history

[fierce sparrow]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/368244534578118658/1086722679190593758/BurningMurmory.gif

[mental tapir]

Video private?

[subtle prawn]

OP said it was because of the questionable sponsor, will reupload at a later time

[mental tapir]

Oof

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1814064332247904348

[autumn sorrel]

Did they crown the new guy tho?

[runic ermine]

@desert agate I need some help with comparing the Owen gun to other submachine guns that it went up against in WW2 and Vietnam

Like how did it compare to the MAB-38, the MP-40, the Type-100 etc

[desert agate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I2Scv5IYD8&ab_channel=hit-and-missproductions

[runic ermine]

Thanks

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwNSx0Q4AfM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1814376866360254544

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1940, Congress passed the Vinson-Walsh "Two-Ocean Navy" Act which increased the size of the U.S. Navy by 70%. It was the largest naval procurement bill in U.S. history, adding 18 carriers, 7 battleships, 33 cruisers, 115 destroyers, 43 subs and 15k aircraft to the fleet.

Twitter · Jul 19, 2024, 7:08 PM

[frozen kestrel]

Just found this photo on Twitter. Any idea what cruiser this turret belonged to? Poster says this photo was taken at the Zidell breakers yard in Portland, sometime during the 70s

[eternal veldt]

Baltimore herself.

[frozen kestrel]

damn...

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1814758178669928471

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1969, Apollo 11 astronauts Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin became the first men to land on the moon. Prior to becoming an astronaut, Armstrong had been a Navy F9F-2B Panther pilot who flew 78 combat missions over Korea.
#NationalMoonDay

Twitter · Jul 20, 2024, 8:24 PM

[junior jacinth]

https://youtu.be/Mwy_vBs3j5A?si=dMosS1MFggAbFPkw

[fierce sparrow]

https://fxtwitter.com/KrypTanko/status/1814727268125577222

[manic latch]

Object 279: Just move with your own power chief

[maiden citrus]

so long based casemate

[shrewd pecan]

to be fair T28 was sitting out in a bush for like several decades after being lost

though it is insane object 279 is running

[autumn sorrel]

Most peaceful comments section ever

[desert agate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoEcNprxhyA&ab_channel=NotAPoundForAirToGround

[junior jacinth]

https://youtu.be/dHia2Y8KgPY?si=HbfCR5tZ3qSpCeL_

[manic latch]

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/sr-71-pilot-recalls-when-a-soviet-mig-23-pilot-asked-him-to-bring-his-blackbird-at-vladivostok-as-a-gesture-of-peaceful-relationship-he-answered-him-to-forward-his-request-to-us-state-department/amp/

Mig-23: Gib Sr-71 Fren

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/BAESystemsplc/status/1815131172931793120

BAE Systems (@BAESystemsplc) on X

#BreakingNews - The three nations of the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) – UK, Italy and Japan – are unveiling a new concept model of the next generation combat aircraft at @FIAFarnborough, which opens its doors at 10:00am tomorrow.

Discover more ✈️ https://t.co/DKrSm0NPIb

Twitter · Jul 21, 2024, 9:06 PM

[timber linden]

I thought they were all in the f35

[subtle prawn]

The UK only uses the F-35B on their aircraft carriers

[shrewd pecan]

No

RAFs buying a huge number

There buying 134 F-35Bs

Far more than what both QEs can handle

[subtle prawn]

Huh, for some reason I thought they only used them on their carriers

[shrewd pecan]

I mean it’s confusing since it’s a all B fleet

But makes sense considering past RAF experience with the harrier for land use

[earnest plinth]

Not sure if I can post this here

[terse mesa]

This is the right place. Damn, you should find out the right way to preserve that piece of history.

[earnest plinth]

It was a gift from someone who served in the Vietnam war

He gave me some pictures too

[visual rover]

https://youtu.be/NHdYgCeOwoQ?si=y2mNCo2jQtep7W5w

[earnest plinth]

Some things in it

[grave ravine]

It's far from clear that they will actually make the full buy, the MoD has gone back and forth on this a bunch

[shrewd pecan]

its gone from like 74-134

regardless not all airframes are going to carrier aviation

[grave ravine]

Yeah

[shrewd pecan]

suppose if both QEs had their full fighter compliment it would be 72 total but I doubt both are gonna be operational at the sametime nor do I think they'd have the full airwing even if both are operational

[grave ravine]

I think the RN wants to have the ability to do so, even if they don't usually

Plus you need some for the training squadrons and what not

[shrewd pecan]

yeah

[grave ravine]

But if they do actually go for the 138 plane buy they definitely would have some land based squadrons

[shrewd pecan]

I mean even if its a 100 plane buy

that's still a land squadron

[grave ravine]

Either way though, Typhoon is the RAF's primary land based type, and that's what Tempest is supposed to replace

[ivory ridge]

The F35s for Italy and the UK are mostly replacements for decommissioned/soon to be decommissioned platforms, never all in

Mostly Tornado and Harrier, which the UK already decommissioned and Italy will in the near future

The gcap will start replacing the Eurofighters

[timber linden]

The us should never got rid if the f22. Put us a whole generation behind in air superiority. We haven't learned the lessons of Vietnam.

Yes I know there are like 6 f22 still around but not abbadon the project

[mental tapir]

Nahh, F-35 is still a sufficiently good substitute, and besides, I think it's better to direct resources to developing and finishing NGAD

[runic ermine]

Same with Canada

[ivory ridge]

Yeah I was mostly talking about the gcap countries

Tho I guess what I said wasn't really clear

[grave ravine]

If by 6 you mean 183 then sure

[ivory ridge]

What I meant is that the gcap countries (and Germany) are "special" when it comes to the F-35 because for those countries it's mostly a stop gap before the next generation, unlike other countries nearly completely replacing their air forces with F-35s

Of course this is not including the US which just has all the planes

[grave ravine]

Like the F-22 buy probably shouldn't have been slashed (and they also should have allowed export to Japan), but the US still has more F-22s than most countries have planes

[visual rover]

History of ships using name Shimakaze
IJN Shimakaze (1920) 1920-1940
IJN Shimakaze (1942) 1942-1944
JS Shimakaze (DDG-172/TV-3521) 1988-now
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_destroyer_Shimakaze

[desert agate]

i've seen the JS Shimakaze

we happened to be in Portsmouth at the same time

[manic latch]

That's the thing tho

They choose lazy option and choose to buy Fifth gen instead making their own

This aircraft program is for making Sixth gen

If they fail to make it, they have to buy it from US again or smh in future

Which should kill their fighter industry

[runic ermine]

Is the SU-57 5th or 6th gen?

I think it's 5th

[manic latch]

Why are you like this

[runic ermine]

It's a question

[manic latch]

Sixth gen doesn't even exist yet

And Su-57 is borderline Fifth gen because she makes some choices that hurt her stealth features

[runic ermine]

That's why I said I think it's 5th but I wasn't 100% sure

[manic latch]

Call Su-57 as uhh 4.9 gen smh

[runic ermine]

Ah yes, Russian engineering

[manic latch]

Russia/Soviets didn't valued stealth much as US did

Mig 1.44 is another example

She was a answer to F-22 but didn't incorpo stealth much as her

[barren galleon]

cant lie though those soviet/russian fighters look beautiful

[chilly osprey]

Not really? Canada is all-in to replace their F-18's with F-35's. They don't run a mixed fleet

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWw7posYab8

[runic ermine]

I said that

[runic ermine]

I like her sister more. She's actually still in service

[chilly osprey]

Hmm, maybe I was reading the comment chain wrong then, because I though we were speaking on contrast to Italy and the UK where F-35 replaced Tornado, Harrier, and AMX, but complements rather than replaces Typhoon.

[runic ermine]

I mean Canada is set to operate 88 of them which would be the 3rd most behind the US and Japan

Unless to UK goes with their large order

[chilly osprey]

Fourth, after Italy (90)

[runic ermine]

Wait Italy is getting 90? Nice

[chilly osprey]

yes

60x F-35A for the Air Force
15x F-35B for the Air Force
15x F-35B for the Navy

This is now many months outdated but should reflect earlier in the year for both current planned procurement against delivered aircraft;

[shrewd pecan]

I think

Germany is buying more than initially planned

[grave ravine]

the UK also might be going back to the 138 buy, as mentioned earlier by Tato

[chilly osprey]

138 has always been the stated ambition

But at present 74 is what has been ordered

I prefer to err towards the 'add it when it's actually concrete'.

Ex, the Italian Air Force has said they would like to restore their buys to the original amount (109 vs 75), but that's not really gone anywhere.

And tbh unless the UK raises its defense spending by much more than their current target, I would expect further F-35 orders to be squeezed out between Typhoon upgrades and GCAP investment and procurement (given the aggressive timeline of the latter).

[strange grove]

So what do you folks think the odds are that Monarch would have mounted the Admiralty Fire Control Table Mark VII like the completed KGV class?

[subtle prawn]

Blame the peace dividend for the F-22 order being cut down then

[shrewd pecan]

there's nearly 200 F-22s

and they literally had

nothing to fight to justify the 750 number

F-22 numbers aren't the thing that made us lag behind its the delay in procuring new air to air missiles

[wintry moat]

Considering Monarch is a prelimary design for KGV

if they had chosen to build them

they most definitely would have them

[eternal veldt]

Mongrel is just a clone DoY with fake guns clapped on masquerading as 15C

Burn her to the waterline

[autumn sorrel]

Easy fix, slap a SM6 on anything that can carry it

[runic ermine]

https://youtu.be/IfTwWnODvZk?si=078TUK9O5EansNWO

Very interesting

[grave ravine]

There absolutely was justification for the 750 number, we are now scrambling to replace F-15C for real this time, in the long run it's cost the USAF money and capability

[subtle prawn]

Last I heard about the NGAD program, it's having funding issues

[ivory ridge]

what isnt

[grave ravine]

Yeah, at the end of the day Sentinel takes priority

[subtle prawn]

Also, isn't the F-15EX replacing the F-15C for the ANG units at the very least?

[shrewd pecan]

it is

[shrewd pecan]

F-22 was in the timeframe of no one but the US having a viable fifth gen platform, the only potential conventional fight was against North Korea and the US already had around 200 of them by the time production was cancelled

the US was additionally bogged down in two guerilla wars where the F-22 wasn't gonna be all that much more useful than the other aircraft in inventory

I don't really see any logical reason to continue production unless you go at it entirely with hindsight

F-35 was additionally right around the corner

on top of that continuing F-22 procurement opens up the nightmare hole that is F-22 modernizations

it took nearly 20 years just to integrate a HMD and AIM-9X on the 22

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, interesting. What was US threat assessment of China after the Cold War ended? I mean I understand back then China was pretty lagging behind even by USSR standards but with the way how fast they adapted, steal and copy technology, they would have grown into an adversary like we see right now.

[supple sandal]

Chat is this real

[chilly osprey]

The awareness of China being there as a potential future issue was present but was not so severe, and really did not start having an impact until the late 2000s.

It has to be remembered, though, that parallel to this period was the Global War on Terror, which saw many cuts to conventional forces programs to help fund it (seen as excessive at a time when the US needed to focus on counter-terror), both in the Bush and Obama administrations. The DoD had to fight tooth and nail to get funding to needed conventional forces in this time frame as the threat China would pose became apparent.

It was only by relatively late in the Obama administration that we actually started to see a turnaround, albeit a rather slow one.

With that said, it's also hard to understate how rapidly China has emerged as a near-peer threat. Back in 2008, for example, the Chinese military was vastly inferior to where it is today. They were only just bringing into service their first Type 093 SSNs (which were still not very good), and the bulk of their SSK force was still Ming's (035's) and Romeo's. They had only a handful of modern destroyers (2x Type 052C, 2x Type 051C, 4x Sovremenny), were only just starting Type 054A frigate production, and were still reliant on the Russians for their most formidable fighters (Su-27SK/J-11 & Su-30MKK). Otherwise, they had a handful of J-10 in service but the vast majority of their air force was all J-7's and J-8's.

[unborn wyvern]

All Hail our glorious Nation of Krasnovia! (yes)

[maiden citrus]

they're made up for training sims

[subtle prawn]

https://aviationweek.com/shownews/farnborough-airshow/boeing-studies-growlerizing-f-15ex

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq18Fp2pagI

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1815756788911710594

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1945, USS Barb "sank" a train when a landing party went ashore at Karafuto, Japan, and planted the sub's scuttling charges on a track. As the party returned to the sub, the explosives detonated and wrecked a train. A train victory mark was added to the Barb's battle flag.

Twitter · Jul 23, 2024, 2:32 PM

[hasty pewter]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_East_Africa u talking about this, right @burnt cloud

[burnt cloud]

Yeah.

