history

[heady sail]

Tbh you have to look for the BB 1936 design, U.P. 41 was a downgrade of that design.

That was the one the Italians reserved for themselves.

[manic latch]

Tho I love my Kor-2

[eternal veldt]

Indeed. We don't have information on the NdB 42,000 tons yet, sadly.

Up.41 was the 1935 design, IIRC.

[manic latch]

God seeing Soyuz launch a Kor-2

One day WT

[spring briar]

by the way

today is a very important day

https://twitter.com/navalinstitute/status/1757799889290056044

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1778, the Stars and Stripes received its first formal recognition from a foreign warship when the French ship of the line Robuste gave a nine-gun salute to the new U.S. flag flying on USS Ranger under the command of John Paul Jones.

Twitter · Feb 14, 2024, 4:12 PM

[wintry moat]

Hello gents

[narrow rover]

BTW where did you find this?

[narrow rover]

Sussy

[eternal veldt]

It's from a Russian book - Super Battleships of the Union was the title, I think.

[narrow rover]

Thanks

[eternal veldt]

hehe

white fla-

[spring briar]

yeah

it's a beautiful flag

[heady sail]

Yeah, the more expansive plans called for 4 aircraft carriers and 9 battleship, and lots of cruisers and DD, the more conservative, which was approved called for 2 aircraft carriers and 6 battleships.
The only ships who saw the lights of the day of the breakout fleet were the Capitani Romani class, the Cagni class subs, and the Sterope experimental oil tanker wich tested the large diesel engines.

[strong plank]

Early US and pre-revolution france

[eternal veldt]

btw Riche - in case you missed it.

[strong plank]

[narrow rover]

Hmm come to think of it the military anime community has to be fucking tiny for me to run into people I've seen elsewhere all the fucking time

[eternal veldt]

go figure, I mention Ro.43 and Pretz comes

[spring briar]

what do you mean by a gas problem

[heady sail]

The U.P. 41 in fact had an enclosed hangar.

[eternal veldt]

So did Littorio, in her early design stages.

It was removed in anticipation of the Ca.316, alongside the double catapult system.

[manic latch]

Nah

[manic latch]

А. М. Васильев
ЛИНЕЙНЫЕ КОРАБЛИ
ТИПА
СОВЕТСКИЙ СОЮЗ

My bible

Ish

[eternal veldt]

I mean, what are the cap's functions?

[spring briar]

to protect the capsule

[heady sail]

Other ships of the breakout fleet were, the improved Soldati class DD, armed with dp 120mm, the Costanzo Ciano cruisers, and some iterations called for a different range of pocket battleship, like the U.P. 90.

[eternal veldt]

ah, I misremembered - was thinking it was from this one.

Still packs loads of information, including one of my favourite mistranslations of all times

"Shitadel"

[manic latch]

Krem's Soyuz bibles
А. М. Васильев ЛИНЕЙНЫЕ КОРАБЛИ ТИПА СОВЕТСКИЙ СОЮЗ (Most detailed one about Soyuz, but Russian)

Mclaughlin's Soviet Battleships (best summary)

Warship 2021 (Also best summary on Soyuz section)

Warship 2022 (cool summary for Project 24)

And this book you show is kinda outdated but still useful

[manic latch]

Super Long Range shell of Stalingrad

Hope it gets added as gear to AL

[narrow rover]

I also have one of these in my bathroom

[eternal veldt]

There was an article on Pr.82 1949's model - I forgot which Warship was that

[heady sail]

My informations about soviet ships come from this and from articles of McLaughlin on Warship.

[eternal veldt]

The one cited for Petro

[narrow rover]

I call them: Red Yeet

[eternal veldt]

This one is good for understanding why the Soviets created the ship, but not much information on the ship's technical specifications.

[manic latch]

I think this one shows wrong belt for Project 24

[eternal veldt]

There are some interesting details like Kirov's disaster and ultimately her designer getting arrested.

[heady sail]

Warship 2023 has a good summary on U.P.41

[manic latch]

This is from my Russian Soyuz book

Machine translate of course

[narrow rover]

Honestly I can't believe Ansaldo designed that
It looks like something the Germans would come up with

[eternal veldt]

It's not that far from the Littorios, to be frank.

[heady sail]

No way, I think the only policy Azur Lane actually enforces is that the ships has to be laid before the end of WWII.

[eternal veldt]

The Littorio's deck armour is....insufficient, to say the least, and the Italians are well aware of it.

including some wacky proposals to weld 36mm plates directly to the deck.

[manic latch]

Early Soviet BB design KB-4

[heady sail]

Wdym?

[narrow rover]

No it's just... it straight up looks like Bismarck's armor

[eternal veldt]

If you're thinking that because of the splinter deck (the sloped edge), boys do I have news for you

[heady sail]

They did some improvement is deck armour on the Romas, I think.

[eternal veldt]

Richelieu and Dunkerque also has such a splinter deck, IIRC at 40mm and sloped

The "turtle deck" armour we often discuss is when that slope is used as the "strength deck" to defeat shells, rather than catching splinters

[heady sail]

I think the Italians used the triple bottom for their ships, this has only a double bottom.

[eternal veldt]

Hmm, that so? To my knowledge, Roma's main modification is to the bow only.

well, and the superstructure - the navigation and admiral bridge.

[narrow rover]

The French ones have a much steeper angle on their sloped decks iirc

[heady sail]

Yes, the bow and some minor improvements to the armour I think. Don't know exactly where right now tho.
I'm halfway a book on the Littorios lol.
Kinda had to pause due to university exams.

[spring briar]

great stuff

[chilly osprey]

Afaik no improvements were made to Roma's armor

[heady sail]

Ok, I was misremembering

Sorry.

[narrow rover]

Possibly the best armor of any Treaty battleship

[chilly osprey]

Improvements were the better bow shape, sonar, and AA fire control

[narrow rover]

Littorio's main deck goes down to 100mm in machinery areas right?

That's actually... pretty sh*t

[eternal veldt]

All things considered, the minor improvements to Roma changed neither the general characteristics nor the performance of the ship, except for a few modifications that allowed the engines greater responsiveness at cruising speeds.

[chilly osprey]

For the main armor deck, yes.

Though that's also technically not the only layer

[spring briar]

this is a crazy section

[eternal veldt]

The difference was 313 tonnes than Littorio and 483 more than VV.

[narrow rover]

Almost 230mm of deck armor

[eternal veldt]

The machinery is 100 and 150 over magazines.

[heady sail]

Yeah, sorry, definitely misremembering.

[chilly osprey]

Since to reach the armor deck you have to go either through the upper deck (36mm on 9mm) or upper belt/bulkheads (70mm).

[eternal veldt]

Unfortunately Roma just eats her coup de grace right in the machinery area next to the magazines.

[narrow rover]

Fritz-X go boom

[chilly osprey]

Additionally, worth noting the 150mm portions extend past the magazines, covering parts of the turbine rooms.

[spring briar]

huh
never realised that richie had a "triple" bottom on her mags

[heady sail]

Didn't they drop the Pugliese TDS in favour of bulkheads of UP 41 because they feared the possibility of some shells penetrating the thin 40mm internal armour?

[narrow rover]

Doesn't Yammy straight up have a 25mm plate attached to the bottom of her magazine?

[eternal veldt]

Jane's: understood, conflating that to 6" strength deck and 4" weather deck

[eternal veldt]

[chilly flower]

The Ro.43 is certainly superior in range and sheer endurance, with a 4 to 8 hour flight time that it made good use of during many of the Mediterranean clashes- but it's main problems compared to some of the more modern (and purpose-built) scout and observation types of the time like the 196 are fragility and poor seakeeping. The Ro.43, adapted from the Aeronautica's Ro.37 reconnaissance aircraft as an interim seaplane design until something more modern could take to the stage, somewhat lacked in a general structural integrity for naval operations, particularly in resistance to salt water corrosion and general shock, whether from gunfire (though largely applicable to ships using the bow catapult arrangement or the aft of the Littorios) or simply hard landings and less than perfect sea conditions, in addition to lackluster water handling (though, this didn't stop some crews from sailing their Ro.43s for well over 24 hours when forced down onto the sea from an engine failrue, there's actually a few incidents where it stayed afloat for much longer than you'd expect). Both of these limitations, among others, largely led to it's use involving flying to nearby ports and seaplane bases after completing a sortie, rather than returning back to the ship directly (though in fairness they could continue to carry out missions from that port if not relying on another Ro.43 launched from the fleet, and furthermore it was generally a good idea concerning ship safety rather than having aircraft embarked at all times). If it weren't for the nature of the Mediterranean war, and the Ro.43's own strengths such as range, it's weaknesses would otherwise be unacceptable in a shipborne seaplane.

[narrow rover]

Oh it's... 50mm

[heady sail]

If only they launched their catapult fighter to provide some escort.

[eternal veldt]

They did, IIRC.

