Importantly, unlike the gun-armor dichotomy where bigger ships can carry bigger guns and more armor, and there is a sharp change in effectiveness if your armor stops the shell compared to punching through, and the bigger gun grants you better ballistics and better range and better damage and better penetration, the guided missile follows very different scaling rules. Long story short, it's better to have lots of adequate-sized missiles than a few big missiles, and because missiles require guidance systems that cannot be adequately armored (since they are emissive systems like radar, unlike guns that can be armored in turrets and rangefinders that can be protected against splinters), the only reliable ways to protect against enemy guided missile attack are a) force the missile to miss (e.g. chaff), b) destroy the missile (e.g. CIWS), or c) hit the enemy missile-aiming ship before it can aim its missiles into you. So the importance of ship size on guided missile scaling is entirely different compared to guns and armor, and the ideal "efficient" size of a missile warship is rather different (and smaller) than the ideal size for a primary gun warship. So the 'battleship' size category for surface combatants faded out over the course of the missile age (though some battleships did carry guided missiles, they weren't building missile-battleships from scratch, just using old hulls with new weapons), since it was better to just build more medium-size missile cruisers (or "guided missile destroyers" the size of WWII cruisers) and have survivability through redundancy since armor can't save your offensive (targeting) systems in this new era anyway.
#history
spiral cedar
So in a sense, the fading of the battleship and the rise of the carrier are contemporary, but while they interacted, the carrier did not replace the battleship because it filled the BB role of primary surface combatant--only the guided missile warships of the Cold War ultimately did that. Rather, they were both part of the same world war that saw rapid changes in aviation technology as well as the destruction of potential rival battleship fleets, so the major navies of the world took notice and adapted their fleets and doctrines to accommodate the new tactical and budgetary reality. So carriers did not make battleships obsolete, but World War 2 probably sped the process along quite a bit.
Done
remote monolith
thank you strong naval man
subtle prawn
https://fxtwitter.com/SAFRAN/status/1916417149628825661/en
https://fxtwitter.com/Airbus/status/1916423965863534660
muted dove
So in a sense, the fading of the battleship and the rise of the carrier are cont...
Thanks a lot for the indepth explanation! I like how you took into account further questions that arise and answered them too !!
spiral cedar
zealous vine
Did fire control systems of ww2 account for physical differences in turret positions?
Say, did they provide the same firing solution for Turret A and Z
(on an unrelated note, I wallow at the possibility of a proper surface fight happening at Samar..)
twilit geyser
For the US, it would be gradual, they've made kooky plans with the concept of missile battleships and monitor-esque designs in the Post-War and Cold War period, none ever came out of the drawing board like the USS Kentucky and its multiple plans to be an AA and missile platform, these never materialized because of aircraft carriers and the numerous cruisers the USN. It was only until that the eventual deactivation of the Iowas in the decline of the Reagan era in the 1990s and the start of the Surface Combatant 21 program (of which the Zumwalt-class is a part of) did the idea of battleships being obsolete was truly reinforced in the eyes of the US Navy.
As for the UK, well, they too tweaked up plans for missile armed KGVs and Vanguard herself in the immediate coming of the Missile Age, unlike the US, these didn't come to fruition not because of existing ships, but the lack of money the British had if they even attempted to build these, ultimately, their dreams of a Cold War battleship died much earlier than the US'.
France also tried this with plans for Terriers on Jean Bart, it too didn't forgo and it was much much earlier than the Royal Navy's.
The surviving battleships of the war like Italy's ships served as training ships, while others were reserved for the Soviet threat.
desert agate
Say, did they provide the same firing solution for Turret A and Z
At the distances involved in naval combat any minor adjustment in firing solution between turret could send rounds flying hundreds of yards
muted dove
is the circular thing on top a radar/weather probe?
mint quiver
Long story short
it was easier to lose a air wing compared to a BB
Much cheaper too
Economical,time,combat etc all spoke in favor of Carriers
runic ermine
It's nice to know that the Dutch are ever grateful
https://x.com/SCCambuurLwd/status/1915804067583955117?s=19
X
chilly osprey
Did fire control systems of ww2 account for physical differences in turret posit...
It depends on the fire control system. Most would account for turret parallax to some degree, but it was not equal.
spiral cedar
Did fire control systems of ww2 account for physical differences in turret posit...
Yes, since it was baked into physical positions on the ship it was a fixed adjustment on each turret for the fire control table
As Phoenix mentioned, though, there's two issues: the change in physical position and the change in required angle
The former, to my knowledge, was accounted for more frequently than the latter was
grave ravine
So in a sense, the fading of the battleship and the rise of the carrier are cont...
I don't entirely agree with this assessment, as you said at the very beginning the whole point of building the ultimate surface combatant was to obtain sea control, in the prewar assessment Battleships were the decisive arm of battle.
However over the course of WW2 that understanding shifts, so while battleships were still the ultimate surface combatant, it was from Carriers that sea power flowed, in the USN it was the creation of the Fast Carrier Task Force as the decisive naval battle fleet that really illustrates this
Thus while battleships were still the ultimate surface combatants, and valuable in that role, they were no longer the arbiters of sea control, instead their role in fleet battle was conceptualized as providing escort to the carriers
The carrier didn't replace the battleship in the literal sense of being a better surface combatant, but it did in the role of being the decisive arm of naval combat from which control of the sea flowed, and in the USN this shift of mindset really occurred over the course of 1942/43, culminating in the creation of the FCTF at the beginning of 1944
runic ermine
Opinions on the Spanish Civil War?
spiral cedar
I refer to this article by TC Hone, where he discusses the doctrinal transition in the Pacific Fleet (which, I'll note, is more narrow in scope than the broader global context of battleships and aircraft carriers). What made aircraft carriers necessary in every major Pacific amphibious operation was the threat of land based aircraft, which had advanced to the point that no fleet could afford the attrition from lacking air cover (Force Z being the obvious example). And, of course, if the enemy fleet (and its carriers) were expected to show up, you needed sufficient carriers of your own to maintain that local air superiority.
But even in 1944, and under the command of the most ardent advocate of airpower in the Navy, TC Hone describes the FCTF as follows:
The naval doctrine was not a switch from BB-centered to CV-centered, but rather a rebalancing of prewar combined arms doctrine with wartime lessons and experience influencing the organization. But airpower and surface power were both considered essential to winning the major battles (and indeed, Leyte Gulf is the prime example of the need for both). The repeated formation of battleships into battlelines during 1944 illustrates that they were not merely subordinates to the carriers, but themselves one half of the decisive arm—they just provided a useful role as AA when no enemy surface fleet was nearby and they had nothing better to be doing.
Does the CV play a greater role and exert more strength than prewar doctrine had anticipated? Yes, and I explained technological and tactical reasons why in my original answer. But as Hone notes, it's better thought of as a bigger role within a fundamentally combined-arms theory of battle that (at the high level, if not the details) already existed interwar and needed fine-tuning by war experience. The FTCF was an innovation in better employing carriers compared to earlier carrier doctrine, not a statement that the carriers had replaced the battleships.
spiral cedar
It is tempting to retroject our understanding of the modern US Navy onto the past and form a single narrative of linear change and evolution to frame historical events around. The lack of battleship actions in the Pacific, as well as the sheer tonnage sunk by aircraft (and subs), seems to support this. But we should consider how different our narrative of the Pacific War would be had Center Force fought the American fast battleships (whether at San Bernadino, pre-positioned for a night action by Halsey, or after Samar, had the erroneous contact report not sent Center Force in the wrong direction to engage its rival). These very easily could have happened, and indeed would have happened had (in the former case) Halsey not misinterpreted Center Force's course reversal the previous day, or had Kurita not been mistakenly informed the US BBs were to his north during Samar (leading him, in his effort to engage them, to miss them entirely). Indeed, US and Japanese contemporaries considered these very real possibilities (even, for many, the goal) and were blocked by the chance and fog of war, not by any doctrinal rejection to the idea. Again, both the Japanese Central and Southern forces, and the detached US battleline, were aiming to engage each other in a decisive surface action, not merely act as a screen for their own carriers or to hunt down enemy carriers. This intent directly tells to us something about what navies and admirals of the time thought these surface forces should be used, and indeed it was as a very active and aggressive half of the battle fleet, not a subordinate escort screen for the "real decisive arm" or anything of the sort.
The increasing power of aircraft (and the carriers) is absolutely relevant to the course of events at Leyte, which I discuss in my original answer as well--no one argues against that. But neither side thought it sufficient, and while Halsey clearly was a great advocate of naval airpower and used it extensively to weaken all the Japanese fleets at Leyte, he also always sent battleships to engage Japanese battleships if he thought they were approaching, rather than trying to back away to give the carriers more time to attack Japanese ships. Again, another half of the decisive arm, not a replacement or substitution.
chilly osprey
Opinions on the Spanish Civil War?
It really sucked for everyone involved.
runic ermine
It really sucked for everyone involved.
That sums up every war but I see what you mean here
chilly osprey
Yeah. It's one of those wars where even the winners were losers and to be honest all sides involved behaved atrociously.
Also, just to help illustrate Jaba's points WRT to battleship numbers post-war - this is cut short to 1975 but paints an easy enough picture in the mismatch between battleship fleets of the major NATO naval powers, and that of the USSR, after WWII:
The sheer absence of a real Soviet battleship threat really meant that there was not much of a reason to keep warships as costly as battleships around in service - and there were no other battleship threats to consider. WWI-era hulls tended to be discarded rapidly, and the 1930s builds stuck around in reserve for a time too, but those that remained were largely discarded once the Soviet battleship force ceased to be, and it was clear there would be no follow-ups.
The Iowa's remained active in this period largely because of the Korean War, but they were put back into reserve once that conflict was over.
It is also worth bearing mind that separate to the carrier question, the guided missile era starts in the 1950s for the USN.
The first converted Guided Missile Cruisers, the two Boston-class CAGs, enter service in 1955 and 1956, along with the converted DDG Gyatt..In 1958-60, the CLG conversions of the Galveston and Providence-classes (three each) enter service, as does the first Farragut-class Guided Missile Frigate (DLG) and Charles F. Adams-class Guided Missile Destroyers (DDG).
In fact, from 1960 to 1970, the USN will commission four more Guided Missile Cruisers - the purpose-built nuclear-powered Long Beach (CLGN, later CGN) and three Albany-class converted CAGs. The Farragut, Leahy, and Belknap-classes will yield 28 Missile Frigates (DLG) and two nuclear-powered variants (DLGN), Bainbridge and Truxton. The Charles F. Adams-class yeilds 23 DDGs, to which four conversions of Forrest Sherman-class destroyers into DDGs can be added, and the six Brooke-class DEGs.
(note all the missile frigates save the Farragut-class are reclassified as cruisers in 1975)
runic ermine
Yeah. It's one of those wars where even the winners were losers and to be honest...
I think that my biggest history hot take is that it was a good thing that Franco won the Spanish Civil War
Due to the fact that he was a "lesser evil"
chilly osprey
It is also worth bearing mind that separate to the carrier question, the guided ...
Likewise the 'missilezation' of the major European navies occurs starting with mid-late 1950s programs that bear fruit in the 1960s;
Italy commissions Europe's first guided missile ship in 1961, the converted Giuseppe Garibaldi, which is followed with two Andrea Doria-class CG's in 1964 and Vittorio Veneto in 1969. They also commission two DDGs in 1963-64 (the Impavido-class).
The British commission eight County-class DDGs from 1962 to 1970.
The Netherlands commissions a guided missile cruiser conversion in 1964 (De Zeven Provinciën), though they do not follow up on that in that decade.
France converts four fleet escorts into DDG equivalents, which enter service in 1965, and commission the first of two Suffren-class Guided Missile Frigates in 1967.
Germany also commissions its three Charles F. Adams-class destroyers, built for them by the Americans, in 1969-70.
spiral cedar
@muted dove Phoenix here has provided details and dates on the nature of the transition that you may find interesting (as I was rather vague on the precise timeline postwar)
runic ermine
X
zealous vine
The former, to my knowledge, was accounted for more frequently than the latter w...
I see..
velvet sinew
Opinions on the Spanish Civil War?
Lean towards Franco because of what the Republican side did to Catholics, Catholic Priests, and Catholic Nuns.
velvet sinew
I think that my biggest history hot take is that it was a good thing that Franco...
I agree.
muted dove
Likewise the 'missilezation' of the major European navies occurs starting with m...
Thanks a lot for giving me more details !
chilly osprey
No problem!
desert agate
Lean towards Franco because of what the Republican side did to Catholics, Cathol...
As opposed to what the Nationalists did to literally everyone else
Franco was a fascist who destroyed Spain so thoroughly that the country hasn’t recovered from the national trauma of his rule 50 years later
There were no lesser evils in Spain
Only winners and losers, and no matter which side would have won, the good people lost
desert agate
Please read Ecos essay on fascism it will highlight the absurdity of this quote
cyan oriole
obviously 80mm deck and phoenix said it all
the TLDR is that the role battleships filled became less and less important and more and more replaceable, until the point it did not justify the cost
the roles of the battleship are:
- defeat enemy battleships
- keep the area clear of enemy surface ships, usually a given if 1. is fulfilled since small ships will never want to engage
- flagship duties, AA support, shore bombardment, etc as needed
with the focus shifting to the carrier and the submarine, battleships were no longer the best to fill 1., since although they might be the most efficient, you still have to risk your ship to submarine/air/gun attack to sink an enemy battleship, while a carrier could just torment a battleship from safety hundreds of kilometers away. Why build battleships to sink other battleships when 100 times cheaper planes dropping guided bombs are nearly as effective without being as painful to lose?