But for somereason I ofund Italian wikipedia about Red sear flotilla and talked about ships in Italian East Africa?

[hasty pewter]

Im not so sure if that would be a great addition

[burnt cloud]

It existed for 5 years.

Or probably close to it.

I havent dug into it that much, but I'm guessing AOI had some controll over red sea flotilla.

But mostly Kingdom of Italy still had controll over most of the vessels.

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1815845627076493423

[timber linden]

Reminds me of the a 5

[chilly osprey]

The AOI existed for purposes of colonial governance. It did not have its own armed forces - all units based in Italian East Africa remained under the operational control of their respective service branches.

In the case of the RM, there was a local naval command (as there were in all parts of Italy and its colonies, which existed for local operations, compared to, say, the fleet forces). This fell under Settore Africa Orientale, and at the start of the war was under the command of Rear Admiral Carlo Balsamo (who was ultimately responsible to Supermarina).

These included III and V Destroyer Squadrons (four and three destroyers, respectively, the 81st and 2nd Submarine Squadrons (four boats each), and the colonial sloop Eritrea, all based out of Massawa. Assigned for the defense of this base there were also two torpedo boats (de-rated WWI destroyers) and a squadron of MAS (5). The base also hosted two gunboats, a minelayer, and three water tankers.

[willow jungle]

IJN Fuso at the bottom of Surigao Strait, Philippines.

[supple sandal]

Let see the comment section

[timber linden]

Russians: let's make an agile fighter
Americans: big engines on flying brick goes zzzoooooommmmm

[autumn sorrel]

It is a reupload so most talk about him dropping the old sponsor

[supple sandal]

My dad doesn't understand English but he look very interested when I watching that video

[ivory ridge]

I'm sorry but who do you think owned the italian ships currently ingame

[mental tapir]

The Italian partisans of course

:^)

[shrewd pecan]

or the Japanese ships

or the German ships

[eternal veldt]

They switched sides ™️

[desert agate]

Zara didn't

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kiy3G3TouUg

[runic ermine]

Wouldn't it increase the price?

[fierce sparrow]

https://fxtwitter.com/FWD_Publishing/status/1816124501295333874

[willow jungle]

HMS Indefatigable (1909) sinking after having been struck by shells from SMS Von der Tann during the Battle of Jutland. (31 May 1916)

[wintry moat]

Damn

Those shell plumes are massive

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/EAA/status/1816254647893405791

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp2u-wQ5h-A

[willow jungle]

French Pre-dreadnought Brennus. Who tf designed their ships???

[ivory ridge]

me

that doesnt even look too weird for a pre dread

[spring briar]

Yea

We made far worse looking ones

Mainly the class after Brennus

The other ones look alright

[desert agate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4He8fuRhXg&ab_channel=NotAPoundForAirToGround

[runic ermine]

It's interesting how almost everyone had a good aircraft

[junior trench]

huh

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/OnDisasters/status/1816238429321191576

Air Safety #OTD by Francisco Cunha (@OnDisasters) on X

🧵#OTD in 2000: Concorde disaster. Air France Flight 4590, a Concorde, crashes in Paris (France). All 110 aboard and 4 on the ground die. Jet struck debris on runway puncturing the fuel tanks. The subsequent fire and engine failure caused a loss of control shortly after take-off.

Twitter · Jul 24, 2024, 10:26 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/Airbus/status/1816158866318512635 Speaking of the Concorde

Airbus (@Airbus) on X

We are sad to learn that Michel Rétif passed away yesterday aged 101. He was the last surviving flight crew member of #Concorde's maiden flight in 1969.

He is third from the left in the photograph below.

Our thoughts and sympathies go out to his family and former colleagues.

Twitter · Jul 24, 2024, 5:09 PM

[runic ermine]

Every country of ww2 pretty much had a reliable fighter plane

[willow jungle]

Allied naming of Jap aircrafts.

Here's a better quality.

[fierce sparrow]

https://fxtwitter.com/ChungTzuW/status/1816626836735955209

[desert agate]

The ki-54 was a bomber trainer???

[runic ermine]

I know but I should have been more specific and said that almost every country in ww2 had good aircraft for their intended roles

[timber linden]

the p 39 doesnt count as the soviets

[runic ermine]

It counts as lend lease

[timber linden]

nah

[runic ermine]

Did the Soviets have anything similar?

[timber linden]

https://youtu.be/ny4AYOv-nUk?si=8cbAZdPXdblu-2PI

[runic ermine]

I mean the IL-2 and it's variants were pretty good but I now remember some Goofy planes that the Soviets had

Like the TB3

Which due to war thunder one of its variants has become a meme

[desert agate]

https://x.com/AusAirForce/status/1816653338924228734

Royal Australian Air Force (@AusAirForce) on X

Soaring through the skies in perfect formation for #PitchBlack24, enhancing joint operational skills! 📸✈️

🇦🇺F-35A Lightning II
🇹🇭AS-39 Gripen
🇪🇸Eurofighter Typhoon
🇰🇷F-15K Slam Eagle
🇮🇩F-16 Fighting Falcon
🇸🇬F-15SG Eagle
🇫🇷Rafale
🇮🇹Eurofighter Typhoon
🇸🇬F-16 Fighting Falcon

Twitter · Jul 26, 2024, 1:54 AM

[runic ermine]

Cool

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/DocStrangelove2/status/1816111593853468770

Doc Strangelove (@DocStrangelove2) on X

Modernized Mauser and Luger

Twitter · Jul 24, 2024, 2:02 PM

[strong sable]

I found that there was road in shanghai, used to be named as "Avenue Joffre" before 1940s

So if you can step on the road, you can say

I am on Joffre

[spring briar]

Based

[strong sable]

[shrewd pecan]

Mauser honestly isn’t that bad

[autumn sorrel]

I only accept it if they give it a Carbine stock

But it might be illegal in some place bc stock is scary for whatever reason

[manic latch]

Why

[desert agate]

https://x.com/xaviervav/status/1816514756079149472

Xavier Vavasseur (@xaviervav) on X

Australia' SEA 3000 / Tier 2 frigate requirement competition in full swing this week at #IODS2024 in Perth 🇦🇺
☑️ New FFM 🇯🇵
☑️ Alfa 3000 🇪🇸
☑️ FFX Batch 2 🇰🇷
☑️ FFX Batch 3 🇰🇷
But no 🇩🇪 MEKO A200 in sight unfortunately
Videos by yours truly and stories by @AlexLuck9 to come

Twitter · Jul 25, 2024, 4:44 PM

[timber linden]

Because I said so, everyone else made a fighter in house....why couldn't the soviets

[manic latch]

What do you mean

Are you implying UK only used UK made planes?

[timber linden]

The uk had the spitfire or hurricane

[manic latch]

Ok?

Soviets had Yak, Mig, La

So?

[timber linden]

The best fighter of the war was the p39 for the soviets. Like thier best truck was made in Detroit

[manic latch]

Why it was best fighter?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-3

I hope you ain't saying it's P-39 just because of the fact it's American made right

[autumn sorrel]

Wait, what?

[runic ermine]

I'd say the IL-2 was

[spring briar]

The IL-2 is a ground attack aircraft
Not sure if that counts as a fighter

@chilly flower

?

[runic ermine]

Ok fair but should muli role count?

[spring briar]

I pinged Pretz
They will say

[manic latch]

No

It's horrible against fighters

That's why it get turret gunner

[autumn sorrel]

There were attempt at making a fighter version of IL-2, lets just say that the quality that make it an excellent CAS doesn't translate well into dogfight

[remote monolith]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/articles/cxw21gejr9jo

A study using computer modelling has found that the largest T.rex that existed could have been much bigger than the current known largest specimen.

It is estimated it could have weighed 15 tonnes and measured 15 meters.

babe wake up the rex just got another upgrade

[manic latch]

IL-1

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93wQ7fZpCnQ

[chilly flower]

While the P-39 was certainly good with how the Soviets used it and the low-altitude combat environment of the Eastern Front, to say that it was the best fighter that the VVS had is... misguided, I'd say

The VVS would gain reliable and competitive domestic fighter designs of it's own well before (and well after) lend-lease even kicked in, mostly beginning with the Yak-1, which was being introduced into service in the early dire days of Barbarossa. It wasn't until 1942 that it really became the main frontline fighter replacing many of the obsolete types that had been mostly destroyed on the ground at the onset of the invasion. It was good overall, but mostly just good enough to hold the line as both more capable variants arrived as well as new types, as once the 109F became common also in 1942, the Yak-1 largely fought at a disadvantage. Later models, like the Yak-1b, were better set to keep up with the 109F and early G models, but it really wasn't until the introduction of the La-5 and the later Yaks (alongside some lend-lease fighters such as the P-39) that things started to get shaken up.

The Yak-7, originally starting life as a trainer version of the Yak-1 with a stretched fuselage and other changes, would find surprising success when converted into a fighter, and although it was largely in the same boat as the Yak-1 performance-wise it too would both improve, but also serve as the basis for the much more capable Yak-9.

The La-5, appearing in the summer of 1942, was a bit rough-around-the-edges with it's teething issues at the start but had great development potential and performance that could allow it to fight the later 109s and even the Fw 190 on even terms. It kept up with them too with it's later models, such as the improved ASh-82F version of it's engine on standard aircraft, the La-5F with improved visibility, and the excellent La-5FN combining both the canopy and structural improvements with the even more potent ASh-82FN engine. It too would serve as the basis for the further refined La-7 that appeared later.

At the end of 1942, the Yak-9 would start to appear, improving greatly over the Yak-7 with performance and general qualities that were good enough to fight the later 109s and 190s on the same footing, similar to the La-5. The Yak-9 was also developed further throughout 1943-44, leading to even better models like the Yak-9M, Yak-9P, and Yak-9U, the last being on par with even the La-7 and Yak-3 performance wise when equipped with the VK-107, although initially it was an engine that could very much not be considered reliable.

Also appearing in the summer-fall period of 1944, was both the La-7 and Yak-3, perhaps two of the best VVS fighters of the war-

The Yak-3 actually started out as an improved model of the Yak-1, rooted in the I-30 prototype that was shown as an alternative to the I-26 (the Yak-1 prototype). Once Barbarossa started, the Yak-3 was effectively shelved for the time being, somewhat similar in circumstance to the T-34M project. It was only in 1943 that they picked up development of the Yak-3 again, incorporating lessons learned during the war. It would prove to be such an improvement that it was recommended to completely replace the Yak-1 and Yak-7 with the type, while the Yak-9 was comparable enough to stay in production. It was one of the most maneuverable fighters on the Eastern Front, with good overall performance to boot.

Finally, the La-7 was the apex of Lavochkin's fighter development during the war, only surpassed by the postwar La-9. It used the La-5FN as a basis but was significantly cleaned up aerodynamically, including moving the oil cooler to the wing roots, and the air intake, which originally was on top of the cowling and was somewhat of an nuisance for over-the-nose visibility, was moved underbelly. It also used more metal in its construction now that there was less of a concern about shortages. Overall the changes were enough to grant it superb performance, and it was another very strong contender for the best VVS fighter of the war.

Combined with a drastic change in doctrine, experience, and training in the VVS (and the shift in the ground war), many of these later models would be instrumental in turning the tide of the air war on the Eastern Front starting in 1943-44, and while issues did appear with many types (either rooted in production or inherent design drawbacks/flaws), they were all generally reliable enough to serve on in frontline combat and fight the Luftwaffe on even terms, and met the VVS's needs much more than lend-lease designs, although lend-lease still proved valuable.

[chilly flower]

While the IL-2 sometimes found itself engaged in air combat (most famously attacking the Luftwaffe's "Air Bridge" of transport aircraft that were trying to keep the encircled German Sixth Army at Stalingrad supplied via the Pitomnik airfield), it usually was just as attacks of opportunity against low-flying bombers, transports, liaison aircraft, etc. It could not engage nor really fight against actual fighters, and had to rely on a gunner to reliably defend itself in most circumstances. The IL-1 (to avoid confusion, I must clarify that the Soviets used odd numbered designations for fighters and even numbered designations for other types at this point; so the IL-1 was not an earlier development) was an interesting concept for an "armored fighter" that was toyed with, but went nowhere and really wouldn't have been very successful.

[spring briar]

Thx pretz

You get a cookie

🍪

[manic latch]

Pretz dunked on Kaga

[runic ermine]

Thanks

@chilly flower wait that makes me ask the question: "If the concept of an armored aircraft was toyed with how did nations vision its use?"

