I really want a tomcat...
#history
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junior trench
because the F-15's fuselage is designed for lift, just like the F-14
also
the answer to the losing wing thing
is both
an F-14 lost half a wing in '91
and then there's the Israeli 
who lost a whole one
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Ahhh no wonder I was confused
shrewd pecan
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Too bad they can't tank the damage like the A10
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The A10 was designed for close air support, down and dirty low and fast
junior trench
which is why it sucked at it
shrewd pecan
junior trench
and was pulled off the frontline
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...
junior trench
and sent to bully the little league of Iraqi units
shrewd pecan
"Why is my slow airframe taking such bad attrition to air defense?"
"Why is my plane meant for CAS without a FLIR causing so many friendly fire deaths?"
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It was designed to get down and dirty and thus had to be cheep to build, fly and easy to maintain
junior trench
it did none of those things
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Real engineering did a good video about it
shrewd pecan
it was easy to maintain but it certainly is not survivable
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Twin engines above the rear tail? Redundant control systems? Landing gear that didn't retract all the way just in case? A titanium tub for the cockpit?
junior trench
and how did that work out for it again?
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Plenty of pilots coming back safely
Even with panels ripped off and holes everywhere
8 chaff and flares dispensers per wing
And the air force wants to get rid of it cause they believe newer planes can do what it does and because it's ugly
Sure i get the somewhat ugly part
shrewd pecan
what is
a A-10 going to do
in any scenario the US is expecting to face in either the Pacific or Europe
and be survivable in the face of S-400, HQ-9 or any of the other modern air defense systems being fielded
junior trench
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/0691horner/
Q: Did the war have any effect on the Air Force’s view of the A-10
A: No. People misread that. People were saying that airplanes are too sophisticated and that they wouldn’t work in the desert, that you didn’t need all this high technology, that simple and reliable was better, and all that.
Well, first of all, complex does not mean unreliable. We’re finding that out. For example, you have a watch that uses transistors rather than a spring. It’s infinitely more reliable than the windup watch that you had years ago. That’s what we’re finding in the airplanes.
Those people . . . were always championing the A-10. As the A-10 reaches the end of its life cycle– and it’s approaching that now–it’s time to replace it, just like we replace every airplane, including, right now, some early versions of the F-16.
Since the line was discontinued, [the A-10’s champions] want to build another A-10 of some kind. The point we were making was that we have F-16s that do the same job.
Then you come to people who have their own reasons-good reasons to them, but they don’t necessarily compute to me-who want to hang onto the A-10 because of the gun. Well, the gun’s an excellent weapon, but you’ll find that most of the tank kills by the A-10 were done with Mavericks and bombs. So the idea that the gun is the absolute wonder of the world is not true
shrewd pecan
also I completely forgot the USMC as still flying OV-10s during the gulf war
"1/18 0610Z
Loss
OV-10
USMC
Ras A Mishab
IR-SAM"
junior trench
Q: This conflict has shown that
A: It shows that the gun has a lot of utility, which we always knew, but it isn’t the principal tank-killer on the A-IO. The [Imaging Infrared] Maverick is the big hero there. That was used by the A-10s and the F-16s very, very effectively in places like Khafji.
The other problem is that the A-10 is vulnerable to hits because its speed is limited. It’s a function of thrust, it’s not a function of anything else. We had a lot of A-10s take a lot of ground fire hits. Quite frankly, we pulled the A-10s back from going up around the Republican Guard and kept them on Iraq’s [less formidable] front-line units. That’s fine if you have a force that allows you to do that. In this case, we had F-16s to go after the Republican Guard.
Q: What types of targets did you use the F-111 for
A: The -117, the -111, and the F-15E and, to some extent, the F-16 LANTIRN aircraft all did much the same work. They were most useful against hard-point targets, bunkers, aircraft shelters, bridges, the things you saw on television. . . . They were very efficient. We did adapt the F-15E with 500-pound bombs to hit individual tanks. They would go out and take out 100 to 200 tanks a night. We called it “tank plinking.”
shrewd pecan
F-111 & F-15E Iraqi tank death champions
junior trench
> Q: This conflict has shown that
>
> A: It shows that the gun has a lot of uti...
Q: At what point did you do that
A: I think I had fourteen airplanes sitting on the ramp having battle damage repaired, and I lost two A- 10s in one day [February 15], and I said, “I’ve had enough of this.” It was when we really started to go after the Republican Guard.
Initially, much of the air assets were devoted to strategic targets, to make sure we got those down, while we were also hitting the frontline forces. As we killed off the research and development stuff-storage, those kinds of targets-we brought more and more assets into the Kuwait Theater of Operation. We really started heating the battle up in the KTO.
manic latch
@shrewd pecan gaze upon this
shrewd pecan
Not enough Terriers & Talos's
tacit sage
I’m gonna say, I’m liking the Tempesta Shipyard mini event so far. I knew a good portion of some of the information for old ships like what they were sharing, but I find it cool that they’re getting into the actual nitty and gritty and taking about this stuff. It’s always nice when people can learn something while having fun.
eternal veldt
The facts are mostly on point, but the wording is iffy at times
Case in point, the anti-fouling section at least for EN - It's true that tar and pitch are used as "anti-fouling" - but specific "anti-fouling paint" isn't really there until the 19th century. And prior to that, you also have the precursor that is copper sheathing - though safe to say, the ships that are recently introduced do not have them.
I also wish they would talk about the practice of careening - a dangerous, labourous task of dragging your ship to the beach/low water levels, ground it, then roll it over to clean the bottom - as it was a rather common practice at the time.
While a competent crew could careen their ship without outside assistance, it was a laborious task. In early-1843, HMS Formidable was careened at Malta Dockyard to carry out repairs after the ship had grounded a few weeks earlier. An account of the work done notes that every movable item on the ship had to be taken off.
amusingly enough, Wikipedia has this little tidbit.
Of course the ship is called Formidable.
strong plank
And the air force wants to get rid of it cause they believe newer planes can do ...
The Air Force is getting rid of it because the damn thing is more expensive than an F35 and much less capable
Air Force liked the A-10 when it was adopted bc it could use the AGM-65 Maverick
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The Air Force is getting rid of it because the damn thing is more expensive than...
Flight cost or procurement
strong plank
Upgrade costs
It costs more to modernize an A-10 than it does to just buy an F-35
modern conflict is all about information, being able to rapidly identify and service targets
the base A-10 is so barebones that the pilot has to visually ID targets with a pair of binoculars
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And what would happen if the pilot isn't able to get all the info if any info at all even with all this interconnectivity between newer gen aircraft
strong plank
Well friendly fire is one possibility
hell friendly fire is probably the thing the A-10 is best at
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Sometimes, newer isn't always better
junior trench
trying to harp on interconnectivity is kinda weird
because you're not accounting for what built in sensors on the F-35 are like at all
like the radar alone can already produce images that reflect a lawn mower's path through a completely mowed field
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Synthetic aperture radar does that, not active scanned array
strong plank
Sometimes, newer isn't always better
We’re not talking about newer vs current
We’re talking about newer vs obsolete
strong plank
Lol what
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If it ain't broke, don't fix it
junior trench
If it ain't broke, don't fix it
it was incredibly broken
strong plank
The A-10 is broke
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Brokenly op
strong plank
Against friendlies maybe
strong mountain
☝️
humble mulch
Lmao
junior trench
the newer variants of the A-10 are flying the same profile as normal fighters these days
they sit at altitude with PGMs and a retrofitted FLIR
and they consume stupid amount of money doing so
and can't do it in a contested environment
strong plank
Against friendlies maybe
junior trench
it's the sort of mission you can do with Super Tucs and Sky Wardens
strong plank
they’ve been trying to kill this thing since 2015
junior trench
which is why planes like that are a thing
because the A-10 is comedically expensive to operate under conditions permissible to it
and incapable of justifying its cost under conditions hostile to it
tl;dr
it's not low end enough for the low end
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The A10 costs 19k per flight hour
junior trench
and it's nowhere near high end enough to survive actual opposition
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Do you have a better idea for a plane that can do what the A10 was designed to do?
junior trench
is this some sort of joke
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Honest question
junior trench
maybe stop being obtuse, scroll up, and read what was already said hours ago
strong plank
Do you have a better idea for a plane that can do what the A10 was designed to d...
Do you know what it is that the A-10 was designed to do
Hint: it has nothing to do with the gun
junior trench
it feels like pigeon chess at this point...
