history

[desert agate]

based

blessed

[desert agate]

many thanks silver i will make great use of these in my shenaniganry

[eternal veldt]

Knew you'd like it

[desert agate]

id note that while reviews of these guns were generally quite positive from the crews, im unsure if this is objective praise of the weapons or the crews being happy about having any AA defences at all, due to the lack of and quality of other available weapons

also they do not appear on any ships logs whatsoever due to the understandably shaky legality involved in bribing warehouse guards in Alexandria

[maiden citrus]

We do a little tomfoolery

[thorn trail]

So with IJN Shimanto announced, what blueprint design did she come from?

[desert agate]

check the pins

[thorn trail]

Oh the document is updated now

Thanks

[warm finch]

The X-32 lost in its only purpose but he still had a good time doing it. Be like the X-32.

[maiden citrus]

Chonker

How cute

[autumn sorrel]

Maintenance on SU-22

https://twitter.com/annquann/status/1677182619723890688?s=46&t=VmBPf9V3wtTffwschA-ygw

Lee Ann Quann (@AnnQuann)

"Swing wing"

Personnel from Vietnam People Air Force performing maintenance on the Su-22 "Fitter" fleet (M4 and UM3K). Designed to be fighter-bomber, Fitter is one of the oldest types of aircraft of the Air Force so each airframe requires a lot of attention.

Likes

235

▶ Play video

Twitter · Jul 7, 2023, 5:07 AM

[severe star]

I strive to be

[olive olive]

I guess here is a good spot to post this

I recently returned from a cruise over the Baltic and found myself touring the German Naval Memorial at Laboe while docked in Kiel

Saw one of the only pieces of Prinz Eugen that made it back home to Germany, one of her screws salvaged after she was used as target practice at Bikini Atoll

[severe star]

I wanna go there some day

Just like 3 states away/across

[olive olive]

Oh nice, if I may say you have a lovely country to visit my friend

[severe star]

I am German lol

[desert agate]

i think you misunderstood the compliment

[olive olive]

I figured, American here but your people were as welcoming as the Swedes and that says a lot lol

[severe star]

Brainfart

[desert agate]

gotta get myself back to europe one day

probs not till after i do asia and america though

[olive olive]

Heck the DGB members tried helping me get a job before I laughed and said I’m a foreign national lol

Would love to go back though, I chickened out from the 12 hour round trip tour into Berlin and back

Also got to go on U-995 while in Laboe, and forgot the song from Das Boot lol

Also they stripped out all but one of the guide rails for torpedos and used it to make the fence facing the beach there on the ride side of the exterior, so that was pretty neat I’d say

Turns out I do have a good picture of it

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_60vgh45DI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FNoQUS3wWM

[manic latch]

It's using new NK-32-02 engine yes

But oxide only happens when she is taking flight

It's likely done to give more power to engines by making more heat

So she can still use it when she needs to

[warm finch]

No, it's actually from insufficient coal combustion, something with the engine fan blades being too small iirc

[manic latch]

Then we will also see it in air no?

But it always happens on take off

[near raptor]

I noticed that of the 6 ordered H-Class, only 2 were ever officially cancelled. Was Germany intending to build the remaining 4 BBs?

And does that technically mean that modern Germany has 4 pending BB orders that are never going to actually happen

[strong plank]

No

[manic latch]

2 laid down*

You need to make ships in batches

If you don't have space

[manic latch]

Because you can only cancel laid down ones

Since planned doesn't exist yet

[near raptor]

Makes sense

[manic latch]

Hell it should be 6

By the same logic since H class was cancelled as general later

[strong plank]

that and Germany didn’t have a navy between 45-56

[manic latch]

Adolf also lost trust on capital ships after sinking of Bismarck

[manic latch]

Latest modernization of Tu-22M3M, also use NK-32 engines of Tu-160, but this orange color still only appears when taking off. So it's gotta be related to that stage

"The engine is an air pump and can only process a certain amount of mass  airflow. By using"nitrous" and adding more fuel to match the extra Oxygen available you get more HEAT = more power. Rich mixtures Produce a Yellow-red torching exhaust due to unburned Carbon .The Hydrogen is burned preferentially as it's more chemically active. and the carbon particles incandesce  or sometimes form visible soot"

[remote monolith]

and then beginning to openly loath the navy after Barents Sea

at least, the surface part

[manic latch]

His proposal was scrapping all the capital ships and using their cannons to defend western coasts etc

[strong plank]

begins war before the navy is ready
gets upset when the navy can’t magically delete the Royal Navy

truly a strategic genius

[manic latch]

He also made a promise to KMS war won't happen till 1945

Z plan was for 1948

[deep apex]

Dawg tf was he gon pay them workers with?

Fuckin beer?

[remote monolith]

it's not really them being unable to defeat the RN that pissed him off tbf, it's that they were just spectacularly incompetent in Barents Sea and made Hitler looked like an idiot in front of the general staff because he got told the engagement was a success

[manic latch]

Hitler, however, was very excited and demanded that six H-class battleships be completed by 1944, saying, "If I can build the Third Reich in six years, why can't the Navy build six ships in six years."

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/navalnewscom/status/1677247005108609029

Naval News (@navalnewscom)

#LCSski The Russian Ministry of Defence is cancelling the production of Project 20386 stealth corvettes, often referred as Russia's own Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) 🇷🇺 Story by @TayfunOzberk
https://t.co/cFl8bc1rxv

Likes

129

Twitter · Jul 7, 2023, 9:23 AM

[manic latch]

Half true, it's going under redesign

[deep apex]

Least delusional corporal

[remote monolith]

just shove more MEFO bills in their asses

[manic latch]

Current design is seen as too complicated for mass production, or else hull, gas turbine, superstructure is already build

[manic latch]

Scharnhorst did take a year to be build tbh

Commission takes long time

And fitting out

So I'm not sure if Hitler speaks of launching them or finishing them

[remote monolith]

it was a bit of a vague promise, potentially to keep Hitler out of being accused of lying

in any case he knew full wll the supposed resources like steel promised to Raeder was already allocated elsewhere

[manic latch]

As for name story

"I think it is very amazing that people like Ulrich von Hutten and Gottfried von Berlichingen thought beyond their time and were so progressive in their ideas, and it is a pity that in their struggle they did not have a strong and definite doctrine, which would give them the necessary moral impulse and steadfastness in their principles.

However, their completely German worldview entitles them to be worthy of the respect of the German people. Therefore, I have a suggestion that ships of the line or other large warships currently under construction should be named after them.
After people like Berlichingen, on the other hand, you can name as many ships as you like; his popularity among the people is such that if any number of ships bearing his name are successfully sunk, the christening of a new ship of the same name will always be greeted with applause."

Hitler, 1942

[manic latch]

Thus we get the names of Berlichingen and Hutten as proposal

Buuut

A year later he will do 180 turn

"Previously, I planned to build the most powerful battleship squadron in the world and intended to name 2 of them Hutten and Berlichingen . Now I am very pleased that I abandoned this idea.

If we had such a squadron, then we would have a moral obligation to use it. What is the practical application for it today? She would be destined to play the role of "the last of the knights."
The development of weapons these days is so rapid that now the "infantry of the seas" is of paramount importance. Apart from submarines, our biggest need is for small ships: powerful corvettes, destroyers, etc. - these are the classes that lead the main fight.
Today, the Japanese have the most powerful battle fleet in the world, but it is very difficult for them to use it for its intended purpose. For them, the biggest danger comes from the air. Remember Bismarck ."

[manic latch]

So Hitler already knows the domination of naval air power, and more important focus on smaller ships and submarines for German navy by 1943

So he is really unrelated to do whole H-40 and others

[warm finch]

Insufficient fuel combustion that only happens during low speeds. Read up on it it's actually quite interesting how the problem came to be

[near raptor]

Scrapping Tirpitz for raw metal to put into U-Boats or Tanks probably would’ve been better than letting her be a bombing target forever.

