history

[manic latch]

Answer it lad

[severe star]

Bro I was on another server

I'm not gonna waste my time debating every dude who has some issue with me for no apparent reason

I also have other stuff to do

[manic latch]

Yes you don't know the answer

[severe star]

Lmfao ok if that helps you feel better

[maiden citrus]

To
Be
Disposed
Of

[manic latch]

That's why folks you don't claim you are #1 fan of ships if you don't know much of them

Because you might dissapoint people wanting to know more about the ships then asking you for the info

[severe star]

Bro it's literally a boat waifu game

Lmao

[manic latch]

Yes boat

Also why you are laughing so much

[severe star]

Coz you're taking this way too serious and it's hilarious

[manic latch]

Can you check the name of the channel

Yes this channel is more serious compared to general

[severe star]

Yeah but uh, no ones obligated to debate you

It's literally 2am where i am

[manic latch]

Josh you made a false historical claim

That's the problem I was trying to fix

[severe star]

The soviets havent rlly been known for quality exactly have they, given yknow, quantity was their whole doctrine?

But again literally 2am for me I'm not doing this rn lol

[manic latch]

So if US has larger air force than Soviets for example

Do you claim it as

"US does this for quantity over quality"

It doesn't make sense right

[severe star]

The US has and had like ever since WW2 had the biggest Military budget on this planet and also GDP yknow...?

[severe star]

Also ^

[manic latch]

And you also know that Soviets were rather very close to it and even passed it in 80s?

Yup my man you do lack research

Just sleep

[severe star]

Lmao

[manic latch]

Good evening Tato

[manic latch]

[manic latch]

"Bambi vs Godzilla"

[shrewd pecan]

"It's David vs Goliath all over again"

[manic latch]

This is weak

Say something like

"This is possible because of you"

Dont mention taxes but reference it

[shrewd pecan]

ok

that's enough spam

[manic latch]

Frend

[chilly osprey]

Everyone's ready to shit themselves when they see the B-1b has 24x LRASM

But no one's ever ready for when it brings 36

[strong plank]

Man

[strong plank]

The rise of video advertising really robbed us of more of this

[shrewd pecan]

there's a few JSF/F-35s ones in the thread

#1102857408478457916 message

#1102857408478457916 message

#1102857408478457916 message

[strong plank]

[shrewd pecan]

#1102857408478457916 message

#1102857408478457916 message

the best (and only) history thread

[strong plank]

God that goes hard

[runic prairie]

Gaydar

[runic prairie]

The GD/W AIM-152 is mega based.

Engineer does a line of cocaine

“What if we just packed 15-18 missiles on a plane?”

[runic prairie]

Have you seen the ALCM carrier proposal for the B-1?

[shrewd pecan]

I knew it was meant to carry them

[shrewd pecan]

OH

I DIDN'T REALIZE IT WAS MEANT TO CARRY THEM EXTERNALLY

[runic prairie]

Well the normal one could

This was one specifically meant to carry more of them.

The proposed version ditched the variable geometry wing.

[shrewd pecan]

interesting

[runic prairie]

It was meant as a more direct replacement for the B-52.

[shrewd pecan]

the true dream

[runic prairie]

The B-1 radiates pure sex appeal.

Concept art for project “War Breaker”.

[sullen canyon]

Ah yes, missiles that launch missiles

[runic prairie]

WARBREAKER (rad name btw) was a concept for an advanced “Scud Hunt” against a foe such as the USSR/Russia to kill their road-mobile ICBMs, potentially only using conventional weapons.

Counter to the image most of it was actually devoted to sensors and algorithms which first determined where a TEL might be (ruling out certain terrains and other factors) then finding a 1 meter^2 target by means of radar and other sensing equipment.

[manic latch]

https://youtu.be/YBC1Qob27sM

[runic prairie]

https://youtu.be/WyeMyhKE5Yw

AGM-109H TAAM (Tactical Anti-Airfield Missile) based on BGM/RGM/UGM-109 Tomahawk.

[strong plank]

https://youtu.be/iNSHSBziyOo

[somber knoll]

wtf USN. (Ik it's a wartime carricature for a manual but really, three fore turrets with quads...)

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/CollinSLKoh/status/1676229963270467584

Collin Koh 🇸🇬🇺🇦 (@CollinSLKoh)

Japan MoD signed contract with Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) for detailed design of the first new missile defense-optimised Aegis System Equipped Vessel (ASEV) and Japan Marine United (JMU) for the same of second ASEV. All ships planned to enter JMSDF service in 2027-28.