2. likewise could be performed by a fleet of carriers and submarines, with missile ships filling in the gaps
and 3. is not critical and can be performed by cheaper units, like aircraft and smaller ships
lastly, carriers can fill a greater variety of roles than battleships (for example: striking naval bases or inland targets), and that versatility makes them more cost efficient, which obviously is a huge bonus
cyan oriole
Likewise the 'missilezation' of the major European navies occurs starting with m...
and the Halland class gains missiles in 1965/66
spiral cedar
I see..
To be a little more specific:
Imagine a 2-turret ship firing broadsides at a target some distance away. Clearly, if your forward turret is 300 feet apart from your rear turret, and you fired both turrets at the exact same bearing relative to your ship, the center of the shots from each turret would land 300 feet apart—far too wide, and much wider than historical dispersion patterns in deflection.
So when firing under director control (your main fire control room and director controlling all turrets at once), each turret has its own compensation system for parallax built-in so that their orders from the director are automatically translated into orders for that specific turret
There is another, related factor, that since the separation from director to each turret (fore-aft) creates a set of two right triangles (and the hypotenuse is longer than either leg), there is a very tiny difference in total distance (range) that the shell has to travel to reach the target. That, I believe, is usually not accounted for because it's so small relative to the ranges you're firing out to (smaller than the range dispersion patterns of the guns)
So as you can see, some parallax aspects are large and have to be accounted for, but others are small and generally ignored
https://maritime.org/doc/firecontrol/partc.php
This website has a lot about the topic of WWII era fire control (the page the above images are from is linked here but you can read from the beginning by going to the table of contents)
https://www.navalgazing.net/Fire-Control-Part-2
For a step-by-step explanation of how a US BB fire control system is hooked up, this is a good one
The gun orders are passed from the rangekeeper to the turrets themselves, where the last pieces are put into place. Mechanisms in each turret compensate for parallax (the offset between the turret and the fire-control reference point, usually the conning tower) to ensure that all of the shells land in the same place instead of producing a 400 ft pattern, as well as for barrel wear in each gun (which reduces muzzle velocity) and for any misalignment of the turret roller path with the ship’s level.
zealous vine
There is another, related factor, that since the separation from director to eac...
Tysm
May I ask something else; why did Halsey get jebaited by Zui at Leyte?
spiral cedar
Tysm
May I ask something else; why did Halsey get jebaited by Zui at Leyte?
Only have time right now for a brief summary, but in short:
The Fast Carrier Task Force operated on a rotating command basis, with one admiral back home planning the next operation and the other admiral leading from the front. The previous admiral, Raymond Spruance, destroyed the core of Japanese naval aviation at the Battle of the Philippine Sea by fighting defensively and chewing up the Japanese strikes with a strong CAP and the new VT shells, receiving very little damage as a result (a minor bomb hit on a BB). But in doing so, he had given up the opportunity to hit the Japanese carriers that day (IJN carrier attack aircraft had more range than USN ones so they launched from outside US carrier range, and the US carriers did not advance to get within range but acted defensively only instead). Earlier in the war (1942 especially), the great lesson of the carrier battles had been that the first strike wins—taking out enemy flattops is the fastest way to aerial supremacy in the region. So Spruance's decision, while operationally sound (he wanted to ensure the landing operation and transports were fully protected), contradicted wartime tactical lessons and made the traditionally aggressive aviators upset. The following day of battle, Spruance did manage to find the Japanese carriers, but only late in the day (due to a cautious nighttime stance to avoid night surface combat, at Adm. Lee's advice), and launched a daring long-distance twilight attack that did moderate damage but forced many US pilots to land at night and ditch their planes due to lack of fuel. While the Japanese carriers took serious losses in the battle, they were mostly due to submarine attack not air attack, and Spruance's apparent 'mishandling' of the carriers (he had been trained on surface ships, a 'black shoe,' unlike the aviator commanders, the 'brown shoes') drew the ire of many aviators who felt the chance to destroy Japan's carrier fleet with overwhelming material superiority had been lost.
While Spruance retained the confidence of his superiors, once Halsey (a brown shoe aviator) took charge, he was determined to do better than Spruance. In fairness, later analysis did show that while Spruance's approach did work to kill off most of Japan's carrier aviators—Japan spent all of 1943 rebuilding its carrier aviation only to lose them in 1 day of fighting Spruance—he lacked the aviation knowledge of a trained aviator and missed that he could have both covered the landings and struck the Japanese on that first day (as Mitscher pointed out to him). So Halsey's upset had some justification, even if the outcome was still very favorable for the US. In his view, Spruance lacked the necessary aggression for handling carrier forces, and he would show the world the true capabilities of the Fast Carrier Task Force with his own adept handling. He also likely harbored some envy that he had been sick before Midway and missed the battle, with the black-shoes Fletcher and Spruance earning all the credit for victory (and getting Halsey's beloved Yorktown sunk in the process) and himself not yet able to "bag" a major Japanese fleet carrier thus far in the war despite leading the carriers in so many raids and battles. Halsey wanted his prize.
We should also point out that Halsey did not know that Japan's aviation core had been destroyed at Philippine Sea to such an extent that Japan had given up at rebuilding it. Like most navies, the USN engaged in "mirror thinking," assuming its enemies thought and planned similar to how it did. The USN, which had concluded in interwar wargames that carrier pilot attrition would be horrific, created robust training pipelines to rapidly churn out decent-quality carrier aviators for the Pacific War ahead. Japan...simply did not. They could choose quality or quantity, and the "Turkey Shoot" at Philippine Sea after the Japanese tried to replace their 1942 losses with hasty 1943 replacements showed the consequences of their poor planning.
The USN, though, did not know this, and thought the Japanese could not possibly be so stupid as to not have trained and ready carrier pilots to replace their losses. So the USN assumed the Northern Force was a real and credible threat, and Halsey did the doctrinal thing and focused on the immediate danger, the carriers—the Japanese surface fleet could be attacked later once they got closer, and in other battles the Japanese surface fleet often fled after losing its air cover, so as Halsey saw it he was doing the doctrinal and standard thing. Perhaps he was overly aggressive in his pursuit, and perhaps he was partially motivated by his desire to have a Japanese fleet carrier notched on his belt—but with the fog of war, it was a reasonable choice to make at the time. His real failing was not so much falling for the bait, but rather committing totally to Northern Force and not stationing pickets to ensure Center Force was not going to force San Bernardino Straits (as it did in reality). Ironically, it may have been better had the aggressive Halsey been in command at Philippine Sea, and the careful and operational-minded Spruance been in charge at Leyte, but in the end, while Taffy 3's sailors paid dearly for Halsey's mistake, Center Force failed to find its intended targets and retreated, saving the invasion plan.
timber linden
Halsey probably figured the japanese would screw things up somehow and it would all work out in favor of the US
spiral cedar
If Halsey could see the future he wouldn't have run into all those typhoons
timber linden
If Halsey could see the future he wouldn't have run into all those typhoons
Someone had to keep the shipbuildiers in the states busy.
runic ermine
I just came across something about this topic
https://youtube.com/shorts/6UW7LY423SA?si=C1Ef0rQfra1EIAKP
muted dove
I just came across something about this topic
https://youtube.com/shorts/6UW7LY4...
I see, interesting
what the hell was that at the end lol, where is that track traverse aircraft carrier from
maiden stirrup
Not technically "history" since it happened today.... But it'll definitely end up in the history books: (particularly since this has happened to the Truman twice now) https://theaviationist.com/2025/04/28/f-a-18e-and-tow-tractor-lost-at-sea-during-operations-aboard-uss-truman/
mental tapir
The USN, though, did not know this, and thought the Japanese could not possibly ...
Just like that, Halsey denied us a chance at a real Iowa vs Yamato showdown, unforgivable
Still such a cool what-if though
https://youtu.be/35yLWdYEbZQ
runic ermine
Not technically "history" since it happened today.... But it'll definitely end u...
NOT THE TOW TRACTOR!
spiral cedar
Was not really a fan of his TF34 video tbh
Kurita’s postwar interview is fascinating stuff
mental tapir
Was not really a fan of his TF34 video tbh
Well that's another thing to scroll through, thank you
cyan oriole
I mean it's Drach, his videos are for a more casual audience
mental tapir
Was not really a fan of his TF34 video tbh
Hmm, is his theory that the battleships, cruisers and destroyers would separate out and ship-type-1v1 each other until one side or the other is defeated before helping ships of other types credible though?
spiral cedar
Hmm, is his theory that the battleships, cruisers and destroyers would separate ...
It's sort of a grand-orchestra view of battles that seems to make sense on paper, but is very rare in real naval battles. Usually what's more common is "phases" of battles where the longest-ranged (i.e. big guns) engage each other first (most immediate threat), with the screening forces holding back to avoid interfering with the high-priority fighting. Then when one side finds itself at a position of dissadvantage, it'll commit its screening forces to disrupt the enemy attacks and buy some breathing room to recover its position and decide if and how to reengage. Think the German DD charge at Jutland, or the US DD charge at Komandorski. Generally speaking the only result of sending waves of DDs CLs and CAs out in front of the BB duel is a big messy melee where everyone suffers terrible casualties due to confused fighting and friendly fire while the CICs struggle to keep up with everything--something most commanders try to avoid (but does happen under bad-visibility conditions e.g. at night)
It might happen in a wargame with perfect control, but in real naval actions with overburdened comms and real morale, ship formations rarely fight to the end (except for massive mismatches in power where there's little choice) and instead disengage if they're losing badly--after all, ships are expensive and losing your ship to achieve very little is much worse for the captain's career than disengaging and fighting another day
And nothing plays havoc on a clean pristine naval battle like a bunch of ships making smoke and turning away
runic ermine
Anniversary of this:
https://x.com/MilHistNow/status/1917155900722479445?s=19
X
supple sandal
supple sandal
Anniversary of this:
https://x.com/MilHistNow/status/1917155900722479445?s=19
Feeling funny about the fact that the air force will hold a parade in Saigon today
With helicopters of all things
chilly osprey
and the Halland class gains missiles in 1965/66
True, but she's not a guided missile ship. Big difference between having some very early AShMs versus the capability brought by guided missile ships with the multirole area SAMs.
subtle prawn
zealous vine
The USN, though, did not know this, and thought the Japanese could not possibly ...
That ran deeper than I thought
Wow
spiral cedar
A lot of historical decisions that seem arbitrary or silly to us now often have a long chain of reasoning and circumstances leading up to them. That doesn't mean that the decisions were always right with hindsight, but they generally had solid reasons to do so given their knowledge and experiences leading up to the moment
spiral cedar
I don't disagree, but this probably isn't the channel for it
remote monolith
er, yeah, this is neither her or there for this channel
mental tapir
I don't disagree, but this probably isn't the channel for it
A more channel-appropriate question then: what were the VPAF pilots' takes on guns vs missiles, or were they mostly just happy to use whatever was available to them?
supple sandal
whatever available
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
zealous vine
I don't disagree, but this probably isn't the channel for it
Referring back to the Halsey discussion, were BBs not just as glorious as CVs to sink for the Americans?
timber linden
Referring back to the Halsey discussion, were BBs not just as glorious as CVs to...
CVs were a bigger threat to command. See yamato during its field trip to Okinawa at the end of the war. You could drown bbs in air power without a chance of counterattack.
zealous vine
CVs were a bigger threat to command. See yamato during its field trip to Okinawa...
Wait, did Halsey even get a single hint of any other threat aside from the Northern force
timber linden
Wait, did Halsey even get a single hint of any other threat aside from the North...
He probably knew that the southern force was dunked on my the pearl survivors
Center force....I want to say turned back after the lost of mushi so Halsey was probably under the impression they retired from the battle
Probably thinking the japanese didnt want another running into a line of battleship dunkfest that the south was
Americans might have done worst if task force 34 was still there. Seeing that yamato was designed for that battle. Taking on multiple enemy battleships at the same time.
Until americans got sick of the game and bring in air arm to finish everything off.
velvet sinew
Please read Ecos essay on fascism it will highlight the absurdity of this quote
That quote is from Giovanni Dolfin's book. (*"Con Mussolini nella tragedia: diario del capo della segreteria particolare del Duce, 1943-1944" *) Dolfin also served as Mussolini's private secretary for the first five months of the Italian Social Republic.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Dolfin_(politico)
The pic that I sent is from "Revolutionary Fascism" by Erik Norling. Norling got it from Dolfin's book.
In addition, Umberto Eco's definition of Fascism is a bad one because he sees Fascism as a "beehive of contradictions" and ignores Fascism's actual doctrines, ideas, and beliefs. The historians A. James Gregor, Stanley G. Payne, Renzo De Felice, and Zeev Sternhell have a better understanding of Fascism. I recommend these historians and I also recommend you to read Giovanni Gentile's(the philosopher of Italian Fascism) works.
spiral cedar
Referring back to the Halsey discussion, were BBs not just as glorious as CVs to...
