history

[spiral cedar]

Bomb size varied; half were smaller 250kg types and one (that pierced the armored deck) was 1000kg

https://www.armouredcarriers.com/battle-damage-to-hms-illustrious

[frozen kestrel]

Thank you

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIrBqsn0WCY

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1713968018017902984

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxLlNe4367s

[spring briar]

@spiral cedar @tough quail @maiden citrus

eureka

[spiral cedar]

Are they paired

[spring briar]

that we are not sure of

[wild tendon]

Omg I was looking for this yesterday

on Operation room's channel

and just my fucking luck they make one the day after

[wild tendon]

There's something about WW2 damage control (successful damage control) that just really tickles my brain

like it just blows my mind

that this is possible

[wild tendon]

Like I've been reading/researching/watching all about it in the past few days, but it's still crazy to me that people can manage to save ships in situations like these

[spiral cedar]

It really takes a strong understanding of the core factors of warship survivability to pull off, alongside good training and equipment

The USN got comparatively quite good at it by war's end through constant learning and disseminating lessons learned throughout the fleet

[cinder escarp]

It is 2023, and there are still Panzer IVs getting knocked out in combat. Which is a wee bit mindblowing.

[spiral cedar]

Shame to lose a probable museum piece, though

[remote monolith]

Peter Samsonov already looked it up, unfortunately it seems that's far more likely a fake or a prop build out of a BMP

[cinder escarp]

I have to disagree with Samsonov, there's way too much inside for it to be a fake or prop.

[wintry moat]

What ship is that Bunker Hill?

[wild tendon]

USS Franklin

[wintry moat]

Oh

[cinder escarp]

these are not the signs of a BMP

[wild tendon]

Watch me get a "God mode" in that Pz.4

against a T72

[cinder escarp]

and the

You can see all of the individaul plates here real well

[wild tendon]

The turret seems to match, not sure about the gun, and the front part of the hull seems to elongated

[wintry moat]

what's up with the barrel?

[cinder escarp]

Barrel simply missing muzzle break.

Threaded for one though

[wintry moat]

Oj

but anywho

[cinder escarp]

It is using BMP tracks but that is probably just a bodge.

Some other surviving P4s have BMP tracks, they match the width and all that.

[wintry moat]

Weird

[wild tendon]

today I learned
Musashi took 18 bombs and 19 torpedoes in the battle of the Leyte gulf

and she was abandoned by her task force and her sister ship (Yamato), but she still refused to sink several hours after the battle

that's kinda sad

[remote monolith]

just a reminder that you don't have to worry too much about your worldbuilding sounding too contrived cause shit like this happens all the time https://x.com/krus_chiki/status/1713786920726134892?s=20

added context

[eternal veldt]

The claims were somewhat exaggerated if I recall.

[cinder escarp]

A major factor in sushi taking so much of a pounding before going under is that they were uncoordinated.

They were pretty evenly distributed, so there wasn't a (massive) list or tilt issue.

Yammy herself went down with far fewer hits because they actually made sure to attack from the same angle each time.

[wild tendon]

I just watched an 18 minute clip from the 2005 film "Yamato"
"The Sinking Of The Legendary Battleship Yamato | "Yamato" (2005)"

and man this is crazy

[strong plank]

That’s one of my favorite history fun facts

[remote monolith]

there's a timeline out there where they insists on naming the line Balashnikov and there's memes about how you get to choose between the kalashnikov and the balashnikov on gun stores

[strong plank]

Not just that his last name was Balashnikov

but that his first name is Yisrael

I just imagine mikhail rolling up to Israel in a yarmulke and fake mustache and going “you say you need a rifle?”

[wintry moat]

Sorry, that last one is properly scuffed

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-how-many-times-do-we-need-to-teach-you-old-man-slow-thick-gif-12272188

[spiral cedar]

@wild tendon We won't know for sure until someone does a full wreck site tally of the damage, but it's probable that the actual hits Musashi received was much lower than what the US pilots claimed. I go over the postwar USN assessment of Japanese records here for the "high confidence" tally of hits

[wild tendon]

ic

[spiral cedar]

Undoubtedly she was a tough ship, and her damcon equipment and crew kept her alive longer (as did the diffuse, in time and space, nature of US attacks), but I believe that still holds true without having to accept every US pilot claimed hit at face value like some sources do

[wild tendon]

yeah that much hits seems like a stretch

[lime belfry]

any theory on the new pirate ship we gonna get

I mean she did have a cross

[autumn sorrel]

So she will be Spanish, Portugal, France, English, Italian,...

[lime belfry]

nahhh She is probably English because most famous pirate ships are Brit

[autumn sorrel]

And best pirate Hunters are Spanish

[lime belfry]

the Spaniard

[desert agate]

https://fxtwitter.com/Australian_Navy/status/1714159319992660205

[lime belfry]

now that I think about it the tweet said it has been a hundred year since we met

could it be a WW1 merchant raider and not age of sail pirate ship ?

man I suck at this pirate guesssing game

[eternal veldt]

Doubtful. The tweets hint at something of "treasures of the New world" - likely hinting at a Carribean operator, during the golden age of piracy.

I'd go further and say it might be related to the Spanish treasure fleets and the sole person that manage to capture a large portion of it over the decades it ran - Piet Hien, but I have zero faith that Manjuu digs that deep.

More likely than not, it's going to be a familiar name.

[maiden citrus]

I'm keeping my treasure, see the pirate was actually me

[eternal veldt]

How could you steal an entire nation's worth of hot dogs?

You're going to cause a famine

[desert agate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRh-dzrI4Z4&ab_channel=Sunderbraze

[maiden citrus]

I will trade treasure of the new world with my friends

[remote monolith]

I think she's clearly supposed to be genderbent Gold Roger

[maiden citrus]

the hot dog, the hot dog is real

[worn ember]

that's a real panzer 4

well, kinda

it's a czech modification post war

48 or 50 of them were made i think

and delivered to syria

well, more like ''sold later to''

https://i.redd.it/vrfskn5eyh891.jpg

https://www.valka.cz/attachments/796/vu3096_050_prostejov.jpg

[manic latch]

Yeah it's Czech origin

[desert agate]

https://vxtwitter.com/atla_kouhou_jp/status/1714204056087126105?t=PqNwj-mzLUxiJcBXg0Sabw&s=19

Japan first country to fire rail gun from a ship

[supple sandal]

Uh how big the gun

Also

[spring briar]

@tough quail

[ornate wind]

Did they fuck up houston 2?

Thought it was a Cleveland

[manic latch]

It is

Houston of Northampton to Houston of Cleveland

Thus II

[ornate wind]

“Heavy cruiser”

[subtle prawn]

CN issued a corrected post calling her a light cruiser

JP got it right as well

[ornate wind]

Alright cool, historical accuracy pog

[strong plank]

manjuu
historical accuracy

[molten patio]

Well in term of ship classes....

Not the story n such

[grave ravine]

Dont look at Japanese light carriers then...

[molten patio]

lmao

[strong plank]

or northampton ii

[eternal veldt]

The Japanese light carriers are fine

An internal order in 1943 basically compiles Ryuuhou, the Chitoses and Zuihou collectively into the Zuihou class for bureaucratic purposes

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2023/10/17/u-s-army-leaders-argue-services-relevance-in-the-pacific

[wild tendon]

I heard Emo Enty is based on Late war Enterprise's (Cv-6) paint job

cause it had a more "dark" scheme to it

anybody got an image of early war and late war Enty?

[eternal veldt]

These photos should illustrate Enterprise in her pre-war configuration, circa 1940.

her appearance changed significantly after the Eastern Solomons, including a new deckhouse in her 1943 overhaul and refit.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvS8uYx9vBg

[grave ravine]

The weird thing is that even then Shoho is listed as her own class of ship, despite being the one most related to Zuiho

[thorn trail]

Uh who's that beside Enty

that's New York right?