[chilly flower]

They had, funnily enough- after the Dorniers attacked.

[eternal veldt]

the Re.2000s could not reach the altitude and returned to base.

[spring briar]

how would this help

[chilly flower]

Only Vittorio's was launched, and it failed to climb up in time to do anything

Littorio's was damaged and jettisoned overboard

and Roma's went down with the ship

[narrow rover]

Iirc the Germans didn't exactly come loudly

[eternal veldt]

See, this is why you should protect your cute little seaplanes

looking at you, USN, smh, smh

[spring briar]

Gascogne under deck garage

[eternal veldt]

RN: Structural integrity weakness

[narrow rover]

Or Fisher's incomparable

The ship with no superstructure

[eternal veldt]

But honestly, no ideal solution

[chilly osprey]

Rough edit but this is what the coverage at the battery deck actually looked like. As you can see, the coverage over the turbine rooms is split fairly evenly between the 150mm and 100mm sections, and leaving the turbogenerator groups under the 150mm armor.

[eternal veldt]

put it in the middle, it lights up for everyone to target you

put it at the back, it obstructs firing, unless you're an all forward design

[chilly flower]

I dunno, I think the innovative sea sled is indicative enough of how much they care

[heady sail]

At the beginning the admiral didn't open fire on the Germans bombers. Moreover really bad luck with the Fritz X centering the ammos.

[narrow rover]

What's with Germans and trick shots

[eternal veldt]

Just joking about the battleships not having it

[chilly flower]

Oh no, they do have the sled

just no hangars

[eternal veldt]

I mean hangar, and yea, they have the sled

[narrow rover]

It goes down to 90mm huh

[chilly flower]

excusable enough for the BBs tbh, rather than trying to fit one into the stern as a vulnerable space

[eternal veldt]

Come to think of it, is that a system that the US used?

To my memory, most ships just have their seaplanes taxi to the crane and take them up.

[heady sail]

Littorio was also hit. But survived. Also the Roma was already hit but the bomb exploded out of the ship.

[chilly flower]

yes, the sea sled was standard issue for the USN

[spring briar]

: )

[chilly flower]

It's why all US shipborne seaplanes had a book on the bottom of the pontoon, and also used single-pontoon configurations in their designs

[narrow rover]

Would be a shame if something jammed that door shut

[chilly osprey]

Not that I know of. Or, at least if it was a consideration, it was a minor one.

With the '41,000-ton' battleship design UP.41 was derived from, they knew they weren't bound by a low displacement from the start relative to what they wanted.

The Pugliese system's main advantage was the high protection it achieved at a relatively low weight cost, compared to conventional bulkheads systems. It was, however, more volume-intensive than other systems, reduced available volume inside the hull for other systems.

So with the new design, because the displacement was so much higher from the start, they felt no need to pursue weight savings in the TDS and just opted for something heavier but less volume intensive, and hopefully even more effective, from the start.

[heady sail]

Yeah, the US used that.

They were also the first to completely drop hydroplanes.

[chilly flower]

only really the Germans experimented with a similar system at some point but never adopted it for whatever reason (perhaps something to do with the twin pontoons they often used)

[chilly flower]

Ehhh, not entirely

[eternal veldt]

God, I hate how garbage the Kindle version of the book is

[chilly osprey]

On the outboard sections that aren't over the 'citadel', yes.

[eternal veldt]

150 pixels for your plans of the Littorios, take it or leave it

[spring briar]

you mean the sled?

[chilly flower]

For observation roles certainly, gunfire spotting was completely obsolete compared to systems introduced in the USN like radar fire control assistance

[chilly osprey]

💯

It drives me up the wall

[chilly flower]

aye

[spring briar]

we had it too

[chilly flower]

Ahhh, wasn't aware

[heady sail]

Ok, as I said I read that info in the McLaughlin article on Warship 2023.

[narrow rover]

Aside from the U-boat rotor kite, did anyone think of deploying towed gliders or something to assist with spotting aboard BBs or something?

[heady sail]

Yes, sorry, they also used cranes like everybody else, but they were the first to drop reconnaissance planes since radar become capable enough.

[eternal veldt]

That's what the catapult planes are for- gliders wouldn't really work.

[eternal veldt]

The purpose of the plane is to observe the fall of shot and report it back to the ship - so that adjustments can be made.

[chilly osprey]

The RM briefly looked at using autogyros on the Littorio's (not just for spotting, though).

At least until the Air Force went and said 'no you can't have those' right after the trials on Fiume...

[narrow rover]

✅

[eternal veldt]

Don't let bin know it

otherwise they'll make another abomination of a Littorio with a helicopter deck on it

[narrow rover]

I'm going to assume those trials on Fiume went horribly

[spring briar]

here ya go

[chilly osprey]

Oh god

[eternal veldt]

Something something Littorio '59

[heady sail]

They also tested them on some cruisers, or I'm always misremembering?

[eternal veldt]

"It can be assumed that Italy managed to keep both Littorio class battleships and use them in a training capacity"

[heady sail]

The Italians really would have liked.

[eternal veldt]

Oh, that I'm sure.

[chilly flower]

For scouting and sea rescue though, they still very much had value to the USN, enough so that all three of the main types (SOC Seagull, OS2U Kingfisher, and the late-arrival SC Seahawk, which specifically was tailored for scouting work) were still in use on many Cruisers and Battleships at the end of the war, and also in the postwar years until about 1949, when Helicopters fully replaced them for utility and sea rescue (and they had been outpaced technologically anyways)

[heady sail]

They scapped them in the 60s or something.

[chilly osprey]

No, actually.

I mean, it wasn't something that was going to be militarily useful in the short term but otherwise went well.

The main thing was that the Air Force took them over as soon as they realized the navy was trying to get around the ban on fixed-wing aircraft for the navy.

[eternal veldt]

But, Roma inconveniently sank herself and the WAllies don't really want the Soviets to get a Littorio.

[chilly flower]

[chilly osprey]

They trialed them on Fiume

[chilly flower]

also oooooo, wasn't actually aware of Autogyro trials on Fiume

[eternal veldt]

So, happiest solution for them is send them to the scrapyard.

[chilly osprey]

Hang on, I have photos

[heady sail]

Oh, yes, sorry, was thinking of the city. Lol

[chilly flower]

(Hence "Observation")

[heady sail]

Also they held on on the Aquila until 1953.

[spring briar]

Here on Foch

[eternal veldt]

Or, if you're the Japanese, have another just for recon.

[narrow rover]

"After WW2, Japan was allowed to have a coastal defense force: under a peculiar condition, that their warships be restricted to their remaining WW2 vintages for the next 30 years."

[eternal veldt]

E13A is observation, F1M is recon, IIRC.

[chilly flower]

Oh wait, now I remember these

[manic latch]

Imagine her twerking with that

[heady sail]

Also the US were ready to give Italy a independence class carrier and a commencement bay class escort carrier, tho for economical and political problems it went anywhere.

[narrow rover]

Sad that gyroplanes never really took off

[eternal veldt]

Did they just build the deck on Fiume?

[chilly osprey]

Yup

[eternal veldt]

I can see what looks like the turret on the first picture - I'm guessing they just built the deck on part of the deck.

[chilly osprey]

40 meters long, 15 meters wide at the start thinning to 10 meters at the end

[heady sail]

They only got SBC2 to form an air squadron.

[chilly osprey]

Brief article on the experiment;

https://www.militarystory.org/lesperimento-autogiro-sullincrociatore-fiume/

I believe they were just S2C's, specifically

ASW version, not bomber

They actually gave some to the navy

Flew off an American carrier

Landed at Naples

And the air force had Carabineri on site to arrest the pilots

[screaming]

[heady sail]

Yeah, that ones

[chilly flower]

The difference is that the USN sea sled is placed alongside the ship, suspended by the catapult, rather than trailing directly behind

[heady sail]

They trained some people in preparation to a possible acquisition of a carrier by Italy.

[chilly flower]

One of Alaska's seahawks trapping on the sled

[heady sail]

Yeah, was thinking of that before.

[chilly flower]

Still, the French system would be beneficial too I imagine

[heady sail]

The law that allowed the air force to control every fixed wing aircraft was scrapped in 1989.

For some years Garibaldi only had helicopters.

[chilly osprey]

Indeed

First Harriers were delivered in 1991 iirc

[heady sail]

Harriers, my beloved.

Kinda sad that they are getting replaced by the F35.

[chilly osprey]

Have to replace them at some point

And even if the AV-8B+ could punch above their weight with their radar and AMRAAMs

[heady sail]

Btw hope one day WT adds the Hawker siddley p.1204 or something, the supersonic Harrier.

[chilly osprey]

F-35B is so much better in basically every way

It's not even an evolution in capability, so much as it is a revolution in capability, for GRUPAER

[heady sail]

The Pegasus engine is a masterpiece.

I'm not convinced about the F35 central fan.

