joy.

If you want a better answer than yeah, pop density aka urbanization does have a negative effect on birth rate.

[narrow rover]

I'm calling it though, the country that finds a way to control their population at will, will be the next superpower...

The world will succumb to the human might of... Guyana
Who knows

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, Romania kinda do that with their pro natalist policies during Communist rule but frankly it was dumb bc their economy does not growth with more population nor it support their increased population. Worse, it lead to entire generation of people growing up in State run orphanage that barely better than work camp bc their family cannot sustain that many mouths.

[narrow rover]

No I mean
Not just "making people breed" and filling the streets with orphans
Creating the social conditions in which people more often than not choose to have children despite urbanization, and having the political system that supports it

I wonder which country will achieve this first...

[autumn sorrel]

Then you need to incentivize nucleus family and make it easy and affordable for children to be raise up.

[autumn sorrel]

It has been achieved decades ago. Problem is that government actions and corporate lobbying eliminate it.

[narrow rover]

More like no one has been able to pin down a direct cause
Current practices of trying to deal with the issue is honestly unsustainable and I'm not sure what will come first, cure to aging or someone finally bites down on the bullet and makes homes actually affordable

[autumn sorrel]

Here the thing about home, it is pure speculation right now on the world bc the older generation see it as an investment like stock instead of a place to live and raise family.

I am not well verse in Real Estate but I can tell you that this is a widespread phenomenon where housing are consider as an investment to be sold and hold for future profit instead of use. In some way, the 2008 Bubble is just a prequel, we never fix it and it keep getting worse year over year.

[sinful zenith]

Is there a website that has a lot of WW2 ship wreck reports and info

[grave ravine]

Malthus

[narrow rover]

I mean wasn't he horribly wrong

[grave ravine]

He is ofc a goober

[supple sandal]

So just raising wages

[grave ravine]

He uh predated the modern cycle of endless economic growth

[supple sandal]

Literally just raising wages

[autumn sorrel]

It will raise living standard as well

[narrow rover]

Never in human history has people just "raised wages" sadly

I think we'll just see retirement age pushed further and further back until anti aging measures become a thing. There have been surprising steps forwards in that department...

[spring briar]

we did

multiple times

[autumn sorrel]

Reminded me of the time Roman keep devaluing their coin to pay the Legions and then wonder why inflations are off the roof

[narrow rover]

I mean sort of?

The thing is the current situation with demographics is a first in human history

[spring briar]

in Belgium we index the wages to keep up with inflation

[autumn sorrel]

Richie, I have entire document of how French Aviation industry failed before the Fall of France and one the first thing they point out is that French worker despite raised wages and generous working conditions either refuse to increase productivity or strike whenever they feel like it

[spring briar]

also why are you discussing demographics

also acting as if it's a huge issue

[autumn sorrel]

Something about Japan politician want more populations

Same old thing.

[spring briar]

sure but
eventually we're going to have to just get to a sustainable population

[autumn sorrel]

Oh yeah, Richie, why France not big into Ironclad or Monitor type ship?

[spring briar]

and we're way over in some regions

France was very big into ironclads

[narrow rover]

It was me looking at a weird political ad and getting curious

[narrow rover]

Countries that aren't politically stable enough to deal with this is in trouble really

Thailand is TFR 1.0

[autumn sorrel]

I know, France pioneer Ironclad with their floating battery but why no Monitor type ship for the Med?

[spring briar]

monitor as in

the ironclad monitor

or the WW1/2 monitor

[autumn sorrel]

Civil War Ironcladd

[spring briar]

because

France had the capacity to build full size ironclads

[autumn sorrel]

I see

What are French assessment on US Civil War Naval action?

[spring briar]

not much
since what most union ironclads did in the late civil war 1864-1865 was done by french floating battery ironclads a decade earlier at Kinburn

[autumn sorrel]

I see, what about the effectiveness of mine and torpedo?

