#history
shrewd pecan
its going to airborne units first
but when are airborne units
you know
going to actually air drop in combat
their primary strength has always been strategic mobility
and the M10 gives enough capability while still being light enough to be strategically mobile
grave ravine
Ok yeah that's true
spring briar
What gun does the M10 get
grave ravine
M35
spring briar
Cal.?
shrewd pecan
105 MM
grave ravine
The old lightweight 105
grave ravine
Fires normal L7 rounds
spring briar
Funni throwback
shrewd pecan
Different gun from the M68
grave ravine
The one on the og abrams
No it's a lighter weight gun than L7
shrewd pecan
Same ammo
grave ravine
Gun was actually made for AGS IIRC
shrewd pecan
M256 can’t use HESH
grave ravine
They are making new 105 AMP for Booker
shrewd pecan
I can imagine it’s gonna be issued HESH for anti structure work
shrewd pecan
they really should of just kept the XM360 from the original M10 prototype then
grave ravine
The problem with 120 is that it cut into ammo storage
shrewd pecan
I suppose it would but considering how big the M10 is I can’t imagine it would of been as bad as either the 120 MM of the M8 or the mere 18 rounds the MGS got
manic latch
<:GarfTrollge:902951789924585513> they really should of just kept the XM360 from...
American Sprut
Based
shrewd pecan
eh 105 will still get the job done I suppose
manic latch
Hmm
Wonder if Sprut would be better with BMP 3 turret
Wait that's Bmp 3
120mm Bradley when
shrewd pecan
honestly the entire VDV would of been better if they just scrapped the BMD chassis
And went with entirely BMP-3 variants aimed at air mobility
And dropped the airborne requirements
manic latch
How do
humble mulch
Oh
Wait so I ordered some Vietnam model kits
Got 2x Heuys, a Sherdain, and then a T-55 and a BTR-60
manic latch
Hell didn't M10 Booker had plan to be airdropped first then cancelled it because how hard it's to do it without compromise
humble mulch
I assume all were painted in basic bitch dad went to get milk Olive drab/dark green?
manic latch
Got 2x Heuys, a Sherdain, and then a T-55 and a BTR-60
Btr 60 is cute af
humble mulch
They are so adorable yeah
My idea was to try to kitbash the T-55 into the Romanian version, and kitbash some dudes so I can make a Revolution Diorama
shrewd pecan
BMD armor doesn't exist since
They have to be airdropped
Which dramatically limits the amount of protection
manic latch
Yup
shrewd pecan
Now uhhh
When you’re watching VDV units get completely wiped by small arms and heavy machine guns because their vehicles did not offer sufficient protection
And due to the limitations of said vehicles it limits both their situational awareness nor infantry numbers to deal with it
manic latch
BMD 2 and Sheridan flipping
shrewd pecan
I generally don’t think your investment into air dropped IFVs that you don’t have enough cargo planes to deploy is a good investment
manic latch
Yup
Otokar Tulpar with Korhan 35 turret with Akkor APS and multispectral camouflage.
humble mulch
Does the camo netting fuck with like IR and stuff?
manic latch
Yup
shrewd pecan
yes
humble mulch
Oh fucking baller I didn't know there was a way past those
manic latch
Warmth*
manic latch
Oh fucking baller I didn't know there was a way past those
How it looks for Btr-80
humble mulch
Do they like spin? Like is that why it's textured?
Lmao
If your cold they're cold moment
manic latch
Lmao
If your cold they're cold moment
It's best defense for Javelin other than APS
Paint is expensive tho. Camo is cheaper irrc
humble mulch
Ahhh
manic latch
Ahhh
If you want b-2 mode
Try CV90120-T Ghost
Likely most stealthy tank of world
In war thunder its gimmick should be having hard time getting lock by IR missiles
Likely event vehicle since only 1 exists irrc
warm finch
How it looks for Btr-80
Was he cold
manic latch
It's anti thermal camo yes
tough quail
now what if we put a second layer on
manic latch
Iranian "Abu Mahdi" naval cruise missile (first shown in 2020) with range over 1000 km entered in service of the Army and IRGC navies
It's reported that the Abu Mahdi missile is equipped with dual active and passive radar homing head for accurately hitting moving sea targets.
warm finch
Iran is sort of like a reverse sweden, applying western philosophies to eastern technology in many cases.
strong plank
End user testimony begs to differ
maiden citrus
Yeah I see people had a big normal cope in here while I was asleep
strong plank
Dude I can’t believe they made push the payload style battles into a real thing
platoon of marines sent to escort unmanned missile platform
set upon by enemy foot mobiles
whole battle becomes a back and forth of who has the funny robot
random trench
It's reported that the Abu Mahdi missile is equipped with dual active and pass...
To this day I don’t believe the Iranians can produce anything of value
But then again they made the Shahed which is pretty dope
shrewd pecan
there master copiers
wintry moat
the grave yard
Cold war Grave
shrewd pecan
hearty dome
The German battleship Gneisenau in drydock after being hit by torpedo in 1940
warm finch
The German surface navy in WW2, in retrospect atleast, was a bit of a paper tiger
wintry moat
why did it tear out such a gigantic hole?
warm finch
The German surface navy in WW2, in retrospect atleast, was a bit of a paper tige...
I mean they lost one of their premiere cruisers to an outdated shore battery
eternal veldt
Torpedo strikes in general tend to look gnarly
subtle prawn
The torpedoes were much older than the cruiser it sunk
wintry moat
I've been seeing some of the hits the WW1 German Battlecruisers and they only buckled the armor
eternal veldt
wintry moat
Is that an Omaha?
eternal veldt
If you are referring to Jutland , that's more of an issue of British shells being absolutely horrendous
eternal veldt
No, that's New Orleans after Tassafaronga, eating s torpedo and basically destroying the entire forward section of Turret 2
wintry moat
I'm aware that Britian had overly Sensitive torps
wintry moat
No, that's New Orleans after Tassafaronga, eating s torpedo and basically destro...
Damn
just sheared her open
eternal veldt
As for Blücher, it's more operational idiocy than anything
wintry moat
She basically blundered into point blank no?
eternal veldt
The ship is packed to the brim with men and munitions
eternal veldt
Fires were originally containable, until the torpedoes hit near the already weakened structure from shelling, undoing all damage control efforts
And once the fires reach the 10.5cm magazines, it's over
warm finch
As for Blücher, it's more operational idiocy than anything
Iam well aware. Still kinda funny how many ships they lost for no real notable victories except kinda the hood
random trench
there master copiers
no the chinese are master copiers
eternal veldt
It took out the firing control systems near the turrets, causing it unable to return fire
wintry moat
Iam well aware. Still kinda funny how many ships they lost for no real notable v...
And Glorious
but I mean, a Carrier against BBs is a one sided affair
eternal veldt
Another one landed near the hangar and set the ship ablaze
random trench
And Glorious
the moment your aircraft carrier is in danger of being shelled by a BB you're an awful naval commander
eternal veldt
Iam well aware. Still kinda funny how many ships they lost for no real notable v...