[manic latch]

Tirpitz was hurting convoys and RN by existing where she is however

But i get your point

[warm finch]

There's a lot of sensible things the 3rd reich could've/should've done but just kinda didn't.

[manic latch]

Hmm from what i find

It is worth mentioning that, after using the new NK-32-02 engine, the “orange smoke” of the Tu-160M at take-off seemed to have been resolved. The cause of this phenomenon is due to the NK-32 engine emitting too much nitrogen oxide when operating at low altitude, seriously affecting the life of the engine.

[warm finch]

Then it is fixed? Exquisite! Next thing they do is make more than 8 of the things.

[manic latch]

16 will be upgrades from existing ones

Rest will be build from 0

upgrading of 16 existing aircraft.  In January 2022, the first serial-built TU-160M made a test flight,  with two planned for delivery in 2022  from 10 on order.

Yeah dont see orange here

I forgot how strong her engines are. Afterburning thrust: 25 000 kgf (55,000 lbf, 245 kN)

Likely the strongest jet engine thrust on a warplane

[manic latch]

Abrams I always preffered

Shame US didn't choose to go with it

[shrewd pecan]

L/55 abrams

no real point

increased chamber pressure of the M256 combined with DU performance

[manic latch]

Leo2 thinks otherwise but I get differences

[shrewd pecan]

the US can squeeze extra penetration due to the modifications made to the L/44 for US service

throw in the issues with stabilization and others the L/55 equipped Abrams had

[warm finch]

Isn't that why the british went with rifled guns? Something with them being less expensive to upkeep/replace?

[shrewd pecan]

the Brits wanted HESH rounds

and something that could use their ammo stocks from the chally 1

[manic latch]

Smooth is bad for HESH

[shrewd pecan]

you can't use HESH in smoothbores

[manic latch]

And now British can't build rifled guns anymore

So they will use Germans barrels for Chal 3

[shrewd pecan]

also the L30 is still a 55 caliber gun

[warm finch]

Don't fix it if it ain't broke

[shrewd pecan]

one day

[warm finch]

On an off-note why do the Russians take pride in their autoloaders again?

[shrewd pecan]

less crew, lower profile and lower weight inexchange for survivability

[warm finch]

Oh so it's the old T-34 debate with some particulars changed?

Niche.

[manic latch]

T34 autloader?

What

[shrewd pecan]

????

[warm finch]

No

Whenever someone debates about the T-34 they make sure to point out the sloped armour as some kind of gift from the tank design omnissiah and often forgot that it severely reduced the space inside the tank.

[shrewd pecan]

almost everyone used slope armor in their tank designs

only departure of the T-34 was the slopped sides

[humble mulch]

Yeah literally

[manic latch]

Most tanks have slope armor

Except Tiger 1, and panzers

[shrewd pecan]

the slopped sides caused the internal volume issues

[warm finch]

That is what they point out.

[humble mulch]

Everyone came to the same conclusion that sloped armor is pretty good

[manic latch]

Who is they

[warm finch]

Been inside one, cramped as hell.

[shrewd pecan]

no usually they inaccurately point to the T-34 inventing slope armor when it didn't

[warm finch]

Saw both actually.

[humble mulch]

Yeah lol
Or like production numbers, and barrel depression or something

[shrewd pecan]

the T-34 was a imperfect design that was stuck with due to wartime requirements

[warm finch]

Correct.

[shrewd pecan]

with plenty of benefits and drawbacks

[strong plank]

Tato you’ll have to remind me in like a month

I’ve still got an ASB report on future tank design studies I need to read through

[warm finch]

Is the common consensus still that it wasn't great but won the war?

[strong plank]

It’s not classified or anything so I should be able to share it here

Would just be a pain in the ass to scan

[shrewd pecan]

its ok I can be trusted with classified documents

[strong plank]

I don’t think they post their stuff online

Lol

[manic latch]

It was forced into war before being fixed

[shrewd pecan]

the second they were able to actually move onto new designs they deleted the slope sides

[manic latch]

T-34M was under works

[humble mulch]

Yeah like the Soviets made a fuck ton of them and then did an upgraded model

But also still made like 30 other tank designs after it

And we’re able to slowly phase out the older tanks

[manic latch]

T-44 yeah

[warm finch]

Yeah that's what I said without getting into the specifics?

[humble mulch]

Not really

[warm finch]

I mean, we all atleast watched the lazerpig video right? Or saw that one photo of an early T-34 carrying an extra transmission?

[manic latch]

Ah

Lazerpig

Fucking

[humble mulch]

That’s explains it all

[manic latch]

Lazerpig

[humble mulch]

[manic latch]

Guy is a bane of all historical existence

Holy hell man

People repeat what he says

[humble mulch]

Lazerpig is a dogshit source for info

End of discussion

Like i don’t quote Axisforums

Unless they literally are giving me a source

[strong plank]

Oh wait nvm lol

[manic latch]

Here is 5 Page reddit article on T-34 countering claims of T-34 of Lazer
https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/10mhuvv/the_t34_is_not_as_bad_as_you_think_it_is_part_15/

[subtle prawn]

So besides the incorrect thing about the T-14's engine being WW2 German-derived, what else did he say? Don't want to touch his video

[strong plank]

The whole report is online already

[humble mulch]

It’s literally a drunk dude screaming about topics

[strong plank]

oi Tato

https://asb.army.mil/Portals/105/Documents/2010s/2019 A NGAAS REPORT Compressed.pdf?ver=_Ps3LRHyet3YWATNNgs9lw%3D%3D

[shrewd pecan]

HAND IT HERE!

[humble mulch]

Yep I believe horse or Hit has sent me this

[manic latch]

@subtle prawn here

[shrewd pecan]

https://tenor.com/view/virtual-insanity-virtual-insanity-template-walking-dancing-rearranging-furnitures-gif-27710286

[humble mulch]

Cause I didn’t know the dude was full of shit

I watched it too

[strong plank]

142 pages of ASB goodness

[humble mulch]

And was like bro the ROMANIANS loved the fucking thing it cannot be that bad

Fuckers literally wanted to copy it 1:1

[manic latch]

Pick Soviet/Russian vehicles or a generally disliked vehicle easy to bully (A-10 etc)

Do absurd claims while giving half truths

Get millions of views

[humble mulch]

Yeah

Feed into views and faction wanking

[strong plank]

Nah the A-10 one is fairly accurate iirc

it just steals from spookston

[shrewd pecan]

"In executing its research plan, the study team addressed most of these questions. For example,
there are many systems and munitions in the U.S. inventory capable of destroying adversary
tanks, such as missiles, Apache gunships, close air support, anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs),
and artillery fire to name a few. However, the act of destroying targets alone cannot win wars.
Winning wars requires the offensive capability to compel an adversary to yield to the will of the
U.S. In fact, the study steam concluded that historically successful concepts and doctrine at the
tactical and operational levels emphasized combined arms maneuver – the ability to close with
and destroy the adversary over contested terrain while leveraging the full capabilities of the
combined arms team."

[humble mulch]

And that’s another issue with him

Lazerpig at least

[strong plank]

You know I didn’t realize until starting my internship

the military fucking loves PowerPoint

[warm finch]

The sources in his descriptions are not, certain things he gets into are backed up by that. And if you didn't read the rest of the message I meant early war.

[strong plank]

like I think if Microsoft ever went under, the pentagon would consider it causus belli

they use it that much

[manic latch]

Cone makes good point about Lazer's "sources" at end of this video

https://youtu.be/vGE2nRdf4Tw

[humble mulch]

Yeah early war/introduction wise it had teething issues like most other tanks of the time

But like I’m not gonna go rag on the fucking Grant for hours

Cause it’s some weird stop gap

[strong plank]

You mean the Lee?