*a New York

[remote monolith]

https://www.sci.news/paleontology/macrospondylus-bollensis-12362.html

not very exciting I know

Teleosaurids are....not that impressive

they're only maxed at about 5 meters and is basically like modern gharials

but still, paleontology

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1714695569778581788

[frozen kestrel]

Is that the USS Texas beside her?

[spiral cedar]

New York according to Navsource

[frozen kestrel]

neat

[strong plank]

arming or disarming?

[spring briar]

disarming

[wintry moat]

That is an awesome sound

[deep apex]

As someone who recycles scrap metal

As a hobby

All I see is

Money

[wintry moat]

I do it for a living

tho it's mostly HVAC equipment

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1714802391453745533

[grave ravine]

Technically there are none flying right now

The CAF's Helldiver is undergoing major engine maintenance

here's the National WW2 Aviation Museum's helldiver that they are currently restoring yo flying condition

[kindred reef]

i saw that when i went there, its very epic

they also have like 3 F7F there iirc

[chilly flower]

Saw it up close in 2021, a few photos

been some progress since then, saw some photos online where it had the spinner and a lot more cowling installed

Here we go, one from 5 days ago
even more complete then the photos from August

Very excited to see it on my next visit, dunno when though

vertical stabilizer looks to be installed now too

[chilly flower]

Two aye

[kindred reef]

oh

[wild tendon]

I heard the refit Enty was like black greyish in color (the deck)

[frozen kestrel]

Quick question: What specific variant of Zero did Akagi have? Like, were they A6M2s, A6M5s, etc.

[chilly flower]

A6M2

the A6M5 wasn't in service until about mid-late 1943

[frozen kestrel]

Thanks. Trying to get the correct technical drawings before I wanna throw myself through a window four days later realizing I modeled the wrong one

[chilly flower]

[runic ermine]

Tf kinda emote name is satania

[chilly flower]

...it's a character?
Gabriel Dropout for the one they're from

[runic ermine]

Never heard of it

Seen that girl in shitty memes tho

[eternal veldt]

Flight decks at the onset of war are stained with Deck Blue 20-B

Pre-war, original mahogany brown

[manic latch]

@tough quail https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Mount_Whitney

You know it's Nato when this ship is COMSTRIKFLTLANT and STRIKFORNATO

I LOVE ACRONYMS

[tough quail]

that's not even a fucking acronym that second one just removes three letters

what to heck

[sullen canyon]

I feel like they just got lazy with the second name for that ship

[thorny patio]

So I found an exception to the naming rule for USN amphibious transport docks (LPD)

The LPD New York

Curious, so I looked it up

Apparently it was a symbolic renaming. A substantial amount of recycled steel from the September 11th attacks were used in her construction, and the then governor requested the ship be named after the state of New York after the attacks.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_New_York_(LPD-21)

Also gotta say, that is a lovely looking ship

Kinda looks like a military cruise ship XD

[clear scroll]

Imagine if they bought a cruse ship and converted it

[thorny patio]

Not unheard of

[clear scroll]

Actually I could see that happening, converting a cruise ship into a transport including vics

[thorny patio]

Wait CRUISE ships, I just remembered that most ad-hoc transports were of the transatlantic variety

[clear scroll]

Yea

[thorny patio]

And before someone says it, the two types of ship are indeed built different

[clear scroll]

Yes

I just had another idea

[thorny patio]

But still, having a cruise ship as a troop transport? Imagine how many people you could fit in a ship that size stripped down to essentails

[clear scroll]

Converting a cruise ship into a carrier

[thorny patio]

You could probably fit a whole army

[clear scroll]

Imagine not stripping it

[thorny patio]

I mean you'd logically strip it because all that unnecessary civilian stuff

[eternal veldt]

The real brainy dea is converting a battleship into a cruise ship

As was proposed for the Mackensens

[clear scroll]

Try converting a battleship into a battle/carrier hybrid

[thorny patio]

That I could see, battlecruisers being faster than normal BBs made them particularly better suited for travel if anything

[eternal veldt]

The Japanese did - and the Ises turned into a shittier ships than before

[shrewd pecan]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/craighooper/2023/07/20/chinas-new-cruise-ships-are-an-overlooked-amphibious-assault-challenge/amp/

[eternal veldt]

Ultimately ending up as either plane bait or literal armoured oil tankers

[thorny patio]

Is the world ready? Militarized civilian ships have been a thing since... WW1? Crimea?

[shrewd pecan]

In terms of cruise ships for modern military use they can be easily converted to transport large amounts of troops for amphibious operations

[clear scroll]

Not to mention, surprise armed merchant ships in ww2

[eternal veldt]

A long time ago, truth be told

[clear scroll]

I got dishes to do

[eternal veldt]

Going back further, you already have heavily armed Indiamen

Or, if not that, slavers

[shrewd pecan]

They fell out of favor with the construction of purpose built ships alongside air transport during the Cold War

though recently they’re re emerging as a new potential troop transport platform for the pacific

[thorny patio]

I mean whats a ship-of-the-line but an upscaled militarized YHACT

I spelled that wrong

[remote monolith]

trade triremes baby

actually no that's way too far

Galeasses

and Holks/Cogs

[eternal veldt]

And then there is this stupidity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Mordaunt

[thorny patio]

Why spend more money when private companies build them for you? XD

[eternal veldt]

"Privately built trade vessel for civilian use, just heavily armed to defend herself"

[thorny patio]

I mean that's what the British did when H&W built the olympics

[remote monolith]

the Hansa send their regards

[eternal veldt]

(Has the firepower equivalent to a naval ship of the line)

Trust me bro, self defense only, its a civilian vessel

[remote monolith]

arguably Longships also falls into armed merchantmen category

[thorny patio]

The Brits were like "well finance your ships, but if we need them, we'll take them"

[remote monolith]

considering they triple as commerce, exploration, and warfare ships

[eternal veldt]

Its still the same up to WW2 for Japan

Two cruise liners were funded by the Imperial Japanese government

On the condition that they can be seized and converted into a carrier easily and on a moment's notice

[thorny patio]

Titanic was in a twisted way lucky she sank before WW1, or else she wouldn't have been as famous... She would have probably died an inglorious death by mine... Like her little sister Britanic

[eternal veldt]

Those two are the Izumo Maru and Kashiwara Maru

Or better known as Hiyou and Jun'you

[eternal veldt]

In defense of earlier ships, the armament is easier to move around

Ballistas, men, or just a select few cannons that can be moved around easily with manpower alone

[thorny patio]

And now I'm comparing RMS Olympic to USN Enterprise... Two ships that lost their siblings

[eternal veldt]

Compared to the fixtures on modern ships

[remote monolith]

and then the Byzantines with their funny napalm tubes

[thorny patio]

GREEK FIRE MY GUY

the Greeks loved that smell in the morning yah know?

[eternal veldt]

And then some things are just up to "Captain's discretion"

"Install this long 9-pounder, with the specific purpose of sniping the enemy helmsman only"

(it worked)

[thorny patio]

Speaking of the New York apparently her sister ships are to be named after the places in which the other 9/11 crashes went down

So that whole line is just one big "never forget"

The Somerset apparently has the phrase "let's roll" painted above the rear deck.

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/RyszardJonski/status/1714724655427112993

[cunning salmon]

Has USS Long Beach always looked this goofy?

Compared to the rest of the ship, the bridge is ginormous

[eternal veldt]

It's the SCANFAR radar.

