history

[narrow rover]

I'm convinced warfare is not being about better than your enemy but being less stupid most of the time lol

[desert agate]

Schweinfurt was just a consequence of 8th Air Force trying to learn the kind of war it was trying to fight, it had sub-par equipment, no long ranged escorts and a poorly thought out battle plan

[remote monolith]

the german war production target by mid 1944 was to the effect of 5,000 aircrafts a month. Thanks to the bombings it never really went above 3,500 even at September

and this is after they converted multiple tank factories into aircrafts and focusing on single-seaters

[grave ravine]

The August Regensburg raid caused a month long BF-109 production halt causing an estimated 500 plane production shortfall

In addition production quality was noted to have dropped at the Regensburg plant for the rest of the war as the Nazis resorted to slave labor to make up for the loss of the workforce

[desert agate]

It was the sort of mistake that the RAF had made years before, and had learned from, but the Americans had, in no small part thanks to Harris, mostly ignored any advice the RAF had to offer

[remote monolith]

and inhuman work hours of 72 hour shifts a week

[grave ravine]

While the British night bombing had somewhat lower (but ultimately still significant) losses, its worth emphasizing that it of course would not result in the same drawdowns in Luftwaffe strength from the Eastern Front

[remote monolith]

then Speer having a collapse trying to make sure it looks like he really did make a war economy recovery in front of Hitler when in reality he didn't really achieve that much

[desert agate]

I don't think 8th Air Force should have adopted night bombing

However I think that the RAF had a better approach to target selection, and also had the better equipment for striking those targets

[grave ravine]

It is definitely unfortunate that 8AF lacked long range escort fighters in 1943, but ultimately we had to fight the war with what we had, and the Pacific Theater had up to that point had priority on long ranged fighters

[remote monolith]

so yeah overall the bombings did have an effect, although by 1944 it didn't really matter since German planes were dying in rates that even a healthy industry can't catch up to

[desert agate]

I mean 44 is when the Luftwaffe starts being deleted in the quantities that the 43 raids intended to achieve

[grave ravine]

that was largely a consequence of the development and fielding of P-51s with large drop tanks, which enabled the Big Week raids

[remote monolith]

yep

[grave ravine]

While the Luftwaffe did suffer non-negligible attrition in the 1943 raids, and was forced to drawdown forces from the Eastern Front, it was not destroyed until early 1944

[remote monolith]

hell Adam Tooze even went as far as to opine that the Allies should have intensified bombing over the Ruhr since it would have utterly crippled German production in pure numbers

although of course the cost would have been even greater

[grave ravine]

As far as target selection goes I'd generally agree that the Ruhr offensive was better thought out than American raids, though its perhaps possible that if a concerted effort was made to repeatedly hit Schweinfurt that more decisive results could have been achieved. That being said the RAF took a definite wrong turn with the shift to the Battle of Berlin in late 1943.

[desert agate]

Repeatedly hitting Schweinfurt is only possible without the losses that the October raid sustained

[remote monolith]

oh yeah also, it need to be said that the early 1944 surges were because they're the effects of earlier, pre-raids measures

the effects of the late 43 raids only started to manifest around June-July

[grave ravine]

its possible that the RAF could have conducted follow up night raids, but in any event they didn't, so its all what ifs

[desert agate]

That's more down the the politics between Bomber Command and 8th Air Force

[grave ravine]

And anyways it would be more effective had it happened in the aftermath of the August raid rather than the October one

[grave ravine]

yep

[desert agate]

Harris was notably impossible to work with if you didn't outrank him, and he was hardly making exemplary calls on target selection either

[remote monolith]

For one thing, Saur's story took no account of the inevitable time lags
in aircraft production. Even the simplest fighter took six months to
produce, from raw material to finished machine. Since the Jaegerstab
itself came into existence in February of 1944, the measures it had taken
and the resources it had mobilized could not show their full effects
before August 1944. A large part of the increase in production up to
July 1944 could only be explained in terms of measures taken prior to
the formation of the Jaegerstab. Most importantly, the Air Ministry
in the course of 1943 had extracted 317,000 workers from Sauckel for
the Luftwaffe industries, in addition to 243,000 workers obtained on its
own initiative. Amongst this number the Air Ministry claimed 'credit'
for the extra 100,000 concentration camp inmates supplied by the SS
in 1943 and 1944.

[grave ravine]

As for equipment, while I'd generally agree that the Lancaster was a somewhat better aircraft than the B-17 or B-24 (product of being significantly newer), in 1943 it still made up less than half of Bomber Command's aircraft, and B-17 and B-24 were generally superior to other British types

[desert agate]

the B-24 was yes

The B-17, much less so

[grave ravine]

B-24 was of course newer than most of said other British types, while B-17 was ancient, but had received iterative upgrades

[grave ravine]

B-17 was definitely superior to a Wellington or Halifax

[desert agate]

That's really not a high bar

[remote monolith]

The disaster began at the end of September with an attack by RAF
Bomber Command which drained the Dortmund-Ems canal.95 The
giant marshalling yard at Hamm was hit repeatedly in September and
October, reducing its capacity by 75 per cent. The Rhine was blocked
on 14 October by the destruction of the Cologne-Muelheim bridge.
Between 14 and 18 October rail shipments of coal from the Ruhr were
halted completely, and the disruption in the reverse direction was even
more severe. In early October only one of fifty ore trains was making it
into the Ruhr. For lack of iron ore, steel production in the Ruhr by
January 1945 was down by 66 per cent relative to the previous year.
Though Allied bombing strategy actually shifted in November and
December away from the absolute prioritization of transport targets,
the sheer weight of tonnage dropped was sufficient to bring about near
total collapse.

Between November 1944 and January 1945 the British
and American air forces delivered no less than 102,796 tons against
transport targets, mainly railway marshalling yards. On 11 November
Speer reported to Hitler that the Ruhr was effectively sealed off from the rest of the Reich.96 The shortfall in hard coal deliveries from the Ruhr
between August 1944 and January 1945 was a massive 36.5 million tons,
at least six weeks of normal consumption. In December 1944 Germany
faced the first of three consecutive winters without adequate supplies of
coal. Not until 1948 were reliable connections restored between the
Ruhr mines and the urban centres of Germany.

Reading contemporary sources, there can be no doubt that the Battle
of the Ruhr marked a turning point in the history of the German war
economy, which has been grossly underestimated by post-war
accounts.29 As Speer himself acknowledged, the RAF was hitting the
right target.30 The Ruhr was not only Europe's most important producer
of coking coal and steel, it was also a crucial source of intermediate components of all kinds. Disrupting production in the Ruhr had the
capacity to halt assembly lines across Germany. When the first of
the heavy raids struck Krupp in Essen, Speer immediately travelled to
the Ruhr with a view to learning general lessons in disaster management.

Following the onset of heavy air raids in the first quarter of
1943, steel production fell by 200,000 tons. Having anticipated an
increase in total steel production to more than 2.8 million tons per
month and allocated steel accordingly, the Zentrale Planung now faced
a shortfall of almost 400,000 tons. All the painstaking effort that had
gone into reorganizing the rationing system was negated by the ability
of the British to disrupt production more or less at will. In light of the
steel shortage, Hitler and Speer had no option but to implement an
immediate cut to the ammunition programme.34 After more than doubling
in 1942, ammunition production in 1943 increased by only 20 per
cent.35 And it was not just ammunition that was hit. In the summer of
1943, the disruption in the Ruhr manifested itself across the German
economy in a so-called 'Zulieferungskrise' (sub-components crisis). All
manner of parts, castings and forgings were suddenly in short supply.

[vocal coral]

A huge number of radios were supplied under Lend Lease

[grave ravine]

Its most of the British force in 1943, Lancaster ultimately only proliferates widely in late 1943/early 1944

[vocal coral]

about 50% if I'm not mistaken

And motorized like 63%

studebakers ...

[remote monolith]

yeap and yeap

[vocal coral]

and 16,000 motorcycles that the USSR didn't even seem to produce

[vocal coral]

although their value is debatable of course

[remote monolith]

basically what lend-lease achieved best was allowing the Soviets to free up men from being tied to factories and fields and putting them to the field, in addition to equipping them with the necessary equipments needed to pull off multiple mechanized offensives within a several month period

Without Lend-Lease food, clothing, and raw materials (especially metals), the Soviet economy would have been even more heavily burdened by the war effort. Perhaps most directly, without Lend-Lease trucks, rail engines, and railroad cars, every Soviet offensive would have stalled at an earlier stage, outrunning its logistical tail in a matter of days. In turn, this would have allowed the German commanders to escape at least some encirclements, while forcing the Red Army to prepare and conduct many more deliberate penetration attacks in order to advance the same distance. Left to their own devices, Stalin and his commanders might have taken 12 to 18 months longer to finish off the Wehrmacht; the ultimate result would probably have been the same, except that Soviet soldiers could have waded at France's Atlantic beaches. Thus, while the Red Army shed the bulk of Allied blood, it would have shed more blood for longer without Allied assistance.

[vocal coral]

Yes

[remote monolith]

stuff like Bagration's massive penetration would not have been possible

[vocal coral]

this is the main value of these supplies, because the most fertile lands of the USSR were captured, there were not enough people, the mines were also captured, so supplies of materials and food helped during the offensive of 42-43

[remote monolith]

like, when the offensive started around roughly the midpoint of Belarus and ended up right outside warsaw, you'd see how much lend-lease contributed to ensuring the Soviets keep the momentum going coherently

[vocal coral]

although I still don't understand how the USSR could produce something when literally all the industrial regions of the country were captured

[remote monolith]

it helped that Stalin was already encouraging major industrialization in the Urals by the late 1930s

so they had a base to work with

[vocal coral]

Of course, there was an evacuation of factories, but I still don't understand how it is possible to do it so quickly

[remote monolith]

oh no I meant that there were already weapon factories in the Urals before the evacuations, they simply went into overdrive and the added evacuated factories helped

[vocal coral]

Ah

Understand

[runic ermine]

I still wonder how Japan was planning on dealing with both China and the US

Because by 1941, progress in China had slowed

[vocal coral]

They had every chance to defeat the United States at sea and force them to sit down at the negotiating table, and just, well, come to an agreement

[runic ermine]

Decisive battle doctrine correct

[vocal coral]

The Japanese literally annihilated Britain and its allies at sea, and seized huge resource bases in Malaysia and Indochina

[remote monolith]

this is what happens when operations usurped strategy in importance

they stopped asking why should we go to war in China and with the US a long time ago and went straight to how

[runic ermine]

Yeah but how were they exactly planning on fighting on two fronts without getting annihilated?

