Super Hornet is aging, but its far from the worst thing flying around
#history
grave ravine
strong plank
Trying to remember everything the navy’s said about their program
grave ravine
Is the RAAF getting JSM?
strong plank
I know the Air Force likes to make headlines with all the future stuff it’s like to incorporate into their jet
desert agate
Fact is that money into 4th gen fighters, especially for the RAAF, a force which is more or less on the front lines of an Indo Pacific conflict, is a wasted investment
grave ravine
yeah
desert agate
Is the RAAF getting JSM?
RAAF is already using LRASM, RAN is buying NSM which and RAAF is in a solid position to also buy JSM
Especially given how RAN and RAAF were heavily involved in N/JSM
strong plank
While the navy’s is probably going to try for longer operational range
desert agate
Our recent doctrinal shift has emphasised operational range considerably
Defence of Australia was an obsolete doctrine and we were right to abandon it for National Defence Doctrine
grave ravine
LRASM can't be mounted internally in F-35, though they are doing an external mount for it
desert agate
LRASM is the superior missile regardless
grave ravine
yeah
desert agate
RAAF is in a really difficult position where it's forced to play catch up with global advances in technology without the domestic capability to make those advances on its own
As it stands RAAF is at its weakest point in decades in terms of maritime strike capability
And until there's an upgrade path for the F-35s, that's going to remain the case
cinder escarp
LRASM has range, JSM has lower signature and is a smaller target leading to better survivability. You can also carry a lot more of them. (LRASM also has a lot of guidance and computer tricks the original NSM doesn't have but JSM will have)
thorn trail
out of all the gun calibers, why was 11-12in used as the starting point for early dreadnoughts
remote monolith
limitations in metallurgical capabilities?
desert agate
a number of factors from shell manufacturing, weight and armour capabilities all played their part
remote monolith
grave ravine
out of all the gun calibers, why was 11-12in used as the starting point for earl...
They were the guns used by the latest pre dreadnoughts, because they were the newest and greatest guns
remote monolith
The entombed individuals represent the small ceratopsian dinosaur Psittacosaurus lujiatunensis entangled with the even smaller gobiconodontid mammal Repenomamus robustus
The new fossil found in the Lujiatun Member of the Yixian Formation consists of a subadult Repenomamus robustus weighing about 3.5 kg attacking a subadult Psittacosaurus lujiatunensis weighing about 10.6 kg (about three times the size of the mammal), the Psittacosaurus fossil it shows no teeth marks on the bones which, together with the mammal's evident grasping and biting position, indicate that the mammal was attacking the dinosaur when the two were suddenly buried by a flow of volcanic debris.
this is the third discovered example of a Ceratopsian and its predator dying together because of an external factor
grave ravine
Dreadnaught uses the same guns as the Lord Nelson's, South Carolina the same as the Mississippis and Connecticuts etc
grave ravine
this is the third discovered example of a Ceratopsian and its predator dying tog...
Cool
remote monolith
aye, it is
the live reconstruction is pretty wild
also, new Maastrichtian dinosaur
https://www.sci.news/paleontology/calvarius-rapidus-12101.html
maiden citrus
maximum pog
autumn sorrel
I forget to ask, what is this year verdict on Spinosaurus?
remote monolith
I forget to ask, what is this year verdict on Spinosaurus?
nothing new yet, still the at least semi-aquatic piscivore with short legs
autumn sorrel
My fav leo2 variant
grave ravine
It's so fat
autumn sorrel
It's so fat
That's why it look so cute
subtle prawn
desert agate
HMAS Canberra leading USS Canberra into Sydney for the latters commissioning this weekend
shrewd pecan
manic latch
@tough quail Ivan Gren class (series 2?, variant 2?, cousin?) Is under construction
They will look much more different compared to their 2 older sisters. They are bigger, heavier, has larger helicopter deck, much different Superstructure etc
tough quail
render looks better tbh so good change
manic latch
Lewd
chilly osprey
grave ravine
https://vxtwitter.com/CBI_PTO_History/status/1681706188113858561?t=LKm3dTk6xtLBy...
do you have a thread unroll of it?
chilly osprey
Nope
shrewd pecan
warm finch
Western aircraft with eastern markings will never not be cool
rapid junco
Somewhat related
I reminded of the Swiss BF109s
hearty dome
Just a 40mm quad aa nothing special
maiden citrus
very pretty
manic latch
The Soviet leadership considered the aircraft Tu-95K-22 and Tu-22M3 with the X-22 rocket the most effective tool to combat aircraft carriers. Therefore, Soviet heavy aircraft systematically approached the U.S. aircraft carriers and recorded the action of radio electronic interference Americans. According to navigators, the effectiveness of these tools was tremendous: the target markings on the screens literally drowned in a cloud of interference, it became impossible to aim. Therefore, a version of the attack was developed, according to which the first to launch X-22 missiles with nuclear warheads are not on specific targets, and the area where the American aircraft carrier connection was to be. It was believed that after that the action of electronic countermeasures will significantly reduce, and the second wave of X-22 missiles will find surviving targets
subtle prawn
manic latch
maiden citrus
manic latch
"Marine Corps officials have separately highlighted how an existing gap in amphibious ship capacity, exacerbated by the loss of the Wasp class amphibious assault ship USS Bonhomme Richard to a devastating fire in 2020, has already had operational impacts just this year. No amphibious assault ships were available to help with disaster response after a major earthquake in Turkey in February or to assist with evacuation efforts in Sudan in April"
Ooh that's why
Since they lost Richard
And rest was not available since maintenance?
autumn sorrel
The Soviet leadership considered the aircraft Tu-95K-22 and Tu-22M3 with the X-2...
Be Soviet
US CSG ECM is so superior that you can only see a blur on radar
Solution: fire 2 nuclear missile at the target general direction
Profit????
manic latch
>Be Soviet
>US CSG ECM is so superior that you can only see a blur on radar
>Sol...
Well theory is nuclear will cause EMP effect
So even if nukes doesn't damage the ships, their systems will be vulnerable
autumn sorrel
Yeah, it is a brute force but simple solution
Still work in modern era you reckon?
strong plank
https://twitter.com/RyszardJonski/status/1681384684091998221
Good god did they design the thing with AI too
eternal veldt
Suzuya, nearing completion
junior trench
>Be Soviet
>US CSG ECM is so superior that you can only see a blur on radar
>Sol...
*fire two nuclear missiles at a decoy signature, assuming your planes don't die to the SAM and CAP trap
Something something Soviet Kamikazes
manic latch
*fire two nuclear missiles at a decoy signature, assuming your planes don't die ...
Hold up
Which American SAM outrange Kh-22
junior trench
not knowing about SAM traps
manic latch
Honestly RI, you are literally the only person that I see use that term more than 2
So I don't know if it's a very very hidden term that's being used under a different name
So how do you do a SAM trap?
You mean like
Emcon?
desert agate
Decoys and the like
manic latch
Thanks for using a simplified and common term Spon 
autumn sorrel
Seem so
cinder escarp
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2023/july/lightning-carrier-isnt-eith...
so you're telling me that a amphib with a bunch of short range, limited payload stovl jets aren't a major asset like a proper carrier is? Imagine my shock.
autumn sorrel
155 APFSDS
Top attack APFSDS
shrewd pecan
ornate wind
What is the diameter of the Iowa’s turret well?
desert agate
11.9m or 39ft 4in
thorn trail
anyone know what cruiser is shown in this vid?
desert agate
looks like a Baltimore to me
thorn trail
aight thanks
autumn sorrel
Yeah, it is Balti
chilly osprey
So how do you do a SAM trap?
A SAM trap is when you have the carrier go under EMCON, or mimick the electronic emissions of a much lower value target.
Meanwhile, a group of AAW ships will go to another location - usually the one they believe the enemy would expect the carrier to be - and emit as if they were in fact the carrier and its escort group. Often aircraft taking off from the carrier will route themselves to make it appear as if they are taking off from this escort group.
The goal is to lure the enemy into launching their attack against a group of escort ships brimming with SAMs and absent any high value target - ideally destroying the bomber force in the process, but even if that fails then a full strength bomber sortie will have failed and it will be a good long while before the enemy could launch another one. In which time the carrier can go about doing its intended mission.
There are variations on this, too, such as you still letting the enemy know where the carrier is, but placing escort AAW ships under strict EMCON in the expected flight path of the enemy bomber force - which then engage when the enemy flies in range, possibly entirely remotely depending on what other sensor assets are in the area (ex, an E-2C/D, an F-35, etc).
shrewd pecan
autumn sorrel
Wait, what?
shrewd pecan
Something wrong?
autumn sorrel
Something fishy, I can't put my finger on it
manic latch
A SAM trap is when you have the carrier go under EMCON, or mimick the electronic...