[manic latch]

Scanfar

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSvn4uD8tjc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr66p7XUDVo

[frozen kestrel]

This ship has always looked like it's in constant danger of capsizing itself. the superstructure doesn't help and my friend and I (we consistently talk about ships) have literally started calling it the Megamind

dumb humor, but we figured it made sense

[manic latch]

I want to slap that head of its to plump it into water ngl

[frozen kestrel]

This is the exact photo behind the reasoning

I feel like I could kick the side of the hull and it would capsize

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1715067221687373906

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1715035978887241929

[manic latch]

@shrewd pecan SHE IS HERE

[runic ermine]

Yes. Look at that goofy bridge

[clear scroll]

Advark

[thorny patio]

Imagine if by the end of the 7days it's revealed that the new Pirate ship is something more obscure like Fancy or Whydah Gally instead of QAR

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whydah_Gally

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fancy_(ship)

OOH! or William Kidd's Quedagh Merchant

[lime belfry]

if there no Spanish sail ship I riot

[thorny patio]

Gimme a sec I gotta see if there's any notable Spanish pirate ship

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madre_de_Deus

Maaaaybe this one? Not really a pirate ship but you could make a stretch

Also it's got a cool name

Madre de Dios Mother of God

Then there's the privateer ship Heroína

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroína_(ship)

There's quite a handful of ships AL could pull from... Given I had to pull all these up and didn't know them before hand, any pirate ship can be "on the table"

[lime belfry]

ehhh Tempesta doesnt necessarily have to be pirate

Golden Hind is more of a privateer, technically HMS for hire

[thorny patio]

We talking about privateers then? Cus that expands the roster quite a bit

And allows for the inclusion of more ships from 1800s, I'd love to see some American privateer ships

[slender meadow]

So does mean the Constitution, Victory, and Wasa will be a Temprest ships?

[sacred meadow]

VARK VARK VARK VARK

[shrewd pecan]

mine layers

[shrewd pecan]

Can’t wait until I have to grind bomber line

(I have only bothered with getting the F-16s and F-14s)

[shrewd pecan]

eh

just found what squadron there using for the skin

"A left side view of an F-111A dropping 24 Mark 82 low-drag bombs in-flight over a range. The aircraft is assigned to the 391st Tactical Fighter Squadron, 366th Tactical Fighter Wing."

going by the tail markings its going to be a F-111A not a F-1111F sadly so no laser guided bombs or anything like that

"0091 to AMARC as FV0075 Jul 31, 1991. Held as spare for RAAF F-111s until they were all scrapped. To HVF West, Tucson, AZ Jan 3, 2013. Scrapped."

interesting

interesting to see that its apparently getting the bullpups as well

hopefully it will actually get GBU-15s

[tropic pawn]

@here Does anyone know what, and how many ships participate in escorting president FDR to the Tehran conference?

and in what formation

[eternal veldt]

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1943CairoTehran/d245

Saturday, November 13th. (At sea in “lowa”)
12:06 a.m. The Iowa, in company with the destroyers U. S. S. Cogswell (DD651) (Commander Destroyer Division One Hundred embarked therein), the U. S. S. Young (DD580) and the U. S. S. William D. Porter (DD579), as Task Group 27.5 with Captain McCrea as Task Group Commander, departed Hampton Roads for Oran Algeria (French North Africa). The Iowa was piloted out of the Hampton Roads area by Lieutenant Commander L. T. Stallings, U. S. Coast Guard Reserve, proceeding at various speeds and on various courses conforming to the swept channel.

by November 15th, this screen was replaced with

The United States destroyers Hall (DD583), with Commander Destroyer Squadron Fifty-One embarked therein, McComb [Macomb] (DD458) and Halligan (DD584) were sighted standing toward our Task Group from the south.

More ships and escort carriers joined in over time to Task Group 27.5. The website should give you detailed information.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAPUBVLeK7I

[manic latch]

The main hall of the Mission Control Center in Korolev. Observation of the of the Apollo-Soyuz experimental flight, July 1975

[hexed vale]

Meet HMS Gay Archer

This ship has the best name

[desert agate]

@shrewd pecan I did a deep dive on the specific F-111 they're adding in EN Lore

Definitely teasing F-111C with it

[shrewd pecan]

I’m still curious why it has bullpups

since I don’t recall the F-111 actually using them beyond testing

[manic latch]

Italy has like

Most inefficient design

I have ever seen

Using Leopard 1 hull

For a single 40mm bofors

[shrewd pecan]

What in the absolute fuck

[desert agate]

you sure theyre not AGM-69s?

[shrewd pecan]

Doesn’t seem like it

Nor do I think a nuke plane would be carrying 4 of them

[manic latch]

Can't see

[shrewd pecan]

8 AIM-9s????? God damn the F-111F is gonna be crazy when it comes out

[manic latch]

Also learned only 2 pylons move with the wing
Other 2 doesn't move and can block swept wings

[manic latch]

Last 2 is hidden inside Bombay with delay

[shrewd pecan]

still think it’s a shame we aren’t getting the late F-111F but at least the F-111As looking pretty decent load out wise

[manic latch]

Ye

But as said. Going past 4 pylons may prevent your wings going full swept mode

[desert agate]

the F-111 was such an insane aircraft

one of very few to be nerfed by international treaty

[manic latch]

I love how it's air break is also its landing gear bay

[desert agate]

i hope the F-111C gets added to the UK tree

would give the UK tree some sorely needed capability

and some actual content before eurofighters get added

[manic latch]

UK getting the only long barrel M109

Other nations getting short ones

Likely best historical camo of Mig-29

[shrewd pecan]

They probably should just smack both a F-111C and either a Canadian CF-18 or Aussie F-18 into the UK tree just to pad it out for a patch

[desert agate]

CF-18s were entirely US spec though

and the Australian Hornet modifications were uh...

lets just say the Americans werent too happy about them

and they wouldnt really change anything in game

more software hacking than anything

[shrewd pecan]

just to give the Brits something to hold them over until eurofighter

https://youtu.be/ZYSb5VsQxNY

[manic latch]

https://youtu.be/VmR90t3WEPA?si=pTqdx3HH76W8eXjY

@shrewd pecan yeah F-111 has 4 AGM-12B Bullpup

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQXxEv4Sypg

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1715449471298080978

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1715536310574690673

[remote monolith]

@spring briar so question, why did French shipbuilding in the early 20th century slowed down in comparison to British and German ones

I know they birthed some horrible predread abominations, so what relation does that has to the slowdown of ship productions

[cinder escarp]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-patrick-patrick-star-broke-poor-gif-14729256

This accurately summarizes it

There quite simply was nowhere near the funding that the British or Germans were plowing into building

[remote monolith]

huh, surprised the French has far less to work with considering their extensive colonial empire

is this a sympton of their economic policies? After-effects of the Franco-Prussian?

[spring briar]

Simply different economic policies

[remote monolith]

how different?

[grave ravine]

It's worth noting Germany had about 1.5x the population of France, and thus a similarly larger economy

Metropolitan France was just significantly smaller than the greater Germany if the late 1800s early 1900s

Britain also had a smaller population than Germany, but the combination of income from Britain's empire (which was of course significantly larger than even France's), a very mature industrial sector, and the fact that an outsize portion of British defense spending went to the navy allowed Britain to still handily outbuild Germany

[clear scroll]

Yes

Wait

Imagine if Germany and Britain teamed up

A combination of British shipbuilding and German engineering

[spring briar]

What

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U_LllZCvew

[remote monolith]

aaah

[autumn sorrel]

Having a large and easy to exploit empire actually may play a hand. Unlike Britain where the merchant class and wealthy land owner who readily embrace industrial revolution, French society don't seem to adapt that quick, plus political instability. And it is cheaper and more profitable to exploit your colonies, give loan to other country than invest in domestic industry.

Plus, French budget have to balance between a huge land army and Navy, there is so much they can pour into dockyard without triggering another political crisis in French congress over budgetary bickering.

