history

[junior trench]

Abrams SEPv3 is 66.8 tonnes

a lot of stuff just throws on the FPP as a permanent part of the weight for some reason

Leo 2A7V is 66.5 tonnes for comparison

the most egregious Abrams weight numbers I've ever seen come from people citing the weight of an Abrams equipped with FPP, APS, and a mine roller

[spring briar]

or randomly throwing on APS/NERA on versions that shouldn't have it anyways

classic

[grave ravine]

Or just conflating metric tons and short tons

Another classic

[junior trench]

Chally 2 TES is widely cited as 75 tonnes

amusingly the ~73 ton figure comes from using long tons

which gives the smallest number

and almost no one uses them anymore

metric
Abrams SEPv3: 66.8
Leo 2A7V: 66.5
Chally 2 TES: 75

long tons
Abrams SEPv3: 65.75
Leo 2A7V: 65.5
Chally 2 TES: 73.82

short tons
Abrams SEPv3: 73.63
Leo 2A7V: 73.3
Chally 2 TES: 82.67

[ivory ridge]

https://fxtwitter.com/NichoConcu/status/1755185970717040945?t=_fauD4GMgzqOW58j7RGmmw&s=19

@tough quail fren

[tough quail]

my beloved

it looks so fucking cool

[ivory ridge]

[spring briar]

Gib

[strong plank]

and TES's been around since the 1990s?

nvm wait I misread that

but that's 75T with or without APS?

bc I'm surprised that the brits aren't placing a big emphasis on weight saving like the US is

with chally 3

[junior trench]

without

TES is just the mandatory ERA and composite packages to cover up things like the entire LFP

my big wtf moment with Chally 2 remains the way the driver's hole is arranged

[strong plank]

is chally 3 just not intended to deploy APS?

it feels weird to have something heavier than a Sepv3 and not make weight shedding a priority

[cinder escarp]

Chally cannot be lightened

[grave ravine]

Chieftain hull

[cinder escarp]

The design is fundamentally heavy af

[grave ravine]

Until the UK gets the money to make a clean sheet hull, it's just going to be kinda shitty in terms of protection and needlessly heavy

[strong plank]

yeah it's odd that they're just doing rebuilds, not new production

is it a money thing?

[grave ravine]

Yeah

Kinda

They would probably save money in the long run had they gone for a clean sheet design

Given they wouldn't have to try and rebuild it every 15 years

[junior trench]

that time they had the option to just buy M1A2s

with the state of "spare parts doko?" for Challengers, the usual issues of "domestic means we can supply parts ourselves without needing to buy them from elsewhere" don't really apply

[junior trench]

Chally 3 is supposed to get one

Chally 2 TES just basic bitch Chally 2 for actually doing anything

it's just the TES package isn't kept installed because ???

maybe because it lets them cite a lower weight for Chally 2

[subtle prawn]

Blame lobbying for the fact the designed-in-Britain option won despite both GDLS and KMW promising to set up production there if either of them won

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1755759906710290554

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1755406084326494307

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

One night In 1945, the Fletcher-class destroyer USS Converse (DD-509) received a radio call from U.S. troops on Corregidor who needed support repelling waves of banzai charges. The Converse responded with constant fire of star shells that illuminated the approaching enemy who…

Twitter · Feb 8, 2024, 1:39 AM

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdFbmQsZc-0

[desert agate]

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/reducing-risks-cost-and-time-to-acquire-our-aukus-attack-submarines/

[manic latch]

EODH SA in cooperation with KMW and DUMA is offering an upgrade package for Greek Leopard 1A5 tanks.

proposal also involves replacing the engine with a new 1000hp engine (21.7hp per tonne at a combat weight of 46 tonnes) and reinforced suspension. In addition, the turret should house an RWS with a heavy machine gun, which should be integrated with the commander's Independent panoramic sight. The RWS may also be equipped with a C-UAS jammer

[runic ermine]

Is that an anti drone cage?

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mFYjwxoObA

[manic latch]

Also known as cope cage yes

Anti FPV drone cage

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LxeKYzWGdw

[manic latch]

Rest in peace FARA @shrewd pecan

[visual rover]

HNLMS Tromp (F-803)
“second ship of the De Zeven Provinciën class Air-Defence and Command Frigate”
Modern Frigate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Tromp_(F803)

[muted thorn]

I just found soviet poster in my school today.

[manic latch]

[visual rover]

HNLMS De Ruyter (F-804)
“third ship of the De Zeven Provinciën class Air-Defence and Command Frigate”
Modern Frigate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_De_Ruyter_(F804)

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1756036010377465924

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1945, HMS Venturer sank U-864 in the only confirmed action in which a sub sank another sub when both were submerged. Venturer tracked the noise of U-864 for several hours before calculating time, distance, bearing and target depth to launch a successful torpedo attack.

Twitter · Feb 9, 2024, 7:23 PM

[manic latch]

@tough quail
Winter trials of the M4A2 tank in the USSR ended in 1943. T49 tracks with parallel bar grousers improved performance in winter compared to T41 rubber tracks, but grousers became packed with snow and the tank slid uncontrollably

[tough quail]

help him

[wintry moat]

sleepy Sherman

[frozen kestrel]

So, I've gone and removed the FlaK guns on the forward and aft decks on the WoWs Prinz Eugen, just so nothing clutters it, and so I don't shoot myself while trying to texture it.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdr6YX2ckng

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1756123699634135342

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

How big was the U.S. Navy during WWII? By January 1945, the Navy had 61,045 vessels including 23 battleships, over 100 aircraft carriers, 59 cruisers, 425 destroyers, 400 destroyer-escorts, 237 subs and 54,000 landing craft and assault ships, plus 37,000 planes.
#FunFactFriday

Twitter · Feb 10, 2024, 1:11 AM

[solid mango]

I see a Cle, which Cle, me no sure

[humble jewel]

I hope they do get turned into museum ships

[manic latch]

Who payin

[humble jewel]

me 😎

[solid mango]

How much

[humble jewel]

idk

[solid mango]

[humble jewel]

I wanna go back to the time they tried to raise funds to save USS Enterprise

[solid mango]

We go time travel, u go save Enty, I go preserve as much as I can of Cleveland's unrecorded history

Maybe record the song "Take the Cleveland Back to Sydney"

[humble jewel]

[solid mango]

I cant find it anywhere

I only know of its existence via Cleveland's Cruise Book

[humble jewel]

somehow Viva La Vida just made me think of how the tragedy of scrapping Enty 💀

[humble jewel]

💔

[autumn sorrel]

Tank are getting uglier by day

[manic latch]

Like ships

Modern Maus

[autumn sorrel]

Need modern SMK

[remote monolith]

https://www.sci.news/paleontology/inawentu-oslatus-12664.html

relatively small for a titanosaur

[spring briar]

DM83…

This person clearly doesn’t know they stopped at DM73

[remote monolith]

Dubbed Inawentu oslatus, the animal was a type of titanosaur, a diverse group of long-necked sauropods that lived from the Late Jurassic (163.5-145 million years ago) to the end of the Cretaceous period (145-66 million years ago).

“The recovered skeletal remains were found articulated in a horizon of massive, reddish-colored, edaphized mudstones which are covered by a thin sandy layer (30 cm thick) linked to river overbank flooding deposits,” the researchers explained.

Inawentu oslatus shows remarkable convergent traits of its skull anatomy with rebbachisaurid sauropods, according to the authors.

“Inawentu oslatus belongs to a clade of square-jawed titanosaurian species that were restricted to the last stages of the Late Cretaceous in South America,” they said.

“Inawentu oslatus and probably other members of this clade, possess apparent trophic adaptations seen in the preceding rebbachisaurid sauropods, such as a broad snout and a relatively short neck.”

rebbachisaurid titanosaurian, how bout that

[humble jewel]

Nahhh I'd run

[ivory ridge]

modern maus
That's just the pzh2k

[humble jewel]

real

[manic latch]

Truu

https://youtu.be/GAbgufGCFHQ?si=PfILAzWkMzN7obYX

[humble jewel]

U-995 still living at the Laboe Naval Memorial

[humble jewel]

I will forever be saddened at the fact that USS Philippines was supposed to exist but was cancelled

[runic ermine]

What is Huan Ch'ang based on

[fierce sparrow]

https://fxtwitter.com/Fighterman_FFRC/status/1756197108762509357

[autumn sorrel]

A set of requirements

[remote flame]

from a 1913 naval expansion plan that was impossible to fulfil, it was only written to secure more funding for the navy
http://www.wenqujingdian.com/Public/editor/attached/file/20180318/20180318172652_77571.pdf

[visual rover]

If 2 ships to be museum is will good. Is the last ww2 submarines still service by the navy long times I hope be museum

[frozen kestrel]

I swear, every damn time I see this image, my brain really just decides to think this bastard in the back is an Arleigh Burke

[runic ermine]

Wait really

[visual rover]

HNLMS Evertsen (F-805)
“fourth ship of the De Zeven Provinciën class Air-Defence and Command Frigate”
Modern Frigate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Evertsen_(F805)

[autumn sorrel]

Yes, Chinese gov just give out a set of requirement for International shipbuilders to see whether anyone want to build for them a new fleet, nobody bother to build anything larger than a light cruiser bc everybody knew the Chinese can't pay for it.