[humble mulch]

Didn’t the Brits call it the Grant

[manic latch]

Yeah When Soviets building T34 US was building Lee

Sherman service begins in 1942

[strong plank]

grant was a modification iirc

[warm finch]

Yes.

[shrewd pecan]

anyway time to actually read this without shitposting

[humble mulch]

I say Grant cause the Grants had cooler camo

[warm finch]

And them taking their time resulted in severely lower casualties.

[humble mulch]

Ah idk

[manic latch]

Gee I wonder how did US got chance to take their time?

[strong plank]

Yeah like

[humble mulch]

Yeah this is my go to comparison

[strong plank]

I’m sure the Soviets would’ve taken their time if they could

[humble mulch]

Lmao

[manic latch]

Not like there is an ocean between right

[humble mulch]

How many trucks did the Soviets lose again

And trains?

[manic latch]

In first stages of Barbarossa its around 300-400k trucks

[humble mulch]

Their entire logistics system got round house locked and everything started getting bombed

So like I can’t fault the tank itself you know

[tough quail]

and allowed them to get tips from the soviets themselves

[manic latch]

Yeah Sherman also got war experince study

[humble mulch]

Yeah lmao

[tough quail]

lets not pretend the t-34 and kv-1s didnt jumpstart us tank development

[humble mulch]

Sherman’s just cheated

[shrewd pecan]

the Soviets were caught in the middle of a massive modernization and expansion of the Red Army with much of the Red Army either undertrained or underequipped by the time the Germans invaded

[tough quail]

the pershing is literally born of them

[warm finch]

... the Americans were in the war for a few months shorter than the soviets and were the ones to end the resistance from Tokyo.

[humble mulch]

100%

[warm finch]

Don't hate the player...

[manic latch]

Ok, which American city is invaded?

Tell me

What regions did US lost

[humble mulch]

We did have islands taken

[manic latch]

What factories did US lost

[humble mulch]

Wake namely

[manic latch]

How many factories US had to relocate?

[warm finch]

None. Allowed them to blurt out better, more diverse equipment at a similar/faster pace

[strong plank]

The ability to not have to worry about your factories getting bombed works wonders for your ability to design and produce equipment

[humble mulch]

Who would have thought

[tough quail]

the us didn't really start seeing a lot of tank combat until about a year after barbarossa anyway

[humble mulch]

Horse what tank influenced the Stuart?

Or was that a true American design?

[maiden citrus]

stuart mentioned

[humble mulch]

Cause I know the US said no to the BT-7 dude and that’s also a light tank

[manic latch]

M2

[strong plank]

I love that the Stuart both is and isn’t a tank by technicality

[manic latch]

Observing events in Europe and Asia during World War II, American tank designers realized that the Light Tank M2 was becoming obsolete and set about improving it.

[humble mulch]

From around the Samish time

Am i see

[manic latch]

So Stuart is well from M2

[humble mulch]

Ww1 btw

[strong plank]

Not A Tank™️ colorized

[maiden citrus]

https://tenor.com/view/war-thunder-spinning-spin-stuart-gif-25520275

[strong plank]

(By US doctrine, tanks belonged to the infantry. So while the cavalry did use Stuarts, they weren’t called tanks while in this role)

[warm finch]

They did however get the chance to improve their designs through the experience of others. Advantage of playing your hand at the right moment

[strong plank]

Yeah imma be real with you

[manic latch]

Advantage of your hand not being forced*

[strong plank]

I don’t see how this fits the whole “Why didn’t the Soviets do better” argument you’re going for

[warm finch]

... that's what Iam going for?

I asked if the T-34 was still seen as "could've been better, did its job"

[humble mulch]

Well you questioned why people liked current Russian auto loaders, and then compared to people overhyping the T-34 cause of its side armor

So your tone has already be set as

“Lol fuck Russian stuff “

[warm finch]

what was that about arguing in bad faith

[manic latch]

https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.php?armor_id=1167

[warm finch]

On the brink of being better then?

[humble mulch]

No we’re all just talking about how Soviets got kinda fucked as an explanation on why the T-34 is this way cause you told us you watched a lazerpig video

Yeah it’s not like hostile or anything
We’re just talking

[manic latch]

T-34M - This unit was a prototype (A-43) with improved armor, hexagonal three-man turret, torsion bar suspension, and increased fuel and ammunition storage. Five hulls were built, but development was abandoned when the war broke out.

[humble mulch]

There’s no bait bullshit so you’re fine but if you need a recommendation for sources and shot feel free to ask

[strong plank]

I still need to parse through the whole thing, I’m curious about how it relates to AbramsX

like obv it’s a demonstrator

[shrewd pecan]

I'd point that out

[humble mulch]

Cause stuff like laser pig is just gonna keep arguments going cause he’s not a good source

[shrewd pecan]

but I don't feel like eating another warn regarding briefly mentioning Ukraine

[humble mulch]

[warm finch]

You mean how you thought I was talking about late war but was talking about early war where many of his statements indeed applied?

[strong plank]

I’ll give it a read through after work

I knew I should’ve brought the physical copy with me to Hawai’i

[warm finch]

Then alright I take it

[tough quail]

i mean im not gonna pretend the T-34 was bad anyway

[shrewd pecan]

the rest of the mod team beyond teahehaha regarding this chat have been either tone death or bafflingly stupid when it comes to multiple subjects

[humble mulch]

His early war statements on Russian quality and production are because of the whole, getting absolutely fucked up out of no where. But he presents them as Soviets just being dogshit

[tough quail]

it's still either the second best or the best medium (so best in general) of the war

[humble mulch]

And that’s the problem

[tough quail]

just depends on what your priorities are

[humble mulch]

Like go read the Reddit thing Kremlin posted on it

You’ll see in specific which claims are bullshit and any other details

[warm finch]

I speedread it and Iam slightly impressed someone has the time for these...

[humble mulch]

Yee, fuck i still have to do my Romanian T-34s

[warm finch]

Presents them as such? Yes. But the armour cracking for example was indeed an issue that I've known about before watching the video. Hell you can see it on some photos too!

[manic latch]

"Someone has time for these"

"Watches Lazerpig video"

[humble mulch]

Armor cracking is an across the board for tanks iirc?

Like fuck I’ve seen dozens of cracked panzers

[tough quail]

also it's probably worth noting the us didn't even use the actual best Sherman variants

[humble mulch]

It’s hard to make metal right when you are being bombed

[humble mulch]

Fr bro

[warm finch]

I watched it in like 4 segments over a week.

[humble mulch]

The Canadians did

[tough quail]

sorry there will be no forgiveness for gasoline tanks

[humble mulch]

Skink is my favorite

[manic latch]

It's about armor manufacturing yes, it reaches to breaking point for Germany in 1944 where Tigers get whole holes from high calibers because they are out of certain material that used to keep armor strong

[humble mulch]

Yeah, Germany iirc would super heat their metal to much which iirc played into it too

[warm finch]

Yes but it usually spells from poor casting quality when it happens to a non-exploded tank.

[tough quail]

I don't even mean the weird variants I mean just only exporting M4A2s (or 3s I keep forgetting which one is diesel)

[shrewd pecan]

M4A2 was

[humble mulch]

Yes but again

They were at war and their own factories were being bombed

[warm finch]

Personally prefer the M-51. Small man with a big gun lol

[manic latch]

122mm HE on Tiger 2's 150mm plate. Because they lacked that material I forget the name. It would just crumble in

[humble mulch]

British firefly is also a great one

[humble mulch]

Chromium?

Or tungsten

[warm finch]

That explains it, still doesn't make it a better tank. I do understand the tank had production issues from the whole "at war and needing solutions quick" situation

[humble mulch]

Which hoi4 metal was Germany missing

[humble mulch]

Yeah it doesn’t make it better, iirc that type of shit are soft issues/factors

[manic latch]

manganese or chromium

[humble mulch]

Just depends on which factory a tank is from

For like armor quality issues

[manic latch]

Better tank to what. Who are you defending here

[humble mulch]

And well most fucking t-34 issues were factory dependent I feel

[warm finch]

But one thing that I know is correct from the video is that most museum T-34s were infact made post-war

[warm finch]

Better tank to itself? The sentiment I keep repeating is "could've been better, did its job" remember?