Oooh
shrewd pecan
Something fishy, I can't put my finger on it
never seen a AML-14.5 or a BTR-90 before?
subtle prawn
autumn sorrel
never seen a AML-14.5 or a BTR-90 before?
That isn't BTR-90 
autumn sorrel
I can't see the flag clearly but middle east?
warm finch
I can't see the flag clearly but middle east?
The quality is just terrible but I think its the croatian flag
shrewd pecan
????????????
grave ravine
The quality is just terrible but I think its the croatian flag
what no, its clearly got arab liberation colors
spring briar
The thing with this is
As long as there is no way to compare, the fact that this might be true is irrelevant
shrewd pecan
I had it towards the top of my photo album
subtle prawn
manic latch
neat rock
Kremlin lover 🔥
maiden citrus
The thing with this is
As long as there is no way to compare, the fact that this...
by studying the physical structure of the eye closely it can be (and how the light is focused, what bands are accepted where, cone design, etc), so while it's a fun thought experiment, it doesn't really happen, you'd have to have extreme variation in your eyes to see a drastically different color than someone else on the same object
shrewd pecan
manic latch
Kremlin lover 🔥
You sound familiar
snow mist
with the equipment the game currently have which gun mount would be suitable for z23 that fit historicaly ?
vocal vine
strong plank
deterring the Iranians
manic latch
Interesting Harpoon case in history
issuing four separate warnings to the Iranian missile boat Joshan to cease approaching U.S. warships, the USS Wainwright (CG-28) engaged the vessel. The Iranian Joshan launched its own Harpoon missile at the Wainwright, but was thwarted by the Wainwright’s chaff and electronic countermeasures. In response, the Wainwright fired six standard missiles (SM-1’s) and one Harpoon missile. The Joshan was significantly damaged by the attack, and was fully sunk by the Wainwright’s close range guns.
remote monolith
babe new dinosaurs just dropped
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02724634.2023.2199810
Igai Semkhu of Egypt, a Titanosaur
and Furcatoceratops of the Judith River formation https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S019566712300188X?via%3Dihub
somber knoll
with the equipment the game currently have which gun mount would be suitable fo...
Nimi was designed and armed with single 150 Tbtsk/C 36 guns in four turrets.
maiden citrus
new titanosaurs, my fave
snow mist
Nimi was designed and armed with single 150 Tbtsk/C 36 guns in four turrets.
theres also the retrofit version
but its the 150 lc/38 twin gun mount which isnt exist in the game yet
i wonder will the game have more
gear i mean
somber knoll
theres also the retrofit version
we already have.
the LC/38 is just the twin mount designation for it, as the gun was mostly the same
snow mist
oh so its still the twin tbtsk/c 36 ?
somber knoll
yep
snow mist
ok thanks
subtle prawn
old lily
subtle prawn
manic latch
"new gen tank developed by Hyundai Rotem, initially marked with the K3 code.
Render from 2022.
Crew of 2, ammunition only in the automatic loader, but additional 4 ATGMs, hard kill APS, RCWS, CRT.
Chassis on 6 pairs of load-bearing wheels"
shrewd pecan
reposting these since they go hard
tough quail
based
rapid junco
Last week i went to The city of Montes Claros
I attended the 33th meeting of Veterans of the FEB
And i had the honor of shaking hands with 3 of them who came to the event
Those being
Elmo Diniz on the left
Severino Souza on the center
And João Pereira on the right
Elmo is already 102
And the other two are in their 99
There was also a parade of historical vehicles
Which included
A M8 Greyhound
A Chevrolet G506
Various jeeps
And a M3 Half track
solid mango
rapid junco
warm finch
Interesting Harpoon case in history
issuing four separate warnings to the Irani...
,,You see, the more you´re gonna fuck around, the more you´re gonna find out"
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
shrewd pecan
snow mist
does the bismark use a FuMo 25 radar or is that only used by prinz eugen ?
grave ravine
does the bismark use a FuMo 25 radar or is that only used by prinz eugen ?
Bismarck used a FuMo 23 radar only, while Prinz Eugen would fit a variety of radars, including a FuMo 25 as a secondary near the end of the war
snow mist
welp then my bismark will keep using repair part for the auxilaury slot
subtle prawn
shrewd pecan
its not being fully replaced
shrewd pecan
considering
you do not need a JTLV for every mission set
and the JTLV is not well suited for airborne units
the humvee certainly still has its role
manic latch
manic latch
Iraqi soldier boiling water on the heat stream of the abrams gas turbine engine.
wintry moat
So, how do y'all think the Mackensen/ Ersatz Yorck would’ve worked
In terms of their combat effectiveness against other BC's of the time
frozen kestrel
You know, I see the announcement for the event being hosted at the USS Hornet museum, and I'm pissed because I can't go there.
And then I think about the state I live in and get more pissed because we have basically no naval museums.
frozen kestrel
Let me guess. South Carolina?
frozen kestrel
I went there once. Fell out of a tree
I'm stuck down south of you in Jurassic Park, a.k.a. Florida
deep apex
So, how do y'all think the Mackensen/ Ersatz Yorck would’ve worked
I read Ersatz York and thought of the Spring Offensive Operation
deep apex
Little test for y'all: When was Operation Ersatz-Yorck launched and who was it targeted at?
frozen kestrel
If I remember correctly, ersatz is German for replacement, right?
strong plank
False iirc
frozen kestrel
Damn. I'm still learning so I've got some things to memorize
deep apex
But you don't know the answer?
frozen kestrel
Definitely a ship though.
I'm thinking battlecruiser. And looking at the top of my screen, I can see 'would've worked' so I take it that it was a piece of shit.
deep apex
I read Ersatz York and thought of the Spring Offensive Operation
I mean to this
frozen kestrel
I honestly got no clue
desert agate
Mackensens weren't bad ships as designed
Poorly protected but that's standard for the time, only using 13.8in guns but again, that's pretty close to average if you ignore the British 15in spam
Ersatz Yorck was just a Mackensen with 15in guns which is a lot closer to what the British were going with
desert agate
Hood was a solid 10'000t heavier
And had the protection to show it
Hood was also faster
maiden citrus
wintry moat
Hood was a solid 10'000t heavier
But wasn't she a lot lighter before hand
before jutland and the changes to her design
Which I guess makes if the Admiral Design rather than Hood
deep apex
I honestly got no clue
May 27 1918, against the French
grave ravine
I'm stuck down south of you in Jurassic Park, a.k.a. Florida
There is Ingham in the keys, but depending on where you are in Florida you may be closer to USS Alabama in Mobile or Yorktown and Laffey II in Charleston
grave ravine
I live in Northeast Georgia
Kinda surprised Charleston isn't a bit closer than Wilmington
maiden citrus
I would think it would be too
shrewd pecan
subtle prawn
hearty dome
USS Enterprise I randomly found on my gallery
warm finch
That´s from the "new" Midway movie right?
autumn sorrel
Yeah
sullen canyon
It focused mostly on the Enterprise and her crew from Pearl to Midway
frozen kestrel
Quick question: Does that one website (invenio) have the blueprints for Germany's old tank designs?
I'm currently trying to hunt down some blueprints for the Panzer VIII
manic latch
@tough quail Old H-6 and new H-6N
warm finch
<@84008086733324288> Old H-6 and new H-6N
Can´t deny that the chinese took over the whole aesthetics thing from the soviets
tough quail
wdym
warm finch
Iam saying that the Soviets had cool looking aircraft, and the Chinese, while also learning some of the other design philosphies and adopting them, also learned to keep that sense of cool you get whenever you look at a MiG-27 and think "that thing looks fucking sick"
tribal mortar
Aren't chinese planes vastly functionally inferior relative to western designs due to them being licensed adaptations of formerly russian designs?
manic latch
Aren't chinese planes vastly functionally inferior relative to western designs d...