[ivory ridge]

I think it also depends which one this is

cuz the big ass 10 guns BC is a fever dream

but given her rigging ingame i think she's just the Pre-dread looking thing that couldve been built in AH

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1756386055769424139

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1906, HMS Dreadnought became "the most deadly fighting machine ever launched in the history of the world." Dreadnought heralded a new era of naval warfare by introducing a revolutionary design that gave the battleship unprecedented firepower and speed.

Twitter · Feb 10, 2024, 6:34 PM

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEw4fpMx548

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1756425537122124224

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

HMS Tamar recently completed sovereignty patrols of the remote Pitcairn Islands in the South Pacific. The inhabitants of Pitcairn are the descendants of Fletcher Christian and the other mutineers of HMS Bounty. The arrival of Tamar almost doubled Pitcairn's small population.

Twitter · Feb 10, 2024, 9:10 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1756506099979551010

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

In 1961, the White House sent the Navy a set of elaborate plans for a naval base under Antarctica. Attached was a note with the order "Build it! J.F.K." After reviewing the fanciful plans, admirals called the White House to question the feasibility and cost of the project. It…

Twitter · Feb 11, 2024, 2:31 AM

[frozen kestrel]

Quick question: The Germans had teak decks on their ships, right? Or was there another kind of wood they used? I just don't want to get it wrong

[shrewd pecan]

what is up with the turks

and getting the absolute best looking versions of foreign vehicles for their trials

then you know

never adopting any of them

above they have the Turkish leclerc proposal, here we have the T-84-120 also made for the Turks

they had the Diesel abrams as well

[runic ermine]

A very rare tank

[humble jewel]

Fr. Taiwan's tourism would go up a bit with those museum ships.

[humble jewel]

This will always be the peak tank design for me

[steel rapids]

Pain

[desert agate]

this isnt a meme channel

[steel rapids]

History

Literally history meme

Ok?

[remote monolith]

https://scitechdaily.com/earliest-known-skin-fossil-shocks-paleontologists-unlike-anything-we-would-have-expected/

Paleozoic skin impressions are, to put it mildly, very difficult to get so this is impressiver

[tough quail]

can i touch it

[remote monolith]

yes

don't tell anyone this but the paleozoic skin impressions are free to take

[tough quail]

splendid

i wish to partake of it's unusual texture

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckouoTDkrtQ

[runic ermine]

But enlisted is fun

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dfLzMiOgqo

[desert agate]

ARDU paint scheme Mirage III
Aircraft A3-2, one of 3 Australian Mirages built in France
Served with ARDU until 1988 where it was involved in the last pubic display of the Mirage in Australia at the Richmond Airshow

@spring briar

[spring briar]

Oh yeah

Dorito plane

[visual rover]

Other ships like same this ship from ww2 still in service 2024 too
This is last “Cannon class destroyer escort” in the world still in service by royal thailand navy 2024 (the only one destroyer escort from ww2 in service 2024)

“HTMS Pinklao (DE-413) [ex- USS Hemminger DE-746]”
Last cannon class destroyer escort only one ship in the world service by thai navy 2024
and that ship “she was is a Traning ship and Salute ship”

[frozen kestrel]

Any idea what this thing is on the KGV's mast?

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1756762689106505838

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#DYK that WWII Marine flying ace and Medal of Honor recipient Joe Foss (26 victories) was instrumental in the creation of the Super Bowl? As commissioner of the AFL in the 1960s, he launched a campaign to push the rival NFL into committing to a championship game. #SuperBowl

Twitter · Feb 11, 2024, 7:30 PM

[steel rapids]

Yes

[manic latch]

February 1945 the Armoured and Mechanized Forces Council petitioned Beria to accept the Object 701 tank into service as the IS-4. Tanks minister Malyshev opposed this decision and convinced the government to accept the lighter IS-3 tank instead.
This decision turned out to be correct. Accepted into service in 1946, the IS-4 turned out to be much less reliable than the IS-3 tank that was built on tried and true automotive components of the IS-2 tank.

[steel rapids]

It was forgotten 😢

[humble jewel]

So true

[humble jewel]

I hope they turn her into a museum ship too

[visual rover]

I think HTMS PInklao (ex- USS Hemminger) still service she was Salute ship only one of the Royal Thailand Navy maybe future to be museum.

[humble jewel]

Soon

[visual rover]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Hemminger

[humble jewel]

Btw, she's the sister ship of Eldridge right?

[visual rover]

Yes “Pinklao (ex- Hemminger)” she is sister of Eldridge because the ship is same cannon class destroyer escort

[humble jewel]

[visual rover]

This the photo of “Hemminger/Pinklao” before and after

[humble jewel]

I love how she barely changed

[wintry moat]

What's she armed with?

[visual rover]

Little detail of her pinklao (ex- hemminger) upgrade “the bridge and middle ship has torpedo launcher for mark 46”

[humble jewel]

Oh damn I just noticed that

[visual rover]

HTMS Pinklao (DE-413) [ex- USS Hemminger DE-746]
She was the traning ship and salute ship of the royal thai navy still service for sailors

[visual rover]

Yes this little detail of the ship

[wintry moat]

Oh cook

*cool

[visual rover]

She in commissioned 1944-now
By U.S. Navy 1944-1958 and to Thailand Navy 1959-now
and she is the Last Cannon class Destroyer Escort still service in the world

[wintry moat]

what were the Cannon Class armed with?

[humble jewel]

what da hell ☠️

[visual rover]

This cannon class destroyer escort
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon-class_destroyer_escort

[runic ermine]

Congratulations I guess

[eternal veldt]

Type 271 radar, dubbed as the "lantern" appropriately.

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1756889905198932314

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

In 1961, USS Spinax (SSR-489) became the first submarine to fly a kite while submerged. The 5'x7' kite was fashioned from bamboo sticks, a garment bag, cellophane tape and 1500 feet of nylon line. It served no purpose other than to entertain the crew who watched it through the…

Twitter · Feb 12, 2024, 3:56 AM

[silver crest]

I can’t believe “Nazis are bad” is now something that needs to be explained to people.

we live in confusing times

[silver crest]

🔥 🔥

[frozen kestrel]

Yeah, and I got called a Neo-Nazi a while back on Roblox, just for building Prinz Eugen

But then again, considering Roblox is mostly populated by little kids and uneducated middle schoolers, I wasn't exactly surprised

[glass trail]

neo from the matrix????

[wintry moat]

I got called a Russian spy for being into Soviet tanks

[steel rapids]

I got call a comie just because wearing a Ushanka

[desert agate]

this isnt a meme channel

[manic latch]

On February 12, 1988, the Soviet patrol ship Bezzavetny (Project 1135) rammed the port side of the American missile cruiser USS Yorktown (CG-48).

[visual rover]

Netherlands frigate: HNLMS De Ruyter (F-804)
[third ship of De Zeven Provinciën class ADCF-Frigate]

[runic ermine]

Lmao

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEHZqQNTBWA

[runic ermine]

Have you guys heard about the Alyosha tank?

[steel rapids]

No

What is it

[runic ermine]

Nickname for a Russian T-80BV tank that's crew became tank aces after destroying 8 Ukrainian armored vehicles

I think ukraine also has a tank ace if im not mistaken

[steel rapids]

Oh yeah I heard about them they received a t90 after that

[runic ermine]

And the T-80BV is currently on display in kubaka

[steel rapids]

Nah they all got fuck by t72b1, mi28 and ka50

[runic ermine]

Also the craziest thing is that one of the tankers has a grandfather who fought at kursk

[runic ermine]

One sec I think there was an article

Nvm

[manic latch]

52* 50 was a single seat prototype thingy

52 is two seat

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/omw-to-spread-misinformation-all-over-the-internet-gif-26525511

t72b1?

what

[manic latch]

Ye it should be b3m

Never liked 72 personally, she would be very fine if operated only in 70s and 80s

But she should have been replaced in 90s

Tho it's 90s

Not good time for that either

[ivory ridge]

[manic latch]

Do not leave me Soy

Make her stay Krem

Nooo

[runic ermine]

I have a lego T72

[steel rapids]

Not sure lol

[ivory ridge]

then why even talk

if you're just gonna make up stuff

[runic ermine]

That's why I check sources and use common sense

[steel rapids]

Nope im not making up the Russian update the t72 and was B something

[ivory ridge]

Ok but what the fuck does that have to do with what you said

[steel rapids]

Well Russia decided to upgrade it so they can have a big tank force lol

[ivory ridge]

the t72b3 exists but that doesnt mean shit

[runic ermine]

I know that the armor that Aloyosha destroyed was: 2 T72B, 1 M113, and 5 max pros

Alyosha itself is a T-80BV I think

[steel rapids]

I think there's a Leopard im not sure correct me if im wrong

[runic ermine]

There wasnt

[frozen kestrel]

Sorry to have to keep asking you guys for stuff, but does anyone have good quality images (preferably with transparent backgrounds) of the ship badges for Bismarck, Hood, Prinz Eugen, and Prince of Wales?

