history

[remote monolith]

https://www.livescience.com/animals/dinosaurs/nanotyrannus-vs-t-rex-saga-continues-controversial-study-doesnt-settle-the-question-at-all

(the paper is already criticized to hell and back by other Paleontologists)

[autumn sorrel]

Tldr?

[ivory ridge]

I think generally we call them female, but it depends

mostly depends on the hull class

because of course those are gendered nouns

[remote monolith]

paper said Nanotyrannus, a genus that's commonly said and repeatedly proven to be a juvenile Tyrannosaurus, is valid. Problem is the methodology used in the paper has been used before and produced literally the exact opposite conclusions

[ivory ridge]

Corazzata (Battleship) is feminine

[remote monolith]

so some scientific fuckery is happening here

[ivory ridge]

but Incrociatore (cruiser) and cacciatorpediniere (destroyer) are masculine

So the battleship littorio becomes La Corazzata Littorio, or La Littorio

[autumn sorrel]

So a smaller skeletons make scientist think of different species huh?

[ivory ridge]

while The cruiser Zara becomes L'incrociatore Zara o lo Zara

instead of La Zara

while generally, they are seen as feminine because the word for ship, Nave, is feminine

[oak harness]

is at least learning something.

[remote monolith]

there's some valid discussions about this since juvenile rexes has very different physiology than adults. We're talking an animal built for high speed hunting and equipped with slicing teeth turning into an endurance hunter specced for bone crushing bites

[runic ermine]

No its because it was viewed as a guardian that protects the sailors

[remote monolith]

coupled with the fact that Tyrannosaurus is literally the only large theropod in late Maastrichtian Cretaceous makes some people wonder if there's a genus of predator dinosaurs they missed

so when rhe first juvenile rex got found some paleontologists think it's probably a different dinosaur altogether

the debate is supposed to be conclusively closed years ago, but sometimes the odd contrarians pop up

[strong mountain]

Maxbe the Trex drove of any competition?

[remote monolith]

it's a genuine possibility. The last known large predator in Cretaceous west North America before the rex disappeared off the fossil record just as the first rexes appear, plus the rex appears to occupy different niches in their ecosystem so you have a food chain filled with differently aged rexes as predators at every stage

[ivory ridge]

and from what i can tell, there is no distinction between civilian and military

again just based on what the ship is

a ferry, in italian Traghetto, is masculine, so for example "Il Capo Bianco"

a motor ship, Motonave, is feminine, so "La Romagna"

[oak harness]

only has some vaguely remembered high school spanish, but from that has enough to understand that gendered nouns are a thing in Romance languages.

[ivory ridge]

tho im still not sure why we say Il Cavour and not La Cavour when Portaerei is feminine

[desert agate]

Why are french chairs women

[ivory ridge]

because they want to fuck them

[desert agate]

Hmm

[ivory ridge]

anyway

boat

[oak harness]

Ooh, asymetric funnels? Interesting.

[spiral cedar]

As if the French wouldn't fuxk a male chair?

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/466250908682944522/1125009239748911155/ezgif-5-77933decaa.gif

[solid mango]

Chat, hear me out...

[autumn sorrel]

No

[fierce sparrow]

[frozen kestrel]

Why's the superstructure so... pale?

[frozen kestrel]

Just fixed an inaccuracy with the secondary turrets where I had the sloping faces colored dark grey as well

[wintry moat]

How long you been workin on her?

This is awesome

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1742934999765328122

[frozen kestrel]

Most of this week

[wintry moat]

Nice

[heady sail]

The default gender for civilian ships is female, instead the default gender for warships is male in Italian. If imply the class, then the gender of the ship becomes the one of the class. For example you would say "il Littorio", but if you are implying "la corazzata"(battleship), which is feminine, you would say la Littorio. Or, you would say "il Gorizia", if you imply "incrociatore" (cruiser), which is masculine, it would always be "il Gorizia". Regarding the Cavour, if we imply "portaerei"(aircraft carrier) it would become "la Cavour", which is feminine. Probably you heard "il Cavour" because they weren't implying "la portaerei" e they were defaulting to masculine.

[runic ermine]

Interesting

[coral palm]

Which ship in AL is the most modern or most recently built?

[desert agate]

HMS Centaur last i checked

[runic ermine]

Good question

[desert agate]

laid down 44 commissioned 53 (post war budgets lol)

i dont believe theyve added any more modern ships

[ivory ridge]

North 2

[desert agate]

[ivory ridge]

or well

depending which number you choose

laid down 2 months later

launched in 51

commissioned in 53

like 4 months before centaur

but centaur was launched 4 years prior

plus there is the fact the north 2 we got isnt like

the final north 2 but her initial planned fit

[desert agate]

commission is my preferred date but yeah it really does depend

[ivory ridge]

it's a tradition that they are trying to keep alive but frankly it's not working, especially when it comes to historical ships

im pretty sure in the entire Bagnasco book the masculine isnt used once

but

also implying the class is something you like

always do

[thorn trail]

If talking about fully entered service, Jean Bart should be a contender for most recent right

Since she entered only fully in 1955

[fierce sparrow]

https://fxtwitter.com/vodk_anon/status/1742989545048514999

[merry summit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ79i11JSnU Blucher moment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlBkym_Ky6E

[eternal veldt]

I think Centaur isn't the youngest anymore with her sister Albion?

[shy grail]

Nvm yeah launched later, May 1947 vs April 1947, and commissioned in 1954 vs 1953

[heady sail]

This is an excerpt from one of the appendices of the Stefano Sappino's book about the Impero aircraft carrier.

"The Regia Marina’s Ship Naming
In Italian, the warship names are always male. Therefore, ‘il’ article is used, which is the male version of ‘the’—il Roma, il Littorio, il Saetta, etc.
However, the correct way to refer to a Regia Marina warship is to label it with the words ‘Regia Nave’, abbreviated as R. N. or RN. It represents the Italian equivalent of the British HMS—in other words, it means ‘King’s ship’.
If RN is present, the article assumes the gender of ‘Nave’, which is feminine, therefore ‘la’, the female version of ‘the’—la RN Roma, la RN Littorio, la RN Saetta, etc.
If the ship type precedes the name, the article assumes the gender of the type of ship. Usually, if the type of ship is present, the ‘RN’ prefix is not used.
It is not rare for the type of ship to be implicit while leaving its article gender before the ship name.
To complicate matters furthersome ships, usually smaller ones, have the prefix ‘R’ (King’s) followed by their type—for example, Regio Sommergibile (Submarine (RS)), Regio Caccia Torpediniere (destroyer (RCT)), Regio Incrociatore (cruiser (RI)), Regia Torpediniera (torpedo boat (RT)). These abbreviations can also be found on the ribbons of the caps of those embarked on the ships. In this case, the article assumes the gender of the type of ship, whichever it may be."

So, if I understood correctly, a warship is always male, but the correct way to address a Regia Marina 's ship is to add the prefix "Regia Nave" which is female. Tho I heard that "Regia Nave" was to be used only with ships of the line or with battleship, other ships used other prefixes such as Regio Incrociatore(RI) or Regio cacciatorpediniere (RC), which are masculine, so the gender would have been masculine. Currently the Marina Militare doesn't use any prefix so, I guess the gender is always male, unless you are implying the class. The classes the the Italian navy currently use which are feminine are portaerei, fregata and nave da supporto, the others are masculine. Regarding the Cavour I don't know why is masculine, given that is classified as "portaerei", tho the Garibaldi would be always masculine given that is classified as an aircraft cruiser (incrociatore portaeromobili) which is masculine.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP85tD9pAbk

[runic ermine]

All 3 of em

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBdkSPmLsDw

[somber knoll]

So I take that basically the Italians did a better job than Lindemann did but still cannot shake the overall naval tradition?

Sailors will be sailors I guess

[frozen kestrel]

Quick question about Bismarck. This thing, right? What is it? Is it a spotlight, signal lamp, like, what is this thing?

[crude vapor]

Signal lamps usually look like this, so I'm inclined to believe searchlight
The lines on the thing would suggest slits

[frozen kestrel]

Aight, so it's a searchlight. Thanks.

Yeah, so that actually ended up spiraling into something super cool (to me at least)

[crude vapor]

Can never hurt to gain more knowledge

[runic ermine]

That is a search light judging from its size

Also is it just me or did vichy france have very little success in ww2

[spring briar]

That shouldn’t be a surprise

[runic ermine]

They did destroy a lot of thailand's fleet tho. However they got curb stomped during operation torch and entire units defected

[spring briar]

Good

Free France

[frozen kestrel]

Forward half of the heavy flak's (almost) done

[runic ermine]

I feel like you dont like vichy

like a lot

understandable

[spring briar]

Why would I like them

[runic ermine]

idk some historians like studying specific factions of a conflict or like how their uniforms look. Even if their actions dont align with their beliefs

ya know what im trying to say?

[ivory ridge]

[spring briar]

Yes but that would not require me liking em

[runic ermine]

Oh I see

My bad

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JOBA_15roo

[frozen kestrel]

And finally started fixing the rivets on the secondary turrets

[runic ermine]

looking better

[frozen kestrel]

the top image is a top down drawing of Bismarck...
the bottom image is the model I'm working with...

I'd have to change a lot for it to look just like Bismarck

[wintry moat]

Is this your custom model

or ?

something else?

[frozen kestrel]

Model I found on BlendSwap. I will model Bismarck eventually, and that's gonna be painful in itself, considering how much detail I plan on putting in it

[remote monolith]

https://fxtwitter.com/BretDevereaux/status/1630724133754486787?s=20

no dunni predreads

[wintry moat]

Cool

You just updating their model?

im currently building Hood in Space Engineers

[frozen kestrel]

Changing it from Tirpitz to Bismarck, because the only ones of Bismarck I found looked pretty bad, to say the least. And ripping models from WoWs would probably be painful since I don't see any decent tutorials on how to do it.

[wintry moat]

I getcha

So

Why is this something your undertaking?

its cool either way

[frozen kestrel]

Literally for one render in Blender

[wintry moat]

lol

Fair enough

[frozen kestrel]

I don't know why I just went with it, but I started editing it, before just sayin' "Fuck it, we ball" and full sending it

[wintry moat]

Whenever your finished, could you send me some shots of the back of her forward superstructure

I need to update my Bismarck model on Space engineers

and i cant find shit for it

[frozen kestrel]

I'll see what I can manage

Do you prefer perspective or orthographic view?

[wintry moat]

Either

[frozen kestrel]

Now that I think about it, I really should start working on a model of Hood

[wintry moat]

I have been using a model of Hood that is like, 5 foot long

5 foot 8 actually

[frozen kestrel]

Oh, neato

I'm guessing it's like 1/150 scale?

[eternal veldt]

@frozen kestrel

attached is the WoWS model should you feel like it, as well as the booklet of general plans if you want to work on your own model.

[silver crest]

TIL that prince albert had a weird piercing

that i wish i never knew about

[desert agate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCnvqYPMZqQ&t=7s&ab_channel=Drachinifel

i got my shoutout from driving Drach

[spring briar]

[desert agate]

face reveal

[glass trail]

cute

[autumn sorrel]

When they use battleship gun, are there any situations that a lighter propellant charge use instead of full charge?