[manic latch]

Better tank to itself

I see

[tough quail]

you could say that about literally every tank of the war

they all had asinine flaws

[manic latch]

All tanks get upgrades ye

[humble mulch]

Ok it would be like if someone came in here calling Sherman’s Death traps

[maiden citrus]

the stuart was perfect

[humble mulch]

Cause “they catch on fire easily”

[tough quail]

true Stuarts were pretty cute

[humble mulch]

Early Stuart was bad imo, later ones omg they fucking ball

[warm finch]

You could but not to the same level as with the T-34. There aren't many proper design upgrades making the Lee better in all aspects. You might argue "Grant" but sometimes you just need that extra man.

I know it's still the coffin for seven brothers .

[humble mulch]

Yeah T-34 got the T-34-85 upgrade

Which is significantly better imo

Love those ones

[warm finch]

But to make the Lee better would be to replace it with the Sherman.

[manic latch]

85mm was needed to kill Tiger 1 ye. While Sherman's get the 76mm for that

[tough quail]

I really hope you aren't implying a Lee is better than a T-34

[humble mulch]

The Lee can’t get flanked

Therefore it is

Like to see T-34s duel them in Africa

[warm finch]

... Am I? I meant that you can say it about every tank to a level that was not equal with the T-34. As evidenced by the 85mm upgrade.

[tough quail]

...?

Did you miss the part where they upgunned the Sherman too?

[humble mulch]

Do you mean like, contemporary medium tank designs from that time?

[tough quail]

if this guy is about to start arguing jousting rods with me I stg

[humble mulch]

Also no I think he means the T-34 was better

Cause you could upgrade it

[warm finch]

I meant that the potential for all the other tanks was already pretty much filled, the T-34 meanwhile had a lot of room for improvement. The Easy Eight and Firefly were upgrades that principally wouldn't be done to the whole fleet.

[tough quail]

lol what

that's nonsense

[humble mulch]

Yeah Firefly’s were paired with 3 normal Sherman’s iirc

[tough quail]

the Israelis fit a goddamn 4" gun on Sherman's and there were wartime huge up armoring kits

[humble mulch]

Cause they were the anti tiger tank just in case

[tough quail]

the 90mm fit Sherman turret rings with minimum effort

The US just sucked at upgrading the thing in a reasonable timeframe

that's actually a plus I give the T-34

[warm finch]

Sucked or was it that they had no reason to?

[tough quail]

it's much less of a non interchangeable variant nightmare

also they had every reason to, which is why the Jackson and Pershing existed

[shrewd pecan]

@strong plank

[humble mulch]

Did they make flak versions of the t-34?

[tough quail]

Except they made two new tanks when they could have just armed their main fleet with it with ease

Like the soviets wisely did

[humble mulch]

I like hellcats ok

[tough quail]

China did iirc but not the soviets

[humble mulch]

I think that’s it’s fucking name

[tough quail]

Hellcats are cool, yeah

[humble mulch]

The open top tank destroyers they had late war

I’m glad they exist

Cause france had em and they did some baller shit

[warm finch]

Why would they not? Was it not because the upgrade would be unreasonably expensive when the 1 long 76mm to 3 short 75s/76s ordeal worked just fine?

[humble mulch]

Was like 4 hellcats and a bunch of jeeps and they go hunting tanks

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_63_anti-aircraft_gun

[humble mulch]

Jfc

It is just a Russian Wirblewind

Nice to know it exists tho

[humble mulch]

I personally don’t know why they didn’t just give the Sherman’s bigger guns but it’s probably cause we saw everyone else also making bigger anti tank things so we joined the bandwagon too

[tough quail]

you'd actually be able to standardize instead of picking and choosing between the good AP gun and the good HE gun, saving logistical stress and money

[manic latch]

LV-157, Czechoslovakian experimental self propelled rangefinder for LP-157 57 mm SPAAG on a Soviet T-34 tank chassis. It was armed with a quad DShK mount. 1955

[tough quail]

You'd also obsolete the stupid tank destroyers fleet and not have to build them

Saving logistical stress and money

[humble mulch]

Jfc Allah why

[tough quail]

you wouldn't even need a Pershing anymore really

[warm finch]

Do not remind me of our past cringe

[humble mulch]

Yeah fr
But did those help us get all the funny Cold War tanks right?

[tough quail]

but instead they just wasted their time instead of actually standardizing on a larger caliber gun instead of a longer gun

valid

but yeah making ultra long tank guns suck, increasing bore diameter more better

[warm finch]

Yeah but I feel like the reason is probably a lot more than just "we didn't want to" which would probably be the American thing to do...

[shrewd pecan]

OH GREAT HEAVENS

MORE PICTURES OF THE SUPER BRADLEY

[tough quail]

then congrats your design philosophy and your tank fleet is bloated inefficient and shit

Try again

[tough quail]

What beast from Tartarus is this

[shrewd pecan]

the GCV

[humble mulch]

The super Bradley is a great example of how we can be when designing shit

[warm finch]

... okay? What am I supposed to do with someone 50 years before my birth making a bad call

[shrewd pecan]

anyway here's my application for becoming a tank designer

[tough quail]

stop trying to talk shit about other countries better thought out tank fleets

[warm finch]

I didn't talk shit though... you're the one doing that... and what the hell do you mean other countries? Iam literally czech. I would fall into the category of "Soviet" immediately after ww2.

[humble mulch]

Horse stop being mean

But yes you should always have adequate coverage of gun types to deal with shit

Otherwise you end up like fucking Romania using moblized artillery to fight fucking Ferdinands

[warm finch]

I mean... Pershing? Few years later Patton? Iam certainly not the premiere expert but I feel like those two would be sufficient?

[tough quail]

nah im tired of pretending the T-34 was some "good enough" tank and the US were super brain geniuses when it comes to tanks in ww2

[tough quail]

a solid like 40% of the US arsenal was redundant bullshit lol

[humble mulch]

Yes, but in the context of ww2, they could have just upgunned the Sherman and not make those 2 cause the Sherman was capable enough to handle basically all German armor

And did what the UK DID

[shrewd pecan]

to be fair a lot of the US's tank destroyers were a mixture of different doctrine alongside fielding guns the Sherman couldn't

[tough quail]

but they could

[shrewd pecan]

the Sherman couldn't fit the 3 incher without sacrificing crew comfort

and required a entirely new turret for the 76

[tough quail]

the US just wasted time planting them on other bullshit before getting them on shermans

yeah so make the turret

instead of making a different tank

and then you have less Redundant Bullshit™️

[shrewd pecan]

additionally the M18 was the closest to true tank destroyer doctrine the US had

[humble mulch]

I do agree with this

[shrewd pecan]

the M18 fundmentally had a different role and doctrine when compared to the Sherman

[warm finch]

This seems incredibly surface level, why would they do this intentionally?

[tough quail]

i'd be more forgiving if they were at least a bit more bold with it

[shrewd pecan]

it barely had any armor and was open top

[tough quail]

like the su-85 was an enormous jump over the regular T-34 and a smidge more survivable to boot

[warm finch]

Wasn't the main thing that it was fast?

[tough quail]

and when the t-34-85s rolled out they immediately got upgunned to the D-10T

[shrewd pecan]

US tank destroyer doctrine additionally was far more different than everyone elses

[tough quail]

and that thing was basically the fist of god as far as ww2 tank guns go

[shrewd pecan]

US tank destroyers were meant to be held in reserve and be used to rapidly respond to enemy tank breakthroughs

[humble mulch]

Iirc they were pretty fast and had good reverse drives?