Twitter · Jul 4, 2023, 2:02 PM

[dreamy vector]

noo

[spring briar]

I wish to have seen it

[autumn sorrel]

30x165mm(AO-18) shells

Now I need Krem jumping cat emote

[tribal mortar]

BMP rounds?

[humble mulch]

https://bigthink.com/the-future/ai-translates-cuneiform/

This is cool as fuck

[manic latch]

[manic latch]

https://youtu.be/p7dv_1yJgxU

[strong plank]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/army-fires-tomahawk-missile-from-its-new-typhon-battery-in-major-milestone

[manic latch]

@spring briar 305mm

[spring briar]

Seen like

Hundreds of times

[ivory ridge]

Now youve seen it hundreds+1 time

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

Time to help Sang

@delicate beacon

[halcyon field]

finally some shipbucket enjoyer

[autumn sorrel]

AK-630 CIWS and Kashtan system ammunitions

[warm finch]

As the self proclaimed late-cold war pre-war on terror aviation expert this sentiment, while common, is incorrect.
The USSRs fighters like the MiG-29 and Su-27 were hopelessly outmatched in anything else than a dogfight because of their worse avionics. And even then their flight characteristics favoured slower speeds. Even if we assume the Russians are using post-USSR collapse technology like the Su-30 or the MiG-29SM the russians still lose in any fight that starts without seeing the enemy with ones own eyes.
As for the sentiment that the Russians believe in quantity above quality and the americans viceversa? Correct. The Russians had fewer resources though which resulted in the Americans actually being able to make more of better airframes.

[thorny patio]

So I found a ship that looks freaking weird

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_monitor_Sava

Is this bote?

[spring briar]

Its a monitor

Those usually look weird

Since low freeboard

[maiden citrus]

They’re incredibly based

[spring briar]

Indeed

Especially the European ones

[autumn sorrel]

Wait, American using meter system for ordnance?

[maiden citrus]

foreigners measure my armor in decameters

[vocal stirrup]

https://vxtwitter.com/historyinmemes/status/1676216493112000512

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhdODlo5nOQ

[rapid junco]

That reminds me of the Pedro Teixeira and Roraima class riverine patrol ships
Like, on their posts on Reddit, people often looked at their freeboards

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/Gsh_60_1/status/1676485431335223298

AST21 (@Gsh_60_1)

Lockheed Martin Prototype sketch

Likes

1924

Retweets

251

Twitter · Jul 5, 2023, 6:57 AM

[manic latch]

Ok so, asked a expert myself and he made a good response

Quantity vs Quality to an extent is true, with nuance. The problem is that the USSR basically starts the tech game way behind everyone else, and then is isolated for the Cold War, unable to make use of the massive think-tank that is the West. The common perception is that the Soviets didn’t care about quality; that’s not true. The issue is that they had an upper limit on quality, and thus had to focus on quantity.

As for BVR fighting; it’s not an instant loss for Soviet fighters in a realistic scenario. In any realistic scenario, the Soviets aren’t using their fighters offensively, as they’re primarily a defensive tool to augment SAM networks. They thus get to make use of the best SAM network in the world at the time, which helps. And pre-AIM-120C, the primary Western BVR missiles are Fox-1s, roughly on par with R-27ER/ET, and Flanker’s radar and datalink aren’t unusable. Mind you, they’re at a disadvantage, but it’s not a hopeless fight. In WVR like the Topgun scenario, I would argue that played out far better for the Cats than it should have, if they were supposed to be MiG-29s.

Shchel-3U + R-73 is simply a trump card in a WVR fight, and post-reunification mock dogfights with former East German Fulcrums demonstrated that thoroughly.

TLDR; Theoretical Cold War fights are heavily Western-sided in BVR, though Soviets have SAM aid, and it’s heavily Soviet-sided in WVR, though American tactics and training are generally superior.

[shrewd pecan]

I feel like

your heavily forgetting about the western edge in avionics, FLIRs and overall SEAD when compared to the Soviets

alongside the fielding of similar western air defense systems such as patriot

[manic latch]

This was more of plane vs plane and why designs varied, weren't US planes were less relied on their own Sams given they expected the be more on Soviet territory? Or a place without ADs

[shrewd pecan]

depends on the over all situation, again NATO still had large amount of SAM systems including strategic systems like patriot, on top of the overall edge in 4th gen numbers

[manic latch]

While the American aircraft can see first, and Aim-120 is a genuinely better BVR missile, Cold War era Soviet aircraft generally put more missiles in the air, and use a mixed load of R-27ERs and ETs to complicate defence

[shrewd pecan]

even when it comes down to entering Soviet airspace

NATO has the edge with navigation pods like LANTIRN and night fighting capability

[tough quail]

you are probably self proclaimed for a reason

[spring briar]

ah
a doorstop
nice

[shrewd pecan]

while both sides were likely gonna take massive amounts of attrition

that is just the nature of a WW3 in Europe

(bye bye A-10 fleet!)