[ivory ridge]

saying Ukraine doesnt have aces because "they all got fuck by t72b1, mi28 and ka50" is like me saying Russia doesnt have Aces because they all got fucked at Vuhledar and Aavdiivka

[runic ermine]

Sadly no I don't have those

[steel rapids]

The UAV screen shot was shit so couldn't see clearly

[runic ermine]

I think Ukraine does have tank aces

[ivory ridge]

im just paraphrasing him

[runic ermine]

But I do think I'm just not 100% sure

[ivory ridge]

I mean if we count APCs and even HMMVs to the count then probably there are several tank aces on both sides

[manic latch]

Real killer is artillery anyway

That's what get Chal2s and Leo2s most

[steel rapids]

And killer drones

[runic ermine]

I thought it was mines, and KA-52s

[ivory ridge]

but that doesnt stop one side from getting fucked by vihkrs and the other by Javelins

[ivory ridge]

both hit mines and were abandoned

[runic ermine]

I was about to say that

[ivory ridge]

and later artilleryd

[steel rapids]

But the Ka gets destroyed by anti air

[manic latch]

single 152mm near miss or hit just disables the tank

[runic ermine]

That's because it's 152mm

[ivory ridge]

meanwhile in WT: "Hit!"

yellow track

[steel rapids]

Fuck the snail

[runic ermine]

Maybe it hit a bad angle?

[steel rapids]

Fuck you snail you tied me to this chair for 2 years

[steel rapids]

Or its too slow

[runic ermine]

Also the reason for this was because Ukraine didn't have any air support and the main AA was in the cities

[steel rapids]

Its depressing to be a Russian helicopter pilot in Ukraine

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/lada-bounce-artillery-funny-gif-18779702

Lada power

[steel rapids]

How the fuck did you miss

[manic latch]

It was willingly I think

Since at extreme angles

Projectile will bounce

Abrams's frontal plate logic works this way

[steel rapids]

Bro was so close

[manic latch]

Nah just

Close range helicopters are dead

I'm sure you heard the news

US's FARA helicopter program

US cancelled it because it's too dangerous for helis to do recon anymore

Drones will take that mission now

And Apache replacement will likely focus on very long range hitting. Beyond manpad range

Longbow radar Apache already does that in a,way

[steel rapids]

The mi24 and mi8 pilot having a good time

[manic latch]

If you are using Vikhr

It's good time since

Vikhr does have pretty good range

Point is you have to keep manpads far as possible as a heli

Only way to do that is long range missile

[runic ermine]

It's depressing to be IN Ukraine regardless of the side

[steel rapids]

Which every heli have

[ivory ridge]

Vihkrs are fine but unlike in WT F&F missiles are better

[manic latch]

I forgot if Longbow was fire and forgot for US

[steel rapids]

Especially ground troops every seconds a bomb from a drone drop on your head

[ivory ridge]

radar guided but not true fnf

[manic latch]

That radar on top is Longbow

[manic latch]

True

[ivory ridge]

and unlike in WT where you need missiles to full kill the tanks

irl you just need to hit it

[manic latch]

WT has that repair function

Smh irl lacks

[steel rapids]

Wat do you expect from a free to play game

[manic latch]

You know

I had lewd thoughts about Ghiodrah

[ivory ridge]

this has nothing to do with the quality of the game

[manic latch]

3 heads is nice

Anyway

[steel rapids]

Woah

[ivory ridge]

it's a gameplay function not a quality issue

[steel rapids]

My mental health have decreases for 2 years playing it

[steel rapids]

Holy shit

[grave ravine]

The whole idea of tank aces is stupid propaganda

[grave ravine]

Eh, a large part of it is that FARA wasn't really going to be better at recon than Apache either, nor would it have been cheaper

[steel rapids]

Tank ace only popular ww2 so yeah

[grave ravine]

WW2 tank aces are also mostly stupid propaganda

[steel rapids]

The government want to scare the enemy so they throw in tank ace

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1757110781571997925

[steel rapids]

Like Michael Wittman Nazi propaganda tank ace

[visual rover]

Netherlands navy frigate: HNLMS Evertsen (F-805) in Yokosuka, Japan 2021

[steel rapids]

Damn you EA

[humble jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/sushichaeng-grass-touch-some-grass-go-outside-touch-grass-gif-22209837

[visual rover]

British Carrier Strike Group 2021 (CSG 21)
7 British Warships🇬🇧 and 1 American Warship🇺🇸 and
1 Netherlands Warship🇳🇱

[frozen kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-infinity-war-avengers-gif-20036370

[runic ermine]

I'm still waiting
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_26_frigate

[shrewd pecan]

I mean even in warthunder the F&F missiles are just better since the firing helicopter can actually evade

they just you know haven't added lima hellfires to actually make the longbow relevant

[visual rover]

Same i wait for it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Zeven_Provinciën_class_frigate

[runic ermine]

Isn't that already in service?

[visual rover]

Yes they in service 2002-now (every 4 ships)

[runic ermine]

Canada is supposed to get 15 type 26s but they haven't even laid one down

[visual rover]

Mmm Canada want new frigates to be commissioned in future
and Netherlands and Belgium has project new frigate call: “Anti-Submarine Warfare Frigate (ASWF)”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Submarine_Warfare_Frigate_(Koninklijke_Marine)

First 2 ships laid down in 2029 for Netherlands navy

[compact canopy]

I was at the Frontiers in Flight museum in Dallas yesterday. It has a flying flapjack. Only 3 were ever made. The one in dallas carried six .50 machine guns and two 1000 lb bombs.

It's on loan from the Smithsonian since 2012

[ivory ridge]

better than vihkrs? naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

extremely map reliant, garbage tracking, garbage pen and damage, also on platforms 2 BRs below while having half the missiles of the standard missile armed helis at 11.7

[shrewd pecan]

I mean to counter vikhrs all you really have to do is hide behind either terrain features or forests

Ka-50/52 still has to keep itself exposed to keep tracking

[ivory ridge]

to counter fnf missiles you just have to exist

they are just garbage ingame

they lose lock randomly and in even remotely urban/foresty maps they are 100% unusable

[shrewd pecan]

you can quickly dump 1-2 spikes on a KA-50 and still have enough time to hide and likely still get a kill

Spikes can reliably kill helicopters I've seen them do it on my Vilika

[ivory ridge]

they are great against helis but why even mention heli vs heli combat?

like you're useless as cas on 95% of the maps

[shrewd pecan]

I was mainly mentioning in the realm of helicopter v helicopter combat

if its just vs tanks then most of the issues hellfires had would be solved if gaijin made them direct attack instead of in their loft mode

[ivory ridge]

hellfires are way better than fnf in ther current state

you can actually aim them

instead of praying for a lock and then praying for the lock to not get lost in the abyss

and you either get them at a lower BR or you get twice as many missiles compared to fnf platforms

but anyway enough WT, this isnt the place for that

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1756889905198932314

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

In 1961, USS Spinax (SSR-489) became the first submarine to fly a kite while submerged. The 5'x7' kite was fashioned from bamboo sticks, a garment bag, cellophane tape and 1500 feet of nylon line. It served no purpose other than to entertain the crew who watched it through the…

Twitter · Feb 12, 2024, 3:56 AM

[lime scarab]

Wasn’t she the first USA nuclear submarine or am I wrong

[versed tree]

Funny moments in the Washington

[desert agate]

waiting for what? the godawful UK shipbuilding industry to build a frigate in under a decade?

[runic ermine]

Waiting for Canada to build 15 of them

[desert agate]

Im not sure if id prefer the RAN order be expanded to 16 or not

thats the present discussion in any case

[worn ember]

this is cool

i still remember the chilean AMX-30B2

failure after failure in the gearboxes

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2024/02/12/relic-recovered-from-u-s-destroyer-lost-in-wwi

[solid mango]

[runic ermine]

Canada modernized their 12 halifax class frigates and the type 26 isn't phasing them out. So eventually Canada may have 27 frigates

[desert agate]

the Halifax is not a viable surface combatant in this day and age

[subtle prawn]

The CSC program intends to replace both the Halifax-class as well as do some air defense to make up for the three Tribal-class destroyers that were retired years ago

Also, where you going to find that manpower for all 27 ships? Pretty confident we're still having retention issues

[runic ermine]

Yep. I'm honestly questioning it all still

[desert agate]

CSC looks like it has a pathetic armament suite for a 15 ship class

cut the order by 5 and buy a Burke equivalent

[subtle prawn]

Yeah, but a Burke requires a lot of manpower

Also, good luck cancelling the program and then ending up having to deal with a lawsuit by both BAE Systems as well as Lockheed Martin

[desert agate]

burke equivalent

Burkes main issue with manpower is that due to the age of the design it doesnt have a lot of the automation that a 2024 AWD design would bring

[runic ermine]

What's bad about it specifically?

[desert agate]

24 sea ceptors and 24 Mk41 cells on an 8000t design intended as a principle surface combatant for the RCN

compared to the RAN which is currently looking to pursue an upgunned Hunter class with 96 cells on 8000t displacement

[runic ermine]

The tribal class is pre-ww2. The Algonquin class was retired in 2017

[runic ermine]

So Australia's is better?