Not in ballistics testing on armor but in actual combat.

[chilly osprey]

For things like coastal bombardment, yes

Just to reduce gun wear

[remote monolith]

https://ras.ac.uk/news-and-press/news/new-images-reveal-what-neptune-and-uranus-really-look

Neptune bros....

its Neptover

[runic ermine]

I dont know how to take this

[crude vapor]

insert butt joke here about Uranus

[crude vapor]

Never fails to make me chuckle

[frozen kestrel]

Thank you. This model is a godsend. I am, however, going to have to break it (so the turrets and stuff can rotate), since it's currently all one solid mesh.

[eternal veldt]

Did you import into blender the obj or stl file?

[frozen kestrel]

The .obj

[eternal veldt]

Check your blender screen, the parts should be loose

the collection specifically

[frozen kestrel]

There's only materials in the collection

[eternal veldt]

Ah, I know why. Give me a minute.

Try this version.

[frozen kestrel]

Noice

[frozen kestrel]

It begins...

[frozen kestrel]

Yeah, I'm definitely going to need to work on my own model of Bismarck...

[frozen kestrel]

Sorry to ask this of you, but do you have the models of the rest of the Denmark Strait ships (Hood, Prince of Wales, and Prinz Eugen)?

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1743663452739059893

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1743774025816379579

[solid mango]

[eternal veldt]

Those in WoWS are grossly inaccurate to the timeframe you are doing.

[frozen kestrel]

Which ones are?

[eternal veldt]

Prinz Eugen and (King George V).

Hood's also off, but significantly less compared to these two.

[runic ermine]

When I go to the memorial center again I'll be sure to get a picture of the HMCS Peterborough's bell

[frozen kestrel]

I might be able to edit some of the inaccuracies out of the models

The plan is to mostly use them as scene props, not meant to be seen up close

[worn ember]

maybe i'm in the spectrum

i went to a museum just to see if a P-47 could take off from a carrier

i'm still arguing about it

[desert agate]

Take off? Yes

Land?

No

[worn ember]

at least i saw some cool stuff

no idea how that got there

the sabre face is real

[remote monolith]

front facing Spinosaurus from Sereno's 2022 paper

misc musculatures from the same paper

[sweet forum]

anyone from canada?

[remote monolith]

huge Sponges https://www.sci.news/paleontology/cyathophycus-balori-12588.html

Carboniferous period

[autumn sorrel]

Ah, LP is talking shit again

[wintry moat]

LP?

[remote monolith]

so you've heard of this https://fxtwitter.com/PrezDCS/status/1743756267959587040

[eternal veldt]

@frozen kestrel

[autumn sorrel]

Pretty much, have to sit through 1 and a half hr listen to him ranting without actually learning how stealth work and somehow it still feel less than situations room video about the shot down F-117

[remote monolith]

you'd think people would realize the simple fact that this is a fucking dolphin but no

and worst thing is that Ichthyosaurs didn't even make it to the asteroid impact

they're all gone long before

[autumn sorrel]

Whale carcass = Nessie

[autumn sorrel]

Oh right, almost forgot about this

Italian sub are design for Med so they cannot dive deep plus the clearer water often make spotting bigger sub easier, what was the Italian Navy solution to camo their sub from being spotted?

[chilly osprey]

How deep you can dive really depends on the where in the Med

But after the particularly heavy losses of the first month, they did a series of tests with their old H-class boats to try and see what would be the most effective camo scheme.

Though bear in mind, because they realized that trying to camouflage a submarine underwater (which is what the pre-war scheme was based on) was counterproductive, this was all focused on trying to make them harder to spot on the surface (where a WWII submersible spent the vast majority of their time and usually attacked from).

A standardized scheme was issued on 3 January 1941, which called for subs to be painted with a blue-grey base paint with dicing in a neutral (brown) shade (though the dicing was done differently between the major commands at Taranto and La Spezia).

I'm December 1941, this was modified to include a lighter blue-grey base on the decks, and a darker grey on the tops of the bulges, in an effort to make it somewhat harder to spot a submerged boat from the air.

This scheme remained in use up to the armistice, though units outside of the Mediterranean sometimes experimented with non-standard schemes.

[cunning salmon]

https://maritime-executive.com/article/decorated-battleship-new-jersey-set-for-10m-repairs-during-dry-docking

[frozen kestrel]

Thanks, this should also help me model that custom KGV-class I wanted to make

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDK5JwSPFlU

[cinder escarp]

Only if on minimum fuel and with no payload, and even then that's a solid maybe. P-47s have a... substantial takeoff roll and less than amazing power:weight ratio.

To be less polite, they're fat fucks.

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1744081561169907849

[frozen kestrel]

Other than the AA mounts on Bruno and Caesar, what do I need to get rid of on Prinz Eugen? (Going for a more Azur Lane-accurate look here)

[eternal veldt]

The single shielded 37mm guns and the AA directors that are stuck on needs to be changed. Again, like I said, there is a lot to be changed, and I'd personally not bother with it.

[frozen kestrel]

I'll probably end up fixing it when I actually model her

[frozen kestrel]

Broke Eugen's model so her guns can actually be positioned

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54nFNSZlhvg

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1744417823567303048

[frozen kestrel]

Hyper-specific question, but anyone know the minimum and maximum elevations of Prinz Eugen and Bismarck's guns?

[thick scarab]

Mfer on twitter called "All Quiet on the Western front" war fiction

So I doxxed and shot him dead

[desert agate]

What

[ivory ridge]

[shrewd pecan]

excuse me?

[mental tapir]

[spiral cedar]

Should be on NavWeaps. Have you tried looking there?

[spiral cedar]

Are you okay? Do you need to spend some time outside perhaps?

[shy grail]

The characters in “All Quiet on the Western front” aren’t real people are they? But it’s based on Remarque’s experience IIRC

[runic ermine]

Yes

[frozen kestrel]

couldn't open my browser because Blender was being a twat

[spiral cedar]

Understandable

[frozen kestrel]

Turret Anton can now traverse and elevate it's guns

[wintry moat]

Nice

Looks cool

[frozen kestrel]

Now with darker shadows

[spiral cedar]

Gun weights (with breech)

US 5"/38 Mark 12 - 4113 lbs 

UK 4.5"/45 Mark III - 6304 lbs

JPN 12.7cm/40 Type 89 - 6800 lbs

FR 130mm/45 Model 1932 - 8400 lbs

IT 120mm/50 OTO Model 1933 - 12240 lbs

IT 135mm/45 Model 1938 - 14401 lbs

GER 12.7cm/45 SK C/34 - 8036 lbs

wtf why is the US one so drastically lighter than everyone else's

Looking here at the guns that are in the general "weight class" of ~5 inch DP guns, though obviously some of the ones listed aren't DP in reality because the navies using them never fitted them to DP mounts (mostly the Italian and German ones)

[ivory ridge]

What's stalinium for americans

Freeium

[glass trail]

uranium

[manic latch]

Patriotonium

[grave ravine]

STS

[glass trail]

or rather, USAnium

[wintry moat]

Rooseveltium

[ivory ridge]

[strong plank]

Iron

BIW baby

[spiral cedar]

Ah, I think I figured it out. I think the 5"/38 with the complete housing is closer to 8062 lbs. That may or may not include some stuff not listed for other guns but is more within the range

[shy grail]

Ah I see, think I read it wrongly

[sudden arrow]

People are redirecting me all over and over

I've been to private musem in Moscow yesterday, there were some interesting things

Some shit on T10 base

There were lots of old cars too, but it's better for you guys to move to #871015577349664829 to look over all of them... or half

(Joseph Stalin's bulletproof ZiS 115)

[eternal veldt]

Looks like the object 757.

[sudden arrow]

Good.

[autumn sorrel]

Story behind this?

[manic latch]

My dungeon

[eternal veldt]

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/object-757.htm tanks aren't my forte, sadly.

[runic ermine]

Very cool

Literally

[sudden arrow]

I'll drive to tank musem in Kubinka soon

There will be some cool stuff, too

"Some"

IS-7 and object 279 for sure.

[sudden arrow]

There was a IS-3, but my phone died to frost before I took a shot

[sudden arrow]

Died right after 2C7 "Pion"

[runic ermine]

some people think that it saw action during ww2

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1744513606354452895

[cunning salmon]

https://simpleflying.com/f-18-fighter-jet-history/

[mental tapir]

U-81 bombed and sunk 80 years ago today

Ark Royal avenged

[runic ermine]

in Pula, Croatia

speaking of Croatia, they and Japan were almost as comically evil, if not more comically evil than Germany during ww2

[ivory ridge]

it wasnt even a country in ww2

plus Pula was italian at the time

[chilly osprey]

Well, technically Croatia did exist

But as a protectorate/puppet state of the Axis powers

After the conquest of Yugoslavia

Though Pola/Pula was not included in its territories

[runic ermine]

I know and it was called Pola but by 1945 it was annexed by Croatia after operation axis

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1744934805785997366

[remote monolith]

https://www.sci.news/paleontology/sidersaura-marae-12594.html

relatively small Sauropod

as in, its only 4 times the weight of the average elephant

[maiden citrus]

Smolopod

[fierce sparrow]

https://fxtwitter.com/RyszardJonski/status/1744993491493462054

[autumn sorrel]

I need your help a bit

Just watch a clip on fb about T-rex docu, look really good and look recently but there is no name(Typical FB repost)

There is a part about an old T-rex male that brought down a Triceratop but got his left leg severely wounded and while he try to clean it in a stream, he met another T-rex female.

Do you happen to recognize that docu?

[remote monolith]

its prehistoric planet

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5gXify4scA

[pallid grove]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftxm-9MliDI I'm sure this has been posted here before, but linking as I love this story.

[unborn canopy]

Surprised she’s so

Sleepy constantly

You wouldn’t expect a destroyer to survived 4 bombs but then again 60kg isn’t much

[eternal veldt]

Rather unfortunately a matter of "II" ships having their personalities from their old namesake carried over.

Not like DD-459 is particularly sleepy either with her actions at Guadalcanal.

[unborn canopy]

I mean I don’t mind a non-lemon Essex

[eternal veldt]

I personally don't like the lemon meme of Essex, if you ask me.

[unborn canopy]

Some of the ship personalities don’t make sense

[unborn canopy]

I don’t get it either

[eternal veldt]

People see Enterprise mentioned all the time in her voice lines, and how she is overshadowed by her - Therefore, it automatically means jealousy and bullying

[unborn canopy]

Essex class was a good class of CVs

[eternal veldt]

Enterprise is said to hate lemons in a collaborative game, so that evolved to the lemon meme. It's just a bunch of things strapped together to the funny face of Essex and things snowballed from there.

[unborn canopy]

First unrestrained class by the US

I mean we have poi kai

Isn’t poi from kansen

Or is it kantai

Wait nvm kansen is shipgirl iirc

[eternal veldt]

poi is a suffix spoken frequently by the Kantai Collection Yuudachi, yes.

AL players see Yuudachi in game, and therefore instantly referred to her as poi.