[spring briar]

it's also
having no real fleet plans like germany
where it isn't flexible
and whatever is planned to be built is built

[silver crest]

jfk's presidential portrait goes hard

🥶

[remote monolith]

right, forgot they're right next door to Germany

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-18/diprotodon-skeletons-excavated-in-pilbara/102985942

@desert agate

[maiden citrus]

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

https://youtube.com/shorts/aAMkG5Qlvmg?si=aSYDQZL2-GbIbsgr

[silver crest]

this one of zachary taylor tho

[spring briar]

true

[desert agate]

Yeah indigenous people sent them to extinction quite quickly

[manic latch]

Japan moment

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYXKzARkKyg

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1715746437391085622

[spring briar]

[runic ermine]

Cool

[remote monolith]

a massive climate change was suspected to be responsible too

Australia used to be full of forests that suddenly disappeared

[strong plank]

they scrapped the Hiddensee

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_corvette_Hiddensee

[strong mountain]

fuk

[spring briar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwb5sQJRqYE

[runic ermine]

No

Noooo

They should have made her a museum ship

[strong plank]

she was

[runic ermine]

Sorry kept her as museum ship

[strong plank]

she was

[runic ermine]

Did you just send the same message twice?

[strong plank]

she was kept as a museum ship

from 1997-2023

[runic ermine]

Sad to see a piece of history good tho

[strong plank]

Battleship cove didn't have the funds to keep her in shape

[runic ermine]

Sad

[subtle prawn]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/argentina-acquires-four-p-3s-from-norway/

[near raptor]

That’s Yanagi

She got turned into a breakwater

It’s possible to visit her; there’s a bit of historical information and plaques around the ship

(33.9300080, 130.8221490)

Other breakwaters in the area include Suzutsuki and Fuyutsuki, however neither are recognizable as warships

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsa9Zs-S45g

[somber knoll]

Amagi is the floating dock at Yokosuka

[grave ravine]

Isn't that the US Army's new gun?

[spring briar]

no

[strong plank]

No that’s the British

iirc the Royal marines were already using an AR-patterned rifle, so this is continuing that trend

Both the US and the UK seem to want to make suppressors standard issue which is neat tho

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Carthage

The pilots involved in the operation were only told after victory in Europe the true consequences of the raid.

[humble mulch]

Looks like there's a Danish movie on it, The Shadow in My Eye

[junior trench]

The raid was requested by members of the Danish resistance movement to free imprisoned members and to destroy the records of the Gestapo, to disrupt their operations. The RAF initially turned down the request as too risky, due to the location in a crowded city centre and the need for low-level bombing but they approved the raid in early 1945 after repeated requests.

it was also the second time such a raid was conducted in Denmark, and at least the 4th time such a raid was conducted at all

[naive rampart]

@near raptor Huh, I didn’t know she ended up as a breakwater too. Wikipedia has her listed as being scrapped in 1947

[naive rampart]

So, if I understand this right, Amagi is the rectangle next to the destroyer? Or is she the part next to the carrier (I think Kaga)

Further research seems to suggest it’s the part next to the carrier

[spring briar]

Ohnooooo

[strong plank]

416 my beloved

[spring briar]

Yeah I like the gun

But why the mag

[humble mulch]

Yeah was gonna say why is there a drum on that

[warm finch]

I read about this. Apparently the natives learned that if they burned down the forests they´d have an easier time hunting game. They burnt down quite a lot of the forests and as a result left Australia as it is now.

[shrewd pecan]

it seems a lot of special forces units from across the globe are picking up higher capacity mags

[humble mulch]

Magpul makes nice drums for sure so makes sense if it's SF guys

Cause they can just do whatever

[shrewd pecan]

for both the Frenchie and Delta Force dude there running one higher capacity magazine so if there breaching a building or something similar they don't have to reload as often

[junior trench]

it's only for the first mag

also reminder that the French 416s are using a generic gasblock because they specifically rejected the H&K one

because the H&K adjustable gasblock has been causing reliability problems

[spring briar]

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1715857589135630468

[haughty osprey]

"If we're sailing from the Baltic to the Pacific than surely the Japanese are trying to do the same!"

• Imperial Russian Naval Logic

[clear scroll]

Why would the Japanese navy be in the Baltic at the time anyway

[haughty osprey]

The two countries were at war so the Russians probably figured there was a chance, however small, that Japan would launch an audacious attack on their fleet while it was in transit.

[clear scroll]

If anything the Japanese would've gone north from their island home

[haughty osprey]

Also the Anglo-Japanese Alliance was in effect which made some Russian commanders delusionally paranoid of Britain providing anchorage and arms to the Japanese.

They literally fired on a bunch of Russian boats carrying consular documents before Dogger Bank too.

[clear scroll]

Geeesh

[haughty osprey]

Like I cannot stress enough how much of an absolute circus the 2nd Pacific Squadron's journey was

You need to read it to (maybe) believe it.

[clear scroll]

Mmm

[haughty osprey]

Also Russia's newest battleships had a problem with their design that prevented access to the Suez and had to go around Africa.

[clear scroll]

Too wide?

[haughty osprey]

Draft too deep

IIRC by like 3-5 feet

[clear scroll]

Ahhh

[eternal veldt]

It worths noting that some of the accounts of the 2nd Pacific Squadron are intentionally embellished to make Rozhestvensky look like a clown

Because said writer is a communist and generally loathed the Imperials

[remote monolith]

that is likely to be part of the reason, alongside sudden climate changes, and the one two combo might have strained Australian megafauna's adaptive ability to its breaking point

[rotund yarrow]

The funny incident

Idk man those fishing boats look like Japanese torpedo boats

[last lance]

Hm why I'm not suprised? Like russians have so many friendly fire incidents

[iron raptor]

Can landing craft be kansens?

Found the katyusha of the sea

[cunning salmon]

Nowadays Russia does that with it's ship

[clear scroll]

And they call that a battleship

[desert agate]

No, they do not on both points

[clear scroll]

Then what is their battleship

[desert agate]

well they have the Kirovs which some call battlecruisers

that there is a Slava, not a Kirov

this is a Kirov

personally I'm not a fan of calling it a battlecruiser but I can understand the argument

[clear scroll]

Mmm

If anything it's a missile cruiser

Only the super structure looks anything like a battlecruser/ship

They both would be more of a missile cruiser

[desert agate]

in any case the Slavas aren't designed for shore bombardment like the MLRS LSTs of WW2/Korea, the massive missiles they carry are intended to penetrate American carrier groups and knock them out, not to say they can't be used to attack shore targets, but it's not the intended role

[clear scroll]

Mmm

Least there's actual battleships and cruisers that can be reactivated when needed

[desert agate]

the Kirovs meanwhile are intended to protect the Soviets from constant attacks by F-14s so that the Slavas can make their missile attack

you mean the Iowas? reactivating them would be a ridiculous notion in this day and age

[clear scroll]

Well the US navy actually has a reactivation plan for when they do wanna bring em back

[desert agate]

ignoring the fact that they're hopelessly obsolete, there is no one in the USN today who actually knows how to use their systems

[clear scroll]

Sure, big naval guns have fallen out of favour to missiles, but best part is there is no counter to shells unlike missiles

Well, harder to counter

[desert agate]

the last Iowa left service over 30 years ago, even trying to reignite the engines is an exercise in futility

[clear scroll]

That's because their steam powered

Takes like...an hour at most to get up to steam

30mins to an hour

[desert agate]

an Iowas maximum firing range is 47km
an AGM-158C LRASM has a maximum range of 926km

[desert agate]

from a cold start an Iowa takes around a full day to build up steam and thats with a trained crew

again

[clear scroll]

Where'd you hear that

[desert agate]

nobody in the USN today knows how to light an Iowas boilers

[clear scroll]