BBs were nice to sink, but you have to prioritize what is an immediate threat to you first. Zuikaku's planes could inflict damage sooner than Center Force's ships could, so Northern Force was priority (though Center Force did get hit too). Same reason why the Japanese target list put CVs at the top during Pearl Harbor, even though the goal was to sink US BBs—the CVs could strike back before the Kido Butai withdrew; the BBs would not be able to
That being said, Halsey's singleminded focus on Northern Force to the exclusion of Center Force was probably influenced by his personal background as a carrier aviator and thus his prioritization is probably affected by the reasons I mentioned in the first response
subtle prawn
spring briar
velvet sinew
😔
mental tapir
🕯️
autumn sorrel
A more channel-appropriate question then: what were the VPAF pilots' takes on gu...
Whatever available to us. VPAF pilot prefer dogfighting, mostly due to the limitations of missile but also to maximize the advantage to MiG-19. Even if they fail to shot down USAF pilot then force them to abandon mission is also count as a win.
When MiG-21 with missile are provide, VPAF unit with those change tactic to Soviet style interception using ground control to direct fire. Only at the discretion of ground control that the pilot can engage with gun when missile are all expended.
runic ermine
https://fxtwitter.com/ITM_archives/status/1918016014345793706
Rest in peace
muted dove
is there any place where I can find the current/last updated locations of all 11 US aircraft carriers?
Kinda interested in knowing which bases they are stationed at, I assume some of them must be scattered across europe and asia too
grave ravine
is there any place where I can find the current/last updated locations of all 11...
Only shows the deployed ones, but for the rest you can just Google the ship's homeport
fierce sparrow
So... M10 Booker just cancelled... ouchies
subtle prawn
I dunno, I read a story about how a good portion of the bridges at that base weren't capable of handling the M10's weight
subtle prawn
muted dove
Only shows the deployed ones, but for the rest you can just Google the ship's ho...
Thanks a lot!
mental tapir
TIL the de Havilland Vampire was apparently the first RAF aircraft to exceed 800 km/h
Did the first Gloster Meteors not exceed that speed?
mental tapir
TIL the de Havilland Vampire was apparently the first RAF aircraft to exceed 800...
On 7 November 1945, a Meteor F.3 set the first official airspeed record by a jet aircraft at 606 miles per hour (975 km/h)
Okay, so probably wikipedia misinformation
runic ermine
Okay, so probably wikipedia misinformation
Unsurprisingly
worn parcel
timber linden
<:HornetBruh:721896663928537130> So... M10 Booker just cancelled... ouchies
Nothing of value was lost
runic ermine
Reminder that Pol Pot topped Ante Pavelić's percentage to population killed
And that he is one of few to do so
mystic linden
Anyone else that got close to that number next to polpot?
Does Lopez of Paraguay count?
runic ermine
Anyone else that got close to that number next to polpot?
Ante Pavelić
And it's not about numbers here but about percentage to population
mystic linden
Taiping rebellion?
Does that count?
I mean the amount of people killed is impressive considering the amount of people previously killed by other previous rebellions and people who would be killed by later rebellions.
runic ermine
What about scale it with...
Population to how many people were killed
supple sandal
I mean countries with bigger population will not make it to the top
Since we're talking about percentage
Instead of calculating the whole country, just do the province or region
Yes we are still doing the percentage
But reduced the area involved
runic ermine
It's nice to know that the Dutch still remember us
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/article/you-are-not-forgotten-canadians-honoured-on-80th-anniversary-of-netherlands-liberation/
X
subtle prawn
fierce sparrow
proper roost
rigid cargo
runic ermine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DCZAsZBuqw
Very cool
runic ermine
@desert agate I got a question and I think you could answer it because I can't find it. Where does the stereotype of Australian soldiers being disobedient towards officers come from?
mental tapir
Huh, TIL
supple sandal
Til?
subtle prawn
Today I learned
terse mesa
remote monolith
Armchair Historian
I'm...gonna call it a no on him
aside from that Teutoburg isn't even the worst military disaster Rome as an entity ever experienced
narrow rover
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
cyan oriole
https://youtu.be/5M8gg51UytY
whoa warships unarchived is Sanglune's blog name, didn't know he had a yt channel
timber linden
lusitania sank 110 years ago
Lusitania sunk
British Admiralty: oh no, our arms shipment....I mean.....all those people
desert agate
<@286885038208057344> I got a question and I think you could answer it because I...
I just wrote a really good and well thought out explanation for this only for the picture upload to fail and delete everything I just wrote
I guess I'll kms, but while I do that, you can read about this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Wazzir#:~:text=The main riot took place,many of whom were intoxicated.
It's basically where the stereotype comes from
The stereotype isnt entirely untrue for the 1st AIF (excluding the Light Horse), but the 2nd AIF and the professionalised army that existed post-WW2 never experienced any major incidents of ill discipline (unless the incident in Brisbane counts)
The boys of the first AIF were constantly compared to the Light Horse, often derided as poor soliders during the AIFs training period before deployment to Egypt. The Light Horse was Australia's only professional military force that existed pre-war that deployed overseas, and admittedly, they were some of the best soldiers of their kind, but this ridicule left the citizen-soldiers of the 1st AIF with a chip on their shoulder
During the extensive training period of the AIF in Egypt from December to April 1915, ANZAC troops were given leave in Cairo. These Australian soldiers, predominantly young and predominantly had never been overseas, let alone anywhere as foreign as Egypt (In fact, many soldiers had never left their home towns in the outer regions of Australia, as the Australian capital cities were not yet as dominant in population as they are today), so the unrestricted access to brothels and cheap booze (Australian soldiers were better paid than their British counterparts) was a serious culture shock to these boys
The riots in the Wazzir, which the Wikipedia article is about, were primary the ANZAC soldiers taking revenge on the shopkeepers and publicans who had overcharged them, and the brothels and sex workers that had spread STIs throughout the divisions
Keep in mind, this riot occurred just days before the AIF was set to embark for the now legendary landings at Gallipoli, many of these boys figured this would be their last time in friendly land, and they wanted to have a good time
Discipline was still a problem for the 1st AIF throughout the war, but incidents would become far more isolated, there were for example no major riots involving AIF troops in France or Palestine, by the time of the 2nd AIF, these cultural issues were mostly dealt with, 2AIF soldiers were more professional and better disciplined in WW2
The stereotype is definitely well earned, but also well overplayed
The Australian to my mind were the most aggressive and managed to keep their form in spite of their questionable discipline. Out of the line, they were undoubtedly difficult to handle, but once in it, they loved a fight. They were a curious mixture of toughness and sentimentality.”
LT GEN Sir Adrian Carton de Wiart, VC
Another reason for poor discipline among AIF troops was that, particularly in France, the AIF fought on the hardest parts of the front and experienced casualties which reflected it. The AIF experienced a casualty rate of 65%, among the highest of any army in the war. I don't think it's entirely unfair for these soldiers to have been quite rowdy out of the line as a result.
The predominantly rural and agricultural nature of the Australian population in the 25 years following federation (The 6 capital cities had yet to become dominant demographically) had created a soldier who was tough, and capable in a fight, but had instilled a distinct attitude of individualism which was either underestimated by the predominantly urban Australian/British commanders of the AIF, or was too strong to be properly rooted out
runic ermine
Another reason for poor discipline among AIF troops was that, particularly in Fr...
Thanks for the explanation
subtle prawn
mental tapir
Air-to-air version of Patriot strapped to an F-15EX when
rapid cairn
spring briar
Based
mental tapir
subtle prawn
remote monolith
Masurian Lake and Tannenberg were one hell of disasters
narrow rover
A lot of WW2 commanders too lived to be 90+ for some reason
Perhaps everything else was easy when you survive WW2...
runic ermine
This guy is incredibly well for 103 years old
He looks young for someone who's that old
winged patrol
muted dove
how on earth is a plane supposed to land on this? why did they fill it to the brim with planes
mental tapir
The angled deck is cleared during landing operations
versed tree
how on earth is a plane supposed to land on this? why did they fill it to the br...
It would be cleared when theres one landing
timber linden
how on earth is a plane supposed to land on this? why did they fill it to the br...
Parallel parking is a skill that is quickly learned
subtle prawn
desert agate
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2025/may/australias-next-frigate-oppo...
I wonder why the active serving JMSDF personnel would be writing in favour of an RAN acquisition of the Mogamis 
subtle prawn
I have heard the bigger Mogami is the favored one to win
desert agate
Internal discussion are classified but the Mogami is the design that the political class favours
I personally lean closer to the Mogamis but I think that there are some seriously good arguments for the MEKO platform, primarily related to existing interoperability with the Anzac class
supple sandal
autumn sorrel
https://youtu.be/QunPJIetDdM
Yeah, I watched this
supple sandal
got relegated to nothing more than a really expensive yacht
I would rather take battleship than a stupid yatch
runic ermine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEdMnVJn3mc&ab_channel=ABCNewsIn-depth
What is being bought?
subtle prawn
What is being bought?
tacit sage
The art for the prelude event is stellar so far.
Reminds me of the times I’ve been on museum ships
Fair to say they seemingly did the research well
Not totally sure what ship this is supposed to be on though.
desert agate
What is being bought?
Consider watching the video
subtle prawn
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1922734492764057760
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1922734496597647468
somber knoll
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPE0-6CqUP0
Kraut Magic at its finest
subtle prawn
woeful heath
Question, what do ya'll think why Japan didn't make better AA guns?
the 25 mm Hotchkiss is comparatively similar as the 20 mm oerlikons (in performance)
the 10 cm DP was the greatest they have IIRC
but why didn't they make mass-production of 40 mm bofors equivalence?
chilly osprey
Because they lacked the industrial capacity to switch over to a new AA weapon and put it into mass production so quickly after doing so with the 25mm.
The 25mm was introduced relatively recently from when WWII started, replacing a mix of lighter machine guns and above all the Vickers 40mm/39.
It did have higher performance than that WWI era weapon or MGs, so it was a valid pick on the part of the IJN - but it was also not really good compared to the best of the 37-40mm offerings available at the time (few as they were).
It's also worth bearing in mind that the original Bofore 40mm design - which is what the Japanese captured from the British in early 1942 - actually sucked as a design, as far as productivity goes. It was designed for low rate production in Sweden, not mass productions - hence why the Americans entirely redesigned theirs before putting it into production.
Japan did try to build more Bofors 40mm based on what they captured from the British, but the volumes they could produce were very limited and the guns had problems. So in the end, given they were already having issues producing enough 25mm guns and ammunition to supply all their ships, it just made no sense to switch to a new AA gun system (especially the difficult to produce Bofors 40mm).
subtle prawn
It's also worth bearing in mind that the original Bofore 40mm design - which is ...
Do you mind telling me what design changes the Americans made to make the 40mm Bofors easier to produce?
mental tapir
The USN, though, did not know this, and thought the Japanese could not possibly ...
Thinking about this again, and this makes me wonder how badly damaged USN aviation would be if they were the one who took IJN-level of aircraft losses at Philippine Sea instead. Would they have recovered enough pilots and aircraft in time for Leyte?
cinder escarp
Do you mind telling me what design changes the Americans made to make the 40mm B...
effectively the whole thing
The bofors gun was very much a craft piece, with tons of 'file to fit' parts
(and it was all in metric)
The USN converted it all to SAE and made parts mass-producable.
subtle prawn
So the Bofors of Theseus then
cinder escarp
As a result, there's few parts you can directly share between an original swedish produced gun and a US one.
Even if they are the same design.
timber linden
Thinking about this again, and this makes me wonder how badly damaged USN aviati...
Yes
rapid cairn
She's so pretty
this is the best video on details regarding the ship itself
like damn didn't know she had these on
tulip escarp
like damn didn't know she had these on
Maybe rocket anti-air
Lol
I love Montana Class
rancid plume
Okay, who here is a history guru? Something is very much bothering me. HMS Lion, unless I have the information incorrect, was 1938. However, I can't find any records she was involved in battles. Am I missing something here?
subtle prawn
She was laid down, but cancelled
grave ravine
Okay, who here is a history guru? Something is very much bothering me. HMS Lion,...
The Lion class was never actually completed, they were designed in 1938 and ordered in 1939, though construction didn't get underway until late in 1939 and it was suspended May 1940
subtle prawn
As in, never completed
grave ravine
they then underwent redesign in 1942, but construction never actually resumed and what little had actually been built was scrapped in 1943
The RN would instead build Vanguard to save time and money
rancid plume
So what reason does she have to be in the game, if she was laid down, but cancelled? She saw no action, it was only constructed, that's it. Is it because she was recongized as an actual ship DURING that time period? I know AL bases their ships off the real ones
grave ravine
So what reason does she have to be in the game, if she was laid down, but cancel...
This is far from the first ship they have added that was never finished, there have been ships added that never even begun construction
Unzen is basically entirely fictional
Bismarck II obviously has no basis in reality
subtle prawn
So what reason does she have to be in the game, if she was laid down, but cancel...