Litteraly a development of the yak38 and yak141, lol.

[spring briar]

[heady sail]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_P.1154

[eternal veldt]

Makes me wonder if they'll toss the stacked director system once they actually find out with what's reported at Dakar.

[spring briar]

Clem and especially Gas not being built was a tragedy

[eternal veldt]

Come to think of it, I dont think the Littorios had issues with their stacked rangefinders despite being bomb and torpedo shocked all the time.

[spring briar]

does seem more sturdy on the Litto's?

(no clue)

[eternal veldt]

Was wondering if it was because of shoddy work on Richelieu

[alpine onyx]

Poor Gascogne

Would've appreciated

[eternal veldt]

Because Dunkek seemed to eat Terre Nueve's depth charges without director shock - though at that point director shock is the last of her issues

[alpine onyx]

Spee x 3

[spring briar]

we'll never know

[chilly flower]

Aha, found the photos on Rod's warbirds

(D-ISFD) (TJ+HB) vkz (T3+HB) WrkN2522 Being Hoisted On Board with Use of Special Recovery Mat KMS Gneisenau During Sea Trials Travemunde Germany 1939  (153K)```

[spring briar]

did the littorio's take torps in shallow water?

[chilly osprey]

Littorio did at Taranto, yes

Which magnified the damage to a degree

[spring briar]

were her directors trained to some direction?

where did the torp hit?

[chilly osprey]

Most of the gun directors should have been at rest

idk if the 90mm battery went into action? Actual specifics on the AA fire from the ships is pretty limited.

[chilly osprey]

Which one? :p

(there were three)

[spring briar]

yeah no clue

[eternal veldt]

Tbh, I dont think where it hits matters too much since Richelieu got smacked near the shaft

Same as VV by Urge at one point

[spring briar]

sounds like richie's directors that high up on the mast were just too heavy
causing them to sway back and forth after the hit which ripped the clips and bearings

[eternal veldt]

The only BB that I remember has director/turret shock of similar seriousness is Tirpitz

With the explosives from the subs IIRC

[chilly osprey]

That I can tell, none of the Littorio's had their directors taken offline by shocks

Unless you want to count Roma

But...

[eternal veldt]

Well...Roma...

Whole pugliese tower caved in, no saving that

[spring briar]

could have been that the hits on Littorio wre more lateral
and the one on richie more from the bottom
the aft hit on Litto is a bit higher up than the one on richie
so the shock was more in the axial direction of the mast
causing the clips to be under more stress

[chilly flower]

-and I also just discovered a thread that seems to give more context for both the German and French recovery mats, likely both being the Hein mat (also used by the Swedish Navy and the British during the interwar period)
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=201550
I imagine the amidships catapult and aviation deck placement on most Royal Navy and German ship designs by WW2 probably precluded further use of the Hein mat system with those navies, as it seems to be largely reliant on a stern arrangement and may be unwieldly to tow alongside via crane (as in the Ar 196 photo, the only use of the mat with that type as operationally they relied on the standard unassisted recovery procedure, likewise with the RN) compared to the smaller, newer USN sea sled

[spring briar]

idk

[eternal veldt]

That'd make sense. Always find it a bit weird to see Jordan trying to word it like its a big sin of the French BBs.

[spring briar]

I think Marzin was absolutely right to mention it

I'm a chemical engineer and design plants
which we assume will work
but there's always issues you never think about

[eternal veldt]

Sounds like my job.

[spring briar]

the thing I would expect on Richie to be subpar due to the speedy construction was the welds

mostly the welds near the top

[eternal veldt]

I remember Shiki railing on about French 20' steel quality as well?

What was it again? Wrecked French steel industry or something else?

[spring briar]

nothing with the steel quality
just the type of steel used wasn't armor grade construction steel from 1922-1930ish

due to massive tax on the french steel industry

this is why the Duguay Trouins and early french CA's have so little armor

all the weight that would normally be allocated to armor went into thicker plates and beams for the hull

to reach the same strenght as if the hull were built from armor grade steel

this is also a reason for the seamingly big disconnect between the Suffrens and Algérie
and between the DT's and the La gals

[eternal veldt]

Tax as in, the steel industry is costly, or the industry not free to make armour because of rebuilding France?

[spring briar]

both

[chilly osprey]

This is the relevant section from Jordan & Moulin;

[eternal veldt]

Ah, got it. Thanks to both. 👍

[spring briar]

Phoenix

imagine

Duquesne with actual armor grade construction steel

[chilly osprey]

I want to kitbash a first generation treaty cruiser between France and Italy

Think of the things we could accomplish together

[spring briar]

give me your steel boy

[spring briar]

Italo-French treaty cruiser "Solferino"

[chilly osprey]

Perfect name

Our steel, your (203mm) guns

Well, technically the 203/50's used by the Trento-class were part French anyways

[spring briar]

Solferino class treaty cruisers:

• Solferino
• Montebello
• Magenta

[chilly osprey]

They were Schneider-Ansaldo guns

[spring briar]

am I forgetting any battles?

• Varese

[chilly osprey]

There was a French presence at Palestro, too

[spring briar]

nvm Varese is fully Italian

uhh

[chilly osprey]

Which is also notably the last battle in European history a King rode into battle

[spring briar]

magnificent

[runic ermine]

I know the last king who was beside his troops in combat was Albert I

[spring briar]

my king : )

[spring briar]

whose interior design

[chilly osprey]

I would lean towards French on this one since they don't use seperately mounted guns

[spring briar]

I remembered another name

[chilly osprey]

And the ammunition replenishment of the Italian 203/50's was pretty mid

[runic ermine]

However it is also worth noting that Victor Emanuel III also frequently visited the frontlines in both world wars

[chilly osprey]

Though the 203/53's have a much better argument for them, aside from the damn common cradle mounting.

[spring briar]

one can only imagine

oh hey

[visual rover]

Jacob van Heemskerck class Anti-Aircraft Warfare Frigates 1986-2005
and
De Zeven Provinciën class Air-Defence and Command Frigates 2002-now

[spring briar]

Le Brestois zoomin

Le Basque

@chilly osprey

delay fuze hull piercing torpedo

[chilly osprey]

I wonder if they built a prototype

[spring briar]

not sure

jesus

inflation in 1928

when the Vauquelins were being built

they were 24% more expensive than the aigles

[chilly osprey]

yup

[spring briar]

and the Fantas were 28% more expensive than them

73 million francs each

about 1/3 of the cost of Dunkerque herself

which really shows that machinery costs a lot

[chilly osprey]

Machinery, guns and gun fire control tend to be the most expensive parts of any ship, yeah

Followed by armor

[spring briar]

The Fantasques are still something of a religious/biblical class of ship to me

maybe mystefying is a better word

[spring briar]

I can't believe the Italians named a destroyer Lanzerotto Malocello

[ivory ridge]

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

should've called her

Panettone

[spring briar]

what

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/mr-fresh-mr-fresh-cat-paranoia-hello-street-cat-cat-eating-gif-12431421677323781872

[spring briar]

: )

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1757876934967738554

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

Because the Navy needed more ships during WWII but the shipyards were already working at full capacity, 24 destroyer escorts were primarily built in the Rocky Mountains and then transported by rail in sections to be assembled 1000 miles away at Mare Island.
#WarshipWednesday

Twitter · Feb 14, 2024, 9:18 PM

[visual rover]

De Zeven Provinciën class ADCF-Frigates support escort landing ships

[maiden citrus]

lots of nice discussion to read

[fierce sparrow]

https://twitter.com/JonHawkes275/status/1757799042204024983

Jon Hawkes (@JonHawkes275) on X

1/ Japan's Future Amphibious Technology Research (FAT-R). The oft-overlooked work to really push the envelope of AAV tech that is actually making some great strides in the background.

A short summary 🧵

Twitter · Feb 14, 2024, 4:08 PM

Umm... Did Japan just researching their own EFV???

[runic ermine]

Oh boy I can't wait for someone to leak classified documents of this

[runic ermine]

But seriously what the hell is that design

[frozen kestrel]

i don't have money to register...