Scheer and Jervis Bay begs to differ somewhat
random trench
like that isn't even a contest or something to be debated
shrewd pecan
no the *chinese* are master copiers
The Iranians
downright clone systems
the Chinese steal ideas and make their own
eternal veldt
And Operation Berlin is also a success, despite Ramillies cockblocking the two sisters
shrewd pecan
there are major differencies between the two
warm finch
And Glorious
Oh yes, can´t forget that fuck fest
eternal veldt
Graf Spee is also a pain in the ass until found and destroyed
random trench
Oh yes, can´t forget that fuck fest
british naval command at its finest
wintry moat
What exactly happened
random trench
i still don't know how we were a good navy
warm finch
i still don't know how we were a good navy
Numbers. Ya´ll had a navy as big as the two following naval powers by literal law
eternal veldt
Once again, Germany is just not winning against Britain in a direct naval clash
The German's hyporthetical enemy is centred around France, not Britain, who is quite literally the largest navy on Earth until superseded by the US
wintry moat
isn't that why Germany followed France in the “ super sized” DD concept
eternal veldt
If you are referring to the scout cruiser (spähkreuzer) thing, it's more that Germany lacks the destroyers to conduct oceanic raids independently
The Type 1934s sucked dick and could not venture out to the Atlantic
wintry moat
no the Big gunned DDs
eternal veldt
Hence the Type 1937J and Type 1938A, both of which also sucked dick and imbalanced
wintry moat
where they hated actually floating
eternal veldt
Which then led to the Spähkreuzer SP1-3 series
warm finch
Once again, Germany is just not winning against Britain in a direct naval clash
Let´s be real here the Germans did it to themselves
wintry moat
Especially with the Current Superpowers
eternal veldt
Granted, the German economic system at the time is basically just a giant bubble that will burst if there is no expansion
warm finch
Dont start a war if you cant fight it
The Germans thought they could hack it by wearing down their opponent
(they didn´t)
random trench
Numbers. Ya´ll had a navy as big as the two following naval powers by literal la...
idk, the more i hear about us losing when we really shouldn't have screams incompetant
correction
I'd argue that the Royal Navy’s performance in WW2 was the most complex and complete form of Naval Warfare undertaken. It may have missed out in Jutland or Trafalgar Grand Fleet actions, but the complexity of the Royal Navy taskings, and the success with which they completed these was simply breath taking.
Chasing down commerce raiders and battleship actions such as the sinking of Bismark. The DD landings, enabling the largest ever amphibious landings. Multiple evacuations, often with no planning such as at Dunkirk. Implementing and developing aircraft strike capabilities and destroying the Italian Fleet at Tarranto. Combating the U boat threat, securing supply lines to the UK, the Empire and Russia. Operating in every single ocean against multiple combatants.
Operating in open oceans, in the Mediterranean, in restricted waterways of the Norwegian Fjords or supporting in land delivery such as the Dieppe Raids. With the exception of a few miss steps, particularly in the Far East these were incredibly successful. There were of course mistakes, but strategically they did exactly what was needed. That's not even mentioning the detail such as the intelligence community, the landing of SOE agents or the likes of operation mincemeat. Honestly the scale and breadth of activities is hard to fathom.
found that on quora
warm finch
idk, the more i hear about us losing when we really shouldn't have screams incom...
The British navy is the epitome of losing the battle but winning the war, you always learned from a defeat, not just at sea but on land and air too
random trench
The British navy is the epitome of losing the battle but winning the war, you al...
after reading that thing im certain of that
manic latch
To this day I don’t believe the Iranians can produce anything of value
You underestimate them
random trench
You underestimate them
i only say this in comparison to american firepower
manic latch
As Tato said they made copies in a very fast speed after they capture a tech
random trench
we thought the same of saddam
and then flattened him
though i guess that was like almost a million troops
and also more aircraft and basically more of everything
manic latch
though i guess that was like almost a million troops
Which surrender only after 20k loss
I don't know how things would be if million was willing to fight to the last
random trench
that's true
i only say all this because there are some people i know which still doubt american firepower
often they say that all the US does is power project (which definitely is true), but the US has capabilities that most other adversaries could only dream of having
manic latch
i only say all this because there are some people i know which still doubt ameri...
Because Vietnam happened
When US was number 1 military in World
Which means even US can be defeated
random trench
That's true, but nowadays, the US is the premier power in doing their best to defeat guerilla groups
things like ISIS
the taliban were a completely different deal before anyone mentions it
manic latch
Well deserts are easy for planes, very open fields. Vietnam had forrests
manic latch
the taliban were a completely different deal before anyone mentions it
Taliban is overpowered, Soviets also lost to them
random trench
and from what we've seen so far with current conflicts, the US remains the apex predator, even though now its in a much weaker position than three decades ago
the US military industrial complex is also something that isn't to be tested, as the Germans found out
Often SS soldiers would say that american troops have no quality, they have overwhelming artillery support
manic latch
Well yeah US factories weren't getting bombed while whole Europe did
So they never really had production issues
random trench
Well yeah US factories weren't getting bombed while whole Europe did
that's the great thing about the US and its also what makes it dangerous
beyond cyberwarfare, the mainland is almost untouchable
two oceans on either side, cold terrain to the north, desert to the south
humble mulch
Which means even US can be defeated
There's an issue with this
manic latch
humble mulch
Guerrilla fighters are the number 1 pick for fucking up world powers
It's the under dog rule
If your goal is to simply keep existing, you can make it really fucking hard, to down right impossible to remove you entirely
wintry moat
plus
Having to root out every dude that has a hatred for you, from all the normal folk is kinda hard
wintry moat
especially when you have a uniform and standard gear that says “I'm American, come shoot me”
you stand put from the crowd, a lot of the time, Guerillas dont
random trench
How do get support of the population?
Air force: Hmmmm *Napalm*
The US never really wanted the support of the South Vietnamese population, it was just convenient to have
at least thats the impression i got
manic latch
Well their own was also important
random trench
as long as they could contain communism thats all they wanted
random trench
Well their own was also important
and yet they lied to their own people
humble mulch
Ehhh
manic latch
Kindred spirits with Soviet Union after all
humble mulch
I wouldn't say lie to much unless you're pointing to something specific
random trench
I wouldn't say lie to much unless you're pointing to something specific
“Are we winning”
humble mulch
Cause we did literally
Broadcast the war
And that made it pretty clear with the draft we weren't doing to hot
random trench
But in general, the trust of the US population in the government was fucked
And still is
At least before Vietnam there was some belief that the US was doing the right thing
manic latch
Similar reason Vietnam veterans weren't really welcome
humble mulch
I'd say trust towards the government has changed a lot for reasons other then vietnam
random trench
I'd say trust towards the government has changed a lot for reasons other then vi...
You know what I mean though
humble mulch
Yeah I get what you're saying
Also idk about you but I've always seen Nam vets treated decently cause of draft + not your fault the US had a dumb war (mind you this is post 9/11 era)
random trench
Also idk about you but I've always seen Nam vets treated decently cause of draft...
The hate towards them definitely has subsided
humble mulch
Haven't read to much on vets and their homecoming during that time period cause there's just to much cooking
random trench
Now it’s just “hey I feel really bad for you”
humble mulch
Yeah
Thats definitely the current sentiment
Towards those currently serving too at times
random trench
Nowadays a lot of current US vets coming back from Afghanistan and the like
Their mood is “as long as it’s the Russians dying idc”
I say this as my fiancées eldest brother just got back from Iraq
Like in March or sum
autumn sorrel
"838 unread messeage since 3AM" what did I miss?
manic latch
But in general, the trust of the US population in the government was fucked
War thunder even added Easter egg of Hanoi Hannah
humble mulch
Clearly they didn't have "fuck it we ball" in the 70s
wintry moat
War thunder even added Easter egg of Hanoi Hannah
Really?
random trench
Clearly
random trench
But idk todays US military is just fun
wintry moat
cool
random trench
But definitely not to be trifled with
cough cough 400 Wagner mercs and other auxiliaries vs 40 US marines with an obscene amount of air support
manic latch
Air support is overpowered everyone knows that
warm finch
*cough* *cough* 400 Wagner mercs and other auxiliaries vs 40 US marines with an ...
I like the part of that story where the marines ask if those are russian troops
autumn sorrel
Air support is overpowered everyone knows that
Only when Air parity that people start to appreciate Arty again
warm finch
Air support is overpowered everyone knows that
Being able to attack anything on the battlefield does that. Why you think artillery was so popular?
warm finch
It isn´t and it´s exactly why the last time someone fucked with the US conventionally, they lost
random trench
It isn´t and it´s exactly why the last time someone fucked with the US conventio...
It’s just funny
Like why do you think it’s a good idea to do that
autumn sorrel
How is this fair
That's the point! When you fight fair then something horrible has happen with your decision making
random trench
That's the point! When you fight fair then something horrible has happen with yo...
No no I’m making fun of the Russians
Like dawg you’re stupid
autumn sorrel
Like dawg you’re stupid
warm finch
That's the point! When you fight fair then something horrible has happen with yo...