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Do you know what it is that the A-10 was designed to do
Yes, to get down and dirty fly really low to the ground and shred soviet tanks going through a valley in Germany should the cold war turn hit
strong plank
The A-10 was designed to be an attack jet that could use the AGM-65 to take out enemy tanks
the whole “it’s a gunfighter” song and dance is just a PR line from after the gulf war
humble mulch
Also being a forward air observer but idk how well it does that
It's a normal CAS plane tho at the end of the day, and we have plenty of stuff that can do its job better in this day and age
humble mulch
the whole “it’s a gunfighter” song and dance is just a PR line from after the gu...
Who knew planes could get stolen Valor
still can't get over how they counted kills for it
junior trench
Also being a forward air observer but idk how well it does that
worse than other fighters until very recently
because it only recently got FLIR
humble mulch
Makes sense lol
junior trench
and there's only one aircraft in inventory with a spherical FLIR... which come to think of it was need a new name for that
considering the "Forward Looking" part is kind of being superceded
desert agate
Do you have a better idea for a plane that can do what the A10 was designed to d...
there is no better CAS platform on the planet right now than the F/A-18F Super Hornet
a close second is the F-15EX
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But can it rip apart tank armour like its butter like the A10 can?
desert agate
the only reason why F-35 doesnt top the list is because it doesn't have its full weapons suite yet
desert agate
But can it rip apart tank armour like its butter like the A10 can?
Super Hornets/Eagles can do the exact same thing with the benefit of being at extreme altitude and range, and thus relatively invulnerable to enemy AA/SAMs
the A-10s gun cannot significantly harm most modern tanks from most angles
strong plank
where multiple passes on target M60s resulted in only a 60% kill rate
desert agate
it requires missiles to do so
and if you're using missiles
you may as well use them from extreme altitude where hostile SAMs cant touch you
the A-10 cannot operate at those altitudes
thorn trail
wasn't that the reason for the a10 pilot coloring book meme
junior trench
yup
strong plank
the thing that made the A-10 a decent tank killer in the 90s was that it was compatible with the AF’s main anti-tank missile, the Maverick
desert agate
altitudes the A-10 does operate at are vulnerable to MANPADS, SAMs and even just regular ground fire from automatic weapons
thorn trail
on how the 30mm couldn't pen tanks of that era unless it was some stupid fuck angles where the plane can't even do
desert agate
why risk taking damage that other planes can easily avoid
while doing the same job and being better at it
thorn trail
also the best tank busting weapon is a bomb
desert agate
JASSM:
thorn trail
technically the JASSM is a bomb
junior trench
huh
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And what about a situation where bombs and missiles can't be used, such as if the enemy has missile Countermeasures which are growing more and more advanced
junior trench
JASSM is a cruise missile
thorn trail
it's a joke cleve
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Ever heard of Countermeasures?
desert agate
And what about a situation where bombs and missiles can't be used, such as if th...
modern missiles are increasingly able to counter-countermeasures and you also can't really counter a dumb bomb
junior trench
And what about a situation where bombs and missiles can't be used, such as if th...
are you missing the obvious corollary of that scenario
strong plank
lol what
humble mulch
If bombs and missles can't be used why the hell would you try a gun run
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If bombs and missles can't be used why the hell would you try a gun run
If all else fails
humble mulch
It's gun already
thorn trail
if the enemy has missile countermeasures, the a-10 has way more problems than the Fighter bombers
humble mulch
Is a failure
desert agate
also modern televisual missiles are incredibly difficult to jam
you'd have to jam the data-link between the missile and the launching aircraft, not the missiles own targeting systems, not an easy feat
junior trench
GBU-53/B style tri-mode seekers are a thing now
strong plank
“missile jamming” is not going to magically make 30mm penetrate more armor than it can
junior trench
and horrifyingly, they're cheap
humble mulch
In that situation just send an F-35
What are those Cleve?
Fire and forget missiles?
junior trench
fire and forget glide bombs
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“missile jamming” is not going to magically make 30mm penetrate more armor than ...
Did you also know the A10 has uranium rounds amongst its ammo?
thorn trail
...
junior trench
with laser, radar, GPS/INS, and IR guidance
thorn trail
ah yes 30mm uranium rounds
junior trench
but the trimode seeker isn't really platform limited
thorn trail
magically penetrating tank armor
desert agate
id also note that... not a single tank currently in service has an EW suite capable of defeating, really any modern missiles CCM
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magically penetrating tank armor
It's material science
junior trench
oh ho?
thorn trail
tank armor can take a hit from 105mm and above sabot rounds
desert agate
in fact, most tanks dont really have a capable EW suite
junior trench
you want to try pulling that card?
are you familiar with Newton's approximation for the impact depth?
strong plank
Oh hey I found the funny report
strong plank
thorn trail
6
strong plank
the ratio of impacts to rounds fired was 0.1
the ratio of actual penetrations to impacts was .18
junior trench
expected to pen M47s
thorn trail
uh that's uh
an average of 27 rounds pen for a full dump
...
27 rounds sure as hell can't fucking permanently disable a tank
thorn trail
yeah there was a report I read about uh
junior trench
I kind of lose track because of how many there are
thorn trail
that it takes less than 6 hrs to fix a tank that's mission disabled from an A-10 attack
desert agate
its almost like these things have been extensively tested over the A-10s uh.. 40 years of service
strong plank
or is this a different report from the *other* one
desert agate
honestly that alone is reason enough to retire the a-10
these airframes are ancient
they need a lot of work to keep them flight worthy and to be honest i wouldnt be surprised if under combat strain they just fell apart
thorn trail
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA085713
oh wait it's the same report I sent
thorn trail
they need a lot of work to keep them flight worthy and to be honest i wouldnt be...
I read somewhere that it takes almost the same amount of man-hours to get an A-10 ready as an F-15E
desert agate
they may be relatively cheap but thats just beause of the simplicity of the systems involved, fact is theyre not doing much good for anyone in their current state
thorn trail
Don't quote me on that tho because I don't remember where i read it
junior trench
the existence of things like APKWS also really just make the 30mm gun for a2g incredibly irrelevant
the fucking
desert agate
it's like the argument to keep the F-111 in service, but at least that plane was incredibly good at what it was designed to do
junior trench
12 meter CEP from 4km with the 30mm
compared to the half meter CEP of APKWS's 70mm HEAT rockets from 11km
thorn trail
if the F-111 wasn't expensive do you think it still has a role in the modern era?
desert agate
absolutely
manic latch
if the F-111 wasn't expensive do you think it still has a role in the modern era...
Missile truck
desert agate
the issue is that what makes it so capable is precisely why it was so expensive
manic latch
Its the American Su-24 ish
strong plank
I’m not super super familiar with the F-111 and its program but iirc wasn’t its issue like
thorn trail
also speaking of expensive, you know if you really want to use the A-10 for low level CAS in a hostile environment, why not use an attack helicopter that would have I presume better battlefield awareness than an A-10
strong plank
less about the aircraft itself and more about macnamara making all the branches combine requirements into 1 fighter
manic latch
also speaking of expensive, you know if you really want to use the A-10 for low ...
Helis are even weaker to manpads and lacks more speed
desert agate
but with modern avionics and EW capabilities, the F-111 would be unparalleled in the role of strike aircraft with air supremacy capability
junior trench
oh yeah
desert agate
eeeh
junior trench
the funny thing where the A-10 doesn't even have a radar
meanwhile Longbow Apaches behind terrain
strong plank
I’m unironically considering doing my senior thesis on the F-111 program
strong plank
Comparing it with other ‘joint’ aircraft programs
desert agate
the F-111 had some serious delays and budget overruns thanks to the Macnamara funnies but it didnt make the aircraft any less good at its job
strong plank
comparing and contrasting TFX, JSF, and the phantom
desert agate
the F-111b was very quickly cancelled, the F-111c was just an Australian modification and everything else just flew for the air force and did its job fine
thorn trail
can we have funny F-111B back
thorn trail
exactly
strong plank
don’t forget the sparkvark
manic latch
Buried
thorn trail
the last major big-ass carrier combat aircraft was that supersonic bomber right
strong plank
They shall rewawaken when the time is right
thorn trail
uh A-5 was it
strong plank
like those Star destroyers in the RoS
manic latch
like those Star destroyers in the RoS
thorn trail
i didn't realize the F-111B was actually 50% heavier than the A-5
and the A-5 has the same mtow as the Super Hornet
remote monolith
New pliosaur just dropped https://www.sci.news/paleontology/lorrainosaurus-keileni-12378.html
somber knoll
New pliosaur just dropped https://www.sci.news/paleontology/lorrainosaurus-keile...
