history

[shy grail]

You mean if the WWII one survived?

[merry summit]

Yup

[shy grail]

Ah ok then definitely Nelson followed by Valiant/QE/Renown

Although the top looks a bit off

[merry summit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuQ5oQZAIQI There it is, the full video that is edited out of the British Pathe documentary into the patriotic song for Britain.

For me, British ships are harder to identify

outside of most noticable ones

[heady sail]

Eh, the Independence class are a case of their own, they were an hastily converted light cruiser hull due the Carrier Panic of the first period of the war.
Nevertheless they weren't a bad ship per se.

But there are other light aircraft carriers which were better.

Still, everything considered, I would take 1 independence over a Yamato

[shy grail]

Depends on the scenario, of course, in Pacific ig yeah, in Mediterranean 1940-1941 absolutely not

[shy grail]

For the speed the Independence class is the best

You then have Hiyou class which is a special modified conversion (but not really a light carrier)

[heady sail]

The thing that the Italian navy lacked throughout the Mediterranean war was air cover, and the radar. I probably would take a independence over a Littorio

[shy grail]

Then you have Unicorn, and that’s it, until later with the Saipans and 1942 British light carriers (commissioned late 1944)

[shy grail]

You don’t have any carrier air expertise

No way it’s going to be useful until too late

Just going to either suffer horrifically at Taranto and die or not useful at all

No TDS

[heady sail]

Especially considering, that like in Germany, the Italian aircraft carriers were killed by their air force, and started the conversion of the Aquila only after the battle of Matapan showed them the importance of the air cover.

[shy grail]

You don’t have the resources for one anyway

There are already struggling to build Littorio and Vittorio Veneto because they tried to rebuild the Duilios

And amount of time and money invested needed to design a light carrier in the first place isn’t easy

[heady sail]

1. in 1939 Italy had like 2/3 of their dockyards empty.

2)The Navy was asking for a carrier since the '20, but given that the air force was founded by the fascists always had the precedence, and the air force was incredibly opposed to a carrier.

[shy grail]

You don’t have the steel during that time, and you don’t have the money in the 20s

The Italians need first and foremost a cruiser force

[heady sail]

The bit about them struggling to build the littorios is untrue. Probably if they kept the Impero in Genoa they would have completed her.

[shy grail]

If you wanted to fix their recon issues then a seaplane cruiser would be much better

[shy grail]

The first 2 not Impero

[heady sail]

I give you that the reconstruction of the Duilios was a waste of money, but was politically motivated. They cost almost as a whole littorio. (Like 780millions of Lire against 800millions.)

[heady sail]

Italy had many carrier designs and carrier conversions designs since the end of the first world war.

They weren't built due the opposition of the air force

[shy grail]

Like even if you don’t rebuild the Duilios you have to drop a Littorio to do so, and if you do that carrier is going to die at Taranto before you can do anything with it

[shy grail]

Well yes, but air force is only part of the issue (a big one, yes), the other big one is money

You either sack the cruisers (not worth) or the DDs (even more not worth)

[heady sail]

They had a good cruiser force. Exactly the same numbers as France. As I said, during the war they needed the aircraft carrier and the radar.

[heady sail]

A radar would have been much better at this point. It's not like the Pacific

[heady sail]

The first 2 were completed before the start of the war. And they were largely completed in time tho. Same as the Roma. What killed the Impero was that she sat in Taranto the majority of the war, and when she arrived at Trieste it was too late.

[shy grail]

Err, no, they need to find the British fleet, which needs recon

[shy grail]

They commissioned, but it was 6 months to a year late, a d not ready to sail until August, which meant they missed Calabria

[autumn sorrel]

Oi Pit @sleek folio Italian Carrier discussion here

[heady sail]

If you have a radar Taranto isn't going to happen anyway. Moreover I noticed that in the English historiography the importance of Taranto is really overstressed, when in fact it wasn't that important. Italy only lost the Littorio for a couple of months and the Cavour was raised and a retrofit to improve AA was scheduled.

[sleek folio]

damn too much text

[shy grail]

The number of times the British fleet casually passes by the Italians and then eventually Germans is quite astonishing really, they don’t find them 3 times (Hats, MB 6, and Grog), then the Italians wrong report the British force at Spartivento and don’t engage the far weaker force, and then they miss MB 5 because they detected the British too late

[shy grail]

Err no?

To prevent Taranto you need night recon

[heady sail]

Yeah, exactly. The British knew were the Italian fleet was thanks to the radar and thanks to Enigma.

[shy grail]

No that’s airplane reconnaissance, radar in the time period is short range and can’t find anything long range

If you are seriously asking the Italians to build better radars than the British well then that’s not possible with the electronic industry Italy has

[oak harness]

I only know as much as I do about the subject by listening to Drachinefel... was it really a situation where, due to the size of the theatre of operations in the Med, the Italian navy shouldn't have needed carriers and could've relied on land-based air... buuuuuuut the Air Force just flat refused to work with the Navy?

[shy grail]

Kinda, although the air force was also kinda just incompetent at this point

[chilly osprey]

With regards to the DP 120mm - I have no idea if it was purely internal or not. The RM had been working on getting a 120mm DP gun for a while, and Ansaldo seems to have been involved with most of them. They don't have mention of the 120/27 project in anything they've published, but the 120/42 also shows up, as do the 120/34 and 120/40 from 1939. They also have information on a 120/38 AA gun from Jan 1940 that I don't think I've seen mentioned before. Also interesting to note that they have external plans for the 120/42 cartridges (a 35 kg complete round from April 1940, brass, and a 36 kg complete round from August 1940, steel case).

It doesn't seem impossible that they could have gone from these to creating their own 120/50 solution - though for it to work in the stabilized mounts, a breakthrough would have been required to make them capable to taking much greater weight.

120mm DP projects of the RM in the 1930s-40s summarized;

[shy grail]

Not just the Italians though, the Germans also missed 3 fast convoys post Excess (partially due to bad weather

[autumn sorrel]

Inter service rivalry and add a bit of ideological difference with Navy still have a large element of Royalist that despise Fascism while Aeronautica is very much pro Fascist

[shy grail]

The British always had a carrier with them, so they knew where the Italians were

[heady sail]

Yeah, exactly, because they lacked the radar. Moreover England had to abort many refueling mission to Malta because they were discovered. And so we get to the other point. Malta, if they managed to take Malta at the start of the war you basically remove the British from the central Med. The unwillingness of the Germans to take Malta really cost the war.

[autumn sorrel]

Said who?

[shy grail]

At sea reconnaissance specifically

Not fighting

Because sea reconnaissance is just hard

[autumn sorrel]

That's more lack of coordination and less of the Aeronautica competency

[shy grail]

No if you had radar the British would still be able to pass you like they did in OTL

[chilly osprey]

Land-based airpower could have been a lot more useful if properly trained and resourced for the role, but the reality is a carrier can do a lot more for a fleet at sea than land-based airpower. It provides a much larger amount of scouting aircraft that is organic to the fleet, as well as fighter cover that can loiter over the fleet for far longer. Trying to get effective fighter cover from land is very hard, as aircraft cannot stay over the fleet long, and only at a certain distance from the coast. It was also very difficult to coordinate with air force fighters if they lacked pre-established ship to aircraft radio links.

[shy grail]

You can’t actually take Malta unless the Germans actually commit to it, instead of half assing around the entire thing

[heady sail]

It was at night and Italy had really an outdated method to find incoming aircraft. Like giving blind people big corns to hear the noise from the incoming planes... With a radar they would have seen them

[shy grail]

You also need to destroy the British fleet, which you can’t because your recon’s is failing

[shy grail]

It isn’t at night

Multiple days in daylight and the Italians still couldn’t find the British

[autumn sorrel]

Which RM realize it after Matapan, which is while Aquila was rush ahead and allocated more resources

[chilly osprey]

The RM realized it long before this

Matapan was frankly more important in getting Mussolini to weigh in against the air force

[autumn sorrel]

They kinda argue for it but pre war warplanner dismiss it

[shy grail]

More importantly you severely deplete your chances of destroying the British fleet if you sack your Littorios

[chilly osprey]

The RM's planning office requested a pair of carriers as the highest procurement priority basically every year from 1936 onwards

[heady sail]

The British could detect the Italian fleet thanks to the radar. That's why they always had the upper hand in night battles. The Italians knew this and always avoided fighting at night, that is why they always had to broke the pursuits of the English.

[chilly osprey]

But Cavagnari did not want to make them a priority over battleships and the air force was pretty resolved against the idea until 1939

[autumn sorrel]

Well, yeah. Matapan could progress differently had RM have a constant air patrol and better air recon

[shy grail]

No, carriers, not radar

Radar is only Matapan, and they almost screwed that one up

[chilly osprey]

Radar tbh wasn't hugely relevant at Matapan

Anywho, when we talk about recon

[shy grail]

I’m saying literally every other convoy

[chilly osprey]

Important to note that radar was still quite relevant to that for the British early in the war, just not in fighting the Italian ships at sea

[oak harness]

I see, but my point being that the inter-service squabbling meant that carriers went from 'nice to have' to 'legitimately the Only way the fleet get's Any air-support'.

[chilly osprey]

Early warning radar allowed them to vector their carrier fighters against Italian recon aircraft

[autumn sorrel]

Tbf, who are RM gonna use the Carrier against in the Med? In the pre war plan, their main rival was France

[chilly osprey]

Taking them down before they could make effective reports

[shy grail]

Radar is was important for RDF finding mainly in the Mediterranean to shoot down shadowing scouts

[oak harness]

And didn't the Royal Navy suffer a lot from having it's aircraft technically being under RAF purvue for awhile?

[shy grail]

Yeah ^

[shy grail]

Yeah

[autumn sorrel]

Are you thinking about Coastal Command?

[shy grail]

The development of aircraft in general

[oak harness]

I actually wasn', I was.. yeah. ErnestT got it.

[chilly osprey]

I mean, using them against France was one role. Let's not forget the French did have plenty of air bases in the Western Med.

Airpower being useful isn't just a question of "Can X aircraft fly Y distance across this expanse"

You also have to factor in the effective payloads aircraft can carry to what range, and also how long they can spend in the air for a given radius from their air base.

[shy grail]

Why the British are still operating Albacores, Fulmars, and Sea Hurricanes when their enemies have got Zeroes, Kates, Dauntlesses and Wildcats

[chilly osprey]

This is why a carrier is still very relevant in the Med even today

[heady sail]

Marconi was the one who theorised the radar. And in the '20 He presented some prototypes to the Italians. The Italians general were pretty impressed, but in the end they gave him no money. Italian radar efforts in the radar were restarted only after the battle of Matapan. At the beginning tried to get German licenses, but the German, being as usual useless and self-absorbed imposed prohibitive conditions on them. So Italy had basically to start from scratch in 1941, and the first working radar were only being produced and installed on ships in 1943. The Gufo Ter wasn't really that good, but surely was better than nothing. In the spring of 1943 they also completed the Gufo Quater wich was much better.

[heady sail]

They couldn't destroy the British fleet because they couldn't locate them, had limited oil and they had no air cover most of the time. The communication between the air force and the navy was really bad.

[shy grail]

They got the German ones starting in March 1942, and their own ones in September 1942 actually

[chilly osprey]

Ugo Tiberio was much more important to the development of radar in the RM than Marconi, tbh. He's the one who really got the ball rolling on it as a practical system circa 1935/36. The problem he had is that he was badly under-resourced for the issue, and the Italian electronic industry was not in a state to effectively support the development effort (at least, not without massive investment, which Tiberio advocated for).

Ex, only getting the necessary triodes to get to an 10 kW output in 1942, making the EC-3/ter possible in the first place

They could have still gotten radar earlier

But it would not have been competitive with what the Germans and British had

Ex, the EC-3/bis is probably the first model that could have realistically gone to the fleet by early 1940, and that had only a 1 kW output with a range of 12 km against a battleship-sized target (or 30 km vs aircraft).

[heady sail]

Italy lacked air cover in most of the battle, giving, more of less a range of 160km at most from the coast if they wanted air cover. Moreover, the air force and the navi communicated really badly, and so, even in the range of the air force, the utility of the plane was limited

[autumn sorrel]

Well, Italian did have SM79, which is an excellent aircraft that can fulfill the torpedo plane role in case they need to launch a strike on French port. Maybe that in their war game, the relative short range between them and France territories, the availability of the strike craft they already have may have play a role in the argument that Italy is fine with their existing airfield, rather than build Carrier?

[heady sail]

Consider that Matapan happened, because 1) was a completely bad thought mission, you don't go doing convoy raiding with a whole fleet, and 2) because they asked the German from Greece to put some planes up in the air but they refused given that was late afternoon.

[chilly osprey]

SM79 is not a fighter aircraft that can effectively protect the fleet from French air attack.

Moreover, despite the air force's insistence otherwise, the navy knew that level bombing was basically useless as an anti-shipping method, and the air force was still refusing to yield on the torpedo bombing issue up until 1939, so from the navy's perspective the air force wasn't especially effective as an anti-shipping force either. Only for bombing enemy naval bases and air fields.

[heady sail]

Had also radar and enigma

[chilly osprey]

The degree to which the Regia Aeronautica shot the collective Italian military in the foot over their obsession with totally independent operation and total control of fixed-wing aircraft is hard to overstate.

[heady sail]

It was better than the German one. And the British considered the Italian torpedo bombers one of the best.