Wasn´t there a quote about this?
random trench
<:MurmWat:839635014256951296>
I’m calling the Russians stupid
manic latch
I’m calling the Russians stupid
Syrians are also stupid for being bombed in Syria?
humble mulch
Mochi can you please not be so violently American
And stop talking about current event/politics just to stroke your ego
manic latch
And stop talking about current event/politics just to stroke your ego
"Stupid hospital"
-Mochi
warm finch
Syrians are also stupid for being bombed in Syria?
Yeah. Pretty much. Shouldn´t prevent elections that everyone can agree upon as free.
wintry moat
Senator Armstong vibes goin on
humble mulch
Mig-15 you as well
manic latch
Yeah. Pretty much. Shouldn´t prevent elections that everyone can agree upon as f...
If you are killing them for this reason then this ain't called democracy
random trench
Mochi can you please not be so violently American
I’m British😭
warm finch
Now I mean Bashars military, not civilians. Iam an asshole not a monster.
autumn sorrel
Senator Armstong vibes goin on
Unironically best char in the game
wintry moat
there's something funny about someone saying “ Mig-15, stop being so American”
humble mulch
manic latch
He is Czech with US admiration
warm finch
Mig-15 you as well
Yes yes sorry its late and I have problems seeing two things at once
manic latch
Tho I don't know why Czech admires US 
random trench
It isn’t late and im a lover of firepower
humble mulch
I’m British😭
Then please act like it
Post Harriers and bitch about Thacther
random trench
RAHHHHHHHHHHH🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🦅🦅🦅
autumn sorrel
Tho I don't know why Czech admires US <:monkaHMM:589313281227882511>
Czech are the gun nut of Europe
warm finch
He is Czech with US admiration
Black and white perception like your profile pic.
random trench
Czech are just mountain Texans
So do the Swiss
manic latch
Black and white perception like your profile pic.
YOU ARE definition of black and white tho
random trench
The Swiss are crazy enough to blow up their country in the name of national defence
humble mulch
Mig-15, stop calling the kettle black
You 2 are literally just on other sides
Why can't you be some East/west german bromance
warm finch
Those two hated each other.
autumn sorrel
They love guns
Being in Warsaw Pact
Design weapon that don't fit into logistical train
Still better than Soviet made stuff
wintry moat
Then please act like it
Post Harriers and bitch about Thacther
Lol
that made me chuckle
manic latch
Czech doesn't have many US vehicles unlike Poland either, why he likes US
warm finch
I like the US because they are the pioneers of modern military tactics.
random trench
I like the US because they are the pioneers of modern military tactics.
Yurd
autumn sorrel
I like the US because they are the pioneers of modern military tactics.
They are currently relearn how to fight conventional warfare
humble mulch
wintry moat
I mean, I'm an American and like British and German Warships
humble mulch
Dog we're really good at unconventional shit
Conventional shit not so much anymore
Mainly cause that just doesn't happen anymore
autumn sorrel
Dog we're really good at unconventional shit
SOF gonna be roll back into shock troop like the ol day
humble mulch
Yep lmao
Can't wait for the Delta Rangers to storm the beaches of Greenland in the next resource wars
warm finch
I like the US because they are the pioneers of modern military tactics.
Idk I just like shock and awe
manic latch
Also tried Five guys today, that thing isn't healthy
It's impressive some can eat it more than 2 times a week
warm finch
To be frank which fast food really is even?
manic latch
Five is next level
autumn sorrel
Tried Texan Chicken yesterday
humble mulch
Eh so fast food you can eat daily and it's not to hard on you (depending on where and what you eat)
5 guys isn't fast food tho
It's a restaurant
humble mulch
So that burger is like
Straight cholesterol
warm finch
It's a restaurant
Oh... that tells me enough
humble mulch
There's nothing fake in it
And their fries
They serve them in a paper bag
You get a fuck ton of them
Like
Not some hide a beer paper bag
A normal restaurant one
autumn sorrel
No Five guys in Vietnam
Sad
autumn sorrel
There is Texan Chicken chain nearby
Happy again
humble mulch
But yeah they are good. They are usually compared to IN N out tho
warm finch
All I know is that BBQ pork ribs are godlike with the right cook
humble mulch
Cause they are "restaurants" and not exactly fast food but still fast food
Bro pork ribs when they fall off the bone
Absolutely peak
warm finch
Bro pork ribs when they fall off the bone
Read my mind.
humble mulch
Anyways anyone know the history of BBQing?
Cause I'm real behind on it
I know it's why we have different chip flavors in the US compared to UK and Canada
warm finch
Anyways anyone know the history of BBQing?
There´s apparently a cut on the cow (unfortunately forgot it´s name) that butchers would keep for themselves because of how tender and flavourful it was
manic latch
You get a fuck ton of them
Almost Same calories as burger yeah
humble mulch
Almost Same calories as burger yeah
THATS THE TATSE OF FREEDOM BABY
Jfc that's absolutely horrible tho lmao
Damn shame they are to good tho
manic latch
Cheeseburger: 980 cal
Regular size fries: 950 cal
shrewd pecan
>No Five guys in Vietnam
>Sad
missing out
manic latch
Daily advised cal for human: 2000
humble mulch
Daily advised cal for human: 2000
shrewd pecan
Cheeseburger: 980 cal
Regular size fries: 950 cal
you see here this is why when you eat five guys
you workout like
humble mulch
Feeds 1 person
shrewd pecan
for a hour straight beforehand
warm finch
Noted noted noted...
warm finch
If I wanted mashed potatoes, I´d have made fucking mashed potatoes
eternal veldt
maiden citrus
manic latch
Svetlana Savitskaya doing a spacewalk on July 25, 1984.
subtle prawn
strong plank
They are currently relearn how to fight conventional warfare
That’s cope
desert agate
a good soldier never fights fair
subtle prawn
shrewd pecan
the last civil war veteran died in 1956
shrewd pecan
there's a few who claimed to be confederate veterans
but there actual birth dates are disputed
manic latch
@tough quail Lubricant use by trials
And well fuel consumption
T 64 use significantly more for well having 10 pistons
I expect same problem with future Abrams if she use Abrams X engine
While at same time current Abrams is likely thirsty as T-80
If not more for having more hp
tough quail
the sheer maintenance aids would be the bigger issue tbh, but I'm also almost certain that particular engine wouldn't be adopted
manic latch
So T-64's engine problems were
- Very hard to start at cold temperatures
- high use of lubricants
- need more air intake
- complexity
Reliability is debated alot since early engines always have such problems first
Chieftain also started horrible but it got better over time. But first impression still left sour taste for this type of engine
deep apex
YEEEESSSSSSSS
eternal veldt
Funny how it has ARA on bottom left 
deep apex
Considering how she never was operated by them it's even funnier
tough quail
every new german and us event where i dont get new mexico and scheer kills me a little more
tough quail
..well okay the most recent german event gets a pass for 556 content
eternal veldt
truly a gun layout of all times
deep apex
I'll take that
deep apex
truly a gun layout of all times
Considering they never got the opportunity to get the fucking six monitors setup by comparison, it's more understandable
maiden citrus
based is what it is
random trench
Was just explaining to some friends of mine the whole thing about D-Day and the Allies struggling to break out of the beachhead
manic latch
supple sandal
Then please act like it
Post Harriers and bitch about Thacther
Good day to you sir
"MARGARET THATCHER IS DEAD"
supple sandal
The US never really wanted the support of the South Vietnamese population, it wa...
Clarify: the president(south vietnam) that the US picked is kinda a dick
Suppression of press, information control, secret police, detention camps
That guy done it all, using US taxpayers money of course
supple sandal
zealous gull
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNoGwtoQd_U
We gave the US marines vegemite in exchange of patches when the the USS Green Bay visited two weeks ago, I wonder if they’ve come to regret that trade
eternal veldt
Vegemite is good
zealous gull
its just foreigners who eat a whole spoonful and then say it tastes too strong
supple sandal
manic latch
@tough quail
Siviet remote-controlled bomb SB-1m Bomb on the external sling of a Tu-2 bomber from 1944.
Cute 
frozen kestrel
Spicy lawn dart
subtle prawn
supple sandal
SR gun real
subtle prawn
tough quail
Baaaased
autumn sorrel
<@84008086733324288>
Siviet remote-controlled bomb SB-1m Bomb on the external ...