[remote monolith]

and they couldn't even explain the how coherently

[runic ermine]

So the answer is: "We don't even know but we'll figure it out as we go along"

[vocal coral]

and the USA... And what about the USA? An incomprehensible policy, it is unclear who to help, the USSR and Britain, or Germany, which had every chance to win. A small land army, an industry that has not yet been fully mobilized, and an absolutely idiotic decision to keep the entire fleet in ONE BASE

[remote monolith]

more or less, and its safe to assume they were banking on the same thing that happened in 1905 to happen to them in WWII

[vocal coral]

In fact, it was a Japanese blitzkrieg, to destroy the US surface battleships and FORCE them to sit down at the negotiating table and recognize Japan's dominance in the Pacific Ocean, this would allow Japan to attack the USSR

and then there would be the Reikommissariat of Muscovy now

[remote monolith]

give them a bloody nose, secure a seemingly strong position in places the Europeans would consider far-off backwaters, and bring them into negotiations because the price would be too great

[vocal coral]

but the Japanese are also idiots who did not destroy the repair docks, and brought the aircraft carriers ahead of the whole group in the battle for Midway

[vocal coral]

Yes

[runic ermine]

Yet they got wreaked by the Soviets and Mongolians 3 years prior

[vocal coral]

my great-grandfather served at the front with Japan, and received a medal for capturing a Japanese prisoner

Funny story

plus, the Soviet delegation in Tokyo desperately tried to force Japan not to attack, there are a lot of good books about this, too, a beautiful story

[remote monolith]

the problem with this thinking was that they more or less based it on the Russian response, when that was because the Tsar nearly lost his throne and had to send an army bigger than what he had in Manchuria to start shooting protesters

[runic ermine]

Also note how people like Fedorov saw how light machine guns were going to be important in the future of warfare

Because of how Madsen mgs shredded Japanese infantry charges and were lighter than Maxims and other heavy MGs of the time

[desert agate]

‘Japan’ wasn’t planning to do anything
The Japanese army and navy planned to do things specifically to spite each other

[vocal coral]

Throughout the war with Germany, the USSR kept an army of 2 million on the border with Japan

[desert agate]

There was no unified planning on how to conduct the war, there was no more grand strategy in 1937 as there was in 1941 or 45

[desert agate]

Because in spite of the non aggression pact, the Kwantung Army could, and probably would have made a move if the Soviets showed weakness

[runic ermine]

But if they could actually get results is another question entirely

[desert agate]

The Kwantung Army notably did not care what Tokyo had to say about diplomacy

[runic ermine]

Reminds me how the Ottoman navy got the entire empire involved in ww1 just because they wanted to

[remote monolith]

"Ottoman Navy"

[vocal coral]

In general, the pact was, I believe, more of a formality, even officially Japan could violate it without any political problems for itself

[chilly osprey]

Yeah, that was very much the Germans

[vocal coral]

Based navy

[remote monolith]

aka the German dude and his ridiculously strong naval squadron that managed to talk his way into being head of the Ottoman Navy and using that to drag the entire empire kicking and screaming

[runic ermine]

On that note, they did not declare war on pretty much everybody they invaded

[vocal coral]

Yes

[desert agate]

When I’m in a most incompetent political leader of the 20th century challenge and my opponent is Enver Pasha

[vocal coral]

Well, like who would condemn them ? The Britain they're fighting ? or the USA ?

[runic ermine]

I think the fact that he sent troops in desert uniforms into the Caucasus and 22,000 of them froze to death said how much of a planner he was

[chilly osprey]

Certainly it's less of a concern if you think you're going to win the war.

Though reality being what it is, people will hold it against you when it comes time for peace.

[runic ermine]

Yet not knowing how

[chilly osprey]

But to a certain extent Japan was on an unarrestable path towards destroying itself in an unwinnable war regardless of whether or not it thought it could be won.

Because the military system had just spun so far out of control and was so wound up in its own envisioned scenarios.

[vocal coral]

If Germany had defeated the USSR, the Reich would have simply reached an agreement with the United States and Britain, and everything would have been fine for the Axis, I don't think everyone would have any problems with Japan. They would have given Malaysia or a couple of islands to the Brtans, and the Japanese would have immediately become pratners

[runic ermine]

Something similar happened with Slovakia. They only got involved on the Eastern Front in order to goto Germany and say: "Hey Germany, we're so much better than Hungary, please give us tanks"

[vocal coral]

Like Franko lol

[desert agate]

Utter delusion

[vocal coral]

Why do you think so ?

[chilly osprey]

Certainly not. The US and UK's leadership had already resolved that to leave the continent under fascism domination would be an existential threat and was intolerable.

If the Axis somehow defeat the USSR, then long term all that really does is just ensure German cities experience atomic fire.

As invading Europe proper would be incredibly difficult, even considering the burden of having to garrison the former USSR.

But Japan's defeat would still happen anyways

Because nothing there is really changing the naval or air balance of forces there.

[vocal coral]

Germany would have seized the USSR's nuclear weapons developments, uranium mines and a huge amount of labor, what would have prevented them from forcing the United States to sit down at the negotiating table? If they had won, say in 1942

[desert agate]

By the time of Barbarossa, the war in the Pacific was an inevitability, there was no avoiding it, even if the Kwantung Army had somehow managed to find the political capital to actually launch an attack on the USSR (everyone was keenly aware that it was their fault Japan was in this mess anyway), the navy would have attacked Pearl Harbour, there was simply no way that the Navy wouldn’t go to war

[runic ermine]

Also every other country they had taken by that point (France, Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Yugoslavia, Greece, Austria and Czechoslovakia)

[chilly osprey]

If the USSR is defeated in 1942, then the Soviet nuclear program barely exists.

The Allies still have the bomb far before the Germans, and the Germans experience cities dissappearing until they surrender in the long term (if they hold out that long).

And Germany was still very far from a bomb by the end of WWII, historically speaking.

This does basically nothing to accelerate that

[runic ermine]

And as I mentioned earlier, the war in China had slowed down for Japan. They weren't making massive advances like that had been a few years ago

[chilly osprey]

And that's not even touching on the delivery aspect

The Allies have a way to deliver bombs over Berlin

[vocal coral]

I just think that Germany's victory could have happened in 1942, and then I think they would have started negotiating with them, but why would the United States and Britain fight Germany at that time ?

[chilly osprey]

The Germans have no way of getting bombs to the US

[chilly osprey]

In 1942?

Because they were already at war, and committed to destroying them and liberating Europe.

[runic ermine]

Didn't they try making a bomber for that tho?

[chilly osprey]

A fascist dominated Europe was an existential threat

And they were committed to the idea of a fairer post-war world

[desert agate]

Yes the non-aggression pact irl is what gave the Navy the political capital to actually go ahead with launching the Pacific war, but the Kwantung Army having the nerve to suggest an attack on the Soviets especially after their disastrous campaign in 1936, would have given the navy the win it needed to attack Pearl again

[chilly osprey]

The Atlantic Charter was signed before the US was even formally in the war

[remote monolith]

which was by an large a mostly unworkable endeavour

[vocal coral]

Why ? Why wasn't Franco, for example ? Or Salazar ?

[desert agate]

Why would the USA and Commonwealth not fight the Germans? If anything a Soviet defeat gives them more motivation

[chilly osprey]

Because Spain was a bug

Spain is no threat to anyone

[grave ravine]

And like the US Army spent most of the late 40s preparing to invade Spain anyways

[remote monolith]

for one thing Salazr and Franco weren't genocidal maniacs that fully broadcasted their intention to subsume every single sovereign country in Europe into their own empire

[chilly osprey]

Spain is not a great power and had not been for over a hundred years, with no real industrial potential

[desert agate]

The famous Spanish legions marching across Europe while 20% of their people live in caves

[chilly osprey]

Germany and Italy, with Europe's resources? Big effing problem.

Anywho

The idea that the Allies would just drop out because of the USSR's defeat is silly.

[grave ravine]

If Franco stepped out of line, he was going to get the shit smacked out of him

[remote monolith]

and he knew it

[chilly osprey]

Don't forget the British stuck it out for over a year between France's fall, when they were alone, before Germany invaded the USSR, and the USSR was allied to Nazi Germany.

[desert agate]

Madrid the moment Franco makes a random irredentist claim to somewhere that no one cares about:

[remote monolith]

hence Madrid being the hotspot of Allied and Axis spy activity because Franco just let both sides do whatever kind of espionage they liked there

[vocal coral]

I just don't understand why waste resources on a war then. if Germany has gained vast expanses and resources, yes, it will be necessary to somehow hold the territory of the USSR, but it is only a matter of time. Britain has been at war since 1939, and I think it would not have been very eager to continue the war, the United States would have been left essentially alone. You can just sit down and negotiate

[desert agate]

https://tenor.com/view/explosion-mushroom-cloud-atomic-bomb-bomb-boom-gif-4464831

[chilly osprey]

This is the Britain that fired upon former allies half to deny the French fleet to Germany and half to show the world they had the resolve to keep going.

They were committed.

[chilly osprey]

To quote a famous man from WWII;

"You cannot reason with a tiger when your head is in its mouth"

Nazi Germany was a rabid dog that had to be put down

[remote monolith]

also Germany kinda telegraphed the whole we would like to dismantle your empire and turn you into an impotent German puppet thing to Britain

[chilly osprey]

It was an existential war

[runic ermine]

It was also reeling from a civil war which killed 2 million people

[grave ravine]

Remember, the US didn't declare war on Nazi Germany

[remote monolith]

hell Hitler ranted a lot about it in his wreck of a book

[grave ravine]

Nazi Germany declared war on the US

[desert agate]

Britain had in 1942 functionally infinite resources from its empire. Britain alone could not stand against Germany, Britain with its empire could keep the fight on forever, meanwhile the German economy was a ticking time bomb, always just around the corner from exploding with disastrous results

[grave ravine]

Britain and its empire alone were outproducing the Nazis with all of occupied Europe in their hands

[runic ermine]

However, said colonies still needed to get their act together in order to help Britain

[chilly osprey]

And in any case, even if you assumed that wasn't the case, then a negotiated peace would just give Germany time to take advantages of the resources conquered in the USSR, to come back stronger and be a real threat to the US and UK - which was always the long term risk.