I don't like Yuudachi myself, in light of the war crimes she committed in her career.

[unborn canopy]

Most of Japan had an interesting time

[eternal veldt]

Some have a cleaner record than others.

Inazuma and Ikazuchi, for example.

[unborn canopy]

What war crime did she commit?

[eternal veldt]

Executing hors de combat (survivors incapable of fighting back).

[unborn canopy]

Ahh

Wondering since wiki only mentions her being fired upon after hoisting a white flag

[eternal veldt]

Though outgunned, Little opened fire on enemy destroyers, Yūdachi, Hatsuyuki and Murakumo, but took direct hits from salvos which left her helpless and ablaze by 0115. Gregory suffered the same fate. The Japanese, to assure their kill, steamed between the two stricken ships firing shells and strafing survivors. Gregory sank stern first about 0140. Little went down on an even keel about two hours later.

[unborn canopy]

Ouch

[eternal veldt]

The white flag thing is subjective; some argue that a white sail was hoisted to get the ship maneuvering after her machinery was taken out. The US interprets the sail as a flag of surrender, and was rightly angry when said ship continued to open fire.

[unborn canopy]

Huh

[eternal veldt]

and sails on a destroyer are not unheard of - even destroyers in the US navy had them on a destroyer at one point.

[unborn canopy]

Makes sense, if your engines died

[eternal veldt]

Yes, but a white piece of textile is also interpeted as a sign of peace and parley.

[unborn canopy]

War is complicated

[eternal veldt]

If the intention is to raise the white sail so that the enemy would lower their guard and subsequently take advantage of them, then it is considered as perfidy - a war crime.

Hence why Portland's CO remark upon seeing the stricken but still floating Yudachi when daylight is finally approaching was "sink that S.O.B."

[unborn canopy]

Yeah

[pallid grove]

If you're concerned with war crimes, don't look into Japan's Division 731

[eternal veldt]

I am very much aware of the atrocities of Division 731.

[unborn canopy]

I already know

[eternal veldt]

The Nanking Massacre alone stands testimony to the atrocities commited by the Imperial Japanese Army - and that is only one of the countless incidents that happened in China and elsewhere.

[unborn canopy]

They did many things, though apparently it helped further medical research, which I doubt

Though nobody is clean

[eternal veldt]

This isn't the "who is terrible" olympics.

[unborn canopy]

The US bombed a non-target submarine, Germans had their thing, idk what the brits did, the soviets are infamous

[eternal veldt]

The Japanese mandate is to conquer China seeing it as exploitable in their continental policy - That's it, Imperialism.

The Allied cause is to halt such operations.

If we go the way of the genocide olympics, then there is much to talk about for each nation.

[unborn canopy]

Given how Japan was treated at Versailles not entirely surprised + what they had in mind since pre-ww1

[pallid grove]

Agreed, and if there were equivalent groups within the US military we'll probably never know about it since it's typically only the loser of a war that gets tried for war crimes

[eternal veldt]

That's not how it works - the US prosecuted members that commited war crimes.

[unborn canopy]

Doesn’t the US not abide by the ICC or whatever the wartime version is?

They have their own thing or something

[eternal veldt]

or at the very least, the US was ready to admit it, when it comes to unrestricted submarine warfare.

[unborn canopy]

Not the 3 B17 pilots of the laconia incident

They were given medals

[eternal veldt]

I agree with the general statement that there are members commiting war crimes on both sides - some are not persecuted even on the Axis side.

[pallid grove]

The US will work with the ICC, but isn't bound to it

[eternal veldt]

Just saying this usually devolves into "the Allies are equally as bad as the Axis because they also commited war crimes".

[unborn canopy]

Did anyone from Japan get tried? I’ve never heard of the IJN equivalent to the Nuremberg trials

[eternal veldt]

Hideki Tojo was quite literally tried at Nuremberg Tokyo and sentenced to death.

There is a somewhat funny footage of Tojo getting his head slapped in court.

https://youtu.be/WoEb03tzwxs

[unborn canopy]

Was anyone from Italy tried?

Since Italy played a much smaller role

[runic ermine]

Also there was a Japanese general who was a cannibal

[runic ermine]

And switched sides, didn't commit as many war crimes

[eternal veldt]

sorry, not Nuremberg. International Military Tribunal for the Far East.

[unborn canopy]

Huh neat

[eternal veldt]

so basically, Tokyo Trials.

[pallid grove]

There's no question that more war crimes were prosecuted by the Axis, one only needs to look at Auschwitz or the Japanese prison camps to know that

Also, joygirls.

[runic ermine]

Or the Croatian children camps

Ante Pavelic was messed up

[unborn canopy]

What?

[eternal veldt]

I don't recall hearing anything of the sort for Italy, unfortunately.

[pallid grove]

What. That's one I hadn't heard of. A lof of smaller countries I'm not familiar with the history of.

[runic ermine]

Confort women

[pallid grove]

Right, that was the term used, sorry

[eternal veldt]

That one is still a hot topic and related to politics, unfortunately.

[unborn canopy]

Moving on from war crimes, did the Americans ever experiment with the Japanese type 93s?

[eternal veldt]

same with the mentioned Nanking with active efforts to revision the events.

[unborn canopy]

Or fire the type 94 cannon?

[runic ermine]

Croatia had 2 concentration camps specifically designed for children https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastrebarsko_children's_camp#:~:text=The Jastrebarsko children's camp held,)%2C%20during%20World%20War%20II.

[autumn sorrel]

Either they got lynched by public mob like Mussolini or get normal jail time if they weren't complicit in the holocaust

[eternal veldt]

The US had a technical mission to Japan post-war.

[runic ermine]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stara_Gradiška_concentration_camp

[runic ermine]

Operation Downfall?

[eternal veldt]

https://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ Reports/USNTMJ_toc.htm

[unborn canopy]

As a Chinese person we’re not really taught about nanking

[eternal veldt]

No, I refer to a technical mission - They collected data on Japanese equipment and interrogated personnel that operated them.

Or at least, what remained of their data, as Japan burnt the more sensitive documents before the US mission arrived.

[unborn canopy]

What was the result?

[autumn sorrel]

US Army and RAF did test on a lot of late war IJA aircraft

At least the one they captured in Singapore and Philippine

[unborn canopy]

Given they tried sank an SSV (or is it SSCVL) to hide it not entirely surprised

[eternal veldt]

I don't believe they are fired per se - they inspected the items, asked the crew, and compiled a report.

[runic ermine]

Also Serbs were killed en mass, a member of the SS (forget who specifically) said quote: "the Ustaše have gone mad"

[unborn canopy]

Damnit

[eternal veldt]

The US are aware of the Type 93's capabilities already by mid-war, however.

[unborn canopy]

I wanted to hear 460mm go brrrrr

[unborn canopy]

Mark 14 gaming

[autumn sorrel]

Didn't they still guess the range wrong tho?

[pallid grove]

I've seen the last-remaining numbers-matching Zero at one of my local air museums; it was used for a lot of the research into the capabilities of the Zero during WW2 before being sold to the museum for safe keeping

[unborn canopy]

They didn’t believe it existed when they first heard of the type 93

[runic ermine]

Also when an Italian journalist asked Pavelic what he would do if the Serbs rebelled he replied "Then I will kill all Serbs"

[pallid grove]

oof

[eternal veldt]

It's complacency and disbelief, I think.

The same kind of bullshit that led to the garbage that is the original Mark 14.

[unborn canopy]

I mean given how successful the mark 14 was

[autumn sorrel]

They know Oxygen torp exist but they don't believe that IJN can make a torp that large and have that much of range

[eternal veldt]

"There is no way the Mark 14 doesn't work, skill issue"

[pallid grove]

Yeah, the mk 14 was absolute garbage

[eternal veldt]

"There is no way Japan can invent a torpedo with such long range"

"There is no way Japan is good at night fighting, they don't even have radar"

Savo.jpg

[autumn sorrel]

Tbf, it was BuOrd and American state politic bs

[unborn canopy]

They more don’t believe that the japs could make it work, as they saw them as inferior (the Japanese) and that if the Americans/british couldn’t do it they couldn’t)

The design is British but the British design had over heating issues iirc

[runic ermine]

I remember the scene from kantai collection saying how the type 93 is superior because it's an oxygen torpedo

That's false I think

[eternal veldt]

Oxygen torpedoes leave less of a trail, yes.

[unborn canopy]

It’s oxygen meaning it travels faster and further due to how combustion engines work

[eternal veldt]

Compared to compressed air/carbon dioxide ones.

[autumn sorrel]

Something along that line, yeah. They have a idea of how hard to develop and make those type of torp from the Brit so they guess that even if IJN have it, it can't be that dangerous

[runic ermine]

Yeah but they can make torpedo juice with them lol

[unborn canopy]

They also had a shimose payload which was quite potent

[eternal veldt]

Japan doesn't need booze

[pallid grove]

Racism certainly played a part in US readiness in the early war, but we learned really quickly that the Japanese tech was far better than we gave them credit for

[unborn canopy]

Though they did have a habit of exploding

[eternal veldt]

All you're getting is a good beating by your superior to maintain your discipline

[unborn canopy]

Zero go brrrrr

[runic ermine]

Tanks were shit tho

[eternal veldt]

I'm sure that will not affect the soldier's mentality at all.

[unborn canopy]

You’re an island nation, you need BOTE

[autumn sorrel]

inb4 suicide lead to the lost of Mutsu

[unborn canopy]

It’s why the brits were the king of the sea for so long

[runic ermine]

You also forgot the who "superior race tho those who surrender thing"

[eternal veldt]

Japan has a fundamental issue of army and navy fighting each other since the early 20th century.

[pallid grove]

I don't know that I've ever actually read anything about the JP tanks during WW2. I know they exist, what were some of the models?

[eternal veldt]

The Army believes that Russia would be the hypothetical enemy in light of the continental policy and the wake of the Russo-Japanese war, so focus should be devoted there.

[unborn canopy]

They’re worse or on par with italys

[autumn sorrel]

And it was very intentionally by the Imperial family, they can't overthrown you if they too busy killing each other

[eternal veldt]

The Navy, on the other hand, believes that the US would become the hypothetical enemy as they are an island nation, and therefore resources shoud be devoted there instead.

[unborn canopy]

Very thin armour and anaemic guns

[unborn canopy]

Given the quality of the Russian/Soviet army….

[runic ermine]

Type 95 Hago, Type 97 Chi ha, Chi ha Kai, ho ni

[unborn canopy]

And navy at that

[eternal veldt]

I don't know about you, but I would not want to face a fucking T-34-85 with a Type 97 Chi Ha.

or god forbid, IS-3s.

[autumn sorrel]

Which was a very much fit to their circumstance, when they need light and mobile tanks against opponent have little to no anti tank capabilities, it isn't their tank suck but they are just obsolete by ww2

[pallid grove]

Hell, the German Panzers didn't want to fight T-34s

[unborn canopy]

True, I forgot about China/korea being part of IJ

[autumn sorrel]

This myth again

[eternal veldt]

The Russian Pacific Fleet, on the other hand, that one is yikes - at least if Russia wants to invade Hokkaido in an amphibious assault.