That render is so 
when the artist has some humor
shrewd pecan
Apache can't use mavericks tho right
Not a Apache
But maverick integration on helicopters is a thing
cunning fractal
<@84008086733324288> Parizhskaya Kommuna
Oh, is that Wotjek?
shrewd pecan
ah I forgot that this was a thing
subtle prawn
shrewd pecan
subtle prawn
manic latch
@tough quail IS-3 after firing tests by Israel's 105mm AP
From what I heard. It's the French 105mm on Super Shermans. M-51 of AMX-30
Edit: OK it might be 75mm and a mistake could have caused to be wrongly written as 105 on the plates
tough quail
based either way
zealous vine
In the N3 / G3 designs, why was the design with the third turret placed behind the bridge the most prominent one?
Wouldn't an Atago-style fore arrangement interfere less with the machinery? or have easier passage between the bridge and the rest of the compartments under.
deep apex
Truly an issue in skill
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Actually I can
deep apex
It's all the liberals fault
Where do you live?
deep apex
Then I can call the skill issue card even more on the population front
Because I live in New Mexico
A state known for being a desert the same size territorially speaking as Italy
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You have no idea just how shit the liberal party is over here
deep apex
Learn how to live in desert
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Most of Australia is desert
deep apex
Lives in continent made mostly of desert
Can't live in actual desert. Has to stick to coasts
I'm having waaay too much fun with this
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That's because the coast line is the most hospitable part of the country
deep apex
So is a desert if you have skillz
desert agate
autumn sorrel
https://vxtwitter.com/kane/status/1716507383269130521
Magic barrier blessing 
manic latch
https://vxtwitter.com/kane/status/1716507383269130521
French priest blessing an aircraft on the Western Front, 1915
Catholic priest blessing a Polish TK-3
Flanker blessing
Greek priest blessing Rafale
manic latch
Hindu priest blessing Tejas
manic latch
Ayo @spring briar
Is there a way to fire water at hypersonic speed
Was thinking about water as ammo for future soldiers
And anything going at hypersonic speed should be deadly
Tho supersonic works too I think?
Or would water just get evaporate
autumn sorrel
Water cutting machine shoot water out fast, no sure about speed tho
Unless you want high pressure ice gun
spring briar
Is there a way to fire water at hypersonic speed
It wouldn’t work beyond a couple feet
hoary kiln
And anything going at hypersonic speed should be deadly
Air resistance makes it so that water even when shot at hypersonic speed would rapidly decrease speed and do nothing to the target
subtle prawn
manic latch
@tough quail @shrewd pecan
fictional future Soviet / Chinese bomber concept just for AIM-152 AAAM(Advanced Air-to-Air Missile, canceled in 1992)promo fact sheet of General Dynamics
tough quail
thanks for the based cp77 concept art GD
tribal mortar
https://vxtwitter.com/kane/status/1716507383269130521
Arasaka irl
tough quail
true
lime scarab
Hello I would like your guys opinion on a historic battle and what if, would have bismark make it back to France if ark royal wasn’t on her tail and sent those sword fish planes that destroyed her rudders and eventually sunk her, leading to Germany losing one of their important battleships?
strong plank
then congratulations, she gets to be bombed in port like tirpitz
grave ravine
I mean the Brits weren't going to just not send stuff after Bismarck
but yeah if she survives she just has the same experience all the other German capital ships do, scuttling around ports getting bombed
strong plank
also bismarck's sinking wasn't just ark royal
the loss of her rudder basically just held her down while the brits beat the shit out of her
lime scarab
the loss of her rudder basically just held her down while the brits beat the shi...
They real did beat the live heck out of that hull
grave ravine
Even had the rudder not been hit, there is a good chance that aggressive action by Vian at night or air strikes the next day would slow the ship down enough to allow the British battleships to catch up
strong plank
or she gets the casablanca treatment
grave ravine
I mean assuming she makes it to France, she probably gets bombed until the Germans make the channel dash
then maybe goes to Norway and gets bombed some more
or stays in the Baltic, and you guessed it gets bombed some more
strong plank
Even had the rudder not been hit, there is a good chance that aggressive action ...
not to mention the brits had eyes on her
grave ravine
They real did beat the live heck out of that hull
Eh, like any battleship she absorbed a lot of fire to sink
grave ravine
not to mention the brits had eyes on her
Yeah, Vian's destroyers were engaged all night with Bismarck
strong plank
leaking fuel isn't exactly conducive to sneaking around
remote monolith
I'll be honest I don't think Bismarck would have been healthy enough to participate in the Channel Dash assuming it somehow limped into France
grave ravine
made multiple torpedo attacks, but they didn't press them home because they knew the battleships would arrive the next morning
lime scarab
I mean the main reason they went after bismark to get revenge for hms hood so it was basically sinking a pride of the navy for another pride of the navy
strong plank
eh
grave ravine
The main reason they went after Bismarck was because it was a freaking battleship in the North Atlantic
strong plank
they went after it because a german battleship slinking around the atlantic could've been a threat to convoys
remote monolith
they went after any ships that managed to slip into the Atlantic
strong plank
I'll be honest I don't think Bismarck would have been healthy enough to particip...
if thats the case then the british would make sure she never left port again
and the allies would probably want her taken out before normandy
grave ravine
I'll be honest I don't think Bismarck would have been healthy enough to particip...
I figure they would have been able to, looking at the sorts of repairs Scharnhorst had needed before the dash
strong plank
bismarck's sinking is like that one classic gif
wasn't much of a glorious last stand so much as it was a clowning on
but nah bismarck wasn't a powerful enough asset to really make a difference in the war
spiral cedar
Hello I would like your guys opinion on a historic battle and what if, would hav...
Bombed in port until eventually permanently disabled, or bombed in port until she escapes to Norway, then bombed in Norway until eventually permanently disabled
wintry moat
Germany would need what 4-5x its industrial base
Plus the men and women to man said industrial base
lime scarab
The main reason they went after Bismarck was because it was a freaking battleshi...
My bad then
lime scarab
they went after it because a german battleship slinking around the atlantic coul...
Yeah maybe I misunderstood that part
spiral cedar
"Why was the Hood sent after Bismarck?"
"To avenge the Hood, of course."
wintry moat
Lol
spiral cedar
wintry moat
Preemptive strike
grave ravine
Germany would need what 4-5x its industrial base
Germany had an industrial base similar in size to Britain's
it just kinda needed an army
a lot more than it needed a navy
lime scarab
I also find it funny that Bismarck never got to do what she was supposed to do Atlantic sink supplies ships and shipping routes But the only thing that was sink was her herself
grave ravine
yeah going to war with everyone at once isn't smart either
wintry moat
whole best friends thing kinda makes picking a 1 on 1 fight hard
I like starting shit with my best friend by calling Hood a Fast Battleship
spiral cedar
Hood is a Fast Dreadnought Submarine prewar
lime scarab
yeah going to war with everyone at once isn't smart either
I mean hitler wasn’t the best leader for planning water operations, kinda like when he favored u boat warfare instead of using his warships because he was worried they would be sunk
wintry moat
but at the very least she’s a proto fast battleship
she’s about equivalent to QE’s Armor, main belt wise anyway, she’s got same guns
is 7 knots faster
grave ravine
I mean hitler wasn’t the best leader for planning water operations, kinda like w...
I mean U-boats do make more sense than surface ships for the German navy, but at the end of the day Germany was never going to be competitive navally, so long as their opponents were mostly not separated by bodies of water
remote monolith
u-boat warfare was his best bet because the surface fleet was pathetically weak and would have been annihilated in any direct engagement against the Royal Navy
spiral cedar
I mean hitler wasn’t the best leader for planning water operations, kinda like w...
The Kriegsmarine continued to do surface operations until the last straw in '43 when the surface fleet failed to destroy a convoy at Barents Sea
grave ravine
she’s about equivalent to QE’s Armor, main belt wise anyway, she’s got same guns
QE has noticeably heavier armor than Hood does
remote monolith
its honestly funny how ungodly pissed Hitler was at Barents Sea
spiral cedar
QE has noticeably heavier armor than Hood does
Eh...?
grave ravine
u-boat warfare *was* his best bet because the surface fleet was pathetically wea...
and building a fleet that would rival the Royal Navy was entirely not on the cards
remote monolith
man was ready to just scrap his entire surface fleet right then and there
spiral cedar
Both QE and Hood have rather narrow full thickness main belt sections, and while Hood's was a bit thinner than QE's the angle increased the effective protection
Maybe you can argue after the refits some of the QEs were better protected due to the deck armor upgrades
But overall it was similar at the time of completion
grave ravine
ok my bad
wintry moat
Hood had 12 inch angled to QE’s 13 flat
spiral cedar
Hood was 11.76" inclined at 10-12 degrees and QE was 12.74" vertical
wintry moat
Close enough
spiral cedar
Yes
lime scarab
Hood was also scheduled a retrofit a month from when the battle of the bismark strait happened
wintry moat
as Iowa and Hood have similar thick belts
wintry moat
Hood was also scheduled a retrofit a month from when the battle of the bismark s...