Better to kill it in the cradle

Because Germany could not have made a real use of the USSR's resources in the short term (to a 5 year horizon)

[desert agate]

In what world did the empire not rally behind Britain?

[remote monolith]

reminder that the u-boats were already not being really effective in actually strangling britain from the seas and it took the American merchant fleet entering the war unaccustomed to anti-sub tactics for the kriegsmarine to start really having good times again

[runic ermine]

No i mean like they need to prepare for war themselves. Like how they didn't exactly have large tank forces prior to ww2 and how they couldn't fully rely on Britain to give them tanks after Dunkirk

[chilly osprey]

Worth also remembering that Britain had just had a tour de force over the last six years prior to WWII of what it meant to negotiate with Nazi Germany. Give them an inch for peace, they take a mile.

They knew they could not trust Germany. You cannot negotiate your way to peace with some powers. You have to kick them in the teeth until they can no longer bite.

[grave ravine]

and in a very real sense the USN let the Germans run free on American coasts, because it was thought that the merchant fleet taking a bit of a hammering was less of an issue than diverting valuable surface combatants away from the Pacific

[desert agate]

The Indian army in WW2 was the largest volunteer army fielded in human history, Canada and Australia both fielded fleets and air forces, much of which being domestically produced that were far in excess of what would otherwise have been expected of them

New Zealand produced more in reverse lend lease back to the USA and UK than it received

[remote monolith]

Yeah overall the bites weren't that hard or painful

[grave ravine]

even during the 2nd Happy Time the US could simply absorb the losses without losing step

[desert agate]

And South Africa participated without having a civil war

Genuinely quite the achievement on their part

[runic ermine]

And Newfoundland managed to send 2 Regiments and a Squadron. They also let the allies use their ports

[vocal coral]

I've returned

[runic ermine]

But they needed tanks. Hence why Canada, Australia, and New Zealand tried to make their own tanks. To varying degrees of success

[vocal coral]

Sorry

[desert agate]

Canada was the most mechanised army of WW2

[grave ravine]

Canada built more trucks during the war than the USSR

[desert agate]

Australia produced a domestic tank manufacturing line from scratch with 0 manufacturing or tooling assistance from overseas and no experience in AFV production

[mint quiver]

Where did you pull this out from

[runic ermine]

And of WW1 surprisingly. The world's first motorized infantry brigade in history
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Automobile_Machine_Gun_Brigade

[desert agate]

The only foreign assistance in the Sentinel program was the suspension and drivetrain being developer off French and American vehicles

[remote monolith]

When Titans Clashed by David Glantz

[desert agate]

These programs took time to set up, the fallout of Dunkirk was a shock to the Commonwealth and directly led to those mechanisation efforts in Canada and Australia

[remote monolith]

now I have been told that on this part Glantz might be slightly miscalculating and its likelier that David Stahel's stalemate assertion is actually more accurate

but overall Glantz was right in that a full win against the USSR was unlikely on Germany's part

[desert agate]

The fact that they both managed to field domestically manufactured AFVs at all is insane considering that they started the war with nothing

[runic ermine]

I mentioned that above

[remote monolith]

they simply did not have the manpower, industry, or resources to indefinitely push towards the Urals or even take Moscow

[grave ravine]

Ok, Canada actually built more trucks during WW2 than the USSR and Nazi Germany combined

[desert agate]

Regardless the point stands that the commonwealth punched well above its weight in WW2

[remote monolith]

like, AG Center was in a bad condition when they arrived outside of Moscow

[runic ermine]

I love how the ram itself wasn't used in combat but several of its variants were. Like the Ram Kangaroo, Ram Badger, and Sexton Mk1 (the mk2 was a Grizzly variant)

[remote monolith]

real bad

[runic ermine]

800,000 is a lot

[desert agate]

Canada had the advantage of being able to specialise its industry because it had allies that would produce whatever it couldn’t

[remote monolith]

there was only about 700 tanks of various kind in the entirety of AG Center, for the whole front, by Dec 1941 and that's after Germany stripped AG North of most of its armored components

[vocal coral]

It's just that the terrain is terrible for an offensive

Especially after Moscow, it's literally hell there

[desert agate]

Australia had the unique challenge of having to build its own planes, warships and all other implements of battle independently, it had to build its own all aspect force, Canada could buy most of theirs

[grave ravine]

The top 3 truck producers in WW2 were the US, Canada, and UK in that order

Only the US built more trucks than Canada

[mint quiver]

This

[remote monolith]

yep, I'm aware

[vocal coral]

Trucks trucks and trucks

[remote monolith]

Glantz is admittedly an old source

its roughly 30 years old now

[spring briar]

Is it though

[grave ravine]

and any of the 3 outproduced the entire Axis

[remote monolith]

its still very good for the general overview of the eastern front mind you and is still a magnum opus no matter what, its just this assertion that's a bit problematic

[desert agate]

We built basically 0 trucks because we quickly realised that trucks are useless in the Pacific and the small quantities we did need were just more economical to grab from the Americans

[runic ermine]

Canada outproducing Germany, Italy, and Japan put together is wild

[vocal coral]

Japanese moment

[mint quiver]

Streched supply lines and soviet roads do not speak well for logistics

[desert agate]

Japanese?????

When I say ‘we’ I mean Australia

[runic ermine]

Hence why they still use Armored Trains

[vocal coral]

but the Japanese also did not build trucks, from the word at all, Japanese logistics as a whole is a separate conversation

[mint quiver]

It was more like "What is logistics"

[runic ermine]

They did build a few

[vocal coral]

the logistics system of donkeys and 5 kilograms of rice is strong

[desert agate]

The Japanese had a thriving auto industry and built a lot of trucks

[remote monolith]

stretched supply lines, rapid advances over several hundred kilometers, horrid road conditions, and the threat of getting shanked by Soviet stragglers every other village forcing guards to be posted every time they capture something which weakens the spearhead more and more

[desert agate]

They were the least mechanised of the major combatants but they were where they needed to be

[remote monolith]

tbf after 1943 that's a tossup between Japan and Germany

[mint quiver]

And in case of Japanese logistics the naval was the primary concern

[vocal coral]

but they didn't use them much because of the difficult terrain ... In the attack on Indochina, just where is there to use trucks, even for supplies ?

[desert agate]

China and the Pacific Islands are not good for mechanised armies regardless

[vocal coral]

Just where ?

[remote monolith]

you'd be surprised how many supposedly mechanized German divisions ended up not having any actual mechanized forces and making do with civvie trucks

[mint quiver]

German army motorisation was and is a myth

Mostly because goebbels did a good job

[desert agate]

Thinking about that Japanese general who brought a white horse along the Kokoda track

[runic ermine]

They used a lot of horses and donkeys

[remote monolith]

and sometimes they didn't even have trucks, they leg it on foot

[desert agate]

Absolutely insane

[vocal coral]

Hah

[spring briar]

dreams of french armoured cars

[vocal coral]

For some reason, people think that a truck is better than a horse or a donkey

[desert agate]

Tomitarō Horii what were you thinking

[grave ravine]

Japan built like twice as many trucks as Italy did

[desert agate]

In the majority of cases it is

[runic ermine]

It depends on the terrain

In Afghanistan the US literally did a cavalry charge

[vocal coral]

You're all right in your own way

[grave ravine]

they really, really are

[spring briar]

No I’m pretty sure todd and spon are quoting literature

[mint quiver]

If you have fuel

[runic ermine]

Were they good for their time?

[spring briar]

Yes

[desert agate]

In the majority of cases if you can’t use a truck then you also can’t use a mule, which means the argument is invalid because you’re fighting in Papua and the only logistics comes from pure human muscle

[mint quiver]

French armor in general was aight but at the same time it was badly designed

[runic ermine]

And Italy built more tank destroyers than Japan

[spring briar]

They were a leap in French army mechanisation

[spring briar]

Mostly badly implemented into the doctrine

[runic ermine]

2 man tank doctrine (but the Char B1 and Char 2C are an exception)

[mint quiver]

This

[spring briar]

Char 2C is not relevant

Only 10 were made

[runic ermine]

51st Tank Battalion

[remote monolith]

for example, the 90th Panzergrenadier Division, forget about trucks and APCs, they're lucky if they could even find enough men for their battalions to function properly by the time the war's over

[spring briar]

Not relevant

[vocal coral]

The army needs motorized, but armies often also need donkeys and horses, even if it is an offensive over relatively acceptable terrain, such as the Soviet Kwantung offensive

most of the logistics was still horse-drawn

[remote monolith]

and then there's the supposed tank hunter battalions that's basically active AT battalions that's supposed to actively seek out and hunt tanks

while on foot and only having Panzerfausts

and no way to recon their way

[desert agate]

That’s less a statement on the effectiveness of trucks and more one of the poor state of Soviet logistics in the far east

[runic ermine]

Yeah but I just wanted to mention how it was even a military formation

[runic ermine]

Or the poor state of the roads

Even today they're still muddy

[spring briar]

Atleast our coastal defences were in great shape for Ww2

[grave ravine]

I mean my original point was just to illustrate the impact of the commonwealth, but like thanks in no small part to Canadian truck production, the armies of the US, UK, and the Commonwealth just didn't need large numbers of horses and donkeys

[spring briar]

[mint quiver]

If we want to laugh at something there is always current day Rus navy

[vocal coral]

Nevertheless, this did not in any way prevent the Soviet blitzkrieg, as well as, for example, the Japanese blitzkrieg in Siam ...

[spring briar]

Stop calling everything blitzkrieg

[runic ermine]

Or the current state of the Royal Navy. It's way too undersized

[mint quiver]

Akshually

it was Bewegungs Krieg

Blitzkrieg is just a buzzword

[grave ravine]

never even used by the Germans

[runic ermine]

The Black Sea Fleet right?

[vocal coral]

The Commonwealth should love horse-drawn transport more ...

[mint quiver]

At this point we can safely belive that their entire navy is in the same state

Shoigu needed new Yacht

instead of actually keeping ships in good shape

[vocal coral]

Well, that's what I call any quick breakthrough

[spring briar]

Yikes

[remote monolith]

me when my general said bewegungskrieg but we ended up stellungskrieging all the way to the Rhine

[chilly osprey]

Depends on the branch

[grave ravine]

eh, the Northern and Pacific Fleet were always the most capable ones

[chilly osprey]

Their nuclear submarine force remains top tier

[spring briar]

Can you really call it a breaktrough if there were no troops defending?

