#history
wintry moat
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1732798380294705418
How the fuck
did that ship
Come back from that
junior trench
Spite
And hard work
The same things which let Cassin and Downes serve long and hard after their repairs from looking like this
Which incidentally is why they have a zombie skill in game
somber knoll
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1732954689778463219
Nimitz big brain moment
desert agate
Fortunately for the USN, the IJN themselves didn't fully understand the lethality of the combat system they had created with Kido Butai
subtle prawn
fierce sparrow
eyo? all V-22 Ospreys are right now grounded?
What the hell is going on?
ivory ridge
One crashed 10 or so days ago
And sadly the reddit user ur_wrong_about_v22 died in that crash
manic latch
<:CleveDerp:721896663370694788> eyo? all V-22 Ospreys are right now grounded?
Wh...
Crashed in Japan
manic latch
And sadly the reddit user ur_wrong_about_v22 died in that crash
Man what a name tho
shrewd pecan
shrewd pecan
It’s a weird Frankenstein F-15A
manic latch
Japanese F-15 stronger 
Better radar and AAM missile
And Israel one use Python
US literally got weakest F-15
shrewd pecan
idk the American one is lacking features from MSIP 1 while featuring improvements from later upgrade packages
It’s kinda just all over the place
they honestly should of probably just skipped the F-15A and gone straight with the F-15C
manic latch
I want Mig-25, but Flanker will do 
shrewd pecan
flanker seems cracked
shrewd pecan
talking more it’s flight model
shrewd pecan
yeah for war thunder dogfights it’s insane
probably still gonna struggle against the F-16C though
shrewd pecan
Seems mid until it gets AMRAAMs
Funny that the Brit’s are getting the one with the HMD before the Swedes do
manic latch
yeah for war thunder dogfights it’s insane
Dueling goblins
- Mirage 2000
- F-16 Block 10
3)F-16AJ/ADF - Gripen
5)F-16 Block 15 - Su-27
Mirage 4000:???
tough quail
mirage 4k is waiting for it's belly pylons but those are confirmed to be a thing
so four more missiles coming
manic latch
@shrewd pecan
wintry moat
Lol
fierce sparrow
spiral cedar
spring briar
yeah
this is what Admiral Makharoff observed in projectile tests of 1894
and what helped him come up with the AP cap
noticing that reversing a cemented plate and shooting it with the same projectiles that had previously shattered on it, the projectiles now penned and remained intact
manic latch
spring briar
The early 1890’s, which saw the introduction of harveyized plates would allow armor to finally “win” against shells since the introduction of nickel steel
Well
Win until 1894 that is
manic latch
frozen kestrel
Just finished watching Greyhound. Gotta say it's one of the best movies about the Battle of the Atlantic that I've ever seen. Really wish there were more movies about the Atlantic theatre.
maiden citrus
it's a nice movie that captures the feeling and manages to tell a story yeh
strong plank
Wish it’d released in theaters
pallid grove
I just found out my uncle was in charge of the tug, USS Munsee, that towed the bow of the USS Pittsburgh back to Guam after it was broken off in a typhoon, earning her the nickname "The Longest Ship in the Navy"
subtle prawn
cinder escarp
idk the American one is lacking features from MSIP 1 while featuring improvement...
As far as it can be seen, it is literally just an early batch F-15A with the MSIP 1 flare bays on it. Which are probably a mistake for their outsourced modeler that they have to come up with an excuse for.
That said, it is truly baffling they put in an early late '70s F-15A... against Su-27S and Su-27SK/J-11. There's a huge gap in capabilities.
cinder escarp
Oh yes they do the R-27ER exists
manic latch
Wait till R-77
shrewd pecan
It’s has the flares but it seems to be missing the MFD and other improvements in MSIP 1
The flight model is also fucked but it’s still a work in progress
cinder escarp
Yeah, it's literally just the flares - it's not an MSIP bird at all.
shrewd pecan
the Frankenstein eagle
guessing they’re gonna rush towards adding the 2000s C whenever AMRAAMs drop though it still just seems weird they went with a weird late 70s A over just going with the C and giving it sparrows initially
spiral cedar
Train of battleships as seen from BB-57's Air Defense Level during the bombardment. The closest ship is most likely BB-55 North Carolina.
All six battleships of the task group are visible in this shot from a VT-17 Avenger. The first three ships are likely BB-57 South Dakota, BB-55 North Carolina, and BB-58 Indiana.
shrewd pecan
grave ravine
He was in saving private ryan too
He also produced Band of Brothers and The Pacific
frozen yoke
One of the surviving PBY black cats RK-A at Morrabbin air museum
lime scarab
Hi guys I have a question how overweight where the atago class and did it lead to there down fall?
Or am I just completely wrong
chilly osprey
Kind of depends on the when. They were about 11,350 tons as completed, but when Takao and Atago were rebuilt it rose to 12,570 tons.
I wouldn't really say it lead to their downfall, though.
chilly osprey
All four did need major refits to increase their longitudinal strength in the mid-1930s, though, and ofc course Takao and Atago had major rebuilds, which among other things were meant to help improve their stability.
lime scarab
All four did need major refits to increase their longitudinal strength in the mi...
Which didn’t help improve there stability of there tonnage
chilly osprey
So even if we can't say it caused their 'downfall' - being overweight certainly did hinder them and required expensive refits/rebuilds in the 1930s, and reduced their performance versus what was intended when they were first ordered.
chilly osprey
Net positive, for the most part, as they were addressing significant issues like weakness in the strength of the hulls or insufficient stability. They also usually took the opportunity to improve the armament of the ship, including AA, as well as their fire control systems.
But they also came at the cost of top speed, endurance, and protection (raised the waterline, which meant less of the belt armor was actually above the waterline).
lime scarab
Makes me wonder if American retrofits were good as well
chilly osprey
They generally were - the Americans hadn't built their ships to be overweight, so they didn't have to spend as much effort fixing issues inherent to the design of the ships.
What with that said, as the war wore on and more and more AA guns were added (as well as radar installations), they did run into issues with excessive top weight and thus less stability then was ideal.
lime scarab
But overall the older warships retrofits were positive good then
For the Americans
Thank you for explanation
subtle prawn
manic latch
eternal veldt
The Clevelands were notoriously top-heavy due to the amount of AA guns they added late war, as Phoenix said
Some cruisers such as Indianapolis and New Orleans had their catapults removed to reduce top weight (and therefore more AA guns can be added), whereas others like the second batch of Baltimores (ie. CA-72 Pittsburgh and beyond) had one crane eliminated.
The Takao/Atago rebuilds also moved the aviation facilities more aft and basically doubled their torpedo armament, which IIRC the Japanese more favoured. Unfortunately war broke out too soon for Maya and Choukai to receive the similar refits.
solid mango
The Clevelands were notoriously top-heavy due to the amount of AA guns they adde...
Yush 
solid mango
Some cruisers such as Indianapolis and New Orleans had their catapults removed t...
Cleveland after the war had one of her catapults removed along with range finders in 2 turrets in regards to this issue aswell
strong plank
then there’s the funny enterprise refit request
where allegedly the captain requested that armor be removed from the belt to accommodate more aa guns
solid mango
Cleveland after the war had one of her catapults removed along with range finder...
As for the other ships of the class, CL-66 Springfield and onwards had steel superstructure, contrast to the previous cleves with aluminum superstructure, is ver top heavy yus 
strong plank
I say allegedly bc I cannot for the life of me remember the source
lime scarab
I’m pretty sure that the baltimores and Cleveland were one of the best heavy cruiser in ww2 but I could be wrong
spiral cedar
That is wrong, simply because the Clevelands were light cruisers and not heavy cruisers
spiral cedar
Yeah
runic ermine
Does anyone here play enlisted?
spiral cedar
Heavy anti-surface and anti-air armament, plus good protection
It wasn't a perfect design but no design is
It was a design the US needed and it was able to be mass produced successfully
lime scarab
Kinda like the Baltimores for heavy cruisers
runic ermine
Kinda like the Baltimores for heavy cruisers
Does AL have to do with it or is it because of the actual ship?
lime scarab
Does AL have to do with it or is it because of the actual ship?
No the actual ship
runic ermine
No the actual ship
What do you like about her? Performance? Design? Armament? History?
spiral cedar
Kinda like the Baltimores for heavy cruisers
The Baltimores benefit from being freed of treaty limits during the design stage, which meant they were built with larger margins for future growth, unlike the Clevelands
That meant they showed up at the frontlines a year later, but also that they could handle future upgrades without much penalty
lime scarab
What do you like about her? Performance? Design? Armament? History?