[desert agate]

Iroquois Class is also referred to as the Tribal class

[desert agate]

depends who you ask

but i would argue that the upgunned Hunter has a vastly superior radar and armament suite to the CSC

[runic ermine]

Oh my bad I mixed up names

[desert agate]

if the upgunned Hunter does happen

that is

[runic ermine]

Also different navies have different requirements

[desert agate]

alternatively we might just end up buying type 83

if CSC is intended as an air warfare platform its armament is pathetically minimal

[subtle prawn]

In the early days of the program at least, they actually considered separate AAW and ASW ships, but ended up shoving both into a single ship class

[runic ermine]

Probably to make it multi role

[desert agate]

the Hunters as designed are in a similar position to CSC

but thats as presently intended

we will see whether or not the upgunned version is chosen in the surface fleet review later this week or next

im hoping for type 83 though

RAN could feasibly build and commission type 83 before the RN does

and it would be a vastly superior platform to an upgunned Hunter

[subtle prawn]

As for the other potential designs for the CSC program, others were considered, the Danes and Germans didn't bother competing, FREMM ended up being rejected due to dishonest tactics by the French, DZP and Navantia's options were apparently too AAW-focused for a ship they also wanted to use for ASW (need to double check this one)

[ivory ridge]

lol what did France do

[desert agate]

Navantia is a poor export partner

[ivory ridge]

I mean it's france in a military competition so im not surprid but what happened

[subtle prawn]

Attempted to bypass the regular procurement procedures by submitting directly to the defence minister

[ivory ridge]

[spring briar]

Hi

[ivory ridge]

hi

[spring briar]

Hi

[ivory ridge]

The canadian type 26 is the best one because it uses the Leonardo 127mm /s

[spring briar]

[runic ermine]

Canada is trying to rebuild its military

[ivory ridge]

my beloved

[desert agate]

lol

[spring briar]

Cute

[ivory ridge]

https://fxtwitter.com/NichoConcu/status/1757379457034154470

[spring briar]

Lol

I wonder how much space there will be in the turret

[maiden citrus]

hot dog maker space hopefully

[spring briar]

Why not the KF51

[ivory ridge]

because we are keeping some Arietes so adding another caliber is dumb

plus the kf51 is dumb

[spring briar]

True

Well in its drone operator scheme mostly

And I’m iffy about the actual armor

[ivory ridge]

I think Hungary is interested in the kf51 ~~so im getting it in warthunder in the italian tree either way ~~

[spring briar]

Slave to WT

[manic latch]

Too radical and low on number

And you need to start producing 130mm

[spring briar]

How many leopard 2a8’s are there

Regardless of it being a leo2

[manic latch]

How many times you hugged Richel

[strong plank]

The Italian army isn’t as tank-centric as some other European forces right?

what with Italy’s geography and all that

[manic latch]

@tough quail projects to make the T-34-85 and T-54 amphibious

https://tenor.com/view/muscle-black-guy-funny-walk-on-my-way-mad-gif-17251597

[runic ermine]

🇮🇹 🤝 🇭🇺

[runic ermine]

That looks so wack

[ivory ridge]

tbh using geography as excuse is a cope because like

they arent for self defense

they are for nato operations

you could maybe use that excuse back in the last century, before the fall of the iron courtain and Yugoslavia right next to us

but the major fear was in a possible landing operation from there, which is why they focused a lot on stuff like the Centauro

plus this is all plains

goofy ass clickbaity youtube thumbnail looking ass

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

Pizza colors

🇫🇷🇷🇺

Man tricolors are lame

It feels corporate bs

[chilly osprey]

This is incorrect. The Halifax-class is being replaced, not supplemented, by the CSC/Type 26.

[ivory ridge]

🇳🇱

[ivory ridge]

[visual rover]

[manic latch]

do it

[runic ermine]

Why did they go through the effort of modernizing them?

[runic ermine]

A lot of mountains

They're worth a visit

[ivory ridge]

because the CSC at this rate wont be a thing for another decade

[chilly osprey]

Because they need them to last into the 2040s.

The first CSC will not enter service until the early to mid 2030s, and the last of the fifteen not until the late 2040s.

The Halifax-class were all built in the late 80s to early-mid 90s

[runic ermine]

Yep

[chilly osprey]

They won't last until the 2030s-40s without a lot of work to keep them going.

[steel rapids]

Wide

[runic ermine]

https://tenor.com/view/vladimir-putin-putin-walking-gif-17963692

[runic ermine]

I hate bureaucracy

[chilly osprey]

The refits they're going through now aren't really even much in the way of upgrades, versus just maintaining them in service.

[steel rapids]

My heart is cold (ballllls)

[chilly osprey]

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/08/davie-shipyard-begins-halifax-class-frigate-mid-life-refit-program/

Over the past 12 months a major facility upgrade program was completed at the West end of Davie shipyard and in the historic Lorne drydock to provide a long-term maintenance home for Canada’s surface combat fleet and its supporting naval staff.

Davie Shipyard added in a statement that docking maintenance work periods are critical to ensure the RCN has at least 8 of its 12 patrol frigates ready for deployment at all times until the class is replaced by the Canadian Surface Combatants (CSC) in the early 2040s.

According to Timothy Choi, naval analyst at the University of Calgary in Canada, the mid-life refit work will focus on the hull, mechanical, and electrical works that were not included as part of the FELEX upgrades. “The only substantial new component that I’m aware of are the four .50cal remote weapons system” Choi added.```

[steel rapids]

Ruski wanted those boats badly

[chilly osprey]

Fundamentally, it comes down to Canada wanting to be able to build and maintain the frigates in Canada.

Much of the reason the program costs so much is to build up the capability to build said modern frigates and then maintain them.

Which is an entirely reasonable desire - but it is an expensive one.

It's a major reason the Australian program is likewise as pricy as it is, though they started in a significantly better position than Canada did.

[runic ermine]

Canada also is constantly asked by NATO to hit the 2% mark

[visual rover]

[eager dove]

because Canada doesn't want and doesn't need a Burke equivalent

the CSC is the all singing, all dancing general purpose combatant for the RCN going forward, we specifically went with one design of ship for the whole fleet to streamline logistics, interoperability and training

[eager dove]

CSC is not as capable on a 1:1 basis as some other ships but having your entire fleet be a SPY-7 equipped, AEGIS/CEC capable multi-role frigate force makes sure that you always have an AAW/ASW capability available to deploy.

I'd rather have 15 CSC in this config compared to a handful of more capable AAW ships

[eager dove]

?

[manic latch]

"The CSC cost figures according to the Public Budget Office (PBO) are approximately $70B CAD for all 15 CSC frigates; that much we know. If we could turn back the clock to say 2018, we could have built 15 Arleigh Burkes (ABs) Flt IIIs for 5.1B USD each (fixed prices in 2018 as a contract to build the first 5 ABs FLT IIIs has already been struck). This works out to be $6.47B CAD per ship or just over $97B CAD for all 15 ships"

[eager dove]

that $70B CAD figure is including a lot of program costs

it is not comparable to any figure you can find for a Burke pricetag

[manic latch]

Ah

[eager dove]

its something like 65% of that being for the production of the ships, 5/10% for design/project management costs, 10% for weaponry and infrastructure to support the ships in service (jetties, training facilities. test and integration facilities) and finally 15/20%(!) for contingency funds.

the Navy also actively disagrees with the PBO's figures and vice versa

going off the Navy estimates, CSC would have a per unit cost more around $2.6B CAD

or like $1.96B USD

it doesn't make much sense for Canada to buy Burke's due to the crew requirements to run them, the fact the designs do not fit our roles and Burke is still an old design at this point

the CSC's will likely be in service for another 30-40 years after they enter the fleet, I do not want to be operating Burke's until like 2080

[manic latch]

I see

[eager dove]

I would like to have 32 instead of 24 main VLS but the figure was cut down for one reason or another

weight, cost, etc

24 VLS is the bare minimum workable and future flights of the CSC very well could have additional cells or weapons systems to help deal with this

[eager dove]

I don't think anybody here is able to argue about specifics between classified radar systems like SPY-7 or CEAFAR 2, especially not enough to make authoritative statements

Ship weight is not something I overly dwell on as steel is cheap and certain capabilities require tonnage to be implemented. Type 26 (and thus the variants) are so heavy in part due to the acoustic quieting measures worked basically all aspects of the hull. This is over and beyond what many older ASW ships had, to the point where you are dealing with not just rafting of machinery but sound proofing and testing basically everything. The fact that CSC will retain its mission bay for using future unmanned systems for various roles is also something key to its role as an ASW combatant.

AAW is not a primary role of the ship but something the design can do well enough if required considering it can provide a more than workable sensor node due to its SPY-7 system and interlace with US taskforces using its CEC links.