Anymore into to read on it? I try to search info for it yesterday when it pop up on my fb group but no luck.
desert agate
https://twitter.com/RyszardJonski/status/1684167641181868032
Oh good, they made the right decision
chilly osprey
25mm plating, in fact
grave ravine
Oh good, they made the right decision
Why was the Redback the better pick?
Don't know much about the program and vehicles
desert agate
lighter weight therefore more compatible with RANs landing craft/ships
autumn sorrel
desert agate
KF-41 was very fat which meant it couldnt fit on our current landing craft, and may have even struggled on LCM and LCH
autumn sorrel
lighter weight therefore more compatible with RANs landing craft/ships
And the Korean already fix their issues a few yrs ago after an accident during amphibious assault training
grave ravine
Makes sense
autumn sorrel
@manic latch
desert agate
redback itself will struggle somewhat on the landing craft we currently operate
the LCM-1E, or LLC will only be able to carry 1 comfortably
autumn sorrel
Downgrade to 30mm to save weight?
desert agate
the new LCM and LCH will be able to carry more afaik
it weights 25t, LLC has a max load of about 45ish
i believe redback itself will be even heavier than a stock k21
grave ravine
240 rounds isn't a ton either, and the 30mm is a good gun
desert agate
subtle prawn
wintry moat
subtle prawn
tough quail
ayyyyyyy we got rid of United States as part of a deal to use the names of two shit presidents
bitchin'
warm finch
Why it's a legend?
She was pretty much a premiere battlecruiser, she had the guns and (basically everywhere except the decks) fast battleship grade armour. Though the decks were eventually how she was sunk. Solidifying her status as a british battlecruiser with the explosion of her magazine
Also I wouldn´t say that legendary is a matter of capability. We consider Wittman mythical when he infact was just some guy the nazis used for propaganda.
wintry moat
Fair
deep apex
United States wasn't a nuke boat either tho
wintry moat
it's a legend if nothing else
wintry moat
I genuinely hate the hood
Why?
random trench
and i disagree about it's status as the pride of the royal navy
wintry moat
Genuinely curious
random trench
Battlecruisers
wintry moat
ah
wintry moat
that's not necessarily the fault of the Design tho
random trench
Battlecruisers themselves are just a crappy stopgap between heavy cruiser and battleship
they can't punch the same as a battleship and they don't have the armour to take any hits
the battle of Jutland proved that much
the concept was great on paper but horribly executed
not only was it horribly executed, but britain lost SEVEN battelcruisers during Jutland, and we had actually crossed the German T
tough quail
(the battle of jutland didnt prove that)
also what they did not lose 3
err
7
they lost three
and the reason they lost them wasn't because lmao armor bad
but because they were basically ignoring all flash safety while operating with horrendously sensitive, overly aged cordite
random trench
they lost *three*
i guess some people counted the heavy cruisers as battlecruisers
tough quail
its like blaming the armor when your ship is slathered in nitroglycerine
random trench
its like blaming the armor when your ship is slathered in nitroglycerine
I mean even still
the lack of armor thereof meant that any ship with big enough guns could penetrate the armour of a battlecruiser relatively easily
wintry moat
Didn't Drach bring up the fact that the cordite wouldn't have even needed to be sparked
tough quail
same with most dreadnoughts, really - naval guns were rapidly outpacing the armor schemes of the period
wintry moat
Just a solid enough hit could set the stuff off
random trench
same with most dreadnoughts, really - naval guns were rapidly outpacing the armo...
which is why i question why Fisher even thought them up
tough quail
while the superior maneuverability of the british BCs and their FBBs let them effectively run laps around the HSF
tough quail
in the context of ww1 fisher was absolutely spot on with his design priorities
random trench
and it aligned with british naval doctrine at the time
tough quail
and let down by bad magazine placement, safety protocol and awful powder
random trench
but by god why would you send battlecruisers into the denmark straits
wintry moat
The speed right?
random trench
they wanted to sink the bismarck before she escaped
wintry moat
that's why hood was sent
random trench
but they jumped the gun and got basically instantly killed when one shell slammed into the deck
wintry moat
she could still hold enough speed to keep up
wintry moat
but they jumped the gun and got basically instantly killed when one shell slamme...
Well, partially didn't Bis and Eugen show up off of where the brits expected them?
as Norfolk and Suffolk lost contact
tough quail
because she was the best armed and fastest british capital ship afloat at the time
random trench
I think the fastest is the emphasis
tough quail
both
otherwise they would have just sent renown
..not to mention hood has like, middle of the pack ww1 BB armor anyway
just didnt get her rebuild in time
wintry moat
And considering Wales was losing guns basically every salvo
tough quail
the funniest thing to me is that wales managed to get more shells down range over time than bisko iirc
le ebin high rate of fire 15" guns
wintry moat
wasn't Hood’s fire control kinda lackluster?
random trench
wasn't Hood’s fire control kinda lackluster?
It was bad
wintry moat
I knew it wasnt good
random trench
Compared to the Bismarck, Hood I would argue was pretty outmatched
wintry moat
there's also how many years of development between the two?
random trench
She was NOT in her favoured battle space and the Bismarck had good modern equipment to work with
random trench
there's also how many years of development between the two?
The Germans started to build Bismarck just after 1933 I think
The hood was a ww1 ship
1936 to be exact
wintry moat
So yeab
I hold the opinion Hood was a decent ship, for her time, and simply got outpaced
humble mulch
Had she gotten her planned retrofit she most likely would have survived
warm finch
Look at it! It's a wonder she was even finished knowing the British economy after WW1 and how they scrapped or converted half the grand fleet
subtle prawn
spiral cedar
She was pretty much a premiere battlecruiser, she had the guns and (basically ev...
At the range she was sunk (~16k yards), Hood's deck armor, thin as it was, was proof against Bismarck's flat-firing 38cm APC. She sank to a side hit; her deck armor wasn't relevant
spiral cedar
Battlecruisers themselves are just a crappy stopgap between heavy cruiser and ba...
They were never a "stopgap" and Fisher had intended to replace battleships entirely with battlecruisers. And chronologically your claim makes no sense—battlecruisers predated heavy cruisers by over a decade.
random trench
They were never a "stopgap" and Fisher had intended to replace battleships entir...
You get what I mean though
Or at least I hope
Battle cruisers were relaxant in WW1
But as a Ship to Ship vessel in World War Two, it was hopelessly outmatched by things such as aircraft
spiral cedar
Not to seem overly aggressive here, but you fundamentally misunderstand the situation
random trench
My point was supposed to be that if you want big guns just build a battleship
But also if you’re going to use a battlecruiser in WW2 at least don’t send it into a battle space where it is consistently within killing range of an actual battleship
spiral cedar
But also if you’re going to use a battlecruiser in WW2 at least don’t send it in...
This is moreso because Hood was old, not because she was a battlecruiser. At the range she sank an R-class or a Queen Elizabeth would have been no better off. The designation isn't the important part
WWI armor schemes and armor weren't up to the task of stopping WWII shells, battlecruiser or not
somber knoll
Eh
random trench
The British wanted to keep the Bismarck in Denmark
Not out to the Atlantic
The strategy behind it was flawed from the start, there was a better time and place to engage the Bismarck
somber knoll
Don’t send a battlecruiser at all
sees Germans sending an entire battlecruiser fleet and form a battle line then gets crushed
This is Jutland
Imperial German Navy has left the chat
random trench
The British couldn’t leverage their overwhelming force on her until she was out in essentially open sea anyways
On top of flawed strategy you have old equipment
spiral cedar
Couple things here.
Trying to prevent a breakout into the Atlantic was perfectly fine. A 2 on 1 engagement between capital ships heavily favors the former side, even if the 2 are of lower individual fighting capability. Most naval historians agree the most likely outcome of the Denmark Strait would have been a British victory. The British made tactical errors before and during the battle, but fighting in the first place wasn't one of them—they had a definite upper hand.