I know
the whole, making fun of Hood for exploding gets on my nerves
as yes, she did go down
But she’s 20 years old
isn’t updated
lime scarab
So you also hate the saying that bismark made a lick shot on hood correct
spiral cedar
The RN measured armor plate thickness in pounds (40.8 lbs is the weight of a 1" thick steel plate in a 1' x 1' square). For design convenience, the RN let their plates be 2% thinner in order to make the weights round out more nicely (so 40 lb on a diagram really means 0.98" armor). The USN used pounds as well, but rounded in the other direction, making 40 lb on diagrams really 1" but actually weighing 2% more.
spiral cedar
So you also hate the saying that bismark made a lick shot on hood correct
I mean, the specific shot that killed her was lucky, as she was presenting a bad angle at the time she was hit. But had that specific shot missed or deflected, she could just as easily have been blown up a few minutes later when the angle was better. So "lucky" in this context has a few different interpretations
Was the specific shot that killed her unlikely? Yes. But was her blowing up at some point in the battle unlikely? Not particularly.
wintry moat
that was about what was gonna say
It actually fetching up in her magazines is unlucky
lime scarab
I feel like lucky also describes how the American figured out the Japanese war code and able to find out they were going to attack midway and were able to surprise attack them
spiral cedar
Is that luck, or good planning, preparation, and intelligence work?
lime scarab
Is that luck, or good planning, preparation, and intelligence work?
Probable intelligence work
spring briar
You don’t really crack codes by twiddling your thumbs
spiral cedar
The Americans definitely got lucky at various points at Midway, but the codebreaking was the result of years of effort and months of ongoing refinement
lime scarab
I meant it was lucky to catch the Japanese surprise at midway because they thought the American fleet would be there until after the battle
grave ravine
was it luck though?
spiral cedar
Well, the surprise was a combination of the codebreaking and the poor Japanese reconnaissance before the battle (like the sub recon line)
grave ravine
I mean yes the IJN preparation for the planning was poor
spiral cedar
The latter the US got somewhat lucky on, sure, but the former was planned and intentional
lime scarab
I mean yes the IJN preparation for the planning was poor
How were they poorly planed
grave ravine
But realistically speaking, given the prebattle knowledge of relative sides, the USN should catch the IJN by surprise at Midway, the whole region the USN was engaging in the first place was because they believed they would be able to surprise the IJN
grave ravine
How were they poorly planed
There are many ways in which the Japanese planning for the battle was poor
but generally speaking Japan made a very complex plan that was predicated on the Americans acting exactly as they expected
and this plan was less a result of honest examination of their strategic situation so much as internal politicking within the imperial decision making bodies
If you want a book length treatment of the issue, I would recommend the book Shattered Sword by Parshall and Tully
It examines in detail the planning by both sides in the leadup to the battle, in particular the IJN's planning, and how each side's doctrine informed how they would fight
lime scarab
But thanks to the USA intelligence gathering and surprised was able to sink 4 carriers even those in the main fleet while only losing one, which force Japan to be on the defense instead of the attack for the rest of the war.
spiral cedar
The Japanese continued to attack
The IJN specifically only went fully on the defensive as a result of the Solomons campaign
lime scarab
I have a book that I’m reading but I haven’t been reading for awhile ||(a couple of months)|| it’s called the pacific crucible
lime scarab
The IJN specifically only went fully on the defensive as a result of the Solomon...
Ok then I need to read up on more history then
spiral cedar
The great thing about history is that there's always more to learn
spiral cedar
I have a book that I’m reading but I haven’t been reading for awhile ||(a couple...
Toll is great, good place to start
lime scarab
Yeah even though it sucks to be wrong though
lime scarab
Toll is great, good place to start
As I said i haven’t read it in a little bit but I remember what he was talking about when I left off
spiral cedar
Everyone's wrong about lots of things. The goal is to just get less wrong about stuff over time. Having people to talk to who understand that and won't judge you for honest mistakes helps
lime scarab
Yeah you guys seem definitely that kind of people
Wasn’t Yamato the one coming up with the plans to take wake island which was the battle of midway because after the do little raids and the battle of the coral sea?
Because he wanted striking range to the main land USA and Hawaii base
spiral cedar
Yamato wasn't a shipgirl at the time so she didn't do any planning
lime scarab
Yamato wasn't a shipgirl at the time so she didn't do any planning
I meant the general Yamamoto
lime scarab
Wake Island was a different battle
It was my bad
spiral cedar
And yes, Yamamoto was the main driver behind the Midway plan (Operation MI). He had been advocating for it before the Doolittle Raid, but Doolittle helped him convince the Japanese general staff to approve his plan
lime scarab
Why was he advocating for it before midway?
spiral cedar
The US carriers kept raiding and kept interfering with Japanese plans (such as the Lae-Salamaua raids). He wanted them dead so they'd stop interfering with Japanese plans. He also expected the US surface forces to come out and fight to retake Midway, allowing his surface forces to attack and destroy them
lime scarab
The US carriers kept raiding and kept interfering with Japanese plans (such as t...
O yeah I remember watching a video about the same information
I thinks Yamamoto wasn’t expecting the USA to recover so fast after petal harbor, he expected it to be 6 months of them to recover
spiral cedar
Well, Midway was 7 months after, so close enough?
But Yamamoto's plan was moot from the start because the US wasn't going to send the battleline out until 1943, when enough of the supply train (transports, fast oilers, supply ships, etc.) could be assembled to push across the Pacific
lime scarab
So basically what your saying is that Yamamoto plan main goal wasn’t even going to be there in the start so basically he wasted 4 aircraft carriers then
spiral cedar
But Yamamoto's plan was moot from the start because the US wasn't going to send ...
This I mean as his Pearl Harbor plan
lime scarab
This I mean as his Pearl Harbor plan
O ok
spiral cedar
But his Midway plan was based on wrong assumptions as well; the US was perfectly willing to simply bomb Midway from Hawaii if the Japanese captured it, rather than try to recapture it
Midway would provide no cover to whatever Japanese aircraft were stationed there; B-17s from Hawaii could show up unannounced (no radar warning) and bomb the aircraft on the ground any time they wanted
It would've just been a terrific drain of scarce Japanese airframes and supply ships to maintain them
lime scarab
It sounds even though if Japan took midway it would have been a waste of time for them to even been there then
spiral cedar
The USN only came out to fight because they expected to be able to deal disproportionate damage with a surprise carrier attack, not because Midway was inherently so valuable
Yeah
Nimitz' tactical instructions to Fletcher emphasize his main goal is "strong attrition" and that he wasn't to expose his forces to risk of destruction. If the Marines would have to ride out a Japanese attack, so be it—Fletcher's task was to kill lots of IJN ships without losing a lot of his own
lime scarab
Nimitz' tactical instructions to Fletcher emphasize his main goal is "strong att...
Sounds like Nimitz know what he was doing since he became commander of the pacific fleet
grave ravine
Its worth noting too that the US actually conducted the Battle of Midway a lot more aggressively than had originally been planned
Originally Nimitz and his staff had attempted to create the conditions where the Kido Butai would first be attritted by submarine and land based airpower, then Fletcher and Spruance would attack shortly before nightfall, and hopefully then again hit first the next day due to the greater concentration of American search assets
They switched to a more aggressive posture of striking early the first day with the confirmation that the Japanese would only have 4 carriers, and the arrival of the repaired USS Yorktown
spiral cedar
Yeah, early in the planning Nimitz was willing to go for 2 US CVs against up to 6 Japanese CVs
spiral cedar
I got 6 from a Lundstrom talk
grave ravine
ah, Parshall has a paper he published recently about Point luck and the planning, but he only talks about 2 v 5
on the basis that Zuikaku could have been prepared with a composite air group, but that there was no way Shokaku would have been ready
The Parshall paper https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/nwc-review/vol75/iss2/8/
lime scarab
Interesting
To be honest I haven’t really read up on the battle that lead to Zuikaku and her sister demise, which battle was that?
grave ravine
neither were destroyed, but in the end both were out of action because of Coral Sea
lime scarab
neither were destroyed, but in the end both were out of action because of Coral ...