Cause yeah they ran around with jeeps

[tough quail]

they weren't really much faster in actuality

because the US gave them incredibly thin tracks so their ability to go at speed on anything but smooth roads was

dogshit

again, redundant

[shrewd pecan]

M18 had a much faster on road speed but wasn't all that much faster off road

in terms of the M10 and M36 they served as cheap methods of getting bigger guns into the field

[manic latch]

Su-100 was God like, and was only done because they already had 85mm on T-34s

[tough quail]

they're compromised tank chassis' built for a doctrine that doesn't really hold up to do nothing a sherman does better

it's ~bloat~

it's a bad idea wasting resources for no real gain

[warm finch]

Are we gonna talk about what happened when they later tried to put the 100 on the T-34?

[tough quail]

also god dont even get me started about how disastrous wolverines were

[manic latch]

Use your brain

[tough quail]

mmyaes handcranked turrets thin enough for kar98s to shoot through at some angles

[manic latch]

Su-100 is different from T-34-100

[tough quail]

for when your crew really needs to commit die

[shrewd pecan]

yet the crews in certain theaters liked it better than the M18

M10 was imperfect but it got the 3 incher into the field and served for the entire war

[warm finch]

I... I know man

[shrewd pecan]

the T-34-100 never saw mass service as well

[tough quail]

and it would've been faster to just... put it on a sherman first

[shrewd pecan]

the sherman

[tough quail]

theres no world where its faster to design an entire new tank than it is to design a new turret

[shrewd pecan]

that was rejected from service

because the 3 incher was too big

and the 76 MM M1 wouldn't show up in service until 43

[tough quail]

yes

thats exactly what im criticizing

[shrewd pecan]

while the M10 was in service

since 42

[tough quail]

there is no reason for it to take that long

[manic latch]

Pick your favorite ISU gun prototype (130mm use Naval gun of Gnevny, Tashkent, Ognveoi, Leningrad class)

These weren't gone through since 122mm and shorter 152mm already began to bully German tanks

[tough quail]

because the US kept wasting time doing stupid shit

instead of just fitting the gun in like normal people

the M10 feels like a panic tank out of sevastopol because they didnt have the time or resources to finish a real medium tank

[humble mulch]

How long did it take the Russians to make the Sherman 76 and the Brits the Sherman firefly?

[tough quail]

but no this was made in complete safety by the largest industrial base on the planet

??????

[humble mulch]

Also when did the jumbo come out? 44?

[tough quail]

i dont get it

[manic latch]

Russian make 76mm?

[shrewd pecan]

I mean the M10 was fundmentally a stopgap

like the M3 was

[humble mulch]

Russians up gunned their Sherman’s too iirc?

[shrewd pecan]

it was intended to be cheap as possible and rapidly replaced once something better came around

[humble mulch]

But it wasn’t a 17 pounder like the firefly, but was it an 85mm gun?

I know they have their own cause I have the model for it but idk the name

[shrewd pecan]

like I get it

the M10 was deeply flawed in many ways

but I don't really see it as a waste of time

[manic latch]

German records concluded that the Soviets tried re-arming some of 75mm version with the F-34 gun, these becoming known as the M4M. This conversion does not appear to have been very widespread because there were ample supplies of US 75mm ammunition, but the Germans captured at least a small number of this version. There is no mentioning in reliable Russian language sources of re-arming Sherman with F-34 gun. Doing something like that would seem to be too much effort for too little result

[tough quail]

nothing wastes time and money like trying to save time and money

[shrewd pecan]

especially when it was more suited to theaters like Italy when compared to the M18

[tough quail]

i dont like the M18 either

the entire TD doctrine was shit

[manic latch]

So Yeah Soviets find it's too time consuming to shange Sherman gun with F-34

[shrewd pecan]

it got the US through the war in Europe

and still has its influence on US attack helicopter doctrine

[tough quail]

by virtue of superior quality control, training and cohesion vs germany

and the fact germany's brain fell out of their head after the panzer 3 anyway

[manic latch]

Fren

[shrewd pecan]

M10s, M18s and M36s managed to do their jobs and then some throughout both the War in Europe and the War in Korea

[warm finch]

Not just shermans Iam afraid.

[shrewd pecan]

while post war I believe it was rightfully done away with once main battle tanks came around

for a WW2 context I don't really think there were better options to get bigger guns in theater within a reasonable amount of time

[humble mulch]

Based love Valentines
Need one for my Aussies models

[tough quail]

i dont understand the thought process where making entirely different tanks is faster than just rehauling a sherman turret

especially since uh

the uk didnt need to do it

[manic latch]

The Matilda, or the “British Mk.2” as it came to be called, received mixed reviews from the Soviets. Its armor, comparable to that of their own KV-1 Heavy Tanks, was much appreciated. One Soviet Matilda crew member claimed his tank received 87 non-penetrating hits. Its general reliability was also highly regarded. At the time, the Matilda and the Valentine were considered to be light tanks and actually fell in between the Soviet definition of Light and Medium tanks. They had less firepower than the Soviet’s medium and heavy Tanks, but more armor than their light tanks. The Matilda certainly didn’t have the speed of a light tank, which Soviet crews were not too happy with.
A major problem with tank, the Soviet crews found, was how ill-suited it was too harsh winter conditions. The tank was designed to operate down to 0 Degrees C, but temperatures in Russian could drop as low as -50 Degrees C. Indeed, even during shipping across the Arctic route, the coolant in the tanks radiators would freeze. Following complaints by the recipients, later tanks were shipped with an antifreeze solution in the radiators

[humble mulch]

And yes that's it, my game calls it the sherman M4A4 (76mm)

[shrewd pecan]

yeah and the US thought the Firefly was unacceptable for US service

[humble mulch]

Why's that?

[tough quail]

the us also thought the td doctrine was acceptable

[shrewd pecan]

crew comfort and ergonomics

[humble mulch]

Lmao

[tough quail]

the us thinking something is right doesn't mean they aren't wrong

[shrewd pecan]

since the firefly was a

[tough quail]

most people who are wrong tend to think they are right, actually!

[shrewd pecan]

ergonomic nightmare

same with the Sherman with the 3 incher

[humble mulch]

Goddamn they didn't have stock Anti freeze when going to Russia

[shrewd pecan]

since you know

[humble mulch]

[shrewd pecan]

people have to actually operate the things you field

[manic latch]

The Matilda’s 2 Pounder (40 mm) gun was also a problem. The Soviets saw it as no improvement over their own 45 mm 20-K tank gun (found on the BT tanks for instance) and were disappointed that it wasn’t equipped with a HE (High-Explosive) round. One attempt to provide a solution was the re-casing of the 40 mm Bofors anti-aircraft rounds but was not successful.
There was a more extensive proposal, however. The Soviet’s turned to one of their best weapons engineers, Vasily Grabin, who came up with a design to introduce a 76 mm anti-tank gun into the Matilda’s turret. This gun was the F-96, a specially designed variant of the ZiS-5. Not only would this have increased the vehicles anti-armor capability, but also granted it an effective High-Explosive round. This project did not go far, however, with just one prototype built.

[tough quail]

so focus on...

making the turret work???

[maiden citrus]

not in wt and wows they don't

also I like how close we got

[shrewd pecan]

which they eventually did with the T23 turret on the sherman hull

[tough quail]

why do you need to invent a stripped down open top sherman first

before you can make a turret that fits the 76mm

you have not explained this

[shrewd pecan]

I mean they had a turret that could fit the 3 inch

[tough quail]

why is there this entirely separate waste of time, money and effort

[shrewd pecan]

it just you know

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Tank_M6

DID NOT WORK

[manic latch]

https://youtu.be/dr6FF_zqGNY

[tough quail]

i dont want to come off as dismissive but like

this genuinely just sounds like a skill issue

[shrewd pecan]

the 3 incher 76 the US had at the start of the war fundmentally did not fit in the Sherman turret without unacceptable compromises to crew ergonomics and comfort

the tank the US had that did have the 3 inch 76 also

did not work

the M1 76 MM that eventually ended up in the Sherman doesn't show up until 43 and doesn't enter service until 44

so

how are you going to get your tank killing anti aircraft gun into a platform in a reasonable amount of time

that doesn't require completely re engineering the Sherman

[manic latch]

Put it sideways

[shrewd pecan]

insert the ergonomics and comfort issues the 17 pounder had in the Firefly

[warm finch]

Didn't it temporarily blind the crew at night in some cases?