I’m not sure maybe that they are not like like the cruisers from the other navy’s in ww2, and that the cruisers for the us weren’t as heavy as other navy’s
spiral cedar
The Baltimores were some of the heaviest cruisers of WWII
Unlike most navies that couldn't design and build post-treaty cruiser classes once war broke out
lime scarab
The Baltimores were some of the heaviest cruisers of WWII
Really interesting, then why did they mass produce the ships
spiral cedar
The "ironclad law of mobilization" is that you mass produce the best design you have at the time
That's why the US started pumping out Clevelands once the war started
Once the Baltimore design work finished, they pumped out Baltimores
Because the Clevelands and Baltimores are all based off the original Brooklyn class hull design, so they could be designed and put into production faster
The first clean-sheet US cruiser designs weren't built until after the war (Des Moines, Worcester)
runic ermine
It's crazy that people don't know that the British were part of the battle of the bulge
lime scarab
Because the Clevelands and Baltimores are all based off the original Brooklyn cl...
So basically the Cleveland and Baltimore class were a better version on the Brooklyn class
runic ermine
And it wasn't just a few soldiers it was the whole 21st Army Group
spiral cedar
So basically the Cleveland and Baltimore class were a better version on the Broo...
Not strictly better, but different priorities
Due to knowing more
runic ermine
The tribals were the best DDs hands down
spiral cedar
The Brooklyns have more 6" guns than the Clevelands but an inferior 5" heavy AA battery
They also had even less topweight growth margins than the Clevelands
Some of the early ones also had some structural weaknesses in the bows due to inexperience with welded construction
lime scarab
Some of the early ones also had some structural weaknesses in the bows due to in...
Which one was the light cruiser they designed after the Washington naval treaty
Because if I remember correctly they weren’t great designs and had poor torpedo armor
lime scarab
or Pensacolas?
Pensacola’s
I herd it was a really bad design
For a Washington naval treaty limited ship
eternal veldt
Subjective, they are the first "heavy" cruisers made by the USN in the wake of the WNT.
They were designated as light cruisers until the advent of the London Naval Treaty, which finally made clear terms on what is a heavy and light cruiser.
This applies to the French Duquesne class as well, usually shat on as well.
spiral cedar
Which one was the light cruiser they designed after the Washington naval treaty
Well, strictly speaking, the Pensacolas, but that's a bit confusing. The Light Cruiser / Heavy Cruiser split wasn't defined until the London Naval Agreement in 1930. Before that, the Washington Naval Treaty in 1922 created the 10000-ton cruiser displacement limit, but only dictated a max gun caliber (8") along with it. The thing was, at the time, people thought of those sub-10000 ton cruisers as all "light cruisers" because they were derived from the "light armored cruiser" concept. Cruisers before the treaty were generally considered either protected cruisers (no armored belt, only an armored deck) and armored cruisers (having a waterline armor belt). However, those armor belts are heavy, so many armored cruisers were as large as battleships of the time. The "light armored cruiser" was achieved when design work and technology made giving a waterline armored belt to a medium-size ship practical, and thus most 1920s cruisers were considered light armored cruisers—or "light cruisers," for short (the New Orleans class was originally designated CL for light cruiser for example). Only after the 1930 London Naval Agreement was a new split made, dependent wholly on gun caliber—6.1" and smaller was light cruiser, up to 8" was heavy cruiser. So the Pensacolas were the first US "treaty-era" light cruisers as-built, but after London, the Brooklyns became the first US treaty-era light cruisers by the LNT definition.
eternal veldt
As for Omahas, they're more "scout cruisers" - something taken on by CLs later.
maiden citrus
they're also mostly 'bad designs' in comparison to ones that were made later by the USN, compared to other cruisers of the time they're highly competitive (e.g. their opponents are aobas and myokos, both of which they compare favorably or debatably to)
eternal veldt
Furutaka as built is a bit....interesting, safe to say?
6 x 1 203, closer to a Hawkins.
spiral cedar
Because if I remember correctly they weren’t great designs and had poor torpedo ...
1920s cruiser designs couldn't fit 8" guns (the largest and most powerful guns legal for cruisers by the Washington treaty), 30+ knot speed, and armor sufficient against 8" guns, all on 10000 tons or less. So they pretty much all sacrificed armor to get the first two, so as a result most 1920s cruisers are a lot squishier than 1930s/1940s cruisers. As tech improved and people got better at squeezing every available ton out of their cruiser designs, eventually some cruiser classes managed good armor protection while staying under the weight limit, but that was mostly in the '30s and '40s, and even they had to shave off weight in inconvenient ways to achieve that
lime scarab
they're also mostly 'bad designs' in comparison to ones that were made later by ...
So where aobas and Myokos better ships then
eternal veldt
or you can lie
maiden citrus
aobas certainly not, myokos it depends on the importance you place on certain characteristics but they're not very drastically different units, the myokos weigh significantly more and have a bit more speed is probably the largest difference
one has turrets made of cardboard, the other has barbettes made of cardboard, very pick your poison
point is though if the pensacolas are bad, so are ships like myoko, that entered service around the same time and have 3,000 tons more weight ...and pretty much no combat capability increase to show for it
this basically comes down to what jaba posted directly above and is why ships in that acute era tend to be of this flavor
cinder escarp
Really interesting, then why did they mass produce the ships
So to add a bit, the USN and IJN were very constrained by the 10,000t limit (tanks to the demands of Pacific warfare - if you only wanted to control the mediterranean you had a much easier job) as jaba mentioned - IJN went down the route in the end of largely lying about compliance... while the US struggled with compliance (mostly, there was some fudging in later classes) resulting in flawed ships (Wichita is the only really great one, and she is the worst offender in fudging)... but had also in the mid-late '30s hoping and then expecting the treaty system to fall apart started working on treaty-free designs. There's a whole bunch of work you can see in the springs styles books, but once the treaty fell apart the USN already had essentialy Cleveland and Baltimore on the drawing board.
By the mid 30s keeping up with ever growing requirements while also having the speed and endurance to be relevant in the pacific had become almost an act of futility inside WNT limits.
Algerie, although an otherwise superlative ship competing strongly against Wichita for "best WNT CA" doesn't quite have the range, stores, or crew to be a great pacific boat.
grave ravine
And it wasn't just a few soldiers it was the whole 21st Army Group
Eh, the British role in the Battle of the Bulge was fairly limited, they would move in to relieve some American units on the North flank after fighting had largely died down in the area, contributed some of the forces guarding the bridges near the very tip of the German penetration, and contributing to the allied counterattack at the end of the battle. It is clearly illustrated by the casualty figures that American soldiers ultimately did most of the hard fighting in the Battle of the Bulge, and indeed some of Montgomery's claims about the battle at the time caused a major controversy
cinder escarp
(Speaking of the brits, they could and did make extensive use of the fact they had a morbillion ports to resupply from to get away with using designs with quite honestly bad endurance)
grave ravine
(Speaking of the brits, they could and did make extensive use of the fact they h...
I thought the Counties had pretty decent range
cinder escarp
sure, but they're garbage barges
It's easy to have range when you don't even try to have a belt.
spiral cedar
25mm, just enough to stop kamikazes 
subtle prawn
But London did get more belt armor post rebuild
cinder escarp
Yes, London did. Sadly, she was the only county that got a proper rebuild.
eternal veldt
Unfortunately at the cost of a lot of things.
Trade the reliability and crusing range of the Counties for.... A belt that can only stop DD shells, and a hangar that you barely use to protect the walrus
👍
desert agate
One of the surviving PBY black cats RK-A at Morrabbin air museum
PBY-5a(m)?
eternal veldt
Also ngl, the counties are slowly growing on me aesthetically
They do have that Ocean Liner look
desert agate
The tribals were the best DDs hands down
They were far from it
alpine onyx
Quite far
junior trench
And it wasn't just a few soldiers it was the whole 21st Army Group
I mean... they sort of just sat there and """held the line"""
which even then is a... generous description
eternal veldt
Fletchers are arguably the "best"/well balanced destroyers personally.
junior trench
I mean
in that case then it's the Sumners and Gearings
which solve the main gripe
the turning radius
and also use their tonnage better
eternal veldt
Mhm. Gearing gets the double rudder setup too.
frozen yoke
PBY-5a(m)?
Just standard, only surviving Aussie one
desert agate
Just standard, only surviving Aussie one
Was under the impression all the aussie black cats were converted to a(m) spec
Does it have wheels?