[desert agate]

Just leaving this here

[ivory ridge]

[eternal veldt]

Everything is an F-35/F-22

[desert agate]

F-22

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWYLgEU_92M

[manic latch]

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/are-missile-cruisers-a-better-option-than-corvettes/

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_of_Tronçais
@tough quail @spring briar

Love its story

"The forest is not a relic of the primeval forest that once covered most of France, but was organized by Jean-Baptiste Colbert in 1670. With forethought for the requirements of the French Navy two hundred years hence, the Colbert Forest was planted as an oak grove. The oaks were interplanted with beeches and larches to encourage their growth for favourable timber for ship's masts: straight, tall, and free of knots.
But by the time the trees were fully mature, the navy was rapidly switching from sail to steam"

[runic ermine]

Fun fact. The top scoring western allied tank ace was Canadian

[junior trench]

that heavily depends upon how you count non-turreted cannon armed armored vehicles

[desert agate]

I would be keeping an eye on BAEs recent proposals to the RAN

type 83 or upgunned Hunter

there's really no feasible option for building anything that isnt BAE

[runic ermine]

True. The top allied one was Soviet

[junior trench]

non sequitur

[manic latch]

15 February 1944 two Soviet engineers proposed equipping Sherman tanks with 85 mm S-53 guns either in the original turret or a transplanted T-34 turret

[runic ermine]

No I think his name was Dmitry Lavrinenko

[junior trench]

[ivory ridge]

[runic ermine]

Oh sorry my Latin isn't the best

[frozen kestrel]

[steel rapids]

The creative never stops

[frozen kestrel]

Maybe they should have

[humble jewel]

Oh... so the Radley-Walters medal I keep on getting in WoT was Canadian all along?

[humble jewel]

What in the fu-

[runic ermine]

I mean the Soviets also did this

[steel rapids]

This is why the German loss

[runic ermine]

I want it in enlisted

[manic latch]

It's a very good gun

57mm

Likely third best Soviet gun for tank hunting after 100mm and 85mm

[steel rapids]

It will be a premium vehicle

[runic ermine]

War thunder

[junior trench]

it's a 57mm that's almost the same weight as the PaK 40

[manic latch]

Firing 3 kg shell at a muzzle velocity of 990 m/s ye

[runic ermine]

I feel like you got something against the Soviets. Yeah they weren't the best and morally questionable at times but they did help in final victory

[manic latch]

British 6 pounder was 2.3kg firing at 850m/s

So it's much better than that gun too

[runic ermine]

Also 57mm

[manic latch]

Yup

Soviet one fires heavier and faster shell

But is heavier gun as consequence

[runic ermine]

But what's the ZiS-30's penatration

[junior trench]

112mm @ 90 degrees @ 100 meters @ 75% criteria

[runic ermine]

Thanks

[junior trench]

~121mm @ 90degrees @ 100 meters @ 50% criteria

though I guess I should grab the 500m numbers considering the available comparisons

[humble jewel]

What da hellll

[runic ermine]

Ivan and Boris got drunk on vodka and turned an APC into a decent tank destoryer

[humble jewel]

Also this

[humble jewel]

Vodka bruh I swear

[runic ermine]

I think japan also tried that

[humble jewel]

Vodka drinkers were the only successful ones though

[runic ermine]

Yeah Japan's was only a mock up

[humble jewel]

I'd rather get an A-40 over any tank Japan put out back in those days

[manic latch]

Christie's concept

[runic ermine]

Japanese tanks were worse than Italy's

[humble jewel]

I forgot about Italy 💀

[humble jewel]

Somehow that gun looks way more inefficient than an anti-tank rifle...

[strong plank]

an apc for little plastic army men maybe

[manic latch]

La creatura

[strong plank]

is it an apc if the only personnel it carries are the crew

[desert agate]

and its a factual statement?

[strong plank]

🤔

[runic ermine]

Yes

[junior trench]

1250kg ZiS-2
~111mm @ 90 degrees @ 500 meters @ 50% criteria with a 3.14 kg projectile @ 990 m/s

1425kg Pak 40
~132mm @ 90 degrees @ 500 meters @ 50% criteria with a 6.80 kg projectile @ 790 m/s

1215kg OQF 6-pounder
~112mm @ 90 degrees @ 500 meters @ 50% criteria with a 2.85/2.86 kg projectile @ 853/892 m/s

[runic ermine]

Isn't the PaK 40 75mm?

[desert agate]

we stan the 6 pounder

[wintry moat]

6 pounder go Thunk

[junior trench]

ammunition quality/design choices biting the Soviet gun in the ass

[junior trench]

ZiS-2
111mm actual, 97mm Krupp estimate, 114% Krupp

Pak 40
132mm actual, 99mm Krupp estimate, 133% Krupp

OQF 6-pdr
112mm actual, 79-83mm Krupp estimate, 135-142% Krupp

[manic latch]

Soviet curse
Good gun
Bad ammo

[ivory ridge]

krill issue

[narrow rover]

Where the fuck did they take that photo lol

Oh wait polar bears do live in Siberia

[manic latch]

Chukchi Peninsula

[narrow rover]

I think Soviet crack was more potent than German ones

[narrow rover]

Yea but in Japan you get to mow down barely trained Chinese
In Russia you face Germans with actual heavy tanks

[junior trench]

ran a few other numbers to make a vague trend

90mm M3 w/ M82 produced an actual vs Krupp of ~132%

OQF 17-pdr w/ APCBC produced an actual vs Krupp of ~139%

8.8 cm Flak 36 w/ PzGr. 39 produced an actual vs Krupp of ~137%

85mm D-5T/ZiS-S-53 w/ APBC produced an actual vs Krupp of ~113%

76mm F-34 w/ APHE produced an actual vs Krupp of ~84%

75mm M3 w/ M61 APC produced an actual vs Krupp of ~105%

[manic latch]

Kinda wish KV-220 was mass produced before 1941, she was basically Soviet Tiger with a 107mm gun that should be very useful when fighting with a tiger 1

Second prototype that is

107 mm ZiS-6

[runic ermine]

Some of them only had swords

[manic latch]

Damn

[runic ermine]

Also known as the Da Dao

[narrow rover]

Supposedly several recorded sword 1v1s with the Japanese

[runic ermine]

Which is fucking metal. Literally

[narrow rover]

And the Japanese Army in their infinite wisdom only really trained their officers to 1v1, not actually useful things in war like... quickly drawing your sword

[narrow rover]

just use kv1

[manic latch]

That's the problem

She use 76mm

Wasn't good against Tigers

[narrow rover]

According to korean wiki the Kv-220 had engine issues, and if the Soviets care about that Iirc it was as bad as the Porsche tiger or worse

[narrow rover]

Oh and Japanese bayonet training programs from that era survives to this day

[manic latch]

Which tank didn't had engine issues lol

[spring briar]

Krem

[manic latch]

Didn't US fixed GAA engine only around 1944

[narrow rover]

Well... not many to the extent of the Porsche Tiger

[spring briar]

Krem

[manic latch]

Rich

[spring briar]

Menshikov

[narrow rover]

Hi Krem, I'm Roon

[manic latch]

Funny hair

[spring briar]

Not that one

[steel rapids]

Big ass sword

[spring briar]

This one

[manic latch]

Omniman

[narrow rover]

Look something like 50% of men from 1920 previous are omni men

[manic latch]

Use this picture Rich

His chad version

[runic ermine]

Bayonets can still be useful

[narrow rover]

Yea it's just that I find it funny that someone was fucking dense enough to try to turn that into a school curriculum in the aftermath of WW2

[spring briar]

Pre Inkerman

Better times

[steel rapids]

Hanz you dumbass

[narrow rover]

Just steal it from some poor Russian guy

[steel rapids]

They are armed with fucking mosin and ppsh

[spring briar]

I don’t really see the issue

[strong plank]

This is not a memes channel

[narrow rover]

💀

[steel rapids]

History meme

[narrow rover]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70ij7B8ltZE

[steel rapids]

Ok that's not histoy💀

[narrow rover]

"Look Satoshi I know you love history but it is really annoying to everyone if you yell Banzai every practice okay??"

[steel rapids]

Bro remember his past

[runic ermine]

Modern Russian armored trains

Thoughts?

[strong plank]

Pretty much useless

[narrow rover]

Putin's moving castle

[runic ermine]

One sec I think I have a chart

[strong plank]

Its armed to deal with

the one threat that’ll never be sent to attack it

infantry

[manic latch]

[strong plank]

It’s got inadequate aa for its size

[manic latch]

AA against what

[narrow rover]

Nothing

[strong plank]

and all you need is a good hit with an anti-tank missile to mess the whole thing up

[narrow rover]

Unless you make it like that Yugoslav armored train

[strong plank]

Because the funny thing about trains is they’re all connected up

It’s not like a column of separate trucks

You hit it near the front and you’ve stopped the whole thing in its tracks

[manic latch]

Yup

Hellcat turret

[strong plank]

And while I won’t argue that gun-based shorad isn’t effective

The size of the asset you’re protecting, and the fact that said asset is very restricted in its mobility

[runic ermine]

They gave them little names

[strong plank]

leads me to conclude that a handful of ZSUs aren’t going to stop a determined attack

[runic ermine]

I forgot what that one was called

[manic latch]

Rivers which makes sense

Or lakes

[strong plank]

blow up a section of track or hit one of the lead cars with a TOW and congratulations

you’ve done much more damage than if you’d hit a single truck with the same munition

[runic ermine]

I think that they're more for logistics rather than attacks

[manic latch]

Duh

It's a train

[maiden citrus]

I am a big fan of armored trains

[strong plank]

Yes because in a war

The enemy absolutely never attacks logistics

That’s illegal

[runic ermine]

Same

[strong plank]

Arming them like the russkies have is just a half measure

[maiden citrus]

yeah

[manic latch]

Thus you armor the logistics

[strong plank]

Sticking a few ZSUs on will protect it from like

Drone attacks and not too much else

[maiden citrus]

though I do like them a lot, one of my fictional nations uses them heavily due to their mountainous terrain

[manic latch]

And infantry but as you said they need to reach rails first

[strong plank]

Like I said, a half measure

[manic latch]

Don't see any damaged trains yet

[strong plank]

You’re putting a bunch of eggs in one basket and then half-heartedly reinforcing the basket

It’s more a propaganda measure than anything significantly practical

[manic latch]

Eggs have boxes yeah

Reduce their chance of cracking

US's Rail Escort Vehicle (REV)

Not sure how much is the armor but it's there

designed to protect shipments of radioactive waste and house mission-relevant security personnel.