[manic latch]

Why crew comfort matters if enemy has higher chance to destroy them otherwise

[tough quail]

i would focus my actual R&D efforts on getting the proper turret/gun combo working and use actual shermans for the interim

and if i have to pick a cramped turret vs an open top, hand cranked unarmored death bus

[shrewd pecan]

which they had by 44 with the 76 Shermans

[maiden citrus]

because again people have to actually use your things

[tough quail]

i would take the cramped sherman

[shrewd pecan]

the crews wouldn't take the cramp shermans

[tough quail]

because im less likely to fucking die from a potato masher

[shrewd pecan]

nor would armored force

[tough quail]

or a kar98

[shrewd pecan]

the 3 inch equipped Sherman was approved by ordnance and denied by armored force

[tough quail]

then overrule them or make them take regular shermans

[maiden citrus]

lol

[tough quail]

not waste time and money on a rolling coffin

[shrewd pecan]

they took regular Shermans

[tough quail]

so there you go

[shrewd pecan]

the M10s served a fundmentally different doctrine and role

[tough quail]

that doctrine was also stupid

[manic latch]

Why M10 was open top

[shrewd pecan]

how are you fitting the 3 inch 76 gun

[tough quail]

so u could see better 👁️

[shrewd pecan]

in anything else

[manic latch]

So it's still too large

[shrewd pecan]

again I am not calling the M10 perfect or even good

it was a imperfect design that was "good enough" for 1942/43 US

you were not suppose to be using a M10 in the same way as a Sherman

[spring briar]

When the Dreyse needle gun’s breech got clogged up by burnt paper residue, bees wax and cartridge glue, the mixture would stink and the germans called it “Papierschleim”

Literally

Paper slime

Terrific

The Dreyse also has the trajectory of a friggin baseball

[warm finch]

Wasn't the lack of a modern rifle the reason for German losses during the Franco-Prussian war?

[spring briar]

In duels between French and Prussian rifle infantry, the French decisively won

[warm finch]

Yes, it was only through a complete overhaul of infantry tactics the germans won, correct?

[spring briar]

Artillery superiority

And just massive logistical advantage

[warm finch]

Touche.

[spring briar]

@tough quail out of these, which are you?

[tough quail]

4 on the bottom row

[spring briar]

Ball

[manic latch]

Bottom left

[spring briar]

Model 1847 Spitzkugel

[grave ravine]

@tough quail @manic latch if you want to learn about US Tank Destroyers and what led to them, I would suggest watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ho8TU_JpoI

[tough quail]

oh I understand the whole genesis, I'm just criticizing it for being an awful doctrine

[manic latch]

Not my type of doctrine

I prefer armor + big guns at cost of speed and weight

German/Soviet style

Tho Soviet ones weren't German level heavy

[spring briar]

I prefer

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-37

[manic latch]

I hate this thing

[spring briar]

Overwhelming firepower

[manic latch]

But it doesn't exist anymore unlike tanks

[spring briar]

It exists in new forms

[manic latch]

Rich

[spring briar]

Yes

[manic latch]

Gib my ISU-130

[spring briar]

Big gun

[manic latch]

Naval 130mm

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/railgun-railgun-fire-railgun-firing-non-explosive-ballistics-high-kinetic-energy-gif-19417023

[spring briar]

Railgun…

🤢

[manic latch]

Yeah it sucks

I travel faster when Soyuz asks me for a hug

[spring briar]

[maiden citrus]

armor and firepower yis

[spring briar]

Makaaaa

[maiden citrus]

[manic latch]

Boom

[tough quail]

reminder, the superior american tank destroyer

[spring briar]

Dreyse after 15 ish shots

https://tenor.com/view/smoky-face-gif-13740148

[tough quail]

accurate

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2023/07/07/first-australian-sailors-graduate-from-nuclear-power-school-set-to-serve-on-u-s-navy-subs-in-hawaii

[manic latch]

Rules and consequences

Wonder if Australia will be lucky with this

[ivory ridge]

or what

[manic latch]

Consequences

[ivory ridge]

yeah

what

[manic latch]

Hmm worst case would be losing the submarines

Second worst would be not getting them for decades or at all

[ivory ridge]

that dont sound like consequences

you meant somethine else

[manic latch]

No this was their choice

They sacrificed France deal for this

While not having any experince with nuclear plants etc

[grave ravine]

It made some sense at the time, its just the US only encountered massed armored thrusts like twice (and both times TD units did play a key role in halting them) and neither were at the scale feared either

[tough quail]

it didn't when you realize a regular sherman could just handle that instead

👁️

[grave ravine]

Not necessarily, first case Shermans werent even around yet

and second case the greater strategic mobility of TDs allowed them to respond faster than armored forces, and they helped plug the line for a couple days

And due to the fact that TD units were specialized AT units, they did actually perform significantly better in tank on tank combat than standard Sherman units outside of the specs of their vehicles

[manic latch]

Psst Drom

Why A4 was created

[grave ravine]

In the end I agree that it probably wasn't worth the investment

[manic latch]

Sherman A4 give nightmares to Soviet maintenance

A2 was good one

[grave ravine]

but it was something that made sense in the context it was developed

and was not an abject failure like some make it out to be

There were not enough engines

would have been great to have all diesels and GAAs

but it was not to be

There were factories that could be easily modified to make the multibank

and well a tank with the multibank is better than no tank at all

and better than the radial too lol

[tough quail]

?

unless im remembering something very wrong shermans saw combat before M10s

[grave ravine]

At Kasserine they were still driving around in Lees

but the M3 GMCs were very useful

[tough quail]

..yeah thats a totally different thing

[grave ravine]

Oh I was talking TDs generally

though later in the Africa campaign the M10s would prove really useful in battles like El Guettar

And they were well liked in Italy

[tough quail]

like if we're talking about guns strapped onto half tracks those are obviously useful

the m10-m36 line is redundant garbage

[grave ravine]

Eh, they do the same things, provide a more strategically mobile chassis with better visibility than contemporary tanks

and M10 and M36 had the added benefit of actually arriving before tanks with equivalent firepower

[tough quail]

they're not more strategically mobile except kind of sort of hellcats

thats a myth

[grave ravine]

M10 is about 5t lighter

has a larger operational range

these things matter

[tough quail]

which isn't really any substantial breakpoint for transport and iirc the actual operational range goes to shit on anything offroad because their terrain crossing ability is significantly worse

and at the best of times it's like a 40-50mile difference tops

[grave ravine]

I mean strategic mobility is all about road performance

and 40-50 miles is a 33% increase in range

[tough quail]

it also goes back to even with a sherman on everything after the M10 (including the M10A1)

[manic latch]

Imagine a world where US was stuck building M3s

[grave ravine]

WDYM?