There are way more egregious cases than a cancelled battleship
grave ravine
UvH, and Soyuz were also both cancelled while under construction, with similarly little work having been done on UvH
Alsace never even really got that far, they had just started ordering materials when France fell
rancid plume
So, my understanding, and I could be wrong on this, is they go off historical records from actual ships, built or otherwise, am I at least correct on that??
grave ravine
Raffaelo is based on a design that never even got to the point of being ordered IIRC
grave ravine
So, my understanding, and I could be wrong on this, is they go off historical re...
Mostly, but there are some egregious erros
as mentioned Unzen is basically entirely fictional
rancid plume
Mostly, but there are some egregious erros
errors?
grave ravine
as mentioned Unzen is basically entirely fictional
product of a postwar Japanese magazine
and WoWS
Bismarck Zwei is ofc nonsense
subtle prawn
Unzen is based on some design requirements for a new class of heavy cruisers, no?
rancid plume
as mentioned Unzen is basically entirely fictional
I always wondered why she has "IJN". she never existed at all?
subtle prawn
Because I do remember reading that they did put out requirements for one with four triple turrets
grave ravine
Unzen is based on some design requirements for a new class of heavy cruisers, no...
Circle 6 called for a new class of 8" heavy cruisers IIRC, but the actual specs used for Unzen are based on that of the Zao from WoWS, which was based off a postwar Japanese magazine article, and the name Unzen similarly comes from that article
rancid plume
wow
subtle prawn
Huh, I thought they just picked a random mountain name for her for some reason, never thought the name would be from a magazine
grave ravine
as far as we know no design work for the proposed new Circle 6 heavy cruisers actually happened (as Circle 6 was just complete pie in the sky), and if it did none of it survived
and others have elaborated on all the problems with Zao and the magazine design in this channel
subtle prawn
Something something, torpedo launchers at the rear
rancid plume
that's wild ngl
grave ravine
so yeah Unzen is the one that really kinda jumped the shark in terms of being just total made up nonsense, along with ofc Bismarck Zwei
but like it was already frustrating that Manjuu considered the Kriegsmarine to be a major navy, since they just really weren't in the period, and to keep them at all competitive in game they had to just keep adding nonsense Plan Z ships, but those at least mostly had actual period designs, even if they were insane Nazi nonsense
subtle prawn
I would have thought you would call Rumey one as well considering her design is what most would call a napkin design
grave ravine
I would have thought you would call Rumey one as well considering her design is ...
Rumey also isnt the first nonsense Plan Z ship (UvH is also Plan Z, but they did actually start building H-39s, even if they went absolutely nowhere) to be added, but she is the first UR one
but I also kinda gave up entirely on German events as far as history goes after Bismarck Zwei
subtle prawn
Actually, how do you know which version of Lion-class design she's based off of anyways? I recall the British making design changes a few times throughout the war
rancid plume
Actually, how do you know which version of Lion-class design she's based off of ...
There is 3 that I found, the first is 1910, the second is 1939, the third was 1944
grave ravine
Actually, how do you know which version of Lion-class design she's based off of ...
I don't think there is any way to tell based off the rigging if she is based on the 1938 design or the 1942 revision, but since her gear equip is the 16" Mk II, it can't be any later than the 1942 revision
grave ravine
There is 3 that I found, the first is 1910, the second is 1939, the third was 19...
The WW1 battlecruiser is an entirely different ship from the unbuilt WW2 battleship
rancid plume
The WW1 battlecruiser is an entirely different ship from the unbuilt WW2 battles...
I had a feeling it wasn't the 1910 one
runic ermine
Anybody here know about the War of 1812
woeful hull
Anybody here know about the War of 1812
War of 1812? No sorry..
Crap wrong photo
The Bell of HMS Hood and HMS Prince of Wales
eternal veldt
I don't think there is any way to tell based off the rigging if she is based on ...
The 1942 design called for additional splinter protection to the 5.25" guns, which most likely would involve reinforcing the mount and may include visual differences - not sure if this eventually led to the RP 10 Mark I* gunhouses on Vanguard.
And since AL's rigging at this point has devolved to the point of just "Look at what is on WG and use that as a reference point", Lion has a very likely chance of being the 1938 Lion, because thats what WG chose to do - in some odd ways.
The revisions made in 1939 and 1942 respectively are going to be applied to the 210 ton laid down Lion and the ~140 ton Temeraire, so personally at this point its a semantic difference.
As for Unzen, the 1941 cruiser at some point did mention trying to use 203 triples, so there is that - but almost everything about Unzen as a design makes zero sense from the IJN standpoint.
Rumey for the most part as you are aware is at least based on the hybrid Flugzeugkreuzer- with a hybrid being a rather alluring concept to the KM of providing both firepower and aviation capability on the same hull. Its not feasible as per GZ's designer Hadeler, so its not on "complete fiction" territory...yet.
eternal veldt
Raffaelo is based on a design that never even got to the point of being ordered ...
And forgot to mention this one as well, Raffaello is a proposed name for Italian BBs, so either through research or sheer coincidence, Manjuu nailed the name. Unfortunately the naval world tends to see UP.41 - the soviet export of the 1935 version of the ongoing battleship study in the RM - as the endpoint of Italian battleship development, but local Italian development of a 406mm, 42-45k ton ship continued up until 1941, where they were still being modified and were intended to follow the repeat Littorios (i.e. Impero, Roma), but war.exe killed off any hopes of doing that.
miles better than Marco Polo as a name.
subtle prawn
And forgot to mention this one as well, Raffaello is a proposed name for Italian...
Huh, I remember in another server a few months ago somebody thought the name "Raffaello" was a questionable choice because no actual warship had that name
eternal veldt
Fortunately for us, documents exist.
You also see the familiar Giuseppe Verdi and Michelangelo.
desert agate
So, my understanding, and I could be wrong on this, is they go off historical re...
There is no consistent basis for deciding what ships are added to the game or what historical evidence they are based on
The standard has changed so much over the years (Ibuki would have just been a normal ship in modern times) to the point where there is no longer a minimum required historical standard
Most non-pr ships in the Iron Blood or NP fleets were barely even complete designs let alone actually laid down
grave ravine
And forgot to mention this one as well, Raffaello is a proposed name for Italian...
alright thanks for summing all of this up
tacit sage
So I got curious and I’m looking at info on HMS Lion and what guns she was supposed to have (as well as what she has in WoWs), and was wondering, would her “Historical” secondaries be the Twin 134 High Angle Guns?
In regards to what we have in-game
Nvm, figured it out
hardy spade
HMS FORMIDABLE's 4.5in battery opens fire at night. The armoured carrier fired one volley at the Italian ships before seeking to hide in the darkness.
hardy spade
Thank god they turned that down lol
autumn sorrel
How exactly does AN/SLQ-25 Nixie work against wake homing torp? I know it can create decoy noise but aren't the wake homer will keep bouncing inside the wake until it hit the ship?
cinder escarp
It'll keep going after the fake noise until it hits the nixie or runs out of energy
The actual decoys on the nixie are expendable
narrow rover
eternal veldt
Very interesting word usage, but neither accurate nor appropriate
Atago shone a searchlight on South Dakota, which Kondo's force including Kirishima fired upon - the second ship in the US line,USS Washington, was not illuminated and was thus left alone - it was still identified, erroneously as a sinking "Idaho class".
Contrary to popular belief, South Dakota was not hapless, and her 5" guns did return fire at the offending searchlight
remote monolith
I just saw someone made a metaphor for battle of Leipzig and Waterloo as the final nail in the coffin, then a zombie burst out of that coffin and the embalmers had to reseal the rampaging zombie back in with tighter nails and letting the coffin float into the sea
runic ermine
https://tenor.com/view/yaya-gif-20936327
That battle happened after the peace treaty was signed btw
subtle prawn
timber linden
That battle happened after the peace treaty was signed btw
I am sure the brits would have given it back if they won.....
God could you imagine cajin food if the city was run by the brits.....
runic ermine
I am sure the brits would have given it back if they won.....
They probably would have to because of the treaty of ghent saying "Status Quo"
timber linden
They probably would have to because of the treaty of ghent saying "Status Quo"
Come to think about: what is the historical president on this matter.
runic ermine
Come to think about: what is the historical president on this matter.
Like who believes who won?
timber linden
Like who believes who won?
If territories change hand after the treaties were sighed. Cases of parties having to give back territories won after the battle was fought.
runic ermine
If territories change hand after the treaties were sighed. Cases of parties havi...
I think it depends on how the treaty is worded
fast nimbus
Hopefully I can roll for this ship soon.
tacit sage
Hopefully I can roll for this ship soon.
Aye, you’re at Patriots Point?
fast nimbus
Aye I finally got to Laffey and the Fighting Lady, Yorktown today. It’s great that I got to see these legendary ships for free.
tacit sage
Aye I finally got to Laffey and the Fighting Lady, Yorktown today. It’s great th...
Nice, I got to go last year. They’re both really nice museums.
paper ingot
guys
does anyone have explanation about French and Britain's relationships?
i always think that they used to be ally back then
but is that true?
remote monolith
they were Allies yes throughout the 20th century, but before the unification of Germany in 1870 traditionally Britain sought to limit French influence in Europe and abroad, making them rivals
the emergence of Germany that unified in expense of France however changed the equilibrium, and after Germany started embarking on a program to equal and surpass Britain militarily on land and sea Britain began a shift to back up the French to counter Germany
narrow burrow
noooo they where expensive
frozen kestrel
Easier to take than a catalytic converter
For legal reasons, this is a joke, lads
timber linden
What kind of steam siren did glowworm have? The woop woop one?
Juggalo?
fierce sparrow
runic ermine
Views of the War of 1812 by country:
Canada: The Americans have come to invade our homes, attack our families, and burn our towns, all in an attempt to force us into their republic. We will not be so easily intimidated. Our loyalties forever lay with King and Country! We shall defend ourselves, our families, and the crown from this Yankee invasion. While the main British Army is in Europe, we must make due with what we have. The British regulars, our militas, and our Indigenous allies will step up to the task of defending our land. We will repulse America's invasion. God save the King!
America: The British want to put us under their thumb once again. They've taken our boys away on their ships and forced them to serve in their navy. They supply the tribes weapons so they can launch attacks on our people. We will not tolerate these direct attacks on our sovereignty. If we must wage a Second War of Independence in order to defend our right to freedom, then so be it! We will march on York, we will march on Quebec, we will march on Halifax, and we will never let the Brits suppress our sovereignty!
Britian: Napoleon is really quiet troublesome innit? Wait, you mean the other war?
The point of what I've written above is to show the contrast in view of the War of 1812
rapid cairn
I could be wrong about this, but is Minneapolis' wild hunter style inspired by her irl history getting this improvised fix?
the fact she survived this is incredible
she even had camoflauge to hide herself
rapid junco
tacit sage
I could be wrong about this, but is Minneapolis' wild hunter style inspired by h...
I know her Dullahan skill is based on this, as she lost her “head” in this incident. Unsure if the other skill is though.
subtle prawn
frozen kestrel
Scharnhorst and Gneisenau have the same hull shape, right?
timber linden
Scharnhorst and Gneisenau have the same hull shape, right?
Basically
In both cases
frozen kestrel
Okay, that makes my life easier
means I can just rip Gneisenau's superstructure off of the hull when she gets add to War thunder and I can weld it to Scharnhorst's hull
tacit sage
means I can just rip Gneisenau's superstructure off of the hull when she gets ad...
Bro is Sid from Toy Story 
sullen owl
main frost
when can we get AEGIS ships and Nuclear aircraft carriers in azurlane
cinder escarp
Technically speaking... we already have ships in 70s config
So Nuclear Enterprise would be in time frame I guess
covert fractal
The Black Brunswickers (former name: Brunswick Ducal-Corps)
the Black Brunswickers were a military unit raised by Frederick Williams, Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel in 1809. Frederick was a faithful critic of the presence of Napoleon in Germany, he raised this military unit to fight against the Kingdom of Westphalia, a german client state of the First French Empire.
they were a relatively small army against the Kingdom of Westphalia army and the Grande Armée, with only 2,300 privates and a mixed cavalry regiment of Uhlans and Hussars. they fighted in the Battle of Halberstadt (July 29, 1809), Battle of Ölper (August 1, 1809), Battle of Quatre Bras (June 16, 1815) and Battle of Waterloo (June 18, 1815)
covert fractal
**The Black Brunswickers** (former name: Brunswick Ducal-Corps)
the Black Bruns...
(years active: 1809-1820)
subtle prawn
desert agate
did you actually just post simple 'history' in this channel?
subtle prawn
I am admittedly guilty of doing it in the past
eternal veldt
Would you prefer Infographics Show instead? /s
remote monolith
someone should share blacktails defense here
eternal veldt
https://youtu.be/PYKJ-jWIIFM you called?
remote monolith
thanks now I have haemorrhages
muted dove
sorry if this is a noob question, but which one of these is vichy france (MNF) and which one is free france (FFNF)?
the wikipedia map on both is really confusing
remote monolith
sorry if this is a noob question, but which one of these is vichy france (MNF) a...
Vichy is Zone Libre, Zone Occupie is the part directly administered by Nazi Germany
in 1942 by this point the Free French only holds France's African colonies
muted dove
ohh got it, thanks
runic ermine
sorry if this is a noob question, but which one of these is vichy france (MNF) a...