Wait really I thought they were both sunk
grave ravine
they were in the end much later
Shokaku at Philippine Sea
and Zuikaku at Cape Engano
lime scarab
The battles correct?
spiral cedar
I got 6 from a Lundstrom talk
Checking First Team, Lundstrom gives 4-5 as well. Either his talk referred to a different point in the planning or i misremembered him
Zuikaku never sustained battle damage until after her sister was mortally wounded
spiral cedar
The battles correct?
Yes
grave ravine
Zuikaku didn't sail for Midway because of air group losses during Coral Sea
While Shokaku had taken bomb damage
grave ravine
Nimitz feared that they might send Zuikaku with a composite air group of both Shokaku and Zuikaku's pilots
lime scarab
Nimitz feared that they might send Zuikaku with a composite air group of both Sh...
Which makes sense
grave ravine
Checking First Team, Lundstrom gives 4-5 as well. Either his talk referred to a ...
On that topic, its kinda unfortunate that my Uni library only has the First Team and Guadalcanal, but not The First Team
spiral cedar
Borrowed and out or just don’t have it
grave ravine
just doesnt have it
spiral cedar
Unfortunate
lime scarab
I have no idea what that is
spring briar
9 100mm holes in a test plate for a protected cruiser
lime scarab
9 100mm holes in a test plate for a protected cruiser
O ok
spring briar
Probably a 35-85 mm plate
Since that was the deck plating thickness of that particular ship
sleek folio
so we could say we have a Spanish and a Portuguese ship in AL?
runic ermine
so we could say we have a Spanish and a Portuguese ship in AL?
Yes and a Canadian built one (the C class girls and F class girls are transfers and Bonaventure was only in the beta)
rapid junco
I also technically include the ABC of South America
Even though their transfers were post WWII
thorny patio
Are there any ships named after Alexander hamilton?
You know founder of the Coast guard?
desert agate
i've been here
or well
500m-1km away
you cant actually get too close but i did see one of the cars of the last residents
manic latch
In 1943 a report was drawn up by Captain Oliver Bellasis after a visit to the USA comparing King George V to the battleship Washington. It makes interesting reading: The turrets are more heavily protected than ours but arrangements for handling shells are simplified to a degree which would not be acceptable in HM ships. The 5in turrets are understood to be much lighter than our 5.25in mountings and much closer together.There are objections to the latter feature on the score of possible damage. Compared with King George V Washington has a much smaller armoured freeboard, an inferior armoured deck and a soft forward end. In KGV the conning tower has much lighter armour but in the aggregate the protected space in KGV is much more than in the US ship and the protection is better. Torpedo damage to the North Carolina has revealed a weakness compared to KGV viz — greater chance of flooding over third deck (corresponding to middle deck on KGV due to its position lower in the ship). Washington has a treble bottom, which, however, does not give any appreciable
advantage over a double bottom of comparable weight and depth — later US ships reverted to a double bottom. The meta-centric height is only slightly greater than KGV in spite of the larger beam, probably due to the massive superstructure and heavy conning tower. The riddled stability would be poor compared to KGV because of her soft ends. Washington had considerable trouble with vibration when first commissioned and improvements have been obtained at the expense of
some additional weight and interchange of propellers. It is understood that the condition is still not good.The size of the US expansion is remarkable and it appeared to me that there is no
doubt that America really intends to have a navy.To our standards at it seems rather too little thought and discussion has been given to the characteristics of the ship, yet the ships seem remarkably, almost disturbingly good –on paper at any rate.
subtle prawn
sleek folio
Yes and a Canadian built one (the C class girls and F class girls are transfers ...
lol
shrewd pecan
zealous vine
I swear, these mobile ads..
halcyon bane
hey what does it mean when a ship is T10 or T9 etc..?
eternal veldt
Mostly an arbitrary unit to represent naval power and time of design.
zealous vine
hey what does it mean when a ship is T10 or T9 etc..?
Probably referring to WoWs tier system. Bigger, badder ship = Bigger tier.
(World of Warships)
clear scroll
And not all the ships are there mainly the important ones
zealous vine
And not all the ships are there mainly the important ones
Oh wait, you were talking to him, silly me
clear scroll
I was just making the connection with the tier system
zealous vine
Mhm
clear scroll
Although thr furtherest I've gotten in naval battles in war thunder is unlocking ayanami
autumn sorrel
I swear, these mobile ads..
And it is real game to boot
clear scroll
Modern warships I think
desert agate
https://fxtwitter.com/scotty_thomo/status/1509014092576481284
https://fxtwitter.com/scotty_thomo/status/1509014230225219586?s=20
https://fxtwitter.com/scotty_thomo/status/1509014586392911873
died OTD 81 years ago
placid lagoon
is possible post quora answer?
junior trench
I swear, these mobile ads..
junior trench
autumn sorrel
Wait, I didn't know that they replace Wyoming cage mast?
junior trench
of course to properly match that ad's UI and the imagery, at least partially, you'd be looking at Mississippi's rocket punch loadout
desert agate
all the cage masts were gone by the late 30s
junior trench
armed with Terrier, Petrel, 5"/38s, and a twin 6"/47 ala Worcester
autumn sorrel
all the cage masts were gone by the late 30s
Hmm, Wyoming still retain her cage mast after 1944 refit, wonder when the pic was taken?
remote monolith
@maiden citrus Life on Our Planet os out on Netflix here
I'll review ep 1 tomorrow
clear scroll
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1717286612789240110
Nice
grave ravine
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1717189112170447198
"This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can." - then Lieutenant Commander Robert Witcher Copeland, captain of USS Samuel B Roberts
grave ravine
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1716833925622800484
Musashi did not in fact take 19 torpedoes to sink
haughty osprey
"This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be ex...
The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors should be mandatory reading.
frozen kestrel
Quick question fellas: How tall is an Iowa turret? (Deck to roof of the turret)
clear scroll
Couple meters I'd guess, best to watch the videos on new jerseys YouTube channel
Yea, just go to battleship new jersey on YouTube, they do a lot of really good videos about the Iowa class, even going into stuff about drydocking which their due to do
deep apex
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1716981815288705454
Silverpalm didn't survive the war. She was sunk by U-371 on June 12, 1941. Her entire crew of 68 was lost.
clear scroll
I think he meant the gun house part...
desert agate
and that diagram shows the gun house
remote monolith
Life on our Planet is a disappointment
I don't recommend watching it
the cinematography is good, but the CG gets eh sometimes and it peddles outdated views about dinosaurs and about evolution in general
extremely disappointed that despite Steven Spielberg being in the helm the actual informational content is shit, especially compared to Prehistoric Planet
remote monolith
also what in FUCK is this
this isn't an Allosaurus
this is a fucking demon
what were they THINKING
autumn sorrel
also what in FUCK is this
Where the feathers? 
remote monolith
Where the feathers? <:Ehhssex:611004140046254080>
its not about the feathers
maiden citrus
that's supposed to be an allosaurus?
remote monolith
its thefact that this is literally Gwangi
maiden citrus
lol
it has some minor characteristics to seem it but yeah it looks like a mutant one
but big rip, might watch it anyway though as it's prehistoric content
autumn sorrel
Wait, isn’t Allosaurus is a big one? I thought that was a raptor
cosmic oar
Out of proportion
remote monolith
extremely
remote monolith
but big rip, might watch it anyway though as it's prehistoric content
be careful because the show peddles "extinct animals beside mammals and dinosaurs are slow, dumb and doomed to extinction from getting outcompeted" angle
autumn sorrel
be careful because the show peddles "extinct animals beside mammals and dinosaur...
Not a big ass rock?
remote monolith
they showed a Kannemeyeriformes not doing anything when it got mauled by a Gorgonopsid because, in their own word, "its too stupid to register a predator"
cosmic oar
be careful because the show peddles "extinct animals beside mammals and dinosaur...