[manic latch]

Of course we don't deny edges US craft had, but guy claimed "hopelessly outmatched"

[shrewd pecan]

I wouldn't call it hopelessly outmatched

[tough quail]

im not gonna go out here and say 3000 black mig-29s of allah are going to dab on the entire F-15 arsenal or some shit

but if you think the gap is that big...

no

lol

[humble mulch]

[tough quail]

you;'re just completely wrong

[manic latch]

Like F-22 wouldn't exist

[shrewd pecan]

depends on how you want to take your WW3 scenario

[tough quail]

and you have more or less proven you have a surface level knowledge of anything soviet at best

[shrewd pecan]

there's a lot of fifth gen prototypes starting to enter mock up stage in the 80s

if its just immediate first few months of conventional war then nukes then obviously no fifth gens

[humble mulch]

Yeah I've looked at some of the stuff post German reunification and agree with this

[shrewd pecan]

if its a long drawn out multi year war possibly

[manic latch]

R-73 was a really good missile

Nerfed by radar of Mig 29

[warm finch]

First paragraph: changing nothing about any of my statements except making you look like a troll...
Second paragraph: the Russians don't have to use them offensively, they just have to be flying around. And this "best SAM network in the world" can easily by the metric fuckton of SEAD and DEAD weapons the west has been investing in since WW2. The R-27s combat record is lacking at best. MiG-28s are infact just repainted F-5 Tigers. If we take this into account, the cats would have wiped the floor with them.
Third paragraph: If we assume they end up in WVR combat, this is correct. But WVR happened to the Americans 3 times in the last 40 years.

[manic latch]

Ah yes I'm trolling

[shrewd pecan]

the R-73 and the HMD had the advantage in dogfights

[severe star]

It really comes off as

[manic latch]

Josh is Fagot your alt account

[shrewd pecan]

US wouldn't gain the advantage in dogfights until AIM-9X and their own HMDs

[severe star]

💀

[manic latch]

[tough quail]

da

u see

SEAD exists

[shrewd pecan]

again the dogfight isn't hopeless

the AIM-9L/M can hold its own

[warm finch]

No we're just friends mate... I exorcise vatniks he stays away.

[severe star]

Ah yes I'm typing on 2 accounts at the same time to troll you rando on some discord server

[shrewd pecan]

tactics can be adjusted to deal with the R-73

[severe star]

Peak reasoning lmao

[shrewd pecan]

I've seen it before

[tough quail]

so the US will now instantly erase the worlds most absurdly large SAM stockpile overnight

[warm finch]

You make it look like that. Dummy.

[manic latch]

Bro are you 12

[shrewd pecan]

like I'm not making allegations

[manic latch]

Where is the trolling at that paragraph

[humble mulch]

Kremlin I'm gonna ask you to stop

[severe star]

Hes probably older than you

[shrewd pecan]

but I've seen some creepy people with alts man

[humble mulch]

Cause I'm gonna yeet these 2

Bad faith rule time

[tough quail]

its bad when even tato is kinda sorta on kremlins side

that's some unholy alliance shit

[severe star]

Lol

[humble mulch]

Literally

[warm finch]

Because you didn't change anything about my statement... I said as much and continuing to ignore me just makes you look like an idiot, which I don't know if it is better than being a troll

[humble mulch]

Tato & Kremlin are in agreement on Russian stuff

[shrewd pecan]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-meme-gif-18594657

[tough quail]

i think that's like

[humble mulch]

Therefore you have no hope unless you actually have an argument

[tough quail]

a prophecy in the dead sea scrolls or some shit

[shrewd pecan]

anyway here's 900 reasons why the Su-57 is trash

[tough quail]

still looks cooler than raptors tho

[severe star]

The bolts

[humble mulch]

So both of you please cease
Also @warm finch please change your name

[tough quail]

[severe star]

💀

[tough quail]

get yo weird sausage engines out of here

[severe star]

Literally the NATO callsign for that plane

[humble mulch]

SU-57s do look cooler

[warm finch]

In actual combat, where there is an AWACS nearby along with multiple EW aircraft jamming Russian comms, missiles and radar. The west has a ridiculous edge that the russians, with their own lack of counterparts, cannot compete with.

[humble mulch]

I don't give a shit

[severe star]

And that makes them better...?

[manic latch]

Are you sure nothing will happen to awacs?