Being able to bring 24 CAMM alongside a loadout of like 8 cells of ESSM Block II (32 missiles) and 16 cells of SM-2 IIIC is a quantum leap over the Halifax class and even the previous Iroquois class given those ships were very limited in their overall number

this capability is fleet wide across every single ship

[eager dove]

the Dutch and Spanish options were too AAW focused but they were both also dated and old

[visual rover]

Future netherlands will has new frigate in 2029 is call: Anti-Submarine Warfare Frigate (ASWF)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Submarine_Warfare_Frigate_(Koninklijke_Marine)

[eager dove]

De Zeven Provinciën and F100 were both designed back in the 1990 and laid down a few years later

that is not a great platform to build a ship on where you will get your first ships in the 2030's and run them for another 30-40 years after that

[eager dove]

yeah that program came after we had already picked the winning design for the CSC program and wouldn't have been suitable anyway

[visual rover]

De Zeven Provinciën class Air-Defence and Command Frigates ready in service in 2002-now
HNLMS De Zeven Provinciën (F-802) in commissioned 2002
HNLMS Tromp (F-803) in commissioned in 2003
HNLMS De Ruyter (F-804) in commissioned 2004
HNLMS Evertsen (F-805) in commissioned 2005
4 ships is ready service now first ship has upgrade new Modern weapons and new radar is “Evertsen” in 2025-2026 big upgrade and then next other ships ADCF-Frigate coming to upgrade

[eager dove]

Yes I am not saying they are not capable ships, they are

but they are dated by their nature and it would not be smart to take a dated design as the basis for your entire fleet for the next three or four decades

the Dutch themselves are looking to replace those four ships in the 2030's

[visual rover]

Yeah it’s ASW-Frigate

[eager dove]

We wanted a frigate that can do ASW and AAW with a big radar, that means a fairly big ship

[visual rover]

Mmmm Anti-Air Warfare Frigate former netherlands has this ship

Jacob van Heemskerck class Anti-Air Warfare Frigate this a AAW
HNLMS Jacob van Heemskerck (F-812)
HNLMS Witte de With (F-813)

But now netherlands has only “De Zeven Provinciën class ADCF-Frigates” better then Jacob van Heemskerck class

[versed tree]

Teach boat

[visual rover]

This De Zeven Provinciën class ADCF-Frigates (is 3 in 1 ship: anti-air and anti-ships/anti-submarine and anti-ground)

[grave ravine]

@ivory ridge Hungarian KF-51s are supposed to use the rh120

[ivory ridge]

🤨

[grave ravine]

Considering they also plan to base the vehicle on the Bergepanzer 2 hull, it's clear that it's really just a Leo 2 with extra steps, probably to try and cut KMW out

[ivory ridge]

Goofy

either way it's probably a combination of many factors

[spring briar]

lmao

[ivory ridge]

1. it's unlikely that rheinmetall would allow licensed production (i know they let the kf41 but that's a different thing)
2. it's probably gonna take even longer than waiting for the 2a8
3. ...if it even actually ends up in production, it's at an insanely early stage at this point

would rather wait for the mgcs to be finalized than dive into the panther

[spring briar]

mhm

mgcs tank where are you

[grave ravine]

Oh yeah IMO KF-51 is just kind of a stupid tank

Hungary just got sweet talked by the RHM salesmen into buying their Leo 2 with extra steps

[versed tree]

https://tenor.com/view/atsuko-blue-archive-eating-eat-burger-gif-1087858700201019049

[rocky wigeon]

https://www.ssusc.org/news/2024/02/13/press-release-conservancy-issues-plea-to-president-biden-members-of-congress-to-help-secure-new-home-for-americas-flagship

Things ain't looking pretty for her..

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zdbjIjKchI

[frozen kestrel]

Quick question: What program do you use to extract the models?

[lime scarab]

Kinda like the constellation class being planed and being built soon

[visual rover]

Today 14 February 2024 (back time in 1939) the “Bismarck” launch ship in water is her brithday

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1757441849080553744

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1929, Congress authorized the construction of the U.S. Navy's first purpose-built aircraft carrier, USS Ranger. The cost to build the Ranger was equivalent to $260 million in 2024. As lead ship in the next generation of carriers, USS Gerald R. Ford cost $13 billion.

Twitter · Feb 13, 2024, 4:29 PM

[narrow rover]

Basedmarck's hull form always looked bizarre to me

[visual rover]

Just today Valentine’s Day with Bismarck brithday

[narrow rover]

Fuck today is Valentine's day

[visual rover]

[narrow rover]

Surely this is the world telling me to go out and get some [bleep]

[strong plank]

🎵 disappointment of a nation, hulking waste of steel🎵

[runic ermine]

I love this paint job
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3J3m8qrHFo/?igsh=MWFicGFvMGJuMWUzMQ==

thesonsofman

2025 ☦️☦️☦️🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷 #greekmilitary #orthodoxy #based #men #motivation #greece #bible #icons #jets

Likes

17534

Instagram

Sorry I sent a link cuz I couldn't get a screenshot

[tough quail]

that probably has something to do with the hullform being very poor in terms of seakeeping and iirc structural integrity in general

[eternal veldt]

Gamesmodel3d has them all. Google it.

[desert agate]

ill be honest i didnt realise CSC was running spy-7 which is my bad

[cinder escarp]

I can argue that CEAFAR 2 is ridiculously top heavy tho

[subtle prawn]

What did you believe it had before then?

[manic latch]

Superior Canadian radar technology

Instead Puny US exported

[subtle prawn]

Same radar as the future Spanish F-110 frigates and Japanese ASEVs

[runic ermine]

Happy bismarck launch day

[humble jewel]

Her sinking, 1941 (colorized)

[visual rover]

she sinking in 1941

[humble jewel]

RIP bozo

[visual rover]

The wreck Bismarck

[humble jewel]

[humble jewel]

Bro died like Whitebeard

Still standing

[visual rover]

😂😂

Her sister Tirpitz in 1 April (Brithday - launch ship in water)

[humble jewel]

[narrow rover]

Kinda surprising BasedMarck's wreck is standing so straight up

[humble jewel]

She's literally Whitebeard fr

[narrow rover]

I don't know much about its structural integrity but
It's W I D E

[strong plank]

The better to eat 13.5inch shells with

For all the overhyping Bismarck gets

It’s funny how much of a shitbox it actually was

[manic latch]

https://youtu.be/oVWEb-At8yc?si=mKa53eswHrGTjaEB

Wonder what's causing the hype

Like imagine being a stranger to ships and you listen this song of Johnny Horton

So Bismarck is

biggest ship
biggest guns with shells big as trees
fastest ship that ever sailed

[strong plank]

when it was actually

None of those

[manic latch]

A stranger won't know

[eternal veldt]

At the end of the day, it's a song - artistic liberty says whatever it wants.

It certainly isn't accurate.

[manic latch]

Now for Sabaton

[strong plank]

“b-but its armor was so good it couldn’t be sunk”

[manic latch]

King of the Ocean

Why?

No clue

[strong plank]

our underwater archeological report found that to be a lie

[manic latch]

"""""He""""""" was made to "rule the seven seas"

[manic latch]

Sadly ye

But it's one of those factors that hyped the Bismarck

[narrow rover]

I mean just the story of it is just so insane

[alpine onyx]

I'd dare say that most warships of WW2 that people talk about these days are overhyped

Because that's how internet culture works

[strong plank]

Not really?

Plenty of ships were sunk on their first deployment

[narrow rover]

I mean, there aren't a lot of BB last stands

Also that song by Sabaton

TO LEAD THE WAR MACHINE

[strong plank]

If by last stand you mean Bismarck getting

Casting couch-ed by the home fleet

[narrow rover]

A part of me thinks British ideas contributed a fair bit much like Rommel's story
The Desert Fox was in reality very outnumbered and mostly just trying not to die to everyone

But he had some success in Africa and thus the British needed an excuse... "our enemy was a fucking genius!"

[strong plank]

Rommel was good at propaganda and blaming others

[eternal veldt]

It's a bit of both - The British painted Bismarck a powerful image so Hood's loss doesn't look as that terrible

And in her defence, it's not every day you can claim that a battleship sank another (Please don't start the Hood is BC/BB argument) capital ship in WWII.

[strong plank]

it's ironic how bismarck gets trumpeted out

while the scharns are relegated to "lol who" status

[eternal veldt]

It has to do with Hood's status - Pride of the Royal Navy, and the one of the heaviest/mightiest capital ships launched at her time.

[strong plank]

but yeah I just think it's comical how bismarck gets the "it had the mightiest guns!" mantra

looks at literally every other navy
406/407mm

[eternal veldt]

Keep in mind that we are talking crowds that nearly crushed a woman and her child to death just to see her. She's a big deal, and losing her is....a bit of a news headline, like it or not.

I mean, I won't stop shilling Washington's....treatment to Kirishima.

Depress the guns from loading angles just to blast her right in the stern - and causing enough confusion that her escort DDs thought Kirishima got torpedoed

Doesn't get more based than that.

[strong plank]

admiral lee the legend

[eternal veldt]

But really, I feel some fame to her is at least credible, even though overblown as it is.

It's the same stuff with Texas.