Also:
-FFNF stands for Free French Naval Forces. This is the English acronym. The French acronym is FNFL which stands for Forces Navales Françaises Libres.
-MNF stands for Marine National Français. This is the French acronym which translates to National French Navy
Or would it be French National Navy?
eternal veldt
Neither, the French naval forces do not not use any prefixes to their ships.
The best you have is FS, which is established in the NATO years, or MN for Marine Nationale.
covert fractal
La Gloire, 1858-1870
La Gloire was the first Ironclad ship. launched in 1859, it was developed after the Crimean War (1853-1856), where the modern granades and Paixhan cannons (explosive shell guns) had an incredible destruction power against the normal wooden ships.
designed by the architect Henri Dupuy de Lôme, it had a 12 cm-thick armor plates and with 43 cm of timber. after testing, it resisted successfully the strongest guns of the time, like the French 50-Pounder and the British 68-Pounder at 25 metres (or 68 ft). its maximum speed was of 13.1 knots, but this might be wrong, due to other sources suggest 11.75 knots. this ship was a big technologic advance in naval-history, quickly, the other european powers started developing their own iroclads, starting a new era in naval-history. La Gloire was finally stricken in 1879 along with its two twin ships (Invincible, Normandie) when France centred themselves on making armored battleships
spring briar
My baby
chilly osprey
runic ermine
Neither, the French naval forces do not not use any prefixes to their ships.
I know I'm talking about the AL prefixes
Or rather, the prefixes that AL uses and are based on real things
covert fractal
Napoleon, 1850 (Battleship)
Napoleon was the first steam battleship of the world, also being the first screw battleship in history. this ship, designed by Henri Dupuy de Lôme, it was going to be originally named “Prince de Joinville”, in honor to François d’Orléans, Prince of Joinville. before the adoption of the screw on battleships, there only exist the paddle wheels, but even them required of money and a large machinery. the screw was previously tested by french engineers in 1840, guiding themselves by the already existing british coastal guards “Blockships”, wich they used screw, but they were just small batteries, not the conventional height of a normal battleship. in 1847, Henri Dupuy recieved the order to start developing the first screw warship ever, finalising in 1850.
during its first mission during the War of Crimea, the performance of Napoleon forced other powers to start also developing their own steam battleships. it was finally stricken in 1876, where better ships taked its place, and in 1886, the French Navy ordered the broke up.
covert fractal
**Napoleon, 1850** (Battleship)
Napoleon was the first steam battleship of the ...
im sorry if yall doesnt understand some parts, im not the best at english
covert fractal
in some days, but 210 years ago, the Waterloo campaign will begin in 15 June
subtle prawn
I was kinda expecting her to be a carbon copy of Scharnhorst and not in her never completed rebuild form
burnt scarab
Yes, the battle that turn the tide into US favor of course Loono. The Japanese Navy lost four carriers and lots of mechanics and their crews...
covert fractal
Battle of Midway, 1942
the Battle of Midway, was one of the most important battles of the Pacific Theater, during the WW II. the battle, between the Japanese Imperial Navy, commanded by Isoroku Yamamoto, and the US Pacific Fleet, under the command of the general Chester W. Nimitz. the Japanese Navy planned the date of the attack some days before, but thanks to the US intelligence works, the US Navy could prevent the attack, ambushing the Japanese Navy before they could reach the Midway Atoll.
the battle is considered the turning point of the Pacific War, the japanese losed 4 fleet carriers, 1 heavy crusier, 248 aircrafts and 3,057 crew members. by the side of the US, they losed 1 fleet carrier, 1 destroyer, 150 aircrafts. this is considered one of the biggest defeats of Japan history and of the WW II, most of the japanese professional pilots, mechanics and officers were killed or got captured, stoping the japanese expansion from the pacific.
i really wish i could say more info, but discord have a word limit
grave ravine
**Battle of Midway, 1942**
the Battle of Midway, was one of the most important ...
Parshall has made the point that Japanese pilot losses at Midway weren't actually that heavy, and that really it was Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz Islands that would be the real bloodbath for Japanese pilots
subtle prawn
They did however lose a lot of ground crews at Midway, no?
covert fractal
Parshall has made the point that Japanese pilot losses at Midway weren't actuall...
yes, you are right. but the reason of those loses was because, as i explained on my previous message, most of the professional pilots were shot down during Midway
grave ravine
yes, you are right. but the reason of those loses was because, as i explained on...
Not most, obviously casualties weren't negligible, but due to the relatively orderly evacuation of the ships, and the fact that only Hiryu ever launched against the USN carriers, most Japanese aircrew survived
From NHHC
remote monolith
It took Japan about two years to recuperate the material losses at Midway, and most of it were immediately lost again by Philippines Sea and Leyte Gulf
narrow rover
**La Gloire, 1858-1870**
La Gloire was the first Ironclad ship. launched in 185...
I like the sail plan
narrow rover
It took Japan about two years to recuperate the material losses at Midway, and m...
Really if Japanese leadership was sane they should have thrown in the towel by Leyte lol
But they weren't sane and probably kept on fighting for WAY longer than they had any right to
mental tapir
It took two atomic bombs + the threat of being spitroasted being invaded from both the north and south for the emperor and enough of the brass to realize that any sort of surrender condition (aside from the last minute keeping the emperor one) wasn't going to be tolerated
cobalt dome
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLeOB_bZlkeZUj_gD_ACWGK6geCl-LMZx
His videos are good but I completely disagree with what he said in the end of his third video, the part where even of America had lose the battle they would won anyway later... yeah later by early 46 mid late of that year even early 47, while the IJN would continue it's rampage across the south west Pacific completely unopposed for another year
cobalt dome
Really if Japanese leadership was sane they should have thrown in the towel by L...
True indeed that way Shinano wouldn't have been sunk and scrapped for it's metal needed post war rebuild
cobalt dome
But they weren't sane and probably kept on fighting for WAY longer than they had...
Because the country and every affair was handle controlled and done by the army like it toom the emperor itself to ste it up and say no it's enough no more war
mental tapir
His videos are good but I completely disagree with what he said in the end of hi...
If he said the US would still win by 45 then yea, but idt there's any scenario where the US was going to lose
narrow rover
Frankly I don't think anyone was in control of Japan at the time let alone anyone in the "army" or the emperor
Japan was a runaway train and every once in a while the crew would gather at the cockpit and confirm yes the train has run over an orphanage but no one could pull the brake lever because it's made of lava
eternal veldt
...Its mostly because any signs of a ceasefire or peace treaty is equivalent to asking your government to be overthrown by a more militaristic one.
Japan had more than enough opportunities to back off from the Pacific War if you look at the flashpoint at Pearl Harbor; with the US already demanding the terms of withdrawing from China and any occupied territories for the unfreezing of Japanese assets
This is not acceptable not to the government but to the public itself - The militaristic government is not a result of a person seeking to usurp control - its an unfettered ultranationalist movement headed by its military officers and had the general public's support
remote monolith
and the only person who could have conceivably control the military tacitly supported them and let them do as they please
eternal veldt
The perceived unfair treatment of the terms of not just WNT, but also LNT and the earlier decisions made on Shangdong are all grievances to the Japanese public - and if they don't get their way..
What are they going to do, assasinate the prime minister?
narrow rover
At the time the US decided to freeze assets the Japanese and US are fully committed to fighting each other
That happened after the fall of France and Japanese seizure of Indochina
eternal veldt
Oh wait, they did exactly that - not once, twice.
narrow rover
Frankly Yamamoto might have made things worse here by pulling off Pearl Harbor
eternal veldt
At the time the US decided to freeze assets the Japanese and US are fully commit...
Japan is determined to fight long before then - and not helped that a treaty that may have happened pertaining to Korea did not happen between the RoC and Japan
narrow rover
The perceived unfair treatment of the terms of not just WNT, but also LNT and th...
Honestly those aren't even issues compared to the great depression
eternal veldt
The Great Depression is as much as a major reason as to the loss of national prestige in these events
The Western powers have repeatedly snubbed Japan in multiple affairs even before Versailles, including the 21 demands to the fledgling RoC government
Even though Japan is a modernized nation under the auspices of the Meiji restoration and defeated a major asian and western power in the first Sino Japanese war and the Russo Japanese war
cobalt dome
If he said the US would still win by 45 then yea, but idt there's any scenario w...
Nha he never said this or any dates of when the US would won after losing at Midway, like losing at Midway means the war drag on past 45 to 46, because when the US could get another chance like that? Of hitting the carrier at their most vulnerable with right conditions and luck too. Never, the win at Midway was a massive gamble to hit the IJN carriers when they are most vulnerable and easy to destroy faster too
narrow rover
I mean yea
Between WW1 and WW2 a lot of government decisions are just baffling
Almost as if everyone is itching for round 2 lol
eternal veldt
Nothing baffling about it
Its just discrimination and countries being defensive of their own interests
remote monolith
well it doesn't help also that the Taisho emperor had...problems
eternal veldt
So there is nothing "nonsensical" about Japan not surrendering in 1944, the dice is already cast well before Pearl Harbor
And as you should be aware, even Hirohito's announcement for a surrender was met with an attempted coup immediately
Now add the Great Depression and a massive earthquake in the 1920s and 1930s and its a perfect recipe for ultranationalist movements
mental tapir
The war dragging past 45 would have been horrible but it'd also have some cool aspects though
Like the F8F Bearcat being able to see service
Along with maybe the later P-51H Mustang and Hawker Typhoon Mk. II
remote monolith
you kinda have to automatically assume humanity didn't invent artificial suns to let the war drag on that long admittedly
eternal veldt
Considering that an estimated 400,000 civilians under Japanese occupation dies every month under Japanese rule
There is nothing cool about dragging it on
mental tapir
Yeah I know
remote monolith
Considering that an estimated 400,000 civilians under Japanese occupation dies e...
and this is outside Japan proper
inside Japan proper an oncoming 1946 famine would have killed far more without any invasions
mental tapir
My own Grandma lived during the Japanese occupation and may not have survived had the war dragged on
eternal veldt
If glassing Japan ensured an end to hostilities without "extremely heavy" casualties, ultimately I personally believe its the right thing to do, at least when it comes to A bombs
narrow rover
I mean I dunno if it's cool
Japan at the time controlled such a large area and at the same time governance was incompetent because lmao lack of resources and add the IJA being the IJA and you have a whole lot of people dying every month, some estimates say one Hiroshima worth of deaths every week or something
eternal veldt
Midway is both a lucky and well planned relief for the allies
But it alone wasn't enough to put Japan out
mental tapir
Midway is both a lucky and well planned relief for the allies
Partly success in American intelligence to lay the trap and partly crazy luck in the Dauntlesses finding the IJN carriers before their planes found the American ones
eternal veldt
inside Japan proper an oncoming 1946 famine would have killed far more without a...
Thats also before accounting for the presumed invasion as Ketsu-Go/Downfall
When I say I want to see anime schoolgirls fighting, I do not mean downfall
narrow rover
If glassing Japan ensured an end to hostilities without "extremely heavy" casual...
If the US was stupid enough to drop two of them on Tokyo or something with the goal of maximum casualties then we would have some criticism, but obviously they did not do that
The nukes were an extremely well planned psychological attack aimed at breaking the deadlock at Tokyo in regards to surrendering, because by mid 1945 the US is reading all diplomatic back and forth and knew exactly what was happening at the conferences
eternal veldt
There is nothing to bomb on Tokyo
narrow rover
There is people
eternal veldt
Operation Meetinghouse flattened most of the houses back in March
Napalm and Curtis Lemay did the funny worse than Dresden
That, and killing the emperor is a 100% guarantee to no peace deal
narrow rover
Dresden ain't that bad in terms of deaths smh
Hamburg did worse, 40,000 deaths
eternal veldt
The only slightly less worse thing to do is glass Kyoto and wipe out the landmarks of Japanese culture
narrow rover
The only slightly less worse thing to do is glass Kyoto and wipe out the landmar...
I mean there was talks of doing that but it seems like the US leadership said no
Although if you simulate the drop on NUKEMAP the Kyoto bombing somehow kills less people, though injuring more potentially
eternal veldt
Dresden ain't that bad in terms of deaths smh
Hamburg did worse, 40,000 deaths
Keep in mind that Meetinghouse is a single sortie - not prolonged bombing as Hamburg
Its not only that, but its not a military signifcant target compared to the other prime targets on the Nuke map
Hiroshima had a garrison, and Nagasaki is closely associated with the Kure Naval Arsenal
Glassing both hampers the war effort and demonstrates the bomb's effectiveness clearly to the Japanese leadership
cobalt dome
Along with maybe the later P-51H Mustang and Hawker Typhoon Mk. II
Alongside seeing USS Midway too in service, USS Enterprise getting even more battle stars, but yeah prolonged war with Japan with our main time line would have been very bad, because kamikaze attacks, blockade wouldn't even work at all
eternal veldt
And just so Japan gets the message, two must be dropped in an approximate timeframe
mental tapir
Actually if the two atomic bombs were meant to convince the Japanese that the Americans had a store of them and could annihilate them at the own leisure, I'm surprised the Japanese didn't try to call their bluff when they saw no third a-bomb on the 12th Aug, after 6th and 9th Aug saw them dropped
Maybe that's why the coup happened lmao
cobalt dome
narrow rover
Probably worth noting Kyoto also has the nuclear laboratory, so if the bomb is dropped as planned there is a chance some nuclear scientist sees the bomb
eternal veldt
Actually if the two atomic bombs were meant to convince the Japanese that the Am...