Catching a pair of enemy ships is very difficult in the open ocean. Single German raiders had evaded British patrols for months, such as Admiral Scheer. You need to make and establish contact as early as possible, and if you can narrow down the possible space to search, you ought to do so. The British correctly predicted the Germans would have to take one of two routes, and happened to think the southern route was more likely. That the Germans took the northern route did not fundamentally compromise the plan, it remained sound until Hood was lost.
manic latch
Lucky hit
Love how British handicapped themselves with treaty only they truly followed
Imagine if there was G3 instead PoW
spiral cedar
Well, imagine if Germany had 200 U-boats in the Atlantic in 1939 instead of, like, 20
manic latch
Hell G3 is a battlecruiser but she overpowers Bismarck in many ways
manic latch
Well, imagine if Germany had 200 U-boats in the Atlantic in 1939 instead of, lik...
More focus on ASW technology smh
spiral cedar
Yeah, though in fairness the Brits thought they had more or less "solved" ASW interwar
But the point remains that changing things changes interconnected stuff
somber knoll
A minor one issue also to add: while both British capital ships were in fighting capability, they had their own technical problems that plaguing them (not that it hindered them)
I recall of a source that the Admiralty wanted to send both first two KGVs instead of Hood, but, in addition to KGV being a Home Fleet flagship, there were the teething issue that the class had.
somber knoll
Well, imagine if Germany had 200 U-boats in the Atlantic in 1939 instead of, lik...
Raeder: I want mommies
Doenitz: I want lollis
Kriegsmarine civil war
spiral cedar
The Brits weighted their fighting force towards the expected likely route, the southern one
Which is where KGV was
Which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, put your best at the most likely combat area
somber knoll
then the Germans decided to go north.
spiral cedar
Correct. And, on average, the northern force should have been sufficient to carry the day
British tactical errors and, of course, some luck, prevented that
If you place too many capital ships on the northern route you risk the Germans taking the southern route
If you place too few you don't have enough ships to have a high probability of victory
2 was the correct number
somber knoll
and I don't think they want to send the Rs or the Lizzies either because, well, being WW1 grannies
autumn sorrel
And Mochi is hating on Hood bc of the 1 in a million shot somehow mean BC is a invalid concept and ship
manic latch
And Mochi is hating on Hood bc of the 1 in a million shot somehow mean BC is a i...
Bet he likes Lexingtons 
somber knoll
anyways, got to go to work. will continue in the office.
I also want to ask you something Jaba
spiral cedar
More importantly the slow BBs wouldn't be able to keep up with a fast raiding force
autumn sorrel
Bet he likes Lexingtons <a:psycho:1051803805739647006>
Mochi is American, right? They don't get to have BC 
spiral cedar
anyways, got to go to work. will continue in the office.
I also want to ask you ...
Go on
spiral cedar
as Norfolk and Suffolk lost contact
The two British CAs remained in contact and should have participated in the battle (as was Holland's original plan), but tactical errors by Holland caused them to be simply out of position to participate in time in the actual battle
wintry moat
I thought they briefly lost contact
After one of them pushed too close to the German ships
spiral cedar
That's correct, yes. Thought you meant they were out of contact at the time of the battle
random trench
Mochi is American, right? They don't get to have BC <:EssexWheeze:11139216202774...
im british
thorn trail
Speaking of Lexi's, the armor scheme was terrible right?
random trench
im british
And its my honest opinion that we should have been better. The quality of ship tactics was simply not there despite us having one of the best naval fleets on the planet at the time
random trench
And Mochi is hating on Hood bc of the 1 in a million shot somehow mean BC is a i...
i still think a battlecruiser is only a good concept on paper
L poor man's battleship
wintry moat
Weren't battle cruisers, true battle cruisers developed as making Battleships with really good speed hard during the age of coal fired boilers
desert agate
more of a fast battleship there
the Germans invested in battlecruisers with more capable armour
random trench
I just never liked the concept of battlecruisers
and im sure there were officers at the time who thought the same
desert agate
with the benefit of hindsight, criticisms can most certainly be made, but when used within their designed use-case, they performed exceptionally well
random trench
with the benefit of hindsight, criticisms can most certainly be made, but when u...
that's what i was about to say
desert agate
i would note the Battle of the Falkland Islands in WW1
random trench
yes
wintry moat
Falklands was a curb stomp
random trench
however im still of the mind that the bismarck and its plus one's should have been taken on just past denmark
wintry moat
Britain literally Hard countered Von Spee
random trench
Britain literally Hard countered Von Spee
yurd
wintry moat
couldn't imagine the fucking dread seeing two of the ships designed to kill your ships
desert agate
i would also note that 1st scouting group performed exceptionally well
wintry moat
The German BCs?
desert agate
sorry, just woke up
desert agate
The German BCs?
yes
random trench
couldn't imagine the fucking dread seeing two of the ships designed to kill your...
this and also the conditions for such an engagement were literally perfect for the more experienced british gunnery crews
wintry moat
Goeben was mined 5 different times
random trench
whereas im almost certain that the bismarck knew the british were coming
thorn trail
however im still of the mind that the bismarck and its plus one's should have be...
it's hard to find a battleship in the midst of the Atlantic
random trench
it's hard to find a battleship in the midst of the Atlantic
i mean around heligoland
thorn trail
Yeah but one mistep and you just lost a 15in armed and well armored BB in the Atlantic. One just has to see at the Scharn's raid beforehand to see how scary that is
random trench
you could easily cover that particular area with recon planes and make a prepared ambush in the area
correction
not heligoland
thats too far south
wintry moat
but wouldn't the Recon Aircraft send the Bis running in a different direction?
thorn trail
yes
autumn sorrel
you could easily cover that particular area with recon planes and make a prepare...
Aerial recon still not that great during ww2
thorn trail
They would have seen Bisko go to Norway
Remember they did have recon planes there and it took a while to spot Bisko in Norway
autumn sorrel
And flying aircraft over enemy head sure look sus
eternal veldt
Regarding German BCs, there is an argument to be made that they are more so "prototype" fast battleships
wintry moat
Regarding German BCs, there is an argument to be made that they are more so "pro...
I can see that
eternal veldt
And yes, Falklands is a good demonstration of how the British BCs should be used, with clear instructions given by Sturdee to the squadron
thorn trail
by the time the British knew Bismarck sailed, she was already in Norway refueling. No way for them to intercept her before then
desert agate
recon aircraft? in the north sea?
autumn sorrel
Regarding German BCs, there is an argument to be made that they are more so "pro...
Tbf, everything eventually lead to Fast BB
desert agate
good lord
random trench
And yes, Falklands is a good demonstration of how the British BCs should be used...
this
random trench
good lord
I recognise the futility of this dw
British Naval Command, even before the war was a gigantic mess
eternal veldt
That said, the BCs still had to fall back when German 20cm started landing uncomfortably close
random trench
Officers could still buy their commissions and we had a severe lack in Unity of command
random trench
And yes, Falklands is a good demonstration of how the British BCs should be used...
It's like one of the only times they were used for their intended purpose
spiral cedar
Speaking of Lexi's, the armor scheme was terrible right?
I mean, it was thin. The layout was fine, if that's what you mean
thorn trail
I mean, it was thin. The layout was fine, if that's what you mean
So basically layout was fine it was just paper thin even for a BC?
eternal veldt
Tbf, everything eventually lead to Fast BB
Its more that the Germans use a different philosophy and sacrificed firepower in the holy trinity, compared to Brits sacrificing armour
And, if we dig deeper into the rabbit hole, is Iowa a battlecruiser?
autumn sorrel
And, if we dig deeper into the rabbit hole, is Iowa a battlecruiser?
Is Alaska a BC?
humble mulch
Hey Jaba
When Bismarck sunk hood the german gunnery officer ordered to fire for effect right? To stop the British from closing the gap cause they couldn't get past their hull armor at closer ranges?
random trench
And, if we dig deeper into the rabbit hole, is Iowa a battlecruiser?
The argument could be made
spiral cedar
L poor man's battleship
Many battlecruisers were more expensive than contemporary battleships
eternal veldt
Is Alaska a BC?