[autumn sorrel]

Well yeah, I was arguing that before the war, we all know that RM and Aeronautica always argue over allowing RM have their own Air Arms, thing like first strike against enemy port must have been brought up and Aeronautica apparently had won the argument over it.

[heady sail]

Italy put radar on their ship starting from 1943. See Operation Scylla to see what happens when Italy had the radar

[autumn sorrel]

Only behind Goering in their obsession

[chilly osprey]

Starting from 1942, technically, but only in large numbers in 1943....

[heady sail]

Yeah, exactly my point

[chilly osprey]

I mean, more that when it came to trying to plan as a joint force, the army and navy would say "Ok, so to do this or that, we will need air force support"

And the air force would say "Yeah but air operations will decide everything so I can't spare anything, also I can't risk excessive aircraft losses for CAS or torpedo bombing. Just let us wage our independent war because Douhet" (nevermind the fact they did not follow Douhet's theories in practice).

Obviously crudely summarized, but, that is effectively what it boiled down to.

Remember, the Regia Aernoautica basically refused to do torpedo bombing until the Germans started buying Italian aerial torpedoes, and they did this by giving out crazier and crazier drop speed and altitude requirements for the aerial torpedoes the navy had to develop. Nevermind no one could agree who should be paying for the torpedoes between the navy and air force.

They also refused to allow the navy control fixed-wing aircraft for torpedo bombing, or fighter cover, or even recon, insisting this was their responsibility - and then put zero work into this themselves up to the war.

This is part of the reason the Italians had the issues with recon they did

[heady sail]

There was a brief window at the start of the war were on Malta there were just 4000 soldiers. If they did at the start Italy could have taken it alone. After the British reinforced Malta they needed the German, which weren't interested in the Mediterranean. When the German finally agreed to the operation, you have that overvalued of Rommel stupidly advancing in the desert. So the Italians had to take the ships that they prepared for the landing operations to supply Rommel. And for whatever Rommel wrote, they did that egregiously.

[autumn sorrel]

I forgot about this but which school of thought that won the doctrinal argument in Italy over the use of Air force?

[chilly osprey]

The only aircraft they had direct ship to air or air to ship links with were the Ro.43's launched from the carriers and ships.

The air force did not train crews for long endurance recon flights over water either, when they had regular bombers do it.

[heady sail]

The English, thanks to the intelligence, knew the routes of the Italian fleet, and avoided them

[chilly osprey]

And the navy's recon force flying from land seaplane bases was mainly made up of the obsolescent Z.501's, so they desperately needed the SM79's and Z.1007's to be good at that recon job.

[heady sail]

Yeah, exactly, they wanted a carrier since the twenties

[heady sail]

If you exchange them, for say, four carriers, not really. Especially if you also invest in radar

[chilly osprey]

It wasn't really realistic to take Malta at the start of the war. The navy's high command did not want to do it. Remember, Italy only had two operational battleships until the late summer of 1940, and the Allies had 12 capital ships in the Mediterranean against them.

The advantage for the Italian fleet basically only laid in their higher tactical speed that let them avoid engagements where the Allies had massive firepower advantage, and supporting an invasion of Malta would have pinned the two battleships where they would be easy to find.

[heady sail]

Even before tbh. Didn't the head of the navy after WWI resigned because they didn't give him the carrier they promised?

[chilly osprey]

Revel resigned over the stripping of the RM's air arm, iirc

Ah, correction, that was over the creation of the general staff with the army at the head.

There was no carrier effort that early on

Not enough money

The first serious drive at a carrier that could have turned into a built ship, barring air force opposition, IMO, would have been Bonfiglietti's 15,000-ton carrier of 1927

Which could have been built in the early 1930s in place of one of the heavy cruisers (Bolzano would make the most sense in terms of infrastructure, though for fleet planning, replacing Pola would make more sense).

[heady sail]

Yeah, the french only had the experimental Bearn, and so the Italians didn't feel like committing resources into a carrier. But since the start of the Ethiopian crisis and the realisation that the English were also an enemy, they drew up the first plans to convert the ocean liner Roma (Aquila)

[heady sail]

Yes, like too little, too late

[heady sail]

Yes, I know that Tiberio is the one behind the Gufo, me saying Marconi was to stress that the Italians could have built the radar before.

[chilly osprey]

A radar program could have started earlier, perhaps, but tbh the technology was too primitive in the 1920s for anyone to make serious progress, or at least the kind a navy would be interested in (anywhere, not just in Italy).

[heady sail]

Didn't the air force had a ridiculously low number of air dropped torpedoes at the start of the war?

[chilly osprey]

Not even just torpedoes

Torpedo bombers

0 when Italy entered the war

5 when they started using the first unit that summer

But they lost one on their first mission

So basically every torpedo attack action carried out by the air force in 1940

was by the same four aircraft and crews

Hence why they became known as the 'quattro gatti'

New groups did not start forming until December

And were deployed starting in 1941

279a Squadrigilia was formed 26 Dec 1940, 280a 8 Feb 1941, 281a on 5 Mar 1941, etc

[heady sail]

Maybe with a surprise attack. Like you declare war and you already take the island... Truth is Italy shouldn't have entered in the war.

[chilly osprey]

Yes, the smart thing would have been to stay out

But Mussolini did not want to leave the division of Europe post-war soley to the Germans, and was convinced the Allies would soon break and the war would be over. He managed to convince the necessary people in government of this (including the King), and he had his war.

[heady sail]

At the least we could have had some radars ready for the war. As the other users said countless times the English fleet managed to escape or the Italians had to retreat due the night.

[heady sail]

At most occupy Djibouti and Tunisia while the British are occupied. Like the Japanese with Indochina.

[chilly osprey]

Yes. I mean, they would have been radars of limited performance, but they could have been in service earlier. The thing I will always point out is that Tiberio was only given a budget of 20,000 lire annually for radar development, and had to split his attention between radar and teaching at the naval academy.

While the goddamn back up barrage calculators used on the heavy cruisers for 100mm fire control (against aircraft) cost something like 250,000 lire each....

[heady sail]

I heard that right before the war, the king was also convinced about entering the war. And I also heard that the British were kinda putting pressure of Italy by stopping coal convoys from Germany.

[heady sail]

Yes, but what pushed Mussolini towards Italy was the big fuss the allies did over Ethiopia. Now, of course, invading Ethiopia was an immoral waste of money, but also they pushed Italy in the arms of Germany. If the Ethiopian crisis doesn't happen either Italy sits out of the war or they join the allies.

[heady sail]

Yes, they absolutely gave precedence to the wrong things. Ethiopia was useless, and same with Spain. Those money could have used to built radars and carriers, and generally modernise the army and the air force.

[chilly osprey]

It's complicated. Ultimately Mussolini did want to strike against the French and British, and wanted Germany to exist as a counter-balance to the French in northern Europe.

But at the same time he also wanted to maintain the de facto protectorate of Austria. Hitler managed to get him to give up (and back-stab, really) Austria in exchange for support in Ethiopia. So in a timeline where Ethiopia doesn't happen, Germany either never anchlusses Austria or there's a general European war over the issue.

[heady sail]

Thanks btw regarding this.

[chilly osprey]

Oh, actually, that reminds me, I have to finish the rest of my response to your questions

Got interrupted by the current conversation

[grave ravine]

I hope I didn't miss someone already answering this, but yeah it's the one with the long 47

[heady sail]

Eh,not really, Mussolini didn't mind the British at all before the Ethiopian crisis. And I could go out a limb and say that the British trusted the Italians more than the french. The British draw up plans of a eventual war against France in the '20 and in the '30 and they envisioned Italy as a probable allies.

Simply Mussolini was Isolated after the Ethiopian crisis and Hitler was the only one not sanction us. It was brain-dead to ally with Germany, litteraly had colliding interest. Mussolini considered Hitler a babbling buffoon at first.

[frozen kestrel]

Thanks

[chilly osprey]

I think at best the OTO single mount may have been meant as a rival to the Ansaldo 1940 single mount, but maybe not, too - at the end of the day, it didn't have high enough elevation for use as a starshell gun.

Unfortunately, there's just not enough information on its background. The rate of fire was 10-12 rpm.

This compares well to the rest of the RM 120/50's, which on paper have RoF's of 6-7 rpm. But then the weird thing is that in his recent monograph for Storia Militare on the Soldati-class, Bagnasco states that well drilled gun crews could sustain, for extended periods of time, 7-8 rpm, which is higher than the rates of fire he credits those guns with nominally. Which makes me wonder if the nominal rates of fire actually describe the firing cycles of the guns, or something else entirely, like practical RoF. Similarly, the recent monograph on the Capitani Romani describes the RoF of the 135mm actually being as high as 10 rpm...

General table of the 120/50 (single-purpose) in all its various mounts (except for the Ansaldo 1926 single mounts used on export ships);

[heady sail]

It's well known that the Italians understated the rate of fire of their guns. They often put the real rate of fire instead of the theoretical one, contrary to the other navies.

[heady sail]

Really thanks for this. Btw here is written that the experimental 120/50 of the Ansaldo was installed on the carabiniere.

[chilly osprey]

Yes, the prototype single mount for what became the Ansaldo 1940 single was fitted on her when she was built (rest of the 1st series Soldati were built with the 120/15 illumination howitzer in the same spot)

It was actually removed in 1943, along with one of the torpedo banks, to fit more AA

[heady sail]

The bit about rof of the 135/45 is important, until now everything I saw stated that the rof was 7-8 rpm.

[chilly osprey]

Yeah I was very surprised when I saw it too

I suspect the commonly given '6 rpm' and occasional up to 7.5 rpm is maybe reflective of higher gun elevations past +30°, where the rate of fire suffers because of the weak recoil rammer.

[heady sail]

Ah, interesting. Though it probably wasn't put in the turrets of the "improved Soldati" (the ones akin to the turret of the 90/50), there is written that the elevation was only 42 degrees, not enough for a DP gun. Also the rate of fire isn't different from the standard one. Maybe we are talking about a different experimental 120/50 than the one Sappino is talking about?

[chilly osprey]

Ah, yes, sorry if I wasn't being clear

[heady sail]

Interesting.

[chilly osprey]

This was a single-purpose single mount, meant to give greater range for the illumination shells/star shells than the 120/15 howitzers could supply

The RM really did not like having their 'main' guns on a ship firing starshells

So they always tried too offload the task to another gun

Ex, the 120/50 twins could fire illumination rounds too - the RM just doesn't seem to have liked to do this

[heady sail]

Ah, I understand

[heady sail]

Also they were designing a DP 135/45mm gun, that could elevate to 75 degrees instead of the 45 degrees of the standard one. But armistice halted the works on them. I asked around and they told me that apparently they weren't interested in improving the rof, information is also really scarce.

[chilly osprey]

The 'normal' shells were known as 'Proietto illuminante regolare', the long range types were 'Proietto illuminate a grande gittata'

[chilly osprey]

"information is also really scarce"

It always is for us RM enthusiasts lol

The elevation for the DP mounts in interesting, I hadn't seen a specific figure for that before. I assume these were for the turrets meant for the Etna-class cruisers?

[heady sail]

Yes, for the Etna class cruisers and to substitute the double 120/50 mm of the Cavour for her second retrofit.

[heady sail]

Though on the Cavour didn't actually modify the turrets, so I don't know how they intended to make them elevato to 75 degrees. Maybe they planned to work on them later.

[chilly osprey]

Or perhaps replace the turrets wholly afterwards with the new models?

[heady sail]

It's really sad, that's true, same about tanks and airplanes.

[heady sail]

There is a photos of one 135/45 inside the old turret

[chilly osprey]

Oh, I've seen that photo

I'm thinking more that maybe the old turrets with 135mm installed could have been a stopgap solution

To be replaced with the dedicated DP turrets at a later date.

Probably not, but, just a hypothesis

Bc, tbh, from the photos I've seen it doesn't seem the modified turrets on Cavour actually have elevation beyond +45°

[heady sail]

Yeah, let's say that that retrofit wasn't really up in the queue of the things the RM actually wanted. It was more of a political things for the regime to show that Italy didn't lose any BB during the war.

[chilly osprey]

Mmm

It was really not a good idea, from a practical perspective

[heady sail]

Yeah, that's what they told me. The retrofitted Cavour is actually in war thunder, and I asked the historical consultant about why she doesn't have the DP 135 and he told me that they couldn't physically elevate to 75 degrees in the old turrets.

[heady sail]

Same as retrofitting the Duilios... A waste of money, and they could have reused the steel to build something else more important.

[chilly osprey]

Oh, I have a whole rant about the Duilio-class

Because between them and the submarine program at the time

You have one of the biggest reasons the Littorio-class were not operational in time for the start of the war, at least in the Mediterranean.

[desert agate]

you'll probably enjoy this then
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ppEThDwNM&ab_channel=Super8Rescue

[ornate wind]

Does anyone know what this new Chinese ship (light cruiser) that was just announced is? The guns don’t look like Japanese 140mm 3rd years and afaik, Nationalist China only ever planned to procure heavy cruisers for their surface fleet

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYRhdcsrmv4

[grave ravine]

It might be the Number 64 class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_64-class_cruiser

[ornate wind]

Weren’t the malcafone designs armed with twin mounts?

I remember seeing the design while doing my digging

[grave ravine]

The new CL has twins

[ornate wind]

I don’t see the mounts, all I see are what appears to be 76mms

Nvm, just saw the full image

Yeah, I think that checks out then

[heady sail]

http://www.pietrocristini.com/stormi97_mar_incr_skoda_x_cina.htm

The article is in Italian, but it should talk about these ships

The one of the wiki article is the second drawing, I think.