[spring briar]

not sure

[tacit sage]

So, I just had the silliest thought of trying to make a model based on the proposed US Flight Deck Cruisers, by mashing up other model kits. Something like a heavy cruiser base, with maybe the Independence Class superstructure, and stealing the flight deck of an escort carrier. It sounds really odd, I almost wanna try it at some point.

Make something so odd it'd make the WoWs development team blush

[zealous vine]

Alrightttt ty!!

[zealous vine]

I'd like to ask 1 more thing; how faster did the Americans obtain a firing solution with their radar than the Japanese?

[zealous vine]

From what I read, the Type 22 Surface Search radar spotted the following types at these distances (albeit with a 1/6~ chance of failure and a short duration of 3 hours before replacement): BBs at 35km~, Cruisers at 20km and DDs at 17km with hundreds of meters of margin.

The Go-22 Kai-4M Fire Control radar could generate some firing solutions, but could not help conduct blind fire and was relegated to assisting the main rangefinder.

The Japanese relied mainly on the optical rangefinder, which is fed to the Range-keeper and Computer, then to the Gun Director. Each unit required 7-8 men and were mostly positioned in different decks. The Gun Director does not utilize a remote power control system for the turrets but instead a "Follow The Pointer" system.

All of this, on top of having poor vertical element and no 'B' scope (which I'm guessing are the main crux as to why they weren't as successful in producing firing solutions), meant that there was a pretty big gap in terms of accuracy, automation and speed in their Firing Solution process.

(Do correct me if I'm wrong)

Were there any metrics or timings to measure between the 2?

[spiral cedar]

I do want to clarify that a firing solution is not necessarily "on target" and may still need further adjustment to actually bring the salvos on target. So I'll be dividing the entire process up a bit and covering adjacent topics somewhat outside the literal scope of what you asked.

I should note first that while things are much more complex than "US radar fire control, Japan no radar," the USN was indeed able to install surface radars across most of the fleet much sooner than Japan, utilize its radars much better, and develop better radars as the war went on. If we are taking a case of a Japanese ship using optical ranging only against a US ship using primarily radar ranging, we can find some advantages for the vessel using radar ranging.

First, we should consider how the process of radar vs. optical ranging works. In optical spotting, once an enemy force is detected, all available spotters will train their optics on the target (sometimes split over multiple targets, but in this case we'll just consider a single target case). This entails the topmost directors rotating to the bearing of the target, and (if possible) also the secondary directors and turret rangefinders doing the same to provide lower-quality spots as well. Within each rangefinding position, the spotter will use their stereoscopic vision to superimpose range markings onto the target vessel, and then adjust with knobs until they are satisfied. Then they'll press a button to send the range cut they've measured down to the fire control room. There the operators will input as many ranges as they've recently received, throw out obvious outliers, and then dump the average and other related info into a giant mechanical computer, which after a delay will spit out the required gun elevation and bearing (automatically converted for each turret, since they are offset from each other).

Once those are transmitted in the form of indicator dials to the turret crews, the crews align the guns and mounts to the needed bearings and elevations (the US fitted most of their guns with RPC during the war, which did this part electrically and automatically). Once the gunnery officer is satisfied, he'll push a button (or turn a key, or pull a trigger, or blow a whistle, depending on the ship), which will then cause the guns to all fire in unison once the ship reaches a pre-determined point in its natural roll that the fire control table agreed upon (some US guns had continuous elevation and thus could fire immediately, saving time). Then the whole process repeats, with the spotters in their directors having indicators for the expected time of impact so as to give the needed spot corrections to account for the many errors involved so that the next salvo will be closer to the target. There are many wrinkles and simplifications here (for example, usually only some of the rangefinders were actually giving range cuts, with the others dedicated to spotting fall of shot), but this is broadly how the process goes.