[chilly osprey]

Even as the surface fleet and diesel boat force has degraded

[mint quiver]

I miss Pringles

[vocal coral]

[runic ermine]

They still use Battlecrusiers for some reason

[vocal coral]

The Russian Navy has always been unhappy

Always

[spring briar]

Not even distantly related to actual battlecruisers but ok

[chilly osprey]

Heavy nuclear guided missile cruisers.

Only foreign sources call them battlecruisers

And they use them because they have no ability to replace them

[mint quiver]

Russians always tried to experiment with unsusual designs for their time

[runic ermine]

Well I'm foreign

[chilly osprey]

Since frigate production is ground to a halt

[runic ermine]

I like that about them

[vocal coral]

It was only during the time of Catherine II that the Black Sea Fleet was excellent

[chilly osprey]

And that's the largest surface combatant type they can build at present

[mint quiver]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-270_Moskit

funny dildo

[grave ravine]

as far as diesel boats go though they are still producing a decent number of them and are proliferating kalibr through the fleet now

[chilly osprey]

Moskit is a scary dildo

[spring briar]

Looks excessively heavy

[mint quiver]

it is

[runic ermine]

To be fair, they did sink the majority of Ukraine's surface fleet. They just have had a lot (and I mean A LOT) of f ups

[chilly osprey]

Old but scary for its day

[runic ermine]

Like a lot a lot

[spring briar]

France should start nuclear tipping all their oth missiles

[mint quiver]

I mean i remember when the war started

it was such a shitshow

[vocal coral]

First of all, Russia has 4 completely different fleets, the Atlantic, Murmansk, Baltic, black, and Pacific fleets, and I remind you that these 4 fleets are not connected at all, and they are in diametrically different conditions, and unique ships are needed everywhere

Like

[grave ravine]

Ukraine never had a surface fleet worth mentioning

[runic ermine]

Both sides lost their flagships

[vocal coral]

These are literally the worst conditions possible. At all

[grave ravine]

Ukraine always relied on shore based AShMs for coastal defense

[chilly osprey]

Well, yes, but they're also still producing Kilo's because they can't develop anything better.

[mint quiver]

Yeah but in this case i think the Russian loss was magnitude greater than whatever Ukrainians lost

Ukr navy was never meant to contest anything

[grave ravine]

yeah fair enough

[vocal coral]

Actually, there was, and a pretty decent one

[runic ermine]

To sum it up. Ukraine has lost more ships while Russia has lost more tonnage

[runic ermine]

Their Flagship was very impressive. I forget her name tho

[spice dawn]

I'll take losing a dinghy to having a carrier that doesn't function

[chilly osprey]

What, prior to 2014?

The Ukrainian navy of 2022 was a shell of a real force

[runic ermine]

Even by 2022

[chilly osprey]

There was not much to lose

[vocal coral]

Nooo, 2021

Isn 't 35 ships of the surface fleet enough ?

[chilly osprey]

Nothing functional larger than a corvette

[grave ravine]

it really wasn't, they had a Krivak and a handful of missile boats and patrol craft

[runic ermine]

Frigate and Large Landing ship. Both sunk tho

[chilly osprey]

The fleet was largely smaller patrol vessels with limited warfighting capacity

[chilly osprey]

functional was the operative word there

[runic ermine]

Because it's only ment to be on the black sea. Like Romania's navy

[vocal coral]

Once upon a time, Ukraine had a fleet almost the same as Russia's on all oceans, think about it

In 1993

[runic ermine]

Also Russia somehow managed to keep that one sub from being completely written off

[chilly osprey]

Well, more like the Russians stole most of the fleet in 2014 and only gave back a handful of ships, and Ukraine lacked the resources to build a credible sea denial force in the interveneing eight years

[grave ravine]

The Krivak was both not in great shape, but also its a Krivak, it was basically useless anyways

[vocal coral]

In general, it is a pity for the Russian navy, it only began to receive funding in the late 80s, when the Soviet Union was already falling apart

[chilly osprey]

What

No

The USSR put loads of resources into its fleet starting in the 1930s

[mint quiver]

Ukr navy was mostly coastal defence force on onset of the invasion

[chilly osprey]

WWII interrupted things but there's a reason they started having a global presence starting in the late 1960s

[runic ermine]

15 Battleships and some poor guy had to tell stalin that it's unrealistic

[mint quiver]

Cough Plan Z

Navy is a gigantic money-sink

And in case of USSR it isnt all that important

[vocal coral]

Well... The Soviet Union never made the navy its priority, as the United States did, for example

[chilly osprey]

This is flatly incorrect.

[spring briar]

What are these takes

[runic ermine]

Because it's only on the Black Sea

[chilly osprey]

Are we pretending Gorshkov's entire career didn't happen?

[vocal coral]

the navy has always been poor and impoverished, there was no experience in rebuilding ships, and it was very difficult to get a maritime normal education peoples

[runic ermine]

Mine are good takes

[mint quiver]

They were investing quite heavily into navy tho

[runic ermine]

Soeaking from experience?

[chilly osprey]

The VMF was a critical element to Soviet nuclear deterrence and warfighting strategy

[mint quiver]

Because as a superpower they needed global presence

and you cannot do it without navy

[chilly osprey]

One of the most important, in fact, in terms of securing the reserve of strategic firepower to effect war termination should the Cold War go hot, and as an assured second strike in peace time.

[runic ermine]

Japan tried to in the 1500s. And Korea showed them why it was a bad idea

[remote monolith]

is that even applicable here considering the different context

[mint quiver]

But still main component of USSR was its ground forces

[vocal coral]

Yes, but, well, I mean, please just compare the number of trained personnel in the USA, the number of shipyards in the USA, the experience in building ships and the experience of their use, and the USSR, where normal shipyards began to be built only in the late 1930s, and there were ZERO experienced personnel

[runic ermine]

Yes. Because it's a big reason as to why a navy is nessasary

[mint quiver]

because muh fulda gap

[runic ermine]

And the UK was the opposite because it's an island with an Empire

[vocal coral]

the complexity of the logistics of the fleet and so on, and there has always been some kind of confusion, a bunch of different ship designs, there is no standardization

[spring briar]

Phoenix kill this guy for me pls

I gotta go

[grave ravine]

I mean the main Soviet thrust would have probably been on the North German Plain rather than in the Fulda Gap

[vocal coral]

Even in the 1960s, almost every new ship had a unique design

[runic ermine]

I'll tell you how this turns out

[vocal coral]

Like it's terrible

[remote monolith]

I mean one is about projecting global level of influence as a superpower and the other is just the fact that you kinda need supply for the most basic level of combat and you can't do that if your navy literally had almost no experience on fighting protracted naval battles against outsiders and failing to get supplies in

[runic ermine]

Can project influence if your navy is getting it's ass kicked by a country who's much smaller

[chilly osprey]

I mean, I can, but the point is not to compare the USSR to the United States, in terms of naval infrastructure.

The point is that the USSR did in fact invest heavily into its navy and its navy was an important part of its power projection, strategic arsenal, and general warfighting capability. They started this investment relatively early in their history, and even though WWII set them back, they bui,lt up to become the world's 2nd largest navy from the 1960s until their collapse.

To say that the VMF did not recieve real funding until the 1980s is just completely incorrect

[remote monolith]

but, Korea wasn't smaller? It also was backed by the literal superpower of Asia for the majority of pre-19th century world

[runic ermine]

Even today it's still important

[chilly osprey]

Oh, certainly

Absolutely the most important part of Russia's nuclear forces at a minimum

[runic ermine]

You mean the Chinese dynasties who were killing each other every couple hundred years?

[grave ravine]

Im pretty sure during the Cold War Britain was spending more on the Army than on the Navvy

[vocal coral]

Nevertheless, the navy was not given a dominant role, only as an element of deterrence, and it was not invested as much as, for example, in the army and aviation

[mint quiver]

I mean the main theater during Cold War was ground

[vocal coral]

I'm only talking about this, and that in the late 80s they really wanted to invest more in the navy and build STANDARDIZED ship designs

[mint quiver]

because USSR navy was not to contest US naval power

it was mostly local superiority in the Baltics

[grave ravine]

yeah, and the main British contribution to allied defense was the BAOR

[remote monolith]

does that change the fact that Chinese dynasties for the most part were literal superpowers whose courts continued to be visited by foreign dignitaries and that to gain the favor of China was highly sought after by Southeast Asian and East Asian polities

things rises and fall everywhere else too yknow

[vocal coral]

Oh, and I'm ONLY talking about the surface fleet

[mint quiver]

Until West figured the opium

Opium and its consequences on Chinese society

[runic ermine]

And got the entire population addicted

[chilly osprey]

Sure, but this is shifting goalposts. One does not need to be the dominant service branch to have heavy investment and funding. Which, again - the Soviets certainly invested very heavily into their navy the entire postwar period. One does not become the world's second largest navy and a massive strategic concern of the USN with no effort.

The VMF had a long-running, sustained buildup.

[mint quiver]

Another thing is that Chinese were as delusional as IJN high command during WW2

[chilly osprey]

Money did not start falling into their laps starting only in the 1980s

[vocal coral]

I just thought we were talking about only the Black Sea Fleet

Ae...

[mint quiver]

Peace out

[chilly osprey]

Right, but even then the Black Sea Fleet was still a major force in its own right, and was one of the major contributors to the Mediterranean Squadron?

[vocal coral]

Well, he was basically the Mediterranean squadron

I mean

Romanian and ...

Yugoslavia

These countries had only coastal defense fleets

and their fleets were not integrated into the USSR fleet system

[chilly osprey]

The Black Sea was basically a Soviet lake at the time, yeah

[vocal coral]

I just feel very sorry for the Black Sea fleet, it is so diverse and unique, and so useless in the realities of modern Russia

[chilly osprey]

But the Mediterranean Squadron was a large force and one of the largest examples of Soviet naval power projection. And that started in the late 1960s, being reflective of the Soviet naval buildup of the 1950s and 60s.

[vocal coral]

To be honest, I'm not well versed in the designs of Soviet ships of the 1950s and 1960s ...