Because one thing to remember is that the heavier something is the more fuel it uses

Also slower

[chilly flower]

Specifically, the "Armored Fighter" concept described was moreso restricted just to the USSR (and even then only really by Ilyushin iirc) as a heavily-protected fighter based on the IL-2. It would've relied on armor plating and horizontal maneuverability as a fighter mostly, although the problem of speed and struggling with vertical maneuverability, climb rate, etc meant that it wouldn't have really gotten anywhere in terms of success. There was also the uhh, interesting integration of aerial grenades that were meant to explode in the path of a pursuing fighter

[chilly flower]

An aircraft's weight is not the core reasoning for fuel usage, though it's certainty relevant- engine fuel consumption and aerodynamics generally play a greater part

[frozen kestrel]

So, hyper-specific question, but how tall was the Bismarck?

[maiden citrus]

awe yis I am waked

armored fighters are also based

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1816933024170410301

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1959, Lt. Col. William Rankin ejected from his F-8 Crusader at 47,000 ft and fell through a thunderstorm cloud. He then spent 40 minutes being whipped around as lightning bolts shot by him. Suffering frostbite and severe decompression, he eventually landed in a forest.

Twitter · Jul 26, 2024, 8:26 PM

[runic ermine]

Interesting

[runic ermine]

Can someone help me read this?

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1zU3NM4OQ

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1817337925845373128

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

Today is #NationalNewJerseyDay! USS New Jersey (BB-62) is the most decorated battleship in U.S. Navy history, earning 19 battle stars for service in WWII, Korean War, Vietnam War, Lebanese Civil War and the Persian Gulf. "The Big J" is now a museum in Camden.

Twitter · Jul 27, 2024, 11:15 PM

[runic ermine]

Speak of Korean War it technically ended yesterday

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/kommandostore/status/1817282559266770960

Ivan (@kommandostore) on X

A lot going on here

Twitter · Jul 27, 2024, 7:35 PM

[runic ermine]

What in God's name is that monstrosity of a firearm?

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1817382454866460921

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1972, the F-15 Eagle flew for the first time. The Navy once considered developing the F-15N Sea Eagle as a faster, lighter and cheaper alternative to the F-14. However, modifying the F-15 with folding wings and stronger landing gear for carriers negated its advantages.

Twitter · Jul 28, 2024, 2:11 AM

[frozen kestrel]

what

the FUCK is that thing

[autumn sorrel]

AK pistol grip
AR frame but modified for side mounted magazine, probably won’t feed reliably
Optic mount carry handle but I don’t trust it to be zero
Water cooled jacket for the barrel

Look like Fallout 4 assault rifle but other than the magazine position, I don’t hate this as much.

[junior trench]

why wouldn't it feed reliably

the only possible change you'd need to make is dialing back the spring pressure in the magazine slightly

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1817694719998132394

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1945, the destroyer USS Callaghan (DD-792) sank near Okinawa after a kamikaze smashed into the starboard side. The Callaghan was the last of almost 50 Allied ships sunk by suicide attacks during the war.

Twitter · Jul 28, 2024, 10:52 PM

[sullen canyon]

My response to this is, "We do a little Tom Foolery"

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1817957426282312070

[timber linden]

https://tenor.com/view/the-failure-is-mine-john-mccain-south-park-s12e12-about-last-night-gif-22779422

or am I think of one of the other 1960's super carrier fires?

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1818077600930996575

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1980, USS Midway (CV-41) collided with the Panamanian-registered freighter (M/V) Cactus. The collision mangled catwalks and deck supports, jammed one of the carrier's elevators and damaged several F-4s. Two Midway sailor were killed and three injured due to the accident.

Twitter · Jul 30, 2024, 12:14 AM

[junior jacinth]

https://youtu.be/Sh7OEq5fm2Q?si=YU9bMfyKl_asOsh9

[spring briar]

More myths

[remote monolith]

right anyone brave enough to actually check out the video?

the title is already making me cautious

[manic latch]

Hmmm

It's a slippery slope

[remote monolith]

aaaaand there it is

[manic latch]

Is it trying to gaslight people to think British is the real guilty one

Or is it trying to whitewash Germany being normal

[remote monolith]

I won't be surprised if it tries to be both at once that Germany's behavior was typical of a 20th century imperial monarchy state but also insinuates the British is solely to blame for WWI

[spring briar]

"the entente was the true evil and were prepared for this war before germany was"
what even is the Schlieffen plan

[remote monolith]

self defence plan

made ready just in case the butthurt French prepares to invade Germany over their justified losses of Alsace-Lorraine

[spring briar]

pure ciné

[ivory ridge]

https://fixupx.com/NichoConcu/status/1818280425124512153?t=HlT2rJyPoSgiabWkV70NnA&s=19

[runic ermine]

We all know the real cause

[autumn sorrel]

Isn't this the universal turret that can be adapt to multiple platform?

[ivory ridge]

well they are advertising it on a bunch of platforms so yeah kinda

but initially it's just the B2s

weve seen it on the turkish tulpar

the german Lynx

and even an Ariete

it's a bit like the previous hitfact, the one on the centauro 120, which was mounted on a bunch of wheeled and non platforms

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, any order for the turret from any country?

[ivory ridge]

other than brazil who's just buying the whole b2 i dont think so

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/scream-if-you-love-brazil-brasil-gif-6938057558292577085

[autumn sorrel]

Funny, a lot of country turn back to light tank but they rather design entire new turret instead of buying the HITFACT, national sentiment or local industry support?

Hmm, India also just introduce a new light tank using a Belgian designed turret, right? How does it compare to HITFACT?

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Law_9Q6tC9o

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1818673914442056110

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1964, Task Force One consisting of USS Enterprise, USS Long Beach, and USS Bainbridge left Norfolk on Operation Sea Orbit. The all-nuclear-powered unit traveled 30,565 miles around the world without refueling to “show the flag” and demo the Navy’s technical achievement.

Twitter · Jul 31, 2024, 3:43 PM

[rapid junco]

https://tenor.com/view/anime-freaking-out-hitori-bocchi-no-marumaru-seikatsu-freaked-hitori-bocchi-gif-14016944

[fading quest]

Question, the name of Romania is a legacy or this name is a mistake ?

[autumn sorrel]

Some travelling Italian call them "Roman" so people in Wallachia start calling themselves Roman

[fading quest]

Technically the name Wallachia mean "the Roman land" or "the land of the romans" or in romanian "Tara românească" this mean the lend of the Roman citizens land or something like that

[mossy gorge]

as a romanian, it is probably for legacy since romania literally translates to 'Roman Land' or 'People of Rome' or something along those lines

[fading quest]

(i am roamnian too , but I found it like a interesting topic)

[mossy gorge]

esti roman?

[fading quest]

Da , (nice name)

[mossy gorge]

coaie

bine atunci

[subtle prawn]

https://www.twz.com/air/cv-22-osprey-crash-in-japan-was-caused-by-gearbox-failure

[versed tree]

yeah that one suck

still prefer chinhook rather than that shit

[junior trench]

the average crash rate for US Army helicopters of all type is 3.22 per 100k flight hours.

the current average for the Osprey is 3.43 per 100k, heavily skewed by the early testing crashes and shorter time in service relative to the age of US Army helos

the high passenger count of the V-22 also heavily skews perception due to the number of personnel involved per crash

see the public perception of passenger aircraft crashes vs car crashes for another example of such an effect

[desert agate]

it is in fact the safest rotary wing in US service

also notable that the JGSDF hasnt had any incidents with the type

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqxfzPVHZZo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaFrX0ucF2c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zbke_Saqds

[runic ermine]

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/concerns-canadian-army-trucks

[timber linden]

https://tenor.com/view/the-hell-is-that-gif-27667584

Looks like one of those dollar store knock of a real toy humvee

[runic ermine]

That's what the soldiers are asking

Who have also said that the buggy looking thing doesn't not protect from the cold which is kinda obvious just by looking at it

[timber linden]

The dei humvee

[runic ermine]

More like dei why?

Deadly
Exclusively to our
Infantry

[junior trench]

I don't even know where to start with this

[runic ermine]

The picture or my joke?

[timber linden]

https://tenor.com/view/jetstream-sam-metal-gear-rising-jetsream-sam-metal-gear-rising-sam-gif-26079110

Was built and designed by GM/Chevy....explains most things

Better than modern jeep

[shrewd pecan]

isn’t that just a Canadian take on the ISV

[desert agate]

dont make fucking DEI 'jokes' in here for fucks sakes

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1820108499361165400

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1960, the decommissioned HMS Vanguard was on her way to the breakers yard when she apparently decided to go for a final pint. The Royal Navy's last battleship ran aground next to the Still & West pub in Portsmouth. It took an hour for 5 tugs to pull her away.

Twitter · Aug 4, 2024, 2:44 PM

[random mountain]

All the torpedos

[runic ermine]

84 torps holy

[random mountain]

400mm belt too

The idea was it would fire its torpedos at a enemy battle line and make the enemies dogde

Or well sink

While they were dogding they would be a easier target for the other allied battleships

It was actually a very well received design in Russia and was being looked into being built until ww1 started

In multiple wargames the design peformed very well being basically a bb grade armour armoured cruiser

[desert agate]

i love this picture because it really emphasises the sheer scale of battleships

like just looking at the numbers on a page is all well and good but looking at a picture with one of these ships and the crowd is nothing more than ants is pretty insane

its definitely one of my favouite warship pictures

[runic ermine]

Also because Vanguard is the centerpiece of the photo. It just makes for a really nice photo

And you're right about the scale making the photo better

[lime scarab]

The battle of the coral see prompted the Japanese to wake midway correct? Because the Japanese were surprised that the Americans were able to make a fleet so quickly to surprised them correct. So the Japanese thought it was necessary to take midway island so they could threaten Hawaii, which was America base of operation.

I also remember that Japan was also very shaken up form the Doolittle raid which threaten Tokyo, and mostly there emperor. So an acquiring midway island the Americans can’t make another strike like that again correct?

[wintry moat]

I definitely agree, you really dont get a good sense of scale in just raw numbers, learned that when I visited Alabama

[maiden citrus]

most are so large that if you are viewing them from a distance of not very far away, it messes with your eyesight's ability to dicern depth

[fading quest]

I was speaking with a friend, how is explain then today is existing 3 Latin speaking groups close to Romanian, if Romania don't have a Roman origins?

• istro-romanians (from Istria don't have any blood simiralry)
• Aromanians (from today Greece a theory say was trachian then survive in Greeks regenons)
• Megleno-Romanians ( form today Macedonia a theory say they was from Dacia Traiana after the Roman Empire he gave up the territory of Dacia across the Danube river)

[mental tapir]

More or less, though iirc it was more Doolittle than Coral Sea that made the Japanese pursue Midway

Home Island attacks made them shooketh AF

What variant of Seafire did Implacable operate for the Battle of Okinawa?

[runic ermine]

Today marks 110 years since Britain declared war on Germany during World War 1

[desert agate]

Operation MI was already being planned before Coral Sea

[autumn sorrel]

Indefatigable you mean?

[mental tapir]

Did they operate different variants?

Also I realize Implacable wasn't at Okinawa oop

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, it is Indefatigable. Royal Navy operate Mk III and L Mk III with her squadron.

[subtle prawn]

They were usually Seafire LIIIs flying at 3,000 feet or less within ten miles of the destroyer screen controlled by visual fighter directors on a common local air defence R/T frequency. The fleet CAP usually comprised sections of fighters at high, medium and low level. Corsairs had markedly better performance at high level and flew high CAP sorties; Seafire FIIIs flew the medium CAP and Seafire LIIIs the low level. Seafires of 24 Fighter Wing in Indefatigable flew seventy-two sorties on the first day of ‘Iceberg I’ but were unable to keep up that pace because they had sailed with only thirty-seven pilots, thirteen short of the planned complement.

[mental tapir]

Did any of the Griffon-engined Seafires serve in WW2?

[subtle prawn]

My book only mentions the only Seafires serving with the BPF having Rolls-Royce Merlin engines with the only Griffon-engined aircraft being the Fairey Firefly

[mental tapir]

Oof

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCXtUQkXlxY

[runic ermine]

Question. What is your opinion on how Kantai Collection depicted midway?

[desert agate]

As far as I know it was revisionist but I’m not particularly interested in KC

[runic ermine]

I was never hugely interested in KC nor around when it was big. But I do remember the shitposts about people fighting about it

I watched it in December 2022 and it was shit. Historical revisionist is putting it lightly

Armchair TV member Potential History called it "The anime equivalent of teenage girls fighting for the confederates and winning the battle of Gettysburg"

[eternal veldt]

Kancolle in itself is fairly revisionist in depicting the Allies as the enemies

but hey, abyssal waifus cute, so they're doing me a service

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1820453225884963228

[manic latch]

@shrewd pecan @tough quail

[runic ermine]

What in the good lord's name is that

[manic latch]

Abrams + Kontakt-1

Really cool actually

[round elbow]

It does have a neat aesthetic.