[manic latch]

🍿

[tough quail]

so tl;dr you get 5 tons less weight and higher operational range on road (for one variant) at the cost offff

worse offroad performance
virtually unprotected to anything bigger than rifle caliber
defenseless from grenades or god forbid artillery fragments
opens up an entire extra logistics train and production queue to field these at all

when you could just not

[tough quail]

m10a1s/m18s/m36s have lower operational range

[grave ravine]

Yeah, later Shermans also have lower operational range than early ones

[manic latch]

Heavier

[grave ravine]

I mean you also get greater crew visibility and a more powerful gun than contemporary tanks

and the proof is clear enough, TD units were very good at killing tanks

[tough quail]

because the us army was better trained and more cohesive than the heer

a sherman would have sufficed

[grave ravine]

TD units outperformed regular armored units in tank v tank combat

[tough quail]

or hell even the 10000 black half tracks of allah lol

[fresh nest]

Yes

[grave ravine]

That being said, M18 was the ideal tank destroyer

but crews actually frequently liked M10 better because it was a bit better protected

but the thing is M10 was a stopgap measure

[manic latch]

Bismarck: Try it alone

[grave ravine]

and it was one that clearly did well enough in combat

[tough quail]

why would you say the M18 is

[grave ravine]

Per US doctrine it was ideal

significantly better tactical and strategic mobility

[fresh nest]

Best part is, piorun won the 1v1 through the sheer number of gigachads that were on board

[manic latch]

What

[fresh nest]

Yeah

[tough quail]

it had no real tactical mobility advantage because the tracks were shit

[fresh nest]

Piorun had a 1 hour long gunfight with the Bismarck and only retreated when forced to due to fuel

[tough quail]

leave it to the US to go

mmm mmyaes

[fresh nest]

And task force H telling her to stop

[tough quail]

unarmored turbo fast speed tank

[manic latch]

So how many times Bismarck shoot at her

[grave ravine]

M18s were noted to be more mobile in combat

[fresh nest]

Yes

[tough quail]

lets give it the wimpiest tracks known to man so its as slow as everything else

[fresh nest]

Bismarck was firing literally everything at her and missed everything

[grave ravine]

and again they clearly performed well against German armor

better than regular armored units

[fresh nest]

Piorun got so close the crew could exchange insults with each other

[grave ravine]

Dont ignore the rest of Vian's destroyers

[tough quail]

it's almost like the guys in there were trained to fight tanks specifically and thats the root cause, not that the tank design was good

[manic latch]

@eternal veldt can you confirm this fren

Silver is our KMS expert

[ivory ridge]

Piorun didnt win shit please stop romanticizing an act that nearly fucked over the entire operation and impeded part of the plan

[fresh nest]

Nah, piorun doesn't need torpedoes, just a couple musical instruments and some service pistols 😂🤣

[manic latch]

Derp you are making a frog into a dragon

[grave ravine]

The greater visibility probably helped somewhat

[tough quail]

[ivory ridge]

Piorun's action literally stopped the brits from doing a torpedo run with the destroyers

[grave ravine]

but once again we come back to the strategic mobility point

[tough quail]

stop it

these tanks are shit

[grave ravine]

they arent tanks tho

[tough quail]

nobody needed goompy cut down open top tanks with guns you could fit on a normal sherman

[shrewd pecan]

yeah but here's the issue

[grave ravine]

find me a sherman with the 3" lol

[shrewd pecan]

the guns couldn't be

[manic latch]

My biggest criticism on American ww2 tanks are indeed track width ngl

[grave ravine]

gun was fucking massive

[tough quail]

damn its weird how they managed to put those guns on

almost like R&D worked

[grave ravine]

They didnt

ever

the 3" never was fielded on the Sherman

[shrewd pecan]

the 3 inch gun Sherman did not work

[tough quail]

they reworked the gun

and they also fit the 90mm on

[grave ravine]

It took a year of development

[shrewd pecan]

they made a entirely new gun

[grave ravine]

and advanced metallurgy

[shrewd pecan]

that was a different caliber

from the 3 inch

[fresh nest]

But she did manage to distract and tire the Bismarcks crew to the point to where the swordfish from ark royal and the rest of task force H could unleash hell upon Bismarck with little return fire

[grave ravine]

if you want to wait a year for your new tank destroyers, be my guest

[shrewd pecan]

the 90 MM additionally was in

[grave ravine]

but the army wanted them then

[shrewd pecan]

a Pershing turret on the Sherman hull

[grave ravine]

also the pershing turreted Sherman was incredibly goofy

[manic latch]

What the fuck

[grave ravine]

and also didn't really work well

but was very cool

[tough quail]

i do

because here's the real kicker

the guns didn't even matter 👁️

[grave ravine]

unfortunately they had a war to fight

[tough quail]

germans would just ditch after a regular 75mm slapped their hull anyway

and later in the war it would just kill them from spalling

none of this actually mattered

[fresh nest]

Bismarcks crew was at general quarters for the whole night afterwards, meaning everyone was at battle stations the whole night, with little sleep

[grave ravine]

Thats debatable

[tough quail]

no, it isnt

[shrewd pecan]

should of just stuck with the 37 at that point

[manic latch]

I mean they did had free space to make many Heavy tank prototypes

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/armstrong-made-it-up-gif-25653819

[grave ravine]

I would take the position that by the end of the war even the 76 was inadequate

[manic latch]

Source chief?

[tough quail]

well, no

37mm HE is shite

[grave ravine]

yeah those were actually stupid

[tough quail]

3" and larger caliber is mostly useful for absolutely shitting on infantry and structures

[shrewd pecan]

the only heavy tank prototype that made any form of sense

was the T32

[tough quail]

which is 99% of what a tank does

[grave ravine]

M6 was the biggest piece of garbo known to man

[lime belfry]

Tbf all these gun on tank effectiveness argument is kinda debatable because irl whoever hit first ornshoot first seems to win the engagement

[tough quail]

(further making dedicated TDs stupid)

[grave ravine]

while that seems to have been largely true, high velocity also helps one hit first at range

[tough quail]

like at least the goompy ass soviet and german casemates usually came with an actual significant caliber jump

[grave ravine]

was a big problem in Italy, less so in Europe

[tough quail]

meaning they worked beautifully as assault guns

[manic latch]

How to fix Sherman
-Krem opinion

[tough quail]

an actually universally useful job

[fresh nest]

You wish bud

[lime belfry]

But the Stuggies use the same gun as the Pz IV no ?

[fresh nest]

W I D E B O I

[tough quail]

keyword usually

[lime belfry]

And still one of the best TD of the war

[grave ravine]

you seem to forget that tank destroyers were not tanks

like you can argue the doctrine was silly

[tough quail]

...actually thinking about it for germany it was only really the jagdpanthers and tiger wasnt it

nvm

[grave ravine]

and the army would be inclined to agree with you

but the M10 and M36 were vehicles adequate for the purpose envisioned

[manic latch]

My favorite is SU-152 AKA Beast Hunter. It one shots %90 of tanks it hits, mobile for its size, easy to build, can be used to destroy buildings etc

[lime belfry]

TD is a cool concept when u need something cheaper than a tank but can knock out a tank without having to go on a brawl

[tough quail]

the purpose invisioned was stupid

and if the design purpose sucked

the product sucked

[lime belfry]

In which case it either the gun on that TD outrange the tank and can pen

[manic latch]

Biggest weakness was lack of enough 152mm guns. Thus Su-122

[tough quail]

there's no gacha where saying "well they thought it was a good idea" makes it a good idea

[lime belfry]

Or it just low enough to camouglage and ambush the tank

[tough quail]

also yes they're just tanks

[shrewd pecan]

they aren't

[grave ravine]

we can argue about the success of the TD doctrine

[tough quail]

they have most of the weight and the silhouette of a tank

most of the production cost

[grave ravine]

but arguing they should be judged as tanks is silly

[lime belfry]

So really TD feels like a logical choice for war

[tough quail]

most of the drawbacks

[grave ravine]

since they were not used as tanks

[lime belfry]

I mean if I am on a budget

[tough quail]

but also none of the benefits of being a tank because oops no armor

[manic latch]

Soyuz + 10 different belt armor thickness to give same ammount of protection at angle for 406mm

[lime belfry]

I would make TD sure

[tough quail]

also no powered turret on the m10

its ~shit~

[shrewd pecan]

that definition would throw multiple non tank things as tanks

[lime belfry]

Yeah I mean if tracks plus guns count as tank

[fresh nest]

We still don't know what the exact use of the "comb" on the m4 Sherman was....