[autumn sorrel]

Fleet? What fleet?

[unborn canopy]

Russia had a pacific fleet?

You mean coral reef?

[pallid grove]

More that they were far more capable than Germany expected than willingness to fight them

[runic ermine]

Lmao. 122mm of pure boom

[eternal veldt]

Sorry, not even T-34-85s if the war drags on any longer

[unborn canopy]

As a WT player IS3s give me PTSD

[eternal veldt]

T-44s

[unborn canopy]

NO

[eternal veldt]

That said though, per my understanding, the offensive in Manchukuo by Russia was overextended.

Much of the railways connecting the front was sabotaged, and some only had one railway track going back and forth.

[unborn canopy]

Russian tactics

Finest in the world

[eternal veldt]

Logistics, if Russia continues to push any further, would be difficult, and it was argued that Japan fought the fighting retreat.

[autumn sorrel]

Nah, just logistic

[unborn canopy]

Idk the Russian tactic is just

[pallid grove]

Logistics in Russia have seemingly always been a problem. That said, supply lines on the German side weren't that much better, if at all

[unborn canopy]

[eternal veldt]

Amateurs talk tactics

The real deal is logistics

[autumn sorrel]

Their tactic and operation level planning late ww2 actually very scary

[eternal veldt]

You can have the best fighting vehicle in the world, and you're going to lose it if the parts are not coming in.

[unborn canopy]

I mean they have a massive country so logistics wise nightmare

[eternal veldt]

Russia is very much competent at the time and not just sending waves of cannon fodder in to die, thank you.

[autumn sorrel]

Which is why lend lease truck was so important for deep battle

[eternal veldt]

The consequences of Company of Heroes 2

[autumn sorrel]

Consequence of Hollywood movie trope

[eternal veldt]

Ah yes

[unborn canopy]

[eternal veldt]

ill-intentioned people at the entrance, my favourite movie

[pallid grove]

The US Interstate Highway system was actually implemented post-war to help facilitate combat in the possibility of an invasion of the mainland

[pallid grove]

Stalin (Lenin? Don't remember) killing all of his generals didn't help

[unborn canopy]

Wasn’t the autobahn built for panzers to go speedy across Germany

[unborn canopy]

That would’ve been stalin

[pallid grove]

It wouldn't surprise me, I know Ike got the idea from Germany

[autumn sorrel]

Let not forget, they maintain Guard formation, who are the main punch that enable gap in enemy line

[eternal veldt]

You know what I find funny, Raseiniai is exactly what a human wave is

....against a lone KV-1/KV-2.

[grave ravine]

This is one of those spots where we maybe shouldn't overstate things, by the end of the war somewhere between a quarter to a third of Soviet trucks were from lend leased, which is really important but it's also not "all the trucks"

Arguably more important is actually the lend lease provision of railroad equipment, which by the end of the war was a majority of what the Soviets were operating

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, should have graph somewhere about the percentage of lend lease trucks overtime

[pallid grove]

One of the keys to US success was overall top-down leadership, with lower-level officers and sergeants having far more autonomy over their unit than in many other countries. A LT/sergeant being told "Here's your goal, here's what you have, figure out how to do it" lends itself to a unit harder to anticipate than one where a major or other upper brass telling them HOW to do the job

My understanding is the German army followed the same doctrine, leading to a lot of their successes

[grave ravine]

WRT Yudachi, it's also clear that she was a lot less impactful at Guadalcanal than some older scholarship supposed

[eternal veldt]

Embellishments will remain embellishments, unfortunately. Just like Piorun.

[grave ravine]

Laffey's role also gets overstated, with people mostly just ignoring the other 3 van destroyers

[autumn sorrel]

You are just describing how it is better to allow lower level officer to have their own initiative than follow a rigid command structure. Even that one require you to train cadre of officer corps that can actually use their head and not afraid to change to adapt.

[pallid grove]

Agreed

[autumn sorrel]

I think, what you should focus more, is about the culture of the Army, Red Army also allow free thinking to a certain degree but any decision of regiment above must follow a pre battle plan

[eternal veldt]

http://militera.lib.ru/regulations/russr/1942_bup/02.html ah, there we go, on the "human wave" thing earlier. Soviets bad.

[autumn sorrel]

As for the German, their success is less of their doctrine being superior but more of how flexible they can be to adapt to the battlefield and how much they can exploit their enemy rigid command structure.

[tough quail]

who did it

ive got my bat

[autumn sorrel]

Everybody seem to forget that Soviet infantry tactic wasn't just throw men in a line but actual combat experience from Imperial Russian Army, Russian Civil War and Spain Civil War combined.

[autumn sorrel]

I don't think there isn't anyone here still believe in that myth, at least I hope so

[eternal veldt]

Luckily, no one. Just someone mentioning the quality of Soviet Army circa 1945.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FQ7pXV6LyU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUHNedEdG1A

[tight violet]

I heard the nk-12 had more of its power directed into jet thrust than the usual turboprop, does that explain part of the bear’s jet speeds?

[runic ermine]

Yeah that happening with the Soviets is heavily exaggerated and with the modern russian army I couldn't find any evidence of it

[frozen kestrel]

So, I'm aware this is a really dumb question but it's part of something I'm doing. How could I plausibly have an F-22 Raptor land on/ take off from a Lexington-class aircraft carrier?

I know the landing gear would need to be significantly strengthened, but what other criteria would there be?

[tough quail]

landing you break out the nets and pray, takeoff you pretty much just dont

more a problem with the carrier than the jet for the latter

[frozen kestrel]

What would the problem with the carrier be? Aside from the afterburners igniting the deck (The deck should be an easy enough/ realistic fix)

[chilly osprey]

The deck also has to be structurally up to the task of supporting the landing of the aircraft, which are much larger and heavier than aircraft of the interwar era and WWII.

And then there's also the entire issue of how they take off.

You'd have to modify the F-22 to be catapult-able, and then install catapults of sufficient strength on the Lexington - which likely is not physically possible.

[frozen kestrel]

I do plan on converting the flight deck to asphalt (and adding more support structures beneath said flight deck).

Catapult could be an issue, but I only planned on having a maximum of two on it, though I could swap out one of the F-22's for an F-35, which wouldn't be as much of an issue due to its VTOL capabilities. If I swapped it for an F-14 or F-15, that'd be an even bigger problem.

[strong plank]

Yeah the red army’s decision-making structure was incredibly rigid and inflexible

One of the things I love about the US’ old AirLand Battle doctrine is that the US knew this and actively worked to exploit it

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA202888.pdf

[runic ermine]

Best summed up like this

[strong plank]

No not really

AirLand was a pretty specific doctrine

[runic ermine]

Yeah I guess I cut out a few important details

[strong plank]

more like

a vast generalization that is also factually wrong

[runic ermine]

Yeah

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGOwS7OqpGc

[unkempt sedge]

https://youtu.be/mtQ8gEY0K-g?si=ZqsKnpSUN6vthqRZ

[remote monolith]

this is one of those images that gets trotted out in Quora repeatedly with a full essay saying nonsense backing it up

[eternal veldt]

Exhibit A: plasmatorch

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1745193167979176323

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1745261181101572103

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1745125963854229533

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1744942062359756877

[desert agate]

I went to the UN cemetery in Busan

[ivory ridge]

TIL the modern british 4.5in gun can't do any AA anymore

They removed the proxy fuses from service a while ago

[strong plank]

probably not much use for it these days

as funny as it'd be to watch

[ivory ridge]

...no use in a time where the drone threat keeps rising?

What

The american DDGs in the red sea are using their guns too for the drones

[grave ravine]

AFAIK they still have proxy HE, its that the FCS isnt set up to deal with air targets anymore

the software having been discontinued in like the 90s

[strong plank]

not gun-based air defense in general

but I know at least the Darings have 30mm that'd probably be more effective against drones than a 4.5in

[ivory ridge]

That's definitely a take

[strong plank]

no unde

I meant I wasn't saying that about gun-based aa

just the 4.5in in particular

I just fucked up the phrasing lol

[grave ravine]

ehhh

the 30mm lacks complex FCS

and is going to be significantly more range limited than the 4.5"

The 30mm at the end of the day is mainly there for small boat defense

[strong plank]

obv gun-based aa is vital when it comes to drones, I'm just not sure if a 113mm is going to be better at the role than 20-30-40mm options

[ivory ridge]

I mean it fires faster than the american 5in and that one is doing fine

[strong plank]

when it comes to drones, I feel like measures like CIWS would be more effective

but I haven't really sat down to read up on what folks are saying on that

[ivory ridge]

For self defense, but the higher caliber better range allows some sort of escort capabilities

It's not like most of these drones are being fired at the warships themselves

[grave ravine]

range also allows you to defend against more targets by increasing the time you have to engage

[ivory ridge]

Also i can't find the twitter comment i just read but i think it said they just didn't have AA rounds anymore

[grave ravine]

gun based CIWS can engage drones, but again its got the same range limitation as the 30mm small boat guns (unless we are talking about oto 76mm systems)

[strong plank]

I know the USN's looking at Mk38 Mod 4 to try and leverage that against uavs

[ivory ridge]

Oto 76 my beloved

[strong plank]

bc the current mk38s are pretty limited in their elevation

[grave ravine]

while it could be useful, I think thats probably not an urgent need given how effective KEETs been at swatting drones

[ivory ridge]

I wish this had 4 76 and not 3

[strong plank]

we really just need to return to ww2 40mm spam

but with modern hardware

[ivory ridge]

Also 3 30mm which is weird cuz the rear one just covers one side

Unlike the 76 which is centerline

[grave ravine]

Someone over on Drach's server was saying that its the FCS, and per navweaps modern 4.5" shells still have a programmable fuse including proximity

[ivory ridge]

[junior trench]

proxy doesn't always cut it on some drone targets

which is why the USN also has the funny giant AHEAD-style round~~ in the works~~

[grave ravine]

are you talking about KE-ET?

[junior trench]

are there any other rounds which fit that description

[grave ravine]

not that I know of, but I wouldn't know

but KE-ETs been in service for a while

[fierce sparrow]

https://vxtwitter.com/2805662/status/1745341741727957443

[runic ermine]

Opinions on the ross rifle?

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpx2pcdmVIA

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1745464202834395242

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2024/01/11/first-constellation-frigate-delayed-at-least-a-year-schedule-assessment-ongoing

[shy grail]

The new Rheinmetall KEET round?

[wild tendon]

why did battleships go from double to triple turrets?

like I guess it's cause it's more efficient

but by that logic why not quadruple turrets?

hm but ig the battle of the Denmark Strait kinda showed the flaws of quadruple turrets with maintenance

I'm not familiar with the french navies though

how did the Richelieu-class fare?

oh and the Dunkerque-class, I forgot about those

[pine hull]

Efficiency, you can fit more guns for the same amount of space/weight if you use triple turrets

[pine hull]

Beam limitations, quadruple turrets are very wide and if for example you are the US you need to design your ships to be thinner than the Panama Canal

[wild tendon]

beam is the width of a ship, right?