Possibly, but the US IIRC was ready to get another lobbed by late August
And the production of A bombs would be scaled up IIRC
So yea, turn Japan into Fallout 46, why not
narrow rover
Actually if the two atomic bombs were meant to convince the Japanese that the Am...
I mean things like the Soviet invasion also happened
eternal veldt
Soviet Invasion...
narrow rover
The Japanese don't exactly know what kind of naval assets the Russians are bringing to the table.
eternal veldt
With its piss poor Russian Pacific Fleet
mental tapir
I mean things like the Soviet invasion also happened
Ah yes, the cope that the anti-nuke people relied on 
eternal veldt
Of which there are no cruisers or battleships to dispatch heavy fortifications
I like those odds
The retreat of the Kwantung Army as I recall was orderly
narrow rover
Yea, it had no chance of success
Unless the US just let the Russians take Hokkaido after the surrender declaration or something
But the Japanese don't know they had no chance of success
remote monolith
The retreat of the Kwantung Army as I recall was orderly
they fought fairly good for a ragged force yeah, retreated orderly to prepared redoubts and holding off Soviet advances in prepared defences
eternal veldt
The answer is "The Allies", not a single country, despite what some people love to claim
narrow rover
Yea
The nukes and the surrender thing is just not a good conversation to have because 1) everyone is entrenched in their own opinions 2) everyone is bringing their own nationalisms to the table and 3) no one bothers to read the most recent research
eternal veldt
Japan also won by having an economic miracle and cultural victory, but I digress
narrow rover
Right now whatever academic consensus out there is basically a compromise between the classical take (nukes ended WW2) and Tsuyoshi Hasegawa's revised take (Soviets were the bigger factor)
eternal veldt
I doubt we are ever going to get a consensus on it
remote monolith
Yea
The nukes and the surrender thing is just not a good conversation to have be...
and in regards to point 3 it is still a live debate between historians themselves
narrow rover
Hasegawa on the other hand, had families that died in WW2 fighting the Americans or something so he definitely has an intention to throw shade at the USA
eternal veldt
Just like the perception on the harshness of Versailles
Or, should I say, the "justice" it serves
remote monolith
not helped that Japan is still extremely secretive on who can do research on the inner works of the council (Bix was among the exceptions)
eternal veldt
Well...
Minor issue of blatant revisionism too.
And a little funny shrine that has no funny business.
narrow rover
Yea, you're not waltzing into the imperial palace and taking a look at some old documents in a box somewhere
eternal veldt
Beautiful scenery, eh?
narrow rover
I mean I'm not sure those have anything on the academia because the nukes are a much bigger cultural impact in Japan itself
narrow rover
I doubt we are ever going to get a consensus on it
Nah
Get something like 7 quantum computers, simulate Hirohito, Umezu, Yonai and the likes, and run them through several surrender scenarios
So wait another 100 years or so
eternal veldt
It will affect the declassification of materiel being accessible to researchers imo.
Surely you dont want a researcher who is going through Hirohito's files on surrendering and suddenly stumbling upon an imperial order to host yet another 100-men-beheading competition?
remote monolith
not helped that Japan is still extremely secretive on who can do research on the...
and even then Bix himself already said he mostly relied on secondary sources, primary sources are beyond his reach
there was said to be a preserved Hirohito diary for example
nope, he can't get it
narrow rover
Surely you dont want a researcher who is going through Hirohito's files on surre...
Imperial family itself is somewhat anti revisionism for some reason tbh
Also a part of me thinks all the documents in regards to war crimes were burned already
eternal veldt
I think certain neighbours would be writing some very strongly worded statements if they did not otherwise.
remote monolith
not all, Bix does confirm the Imperial Household has a good number of surviving war records
they're just sealed beyond anyone to see
narrow rover
I find it really funny that Japan and Taiwan gets along quite well despite them hosting the world's biggest no holds barred slugfest in human history for the better part of 12 years lol
eternal veldt
Also a part of me thinks all the documents in regards to war crimes were burned ...
Im not inclined to think so, because all it takes is a man hiding his documents in his attic to preserve them
remote monolith
especially anything regarding Hirohito as a person and his concrete opinions about the war was absolutely off-limits
eternal veldt
"Shinano's plans were destroyed"
Shizuo Fukui hiding 10,000 documents in his attic:
eternal veldt
especially anything regarding Hirohito as a person and his concrete opinions abo...
I think this is the major reason, yea, the emperor is sill highly revered.
Hirohito himself was acquitted by McCunter as I recall?
narrow rover
Frankly, hirohito himself probably would have just told you if you were ballsy enough to ask lol
Just... no one bothered
remote monolith
he was yes
remote monolith
Frankly, hirohito himself probably would have just told you if you were ballsy e...
the people around him would never let it happen I'll be honest
narrow rover
Hirohito himself was acquitted by McCunter as I recall?
Yea but recent scholarship puts the "I saves hirohito" credit on someone else
maiden citrus
the stupid enabling the evil, a sorry sight in general
remote monolith
there's good ground for debate that much of the Japanese leadership tried their best to shift blame from Hirohito to others, even to themselves, in order to preserve his reputation
narrow rover
Well yea Mitsumasa Yonai essentially risked getting tried
Even though he himself had no reason to do so
remote monolith
pragmatically no, but religiously Hirohito was still the descendant of Amaterasu and a pillar of Shintoism
narrow rover
Frankly Yonai should get the "I saved Hirohito" credit more than anyone else lol
remote monolith
like, as much as it sounds ridiculous, I can understand that people would risk their own lives and career trying to help and save the official living god of the national religion and remove any wrongdoings from him
narrow rover
I usually agree with the US occupation aside from maybe we should have put prince Asaka in jail for fucking up in China + put someone involved in human experiments in jail for that
eternal veldt
Not going to happen with human experiments
Unit 731's results and expertise, as inhumane as it is, was seen too invaluable on biological research and IIRC helped with developing CBRN protection
maiden citrus
well more they got immunity for handing over all their research
but pretty much all the research was useless torture porn
eternal veldt
Ah, I see
remote monolith
ultimately the basic thing that made their research worthless is that they did not follow any sorts of ethical guidelines
eternal veldt
Mmmm yes
Put this guy in the freezing cold, see how long until frostbite takes his arm off
Nicest Japanese officer
narrow rover
"People die when killed"
-Shiro Ishii
Mind you the US did go forwards with the effort to put the Kyushu university cannibalism incident in jail + put guys like Joseph Mengele in jail so I don't think it was inevitable
remote monolith
but I think why Unit 731 is still a mystery is cause again, a lot of their records were destroyes and sealed off even to historians
its not like Mengele where we have a good insight to what he did and why its bloody bullshit
narrow rover
Kinda wish they released all the data because bruh cmon we already know unethical experiments were done there it's going to be nothing more than just confirmation
maiden citrus
yeap
"if you pardon us we will hand over all our research!"
"hm, alright
wait, this is all useless torture bs"
"no takebacksies!"
narrow rover
Also a lot of their methods leaked into the general Japanese medical community and there were... several... very surgical mass murderers in postwar Japan
And just look at the sheer number of ethics violations in postwar Japanese medicine
Including the "blue boy incident" which I CANNOT detail here
mental tapir
"if you pardon us we will hand over all our research!"
"hm, alright
wait, this ...
"Well, at least we now know that the average human body is 70% water!" 💀
narrow rover
That one apparently came from drying a person
I know human experiments are done all the time in these totalitarian states heck even Sadam Hussains Iraq did some, but good lord are some people naturally born with poor sense of morality because it takes a whole new level of fucked up to come up with shit like this
grave ravine
His videos are good but I completely disagree with what he said in the end of hi...
I mean fundamentally the result of Midway doesn't really change things like the efficacy of the submarine campaign in 1944 or the development of the atomic bomb, and even with a catastrophic loss at Midway the USN would still have a massive advantage in carriers by 1944, Parshall had done an interesting analysis of carrier fleet sizes if Midway had gone poorly http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm
The war lasting into early 1946 is reasonably likely, but there's basically zero way it would last into 1947
mental tapir
So yea, turn Japan into Fallout 46, why not
That does make me wonder how many nukes the US would drop on Japan if they still hadn't surrendered by the time Operation Downfall was supposed to kick off; like maybe they'd cancel it not because the Japanese would inflict too many Allied casualties, but instead because most of Japan would already have been an irradiated wasteland that would give Allied soldiers radiation poisoning
grave ravine
That does make me wonder how many nukes the US would drop on Japan if they still...
Production rate of 3-5 a month
remote monolith
Operation Downfall itself entailed dropping about 7 nukes on the beaches to soften the defences
maiden citrus
these also didn't have much lasting radiation effect, hence why the areas that did get nuked are just fine
mental tapir
Right, they were air-burst and non-salted nukes
frozen kestrel
Quick question.
These little shits
do they count as an open or an enclosed gun mount? Because sure, there's some shielding, but then literally the entire backside is open
chilly osprey
Open, shielded pedestal mount
frozen kestrel
aight, thanks
cobalt dome
A Montana-class battleship but heavier and slower, how to become an even easier target to hit for 250 planes
cobalt dome
narrow rover
That does make me wonder how many nukes the US would drop on Japan if they still...
I mean I dunno how exactly the Japanese are supposed to shrug off even the nukes
As much as people talk a lot about the coup, it was probably the 2nd worst coup in Japanese history and had approximately zero chance of success
...It has been theorized Korechika Anami was behind the coup
Umezu was also one of the "we should just die" group
So if those two are more batshit insane, or if the "let's give up" group including Yonai was less decisive... but then again these people are important enough that just making them different people are going to have a lot of other repercussions on the war
covert fractal
Sailors of The Imperial Guard, 1804-1815 (French: Marins de La Garde Impériale)
the Sailors of The Imperial Guard were a naval and line infantry units within the First French Empire. part of the Old Guard and the Imperial Guard, they were elite units that serve both in naval battles and in ground line battles.
formed after the Napoleon coronation on 1804, their old name was Consular Guards Marine battalion, they did consist of 820 officers and 4 companies. after the Empire declaration, Napoleon integrated the Consular Marines into the recently formed Imperial Guard into 5 crews and 818, each one commanded by a Capitain de frégate (high rank navy officers withing the French navy) or by a Capitain de veisseau.
they did serve in campaigns like the Prussian campaign, Battle of Ulm, Battle of Austerlitz, Battle of Eylau, Battle of Friedland, the Peninsular War and Napoleon Invasion to Russia. following the French Invasion to Russia, there were 1,136 officers and 8 companies, after the French retreat from Russia, only 86 officers were alive when Napoleon was only crossing Germany. when the Grande Armée settled in Leipzig, they did reorganised and fighted as part of the Young Guard. during the Defence of Paris, in 1814, they did took a crucial role during the battle. the unit after the Napoleon exhile to Elba, they enter into a strange limbo where they stopped serving. it wasnt until the Hundred days when Napoleon returned from Elba, and after the second proclamation, they were reorganised into one crew of 150 privates, wich they fought in Ligny and then in Waterloo. after the second defeat of Napoleon, they were finally disbanded on 15 August of 1815.
spring briar
💯
frozen kestrel
Made the mistake of downloading Bismarck's War Thunder model and oh boy where do I even fucking begin.
Funnel shroud is abnormally tall, and it's really obvious.
Those 105mm mounts are wrong, and the 15cm mounts look... weird...
At least they remembered that a pair of searchlights went here cough cough wargaming
frozen kestrel
Those 105mm mounts are wrong, and the 15cm mounts look... weird...
It's really fucking funny though, since Scharnhorst (and Gneisenau) have the same 105 mounts that went on Bismarck's forward section. All they had to do was rip one of them off of Scharnhorst, change the texture and copy paste it four times
I only hope that this isn't Bismarck's finalized model, since there's both errors and a multitude of missing bits and bobs
narrow rover
Of all ships they made wrong
Fucking BISMARCK
The single MOST documented battleship
💀
cobalt dome
spring briar
The single MOST documented battleship
It’s not
alpine onyx
Those 105mm mounts are wrong, and the 15cm mounts look... weird...
The boxes on top are historical
frozen kestrel
Oh no, the boxes I'm okay with. The guns just look a little... anemic
narrow rover
It’s not
I honestly can't think of a BB that's had more stuff written about
I mean I guess something like Warspite?
frozen kestrel
The missing blast bags don't really help, but I'm not sure if those were even present when Bismarck left Norway
alpine onyx
The thing with those is that they could be an on and off thing, and could be added or removed while underway
At least for the Scharnhorst sisters that was reported
woeful heath
Question: isn't the IJN's Type 1941A CA (Unzen/Zao but WoWS is the fake one) supposedly an enlarged Ibuki with Triple-turrets instead of double-turrets?
grave ravine
Question: isn't the IJN's Type 1941A CA (Unzen/Zao but WoWS is the fake one) sup...