Because that's the biggest difference between an a and an a(m)
a(m) was also an indigenously developed variant and only saw RAAF service
Yanks hated it and wouldn't fly them
desert agate
The a has wheels
The a(m) has the wheels removed
And all armour removed
Was an Australian modification of the pby-5a to give it extra range, we couldn't get classic 5s and the wheel wells made great fuel tanks anyway
Because of those modifications they flew combat sorties to Southern China from the former DEI
Cant remember which island it was off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Morotai
Not aware of any RAAF black cats that weren't originally 5a's
frozen yoke
I honestly don't know, I'm more of a train guy
And a ship guy
Like these
Or this
maiden citrus
based
frozen yoke
talking about trains, I'm out volenteering tomorrow at the train I posted
runic ermine
Eh, the British role in the Battle of the Bulge was fairly limited, they would m...
True
runic ermine
Eh, the British role in the Battle of the Bulge was fairly limited, they would m...
I just brought it up because enlisted's next major update is the battle of the bulge and people were asking if the brits participated in the battle
But yes I do know that the American role was bigger
naive rampart
Fuchida jumpscare at church today
runic ermine
Fuchida jumpscare at church today
Is that a war criminal?
manic latch
Is that a war criminal?
Nah
He testified some trials on war crimes
But US let him go so likely innocent
naive rampart
@runic ermine No, he was famously Akagi’s air group commander at Pear Harbor and Midway and spent the rest of the war as a staff officer. He converted to Christianity after the war, hence why he got a name drop in church today
runic ermine
<@952378357255921705> No, he was famously Akagi’s air group commander at Pear Ha...
That's nice
It's just without context it's kinda odd
runic ermine
<@952378357255921705> No, he was famously Akagi’s air group commander at Pear Ha...
Reminds me of that Japanese ace who promised to never harm another living creature again
naive rampart
He’s quite infamous in naval history circles though for writing about Midway and the war and getting everything wrong though lol
@runic ermine That was Saburo Sakai
runic ermine
<@952378357255921705> That was Saburo Sakai
Yep
runic ermine
He’s quite infamous in naval history circles though for writing about Midway and...
So he wasn't the greatest strategic planner?
(My history knowledge is usually land based but I do know some stuff about naval history and I am always open to learning more about history)
naive rampart
So he wasn't the greatest strategic planner?
Well, he job was more tactical than strategic, and he was fairly competent as far as that goes. The problem was that his book made a lot of errors that he probably shouldn’t have made. Some of the biggest things were his claims of objecting to bad ideas that he didn’t and claiming that the Japanese carriers were about to launch their counter strikes at Midway when they were bombed, which they weren’t.
subtle prawn
spiral cedar
frozen kestrel
Okay, real quick, I just need to know, how the actual fuck does this count as a battlecruiser?
No, seriously, what the fuck makes this a battlecruiser? It's literally just a glorified guided missile cruiser
The only thing that could make me even consider it a battlecruiser is its size, and that's being too nice.
wintry moat
I know stalin had a love of BCs
frozen kestrel
Like, it's a neat looking ship... but if you're gonna call it a battlecruiser, you could've at least given it a deck gun, even if it's only a five inch
If anything, this ship's deck's so flat that classifying it as militarized cargo ship is more accurate
subtle prawn
No, seriously, what the fuck makes this a battlecruiser? It's literally just a g...
I think you missed the part where the “battlecruiser” part is only referred to as such in the west and the official designation of it by the Soviets is “heavy nuclear-powered guided-missile cruiser”
runic ermine
The Soviets didn't consider it a BC
Kinda like how the West call the DP-27 a DP-28
manic latch
Like, it's a neat looking ship... but if you're gonna call it a battlecruiser, y...
?
She has twin 130mm
manic latch
No, seriously, what the fuck makes this a battlecruiser? It's literally just a g...
Yes thats what Soviets called her...Heavy missile cruiser
frozen kestrel
?
Sorry, didn't see the mount
yeah, so this whole thing spawned because a friend in another server and I were discussing warships and as soon as this thing was brought up it lead into an argument about its classification and such
Suffice to say, we're over it now
wintry moat
yeah, so this whole thing spawned because a friend in another server and I were ...
I understand this
Me and my buddy argue over what Hood is, to the point i bring it up just to fuck with him
frozen kestrel
Yeah, that same friend really likes to bring up Crossroads when I'm around just to fuck with me. In return, I send him a photo or two of Enterprise's scrapping.
wintry moat
Lol
shrewd pecan
Like, it's a neat looking ship... but if you're gonna call it a battlecruiser, y...
Tonnage wise is far heavier than any other missile cruiser and on top of that it’s far bigger, what else are you gonna classify it as?
Ships these days don’t have anything larger than a 127 since big guns are almost entirely irrelevant for modern naval combat
In terms of cargo ships if you want to go with that comparison typical modern cargo ships are actually bigger than the Kirov in both tonnage and size
eternal veldt
yeah, so this whole thing spawned because a friend in another server and I were ...
Iowa is a battlecruiser
spiral cedar
Iowa is a battlecruiser
Bismarck is a battlecruiser
The BISMARK was maybe the equal of much of the Royal Navy but in fact was more of a heavy battle cruiser than a Battleship.
chilly osprey
Tonnage wise is far heavier than any other missile cruiser and on top of that it...
I mean, that's why the Soviets called it a 'Heavy' Nuclear-powered missile cruiser, for what it's worth.
But as a design it's a good example of what happens when the development drags on for so long that the original reason for it to exist stopped being relevant, and without a clear goal they just stuck everything onto the design and it turned into a 28,000-ton monstrosity
wintry moat
Iowa is a battlecruiser
Ive said this to my buddy just to fuck with him
runic ermine
Lmao the reference
Which is the bombardment of Vancouver Island in 1942 and in 1944 her crew slaughtered the survivors of an allied ship
jagged monolith
But as a design it's a good example of what happens when the development drags o...
And they actually built it.
I like them... but y?
autumn sorrel
I like them... but *y?*
Counter US Carrier Strike Group
Soviet really don’t have anything better to carry enough missile to saturated a CSG missile defense system and still capable of defend itself somewhat against retaliatory strike
Hence you get Moska and Kirov class
subtle prawn
remote monolith
maiden citrus
can't wait for the documentary
remote monolith
can't wait for the documentary
is already in the making yeah
maiden citrus
attenborough our beloved
fierce sparrow
runic ermine
https://youtu.be/ATYlngqA0oU?si=eeXE55oN0lccIady
He's wearing a Canadian uniform with the patch of the 1st Canadian Division btw
frozen kestrel
I was just given this by my grandmother, which was given to my great grandfather somewhere in the 80's-90's. It's definitely a USMC pin, but from what era, I'm not sure. I'm hoping one of you guys can shed some light on it.
manic rain
Wasn't sure myself, so I decided I would ask here. What AL ship has the saddest story? (@ me if you reply please)
runic ermine
Wasn't sure myself, so I decided I would ask here. What AL ship has the saddest ...
Depends
frozen kestrel
I was just given this by my grandmother, which was given to my great grandfather...
I forgot to put the question of: what year/was is this from?
subtle prawn
(What also contributed was the plane being overweight)
autumn sorrel
(What also contributed was the plane being overweight)
I remember watching a docu about this one, I remember they blame it mostly on the ice that prevent the wing flap from deploy properly
runic ermine
In terms of desgin, Japan had worse tanks than italy
fierce sparrow
fierce sparrow
subtle prawn
I remember watching a docu about this one, I remember they blame it mostly on th...
A couple of the other investigators think it was an explosive device, but I feel the evidence leans more into ice + overweight + pilot error
(Having a broken CVR is certainly not helpful either)
last lance
where did you find this?
fucking everywhere
people even putting them on airsoft guns
manic latch
where did you find this?
It's a thing since Soviet Afghan war
I think this range was designed for M60 tank target
runic ermine
It's a thing since Soviet Afghan war
it looks so cursed
dim rover
runic ermine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo9jlYJgNuc
nice
solid mango
manic latch
frozen kestrel
<:Ehhssex:611004140046254080>
what the everloving fuck
wintry moat
Its like that guy at Echo Base in a new Hope
where hes judt in a trashcan attached to a long pole
subtle prawn
runic ermine
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1734719597922672651
And people still wonder why the US put sanctions on Japan
manic latch
@maiden citrus
https://www.warthunder.com/en/news/8642/current
maiden citrus
looks super nice, thanks for the share
subtle prawn
ivory ridge
funi plon
subtle prawn
tough quail
yeah it was "economics" and not a several decade long plan of slavic displacement and genocide
subtle prawn
spring briar
subtle prawn
runic ermine
yeah it was "economics" and not a several decade long plan of slavic displacemen...