No
West superiority comes most from electronics
Such as avionics
But we don't know the gap between China for example
People usually just assume China doesn't have AESA strong as West since US has experince since F-22 etc etc
Not unfair assumption but not %100 proven either
Su-30MKI interesting case however
She integrates Indian systems and avionics as well as French and Israeli sub-systems
subtle prawn
manic latch
@tough quail Turkish Pantsir becoming canon
35mm gun with smart fuse
Domestic AESA radar
Uhhh 4 big and 4 small missiles
tough quail
nightmare technology
gloomy current
<@84008086733324288> Turkish Pantsir becoming canon
That seems like a very random assortment of armament
spring briar
Rat
supple sandal
<@84008086733324288> Turkish Pantsir becoming canon
That look vastly different from the original Pantsir
maiden citrus
richo
junior trench
Richie~
manic latch
Poor
strong plank
Have you tried reverse image searching?
gloomy current
wintry moat
Thanks mate
tight wolf
whats the name of the german general who made the list in ww2 again?
quasi ridge
and also my grandpa has stamps from the early german weimar period to heidlers rise to power
desert agate
whats the name of the german general who made the list in ww2 again?
what list
quasi ridge
we have LOTS of stamps with heidlers face in it
random trench
my granpas father fought for rommel
Damn
tight wolf
my granpas father fought for rommel
thats interesting
sand kettle
my granpas father fought for rommel
Did he moved to Stalingrad later on?
quasi ridge
my granp is a stamp collector lol
random trench
HMS Warspite Royal Navy
quasi ridge
Did he moved to Stalingrad later on?
surrendered at el alamein i think
desert agate
like shinders list
you mean oskar schindler?
sand kettle
surrendered at el alamein i think
Lucky
tight wolf
he made like a list to prevent jewish massacre
tight wolf
oh i didnt know that
sand kettle
Was Schindler Czech?
quasi ridge
they later moved to canada
random trench
Yes he was
timber orbit
lucky indeed, to survived the war and helped rebuild Germany
flat copper
If I recall correctly, my great grandfather served as Eisenhower’s personal driver in Europe.
tight wolf
my family were refugees from china
sand kettle
Eastern Europe was brutal
tight wolf
went to indonesia
desert agate
i had family serve on the kokoda track and in the RAAF
random trench
my family were refugees from china
Same. Went to Malay
random trench
Then from there to the U.K.
tight wolf
especially for work
random trench
British empire things
sand kettle
Then from there to the U.K.
Is that how one of your own joined the Navy?
quasi ridge
my other side of the family were survivors of filipinos in ww2 i guess
idk what really happened in mindanao during ww2
random trench
Is that how one of your own joined the Navy?
My dads side is Chinese
My mum is english
My mums dad was B turret commander for Warspite
Only for a short while before being reassigned
sand kettle
Ohhhhh
quasi ridge
im 100% pure filipino, my grandpa that im mentioning is my step grandfather
desert agate
had about 3 grand uncles die at the Somme
flat copper
My mums dad was B turret commander for Warspite
That is significantly cooler than what my great grandfather did.
random trench
had about 3 grand uncles die at the Somme
Felt
random trench
That is significantly cooler than what my great grandfather did.
He loved that ship
sand kettle
Unfortunately, my family has no recollection of what happened during WW2
I got nothing to share
tight wolf
same
flat copper
He loved that ship
Wish it was still around.
random trench
Cried when she was put to scrap
quasi ridge
had about 3 grand uncles die at the Somme
damn
tight wolf
only thing i remember was that my great great grandfather died in a oil boat accident
desert agate
one of my ancestors was also the first school teacher in western australia
random trench
Laughed when she grounded herself
flat copper
Her and Enterprise deserved to have been preserved
maiden citrus
my grandfather was a medic on West Virginia
sand kettle
Cried when she was put to scrap
Should've saved some parts to be preserved
flat copper
Not tossed aside
tight wolf
oh ye my grandfather on my mom's side is a famous sculptist
desert agate
Enterprise was right to have been scrapped
random trench
Should've saved some parts to be preserved
Truth
tight wolf
he used to be on the newspaper
sand kettle
Her and Enterprise deserved to have been preserved
The ships in the Atoll deserved to be preserved
random trench
He died of cancer because asbestos but
maiden citrus
honestly both the ships conditions at the end of the war were terrible
quasi ridge
didnt some frenchies and brits often mutiny over attacking
random trench
didnt some frenchies and brits often mutiny over attacking
Not the Brits
We never mutinied
desert agate
she didnt deserve to be disrespected by tourists who have no understanding of the blood that was spilled on those decks
random trench
The French did in 1916
quasi ridge
its really horrific when you know soldiers are mutinying over attacking or not
desert agate
tbf etaples is the singular major instance of a mutiny by British/Empire forces in WW1
quasi ridge
if i was in the british high command i would have never wasted a single soldiers life over 1 km of trenchline
desert agate
there were minor incidents and even some riots, but Etaples was by far the largest
maiden citrus
while not ship related, while stationed on WV and it sent to pearl harbor, he won two local boxing tournaments lol
tight wolf
what was the name port where russian sailors mutinied in like 1905 or smth
random trench
tbf etaples is the singular major instance of a mutiny by British/Empire forces ...
After the Russians left, along with the French, for a few months we were the only effective fighting force on the ententes side
tight wolf
the mutiny when the Tsar was still in power
random trench
what was the name port where russian sailors mutinied in like 1905 or smth
Port Arthur
sand kettle
what was the name port where russian sailors mutinied in like 1905 or smth
Port Arthur
quasi ridge
what was the name port where russian sailors mutinied in like 1905 or smth
port arthur
tight wolf
ah i see
random trench
if i was in the british high command i would have never wasted a single soldiers...
The tactics simply weren’t up to date
quasi ridge
the mutiny when the Tsar was still in power
if i remember correctly the russo japanese war
desert agate
since the AIF almost burning down the red light district in Alexandria in a massive riot, technically wasnt a mutiny
maiden citrus
I consider myself extremely lucky to have done a project in school on ships and got to interview my own grandfather who enjoyed talking to me
random trench
However there were some interesting developments
flat copper
she didnt deserve to be disrespected by tourists who have no understanding of th...
I can understand that logic. I just wish I could’ve seen her for myself.
random trench
For instance, the Canadians and Aussies were the best at trench raiding
desert agate
if i was in the british high command i would have never wasted a single soldiers...
it was by far the most effective method of taking and holding ground, if ridiculously brutal
random trench
The Canadians were notorious for it, along with their policy of take no prisoner and kill the wounded
desert agate
For instance, the Canadians and Aussies were the best at trench raiding
I would note that it was an Australian commander who invented modern combined arms on the Western Front
maiden citrus
two sides to the coin imo, preserving or scrapping, though I do agree it would probably have been near impossible due to condition
quasi ridge
the canadians werent sorry for that
random trench
the canadians werent sorry for that
They’ve never been sorry
They’re like a calm golden retriever outside of war
But a fucking chihuahua in wartime
desert agate
and Australian trench raiding entirely changed methods of combat on the Western Front
quasi ridge
agreed
tough quail
comes with the territory of having an actual storied carreer
sand kettle
Give them shotguns, and the Canadians are the most feared units of ww1
random trench
The Canadians were some of the only units to continue trench raiding coming into 1918
tough quail
the ships with the most to tell have the most scars to try to hold together
random trench
Give them shotguns, and the Canadians are the most feared units of ww1
Warcrime sticks
timber orbit
so those "trench raiders" specialist in BF1 were mainly Aussies? 
gloomy current
Aussies are pretty good at warcrimes too
random trench
so those "trench raiders" specialist in BF1 were mainly Aussies? <:NagatoStare:6...
Not exactly
sand kettle
Warcrime sticks
War criminals with warcrime sticks
tough quail
even if the british came out of ww2 rolling in dosh warspite wouldn't have been preserved either
timber orbit
imagine Niji-grandpa as trench raiders
tough quail
because she'd be falling apart in port
desert agate
The Canadians were some of the only units to continue trench raiding coming into...
all 5 divisions of the AIF conducted trench raidingon the Western Front, and were by far the most effective
maiden citrus
warspite was super effed up too yeah
random trench
They were anyone who was trained to infiltrate, capture, and crawl back to friendly lines
quasi ridge
warspite was old for a BB
sand kettle
There are no bad sides in WW1
maiden citrus
major parts of the ship were irreparable
desert agate
objective falsehood
tough quail
lebensraum started in imperial germany
quasi ridge
she saw action in 2 world wars, she needed some rest
tight wolf
There are no bad sides in WW1
wasnt they just caught up in like the alliance shit
random trench
all 5 divisions of the AIF conducted trench raidingon the Western Front, and wer...
It depends what you mean by effective
The Canadians were also just as lethal
tight wolf
like wasnt the whole of europe somehow tied into an alliance and u just needed 1 spark to set it off for ww1
desert agate
Imperial Germany and the central powers were undeniably the agressors
sand kettle
wasnt they just caught up in like the alliance shit
Here's what I know: the war started because of a family feud
random trench
like wasnt the whole of europe somehow tied into an alliance and u just needed 1...