So the design of Unzen/Zao is supposed to reflect the design of a new Type A cruiser for the Circle 6 plan
Firstly it needs to be stated, if a detail design was ever actually prepared for Circle 6 (which it quite possibly wasn't), nothing about it survives
but there is some indication that the IJN might have been interested in triple turrets around the time
Both Zao and Unzen are based off of a postwar magazine article which is just mostly nonsense
But the magazine article claims to be making an enlarged Ibuki with triples, and then doesn't show that at all so 
It's entirely paper either way
maiden citrus
I honestly can't think of a BB that's had more stuff written about
US ships are very well documented, plus you can kinda just go and see examples of most in person
woeful heath
Firstly it needs to be stated, if a detail design was ever actually prepared for...
Yeah, they burned all of the documents.
But the concept seems kinda sound, that it's an enlarged Ibuki. or well the most likeliest o of the design being based of
woeful heath
Yeah, they burned all of the documents.
But the concept seems kinda sound, that...
||Funnily enough, I got to know this is due of Roblox WoWS. Apparently, someone has been keen to removing a Zao lookalike T10 IJN Cruiser with a Super-Myoko (Myoko Preliminary with triple turrets)||
warm ferry
I honestly can't think of a BB that's had more stuff written about
Theres museum ships that one can actually go see in person still?
narrow rover
Theres museum ships that one can actually go see in person still?
...aside from the ones that still exist of course
chilly osprey
Yeah, they burned all of the documents.
But the concept seems kinda sound, that...
It's also a case of;
'just because a program called for a cruiser of a certain type to be built, doesn't meant anyone ever even set specifications for the ship in the first place'
There's a whole process from a navy actually thinking it wants to develop a design to actually getting a design in a place where the contracted yard can make the detailed design and blueprints to build the thing.
earnest plinth
Not sure if this can go here
covert fractal
why not
eternal veldt
Recent digging by Tzoli has found a cruiser designated as "C-43", which may be related to the Type 1940/1941 cruiser with 8 to be built. Thats about as much information we have on the ship, alongside "C-40", a Circle 4 Modified Tone class cruiser.
I don't think the triple turret was ever set in stone, as we don't even have the displacement of the ship - if it was ever designed, as C-43's remark was simply "planned ship".
The problem with being a Myoukou preliminary is that the armour belt is likely going to be a stinky 102mm/76mm - suboptimal unless simply gimped up.
eternal veldt
US ships are very well documented, plus you can kinda just go and see examples o...
About that...
Navsource has been down for a week.
No more easily accessible photos.
woeful heath
The problem with being a Myoukou preliminary is that the armour belt is likely g...
They're willing to gimp the armour a bit (to be on par with fake in-game Unzen/Zao of 127 mm of armor) and modify torpedo launchers so it can be a replacement to the Fake Unzen/Zao (They used the name Senjo as was mentioned somewhere)
They mentioned it'll be based on this Preliminary design with some modification to fit the specifications of a T10 IJN Cruiser
And somewhere putting 4x4 610 mm torps
Oh and doesn't anyone know what this design is based on?
They've mentioned about Winston Churchill
They mentioned that it's from Tzoli
eternal veldt
They're willing to gimp the armour a bit (to be on par with fake in-game Unzen/Z...
Then its just about on fakium territory as Unzen, just less violations in the practical arrangement field
See also: Cerberus and the Lillicrap 12x203 London Preliminary
That one you posted is likely the large cruiser designs by W.G. John, after Churchill asked for large cruiser designs
woeful heath
That one you posted is likely the large cruiser designs by W.G. John, after Chur...
I found them, thanks
woeful heath
I found them, thanks
||They've named the Quadruple Turret design 'Plymouth'||
eternal veldt
No.
Plymouth is the original design for allowing the Towns to grow beyond the 8k ton design to a 10k ton design.
woeful heath
Then its just about on fakium territory as Unzen, just less violations in the pr...
Better than what they did with Sommers
eternal veldt
This included quadruple turrets, which could not be manufactured in time
So instead, the tonnage was spent on protection instead, including the lengthening of the hull
woeful heath
Plymouth is the original design for allowing the Towns to grow beyond the 8k ton...
That they did know.
However, it's more or less a joke name. Because funny Quad turrets
eternal veldt
Which, while personally thinking they look hideous, it seemed to at least delay Edinburgh's sinking.
I prefer calling Plymouth Obese Belfast.
Belfat, if you will.
woeful heath
Belfat, if you will.
That fits lmao
eternal veldt
I should note that raked funnels are unlikely to be used
The designers liked their appearance, but they do not provide actual benefits and more importantly, are a telltale sign of the ship's heading when it appears on the enemy's optics
Hence why ships like Bellona, Fijis, and Amphions had straight funnels
The 15.5k ton sketch used straight funnels
woeful heath
The designers liked their appearance, but they do not provide actual benefits an...
That's interesting, thanks
cobalt dome
June 7 7:00 am
cobalt dome
Also I did a mistake, that this is the 83th anniversary of the Battle of Midway along D-Day yesterday
covert fractal
today, after the Battle of Midway, the USS Yorktwon sink at 7 June of 1942, 07:01.
covert fractal
today, after the Battle of Midway, the USS Yorktwon sink at 7 June of 1942, 07:0...
first image: USS Yorktown prepares to get under way from the Naval Air Station North Island, San Diego.
second image: USS Yorktown in July 1937.
third image: USS Yorktown after being reached by Japanese dive bombers in Midway
fourth image: USS Yorktown rolled upside down and slowly sinking.
runic ermine
Did the US navy do well or poorly during the War of 1812?
Also how did it's performance compare to the Provincial Marine (Canada's navy before it was called the Royal Canadian Navy) and the Royal Navy?
covert fractal
Did the US navy do well or poorly during the War of 1812?
they did pretty good, like winning against HMS Guerriere (first image), HMS Cyane and HMS Levant (second image) and HMS Peacock (third image). compared to the US Navy, the Royal Navy did lose many more of ships, crewmen, weapons, etc.
(capture of the HMS Guerriere, HMS Cyane and HMS Levant are thanks to the USS Constitution)
eternal veldt
These victories are insufficient in challenging the dominance of the Royal Navy in that war.
Keep in mind that the War of 1812 was partially started because of the Chesapeake-Leopard affair, and that quite a number of ships such as President are forced into fleet in beings - and with stronger ships deployed, the fledgling USN would still be struggling.
foggy warren
russian baltic fleet in 1870. Does anyone have similar ship profile images of russian screw frigates from 1856-1870?
zealous vine
Does anyone have any comprehensive blueprint or design archive for British torpedo craft?
timber linden
Shenandoah, one of the three confederate ships worth anything during the war.
frozen kestrel
Of all ships they made wrong
Fucking BISMARCK
aaaand this is where the fun begins
already an improvement
frozen kestrel
the more i look at gaijin's bismarck, the more i feel an unspeakable rage building within me
junior trench
Fun fact: almost every plane in War Thunder that suffers from adverse yaw and rudder stiffening is from the US, because the US are the only ones who bothered to write about it for each and every plane.
burnt scarab
The US did lose 1 carrier Alexandru. The IJN lost 4 of the 6 carrier. I kind of miss the D-Day convo though. Oh well. At least 12th June will be Carentan
I got to know Carentan through chruch message by a Rev years ago. He shared about the battle of Carentan and mention Lieutenant Richard Winters everyone
narrow rover
the more i look at gaijin's bismarck, the more i feel an unspeakable rage buildi...
Like just how many Bismarck models are out there lol
They fucked up the one battleship you CANNOT fuck up
burnt scarab
You like Armchair Historian DearUncleHermit ?
narrow rover
Who is that...?
runic ermine
Who is that...?
Legendary history YouTuber
spring briar
Legendary 
frozen kestrel
Like just how many Bismarck models are out there lol
They fucked up the one batt...
You wanna know what's really fucking funny about this, too? It is so fucking EASY to access the blueprints
narrow rover
Yea
There are a lot of Bismarck prints and line art and whatnot out there because Bisko is a popular warship
frozen kestrel
No, I mean the actual blueprints
I have them
the screenshot's fucked because of the paper's age, but you get the idea
alpine onyx
Funny that you send that one, since it's very obviously not the final version
Though the turbo electric plant is a sight to behold
narrow burrow
Does anyone have any comprehensive blueprint or design archive for British torpe...
maiden citrus
You wanna know what's really fucking funny about this, too? It is so fucking EAS...
that implies they are trying -gives shimikaze the wrong main gun count- whoops!
runic ermine
dude got a lot more wrong than right if I'm being honest
Im exaggerating
zealous vine
https://prints.rmg.co.uk/collections/ship-plans?srsltid=AfmBOoqGYQf2Sdx2O04Iv9Q-...
Tyty!!!
mental tapir
junior trench
that implies they are trying -gives shimikaze the wrong main gun count- whoops!
there's literally photos of her from the battle she got sunk at and her wreck
gaijin believe some shitbox claims and sources from the ru forum
supple sandal
desert agate
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407989900881952771/1004797490702340177/un...
Are the Vietnamese Mig-15s in the room with us now?
cobalt dome
cobalt dome
cobalt dome
I wonder if she will be ever recovered and scrapped
spring briar
@thorny scarab
cobalt dome
cobalt dome
<@258254732823494657>
What did I do? Besides posting a video about history of ships
spring briar
What did I do? Besides posting a video about history of ships
that was to warn pin about a scammer that posted in here
rapid cairn
One of the best niche things I've seen in naval related history:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/s/6XdUEY94Vn
She's lit up like a party girl
It's like secretly finding pics of her drunk in college
subtle prawn
cobalt dome
that was to warn pin about a scammer that posted in here
Oh ohhh oke got it
spring briar
narrow burrow
Some lady in my office saying stuff about her dad or grandad having a us destroyer named after him. This is Oklahoma anyone want to help me figure it out so I don’t have to go ask them
junior trench
do you have any idea how little that narrows things down
spring briar
we're gonna need a last name
tacit sage
What do we even call this?
Asperger's
The comments to the posts sort of sum it up fairly well
narrow burrow
Without asking her I think it’s the USS Delbert D. Black
spring briar
What do we even call this?
God forbid having an interest in something
yes Vichy France is weird and iffy but eh
runic ermine
God forbid having an interest in something
I just have never seen a Vichyboo before
It's like discovering a new species
subtle prawn
runic ermine
https://www.twz.com/air/e-2-hawkeye-replaces-usaf-e-3-sentry-e-7-cancelled-in-ne...
First the M10 and now this
subtle prawn
At least the E-7 still has operators abroad unlike the M10
subtle prawn
junior trench
lol, was literally in the middle of checking the member list to see who's on
frozen kestrel
So, ya'll remember how I've been absolutely ripping Gaijin's Bismarck to shreds? Well, I found something that's actually an improvement
Compare the deck textures to older models like Scharnhorst and Prinz Eugen, and there's significant improvement. You can actually tell individual planks apart. Whereas on older models the deck just looks like painted plywood. Gaijin's at least learned something.
Doesn't mean I'm gonna stop bullying Gaijin for this major of a fuckup though
narrow rover
God forbid having an interest in something
I mean the process of how that exactly happened is a fascinating thing ngl
Especially Petain, he's an interesting figure
narrow rover
Compare the deck textures to older models like Scharnhorst and Prinz Eugen, and ...
Scharnhorsts deck looks like someone plastered poop all over it 😭
runic ermine
I mean the process of how that exactly happened is a fascinating thing ngl
That's what I'm wondering
subtle prawn
warm ferry
What do we even call this?
I dont have aspergers, but with adhd and asd. Yes stuff like that is how i work.
warm ferry
I mean the process of how that exactly happened is a fascinating thing ngl
Read stuff on the inernet nowadays and something is almost bound to stick eventually.
runic ermine
Read stuff on the inernet nowadays and something is almost bound to stick eventu...
Even if it isn't true
zealous vine
At what point did guns start to outrange stereoscopic rangefinders
As in, I can shoot further than I can practically ascertain where my shots land, without using radar
desert agate
Around 1917 when aircraft first started to appear on warships
Here’s an interesting account of the earliest trials of shipboard aircraft in the Grand Fleet
exotic timber
Hmm?
zealous vine
Here’s an interesting account of the earliest trials of shipboard aircraft in th...