Thats another rabbit hole, but personally, CB is right
spiral cedar
Engines tend to be pricy, especially in maintenance
eternal veldt
The lineage traces more to a heavy cruiser than a "dreadnought armoured cruiser"
autumn sorrel
Thats another rabbit hole, but personally, CB is right
I mean, with IJN spamming of CA and CL, a cruiser killer does make sense
spiral cedar
It's like one of the only times they were used for their intended purpose
Jutland was also within their intended use case, for what it's worth
random trench
Im going to dumb it down to this. Battlecruiser doctrine wasn't implemented correctly most of the time. The one time it was it did go well. But in terms of how often did it actually work? It wasn't very often. Hence why it's my view that battlecruisers were flawed from the start
Yes, it was a grand idea
It was actually really innovative
but it was poorly implemented and it had other shackles holding it down from its full potential
spiral cedar
Let me put it this way. Tell me what you think "battlecruiser doctrine" was
autumn sorrel
Im going to dumb it down to this. Battlecruiser doctrine wasn't implemented corr...
Depend, if Brit found themselves have to contain the high sea fleet and have to maintain the trade line all over the world from raider, BC is more useful
eternal veldt
Jutland's battlecruisers operated on an independent fast wing compared to the Grand fleet - I don't see the problem here
autumn sorrel
It just so happen that most of German raider got taken out real fast so BC was recall
random trench
Battlecruisers were better off simply policing the important tradeways
not being involved in grand fleet actions
eternal veldt
Its not literally sitting in a battle line with battleships (bar the QEs, basically Britain's trump card)
somber knoll
Let me put it this way. Tell me what *you* think "battlecruiser doctrine" was
I always believed that they were the "run and gun" type
autumn sorrel
Battlecruisers were better off simply policing the important tradeways
It was what Fischer envision them to do, it would be nice to have more gun in the battleline but BC is meant to outgun what it can't outrun and outrun what it can't outgun
somber knoll
because, well, you know, that was their specialty
random trench
but i will definitely say that the battlecruisers were 50% not in their element, and 50% misused
but the times they WERE in their element, they decided battles
spiral cedar
I'm going to point out now that nearly everyone who actually built battlecruisers intended for them to fight in fleet actions against the enemy battleline. The idea that they were exclusively "cruiser killers" meant to flee enemy battleships is a post-facto perception
random trench
I'm going to point out now that nearly everyone who actually *built* battlecruis...
i mean, hindsight wasn't a thing for them back then but, how realistic was that
spiral cedar
In 1906, when HMS Invincible was being built? Quite
random trench
I will also say that the British BC's during Jutland performed literally horribly because their commander was shit. While the German BC's performed admirably
eternal veldt
Thats too much of a simplification of the issues at Jutland.
spiral cedar
Battlecruisers came to being at a time when people were switching to Krupp Cemented type armors that allowed armor to be drastically thinner while still being able to shatter shells under all but the most ideal conditions
random trench
Thats too much of a simplification of the issues at Jutland.
its grossly oversimplified
spiral cedar
6" of belt armor seems ridiculous to us today for a capital ship, but it would still have shattered most 1906 shells
random trench
i will also add that technology was advancing fast, and by the time of the Denmark Straights, it definitely was possible to make a battleship with the same speed of a battlecruiser
spiral cedar
And since these ships were properly subdivided, yeah you will get a hole in the armor and some fragments inside, but your ship can still fight
The expectation is that it will take dozens of hits to bring your ship down
random trench
Hey what kind of conversation are we having he-
are battlecruisers good or not
spiral cedar
So within that context, taking some extra damage per hit compared to an 11" belt ship like HMS Dreadnought is probably worth the extra speed
autumn sorrel
Hey what kind of conversation are we having he-
BC, invalid or not?
random trench
my short answer is: in WW1, they're great, in WW2 pretty obsolete
spiral cedar
What changed was the proliferation of hard-capped delay-fuzed AP shells
somber knoll
Go on
do you have a sort of trajectory table comparison of 203 mm shells? As much as I loved the Mark 12 and 15, I want to see how the BL Mark VIII compares.
random trench
USS Wisconsin could outspeed British Battlecruisers if that makes any difference
spiral cedar
Because those could penetrate your armor without shattering and then detonate deep within, say at a magazine, and destroy the ship in a single hit
random trench
and she was originally designed in the late 30s
autumn sorrel
i will also add that technology was advancing fast, and by the time of the Denma...
Tech available doesn't mean you can replace all capital ship in your fleet with it, there is a reason why Elizabeth class still very much soldier on
desert agate
Hey Jaba
When Bismarck sunk hood the german gunnery officer ordered to fire for...
fire for effect is a very land based term
spiral cedar
Which means that you have to actually reject the enemy shell for your armor to be effective and keep your ship alive
random trench
Tech available doesn't mean you can replace all capital ship in your fleet with ...
I'm well aware
random trench
fire for effect is a very land based term
HIT IT TILL IT DIES
spiral cedar
Hey Jaba
When Bismarck sunk hood the german gunnery officer ordered to fire for...
Not the latter part, just because at that point the salvos were on target
eternal veldt
Again, I think it is worthy to draw on what exactly the "battlecruiser" is supposed to be
random trench
A trade police ship
eternal veldt
Take an ACR, slap dreadnought grade guns on it
Deploy it on the fast wing of a battle line as an ACR would
humble mulch
Coolio just wanted to check
spiral cedar
A trade police ship
This is just a cruiser
eternal veldt
That is why, the photo here, does not list Invincible as a "battlecruiser"
strong plank
and she was originally designed in the late 30s
hood was designed in the 1910s
eternal veldt
She is still classified as an "armoured cruiser" at that time
strong plank
me when the decade and a half newer battleship designed specifically for speed is faster
random trench
>hood was designed in the 1910s
my point was, at the time of Denmark straights, battleships were already getting to be faster than Battlecruisers, making them obsolete
eternal veldt
It wont be until order #351 in 1911 that these ships are finally classified as "BC"
random trench
britain was just dumb for not using airpower imho, there were aircraft carriers available and they were not used
spiral cedar
I mean, say someone designed a 35 knot BC in the 1930s. Would sort of remove that issue
strong plank
The RAF was in charge of British carrier aviation
thorn trail
Hood was just marginally slower than the Iowa's tho. It's not like there were other 33kt BBs lying around by the time of Denmark Strait
somber knoll
ahem
strong plank
and they prioritized land based aviation
random trench
The RAF was in charge of British carrier aviation
which was a dumb decision also
spiral cedar
do you have a sort of trajectory table comparison of 203 mm shells? As much as I...
In terms of penetration?
somber knoll
which was a dumb decision also
You see
strong plank
And, if we dig deeper into the rabbit hole, is Iowa a battlecruiser?
Is a BMP a tank?
random trench
failure to recognise which way the wind was blowing especially in naval combat was a strategic failure
eternal veldt
Is a BMP a tank?
M10 and M18 is a tank
somber knoll
In terms of penetration?
pen, muzzle velocity, and arc if you have
eternal veldt
Toyota Hilux with a .50BMG is also a tank
random trench
but i guess given what the british had at their disposal, and due to the fact that it was already tried and tested, i get why they didn't focus more on naval aviation
somber knoll
which was a dumb decision also
now Imagine if RAF and the Luftwaffe carried naval aviation battles.
but oh well
random trench
now Imagine if RAF and the Luftwaffe carried naval aviation battles.
that would be dope
Seafires on top
eternal veldt
Where did rhe Britain not utilize carrier aviation thing come from?
somber knoll
Goering didn't have any interest on the Graf Zeppelins
random trench
Where did rhe Britain not utilize carrier aviation thing come from?
no no
spiral cedar
britain was just dumb for not using airpower imho, there were aircraft carriers ...