That too
That's why I said "and lebensraum"
manic latch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MVz5MBNqsw
solid mango
frozen kestrel
Quick question: What did the Panzer VIII's track shoes look like?
manic latch
Churchill was initially unaware of the offensive meaning of holding up his hand like in this gesture (1942).
manic rain
Offensive meaning? Isn't that just the sign for peace?
eternal veldt
Its the equivalent of the middle finger in the UK and commonwealth countries.
manic rain
That explains a lot.
runic ermine
Churchill was initially unaware of the offensive meaning of holding up his hand ...
Isn't that the V for Victory sign?
eternal veldt
It depends on where the palm is
Facing inward like so, its a "fuck you/up yours"
Facing outward, V for Victory or peace
manic latch
Isn't that the V for Victory sign?
That's why he changed the facing later
desert agate
Offensive meaning? Isn't that just the sign for peace?
the backwards V was originally a French insult from the hundred years war
when the English longbowmen crippled the French in battle, when the French eventually captured some longbowmen, they would cut off the two drawing fingers (the index and middle fingers), thus the taunt was born of Frenchmen showing off their intact hands to the English as an insult, now nearly a thousand years later it can be considered far ruder than the middle finger especially in England
manic latch
Oh I thought it was Longbowmen that flipped the French soldiers as in "these are the fingers that holds the arrow to kill you"
desert agate
Might well be a myth anyway
autumn sorrel
the backwards V was originally a French insult from the hundred years war
when t...
I thought it was the other way around where English Archer show 2 finger to taunt the French?
Like, "Come and try to cut these off"
On the other note, Spoon, why Australia sent Melbourne to China for ship breaking? Does Australia not have the facility to do that?
sus looking "BMP"...
frozen kestrel
Why do the tracks look comically small?
subtle prawn
shrewd pecan
spring briar
what this
manic latch
https://fxtwitter.com/Chieftain_armor/status/1735368981601497301
Man
If M1E3 ends up as American Armata
I will laugh at face of all Abrams fans that defended manned turret with loader because (its better for maintenance and visibility)
shrewd pecan
Trade off wise it is
but the crewless turret also has weight advantages over the manned one
desert agate
On the other note, Spoon, why Australia sent Melbourne to China for ship breakin...
We don't, it was also cheaper to send her overseas
grave ravine
yeah
cinder escarp
Ah yes, Tall Tanker Man.
runic ermine
Ah yes, Tall Tanker Man.
Yeah him
subtle prawn
manic latch
No
maiden citrus
glorious
subtle prawn
ivory ridge
Burkirowa my beloved
runic ermine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1esR-1OMhaI
Nato posting stuff like this is great and idk why
Like when they played among us
manic latch
Nato posting stuff like this is great and idk why
"Look how much fun we are having, cmon dude join the army it's fun experience trust me bro"
Cmon man we play Among us like cool teens join it
maiden citrus
r u sus
chilly osprey
manic latch
https://youtu.be/LNUMTgxYN4Y?si=etMD1dq55x8e7u7d
Love how
Sovietwave: Space, sci-fi, dreams
Natowave: I want to cause nuclear destruction of Europe while assuming we won't have any losses because we are so technologically superior
spring briar
I don't see anything nuclear in that video
just soldiers doing their thing
or is this an in general thing
runic ermine
just soldiers doing their thing
Yeah. The message is "this is who we are. This is what we do"
maiden citrus
'we will defend the rights of humans and stomp on anyone that tries to usurp that with our cool technology' is a based statement
spring briar
exactly
runic ermine
'we will defend the rights of humans and stomp on anyone that tries to usurp tha...
That too
manic latch
or is this an in general thing
Oh it depends on the maker
This is aggressive one for example
spring briar
well so does soviet wave
maiden citrus
agressive only to evil
manic latch
Exactly
spring briar
This is aggressive one for example
I agree with the statement
maiden citrus
'we will destroy sauron!'
sauron: 'whoa there buddy that doesn't seem like something good peace loving people should do'
manic latch
'we will destroy sauron!'
sauron: 'whoa there buddy that doesn't seem like some...
Did they ever claim they were peace loving lol
I'm sure world was still divided before Sauron came back
spring briar
They burned Jeanne D arc because she was "evil" Rich
they burned jeanne d'arc because she resisted their dumb attempts at invading a country across their shore
manic latch
they burned jeanne d'arc because she resisted their dumb attempts at invading a ...
Heresy by wearing man's clothes as a women, and witchcraft 
manic latch
"heretic, fraud, sorceress and cross-dresser."
Church's decision to burn her came for these
ivory ridge
sounds like a cool person to hang out with
spring briar
Church's decision to burn her came for these
the English church using this as an excuse
in the end, France just developed canons (NATO tech) and destroyed all the English
manic latch
you think Jesus would care
Jesus? Possibly not
Bible? Yes
“A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 22:5
spring briar
the Bible is the word of Jesus
well atleast the new testament
yes krem you are using the old testament
classic blunder
manic latch
Well Church used both I assume
spring briar
no
manic latch
spring briar
Christianity is concerned with the new testament
maiden citrus
yee
spring briar
since the old testament is what the Jews adhere to
maiden citrus
especially if something is contradictory, new testement wins
spring briar
manic latch
So they burned her for sins on Old Testament?
spring briar
Jesus would not turn his back on a sinner
maiden citrus
they burned her using that as excuses, iirc they even cleared her of most of those things
spring briar
they burned her because she was an easy black sheep
maiden citrus
and still did it
manic latch
Declared later as Saint
Church looked at the case years after her death
Deemed flawed judgement
manic latch
Jesus would not turn his back on a sinner
Unless you are selling things in Temple
Good thing he had a whip instead a sword
spring briar
why would you call this "jesus turning his back on a sinner"
he's reprimanding them
maiden citrus
clearly he is facing them
alright don't throw tomatoes at me
manic latch
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
chilly osprey
manic latch
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bough...
Average discord channel evolution
maiden citrus
and thus sayeth I, no microtransactions
spring briar
what was the initial discussion again
ah yes
Soviet wave and nato wave are both straight up propaganda
but we live in one
while the other made numerous plans to destroy the first
manic latch
but we live in one
while the other made numerous plans to destroy the first
Remember France was thinking on leaving NATO which irrc lead to focus on French nuclear bombs
De Gaulle 
spring briar
strong plank
“Does that include the ones buried there?”
manic latch
spring briar
“Does that include the ones buried there?”
who said this?
manic latch
Eisenhower
strong plank
Dean Rusk
manic latch
strong plank
Secretary of State under JFK and Johnson
manic latch
"Years after the war the French president told President Eisenhower he wanted all the American soldiers out of France. Eisenhower asked him " does that include the ones buried there?"
Huh
spring briar
and what year was this
strong plank
1967
manic latch
and what year was this
Seems it's Dean Rusk yeah
"As usual when he crossed swords with de Gaulle, Rusk had difficulty. De Gaulle took the further step in 1967 of pulling France entirely out of the military arm of NATO, and when he told Rusk to his face that he wanted "every American soldier out of France," Rusk's anger and impatience boiled over, "Does that include the dead Americans in the military cemeteries as well?" he asked. De Gaulle fell silent, and Rusk felt a measure of satisfaction that he had at last gotten in one good lick at de Gaulle."
spring briar
I'm trying not to be biased here but
why is that such a shocking request from de Gaulle
manic latch
Being in NATO means you tolerate US soldiers in your country no?
spring briar
like I get they hated de Gaulle but ??
manic latch
There were fake claims created in 2003 because of France's stance in Iraq war too
manic latch
There were fake claims created in 2003 because of France's stance in Iraq war to...
An example
This fake rumor was created to hate on French
spring briar
sure but aside from that
were there a large number of other nato countries' soldiers on french soil or smth
manic latch
Bases Rich
How many German bases in France?
One
So it depends on what bases you allow
More bases you have more likely more soldiers of that country will come to there
runic ermine
Unless you are selling things in Temple
common Jesus W
spring briar
manic latch
<:Lexi:1064234145024323614>
There is a theory tho
Why Gaulle didn't like US soldiers
US continued to recognize the Vichy regime as the legal government of France until after the allied invasion of French North Africa in late 1942. Unlike the British, who recognized De Gaulle’s Free French government
manic latch
Roosevelt did not like De Gaulle, considered him a potential dictator of a liberated France, and did little to hide his dislike of the man.
strong plank
I mean this was the middle of the Cold War
manic latch
Old wounds smh
strong plank
The checkpoint Charlie standoff was only a few years prior
NATO is worried about a Soviet invasion
And then suddenly France decides it wants out of NATO
manic latch
Roosevelt wanted to shut France out of the post war world, for example giving UN Security Council seats to only USSR, Britain, China, and US, excluding France.
runic ermine
US continued to recognize the Vichy regime as the legal government of France unt...