[pine hull]

Yes

[wild tendon]

and why the US?

[pine hull]

The US owned the Panama Canal and used it to transfer their ships between pacific and Atlantic fleets but the Panama Canal was only 110 feet wide

There’s also concerns about survivability, if you have quadruple turrets and one gets taken out then you lose 4 guns instead of 2 or 3

[strong plank]

yeah so to put that in perspective

[wild tendon]

hm I see

so it's like a jack of all trades kinda thing

[strong plank]

the Iowas were basically the maximum width the US could squeeze into a battleship

literally had a single foot of clearance on each side when transiting the canal

[pine hull]

France found a way around this by subdividing the turrets with an armored wall in the middle so a quadruple turret would be like two double turrets next to each other

[shy grail]

Tbf same with the North Carolinas and South Dakotas

[wild tendon]

I saw a video of the iowa turrets firing

and it seems like each gun is like divided into compartments?

[shy grail]

You need to armoured bulkhead in between to avoid the other half getting knocked out

[pine hull]

I’m not sure what the interior of the US turrets are like, it’s been years since I’ve been in one and that wasn’t an Iowa class

[wild tendon]

there's a surprising amount of redundancy in ships

[shy grail]

Prince of Wales wasn’t ready yet, so a triple turret would have failed anyways according to the same standard

[wild tendon]

https://youtu.be/MTW_xpK-Twc?si=1_l9xaMY1LuwTwox

sound warning

[shy grail]

Main problem with Richelieu class guns was that they need delay coils, otherwise dispersion went to 1 k + yards

That needed time to be tested

[pine hull]

Here’s Iowa’s turret, it doesn’t look subdivided

[spiral cedar]

Yes, US battleship turrets are subdivided into flashtight compartments. The difference with the French battleship quads is the central bulkhead is an armor bulkhead 50mm thick, rather than the thin metal of a flashtight bulkhead. A flashtight bulkhead will stop a flash of flame from propagating further but won't stop an exploding shell or bomb inside

[wild tendon]

delay coils?

[wild tendon]

ic

thank you for the elaboration

[spiral cedar]

It might have been 40mm on Dunk and 50mm on Richy

But yeah, when Tennessee's turret roof was penetrated by a dud Japanese bomb, the bomb's innards burned but only affected one gun since the other two compartments remained flashtight

Had it been able to detonate properly the flashtight bulkheads would have been pierced of course

[shy grail]

Normally the guns in the turret all fire at the same time, but the shells might affect each other because of turbulence and blast effects, so you delay the one/ two guns firing slightly to reduce said effects

[pine hull]

I can’t find a blueprint for the Missouri’s turret but here’s the subdivision for its No. 2 barbet

[strong plank]

they've got bulkheads yea

[spiral cedar]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/515583624083406848/884637105052082187/image0.jpg?ex=65af2e81&is=659cb981&hm=7bfc78cc4c3b7ea0093a99cbfcd73c9db07a2ef41c9c3e2bdceb640ebfca27e5&

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/515583624083406848/884636838797639680/image0.png?ex=65af2e42&is=659cb942&hm=1432ea2d26d84b1956a6b086618e6b611d51a5cd7864124bd1d07e164c376cae&

[grave ravine]

A lot of ships needed delay coils, there isn't really anything inherently wrong with that

For example the early triple turrets on the standards were notoriously inaccurate before they got delay coils

[shy grail]

As I said, needing delay coils takes time, which immensely saps the usability of your ship when it is brand new and commissioned, which would negate when it is most powerful (in comparison to other ships). I’d much rather have QEs that can 6 months from commission that are able to snipe Germans that have to deal with delay coils shenanigans. A fault of many ships, sure, but a problematic one

And in Richelieu’s case herself was shot by Barham and Royal Oak and she struggled to hit them due to horrific dispersion. The fact that she hit them at all with testament to her accuracy. The difference in accuracy between the British and French ships was so bad that Royal Resolution with the most accurate gun + turret couldn’t, and even Barham with 6CRH only landed 2 hits on a stationary target. Reverse the situation and Richelieu forces both to withdraw in like 15 min

[remote monolith]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/new-dinosaur-discovery-closest-relative-tyrannosaurus-rex-scientists/story?id=106223261

Tyrannosaurus mcraeensis is a bit mouthful, but it's fine

but some Paleontologists still have doubt about the actual age of the fossil since the size is consistent with the size of an adult rex, which means there's already a 12 meter long predator in North America long before the emergence of rex

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/BAESystemsInc/status/1744752151149044131

[spring briar]

Barham and Resolution

And let’s keep in mind she only fired like 28 shots

[shy grail]

Oh yeah mb

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2024/01/12/navy-helicopter-crashes-into-san-diego-bay-during-training

[fierce sparrow]

https://vxtwitter.com/SergePaiu/status/1745771093938368719

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV0zY-LC85g

[strong mountain]

Kazakhstan greatest country in the world.

[grave ravine]

https://vxtwitter.com/simonharley/status/1745844908403871994?t=qB2N8Wwdd-VFhEHte0jVXQ&s=19

[spiral cedar]

Very unfortunate

[spring briar]

We will carry the torch

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXr9-VVw5QQ

[jagged monolith]

So much was done, yet not enough. RIP.

[last lance]

Explain?

[shrewd pecan]

Kazakh humvee that was donated to Kazakhstan for its UN peacekeeping unit

Equipped with a 9k111 ATGM

[last lance]

Ah so it's donated Humvee

[jagged monolith]

That's 9M113.

One can tell because the tube at the end bulges.

[last lance]

So it's Konkurs

[jagged monolith]

9K111 (I am not saying the name) and 9M113 are of the same general "family", though. The launcher is basically the same for most variants, AFAIK.

[last lance]

I googled it and big mistake

[fierce oracle]

This is laffey | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Laffey_(DD-459) this is laffey || https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Laffey_(DD-724) @crude vapor

[crude vapor]

yes

[somber knoll]

Question. What is the closest SAM system you can think of when you see this lads?

[glass trail]

arent those mrls

[somber knoll]

Looks kinda like Patriot launchers

Patriot MRLs yeah

[somber knoll]

also not specifically SAMs

[grave ravine]

Looks like PAC-3

[frozen kestrel]

Kinda reminds me of the IRIS-T

Kinda resembles it with the eight cells, but there's also some differences

[grave ravine]

Also worth noting Japan uses Patriot

[somber knoll]

This is the closest I can see to it because of the split 4 to 4 launcher arrangement (at least from the looks of it)

wait, Japan did purchased PAC-3 recently

[zealous vine]

[wintry moat]

That

Is cursed

[grave ravine]

Totally going to be in PR8

[ivory ridge]

it's the russian game

not wows

so no it wont

[grave ravine]

Oh ok

[fierce sparrow]

thx WG....

[cunning salmon]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/middle-aged-navy-destroyers-getting-2-0-upgrade-package

[fierce sparrow]

That's a thick Burke...

[frozen kestrel]

The second I find this fucker in game, I am going to sink it

[cunning salmon]

Middle aged guys build lol

[haughty osprey]

Dad Strength

(Electronic Warfare)

[subtle prawn]

Russian server-exclusive apparently, so unless you plan on creating an account there solely for the sake of sinking one, good luck trying to find one

[sacred meadow]

Let the poor girl rest… Stop making her even more overweight 😭

[cunning salmon]

There's nothing that can replace her

Just like BUFF

[shrewd pecan]

blame the navy for taking so long to make a new class of destroyers

[subtle prawn]

Next class not for another couple of years

[median mountain]

is there non paper USS Kearsarge?

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kearsarge_(CV-33)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kearsarge_(LHD-3)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kearsarge_(BB-5)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kearsarge_(1861)

CV-12 was originally going to be named Kearsage but was renamed to hornet

[median mountain]

wtf so many

the paper kearsarge was planned after which real keasarge?

[shrewd pecan]

isn’t the azur lane one the weird battleship-carrier hybrid from WOWs

(I haven’t touched this game in over a year btw)

https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/history/armada-kearsarge/

yeah she is

There’s gonna be people more knowledge on the matter than me here but I don’t think the design amounted as more than anything but a experimental paper design

[strong mountain]

All Research Ships are WoWS Creations

[eternal veldt]

Yes and no.

Kearsarge currently in Azur Lane is a design made by the designer Francis Gibbs, intended to fulfill the societ request for a battleship.

Poor handling of the requirements from the Soviets, inexperience from Gibbs and his perfectionist mindset resulted in a massive behemoth known as Project 1058.1 that the Soviets could not build, nor suitable for US operation.

The name Kearsarge is likely chosen for this ship as Kearsarge does not fit the naming conventions of US BBs, and yet it was used on BB-5. Being an oddity it is, it is perfect for this hybrid battleship.

[grave ravine]

TBF the additions look way bigger from that angle than they actually are

[grave ravine]

The USN likes to reuse the names of successful ships, and the original Kearsarge fought and won one of the most famous naval actions of the American Civil War, it's duel with the Confederate raider Alabama

[sacred meadow]

True

[strong mountain]

Yes that what WoWs based it on. WoWs bases their designs sometimes on paper ship sometimes on "it came to me in a dream" or "Could have * insert the most unlikley scenario here *"

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVpVYXCB6Iw

[desert agate]

Found a boat

[cunning salmon]

Neat

[cunning salmon]

This is at the Seoul Battleship Park right?

[desert agate]

Yep

[cunning salmon]

Recognised the hull number

[last lance]

In January 14 1993 at 11 o'clock (European time) Polish ferry M/F Jan Heweliusz sank. On baord was 28 crew members and 32 passangers, 51 people died, in that all of passangers, only 9 crew members survieved

[frozen kestrel]

The guy running the Battleship New Jersey twitter account posted this a few days back. Not sure what's going on in New Jersey right now, but they're only having vital staff board the ship.

[kindred acorn]

it's being transported for maintnance

[strong plank]

there was a big storm that hit the east coast, and nj's governor issued a state of emergency in preparation

they're back to operations though

thursday they removed the mast and array to prep the ship for transit to drydock

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWHz1_YUQng

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1746552605097009636

[thorny patio]

You know what would be cool?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Shin'yō

Adding this to the game

Would be such a treat

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/OnDisasters/status/1746684521775300667

[strong plank]

https://fxtwitter.com/Commando_Ops/status/1746975727432380457?s=20

[fierce sparrow]

https://vxtwitter.com/VLO225/status/1746638858366730721
https://vxtwitter.com/VLO225/status/1746639301293555789
https://vxtwitter.com/VLO225/status/1746641511763087726

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1747275837114855620

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edyqT1tJfRo

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z70lVDm9_Yo

[frozen kestrel]

Quick Question: How many 16-inch shells does an Iowa-class carry? (WW2 era, to be specific)

[pallid grove]

I found a source that says about 130 rounds per barrel, although when decommissioned Missourri had 1210 shells onboard http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.php#ammonote20

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1747714914448273658

[mental tapir]

USS Misery

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1747765744077566042

[maiden citrus]

based

[spiral cedar]

Popeye just killed ten thousand people

[wintry moat]

they shot first

imagine losing an entire battle group to one ship

and one dude

[maiden citrus]

dual purpose? that gun is single purpose, its purpose is to kill

[wintry moat]

Lol

[maiden citrus]

popeye is truly the one human you can say is built different

[wintry moat]

Agreed

[pliant bay]

Benjamin Franklin sometimes walked around nude in his own house, was even mentioned in Assassins Creed III

[remote monolith]

new dinosaur just dropped https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14772019.2023.2293038

Gandititan, a small Titanosaurian from India

[manic latch]

https://youtu.be/y1Lyty4pE9A?si=NJXQQ0gIQbZPHa4F

[manic latch]

Soviet spy ship near the U.S. aircraft carrier.
"For reasons of concealment, we carried out surveillance from a civilian ship - a medium-sized fishing trawler," recalled Warrant Officer Yury Maksimov, who served in Vietnam in the years 1966-1967. "When planes took off, it was our job to report it. We'd be at our post for three months, and then it was back to base – others would replace us. The Americans knew all about it, but they didn't touch us. That would have risked an international conflict with the USSR and, at the time, Vietnam was quite enough for them to contend with."