[runic ermine]

Agreed but all that extra armor is crazy

[tough quail]

i swear whoever put this together stopped caring about actual effectiveness and just wanted to see if he could cover every inch of the turret

[fierce sparrow]

[remote monolith]

Ah, todays the day

August the 6th

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Boy

Ye

[runic ermine]

Of the first nuke

[spring briar]

*second nuke

Trinity was first

[runic ermine]

But it was still better than operation Downfall

[spring briar]

Yes but?

[autumn sorrel]

Don't start it again

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

https://youtu.be/WL5JJInqTT8?si=cf-XOgNihOB4zX4x

[shrewd pecan]

https://youtu.be/Y79iz3ufZbg

https://youtu.be/9tU3wCHblEM

[subtle prawn]

Didn't think anybody here would show interest in the KR war week-by-week besides me

[shrewd pecan]

I've been keeping a eye on it

it dropped like a week after I got back from Korea so

it peaked my interest

[lofty basalt]

Does anyone have a documentary that they would suggest?

[subtle prawn]

On what subject?

[mental tapir]

Start what again?

[subtle prawn]

The atom bomb debate

[mental tapir]

Something Japan banking on Soviets being neutral negotiators something only loss of negotiators motivated surrender

[runic ermine]

Why on earth would they think that?

[fierce sparrow]

https://fxtwitter.com/ronkainen7k15/status/1820815280416706755

[autumn sorrel]

It actually more helpful and provide more context on the early day of the war. Indy and his team doing good work as usual

[autumn sorrel]

Debate on operation Downfall

It has been talk to death in this channel and I am not too keen to repeat it again

[mental tapir]

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zC7lnTDGSM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1821288698949816594

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

Corsair and Hellcat pilots gained an even greater appreciation for their planes when they switched from combat flying to occupation duty following the surrender of Japan in 1945. With their planes stripped of 5,000 pounds of bombs and extra fuel, the pilots enjoyed flying with

Twitter · Aug 7, 2024, 8:53 PM

Corsair and Hellcat pilots gained an even greater appreciation for their planes when they switched from combat flying to occupation duty following the surrender of Japan in 1945. With their planes stripped of 5,000 pounds of bombs and extra fuel, the pilots enjoyed flying with increased speed and maneuverability. One ace noted that it was like upgrading from "a Model T to a V-8."

[supple latch]

USS NC in heavy seas near the phillipines December 1941

[obtuse palm]

You sure the date or place is correct? December 1941 is when Japan was invading the Philippines

[supple latch]

It is.

Remember they didn't reach the phillipines until December 8th

[obtuse palm]

She's supposed to be on shakedown cruise to fix out her issues with vibration

She's in the Caribbean during Pearl Harbour, she can't have gotten there in 7 days

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/9fowub/2000x1589_uss_north_carolina_bb55_in_heavy_seas/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button this reddit post says 1944, much more believable

[supple latch]

Ah nvm

The date was wrong

[obtuse palm]

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-n/bb55.htm as well 1944

[supple latch]

Was 1944

[obtuse palm]

Ah ok

[supple latch]

Screening TF38

The initial post I got it from was wrong, someone corrected it

This one's interesting

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghKrbNpqQoY

[desert agate]

https://x.com/hiddenhistoryyt/status/1821368284513550340?s=46

Hidden History (@HiddenHistoryYT) on X

Aerial view of the USS Corregidor's deck where crew members have formed the words 'Fight Cancer' on arrival in New York, April 29th 1953. The ship's crew were helping to raise funds for the United States Cancer Fund.

Twitter · Aug 8, 2024, 2:10 AM

[maiden citrus]

based

[runic ermine]

I was at the Canadian war museum

[keen aurora]

All branches of the U.S military retired the Chinook and Black Hawk this year.

[shrewd pecan]

?

[shrewd pecan]

No they haven’t

[keen aurora]

The Marines retired the Chinook this year

The Army Retired the Black Hawk in favor of the Valor tiltrotor helecopter.

Tiltrotors are the future

Also the A-10 is going into retirement in favor of a single seat prop plane for CAS.

[shrewd pecan]

The marines never operated chinooks

V-280 is a decade away from entering service

[keen aurora]

Nope, the V-280 was approved this year.

[shrewd pecan]

V-280s first deployment isn’t gonna be until 2031

[keen aurora]

Black hawk got retired this year

[shrewd pecan]

It didn’t

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/techwatch/2024/04/25/us-armys-next-gen-helicopter-engine-could-fly-in-black-hawk-next-year/

buys engine for retired aircraft

[keen aurora]

The UH-1 Huey Gunship should go back in production.

[shrewd pecan]

ok buddy

[keen aurora]

Ok

[shrewd pecan]

https://www.stripes.com/theaters/asia_pacific/2024-01-31/jolly-green-helicopter-okinawa-12849580.html

[astral rover]

so like for future gold/rainbow aircraft AL could add, what do Britain and Japan have left, regardless if it was actually functional since lol Spearfish and Tenrai (i think this belongs in history?)

[desert agate]

Are you intentionally trying to be wrong or are you just stupid

The UH-60 will still be flying for another decade at least in US service probably longer (see how long the UH-1 stuck around despite being ‘replaced’) until the V-280 hits mass production and can be rolled out to squadrons

Just because the airframe has been selected doesn’t mean it’s immediately going to enter service, it will still take a long time to set up production lines, go through extensive testing, crews need training, infrastructure needs to be built for them, all of this takes years to do and the US is not even close to having any of them done

[keen aurora]

Ok

[grave ravine]

For Britain, Jets

[subtle prawn]

Short Sturgeon, De Havilland Sea Mosquito for the UK

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1821751847469584844

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

Dating from the nineteenth century, the U.S. Navy boat cloak was still an optional item for the evening dress uniform in the 1950s. Decades after falling out of fashion, the cape finally was banished to the back of the closet in 2015.
#ThrowbackThursday

Twitter · Aug 9, 2024, 3:34 AM

[autumn sorrel]

I don't know, I would like more Huey for logistic purpose and for many country who can't afford Stallion and Black Hawk, Huey is a good heli

[shrewd pecan]

Venom exists

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_UH-1Y_Venom

It’s literally a heavily modernized Huey

[versed tree]

Future

More like more nightmare

For maintenance

Pilot also

[desert agate]

Tiltrotors offer far more benefits than their meagre drawbacks

[shrewd pecan]

V-280 offers both far better range and more carrying capacity than the Blackhawk

the argument was over him claiming equipment was retired that is decades away from retirement

V-280 itself isn’t expected to enter service until the early 2030s and it’s gonna be decades until the Blackhawk fleet is fully retired

Who knows how long it’s gonna take for the naval version to replace the venom & sea hawk fleets as well

[shrewd pecan]

I’m also gonna point out the fact that the V-280 is far mechanically simpler than the Osprey, only its rotors tilt, not the entire engine assembly like on the Osprey

On top of that, as pointed out earlier the ospreys crash rate is not that much above average compared to over rotary wing aircraft, it’s just skewed by both it being primarily used by the branch with the worse maintainers and its large passenger capacity

[obtuse palm]

And Fairey Gannet lol

Also Blackburn B-54/B-88

[runic ermine]

More pictures from yesterday

[autumn sorrel]

Oh right, this one. I like this.

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1821891535123759440

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1945, the Baltimore-class heavy cruiser USS Saint Paul (CA-73) became the last major warship to fire a salvo at the enemy during WWII, hitting Japanese iron and steel works in Kamaishi. The Saint Paul would also fire the final naval salvo of the Korean War in 1953.

Twitter · Aug 9, 2024, 12:49 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekXabSRjVfQ

[junior trench]

what

are

are you familiar with helicopter flight controls?

are you aware of the shear amount of mechanical wizard fuckery going on inside the primary rotor hub of a helicopter?

[maiden citrus]

helicopters are nearly space magic

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nozdcCO22r0

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1822304148177436704

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#RIP Naval aviator and astronaut Jon McBride who passed away on Wednesday at the age of 80. Prior to joining NASA, McBride flew an F-4 Phantom II on 64 combat missions in Vietnam. He was the pilot for the Space Shuttle Challenger's sixth flight in 1984, spending 8 days in space.

Twitter · Aug 10, 2024, 4:09 PM

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1822283182164594858

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1916, the U.S. Navy awarded its first aircraft production contract to Curtis to build thirty N-9 floatplanes at about $6,000 (equivalent to $173,000 in 2024) per unit. Currently, the cost to fly the Lockheed Martin F-35C is more than $13,000 per hour.

Twitter · Aug 10, 2024, 2:45 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1822075065795535059

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

USS Wisconsin (BB-64) delivers a battleship blossom during a live fire exercise in the Persian Gulf in 1990.
#FirepowerFriday

Twitter · Aug 10, 2024, 12:58 AM

[thorny patio]

Would it be reasonable to assume that Sovetskya Ukraina would have been the name of one of the many Soyuz-class BBs?

Given that there was a planned... 14? 15? Ships to be built before operation Barbarossa?

[desert agate]

Ukraine was the 2nd largest and 2nd most important SSR behind only Russia so it’s safe to assume that it would have been included

[tardy hare]

Can anyone recommend a place to watch/listen to media focused on Ironclads to WW2 naval history? Like a YouTube channel or website? I'm interested in learning more because I feel really stupid for not knowing much, & it genuinely interests me, but I don't really know where to look exactly.

Anyway thank you for your time & any suggestions!

[timber linden]

https://www.youtube.com/@Drachinifel

[tardy hare]

Thank you!

[subtle prawn]

I don't see why not when she was actually laid down and there are photos of her at the shipyard while under construction

[manic latch]

Chief you do realize she is the second laid down Soyuz class right

[subtle prawn]

Judging by the fact he asked that, I don't think so…

[fierce sparrow]

https://x.com/ATRightMovies/status/1822286784107352080

All The Right Movies (@ATRightMovies) on X

Connery and Baldwin on the set of THE HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER (1990).

Twitter · Aug 10, 2024, 3:00 PM

[thorny patio]

My bad okay? It was a question. I guess it'd be more a question to ask if Sovetskya Kazakhskiy was ever planned

[manic latch]

Sovetskaya Kazakhskaya or Sovetskaya Azerbaydzhanskaya are long names yes but possible

Tho fifth ship was named Sovetskaya Gruziya

Rest is unknown since ww2

[spring briar]

Gruziya is Georgia

🇬🇪

Georgia was a popular tourist destination for Soviet citizens (if they were allowed)

[thorny patio]

Of they were allowed? You make it sound like there wasn't much freedom of travel amongst the SSRs

[spring briar]

indeed

the biggest issue was affording vacation for most USSR citizens tbh

but traveling outside of the USSR required formal permission afaik

[thorny patio]

Okay but travel Within the USSR?

[spring briar]

I think that was pretty much unrestricted

not sure

[manic latch]

CIA has this document for foreign tourists

So it's limited but not that limited even for US officals

[runic ermine]

I got the list though

it's oblast based

though worth noting that only 5 were officially named. Since the ship class' nickname was "Stalin's Republics" it's pretty easy to assume what the unnamed ships were named

[manic latch]

You aren't educating me on Soyuz class are you

[astral holly]

I like to collect finnish military stuff: here we have finnish service uniform M/83 with rifleman collar tabs, verikauha field cap, on the service belt we have two pairs of original Mauser 98k pouches one has a finnish SA/Suomen Armeija stamp, bread bag, swedish m/40 mess kit and original finnish m/42 canteen.

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srAN5aMvNGY

[runic ermine]

Well nobody said it so I had to

[manic latch]

@tough quail la creatura

https://x.com/Tank_Archives/status/1822941598008611088?t=jJxYVaL2PxdnhggThbmo9g&s=19

Tank Archives (@Tank_Archives) on X

The Red Army wanted a fully armoured bunker buster with a 203 mm howitzer or 152 mm gun. #OTD in 1942 the design was submitted. The enormous 66 ton monster reproduced here by Aleksandr Kalashnik was deemed far too impractical to build. #tanks #history #WW2 #WWII

Twitter · Aug 12, 2024, 10:22 AM

[runic ermine]

The Soviets' crack was definitely more potent than the German crack

[tough quail]

if you've never seen the stuff germany actually built, sure

[remote monolith]

Germany huffed more on the zaza after 43

well, they were already hopped on zaza before, but losing kicked it to overdrive

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1822997917315039472

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, using B-4 is already overkill and SU/ISU-152 are more than enough to deal with any fortification German can conjure up. And what Chassis they gonna use? The fact that the Soviet have to change so many stuff just to get IS-2 into production and numerous objekt along the way, I pity the poor designer who somehow have to find a way to get 1200hp engine to move this thing.