Radar ranging gives some advantages here. First, most obviously, it works even in low-visibility conditions, so at night or in foggy conditions it will detect a target and give a "better than nothing" range much earlier than optical systems alone. Next, it allows you to do so without revealing yourself—if you have to fire star shells or turn on searchlights, you reveal your own position with gun flashes or searchlight beams, so a prepared enemy can "fire from the hip" at your ship and (if at close enough range) have a decent change of scoring the first hit. Additionally, radar provides a continuous stream of ranges to the fire control room, which is faster and detects rapid changes in range sooner than optical spotters. All these factors combine to give radar-equipped ships an initial advantage.

As you point out, though, the IJN also got surface search radars midwar onward. Did the USN advantage persist, and if so, why?

The first major radar advantage the USN had over the IJN in getting an early firing solution was having 'better' surface radar at any given point in the war. Japanese ships generally went into the war without surface search sets, usually getting air warning sets first in 1942 and then surface search radars in 1943-1945. The IJN never put a dedicated surface fire control radar on their warships, though their surface search sets (Type 22) had a theoretical dual-use capability for rangefinding. The Kriegsmarine similarly tended to use dual-purpose surface radars for both search and fire control, but unlike the Japanese they installed ever more power into their sets over the years, allowing them to remain decently competitive with US and British sets in most aspects through war's end.

The USN by contrast was generally several years ahead. For comparison, the US SG search radar, present at the famous mid-1942 naval battles off Guadalcanal, had comparable ranging accuracy to the best Japanese surface radars in 1944—which gives an idea of the difficulties Japan will have at using its radars for surface gunnery purposes even late in the war. Even the US Mark 3 FC surface fire control radar (also fitted starting 1942), with ranging accuracy one-fifth of the midwar Type 22, proved insufficient for the 1942 night battles—again, a bad omen for Japanese radar ranging. The Mark 8 FH surface fire control radar, introduced starting early 1943, enabled West Virginia to obtain a firing solution on Yamashiro at an incredible 37000 yards at night at Surigao Strait—though she did not start firing until a bit over 22000 yards to avoid risking friendly fire while the torpedo boats and destroyers made their attacks first.

To give some examples, here's a comparison between two prewar cruisers, Takao and Portland.

Takao got her Type 21 air search in her July-Aug 1943 refit. She then received Type 22 surface search radar in her Dec 1943 refit. She received an E-27 radar warning receiver sometime in mid-1944 and a Type 13 air search radar as an addition in fall 1944.

Portland got her SC surface search, Mark 3 FC surface fire control, and FD air fire control radar shortly after Pearl Harbor in early 1942—she was using them at the First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal later that year. She then dropped her old SC surface search set in May 1943 for the better SG surface search set, as well as the SK air search radar. Then in 1944 she replaced her FC fire control with the Mark 8 FD fire control radar, which she used to devastating effect against Mogami at Surigao Strait—from a range of about 19000-20000 yards at night, she struck Mogami twice in the bridge (killing all the high ranking officers), once in the AA control station, and several times in the engine rooms, disabling 3 out of her 4 engine rooms within as many minutes. Only Portland's decision to switch targets spared Mogami from further pounding.

As an additional note, bigger ships tended to receive better sets earlier, though ultimately it was mainly repair and refit schedules that determined when exactly a given ship got the latest radar sets—ships damaged earlier often got upgrades sooner. These ships are more or less "average" for their respective navies in terms of getting radar, somewhere in-between the latest fancy wartime classes and low-priority vessels.

Range accuracy is an obvious statistic to point to, but it is not the whole picture. After all, while the Mark 3 FC fire control radar has great range accuracy (±40 yards, smaller the better), the Japanese were not getting disproportionately slaughtered in the 1942 nighttime gunnery duels despite facing many ships equipped with it. The Mark 8 FH fire control radar, by contrast, did allow the USN to inflict devastating damage to Japanese vessels from long range at night without visual spots, despite roughly similar range accuracy. Why?

The main suspects are a) range resolution, b) bearing accuracy, c) bearing resolution, and d) display. These are hurdles that even the best Japanese surface search radars did not overcome by war's end, so even though some variants had almost-acceptable range accuracy (from ±200m down to ±100m in some variants by 1944), they would still have been inferior to the insufficient Mark 3 FC from 1942, while still having over an order of magnitude worse bearing accuracy.