[strong plank]

don't get me wrong, the texas wank is annoying too

but at least with that they're not overhyping the ship out of proportion

[solid mango]

Have a goober

[strong plank]

thats a damn good weathering job

[eternal veldt]

Eh, it has to do with her destroying one ship, I feel - and Sabaton assisting it.

Meanwhile, other kinds of fancy stories get drowned out unless you're really interested.

Very few people sing praises of Repulse's captain for dodging 19 torpedoes before getting nailed, for example.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdPda3NazKI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucY4_p82vIA

[solid mango]

When it comes to Cleb all I see is just Augusta bay this, Augusta bay that like bru

[eternal veldt]

Cleveland's fairly overshadowed by her sisters

Birmingham comes to mind

[solid mango]

Like sure, it was part of her "most memorable 36 hours" but Tinian Isles exists

[eternal veldt]

Houston's also worth mentioning

[solid mango]

Houston too for me

Yue

[eternal veldt]

Drinking 6k tons of water and still living - Close call.

Probably helpful that most of her crew came from Helena.

[solid mango]

[heady sail]

Really only the wehraboos are influenced by sabaton.

The damage was done by 80 years of propaganda and lies by both the British and the Germans.
Also historians picking up this propaganda and treating it as a fact.

The Bismarck wasn't a good ship.
Not really on par of any late generation of battleship.

It had many obsolete features, like turtleback armour, torpedo tubes and twin turrets.

[eternal veldt]

Torpedo tubes?.... I think you might be mistaking her with Tirpitz.

And regardless, those are not underwater tubes much like the predecessing dreadnoughts.

That said, the H-39s did have those - all for disposing of merchant ships.

[solid mango]

She also kinda overshadow some of her sisters, Montpelier also had 13 battlestars but e

[heady sail]

Yeah.
Tho it show how the Germans did use an obsolete feature on their battleship.
Also the Scharnhost had torpedo tubes.

If you are in a battleship and need to use torpedo tubes you already fucked up and you are dead.

[eternal veldt]

and there's quite a few things iffy with Bismarck's armour scheme - not even just the citadel layout, just the weather deck itself last I checked is a pretty big mess - thanks to Sirene.

[solid mango]

Denver's was funky, propulsion system problems here and there, makes it memorably comical

[eternal veldt]

That's a bit of a toss up - The Germans are intending to use them for surface raiding against merchant ships.

In that sense, it's better to use a torpedo rather than draining your magazine for encounters with other capital ships.

[heady sail]

Yeah, but if you expect a battleship to use them you are using them wrong.

The us kinda dropped torpedo on ships larger that a destroyer completely during the war.

[heady sail]

The H-39 was an upscaled Bismarck and had every defect the Bismarck had upscaled.

[eternal veldt]

I mean, again, this pertains more to their doctrine of using heavy surface raiders rather than the ships themselves, in my opinion.

In a similar vein how the Japanese would retain torpedoes on their heavy cruisers - granted, it did blow Mikuma and Suzuya up, but Savo Island did show that they are effective when employed correctly.

[eternal veldt]

They made it somewhat worse protection wise - a thicker deck IIRC, but a thinner belt.

[manic latch]

I'm holding myself

OK I can't

[eternal veldt]

...and that, according to jaba's calculations, results in an even worse vulnerability zone against the 16"/45. Good job.

[manic latch]

https://youtu.be/jS94-_zy3Dg?si=hmVXauxQ_JvwPLfp

[heady sail]

The armour scheme is completely useless.
It doesn't incorporate all the postwar developments.

Kinda the Bismarck would be an exceptional ship if only was built in the '20s, in the '40s, not so much...

[eternal veldt]

Well, it kinda works - against the older British 15" guns.

But, rather pointless since the ship is surrounded and smacked around at that point - and an invulnerable citadel is moot if your ship is reduced to a floating hulk.

[heady sail]

It's the whole concept of using a battleship for convoy raiding that is wrong.

Matapan is what happens when you try to do that.

The Italians sent a whole battle fleet to do convoy raiding and fell in a trap of the English.

[eternal veldt]

The point of using a battleship against a convoy is because other ships of the KM can't handle it, I believe.

[heady sail]

Bar the Japanese, who had the long Lance, everybody considered torpedo for defense.
If you have to use them you are pretty much dead.
That's why the US navy stopped using them on anything bigger that a DD.

[manic latch]

US focused on long range artillery doctrine so torps were useless

[eternal veldt]

Graf Spee had early successes until getting cornered and intentionally fed misinformation. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau also did acceptably in Operation Berlin - that is, until the pair saw Ramillies and opted not to engage - and turned tail and fled as soon as Rodney appeared - because the CO knew they cannot engage the battleships escorting that convoy.

As for the US navy, it's not just that - the NWC did a series of wargames in 1930 that ruled torpedoes as useless against air power - and even more a hazard against planes. 50% of the time, the cruisers did not utilize it.

[heady sail]

I'm not sure the citadel would have enough buoyancy by itself.
I read somewhere that the Scharnhost citadel wouldn't have enough buoyancy to float and their calculations were wrong.

[eternal veldt]

Right, then the question is: Is the Japanese doctrine also inherently wrong?

Granted, the "nine phase battle" plan they have going is incredibly naive and optimistic.

[heady sail]

The Kriegsmarine was a mess tbh.

[heady sail]

And they were right.
If you want to use torps airplanes are more effective anyway.

[eternal veldt]

I don't think it matters at that point - All of Bismarck's armament was knocked out and the ship's conning tower is turned into swiss cheese - My point is, on paper, it seems to fare well against the older British 15" guns.

Greatly not helping is Rodney's opening salvos knocking out Bismarck's gunnery director.

[heady sail]

Yeah, the whole "kantai kessen" is so wrong and completely rooted in their failed culture that is astounding.

[eternal veldt]

and honestly? The British are much more prudent after the destruction of Hood.

[heady sail]

Also regarding torps, they were wrong

[eternal veldt]

Renown was ordered explicitly by Tovey to hold distance in light of Hood's destruction.

[heady sail]

The whole idea behind the Yamato was wrong

[eternal veldt]

The QEs and Rs are "out of the question" in planning an operation against Tirpitz.

Less rooted culture, more an influence from the success of Tsushima, I feel.

[heady sail]

I heard when they discovered her wreck they established the English didn't pen her citadel's armour.

[eternal veldt]

Where the enemy sails right into your carefully laid out plans - That's just not happening with the US navy with the adoption of the Island Hopping Campaign.

The armour belt has no holes in it - but 2 406mm shells went right into her machinery anyway.

[strong plank]

You say that but Bismarck got torpedoed by Rodney

[eternal veldt]

In the Japanese coping dream of US sailing merilly to the Philippines and the entire Pacific Fleet sent to their doom - sure, it works.

But then they have the bright idea of crippling the fleet before it even makes to battle. We know where that goes.

[heady sail]

It's an exceptional situation.
While fighting the Bismarck the RN was basically firing point blank on her.

[strong plank]

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/12480849/the-wreck-of-dkm-bismarck-a-marine-forensics-analysis-1-the-

[eternal veldt]

But honestly, given KM's perception that convoy raiding is their best chance in assisting the war effort, at least it made sense for Bismarck to sortie.

[heady sail]

It's also their complete nonsense honour culture.

Many problems of the Japanese track back to that.

Like the complete inflexibility of command structures.

[eternal veldt]

It's not like the KM has the numbers of surface ships to challenge the Royal Navy in any decisive manner.

[heady sail]

Also, even if they succeeded somehow in winning their decisive battle on which they based their entire doctrine, the US can simply build another fleet in six months.

[eternal veldt]

Well, their idea is that the destruction of the fleet would demoralize the US into bargaining with the Japanese.

That idea is out of the window with the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.

[strong plank]

No not really

[solid mango]

I dont recall the entire story anymore due to overblown and out of proportion story telling... What again

[heady sail]

They kinda wanted to do the same thing even with Pearl Harbor, they wanted the us to lift the oil embargo.

[strong plank]

Depending on when this hypothetical battle happens, you’d have to look at what ships were already ordered and close to completion

[eternal veldt]

Allegedly, Rodney closed in enough that the ship torpedoed Bismarck - I don't think there is currently conclusive evidence.

[eternal veldt]

Right, but the problem is Pearl Harbor did the exact opposite and cemented the US determination to unconditional surrender.

[solid mango]

Im forgor wher Rodknee's torpebos are located... was it fore?

[eternal veldt]

One of the keys here being that war has not been declared at the time.

[heady sail]

They could specialise in a dedicated raiding fleet.
Overweight ships like Bismarck and h-39 are just a magnet for bombs.
They should have continued to build small cruisers and pocket battleships.

[eternal veldt]

Should be under the ship in their tubes.

[eternal veldt]

Ah, but they wanted to do that - with the Handelzerstoerer and the P-class.

The P-class was enough of a shitshow, and convoy escorts proving to be tough enough that they needed to be uparmed. What you get is the O-class.

Then the disaster at Barents Sea happened and Mr.Moustache man shut down the entire surface fleet.

[solid mango]

Sadge Raeder moment

[eternal veldt]

And there is also the slight problem of the hypothetical enemy - the French.

Dunkerque basically slams on the Panzerschiffe in every single way through sheer size.