[grave ravine]

the wiki article briefly discusses the first one as well

i figure its going to be the 1800t version cuz thats what actually started construction

[ornate wind]

I saw this line drawing by Tzoli earlier for the ship in question

[shy grail]

Well, you aren’t getting even 3 carriers for 1 battleship simply due to cost and turbine availability, you might be able to get 2 depending on how big said carrier is (15000 tonne types), or you replace the Capitani Romanis, although it too late to do anything. Either that or you sack your cruisers (in this case, Pola budgetary wise or Bolzano). Granted is better that replacing an entire Littorio, and is probably useful up until Taranto when the British fleet comes (idk how to speculate on Italian Torpedo bomber development)

To defend Taranto you need at least air search radar placed in a spot without ground clutter, and I’m not sure the Italian will figure that out (and whether a warning of like 10 km matters, because again, ground clutter, as the British are coming over land on the approach to Taranto harbour itself rather than by sea), and you would need more cooperation with the Regia Aeronautica that those planes are indeed not theirs, which is unlikely. If you want a shot at shooting down those Swordfish, you need anti-air gunnery radar, which suffice to say you aren’t making one because that has barely entered service in 1940. To detect Illustrious you need and aircraft with radar air to sea search on board, and that barely enters service with the British in 1940, so it is extremely unlikely you would get it

[shy grail]

Radar is important for hiding themselves, not for finding the Italian fleet, often the first time that they find out the Italian fleet is sailing is when a plane from the Carrier X spots them. Enigma won’t tell them the route or rather exactly where the Italian are and hence how to avoid them, only certainty whether the Italians are sailing or not, and again is all about Matapan. (Plus Force K much later). Not sure why you are fixated on that battle tbh, there are like 10 convoys/operations where the Italians try to catch the British and then just fail because of lack of reconnaissance is able to report their whereabouts. Even convoys which didn’t have a carrier to swat shadowers out of the air also got through at an unreasonable rate

[shy grail]

Sure if the Italians had radar it could have helped during Battle of the Duisberg Convoy for instance, but the British would still have far better coordination and training than the Italians would have, and you would need some sort of CIC because the only radar equipped ships are likely going to be the heavy cruisers (CIC didn’t exist until 1943 on British and US ships) MTBs v cruisers where not guranteed to end well, the British fought off numerous attacks and only lost Manchester, York is a different case as she was attacked at port

Getting attacked by light cruisers is vastly different than getting attacked by MTBs understandably

[chilly osprey]

Tbh, EW radar at Taranto doesn't really change much

It's not like it was a suprise attack

Defenses were insufficent, but the Italians knew the British had a carrier in the area, and there was a general air raid alert ongoing from 1955 that evening.

The real core of the issue at Taranto was that the defenses were degraded because of a mix of weather (recent storms blew away too many barrage balloons for what was left to be effective), an insufficent amount of torpedo nets, which were additionally not optimally organized in order to allow for a rapid departure for an operation planned the next morning, and insufficent illumination/AA direction.

The general estimate is that had the barrage balloon barriers been at full strength, 3 of the 5 hits (those to the rebuilds, and the first hit to Littorio) would have been impossible to achieve.

[heady sail]

I actually meant both the Littorio and the Vittorio Veneto. If you sack them both you could have four carriers. But probably if you smelt the small battleship, which weren't really useful, you can also get four carriers and you also have the Littorios.

As Phoenix wrote, if the Italians built their carriers at the right time to train with them, around 1930, they would probably have built something in the range of 15,000 tons, so nothing too big.

Namely they would have built the Bonfiglietti carrier, which was supposed to weight 16,000 tons and had a speed of 29 knots, and had an air wing of 42 aircraft.

Regarding Taranto a radar surely would have helped in some manner. By 1943 Italy had a comprehensive radar system in all of the peninsula, the bad thing was that it was too late. What I'm saying is that Italy should have built a radar before the war, like the British and the Germans, and instead for them had little or no priority, so they entered the war without one.

If they had spot the British task force at the sea maybe they could have sent some fighters, but again, it's night, it would have been difficult, they would be really lucky to intercept the British planes before they reach Taranto, I'm not sure you want to have your planes around when you are firing your AA.

To shot a swordfish definitely you don't need radar guided AA, as you stated is really a late war things, you can use your normal AA.

Moreover as I already said, like Matapan, Taranto wasn't really important, the damages the Italians sustained weren't so bad and it wasn't even a "moral victory" as the English historiography likes to claim, the morale of the Italian sailors was pretty high for most part of the war.

[shy grail]

Your carriers are dead if the British get a torpedo hit on them, hence why I mentioned Taranto

[chilly osprey]

A torpedo hit isn't going to instantly doom a carrier anymore than it's going to doom a cruiser or battleship?

I mean, obviously it's still going to cause considerable damage that has to be repaired, but not is it the end of the world.

[shy grail]

Doesn’t a battleship have much better TDS than a cruiser?

[chilly osprey]

Cruisers tend to have no TDS at all

[shy grail]

Like if a cruiser gets hit its gone basically

[chilly osprey]

They survive torpedo hits purely on subdivision and damage control.

[shy grail]

Battleship gets hit you can still survive unless you get unlucky

[heady sail]

The British completely cracked the German cihpher, and so the Germans, which were litteraly communicating everything, from the speeds of the fleets, to the composition, to the route, were the main reason the English always knew everything.

The Italian cipher wasn't completely cracked, or not cracked at all, and moreover, somehow knew that the English had something to anticipate their moves, they thought about spies, when it was Enigma, and so they were pretty ambiguous in their communications.

[chilly osprey]

There are many, many cases of cruisers surviving torpedo hits

Even one as small as a Capitani Romani

[shy grail]

Separate question, what was the Italian carrier cap for LNT?

[chilly osprey]

60,000 tons total

Same as France

[shy grail]

Ah ok, so about 3 carriers?

[chilly osprey]

No carrier could be more than 27,000 tons or have a gun larger than 8"

Yeah, the general idea was to split it three or four ways, as far as the RM was concerned

Just for reasons of costs and numbers, they tended to gravitate towards 15,000 tons, though ~22,000 ton types were preferred

[heady sail]

Again, if they developed their radar before the war they would have the same training as the English. Moreover radar also was on everything bigger than a torpedo boat. Starting from destroyers the Italians wanted a radar on every ship.

[shy grail]

Err no? Night training is entirely separate from radar, and simply put the Italian electronics industry cannot supply that many radar sets by late 1941

Only the British could do it because’s theirs were extremely big, and the Germans could do it because they had a relatively large one and had not a lot of ships

Even the US barely had any at this time

[chilly osprey]

Non-exhaustive overview of various carrier projects from 1925 to 1940;

The American, Dutch, British, and German electronics industries were the most advanced in the world in the late 1930s

This gave them a leg up on radar development

In fact, the Italian radar program snagged a lot of parts from the US

[shy grail]

Catamaran CV what lmao

[chilly osprey]

That was a weird one

stuck two DD hulls together

Best ignored

It was an independent one

Not an official project

[heady sail]

There were torpedo net at Taranto, moreover the seabed is shallow and muddy, a ship was pretty protected, surely more protected than in open sea.

Besides yes, torpedoes were dangerous, but it's not like Italian ships were particularly susceptible to torpedoes, both the Littorio and Vittorio Veneto got hit multiple times by torpedoes and survived...

[chilly osprey]

Torpedoes are a hazard to everyone

You don't not build a ship because it may be torpedoed

And even destroyers can survive torpedo hits

It's why you build ships with good subdivision

And carriers can be built with TDS

[heady sail]

Not really, it needs multiple torpedo it usually. Moreover the Bonfiglietti carrier had the Pugliese torpedo defense system, so pretty good.

[shy grail]

Yeah I saw the 1936 ones at 22000 tons, not the 15000 ones though, or am I mistaken?

[chilly osprey]

Both Bonfiglietti and Pugliese's 15,000-ton carrier designs had TDS

One of the advantages of the Pugliese TDS system that they used - it was lightweight for its level of protection. Volume-intensive, but relatively lightweight.

[heady sail]

I mean like when the German and the English started their research in the radar. Maybe even before given that Marconi, the one who theorised radar was Italian and showed them some prototype of the radar in the '20.

[shy grail]

Ah ok

[shy grail]

Even with radar you need a separate night training, otherwise you end up like the US in Guadalcanal

[chilly osprey]

Hmmm

Oh boy, so, that is actually a whole can of worms by itself

Because it's not like the RM didn't train for night combat

They weren't as good at it as the British, Germans, or Japanese

But it's not like they ignored it, either, despite what popular telling would have you believe

[shy grail]

Yeah, that was exaggerating a bit, but it’s a far cry from the other navies (which you mentioned) which had substantial night training

[chilly osprey]

Unfortunately there is only one good treatment of Italian night combat preparations before the war that's been published in English to date

[shy grail]

They didn’t train against convoy attack specifically IIRC, which is what matters

[chilly osprey]

In Vincent O'Hara & Trent Hone's Fighting In the Dark: Naval Combat at Night, 1904-1944

Yeah

Well, no one did

Learning to effectively defend against sudden night attack is something that had to be learned on the spot during wartime. The Americans did it most successfully with their development of the CIC, but that was largely implemented in 1943, because they had the resources and breathing room to do so. As well as the radar systems to make it viable to fight based on inputs from sensor information.

[grave ravine]

By late 1941 most battleships and cruisers would have recieved a search radar in the USN

[shy grail]

The Italian couldn’t do the same to the British due to the size of fleets involved

[chilly osprey]

The Italians were placed in an extremely unfortunate place where they had to defend night convoys from an enemy that better prepared for night combat - especially night combat with guns - and small unit tactics at night - than basically every other navy on the planet, and had a technological edge when it came to electronic systems.

No one else really had to deal with that kind of a situation

The British only had a handful of cases where convoys came under attack by German ships at night

And the German attacks were never executed as competently as the British ones

[heady sail]

Italy didn't like to fight at night during the war because they figured that the English had an advantage thanks to the radar and Enigma.

[shy grail]

Referring to the destroyer equipped radar sets

[chilly osprey]

Well, sort of. It depends on with what units.

Italian doctine always did not want to fight at night with battleships and heavy cruisers because the risk to them was too great and their guns did not have as much of an advantage at night vs in daylight. Even when they started preparing to use said guns at night, they knew the British had an edge at night with radar.

With light ships

Different story

[grave ravine]

I mean I don't think most British destroyers would have had radar in 1941 either

[drifting delta]

From what I read on Sappino's blog, there's proof of night training and that the RM recognized its importance, but it was not enforced a lot for large units (? Might have spewed some bull).

[chilly osprey]

Destroyers and torpedo boats were offensive ships for night use

[drifting delta]

Granted in my uneducated opinion, while Italy should have invested in night training, I sort of see why they avoided night engagements as much as possible.

[chilly osprey]

In fact, most night battles between the British and Italians early in the war were started by the Italians, engaging the British

[heady sail]

(these are two iterations of the Bonfiglietti carrier, just for reference)

[drifting delta]

Because if both sides know the last thing about night fighting, it's gonna be bloody, and Britian could replace losses much better than Italy even just due to sheer size alone.

[grave ravine]

Ive got that book on order right now, is it good?

[chilly osprey]

It's excellent

[grave ravine]

cool

[drifting delta]

Absolutely. It's very interesting and fun, especially because, again, it's almost entirely unexplored land on the Italian side. cough but when you let what ifs take over you get Tai Yuan cough

[heady sail]

As I already mentioned is an affront to have the Chinese get their third missile destroyer while the Italian don't get a missile cruiser retrofit for the Garibaldi...

[chilly osprey]

I wouldn't quite say it wasn't enforced for large units, so much as it wasn't as high of a priority.

Before WWII, all guns of 152mm and below had flashless powder and were expected to be used at night. Light cruisers and smaller were expected to be able to fight at night, and battleships secondary batteries for repelling the enemy at night.

Heavy cruisers, with their 203mm guns, were seen as not ideal (both because it nullified the ballistic advantages of their guns, and the rate of fire was not so great), but they were working on flashless powder. In fact, the first load of 203mm flashless charges had been tested on Fiume shortly before Operation Gaudo and her loss at Cape Matapan.

Even without flashless charges, though, 203mm ships still did night gunnery drills before the war, and at the night of Cape Matapan turrets were manned and ready for action, with two turrets on each ship on full alert. They were in fact destroyed while training, when the first British salvos hit.

Battleship night gunnery practice only really started in earnest after Cape Matapan, and they never had flashless charges. That said, there is at least one photo of a Cavour firing her main guns at night befor ethe war, which is interesting as it means there were at some night firing exercises for those ships.

The biggest issue with practice during the war, if anything, was with the destroyers

Because they were so damn busy

Most of them did not achieve the number of night gunnery exercises they were supposed to

And iirc, a full third of them were unable to spare the time for any

Such was their demand from combat operations and convoy escort work

The RM also had an issue with its smaller ships of not placing much emphasis on the gun, which was the complete opposite of the British

[shy grail]

Oh yeah, but missile Garibaldi is UR+++ lmao

[heady sail]

But with China it's different, they have the CCP breathing on their neck. I think it's why they added a Chinese faction in the first place, without offence, China has no place in a game about WWII ships

[chilly osprey]

Torpedoes were the primary weapon of a destroyer or torpedo boat, and guns should only be used after you are certain the enemy had spotted you

Which meant that a lot of Italian destroyers ate the first salvos from the British in night actions without seeking to fire back, but while trying to close for torpedo attacks.