[runic ermine]

A partisan group claimed to destroy one during the battle of mariupol or melitopol but failed to provide proof

You know like images of a wreak

[runic ermine]

But drones are a big factor

I think the trains themselves have their own drones

Which makes sense because one of their roles is reconnaissance apparently

[strong plank]

It’s not capable of taking down a dedicated drone attack

As in

More than 2-3 coming in at once

If it was made the priority target of an attack, it’d be gone

[manic latch]

Coming from where

As you said it's a logistics unit

Thing doesn't roam around Frontline

Rcs drones lose signals at certain ranges

[strong plank]

Yet it somehow also has the reconnaissance role?

[manic latch]

Don't think you would use a train over drones for that

Hell I never heard train reconnaissance ever

[strong plank]

Neither had I

[manic latch]

Oh wait seems it's a case?

"The War in Egypt, the Ironclad Train during the Reconnaissance of 28 July"

Tho these people didn't had planes back then

Or drones

[runic ermine]

Listing the armaments of each:
Yenisei:
1 30 mm autocannon 2A42
1 ZU-23-2 cannon
Machine Gun slots (I think they're PKMs)
And 82-BM-37 mortars

Volga:
2 ZU-23-2 cannons
Machine gun slots

Amur:
1 ZU-23-2 cannon
1 Kamysh M4K electronic warfare system

Baikal:
2 ZU-23-2 cannons
1 Kamysh M4K electronic warfare system
1 unknown anti-air missile system
2-4 Machine gun emplacements
2 AGS-17 grenade launchers

[manic latch]

This is from 2016 for example

[runic ermine]

Yes. Baikal and her sister Amur (yes they are shes) are from 2016 and have since been upgraded

[strong plank]

Those are all well and good but you’re still taking a logistical asset not meant for near-frontline service and putting it there

Without addressing the main flaw with putting it there

[manic latch]

Flaw of putting the rails?

Does need big hindsight

[runic ermine]

I remember reading that they dumped off some BMPs and soldiers and pulled back

[strong plank]

Trains are not particularly known for their off-road performance

they can only go where there’s a track

[manic latch]

There is one...

Soviet Diesel-Electric 12×12 Overlanding Train

[strong plank]

And not only that but again

You hit it on the right car and the whole thing is stopped

[runic ermine]

Probably why they are rushing into combat with these

[manic latch]

Ye

[runic ermine]

At most dropping off soldiers and BMPs

[manic latch]

It's a logistic unit

Carry drop go back

Repeat

[runic ermine]

I remember reading about it

[manic latch]

Trains are best logistic units

[runic ermine]

Because there's rail behind you

[manic latch]

Especially for tanks

Ships are cool but they can't go on land

Big Planes barely enough to carry 1 or 2

[runic ermine]

They're kinda acting like on land landing ships

[runic ermine]

And Russia has specialized units for rail stuff
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Railway_Troops

[manic latch]

Realized a painful death

In May 1951 a passenger train hit a Sherman tank, killing its crew (except one who jumped out before the impact)

Crew likely hit their heads into tank so hard

[runic ermine]

Ow

[steel rapids]

Oh fuck

[elfin steeple]

I mean wasn't a big part of the reds taking over from the whites through railways from leningrad?

so I can get the train love

also tbf I feel like the armored trains are mainly to quickly transport stuff without risk of sabotage

which kooky mf is gonna smuggle anti tank weaponry into russia, station near one of the tracks and fire?

if it was a truck delivering assets, just have a gang with guns and shoot the driver and guards

with the train not only will it never be able to be blocked by traffic, saboteurs can't easily ambush it with just some guns

also I feel like it would better stand the weather, trucks can slip on ice, have poorer mileage when its cold, etc...

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1758214607037202567

[runic ermine]

Rest in peace, hero

[steel rapids]

Man it must have been horrible to be a hospital corpsman during Pearl Harbor btw rest in peace war hero

[visual rover]

“Anti-Submarine Warfare Frigate (ASWF)” future 2028/2029 new ship for Netherlands Navy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Submarine_Warfare_Frigate_(Koninklijke_Marine)

[spring briar]

Sleek

[frozen kestrel]

What's a good resource for finding weather reports for the North Atlantic? I'm particularly looking for records between May 24th and May 27th, 1941

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1758328060817141774

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1898, an explosion sank USS Maine in Havana Harbor, killing 266 men. Tom, the "Senior Cat of the Navy," became a national celebrity after being found in the Maine's wreckage. He had singed fur and a wounded foot but quickly resumed his rat catching duties on another ship.

Twitter · Feb 16, 2024, 3:10 AM

[zealous vine]

I want to know about general torpedo development from ww1 up till ww2.

More specifically, comparisons between each navy's torp tech, and how they evolved throughout. If there's a free source I can read from, feel free to inform me about it, or if you wish to write here, that's fine by me.

[remote monolith]

https://www.sci.news/paleontology/jiangxititan-ganzhouensis-12685.html

Titanosaur fans rejoicing rn

[eternal veldt]

Was reading the account of the sinking of Repulse again, and found this tidbit after abandon ship was ordered:

Many men speak of the courage of a young Australian, Midshipman R.I. Davies, who was last seen strapped to his Oerlikon gun still firing at a Japanese aircraft and cursing anyone who got in the way of his sights. He was never seen again. He was awarded a posthumous Mention in Dispatches.

Aussies truly are built different

[remote monolith]

god damn https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2024/02/fe4b359cdf0f-tyrannosaurid-jawbone-fossil-found-for-1st-time-in-japan.html

a Japanese Tyrannosaurid

now this is unprecedented

[maiden citrus]

https://tenor.com/view/star-trek-gif-21434460

[manic latch]

Me in Soyuz's quad 37mm 46-K

[alpine onyx]

Here we see Krem on his Soyuz... if he had one

[eternal veldt]

[eternal veldt]

You just jinxed it with the next event being RU. Good job.

[tacit wadi]

Can't really say they jinxed it considering that we already had this info beforehand

Although we can't say for sure we're finally getting Soyuz

But surely devs don't have the audacity to keep her in NPC jail any longer

[manic latch]

This Perdition will finally end

[alpine onyx]

I mean, sure as hell wished for someone to jinx me with Hermes

But fate is cruel

just like it was to Hermes

[autumn sorrel]

NP event coming, Soyuz wife is coming

Does Scot Highlander ever fight as light infantry before WW1 or are they strictly shock infantry formation?

[narrow rover]

Sussus amogus

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3s6k0I8ehs

[manic latch]

@spring briar 1K113 " Smelchak" guided weapon system for 240 mm

[spring briar]

Looks complex

[junior trench]

meanwhile

[spring briar]

Ya

[desert agate]

not the last time such a thing would happen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teddy_Sheean

only enlisted sailor to have a Collins class submarine named after him

[spring briar]

The absolute advantage of Western electronics

[tough quail]

[spring briar]

Currently being used it seems

[tough quail]

I'd prolly be careful posting a barge with Z slapped on the side firing on the outer edge of a town here

[spring briar]

You’re probably right

This should be better

[narrow rover]

I don't know what that thing is and all I can say is that it looks fucking bizarre

[ivory ridge]

it's just a mortar

[tough quail]

it scoots and then it toots

and presumably some guy explodes

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hUryeNoU9g

[autumn sorrel]

Laser guide?

[autumn sorrel]

Tyulpan, my beloved

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7JtTPvv68M

[strong plank]

Reject tracked mortars

[runic ermine]

Huh?

[strong plank]

The goofy trapdoor hatches

[manic latch]

Soviets were actually looking into 535mm

Then decided that maybe its too big

I think gun itself was 15 tons

[tough quail]

jesus christ

[spring briar]

[narrow rover]

Big chungus cannon

That's almost as big as the Gustav

[manic latch]

Almost big as Karl Gerat*

Gustav is 800mm

Great is 600mm

[narrow rover]

Karl has a much much shorter barrel

[steel rapids]

Suprise elements

[autumn sorrel]

Which Museum have the best tank collection and exhibition? Kubinka or Bovington?