[junior jacinth]

https://youtu.be/BdrffCJzTt4?si=hcr5sSHiwfSTqb4l mud is hell

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxZMPecZpdg

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T30_heavy_tank

I replied to the wrong person

fuck, my apologies

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T28_super-heavy_tank

https://www.tankarchives.ca/2020/03/in-search-of-ideal-weapon.html

must say 155 MM HVAP does sound rather funny

combine that with this thing somehow managing 5 RPM

[autumn sorrel]

It is fine, I like heavy tank anyway

[autumn sorrel]

Rotary magazine autoloader? I remember those were quite feasible at the time

[fierce sparrow]

https://fxtwitter.com/95Bacchus/status/1823113380376502619

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STcefcs5_kw

[ivory ridge]

Died 199x

Born 2024
https://x.com/africaken1/status/1823355353872175136?t=-Ek7DLsbNbGc4p4AU1UMmQ&s=19

alex (@africaken1) on X

Ethiopia has now completely gone bonkers, with this locally made self-propelled artillery system, from a Chinese WZ-551 APC and a mounted D-30 122mm howitzer

Twitter · Aug 13, 2024, 1:46 PM

Welcome back, centauro pegaso

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/f_kv5JyODNI

[runic ermine]

At least there was a realistic idea behind it

[shrewd pecan]

[raw quarry]

The USS Lexington and USS Constellation were two battlecruiser. Projects laid down to get worked on, because of the Washington Naval Treaty canceling their production, the Lexington was turned into an aircraft carrier. The Constellation was never started but was later made into a nuclear carrier

[eternal veldt]

The name was simply reused. The battlecruiser had no relationship to the Kitty Hawk-class carrier CV-64, which was conventionally powered.

worth noting that the turrets in that drawing is a bit iffy. The Lexingtons and South Dakotas (1920) would have curved turret roofs ala Pennsylvanias/Nevadas, rather than the flat turret roofs started with the New Mexico class.

[thorny patio]

Can someone explain the difference between these two ensigns?

Apparently they are different

One is the IJN naval Jack...

The other is the JMSDF naval jack

[mental tapir]

Slightly different shades of red and white?

[subtle prawn]

The sun is also shifted a bit more to the right on the JMSDF naval ensign compared to IJN one

[eternal veldt]

Hot take: just another example of how much sincerity Japan has behind that "gomenasai" for the funny things they did in WW2

[subtle prawn]

I believe SK (and perhaps a few other countries as well) raised issues about the JMSDF's naval ensign

[eternal veldt]

It was enough to cause that certain thinking man's action boat game to censor it out entirely

Much to the enragement of "muh historical bote" people

[subtle prawn]

Uh, which game?

[eternal veldt]

The one which a Frenchman can load a 380mm gun in 10 seconds

[subtle prawn]

Oh, that one

[spring briar]

Bourgogne

[subtle prawn]

I somewhat had a feeling it was that one, but I wasn't absolutely confident about my guess

[eternal veldt]

https://youtu.be/ohTW_lWRrvU

Corniest advertisement you'll see on this planet

[subtle prawn]

Idk, I've seen even more out there advertisements from China and Japan

[eternal veldt]

There is that one video game with the classified documents having some borderline 🤨 ads

[subtle prawn]

Explain what you mean by those sus ads

[eternal veldt]

A maiden dressed in scantily dressed clothes with a tank driving up to where her mammaries are

Completely new sentence

[somber knoll]

you perfectly described AL in a nutshell, but replace the tank with naval artillery

[weary timber]

its not a hot take tho, they are not sorry, continues to act as the victims, and censors any mention of wrongdoing by japan in ww2 in their education system

[eternal veldt]

Oh, by hot I meant the flag's changes and its relationship with Japanese revisionism. The unapologetic part is rather cold, and there are plenty of examples.

[fluid junco]

The British archives are declassified

[spring briar]

What

Just now

[desert agate]

???

[runic ermine]

And what's in them?

[desert agate]

literally everything thats in the archives

theyve never been classified

everything in the National Archives is public access

[runic ermine]

Then what's he talking about?

[desert agate]

unless some new documents were released under the 20 year rule i doubt hes talking about anything at all

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i_FqUjs1eY

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1823739201927700519

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1945, Japan surrendered. Aircraft from USS Ticonderoga (CV-14) had just returned from an attack on Tokyo when these crewmen heard the news that the war was over.

Twitter · Aug 14, 2024, 3:11 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1823769460744053226

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

After the Japanese announced their intent to surrender #OTD in 1945, the U.S. Navy revealed that it had been planning the most intense and destructive concentration of carrier airpower in history by launching more than 10,000 sorties in support of the invasion of Japan.
#VJDay

Twitter · Aug 14, 2024, 5:11 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY7NhBCbheQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INalXuvgTtk

[shrewd pecan]

https://fixupx.com/notsonarwhals/status/1823509034684776466

[velvet sinew]

Clickbait title.

[velvet sinew]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CrTyGbzXxg
His last interview and probably his last public appearance.

[velvet sinew]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozGPSuR-mik
Mussolini condemning Germany and their racialist nordicism.

[tardy hare]

Where does Alvitr's name come from? Is she a nameless design that the devs decided to give a name to or does her name have historical basis? The Wikipedia page for O-Class Battlecruisers only names 2 projected ships & 1 ordered ship, O, P, & Q.

[remote monolith]

note that in 1934 Mussolini was still opposed to Hitler, after 1936 he started aping Hitler's rhetorics directly

even introducing anti-Jewish laws although not to the extent as Germany

[eternal veldt]

Norse mythology - the devs saw how WG reused the names of the Odin-class coastal battleships, then decided "oh, maybe they want to do that too"

Not the first time a ship game has invented an entirely new name - No ship was ever named "Prinz Rupprecht" either

No ships are called Brynhildr/Brünhilde either, but AL just runs along with it

[tardy hare]

Thank you! I knew the PR series have made up ships but Alvitr is a normal ship & it confused me a bit.

[visual rover]

https://youtu.be/Ij1RB_7jevY?si=wmV9WBDrRN0A9Aiw

[grave ravine]

It is kinda funny that we now have had entirely fictional ships in gacha and a real ship that saw combat in research

[tardy hare]

xD

[grave ravine]

USS Halford in the Pacific in July 1943, before she had the catapult removed

[sage fern]

Question for the engineer buffs. NavWeap has the weight of the Italian 90mm single AA mount listed at 1.8 tons for the gun, and 18.77 tons for the mount (21 tons total, rounded up). Given there's no real world information on the prototype twin 90mm, would it be a stretch to presume if the Veneto class could mount the single, that it could mount a double?

[alpine onyx]

On the Littorios the 90mm guns were installed so they would not penetrate the weather deck, which would make rearranging them a lot easier (or replacing). I would not hold my hand over the fire for a 1:1 replacement of the single mounts with twins, maybe she could do four or five twins, depending on how much space they can allocate for larger mounts and how much more ammo they can fit into the magazines

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1824102007449223292

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

After receiving word of Japan's surrender in 1945, Fleet Admiral William Halsey was still wary of kamikaze attacks so he sent this message to Third Fleet.

Twitter · Aug 15, 2024, 3:13 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6j42UEx78k

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valkyrie

Manjuu is naming O class after Valkyries

So it's their choice

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1824063741865980069

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1945, VADM Matome Ugaki rejected Hirohito's announcement of surrender and posed for this photo before leading 10 planes on one of the last kamikaze sorties of the war. No ships were hit. 3 planes returned with "engine problems" while the fate of the other 7 is unknown.

Twitter · Aug 15, 2024, 12:41 PM

[velvet sinew]

I know. Mussolini moved towards Hitler for political reasons. He was diplomatically isolated after the war in Ethiopia. The fact is that he was never really fond of Hitler and was the first to seek a western coalition to stop Nazi Germany for good. Italy and Germany almost went to war in 1934. Dollfuss was a close ally of Mussolini.

This is from Prince Ernst Rüdiger Starhemberg's memoirs:

[remote monolith]

aye, that all is true

[chilly osprey]

As Sirene said, the mounts were non deck-penetrating so they could be replaced down the line. So a Littorio-class battleship could certainly accommodate said mounts. The question is more how many - and that would probably depend on how large the twin mounts come out to be, in terms of mass and deck area.

Which really comes down to the question of how much additional mass is added by the extra gun and structure to accommodate it, increased size of the turret housing, and whether they fit another hoist or not. The 90/50 stabilized mount is a bit weird in the sense that all the mass is in that turret that is almost more like a 'pod' at the top of the stabilization system, rather than a proper turret and barbette system

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VNE1PD0FHM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/YeeKy_zH/status/1824143637036646905

YeeKy (@YeeKy_zH) on X

Vector57, P45 and MP6

Twitter · Aug 15, 2024, 5:58 PM

[velvet sinew]

Mussolini holding the Sword of Islam. The sword was given to him by Iusuf Kerisc.
In Libya, Mussolini was seen as the protector of Islam.

[timber linden]

Make the Dutch navy great again

[velvet sinew]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcL0TnlyvCg

[ashen kindle]

So ingame, Fargo is all about the cargo logistics.
But when I checked her Wikipedia page and a few other sources, she seemed to just be an unremarkable ship that saw no action before being mothballed before the start of the Korean War.
So any ideas on why her gimmick/personality is based around cargo? I’m mostly wondering if there is a history reason or if it’s just “Fargo” and “Cargo” sound similar.

[visual rover]

Yeah the Netherlands navy is in 2024

[autumn sorrel]

Wells Fargo, it is an US company that start out as an express and transportation back in the Wild West days

[mental tapir]

https://youtu.be/FlNifUIqns8

[shrewd pecan]

as much as I simp for the F-111

F-111B even compared to the tomcat was just a bad idea

[mental tapir]

Swing-wings are generally overated imo and not worth the maintenance afaik

But still VARK VARK VARK

[shrewd pecan]

I must say though

both the fucking F-111 and F-14 were gigantic

[shrewd pecan]

for the context of cold war they kinda made sense since that was the era of near infinite defense budgets and when the benefits of such aircraft made sense

though for the role the F-14/F-111B fill the F-14 as a dedicated fighter was always just gonna be the better investment

[visual rover]

https://youtu.be/7h8fJb8o1Nc?si=fOzBblQFDdorst-P

[grave ravine]

For all that F-14 was massive, the swing wings allow them to pack surprisingly well in a carrier hangar, it's spot value is lower than that for the F-4 Phantom

[manic latch]

@shrewd pecan @tough quail finally got the Leopard-1 Kontakt-1 edition as well

https://tenor.com/view/star-wars-general-grievous-collection-addition-to-collection-gif-15277541

[supple sandal]

@dapper sentinel

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAsKcCEGz6Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4sJNKNpwHI

[lyric kelp]

i have a ? Indiana why does she have a scar

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1824437707860254772

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD 1956, the "Battle of Palmdale" occurred when the U.S. Air Force attempted to shoot down a runaway Navy F6F-5K Hellcat drone. USAF pilots fired 208 rockets without scoring a hit, instead starting fires that burned 1,000 acres. The drone eventually ran out of fuel and crashed.

Twitter · Aug 16, 2024, 1:27 PM

[maiden citrus]

probably a reference to washington and indiana accidentally colliding at night once while both running dark, washington had a bow piece get stuck in indiana's side, with a lot of indiana's side armor damaged

[velvet sinew]

"To those who say derogatory things about colonialism, I would say colonialism is a wonderful thing. It spread civilization to Africa. Before it they had no written language, no wheel as we know it, no schools, no hospitals, not even normal clothing."

Ian Douglas Smith
Last Prime Minister of Rhodesia.

[spring briar]

Yikes

[velvet sinew]

"True, it is a fixed idea with the French that the Rhine is their property, but to this arrogant demand, the only reply worthy of the German nation is Arndt’s: 'Give back Alsace and Lorraine.' For I am of the opinion, perhaps in contrast to many whose standpoint I share in other respects, that the reconquest of the German-speaking left bank of the Rhine is a matter of national honor, and that the Germanization of a disloyal Holland and of Belgium is a political necessity for us. Shall we let German nationality be completely suppressed in these countries, while the Slavs are rising ever more powerfully in the east?"

Frederick Engels

Looking at Engels and even Marx, it is certain that they had racialist views.