Vichy is very interesting
manic latch
I love France when Ships
Will steal their boilers one day
And enlarge Rich's 380mm shell to 406mm
spring briar
primal wave
What is the new plane? The Devastator doesn't have the right wing shape
manic latch
What is the new plane? The Devastator doesn't have the right wing shape
Thought she were popular
Interesting
primal wave
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_TBF_Avenger
oh, so the gold version of the avenger? We only had up to the purp version before, right?
manic latch
oh, so the gold version of the avenger? We only had up to the purp version befo...
I lost interest on rarities when they added Hindenburg's 203mm gun as UR just by slapping (improved) name in it
So up to Manjuu
primal wave
the pic you gave doesn't look as stubby nosed as the in game icon, think it's the same anyway?
manic latch
You won't find a plane with such gun turret
wintry moat
Avenger is really unique like that
maiden citrus
I lost interest on rarities when they added Hindenburg's 203mm gun as UR just by...
des moines aa gun
gold
primal wave
k, I'm not a aviation or warship history buff, so I'll trust you. I use the game as an excuse to look up things so I'm learning a little as I go
manic latch
des moines aa gun
gold
US: we designed this very expensive gun since its the smallest caliber that we can use proximity fuse on, it will be superior to quad 40mm bofors since it will tear Kamikazes apart and will have higher shooting down chance with fuses
Manjuu:
tfw worse than IJN triple 25mm in every way but range at level 1
manic latch
Why is USAF comparing it to F-18
It's a supposed F-15 replacement
Shouldn't that give it more funding
As if Navy can use F-22
strong plank
because the different services have to compete for funding
chilly flower
oh, so the gold version of the avenger? We only had up to the purp version befo...
We already had the VT-18 Squadron Avenger as a special gold version- what this one's gimmick will be I don't know at this time
Also, the art for it isn't very good compared to the previous Avenger arts, the landing gear and proportions are quite off
compared to the baseline
and even the ASW TBM-3 reskinned for VT-18 looks way better than whatever that new gold Avenger is
The new one is way too stubby for one
primal wave
So it's just an art issue?
chilly flower
pretty much
not the first time either
the HVAR equipped Hellcat was similarly worse than previous art
vs what we have
and a similar angle of the real deal
and then there's the Skyraider
dear fucking god the Skyraider
primal wave
it's like they are doing charactachures of the planes intentionally badly for comedic effect?
chilly flower
dear fucking god the Skyraider
they managed to make it so generic it actually baffles me
compared to the errr
"purposeful-looking" original, yeah I'll say that
maiden citrus
based
chilly flower
it's like they are doing charactachures of the planes intentionally badly for co...
That might be the only explanation for how poorly they have been done but even then I kinda doubt it
primal wave
how do these rockets even work with ww2 technology?
chilly flower
In the USN's case they're on launch stubs and just ignite the rocket motor and fly off on their own in most cases once the pilot hits release on them (Tiny Tim being a special case), it's relatively straightforward
most other nations use rails in place of stubs but it varies a lot, and doesn't change much about how they work
primal wave
how are they "aimed"?
do they have explosives, what was the advantage to them being rocket propelled?
chilly flower
more or less through careful use of the gunsight, iirc there'd be particular methods using some of the notches on the gunsight (firing guns during an attack run on a surface target could also be used as a reference point)
primal wave
the development of weapons technology from basically a musket to rockets on an airplane in like 100 years is kinda wild
maiden citrus
one of the wright brothers was still alive when an enormous metal plane dropped the nuclear bombs on japan
quite a tech jump for a lifetime
primal wave
I still want to watch oppenheimer
The henry repeater was in 1860... not sure there was much rifling before that.
runic ermine
the development of weapons technology from basically a musket to rockets on an a...
to put in perspective. There were american civil war veterans who used muskets still alive when germany was fielding the stg44
primal wave
one of the wright brothers was still alive when an enormous metal plane dropped ...
that's also pretty wild
runic ermine
I also guess you could make the argument that there was a civil war veteran in the US army during ww1 when the russians were using the fedorov avtomat. Arguably the world's first assault rifle
chilly flower
do they have explosives, what was the advantage to them being rocket propelled?
Yes, they generally always contain a warhead
The advantage is that, as opposed to a bomb where you generally need to intersect with your target's course to hit, you can attack at much greater distances to increase aircraft survivability against anti-aircraft defenses (or suppress/destroy such defenses using rockets)
Furthermore, you can carry multiple to increase the chance of a hit or for more effectiveness for an equal weight of small bombs, and they're more useful against smaller, more nimble targets such as Destroyers than trying to racket them with bombs most of the time (not to mention unarmored cargo ships as well)
runic ermine
point is the tech jump is wild
maiden citrus
even more interestingly is the naval developments maybe, orville was alive when nearly all ships used sails, either as a backup or primary, and by the time he died, des moines was in the water
primal wave
Yes, they generally always contain a warhead
The advantage is that, as opposed t...
ah, it was distance you think
chilly flower
It's one of the advantages yeah
runic ermine
even more interestingly is the naval developments maybe, orville was alive when ...
and how Russia is currently the only country to still be using battlecrusiers
and armored trains
but there is a good reason for armored train usage
chilly flower
Ah, and for more contrast
someone else went out of their way to redraw it the right way 
maiden citrus
died with these rolling around
runic ermine
'battlecruisers'
her. Pyotr Velikiy, however she's gonna be retired when her sister comes back to service
chilly flower
They're only called Battlecruisers in the West
maiden citrus
and even then it's quite the stretch
runic ermine
They're only called Battlecruisers in the West
reminds me of how Italy and Germany called the P-40 a "heavy tank" when the allies called it a "medium tank"
the P in P-40 stands for pesante which means heavy in italian
maiden citrus
pheavy
chilly flower
heavy in contrast with previous tank designs, intended for the mountainous terrain of the north, yes
runic ermine
heavy in contrast with previous tank designs, intended for the mountainous terra...
yes
runic ermine
heavy in contrast with previous tank designs, intended for the mountainous terra...
however the tank with the largest gun that italy actually used was this. The Semovente da 105/25
like the name suggests it has a 105mm gun and was desgined as an SPG
so im kinda cheating by calling it a tank
mental tapir
Ah, and for more contrast
someone else went out of their way to redraw it the ri...
This plus the nerfed ordnance never fails to make me mald
mental tapir
What is the new plane? The Devastator doesn't have the right wing shape
Also I've seen some discussion that it may be the Consolidated TBY Sea Wolf?
chilly flower
I highly doubt it
while the art is scuffed, is still heavily resembles an Avenger in overall traits
chilly flower
a better angle for comparison using a model (gunpods can be ignored)
chilly flower
The super long cockpit matches tho, imo at least
look at the ball turret- it's disconnected enough to be closer to that of the Avenger
whereas the TBY's is continuous for the most part
Wings are far too different too
mental tapir
*Fair enough
chilly flower
better diagram for multiple views
compared to an Avenger
furthermore, the TBY has a centimetric radar pod installed in the right wing by default
Whereas only the TBF-1D, 1CD, TBM-1D, and -3D had a similar arrangement
It is far more likely to simply be a badly drawn Avenger
subtle prawn
mental tapir
Re: the mystery SSR plane
There's no visible rockets on it unlike the Fw 190 A-6/R6 so it's mostly copium, but if it's the TBM-3M variant with Tiny Tims I'll cream myself
mental tapir
there's no rockets on the HVAR Hellcat art
Nor on the Bf-109G, but they could possibly be explained by said rockets being much smaller
chilly flower
not really
In the case of the 109G, they're intended to be BR 21s but with a (fictional) AP warhead
and BR 21s are tube-launched and quite visible
vs the model
mental tapir
BR 21s are the rockets carried by the Fw 190 A-6/R6s; they're also called Wfr.Gr.21s
Bf-109Gs carry Panzerbrechend L/4.8 according to WOWS
chilly flower
I'm pretty certain that's referring to the specific rocket type used within, which again is a fictional AP round, as BR 21s were predominantly used for breaking up bomber formations with secondary use in some ground attack
It doesn't change that they're tube launched and would be quite visible on the model even with the given angle
chilly flower
the HVAR equipped Hellcat was similarly worse than previous art
Continuing on- as for the HVAR F6F, they should also be visible or be made visible to distinguish the equipment
and a photo, albeit one with the much more extensively used 5" FFAR
Furthermore, the Corsair has HVARs in it's own art
mental tapir
Furthermore, the Corsair has HVARs in it's own art
Allegedly could also have been 100 lb bombs, according to a Reddit discussion I had almost a year ago
But ye, point is that Manjuu does not do accurate plane sprites
eternal veldt
Manjuu's equipment drawing is mediocre at best
The twin bofors used to be a mess, and I don't think the mark 6 is updated whatsoever with the ridiculous barrel lengths
chilly flower
Allegedly could also have been 100 lb bombs, according to a Reddit discussion I ...