[manic latch]

My dungeon

Turks cooking up a carrier design

[heady sail]

Lol, 60000 tons and F35s on the deck, surely it can't get more non credible.

The ship for F35 for Turkey, really left long time ago.
No way in hell they get some in the near future.

[manic latch]

F-35 is a fat being

These planes are long

It's likely Kaan

[heady sail]

Maybe even more unlikely then.
I hardly believe Turkey will be able to produce it.
Isn't the first prototype almost ready and still they haven't the engines or something?
Considering it has to enter service before 2030 is not really promising.

Probably the whole plane is simply Turkish cope about getting excluded on the F35 program.

[heady sail]

Anyway, given that we are getting another russian event I hope we are getting this.
The Pr.23bis with twelve guns.

[subtle prawn]

There's been some speculation about them being reallowed to get theirs back recently

[heady sail]

Unlikely. Otherwise they wouldn't have made the whole shitshow for the NATO application of Sweden to get the new F16s.

As things stands I don't think they'll get anything.

The Ice cream seller really is delusional and thinks he can reform the Ottoman Empire, instead he is only antagonizing the West with his actions.

The only reason they are still in NATO is because they are strategic in the control of the Black Sea and they kinda border Russia.

[junior trench]

more like there's no mechanism for removal

the strait isn't actually that important considering how many other chokepoints there are

[manic latch]

First engines are F404 engines

[junior trench]

and the old reasons regarding nuclear weapons range just don't exist anymore

[runic ermine]

The russian black see fleet has kinda taken a beating

[manic latch]

Doubt

[heady sail]

I guess, until they do something truly inexcusable, it's better to have them inside, that outside.

Right now, they kinda interfere in the interests of the french and the Italians, and obviously the Greeks.

With their meddling in Libya and in Somalia it looks like they want to take over the Italian colonial empire, lol.

[heady sail]

Ah, ok, I see.

Kinda don't see them capable of developing and producing a fifth generation fighter jet.

The time were a single nation could develop and produce one are virtually over, fighter programs become so expensive it's really difficult for one nation to do all alone.

Much less for a nation with a disastrous economic situation, with little to no experience in producing modern fighters.

[heady sail]

"No, tovarich, the Russian black sea fleet was converted into submarines..." /S

[runic ermine]

Well in terms of ships, Ukraine has lost more. In terms of tonnage, Russia has lost more

[manic latch]

80s landing ships never expected to face drones I guess

[runic ermine]

No shit

[heady sail]

Tbh it makes no sense to give another UR to Russia.
They basically added almost everything that could be added, bar sister ships, there are only a few SSR worthy project, and even less UR worthy ones.

Italy should have gotten a UR probably.

[heady sail]

Still really embarrassing to lose ships to a country with no navy.

[manic latch]

Doesn't Soviets have more UR designs than Italy lol
Italy was damn shy on designing big

[heady sail]

It's like if China in the thirties started sinking Japanese battleships left and right.

[manic latch]

Like Aquila was the best CV design Italy had, and it wasn't that large carrier

Sparviero left but she doesn't look UR tier either

[runic ermine]

Aquila's sister

[runic ermine]

Ukraine has a navy it's just mostly sunk or of small ships

[heady sail]

Yeah, Italy liked to design project they could actually build nevertheless, big isn't really the only deciding factor in the UR status.

For starters the Capitani Romani and Marcopolo should have been UR.

[manic latch]

Yeah Marcopolo is precursorish to Soyuzes

[heady sail]

Also Impero, as an aircraft carrier, as in game should have been UR

[manic latch]

Converted Littorio class as UR?

That's kinda pushing

Lexingtons ain't UR after all

Or Kaga etc

[heady sail]

This was the layout of the carrier, pretty modern looking if you ask me.
Also she had a sky-jump.

I also would say she is more akin to Shinano than to the Lexington.

[heady sail]

Any ship would explode if hit by basically a torpedo.
The deficiency of the Russians is that they still aren't able to secure the port.

[manic latch]

Or not taking the whole coast

[heady sail]

They have quite a lot of carrier designs before the war, but they aren't UR worthy, they should probably be either elite or SSR.
Regarding sparviero she is basically a worse Aquila, slower because she retains the old engines and also the conversion is less extensive.

[manic latch]

Yup

[heady sail]

Given that she was supposed to escort convoys, maybe Sparviero could be an Italian Unicorn?

[manic latch]

For NP UR CV I expect Project Kostromitinov

[heady sail]

Other Ur worthy designs of the Italian could be the Costanzo Ciano cruisers.

Various precursors project of the Littorios in a CB forms.

And especially the Comandanti Medaglie d'oro destroyers.

Also the improved Soldati class and various pocket battleships designs, maybe.

[heady sail]

She is quite nice, too bad Stalin didn't quite like carriers.

[manic latch]

300m length

16 152mm
16 100mm?
106 aircraft (66 fighter 40 torpedo bomber)
50mm flight deck armor with i think 130mm total deck armor

51k ton full displacement

[manic latch]

He was looking into it

Khrushchev canceled it wholly

Stalin allowed construction of Project 85 light carriers in 50s

Khrushchev cancelled those tho

[heady sail]

Also if we are talking of UR retrofits you surely have to mention the Garibaldi.
She could be retrofitted into a UR missile cruiser.

[manic latch]

Voroshilov could become AA missile cruiser too ye

[heady sail]

Yeah, basically with the death of Stalin every big ship was cancelled in favour of smaller ones.
I guess they kinda did the right thing, ships like Stalingrad had no business in the postwar period.
Never understood why they never completed the Kronshtadt which was still in the dockyard but decided to build a new CB from scratch.

[manic latch]

Stalingrad was faster, had better guns, AA, electronics etc

And lighter

[heady sail]

Kinda sad they are doing so few retrofits nowadays.
If the Chinese have missiles they should give the early generation of missiles to other nations too.

[manic latch]

Mississippi ye

[heady sail]

Regarding AA guns and elettronics she could be retrofitted.

Stalin wanted the Stalingrad fast because he wanted her to be able to catch the Iowa class battleships.

[manic latch]

Uhh

Nope

To escape Iowa class battleship

Thus 33 vs 35

Stalingrad can't take her

Project 24's duty was going to be handle Iowas

But her problem was she was 30 knots

So she would stay defensive no chasing

Project 24

Likely last battleship designed by a nation

[heady sail]

This is what is written in the 2006 article on Warship by McLaughlin. Apparently Stalin was pretty confused about the role of such ship himself.

[manic latch]

As mentioned there

"Escape from enemy's more powerful ships"

She would prey on cruisers and such

Escape when BBs appear

Since do mind, Soviets also think Iowa has 482mm belt, Stalingrad just can't handle that with her 305mm

[heady sail]

Yeah, you are right, I was kinda misremembering.
I read it some time ago.

Nevertheless the Stalingrad had a pretty poor AA, she probably would have been an easy prey of NATO carriers.

[manic latch]

12 130mm
24 45mm is kinda low yes

[heady sail]

Simply, for what Stalin expected from the navy, a defensive navy, they would have been better off with some carriers and some cruisers.

[manic latch]

And 40 25mm

[manic latch]

That was the plan with Project 85 carriers, and Project 84 AA cruisers escorts for them, complemented with Sverdlov class cruisers

[heady sail]

The AA was sacrificed for other things. Stalin said that the ship would have been protected by destroyers, but Soviets destroyers at the time didn't really had any good AA. Good DD with good AA were built right after the death of Stalin

[manic latch]

Ye
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotlin-class_destroyer

[heady sail]

Postwar planning of the Soviet navy was really a mess, especially because kuznetsov, which had a more balanced approach, was demoted and after promoted again.
After the death of Stalin they finally fired him because his approach was definitely too much oriented towards capital ships.
The new soviet leadership preferred smaller ships instead.

[manic latch]

Missile ships too

Kuznetsov wanted carriers

[heady sail]

And they pretty much didn't want them somehow.

The Soviet Navy in the end only had smaller aircraft cruisers, they were getting around and finally building proper aircraft carriers right when the USSR collapsed.