Yes it was a powder keg
autumn sorrel
major parts of the ship were irreparable
Didn’t the Fritz X did number on her? After ww2 she would have been so beat up
tight wolf
Here's what I know: the war started because of a family feud
ye and it grew really big because of the alliance stuff
alliances meant to prevent war started a bigger one
random trench
Bismarck himself noted that “some damn thing will happen in the Balkan’s”
quasi ridge
Imperial Germany and the central powers were undeniably the agressors
it was actually austria, germany was only looking for an opening for a war
maiden citrus
Didn’t the Fritz X did number on her? After ww2 she would have been so beat up
yes, off the top of my head she was reported as 'permanently maimed'
sand kettle
it was actually austria, germany was only looking for an opening for a war
Sorry? Who shot the Archduke?
quasi ridge
Sorry? Who shot the Archduke?
serbian
thwy wouldnt lay off serbia lol the assasination was justified
random trench
it was actually austria, germany was only looking for an opening for a war
-be Austria
-hate Serbians because imperialism
-Serbians shoot the archduke
-declare war after blank check
-somehow still suck balls
quasi ridge
and with that i have started an argument
desert agate
It depends what you mean by effective
i would determine effectiveness by results, not bodycount
sand kettle
Bismarck even said that a world war would start by a guy in the Balkans
desert agate
and the AIF provided, by far, the most results
random trench
i would determine effectiveness by results, not bodycount
I just can’t say either one was better
random trench
Both were amazing
desert agate
General Herbert Plumer, commander of the British 2nd Army, stated:
At the same time I would like to tell you that there is no division, certainly in my army, perhaps in the whole British Army, which has done more to destroy the morale of the enemy than the 1st Australian Division
tough quail
well to be fair its >the balkans
thats kind of a given
it's basically a geopolitical thunderdome from hell
desert agate
the AIF had captured 4km of land in a few weeks well before the Hundred Days Offensive had even started
timber orbit
"great war would start from the damn thing(s) in Balkan"
desert agate
Haig was completely surprised to learn that his front had actually advanced before he ordered the offensive
random trench
General Herbert Plumer, commander of the British 2nd Army, stated:
> At the sam...
Okay so I have my answer
desert agate
trench raids however are nothing compared to the invention of modern combined arms with close coordination of infantry, armour, artillery and air assets
random trench
The Aussies were notoriously better
However.
The Canadians were by far the most ruthless
timber orbit
and mp18 smg
tough quail
im brainstorming how to trace this forward into the future to canadian and australian special forces being complete pyschos for some reason
desert agate
i would consider that to be unprofessional and unbecoming of a modern military force and the officers responsible for the execution of wounded German prisoners should have been shot
sand kettle
The Canadians were by far the most ruthless
Are we still talking about WW1?
random trench
“In one particularly cruel episode, Canadians even exploited the trust of Germans who had apparently become accustomed to fraternizing with allied units. Lieutenant Louis Keene described the practice of lobbing tins of corned beef into a neighbouring German trench. When the Canadians started hearing happy shouts of “More! Give us more!” they then let loose with an armload of grenades.”
sand kettle
Question
random trench
Are we still talking about WW1?
For this moment yes
maiden citrus
im brainstorming how to trace this forward into the future to canadian and austr...
I mean it's certainly how you get canadian sniper records and australian/new zealand ww2 troops lol
autumn sorrel
“In one particularly cruel episode, Canadians even exploited the trust of German...
That’s kinda dickish
random trench
That’s kinda dickish
It is
wintry moat
You treat them like animals they treat you like animals
tough quail
“In one particularly cruel episode, Canadians even exploited the trust of German...
yeah congrats you're a tremendous cunt dragging the last little bit of humanity out of hell on earth
sand kettle
Question
desert agate
there is no instance in which the execution of POWs and wounded is acceptable in the 20th or 21st centuries
random trench
The Canadians had to be reeled in
Literally the British soldiers were like what the actual fuck dude
autumn sorrel
yeah congrats you're a tremendous cunt dragging the last little bit of humanity ...
On par with asshole ordered fire during Christmas truce
desert agate
if the entire Canadian expeditionary force is conducting such behaviour, it should be withdrawn from the front, its officers court martialled and the infantry retrained
sand kettle
Wait, so what were the British higher ranks doing when they found out what the Canadians are doing?
random trench
“While all Commonwealth units were encouraged to conduct trench raids, Canadians were widely regarded as trench raiding’s most enthusiastic practitioners and innovators.”
manic latch
On par with asshole ordered fire during Christmas truce
Opportunity > morality?
autumn sorrel
Wait, so what were the British higher ranks doing when they found out what the C...
Drinking tea
gloomy current
higher ranks on both sides wanted the men to murder each other
random trench
Turning a blind eye
gloomy current
that was kinda the point of the war
sand kettle
Drinking tea
So they just thought it's a privilege?
desert agate
especially given how Australian trench raids would regularly take over 100 prisoners per raid
random trench
Fear is a weapon and the Canadians used it
desert agate
a far more effective, and far more humane method of conducting such operations
random trench
especially given how Australian trench raids would regularly take over 100 priso...
And Canadians would KILL 30 and bring no one home
tough quail
like on a technical and objective
random trench
So yeah I agree the Aussies were better
desert agate
And Canadians would KILL 30 and bring no one home
and the officers responsible should have been shot
autumn sorrel
Opportunity > morality?
Could be argue that way but if you reach that point then fighting will be really hellish with no quarter given or ask
manic latch
And Canadians would KILL 30 and bring no one home
Dead man tell no tales
tough quail
damn dawg that's a pretty effective way to kill people, and all those crazy trench raids are effective too
random trench
and the officers responsible should have been shot
They were under British officers but I think the Canadians just refused to listen sometimes
tough quail
however
random trench
Which was bad
maiden citrus
makes me think of the jewish prisoners in that one camp that got out and put the nazi camp guards in the furnace
sand kettle
This is my first time that Canadians in WW1 has done such a thing
desert agate
They were under British officers but I think the Canadians just refused to liste...
instances of mutiny should be delt with within the military law structure, and troopers responsible should be court martialled
ringleaders should be shot
manic latch
Could be argue that way but if you reach that point then fighting will be really...
It's related to hate alot
Main reason it was better to be Western pow than eastern front pow. More deaths you inflict on more side less the chance they will spare you. It's a duplicating effect
random trench
instances of mutiny should be delt with within the military law structure, and t...
“In some cases, Cook found evidence of Canadian commanders explicitly ordering their troops not to take prisoners. He quoted James Owen, a then-16-year-old private, who was told by his commanding officer before a 1916 attack “I don’t want any prisoners.” Before the attack on Vimy Ridge, veteran Archie McWade said he was told, “Remember, no prisoners. They will just eat your rations.”
tough quail
court martialing will continue until behavior improves
bratty infantry needs correction
random trench
Okay so yeah the officers ORDERED them
autumn sorrel
Frankly, if you indiscriminately killing pow, it get to the point where fighting till the death is more preferable
desert agate
if the Canadian army was such an unprofessional and poorly organised military structure, it had no right to service on the Western Front
manic latch
~~bratty infantry needs correction~~
random trench
if the Canadian army was such an unprofessional and poorly organised military st...
To be honest I don’t even know anymore
They were damn good at what they did but Jesus Christ
It’s like having chained animals for soldiers
desert agate
the logistical capacity for taking large numbers of prisoners undeniably existed on the Western Front, there is no excuse for this behaviour
it violates all laws of war, even those existing at the time
random trench
it violates all laws of war, even those existing at the time
Yeah
sand kettle
Guys
random trench
The Canadians liberally used gas, fire, anything they could
autumn sorrel
makes me think of the jewish prisoners in that one camp that got out and put the...
I learn about Jewish plot to poison and kill millions of German after the war. Like, I understand the feeling but killing indiscriminate like this is just terrorism.
random trench
It’s like giving serial killers free reign
manic latch
I learn about Jewish plot to poison and kill millions of German after the war. L...
Einstein was the main supporter of nuking Berlin irrc
maiden citrus
I learn about Jewish plot to poison and kill millions of German after the war. L...
yeah, just that example is what came to mind for morally grey
wintry moat
there's also something to be said about having the ability to look a unarmed, wounded man in the face and pull the trigger
desert agate
I will maintain that the AIFs experiences in the first world war was a heroic tragedy that cost the nation 60'000 men, and the Canadians behaving like that reinforces that belief
maiden citrus
at that point germany had been getting roled for like 2 years yeah
random trench
A German Colonel spoke with Canadian POW Fred Hamilton, shortly before the end of the war. A savage beating awaited Hamilton. “I don’t care for the English, Scotch, French, Australians or Belgians”. “But, damn you Canadians, you take no prisoners and you kill our wounded”.
wintry moat
That takes a certain kinda physco
manic latch
could you imagine how much worse the nuke morality argument would be for berlin
Weirdly it would save Soviet lives since there would be no "Rush to Berlin" because Berlin doesn't exist anymore
tough quail
and you can more importantly just get there
maiden citrus
and it's not like berlin is some isolated area that would take a bajillion soldiers and equipment to assault
tough quail
as opposed to japan being a potage stamp covered in spikes
random trench
I will maintain that the AIFs experiences in the first world war was a heroic tr...