Bullshit
autumn sorrel
It is like that old argument before they find proof about Livy about how it is a big ass peaceful whale got pred on by Meg
remote monolith
for a more minor fault, we went back to defenseless hadrosaurs and for some mysterious reasons, they showed swamp dwelling Diplodocus
that's an at least 50-60 years worth of setback in depiction
remote monolith
its just
uuuuurgh
super annoying
I guess its a symptom of them trying to tackle the entire history of life and to fit it they did some massive, massive liberties in order to make a grand narrative of life
oh and for hit, they ignored the entire prehistoric history of Australia
no Megalania, Quinkana, Minmi or the myriad of other prehistoric faunas
desert agate
as usual
maiden citrus
but australia and antarctic dinos are based
remote monolith
they're criminally understated like most of everything not from North America and Europe, and even European dinosaurs get the shaft compared to NA
overall this docu plays safe with its animals, not showing any of the more obscure ones, and uses outdated/outright false ideas as its promotion vehicle
maiden citrus
south american dinosaurs are among the coolest too
and prehistoric life in general
subtle prawn
fierce sparrow
Aurochs... oh the Aurochs...
runic ermine
I love this reference
shrewd pecan
shrewd pecan
strong plank
Oh they finally installed it?
rapid junco
near raptor
If anyone cares the Konpeki no Kantai fansub group is active again
It's the least 'magical' historical anime out there about the pacific war. It's pretty cursed but now that the last 10 episodes are getting subbed it's probably a good watch for history buffs out there
remote monolith
its been discusses here about 2 years ago\
fun times
pretty sure that thing is partly responsible for Tojokistan
near raptor
pretty sure that thing is partly responsible for Tojokistan
Why are there 300 results in this channel for that search word
remote monolith
Why are there 300 results in this channel for that search word
ah its a very long story and full of adlibs
I've forgotten the exact sequence of its creation, but afaik it started from discussion about Operation Downfall, which mutated to an exiled Tojo setting up a fiefdom of sorts in China, which then mutated into it becoming a Caliphate
thus, Tojokistan
near raptor
maiden citrus
legends say tojo hated the navy so much he moved away and founded his own country
subtle prawn
clear scroll
Bruh
spiral cedar
Some days I remember the IJN BBs carried about 60 rounds of APC per gun and I feel pessimistic. Then I remember the Littorios had around 55 rounds of APC per gun and I feel depressed. Then I realize Bismarck carried around 44 rounds of APC per gun and I realize why Lütjens was holding fire for so long at Denmark Strait
maiden citrus
lol
spring briar
spring briar
Some days I remember the IJN BBs carried about 60 rounds of APC per gun and I fe...
Every day I remember that most relevant actions of the MN using only french tech were in 1939 and 1940
So much wasted potential
chilly osprey
Yeah but if you look at smaller unit actions there are still actions by destroyers in 1941 and 42
Light cruisers too if you're counting the Battle of Casablanca
tribal mortar
by the way, amongst all of the current pirate ships in AL,
History wise, which is the strongest
remote monolith
what define strongest?
strongest in what, armament? Crew quality? Wood quality? Construction method? Ship type?
eternal veldt
By the metric of most ships captured, Royal Fortune's captain - Barthlomew Roberts - is mostly refered as the most successful pirate in the Golden Age of Piracy.
It's simply not possible to compare the ships introduced in this event due to the massive timespan they traverse.
Also worth noting that ships of the Spanish Armada favoured boarding with relatively sluggish galleons and heavy artillery, compared to the English method of maneuvering and pounding away at the Spanish with relatively smaller, maneuverable ships with lighter artillery.
remote monolith
with the logical conclusion in the form of Santissima Trinidad
that uh
failed to kill even a single British ship in her lifetime
humble mulch
Trinidad was something else that's for sure
eternal veldt
That's much later though, some ~100 years.
remote monolith
I know, but it is reflective of Spanish ship philosophies I would say
eternal veldt
and again, I think the good and legendary example of the Spanish armada is the last fight of the Revenge.
Gotta board her and capture her at all costs - against one defiant captain Grenville and his crew.
remote monolith
large, ponderous galleons designed to take huge amount of cargos in comparison to more nimble English or Dutch ones
eternal veldt
Trinidad is an odd case of packing more firepower onto what was originally a three decker, I feel
Hence did come with stability costs - and I think the added guns are relatively low pounders.
You certainly aren't going to put a 32 pounder on the top deck unless you want your ship to capsize.
Duke of Kent, though, that's where things reach insanity levels
Though I guess, at that proposed time, shipbuilding technology is already maturing and nations are starting to churn out 120-131 guns.
manic latch
by the way, amongst all of the current pirate ships in AL,
History wise, which...
Easy
It's São Martinho
Its a Galleon with 48 heavy cannons
So she is superior to things like Adventure Galley, Golden Hind, Fortune etc
She is very tanky too
"The São Martinho and crew played a crucial role in defending the armada throughout the English Channel. An example was the fighting of July 31 to August 2, 1588, from the English coast to Calais, such as the rescue ordered by Medina Sidonia of the galleon São João, commanded by Juan Martinez de Recalde, that after repairs and trying to join the formation, was intercepted and faced alone 12 English galleons and race galleons. In the process, the São Martinho fought, virtually isolated, for one hour, 15 English galleons."
junior trench
By the metric of most ships captured, Royal Fortune's captain - Barthlomew Rober...
ah, but Whydah belongs to the richest by actual recorded value
that little one is loaded
tough quail
💰
junior trench
4.5-5 tons of indigo, ivory, gold, and 20-30k pound sterling are still mostly buried with her under the sand
that's 3.5 million Pounds at the low end in cash alone
and if we assume most of the cargo's weight was gold, then that's nearing 50+ Million more Pounds in cargo
little lady is absolutely loaded
cosmic oar
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1717962994460577873
Friendly Fire Activated
grave ravine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asrs8-mET2c
While I usually like the Operation Room's videos, this one had a lot of inaccuracies. For one, it implies that Shima and Nishimura's forces had been intended to penetrate the strait together, when in fact they were not, Shima's force deliberately was supposed to arrive later. In addition, the PT boats did not attack as one major mass, but in a series of attacks of 3 ship sections spaced out over a significant period of time, since their main object was to remain in contact and report the position of the Japanese, and at the time of the PT boat attacks the destroyers had been detached from the formation specifically to sweep for PT boats. At the time of Coward's destroyer attack however, the Japanese were just finishing moving into a line ahead formation, with the 4 destroyers leading Yamashiro, Fuso, and Mogami, and as ships would drop out from torpedo attacks the final formation as it went into the gunfight would have been Shigure followed by Yamashiro followed by Mogami. Similarly the US formation is depicted wrong, when the gunfight broke out Olendorf's formation was to have the 6 battleships and their escorts moving across the strait, while cruisers lined each side in a shallow U-shape. It is unfortunate, because usually the Operations Room is pretty good about visual representations of battles.
exotic scarab
why did they paint some ww2 boats pink
clear scroll
<:RoonStare:839635017043017748> why did they paint some ww2 boats pink
Oh that ship, it was because the port that particular ship went to only had pink, and it actually worked as camo for sunrise and sunset
Hence it being pink for a long time
tribal mortar
strongest in what, armament? Crew quality? Wood quality? Construction method? Sh...
anything tbh
desert agate
remote monolith
ah front facing eyes my beloved uncanny valley factor
frozen kestrel
ah front facing eyes my beloved uncanny valley factor
why is this the first image that comes to my mind...
I can't even tell what that is. Is it like, a T Rex or some shit?
remote monolith
Tyrannosaurus, aye
pretty unique even among theropods because it has binocular vision like humans and modern eagles. A lot of other theropods doesn't have it
frozen kestrel
why does it look traumatized
remote monolith
guessing that's a side effect of the front facing eye and the artist depiction
frozen kestrel
yeah
remote monolith
depending on the artist it looks pretty different from the front
subtle prawn
clear scroll
That...really looks like a modified M4...
subtle prawn
clear scroll
Thought so
unborn wyvern
Went inside growler
Would highly recommend if you're in NYC
Intrepid is also amazing
wild tendon
I'm actually dumb
I watch so much videos on the pacific theatre's naval battles
but I can never remember anything
like I've probably watched at least a hundred videos on the pacific theatre
and I probably wouldn't be able to retell a single battle even if a gun was pointed at my head
eternal veldt
Try a book. Sometimes words etch harder than graphics.
solid mango
Hellu, I is planning for an artwork and would like to know the usual crew size of a Bofors quad mount (idk if shielded mounts affect that but would preffer open mounts) thank u 
wild tendon
Hellu, I is planning for an artwork and would like to know the usual crew size o...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_40_mm_L/60_gun#Naval
it says it's 4 here
But it also says 1-2 barrels
but it probably doesn't matter too much
oh and I would love to see the artwork when you're finished
wild tendon
Try a book. Sometimes words etch harder than graphics.
you're probably right now that I think about it, with videos you can just watch them without also paying attention
but it's much harder to do that with books
do you recommend any?
solid mango
oh and I would love to see the artwork when you're finished
Well I was planning to well... Draw a quad mount bofors fully crewed by... 
👉 👈 (except for Clevelad)
Given I can include a mk 51 director aswell
wild tendon
I can totally see Cleveland fumbling with the magazine
solid mango
its a clip- 
Thinking on having 2 at the mk 51 director and the other 4 on the tub and 11 on the gun mount 
Speaking of quads n Cleves... Biloxi 
median osprey
What’s that one Japanese Movie set in ww2 it’s about Yamamoto
I need to watch but idk the name of it
digital mantle
eternal veldt
do you recommend any?