[heady sail]

Eh, it could be a UR without a problem, especially considering ddg are already in game and aren't particularly broken or unbalanced.

[grave ravine]

USS Gyatt as UR DDG

get smacked by Terrier

[heady sail]

Look at what ship the new light cruiser is based on, a small protected cruiser before the first world war, basically a 1500 ton toy compared to WWII ships.

[shy grail]

Aren’t the missiles of Garibaldi like totally OP compared to the ones on the destroyers? Polaris missile launcher lmao

[grave ravine]

Polaris Garibaldi really would be a meme

[grave ravine]

Its an SSBN missile

[shy grail]

The entire screen goes kaboom

[grave ravine]

yeah lol

[heady sail]

Polaris are ballistic missiles, she also has terriers

[grave ravine]

But Terrier is also OP compared to Silkworm IRL

[drifting delta]

I see, thank you so much. I knew about DDs and Torpedo boats but not CLs.

[drifting delta]

This is extremely interesting.

[shrewd pecan]

Polaris's were both never mounted on her as Italy cancelled its nuclear program combined with you know being useless against sea based targets that you know move a lot

[shy grail]

Yeah

[heady sail]

Moreover the Polaris weren't mounted because the US didn't give them because exactly in that moment was in a distention phase with the USSR.

[drifting delta]

If we want to dive into the rabbit hole, Sardegna should have been a major faction😛 .

But I can see why CN devs would like a CN faction.

[grave ravine]

Sardegna should have been a major faction and not IB

[drifting delta]

Now, getting DDGs and BCs and so on, err....

[heady sail]

Italy tho developed another ballistic missile herself. Alpha missile https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_(rocket)

[shy grail]

Agreed

[shy grail]

Still a nuclear ballistic missile, which is totally OP

[drifting delta]

I mean, it's not even much of a rabbit hole in all honesty, it's pretty self evident🤣 .

[heady sail]

First it would be a UR, so it would be sensibly more powerful than the Chinese DDGs, second the Devs could always twerk them to not make them broken.

[chilly osprey]

These are from some notes I took from some Italian articles on night combat preparations, that go over tactical concepts in force at the time, which you may find interesting.

This was largely the framework the Italians were working within at the time.

[shy grail]

But then you would have to make them an AA cruiser because Terrier has AA capability, and is by far the best of any ship

[heady sail]

Of course, that goes without saying. While the Germans not...

[drifting delta]

It's extremely interesting, thank you.

[shy grail]

Also has 8 76/62 as well (albeit older variant but still powerful)

[heady sail]

It never equipped them though, so it would only have terriers

[drifting delta]

Look, I am even willing to keep IB a major on sardegna's side, but have them be an actual sub centric faction where submarines are the main protagonists, and not the wunderwaffen galore they are now lol.

[grave ravine]

which is still OP

[drifting delta]

(Needless to say, never happening).

Are you really skimping on those hugo boss aesthetic bucks? Lol.

[heady sail]

It's pretty ridiculous they have more UR than the British and the Americans. It's also ridiculous that they always get a UR research ship every other year. This year was totally unwarranted, Moreover they didn't need another heavy cruiser, and Hindenburg should have been replaced by the Napoli...

[shy grail]

Could a Polaris launcher launch a Jupiter missile?

[heady sail]

Yeah, no problem, you give them good AA, if the retrofit Garibaldi were to be introduced it would also get to equip DD guns, so imo it should be a sort of super San Diego.

[shy grail]

Maybe not though, Jupiter missile is much heavier

[heady sail]

It's not like the Devs care about power creep anyway. See Laffey II.

[heady sail]

I don't think, but I'm not an expert.

[chilly osprey]

Jupiter is substantially larger than Polaris

[heady sail]

Yeah, exactly, I don't want to start calling names, but let's say that both the Chinese and the Japanese have a particular attraction towards 1933-1945 Germany...

[grave ravine]

It's not just them, look at the results in th EN popularity polls

[shy grail]

If anything EN is more Wehraboo than JP and CN

[grave ravine]

Yeah, there is still a massive problem in the lay English language military history community

[drifting delta]

Yep, but let's be honest, it's very widespread kinda everywhere, and manjuu is not the first company to capitalize on it nor will they be the last.
The problem is in fact that they are so very cumbersome.

It kinda suffocates any alternative, see hindenburg as you said.

I like to say it's Italy's situation, but in reverse lol.

"Years over years of piling up".

Ain't getting rid of that mythos any time soon.

[drifting delta]

Yeah, in general any layman has a huge chance of being attracted to that side first simply because of the huge pop culture buildup.

It's just how it is.

Could very well have been a very well fed minor, or as I said make IB a major along Sardegna, making, you know, the most obvious depiction of the Axis ever, but I digress.

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1749185252596093179

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1954, USS Nautilus (SSN-571) was christened and launched at Groton, CT. Fueled by a golf ball-sized lump of uranium, the world's first nuclear-powered submarine could stay submerged longer while traveling further, faster and deeper than any sub before her.
#SubSunday

Twitter · Jan 21, 2024, 9:40 PM

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1749124804312023363

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD 1991, an F-14 from VF-103 became the only U.S. Navy Tomcat to be lost to hostile fire when it was shot down by an Iraqi missile. The pilot was recovered in the first combat search and rescue mission behind enemy lines since Vietnam, but the RIO was held as a POW for 6 weeks.

Twitter · Jan 21, 2024, 5:40 PM

[desert agate]

Iirc 10th destroyer division which was mostly the RANs older V/W class ships had air search sets

[shy grail]

J/K/N all had Type 285 and Type 286 radar by the end of 1941 IIRC
So did the L, N, P, and O classes (might be fitted with Type 291 although there are limited sets), but idk about the older destroyers. As a side note, 32 corvettes are equiped with Type 271 by September 1941, although I am not sure how many of said corvettes served in the Mediterranean routes

[shy grail]

Should be Type 286, mainly because the British spammed that post Dunkirk. Also had limited surface search IIRC

[desert agate]

I believe the RANs destroyers were fitted with radar before their deployment to the Med

I'll have to check my book on them

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1749124804312023363

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD 1991, an F-14 from VF-103 became the only U.S. Navy Tomcat to be lost to hostile fire when it was shot down by an Iraqi missile. The pilot was recovered in the first combat search and rescue mission behind enemy lines since Vietnam, but the RIO was held as a POW for 6 weeks.

Twitter · Jan 21, 2024, 5:40 PM

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1749185252596093179

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1954, USS Nautilus (SSN-571) was christened and launched at Groton, CT. Fueled by a golf ball-sized lump of uranium, the world's first nuclear-powered submarine could stay submerged longer while traveling further, faster and deeper than any sub before her.
#SubSunday

Twitter · Jan 21, 2024, 9:40 PM

[hallow roost]

any ideas about what the three new chinese DDs in the game are based on?

[autumn sorrel]

3 new DD, they are bought right before 1911 Revolution and transfer to the Nationalist Navy and sunk as block ship during 2nd Sino-Japanese war

[hallow roost]

wonder what are their names

[blazing crow]

Lung Wu, Hu Pen, and Fei Yuen

though only the last one has mention in wikipedia

[narrow rover]

China was actually allied to the Germans for a while
And German trained troops were used thrown against Japan at one point

[heady sail]

Of course, "history buffs", basically people that knows history through memes, and only know "France surrender", "Italy switching sides" and "Germany the strongest" are the bane of every historical game and at large of everything non-niche related to history.

[heady sail]

Yeah, sure, wehraboo are everywhere, but I said CN and JP because the Devs couldn't care less about what EN thinks.

[heady sail]

Yeah, for sure, Italy doesn't sell the same as Germany, and if they tried to make Italy historically better (regarding ships) than Germany in game, you would have hordes of wehraboo foaming at the mouths.

[heady sail]

Yeah, exactly, it's 80 years of English and German propaganda piling up.

The worst part is also many historians end up picking lies.

[heady sail]

Yes, exactly. Besides is entirely another problem completely internal to Azur Lane, the exclusivity of the status of "major", why can't even the minor have tech bonus and a research lab? Is not like would cost any money to manju.

I don't understand why they are entitled to a research ship every year and 2 URs every other year, it's not like they don't get plenty of gacha ships every year.

This year especially, they just received Bis Zwei, which is a pretty broken ship, completely fantasy and only due to the lore, and also Hindenburg, a heavy cruiser that adds nothing to the table bar big boobs and was completely uncalled for. They should have added Napoli.

Until Guam announcement, I was kinda huffing copium thinking that maybe no research UR ship for Italy meant an Italian UR ship in December.

[heady sail]

Let's say that more than a gratitude thing is a programmatic affinity thing...

[narrow rover]

Eehhh, if Japan had left them alone I say they would have joined the Axis

[heady sail]

No, I meant programmatic affinity today.

It's not like Chiang Kai-shek had any policy affinity with them or anything, it was your classical autocratic kleptomaniac

[narrow rover]

Yea China at the time basically accepted anyone that offered them help

Imagine being helped by both the Soviets and the US, one hell of an achievement lmao

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gb1iN3DQFE

[rapid junco]

Corporal Armando Farias Tinoco (1st Fgt Sqd) showing Ms. Irene Davis his homeland. Taken at Patrick Henry Field, Virginia

[subtle prawn]

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2024/january/destroyers-us-navy-two-classes-destroyers-are-really-five

[runic ermine]

One that topic what about the 3 Chinese ironclad BBs?

[autumn sorrel]

You mean the German built one?

[runic ermine]

Dingyuan, Zhenyuan and Pingyuan

[runic ermine]

Jiyuan was supposed to be a BB but she was shrunk down to a cruiser
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_cruiser_Jiyuan

[unkempt sedge]

https://youtu.be/5ZjZ5PNUC2Q?si=GFcqk8IIM1fBBRsn

[ivory fable]

Someone explain why this massive feet had

0 sonar

When it has like 15 destroyers

And no subs on escort

So bad

Also why did they specifically targeted heavy cruisers

[grave ravine]

They have quite good passive listening hydrophones, but Japan had a limited ability to produce active ranging sonar sets so they were mostly only fitted to dedicated ASW escorts

[ivory fable]

We're hellcats broken?

Like how did just 2 of em took out 15

Planes bruh

[mental tapir]

Partly also Japanese skill issue

(Most of the skilled pilots were attrited over Guadalcanal and the aviation training programme sacrificed quality just to push out more pilots)

[chilly flower]

It was a mix of the Hellcat's performance (and other good qualities), USN aviator experience and skill, and also a decline in Japanese aviator experience over the course of the war as many of the veterans died off prior and training programs to replace them were rather strict and flawed. Furthermore, some aircraft like the A6M was intended to be replaced by an aircraft (the A7M Reppu/"Sam") that had performance that could contend with new Allied types, but long development delays and troubles meant this successor never saw service and many IJN Air Service aviators had to continue fighting on the backfoot against newer Allied fighters with greater performance (really only with the exception of the lucky few by very late war who got types like the N1K-J Shiden-Kai/"George" or the J2M Raiden/"Jack") . On top of this, various other factors such as a slow incentive to integrate aircraft protection in the Navy (contrasted by the IJA's Air Service, which was one of the first adopters of aircraft protection), and even then once added ineffective self-sealing tanks (as they were only tested and only proofed against rifle-caliber weapons like 7.7mms, rather than the many 12.7mm/.50 cal MGs that armed US fighters) among other factors meant that attrition remained high for much of the war.

Numerical superiority is commonly attributed as another USN advantage, but in practice this isn't really true, as there were many engagements (particularly in 1944) where a flight of F6Fs went up against a significantly larger Japanese formation and consistently came out on top.

On top of this, for that particular engagement depicted, that is the action where top Navy ace and Commander of Air Group 15 (onboard USS Essex) David McCampbell shot down 9 aircraft in one engagement, and his wingman Roy Rushing also scored 6.

(passage from Naval Fighters #92, Grumman F6F Hellcat)

[mental tapir]

From Jaba:

What the IJNAF lacked was skilled, well-trained pilots. The IJNAF (and the FAA, to a lesser extent) failed to create an adequate pipeline for producing sufficient numbers of sufficiently trained pilots per year prewar, and when war arrived they greatly expanded graduation rates by obliterating pilot quality (Saburo Sakai’s memoirs note that the wartime graduates were worse than the prewar flunkies in his class). The IJNAF’s skilled core was crippled in the 1942 air battles, primarily over Guadalcanal (more IJNAF aviators were killed at Santa Cruz, a Japanese victory, than at Midway, a Japanese defeat), and the decision to let the carrier squadrons continue to bleed out fighting land-based air throughout 1943 prevented any hope of them ever recovering in quality. By 1944 they’d recovered pilot and airframe numbers in time for the Philippine Sea, but the veterans were so sparse and the rookies so badly trained the veterans were effectively used to shepherd the rookies to the American fleet to be slaughtered. And that was the end, at least until the kamikazes.

[chilly flower]

McCampbell would also be the highest scoring US ace to survive the war at 34 kills all scored in 6 months between June and November of 1944, not getting any more on account of his squadron getting swapped out back to the States by the end of the year to train new aviators (a common Allied practice and luxury), effectively ending his tour

[grave ravine]

Worth mentioning too that Sakai isn't carrier trained either

[mental tapir]

From the Wiki:

Sakai graduated as a carrier pilot although he was never assigned to aircraft-carrier duty.