[tough quail]

i just want to bully the US until they start doing cool plane liveries more often

[shrewd pecan]

Soviet SAM systems would still inflict significant losses though would likely be eventually attritioned enough into allowing US deep dominance

[humble mulch]

Agreed

[warm finch]

Good enough?

[manic latch]

Like are you SURE Awacs will stay alive for a long while?

[humble mulch]

Yeah that's fine

[shrewd pecan]

AWACs fleet had like

dedicated 4-6 fighters per AWACs aircraft at a time

[humble mulch]

You're just:
White name
Slur as user name
Being weird

So if another mod sees you You're fucked

[warm finch]

... do russian missiles just suddenly have the range to fire over the black sea?

[severe star]

It's not a slur it's literally the call sign

[tough quail]

the most interesting part of any air war like this is what batshit insane ghetto tactics are employed to get around SEAD

[humble mulch]

It's a slur

[shrewd pecan]

I mean for jamming its just

[severe star]

With 2 Gs would be

[shrewd pecan]

home to jam

[manic latch]

Do you know planes have good range?

[tough quail]

like serbs literally driving around shitty radar trailors on full blast to bait anti-radar missiles

[warm finch]

Wait i thought russians would be on the defensive so what the hell are you on about?

[tough quail]

that was some of the goddamn funniest tactics in warfare

[shrewd pecan]

eh I don't care if I get warn for this sticker it fits the situation

[humble mulch]

Awacs are used offensively

[humble mulch]

So defensively you should remove them from existing

[tough quail]

respectable

[manic latch]

Do you know WHERE Awacs would be?

[severe star]

At least one other sane person

[shrewd pecan]

anywho!

[tough quail]

the awacs knows where it is

[warm finch]

Outside most possible dangers range...

[tough quail]

adats my beloved

[shrewd pecan]

AWAC losses would likely be minimal

[manic latch]

Do you know why Awacs exist

[shrewd pecan]

but with the amount of anti AWACs missiles the soviets developed

[warm finch]

Do you?

[shrewd pecan]

there would likely be a few

[manic latch]

Yes, when you need to have such radar in places you really need to have

Which is potentially dangerous places

[warm finch]

That's EW aircraft bruh

[manic latch]

You knows AWACS also use electronics right

[warm finch]

AWACS ≠ EW

[shrewd pecan]

the AWACs still has to be within like

[humble mulch]

I could have sworn Awacs are usually pretty close by

[manic latch]

Chief Awacs doesn't stay in America

[humble mulch]

They aren't fucking unlimited range

[manic latch]

They are VERY close to action range

[shrewd pecan]

400 KMs of the fight

[warm finch]

They do but not to the same point as, say, the EA-6 Was

[warm finch]

Usually close to a tanker.

[severe star]

Not unlimited but pretty long range

[shrewd pecan]

like

the E-3 can see far

but it still has to be decently close to the frontline to actually be useful

[manic latch]

Awacs have max ranges for their radar, they must be close enough to actually use it

[shrewd pecan]

like there's a good chance

[warm finch]

They data link to EW aircraft

[shrewd pecan]

a flight of Su-27s or MIG-31s could overwhelm the fighter escorts

[humble mulch]

These are also planes so if you have 400km range
And the planes you are watching are at 350km

[shrewd pecan]

and get a anti AWACs missile off

[humble mulch]

They can just leave your range if shit pops off

Like can we have a normal coherent conversation about how this would actually go down instead of bad faith troll bullshit

[warm finch]

They can, but they won't try to

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-33_(missile)

[manic latch]

???

What

[tough quail]

inb4 wartime developed AA jeeps

[manic latch]

Avenger

[severe star]

Generally given how've they been doing in recent events I don't think they'd be doing that well

[warm finch]

Leave the range man. I replied to a message without pressing the reply button. It's not that big of a deal

[tough quail]

just strap some jackass with a bunch of strelas and fling him into the woods behind the lines to try to find AWACS

[manic latch]

Do you even know why those Awacs doesn't get harmed?

If you don't just don't talk Josh

[severe star]

Lmao alright

[warm finch]

He meant the flankers bruh

[grave ravine]

People overstate the importance of AWACS for a European war

NATO does also have quality ground radars networked in

[severe star]

Ok sir

[tough quail]

...primarily fighting eachother..?