[tough quail]

i mean if you want to call it an spg

then its REALLY bad

[shrewd pecan]

I mean

[lime belfry]

Ahhh i see you watch that tank channel as well

[fresh nest]

Yes

[grave ravine]

we do, Chieftain went over it

[tough quail]

indirect fire capability of "no" with a kind of awful HE shell

[shrewd pecan]

when they were used for shelling infantry they didn't actually do all that bad at it

[lime belfry]

The Jackson did well in Indochina

Just saying

And there no enemy tank in Indochina

[tough quail]

well yeah its dragging around a 90mm

[lime belfry]

Let that sink in

[fresh nest]

Hot take just to make people mad: the m3 lee/grant was the best tank of WW2

[grave ravine]

the 3" didn't actually have much worse of a HE shell than the 75

[tough quail]

the 76mm is a goofy high velocity jousting rod

which comes with reduced HE performance vs guns of the same caliber

[lime belfry]

Unironivally true in 1941

[tough quail]

this is why german HE was the worst shit in the universe

[grave ravine]

not really, that got debunked

[lime belfry]

It the best multiple turret tank design

[tough quail]

source: dude trust me

[eternal veldt]

Krem, you know you should be pinging Sirene, not me

[grave ravine]

The 76 traded somewhat reduced blast for somewhat better frag

[manic latch]

IS-3M is an SPG because Israel used it as artillery support

[eternal veldt]

What did I miss

[fresh nest]

Yes

[shrewd pecan]

some weird debate on tank destroyer doctrines and at this point

[fresh nest]

Wouldn't surprise me tbh

[manic latch]

Scroll up but be careful of your mind

[shrewd pecan]

can you make a turreted tank destroyer apparently and still call it a tank destroyer??????

[lime belfry]

Can we just agree Firefly is an actual good TD

[eternal veldt]

Oh god, Piorun myth again

[fresh nest]

Lol

[shrewd pecan]

guns good platform it was smacked on was made far worse due to the gun

[grave ravine]

Yeah firefly was not that great of a vehicle

[lime belfry]

But it looks cool tho

[grave ravine]

This was the real shit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17pdr_SP_Achilles

[lime belfry]

Cooler than whatever the fuck that other 17pdr TD was

The one on reverse

[grave ravine]

oh yeah archer was just goofy

[eternal veldt]

I'll just drop this regarding Piorun, since there is an AFV discussion going on

[fresh nest]

I know I'm gonna piss off someone by saying this, but the T-34 is an absolute shitbox of a tank and should not have been allowed to see combat with the amount of corners cut in the production process

[eternal veldt]

This is Phoenix's work, not mine.

[shrewd pecan]

NOT ANOTHER T-34 DISCUSSION

[tough quail]

oh im not even taking that one

[manic latch]

Are you alt of Mig-15

[grave ravine]

Also Phoenix's work and not mine

[tough quail]

kremlin

shut the fuck up

[eternal veldt]

https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/10mhuvv/the_t34_is_not_as_bad_as_you_think_it_is_part_15/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1

[tough quail]

i will hit you both with an ice pick

[eternal veldt]

Please read this.

[tough quail]

NO SILVER

WE DID THIS EARLIER

[grave ravine]

let this conversation now be over

[eternal veldt]

What, is he a troll?

[shrewd pecan]

Japanese eggs

[tough quail]

no we had a different guy

[manic latch]

We had a guy who watched lazerpig

[manic latch]

I think it's same case again

[eternal veldt]

I smelled lazerpig from Piorun wanking, yes

[grave ravine]

I mean I watch LP cuz he's funny, not to actually learn anything tho

[eternal veldt]

Hence why I instantly linked it to badhistory

[grave ravine]

its like watching pentagon wars

[lime belfry]

T-34 aint that bad in comparison with the doctrine it was made for

[fresh nest]

The post 1945 t-34 was better yes, but during the war, especially in 1941 they were the worst thing you could have

[grave ravine]

its funny even when you know the stuff was wrong

[manic latch]

Derpi; does your info on Pior and T-34 comes from Lazerpig?

[lime belfry]

So ?

U gonna judge a tank based on 1 year ?

That nitpicking mate

[tough quail]

oh god

[lime belfry]

If this was the case then the first 4 gen of the Pz III was dog water

[fresh nest]

Some yes, and I have also looked at some of the information myself

[grave ravine]

If you read the link silver posted, it discusses how the production issues were mainly caused by the disruption of relocating factories to the Urals and were largely solved by late 42

or earlier

[lime belfry]

You see, tank isnt bad because of 1 year

The T-34 was made for like what ? 10 years ?

[manic latch]

"Some"

[grave ravine]

Anyways, on for something totally different, some weird one off swiss cold war TD prototype that I saw today

[lime belfry]

It a decent tank

[tough quail]

unironically sourcing lazerpig

hoo boy

[lime belfry]

Lazerpig is fun when u are on noncredible reddit

Maybe

[eternal veldt]

I wouldnt recommend lazerpig as a source, at least on the case of Piorun.

[grave ravine]

I have been able to find very little about it, but it was a 90mm gun turret on a prototype APC chassis

[tough quail]

NCD should be answered with stoning in general

[shrewd pecan]

the longterm fall of

NCD

[eternal veldt]

As Phoenix wrote, Piorun really just went ahead on her own and got nothing done in return.

38cm shells started landing close, and she had to make smoke and break off.

[shrewd pecan]

Reddit corrupted that place horribly

[lime belfry]

If T-34 was that bad while the American lost a bunch of shit in Korea ?

[fresh nest]

I did see his video on the a-10 recently, he does make some valid points there, granted he was speaking of the a-10a

[humble mulch]

Lmao

[tough quail]

alright im gonna be fair thats not a good argument

like fucking lunge mines worked a few times

that doesnt make them good

[lime belfry]

In the end t-34 was decent

It not godlike but it not dogshit either

[shrewd pecan]

I mean the Shermans managed to outpeform the Pershings in Korea

[tough quail]

it was much more than decent in context of it's contemporaries but i digress

[grave ravine]

yeah LPs videos about the reformers are generally more accurate than his WW2 content, but even then I wouldn't take his word without further verification

[eternal veldt]

T-34 this, T-34 that

Give me T-44

[fresh nest]

T-44 stronk lol

[lime belfry]

T34 Sherman prototype

The real OG

[manic latch]

"Murder is bad"

[eternal veldt]

Pershings just overall suffer from being overweight and weak engine IIRC

[grave ravine]

what a power to weight ratio of 12 hp/t does to a mfer in a mountainous country

[lime belfry]

Centurion was pretty ok in Korea

[eternal veldt]

They look cool though, so rule of cool wins

[grave ravine]

Though Pershing did actually perform better in tank v tank combat, we have already gone over how that isn't the main metric that matters

[shrewd pecan]

sorry but I'm gods greatest M47 patton shill and I will now make a 200 page argument on why the M47 Patton was actually good and not a piece of shit

[manic latch]

IS-2 is one of my fav. She is true underdog and barely any critism

[fresh nest]

I kinda feel bad that the Pershing wasn't exactly able to do much other than arty cause of it's weight compared to the Sherman in Korea

[shrewd pecan]

she's ugly

[tough quail]

well the reload being slow as piss was kind of a pain

[grave ravine]

I saw some today

[shrewd pecan]

it generally surprises me

[manic latch]

But that comes with being same weight as a Panther

[eternal veldt]

IS-2 is...pretty awfully cramped, if I recall?

[tough quail]

anyway im tired of shitting on the us today

[shrewd pecan]

how long the M47 lasted despite being as flawed as it was

[lime belfry]

M48 was shit in Vietnam. Fight me

[tough quail]

this has somehow gotten old even for me

[lime belfry]

M41 the chad