I'm talking more about the ships of the 70s and 80s

when did full-fledged missile weapons begin to appear

[chilly osprey]

1960s

That's when they really started to proliferate

Though the earlier examples were already in service in the 1950s.

[vocal coral]

In fact, it is better to call the Atlantic or Pacific nuclear deterrence fleets, they were the ones with the most nuclear warheads and long-range ships

Black Sea...

[chilly osprey]

Well, yes, defense of the SSBN bastions is their most critical mission.

[vocal coral]

It's more of an amphibious fleet, I guess

[chilly osprey]

Sort of

[vocal coral]

to land in Italy or the south of France, it's just perfect for that

[chilly osprey]

It's still an important tool of Russian policy, since it's the main means by which they project power in the Black Sea region and the Mediterranean

It's played a very important role in every offensive war Russia has pursued in the region in the last 15-20 years or so.

[vocal coral]

Do you mean modern Russia or the USSR ?

Ah

[chilly osprey]

Modern Russia

Obviously still a huge power projection tool for the USSR back in the day, but they had the Black Sea locked down as a Soviet lake for the most part in the Cold War.

[vocal coral]

Well... The fleet is very expensive for the budget of modern Russia, and it doesn't really make sense to me

[chilly osprey]

Turkey was the only NATO member in the Black Sea and their navy wasn't a threat to the BSF.

[remote monolith]

speaking of Russia, it really said something about the absolute state of tsarist Russia when Italy and Austria-Hungary, two significantly less wealthy nations overall, managed to have wealthier and more well-off populations by a big margin

was readin about Austro-Hungarian war production and this hit me like a truck

[mint quiver]

What serfdom and backwards policy systems do to a mf

[vocal coral]

The modern fleet is gradually beginning to give way to a small-sized fleet in fields such as the Black Sea or the Baltic Sea. I mean...

[chilly osprey]

I mean, depends on your strategic goals?

For modern Russia, it has certainly been very useful for prosecuting their wars against Ukraine (2014 and the present continuation war), and for supporting operations in Syria during their Civil War or supporting Haftar in the Libyan Civil War.

[vocal coral]

Oh yes, poor Admiral Kuznetsov, who swam a couple of times and burned the budget of some tank division ...

[chilly osprey]

Well, technically she's assigned to the Northern Fleet rather than Black Sea

[vocal coral]

It seems to me that modern Russia, right now, does not really need a fleet in the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea

[remote monolith]

the backwardness sometimes felt unrealistic yet the Tsars really were just that reactionary

especially Nicholas and his dad

[vocal coral]

1 or 2 ?

Niko

[chilly osprey]

But the BSF played a fairly important role in blockading Ukraine and they were going to try a landing behind Ukrainian lines at the start of the war, but the ground forces were unable to secure a key bridge before the Ukrainians blew it, so they called the operation off.

[remote monolith]

admittedly partly because arsonists blew up Alexander II despite him being reform-minded

[remote monolith]

the shitty one

[vocal coral]

They both are

[chilly osprey]

But they expected the whole war effort to be over sooner otherwise they probably would have put more combatants into the Black Sea before the start of the war.

[remote monolith]

true, should have said the significantly shittier one

[vocal coral]

1 one ?

I think Nicholas the First was still much worse

[vocal coral]

+- yes

I agree

[remote monolith]

for me two is still worse because he simply completely refuse to give up autocratic powers despite the country literally erupting beneath him and everyone outside of his noblemen circle screaming at him that he's not going to last long if he keeps doing shenanigans

[chilly osprey]

I mean, the Baltic Sea they could certainly get away with having no major surface combatants - there's no real point anymore. But I think their war effort in Ukraine is a perfect demonstration of why they still have a need for a major surface force in the Black Sea.

Not to mention just the general principle of defending an important coastline in a region that, unlike the Baltic, is certainly still not a NATO lake and thus quite contestable in the short term.

[vocal coral]

I remember a long time ago at school, our history teacher told me what a good family man Nicholas II was, it's a pity that he was terrible as a tsar

[remote monolith]

that's the tragic part of him tbh

he's genuinely a good husband and friend, he's extraordinarily shitty as a ruler and has a talent of being stubborn on things that would literally kill him on the long term

which eventually did

[vocal coral]

This fleet is very vulnerable to drones and all that kind of stuff, I'm not saying if the Ukrainians had normal coastal missiles. Therefore, I think a small fleet is needed for the Black Sea :3

[vocal coral]

He was literally betrayed by his own British brother

The British always betray, it's an axiom

[remote monolith]

eeeh I mean, taking him in was definitely a massive risk to Britain internationally since the provisional government was still intent to fighting Germany, so whisking Nicholas would risk a massive strategical disadvantage

plus how would Nicholas even get there when nearly everyone in the country hated him and would rat him out

[vocal coral]

Interesting when the trarists navy will be added to AL

[grave ravine]

They added the Ganguts under their original tsarist names

[mint quiver]

@desert agate

[runic ermine]

He's also a Saint

Well, a Saint in the Orthodox Church

[maiden citrus]

they also didn't really have the numbers and supplies to pull off another wave (they almost had to abandon several ships as it was), and were taking increasingly sharp losses as the battle moved on

it was also, despite the ships out of action after the attack, not something that flipped the power dynamic, the US battleship force was still projected as stronger than japan's immediately after pearl (let alone a couple months later when many of those ships were repaired), because the entire fleet was in fact not in one base

the japanese thought process was absolutely incredibly wishful thinking, bordering practiced delusion, which would become somewhat of a staple

[mint quiver]

I don't know what copium IJN had

But they were literally living in the separate reality

[maiden citrus]

they were living in a reality where they practiced wargames with fixed outcomes, and if anyone spoke up about what happens if x, they were probably about to be brutally beaten once the meeting was over

[mint quiver]

I was about to say that they concluded that the wargame they had is absolute undeniable proof of reality

and that enemy is going to follow it to the bone

they should be opera writers

Actually i retract that

But still considering that they hoped that US would surrender after streak of defeats

And that they can indeed score a decisive victory in short time-span on the Pacific was probably akin to wishfull thinking

Actually was there a way that Japanese could win the Pacific war in the og Historical setting?

[maiden citrus]

alien invasion probably

[runic ermine]

Something similar to Kancolle

[mental tapir]

Sometimes, I wonder what if they just, didn't attack Pearl Harbour and tried to leave Philippines alone or something

[mint quiver]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pepexezu0MM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0cR_33PLGI

hmmm

wonder if they based the first on the second XD

[mental tapir]

Make FDR sacrifice political goodwill by trying to declare war on Japan first, defeat them in open battle Kantai Kessen style™️ and try to appeal to the isolationists after that or something

Yeah, probably still wishful thinking

[mint quiver]

There is no logical probability of winning

[opal aspen]

What if they just went north into Siberia instead of south into the pacific?

[worn parcel]

https://youtu.be/6r6vnSR0wbI

[worn parcel]

Skip to around 1:35 for the coup

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/3d_int/status/1904979560921285106

Marco Florian Geo (@3d_int)

🔥Important confirmations by RID Director, of waht we were saying fe days ago, about the new 🇮🇹✈️ Italian Air Force MPA: 🇯🇵 Kawasaki P1 has been chosen.
︀︀Integrated by 🇮🇹 made:
︀︀➡️ Combat Suite Atos (Leonardo)
︀︀➡️ MU90 Heavy Torpedo
︀︀➡️ Marte ER B2+ ASW/ASuW missile
︀︀Great machine!

Quoting Marco Florian Geo (@3d_int)
︀
Great news! 🇮🇹🇯🇵
︀︀🇮🇹 Air Force Chief of Staff Luca Goretti said to Parliament's foreign affairs committee that talks are underway with 🇯🇵 with hopes of agreeing paths towards a "common jet trainer" (M-346) and a "common patrol aircraft" (P-1 for Italy's maritime patrol).

💬 9 🔁 19 ❤️ 112 👁️ 5.3K

FxTwitter · Mar 26, 2025, 7:31 PM

[burnt scarab]

Scoop, have you heard about the coup in South Korea in 1979 ?

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/ondisasters.bsky.social/post/3llcx4k4l7k2y

AirSafety #OTD by Francisco Cunha (@ondisasters.bsky.social)

#Thread 1/24 #OTD in 1977: Tenerife Disaster. KLM Flight 4805 and Pan Am Flight 1736, two B-747 Jumbos, collide on the runway at Los Rodeos Airport (Canary Islands Spain). 583 perished: all 248 on the KLM and 335 on PAA, where 61 survived. It remains the deadliest crash in aviation history.

Bluesky · Mar 26, 2025, 11:33 PM

[eternal veldt]

The main advance into the pacific, specifically Java for its oil fields, was principally due to the freezing of assets and oil in the US circa 1934.

At that point, Japan is committed to war against Britain and the Netherlands.

The main issue is that Philippines sit in the way, which the US can and will use to choke the IJN supply lines, and thus must be neutralized, effectively also meaning declaring war on the US.

To have any chance of winning, you would need the US naval fleet - its dominant projection power - neutralized or rendered no factor. The original line of thinking was that the US would sail all the way from San Diego to the Philippines, similar to how the Russians sailed their baltic fleet all the way up to Tsushima and can be gradually weakened via "attrition battle" - Given the vast distances and openness of the Pacific, this isn't really feasible both from the fleet size and distance perspective, nor is the US willing to happily follow the Japanese thinking, as they had already devised some form of island hopping campaign.

The other option is a preemptive strike, which was also practiced by Japan against Port Arthur in the opening stages of the Russo-Japanese war and worked - by incapacitating the fleet at Pearl Harbor. That's where the bold plan came to fruition, and it worked - not necessarily in Japan's favour as the war declaration was late and the public did not take too kindly to that.

Combined with the US leveraging the anti-Japanese sentiment, there just simply is no way for a negotiated peace after Pearl Harbor.

And truth be told, besides capitulating to US demands and withdrawing from the recently conquested regions in China, there isn't much time left for the IJN - not with the announcement of the Two Ocean Navy Act in 1940 and everything spinning up to full power - To them, it was a "do it now, or be humiliated internationally and domestically by the army and the public" decision.

[narrow rover]

Don't start it

Just keep throwing men at China until some faction of the army gets pissed and coups the government

Would have been funny, "Japan denounces Japan's unchecked aggression in China"

[loud comet]

is twin and triple mounts of type 96 25mm AA gun also used at land or ship only?