I really doubt that- four per wing, quite pointed and slender rather than being stubby
More importantly though is that you don't really see those pylons on Corsairs until the Korean War, when their primary role gets shifted to being bomb trucks in fighter-bomber missions, and on the F4U-4 and -5 models no less
Not really on the -1s this game represents
the zero length stubs for rockets (albeit this example is a -4 but still about the same)
and '50s -4s and -5s with them, with some variation
mental tapir
Are these photos from the China Lake Alumni website? Pretty cool
chilly flower
Nah, mix of sites
have used that one before though
solid mango
Ah, and for more contrast
someone else went out of their way to redraw it the ri...
That is beautiful
frozen kestrel
Quick question: How large would a 1/10 scale model of Prinz Eugen be?
maiden citrus
about 66 feet long
spring briar
frozen kestrel
Did the scaling and... she may or may not be incredibly unstable
zealous vine
Has there been any documented attempt at a 100± mm autoloader designed like an upside down 40mm Bofors
(or if that's an unlikely margin, let's say 70± mm)
Ammo fed from the bottom up into breech
subtle prawn
spring briar
runic ermine
Now ask them how many destoryers the Germans lost at narvik
rapid junco
Reminds of a Wehraboo saying some like that
But on the same day Scharnhost was sunk
Btw
I wonder what this guys consider what Bismarck did to Hood
Especially him saying "Super battleship"
runic ermine
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1736169394504441950
Lmao
fierce sparrow
silver crest
earliest person to be photographed
john adams, a shoemaker
1744-1849
born before USA was even a country and died just a few years before it went into a civil war
the guy was 11 when mozart was born
runic ermine
Crazy
manic latch
manic latch
@spring briar Shell
manic latch
"What the hell is it?"
"Load it!"
frozen kestrel
Just found this photo of (supposedly) Bismarck's fire control computer
runic ermine
Just found this photo of (supposedly) Bismarck's fire control computer
Neat
frozen kestrel
Also, quick question, what's a good resource for finding the Royal Navy's main turret designs? I'm modelling a fictional KGV, but I'd like to maintain accuracy
subtle prawn
You could always dig into the archives if you're willing to put in the work
frozen kestrel
What archives?
subtle prawn
cinder escarp
Hey, at least it's decently organized.
The US national archives are in-person as well, but good god there is no organization
manic latch
quasi vortex
Hi, I just want to ask, shouldn't Noshiro having 3 main guns in Azur Lane instead of just 2?
shy grail
You mean the art? Yeah, although looks like it got traded for 2 swords
quasi vortex
You mean the art? Yeah, although looks like it got traded for 2 swords
Yeah, cause I would love to get her 1/7 figure, I would not feel right if it's not right in historical aspect (yeah I am weird)
runic ermine
Since the battle of the bulge campaign was released for enlisted I want to share a story about the battle
During Operation Greif German forces disgused themselves as American soldiers and went behind enemy lines in order to cause chaos. Overall the operation was a stratigic failure but a psycological victory. The Americans became very paranoid when they found out about the operation. Soon, MPs at checkpoints asked soldiers and officers questions about America, things like sports teams and celebrities. When Omar Bradley was stopped at a checkpoint he was asked "What is the capital of Illinois?" He correctly awsnered "Springfield". The MP thought that it was Chicago and arrested his own superior officer
History has shown us many times that Americans are bad at geography
strong plank
Nah Chicago’s just talked about much more than Springfield
runic ermine
Nah Chicago’s just talked about much more than Springfield
But it's not the captial
strong plank
Or anywhere else In Illinois
runic ermine
Or anywhere else In Illinois
but it's still kinda funny
imagine arresting what is essentially your boss
strong plank
A good comparison is like
runic ermine
A good comparison is like
all the other times americans have been bad at geography?
strong plank
the capital of California is Sacramento
But when you think California, which cities do you think of?
strong plank
exactly
runic ermine
you asked a question and dont know the answer and end up arresting your superior officer
humble mulch
During Operation Greif German forces disgused themselves as American soldiers an...
As someone from Illinois and Chicago can confirm this does does still happen
Another well-known thing like that (during D-Day I believe) was "Flash" with the needed response being "Thunder" cause it's hard for Germans to say it right
strong plank
nvm
runic ermine
Another well-known thing like that (during D-Day I believe) was "Flash" with the...
Yeah I remember hearing about that
spiral cedar
Did an Iowa-Yamato immune zone comparison
Which I will copy paste here
Well, this was a rather interesting result.
First, some caveats. This is only the 90° target angle case, aka flat broadside, which makes it the best case scenario for belt penetration. Under more realistic engagement target aspects, expect to be able to subtract a few thousand more yards from the inner immune zones on average, depending on engagement parameters.
Additionally, this is with my "standard" machinery immune zone comparison, which means a) the shell must be effective ("fit to burst"), since a dud shell or shell fragments is much less likely to hit something vital, and b) the armor area in question is at least 10% of the target area of the horizontal or vertical protective surfaces at penetration distances (so some small sliver that would be hit only 3% of the time would be ignored).
For the Iowa-Yamato cases, this breaks down as follows:
I used the 1944+ US 16" AP Mark 8 Mod 8 shells for this comparison, which I felt was reasonable given the lack of fleet engagements between the US and Japanese battlelines in 1943. If you want a 1943 specific case, feel free to lop off a few thousand yards off Yamato's inner immune zone in your head. The outer immune zone is largely unaffected.
I also did separate calculations for the use of Iowa's 'special' charges that give her shells the same 2300 fps MV as they would out of the 16"/45 Mark 6. These special charges were issued to the ships in wartime and would have been used to improve deck penetration in exactly this scenario (long to extreme range against capital ships), but I will provide values without them just for completeness.
I include Yamato's deck edge slopes (30mm thicker, but presenting an angle 7° more favorable for penetration) in this analysis since they take up about 18% of the target area for deck hits at penetration ranges, which satisfies my usual 10% target area criterion. If you want to exclude these and only look at hits to the flat deck, I have also included those values separately.
Now, for the numbers we've all been waiting for.
Yamato immune zone (against US 16"/50 Mark 7 AP Mark 8 Mod 8)
SUMMARY
**Immune zone - 22000-27000 yards (5000 yards wide)**
"Completely" immune zone - 25000-27000 yards (2000 yards wide) [no holding of main belt or main armor deck]
Standard charge only immune zone - 22000-30000 yards (8000 yards wide)
Flat deck only immune zone - 22000-30000 yards (8000 yards wide)
Iowa immune zone (against JPN 46cm/45 Type 94 APC Type 91/1)
SUMMARY
**Immune zone - 23000-32000 yards (9000 yards wide)**
"Completely" immune zone - 28000-32000 yards (4000 yards wide) [no holing of main belt or main armor deck]
A more detailed breakdown is as follows:
At a 90° target angle,
Iowa pierces Yamato's:
Main belt
0-21k yards - effective
22-24k yards - partial
25k+ - no holing
Flat deck, special charge
0-30k - no holing
31-36k - complete
Flat deck, standard charge
0-33k - no holing
34-42k - complete
Deck edge, special charge
0-27k - no holing
28-36k - complete
Deck edge, standard charge
0-30k - no holing
31-42k - complete
Conversely, Yamato pierces Iowa's:
Main belt
0-22k - effective
23-27k - ineffective
28k+ - no holing
Flat deck
0-32k - no holing
33-45k - complete
maiden citrus
lime scarab
Quick question but were the bismark class concept a bad design for a warship?