[heady sail]

The Japanese where never going to outproduce the US.

I don't remember who said that the one who benefited the most from the Washington naval treaty were the Japanese because, otherwise they would make their economy explode.

[strong plank]

I didn’t say they would

[eternal veldt]

and any German ship is enough to get French blood boiling, so much so the French decided to shove a middle finger to the Scharnhorsts and beef up the Dunkerque - what you get is Strasbourg.

[heady sail]

Yeah, completely miscalculated on their part.

They tough the US would get out of the war in six months and lift the embargo like nothing happened.

[strong plank]

I’m saying the US can’t magic a capital ship into the sea in 6 months

[eternal veldt]

Therefore, it also made sense to have a ship that could whack the Dunkerques and Richelieus - and I think Bismarck is also the answer for that.

[eternal veldt]

the US technically did - with the battleships moored inwards.

Which fortunately were only damaged by bombs.

I think Maryland was ready again after.... 2~3 weeks ish?

[strong plank]

It took 2-3 years for battleship construction

no to build a new fleet

[eternal veldt]

If the whole fleet is lost and unsalvageable, then its a bit of a problem.

Case in point, the carrier situation around Guadalcanal.

No reinforcements forthcoming until 1943 with the Essexs and Independences.

[desert agate]

Pearl Harbour was realistically the only option Japan had left

[spring briar]

https://tenor.com/view/luna-cat-plinker-plink-gif-1317261633404946088

[eternal veldt]

let Germans have their dreams

[heady sail]

The O-class is already too big.
It would get sunk by the British really fast, I think.
They would need something fast and nimble for convoy raiding.
Something like a big destroyer.
But probably subs are better anyway.

[desert agate]

It was either attack the democratic powers or leave China, the latter was a non starter thus the former had to happen

[strong plank]

like silver what I’m trying to say is

if hypothetically, Japan got the decisive BB showdown at around the time midway happened

[eternal veldt]

But that's the problem - the British found that convoys can get through unscathed by simply plopping an old battleship right in the middle of it.

[heady sail]

They were kinda pumping an Essex class out every eight months.

[eternal veldt]

And convoys that can get through are detrimental to the war effort.

[manic latch]

Carriers are easier to build than BBs

[desert agate]

Essex class construction took multiple years regardless

[manic latch]

You dont need large armor construction

[eternal veldt]

the Essexs are authorized in 1940 in the Carl-Vinson act

it took them 3 years to service

[desert agate]

They were commissioned regularly by virtue of the massive order

[eternal veldt]

If the ship is say, lost in 1941 december

[desert agate]

Essex herself doesn't arrive in Pearl until late December 1942

[strong plank]

They took 2-4 years to build

[eternal veldt]

then at the earliest you are looking at a keel laying date of early 1942

[strong plank]

Say the USN’s battleship fleet goes down in mid 1942

The U.S. then has, in terms of battleships

[desert agate]

It's incredibly difficult to start construction of a ship, you need to assemble materials, draw up designs, retool shipyards and prepare subcontractors

[eternal veldt]

Ah, we have the perfect example

Kentucky

Laid down March 1942

[strong plank]

1-2 sodaks, depending on if they pushed Massachusetts into the fleet

[eternal veldt]

Barely complete by 1945

and Illinois is in even more fetal condition

[strong plank]

then the Iowas wouldn’t enter service until 1943

then whatever they commissioned right after the battle, which would enter service ‘44 at the earliest

[manic latch]

[heady sail]

The Dunkerque was in response to the Graf Spee, which in turn prompted the Italians to build the Littorio, which in turn prompted the french to build the Richelieu, which promts the Germans to build the overweight Bismarck.

[eternal veldt]

Point is, if it is a total loss, 6 months is a bit of a stretch

[eternal veldt]

Exactly. That's why it needed to be built, inefficient as it is.

[strong plank]

Because it turns out taking tons of steel and making a warship of it takes a while

[desert agate]

Increasing battleship orders after mid 42 assuming some catastrophic defeat of the USN surface fleet is a very tall order

I won't lie it's definitely one of the few situations where the US might take a negotiated settlement with Japan

[manic latch]

Soviets would likely stick to 254mm Ansaldo cruisers if it wasn't for Scharnhorst appearance

[eternal veldt]

Because the last thing you want is the Force de Raid going out and trashing your Panzerschiffe, which already has enough of a problem hunting down merchant ships as they are starting to form convoys.

[manic latch]

Thus Kronk

But Kronk couldn't beat Dunks in war games

[spring briar]

actually no

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

same issues as KGV

[heady sail]

Yeah, they wanted something to deal with the Graf Spee at the beginning. Later they decided for 12inch guns to counter the Scharnhost.

[eternal veldt]

Is Toilet TDS one of them again

[manic latch]

That's why Kursk aka Project X had 240mm guns, it was for Spees

[spring briar]

depends

[eternal veldt]

Mfw Germany builds Doitzlands and everybody shits their pants

for once, good job Germany

[heady sail]

The Kronshtadt was also really overweight.
Also they could built it...

[spring briar]

the Dlands are cute as well

[manic latch]

[eternal veldt]

and France just decides to train suplex them anyway with Dunkerque

shame about the war, though

[spring briar]

it happens

[manic latch]

Kronshtadt was heavy as Richelieu yes. That's why she has one of largest breasts in game

[eternal veldt]

🤨

[heady sail]

The British always had the Hood and repulse and renown, the Graf Spee would get annihilated by them.

[manic latch]

Likely lack of weight saving knowledge. Or else Stats of Kronshtadt is very similar to Alaska

[eternal veldt]

Well, what else can you really build with the Treaty of Versailles in place?

[spring briar]

btw

SIlver

*Silver

remember the toxic gas cartridges

[eternal veldt]

and in favour of your argument for more pocket BBs, finding a lone ship operating alone turns out to be very shippower-intensive.

[eternal veldt]

What about them

[heady sail]

Tbh the Soviets started things they could never complete.
Isn't also the Pr.23 as heavy as a Yamato, almost?

[manic latch]

She has same armor tonnage as Yamato yes

[spring briar]

194mm for coastal guns had em too

but much more

[manic latch]

Designed against 406mm AP

Tho she overdid it

[eternal veldt]

That's... 8 caps?

[heady sail]

Yeah, but you have to remember BC existed, while designing the Graf Spee the Germans kinda ignored them.

[eternal veldt]

Let's be real, there's some insane thinking behind the protection scheme

[manic latch]

Tank logic

Yup

[spring briar]

9 caps

[eternal veldt]

and my point is that finding that ship specifically with a BC is not an easy buisness. That's the gamble Germany went for and it somewhat paid off.

Even though River Plate ends with Graf Spee's destruction, we also see how badly mauled Exeter ends up.

[heady sail]

Let's not talk about some proposals for the Pr.23 bis or Pr.24.

Like the one which had four triple turrets and was 70000 tons.

[manic latch]

Oh yeah let me teach Nemo in why

[eternal veldt]

"immunity against 406mm shells at all angles at a 20 degree zone"

[manic latch]

@heady sail guess why Soyuz picked Second option for belt

[eternal veldt]

• statement by the utterly deranged

[spring briar]

how to destroy your timely build schedule

[heady sail]

No, I meant like the design.
The Graf Spee was designed to be more armed that a cruiser but faster than a BB, but they kinda forgot about British BCs.

[eternal veldt]

Actually, come to think of it - if the toxic gas is such a problem, then surely sealing the caps off would have problems after Dakar?

[manic latch]

because it gives equal protection for whole belt against 406mm at this angle of approach allctimes

Sloped armor logic on a battleship

[eternal veldt]

Yea, and I'm saying the design has only 10k tons - and it needs to work as a cruiser that is faster than a BB. Of course it cannot satisfy against a BC.

Renown and Repulse is twice that displacement - of course they can afford to have bigger guns and better protection at that.

It's the same story with Dunkerque annihilating Deutschland on every single aspect of the holy trinity - just by virtue of being beeeg.

[spring briar]

but the 380's were never fitted with the capsules

[eternal veldt]

But they designed the caps for the shells- so surely they anticipate a gas problem?

[heady sail]

~soviet steel mills couldn't make any cemented armour thicker than 230mm~

[manic latch]

Do you know what you do when that happens

[eternal veldt]

or actually, I don't think I've seen similar shell caps for other nations' shells.

[manic latch]

You go Yamato option

Yamato wasn't cemented armor as well

Japan couldn't do those

She use face hardened

[eternal veldt]

Remember, the real Japanese cope

is Diesel propulsion Yamato

On the verge of greatness, you were

[heady sail]

Yeah, then they should have sticked to heavy cruisers at most, like every serious navy did.

[heady sail]

You send the chief engineer to the gulag?

[manic latch]

This

[eternal veldt]

But how else can they do that when what's left of your navy is either a pile of scrap at the bottom of Scapa Flow or otherwise unmodernized?

[heady sail]

I think only the face of the turrets, the rest was cemented armour.

[manic latch]

Ngl I should modify wiki page of Yamato for armor, specify its not cemented steel

[eternal veldt]

This is like saying the fledgling United States in 1790 should immediately build 74-gun ships like the Royal/French Navy rather than pioneering the six original frigates.