[spring briar]

Absolute cringe

[velvet sinew]

Vulgar materialism leads to racialism. Not all the time ofc, but a correlation exists.

In all fairness, marxism by doctrine has no racial elements in it.

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/CavasShips/status/1824541137606152483

[grave mango]

Why are they always on fire 😔

[manic latch]

Uhhh

I think this is first time Minsk's hull was on fire

She was abandoned on a lake for a long time and this happened because I think they were working on to make her a museum or hotel again

Up to the owner on what decision will be

[desert agate]

Rhodesia was such a racist shit hole that even Afrikaaners had a slur for Rhodesians

rest in piss Rhodies you wont be missed

[runic ermine]

Have you seen the balkans?

[desert agate]

I’m Australian I know all about Balkan race relations

Doesn’t stop Rhodesia being a stain in global history

Rhodesia has no redeeming qualities as a state and while its successor was far from perfect it was at least founded on a more legitimate philosophy

[runic ermine]

Like the independent state of Croatia

[junior trench]

🤨

[runic ermine]

You know what the Independent State of Croatia right?

The most lethal European dictatorship in history in terms of percentage to population

[junior trench]

considering who was saying it and the lack of capitalization, I had zero guarantee of confidence you were referring to that particular iteration of a Croatian state

[desert agate]

i am australian, i know all about Croatia
i know a croatian sporting club around where i live that has a picture of Ante Pavelic on the wall

i also know all about Rhodesians because fun fact most of them came to Australia

[runic ermine]

Wait really? I did not know that

[desert agate]

i know a lot of zimbabweans, white and black

i know people who fought in the bush war

i know people who came in the last 20 years and people who came in the last 40

[velvet sinew]

It was racist, but I wouldn't call it a shithole. It's obvious that the country was economically better and developed back then. I'm curious about that slur.

[desert agate]

where was the development

it sure as hell wasnt in the slums of Salisbury

or really anywhere that the white minority didnt live

which isnt all that different to the situation today, Harare has some incredibly wealthy areas, it's just that today you don't have to be white to live there

[junior trench]

something something but the trains ran on time vibes

[velvet sinew]

Inequality existed. I'm not going to deny that. At the same time it's true Rhodesia was economically growing and developing as a nation. Rhodesia used to be known as the breadbasket of Africa. Zimbabwe had to face starvation, hyperinflation, and numerous economic problems. Mugabe was an awful leader. Granted, the situation in Zimbabwe started to get better after his death.

I also wouldn't call communist black nationalism a "legitimate philosophy." It emancipated the black population, but set the country backwards in other aspects.

[desert agate]

the legitimate philosophy is anticolonialism
Zimbabwe was a state created at its core by the majority of the people, for the majority of the people.

None of the economic growth or development in Rhodesia benefitted that majority, the people who illegally stole the land of that majority were the beneficiaries of almost all Rhodesias economic output.

Illegal colonial states are not legitimate states

Mugabe was an atrocious leader, his early policies of wealth redistribution were beneficial and Zimbabwe in the 80s and 90s was a growing economy using traditional economic policies

his policies from the late 90s onwards caused the famines and hyperinflation, and his human rights record throughout his leadership was disgusting, little better than that of the Rhodesians

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, as much as French colonialism cause so much atrocities and griefs in Vietnam, had it not for their colonized effort then Vietnam will still be an ass backward country that under a strict social hierarchy system which are locked in circle of decline, rebellion, wars and famine. But yeah, Smith is very racist here given there are traces of Zimbabwean civilization and cities.

[desert agate]

Smith had no understanding of the complex societies that existed in pre-colonial sub-Saharan Africa

[autumn sorrel]

Most people nowaday still don't

Only thing they could bring up is the Zulu and conviniently ignore others kingdoms that exist before the Zulu

[desert agate]

pretty sure the Zulu didnt get that far north

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah but do you expect layman to look at the map and point where the Zulu kingdom are?

[desert agate]

it's more Shona people up that way

all Bantu in any case

[velvet sinew]

I am glad that we can agree that Mugabe was atrocious. I don't have much against his wealth redistribution policy. His other policies were extremely problematic.

"Illegal colonial states are not legitimate states"
The western oriented concept of human rights and what is legitimate/not legitimate did not apply for those part of Africa and other indigenous native regions. Land was gained by conquest. For example, Zulu expansion was genocidal in some aspects. I'm not against self determination, but do keep in mind that you are applying a western oriented framework here.

In fact, many African states which gained independence during decolonization wouldn't exist without the West. Those areas would just be splintered tribal groups.

[velvet sinew]

Colonialism had its positives. That is undeniable.

I respect Vietnam as a country. They achieved a lot.

[desert agate]

yes colonialism created the states that exist in Africa today, Zimbabwe would not exist were it not for colonialism, but that doesn't make the racist policies of Rhodesia that explicitly disenfranchised the majority population excusable

the Rhodesian declaration of independence was illegitimate and illegal, as all unilateral declarations of independence are in the modern post-WW2 framework of international law

[velvet sinew]

Yes, it doesn't make it excusable. My point was that it would be justified in a pre-western framework due to right of conquest. I want European colonialism to be viewed objectively. It's disingenuous to deny the positive things that it brought overall.

Even Smith's statement should be viewed from a neutral and rational angle.

[grave ravine]

That settler colonialism and imperialism was the norm for a long time does not in any way make it OK, and anyone who claims it was is a horrible person trying to justify horrible things.

But also I find claims that European colonial enterprise could be a positive force due to the benefits it brought to the people colonized to be incredibly dubious, because on a very basic level the people who are most well off in this world today are by and large those who were not the victims of colonialism, and of those who were the victims of second wave colonialism the most successful countries are by and large those that were able to maintain continuity with past institutions

And the claims that colonialism brought Western developments and technologies fall flat in the face of the simple fact that conquest and colonialism are not in fact the only ways in which ideas diffuse

Like Vietnam was just brought up earlier in the conversation, but I think its enlightening to compare Vietnam to say Japan, one ultimately was able to maintain its independence, and the other was not, and yet that in no way prevented Japan from becoming a modern industrialized power, and today Japan is undeniably a more successful country

obviously there are many other elements to the story of Japan's relative success, but the point is simple, colonialism didn't benefit countries by bringing them western technology and ideas because those would spread anyways

[remote monolith]

if anything Colonialism gave far more trouble in the long run to the former colonial states because the exit of the colonial powers tend to be rushed and half-assed AND leaving behind many of the troubles brewing under colonial administration that they never fixed, just supress

[grave ravine]

and colonialism tended to do lasting damage to local institutions and practices of governance

[remote monolith]

for example, the many, many, many troubles that Indonesian cities experienced right now, such as horrible sanitations, unchecked constructions and lack of coherent urban planning are all rooted in the Dutch failing to put out their own coherent urban planning

plus them driving out Natives out of their lands so Dutch companies can bulk buy land means than when they get forcefully booted out there were a lot of empty areas with nebulous ownership free to be taken over by squatters

[remote monolith]

exactly

my African history is not strong, but if I recall a lot of the troubles in Rwanda was because the British favored one ethnicity over another which spilled over to post-colonial era

[grave ravine]

pre colonial institutions of governance may not have been shining examples of good governance and been good at protecting civil liberties, but the void left behind by colonialism has just led to fairly consistently bad outcomes

[grave ravine]

Rwanda is far from the only one, the general mishmash of ethnic groups throughout African states has been a major source of instability within them

And imperial govts in Africa and elsewhere, particularly the British, tended to maintain power by playing off ethnic groups against one another

[remote monolith]

yeah its all over the continent, Rwanda is just the one I remember first

and the point about playing off ethnicities against each other rangs true in Asia as well

[grave ravine]

because the Rwandan Genocide is one of the most horrific examples of things going horribly wrong

[remote monolith]

yep

[grave ravine]

yeah absolutely, but perhaps due to the stronger pre colonial state structures in much of Asia the consequences haven't been quite as bad as they have been in Africa

[remote monolith]

yeah, I guess the more tribal-based structure in Africa means ethnicity-based enmity was still strong, made worse by the rise of Nationalism thinkings

[grave ravine]

not that this makes pre colonial empires "good" in any way either!

[remote monolith]

even then you still have the occasional pogroms against ethnic Chinese whenever something goes wrong in Asia because they got pigeonholed into the "merchants and bankers" role

[grave ravine]

or the horrors of the Partition, or the genocide of the Rohingyas, or the current treatment of Uyghers...

of course with the Uyghers you can't even really point to colonialism, thats just the shittiness of authoritarian states, and just people in general on display

or well you can point to settler colonialism, by various Ethnic Han Chinese empires

[autumn sorrel]

What I meant is that French Colonialism drag Vietnam kicking and screaming into accepting that the old way of thinking cannot be continued. It was the trauma of French invasion and the ineffectiveness of the old regime to resist the invaders that force doubt into the millennium of Confucius teaching of societal order. Also the French colonial rule shape the national identity that Vietnamese share nowadays, not that it wasn’t there before but the French ideas that was imported evolved it even further into Nationalism. Not to mention the French limited effort to create a native administrative caste turn out to create groups of Intellectuals that embrace the French ideas of Liberty and Equality, and then those groups become the founding of what later Vietnam anti colonialism leadership. Even Ho Chi Minh can trace his idea back to those groups.

[grave ravine]

because non-whites can do settler colonialism too!

[autumn sorrel]

Of course the French exploitation and suppression of their colonies is abhorrent but I won’t deny the ideas that they imported alongside their cruelty didn’t improve or at least change the way of thinking of those people that they oppressed.

[grave ravine]

Its not that colonialism didn't bring western ideas and technologies with it, its that I think its simply wrong to claim that said ideas and technologies wouldn't have spread without the colonialism

because they did spread to countries that were ultimately not colonized

[remote monolith]

^ ultimately colonialism is one of the worse ways to learn technologies from, not least because its basically drip fed through a very small class of native elite who may or may not care about being independent from their colonial overlords

[autumn sorrel]

Maybe but the pre colonial Vietnam is a very closed country that refuse any new ideas and actively persecuted anyone who try to change the social norms. It is why Vietnam can’t never have the same policies change like the Meiji Japan.

[grave ravine]

The Tokugawa Shogunate was a famously closed society

[remote monolith]

I mean, that still does not necessarily mean colonialism is a good thing

isolationism can absolutely be broken

[grave ravine]

and yet it got toppled by a Western inspired revolution

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah but they have outside vassals like Satsuma and Chosu to force those changes, Vietnam doesn’t. Even after the first French invasion, nothing change.

There are 3 separate French invasion of Vietnam that eventually lead to the colonization of Indochina

[remote monolith]

this already comes close to speculative history, but even without outside vassals its completely possible for a country to be forced to modernize even to an extent, Tsarist Russia is a good example

even if the changes made was not enough to save the monarchy, ultimately it WAS forced to modify its old autocratic ways according to the demands of its people

[grave ravine]

but also I think you are missing the forest for the trees, my main point is that colonialism ultimately didn't lead to good outcomes for its victims

[manic latch]

Crimean War forced it ye

[grave ravine]

anyways im getting off now, gn yall

[manic latch]

I'm curious about India about it

Would India be better or worse without British being a thing

[autumn sorrel]

Of course not, Vietnam after independence is still a very fucked up place but I shudder to think of the alternatives.

[autumn sorrel]

Good night Drome

[remote monolith]

arguably worse off, as the British half-assing independence process fucked over the country during the first years. 1948 was messed up man

they kinda left without addressing the hundreds of small nawabs and sultans too

[autumn sorrel]

Depend, if the Maratha can force all of the other princely states to actually listening to them but what most likely happen is the continuing of the vassal system.

[remote monolith]

I mean, the alternative ranged for a peaceful transition towards modernized society to a forced inner revolution, you can't really say it will be worse

as I said this falls into speculative history, but not a lot of the results are worse than being a colonial state

[autumn sorrel]

We need a machine that can calculate and accurately draw up alternatives history

Super alt history AI when

[junior trench]

Britain also artificially propped up the caste system to better maintain their own control through local proxies, and uh, now everyone has to deal with those knock on effects

and notably they did this after a rebellion caused by trying to push their own ideals on Indian society

which makes it a case study in colonial powers only really caring about mechanisms of control

not whatever this white man's burden enlightenment stuff has been brought up

[remote monolith]

wait I think I misread the question

fuck I meant to say better off

not worse off

[remote monolith]

but yeah this is absolutely correct

colonial powers never truly cared about enlightening Natives

they only cared in finding out ways to further tighten their grip, and dripfeeding western education to a small class of elites basically ensures they have a core of Natives who will enforce colonial rule and taking the heat away from the nebulous and far off European power

[fierce sparrow]

https://fxtwitter.com/ronkainen7k15/status/1824736723613765765

[grave ravine]

The Marathas were never a force in the North, up until the British arrived the by now decrepit Mughal empire still was the dominant power, but it was slowly losing control

[grave ravine]

I am somewhat doubtful of the prospects of a unified Indian state, but this is very much unknown terrain

[velvet sinew]

Trade and exchange aren't enough to bring forth a societal upheaval. This is especially true for tribalistic and primitive societies.