That's why they kept the documentation on board the ships

[desert agate]

yeah except you now have to dig out all that documentation, learn what it means and train personnel on it

and thats of course the first hurdle

[shrewd pecan]

why would you bother reactivating a Iowa

[desert agate]

the next hurdle is that there's no more ammunition

nor spare guns

[shrewd pecan]

when it would be easier to just smack the M1299's gun on a San Antonio

[desert agate]

and we can't make more

[shrewd pecan]

there's far better options these days for naval gun fire support than the Iowa's

[clear scroll]

Yea infrastructure for ammo and gun barrels is a big issue

Missiles can be countered

And you can carry a lot more shells than you can missiles

Underway replenishment of shells is easier

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1299_howitzer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Gun_System
https://www.leonardo.us/defense-systems-oto-vulcano

[desert agate]

yes that's all well and good but in what world are you getting in range to fire said guns

[shrewd pecan]

you can shoot down gun rounds

[clear scroll]

When the enemy runs out of missiles and you speed run towards the

[desert agate]

how in gods name are you expecting to survive a missile bombardment in an Iowa

[tough quail]

its not so much a "big issue" as it is absolutely crippling because that industry no longer exists to produce them

[clear scroll]

Armour of course

[tough quail]

if your strategy requires the enemy to run out of ammo before killing you... Uh...

[shrewd pecan]

most modern missiles would just punch right through the belt

[desert agate]

armour would not save an Iowa from a missile bombardment

[spring briar]

~39 km

[shrewd pecan]

that also doesn't really change the fact any modern destroyer can just dump its anti ship missiles at a Iowa and just disengage before the Iowa can ever get in range itself

[desert agate]

even if missiles couldn't penetrate the belt (they can), the sheer amount of damage done to the upper works of an Iowa would render the ship entirely mission killed

[tough quail]

to my understanding most modern missiles would absolutely not get through the belt, because they're not really intended to breach targets like that anymore - but making missiles that could is incredibly simple

you just need someone to give a shit enough to do it again

[clear scroll]

You do realise it's called Countermeasures right?

[eternal veldt]

There were a couple close calls with Missouri during Desert Storm, IIRC

[shrewd pecan]

what type of counter measures are you rocking that's making a Iowa successfully defend itself from a P-8000 swarm?

[tough quail]

hopes and dreams

[shrewd pecan]

blind luck?

[desert agate]

there is a missile, in service today, with a range of nearly 1000km, that is capable of detecting enemy radar pickets, avoiding them, finding the flag ship of a task force and then hitting it where it determines it will do the most damage, all without giving out any radar emissions, and is low radar observable, meaning effectively the only way of detecting and engaging it, is by picking it up on radar and shooting it down in the 20-30 seconds between it appearing on the horizon and ploughing throught the bridge

[eternal veldt]

Iowa has...what? two CIWS per broadside?

[shrewd pecan]

she has 4 phalanxes

and stingers

[clear scroll]

Smoke, chaff, radar jamming, ciws

[shrewd pecan]

what is smoke going to do to radar...

[clear scroll]

That's why I said chaff

[eternal veldt]

No AEGIS systems on board either

[tough quail]

this is navy man not air to air baby shit

[clear scroll]

And considering the us has lasers on a few destroyers how about those too

[tough quail]

not that.. chaff even really works air to air anymore

[shrewd pecan]

like 80s/90s Iowa's had the benefit of carrying more anti ship missiles & cruise missiles than most other surface combatants

but she for now is both incredibly obsolete and in bad shape

[clear scroll]

New jersey is due for drydocking anyway

[desert agate]

yeah, to clean her hull and make minor repairs, as all museum ships require

[clear scroll]

Exactly

[desert agate]

HMAS Vampire just came out of drydock and we're hardly talking about reactivating her

[shrewd pecan]

the 16 inchers even for naval gun fire support are obsolete and the industry for maintaining them just doesn't exist anymore

[tough quail]

at this point just build some fake superstructure and bow extensions on a burke and make it look vaguely like an iowa so people stop asking

[maiden citrus]

begins drawing up plans while high on hot dog condiments

[clear scroll]

XD

[spring briar]

Maka on that relish energy

[shrewd pecan]

that 40 inch RHA belt gonna go crazy

[tough quail]

what if we put

a really big net around the ship to catch the missiles

[desert agate]

there's really no circumstance in which an Iowa is relevant in the modern world

[shrewd pecan]

it would be easier to just

[desert agate]

theyre museums, let them stay that way

[shrewd pecan]

build a entirely new ship

[spring briar]

Coastal bombing New York city

[shrewd pecan]

than to reactive them

[tough quail]

not only do you stop the missiles you can pick them up out of the net and now you have more missiles too

[spring briar]

And I think that is a very useful thing

[shrewd pecan]

especially considering you'd have to gut the entire interior of the damn thing anyways to make it meet modern crew standards

and to you know

make it able to accommodate female crew

[maiden citrus]

a spinning hula hoop around the superstructure with a depleted uranium chunk on a cable to deflect missiles away by crashing into them

advanced defenses

[tough quail]

oh no not WOMEN

[spring briar]

I’ll make sure not to hit the hot dog vendors

[desert agate]

i think if we yell at the missiles loud enough they'll go away

maybe we should ask to see the missiles manager

[maiden citrus]

modified ship horn to cause air-traveling sonar, kills all animals within 50 miles, but also fries missiles

crew to be restocked after ship autopilots to a base

[tough quail]

how will an iowa cope with being intimidated by a P-800s weird missile foreskin

[spring briar]

Power the ship with a mouth harmonica

[desert agate]

okay so

take an Iowa

remove the turrets

and all other armament

cover it in LRASM-SL

you now have a modern surface combatant

enjoy winning wars

[tough quail]

just take the cool bridge of an iowa and put it on other stuff and there you go

[spring briar]

Still gonna sink in the Atlantic

[shrewd pecan]

think New Jersey's museum released a video detailing a few 1990s retrofit proposals for the ship and how one of the main concerns was trying to fit both modern crew amenities alongside accommodations for female crew in a ship that was designed for neither of them in mind

[maiden citrus]

it already has a hot dog making kitchen I feel it's good

I'm accomodated

[tough quail]

upset i got nothing for missile foreskin honestly

[desert agate]

tfw theres an armoured bulkhead between you and the ships onboard wifi router

[spiral cedar]

My understanding is that the requirement to actually maintain them in “returnable to service” state was quietly dropped a few decades ago, and they’re now long past any hope of reactivation

[maiden citrus]

an entire beef storage locker freezer big enough to walk in, what other accomodations do you need

[tough quail]

they were kind of failing at that even before they were reactivated the first time

[shrewd pecan]

it was dropped in the mid 2000s

[tough quail]

hence iowa herself

longing for death

[shrewd pecan]

even if the cold war persisted the things weren't making it past the early 2000s anyways with half of class being devested from in the 90s regardless

[tough quail]

remember the iowa turret explosion was caused by her failing her sea trials so many times dudes in the navy got bored enough to do really stupid firing trials on her while waiting for the next chance

[desert agate]

reaganomics can only take you so far in the navy

[spiral cedar]

As for their late Cold War reactivation, my understanding is that that was mostly done not for their guns, but because they were comparatively cheaper to convert into Tomahawk barges than building one from scratch

[shrewd pecan]

pretty much

[tough quail]

yeah

[shrewd pecan]

their guns did end up being rather useful in Lebanon and the Gulf

[spring briar]

Someone said richie’s 50mm and dunk’s 40mm bulkheads are “WW1 era thinking”

[shrewd pecan]

but there's far better options for that now

[tough quail]

what the fuck does that even mean

[spiral cedar]

I mean, so are protective helmets. Doesn’t make them a bad idea

[desert agate]

WW1 thinking is building battleships in the first place

[maiden citrus]

I find their lack of faith in bulkheads to be very civil war era thinking

[spiral cedar]

🪖

[spring briar]

I don’t think they meant it in a bad way

More in a “ww1 era thinking isn’t always obsolete” way

Which I agree

[tough quail]

when why the knife

[spring briar]

Since artillery is always a good idea

[tough quail]

you're giving us mixed messages smh

[spiral cedar]

What WWI battleships used armored turret bulkheads though…?