Aussies and New Zealanders were just innocent bystanders
wintry moat
Death Island
random trench
Not innocent but you know what I mean
desert agate
far from bystanders
random trench
More civilised than the Canadians
desert agate
simply fighting in a war that they did not belong in
sand kettle
Are the Canadians much worse than the Soviets?
autumn sorrel
That takes a certain kinda physco
On par with IJN style of killing Allied sailors and civilians
random trench
Are the Canadians much worse than the Soviets?
It’s a hard comparison
The Soviets exacted revenge
The Canadians did it for sport
manic latch
Are the Canadians much worse than the Soviets?
At least Germans didn't massacred Canadians or bombed their cities
So I would say Canadian justification is worse
autumn sorrel
Are the Canadians much worse than the Soviets?
Soviet kill you slowly in workcamp but you have a chance to return, Canadian just straight up dick
sand kettle
On par with IJN style of killing Allied sailors and civilians
I heard the IJN sailors, when they find American pilots, they take fireaxes and chop off their hands
wintry moat
Damn, the fucking Canadians just go batshit during major wars
random trench
Damn, the fucking Canadians just go batshit during major wars
Yeah something awakens
Their officers were something scary
autumn sorrel
I heard the IJN sailors, when they find American pilots, they take fireaxes and ...
And force sailor to march toward the spinning propeller of sub
maiden citrus
I heard the IJN sailors, when they find American pilots, they take fireaxes and ...
I mean japanese had baby stabbing competitions so that's the bar you're working with
sand kettle
No wonder why they were called The Devil's Brigade
manic latch
And force sailor to march toward the spinning propeller of sub
That's sounds too wasteful to be real ngl
desert agate
on the Kokoda track, neither side considered taking prisoners an option, however I would consider that to be far more understandable than the unprofessional, unmilitary-like behaviour of the Canadians, as there was no logistical capacity for transporting prisoners, wounded or not, back to either sides logistical hubs, whereas the Western Front was in France, where logistical capacity was plentiful
autumn sorrel
That's sounds too wasteful to be real ngl
This is IJN, this are the guys that eat people liver bc reason.
random trench
on the Kokoda track, neither side considered taking prisoners an option, however...
This
flat copper
This is IJN, this are the guys that eat people liver bc reason.
The imperial Japanese military in general were just the fucking worst.
random trench
This is IJN, this are the guys that eat people liver bc reason.
I will be completely real with you. It wasn’t the entire IJN. At the end of the day some chose to be human beings
But their overall reputation was horrible and definitely shouldn’t be defended
maiden citrus
The imperial Japanese military in general were just the fucking worst.
when you scare nazi germans with your brutality it should give pause
random trench
To be clear with you is this WW1 or 2 Canadians?
Both💀
wintry moat
ok
wintry moat
so
random trench
It’s both
autumn sorrel
I will be completely real with you. It wasn’t the entire IJN. At the end of the ...
So why are you saying as if the entire Canadian military is a blood thirst brute?
manic latch
To be clear with you is this WW1 or 2 Canadians?
Both
random trench
So why are you saying as if the entire Canadian military is a blood thirst brute...
Because they Unironically were.
desert agate
I will be completely real with you. It wasn’t the entire IJN. At the end of the ...
it was the entire IJN
random trench
it was the entire IJN
It was?
desert agate
it was the entire IJA
sand kettle
They seemed nice in general, but beneath their kind behavior is a demon waiting to be unleashed
desert agate
it was the entire military and government of Japan
random trench
it was the entire military and government of Japan
Oppenheimer intensifies
maiden citrus
he couldn't dream
like I said japan unironically had baby katana stabbing contests
wintry moat
Wasn't that during the Manchuria invasion
maiden citrus
and often times even the nazis commented on their brutality
desert agate
wintry moat
or at least during the China Campaign
tough quail
god which country was it even the fucking SS got freaked out by
random trench
and often times even the nazis commented on their brutality
You see, the nazis commented on the brutality. The US introduced the fucking Sun
tough quail
wasnt it croatia
random trench
god which country was it even the fucking SS got freaked out by
Croatia
sand kettle
Jesus they looked like they have only a week left to live
desert agate
yeah the Ustache
manic latch
like I said japan unironically had baby katana stabbing contests
There is even an image but can't post naturally
remote monolith
see the problem with the IJA and the IJN are that the violence and brutality are all systematically and deliberately instilled towards the personnel themselves, so in turn they'll inflict it to everyone else and so forth
flat copper
The IJN were just as bad as the IJA.
maiden citrus
yeah it wasn't like a uh
autumn sorrel
like I said japan unironically had baby katana stabbing contests
I saw that pic once, not even censored, fucking weeboo still screaming about Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
manic latch
it was newspaper headline material
Yeah the famous "who can kill 100 Chinese fastest" competition
flat copper
see the problem with the IJA and the IJN are that the violence and brutality are...
Still does not justify any of the atrocities they committed.
remote monolith
Still does not justify any of the atrocities they committed.
that's not a justification
desert agate
the IJN routinely held interrogations by tying up men and throwing them overboard if they didnt provide information they wanted
sand kettle
Yeah the famous "who can kill 100 Chinese fastest" competition
What the hell was the reward?
flat copper
that's not a justification
Ok then.
wintry moat
Didn't think it was an Excuse
manic latch
What the hell was the reward?
Sport
autumn sorrel
Yeah the famous "who can kill 100 Chinese fastest" competition
They can’t even claim they don’t know like German civvies
wintry moat
More of a reason as to why
tough quail
i do wanna stress before it goes into that direction that army warcrimes =/= their countries civilians are guilty for it
random trench
They can’t even claim they don’t know like German civvies
This is why they were nuked
autumn sorrel
What the hell was the reward?
Swag right
tough quail
don't swing into the opposite direction of "fuck yeah torch those german/japanese civvies"
tough quail
This is why they were nuked
you know like this guy
flat copper
i do wanna stress before it goes into that direction that army warcrimes =/= the...
You didn’t need to worry about that from me.
remote monolith
My point was that at that point violence and cruelty is exceedingly common within the armed forces, which it turn encourages the men to be as brutal as possible against basically everyone else
random trench
you know like this guy
What i mean by that is they had what was coming to them
maiden citrus
the civilians ready to suicide rush at tanks with sticks and try to stab anyone
random trench
If they just didn’t think that there wouldn’t be any kind of response that’s just dumb
Yes killing civilians is bad
autumn sorrel
don't swing into the opposite direction of "fuck yeah torch those german/japanes...
I haven’t, yet. Despite the fact that my grand parent is nearly starve to death due to them.
tough quail
yeah surprise being brainwashed through decades of propaganda doesn't make you culpable
it makes you another victim
random trench
Stopping the entire war by introducing a type of firepower enough to flatten countries and kill millions..? Debatable
autumn sorrel
I still think killing civilians like that is just ghoulish
flat copper
Hell, the Japanese populace never really knew all that was happening during the war, particularly when the Japanese started losing.
manic latch
What i mean by that is they had what was coming to them
You are creating a loop
If you punish warcrimes with warcrimes then revenge warcrimes happen in future 
tough quail
the civilian indoctrination in japan is horrific
desert agate
6 year old Hans in Frankfurt did not deserve to have his family home wiped out and his parents killed because his government was one of the most evil in history
flat copper
the civilian indoctrination in japan is horrific
It was.
random trench
6 year old Hans in Frankfurt did not deserve to have his family home wiped out a...
This is true
wintry moat
6 year old Hans in Frankfurt did not deserve to have his family home wiped out a...
True
random trench
I’m catching myself in a loop
desert agate
does that remove the military necessity of the Allied strategic bombing campaign?
no
tight wolf
Hell, the Japanese populace never really knew all that was happening during the ...
didnt they like were told to kill themselves rather than be captured by the allies only to realize that the allies werent as bad as they seemed?
desert agate
but it adds a human factor, a nuance that needs to be considered
random trench
does that remove the military necessity of the Allied strategic bombing campaign...
Is it a horrible side effect of said campaign?
autumn sorrel
Hell, the Japanese populace never really knew all that was happening during the ...