[severe vessel]

What would happen if the Montana class battleship in was built in ww2 and was sent to the pacific in 1943 ?

[strong plank]

it'd basically do the same job the Iowas did

considering Iowa entered service Feb '43

just AA and bombardment duty basically

[severe vessel]

Cool

[eternal veldt]

I doubt the Montanas would be anywhere near ready until at least 1947

Especially with Kentucky and Illinois still very barebones by 1945

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1749861030463693098

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD 1968, USS Pueblo was captured by North Korea. Forced to pose for propaganda photos, the crew displayed their middle fingers which they told their captors was a "Hawaiian good luck sign." Time magazine revealed the gesture's true meaning, resulting in the crew being beaten.

Twitter · Jan 23, 2024, 6:25 PM

[willow jungle]

USS Ohio (BB-12), a Maine-class pre-dreadnought battleship, was the third ship of her class and the third ship of the United States Navy to be named for the 17th state. She was laid down at the Union Iron Works shipyard in San Francisco in April 1899, was launched in May 1901, and was commissioned into the fleet in October 1904. She was armed with a main battery of four 12-inch (305 mm) guns and could steam at a top speed of 18 knots (33 km/h; 21 mph).

USS Prinz Eugen (IX-300), 1946.

[severe vessel]

Imagine if she was in the Korean War

[willow jungle]

She will witness how scary Whiskey when angry

[severe vessel]

Lol

[willow jungle]

I mean Wisconsin (BB-64) obliterated a hill after receiving a 152mm shell.

[severe vessel]

Yeah, plus whipping out any North Korean Forces on that hill

[frozen kestrel]

The local topographer had a real bad day that day

[runic ermine]

Temper temper

[strong plank]

The U.S. was never going to actually use Eugen

Why would they

and it’s unlikely she’d be returned to Germany, as the allies didn’t want to give postwar Germany anything that could be seen as a symbol of the reich

So even if her engine hadn’t shat the bed like it did, she was likely always going to be either scrapped or sunk as a target

[severe vessel]

Yeah, good point

[severe vessel]

Maybe to see what she could do if she was upgraded to a missle cruiser but I don't think those existed in the 50s

[strong plank]

Why would they do that when they had over a dozen Baltimores

And twenty something clevelands

[severe vessel]

Eh, idk

[heady sail]

Italy retrofitted the Garibaldi in a missile cruiser in the late fifties.

But no way they would have allowed Germany to do the same, much less with Prinz Eugen.

And the Us wouldn't have done that for themselves because they didn't need a damaged foreign ship.

[ivory ridge]

I still think germany getting american built destroyers in the post war and naming them... like that is just hilariously funny

like

germany pls

[strong mountain]

And we never did it again
I have an entire paper about German naming conventions somewhere.

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1750016522657956328

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1795, the Dutch fleet was captured by French cavalry when the ships became trapped in ice near Den Helder. French historians portrayed the event as a bold charge that overwhelmed the fleet, but the Dutch claim the fleet negotiated a peaceful surrender without a fight.

Twitter · Jan 24, 2024, 4:43 AM

[shrewd pecan]

They did exist in the 50s, doesn’t really change the fact the US doesn’t need Eugen when they have 50+ cruisers to choose from for conversion that aren’t dependent on parts from a country that no longer existed

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston-class_cruiser

In terms of theoretical west German service I don’t really see the point in trying to prolong Eugens service life considering the industries that built or maintained her were destroyed and it would be far cheaper and a better starter point to either start from scratch or buy surplus American destroyers

[unkempt sedge]

https://youtu.be/1hVL3SW889A?si=xkoFznC_uJ6mlCel

[willow jungle]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leyte_Gulf

Fates of Fūso-class sisters, Musashi, and more well-known warships on both sides.

[frozen kestrel]

Also to say fuck you to the Soviets

Because the Soviets wanted her after the US was done with her

[willow jungle]

Bikini Atoll, dark shape on the right is USS Arkansas (BB-33). She got tossed up when the nuke went off.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4u2V_tALYU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R2eUAkgWRg

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1750193351825989746

[distant charm]

Fun Fact: Manny people say Tirpitz never fired her guns, when in actuality, she actually did. It happened in the year 1943 in an operation to destroy an allied weather station in Spitzbergen. The Operation was called "Unternehmen Sizilien". Scharnhorst and 9 Destroyers were also involved in the attack...

Source:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unternehmen_Sizilien

[pine hull]

The dark shape isn’t USS Arkansas, that’s been debunked. Arkansas did get lifted up some, but not nearly enough to be vertical like that. The dark shape is actually just caused by the hull of Arkansas blocking water from spouting into the air.

[willow jungle]

Huh. Why I haven't informed about this. Hmm, need more history research.

[pine hull]

Here’s a report from the national park service if you want to read into the tests more

https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/swcrc/37/chap4.htm

[willow jungle]

Thanks!

[distant charm]

The Walter Antrieb was supposed to be original be put in the typ IXX submarines but they where later replaced with the big batteries. It would have propelled the submarine much faster underwater then with the batteries. But since the Walter Antrieb was very complex and Germany needed the typ IXX asap they opted to use batteries instead.

If y'all are intrested here you can find out more about the Walter Anrteib:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter-Antrieb

[distant charm]

Loading screen tip:
On of the most successful Submarines during ww2 was actually the U-48. Manny people claim that U-47 was the actually the best Submarine during ww2. Others claim that it was U-99 because of a man named Otto Kretschmer (we will get back to him later in a different post), but People mistake that as the most successful sub because it had the most successful commander. But when we look at wich Submarine (from the German Navy in the time frame, that is WW2) and use the ammount of Tonnage sunk during that time frame from each Submarine. It quickly becomes clear, that U-48 wins in that round and therefore can be seen as the most Successful submarine in ww2. The only reason U-48 doesn't has the most Successful commander title is because the sub had many changes of command, meaning in her service time she had many different captains. While U-99 only had Otto Kretschmer as far as my sources can tell. U-48 served during the entire span of ww2 and even survived it, only to be intentionally sunk by its own crew because of an order given on the 3rd of May 1945 known as the "Regenbogen befehl" or in English the "Rainbow order". This was to prevent the allies from capturing the submarine.

In the end, U-48 managed to sink 52 ships gathering a total sunk tonnage of 307935 BRT
For anyone interested in the U-48 here is a link to this specific sub:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_48_(Kriegsmarine)

[distant charm]

... damn in AL language one could say, she had a lot of marriage's and break ups...

[sudden arrow]

https://youtu.be/20ZpECdpMa0?si=0xLLenuZ3o4zVKdg

no reason not to share

[frozen kestrel]

I've got the combat report thing too

[unkempt sedge]

https://youtu.be/f0zEsYa81Zw?si=8KKUHEIZ3ThcWNrs

https://youtu.be/ByAu_1x3Sz8?si=DWtt9VoZYD8vVPNc

[fresh nest]

I broke my history teacher today

We started our WW1 unit today

I know too much

And the history of everything podcast, and me just being a nerd

[spring briar]

I kind of doubt that

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTp5QAHfcPc

[willow jungle]

I see that you love Sabaton as well. Noice.

[willow jungle]

Musashi's and a destroyer under attack in the Sibuyan Sea, Philippines. The Americans lost 3 Avengers and 3 Helldivers on the attack. (Left) Musashi sinking bow first after the attack. Which then Musashi capsized at 19:36 and sank. (Right)

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzTtcoumuWk

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1750369950122889243

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

In June of 1944, USS Texas (BB-35) was used as a temporary camp to hold German, Italian, and French prisoners captured during D-Day. Several of the POWs suffered from seasickness while aboard the battleship. All the prisoners were transferred to an LST that took them to England…

Twitter · Jan 25, 2024, 4:08 AM

[remote monolith]

new Caenagnathid dinosaur described https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0294901

the holotype was discovered in 2014 but was initially thought to be a juvenile specimen of another dinosaur

the paper found out its actually an entirely different genus

name is Eonephron infernalis, scale relative to an elf

[shy grail]

Is Frieren 1.8 m?

[wicked fern]

I’m a bit late, but on January 24th, 1909, White Star Line’s RMS Republic was involved in a fatal collision with the SS Florida, resulting in her loss. Out of over 2,000 passengers aboard Republic, only 2 died, along with 3 on Florida.

[last lance]

Battle of Tannenberg, when?

Or better when were Polish Legions formed in Austro-Hungary?

[shy grail]

Or better, Raid of Scarborough when? Battle of the Gulf of Riga when?

[runic ermine]

I know that feeling. They said I knew more about ww1 and ww2 than the teacher

[unkempt sedge]

Loved listening to this man's story! What a career!

As a Yank you will be missed sir!

https://youtu.be/32_BliefkGw?si=mFke-GKNcVSymqrr

[sacred meadow]

I was rewatching Fury and I realize the movie is a lot more realistic if you just imagine Fury as a short 75mm Sherman Jumbo lol

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, the Tiger scene one has been over analyzed to dead

We all agree that Fury would have been the 1st to be taken out and even it it doesn't, it still have decent chance to pen the Tiger at that distance, not to mention Tiger's crew look green while Fury's gunner is a battle hardened veteran

[manic latch]

@tough quail https://warthunder.com/en/news/8707-development-call-of-the-dragon-object-292-en

She is here

The T-80BV prototype with the 152mm main gun

One of the last adventures of Soviets looking into 152mm MBTS before collapse

[ivory ridge]

[shrewd pecan]

the one tap machine with no armor

🤞CATTB soon

[tough quail]

we're finally hitting the fucking weird 80s-90s prototype stage

[manic latch]

Yeah weak to guns above 105mm and has like 10 second reload

It's like tiger 10.5 I guess

[tough quail]

the turret looks so funny with the oversized gun it'll throw off everyone's aim

[manic latch]

• large back to keep counterweight and ammo

[tough quail]

kinda looks like an old Sherman turret now that I think about it

Wait

It's him

[sacred meadow]

“CUT A HOLE IN THE BACK AND HAVE IT STICK OUT THE BACK”

[sacred meadow]

True, we’re just beating a dead horse here

But well, the flanking to the rear thing would at least make sense if Fury was a short 75mm Sherman Jumbo, but most would’ve been upgraded in the field to the long barrel high velocity 76mm by then

[manic latch]

Ww2 movies be like

America

[tough quail]

He has returned

[manic latch]

Chad

[sacred meadow]

RIP crew eyesight

[manic latch]

Krem fixing Sherman

[tough quail]

their eyes are the least of their concerns believe me

[sacred meadow]

true

[sacred meadow]

Sherman with a giant fucking forehead

[manic latch]

There is also T26 turret

[sacred meadow]

Oh right I forgot about that monstrosity

They were trying to shove the 90mm M3 into a Sherman right?

[tough quail]

yeah, which wasn't actually hard at all

[manic latch]

T 34 can fit 100mm

90mm shouldn't be hard for sherman

[tough quail]

the D-10T is kind of a bridge too far for the T-34 but the M3 is smaller and shermans have more wiggle room

[strong plank]

Screams in gun depression

[sacred meadow]

No more hull down for you

[strong plank]

Can’t wait for WT to get to the

[sacred meadow]

T-34 with a 100mm is possible but the tank is already stupid cramped enough

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/waffles-waffle-pancake-falling-over-gif-27624905

[strong plank]

Super Chunky FCS vehicles

[manic latch]

Top heavy sherman when near a slope hill

[strong plank]

from the 2000s

[sacred meadow]

There’s a reason everyone abandoned all sloped armor and Christie suspension

[sacred meadow]

Sherman Jumbo is great until you tell it to climb a slight incline

[strong plank]

Put him in coach, he’s ready

[sacred meadow]

WT trying to explain to me why my T-55 can’t go faster than 10MPH (something like that) when going up the slightest of slopes

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-tank-pup-puppy-cute-gif-16932615

[strong plank]

Actually the more I stare at early FCS renders the more they start to look like Griffin derivatives

Hey wait a second

[manic latch]

Things inspire each other ye

B 29 exists thanks to failed YB 19

[manic latch]

The m109 replacement

[strong plank]

FCS is such a goofy program visually

[manic latch]

If happens

I miss crusader

[strong plank]

They all range from looking like Lego vehicles to something out of a dune art book

With how flat and slopey they look

[manic latch]

My favorite tank is actually Object 490, but it was never built sadly. Too expensive and complex for her own good. But likely it's the most protected MBT design ever

[strong plank]

https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/0224ef209a4816c97b09e5cc6b24ba672e9a720d/5-Figure2-1.png

Like tell me the renders don’t look like they’re ripped from an RTS

[tough quail]

i dont think gaijin even has the brain power to get the 490 working

well, that one

[manic latch]

There is a mockup at least, tho yeah she is dead if you flank her

Like most tanks actually

[tough quail]

well yeah

[manic latch]

She was also going to have APS system

Literally most protected MBT ever

The tank was powered by two ZiM 4TD engines with the total output of up to 2000hp (the engines could work in low-consumption 800hp mode or in combat 1000hp mode), allowing the tank to go as fast as 80-90 km/h thanks to its excellent power-to weight ratio. Here’s where the two-part suspension played a major role – those engines were not located in parallel – instead, one engine was in the frontal part of the vehicle and was powering the front half of the suspension while the second engine was behind it and was powering the rear half.