What, at Denmark Strait? The Brits fully intended to use carriers, which is why Victorious was with KGV guarding the southern approach (where the weather was better for air ops anyway). The Germans just went the other route
strong plank
the British did very well at carrier aviation
eternal veldt
Victorious was deployed
thorn trail
:pepega:
eternal veldt
And scored a hit on Bismarck, in fact, just not to good effect
strong plank
Land-based aircraft were prioritized
spiral cedar
pen, muzzle velocity, and arc if you have
WWII cruiser gun muzzle energy
New-gun muzzle velocities
Gun | Shell | Energy (mega-slug•ft²/s²)
UK 8"/50 Mark VIII | SAPC | 62.6
US 8"/55 Mark 9,10,11,13 | AP Mark 19 | 63.4
US 8"/55 Mark 12,15 | AP Mark 21 | 65.1
JP 20cm/50 3rd Year Type 2 | AP Type 91 | 65.5
FR 203mm/50 Model 1924 | SAP M1927 | 65.7
IT 203mm/50 Model 1924 | AP | 61.4
IT 203mm/53 Model 1927 | AP | 74.9
GR 20cm/60 SK C/34 | APC L/4,4 | 77.0
SU 180 mm/57 Pattern 1932 | AP mod 1928 | 60.9
UK 6"/50 BL Mark XXIII | CPBC | 26.5
US 6"/53 Mark 12,14,15,18 | SPC Mark 27 | 29.4
US 6"/47 Mark 16 | AP Mark 35 | 25.3
JP 15 cm/50 41st Year Type | C Type 4 | 24.3
JP 15.5 cm/603rd Year Type | AP Type 91 | 35.0
FR 155 mm/50 Model 1920 | SAP M1924 | 31.5
FR 152 mm/55 Model 1930 | SAPC M1937 | 31.9
IT 152 mm/53 Model 1926,1929 | AP | 25.3
IT 152 mm/55 Model 1934,1936 | AP | 30.5
GR 15 cm/60 SK C/25 | APC L/3,7 | 30.9
GR 15 cm/55 SK C/28 | APC L/3,8 | 25.7
SU 152 mm/57 Pattern 1938 | AP | 36.5
which for a seapower such as britain, really still didn't make sense to me
somber knoll
```
WWII cruiser gun muzzle energy
New-gun muzzle velocities
Gun ...
Thanks 
thorn trail
```
WWII cruiser gun muzzle energy
New-gun muzzle velocities
Gun ...
what's mega slug?
random trench
it was only after the PoW got sunk that they actually were like, "Hey i think aircraft carriers are cool"
spiral cedar
Mega = million
Slug = imperial unit of mass
strong plank
bruh
thorn trail
This is the most braindead take I've seen rn.
eternal veldt
Prince of Wales is more a case of underestimating the Japanese more than anything
spiral cedar
So the Brits did Taranto just for shits and giggles I guess
eternal veldt
And Prince of Wales was taken out by land-based aiecraft regardless
chilly flower
Land-based aircraft were prioritized
It doesn't help that uh
many of the dedicated naval designs were frankly garbage
Even later stuff like the Barracuda is just shite compared to receiving Avengers from the US
strong plank
Alexa when was the illustrious class ordered
eternal veldt
And yes, I was about to say Taranto, which inspired the Japanese to do Pearl Harbor no less
random trench
So the Brits did Taranto just for shits and giggles I guess
yurd
spiral cedar
Less inspiration, more confirmation tbf
eternal veldt
Fair enough
spiral cedar
The Japanese already had plans and concepts for such a harbor air raid, Taranto was just proof that it would work and info on what precautions needed to be taken (e.g. can't let torpedoes dive too deep)
eternal veldt
I dont remember if the wooden fin thing came from there or elsewhere
strong plank
It’s hard to say when carrier aviation supplanted battleships
eternal veldt
Ah, right.
random trench
I dont remember if the wooden fin thing came from there or elsewhere
it came from taranto
strong plank
But most ww2 enthusiasts don’t know about Taranto
thorn trail
then again most people forgot the Med naval war existed in the first place
random trench
also just as a sidenote, i know im portraying the UK navy as just plain up bad, but in actuality, the Royal Navy did its job perfectly
eternal veldt
Eh, Regal. Im pretty sure there is a big brained take in Taranto two days prior.
somber knoll
```
WWII cruiser gun muzzle energy
New-gun muzzle velocities
Gun ...
Interesting. Most CAs initially went the conservative 60s... then there was Hipper's that just went ballistic (not saying the Zara's Model 1927 didn't either)
random trench
with only a few setbacks here and there, especially in the far east
strong plank
and POW’s sinking occurring within days of Pearl Harbor provides a very convenient moment to point at
thorn trail
Everyone goes "lol Italian Navy" every time the Med is talked about
eternal veldt
"Taranto crippled the Italian navy" something to that effect
"sank three battleships"
thorn trail
"Taranto crippled the Italian navy" something to that effect
uh it's the same guy who said it btw
Mochi was the same guy who said it
random trench
"sank three battleships"
that was me fun fact
but i did some reading
ive been reading the last few days just to brush up
random trench
my new take on the italian navy is, not bad, definitely a fleet in being navy
wintry moat
like in terms of the Designs themselves?
eternal veldt
If there is a gigachad in the Regia Marina
random trench
wasnt the Italian Navy, design wise fairly decent
it was prety damn modern
eternal veldt
Honour goes to Espero
spiral cedar
But yeah the RN highly valued carrier aviation, they were just hobbled by RAF interference and poor plane compromises. They were the most successful naval aviation force until late 1941 after all, and mistakes they made were picked up by the US and Japan. They just don't use carriers often in terrible weather conditions for obvious reasons
random trench
But yeah the RN highly valued carrier aviation, they were just hobbled by RAF in...
I literally just read the interwar service rivalry lol
eternal veldt
And to an extent the armoured carrier concept is still argued as valuable as late as 1945 against the onslaught if kamikazes
spiral cedar
Interesting. Most CAs initially went the conservative 60s... then there was Hipp...
The main reason they're such effective belt punchers, yeah
random trench
And to an extent the armoured carrier concept is still argued as valuable as lat...
i will also die on that hill
eternal veldt
...yes and no
wintry moat
It's a tradeoff
eternal veldt
Kamikazes don't instantly take them out of action
random trench
they are fun and whimsical
eternal veldt
But seriously harms the ship's structure in the long run
random trench
FUN and WHIMSICAL
eternal veldt
Illustrious is badly damaged enough in her lifetime to be written off post-war
humble mulch
How armored is to armored tho?
random trench
How armored is to armored tho?
armoured
humble mulch
Didn't midway have an armored deck of sorts?
strong plank
Yeah
strong plank
Didn't midway have an armored deck of sorts?
3 and a half inches iirc
somber knoll
The main reason they're such effective belt punchers, yeah
I find it rather amusing for the Hippers though, as they were also meant to be raiders (and raiders didn't really need that much pen as much as barrel life no?).
With that said, they were all indeed good belt punchers.
eternal veldt
The "armoured" carrier here more refers to where the strength deck is
spiral cedar
It's fairly reasonable to say armored flight decks (or in the case of the Illustrious class, armored hangar boxes) were a good fit for the kamikaze threat. The offset is that the smaller airgroup meant a greater risk of the CAP being overwhelmed in the first place
eternal veldt
The Brits put it on the flight deck, the US below at the hangar deck
humble mulch
Ah
spiral cedar
I find it rather amusing for the Hippers though, as they were also meant to be r...
The Hippers were too short-legged to be effective raiders. They were meant to be fleet units, which is why they had steam turbines to emphasize speed over endurance. AKA they want to fight other cruisers
humble mulch
So it's an internal thing compared to topical one for the structural issues
eternal veldt
The common argument against the British method and surrounding the hangar like an armoured box is that flight capacity is low
somber knoll
The Hippers were too short-legged to be effective raiders. They were meant to be...
kek forgot that they didn't have Diesels 
eternal veldt
And the hangar clearance is just godawful, like, look at this
spiral cedar
Illustrious is badly damaged enough in her lifetime to be written off post-war
Think that's more due to the German bombs that gutted her in the Med than to the kamikazes tbf
spiral cedar
kek forgot that they didn't have Diesels <:SpeeAYAYA:911042188450861126>
You can certainly question why the D-lands need 28cm guns for raiding 
somber knoll
eternal veldt
They liked diesels enough to try with Ps and the Spähkreuzers at least
eternal veldt
Think that's more due to the German bombs that gutted her in the Med than to the...