[humble mulch]

We weren't talking about general group radars

[tough quail]

man an f-15 shot down an f-15 i guess f-15s suck

[grave ravine]

The real edge NATO has in this area is superior C&C facilities and networking

[tough quail]

wild

[manic latch]

They are literally against each other,

How can I claim F-15 is weak vs F-15

[severe star]

Still no air superiority after 1 year against an "inferior" enemy so yeah

[tough quail]

brain damage

[warm finch]

Oh boy I sure hope this missile has a colourful service record-

[manic latch]

Also like Soviet Union is much different

Much much different

[severe star]

If they're that bad fighting against their own imagine vs F-15s... Kinda did yourself there lol

[manic latch]

So what F-15 does to break physics of a plane that cannot be shot down by a missile?

Does it have Vibranium armor?

[tough quail]

what kind of ass backwards logic

[severe star]

Lmao what

[humble mulch]

Yeah ok, @warm finch @severe star here's your verbal warning for trolling and arguing in bad faith

[severe star]

Trolling?

[warm finch]

Now let us compare!
The unkillable old man, the McDonnell Douglas F-15
vs.
The abandoned design of the Su-27 flanker, shot down multiple times (twice by its own)

[shrewd pecan]

I mean

[manic latch]

It's not a wonder weapon my dude

[shrewd pecan]

F-15Es have been downed by SAMs

[tough quail]

hell we're talking about the USSR vs NATO not the remnants of it it trying to be a functional military

[shrewd pecan]

and F-15A/Cs have nearly been downed by MIG-25s

[manic latch]

Saudi also lost F-15 not long ago, they aren't immortal

[warm finch]

The credibility of that is debatable.

[shrewd pecan]

we lost

2+ F-15Es

in the Gulf War

to Iraqi SAMS

[severe star]

No I'm more confused by how we're trolling

[tough quail]

no the F-15s just vanished my man

[severe star]

Literally just don't like our arguements or smt

[humble mulch]

Josh you have no real argument

[shrewd pecan]

and a F-15 ate a Iraqis MIG-25s missile

and made it back to base

[severe star]

Hahahaha ok

[shrewd pecan]

again

I am not saying the F-15s bad

[humble mulch]

And I'm just overseeing this I'd rather you guys send actual info over this shit and compare contrast whatever the fuck

[tough quail]

except even tato is kinda siding with kremlin

[shrewd pecan]

I am arguing against it being undefeatable

[warm finch]

I've read the reports, may have been lost, may have not been, point stands that the F-15 was barely ever shot down compared to the Flanker.

[tough quail]

so you know its bad

[humble mulch]

Not just wank each other off in here over the dumbest of things

[severe star]

And one of them is a mod accusing us of trolling because...?

[humble mulch]

And that does go for you too Kremlin, don't instigate

[shrewd pecan]

yeah the dog shitter Su-27s being thrown into either foreign service or being left unmodernized

[tough quail]

i wonder what the difference is in the conflicts they've been used in

hmm

[shrewd pecan]

F-15 > Su-27 but the Su-27 can still down a F-15

[tough quail]

real brainscratcher

[humble mulch]

Yeah, issue is you guys just going smooth brain over F-15s and losing all reasoning

[grave ravine]

The VKS would have been a threat, but the Soviet AD network would have been a much bigger one

[humble mulch]

It's not like it has godmod installed

It's just a plane with missiles

[tough quail]

i forgot those weird wars where like, brazillian F-15s went against the actual soviet airforce

[shrewd pecan]

US supremacy in the air comes down to training and datalink capabilities

we aren't fielding invincible airframes

[manic latch]

For F-15 to be immortal, it literally has to be faster than any kind of missile, and has no heat signature at all

[grave ravine]

And stealth post 2000

[shrewd pecan]

F-15s have been downed and damaged

[grave ravine]

And good tactics

[tough quail]

it also goes very badly if they let the training slip (not that im saying they currently have)

[shrewd pecan]

F-15s has been downed by a AIM-9 from another F-15 thanks to the Japanese

[tough quail]

the start of vietnam was, err

Not Great

for the USAF

[shrewd pecan]

the Iraqi MIG-25 could of very much

downed that F-15A

if the crew wasn't lucky

[grave ravine]

I would argue that was more of a failure of the C&C capabilities than training

[warm finch]

Actual info... okay, let's have some data:
Kuwait war,
US losses:
1 F/A-18
1 B-52G
1 MQ-1
Iraq losses:
Over 44
Inlcuding MiG-29s, MiG-25s and MiG-21s.

[shrewd pecan]

?????????????????????????

[tough quail]

no it was very much training and stupid doctrine

which is why the navy performed wildly better

[humble mulch]

That looks very questionable

[tough quail]

while the USAF was getting their cocks hammered by last gen jets

[warm finch]

One was used in a conflict by a competent air force, the other was not.