[manic latch]

I agree

[tough quail]

AAAAAAA

[shrewd pecan]

besides gun artillery had its peak and we failed to embrace it

[spring briar]

I think they were just referring to Bayern’s 30mm behind the belt angled bulkhead

30mm not enough

Tho

Especially for a ship that is supposed to receive 15” shells

[spiral cedar]

Yeah

For cruiser shells and for spall, sure

[spring briar]

Those splinters will simply ignore that 30mm

[spiral cedar]

But not BB fragments

[clear scroll]

155mm...that's cruiser calibre

[shrewd pecan]

and?

[desert agate]

its modern artillery calibre too

rip 208s, you wont be missed

[spring briar]

Reminder that we reached “modern” shell design in 1916

[shrewd pecan]

the M110 will always be in my heart

[tough quail]

who the fuck uses 208s

[eternal veldt]

probably referring to 203

and 8"

[desert agate]

wait fuck the long toms 155 too

[eternal veldt]

Russians with their 220mms

[shrewd pecan]

rest in peace my sweet prince

[tough quail]

but yes, 6" gang

[spring briar]

M55?

[shrewd pecan]

M110

[spring briar]

Well I was half correct

[tough quail]

even if the B-4 is really funny

[shrewd pecan]

my favorite redfor infantry line nuker

[eternal veldt]

Thought that was the AMX 13 F3 for a sec

[spring briar]

Kek

[tough quail]

it does look like that, yeah

[desert agate]

more AMX-13 based SPGs

please

[tough quail]

more AMX-13 based everything

restart production

the world is ready

[desert agate]

I want to see what the biggest gun we can fit on one is

[shrewd pecan]

it's literally just a M115 howitzer on a tracked mount though

[desert agate]

dont the French still put out upgrade packages for the AMX-13?

because theres still like half a dozen operators

[tough quail]

likely

[shrewd pecan]

I mean

the kornet AMX-13s do stillexist

[tough quail]

OH RIGHT

[desert agate]

look at he

[tough quail]

party wagon

[desert agate]

https://tenor.com/view/vengabus-vengaboys-party-gif-13335403

[shrewd pecan]

remember folks

[tough quail]

i kinda want to see a bunch of exocets strapped to an amx-13 now

[desert agate]

wikipedias disrespect of the AMX-13 tho

[spring briar]

France implementing “modern” shells in 1870

Look at that

Artillery here to stay

[spiral cedar]

Chain shot

[shrewd pecan]

did the French invent this as well?

[spring briar]

I think the Germans did

[tough quail]

f o r e s k i n

[desert agate]

looks like 1916 to me

[spring briar]

They experimented with 15cm ramjet shells at peenemunde iirc

Or something similar atleast

[desert agate]

oh yes since our favourite plane game is adding the F-111

I have a need

to post my pdfs

[shrewd pecan]

thinking about it did anyone ever experiment with rocket assisted shells for naval guns?

[spring briar]

Varkin time?

[desert agate]

i love the pig

[spring briar]

What do you mean exactly by rocket assisted

[clear scroll]

Doubt it

[clear scroll]

Self propelled shells

[desert agate]

https://tenor.com/view/f-111-gif-14318366144625930430

[spring briar]

Because base bleed shells are technically rocket assisted

[shrewd pecan]

as in rocket assisted rounds you'd see in artillery rounds

[clear scroll]

We had those in our airforce

[desert agate]

I am

very

very aware

[spring briar]

Plenty of times then

Since if its simply assisted and not propelled

[spring briar]

Any base bleed shell applies

[desert agate]

dont the modern 5in naval guns have base bleed

[spring briar]

Most modern shells do

Look it up

[shrewd pecan]

I'm not really thinking base bleed

though the WIkipedia article for base bleed does show the Swedish 12 CM as having base bleed shells

[clear scroll]

Your thinking of that experimental shell that had a rocket motor in its base aren't ya

[shrewd pecan]

No this is a actual thing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M549

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket-assisted_projectile

[clear scroll]

Yea

[desert agate]

AGS had a rocket assisted projective

[shrewd pecan]

suppose LRLAP would count yeah

[desert agate]

zumwaltcells stay seething

[shrewd pecan]

"The LRLAP would have used a rocket-assisted projectile with fin glide trajectory. The warhead effectiveness was considered comparable to that of the M795 artillery shell, and with the AGS it would have been capable of 6 round Multiple Rounds Simultaneous Impact (MRSI) in a span of 2 seconds.[2] It would have used a blast fragmentation type warhead.[3]"

the more I look at the AGS and LRLAP the more I believe the navy shouldn't be allowed to develop its own gun systems that aren't 127 MMs

[desert agate]

Futuristic Iowa replacement for shore bombardment when it encounters JASSM

[shrewd pecan]

HEY LOOK AGS BUT ACTUALLY AFFORDABLE AND FIELDABLE

"The M1299 is armed with a new 155 mm L/58 caliber long, a 9.1 m gun tube, XM907 gun, designed by Benét Laboratories that will fire the XM1113 rocket-assisted round. This will give a range of over 70 km – much greater than the 38 km (24 mi) of the M109A7 Paladin."

XM115 brings the maximum range up to over 110 KM as well

the Germans were onto to something here honestly

[clear scroll]

Mmhm

Tank turret on a destroyer

[shrewd pecan]

nope

[clear scroll]

I know it's a self propelled arty one but still

[shrewd pecan]

self propelled artillery

there's no real point in developing a entirely different gun

when you can just navalize the land systems

[clear scroll]

Yes

[shrewd pecan]

PZH-2000 specifically would of needed a entirely different turret/mount for the gun considering it wouldn't be practical to use the PZH-2000 turret itself considering it's using a semi autoloader over the full autoloaded guns ships use

but if you really need naval gun fire support and a 127 MM can't cut it there's really no reason why you shouldn't be looking at navalizing some of the land systems out there

[clear scroll]

Mmm

[shrewd pecan]

in terms of AGS to be fair most of the capability the navy was looking for didn't really exist yet when Zumwalt entered development

[clear scroll]

Yea

To me the zumwalt was a waste of money

[shrewd pecan]

ehhhhhh

the navy's found a niche for them that only they can really do right now compared to the rest of the fleet

[clear scroll]

As a experimental platform for new tech I guess but in practice nahh

[shrewd pecan]

Once they get their retrofits for hypersonic missiles there basically gonna be the only platform capable of fielding hypersonics until DDG(X) and Block V Virginia start showing up

[clear scroll]

Mmm

I honestly don't get why nations are after hypersonic for more and more

[shrewd pecan]

its a capability that lets you deep strike your opponent with a missile that is hard to intercept and to detect if you don't have the right detection infrastructure

[spiral cedar]

Because you need very good all-around sensor networks to detect them in time to intercept (which very few nations have), and the time-to-target is low

[shrewd pecan]

there's a reason why the US is investing billions in expanding its early warning capabilities

[spiral cedar]

Yeah

[clear scroll]

How old is their early warning system

[shrewd pecan]

It's not age its coverage

[spiral cedar]

Missile nerdery aside at this stage it's most important to launch the right missiles at the right time, moreso than whether X missile is capable of killing Y missile

[junior trench]

they can play peekaboo with SSNs

that alone would already make them worth it

[shrewd pecan]

I mean if you have enough reaction time really any ABM capable air defense system can down a hypersonic

[junior trench]

"hypersonics" are moving slower than BMs at terminal interception ranges

[shrewd pecan]

the speeds make it difficult for the missile to maneuver and they have to maintain relatively high attitudes to maintain speed

[junior trench]

BMs are just full sending yeeting themselves out of the sky at max speed

"hypersonics" are still trying to give lip service to manuevering

[spiral cedar]

https://www.csis.org/analysis/complex-air-defense-countering-hypersonic-missile-threat

PDF in this link is a good place to start reading on the topic

[clear scroll]

Imagine someone putting a warhead on a falcon9

[shrewd pecan]

what do you think most of NASA's rockets were converted from pre space X?