If you constantly hearing victory news but enemy keep getting closer, even idiot will see how fuck it is.
remote monolith
didnt they like were told to kill themselves rather than be captured by the alli...
more or less the case yes
random trench
Yes
tight wolf
like mothers would end their own kids only to realize the allies werent that 'evil'
maiden citrus
didnt they like were told to kill themselves rather than be captured by the alli...
japanese on captured islands would throw themselves en masse over clifts yes
flat copper
If you constantly hearing victory news but enemy keep getting closer, even idiot...
And that’s the punchline.
tough quail
whatever mental gymnastics leads you from "the overarching japanese populace has had suicidal devotion and brutality ingrained into them over decades by their rulers" to "that means they deserved to die along with the military"
desert agate
every bombing run, every attack, came at the cost of civilian lives, civilians who, may or may not have been complicit in their governments actions, were not responsible for them
tough quail
should get your teeth punched down your throat
sand kettle
didnt they like were told to kill themselves rather than be captured by the alli...
Experienced Marines may not share a forgiving treatment
flat copper
didnt they like were told to kill themselves rather than be captured by the alli...
Pretty much.
autumn sorrel
japanese on captured islands would throw themselves en masse over clifts yes
USMC isn’t like what propaganda said but if it was the Canadian, killing yourself like that might be preferable
random trench
every bombing run, every attack, came at the cost of civilian lives, civilians w...
Hence why rules of engagement was born
desert agate
whatever mental gymnastics leads you from "the overarching japanese populace has...
tbh it was like 15 years at most
remote monolith
the Japanese high command rightly feared mass desertion if the men figured out the Allies generally speaking treats PoWs rather well, so they told the men to keep fighting no matter what which in turn leads to decreased willingness to take prisoners on the Allies side, which it turn leads to more fanatical resistances as it looked like the officers were right
manic latch
Re education is important ye
sand kettle
Yep I'm out
tough quail
pre-meiji japan was also a backwater feudal hellhole
sand kettle
I'll see you guys in AL general
random trench
Re education is important ye
You see but the Japanese don’t see the war as something THEY did wrong
tough quail
japan had been vaguely "normal" for like
random trench
Even to this day they portray the war as some sort of patriotic struggle
tough quail
ten minutes
autumn sorrel
Fucking Mcunter faults
manic latch
You see but the Japanese don’t see the war as something THEY did wrong
They are still better than what would happen if you left them like that
desert agate
the Japan of the 1920s was a remarkably liberal and democratic society
flat copper
Just look up Guy Gabaldon. The Pie-eyed Piper of Saipan
tight wolf
Experienced Marines may not share a forgiving treatment
i was talking about civillians mainly
autumn sorrel
He going light on the Japanese
random trench
the Japan of the 1920s was a remarkably liberal and democratic society
Truth, tbh I blame Britain and the US
tough quail
yeah, it was just a flash in the pan unfortunately
random trench
they literally said “no we will not treat you equally on the world stage becuase you are an inferior people”
flat copper
The man saved the most Japanese soldiers by convincing them to surrender.
desert agate
the Japanese military government caused irreparable societal damage to Japan which is still being felt today
wintry moat
I didn't know that was a racist term
random trench
I didn't know that was a racist term
Yeah it’s a term the US used for them
random trench
Japan is afterall more or less a 1 party state today
Which STILL doesn’t like foreigners
desert agate
eh
random trench
They still have signs in some stores that say no foreigners
manic latch
I didn't know that was a racist term
was not considered primarily offensive. However, following the bombing of Pearl Harbor and the Japanese declaration of war on the US, the term began to be used derogatorily, as anti-Japanese sentiment increased
tough quail
there's also the point to be made that like
autumn sorrel
I didn't know that was a racist term
Tbf, I heard way worse when talking to US vet
tough quail
when your government goes fucking insane
its not really a universal option to just, uh, leave
wintry moat
I used it as shorthand for Japanese
manic latch
was not considered primarily offensive. However, following the bombing of Pearl ...
I love how this didn't changed
tight wolf
i mean like japan nowadays is running a completely different govermant than imperial japan so why compare those 2
manic latch
I love how this didn't changed
People still go monkey mode when they have a enemy country
maiden citrus
They still have signs in some stores that say no foreigners
it's really easy to forget in like, regularity, that japan is unironically really racist even now
random trench
i mean like japan nowadays is running a completely different govermant than impe...
It runs a completely different government but they still don’t see the war as THEIR fault
tough quail
the majority of the population of germany not immediately leaving the country when hitler came to power doesnt make the majority of germans nazi culpable terrible people
tight wolf
It runs a completely different government but they still don’t see the war as TH...
ye true
random trench
it's really easy to forget in like, regularity, that japan is unironically reall...
Asia is pretty racist
tight wolf
but like how could japan fix it
tough quail
it means they uh.. didn't upend their lives and emigrate
autumn sorrel
i mean like japan nowadays is running a completely different govermant than impe...
There are still concerns in Asia on whether they would go bonker again
tough quail
because thats not realistic or feasible
random trench
but like how could japan fix it
By changing the way they teach kids
flat copper
the majority of the population of germany not immediately leaving the country wh...
I’ve long since come to the viewpoint that not every German was a evil Nazi.
tight wolf
There are still concerns in Asia on whether they would go bonker again
i mean theres china who actually has a military
random trench
i mean theres china who actually has a military
And China is just as bad
If not worse
desert agate
oh lord
autumn sorrel
i mean theres china who actually has a military
JSDF is still an army no matter what they said
tough quail
"your countries military and government are evil, why do you live there?"
i dunno bruv why don't you buy me a fucking house in switzerland
random trench
"your countries military and government are evil, why do you live there?"
i dun...
Poor intensifies
remote monolith
nah dw Godzilla is keeping the JSDF in check so they're forced to spend all their high tech gadgets on stopping him/s
tight wolf
japan seems like a nice place to be in tho tbh
flat copper
"your countries military and government are evil, why do you live there?"
i dun...
Way too fucking true.
tight wolf
nah dw Godzilla is keeping the JSDF in check so they're forced to spend all thei...
the anime coming out of japan is merely a distraction for their plot to take over the world
fr
random trench
japan seems like a nice place to be in tho tbh
Like any country, it depends on where
desert agate
me knowing that my nation and government are unapolegetically good and can do no wrong (Ben Roberts Smith? nah never heard of him)
manic latch
the majority of the population of germany not immediately leaving the country wh...
Sadly no country wanted to accept Jewish refugees. And Soviet Union was too fucking paranoid of potential spies to accept them
remote monolith
japan seems like a nice place to be in tho tbh
not if you're a non native it's not
autumn sorrel
"your countries military and government are evil, why do you live there?"
i dun...
My gov is corrupt to the core and majority of my people is heavily brainwashed but it is hard to justify abandoning your own homeland just bc of that
desert agate
me knowing that my nation and government are unapolegetically good and can do no...
this is a joke btw
tight wolf
Sadly no country wanted to accept Jewish refugees. And Soviet Union was too fuck...
didnt germany offer the allies the chance to take jewish refugees
tight wolf
but the allies refused
tough quail
Sadly no country wanted to accept Jewish refugees. And Soviet Union was too fuck...
"pls no jewish illuminati" - stalin
thanks buddy you really helped
manic latch
didnt germany offer the allies the chance to take jewish refugees
This is the offer
No country wanted them
tight wolf
ye
autumn sorrel
Sadly no country wanted to accept Jewish refugees. And Soviet Union was too fuck...
cough cough doctor plot
tough quail
My gov is corrupt to the core and majority of my people is heavily brainwashed b...
pretty much, its just not realistic
random trench
"pls no jewish illuminati" - stalin
thanks buddy you really helped
This is Stalin we’re talking about
tough quail
yeah thats part of the joke
random trench
Literally the allies just wanted the Soviets to die more so they didn’t have to deal with it
tough quail
also stalin basically turned into demi hitler irt jews in the last couple years he was alive anyway
random trench
As long as it was Russians and communists dying no one cared
tight wolf
did the allies actually deliberately delay the invasion of france to hurt russia more?
random trench
also stalin basically turned into demi hitler irt jews in the last couple years ...
Even before then
tight wolf
or was that just stalin being paranoid
maiden citrus
paranoid
remote monolith
did the allies actually deliberately delay the invasion of france to hurt russia...
no?
desert agate
Literally the allies just wanted the Soviets to die more so they didn’t have to ...
that is objectively wrong
random trench
did the allies actually deliberately delay the invasion of france to hurt russia...