Hence why I more mentioned lifetime
She took a bit more pounding in the Pacific, not to the Fliegerkorps X level, sure
But tbf, that applies to really any ship
spiral cedar
Yeah, I just think the fate would have been the same regardless of her Pacific damage
wintry moat
Illustrious is badly damaged enough in her lifetime to be written off post-war
But Illustrious was nailed repeatedly by German bombs, and had a serious fire, and served well until she had a kamikaze open old wounds
eternal veldt
Just pointing it out that although the ship seemed to remain in active service compared to the US carriers, the ship suffered extensive structural beatings
Since the oft heard statement is that
"US carrier hit, 3 months in drydock, British carrier hit, get the brooms"
somber knoll
RN moment
golden spindle
Honestly one of the most abused ships I can think of is her
HMS pepperpot gets that reward I think lol
somber knoll
Just pointing it out that although the ship seemed to remain in active service c...
but eh, at least Lusty shared that kind of damage camaraderie with Saratoga
eternal veldt
Eh, Penelope's are splinter damage
Nevada got beached, then ate two nukes, then ate battleship fire
eternal veldt
Sara Maru would have been interesting, ngl
sincer her CV(N) configuration in 1945 already meant parts of the ship were converted into classrooms
Go on, turn her into a lecture centre
spiral cedar
My question is, had Enterprise dodged that 1945 Kamikaze, would she have had the surrender instrument signed aboard her instead of Missouri
thorn trail
If the surrender instrument was signed on Enty isntead of Missouri, would Enty have been preserved
spiral cedar
If the surrender instrument was signed on Enty isntead of Missouri, would Enty h...
Likely
somber knoll
My question is, had Enterprise dodged that 1945 Kamikaze, would she have had the...
idk ask Truman for that.
kek
I mean
spiral cedar
I think the signing ship was chosen by the US admiral present
Rather than by the President
somber knoll
Dido marked the surrender of the Kriegsmarine and she got scrapped
eternal veldt
Surrender candidates are more and many, ngl
New Jersey is also a frontrunner to be the host
somber knoll
iirc
eternal veldt
Just a slight issue that she just finished her refit and not on-site compared to Missouri
somber knoll
FDR wanted to sign the surrender aboard the Iowa but man bit the dust before he could do so
strong plank
Battleships were still a more powerful image than the carrier
eternal veldt
and honestly? If you really want to rub the salt in, it's not Enterprise you'd pick
It's West Virginia
"I lived bitch"
somber knoll
MOUNTAIN MAMA
eternal veldt
Being at the surrender ceremony itself is good enough, I suppose
chilly osprey
Nah, if you want to rub it in.
Send a 4-stacker
eternal veldt
kinda too small for that, I'd think
chilly osprey
Repaint it with Edsall's hull number
chilly osprey
kinda too small for that, I'd think
I mean, yes, serious hat on - it would be
thorn trail
If Indy survived should have signed it on her.
"Bitch i carried the bomb dropped on you guys. Now sign here"
eternal veldt
Indianapolis' claim to fame to be honest is not that loud compared to the other ships
until her sinking, of course
spiral cedar
Moreso in that Enty was Halsey's ship back at Pearl and while Missouri was chosen because she was Halsey's flagship at the time of the surrender, had he had the option to pick Enty instead I feel like he might have
strong plank
It’s uh
strong plank
Also a lot more impactful to roll up in one of the US’ latest and greatest BBs
eternal veldt
Who gave Halsey a dressing down for planting the flag far too early when he arrived
strong plank
instead of choosing a cruiser to make a point that only a handful of surviving officers would have understood
somber knoll
eternal veldt
so...would Nimitz also take Enterprise is another factor
spiral cedar
Nimitz as a sub man, chooses a submarine 
eternal veldt
oh god
spiral cedar
Cram the entire surrender ceremony aboard a Gato
somber knoll
boi oh boi
spiral cedar
USS Barb can paint Japan as a kill mark
eternal veldt
Could do Nautilus as well, just to remind the Japanese of the slight tomfoolery they did at Midway
Ah wait, she was decommissioned already by that time, shame
thorn trail
~~SS-282 is chosen as the site of surrender~~
LMFAO
I was wondering "what's 282"
Why
eternal veldt
It'd be hilarious even if it was another Gato
"the surrender ceremony was signed on a ship named after a fish."
spiral cedar
Revenge of the sushi
eternal veldt
see another one, SS-258
if I recall, many fish were named because the US needed the names for the subs? or is that just a myth
spiral cedar
The USN sent people to dig up alternative local names for various fish
I don't think they outright discovered new species
Just new names for existing ones
eternal veldt
Right, was thinking more that only a scientific name existed, and then they just took the local name
somber knoll
The USN sent people to dig up alternative local names for various fish
bro,
Now I remember the fish names in an anime episode (think it was Grand Blue).
The Okinawans named their fish really weird.
eternal veldt
oh right, USS Catfish is also a thing back then
spiral cedar
In 1958, the U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings published a humorous account by Captain William F. Calkins, USNR, of his experience with naming ships in his position as Special Assistant to the Chief of Naval Personnel during World War II. It fell to the Chief to provide naming recommendations from which the Secretary could choose. During this time, the naming of submarines still followed the convention of "fish and denizens of the deep," so Captain Calkins often consulted the United States National Museum (now the National Museum of Natural History) for assistance.
Captain Calkins described the many difficulties involved in choosing a name for any vessel. The names could not be similar to another ship's name currently in the fleet and it had to be appropriate, i.e. not something that would easily be made fun of. In addition: "Spelling and pronunciation both had to be reasonably simple. The average enlisted man (and his girl friend) must be able to say the name comfortably. If his best girl couldn't spell it, he might not get her letters."
This proved a problem with fish names since ichthyologists like to use Latin names. The most common and recognizable names were used up fast leaving him to come up with some creative workarounds, such as names in different languages for the same fish type. The fleet was growing so fast that sometimes a popular fish name was created and then assigned to an already existing scientific name in order to have something more pronounceable.
humble mulch
"the surrender ceremony was signed on a ship named after a fish."
See I feel this could played so well
eternal veldt
i.e. not something that would easily be made fun of.
This aged very well
spiral cedar
Smithsonian Institution Archives Accession 12-530 is a small collection of correspondence between staff in the Division of Fishes and members of the U.S. Navy. Smithsonian curators would provide the requesting commander with information and pictures of the fish for which his ship was named. The letter and photograph were often hung onboard, and the sailors took pride in knowing about the ship's namesake.
humble mulch
Didn't the Emperor research the ocean and stuff?
somber knoll
Didn't the Emperor research the ocean and stuff?
Showa was the marine biologist yeah
humble mulch
Yeee I feel that would be like some good will type stuff
thorn trail
Was there any instance of like crew of US Navy ships in ww2 go fishing in lull in the fighting
eternal veldt
I don't think goodwill is on top of the US minds at that time
eternal veldt
"So you like fish? Well we brought a school"
not just the school
we brought their mothers too
somber knoll
Was there any instance of like crew of US Navy ships in ww2 go fishing in lull i...
full battlestations, don't think so.
cruising, quite possibly
eternal veldt
The whole family's here
humble mulch
somber knoll
remember
strong plank
I love that Archerfish’s flag actually marks the Shinano as a kill
thorn trail
full battlestations, don't think so.
cruising, quite possibly
Since I wonder if any of say the sub's crew went fishing while waiting for something not in combat
strong plank
I assume it was added after the war
somber knoll
they put a swimming pool aboard NJ
humble mulch
The Emperor and Nimitz fishing off a Gato
eternal veldt
I don't think you want to be on a sub's deck while it is cruising
strong plank
somber knoll
Since I wonder if any of say the sub's crew went fishing while waiting for somet...
iirc the sailors fished aboard one of the Essexes
strong plank
wait no
eternal veldt
You could do it near the stern
strong plank
that could have been said better
humble mulch
Regal lmao
somber knoll
bro
eternal veldt
there are also multiple catwalks
humble mulch
Nimitz fishing from the bridge with a long ass fishing pole
somber knoll
I was about to chalk up that as a dick joke
eternal veldt
but really, like I mentioned before, the true fishing boat is none other than Jun'yo
Crew is literally unable to do anything other than picking up dead fish from HVAR strikes
somber knoll
Speaking of NJ
I posted an article in #al-general of how they organized an adult-themed showing back in the 60s to boost morale.
the Playboy graffiti on one of her guns is
thorn trail
what is that sport again where someone is on a board being pulled by a boat? I wonder if any large military vessel was ever used for it
strong plank
Wakeboarding