[clear scroll]

Most of em blew up if I remember

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-118_Peacekeeper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur_IV

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-30_Minuteman#Satellite_launching_role

[autumn sorrel]

This is actually something Soviet might actually does, if the ship is gonna be in limited operational range anyway, might as well turn it into an Arsenal ship

[desert agate]

there are true hypersonic missiles coming

even an air launched one being developed by the RAAF

[clear scroll]

Mmm

[clear scroll]

Do we know if they will be used on the ghostbat?

[desert agate]

not likely

from what i can gather its mainly intended for whatever will replace the Super Hornet

be that F-35 or a 6th gen plane

[grave ravine]

Eh, you have done something wrong if you need something beyond a normal DD 5" for NGFS

And there are a number of things you have to deal with when navalizing a gun

Plus ERCA probably won't have brilliant barrel life, which is something you want, and can afford usually afford, on a naval gun

[clear scroll]

To be honest the hornet is more of a fighter than the f35 at least to me, to me the F35 is a more advanced F117 and harrier in one (for B varient at least), plus the hornet can go supersonic at higher speeds and can maintain it for extended times than the F35 which can only go supersonic for like 60 seconds or so otherwise the paint will peel and burn off

I honestly don't see the F35 than more than a deep air penetrator

[junior trench]

screaming in points refuted a thousand times

[shrewd pecan]

the Super Hornet has less thrust than the F-35 with a heavier and larger airframe

[clear scroll]

The engine for the F35 was designed for the original B varient which is a VTOL

[shrewd pecan]

the super hornet is heavier than the F-15C with half the thrust as well

even in a dog fight the F-35s gonna out turn the super hornet and out run it

[clear scroll]

The hornet has the top speed advantage don't forget

[shrewd pecan]

No it does not

they both top out at mach 1.6

[clear scroll]

The f35 can't even go supersonic for long or else the paint will peel off as I stated before

[shrewd pecan]

the pilot is not gonna give a shit about the paint peeling if he's in the middle of combat

[junior trench]

boo

get new material

[clear scroll]

The military does

[clear scroll]

The next best stealth coating is on the F22

[shrewd pecan]

losing a plane is a much more expensive loss than replacing paint

[desert agate]

i

[shrewd pecan]

[junior trench]

you're parroting myths from 3 years ago

[desert agate]

ive said enough on the F-35 the pros and the cons

[junior trench]

get new material

[desert agate]

especially for the RAAF

fact is the F-35 is good

it isnt perfect

not by any means

[shrewd pecan]

at both high speeds and low speeds the 35s gonna out turn and out accelerate the Super Hornet

[desert agate]

but its still a highly capable platform

[autumn sorrel]

Need navalized F-111

[desert agate]

F-111B too fat for carriers

[clear scroll]

We do t even have a proper carrier

[shrewd pecan]

sometimes I wonder just how

[autumn sorrel]

Make one, skill issue

[clear scroll]

All we have are amphibious assault carriers which would do well with a f35B

[clear scroll]

GDP and manpower idiot

[desert agate]

[junior trench]

5. ‘When our envelope
   was cleared to practise BFM we got
   the opportunity to fight some fourthgeneration fighters. Remember, back
   then the rumors were that the F-35
   was a pig. The first time the opponents
   showed up [in the training area] they
   had wing tanks along with a bunch of
   missiles. I guess they figured that being
   in a dirty configuration wouldn’t really
   matter and that they would still easily
   outmaneuver us. By the end of the week,
   though, they had dropped their wing
   tanks, transitioned to a single centerline
   fuel tank and were still doing everything
   they could not to get gunned by us. A
   week later they stripped the jets clean of
   all external stores, which made the BFM
   fights interesting, to say the least

[shrewd pecan]

why they decided to make the super hornet so obese and not give it new engines with actual thrust

[junior trench]

also

Hornet's stop speed is while clean, no external loads of any kind

aka

useless

[clear scroll]

Bullshit

[desert agate]

Super Hornet is old and needs replacement

[shrewd pecan]

like the thing is heavier and as big as a F-15 with half the thrust....

[desert agate]

F-35 could be a good replacement for it

[clear scroll]

If it weren't so expensive

[desert agate]

but in my opinion, the 6th gen platforms currently in development are superior

[shrewd pecan]

a new super hornet is more expensive than a F-35A

[junior trench]

get new jokes

[desert agate]

F-35 is cheaper to buy, and cheaper to operate per hour of flight than Super Hornet

[clear scroll]

That's highly debatable as the 5th gen aircraft aren't even combat proven

[junior trench]

oh god

you're one of those people

[shrewd pecan]

have you been living under a rock for 6 years?

[junior trench]

High-g maneuvering is fun, but having
high fuel capacity and the ability to carry
lots of stores is great too. During the weeks
when we were flying BFM we also needed
to drop a GBU-12 [laser-guided bomb] on
the China Lake weapons range. Back in our
F-16 days we’d have had to choose, since
there is no way you can BFM with a bomb
on your wing, let alone having the fuel to
fly both missions in a single sortie. With
the F-35, however, this isn’t much of an
issue. On one of the sorties, my colleague,
Maj Pascal ‘Smiley’ Smaal, decided he
would fly BFM and still have enough fuel
to go to the range afterwards and drop his
weapon. During the debrief, the adversary
pilot told us he was confused as to why
we went to the range after the fight. When
‘Smiley’ told him that he was carrying an inert GBU-12 the entire time and that he
then dropped it afterwards during a test
event, the silence on the other end of the
line was golden

[desert agate]

well they are but thats besides the point

I would note that Ghost Bat is more or less specifically designed for 6th gen integration

[junior trench]

please don't call anything 6th gen

[shrewd pecan]

Israels already scored air to air kills with their F-35s man

[junior trench]

no one even knows what they want from "6th gen"

[desert agate]

okay then NGAD

both USAF and USN

[clear scroll]

Emphasis on AI

[autumn sorrel]

Israeli would like to have a word about that

[clear scroll]

What about tempest

[desert agate]

lol

RAAF wont be buying Tempest

I can tell you that much

[junior trench]

Tempest's features are the F-35's roadmap

[desert agate]

the service life extension to 2032 for the Super Hornet is specifically so RAAF can evaluate F/A-XX

and decide whether they want it, or more F-35s

given the issues with the F-35 program for the RAAF, I've no doubt that they will go for F/A-XX

the issues RAAF has had with F-35 are nothing to do with what you've said already

[clear scroll]

A flying wing arrow?

[desert agate]

thats what early renders have shown

i wouldnt trust them though

[clear scroll]

Still

[junior trench]

also that "muh supersonic paint stripping" bullshit comes because testing with the F-35B/C airframes at Mach 1.6 for hours showed damage to skin coatings and antennae... which is a speed only the F-35A can pull off atm

but you'll note the F-35A, which is the majority of airframes, doesn't have that issue

[desert agate]

the criticisms of the F-35 program are far too boring for clueless journalists to self-fellate about these days

[shrewd pecan]

how many F-35Cs even exist at this point

30?