2 engines

[strong plank]

Wait shit

WT only adds stuff that had a physical prototype right

The only part of FCS that got to the prototype phase was the NLOS-C

[manic latch]

Usually

They removed odd ones

Panther 2 Tiger 2 105 etc

Or the Panther AA who had wooden turret mockup

So it's not impossible for them to add paper vehicles. It's just according to what they wish

[tough quail]

they're going to have to start bending that rule harder and harder in the next couple years

they're flat out running out of high tier tonks

at a high velocity

[manic latch]

For now Navy accepts ships that was laid down

[strong plank]

I hope they add the XM1202 then

[tough quail]

out of the 490s im betting on uhh

this funny little boy well down the line

probably after the CATTB

[manic latch]

Topol I think

Cutie

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM2001_Crusader

I want this baby

[strong plank]

The army really looked at this and said “yeah this’ll replace our MBTs”

[tough quail]

its a nifty thing

crusader would be incredibly based

[manic latch]

Abrams engine

[strong plank]

IFV-sized vehicle with an auto-loaded XM360, a 50 cal, and a 40mm grenade launcher

[tough quail]

following the diablo 3 logic of crusaders being cooler than paladins

[strong plank]

because it was the early 2000s

[manic latch]

Abrams was and is becoming obese

A light frame was good idea for transportation

[strong plank]

Yeah that’s why they’re working on the M1E3/M1A3

[tough quail]

also just looks cool as shit

[manic latch]

Will laugh if E3 is like Armata

Unmanned autoloader turret for weight saving

[strong plank]

reportedly the two designs in the running rn

[tough quail]

jokes on you, cunt

casemate abrams

return to doom turtle

[strong plank]

are an unmanned turret design and an autoloaded manned turret design

[manic latch]

Leclerc:

[strong plank]

https://preview.redd.it/possible-m1e3-abrams-concept-model-v0-553n8zzxwltb1.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=25fb0429e7fb5e70b3f8abe3b23dc032159ff064

[tough quail]

im kind of waiting to see if the same thing happens with tonks that kind of happened with small arms in the us army

where the army gets so fucking tired of congress meddling with their R&D

they just throw their hands up and buy some weird european thing in a couple decades

[manic latch]

I swear it looks like T-90M turret

[tough quail]

K2 turrets kind of have that inward slope too

it's an increasingly common shape

[strong plank]

The distinctive cheek slopes are retained

So I am happy

[tough quail]

yeah i like that one

[manic latch]

Abrams's cheeks

[strong plank]

Seems like M1A3’s meant to be the next mainline MBT too

[tough quail]

also the dead center RCWS is aesthetic

[strong plank]

Not just a stopgap until they put something new into service

Plus the army’s reportedly canning the heavy component of the RCV program

[manic latch]

Problem is the engine

Old one is not produced anymore

Should start new one I say

Abrams X engine

Lighter too

[strong plank]

I’m curious how the M10 will keep pace with the other stuff still in development

There’s an increasing emphasis on networking and compatibility

To where the army wants that capability baked in

[manic latch]

US want cyberpunk

Likely inspired from F35

Connect everything etc

Share all data etc

[strong plank]

Not just the F35

The last few attempts to replace the Bradley for example

all had provisions for better networks

[manic latch]

Information is power idea since 90s ye

Future soldier gear etc

[strong plank]

IOT stuff

[grave ravine]

Fun fact, that Sherman probably also has a Kharkiv V-2 engine instead of the GAA

[manic latch]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Force_Warrior

Was a part of FCS

Died with it

[tough quail]

aye, it does

[manic latch]

US basically wants call of duty multi-player

Where everyone knows where enemy is etc

[tough quail]

every man a CAS call in

[manic latch]

Drones might do that

[strong plank]

The Ground Combat Vehicle program also had an IOT component

Enabling more efficient predictive maintenance

[grave ravine]

Anyways, as for WT event vehicles there are still another dozen American cold war light tanks we gotta get added

Theres like 4 more unique Sheridan variants alone

[strong plank]

at this point your average consumer car has more advanced systems than the average army afv

[tough quail]

im still immensely butthurt i cant get my M8 without paying some asshole $100

[grave ravine]

yeah

M8 shoulda been TT

[tough quail]

absolutely

[strong plank]

I have yet to start WT

I know the grind is bad

But there really aren’t any other games that scratch the tank itch

[tough quail]

it's how they get away with basically being a korean mmo

they kinda lucked out with weegee just not wanting to bother doing something more grounded, and their modern tank thing is pure chaos instead

[ivory ridge]

gaijin where is my centauro 2

got jebaited by the last update leak list where it was one of 3 vehicles that didnt come

[tough quail]

if they make it an event vehicle i will burn their hq to the ground

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/orange-cat-stare-gif-18177876402917143905

I dont think they will lol

that's like making like

any of the rank 8 vehicles released last patch as event

[tough quail]

i doubt it, but i also dont trust them with anything

[runic ermine]

I think you're right

[unkempt sedge]

Listening to the audio of these at work. Thought I'd post them here.

https://youtu.be/lexO56mqpdY?si=m_LbSeK5WXvxxCyu

https://youtu.be/4w5bJhvrCxc?si=4iBnFsa_sEO7PYTq

[tough quail]

[autumn sorrel]

Beautiful

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1750548215152193821

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1865, CSS Shenandoah arrived in #Australia seeking repairs. Despite protests from the U.S. consul, the Shenandoah was welcomed and attracted thousands of onlookers. The officers claimed Melbourne women showed them the time of their lives. 42 Aussies joined the crew.

Twitter · Jan 25, 2024, 3:56 PM

[subtle prawn]

Well, there is GHPC…

[strong plank]

True, and I do plan on giving it a go

[sacred meadow]

SP only though

And ngl

It does kinda getting boring after a while

But not like WT is any better

I think my favorite moment is when I got a nuke but two asshats on my team capped B meaning I wouldn’t make it in time

I still didn’t make it but was happy to see said asshats getting bombed by a friendly IL-28 after they capped

: D

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxd7jE6aRls

[distant charm]

Loading Screen tip:
The most succseful U-boot commander during ww2 was a man called Otto Kretschmer. He may be the most succsesfull Captain but he didn't have the most succsefull sub. For this sentence to make sense it is recommended that you read my earlier post about U-48 where this sentence makes a bit more sense. Kretschmer was also known as "Der Stille Otto" or in English "The Silent Otto" this is because he almost never boasted about his successes and on Patrols he almost never sendet radio messages to HQ. One day in the year 1941 he engaged a Convoy together with the Legendary Captain Günter Prien (The captain of the Famous U-47 witch was also known as "Der Stier von Scapa Flow" or in English "The Bull of Scapa Flow"). To this day no one knows exactly the cause of U-47 sinking while U-99 was heavily damaged and forced to the surface, where the crew surrendered. Sadly the "LI" known as or the Engineer died during that. His name was Schroeder for anyone interested. The rest of the Crew, including Kretschmer would spend the rest of the war in a POW camp in Kanada. Kretschmer was released in 1947 where after that he got married and actually had a happy life. He managed to reach the rank of "Flottenadmiral" or in English "Fleetadmiral" in the year 1965 in the German navy. He also was the President of the Deutsche Marine Bund.

During Kretschmers service, he managed to sink 47 ships totaling in a Tonnage of 272.282 BRT. Despite Kretschmer's early end in his career, no submarine Commander could even get close to the total tonnage sunk by him.
For anyone intrested here is my source:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Kretschmer_(Marineoffizier)

[hard prism]

DEUTSCHLAND

[distant charm]

GENAU

[hard prism]

i thought ur an bot lol

mb nrotha

brotha

[distant charm]

Damn

[hard prism]

here a hug

[distant charm]

Danke

[hard prism]

kein problem

[distant charm]

Ey noch ein Deutscher Kollege hier!

Freut mich

[spring briar]

Keep it in English please

[unkempt sedge]

https://youtu.be/5NqR9IQioGM?si=sAOvTlMCqJ_V1D1S

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1750668687684542579

[fresh nest]

Got this today

[shrewd pecan]

M110 I approve

[unkempt sedge]

https://youtu.be/KHeoTpXvYZA?si=mb1D5nGseOHyfTEB

[desert agate]

https://youtu.be/KKfSG2RZkiI?si=sshbh0exEw20KtCT

holy fuck yes

[unkempt sedge]

https://youtu.be/1Id_czDZmLw?si=mXB0EYrjAXylaRSS

[runic ermine]

Nice

[unkempt sedge]

https://youtu.be/aVH6hYwf6WA?si=LpXqD5m_u5h_Vbba

[remote monolith]

https://www.sci.news/paleontology/unktaheela-specta-12581.html

Unktaheela specta, fairly small Plesiosaur

holotype

[unkempt sedge]

https://youtu.be/QcfhervA06A?si=qKIHdG6D4w9YL26Y

[distant charm]

Good day everyone today I'm gonna do something diffrent, today I will just show y'all some historical videos about Submarines

Since I don't feel like Posting another informative text

https://tenor.com/view/ww2-marines-gif-23815564

https://youtu.be/vDh5-w49BII?si=6nEC8lMUb7ELNHR2

https://youtu.be/eyDjHuu_G2Y?si=L-h43ZjKWY2dumaz

On a little side note, if some of y'all wonder if there are anny German Submarines are left, the answer yes. There are Three fully in tact Submarines you can Visit, one being in Chicago. She is a typ IX C and her name is U-505. She was captured by the Americans in the later half of the war and can be visited in a Museum. But what about the famous typ Vii you say? Well for that you would have to visit Germany, where you can find U-995. She is the last typ Vii submarine. She is the latest version of the Typ VII, that being the Typ VII C/41. The main difference being from the Standard typ VII C, is that the she can dive deeper than the Normal C variant of her class. She can be found in Laboe, Kiel. And finally you can also find in Bremerhafen you can find one of Germany's "Wunderwaffen". It's a typ IXX going be the name of Wilhelmbauer. But she is also known as U-2540.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7dR5jZpVHw

[willow jungle]

Actual footage of Bismarck firing at Hood.
https://youtu.be/oWvZ8EEoovM?si=c-nMNApbFn1cDnha

[unkempt sedge]

https://youtu.be/KPHNmN9BaBw?si=hV3XA8MMWQgsbGPr

https://youtu.be/X-39xaN14dA?si=SDgDXvTaogvhb1Zb

Even the Tu-22M's at RIAT put on quite the show in 1992. Love how the noise set the car alarms off https://youtu.be/YGrJyhWmH0U?si=sgOWQCSYwSZ74vz3

[distant charm]

https://youtu.be/0DT0NqBgoAs?si=pKlYGlv03xwdjLh8
I found it in Color by accident XD

https://youtu.be/xt0h5ySCPE8?si=uatxC797gCMcAP_h
Man this BalticSeaBoats guy has some realy cool restored fotage, y'all should check him out for real

[spring briar]

No

[distant charm]

Ok

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/caesar-planet-of-the-apes-no-angry-gif-13928131

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp3h3CWmi1g

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_atnCCxvXk4

[fresh nest]

Got an opportunity to go see U-505 about 2 years ago, absolutely beautiful machine

[humble jewel]

We were so close to getting a naval Mustang

They were gonna call it the "Seahorse"

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1750999572913033381
https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1750999574905237563

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

Happy #AustraliaDay to our friends Down Under. #DYK that USS Canberra (CA-70/CAG-2) was named in honor of HMAS Canberra? It also was the first U.S. Navy ship to bear the name of a foreign capital. Continuing the tradition, USS Canberra (LCS-30) was commissioned on 22 July 2023.

Twitter · Jan 26, 2024, 9:50 PM

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

In 1960, USS Canberra did a bit of time traveling when the cruiser destroyed a drone by firing a missile from the future. This feat was accomplished when Canberra fired a missile on Monday that crossed the International Date Line to hit the drone on Sunday.
#AustraliaDay

Twitter · Jan 26, 2024, 9:50 PM

[rapid junco]

It is with great sadness that it was announced that on this Thursday (25)
Veteran João Pereira da Silva (a member of the FEB) passed away at the age of 100
https://www.instagram.com/p/C2iWN6XuglN/?igsh=MWRzendjbDgxdHIzbw==

55bi_exercito

Faleceu nesta quinta-feira, 25 de janeiro de 2024, o ex-Combatente da Força Expedicionária Brasileira (FEB) na Segunda Guerra Mundial, Tenente João Pereira da Silva, aos 100 anos. Ele participou do conflito entre 1944 e 1945. Foi uma honra recebê-lo em nossa Organização Militar por ocasião do 33º Encontro Nacional dos Veteranos da FEB realizado ...

Likes

287

Instagram

I met João Pereira on July 2023 at the National Meeting of Veterans

[unkempt sedge]

https://youtu.be/PpyZaui3gnk?si=vkp0x8hIPOO2GrsN

[remote monolith]

https://www.sci.news/paleontology/kwatisuchus-rosai-12636.html

Temnospondyls are funny

they're basically amphibian crocodiles

and got outcompeted by true crocodilians

the only large sized temnospondyl that made it out of the Triassic survived because it lived at a time when Australia had an environment too cold for crocodiles, the moment climate begins to warm it disappeared

[runic ermine]

Every major power (aside from Britain) had their own semi auto rifle

[near raptor]

Does anyone know if there are any alternate history books that cover what might have happened if Japan didn’t surrender? With the Russian invasion of Japan already in the works; the allied operation downfall would’ve cut Japan in half with an American side and a Soviet side. I think it’s a fairly interesting concept that I wish had more work done on it.