[humble mulch]

Do you have a source

[grave ravine]

Nah, the Navy had significantly better C&C early on

[shrewd pecan]

WELP GUESS I AM DIGIGNG INTO MY OLD SOURCES

[humble mulch]

Lmao tato no

Pls

We don't have to do this

[warm finch]

... even wikipedia

[shrewd pecan]

http://www.rjlee.org/air/ds-aaloss/

[grave ravine]

It's notable the big jumps in USAF performance were with the introduction of Teaball

[grave ravine]

Good article on USAF performance in Vietnam https://www.historynet.com/great-kill-ratio-debate/

[humble mulch]

LMAO FIRST ONE

LOL

[shrewd pecan]

we lost 2 F-15Es to AA

and a F-15C damaged to a MIG-25

I have no idea

where the fuck the B-52 kill claim is coming from

since no B-52s were lost

only damaged

[warm finch]

Then I concede, F-15Es and other fighter-bombers cannot be called superior to interceptors from now on

[warm finch]

No i've read it was lost before landing

[humble mulch]

That wasn't even the argument

[shrewd pecan]

there were no B-52 hull losses

in the Gulf War

[tough quail]

this guy is really struggling

[shrewd pecan]

they were literally carpet bombing the Republican Guard

and didn't take any hull losses

[humble mulch]

Didn't they also like

Appear after most SAM sites got hit?

[shrewd pecan]

early war they were primarily firing cruise missiles

[humble mulch]

Ah ok

[shrewd pecan]

during the ground phase they were hitting Iraqi troops directly

[manic latch]

Do you claim Leclerc is best MBT because it has 0 loss?

[warm finch]

I believe the argument was "F-15 not unkillable" which in the context of fighters is true. But F-15Es are fighter-bombers, are they not?

[humble mulch]

It's the best cause it looks coolest

[tough quail]

the only invincible wunder jet is mirage IVs

by virtue of being based

[warm finch]

No. Do I call the raptor the best fighter because it has 0 losses?

[shrewd pecan]

in terms of Yemen

[humble mulch]

No so originally the argument was over F-15s being sent from God

[shrewd pecan]

only one F-15 damaged

and one crashed due to non combat related reasons

[tough quail]

you seem the type

[severe star]

F-15 has seen many engagements by now tho has leclerc?

[shrewd pecan]

what is even this argument anymore

[humble mulch]

They are good planes but not literally going to turn anything made by Russians into Atoms like you seem to be saying

[severe star]

Also really doubt looks have much to say in tacticality

[warm finch]

You seem the type to have this as your best argument... but I digress.

[shrewd pecan]

I literally have a entire thread dedicated to American Defense industry propaganda

and I am arguing in circles that no the F-15 is not invincible

[humble mulch]

Looks matter for tanks

[severe star]

Watch it before you get warned for "trolling" too 💀

[deep apex]

Tf is this bullshit on my screen dawg

[severe star]

I'd like to think what a vehicle can do and perform is more important than looks

[dusty kraken]

Su-27 looks more aesthetically pleasing until you see that yee-yee ass bulge at the back

ruins the whole thing

[shrewd pecan]

anyway Abrams > t series, t series tanks are death craps blah blah blah blah blah

[warm finch]

That sentiment was a bit of an exaggeration, but seeing the overall performance of western weapons systems overall, I still think the Russians would be a floor rag by the end of any hypothetical air war at small cost to the west.

[warm finch]

Yes.

[tough quail]

im sorry cowards, i cant hear you over the enormous cock of the mirage iv

[shrewd pecan]

anyway

[severe star]

Ammo stowage and turret go nyoooom

[deep apex]

Y'all got all types of fuckery goin on

[grave ravine]

Obviously this meme truly single handedly describes the state of a potential air war with no simplification and leaves nothing out

[severe star]

Idk but we just got warned for "trolling" for stating our sides arguements

[manic latch]

Baseless claims*

[tough quail]

resolution out of 10

[shrewd pecan]

the entire slavaboo response to that meme I will say

is completely cope

but at the same time

dear god anyone who thinks a cold war gone hot air war

[grave ravine]

Yeah it's a stupid meme

[shrewd pecan]

would not inflict immense losses on both the US and Soviets

[severe star]

💀

[humble mulch]

I'm sad Romania no longer has there soviet planes

[deep apex]

Stfu please

[shrewd pecan]

especially when the USAF expected fleets like the A-10 fleet

to be almost entirely wiped out by the first few months

[humble mulch]

Forgot wtf they went to
Think F-16s

[tough quail]

i would post the SHORAD version of that meme but i wont for 2 reasons

1: im too lazy to find it

[grave ravine]

TBF A-10

[tough quail]

2: it makes fun of maulers

[shrewd pecan]

is just immensely wrong

[tough quail]

and maulers are cool

[severe star]