See pinned messages.
cosmic oar
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1718035072475947147
Funny incident name
cosmic oar
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1718277918953029890
Now we wait for Wisconsin to get added to the game
shrewd pecan
desert agate
Australian troops of the 3rd Battalion, RAR, reach Chongju, the most northerly point of their advance into North Korea. In two days of fierce fighting, both sides suffered many casualties, with nine Australians killed in the action, and thirty wounded.
interesting to note that none of these soldiers are wearing helmets
subtle prawn
dusty kraken
manic latch
desert agate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yahQSiCCXFE
Oh I know this guy
maiden citrus
manic latch
One of the most notorious sales by Zaharoff was that of the Nordenfelt I, a faulty steam-driven submarine model based on a design by the English inventor and clergyman George Garrett, which US Navy intelligence characterized as capable of "dangerous and eccentric movements."
The mechanics, driven by steam propulsion, were completely inadequate for underwater navigation, and failed demonstrably when undergoing sea trials by the respective navies. Besides the underlying problems of the faulty propulsion system, they were also chronically unstable. One of the Turkish Navy's submarines sank, capsizing during a torpedo firing test. The vessel reared in a vertical position, from which it sank by the stern.
maiden citrus
manic latch
<:MakaPeek:818478681399623741>
USA almost sold armor, 406mm guns, 3 triple turrets, and 900 AP shells with their charges and primers for 10.030.000$ to USSR if Carp didn't pushed his luck further for construction of a BB in US.
So there is a way I can make Soyuz get these gears by traveling back to past 
autumn sorrel
So there is a way I can make Soyuz get these gears by traveling back to past <a:...
Soyuz with Mk6? 
manic latch
Soyuz with Mk6? <:NagaThonk:721896665174376539>
Yes
autumn sorrel
Wait, North Korean Chonma series of tank are T-62 copy, right? And Chonma V use 2A46 125mm smothbore gun but without auto loader, wouldn't the 2 piece ammunition for 125mm make it longer to load than 115mm smothbore?
subtle prawn
median osprey
I wish they still made battleships today but I understand why they don’t anymore too expensive and inefficient
autumn sorrel
SIGMA class is real
I mean, where have you been for the last 20 yrs?
They have been trying to sell those off, even offered up helping kickstart other nation shipyard if they build it under license for quite a while now
autumn sorrel
VPN even try to buy 4 with 2 of those are domestically produce in Vietnam, bid fail bc of budget reason
rotund yarrow
Typical ambitious naval project failing due to spending reasons
autumn sorrel
Hmm, VPN abandon the SIGMA project to focus more on Molniya
Molniya while older and with a bit inferior on the eletronic side can carry more missile and are faster
Not to mention it is easier to integrate Molniya to the current defense network than with SIGMA
What VPN is mostly after in the contract with Damen is the shipyard upgrade pack
Ba Son shipyard got upgrade quite extensively thanks to those deal
Interestingly, Vietnam coast guard actually operate large of number of ship from Damen, even to the point of produce under license patrol boat
autumn sorrel
This is history, you always get to know new stuff
rotund yarrow
I prefer to learn about wars more than vehicles
autumn sorrel
You got dip a toe into military acquisition and a lot of interesting stuff come up
rotund yarrow
All the modern boats are geometric asf
autumn sorrel
Like how all of VPN planned naval vessel on paper or on build roll is currently suspended due to lack of Engine
wintry moat
VPN?
autumn sorrel
VPN was so accustomed to Soviet and Russian engine that now they have to source from different source
wintry moat
Vietnam Patrol Navy?
autumn sorrel
Now, I feel insulted
autumn sorrel
VPN have it problem but due to our budget, everything have to be double check and cut cost of anything consider flashy
wintry moat
VPN have it problem but due to our budget, everything have to be double check an...
That wasn’t an insult
or not as I meant it
ship with no engine
and small
is my correlation
autumn sorrel
That wasn’t an insult
I know, it just funny when you bring up the Baron when my fav battletech ship in that tonnage range is Concordat
wintry moat
The baron is the Porsche Tiger of Battletech
wintry moat
I know, it just funny when you bring up the Baron when my fav battletech ship in...
Where would I find stuff of BT ships?
as a side tangent
The Concordat is a great little ship
autumn sorrel
Where would I find stuff of BT ships?
Sarna still the best soure afaik
wintry moat
aight
autumn sorrel
For real tho, VPN is as money pincer as a granny
They literally try to cut cost on everything if possible
solid mango
It do indeed go kaboom
autumn sorrel
ship with no engine
Well, VPN suspend all ship building until new engine are find and somehow work to be compatible with the desgin
autumn sorrel
It isn't easy to replace the propulsion system for ship you already design
wintry moat
isn’t that for a lot of stuff?
autumn sorrel
or has this already happened?
Afaik, outside of patrol craft, no more new ship
autumn sorrel
isn’t that for a lot of stuff?
Anything larger than 500ton
wintry moat
Ah ok
autumn sorrel
Oh wait, VPN still building patrol boat
OMG, that boat still using Russian made sensor pack
And we try to pawn it off to Phillipine
autumn sorrel
Ah ok
Ever wonder what happened when you take a Soviet ship design in 1950s and try to give it stealth super structure?
wintry moat
Sure?
autumn sorrel
Oh wait, I am img ban
round cave
Hi
autumn sorrel
So yeah, no new missile ship or sub but plenty of dry-docking for rebuilt and refurbishing to keep older ship going
rotund yarrow
It do indeed go kaboom
POV: You get hit by a 155mm artillery round
spring briar
He is referring to when USS Wisconsin got hit
And she retaliated
With the U.S. entering the Korean War just 2 years later, Wisconsin was put back into use and shelled all sorts of enemy positions from the coast. Then, on March 15th, 1952, the ship received its first direct hit.
There were no deaths, however, 3 sailors were injured and there was minimal damage to the ship. The hit came from a Korean 155mm gun battery which got lucky.
The crew of USS Wisconsin, however, returned fire with all of her 9 guns, totally obliterating anything and anyone in the position the hostile shots came from. Right after the shots were fired, a sister ship which was escorting Wisconsin flashed its signal lamp with the words, “Temper, temper,” before continuing on their way.
strong plank
the escort was USS Buck, a sumner class DD launched in March ‘45 and therefore eligible to be added
eternal veldt
the escort was USS Buck, a sumner class DD ~~launched in March ‘45 and therefore...
It wasnt Buck, more like Duncan.
This tale gets repeated many times, (borderline ad nauseam,) yet often strangely everybody gets the escorting destroyer mixed up.
clear scroll
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1718726479800901733
Ahh yes, dreadnought class sub
shrewd pecan
tough quail
turbo science
grave ravine
Wait, North Korean Chonma series of tank are T-62 copy, right? And Chonma V use ...
So I would note that it can actually be quicker and easier to load two piece ammunition than single piece ammunition depending on the space constraints and weight
It's also worth noting that while the Chonma family are derivatives of T-62, they have significantly diverged from T-62, with newer models having stretched chassis, and enlarged turrets with composite etc
junior trench
more importantly by skipping the the carousel autoloader it's feasible for the NorKs to keep lengthening the penetrator
autumn sorrel
Is this where you telling me that this was intentionally design to make a modular APC?
manic latch
turbo science
Soviets were decades ahead
fierce sparrow
eternal veldt
tribal cove
The Swedish Destroyer HMS Småland(J19)
shrewd pecan
zealous vine
How often have ships been sunk to pure bombardment? (outside of detonating ammo and a ship in half)
manic latch
How often have ships been sunk to pure bombardment? (outside of detonating ammo ...
Age of sail: Alot
zealous vine
Age of sail: Alot
How about the 1930s onwards
eternal veldt
Age of sail: Alot
Not a lot I can think of on top of my head, actually.
manic latch
Wot
eternal veldt
The crew usually capitulates from the amount of incapacitated members.