[grave ravine]

A Soviet invasion of Japan wasn't really feasible in the near term, the USSR didn't have the amphibious transport capabilities even with Project Hula

[remote monolith]

the USSR had no real prospect of invading Japan

the far smaller invasion of the Kurils was fairly botched for example

[grave ravine]

The USSR just lacks the means to put larger numbers of troops ashore and supply then, and that's ignoring the still significant land based airpower assets Japan could have employed

The Kuril Invasion only succeeded because Japan had already surrendered, so most of the Japanese military stood down

[desert agate]

even if the Soviets had the capability to move their troops, fact is that by August the Sea of Japan gets very choppy and this makes poor invasion weather, especially for an inexperienced force like the Soviets, the WA at least had plenty of experience landing in poor weather, so there wasnt really any feasible Soviet landing that was going to happen until at least mid 1946

[runic ermine]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Soviet_invasion_of_Hokkaido#:~:text=During the Soviet–Japanese War,before the invasion could begin.

[grave ravine]

This was only even proposed as being possible after Japan had already surrendered, and it still probably wouldn't have succeeded had they tried

[runic ermine]

I dont think japan was exactly in a very good position by that point

So it's definitely debatable

[grave ravine]

You are talking about trying to invade Hokkaido with only enough shipping to put a single rifle division ashore

It is just not happening

They nearly failed in their invasion of the much less defended Kuril islands

[remote monolith]

the Soviet Pacific Fleet was small

tiny even

its nowhere near capable of ferrying enough me to land in Hokkaido

[runic ermine]

What almost went wrong?

[grave ravine]

They lost a 6th of their landing fleet to an enemy who had already surrendered

because one Japanese garrison decided to fight

[runic ermine]

How?

[grave ravine]

and by landing fleet I mean the whole inventory of landing craft in the Soviet Pacific Fleet

[remote monolith]

basically, the landing force managed to surprise the Japanese defenders, but then they failed to capitalize on this and instead they just kinda meander around, giving time for the Japanese defenders to rally and hold them off. Japanese coastal defense assets also were capable of fending off Soviet naval support assets

[runic ermine]

How many?

20?

30?

[grave ravine]

5 out of the 30 LCI (L)s the US had given the Soviet Pacific Fleet

[runic ermine]

60?

[runic ermine]

5 out of 30 isn't that bad of a ratio

[ivory ridge]

against end war japan?

[remote monolith]

that combined with the performance of the Kuril Islands invasion force doesn't bode well at all

[shy grail]

Which is 1/6

[shy grail]

Against the force the Soviets planned to send you armed men are a pretty big threat

• whatever local coastal defences

[grave ravine]

Its 5 out of the 16 used in the landing

[runic ermine]

In comparison yes. However wouldn't they apply what they learned in the Kuril to invade hokkaido?

[grave ravine]

What they learned was that it wasn't possible

And presumably in a Japan doesnt surrender scenario this goes even worse for them

[remote monolith]

the Kuril force WAS the Hokkaido force. They initially planned to go straight to Hokkaido, but logistical constraints and other factors caused them to divert to the Kurils, and in the Kurils they nearly failed against a small garrison

[runic ermine]

80,000 isn't exactly small

[remote monolith]

the Soviets initially did not expect any serious resistance in a landing towards Japan, unlike the US who fully expected a coordinated resistance to a landing attempt. In turn this leads to the initial Soviet landing force being pretty small at only 2 divisions

[shy grail]

Imagine if they had actually tried to land in Hokkaido pre surrender, probably would have been wiped out

[grave ravine]

The vast majority of them surrendered without fighting, because again Japan had already surrendered

the actual fight was just the Shumshu garrison

[runic ermine]

True

[grave ravine]

Which also surrendered after a day of fighting on orders from their government

[remote monolith]

yeah Sumshu was the only time the Kuril garrison fought, and it was the first landing. After that the surrender had already been announced so the Soviets just clean up the room

[grave ravine]

Like to be clear in a day of fighting attacking one of the Kuril Island Garrisons, Japan lost about 1/6 of their landing force, both in terms of losses of the LCIs but also casualties in the forces that went ashore

[runic ermine]

Still kinda crazy how even today japan claims sovereignty over the kuril

[grave ravine]

And this happened without the mass employment of Kamikazes that you would have seen had Japan not surrendered

[runic ermine]

But weren't the defenses on hokkaido on the south part of the island?

[grave ravine]

They would likely actually have been concentrated more to the North, precisely because of the Soviet threat

[runic ermine]

I remember reading that the defenses were focused on the south part of the island due to the American island hopping campaign

[grave ravine]

you are probably thinking of Kyushu

[runic ermine]

No I'm thinking of hokkaido

Specifically Rumoi

The soviet landing site

[remote monolith]

just think this;the Kuril, as you said, was defended by a total of 80,000 men. The Japanese aren't blind to a potential invasion from Manchuria and have prepared accordingly from the experience at Shumshu. There's no concrete numbers involving the defense of Hokkaido, but its unlikely that it's any less defended than the Kurils, in addition to it being closer to Kyushu and thus within range of strong japanese air assets

[runic ermine]

I'd say it would be even more heavily defended

However it was also by these guys and gals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_Fighting_Corps

[runic ermine]

Also the closest thing we have to numbers is an order of battle

[grave ravine]

Japan had actually been shifting large forces back from the Kuriles to Hokkaido in the last couple months of the war

[remote monolith]

I want to consult Giangreco on this but I'm managing a class rn so I can't access it quickly

[runic ermine]

I'm gonna go to sleep. Gn

[remote monolith]

On the same day that the 87th Rifle Corps’ landing at Rumoi was ordered, Soviet forces conducted a long-planned amphibious assault against the Japanese base on the Kurile island of Shumshu. Located near the southern tip of the Soviet’s Kamchatka Peninsula, its garrison of a brigade of 91st Division troops put up a fierce resistance until ordered to cease fire by higher headquarters in Hokkaido. So fierce, in fact, that the Japanese inflicted far more casualties than they received—1,018 versus the Soviets’ 1,567 (some sources state higher) a third of whom were killed. Worse yet, when 16 of the 30 Made-In America LCI assault ships and their US-trained crews from Project Hula tried to bring in the second wave, five of them were sunk by Japanese artillery.

The Peoples Volunteer Corps on Hokkaido, as throughout Japan, was made up of males aged fifteen to sixty and females aged seventeen to forty—essentially all but the children or aged of the island’s 3,800,000 population. Also known as the Volunteer Combat Corps, they received training in the use of spears, swords, firearms, and explosives from retired officers and were to be at the disposal, literally, of the Imperial Army when called to duty for any needed task, be it digging tunnels, acting as porters, or serving as cannon fodder. Whether it was Americans coming ashore in the summer of 1946 or Russians in August of 1945, these willing—and heavily indoctrinated—masses would be a significant factor during any invasion.

[grave ravine]

The two major coastal defense fortresses were at Soya in the north and Tsuruga in the South, covering the main straits, but the main mobile forces were stationed near the railheads in the center of Hokkaido

5th Area Army had about 80 Kamikaze planes in Hokkaido, and there were about 100 of the Shinyo suicide boats around Soya that would have been able to interdict Soviet forces attacking Rumoi

[shy grail]

That’s the points covering the two straits FYI

[autumn sorrel]

You can keep laughing until a 140cm Japanese schoolgirl run you through with a bamboo spear. You can point at Volksturm and laugh at how desperate German are but that doesn’t get over the fact that many Volksturm unit fought with near suicidal ferocity. Take this to Japan where these people are jam packed into their head about the divinity of their emperor, of how it is their duty to fight and how no quarter be given or ask. They maybe under equipped but they have the mass and if we take Okinawa into account and how it turn out, Soviet would be lucky if they even manage to hold on their landing zone, that presuming they even managed to land in the first place.

[desert agate]

I would note that of all the areas of Japan to attempt an invasion as a force that has quite literally never attempted such a thing, Hokkaido is probably the worst place to start with

[wintry moat]

Why is that?

Really unfavorable terrain?

[desert agate]

incredibly so

plus you have basically no infrastructure

meaning that for the Red Army, a force whose logistics train was entirely motorised at this point, you now cant move food and ammunition to the front

even today the far North of Hokkaido is incredibly desolate

[remote monolith]

to add to hit's answer, the site they chose for a landing was quite literally a small ass port in bumfuck nowhere that can barely supply a division

because they feel its the only place not defended well enough for the operation to succeed

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Boo00vlksPY

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwPsgXZpSXI

[eternal veldt]

Haruna's pagoda and funnel 2 being scrapped.

[runic ermine]

Yes. An invasion would not be easy but it's possible

[autumn sorrel]

"Possible"

[runic ermine]

Da

[desert agate]

why do you hurt me

[fierce sparrow]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1751359948057985141

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1900, Hyman G. Rickover was born. "The Father of the Nuclear Navy" gained a reputation for being so ornery and contrarian that when he died in 1986, a joke circulated in the Pentagon that he would be back in three days.

Twitter · Jan 27, 2024, 9:42 PM

[runic ermine]

That's actually kinda wholesome

[rapid junco]

@ivory ridge

[ivory ridge]

[rapid junco]

I think we only named a ship after an artist like once

A Cruiser called Carlos Gomes
Which was A musician

Ok
Not a Cruiser
But a transport later minelayer

[distant charm]

Loading Screen tip:
Today we are gonna talk about the U-995. As I already mentioned before, she is the last remaining Typ VII Sub, that is still fully intact (although it is worth mentioning, that she isn't in her original state, as some changes had to be made to keep her safe and open to the public). Her Kiel was laid on the 25. November 1942 and her "Stapellauf" was on the 22. July 1943. Her "Indienststellung" was on the 16. September 1943. In her service time, she had two Captains. The first one was a man named Walter Khöntopp and the second was Hans-Georg Hess. During her service time, she managed to do 9 Patrols and during those nine Patrols she managed to sink 4 Freighters and 1 Warship. During her Ausbildun or in english her Training, she was atacked from Aircraft. She was damaged and neded to make some repairs. After her Ausbildung she was assigned to the 13. U-Flotilla in Trondheim. During these Patrols the first Capatin, that was Kapitänleutnant Walter Khöntopp was being acused for being a coward, because he didn't engage a Convoy, beliving that it would likly lead to their death. The Crew reported this to High Command where Walter was almost courtmartiald but his wife somehow managed to stop that from happening. Walter would still tho lose command of his Sub and the new Commander would be Oberleutnant zur See Hans-Georg Hess. Despite his lower rank and experience, he saw more success then Walter. U-995 even dared to break into a Harbor called Kirkenes and sink a ship there. It's also worth noting, that one of her torpedo's malfunctioned and turned around heading back to the sub. The Torpedo hit her but it didn't explode. After the War, the sub was not murdered in operation deadlight because she couldn't even get to Britain or move at all, because she was being fitted with a snorkel. So instead she was given to Norway were she got the new name Kaura and Nato called her S 309. She was a school boat, teaching the Norwegian crews how to be a Submariner.
Pt.2

[distant charm]

Pt.2
After some years, she was given back to Germany, under the condition, that she would become a Museum. There where many Museums that wanted her but in the end the Marine Ehrenmahl Laboe won and got the sub. They brought the sub back to her Original state with German letters and tried there best to bring her back to her 1945 state with the Snorkel. They are still working on it, to this day as there are some shameless people who quit literally stole parts from the Submarine. One guy even managed to steal a damn Periscope. Another guy stole the depth gauge or in German the Tiefenmesser. And her bow was in a bad shape and it became a very unsafe area to the public as her bow could fell of at any moment, so they had to remove her bow and replace it. Her flack gun is the American Bofors AA gun that looks like the 3.7 CM Flack gun and the list goes on. But the people that are taking care of the sub do genuinely care about here. They try their best to keep her in the best state they possibly can with the limited resources that they have. They even have gotten some actors from time to time who act like a submarine crew that is about to leave port, as they stack food and check for any possible damages to the sub etc. This event is called Lebendies Museum U-995 and it's really worth it, to visit her during that event.
Aniways that's all the time I have for today, I hope this was very informative for y'all and as always here is my source:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_995_(Kriegsmarine)
and here is a little extra for those who are interested to see what this "Lebendiges Museum" is about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW9plWsxKyg&t=9s

[distant charm]

By the way U-995 is also partnered with the U-534 crew (well not the actual crew but the crew that are trying to restore her) but I will get into that sub later, after I have covered U-505 here.
But for anyone interested you can read more about their Partnership here (but be ware it's on German... just like everything I send here). They are also gonna celebrate U-995's birthday where you get to see original uniforms and old stuff from the U-534.
https://mk-u995.de/berichte/80-jahre-u-995-eines-der-aeltesten-u-bootmuseen-deutschlands-feiert-geburtstag/

[zealous vine]

Has counter-steering worked to buy some time for a listing ship?

[distant charm]

You mean counter flooding right? Like when a ship is listing to one direction, you intentionally flood other compartments to stabilize the ship

Depends, if you do it correctly then yes and if not uh well let's just say the ship becomes a submarine really fast

Something like that requires some real good math and precision

I might do some extra research for that and make a post about it tomorrow because this now really has gotten me interested

[autumn sorrel]

If you are thinking about steering the ship to turn into the opposite side of listing, seeing that ship listing on the opposite side of the direction that ship are steer into at speed, I think open all the valve is the only way that make the ship capsized faster

[shy grail]

Algerie had the ability to correct a 22 degree list in 5 min by counterflooding the inboard void space that made up her TDS

Stuff like that

The Japanese were a bit overzealous though

Arguably though counterflooding should be done in conjunction by heavily liquid loading a ship then dumping out the liquid on the same side that said ship is flooded

[distant charm]

Good stuff man, i Shure am gonna put you into my source's on my next post about this topic

[desert agate]

discord users are not sources

[distant charm]

I mean they kinda are if they know something and spread the information why shouldn't I be able to use them as a source then? Like Shure wiki may be a reliable source and all but I would consider him to be also a reliable source since ya know it kinda makes sense to dump something on the one side while making the other side heavier. I mean for all I know a source does not always have to be a website like Wikipedia. A source could a also be another person (like a ww2 veteran or a book or a yt documentary or in my case another Discord user. The only difference is the reliability of said sources

[eternal veldt]

A source should preferably be academic/peer reviewed. You can use what a discord user said as a gateway, but not itself as a source.