In the interest of saving time (and my fingers), I'll copy-paste an old write-up I did about the Mark 3 FC below, with some diagrams of the displays to illustrate.

It was a good fire control radar for its time (early/mid war), but was not fully satisfactory—not until the mid to later marks of the Mark 8 was a true "blindfire" fire control radar obtained.

The Mark 3's main limitations are threefold:

1. Mediocre bearing accuracy
2. Poor range and bearing resolution
3. A-scope display

Its main advantage was good range accuracy. This permitted a "better than nothing" firing solution to be obtained when visibility was zero.

First, a clarification of terms. Accuracy in this context is a measure of how close you can expect the given value (range or bearing) to be to the actual value, and resolution is a measure of how far apart radar contacts have to be apart to tell them apart. Thus, even if you have extreme range accuracy, if two or more radar contacts are within your range resolution, they will show up as the same object on your radar screen.

The Mark 3 had an average range accuracy of ±40 yards—far in excess of what even the best-trained optical spotters could achieve. However, its range resolution was ±400 yards, meaning pips within 400 yards over or under of the target could merge with the primary target. This made picking individual ships out of a formation more difficult, and could cause confusion when shell splashes overlapped with a target rapidly opening or closing the range—this was a common cause for the mistaken "sinking" reports of ships at Guadalcanal, where Japanese ships would "vanish" off the radar scopes after several salvos had landed on them. What really was happening was that Japanese warships would follow their evasive doctrine when under heavy fire of turning sharply away while laying smoke—the rapid rate of range change would often cause less-experienced radar operators to be disoriented by the overlapping pips on the A-scope and end up tracking a shell splash as the primary target, as the real ship leaves off the top of the screen. Combined with the smoke imitating a burning ship or oil slick, this led to many of the high overclaims during the campaign.

Bearing accuracy for an experienced operator could be brought down to as little as 4 mils (for the Mark 3 Mod 0 and 2) or 2 mils (for the Mark 3 Mod 1). For reference, a mil is about 1 yard in deflection at 1000 yards, so you'd expect 30-60 yard deflection errors at 15000 yards—seemingly quite adequate. However, bearing resolution was even worse than accuracy resolution—88 mils for the Mark 3 Mod 0 and 2, and 175 mils for the Mark 3 Mod 1. This corresponds to a bearing resolution of 1320-2625 yards at 15000 yards—easily more than typical formation spacing in a line ahead formation. Thus for a formation of ships, you could be landing every salvo in between two targets and never know you're off-target.

The net result of these two factors is that while accuracy in range and bearing was sufficient for the initial spot, range resolution was sufficiently poor that losing aggressively maneuvering targets was possible, and bearing resolution was inadequate for firing on multiple ships in formation. Most crucially, the poor resolution meant an inability to correct fall of shot—MPI (Mean Point of Impact) error was difficult to determine when every contact showed up as a pip 400 yards tall and 88 mils wide!

This ties into the A-scope display. The A-scope presents a "side view" of the target, which while sufficient for getting on target, lacked the situational awareness granted by an "overhead" 2-D view of the area that we are accustomed to today. This made it easy to lose maneuvering targets off the scope. It would take the Mark 8 fire control radar, with its overhead B-scope display, to finally fix this deficiency.

While the first-model Mark 8 would have the B-scope, the range and bearing resolution was initially not any better than the Mark 3—however later versions rapidly improved both, allowing in the end for the shooting performance seen at Surigao Strait by West Virginia, California, and Tennessee.

Japanese assessments at Guadalcanal indicate that the US ships were almost always on in range, but often off in deflection. This contrasted with their own ships, generally on in deflection but often off in range. This is due to the nature of optical spotting—comparatively poor in range, but even an inexperienced optical spotter will outperform even latewar fire control radars in deflection.