Baseless or you just dont like being prooven wrong

[grave ravine]

Like the hell were they thinking shilkas exist

[manic latch]

"Proven"

[deep apex]

All I'm seeing from this is that y'all are just havin a malarkey spittin competition

[manic latch]

You dont have proof Josh

[humble mulch]

Kremlin I'll warn you too

[manic latch]

Ok I will not eat baits

[shrewd pecan]

dealing with Soviet tank hordes with your glorified Vietnam era doctrine relic because the Israelis penetrated Egyptian tanks with 30 MMs or something

[tough quail]

yeah kremlin dont overcook it

[severe star]

It wasnt a bait it was literally how it is

[humble mulch]

I can't just time people out

[grave ravine]

I mean no reason for the /s, it's true

[humble mulch]

Actually you know what

[warm finch]

You claimed the Su-27 surpassed the F-15. Literally said. I can find the message if you wish.

[manic latch]

Where?

[shrewd pecan]

wasn't the only claim

was that it for the time

[tough quail]

[shrewd pecan]

was better in a dogfight

due to the R-73 and HMD

[deep apex]

Bitches get a room in the dms

[tough quail]

which it was

[humble mulch]

Pretty sure yep

[shrewd pecan]

the training dogfights with the German MIG-29s

just prove that until the F-15s got their HMDs

[deep apex]

News flash: discord group dms

[warm finch]

Here. This can only be taken this way because there are no other planes which you could possibly mean (data tells us the original MiG-29 was a meme)

[shrewd pecan]

literally just one claim that was only true for about 20 years until AIM-9X came around

[severe star]

A-10 is literally just good at one thing

[tough quail]

just fire strelas at them

[deep apex]

They're a thing

Stop filling up the chat with y'all's bullshit

[shrewd pecan]

THE A-10 IS A RELIABLE BOMB/MISSILE TRUCK ABLE TO CHEAPLY DELIVER ORDNANCE AND TAKE A BEATING

[manic latch]

You ignored the whole paragraph I responded with

[shrewd pecan]

ALONGSIDE THE CAPABILITY TO OPERATE FROM DOGSHIT AIRFIELDS

[tough quail]

ah yes the "data"

source: dude trust me, but more technical sounding

[dusty kraken]

Put the A-10 on the ground so AA does not work on it

[warm finch]

You ignored your knowledge of the informatoon in that paragraph bud

[tough quail]

brooooooo

[deep apex]

Holy shit are y'all mfs BLIND?

[severe star]

Ironic

[shrewd pecan]

anyway my last shitpost for at a minimum 1 week

[tough quail]

i mean there was that goofy m48 hull with the gau-8 strapped to it

because, i dunno

we live in defiance of God?

[shrewd pecan]

now lemme go into the thread and post actual good content

[humble mulch]

99 cent store Shikkia

[shrewd pecan]

to cleanse the soul

[humble mulch]

Fuck is that how it's spelled

[grave ravine]

It's an outdated plane that had shit avionics until the 2000s at which point you should just use strike eagles and F-16s

[tough quail]

to be fair a gau-8 is a fucking absurd gun

also, shilka

[humble mulch]

The soviet Spga with all the barrels

[humble mulch]

Yee

Love them

And yeah the Gau-8 is wild

[tough quail]

i want to go back to the days of dressing up shilkas as sheridans and vice versa for war games

[manic latch]

Finally peace

[tough quail]

god thats such an aesthetic spaa

[deep apex]

GROUP DMS PLEASE. STFU ABOUT YALLS STUPID PLANES

[shrewd pecan]

the main point is Congress men want to keep jobs in their congressional districts

[manic latch]

Congress

[grave ravine]

Phone won't load pics cuz shit data speeds 😭

[warm finch]

Are you dense or just misinformed? Look at it. It's so bad the Poles had to upgrade them. The RWR was called lacking. The range was considered atrocious and all that makes it good is "look cool tactically inept maneuver"

[humble mulch]

Tato do you follow any modern magazines to see if they still do these ads?

[shrewd pecan]

I have like

5 twitter accounts I follow

[humble mulch]

Lmao

[manic latch]

And what year did Poles upgrade it Mig?

[deep apex]

Holy shit stop fucking arguing

[warm finch]

1993. Pretty much first chance they got.

[tough quail]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/875620177402802179/918987129596575744/goodonkey-1.gif

[shrewd pecan]

think these were primarily in janes

[warm finch]

The germans sold it to them for 1 euro each for crying out loud

[shrewd pecan]

janes is currently outside of the fed ex worker budget to follow so

there breaking reality

[manic latch]

That's literally means nothing at all

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local/texas/texas-salvage-company-buys-legendary-us-navy-aircraft-carrier-for-one-cent/269-90140fdb-c64b-4d47-a816-799c2c4f7110

Kitty Hawk is super trash for being sold for 1 cent?