[manic latch]

That's America lol

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

Japan is literally non cemented steel for Yamato

"Armor plates in both the main belt and main turrets were made of Vickers Hardened steel, which was a face-hardened steel armor"

[eternal veldt]

I think the Deutschlands are the best they could do out of the 10,000 ton restrictions they were imposed upon.

Unfortunately, just not so effective when your mission is to kill convoys, and said convoy has a BB in it.

[spring briar]

they should've let me design the shells tho

[narrow rover]

Focus on coastal defense or something

But then again... that wasn't wat the Germanns wanted

[eternal veldt]

Coastal defence is coastal defence - you have no real way to project your power as a nation.

[manic latch]

Richel: Traitor

[heady sail]

Tbh they kinda were the only one who had considerably powerful diesel engines in working order.
The Germans on the Spee put so many in case of failure.

Also the Italians were really looking into big diesel engines for their hypotetical fleet for the Indian Ocean.
Fiat nevertheless never managed to make them work.

The Costanzo Ciano, raiding cruisers for the Indian Ocean, in some iterations of the projects had diesel engines.

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

what

remember molotov von ribbentrop

[narrow rover]

Yea
Sadly Germany would in any scenario want to do that 'expand into Eastern europe' thing again in the wake of WW1

[manic latch]

Vichy France

[spring briar]

doesn't even phase me

[manic latch]

Of course

[eternal veldt]

Diesel in general is just economic with a good cruising range.

[narrow rover]

Have you nuked Paris today?

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/devilman-crybaby-dmcb-nuke-paris-crybaby-gif-24064900

[spring briar]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/754155230819778640/1206831379397214288/image0.gif

[eternal veldt]

It's a bit complicated - The German people felt that they have been backstabbed, as I'm sure you are aware with the Dolchstosslegende.

[manic latch]

Doll schlong

[eternal veldt]

The army/navy seemingly surrendered when all is going well - What exactly happened?

[narrow rover]

Yea
You kinda have to... defeat Germany more throughly in order to stop WW2

[eternal veldt]

Then comes Versailles with the amount of sanctions on Germany - even more hard feelings.

Foch was right

[narrow rover]

Imagine a more competent Germany

[heady sail]

Either you have a lot of naval bases for resupply, like the french or the British, or have impressive supply train like the Americans, the axis nations had none of this and had to put their hopes in diesel engines.

[spring briar]

and she cute af

[eternal veldt]

It actually also had to do with why German ships are so ridiculously overweight.

[narrow rover]

Though you might still have Japan starting some shit even without the Germans
Invade the Russians or something I'm sure that'll go better

[eternal veldt]

Hipper, per my memory, has a fuck ton of redundant systems and workshops.

[spring briar]

right
Silver
I got info on Suffren's involvement in Indochina

[eternal veldt]

Now add "absurb cruising range" as a requirement - it bloats so much.

[manic latch]

[narrow rover]

No

[eternal veldt]

And, no offense, why also Littorio on paper also seems to work at 35~40k ton range - the cruising is limited to the Mediterranean.

[spring briar]

wdym no

[eternal veldt]

Fought against the Japanese, no?

[narrow rover]

No
Nein

[spring briar]

well you're wrong

[heady sail]

Yeah, they kinda used tonnes so freely.
Quite the contrary of the Japanese which made their ships of cardboard and paper.

Both had poor seaworthiness, though.

[eternal veldt]

I remember some people very salty about Suffren in game because of Vietnam

[spring briar]

Suffren was just supressing shore batteries

[eternal veldt]

Well, the Japanese signed the WNT/LNT - so they have to comply until they don't.

Ryuujou was an attempt to exploit the WNT carrier loophole - it fucked up badly, safe to say

[heady sail]

Yeah, they are almost 15000 tons.

The Zara, for example at 12000 tons, for a ship made ten years earlier, so much better.

[manic latch]

Zara

Hnng

[spring briar]

On the island of Cat Ba, in the bay of Haiphong

[eternal veldt]

Yea, but again, lots of redundant systems on board

[narrow rover]

Hipper's design is pure ape shit

[heady sail]

They should have dismantled Germany at Versailles tbh.

[manic latch]

Turtleback

Is cringe on hipper

[eternal veldt]

They're certainly not tonnage efficient, but tonnage inefficient doesn't immediately translate to bad ship, in my opinion

granted, stupid shit like Bluecher happens

[manic latch]

Up-41 best gift

[eternal veldt]

already bad for them patriots 😛

[spring briar]

hehe
Suffren fired 69 shots at the shore batteries

[heady sail]

Littorio isn't overweight tho.
She is fine. Bismarck is more than 50k tons and is a considerably inferior ships.

[narrow rover]

Here's the thing about stopping WW2
...we still have so many more points where something could have broken out

[spring briar]

closer to 40k tons

[eternal veldt]

Littorio technically did get out of the 35k ton requirement.

[manic latch]

As mentioned, Littorio has one of worst ranges among BBs

Since she was designed that way

[alpine onyx]

Clearly, submarines

[spring briar]

sirene will give the more accurate number

[narrow rover]

Submarines

[eternal veldt]

and there are some aspects that are otherwise not tolerable in other nations - the Ro.43s would like to have a word with you with the amount of bullying they received.

[alpine onyx]

/s.

[alpine onyx]

Wat, no

[eternal veldt]

bomb damage

RO.43 gets knocked over

[manic latch]

Fixed Hipper

[eternal veldt]

torpedo damage

RO.43 gets knocked over

[alpine onyx]

Littorio was 40,500 tons standard, around that number

[eternal veldt]

Turret 3 fires

[alpine onyx]

Bismarck was 41,700 standard

[eternal veldt]

RO.43 gets obliterated

[spring briar]

there we go

closer to 40k
nowhere near 50k

which people love to say

hyperbole moment

[eternal veldt]

nice subs you got there

[narrow rover]

BasedMarck just has a heavy full load due to the amount of fuel on that crazy thing

[eternal veldt]

would be a shame if England literally says "I don't care about the R-class and its improvements" and literally shits out a fuck ton of Flower-class corvettes and WEP destroyers just to blow your U-boats out of the bottom

[alpine onyx]

Unless we use full loads, but by then you will find all of the modern battleships in the late 40s/early 50s in tons

[eternal veldt]

Oh wait looks at 70% attrition rate

[visual rover]

Its soviet cruiser Tallinn?

[heady sail]

Also the tomozuro incident and the whole incident with the fourth fleet showed how badly their ships were designed.

[manic latch]

Yes Sang

[eternal veldt]

Actually, wait, Sirene, I got a good idea

[alpine onyx]

Or, we do the modern way, and use the newspaper figures for all ships but Bismarck, who gets full load, so SoDak is "35,000" tons and Bismarck 50,000

[eternal veldt]

Ask France to go on an inspection of Surcoof

[spring briar]

you're
not fooling anyone

[alpine onyx]

I swear, totally legit comparisons

[heady sail]

If only we got the preliminary design of the Zara with 200mm of belt armour at 15000 tons...

[eternal veldt]

Then build your own 8" submarines for convoy raiding

Now kiss

🧠

[alpine onyx]

Bismarck did have an above average fuel capacity, so not entirely inaccurate

But also not the full story

[eternal veldt]

Don't Germany's newspapers advertise Bismarck at 35k tons at the time?

[alpine onyx]

Yep

[manic latch]

Soyuz's fuel was pretty small

[eternal veldt]

tolerable endurance for RU, I guess?

Littorio's at 4000nm IIRC.

[manic latch]

Likely Italian influence

[eternal veldt]

and dear fuck, pls no UP.41

that thing's armour scheme makes me want to gouge my eyes out

[manic latch]

[heady sail]

Or give the crown to the Wittelsbach.

No, but seriously, without Hitler you probably have either an Entente intervention in Russia or France starts some shits.

Both the Italians and the British feared France to start a war.

The British considered the Italians an ally in this hypothetical war.

[eternal veldt]

deck protection: diejoubu

[spring briar]

Lmao

[heady sail]

Wdym, Littorio was designed to operate in the closed waters of the Mediterranean.

[narrow rover]

What Bismarck should have been

[manic latch]

Exactly

No range for Atlantic or Pacific

[eternal veldt]

There is the "breakout" fleet planned - which I'm sure nemo has more details than me.

[heady sail]

The arado 196 is not a considerably better idroplane.
Also they were kinda looking for a replacement in the Re 2000.

[eternal veldt]

Oh, I'm not saying the Ro.43 is bad.

I'm saying the hangar capacity for Littorio is not adequete - or, plainly, zero.

That, for example, is not acceptable in the Royal Navy.

[manic latch]

Stalin said capitalism leads to wars and expected another great war to happen, so Soviets would wait while capitalist nations tear each other out and then attack at their weakest point.

[eternal veldt]

or Germany for that regard, I think. Most Ar 196s have their own hangars.

[eternal veldt]

and that is also an unfortunate scenario of the Ca.316 not actually going on board the Littorios as expected.

[manic latch]

Ca-316 damn sexy