As a final point, the SG surface search radar also gave the USN an additional advantage with its PPI display. Unlike most Axis search radars which used an A-scope, the PPI provides the stereotypical circular sweep that we think of when we imagine radars today—giving a far more intuitive display that improved situational awareness and made losing targets less likely. This is really the main reason why US ships often got to fire first—just plain better situational awareness. One wrinkle in this is that Japanese destroyer doctrine was to launch torpedoes first, then only fire once the torpedoes had reached their targets so as to preserve surprise and not alert enemies to start taking evasive maneuvers. So in some battles without heavier ships, this can sometimes be the main reason why Japanese ships don't fire first.

[mental tapir]

Jaba essay jumpscare

(I kid, thank you for your writeups as always and helping keep the history aspect of AL communities going )

[zealous vine]

[narrow rover]

Pakistani truck-art. I really want to know the history behind this...

[gaunt owl]

Sickass truck

[zealous vine]

Pompadour

[supple sandal]

I wonder why cave painting is like mostly 2d

Like they draw more rectangle than cube

And egyptian hieroglyphs

I mean yeah sure, side facing birds make more sense than front facing

But I think it is funny that people back then doesn't draw sense of depth

How long did it take us to make the first map

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsXUqfh97Wk

[subtle prawn]

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2025/07/national-defence-signs-technology-partnership-arrangement-with-australia-for-arctic-over-the-horizon-radar.html
https://www.defence.gov.au/news-events/releases/2025-07-18/over-horizon-radar-technology-milestone-canada

[narrow rover]

It took until like the Renaissance for people to really get good at drawing tbh

Medieval paintings are also awfully 2D

[autumn sorrel]

Man, watching this from beginning till the end make you go from "French could stand a chance" to "How could they even survive?"

Admittedly, had French and British actually react to Annexation of Czech with actual war and not a phoney one then they could have had a chance to stop Germany right then and there.

[autumn sorrel]

It is more of choice of style. Not that they can't paint art with depth, seeing how the Roman expertly carved figures and scene on the Triumphs, it is more that it is the artstyle at the time.

[narrow rover]

You kinda have to get the idea that you can appease dictators out of everyone's minds

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ywwfDzRDE8

[near raptor]

Japanese Destroyer Captain was such an incredible book.

It’s so easy to say ‘the imperial Japanese were monsters’. But that simply isn’t true; at least not as an all encompassing blanket statement. Some of them definitely were, but others weren’t. The book held my undivided attention for hours; I felt such sadness when Yahagi was finally sunk. Even though I knew how the story ended; he had me rooting for his success. Captain Hara was an incredible writer, it was as though I was there in the middle of the action on the bridge of his destroyers.

He captured the hopeless feeling of fighting against an enemy so overwhelmingly superior that their technological superiority was indistinguishable from magic.

And the incompetence of high command; the repeated strategic blunders and the endless useless Commander-in-Chief Combined Fleet’s. Their utter fixation on a decisive battle caused them to throw away their entire fleet waiting for one.

[narrow rover]

To be fair they didn't really have another choice

Anybody can claim to win HoI4 style but
In reality?

The Japanese in particular had major lost cost fallacy syndrome

[mental tapir]

Crack alt-hist idea: The Final Countdown but it's the Chinese Carrier Shandong sent to 1937 China instead

[supple sandal]

And the Japanese would capture the carrier

[narrow rover]

It depends on whether or not the carrier people think of "China" at the time as "their" China, because it's a different regime at the time

And I'm guessing due to modern politics there'd also be people that wants to screw over the US

[supple sandal]

I remember someone said something about the most valuable thing the US in ww2 could get from their future boats is the library

[autumn sorrel]

If without it escort group then Shandong will eventually by overwhelmed. Her onboard munitions and replacements parts quite literally impossible to be resupply. Not to mention Shandong need fuel to operate, any prolong engagement and she is at risk of being out maneuver. Either she have to come to dock at any port that isn’t Japan controlled to refuel or risk stranded.