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo-fCzXsTVk

[mint quiver]

Wasnt 25 their only light AA gun ?

[eternal veldt]

They still have the 13.2mm Hotchkiss around, and had a few homemade bofors from samples captured in Singapore.

Depending on who you ask, the 25 is either a light or medium.

[timber linden]

25 was just trash

[eternal veldt]

Arguably better than the single shot 37s, but ok.

And FWIW, does not come with a shitty British HACS.

[desert agate]

Sincerely, the Type 96 is not that bad

It has basically no contemporaries which makes it difficult to rate

Type 96 bashing basically comes from people comparing it to the Bofors which is pointless because the Bofors is a considerably larger shell

[mental tapir]

Comparison to Oerlikons though?

[desert agate]

The oerlikon has superior rate of fire and larger magazine capacity

Otherwise the Type 96 has better range, more HE in its rounds and on capital ships it has an FCS available

[mental tapir]

I suppose the main issue was that it was too light to be considered medium and somewhat heavy for a light AA

And also that they didn't have any medium AA; the next step up was to the 100mm Akizuki guns

How would they compare to the American 5"/38 and British 113mm though, lack of proximity fuse aside?

[cyan oriole]

collaboration does not make you an Axis power

the French didn't ever fight alongside the Germans, only repelled attacks on French-controlled territory

and those bomber raids on Gibraltar where they launched bombs into the sea

[cyan oriole]

the war was lost the second the Pearl Harbor operation was authorized

maybe if the Japanese declaration of war arrived first, and then they totally botched the operation and did 0 damage to anything, they could have gotten something out of it (assuming they replicated their successes in the south-east Indes and the Indian Ocean)

[cyan oriole]

Germany had every chance to win is likewise pure cope. Unless the Soviets marched their army into the sea, the German logistical base could never have supplied an army fighting in the USSR

[cyan oriole]

more copium, the Japanese would have captured some useless territory and then stalled due to logistical failures, just as they stalled in China

[cyan oriole]

"if Germany defeated the USSR" is the same thing as saying "if the Warsaw Uprising conquered Germany and created the Greater Polish Imperium

aka total fantasy

[cyan oriole]

yeah, Germany loses to the USSR even without Lend-Lease

since the Germans were already overheating (Speer's propaganda is bull), while the Soviets were still reeling. Eventually the Allies wear the Reich down for the Soviets to break the stalemate and march to Berlin while the West liberates France

[cyan oriole]

everything French was in great shape for the war, except the high command and the reservists in the way of the German spearhead

truly unfortunate

[spring briar]

Let me find the exact reservists

[cyan oriole]

it makes sense, Russia is usually isolated, so they have to make everything themselves

[spring briar]

You had around 9000 germans per kilometer of frontage compared to 2000 french
On the Ardennes

[cyan oriole]

although of course there are exceptions, like the period where everything was basically mimicking Italian designs, with some modifications

[cyan oriole]

that's incredibly impressive

[spring briar]

Look at this

[cyan oriole]

people always cite the 1940 campaign as some sort of exemplification of German brilliance, but in reality the only thing exemplified was the bungling and incompetence of the French commanders, who squandered their superior forces

[spring briar]

Look at the thin line of frenchmen compared to the german wall

1st and 3rd french army on the other hand were too slow to react

[cyan oriole]

I believe it was 1/4th the national budget put into the Bolshoy Flot

for Soyuzes blown up on the docks, very sad

[cyan oriole]

no

simple as

[cyan oriole]

yeah the 25/60 is fine as light AA, the reason it gets such a bad rap is because Japan tried to use it as medium AA when that role is usually filled by 37/40mm guns

so the way the IJN used it, it was awful, but the way the French used their (original) version was fine

although the French version was probably better even before it entered service in 1940 (aka back when the IJN copied it in like 1936)

[remote monolith]

Yeah the best French forces were deployed in Benelux along with the BEF

[spring briar]

Very unfortunate situation

[vocal coral]

Aeee 3 pings...

[spring briar]

The lack of air spotting also missed the slowly advancing German columns in the ardennes

[cyan oriole]

French generals on their way to tell their air support to not do anything, and then to blame the lack of air cover when they lose

[spring briar]

[cyan oriole]

this is what peak war-waging looks like

those guys would be great world of warhips players

"shit team no support"

although, methodical battle wasn't necessarily a flawed "general doctrine"

just it was carried out poorly, and in the end the pitiful forces that opposed the German advance were not equipped to carry out the doctrine anyways

[spring briar]

Germany when France somehow manages to get the 1st and 3rd armée in position at the Ardennes fast enough

[cyan oriole]

now imagine if the French had sent 3 soldiers to attack the Germans during the September campaign

but no, we have to mobilize industrial workers and technical specialists

and then spend months fixing that

of course, the British share the blame for that failure

[narrow rover]

Tbf, the Kwantung army did keep up a decent fight until they were told to stand down
At which point resistance crumbled

[burnt scarab]

Richelieu, fun fact. They use the Ardens forest to by pass the Maginot Line

[rapid cairn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tmPO63U3Wc

Never saw this footage before

pretty cool to see it colored too

[runic ermine]

They did in anti partisan operations and in North Africa

[spring briar]

What do you think I posted

[burnt scarab]

Just saw a cat bump into a wall Richelieu

Thank you Kyle

[cyan oriole]

https://tenor.com/view/true-feel-that-thats-true-gif-7410050725709839510

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWyaXL6Ygqo

[tacit sable]

200 miles at nightfall, taken within a day ♪

[mint quiver]

You cannot ignore the impact the Land-lease brought to the soviet offensive capabilities

Secondary factor is also that thanks to this they could opt to produce more warfighting equipment to replace their losses

Third that at the onset of the war Soviet Equipment was of subpar quality to what allies have brought to them

because people only focus on Tanks,Aircraft,Infantry equipment etc.

but they ignore radios,logistics,machinery and material that is being used to produce such machines

[remote monolith]

the most neutral take right now is that the conflict would likely end in a stalemate without LL

[mint quiver]

Yes the Soviets would barerly have any offensive capabilities without Land-Lease for a long period

[remote monolith]

the Soviets would be hard-pressed to do large mechanized campaigns and liberate their western lands, but the Germans also already so badly mauled by Dec 1941 they were only able to advance in one direction instead of three afterwards

[mint quiver]

So did the Soviets

[remote monolith]

my point exactly

[mint quiver]

Secondary we cannot judge the impact it had in 1941 and 1942 when Soviet were at their worst

Third if Germans were allowed to breaktrough to Baku it would solve most of their most pressing concerns

[remote monolith]

I'm not sure if a breakthrough to Baku would have solved their problems tbh, the Allies and the Soviets were on standby to wreck any oil processing facilities there, and the distance required to defend, maintain and transport the oils would be backbreacking for German logistics

[mint quiver]

Germans would probably majority of their war effort on holding onto Baku

Secondary what would be the impact on Turkey?

[remote monolith]

Turkey likely will not join any side as long as Inonu was alive

its absolutely not prepared for another conflict as big as WWII

[mint quiver]

Yeah but Germans would need to transport the fuel thru the black sea

so the control of the Bosphorus would be very important for Germans

as well as Allies

[opal aspen]

Oh yea, what if the Japanese went north instead of south?

[mint quiver]

They would still get attacked by the US

[remote monolith]

so still the same thing as OTL in that Turkey simply juggles both sides and doesn't interfere

[mint quiver]

They would probably sign some treaty with USSR

Also US was responsible for 90% of their oil imports

[opal aspen]

Like into the ussr instead of going everywhere but the ussr

[mint quiver]

and lack of oil could literally strangle their war machine

[remote monolith]

the Kwantung Army dies in the Far East

seriously logistics there sucks ass now and it sucks ass then

[mint quiver]

They would need large mechanized formations for USSR

again fuel

[opal aspen]

So they would be even less troublesome to the soviets than the west....

[remote monolith]

the Soviets maintained a significant garrison in the Far East throughout the war in the event of a Japanese attack, so they wouldn't be surprised

[mint quiver]

Its generally going to be the same story

if US cuts delivery of the oil

they are gone and done

It was the same for Germans and no diffrent to Japanese

[remote monolith]

and in this timeline, even worse off because then the bulk of their forces would be stuck in Siberia with less than 6 months worth of oil and ill-prepared to start making grabs into the south

[mint quiver]

I mean in this case i would think that the main buildup would be in the Army not the navy

so the Kwantung army would be much stronger

but again same constrains

We would see much more Japanese armored designs in the field than we saw IRL

Army would had primacy or total dominance over the IJA

but US is still the deciding factor in such war

And if Roosevelt is stil in power then it would be unlikely that US would be passive

Alternative is that USSR allied with Germany

[remote monolith]

I mean much stronger is a strong word here, the Japanese would still be highly constrained in technical and manufactory capabilities, they couldn't just switch from naval to ground-majorly production in 2 short years

[mint quiver]

I mean some expertise would def be transferable

secondary aid from Germans

etc

Because actually Soviets were quite eager to Ally themselves with Germany after Molotov Ribentropp

[remote monolith]

still, technical limitations, they simply did not have the resources or industry to build up much land-based force

[opal aspen]

Couldn't the Reich just butrush technical stuff to make oil outa coal and stuff?

[mint quiver]

It would never be enough

[remote monolith]

its not that easy

they did try, but its horrifically inefficient

[mint quiver]

It was a drop in the sea of needs

Only way the war could gone diffrently if the USSR-German alliance would come into fruition

but that again was impossible with Hitler

[opal aspen]

Would the Japanese have turned out better if they simply sat on the sidelines of ww2?