It's why wikipedia is an exceptionally poor reference when it comes to university-level research - there is no control over the content nor reviews of a controlled quality.

[distant charm]

Fair enough but you get my point right? In general a source does not always has to be a website right?

[shy grail]

Tbf you should go search for a book or something

[distant charm]

Fair enough

[eternal veldt]

Primary documentation is your best way if you're interested in the specifics.

[shy grail]

Well, yeah although you could ask for a source along with it

[eternal veldt]

Otherwise, a book, preferably multiple on the same subject so you can get the most objective view on the subject.

[shy grail]

This in particular is from French Cruisers 1922-1956 by Jean Moulin and John Jordan

[distant charm]

Well this is actually really helpful, thanks!

[eternal veldt]

A user has already pinned some of the helpful book titles in the channel. You can read the pins to find those titles.

[distant charm]

Actually out of curiosity could I use my own knowledge as a source like for example I have a degree on the technical parts of ships, could I in theory then just sight myself as a source and just had in my diploma as evidence of my knowledge?

[eternal veldt]

Most of the times I state what I remember on the subject, and refer back to the book as necessary.

For example, if you ask me why the battleship Richelieu had suffered a firing malfunction at the Battle of Dakar, I'd tell you the key points, then point back to Jordan's French Battleships book as necessary.

[distant charm]

Makes sense

[distant charm]

I still wonder tho would that count as a source? Because the guy went to school and having prove that he passed the exams etc and showing that diploma would like tell another person that the guy with the diploma probably knows a thing or two of said topic right and there for he could count as a reliable source right?

[unkempt sedge]

https://youtu.be/wxb-ZDb0emg?si=Yo_NPN-D-IROalrh

[desert agate]

A CAPTURED ITALIAN 20/65 BREDA 20MM ANTI-AIRCRAFT CANNON MOUNTED AMIDSHIP, AFT OF THE 12 POUNDER HIGH ANGLE ANTI-AIRCARFT GUN THAT REPLACED THE AFT TORPEDO TUBES ON THE AUSTRALIAN V CLASS DESTOYER HMAS VENDETTA. (PHOTOGRAPHED BY ROBERT MILNE, HMAS VENDETTA)
credit: Australian War Memorial

Commonwealth forces in North Africa launched a devastating land campaign against the Italians in the early days of 1941, this led to vast amount of equipment being captured, most of which was placed into warehouses in Alexandria until a use could be found for it
Among that vast equipment captured, was a number of Italian anti-aircraft guns
The Royal Australian Navy deployed its flotilla of old V class destroyers, with their W class destroyer leader to the Mediterranean in early 1940, some time before the fall of France to supplement British deployments out of the region to the North Sea, however with the Italian entry into the war in mid-1940, the Australian destroyers soon found themselves under consistent aerial attack, which their eclectic armament had no ability to effectively counter. The Australian logistical chain, dependent on the British as it was, was incapable of providing that additional AA.
Thus some enterprising sailors on leave in Alexandria found themselves bribing some Alexandria warehouse guards and making off with some of the captured Italian AA guns
Destroyers of the Royal Navy were incapable of such modification however, their commanders were under the close eye of the admiralty in London, whereas the RAN found itself mostly separated from its senior staff in Sydney and Canberra and was able to get away with unsanctioned modifications, thus all of the RANs destroyers, and HMAS Perth were fitted with these captured Italian guns and supplied with ammunition captured during the early desert campaigns
When these ships made their return to Australia in the later days of 1941 to prepare for the Japanese onslaught which was all but inevitable at this point, the guns were thrown into the sea to avoid any questions from senior staff who were now a lot closer to their ships and therefore able to control them to a greater degree

[eternal veldt]

Appeal to authority is a bad call, especially on the internet. I rarely take people's claims as hard fact just because they claim "I'm from the navy, I have a degree in X, etc." unless their argument is sound.

[remote monolith]

note that many people who do have say, a degree in history is very likely to specialize in a time period unrelated to the one you're looking for

[autumn sorrel]

There like even degree for specific period or history subject matter

[desert agate]

todd flexing in the chat

[remote monolith]

thus unless they have access to actual good research material and they're genuinely specialized in the subject, they should still be considered about as believable as the average joe

[remote monolith]

yeah right I'm just a bachelor hit, and my specialization is colonial history so I defers to you, jaba, silver and others here for world wars

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, Revolutionary era?

[eternal veldt]

I don't have any relevant degrees, and truth be told, not exactly well read.

[remote monolith]

close, my research is about 1910-1930ish period and the development of city sanitation planning

[remote monolith]

you're still the one with the best access to good bote materials tho

[autumn sorrel]

Ah, more about social stuff

True, Silver have like every copies of Jane's fighting ships

[remote monolith]

yep, sadly after my one lector that specialized in military history is gone basically nobody take that historical angle anymore, everybody either goes for economy, cultural, or social items since the relevant lectors are still around

[distant charm]

Damn well this sucks I guess because I am actually planning to become a technician for ships and maby later on learn about the nautical stuff, but I can see why it is probably a bad idea to do that!

[desert agate]

Fucking

Cunt

Fuck my camera

[distant charm]

Woa calm down there my guy

[desert agate]

Silver I got this in Japan

[desert agate]

It's a cultural thing it's fine

[distant charm]

Oh ok

[autumn sorrel]

Different for me, I try to learn more about Vietnam War era Economy of both North and South but outside of few reference books that escaped censorship, none of my teacher nor professor I know of even know about the subject.

[desert agate]

https://tenor.com/view/land-down-under-men-at-work-bottals-druming-gif-22688759

[runic ermine]

Cool

[remote monolith]

hot potato topic eh?

[autumn sorrel]

In English as well?

[desert agate]

@eternal veldt

[desert agate]

Indeed

[distant charm]

Do you also have books about Submarines?

[autumn sorrel]

Not really, it just that most historian like the military side more and they neglect all other thing bc it is more difficult to track down record and number.

[desert agate]

No

[autumn sorrel]

Nice

[unkempt sedge]

THIS!

I really do not trust people on the internet as much as I did as they can always lie and say "I have experience in (insert)."

[desert agate]

I only bought the Kongou book because they're my favourite non Australian warships

[remote monolith]

ah I see

[desert agate]

If it's not Australian or a Kongou I won't spend money on it

[distant charm]

Damn

[desert agate]

I do sail the 7 seas and I do have a good book on the USNs submarines in Fremantle around somewhere

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, I pretty sure there are record about North Vietnam economy but those are kinda dubious source while the South records are either destroy, forgotten somewhere or just mush paper by now.

[desert agate]

Very rarely discussed is that base but it hosted 1/4 of all American submarines in WW2, was closer to the front than Pearl Harbour and had full maintenance facilities

[eternal veldt]

Should be a good book. Can't go wrong with Ahlberg and Lengerer.

[desert agate]

Has some very good information in it yeah

Enjoyed flicking through it and I'll give it a deeper read at some point

[autumn sorrel]

Case in point, one the book that I take reference about isn't actually talking about economy but some kind of weird history military-esque with some chapter talk about how each side economy work but majority of the chapter are just propaganda about battles. You can basically read out the bias in each line when talking about the north but surprisingly subjective when it come to the south numbers.

[remote monolith]

I can imagine that

[autumn sorrel]

I guess, talking about economy is way more boring than writing book about military history.

[visual rover]

History of HNLMS De Ruyter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_De_Ruyter

[steep summit]

https://youtube.com/shorts/uLh3U7q1yJs?si=1k_fzuMkFHIPJB6p now we gotta wait for someone to draw vestal throwing a rope to the burning Arizona (no problem if i put it here rite? ._. DM me if not)

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NASAhistory/status/1751621169508175970

NASA History Office (@NASAhistory) on X

“We will never forget them… as they… 'slipped the surly bonds of earth' to 'touch the face of God'"

Today in 1986, Space Shuttle Challenger exploded at 11:39 am just 73 sec after launch, killing the STS-51L crew. We honor their memory. #NASARemembers 💐 https://t.co/cvsPbIO2tc

Twitter · Jan 28, 2024, 3:00 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/raf-voyager-in-tyre-blow-out-scare/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfmfESnIAbg

[runic ermine]

I have a feeling that you like those ships

[shrewd pecan]

god Cold War European frigates were funky looking

Dome heads

[runic ermine]

Does anyone want me to explain why I think it would be possible?

[blissful imp]

is it cause japan never garrisons their core territory in hoi4

I'm anticipating either a very eventful or a very uneventful few months...

it would be nice if russia would chill so i dont have to work more. or just implode.

[grave ravine]

We already explained why it isn't, even if the Soviets manage to get ashore successfully, which is a huge if given the way shit went down at Shumshu, all you have achieved is stranding a single rifle division in the middle of nowhere in Hokkaido, surrounded by an immensely hostile population, and with no resupply

Before eventually Japanese mobile forces respond and destroy the Soviet forces

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1751820558679896340

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

During WWI, the Navy had a sub with the hull number 19½ because USS G-1 had been overlooked when early subs were assigned new numbers based on contract dates. G-1 should have been 20 but that had already been assigned to USS F-1. The Navy then squeezed G-1 in at 19½.
#SubSunday

Twitter · Jan 29, 2024, 4:12 AM

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1751647605136711848

[blissful imp]

that is 100% amazing and spot on for "we have this problem" and someone going "hold my beer"

[night heart]

https://fixupx.com/NonCRDDefence/status/1751736522435338575

[spring briar]

[night heart]

Gotta catch them all

[visual rover]

Sure i like all ships same names but time line years no same type ships
I like Modern Frigate 21st century

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Zeven_Provinciën-class_frigate

[distant charm]

So I found an intresting website that tells you where the submarines patroled and what events happened during those patrolls like for example in cordinates X/Y the Sub got atacked by aircraft on day xy etc aniways I think I will from now on use this website as my new source as I think it is more reliable and it also has this intresting feature that I mentioned in this comment where you can look their patrolles up on a map and see what they did etc and I was also wondering if y'all would consider this a reliable source
https://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u995.html

[shy grail]

It’s a good resource for HMS specifically as well, has all the logs of attacks. May not be accurate to what happened though (apart from the submarines)

[desert agate]

saw a couple of those when i was in the netherlands in 2022 up in Den Helder

was neat but i refer the chat to my stop building air warfare frigates shitpost

[frozen kestrel]

Leave it to the War Thunder players to do this shit...

[runic ermine]

Not even a month into 2024

[runic ermine]

What mobile forces? This is late war japan we're talking about. Also the defenses were on the south part of the islands. The Soviets were attacking from the north

I'm not saying it would be easy. I'm saying that it's very much possible

[autumn sorrel]

You didn't read his previous respond?

5th Area Army station their mobile force in the Center of Hokkaido and use railway to transport them.

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, it is possible that they can land 1 division if they have the element of surprise but taking Iwo Jima and Okinawa into account, of how USN have to dedicated so many assets to cover their landing operation, saying that the Soviet can somehow land 2 divisions unmolested without the entire Japanese Northern defense area aircrafts pounding them, not to mention Kamikaze attack against troop transport, plus if the defenders manage to stop the Soviet from pushing out of their landing zone like at Anzio giving 5th Area Army time to mobilize their reserve. Saying Soviet can succeed is pretty delusional.

[runic ermine]

A lot more than two divisions. It was initially 2

[runic ermine]

I'm saying that it's possible not easy

[autumn sorrel]

Yes and they already having problem moving those 2 divs, imagine moving entire Corp

[runic ermine]

I remember reading that they did have plans to make muliple trips. As bad as that sounds at this point the IJN (or what's left of it) can't really stop them

[autumn sorrel]

Didn't you read what we were saying? We aren't saying the largest threat is IJN, it is the IJN and IJA air assets and the Kamikazes

[runic ermine]

How many airfields are in or close to Hokkaido?

Also couldn't the Soviet use their own aircraft for air coverage or were there no airfields near by?

[grave ravine]

Landing 2 divisions is a pipe dream

They only have the transport and landing capabilities to land 1

They hoped to have the fleet return and pick up the second and land it, but that just ignores the inevitable attrition the landing fleet will suffer

Again, they lost 1/6 of the fleet attacking the Kuriles after Japan had already surrendered

[runic ermine]

True but didn't they plan to make more than one trip?

I remember reading that

[grave ravine]

Yes, they planned to make a second trip, but I seriously doubt enough transport capability will survive to transport a second division

[runic ermine]

Sure

[autumn sorrel]

Tokachi, Chitose, Kenebetsu,.... You really want to go do this rabbit hole?

[grave ravine]

Because the landing site is over 200 miles from any Soviet held territory

[runic ermine]

What if they established a beach head?

[strong plank]

are you just reading what you want to read or

[runic ermine]

Ah. That complicates air coverage

[autumn sorrel]

With a regiment? Sure, possible. Suicidal but possible