[autumn sorrel]

The technical books alone are priceless due to how much info it possessed

[supple sandal]

But which faction of China would get the carrier

[mental tapir]

I presume the crew would side with the then communists?

[autumn sorrel]

Depend on the Captain and Political Commissar on board

[supple sandal]

I presume that the carrier just there without any crew onboard
Sorry about that

[autumn sorrel]

Difficult to say, they still going to worship Map to a certain extent but modern Chinese history that are taught in school pretty much criticize him alot

[mental tapir]

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be excited to be under the command of cash my chequeChiang Kai Shek either

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, if the Captain and Political Officer get greedy and think that they can play kingmaker

[mental tapir]

The carrier becomes their own faction

[autumn sorrel]

Still no munitions

[mental tapir]

Limited munitions, limited fuel, yeah she's sadly probably not going to be able to do much eh

[autumn sorrel]

Fuel can be sorted out but unless they revert back to using dumb bomb then even if half of IJN are sunk then Shandong will either be captured or scuttled to prevent it from falling into anyone else hand

[supple sandal]

Do they have marines on board

[autumn sorrel]

She could easily sink all major surface unit of IJN, including their carriers and Battleships

[supple sandal]

If yes then raid the enemy bases for supplies

[autumn sorrel]

Yes

[supple sandal]

But then again

Japanese ww2 supplies is uhhhh

Meh

[autumn sorrel]

What kind of supply? Unless you talking about food stuff, meds and fuel then yeah but still not solving the munitions issues

[supple sandal]

Probably should just raid a major Japanese port that have air field nearby

[autumn sorrel]

Congrat, you just place Shandong between multiple IJN task forces

[supple sandal]

Great, now they can shoot everything

[mental tapir]

I'm still thinking of which factions they could best side with, British, Americans or Soviets

[autumn sorrel]

I am sure Shandong airgroups, aircraft technician and quartermaster officer will appreciate you for force them to do sortie constantly, 12hr shift non stop of aircraft maintenance and dwindling munitionsx

[supple sandal]

Fuck it we ball

[mental tapir]

Presuming they don't want to go with either the KMT or CPC

[autumn sorrel]

Aircraft need to come back to rearm and refuel, not to mention prolonged sortie without proper technical check can lead to loss of aircraft or serious accident on deck.

[supple sandal]

👍

Can they use ww2 bomb after used up all their modern munitions

Without significant modification

[mental tapir]

They can probably jerry rig something but it'd be far from ideal

[autumn sorrel]

Theoretically they can but where would they find those bomb?

And then they will be force into dive bombing, which need them to reduce speed and be in visual range of IJNAS CAP

And Shandong airgroup have only 24 J-15

[supple sandal]

Only

[mental tapir]

And presumeably fewer missiles than the Japanese have aircraft

[autumn sorrel]

They can store more as back up but that is wartime practices

[supple sandal]

Damn

[autumn sorrel]

Shandong will runout of AA missile before it can repel a textbook IJN combined strike group

[supple sandal]

So a final countdown situation is very annoying when you aren't the American

[autumn sorrel]

Pretty much

[mental tapir]

sad trvth

[supple sandal]

Can't the carrier just CIWS the Japanese aircrafts

[autumn sorrel]

Only power who could remotely reproduce what Shandong need is ironically US

[autumn sorrel]

They can but they only have 3 and Japanese pilot is not stupid, they will find another angle to attack

[mental tapir]

And 1937 US is still trying to claw their way of the Great Depression and is also isolationist

[autumn sorrel]

But seeing that you specified that this is 1937 then Japanese aircraft is not that great yet and their pilots is still not battle hardened

[mental tapir]

Yeah they'd still be flying A5Ms at best iirc

And biplanes

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah but they have the industrial base to produce anything as long as they have the blueprints and specs

[supple sandal]

1937 China is still fighting eachother and everyone

[mental tapir]

A real risk is the J-15s may stall trying to bring them down with guns

Or get hit by the debris

[supple sandal]

Why stall