They delayed because Britain through a hissy fit over Italy
autumn sorrel
pretty much, its just not realistic
It is easy for an outsider to decry a country action and it citizens inability to denounce it but they never understand why the citizens stick to it.
random trench
Soft underbelly my ass
tight wolf
i honestly forgot about italy's africa campaign
manic latch
Lend lease wouldn't happen if West wanted more dead Soviets tho
tough quail
i dont think it was even a "paranoia" thing
maiden citrus
that is objectively wrong
-sends you half your own gdp-
man I hope you die thanks for doing business
random trench
Lend lease wouldn't happen if West wanted more dead Soviets tho
Actually that’s true
desert agate
i honestly forgot about italy's africa campaign
its okay. so did the Italians
autumn sorrel
did the allies actually deliberately delay the invasion of france to hurt russia...
That just stupid conspiracy shit
tough quail
HURRY THE FUCK UP
tight wolf
its okay. so did the Italians
they totally didnt change sides the moment italy looked like it was gonna lose
remote monolith
that kind downplays how insanely difficult a naval landing is in general, much less one with several hundred thousand men and the intention to create artifical harbors for supply usage
maiden citrus
I was wondering when we'd get to italy since we're speedrunning evil and italy was axis so uh, yeah, italy
random trench
Italy is in a weird funky place for me especially during the wars
desert agate
Italian military operations in Africa when the government forgets to send the ammunition (Mussolini wants his few thousand dead)
random trench
They were, both times, fucking horrible at war
maiden citrus
it was less "you are conspiring against us" and more stalin just saying
dude would spend people places to see if the allies were actually fighting
tight wolf
italy isnt as evil as germany e
desert agate
they totally didnt change sides the moment italy looked like it was gonna lose
that isnt what happened, and also Romania
manic latch
Tho personally I do find D-Day a bit late. Would be better if it was 1943 ngl 
autumn sorrel
HURRY THE FUCK UP
Allied did suffer a heavy lost during one of their raid and it really take time to build up force
random trench
Like how are you so bad at warfare that you get beaten by the Greeks.
tight wolf
wasnt italy racist like germany but not MASSACRE level?
random trench
wasnt italy racist like germany but not MASSACRE level?
Italy didn’t even know what was going on half the time
tough quail
Tho personally I do find D-Day a bit late. Would be better if it was 1943 ngl <:...
no, d-day was timed perfectly
random trench
They just wanted to be left alone Atp
tough quail
because the way normandie and bagration lined up
the entirety of the actual competent heer units left were all wiped out in the same week on both fronts
and thats really funny
random trench
because the way normandie and bagration lined up
Overlord* if you’re using operational names
tight wolf
wasnt there like 1 time where the allies put inflatable tanks to trick the germans?
random trench
the entirety of the actual competent heer units left were all wiped out in the s...
Yurd
maiden citrus
it also screwed the entire logistics of germany even more
desert agate
Like how are you so bad at warfare that you get beaten by the Greeks.
who would have thought that expeditionary operations straight into a mountain against a motivated and determined opponent would be difficult
flat copper
It was early enough that Roma became a target rich environment for u-boats.
random trench
who would have thought that expeditionary operations straight into a mountain ag...
Even against the Ethiopians
Literally Italy’s entire war effort is just a history of poor decisions
Mountains.
desert agate
Ethiopia, notable for uh... not winning against Italy in the 30s
maiden citrus
iirc they pulled like 1.2 mill or something people back from the east in an 'oh shit' moment
random trench
Italys worst enemy.
autumn sorrel
Even against the Ethiopians
That’s is Colonial force and Italy still win that one
desert agate
Italys military history in the 2nd world war is not only underappreciated but also understudied
random trench
Ethiopia, notable for uh... not winning against Italy in the 30s
I swear the Ethiopians beat them before
Or that’s in ww1
desert agate
the Italian armed forces fought well with the hand they were delt
desert agate
I swear the Ethiopians beat them before
yes, in the 1880s
autumn sorrel
Italys military history in the 2nd world war is not only underappreciated but al...
Their leader maybe shit but Italian soldiers and sailors are well trained and well motivated
random trench
Italys military history in the 2nd world war is not only underappreciated but al...
The Reggia Marina would have actually been more useful had they not been more or press crippled after Taranto
tough quail
the Italian armed forces fought well with the hand they were delt
note: the hand they were delt is a fist repeatedly punching them in the cock
tight wolf
imagine being made prime minister just by marching well totally not mussolini fr
manic latch
Also Churchill give Sword of Stalingrad sword to Stalin which is cool
autumn sorrel
The Reggia Marina would have actually been more useful had they not been more or...
They never were
random trench
They never were <:Ehhssex:611004140046254080>
They were a modern, powerful navy
I’m not even shitting you the British were seriously concerned about them
deep apex
They never were <:Ehhssex:611004140046254080>
Italian ASW efforts in the Battles of The Convoys: Wanna bet?
manic latch
They were a modern, powerful navy
Until fuel fucks them
autumn sorrel
Regia Marina still able to pose a threat until they switch side
desert agate
The Reggia Marina would have actually been more useful had they not been more or...
Taranto didnt cripple the Italian Navy, and the Italian Navy would regain naval superiority in the med multiple times
manic latch
Fuel cripples them
random trench
Taranto didnt cripple the Italian Navy, and the Italian Navy would regain naval ...
Here how about before I say anything let me quickly brush up so I don’t look stupid
maiden citrus
I do like how we did like, an evil speed run, then got to the last member of the axis and are just like, 'actually things just kinda sucked for them lol'
remote monolith
the Regia Marina kept the supply for Rommel open for 2 whole years despite casualties, that doesn't really say incompetent
random trench
I do like how we did like, an evil speed run, then got to the last member of the...
This is true
desert agate
i would note that the Italian Navy was reasonably successful at protecting supply lines to North Africa
autumn sorrel
Italian ASW efforts in the Battles of The Convoys: Wanna bet?
You really want to talk about ASW in med, where sub can literally be seen from the air!
random trench
i would note that the Italian Navy was reasonably successful at protecting suppl...
This is true, however they fall short everywhere else
tight wolf
italian tanks kek
desert agate
the RN and Commonwealth forces struggled to break those lines
random trench
I don’t recall the Italian navy winning any major engagements at sea
At least not to my knowledge
deep apex
You really want to talk about ASW in med, where sub can literally be seen from t...
You dont think they knew that too?
tight wolf
wasnt italian tanks like just a grenade
tough quail
italian tankettes are based and slander against them will be met with die
tight wolf
because they were so lethal to the crew inside
random trench
wasnt italian tanks like just a grenade
They were riveted pieces of tin Atp
flat copper
Didn’t the Italian Navy only really exist IN the Mediterranean?
tight wolf
did italy even have actual tanks and not just tanketees
random trench
Didn’t the Italian Navy only really exist IN the Mediterranean?
Yes
maiden citrus
the loss of unde has had tragic effects
remote monolith
indeed
desert agate
they didnt win any major naval engagements but they managed to maintain a threatening and capable fleet in being that the Allies struggled to defeat decisively
deep apex
And Italy's industrial state was very weak
random trench
they didnt win any major naval engagements but they managed to maintain a threat...
This is true
autumn sorrel
Didn’t the Italian Navy only really exist IN the Mediterranean?
They don’t really build for global action
random trench
And Italy's industrial state was very weak
It always has been
desert agate
the Italian Navy suffered setbacks, but never decisively lost an engagement
tight wolf
i mean like doesnt europe in general relied on exports to get their materials except maybe germany in ww2?
desert agate
when it lost, its losses didnt definitively change the balance of power in the Med
manic latch
They don’t really build for global action
That's why Littorio has even worse range than Soyuz. They are defensive or Med focused ships like Soyuz's doctrine
tight wolf
or am i wrong
eternal veldt
Italy has in mind a "breakout fleet" if necessary
tough quail
its okay italy rebounded and clowned on the rest of the world in cars and racing to make up for it
deep apex
or am i wrong
Wrong
flat copper
They don’t really build for global action
There are a number of Azur Lane jokes I am trying to hold back from saying right now.
tough quail
autumn sorrel
they didnt win any major naval engagements but they managed to maintain a threat...
Italian still managed to sortie out of port when the IJN can’t even move around Home Islands 
eternal veldt
This is where the famous "Littorio successor" was described
eternal veldt
...no
manic latch
eternal veldt
Soyuz has a mixed milleage anyway
random trench
I thought I was missing something
eternal veldt
From TsKb, VB-4, TZZ and Italy
autumn sorrel
That's why Littorio has even worse range than Soyuz. They are defensive or Med f...