I am not justifying colonial expansion btw. Colonialism needs to be viewed objectively.

[remote monolith]

erm, you don't need colonialism for that, societal advances can come in many shapes and form and from multiple sources, not just from colonialism, and colonialism certainly isn't a good way to have it out

all the examples mentioned here are pretty strong evidence that in the long run colonialism only causes long term issues in the long run than affects the former colonial state's ability to effectively manage its own affairs

its not like regions that were colonized were completely stagnating, the mainland southeast Asian states like Burma and Siam were doing their best to adapt to changing world situations, and in Burma's case they didn't succeed before the Burmese Wars ended their existence as an independent state

[velvet sinew]

I'll elaborate more once I have time. (Have to do something irl)

[remote monolith]

like, viewed objectively, colonialism did far more harm than good

that's it

there's nothing else to it

any knowledge transfer gained from it is undone by the fact that its not accessible to the vast majority of the colonized native population and limited to the privileged elite with the intention that they will be the extension of colonial rule

any construction projects or modernization efforts done were less in the interests of the Natives and more to satisfy colonial needs, more so when the projects actively drive out Native populations from their lands to make way

in contrast we have plenty of examples where non-colonized people succeeded in catching up to the west through peaceful transfer of knowledges and technology, eg Turkey, Japan, and arguably Siam, even if they did have to give concessions

another example I could cite against the supposed technological transfer that colonialism give is the building of railways in Java. That's good right? A lot of railway system built to go deep inside Java's hinterlands? Except the railways were not built FOR Javans, they were built to facilitate exploitations TO Javans, aka they were there so that the Dutch can keep expanding their vast, indentured-powered plantation dukedoms

and after Indonesia succeeded in gaining their independence, guess what? Those railways are unusable, because they branch into some abandoned plantation area rather than any kind of population centers, forcing the government to rely more on road networks

its kinda like saying "well the rich guy next door broke into my house, raped my wife, blew up the toilet, hung my firstborn, emptied my safe and set fire to the kitchen, but hey he left a short note about how to fix the toilet, so overall that was a positive experience"

[timber linden]

https://tenor.com/view/no-nooo-noooo-omg-omg-no-gif-12379681

[velvet sinew]

I previously mentioned that colonialism had its positives. I never said that it did more good than harm. Objectively looking at colonialism means to not ignore the positives that came from it. Yes, the elite didn’t care about the colonial populations. The elites didn’t even care about the common people in European countries. They just wanted money. Colonial benefits were an indirect consequence.

Turkey, Siam, and Japan all had to westernize their countries to adapt. Especially Turkey. Ataturk gets a lot of hate from online Islamists.

You mention Indonesia and you are right about the railroads. However, it’s also true that the concept of modernization, industrialization, and the idea of having railroads in the first place came from the West.

[velvet sinew]

The problem with Africa is the poorly drawn borders and the mentality of Africans themselves today. Africa was always tribalistic. Far more tribalistic than Asia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsyHbj_SHGA

[remote monolith]

I still fail to see how this is proving that colonialism is in anyway beneficial, nor that the so-called positive is anything more than extremely fringe benefits that could have been received naturally without having to endure centuries of horror. The idea came from the west sure, then suddenly they're not accessible without colonialism? Like you said, those states westernized on their own volition, meaning colonialism was wholly unecessary to the entire process

[velvet sinew]

"then suddenly they're not accessible without colonialism? Like you said, those states westernized on their own volition, meaning colonialism was wholly unnecessary to the entire process"

Colonialism and European expansion in general forced those states to westernize. They weren't directly colonized, but those states were pressured to change. Japan in particular was worried about Western encroachment and they saw China being humiliated. The point is that simple trade and exchange aren't enough to bring societal upheaval.

[autumn sorrel]

It was hypothetical, like you said, the Mughal was on the decline and Maratha were expanding. Had the British or French not intervene, those 2 will clash eventually and I think Maratha can have a shot if they manage to sway some powerful princely state to their side.

[velvet sinew]

Siam was also cornered by the British and French.

[remote monolith]

So that means its still unnecessary then, because they saw they were threatened by the west being far more advanced and began the process willingly, no need to get themselves colonized, as you helpfully mentioned in the example of Japan

[velvet sinew]

It wasn't just about the West being far more advanced. Western expansion into Asia directly threatened them and forced them to adapt.

Japan didn't want to suffer the same fate as China and other Asian countries.

[autumn sorrel]

Japan do get a plus where they still maintain a limited trading relationship with the Dutch so they still managed to import Western ideas and technology even though they were technically “closed”.

[remote monolith]

....so that means its still unnecessary then, because they saw by themselves that they NEED to change

without the need to go through colonialism

[velvet sinew]

Yes, those specific countries didn't need to go through colonialism. Colonialism still forced those countries to change though. I think you misunderstand me here. I am not arguing that those countries(Turkey, Japan, Siam, etc) needed to be directly colonized to experience actual change. Rather, I am saying that Western expansion and colonialism overall(in other countries) acted as a force. A force which was strong enough to make those said countries adapt.

This is another indirect consequence of colonial expansion in general.

[shrewd pecan]

the idea of a unified India barely exists without the British forcing the subcontinent together

its hard to say exactly what a modern day India would of looked like without British colonialism

some other Colonial empire could of stepped in, another Muslim conqueror could of came around or it would of remained as a bunch of disunified Kingdoms

I suppose eventually there would of been some unification movements between the various ethnic groups once the idea of nation states became a thing

but who knows

[velvet sinew]

India would be a bunch of splintered states with the Portuguese still holding onto Goa and Islamic holdouts existing in the north. Russia would also try to involve itself in the situation if the British left the subcontinent alone.

The Afghans were the ones who prevented the Maratha Empire from having a solid foothold in India. Battle of Panipat, etc.

Regarding the parition, people are too quick to blame the British for everything. They actively ignore pre colonial tensions between Hindus and Muslims.

[grave ravine]

There absolutely was past precedent for a unified Indian state, but there was equal precedent for more fragmentation, it's hard to say

[grave ravine]

Tensions that were stoked by the British

It's not that sectarian tensions didn't exist before, but in diverse regions like Bengal and Punjab the primary fault lines were ethnic as much as they were sectarian

[runic ermine]

Canadian volunteer in Vietnam

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1824912147819925800

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

In 1945, fast-advancing U.S. Marines captured an airfield a mile behind enemy lines on Okinawa and then formed a surprise "reception committee" for returning Japanese pilots. Unaware the airfield was in American hands, a fighter pilot landed his plane and taxied to the operations

Twitter · Aug 17, 2024, 8:52 PM

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1824797438726598907

[subtle prawn]

In 1945, fast-advancing U.S. Marines captured an airfield a mile behind enemy lines on Okinawa and then formed a surprise "reception committee" for returning Japanese pilots. Unaware the airfield was in American hands, a fighter pilot landed his plane and taxied to the operations building where he was met by 50 Marines.

[supple sandal]

https://youtu.be/JlirH5pq040?si=7qjYggMSowz283l7

Japanese troop banzai charge the Vietnamese and then the Vietnamese charge back is crazy

[desert agate]

https://fxtwitter.com/MatMcLachlan/status/1825075471375057344

Long Tan really was one of the most spectacular battles of the Vietnam war

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmue3jeYLCc

[desert agate]

today marks 58 years since the Battle of Long Tan when D Company of the 6th Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment, supported by New Zealander and American artillery and air support fought one of the most spectacular defensive actions of the Vietnam War, when a mere 108 men successfully defended their positions in the rubber plantations near Nui Dat against an estimated 2000 Viet Cong

[autumn sorrel]

Still amaze me how the Aussie actually perform much better than most of other SEATO forces in term of combat. They still very much ineffective in pacifying the countryside but their combat record and even the lack of PAVN record of any major victory against them speak volume.

[desert agate]

Primary down to experience gained in Borneo and Malaya

Those two conflicts meant that the institutional knowledge of jungle warfare gained through WW2 was never lost and actually expanded upon as the army was able to gain experience against insurgents too

[remote monolith]

that reminds me, were any Australian units present during Konfrontasi

[desert agate]

The lack of ability to pacify rural areas was mainly down to Australia being unable to dictate its own operational goals in its assigned area of responsibility. The Americans did not allow Australian forces to utilise their full operational experience in jungle warfare

[desert agate]

Yes, Borneo was instrumental in creating Australian successes in Vietnam

[remote monolith]

ah I see

[desert agate]

We deployed both ground and air forces and the RAN was constantly deployed to the area as a part of SEATO

Many of the officers at Long Tan had fought in Borneo and Malaya previously

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, that’s like only a few yrs before Long Tan so they still have their edges

[desert agate]

Malaya was definitely the more important and more involved conflict but both were important

[remote monolith]

Malaya was undoubtedly a far more important learning exercise

[autumn sorrel]

What would be the Aussie way to pacify the countryside then? More aggressive patrols to force confrontations and restrict NLF actions?

[remote monolith]

Indonesian efforts during Konfrontasi was...fairly lacking in many respects

[autumn sorrel]

Wasn’t the Indonesian somehow have entire division of them mutiny in Borneo for over a year?

[desert agate]

I’d need to do a deep dive on Australian doctrine but there were a lot of complaints from Australian officers about American over reliance on air support rather than pressing attacks, rapid withdrawal rather than pursuit and a general failure by the Americans to keep rural areas on side

If Vietnam had been fought like Malaya had then things likely would have gone differently

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, burning people crops and generally being a menace make those villagers who only support the NLF out of fears before will now support NLF out of spites. US Heart and Mind Program don’t really work like how they want it to be.

[remote monolith]

no, its more like the Indonesian guerillas utterly failed in winning the support of local Dayak people and was unable to truly threaten Malayan territories at Borneo

while the Commonwealth suceeded in gaining Dayak cooperation and used them as willing scouts

furthermore, Konfrontasi was not popular at all in the military and Soekarno was stymied at every turn whenever he tried to escalate

[autumn sorrel]

How different is the Aussie Heart and Mind Program compared to the American?

[desert agate]

Completely different

I know this because the commonwealth version won in Malaya

[remote monolith]

the Commonwealth won in both Malaya and Borneo

their hearts and minds program was actually completely successful

[autumn sorrel]

Would it work in Vietnam tho? I mean you can get many minorities group easily but the main Kinh ethnic is very hard to tell. NLF have limited success with the Central Highland minorities and the Khmer Krom but they have better results when come to the Kinh and Chinese Vietnamese by using nationalist talking points and the usual xenophobic rhetoric.

[visual rover]

https://x.com/kon_marine/status/1821545866915950871?s=61

Koninklijke Marine (@kon_marine) on X

In 3 maanden tijd heeft de Karel Doorman ruim 20 marineschepen in de Rode Zee & Golf van Aden voorzien van brandstof. Het vlaggenschip van 🇪🇺-operatie #Aspides zorgde zo dat de betrokken eenheden door konden gaan met het beschermen van koopvaardijschepen: https://t.co/dRac5xlXw4

Twitter · Aug 8, 2024, 1:55 PM

[rich lodge]

ya’ll know the blue whale?

[grave ravine]

Have you seen the film Danger Close and if so what do you think of it?

[junior trench]

Malaya involved an insurgency largely cut off from external support by vast distances of water

and what was tantamount to ethnic cleansing of entire regions by forced displacement to deprive the guerillas of support by the local population

for obvious reasons this was not viable in Vietnam

not that this didn't stop the second from being tried via the Strategic Hamlet Program

but

see the first point

it's much easier to win hearts and minds when the insurgency can effectively be rendered non-factor for the population because you've displaced them

even with the problems involved in forced displacement

and there's the other elephant in the room as well

Thomas Mockaitis—a champion of British counterinsurgency and its current applicability—notes in British Counterinsurgency, 1919-1960, the tactics of colonial counterinsurgencies were “made possible by the extraordinary control that a colonial power could exercise over subject peoples and cannot easily be duplicated.” It is no wonder, then, that counterinsurgency specialists occasionally grow wistful for the colonial setting of early counterinsurgency efforts. In the preface to his influential 2002 book, Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife: Counterinsurgency Lessons from Malaya and Vietnam, Nagl considers the difficulty of applying those lessons in Iraq. The methods that succeeded in Malaya did so, he says, because “when the insurgency began [the British] had been in the country for well over a century.”

https://international-review.icrc.org/sites/default/files/irrc-883-interview.pdf

You know, if you think about the British campaign in Malaya in
1948–1960,1 which has been suggested by some as a classical example of humane
counter-insurgency, the techniques that were actually used would be completely
unacceptable now. Collective punishments, twenty-two-hour-a-day curfews, trans
porting whole populations to completely different parts of the country, putting
hundreds of thousands of people in jail or in ‘new villages’.