[desert agate]

and the old criticisms are well, old, and basically all resolved

[clear scroll]

As many as the US has on their carriers

[shrewd pecan]

like there's over a thousand F-35As

F-35B marines have already over 100

[desert agate]

USN isnt fond of F-35 in its current state

[shrewd pecan]

no anti ship weapon integration yet

[desert agate]

I seriously doubt we'll see F-35C proliferating in the fleet until block 4 comes about

[shrewd pecan]

yeah

[desert agate]

which yknow

leaves USN airpower at a bit of a weaker point in capability

especially with block 4 being delayed

but theyre still obscenely capable so im sure theyll make do

[manic latch]

Ye Blok 4 was the promised F-35

Current F-35s are like beta release

[desert agate]

its a little more complicated than that but yes, block 4 should have been the first mass production airframe, or at least should have been ready well before 1000 block 3s were built

[shrewd pecan]

eh I think its more accurate to compare the F-35 blocks to phantom variants

since Block 3 and Block 4 are looking like the difference between a F-4C and a F-4E

[clear scroll]

Seriously? Comparing the F35 to the F4?

[shrewd pecan]

I'm talking in terms of capability leaps between variants

[desert agate]

i mean

the programs surprisingly have a lot of common development goals

a universal airframe for use between the navy and air force for starters

and the use of as much cutting edge technology in the avionics to make flying the aircraft as easy as possible to allow pilots to focus far more on combat than wrestling the airframe

[shrewd pecan]

"
F-4C
Two-seat all-weather tactical fighter, ground-attack version for the United States Air Force; supported a wide spectrum of weapons including AIM-4 Falcon, AGM-12 Bullpup, and nuclear weapons; wider main wheel tires resulted in distinctive wing bulges; J79-GE-15 engines with provision for cartridge start; boom refueling instead of Navy's probe and drogue refueling; AN/APQ-100 radar; duplicated flight controls in the rear cockpit. The aircraft exceeded Mach 2 during its first flight on 27 May 1963; 583 built."

"F-4E
USAF version with an integral M61 Vulcan cannon in the elongated RF-4C nose, AN/APQ-120 radar with smaller cross-section to accommodate the cannon, J79-GE-17 engines with 17,900 lbf (79.379 kN) of afterburner thrust each. Late-series aircraft equipped with leading-edge slats to improve maneuverability at the expense of top speed under the Agile Eagle program. Starting with Block 53, aircraft added AGM-65 Maverick capability and smokeless J79-GE-17C or -17E engines. First flight 1 August 1965. The most numerous Phantom variant; 1,370 bui"

F-4E introduced multiple weapons integrations, targetting pods and other major improvements over the F-4C

[clear scroll]

1 problem with the phantom tho

It had to use a gun pod

[shrewd pecan]

if you say anything about the gun....

[clear scroll]

Too late

[shrewd pecan]

most kills in Vietnam were scored by air to air missiles

[junior trench]

this goofy mfer bringing the gun up when it's the F-4E being mentioned

[desert agate]

[shrewd pecan]

the issue was not the lack of a gun it was training and poor command & Control infrastructure

[desert agate]

i hate the gun myth i hate the gun myth

[shrewd pecan]

anyway

[junior trench]

even besides the gun myth

the F-4E... has an internal one

goofy aaaaaaaaa must just think it applies for all models

over the like... 3 decades of US service

[clear scroll]

Well i wasn't born in that era so how could I know

[junior trench]

READ

even some basic thought

would do the job

"Would something stay the same for more than 30 years? Maybe I should check."

[autumn sorrel]

Iirc, VNAF actually regulate MiG-17/19 back to point defense where they rely of radar guidance and terrain to perform ambush on US aircraft later in the war while MiG-21 was use mostly with missile later on

[desert agate]

of the planes that flew in Project Featherduster, iirc only the F-100 pilots said having a gun actually helped them in in the exercise, and 2/3 Phantom crews explicitly said having a gun would have put them at a further disadvantage

only the USN actually decided a gun would have helped and thats because the USN used their backseaters differently to USAF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmgbbQhxoTE&ab_channel=NotAPoundForAirToGround

I would really reccomend this video on it

[clear scroll]

Noted

[desert agate]

and ignore all other discourse about Featherduster especially when anyone mentions the F-104

[clear scroll]

Here's a good brain teaser for y'all, best interceptor fighter of its time

[desert agate]

mmmuh F-104 beat Sabres because internal gun, should have replaced Phantom

[clear scroll]

For me this would be my number 1 fighter, least for me

[shrewd pecan]

oh right I still have to update my server nickname

[desert agate]

that the F-102 or F-106

[shrewd pecan]

F-106

[spiral cedar]

Yeah, the NV aircraft got spanked in head-on fights, and switched to individual ambushes from behind that gave up on stopping strikes for achieving a less terrible loss ratio while still forcing many attackers to jettison bombs to deal with them

[clear scroll]

Just out of curiosity, what are you guys favourite jets

[shrewd pecan]

ah

"F-106C: Unbuilt version. Aircraft was intended to have the AN/ASG-18 radar and fire control system fitted originally developed for the North American XF-108 Rapier. For its time, it was the largest radar to ever be fitted to a fighter, actually requiring hydraulic actuators to turn the antenna. To accommodate this larger radar system, the nose cone was longer and of greater diameter. The design featured an improved raised canopy design featuring better visibility, canards and lengthened rectangular inlet ducts. The aircraft was to be capable of carrying one GAR-9/AIM-47A in its center bay and one AIM-26A in each side bay. At one time, the US Air Force had considered acquiring 350 of these advanced interceptors, but the F-106C/D project was cancelled on 23 September 1958."

[desert agate]

Vietnamese ground control made US doctrine somewhat flawed

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/ASG-18

[desert agate]

F-111

[shrewd pecan]

F-106 with look down capability

[clear scroll]

Ok not bad, mine is the tomcat

[desert agate]

fake australian

[spiral cedar]

[desert agate]

punishment is exile in Tasmania

[clear scroll]

Bite me, I love the F14

The F14 calls to me

Cause I feel the need, the need for speed

[clear scroll]

Yesh

[spiral cedar]

Something I’m curious about. It’s sometimes said that 1991 Baghdad’s air defense system was more sophisticated and advanced than even Hanoi at the height of the Vietnam War. What led Iraq to develop this air defense capability to such a degree?

[shrewd pecan]

ah here it is

[clear scroll]

What happened during that time

[shrewd pecan]

I mean they were under sustained Iranian air raids during the Iran-Iraq war

that additionally saw the Israeli Airforce performing both the bombing of the Iraqi nuclear program alongside Israeli deep recon flights into Iraq itself

[clear scroll]

I read somewhere the F14 could fire 8 missiles at once

[shrewd pecan]

I mean it can if its rocking the full pheonix load with the two AIM-9s

but if its that close in the Pheonix's likely aren't hitting anything

[clear scroll]

Mmm the phoenix were long range radar guided while sidewinder short range thermal

[shrewd pecan]

Phoenix's aren't all that good at hitting manuevering targets

additionally running 6 phoenix's put additional strain on the airframe

[clear scroll]

One thing bithers me

Some sources say it was a F14 that got its wing ripped off and still flew and landed safely others say it was a F15

[shrewd pecan]

That was

a 15

[clear scroll]

Ok

[clear scroll]

That's right

The F14 I understand could do it cause of the fuselage shape but the f15...how?

[shrewd pecan]

the thing's engines don't suck unlike the tomcats

F-15 is basically a rocket with how powerful its engines are

[clear scroll]

Well...it did follow a rocket up as well as hit a satellite so I guess

[clear scroll]

Hooo

[shrewd pecan]

The tomcat didn't get good engines

until the F-14B got it the F-15/F-16 engines

[clear scroll]

I know they fixed the conpressor stall with the B

Although the pilots were good at shutting down and restarting the A engines mid maneuver

[desert agate]

pretty sure thats just a scene in top gun

[clear scroll]

Nope

They actually did that

They never did it in either movie