People keep complaining about how short range it was when Italian sailor was comfortable sleeping each night in port, all over Italy 
random trench
The Italian navy wasn’t bad at all
tight wolf
imagine being in japan during dolittle raid
random trench
However they lacked sonar and radar equipment that their British adversaries possessed
maiden citrus
People keep complaining about how short range it was when Italian sailor was com...
yeah if you keep the ships specifically in that theater it's fine, they're basically in a big lake surrounding their nation
tight wolf
like just imagine being in an isolated country where u thought was fairly invincible then u see a weirdly looking plane
eternal veldt
You just don't like the toobs
random trench
So literally bad weather or out of sight engagement’s were just
eternal veldt
Skill issue
tough quail
yeah im not a tube guy basically
tight wolf
and suddenly some of ur buildings are on fire
flat copper
Do we even need to mention the amount of rangefinders Littorio had?
maiden citrus
then it was questioned if they would be useful in the pacific
random trench
Don’t go out to sea
maiden citrus
and a resounding no
tough quail
its not bad per se
maiden citrus
lol
tough quail
just not my cup of tea
desert agate
However they lacked sonar and radar equipment that their British adversaries pos...
Italy was poor and underdeveloped, so its understandable that they struggled with advanced technologies
eternal veldt
Well, they are kinda bad, somewhat
deep apex
Italian industry across all sectors was woefully underdeveloped. Captured pieces of weapons showed that the Italians were very much able to produce good quality parts and weapons, and thus knew what components were needed to make such weapons, but were hampered in all sectors by company competition, corruption, lack of resources, refusal to adopt new production methods, and more.
eternal veldt
The pugliese tower did limit the aerial visibility and thus, ability for air command
random trench
Italy was poor and underdeveloped, so its understandable that they struggled wit...
Which was rather useful to Britain
tight wolf
did dolittle raid actually deal damage or was it just to like decrease morale of japanese troops?
eternal veldt
And not like the Regia Aeronautica and Marina are excellent at coordinating stuff
random trench
did dolittle raid actually deal damage or was it just to like decrease morale of...
Little to no damage physically
autumn sorrel
Italy was poor and underdeveloped, so its understandable that they struggled wit...
And what they achieved with the navy is so impressive despite the circumstances
tough quail
and to raise morale at home more than anything
random trench
Big boy mental damage
maiden citrus
mostly morale
eternal veldt
stares at Punta Stilo
tough quail
the actual bombing was just like
maiden citrus
it's just 'hey we can hit you'
tough quail
a thing
tight wolf
Little to no damage physically
ah so morale+led them to midway later on
deep apex
did dolittle raid actually deal damage or was it just to like decrease morale of...
It was a punch to say "we can hit you too, fuckhead"
eternal veldt
It embarrassed the war cabinet
random trench
ah so morale+led them to midway later on
The Japanese were functionally operating on a “big battle strategy”
eternal veldt
Specifically the navy
tight wolf
didnt japan like keep most of their fighters at their island
maiden citrus
which fairly japan's plans for the reverse of doolittle on the actual us was uh
tight wolf
because of dolittle
random trench
They were seeking a decisive engagement with the US
maiden citrus
even less effective than doolittle
eternal veldt
Who promised that the Japanese homelands would never come to harm when conducting the war
autumn sorrel
didnt japan like keep most of their fighters at their island
Army fighters
desert agate
anyway since we're talking about the Italian Navy, heres a Breda gun on an RAN destroyer, I believe HMAS Vendetta
tight wolf
Who promised that the Japanese homelands would never come to harm when conductin...
i mean they did pretty well for a century
tough quail
to be fair
random trench
anyway since we're talking about the Italian Navy, heres a Breda gun on an RAN d...
That image makes me angry and yet happy
eternal veldt
Doolittle Raid broke that illusion, and further cemented the belief that the US carriers must be destroyed at all costs
tough quail
the fire balloons were really funny
tight violet
I suddenly feel a need to learn more about how ww2 airbases were laid out, especially those designed to house large bombers
random trench
I suddenly feel a need to learn more about how ww2 airbases were laid out, espec...
Look at the airfields at Biggen Hill in the U.K.
autumn sorrel
Who promised that the Japanese homelands would never come to harm when conductin...
I feel like the Army chief of Staff was dancing when he hear the new that IJN fucked up
maiden citrus
'we shall bomb the panama canal!'
'with?'
'with submarine floatplane carrying 100 pound bomb!'
tough quail
japanese pyromancers cast fireball into the winds directed at
maiden citrus
-everyone turns their heads and looks awkwardly-
tough quail
middle of fuck nowhere united states
random trench
The one thing that really scared people though was the IJN’s torpedo’s
shrewd pecan
mandatory Oto posting since Italy was mentioned earlier
autumn sorrel
'we shall bomb the panama canal!'
'with?'
'with submarine floatplane carrying ...
Yamamoto is just Japanese Jackie Fischer
random trench
Like dawg
eternal veldt
i mean they did pretty well for a century
Until the Sakoku policy didnt work and the western arrived with heavy technological advantage
flat copper
The Japanese also did not initially believe that they had managed to bring a carrier that close to their island. They spent a little bit of time looking through all the previously owned American islands near them but it didn’t take long for them to realize the planes did come from carriers.
tough quail
mandatory Oto posting since Italy was mentioned earlier
cool and based
tight wolf
Doolittle Raid broke that illusion, and further cemented the belief that the US ...
and led them to believe planes came from midway
deep apex
The Japanese were so desperate for oil they were experimenting with extracting oil from pine needles
flat copper
That did not sit well with them.
eternal veldt
A story to be repeated in the far east
desert agate
because in the whacky world of the Mediterranean, for the RAN with their chain of command on the other side of the world, they could get away with stealing things from warehouses and the RN couldnt actually do anything about it because the ships legally werent British property
manic latch
Soyuz has a mixed milleage anyway
My unique butterfly
desert agate
so the RAN could make unnoficial modifications
tight wolf
also did the americans who did dolittle raid were captured by the soviets?
desert agate
and the RN just had to seethe
tight wolf
or the soviets just said fuck it and let em go
random trench
Not really, Aliied don’t even know about it till late in the war
And when they did know aboht it
deep apex
also did the americans who did dolittle raid were captured by the soviets?
One crew was
random trench
A lot of people died
eternal veldt
and led them to believe planes came from midway
No, I don't think so. Task Force 17 was spotted by a picket boat, and its locations reported before Nashville dispatched her.
manic latch
or the soviets just said fuck it and let em go
They let it go mostly. Happened with B-29 emergency landings (after analyzing the shit out of plane)
tight wolf
No, I don't think so. Task Force 17 was spotted by a picket boat, and its locati...
oh ye forgot about that. That boat led the planes to take off earlier than planned
eternal veldt
Therefore, the Japanese were aware that the carriers were operating in proximity of the Japanese home waters, and were a heavy threat.
autumn sorrel
And when they did know aboht it
And when they know about it, “neat, double the torpedo watchers”
tight wolf
interesting how you can be 'captured' by allied nations
i mean it was russia
flat copper
or the soviets just said fuck it and let em go
One was. But yeah they let him go
manic latch
interesting how you can be 'captured' by allied nations
Well Soviets were natural vs Japanese
deep apex
The Soviets then later staged their escape near the Iranian border which allowed the crew to get the British embassy in Iran without the Soviets appearing to have broken the neutrality agreement with Japan
tight wolf
russia didnt really want to ruin its relations against japan
desert agate
interesting how you can be 'captured' by allied nations
rescued by the peoples government 
flat copper
The Soviets then later staged their escape near the Iranian border which allowed...
Pretty much
manic latch
Yes Russia didn't want second front with Japan
tight wolf
not on good terms>war
manic latch
Not after the Russo Japanese war
They still had neutrality agreement however
Until 1944
eternal veldt
Yes, until broken in Aug 1945
eternal veldt
And often misleadingly cited as the sole reason for Japanese capitulation
maiden citrus
yeah like wasn't it like a couple weeks before war end which is like
participating star
tough quail
god can we not do this
manic latch
participating star
Manchuria was taken tho, I think that deserves star
desert agate
(my least favourite time)
eternal veldt
Understood, nuking Darwin now
shrewd pecan
I just got done with the barbiehimer double feature
deep apex
I am not going into that
flat copper
god can we not do this
Do what? I’m lost atm.
manic latch
<:GarfTrollge:902951789924585513> I just got done with the barbiehimer double fe...
Did you said double feature
desert agate
Understood, nuking Darwin now
good riddance
eternal veldt
Yea, lets not
desert agate
also Japan is way ahead of you
tough quail
the japanese capitulation circlejerkery
autumn sorrel
(my least favourite time)
Let’s just say, there are multiple reason lead to their surrender and not a singular one
flat copper
the japanese capitulation circlejerkery
Ah. Yeah that’s a touchy subject.
maiden citrus
I mean, it's very well laid out, even jaba has a huge doc on it
eternal veldt
I only mentioned in passing, and lets be honest
Nuke will be a popular subject these few weeks
deep apex
We're not talking about it