Unless your captain explicitly orders the colours to be nailed to the masts.
desert agate
yeah its incredibly difficult to sink a ship made out of wood
eternal veldt
Quite a few ships I remember surrendered, then mother nature said no and sank the battered, unseaworthy ships.
desert agate
it was quite rare for age of sail ships to actually sink
even while utterly devastated
eternal veldt
The famous Trinidad, Droits de l'Homme, Glorieux, Ville de Paris comes to mind
Driven ashore or otherwise lost in a storm due to battle damage
desert agate
as far as steam and steel onwards is concerned, its pretty difficult to sink a ship by pure gunfire
eternal veldt
Aiming in the age of sail is really more "aim in that direction"
You can't precisely aim at the waterline of a ship, expecting it to punch through with every shot
desert agate
once you have some fires started and get some waterline hits, generally thats where ships will start to sink in age of steam and steel
eternal veldt
You can, however, try to take down the rigging of a ship
and if by chance that rigging is set ablaze before being brought down...
desert agate
a large number of the ships lost at tsushima were sunk by torpedoes or were scuttled, or suffered magazine detonations
only 2 of the Russian battleships at Tsushima for example, were lost to gunfire
2 more were sunk by torpedoes, although one was a coup de grace, and another was lost to a magazine detonation
eternal veldt
As for the example of Kirishima, technically she was also more "scuttled"
desert agate
far more common to scuttle a ship that has lost all combat viability due to gunfire, than to actually be sunk by gunfire alone
in order to prevent capture
eternal veldt
Samidare scuttled her after heavy listing was reported
no thanks to the leaking caused by Washington's shells
Yukikaze also allegedly scuttled Hiei together with the rest of Desdiv 27
eternal veldt
The crew usually capitulates from the amount of incapacitated members.
As for this, it is also why it is important back then to hold the "Weather gauge" - you dictate the engagement with the wind, and it is far more likely that you can maneuver to an ideal position - say the stern, or the bow of the ship then proceed to basically kill the entire crew off with raking fire.
Constitution vs Guerriere was that of the latter - which did not end well for the British ship.
grave ravine
Yukikaze also allegedly scuttled Hiei together with the rest of Desdiv 27
I don't believe Hiei was actually scuttled, when they returned to scuttle the ship she had already sunk
however Hiei had been hit by like a dozen torpecoes at that point, it definitely was not gunfire that had inflicted that flooding
Similarly, its likely that Kirishima capsized before it was necessary to scuttle the ship
spring briar
Wot
Wooden ships tend to float
and iron balls only really poke rather small holes
so it would take a lot of shells to outright sink a wooden hulled ship in this era
grave ravine
There is no evidence of any torpedo damage on the wreck of Kirishima
And survivors seem to be consistent that the ship capsized without any warning, let alone scuttling torpedoes
spring briar
Kiri suddenly got holed an awful number of times on one side of the ship
and probably
most attempts to damage control failed due to simply being wiped out by shells
the Kongo's were particularly susceptible to capsizing due to such flooding
eternal veldt
Yukikaze's crew reported hissing of torpedo tubes - either those missed, or dud, or a misunderstanding if that is the case. But yes, Yukikaze departed the scene hastily, only to return and find the ship gone.
eternal veldt
There is no evidence of any torpedo damage on the wreck of Kirishima
Kirishima was specifically disposed by gunfire from Samidare, not torpedo.
grave ravine
I don't think thats consistent with a sudden capsizing of the ship
spring briar
who tf is samidare
grave ravine
a destroyer
grave ravine
IDK, I can't find any evidence to suggest Kirishima was scuttled
eternal veldt
It was a bit of both at the same time
grave ravine
The Japanese survivors are pretty clear that the ship capsized very suddenly
eternal veldt
At 0042, the captain ordered abandon ship, and Samidare arrived shortly after at 1AM
zealous vine
far more common to scuttle a ship that has lost all combat viability due to gunf...
That's what I've been thinkig
spring briar
well in any case
Samidare's gunfire
is not significant enough to meanigfully speed up Kiri's sinking
grave ravine
At 0042, the captain ordered abandon ship, and Samidare arrived shortly after at...
The crew clearly had not evacuated the ship when it capsized
eternal veldt
Fair enough on both.
eternal veldt
Im guessing muddling the waters is Kirishima reporting to Asagumo that she'd been torpedoed in the stern
It wasnt one, should be Lee's handiwork
grave ravine
yeah possibly
spring briar
Kiri was hit like
4 times by 16" shells aft
this could definitely be mistaken for a torpedo hit?
zealous vine
There was the possibility that if a significantly huge chunk of a ship was blown out, that just by the weight distribution, a ship would topple..?
(I'm just spitting out shit)
grave ravine
Kiri was hit like
4 times by 16" shells aft
wreck analysis found 16" hits below the waterline
spring briar
Here we go
zealous vine
Here we go
How the hell did 20 make it
eternal veldt
I mixed up, Kirishima's messages to Asagumo was "Ship internals heavily damaged, unable to steer" and "Predicted to be able to proceed at slow ahead" - Asagumo then reports that as Kirishima as torpedoed
spring briar
How the hell did 20 make it
ships are huge
eternal veldt
Too sleepy.
zealous vine
ships are huge
Fair
spring briar
"surprisingly" enough
no major mag detonations on her
despite the pounding she received
grave ravine
or a pressure shock
spring briar
combination
autumn sorrel
Hmm, can 40mm Bofors deal considerable dmg on Japanese battleship super structure?
manic latch
Hmm, can 40mm Bofors deal considerable dmg on Japanese battleship super structur...
I don't think that's a range you want to be in
autumn sorrel
I don't think that's a range you want to be in
Tbf, isn't that the range where Laffey find herself in?
grave ravine
Laffey found herself much closer than that
spiral cedar
no major mag detonations on her
Mostly because the barbettes got penned first and the mags were flooded due to those fires, before the mag hits happened
grave ravine
A lot of the ships in that battle found themselves within AA gun range
Ironically we have much better attested damage to Laffey by 25mm guns on Hiei than damage to Hiei by Laffey's AA
Though also I believe Laffey would have still had 1.1s instead of Bofors
spring briar
Mostly because the barbettes got penned first and the mags were flooded due to t...
still
you'd expect some shells to damage the mags during those hits
guess whe was lucky
fierce sparrow
shrewd pecan
frozen kestrel
I recognize that UI...
maiden citrus
The security red flags that image gives me
lime scarab
If you guys mind me asking how severe were the Washington naval treaty was toward each country fleet?
autumn sorrel
If you guys mind me asking how severe were the Washington naval treaty was towar...
Multiple ship were either scrap, stop building or scrap in drydock
Japan wasn't particular happy with the tonnage they get, French got pissed bc they were got downgrade to a 2nd class Navy, Brit Navy were both pissed and relieved bc they have to stop building ships but also avoid a costly arm race and limit their potential rival navy, US is kinda "ok", they still kinda in isolationist mindset and their aim of limiting IJN already accomplished, only one real happy is Italy bc for some reason, they got to seat side by side with France, not to mention the tonnage they get is far more than enough for their need.
spring briar
No Tosa or Akagi
No South Dakota
autumn sorrel
No Lexington BC
spring briar
Maka in shambles
autumn sorrel
Still funny to me how France got to pissed at the treaty more than IJN, like, how are they even thinking of filling their allocated tonnage with their ship building at the time
Oh right, didn't the treaty force the RN to stop fortifying HongKong and move back to Singapore?
shrewd pecan
The security red flags that image gives me
Apparently later mirage 2000s were able to run windows
lime scarab
Multiple ship were either scrap, stop building or scrap in drydock
Yeah but I guess a good side was they were able to convert some hulls into aircraft carriers but I believe there was limit tonnage for them and they could only convert two hulls
autumn sorrel
Depend
RN got a good start on the carrier conversion scheme thing but they got stuck with shitty hull later on
lime scarab
RN got a good start on the carrier conversion scheme thing but they got stuck wi...
Who is rn
autumn sorrel
IJN was fucked by Kanto earthquake and their early idea on how CV should be design mean they have lingering problem on Akagi and Kaga
lime scarab
Royal Navy
O ok
autumn sorrel
Out of all of the major navy, US are the only one that got right in the beginging with their conversion
lime scarab
IJN was fucked by Kanto earthquake and their early idea on how CV should be desi...
So basically Japan has one of the worst time to convert
lime scarab
Out of all of the major navy, US are the only one that got right in the begingin...
Because we had two Lexington class hulls that we didn’t know what to do with
desert agate
The Brits arguably got the worst out of the treaties
Went from by far the world's largest fleet to a mere 15 capital units
Probably the single bright spot is that almost their entire cruiser force was also scrapped which meant they had almost no WW1 hangovers like the USN did
lime scarab
Probably the single bright spot is that almost their entire cruiser force was al...
So basically they had to start form scratch making cruisers then
shrewd pecan
spring briar
hahahaha yeeees
last lance
Damn that's looks wild
lime scarab
If you guys mind me asking what is one warship that your always interested in learning facts about?
lime scarab
Any RN Capital ship
Yeah capital ships are really interesting to learn about specifically bismark and tripitz etc and how they were used and such and honestly tripitz never got forfill her role as a capital ship instead she was more of a threaten device