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2024/01/18/japan-signs-deal-for-400-tomahawk-land-attack-missiles

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2024/01/18/army-activates-latest-land-based-sm-6-tomahawk-battery-based-on-navy-tech

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tipozpwZbYg

[cinder escarp]

Excuse me, but Mogami had the most successful single torpedo run in WW2.

It's uh, just the ships sunk weren't allied.

[clear scroll]

Lmao

[solid mango]

Love how I just read Mogami and said "ah yep, alr know where this is going"

[blissful imp]

i wondered why in AL minnie has the dullahan skill

having her bow replaced after nearly getting sunk kinda fits

[runic ermine]

Lmfao

[cinder escarp]

Mogami when she sinks the convoy she's supposed to be escorting with one amazing(ly bad) torpedo run.

[drifting delta]

A similar feat was achieved by Axum during Pedestal. Launched 4 torps, landed all of them, hit 3 ships sinking cruiser HMS Cairo, heavily damaging another cruiser and a tanker.

So a more "efficient" salvo hitting the same number of ships with less torpedoes and sinking one ship (one the spot), but for less tonnage sunk.

[chilly osprey]

Worth noting those were quite critical ships too.

The two light cruisers - HMS Cairo, which was sunk, and HMS Nigeria, which was heavily damaged and forced to withdraw - were the only ones in the close escort force for the Pedestal convoy with fighter direction facilities. Efforts to jerry-rig a ship-to-air communication system on other ships failed, and left the convoy's remaining elements unable to coordinate with fighters from then on out.

And the tanker was the SS Ohio, which was the only tanker in the convoy and by far the most critical ship for keeping Malta in the fight.

Between Axum's torpedo salvo and the reaping of the MS, MAS, and E-boats later that night, the convoy that emerged on the other end of the Sicilian Narrows was in a very poor state. It quite literally came down to chance and a poor aerial recognition of some British ships (mistaking a cruiser and destroyer for a battleship and cruiser) that saved the convoy from being wiped out by surface ships that day.

[ivory ridge]

highway of death discourse is always so funny

[maiden citrus]

a reliable source no doubt

[ivory ridge]

truly

[drifting delta]

Had the cruiser fleet been able to make contact with what was left of the convoy they probably would have made short work of it, but a german pilot forgot to do his homework, apparently.

Anyway back to Axum itself, even ignoring how pivotal her action was for the entire offensive, personally I believe it was on par with I-19's.

[manic latch]

There is only one highway

Highway of love for Soyuz

[remote monolith]

you'd think this discourse is dead already

[ivory ridge]

it reanimates itself every couple months

[remote monolith]

unfortunately enough

[drifting delta]

So I was checking on Napoli in wows, and I noticed that her main guns have no date or model, as if they were stock.

So I was wondering if historically the RM really did never design a modern 254mm gun that could have been placed on Napoli? To modernize San Giorgio or something like a coastal gun.

Even just a random napkin scribble that would make WG proud.

I mean, they did design ships with 254mm guns.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78UhWetSfUo

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlr_Py1BpwY

[manic latch]

Soviets looked on 254mm designs

And Napoli's origin design comes from Ansaldo's designs for Soviets

What WG does however like Marco Polo

Instead having Soviet weapons, they go what if Italy owned them and use Italian weapons

So fake guns etc

[ivory ridge]

From what i recall Weegee based Napoli's 254s from British ww1 guns

Yeah

Jesus that's close to 3 years ago

Time flies

[drifting delta]

Yeah but my assumption was that if they make a design for export, they probably have a counterpart design for domestic use, even if they are never gonna use it. So they should make guns for domestic usage too. But I have no idea if this is the truth.

IIRC for example the soviet 16 inch gun was based on an Italian design.

[drifting delta]

I see, so they are based on British designs, but no Italian design.

But I do wonder if the RM went and designed its own at some point.

[ivory ridge]

the italians assumed the soviets would provide their own guns

eg

tashkent

italy didnt use 130mm

but the ship was built in Italy

the soviets then mounted the single 130mm for a while

and then replaced them with her final twins

i dont have a pic of her with single guns so im gonna use the wows version

ah no here it is

[drifting delta]

Makes sense, but for example the design of the Tashkent would be kept and used as basis for the Capitani Romani, but I believe they could have just rolled with Tashkent's design too, obviously slapping 135mm guns or something on it.

Hence why I say they keep export designs for domestic usage.

In case of the cruiser killer/Napoli for Russia this would have happened by replacing the 250mm with 254mm, hence why I'm imagining this more modern 254mm gun they should have designed.

I mean, if you are still producing 254mm shells, might as well...

[ivory ridge]

that's what weegee did for the italian t9 dd lol

it's tashkent hull with the CRs guns and torps

[drifting delta]

Yeah yeah I know lol

[ivory ridge]

but in general i think it's cuz they werent interested

or well, the country wasnt

like Ansaldo was still a private company

not all they did was commissioned by the state

[drifting delta]

Absolutely. That's what I'm thinking too, the navy had no interest in that type of ship. Which is why I'm pointing out at even just a preliminary design to give a model and date to said hypothetical gun.

I mean the San Giorgio was going to get retired any day for sure, but it was still floating and fielding 254mms.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgqVv9ymZc

[frozen kestrel]

(Yet another) Quick Question: What variant of the Bf 109 was most commonly used by the Luftwaffe between 1944 and the end of the war?

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1748353224887652522

[chilly flower]

Primarily the G model, especially the G-6 (over 12,000 total built from February 1943 into 1944)
G-14 arrived in July of 1944 as a standardization for the sake of production as many subvariants had cluttered up production (5,500 built)
There was also the G-10 but it more or less existed to maintain production levels until the K model was ready, though over 2,000 G-10s were built iirc
which would ultimately be more than the K-4, which was at 1,700 when the war ended after starting production in August of 1944

[frozen kestrel]

Thanks. Now I know which variant to model for my project thing.

[merry cosmos]

Germany supply “don’t overcomplicate production” challenge (physically impossible)

[junior trench]

could be worse...

could be the Japanese with 5 different rifle caliber machine gun cartridges

6.5 Arisaka
7.7 Arisaka (rimless)
7.7 Type 87 (.303 British clone)
7.7 Type 89 (7.7 Arisaka... but semi-rimmed)
7.92 Mauser

then again the Germans also have...

20x80 MG FF ammo
20x80 MG FF/M ammo
20x82 MG 151 percussion primed ammo
20x82 MG 151 electrically fuzed ammo
20x138 Flak ammo

[heady sail]

The design of the Tashkent was greatly influenced by the E class British destroyers, it isn't the base for the Capitani Romani class tho.

[heady sail]

The design WG used to design the Napoli, I believe, was only the lines of the hull. I believe they invented the superstructure and the turrets completely. Italy was interested in rechambering the 254/45 into a 203/55 but the works on it were stopped in like 1939.

[heady sail]

The Italians were really interested in the Tashkent. The head of the navy, Cavagnari, in 1939, just before handing it to the Soviets tried to block the transfer, citing the fact that a powerful ship like the Tashkent could be useful in the upcoming times. Mussolini decided to give it to the Soviets anyway because Italy was internationally isolated after the Ethiopian crisis and the Soviets were one of the few to give them raw resources.

[heady sail]

Ansaldo was nationalized and basically was an extension of the design office of the navy. Italy added naval blueprints as part of the payment to resources deals with the Soviet Union

[drifting delta]

Yes you are right, the books I have are very vague and they talk more about the "experience ganied" from the design of the Tashkent, implementing some of its features in the design of the Capitani Romani. Still the two designs are connected.

But my point with the Tashkent was that they kept counterpart export designs, be they interested in them or not, for domestic usage. And the same probably applied to the cruiser killer too.

[drifting delta]

I mean my only graphical reference outside of wows is that deviantart pic by tzoli lol, I saw the looks and the number and gun size and it looked similar enough lol.

I'm just looking for a 254 mm gun after all

[drifting delta]

I knew this but I wasn't sure of when the nationalization happened.

[minor mango]

la victoire en chantant

[heady sail]

You have also to consider the fact that the Italians viewed the Capitani Romani as light cruisers, not as destroyers. Only after the postwar reconstruction they classified them as destroyers. The Tashkent instead was a destroyer leader, a class of ship that really didn't exist in the Italian navy, they had a type of ship that were called explorers, but it's not the same thing, and that designation was suppressed in the late thirties anyway. Consider that at the beginning the Capitani Romani were to have a floatplane and belt armour.

[heady sail]

The Regia Marina was really never interested in the so called "cruiser killers" or "large cruisers".

Up until the Ethiopian crisis the only enemy the Regia Marina envisioned was the French Marine Nationale, so they tried to go 1 on 1 for every capital ship the french built. They both had 7 heavy cruisers, and 12 light cruisers, and they were both content with that. So a cruiser killer would have been a pretty redundant money sink, intended for a niche role. Moreover all Italian heavy cruisers had belt armour, they considered them superior to the french ones, of which only the Algerié had belt armour.

In response to the Dunkerque the Italians briefly looked into battlecruisers armed with 320/44, this commission produced a ship that was basically a mini Littorio, but after the treaty system started to fall down they decided to build full-size battleship, the Littorio.

It's true that they always had a domestic design ready, but often Ansaldo developed different designs which not all were intended for the Regia Marina. For example the Regia Marina wouldn't have built the Tashkents because it simply didn't fit what they needed.

The last class of destroyers the Italian built was the Soldati class, basically an evolution of a line of destroyers that could trace it's root to 500 tons destroyers of the start of the century. That kind of destroyer was already showing its limits and after the experience of the war they decided to design a new destroyer from the ground up, the Comandanti Medaglie d'oro Class. These new destroyers weren't completed during the war, but they were the basis for the Indomito class, the first class of destroyers built in Italy after the war.

[heady sail]

I like Tzoli drawings, but from what I heard he is not always precise. Given that to my knowledge there are no complete drawings of it, any representations will inevitably be biased in on way or another. I believe we only have these data. The one named "Krejser Ansaldo" is the one WG used for the basis of the Napoli, the Projekt 22 is the Russian version of this design, which they later enlarged and became the Projekt 69, the Kronshtadt.