[manic latch]

Shame about Orel indeed
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_1153_Orel

cancelled in October 1978 as being too expensive, and a smaller Project 1143.5, more V/STOL-aircraft-oriented, was developed instead

[manic latch]

Someone made nice model

Tho this is smaller variant I think

This should be larger model

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-reads-chat-cat-eating-cat-stare-stare-cat-cat-looking-gif-18206828986708283356

why the fuck does that even matter when Unzen exists even

[tough quail]

why dont you have more shitty magazine designs for the RM

[maiden citrus]

we can fix that

picks up a pen threateningly

[tough quail]

no no we need to be more authentic, something out in the wild

unde, go find the most fucked up inaccurate model of littorio you can and submit it as a separate battleship

like some awful manufacturing error where it has an extra barrel on two of the turrets

[eternal veldt]

"inaccurte model of Littorio"

just take Diesel Cavour and toss it in as a design

[wintry moat]

To be honest

I always found it a tad strange she has that open quarter deck

[versed tree]

Chad

[eternal veldt]

Not strange, it's more like "it's complicated"

[wintry moat]

I meant aesthetically

I know there's reason for it

[eternal veldt]

Littorio as designed has two catapults and a hangar - that hangar was eliminated because it restricted the arcs of fire for the 152mms

[wintry moat]

Ok

[eternal veldt]

And looks partially weirder imo

[versed tree]

Man reading the book about Washy made me feel sad about her fate

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1758650386209255867

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

This is the battleship HMS Rodney showing a bit of firepower flair by fanning her 16" guns. Rodney was damaged by her own guns while firing 378 16" shells at the battleship Bismarck in 1941. The shock broke water mains and loosened plates, causing flooding.

#FirepowerFriday

Twitter · Feb 17, 2024, 12:31 AM

[frozen kestrel]

Yeah, so I just went to work with Bismarck's WoWs model and uhhh...

[midnight dirge]

for anyone who doesn't use blender. those dots should be connected to that very top line

[eternal veldt]

Most game models are non-manifold and exist solely for gameplay purposes

They are good references only - Sometimes not so good due to the amount of errors they contain.

[mental tapir]

https://youtu.be/6VaLwo2DZKI?si=5fSpxuax8cdVDvfm

[winged patrol]

yeah like wows Prinz Eugen is completely off compared to original construction plans
-entire hull is to narrow by about 1,xx meters on each side and therefore entire superstructure is squished together
-side angle of the hull is off by about 10° in midsection
-torpedo bulge is coming out way to far
-decks are just entirely flat and not curved resulting in wrong heights in all decks abouve the main deck
-AA gun placements seems off
-minor errors in the keel and outer shafts aso..

its nice model ,but if you need something accurate not so useful

[eternal veldt]

I wouldn't rely completely on the construction plans, as Prinz Eugen was modified quite a bit during her construction.

Kreuzer J's Laengsschnitt plans, for example, indicate that the wackeltopf 8-metre SL rangefinder would be installed on the bridge tower; This wasn't the case, with hers being donated to the Soviet and wasn't obtained until late 1942.

Also not sure by what you mean with decks entirely flat, the model scales out reasonably well against the very creased plans of the ship.

The AA configuration is an easy explanation: The ship is modelled in her 1945 configuration, not as launched. Therefore, the original construction plans should not be relied upon. For example, a 20mm flakvering would occupy the position of the searchlight dome during one of her refits.

[alpine onyx]

Problem is that there is a set of Eugen plans that shows her pre-construction, and one that shows post construction (presumably)

So if you have the wrong set, you get all sorts of issues

Like the second pair of 105s was meant to be one deck higher

[eternal veldt]

I suspect another foul player is Profile Morskie - IIRC some of their plans are notoriously terrible

Agreed with the side angle of the hull - it does seem off, but Prinz Eugen's model is fairly old at this point.

[runic ermine]

https://youtu.be/watfVmFtpFI?si=zbl3sP1AYtM3INgg

[winged patrol]

i meant that the superstructure decks were modeled flat (straight) while in reality decks were curved
its just minor and only in superstructure but when you add up a lot of decks it gets noticeable

[eternal veldt]

It's very resource intensive - They naturally don't do it.

[winged patrol]

yeah its fine for game models to do so

[eternal veldt]

Many destroyers also have a slanted deck like this.

[frozen kestrel]

the fuck-

[spring briar]

Wow

[manic latch]

French officers in blackened greatcoats and face coverings for night operations (1915)

[spring briar]

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1758872324818801067
https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1758872327905845342

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1944, U.S. forces began the assualt on Eniwetok atoll. All but about 140 of the 3,500 Japanese defenders fought to their deaths. Passed by wartime censors, this photo of fatigued Marines after the battle presented a rare image of the psychological effects of combat.

Twitter · Feb 17, 2024, 3:13 PM

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

The Marine drinking coffee on the left is Pfc. Faris "Bob" M. Tuohy who was 19 at the time. Tuohy posed with a copy of the photo in 2019 just prior to turning 95. He passed away in June of 2023.

Twitter · Feb 17, 2024, 3:13 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1758978383495450921

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1991, the Dayton 500 featured cars representing the branches of the U.S. armed forces as a tribute to those serving in Operation Desert Storm.
#NASCAR

Twitter · Feb 17, 2024, 10:15 PM

[runic ermine]

Goofy

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1759003265767813154

[runic ermine]

I heard about that event its kinda funny

[cunning salmon]

What the hell is this concept

[mental tapir]

Looks like a cross between the X-29 and the Flapjack

[cunning salmon]

Underestimate the power of a slingshot

Thank god it was just a concept

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjYxmlVk81I

[humble jewel]

can't disagree

[visual rover]

https://youtu.be/b6YB3C0aBUo?si=jPEDUUaYY3vaPe1Z
De Zeven ProvinciënKlasse Luchtverdedigings- en CommandoFregatten -LCF (NL)
De Zeven Provinciën Class Air-Defence and Command Frigates - ADCF (EN)

[humble jewel]

Do you think Laffey II and JS Hiei have met during their time in service?

[shrewd pecan]

No since laffey was primarily limited to operations in the Mediterranean and Atlantic towards the end of her service life

And the Haruna class JS Hiei doesn’t show up until 1 year before laffey gets decommissioned

Hiei gets commissioned in November of 74 and Laffey gets decommissioned in march of 75

[narrow rover]

Most JMSDF personal of the time had very little ties to the IJN anyway

The Japanese government tried to push this narrative after WW2 that war is 'un-Japanese' which is uhh
I mean it worked I guess

[humble jewel]

pain... 💔

[ivory ridge]

bae kingston p.1214

it was a concept for a stovl design

[shrewd pecan]

STOVL design so must mention Convair Model 200

[heady sail]

Already mentioned the other day, but is really a shame this one was never built.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_P.1154

[frozen kestrel]

So, I'm trying to find out more about star shells, how they work, how much they illuminate, etc. Any good resources I should look for?

[visual rover]

HNLMS Friesland (D-812)
she is “lead ship of Friesland class Anti-Submarine Warfare Destroyer”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friesland-class_destroyer

[steel rapids]

Your creativity is beyond questionable

[runic ermine]

Would it be odd if I said that Japan and Croatia were at times more cartoonishly evil than Germany?

[signal wave]

What a goofy destroyer, i wonder what happened to it- Oh

[grave ravine]

lets not go into war crime olympics, its enough to say that they were evil and leave it there

[runic ermine]

Lmao

War crime Olympics

[humble jewel]

They really wanna forget everything

[ivory ridge]

https://fxtwitter.com/ThrustWR/status/1759244292067860634?t=pFVqMidqlgJJ7X6q84bZNw&s=19

[remote monolith]

old habits die hard

[runic ermine]

They still deny a lot

[humble jewel]

Fr

[runic ermine]

Also this image caused controversy last year

[humble jewel]

No wonder why the IJN and the IJA were beefing each other back then

[ivory ridge]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Akitsu_Maru

The

The army aircraft carrier

[humble jewel]

I don't understand it... it's still used by the JGSDF...

[solid mango]

Maru maru

[runic ermine]

People got pissed and said it was "ironic"

[humble jewel]

"Army" aircraft carrier 💀💀

[runic ermine]

Mainly Russian and Asian users

[humble jewel]

Huh.... 💀

[runic ermine]

In Asia the rising sun flag is associated with Japanese war crimes and Japanese imperialism

[humble jewel]

Ig people from the losing side can't be patriotic now?

[heady sail]

That flag it's still the navy flag, they didn't change it.

[humble jewel]

Sadly... but they gotta admit, this ain't the same Japan...

[runic ermine]

I know. I'm just saying the image got a lot of people pissed and Russian propaganda probably had a field day

[humble jewel]

It's still Japan's military flag... just a different Japan

[humble jewel]

Russians can't be saying that

[heady sail]

The Balkans were really a mess.
Even some Italian units in Dalmatia got told by the Germans to chill out.

[runic ermine]

I mean I think Germans a proud of and should be proud of their technological innovations

[runic ermine]

The SS told the Ustache to tone it down

And German advisors saw what the Japanese were doing in China and were like "Bro what the hell?!"

[heady sail]

Yeah, but it is not like it wasn't their navy flag already.

Everybody represents Japan during WWII with that flag, but that flag was the IJN flag and is still the IJN flag.

[runic ermine]

I still think that the 1914 Russian flag looks cool

[humble jewel]

Germans aren't patriotic... but when it comes to football-

[runic ermine]

Italians are proud of both world wars

[humble jewel]

Oh wow... that's actually sick.