spiral cedar
Some aspects were fine, others not so much
lime scarab
What kinda of aspects
spiral cedar
Relative to the preceding Scharnhorsts, the better machinery reliability, seakeeping, and endurance was a plus for Germany
The surface fire control system was overall fairly good
The armor layout selected has some benefits against the early war Royal Navy, which though not the intended opponent was the actual opponent
The main guns and their mountings generally proved reliable and fairly accurate in service
On the demerit column
Protection of the firepower was below average
The single layer main armor deck was structurally deficient
The anti-aircraft battery initially had significant teething issues
The three-shaft propulsion was rather inefficient in practice
The deck protection was very bad
The main magazines were placed directly under the main armor deck
The torpedo protection system had few layers, had a poor liquid loading arrangement, and had a structural discontinuity
The below water main belt depth was below average
There are a lot of minor ups and downs besides these
Overall it was fine, but it's hard to call it bad as an assemblage except in some specific areas or circumstances, relative to its peers
lime scarab
So basically it was a ok warship concept but it need improvements
flat copper
It’s the best they could make out of an outdated design philosophy
lime scarab
So basically she was a ww1 concept but updated to add more ww2 warships concepts
spiral cedar
I mean, technically ships with All or Nothing armor are a 19th century concept updated with new concepts
It's less a WWI way of doing things and more of a German way of doing things
lime scarab
Makes sense
flat copper
It's less a WWI way of doing things and more of a German way of doing things
Could you help explain why they weren’t able to make a 15 inch gun turret that had three barrels? Or even make a ship with a bigger gun?
spiral cedar
Kriegsmarine turret designs tended to use shell hoists that came up alongside rather than behind a gun. This meant that the more guns in a turret, the proportionally larger the turret became. It got so bad that German designs for quad main guns ended up heavier than a pair of twins, which is the reverse of other navies. The Scharnhorsts for example had abnormally large 11" turrets, wide enough that you could fit a US 14"/50 triple turret in the barbette. The Bismarcks switched to a more conventional 4 x twin layout due to this and due to fire control doctrine preferences that favored balanced fore-aft firepower
flat copper
Kriegsmarine turret designs tended to use shell hoists that came up alongside ra...
So it was because of poorer design philosophies compared to everyone else?
lime scarab
I mean every warship from different navy’s have problem
flat copper
Not as bad as this though
spiral cedar
So it was because of poorer design philosophies compared to everyone else?
The benefit was meant to be a faster time to move the shell from the hoist to the breech
flat copper
But in reality? (Since you said “meant to”)
lime scarab
Not as bad as this though
Have you herd of north Carolina’s vibrating hull problem when she was commissioned
flat copper
Have you herd of north Carolina’s vibrating hull problem when she was commission...
I have.
spiral cedar
The horizontal sliding breech was meant to speed the process up; with the shell popping up into the turret already aligned with the gun, the shell could be moved in line with the breech and ready to be rammed in more quickly, shaving a few seconds off the loading cycle
lime scarab
I have.
Sure it got fixed, but it was a serious problem when firing the turrets and causing the hull vibrating
spiral cedar
While it did, indeed, save a few seconds off the loading cycle, it has to be weighed against the possible benefit of instead fitting larger guns into the same space (e.g. you can fit US 16"/45 twins in the space of a Bismarck 15" twin)
flat copper
While it did, indeed, save a few seconds off the loading cycle, it has to be wei...
I had a feeling that was the downside to that design.
spiral cedar
Plus, of course, German firing in actual combat was usually not faster than other nations
Which sort of removes the whole point
lime scarab
Plus, of course, German firing in actual combat was usually not faster than othe...
So basically there turrets design suck
spiral cedar
I suppose, yeah
There are also other ways to improve the salvo interval for BB main guns
flat copper
Can I guess that the 20 years of not being allowed to continue building ships to the same degree as other nations also be a limiting factor in their ship designs
spiral cedar
Nagato for example managed a very rapid loading cycle (at low elevation, though) by devising a clever system to ram all four powder bags in a single stroke
wintry moat
And you have stuff with Rodney shaking the entire ship
spiral cedar
Dunkerque and Richelieu were intended to have an improved loading cycle at longer ranges with all-angle loading, meaning the guns didn't have to depress to loading angle and then elevate to firing angle each salvo. In practice this was limited to a max of 15 degrees, which is better than the 0-5 degrees of most navies and still gets you to long range, but not extreme range
wintry moat
and blowing out windows
spiral cedar
Sure it got fixed, but it was a serious problem when firing the turrets and caus...
The vibration issues were with the propulsion rather than the guns
lime scarab
The vibration issues were with the propulsion rather than the guns
O my bad but it was pretty a bad night problem I’m assuming
spiral cedar
The problem was that at high speeds, the propellor RPMs would resonate, causing shaking of the aloft fire control systems and risking damage to the machinery
It should be noted that the worst of the speed restrictions were lifted before 1942
On the first builders' trial of the new post-war battleship NORTH CAROLINA (BB55), conducted on 19 and 20 May 1941, severe fore-and-aft vibration of the propeller shafting, the main reduction-gear units, the main turbines, the main condensers, and other parts of the propelling machinery was encountered. In fact, the vibration of the high-pressure and hightemperature main steam lines was so great that it was considered unsafe to run the vessel at a speed greater than 25 1/2 knots on the first trial. The designed trial speed was 27 1/2 knots.
And this was quickly raised, albeit with some restrictions, after modifications and testing.
The second trials were held on 27 May 1941 and a speed of more than 26 1/2 knots was attained. The propellers used during both these trials were the propellers originally designed for this class of ship; the inboard propellers were 4-bladed and the outboard propellers were 3-bladed. All propellers turned outward when going ahead.
The second builders' trials of the USS WASHINGTON, built by the Philadelphia Navy Yard, were held on 21 June 1941. For these trials the original 3-bladed outboard propellers were cut down from a diameter of 17 feet 3 inches to a diameter of 16 feet 4 5/8 inches and they were installed on the inboard shafts, with the expectation that resonance in the longitudinal mode would then be above the running range of the machinery… With this propeller combination a speed of over 27 knots was attained on the WASHINGTON. The vibration at that speed was not so severe as to endanger any part of the power plant but it was still sufficient to interfere seriously with operation of some of the gun directors.
So while 25.5 knots was a safety restriction imposed in May 1941, by June 1941 Washington could safely operate at 27 knots, albeit with loss of gunnery accuracy.
lime scarab
The problem was that at high speeds, the propellor RPMs would resonate, causing ...
Which caused her to go back to the dry dock a lot
spiral cedar
Which caused her to go back to the dry dock a lot
Yeah, they continued to experiment as the war went on
lime scarab
That’s good to hear they kind dissolve it
flat copper
Wasn’t Washington pretty accurate when Willis Lee was on board her?
spiral cedar
Not just when he's aboard
flat copper
Ah right.
spiral cedar
And of course, most of the time you aren't zipping around at flank speed
Most of 2nd Guadalcanal for example was fought at like 20 knots
Which wouldn't cause vibration issues
flat copper
And still enough to allow Washington to get the drop on Kirishima. Though I give props to South Dakota’s armor for it holding up to the punishment. Though it’s a shame she had to experience that punishment.
lime scarab
And still enough to allow Washington to get the drop on Kirishima. Though I give...
Yeah a lot of us warships got a beating during the war
flat copper
Yeah a lot of us warships got a beating during the war
Well in South Dakota’s case she was suffering electrical issues and wasn’t able to properly fight back against the Japanese fleet there. They even managed to shoot out her radar.
lime scarab
Well in South Dakota’s case she was suffering electrical issues and wasn’t able ...
Yeah that sucks
flat copper
At least she lived through it. Kirishima got slaughtered by Washington though at point blank range.
strong plank
Kriegsmarine turret designs tended to use shell hoists that came up alongside ra...
adding onto this
well, more the 'why couldn't they make a bigger gun'
it's not quite as simple as just sizing up
not all guns are created equal, even if they're the same diameter
good example of this is the royal navy's experience with 16 inch guns
the Nelsons' guns had enough issues that it was decided to just equip the KGVs with 14-inch guns and to develop new 16-inch guns for the Lions
grave ravine
not all guns are created equal, even if they're the same diameter
An interesting sidebar to this is that Bismarck's 15" guns themselves were heavier than most 16" guns
alpine onyx
Very important thing I wanna add is that all German turrets that had two or more guns of 203mm or larger would have two auxiliary hoists that could each bring shell and powder into the gun house, in case a main hoist breaks (so Scharnhorst, for instance, had five fully fleged hoists). As a result the barbette width ballooned, loading floors became bigger, and more space was needed in the gunhouse to handle the ammo.
spring briar
What’s the barbette thickness, height and diameter on Scharn?