[remote monolith]

obviously, but that would need the Japanese to not be, well, Japanese

[mint quiver]

exactly

[remote monolith]

which means you need to change their entire history from the 1920s onward so that they didn't get brainrotted into extreme militarism

[mint quiver]

Japanese were very stubborn

[opal aspen]

Or ya know, didn't drag the us into ww2

[mint quiver]

The US would still join regardless

[remote monolith]

impossible with OTL Japanese

the US would inevitably enter

[vocal coral]

Good evening guys

[remote monolith]

there's also the problem of Japan already considering a war with the US for a long time by WWII

its been long in the considerations that they would clash with the US for the Pacific

[mint quiver]

One thing you could not expect IJN to have is a unbiased logical thinking

They were rolling the dice on the fact the US would surrender after taking enough losses

[opal aspen]

Lol, read only a SINGLE guy thought Japan would or could loose to america

[vocal coral]

The Japanese could have attacked the USSR, but Soviet intelligence and delegations played a huge role in this, doing everything possible to make the Japanese treat this as a bloody adventure

[mint quiver]

Secondary that one thing that Axis had in common was lackluster intelligence services

[mint quiver]

They were expecting it to be a short foray

[opal aspen]

Yea

[mint quiver]

plus they got emboldened in 1941 and 1942

[opal aspen]

One guy warned they only had 6 months before being chased back to tokyo

[mint quiver]

which then caused them to stagante quite heavily

[vocal coral]

and again, the Japanese essentially destroyed Britain and the Commonwealth in the Pacific Ocean, which is easier for the Japanese to do, a huge multimillion-army invasion of the USSR or island hopping and fleet skirmishes with the United States? ?

[opal aspen]

They then got that one guy to plan pearl harbor, then midway, then be shot down

[mint quiver]

It was normal for them

There was no reason in there

at this point they were eating sweet fruits of victory already

[opal aspen]

Lol

[mint quiver]

They considered westerners to be inferior to them in general

especially fighting spirit

they thought that west will just collapse after enough beating

And again thanks to the 1941 they had really hard time adapting to reality

their warplans basically considered US just doing what they want

[remote monolith]

le coreographed slaughter

[opal aspen]

And then they blew up the American stuff, for the Americans to do what they wanted them to do

Woops

[mint quiver]

They did not consider the US industry tho

[opal aspen]

And that

One guy said they had 6 months

They didn't listen, and got him to plan pearl harbor

[mint quiver]

Yamamoto was quite aware that they do not have much chances of victory

But the leadership did not really want to listen to him

[opal aspen]

Then there was the American plan which from what I read was to just butrush the bb's to the Philippines and bully the Japanese from there if war broke out

[vocal coral]

The Japanese had a lot of chances, but they didn't plan it well, that's all

[mint quiver]

It does not matter because by the time the chance is gone

it disaapears

secondary

US would still be able to replenish the losses

at most war would be prolonged

[vocal coral]

They had their chances before the Battle of Midway

[opal aspen]

Weren't there bbs only limited by the Panama canal?

[vocal coral]

The loss of the entire carrier group was already irreparable for Japan

[mint quiver]

BBs by 1942-43 lost their primacy

they were AA escorts for the carriers by the end

Especially on the Pacific

[remote monolith]

basically as soon as US production capacities come online Japan is done for, it doesn't matter if the entire Pacific Fleet got lost or crippled at PH, by late 42 Japan would already have to contend with an entire replacement fleet

by 43 they're grossly outnumbered

[opal aspen]

Yea

[mint quiver]

One thing that anyone always underestimates when talking about US impact on WW2

is their sheer production capability

[vocal coral]

The United States would most likely have made concessions if it had suffered a NORMAL defeat at Pearl Harbor and then at Midway, but the Japanese planned both attacks badly, so there were no defeats

[opal aspen]

Read somewhere some axis spy saw a big boy chugging along, then the spies higher ups just wrote of the big boy due to its size

[vocal coral]

In fact, Japan only demanded the Philippines and a couple of islands, not such a big loss

[remote monolith]

not really no, the outrage Pearl Harbor generated a MASSIVE outrage from the public

there's very little way the US would just hand over the Philippines

[mint quiver]

US basically produced aircraft comparable to both USSR and UK combined

[opal aspen]

If the Japanese just waited till the US just left the Philippines

[mint quiver]

they were the logistic backbone of the allies

[remote monolith]

we're talking about nearly everyone in the US saying yes to a war against Japan overnight

[vocal coral]

but the Japanese did not bomb the repair docks, did not establish supplies of resources from Malaysia and Indochina, and brought the aircraft carrier group forward in the general battle and completely lost it

[mint quiver]

they had no chance

[opal aspen]

Plus forgot to ya know train the next group off the experience of the first group.

[vocal coral]

If the Japanese had been able to inflict huge damage to the Pacific Fleet, the United States could have simply sat down at the negotiating table, considering that the war with Japan was too expensive and the public was outraged by the defeats

This was the calculation of the whole of Japan

[remote monolith]

yeah and that's not based on reality

the US public wouldn't simply get cowed even if that's the case

[opal aspen]

Plus even if Japan went f it and invaded the US mainland, well there's a gun behind every blade of grass

[remote monolith]

that's even less feasible after you realize how hard doing a naval landing is

[vocal coral]

Well, it worked during the Vietnam War

[mint quiver]

Logistics would be impossible

[remote monolith]

not apple to apple comparison

[mint quiver]

Yeah but Vietnam war wasnt a defensive war

[opal aspen]

And that, trusting they weren't thrown back into the sea almost immediately after landing

[mint quiver]

It was unpopular

and it lasted long ass time

[remote monolith]

Vietnam was a long, drawn conflict that didn't look like a war of survival for the US

[mint quiver]

Afghan would be more comparable to Vietnam

But Pacific war 100% isnt

Japs also had a nasty habit of comiting a fuck and ton of warcrimes everywhere they went

which did not help out to calm the American public

[vocal coral]

But society is getting tired of the war anyway. If the Japanese had clearly stated that we just want, for example, the Philippines and the United States to stay out of the Pacific Ocean, society might want to make concessions

[mint quiver]

The Americans really had a hardon for war by that point

[remote monolith]

uuu why would they be tired of war after just a single attack

that didn't even take out that many American assets

[mint quiver]

The American society was universally supportive of the war

There was no way they could just surrender

[remote monolith]

even for Tsarist Russia it took about a year of war and a ginormous ass revolution for Nicholas to call it quits

[mint quiver]

Plus

Also look what it took to take down Germany

The frontwide collapse of their army didnt make em surrender

[vocal coral]

Well, it was aimed at the elite, like look, it's not worth it. It's just that at the beginning the war was not total or aimed at destroying the population, for example

[mint quiver]

For the Americans it was stab in the back

[remote monolith]

its....not? Pearl harbor literally killed thousands of average Americans

[mint quiver]

It was a humiliation for them

that needed to be repaid in blood

[remote monolith]

if more people died then public would have been even more pissed

[mint quiver]

It brought previously fragmented US society

[vocal coral]

Well, the Germans understood what awaited them for the genocide of the Soviet people, so they fought the Red army to the last, which cannot be said about the western front, for example

[mint quiver]

It overnight made whole US essentially go aye aye lets go to war

So no it would not made US surrender

if they would lose more

they would be more pissed

The Japanese would need to perform flawlessly at the Pacific

in order to win something from this

[remote monolith]

they would need the IJN to just magically sink at least half a dozen entire fleets repeatedly

[mint quiver]

took most of the American possesions

they then could win

but it was impossible

because that would require Americans to be bunch of lobotomized monkeys

[vocal coral]

well.. it's just a couple of thousand people, but the Japanese did not wage any deliberate genocide at the BEGINNING of the war, the war between the United States and Japan seems to me more like a warning to Americans not to go into the Pacific Ocean, rather than some kind of ideological war, again, just at the beginning

[mint quiver]

The problem is that US public took it badly

like very badly

[vocal coral]

[remote monolith]

look, the fucking Russians didn't just keel over and surrender to Japan after Port Arthur got struck, there's little reason why the US would just keel over

and Russia was a lot less stable

[mint quiver]

The moment the US took their shit togheter

they just steamrolled hem

[remote monolith]

like it doesn't need an ideological war to galvanize the public into supporting a long war

[mint quiver]

Basic idea is

That as long as you are the Attacker

[vocal coral]

well, Russia literally lost in 2 battles on land and one at sea, and this has already forced the Russian elite to tell the tsar that the war is pointless, it seems to me the Japanese really wanted to repeat the same scenario with the Americans

[mint quiver]

you have to deal with the fact that your enemy is not very likely to back down

[remote monolith]

no they didn't lost after 2 battles what the hell

[mint quiver]

Bro on the sea Russian navy got bascially anihilated

[remote monolith]

they literally clashed repeatedly

[vocal coral]

Yes

[remote monolith]

there were multiple battles around the Yalu and Port Arthur

the Pacific Fleet tried multiple times to break out and was beaten mostly because they got super unlucky and their 2 best commanders got sniped'

it was a massive slog that the Japanese couldn't afford

[mint quiver]

The Russians also didnt pursue because logistics would be very difficult to handle

In the Pacific Americans probably were much aware that they can easily win prolonged war

[remote monolith]

logistics, war weariness and also the bigass Revolution that nearly ended with the Tsar getting dragged and shot in the streets

[mint quiver]

Russians are only good at war if you push them to the brink

[remote monolith]

of course then he also completely fumbled the resolution of that one and arguably directly catalyzed the much more violent one about 12 years down the line

[opal aspen]

Didn't the russians send a fleet that got pumbled, a 2nd fleet that almost dragged the British into the war, then got pumbled then a 3rd fleet that got beaten as well

[mint quiver]

Russians always have problem called nepotism and widespread corruption

[remote monolith]

only one

[vocal coral]

The Russians still had the Black Sea and Baltic fleets, but it was trivial to move them for a long time for a new battle. The Russians just decided that the war wasn't worth it and signed the peace, that's all. That's why I say that the Japanese 100% wanted to repeat the same thing with the US

[remote monolith]

the 2nd Pacific Squadron aka whatever they could cobble from the Black and Baltic Squadron

[mint quiver]

Problem is that the way then would need to go is quite long

[remote monolith]

I mean they literally did sent both of those fleets, that literally WAS the Rozhestvensky fleet

his fleet was, quite literally, the only good parts that they could reliably send

[mint quiver]

They were completly exhausted after the voyage

and the voyage was shit as well

[opal aspen]

Didn't they send the Baltic fleet, go screw it, and sent everything that floated?

[remote monolith]

Rozhestvensky had a nervous breakdown about midway through the voyage

probably realizing he's screwed from the get go

[mint quiver]

Yep

[vocal coral]

they literally made a trip around the world, during which half of the ships returned back to St. Petersburg and the Black Sea

[opal aspen]

After bringing back a icebreaker due to no ice by the equator

[mint quiver]

Exactly

[vocal coral]

How long did they sail ? Half a year ?