[humble jewel]

Proud of getting carried in both 😭

[humble jewel]

Back when Russia was actually good

[runic ermine]

No not quite. They beat Austria Hungary so hard that the empire collapsed

In ww2 they also had notable success

[humble jewel]

Speaking ethically. But yeah

[runic ermine]

One of my favorite flags

[runic ermine]

They did pretty well for the cards they were delt

[humble jewel]

Oh damn. Plus points for uniqueness. Don't see a lot of that these days

[humble jewel]

True

[heady sail]

Yes, the ustaša were partially funded by Italy even before the war.
I read one time an Italian journalist was interviewing Ante Pavelic and he showed the journalist a barrell full of Serbs eyes.
Truly wicked.

By the way, not just the ustaša, but even some proper Italian units got "carried away" and the Germans told them to calm down.

[runic ermine]

Civil ensign but also sometime used as the nation's flag

[humble jewel]

I misread it... I thought you were talking bout Russia. I am so blind 💀

[runic ermine]

Do you remember what he said to the journalist?

[runic ermine]

All good

[heady sail]

Not really.
Unfortunately in Italy history isn't really valued anymore.

For example there was a fuss by the left when the government made again the fourth of November, the day of the armed forces and the victory over Austria a festive day.

Regarding WWII instead everybody prefers to forget it.
You also get stitches if you try to mention the Italians, and the non communist Croatians or Slovenes who got killed by in the foibes by Tito's partisan's.

[runic ermine]

But it's still a holiday

National unity day

And my birthday

[heady sail]

The journalist was Curzio Malaparte, who interviewed Ante Pavelic in 1941, after the axis invasion of Yugoslavia.

At one point Ante Pavelic pointed at a wicker basket an said there were 20kg of eyes inside.

[heady sail]

That's also the navy flag tbh, there wasn't really a unified flag for everything else.

Austria and Hungary were pretty separated.

In Hungary you would simply see the Hungarian flag, and in Austria the Austrian flag.

[heady sail]

It was a holiday but you wouldn't get a day off, and so everyone sort of forgot, now I think they made so that you get a day off.

[runic ermine]

I know

[runic ermine]

He also asked "What if the Serbs rebel?" Pavelic responded "Then I will kill them" Malaparte then asked "Well what if all Serbs rebel?" "Pavelic then stated "Then I will kill all Serbs"

[heady sail]

Yes, thanks, for the added parts.

I didn't properly read it, but I was told by a history professor at school some years ago.

I tried looking on the internet but the wicker basket with eyes was the only bit I found.

Nevertheless that shows how much they hated each other.
Things calmed down under Tito's iron fist, but after Tito's death, tensions exploded again and we got the terrible wars in Yugoslavia.

Honestly hope nothing bad happens in Bosnia Herzegovina, heard the Serbs are getting pretty restless again.

[steel rapids]

The serbs and baltics be like:

[runic ermine]

Balkans

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/Gabriel64869839/status/1759599266228470241

Gabriele Molinelli (@Gabriel64869839) on X

The first Challenger 3 has been shipped out to Germany where it is now undergoing trials.

Twitter · Feb 19, 2024, 3:22 PM

[steel rapids]

Yeah

[runic ermine]

It's already in war thunder

[subtle prawn]

That one's apparently only the tech demonstrator and not the production vehicle

[runic ermine]

Interesting

[subtle prawn]

The one to be added into War Thunder is the tech demonstrator I mean

[runic ermine]

Speaking of modern stuff I've been tallying International legion deaths

404 confirmed by name

[manic latch]

You feel too obsessed with that event

[runic ermine]

I'm keeping an eye on it

It's a current event of a large scale affecting millions of people daily

[manic latch]

One of current events of large scale affecting millions of people daily*

[runic ermine]

True

[runic ermine]

I'm just interested is all

[runic ermine]

Now that I think about it there's a lot of Wars going on

[manic latch]

Always has been

[runic ermine]

It's sad

[visual rover]

https://youtu.be/BvymTFptgBw?si=EREggy3svyTRU9_Z
This video of “Air-Defence and Command Frigate: HNLMS De Zeven Provinciën (F802)”
first laid down in 1 September 1998
and launched to water in 8 April 2000 and test sail ship to the sea in 2001
and commissioned in 26 April 2002

[ivory ridge]

come on man

[somber knoll]

Funni thing is, the modern JMSDF still flies the old IJN war flag somehow... by changing the red hue

[humble jewel]

Barely anything changed

[somber knoll]

The JGSDF gets the most of the flak of the history ye

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1759792869504594218

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1945, U.S. Marines landed on Iwo Jima. The Marines initally faced light resistance because the Japanese waited until the beaches were crowded with men and machinery before laying down heavy fire. A war correspondent described the landing as "a nightmare in hell."

Twitter · Feb 20, 2024, 4:11 AM

[narrow rover]

It's basically a generational trauma there so...

[zealous vine]

What's an approximate increase in penetration and velocity between APDS and APFSDS of the same caliber?

[junior trench]

Too many variables to say

There are 115 and 125mm APFSDS rounds that perform worse than late model 105mm APDS due to design choices imposed by industrial knowledge base limitations

Or as I call them

Skill issues

The actual mechanics of penetration are also different

[narrow rover]

Depending on who you ask we might be nearing the end for peace in Europe so...

[junior trench]

Mfw people still apply the "only western Europe is Europe" trope

[manic latch]

Ye
While Soviets were looking into 152mm, West was looking into 140mm

Actually I don't know why 140mm

They assumed it would perform similar as a Soviet 152mm?

Or deemed it's good enough to penetrate future Soviet 152mm MBTs

Since smaller than 152mm meant less Weight and more ammo

[manic latch]

@tough quail best ideology

Complete nuclear strike of the globe for a full reset

[narrow rover]

It's the most based communist ideology
'Nuke the capitalists'

It was all this easy all along!

[subtle prawn]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/type-26-frigate-purchase-reduced-by-australia/

[willow jungle]

This tank should be on the Museum....

[manic latch]

There are much older things around still kicking

[ivory ridge]

The one on the right isna t-54 and on the left a t-55

Not the same tank

Just a coincidence in numbers

[manic latch]

You know what's not a coincidence Undef

You living in same decade to know about Marco Polo

[willow jungle]

Here's a picture of a T-54. Could you compare it to the picture?

Yes. Their both T-55.

Not a T-54.

[ivory ridge]

Dude

The T-55 didn't fucking exist yet

[manic latch]

The Greatest Trick The Devil Ever Pulled Was Convincing The World He Doesn't Exist

[ivory ridge]

The t-55 was barely a thing in 1956, and it definitely wasnt sent to Hungary

[shrewd pecan]

isn't that literally just

the unit marker?

[manic latch]

Wish Soyuz put a unit marker on me

I never liked T-54/55

Ugly hull

Or too small should I say

[shrewd pecan]

https://www.museumofamericanarmor.com/blog/universalcarrier-0-3

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/mr-fresh-mr-fresh-cat-paranoia-hello-street-cat-cat-eating-gif-12431421677323781872

[shrewd pecan]

not really sure how to read Soviet/Eastern markings but in this case for this abrams it would be e troop 2nd platoon since its using Cav markings

from a forum post

"One version was for the first digit to represent the battalion number, the second the company, the third the vehicle number within the company. Ie 237 is 2nd battalion, third company, seventh vehicle."

"Another variant, apparently, was to number through the companies within a regiment. First digit being the company within the regiment, second and third identifying the vehicle with the battalion. Ie vehicle number 524 belongs to the fifth company and thus the second battalion ( three companies to each battalion, numbered sequentially through the regiment) and the twenty-fourth vehicle of that battalion"

[shrewd pecan]

The T-55s missing the T-54s ventilator on the turret roof,

which you can also see in the pictures from the Hungarian revolution T-54s

all T-54s have that dome shaped ventilator, the T-55 deleted it

pretty much the easiest detail I can seem to find for telling the two apart

in terms of T-54s in the conflict we aren't allowed to talk about, there's a chance that vehicles used during the Hungarian revolution are making their way over but at the same time just because two tanks have the same unit markers doesn't mean they're the same tank

[zealous vine]

[shrewd pecan]

pretty sure its down to being easy to convert back to 120 MMs

not sure though since that was only the XM291 that was able to convert between 120 and 140 MM with a barrel change

[autumn sorrel]

Nah, MT-LB still a better platform for Eastern European Mad Max

[runic ermine]

I heard that's the russian swiss army knife (as an expression because it's very versatile like a Swiss army knife)

[autumn sorrel]

It is a versatile chassis, the vehicle itself not that impressive nor complicated but it is rugged and reliable.

You can basically mount anything smaller than a full on Gun Howitzer and the thing will take it and run with it

Shame they don't manufacture them anymore and nothing similar will appear in near future

[runic ermine]

I need it

[manic latch]

It is

It's basically tractor with an empty flat top