Ty!
supple sandal
I think it is interesting that most army can wage guerillas war
But the moment they organized themselves into a conventional army they also get beat by guerillas
It not like they forgot about guerillas warfare
It just guerillas warfare is just so god damn effective
warm ferry
Even if it isn't true
Yes
tacit sage
It just guerillas warfare is just so god damn effective
It is, for a short time. The Seminole Wars are proof of that. Guerilla Warfare only works as long as your opponent is unprepared.
subtle prawn
tribal mortar
most underrated ship of all time
The Fletcher class
spring briar
The Fletchers are pretty highly rated so no
tribal mortar
never seen one person talking about them
spring briar
Yeah but there’s not much talking in this history channel anyways
tribal mortar
most underrated ship of all time
The Fletcher class
it might be the kingfisher class sloop
runic ermine
It just guerillas warfare is just so god damn effective
Even if the guerillas are poorly trained and take high casualties
supple sandal
But it is a pain in the ass
Even Vietnam can't really shut down the Khmer rouge
(I know they can't attack Thailand yes)
runic ermine
But it is a pain in the ass
Yes
supple sandal
So how to stop
supple sandal
Is kord cheaper than the browning
junior trench
who knows
the ruble is funny money
but Kord is obectively shit at doing HMG things
supple sandal
Hipiho hopity, quad mount dshk for AA duty
Personally I would rather have dual mount 23mm on the back of a pick up
autumn sorrel
never seen one person talking about them <:MutsukiHyperStare:588629678017871872>
I mean, what there to talk about? Literally a combination of great firepower pack into a ww2 Destroyer tonnage, great utility for multiple missions with its sonar, AA and range, easy to mass produce and maintain. Frankly we don't talk about it much bc there aren't really any major flaw we can point out for a discussion.
autumn sorrel
Is this aircraft real
Huh, what this from?
autumn sorrel
It just guerillas warfare is just so god damn effective
It is not that guerilla warfare is that effective, problem is that it is very difficult to pacify the population.
autumn sorrel
but Kord is obectively shit at doing HMG things
Nah, I like Kord with bipod and their insane pitch about having a support HMG for each platoon using Kord.
junior trench
The Kord's design objectively sucks for that
It's a lightweight pencil barrel .50 cal HMG
Utterly contradictory things
But fully in line with the fuck up that is the PKP I guess
autumn sorrel
The Kord's design objectively sucks for that
Tbf, it at least tried. Either Kord or that super light weight Chinese HMG
autumn sorrel
But fully in line with the fuck up that is the PKP I guess
What's wrong with PKP?
junior trench
No interchangeable barrel GPMG designed for maximum lightness including using a thin walled barrel
According to the manufacturer, the PKP Pecheneg can fire 600 rounds in rapid fire scenarios without damaging the barrel. When conducting a long firefight, it can safely fire up to 1000 rounds of ammunition per hour without degrading the combat characteristics and reducing the life of the barrel.
1000 rds/hr is approximately equivalent to 16 rds/min
autumn sorrel
No interchangeable barrel GPMG designed for maximum lightness including using a ...
Isn't the whole interchangeable barrel is a nice feature but you don't really reach that level unless under extensive sustaining fire?
junior trench
It's a GPMG 4head
autumn sorrel
Yeah but all machine gunner are trained to fire burst
junior trench
Maybe read
autumn sorrel
Yeah, I know it is straight from wiki
junior trench
Ok, now try to comprehend
It's a machine gun. With a sustained rate of fire of 16 rds/min.
An M16 has a sustained rate of fire of 15 rds/min.
Now apply a little effort into figuring out why this is embarrassingly bad for a GPMG.
autumn sorrel
It's a machine gun. With a sustained rate of fire of 16 rds/min.
An M16 has a s...
Are you sure? The pratical sustain fire rate is 166rd/min
You are using the information from wikipedia where even in the talk section of the page that they are disagreeing with the source
Also, 15rds/min? What?
Dude, I pretty sure it is much higher than that
junior trench
Did you actually read the talk page or are you just hoping it agrees with you
Because that discussion settled on 1000 rds/hour as well
autumn sorrel
I can't read it all but how can you say that a machine gun having a sustain fire rate of 16rds/min with a straight face?
junior trench
Because the Russian sources say 1000 rounds an hour. Which if you do a little elementary school math
Works out to ~16 rds/min
Mind-blowing, I know
But entirely inline with the design choices of the PKP
Which prioritize lightness over actually doing the job of a machine gun
Which is the same problem as the Kord and its ilk
autumn sorrel
Because the Russian sources say 1000 rounds an hour. Which if you do a little el...
I am trying to find that 1000rds/hr source and I am coming up with nothing but that wiki page
junior trench
And just to provide a point of reference I might as well point out that the M240 has a sustained rate of fire of 100 rds/min.
Because it doesn't use a pencil barrel and make every sacrifice possible in the name of lightness.
https://modernfirearms.net/ru/pulemety/rossija-pulemety/pecheneg/
При ведении длительного боя пулемет может выстреливать до 1000 патронов в час без ухудшения боевых характеристик и уменьшения ресурса ствола
TL: During prolonged combat, the machine gun can fire up to 1,000 rounds per hour without deteriorating combat performance or reducing the barrel's service life
Womp womp
cinder escarp
Not directly comparable though. US army sustained rates include barrel swaps.
supple sandal
Huh, what this from?
Marginal Operation
autumn sorrel
https://modernfirearms.net/ru/pulemety/rossija-pulemety/pecheneg/
> При ведении ...
Ok, it is semantic on my part but what the different between Practical fire rate and sustained fire rate?
junior trench
Not directly comparable though. US army sustained rates include barrel swaps.
M27 is rated for 36 rds/min, so whatever.
junior trench
Ok, it is semantic on my part but what the different between Practical fire rate...
Practical is usually how fast you can fire while still actually having aimed fire.
Sustained is how fast you can fire without causing enough heat buildup in a sustained engagement to cause damage to the weapon.
supple sandal
https://modernfirearms.net/ru/pulemety/rossija-pulemety/pecheneg/
> При ведении ...
"Fire up to 1000 rph with deteriorating combat performance..."
That doesn't have anything to do with fire rate
junior trench
Read and comprehend
supple sandal
No thanks, I don't speak vodka rune
junior trench
If you can afford to fire 1000 rounds an hours how many rounds per minute does that translate to?
supple sandal
🤦♂️
junior trench
Maybe if you read you'd realize this isn't about cyclic rates of fire
supple sandal
I thought you guys are talking about that
autumn sorrel
Oh, it is from Max Popenker. I supposed I will accept this until there is another source show up.
supple sandal
Because realistically no one gonna fucking count enough 1000 rounds when they are in actual combat
cinder escarp
M27 is rated for 36 rds/min, so whatever.
IAR does benefit cooling wise from having to reload all the damn time.
supple sandal
People just gonna let it rip
cinder escarp
you get to reload every 30 rounds, even at the slow 'sustained' burst firing rates you're reloading every minute
autumn sorrel
Let me be clear, I am still very much not convince about the sustained fire rate and only article that talk about it is from Popenker. He is a respected firearms historian so I will kinda accept his words on the topic for now.
supple sandal
Hmm
supple sandal
never seen one person talking about them <:MutsukiHyperStare:588629678017871872>
Because it is without flaws
Is sustained rate of fire really that important
spring briar
Yes
autumn sorrel
Can't find manual on PKP, only PKM
And the info might not apply to PKP due different in barrel design.
It doesn't make sense, the PKM sustained fire rate is 100rds/min. PKP barrel design is supposed to improve upon it. 16rds/min sound really... weird?
cinder escarp
Pay attention to "an hour"
PKP cannot change its barrel
So for an hour it's all about managing barrel heat on your one barrel
For say 10 minutes of sustained fire? PKP beats PKM every time.
spring briar
It doesn't make sense, the PKM sustained fire rate is 100rds/min. PKP barrel des...
If you fire 100rds/min out of most things continuously your barrel is going to droop and blow eventually
What matters here is having the same amount of heat added every round be dissipated as well
the rof that this happens at is that sustained rof
cinder escarp
for guns with quick-swap barrel it's a bit more complex calculating, because if you have an arbitrarily large supply of spare barrels, you can just keep cranking out rounds with barrel swaps
a MAG can fire at 550rpm forever, so long as you have idk 50 barrels set aside to cycle through
So you it's a factor of: how long does it take to swap barrel, how many spares do you have, and how long does a heated barrel take to cool back down when swapped off
spring briar
Which is why I don’t really consider that sustained
Aint nobody got that many barrels
cinder escarp
ofc not, which is why rapid and sustained rates are much lower
you only have one or two spares, and you have to balance your firing with those cooling
spring briar
Reloads also factor in to the sustained rof
They lower it slightly but its usually negligible
It really is mostly about that point where you can keep running the gun at the same high temperature without it fluctuating
cinder escarp
You'll also note that if you demand real sustained fire, there's no substitute for liquid / evaporative / forced-air (as in blower motor) cooling.
Aircooling can only do so much
spring briar
Forced Convection is awesome.
Convection in general
Which is why you have to make sure to have a nicely designed handguard over the portions of your gun that require it
Otherwise you’re trapping heat
Perry’s chemical engineering handbook has a nice section about it
autumn sorrel
Marginal Operation
I gave it a chance, like I really did. But it is really ass.
supple sandal
it is better than most slop
but the radio emission
yyyea no
need to suspend my disbelief
versed tree
versed tree
https://modernfirearms.net/ru/pulemety/rossija-pulemety/pecheneg/
> При ведении ...
Is this the new russian lmg
runic ermine
https://modernfirearms.net/ru/pulemety/rossija-pulemety/pecheneg/
> При ведении ...
What is this?
runic ermine
yes Vichy France is weird and iffy but eh
I will say, Phily P's flag is cool and the Milice had drip
But still, new species of boo discovered
autumn sorrel
need to suspend my disbelief
Problem for me is that the gear in most case is either absent or wrong. Like, dude draw a highly detailed customized AR but not draw the rig for the character?!!! That and the kids as well, like the author trying to use child soldier, ok but it is so stupid that any PMC worth their salt will tell you why it is a bade idea from practical point of view. Plus it is just generic 2010s Japanese author trend of drawing military shit bc they saw stuff from Iraq or hear about stuff like Blackwater. Honestly, Front Mission is much better.
supple sandal
Take it this way
Most people know how a gun look
But they don't exactly know how a full gear look
It is less a military story and more of social commentary story
Also the fucking Chinese army keep using US vehicles
Also a single signal jammer will throw his whole army into disarray
autumn sorrel
Also a single signal jammer will throw his whole army into disarray
True, unless it is some Chinese units under corrupted general command.
Frankly, if it was US Army or any other PMC he come up against then EW is a guarantee
supple sandal
The manga isn't for military nerds
It is for people that doesn't know what chaff and flare are
Trust me, those exist
autumn sorrel
Yeah, if someone somehow think battlefield control is like a video game then they are in for a rude awakening.
Best game that come close to it is Radio commander
autumn sorrel
You at best can only approve of fire mission or ordering additional assets or retreating. Micromanage unit on the battlefield even with modern Sat surveillance tech is not advisable.
supple sandal
Honestly the manga have even less fog than video game
autumn sorrel
Best method is still to rely on on the ground CO and NCO to perform their own maneuvers.
supple sandal
"you don't have enough hardware to command and control the entire regiment, here is a solution..."
"cloud computing, using data center in Japan while fighting a war in Myanmar".....
autumn sorrel
That and no way that dude is not overload with queries and messages from the men on the ground asking for assistance.
supple sandal
🤦♂️🤦♂️
autumn sorrel
"cloud computing, using data center in Japan while fighting a war in Myanmar"......
Yeah, dude never heard about the concept of C3 or the gear for it
supple sandal
Unless his drill sergeant somehow trained enough frontline officers from teenagers for the entire regiment
A single sergeant
ONE
For the majority of the story
autumn sorrel
A single sergeant
For entire platoon
supple sandal
At the end of the story he have 3000 child soldiers
autumn sorrel
At the end of the story he have 3000 child soldiers
Yeah, he is going to the Hague
supple sandal
Without additional officers....
autumn sorrel
Kony level of Child soldier bs
Like, ain’t no way Interpol or CIA don’t see some guy getting into Thailand with 3k child soldiers and not thinking “The Fuck?!!!”
It is like Black Lagoon but even less believable.
autumn sorrel
But he leave with 3k and funds from NGO
Oh, he is definitely under CIA surveillance then
supple sandal
More like funded by them
autumn sorrel
Hell, might as well on their payroll
supple sandal
The original PMC he worked for is American
Surely it can't be CIA in disguise
Wink wink
autumn sorrel
It is funny, it is implied that it is either Afghan or near Afghan country. So dude is just another warlord that going from fighting other local warlord to about to clash with Taliban
supple sandal
Anyway, I said it is more social commentary than military
supple sandal
It is funny, it is implied that it is either Afghan or near Afghan country. So d...
Not exactly warlord, bodyguard
autumn sorrel
Still, using mass conscript child soldier have so many draw back
You don’t have a clear command structure for once. Any officer that you can poach to command them also need to be vet carefully to avoid predators and such.
Also, you are not working with much here, professional and career officer won’t go near anything remote mentioned child soldiers and you basically having a group of teenagers about to hit puberty holding guns.
Not a great combination and any realistic result going to be nasty.
supple sandal
We have a history of using kids for espionage, scouting, ect...
Mostly supporting or like spying, assassinating
Rarely frontline combat
autumn sorrel
We have a history of using kids for espionage, scouting, ect...
Mostly support...
Yeah and PAVN did their best to scrub all that shit away from any official history. Vietcong used child suicide bomber at times but you won’t see any of it mention anywhere near Museum.
supple sandal
Best we have left is a single book
Honestly I rarely heard about PTSD with Vietnamese soldiers
supple sandal
Yeah and PAVN did their best to scrub all that shit away from any official histo...
Stupid Japanese banzai anti tank stick
How effective these things really are
autumn sorrel
How effective these things really are
Good enough when you literally have nothing vs M5 Stuart or M24 Chaffee
supple sandal
Fire bomb sound like a really really better option
autumn sorrel
Plus it was urban combat, battle happen in closer range, enough for suicide attacker to get close
autumn sorrel
Fire bomb sound like a really really better option
I mean, they also use molotov cocktail
supple sandal
The thing about that manga above