Of both front turrets
And I also need her deck thicknesses
Actually nvm
alpine onyx
10.4m inner barbette thickness, height should be around 6m, 350mm all the way, but it was somewhat conical so the bottom barbette diameter is more like 11m
alpine onyx
Think it was 120mm
Should be 100mm, two thirds of the forward sloped plate which was 150mm
(Just like on the Hippers it was 70mm flat and 105mm sloped)
360mm face, 150mm forward slope, 100mm flat roof, 80mm rear slope, 170mm rear wall, 200mm flat side, 120mm forward side slope, 110mm side slope
spring briar
manic latch
360mm face, 150mm forward slope, 100mm flat roof, 80mm rear slope, 170mm rear wa...
Admiral Kuznetsov was proposing the idea to make next batch Soyuz's turrets to be more like Bismarck style to ease of production
Maybe that's what GK's turret design blueprint would be used for
alpine onyx
Gotta get that quintuple hoist
ivory ridge
I feel like the discussion currently going on in lore would be more fit for here 
drifting delta
I feel like the discussion currently going on in lore would be more fit for here...
I made a very simple statement and a guy didn't like it and it went down from there
Too busy to keep going now though.
ivory ridge
drifting delta
I mean not like there was anything much else to say.
subtle prawn
manic latch
I feel like the discussion currently going on in lore would be more fit for here...
Can't see
manic latch
I made a very simple statement and a guy didn't like it and it went down from th...
What happened 
ivory ridge
Can't see <:angerkot:1021570918809616504>
me neither ( )
drifting delta
What happened <:catathome:1123623565057609768>
Guys were discussing sub records by navies, I stated torricelli has the largest warship kill by deck gun, one guy didn't like that, and the discussion went down from there.
Then, I felt kinda guilty discussing that stuff in the lore section.
And they are still going right now.
Although they changed subjects.
I am afraid I derailed the whole section.
humble mulch
I am afraid I derailed the whole section.<:Ehhssex:611004140046254080>
Nah you are all good lore does that from time to time, large overlap of intrests
manic latch
Nah you are all good lore does that from time to time, large overlap of intrests
Are they banned from lore for it tho?
Since you agree it's "time to time"?
somber knoll
the Nelsons' guns had enough issues that it was decided to just equip the KGVs w...
The issue here is that the Admiralty was on a good track to develop the 381 Mark 2s but got cucked by Treaty restrictions.
Tho to be fair, having the same design aspects as the KGV's 14 inchers would have made these guns get similar if not identical reliability issues (I would say this could be negated a bit by having a triple turret design, but still)
viscid estuary
@paper birch gigachad lincoln going "fine then i'll do it myself"
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1391225204815314945.html
spiral cedar
https://www.savasbeatie.com/lincoln-takes-command-the-campaign-to-seize-norfolk-and-the-destruction-of-the-css-virginia/
There's a book on it too
spiral cedar
#memes
hallow roost
Are there any anti-sub torpedoes launched from a ship that were made before the mk35? I know there's the fido, but those are deployed with planes
desert agate
Haha Balkan funny good joke haha I laugh so hard
autumn sorrel
Nah, I like Czech more
subtle prawn
Czech it out baby
chilly flower
Are there any anti-sub torpedoes launched from a ship that were made before the ...
Kinda- the Mark 27 (also called "Cutie"), which is the Fido adapted for launch from a Submarine
That said it was primarily meant to be used as a defensive weapon against escorts rather than as an ASW weapon (though I imagine you could use it as such in some specific scenarios, submarines sinking other subs on the surface was surprisingly common)
subtle prawn
Since you're here rn Pretz, do you know if the Avengers made by General Motors had any major differences compared to the ones made by Grumman?
chilly flower
Depends per variant, though even just manufacturing was different in some ways iirc (though I don't really have details for minor changes like that)
One of the more notable variants would be the TBM-3, based on the TBF-1C model but with two intakes, an uprated engine, and other things
silver crest
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
remote monolith
I wonder what kind of super plant grows in Argentina for it to consistently birth gigantic freaks of nature
this is around the 4th ultra huge sauropod from the area
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
high pelican
I have just educated myself on the irl history of Eldridge and I'm absolutely fascinated
I adore a good conspiracy theory
strong plank
The Eldridge theory is funny bc the creator just
Didn’t know canals existed
and went “bro there’s no way a ship could get from point A to B that fast”
desert agate
shrewd pecan
spring briar
dim rover
wintry moat
Why she missing a barrel?
spring briar
Shell blew up in the barrel at Dakar
carmine geyser
b o t e. r i c h i e
Never saw this picture in such a high quality
How did you do ?
eternal veldt
All of her barrels in turret 2 except IIRC the leftmost one are busted
Breech flameout
Fortunately, Jean Bart is available for cannibalization
verbal oasis
But it wasn’t the Guns fault that they busted. It’s the weird shells the French thought where a good idea. They where hollow in the back part and had a plug for a poison gas canister. The pressure from the gunpowder shattered the shells in the barrel, which plugged them or broke the barrels.
eternal veldt
Its not particularly weird, the caps were simply not loaded in the hasty conditions Richelieu departed in.
Without the caps, the shells don't perform as expected and things go wrong.
spring briar
manic latch
frail flicker
Sad that this picture was only taken for propaganda since there must have been other soldiers nearby
manic latch
God I love this meme
grave ravine
God I love this meme
The silliest thing is that the atomic bomb program wasn't even the most expensive American weapons development program of the war
B-29 cost more
frozen kestrel
God I love this meme
This is so fucking funny to me
manic latch
@tough quail
manic latch
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1737648601634078761
Wait what
Garibaldi had it
desert agate
Wasnt she fitted for but not with?
spiral cedar
Apart from some minor changes, much of the latter's rebuilding included four launchers for the U.S. designed UGM-27 Polaris nuclear ballistic missiles. The US never provided the missiles. Instead the Italian government set to develop an indigenous missile, called Alfa. The propulsion system remained the same.
eternal veldt
manic latch
> Apart from some minor changes, much of the latter's rebuilding included four l...
Oh
chilly osprey
Garibaldi was fitted with all systems necessary and did inert launch tests, but never actually received any Polaris to launch.
strong mountain
solid mango
Hallo people, it appears i had been scrolling tru Pixiv and came across this magnificent thing, i do not know its name, all I know is it is italian, I need its name
eternal veldt
Faa di Bruno
strong plank
Looks like a monitor
solid mango
Still looks hot 
cinder escarp
somber knoll
moar bote
shy grail
Actually self-propeller barge, not sure exactly what the difference is though
chilly osprey
*Pontoon
ivory ridge
La Creatura
chilly osprey
Main thing is that these were much more shallow-draft vessels meant to operate in the lagooms and river deltas of Veneto, moving further inland then you could usually get with a traditional monitor.
They were there to provide heavy artillery for the army, since the army itself faced a shortage of heavy artillery for much of WWI.
wild tendon
Does anybody know any good and in depth videos on surface engagement theory between different fleets for ww2
solid mango
manic latch
shrewd pecan
<@167796048574545920> https://warthunder.com/en/news/8675-development-hull-armor...
at some point gaijin is going to realize US mains do not want the same side graded tank for the 4th time in a row
they keep bringing up the only 5 hulls having DU armor despite the community repeatedly requesting a abrams with more hull armor and haven’t just given them one of the DU hull test abrams
In terms of the abrams spall liner/spall protection ordeal I have no fucking idea if the M1 has one beyond apparently CATTB having one
manic latch
Secret document leak time
manic latch
<:GarfTrollge:902951789924585513> they keep bringing up the only 5 hulls having ...
I found this claim interesting
"Additionally, a significant weight increase from such an armor package would lead to overloading the first pair of torsion bars, which already are under an increased load on the M1 series due to the placement of the frontal armor being positioned significantly far towards the front of the hull, as well as the large armored fuel tanks either side of the driver."
shrewd pecan
Im not sure on it since both the M1A2sepv3 and those DU hull abrams managed it
idk the entire ordeal is just dumb since it’s people arguing over a virtual tank that will never be accurate to the actual thing
and the vehicle ingame just ending up either underperforming or dead on arrival due to power creep because gaijin keeps adding variants that are a decade older than the competition
manic latch
They should have gave it M829A3 ye
civic aspen
Is there a historical reason why USS Guam has stars for her pupil?
strong plank
Because Dish saw how popular Oshi no Ko was and wanted some of that
civic aspen
so it's modern history