[mint quiver]

Dont remember but by the time they arrived they were essentially a bunch of ghosts

[opal aspen]

Found a video bout that mess

[mint quiver]

Idk about the ground combat in that war

but on the basis of how Russian army does in the war at the start

it probably didnt go well

[opal aspen]

Yea, everyone got high on opium down in Africa

[vocal coral]

In general, the Russians still have a military genius in this war, this is the defense of Port Arthur itself

[opal aspen]

The kamatchca kept reporting phantom torpedo boats all the way

[mint quiver]

The problem is that Russians usually have one thing go well then they fuck up the other ten

[opal aspen]

Didn't they kill there whole pacific chain of command in one go due to a faulty plane that one time

[vocal coral]

to defend with 20 thousand against 150, with losses of 1 to 10, you need to try, while constantly counter-attacking

[remote monolith]

rapidly overwhelmed in Manchuria proper, but at the Siege itself they gave a pretty good fight

there's a reason that Port Arthur held out for a long time

[vocal coral]

There was a very cool commander there

[remote monolith]

Japan basically couldn't afford storming the ports until the Russian Navy was neutralized

[mint quiver]

Generally in terms of Russian war i always think of 1941 and 2022

[vocal coral]

Yes

Based

[mint quiver]

You need to beat Russian to a pulp before he learns

Ahhh i remember the comedy when whe UKR war started

[vocal coral]

Russia simply cannot fight normally under capitalism, unfortunately, there is no strong leader yet, the army is a pathetic structure ...

[mint quiver]

It wasnt really better during Soviet times

[vocal coral]

Tsarist Russia has shown this perfectly, and so has modern Russia

[mint quiver]

They still had Army functioning of corruption

and nepotism

during USSR period

but then we didnt had any major war by then

and probably considerable amount of forces were actually decent

[mint quiver]

What do you mean mr.Monkey Man

[vocal coral]

In Soviet times, the USSR surrendered all industrial regions, lost 5 million people in encirclement, and then regrouped and pushed the Germans back to Poland. During the time of tsarist Russia, the Germans did not go further than Poland, but the soldiers did not even have boots

And Germany had a Russian front as SECONDARY

In ww1

Someone did the Bagration operation and the Manzhchur operation, and someone did the Brusilovsky breakthrough and took a couple of villages in Prussia

I think there is a difference

[remote monolith]

not sure what you're trying to say here

[vocal coral]

It's just that the economy of tsarist Russia, its organization, its ability to withstand anything, was terrible

[mint quiver]

Nah i meant that the Russians do have strong leader

mr monkey man

[vocal coral]

I just want to say that in Soviet times, the organization of the army and the state was much higher than in tsarist times, or even modern Russia

[mint quiver]

The Russians still took huge casualities even at their peak

Mainly because of their doctrine

[vocal coral]

and to claim that the general problems of the Russian army were as severe in Soviet times as in tsarist times is quite erroneous

[vocal coral]

Well, there were a lot of problems at the beginning of the war, mainly with the organization of tank corps

as well as the division command system

in general, there is a very good video about the Soviet army and the causes of defeat in the early years

https://youtu.be/sOlTX9uxUtM

5 hours but

[mint quiver]

Nah it was during entire period of the war

[vocal coral]

for a brief introduction to the general provisions, it is very good

[mint quiver]

Mainly because Soviet doctrines are inflexible as hell

and even when they are pushing well defended enemy stronghold they still need to push

unless they get an order to retreat

[vocal coral]

Not really, she was very adaptive depending on the commander and the army

[vocal coral]

She or it...

[mint quiver]

Ok their doctrine does not allow for independent though on the part of the lets say squad level

etc

So if they find themselves in a situation in which they cannot win

they still cannot act upon their judgement unless they get an order from higher command chain

compared to the western doctrines

which cause that if in case they attack a position which is defended by much stronger force than expected

they cannot just retreat out of there

third the whole soviet doctrine was based on mathematics

so if our force is stronger than enemy by %

then by logic we should be able to breaktrough

however the problem is when you input the false data in the system

which was quite common in the UKR invasion

and i really doubt it was much diffrent during any other period it was used

because one bad commander was all it took to take disproportionate amount of losses

And it probably was one of reasons why the Soviets took large amount of casualities even in 1944

compared to the enemy

Especially if you compare it to the Western front

[vocal coral]

well, actually they could, but again it depended on the armies and the commanders, for example, Rokossovsky greatly encouraged the junior command staff for acting on the situation, without orders from above, and somewhere there was no such thing. You're right that the Soviet doctrine is very focused on the high command and precisely its calculation of what is happening, but for example, look at the history of the Vistula-Oder offensive, and how even individual battalions acted there, I wouldn't call it "unquestioning submission and lack of flexibility of congratulations," or the Manchurian operation, the same thing

the initiative on the battlefield comes from trained sergeants

what were the huge problems in the USSR before 43

It is often this shortage that explains the low mobility of brigades and divisions at the beginning of the war, for example, or in the middle

[mint quiver]

Welp the probleme here is

that good commander was indeed good

but when you had a bad one

then it was terrible

[remote monolith]

admittedly the Western Front was significantly less intense and the Allied for the most part faced a more mauled enemy in France

[vocal coral]

just understand that the USSR army has increased from 900,000 to 6 million in 1.5 years

Imagine how many officers, artillery mans, equipment specialists, and sergeants had to be trained

For example, Germany did not face this problem, because according to Versailles, the German army consisted of 90k people, who by the beginning of 1933 were ALL officers and sergeants, which allowed the Germans to train 2 million people without losing the quality of training

[mint quiver]

Well it still does not make their doctrine look any better

Because while it works with good commanders but it becomes dysfunctional with bad ones

[vocal coral]

As a result, only the USSR was able to conduct large-scale strike operations focused on the initiative of the junior staff and rapid breakthroughs, the interaction of aviation with tank attack wedges. In conditions of equal enemy forces

[mint quiver]

And another thing that welp you still had the issue of nepotism

that there were people put in charge who werent cut for generals

but had good standing with Stalin

[vocal coral]

+-

an example of what you have explained is for example meat boron

[mint quiver]

But the torch goes to modern Russian army

how bad can it get

They really were something else

[vocal coral]

where an entire army was literally destroyed in the offensive, because again, there were few trained officers then and decisions were made from above, as you described

It was 1942

but then a large-scale restructuring of the army began

[vocal coral]

Oh modern Russian doctrine

[mint quiver]

Its still Soviet

[vocal coral]

This has little to do even with the late Soviet era

[mint quiver]

Modern Russian doctrine is a modernised Deep Battle

i mean whole Russian army is essentially a Soviet remnant

if you look at it closely

but much more dysfunctional

crippled even

[vocal coral]

No, that's not true. Now the Russian Federation's doctrine has become more "Police-like" after the war in Chechnya, or rather, it has become completely so. Have you ever heard of a distorted network-centric war ?

To begin with, the late Soviet doctrine of deep battle focused on the divisional structure, while the modern Russian one focused on the brigade-battalion structure

And secondly, it's a TERRIBLE accounting of all equipment and bureaucracy

In Soviet doctrine, you didn't have to report to the Ministry of Defense on the use of lancets or ATGMs

[mint quiver]

The problem is that they had/have doctrine that was based upon accurate relay of information

And from what i remember

[vocal coral]

Yes it is true

[mint quiver]

Sometimes they reported up to three times that enemy position was destroyed

same position

[vocal coral]

The modern Russian army is so bureaucratic because the war in Syria and Chechnya GREATLY influenced it, for example, in Syria, in order to use some kind of weapons, you had to ask permission from the command so as not to accidentally kill civilians/allies/other troops there

[mint quiver]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snUfpagHbMY&t=11s

this was a peak

[vocal coral]

therefore, for example, at the beginning of the invasion of Ukraine, the Russians did not behave at all as if it were a full-scale war

[vocal coral]

Yes

[mint quiver]

The fact they got promoted because of the ordeal speak volumes

[vocal coral]

It's more like a police operation. They were afraid to shoot again, they didn't really touch civilians

[mint quiver]

Huh where

what

[cyan oriole]

they capture some useless land, stall, and then eventually run out of resources due to the embargo and collaspe

if the US doesn't smash them first

[vocal coral]

Now the army has a system in place for commanders, who have taken more territories and have been promoted. How you got them, how much you lost, nobody cares

[cyan oriole]

then you get another funny WW1 scenario where Japan is in the Allies again and tries to get as many prizes as possible

[mint quiver]

This

Yep they would jump on that ship instantly

[vocal coral]

watch the videos of the Russian troops entering and read the memories of the soldiers themselves, it was literally "Don't shoot at anyone, just go into position and that's it", the culmination of this was the "storming" of Kharkov

[mint quiver]

Huh i remember BTRs blasting civies in Kiev

[vocal coral]

when the special forces and special operations forces had their own command, the Airborne forces had their own, and the motorized infantry had their own

[vocal coral]

Yeeeah because it's vdv

Not "Army"

[cyan oriole]

is this the narrative within Russia? or is this verified by another source?

it could always be a propaganda video for example

[vocal coral]

the beginning of the invasion is generally a clowning of the entire Russian General Staff, except perhaps for aviatio

[cyan oriole]

why did Adolf not rush the synthetic oil tech tree? was he stupid?

[mint quiver]

Nah bro he should rush fighters 2s in 1939

[cyan oriole]

even Yamamoto was a gambler, yeah

[mint quiver]

YAMATO DAMASHI!

[cyan oriole]

I do wonder if Yamamoto really did plan to secure victories over the Americans so he could pull off a coup against the army

that was one of the speculations for his plans after Midway (if it had worked)

[vocal coral]

well, from something well-known, I recall a video where the entire column of tigers stopped because of one Ukrainian civilian who refused to let them through and started yelling, as a result, the military tried to convince him that he needed to leave, and he eventually left after 15 minutes, it was literally a police operation, the war looks a little different

[cyan oriole]

I doubt the Americans would be eager to negotiate with the man behind the Pearl Harbor attack, though

[mint quiver]

Then i remember a fuckton of other videos

that were opposite of that

third was the goofy ass shit of considering it a short foray

[cyan oriole]

Yamamoto was brilliant and wise, but he also had a "let's just do it and see what happens" mentality sometimes

[mint quiver]

While graciously training UKR army for couple of years

[cyan oriole]

which is what caused the Pearl Harbor and Midway disasters