[runic ermine]

And what would the opposite of a humane counterinsurgency be?

[junior trench]

non sequitur

[autumn sorrel]

Noted that NLF have great difficulties at the beginning dealing with the Strategic Hamlet Program. They lacked the weaponry and the organization to successfully breach the fortified Hamlet and reestablish their control over the populace. Only after more heavy support weapon and more experienced advisor arrived via the HCM trail and the sea smuggling route that the NLF have the confidence and the force to besiege smaller hamlet and ambush any reinforcement that the ARVN sent to break the siege. But it still take the anarchy after Diem regime fall that the program completely rendered neutered.

[visual rover]

https://x.com/admiraaltas/status/1821534088093634626?s=61

René Tas (@admiraalTas) on X

Vandaag droeg 🇳🇱 het commando over de 🇪🇺 missie #Aspides over aan 🇮🇹. Vanaf https://t.co/6gSXbUnxo7. Karel Doorman zorgde de staf samen met EU-eenheden voor de bescherming van de koopvaardij en daarmee vrije doorvaart op zee. #Mareliberum

Twitter · Aug 8, 2024, 1:09 PM

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wapuP_6ztBw

[rapid junco]

@ivory ridge https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-2gjg8ROe3/?igsh=cHZudzVkaHp1eG40

defesaaereanaval

Chegada do primeiro Centauro II ao Brasil

Likes

206

Instagram

[supple sandal]

About the Strategic hamlet

The villagers hated it

And of course

I still don't see people talk about RVN President have NVA spy on their side all the time

[autumn sorrel]

Yes, unlike Malaya, ARVN and the South Vietnam goverment are heavily infiltrated

[supple sandal]

Sometimes you must wonder that is there anyone in South Vietnam army isn't an North Vietnam medal recipient

[autumn sorrel]

Not much, Thao was the highest profile one, he was one of the best kept secret of the NLF. NLF in fact have major problem with infiltrators, snitch and informant from the CIA Phoenix program.

Most infiltrator tend to be in the middle management position, junior officer and sometimes just manual labors.

[supple sandal]

Corruption and spy problems

[runic ermine]

Today is the 82nd anniversary of the Dieppe Raid

[supple sandal]

I surprise that ARVN lasted as long as it did

Outside of a few elite units

[autumn sorrel]

Yep, one of NLF major source of supply and weapon were from ARVN logistic officers

[supple sandal]

I remember read that you can get a Huey with the right connection and money

[autumn sorrel]

They have well motivated and professional units which very believe in their causes but majority of the army is either press gang, join for money or just make up ghost soldier.

[autumn sorrel]

Yes, there was a recorded heist of one, a fully functional Huey but it was listed as damaged beyond repair and schedule for scrap. It was bought and later fly by a defecting South Vietnam pilot to Cambodia, disassembled, transported via HCM trail up north and then reassembled in Noi Bai

[supple sandal]

My wording might be wrong but in Saigon when people gambling back then, if they out of money but still want to bet more

They said "I bet one communist spy"

Well apparently reporting spies worth money

Idk how inflation work

That supposed to goes into the corruption conversation

[autumn sorrel]

Yes, there are quite a number of element in the ARVN are gangster who join up to avoid prison sentence and police. It is also make easier by how easy to forge personal document so you will get situation where a guy join up, get the enlistment bonus, get a few month salary, sell his ammo and grenade to the black market, and before the MP got to him, desert. Only to join up in another unit and repeat the same thing.

[autumn sorrel]

You want to know how NLF does it or CIA does it?

[supple sandal]

Does what

I mean I trying to remember how much they put on the spy bounty back then and convert inflation to today money

[autumn sorrel]

Infiltrating, CIA and the South intel agency actually have many case where they infiltrated NLF to the position of a province party cadre and just swoop in and decapitated enitre NLF cell leadership

[autumn sorrel]

Ah, that is the informant part of the Phoenix program

[supple sandal]

This is gambling with a person life literally

[autumn sorrel]

Not really, even the CIA don't place much on the informant intel, they turn out mostly to settle fued and grudge, often it is just innocent people got accused of being a Communist.

[supple sandal]

NVA and VC logistics: not enough of anything
ARVN logistics problem: too much of everything and black market exist

[supple sandal]

Still, it is still gamble

Gambling literally

[autumn sorrel]

And the informant life tend to be short, NLF really love making an example out of them, it is very effective propaganda tool when you kill collaborators.

[supple sandal]

I know a lot of people that got accused of being spies is just normal civilian, but getting drag to jail because some rich sob want to play poker is fucked

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, ARVN have quite a few good unit, their special force particularly a bane to the NLF and PAVN force that isn't Commando. Their Marine are directly modelled after USMC and very motivated, their Airborne units perform admirably as well. The ARVN also have good fighting force in their 1st Corp, which have less desertion rate than other none Marine, Special Force and Airborne unit.

But ARVN disaster in Lam Son 719 killed off most of those units, after that operation, ARVN never able to rebuild their strategic reserves again.

[supple sandal]

I think the reason NVA isn't as infiltrated is because the accent will give away easily
NLF is different story tho

[autumn sorrel]

And the ARVN 1st Corp completely disintegrate during the 1975 offensive, not because of PAVN attack but their command structure breakdown.

[supple sandal]

Most youtube documentary never mentioned the fact that the NVA knew the whole operation when it still on the drawing board because they have spies

[autumn sorrel]

PAVN unit don't do infiltrating, they are mostly there to reinforce the decimated NLF after Tet, NLF fighter still the face when you deal with the locals but the PAVN make up the backbone for any major operation or ambushs.

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, Thieu broadcasted the whole damn thing with he specifically mentioned the operation target doesn't help.

And PAVN have been prepare for yrs for an operation like that since US crossborder into Cambodia to do search and destroy there.

Admittedly, had it been US who do the operation, the outcome might be different with the Trail suffered more damage, which will set back yrs into the PAVN planned offensive.

[supple sandal]

I would need the operation room guy to make a video because I want to see the map

[autumn sorrel]

I wish he good luck in getting a partial account from the PAVN archives

They do have a detail after action report but I don't know whether they kept it in some old dusty divisional HQ archive or is it stored in some shelves inside the MoD archives room.

What most you can get from a PAVN source is either published dairy or directly interview the commanding officer which is near impossible considering they are dying out faster than you can track them down.

[supple sandal]

I always see PAVN loss report have the trend of

They can only estimate

[autumn sorrel]

Flowery words?

[supple sandal]

But the estimate number will go up

[autumn sorrel]

PAVN never give out the casualties number correctly.

[supple sandal]

they don't sugercoat in military reports (propaganda yes)

Their estimate only go up

They don't do ridiculous number like the Chinese

[autumn sorrel]

Only way you can get the correct number is using the pension system to get the numbers of Martyrs Mothers and numbers of Heroic families to get a rough estimate from that.

[autumn sorrel]

PAVN number of killed enemy in each engagement is very much fairy tail

[supple sandal]

I need to find a casualties report that doesn't look like a mess

Okay so I think I found a solution

PAVN usually will have less manpower than whoever they are fighting

If the other side estimate (PAVN casualties) somehow larger than PAVN manpower then we got a problem

And about enemy killed claim

Either divide by 2 or 3

[grave ravine]

We now actually know the US had consistently been underestimating the scale of PAVN forces in Vietnam

Since they were estimating on the basis of heavy weapons counts

[narrow rover]

The amount of stuff still stuck in the US archives, man

[supple sandal]

So after ww2
France want to get back the colony to get the economy running again

But I think they would definitely save more money if they just give up on the idea

[autumn sorrel]

Weapon count is stupid, it is good for intel gathering but when you use it as benchmark for success, it skew the perspective

[supple sandal]

I know the reason is also to be more reliable ally against the Soviet but like

The US also throw money in during 1950-1954

[autumn sorrel]

Tell De Gaulle that, I dare you

[supple sandal]

If I know necromancy

And speak French

I rather learn necromancy than learning French

Okay I curious what would happen if I tell him that

[autumn sorrel]

Problem is that the French hasn't really comprehend how much money they gonna spend to maintain their oversea colonies after ww2 yet. By the time they do, they already committed to much to withdrawn without a clear victory or an honorable way out.

They was under the impression that they only need to disarm and process the Japanese PoW and they could easily crushed the Viet Minh with their superior military. Plus the CCP is still on the run and Chiang Kai Shek looks like he still have bigger chance to win the Chinese Civil War so to the French, it is too good of an opportunity too pass.

I mean, what will gonna oppose them? A bunch of farmers? French knew about the unruliness of Indochina, they have fought and crushed countless Vietnamese rebellion, so for them, Viet Minh is just another annoyance need to be remove.

[supple sandal]

Shits changed with the series of border operations by the Vietnamese to open up supplies line from China

[autumn sorrel]

Yes, that’s one was a game changer when it allowed the Viet Minh to receive much greater help from China.

[supple sandal]

I still find it funny that after Malaysia, British advisors keep telling French and American to get the fuck out of Vietnam but promptly get ignored

[random mountain]

What’s y’all opinion on this 1920-30s design for a med battleship

It’s got 3x3 15inch and 4x3 6inch

But the main part of the design is the bulges, these ballast tanks/torpedo bulges are there to weigh the ship down in combat thus giving it a lower profile

With a lower freeboard it means lower citiedal mostly and thus it’s more protected at the cost of speed but the tanks can be drained if not in combat for normal speed

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1825684361124995141

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

USNI Archives Photo of the Week

The battle for the Liberation of Paris began on this day, August 19th, 80 years ago, and was fought through the 25th of August, 1944.
(Credit: Official U.S. Army Photograph, Signal Corps).

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Twitter · Aug 20, 2024, 12:00 AM

[runic ermine]

There's a sense of irony that the Diepee raid and the beginning of the liberation of Paris are on the same day

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/CanadianForces/status/1825588527628701969
https://twitter.com/CanadianForces/status/1825588531516801384
https://twitter.com/CanadianForces/status/1825588534209888589
https://twitter.com/CanadianForces/status/1825588537657381132

Canadian Armed Forces (@CanadianForces) on X

#OTD in 1942, the Dieppe Raid, known as Operation JUBILEE, took place on the coast of France during the Second World War. Canadians made up the majority of the attackers, supported by Allied destroyers and air squadrons. 1/4

Twitter · Aug 19, 2024, 5:39 PM

Canadian Armed Forces (@CanadianForces) on X

This operation relied on the element of surprise. Just before dawn, four simultaneous flank attacks were planned, followed by one main attack on the town of Dieppe. This plan quickly changed when Allied troops encountered a small German convoy. 2/4

Twitter · Aug 19, 2024, 5:39 PM

Canadian Armed Forces (@CanadianForces) on X

The battle that ensued alerted German forces, making the Canadians' task almost impossible. Heavily fortified German troops quickly surrounded the Allied soldiers from high grounds. All attempts by Canadian soldiers to break through the occupation failed. 3/4

Twitter · Aug 19, 2024, 5:39 PM

Canadian Armed Forces (@CanadianForces) on X

In about nine hours, 907 Canadian soldiers lost their lives, 2,460 were wounded, and 1,946 were taken prisoner. But the Dieppe Raid was not in vain. It provided valuable lessons that led to the victorious D-Day invasion later in 1944. #CanadaRemembers 4/4

Twitter · Aug 19, 2024, 5:39 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1825711983355695260

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1981, two F-14s from VF-41 "Black Aces" shot down two Libyan Su-22 Fitters. The Gulf of Sidra incident marked the first air-to-air victories for U.S. Navy F-14 pilots. Iranian Air Force pilots had scored the first F-14 victories a year early against Iraqi aircraft.

Twitter · Aug 20, 2024, 1:50 AM

[terse mesa]

https://youtu.be/s_wzcrfiiw4?si=dcDdMQGcIvwHio2L

[mental tapir]

What was the Me 262's stall speed?

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1825738465973031052

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1945, a 16-man Japanese delegation arrived in Manila, Philippines to receive the Allies' instructions concerning surrender arrangements and initial occupation plan. The formal surrender ceremony took place two weeks later aboard USS Missouri.

Twitter · Aug 20, 2024, 3:35 AM