[heady sail]

As I already said the Italian only tried to rebore the 254/45 into the 203/55, but later abandoned the project when the adhered to the second London naval treaty. Before the start of the second world war they tried to stick to the treaties as much as possible, and were only building light cruisers which respected the treaty. Ansaldo tried to sell some projects of heavy cruisers, to the Spanish, which were improvements of the Zara, and were armed with the 203/55 gun. Had the french built the Saint Louis heavy cruisers, the Italian navy would probably have acquired these improved Zara.

[heady sail]

Ansaldo failed in 1932 after the Great Depression, and was acquired by the IRI in 1933. But even before it was partially state owned. The Ansaldo sold the Montecuccoli class cruiser projects to the Soviets in 1933, they served as the basis for the kirov.

[runic ermine]

Japanese logistics must have been rough

[hexed ledge]

any ship geeks have a preferred resource to learn about SMS Emden? I'm just browsing the top votes of the popularity contest and curious why Emden is depicted two ships

[alpine onyx]

There were two SMS Emden during WW1, as the text says. The Dresden class Emden became famous for her raids in the Indian Ocean, with a following engagement that she lost against HMAS Sydney. Adding to her fame, 50 crew members she landed shortly prior to the engagement then took the path back to the Osmanic Empire by foot and train, and most of them survived the trip, which was quite a miracle.
Other SMS Emden was of the Königsberg class, commissioned after the first Emden was sunk, with nowhere near as much of a claim to fame. But two ships with the same name in the same war, hence the twin thingy.

[hexed ledge]

neat

[frozen kestrel]

So which side is which?

[chilly osprey]

I would somewhat amend this by saying that the Capitani were seen as scout cruisers, vs light cruisers. It is worth remembering that this existed as an entirely seperate category in the Regia Marina from before WWI up to 1938. In 1938 that category was abolished, and all the esploratori - which were scout cruisers of larger than 3,000 tons - became light cruisers - while the esploratori leggeri became destroyers.

Prior to 1938, the 'light cruiser' category only started at 6,000 tons, particularly as it took after the original term of 'light armored cruiser', indicating an armored ship that could fight against similar ships at the very least.

The Capitani Romani themselves ended up being pretty good ships, but not ones the RM was really happy with, particularly for the war they found themselves having to fight in the Mediterranean with the British. It's one of the reasons they gave them such low construction priority over other units. They were thoroughbred scouts where use of aircraft would not be viable (namely, the large expanses of the Indian Ocean), but were a lot less viable within the Mediterranean.

[alpine onyx]

Personal opinion, dark side is the first Emden. The crew members that came back were more than happy to have made the near impossible trip back, only then to get sent back into the meat grinder of the front lines (most of them did not survive the war). Of those whose opinion is known (most famously von Mücke, the commander of the group, who'd develop heavily pacifistic view and get targeted by the NS regime), the members of the group were beyond pissed and frustrated.

[heady sail]

Yes, sorry, for brevity's sake I didn't wrote that at the beginning the Capitani Romani were classified as scouts.

I wrote that there was the scout class in the Regia Marina but later it was abolished, but translated "Esploratori" the wrong way, explorers instead of scouts.

By the way thanks, I didn't knew about the discriminating factor for reclassifying a scout in a destroyer or in a light cruiser.

Yes, the Capitani Romani were good ships, but the Regia Marina didn't appreciate them, probably because the purpose they were built for, countering the large french contre-torpilleurs, didn't materialize during the war, probably they would have preferred smaller destroyers for escort.

I know about Operation Scylla, when the Scipione Africano managed to defeat four allied torpedo boats, thanks to her radar and to her speed.

In fact, if you ask me, the fact that they made the Shimakaze a UR, a ship which always had troubles with her engines and had many other problems, and wasn't even that innovative, and didn't absolutely nothing during the war, bar getting killed by an aircraft, and they didn't make the Capitani Romani URs shows how much the Devs are biased towards Italy...

Sorry for the rant

PS Btw the rant didn't want to be demeaning towards the Shimakaze, which I adore, both in game and both in real life, but it simply was to stress how is frustrating to see the Devs waste all the possible Italian URs on SSR, like the Marco Polo, the Impero, and the two Capitani Romani, kinda expecting them to waste the Costanzo Ciano or the Comandanti Medaglie d'Oro on SSR...

PPS Thinking about it, a case about how the Garibaldi didn't already get a retrofit to transform her into a missile cruiser while the Chinese get their third retrofit for a missile destroyer could be also opened...

[heady sail]

Yes, I actually know that they were the only ship of the "Flotta d'evasione" to see the light of the day.

Speaking of which, given that you are an authority regarding Italian ships, can I ask you something?

About the improved destroyers mentioned in the 1939 program, were they to be armed with 120/50mm double purpose guns?

Were they improved Soldati?

Is the "improved Maestrale" the same thing?

The drawing I found was this drawing by Tzoli, which is in Stefano Sappino's book about the Impero aircraft carrier. There is written that the 120/50 DP were actually built, is that true? I can't find anything else in the web.

[chilly osprey]

The improved Maestrale, if you mean the 'Maestrale Potenziato' were something different - an earlier design from 1934 with a heavier focus on gun and AA firepower at the expense of torpedoes.

The destroyers of the original 1939 program (from January) should have been the large (2,100 tons standard displacement) with dual-purpose guns. I don't know if they were kept for the reduced program from April 1939, since that is sometimes described as being for four Soldati and eight improved Soldati (dramatically improved AA at the cost of a torpedo bank).

According to Sappino's book, some 120/50 DP mounts were built. Specifically, what is said is;

The 120-mm/50s in stabilised turrets were supposed to replace the 135-mm, originally expected for the Comandanti Medaglie d’Oro-class, were produced at Ansaldo, a production that would continue throughout the entire war.[67]

The footnote itself reads;

````[67] Ansaldo Archive—Work in progress 1941–44, heavy artillery factory, six turrets and six gun mounts of 120/50 single, by 31 August 1941; fifteen single complexes by 31 March 1943.```

[drifting delta]

I see, I'm just speculating on this 254 calibre gun since San Giorgio was still running and 254 shells were still being produced, and the whole cruiser killer prohects, but eh, if it even exist at this point I'm assuming it's buried deep inside some archive far from weegee's reach .

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/BAESystemsInc/status/1748651615689552326

[drifting delta]

I'd say the other 2 products of the flotta d'evasione that saw the light of the day were the Cagni-class submarines, and the tanker Sterope (about which I know very little), although that one was more of a prototype.

Looking at the few pictures she has I believe she had something like 2 120(?)mm guns, one fore, one aft.

[chilly osprey]

FWIW, the RM did have a couple designs kicking around that would have use a modern 254/55 gun, in the context of the 17,500-ton pocket battleships proposed for the flotta d'evasione, and then that got was proposed for export. But idk if anyone ever even bothered trying to draw up a gun for that.

Though oddly enough for some reason Ansaldo has a drawing of the old 254/40 that's dated to 1934, what what reason I'm not sure

[heady sail]

Ok, thanks for clearing things up about improved Maestrale and the improved Soldati.
Yes, with improved Maestrale, I meant the "Maestrale potenziato".

About the 120/50 mm mounts the thing about being a replacement for the 135/45 mm for the Medaglie d'oro Class, always confused me. Wasn't the 135/45mm a replacement already for the standard 120/50 of the other destroyers to help with the accuracy issues?

Besides, if they produced the turrets throughout the war, on what ship were they supposed to mount them?

Were they supposed to be put on this "improved Soldati" or on another ship? From what I know the "improved Soldati" weren't authorised to be built.

[heady sail]

As Phoenix_jz wrote below, other than this blueprint for the Soviets, the only other design which featured 10inch guns was the first draft for the U.P. 90, a pocket battleship marketed to the Romanians and the South American navies. In my opinion if they were to ever build a large cruiser they wouldn't have used the 254mm, whatever you can do with a 10inch gun you can also do with a 8inch gun, and if you already have a 10inch gun you could go as well for a 12inch gun...

[heady sail]

Yes, but I meant warships. Besides it's really sad that the Costanzo Ciano cruisers were never built, they were even authorized but cancelled after Italy entered the war.

[heady sail]

The Sterope was supposed to be a sort of testbed for the new large diesel engines. On the Cernuschi's article about the breakout fleet it's stated that an improved diesel engine was ready for 1942 but at the end no new tanker was built.

[heady sail]

I don't know about the armament, in the body of the article 152mm are mentioned, they could be that.

[heady sail]

Yes, there are some designs of pocket battleship/battlecruisers, like the U.P. 90, the U.P 102, the U.P. 770... Is the U.P 770 the Livorno Battlecruiser, or I'm messing things up?

[heady sail]

Moreover consider that for the time of the WWII the San Giorgio were basically in reserve

Btw found clearer drawing of the "improved Soldati".

[heady sail]

The quadruple torpedo tube on the Tzoli drawings seems sus... I don't know, what do you say? No reason to not use the standard triple torpedo tubes. Especially considering they didn't like the quadruple of the Capitani Romani...

[drifting delta]

Thanks to both of you guys, it's very much worth it! It's kind of info I am looking for. I have that article too, and rechecking it it indeed talks about a "not yet designed" 254/55mm gun, not yet designed by 1934 I'm assuming, so there might be some random blueprint lying around.

[drifting delta]

And I absolutely agree, in fact I'm looking just out of curiosity, to give a possible name and year to the guns on the Napoli.
But from said article the ship was first designed as a pocket battleship for the flotta d'evasione, and then sold for export.

[drifting delta]

Yeah but it talks about possible options and 3 guns, when I only see 2 in the drawing on the article , and it feels weird to talk about speculations of the planners when the ships was in fact completed and we have photos of her.

At one point I got so frustrated by the lack of info I tried measuring the guns based on the photo on the article lmao, hence the 120mm I was talking about.

[heady sail]

Don't worry, it's always a pleasure to talk about Italian ships. Usually people are always high on German and English propaganda (even the Devs) and consider Italy a complete joke, when that couldn't be further from the truth.
(I'm biased, but in term of design the only one ahead of Italy were the Americans and maybe the British.)

[heady sail]

You should join the WT-ITA research group discord, there is Nicho who often goes to the Leonardo's archives, maybe if you ask him he could search something. Just some days ago he posted some blueprints of the 135mm mounts for example.

[heady sail]

Probably I would say the window to build a 254mm/55 gun was between 1934 and 1938, no later. But personally I wouldn't put it after Italy signed the second London naval treaty, because after she renounced to breach the treaty.

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1748792345275818399

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

Hellcat pilot ENS Raymond Baldwin of VF-8 managed to sink two Japanese subs with one bomb. While flying over the Ryukyu Islands in 1944, he spotted the subs tied together in a sheltered anchorage and then dropped a bomb between the two. Both subs were destroyed.
#SeaStorySaturday

Twitter · Jan 20, 2024, 7:39 PM

[heady sail]

Yeah, in fact I also thought it was weird to talk in a conditional form about something actually built...

[heady sail]

Lol, that's one way to go, for sure.

[chilly osprey]

It was yeah. To be honest, that passage really confuses me - I suspect it was more an ambition than a well-outlined plan. 120/50 production wasn't fast, and it while the Comandanti probably could have taken them - at the very least they seemed to have about the same standard displacement as the Type 1939's - it still would have required substantial design revisions.

The 135/45 was a successor to the older 120/50's, but not a replacement for them on older destroyer classes. The 120/50 single-purpose guns are kind of more complicated than the popular story about them has made out. When it was first introduced in the Ansaldo 1926 twin mounds (Navigatori-class, Freccia & Folgore-class) had a lot of issues with dispersion just due to various issues with the mounts themselves, beyond even the common cradle mounting. As such, MV was reduced from 950 m/s to 920 m/s.

In the mean time, OTO became a major 120/50 supplier in the early to mid 1930s, the OTO 1931 mounts on Maestrale and Oriani-classes as well as the armored OTO 1933 mounts for the Cavour-class, and had an MV of 930 m/s. By the time it came around to the Soldati-class, Ansaldo had worked out a lot of issues with their early twin mounts, and the RM also felt that it was really not worth worried so much about the accuracy of fire for the destroyer guns beyond 10,000 meters. As such, the guns were raised back to 950 m/s on the Ansaldo 1926 guns, and their new Ansaldo 1936 mounts also had an initial MV of 950 m/s. The contemporary OTO mounts remained at 930 m/s.

The biggest development with the 120/50 during the war was the move to single mounts, with the Ansaldo 1940. This was originally for the sake of getting better range with starshells, but as the war went on on several destroyers it was used to replace the forward twin gun, reducing weight forward but maintaining a total of 4 guns. Most interesting of all was an experimental OTO mount installed in place of the forward twin on Legionario, with a substanitally increased rate of fire versus earlier 120/50's.

[chilly osprey]

Quadruple torpedo tubes is legit as far as I know. iirc one of the proposals for the improved Soldati I mentioned earlier actually called for a single quadruple bank of torpedoes.

None were ever built in that style, but it seems to be something the RM was considering at that point in time (circa 1939).

[drifting delta]

Ah yes, the famous WT classified documents leakers lol. JK that's actually very interesting, I'll go join it now.

[drifting delta]

In my very, very undeducated opinion it could be that those guns were not "fixed" but could be mounted and dismounted based on necessity, since it's a tanker and not a warship, hence why they are not mentioned.

[drifting delta]

Eh... decades over decades of myths and false info piling up. Not like the Italian side did much to oppose that, the lack of easily accessible info including blueprints and projects is symptomatic. Although something started getting in motion in recent literature (still not easily available).

(Granted, I find blueprints and projects to be no more than leisure talk. What actually matters is wartime action, and the RM is very much fine in that regard too).

[eternal veldt]

Its rather unfortunate that Bagnasco passed away recently.

Same with authors like Alan Raven. Hope there are others to carry the torch forward.

[oak harness]

So... it came to my attention that a lot of the LD2 skins have 'secret' interactions, so I went looking for some. Was poking about the 'terrain' in New Jersey's LD2 beach skin and she just conjurs an ice-cream out of thin air and offers me one. Then she tells me not to worry since Eagle Union shipgirls always have Plenty of Ice Cream...

...Which is Hilariously Historically Accurate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qiyo8D0nH70
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUcHlsAMzuY

[maiden citrus]

[frozen kestrel]

So quick question: What Japanese medium tank was most common in 1945?

[desert agate]

the Australian war memorial has some great resources on the first Emden that was lost at the Cocos Islands

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/E85317

a lot of very good primary sources as well as a good few books and other writings on the action

various other Australian museums such as the Australian National Maritime Museum and the Western Australian Maritime Museum have resources on the Emden too however none are as comprehensive or accessible as the Australian War Memorial's collection

outside of Germany the Australian War Memorial arguably has the most comprehensive collection relating to that ship in the world

[grave ravine]

Should be Type 97 Chi-ha Kais

[brittle cargo]

So, has anyone else found info for Huan Chang & Ji An/Chi An beyond the 1913 Chinese Navy "proposals"? Everything I've seen so far points to some Deviantart Shipbucket drawings and a Secretprojects thread about Chinese ship designs from 1890's to 1949.

[maiden citrus]

got sent this picture of yamato off tateyama, have not seen it before

[drifting delta]

Brecia too, Sappino,... . All the best are going. It's tough, man.

Giulio Poggiaroni from ITMArchives is very interesting.

And obviously, Phoenix .

[shy grail]

Nathan Okun as well

[heady sail]

Maybe the 120/50 mm DP was a sort of a private venture by the Ansaldo?

I can't see why they would continue to develop it, and even produce it for the duration of the war if they didn't intend to put it on any ship.

Maybe they thought another serie of the normal Soldati could take them?

Surely they could have fit on the Comandanti Medaglie d'oro, but I never saw any project or plan about them getting fitted with 120/50mm.

From what I know the first serie of the Medaglie d'oro, would have had 4 135/45mm guns in single mounts, and the second serie would have had 5 135/45mm always in single mounts, with heavier AA artillery.

Btw I didn't know about the improved 120/50 mount on the legionario with an improved fire rate. Maybe this one 120/50mm of the OTO, was a rival to the 120/50 stabilized of the Ansaldo.
This actually could mean that they intended to put improved mounts on the Soldati...
Do you know about the fire rate of this improved 120/50? I know the standard 120/50 was pretty slow compared to the destroyers's guns of the other navy, like a rof of like 6-8 rounds per minute.

I also know they were developing a 135/45mm double purpose, probably they were trying different things. I know they were to be equipped on the second retrofit of the Cavour and on the light cruisers of the Etna class, and , if I'm not mistaken, also on the Comandanti Medaglie d'oro. Work on them was stopped by the armistice. I know for sure the could elevate to 75° degrees instead of the 45° of the normal ones, did they had something else or the difference was only in the elevation?
.

[heady sail]

Ah, a didn't know that.

I knew that they didn't like the quadruples on the Capitani Romani and said it would have been better if they were the standard triples.

I also know that the Comandanti Medaglie d'oro were to have two triples, so maybe later they decided against the quadruples

[heady sail]

This simply outlines the difference of dedication between wt players and WG players if you ask me.../s

(No, by the way the leaking thing was a thing mostly overblown by rags try to get a couple of more clicks.)

Here is the invite link if you need it. https://discord.com/invite/wt-ita-suggestion-group-644215370483236946

[cinder escarp]

(I'll never forget to mention that I was involved with the whole CR2 gun rotor leak, that was a fun time. Hell of a thing to wake up to with it being on all of the press.)

[heady sail]

I don't know, maybe. But you need to store ammo safely anyway

[heady sail]

That was the first one, and that got media attention, but really, from what I understood, it wasn't a thing completely classified. Maybe simply something that couldn't be shared outside of a Britain?

[cinder escarp]

Oh no, that one was doubly extra classified and the dude forged stamps on it.

Had to wipe his accounts and start over.

He had... a talking to from his COs.

[heady sail]

Oh, I didn't knew that...

[cinder escarp]

The other real serious one was the DTC-10-125 APFSDS leak

[heady sail]

Really a bad situation to be in, innit?

[cinder escarp]

They didn't throw the book at him, and he's still around on various places.

[heady sail]

The Chinese apfsds one? I hope they didn't catch him otherwise they would have him executed, I think.

[heady sail]

Well, it was bad, but not really bad bad. Nothing completely unknown, I think.

[cinder escarp]

We can at least safely say the Challenger 2 has no turret mantlet armor of any note outside of the gun mask plate.

[heady sail]

But also like the last one, about the leaked Typhoon manual, that was completely overblown. Like if you search for it it's like the first result, and you don't even need to buy it, you can download a free pdf on another site.

[heady sail]

Welp, at the least we can say that.

[heady sail]

Yeah, you are completely right, nevertheless is infuriating seeing people who think at the same that the Bismarck was a good or particularly successful design, while shitting on the Littorio.
All because she luckily blew up an old WWI battlecruiser in dire need of a retrofit and the British admiralty needed to cover their ass.

unfortunately due to the political scene immediately after the war, defending the actions of the Italian armed forces was not in anyone's interest, and so the lies spread. Add that the best to shit on Italy are the Italians and you get the situation we have today.

[heady sail]

Well, I really like to talk about Regia Marina what if designs, especially considering that the majority of them could actually have been built if we didn't enter the war and if there was the political will. We aren't speaking about delusional blueprints of the level of the Super Yamato or the H-44.

[frozen kestrel]

Am I correct in assuming the Kai is the one with the longer barrel?

[shy grail]

TBF at least a super yamato of some variant is possible (the 6 20 in guns one), H-42 to H-44 though…

[frozen kestrel]

Plausible (to a point), but impractical

[shy grail]

Yeah

[hallow roost]

has anyone figured out which ship is the base for the new chinese BC?

[heady sail]

Yeah, the Japanese were so crazy that I actually can see them building the super Yamato, or at the least trying...

Truth to be told, for how much are beautiful, the last generation of battleship was a useless money sink, everyone who built them would have been so much better by building some light or medium aircraft carriers.

[shy grail]

Wait only 30 k hp? Lion class has like 70k hp

[heady sail]

Are we talking about Qing China or early Republic?

[shy grail]

Light carriers are also money sinks tbf

Independence class costs almost as much as USS Hornet and bring less than half the aircraft capacity and nowhere near the aviation storage and ammo

Main thing is you can make them like 1 year faster

[ivory ridge]

1913

[shy grail]

The fast BBs usefulness depends on the circumstances, discount France for kicking out of the war early and frankly speaking, Italy and Germany building carriers is a very long run time thing because you need to build up the expertise to do everything on a carrier, otherwise you end up with a Graf Zeppelin that is hung up in port doing nothing and is far more vulnerable to allied air raids (although Goering is also a major factor).

Which leave the US, Japan, and UK, of which the US shoots itself in the foot by making their fast BBs not fast BBs until the North Carolinas get their vibration issues solved, then they finally deploy them and one of them get torped in one of the best torpedo salvoes of the entire war, while the other one gives good service by sinking Kirishima. Now we just have KGV and POW, and then POW is unfairly weighted due to unreadiness during her first battle, and some epically bad luck during her last. Her service during Operation Halberd is much better and more representative of a usefulness of a fast BB, and she gives good service. KGV is basically stuck holding the atlantic fort because of German BBs so they both fleet-in-being each other. Yamato, of course is the big outlier and doesn’t do anything (because of total Japanese fuel oil skill issue)

[merry summit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCSHJ1OZfHA Cold war Royal navy :0

Is that R09 Ark Royal?

[shy grail]

Looks like it

[merry summit]

I want to see what will Cold war Ark Royal would look like.

[shy grail]

The omega sign indicating 892 NAS with Phantoms basically confirm it

[merry summit]

I wonder what are those ships?

[shy grail]

Almost certainly Nelson/Rodney

Then followed by Hood? Or Malaya/Barham

The gun turrets are very distinctive

[merry summit]

The video supposed to be the British pathe footage from 1945-1946

I don't think it's Hood