[deep apex]

STFU

[humble mulch]

Yeah we sold a CV for $.01

[deep apex]

Nobody

[humble mulch]

But pls stop

[deep apex]

Wants

To

Read

Your

BULLSHIT

[humble mulch]

Spoon pls lol

[warm finch]

You know why they sold itt to them at that price? Because the upgrade package already cost literal millions.

[manic latch]

I can do Victor

[deep apex]

Oh ffs

[tough quail]

can you stop being more annoying than them

[warm finch]

So they weren't polish but german. Upgraded by the germans in 1993, then sold to poland in 2003

[humble mulch]

Is it for refueling?

[severe star]

Fuel

[shrewd pecan]

essentially the Germans donated them to the Poles after getting their first eurofighters

they still maintained their MIG-29 fleet for a entire decade post reunification

[warm finch]

Yes? The last time I read about these transfers was a month ago

[severe star]

Yeah we kept GDR stuff until we got better stuff

[shrewd pecan]

and the German MIG-29s provided inroads to western development programs for HMDs and missiles like IRST and AIM-9X

[severe star]

Because the east German NVA was integrated into the west German Bundeswehr

To the army it is now

[shrewd pecan]

crazy times

[severe star]

Some eastern Equipment stayed for a few years

[shrewd pecan]

G3s and BMP-1s

[severe star]

Oh man the old uniforms

Pre 1992 when flecktarn started replacing them until totally replaced by95/96

[shrewd pecan]

I will also additionally note

that pre reunification West Germany's best fighter was

the F-4 phantom

[warm finch]

Would the statement "the Russians would take a bunch of stuff with them but still ultimately lose" be a good way to sum up the argument to finally close it with "And you also know that Soviets were rather very close to it and even passed it in 80s?"

[shrewd pecan]

that lacked sparrows

and didn't get AMRAAMs until the 90s

[manic latch]

"On military budget"

[severe star]

What about Eurofighter and Tornado

[shrewd pecan]

so MIG-29 fleet made sense to maintain until Eurofighter showed up

Germany didn't operate ADVs

[humble mulch]

Romanian had their Mig-29s this year

[shrewd pecan]

and Eurofighter doesn't show up until

2004

[severe star]

Eurofighter still going strong

[warm finch]

Which is what led to the USSR collapsing... and again, you didn't change anything about the statement. There were still less Flankers. There were still less Fulcrums.

[humble mulch]

They had been sending them to Isreal iirc for 4.5 gen upgrades

[severe star]

Developed in the 90s already tho

[shrewd pecan]

that still doesn't show up

until the 2004

leaving Germany either entirely dependent on phantoms

or the rest of NATO for fighters

[severe star]

Tornado

[shrewd pecan]

yes the tornados that can only carry

AIM-9Ls

[warm finch]

Fighter bomber bro...

[shrewd pecan]

because only Italy and the UK

[severe star]

Yeah...

[shrewd pecan]

bought the ADVs

[warm finch]

Not an interceptor, or a strike fighter. A fighter bomber.

[severe star]

Well multi role but primarily attacker and some naval

[warm finch]

Can't really blame them considering they were really low on modern fighters at the time.

[severe star]

And well, an EW variant

[shrewd pecan]

yeah but a I am trying to point out

West Germany didn't have any BVR capable aircraft

until the MIG-29s showed up post reunification

and the F-4s got their AMRAAMs

"In July 1989, the first F-4F ICE Phase 2 aircraft was completed, and on 22 November 1991 the first firing of an AIM-120 AMRAAM took place. In 1992, the first batch of six upgraded aircraft was delivered to JG 71 (Fighter Wing 71), but the AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles were not available at that time.[16]"

[severe star]

Well thats just procurement, especially with new stuff

[warm finch]

You still didnt bloody have it bruv

[severe star]

Plus EF was alr in development

[shrewd pecan]

that's still the entire West German airforce

without BVR capability for most of its history

and leaving it entirely dependent on the rest of NATO

for air supremacy

[warm finch]

I mean (to be as fair as I can) West Germany was more of a stalling force than anything else while the Americans mobilise. Comfortable buffer like most of the eastern bloc was for the Soviets.

[shrewd pecan]

most of the budget went to the Heer

they did have 2k+ leopard 2s

even then the lack of any BVR capability is still you know

rather bad

[warm finch]

If not crippling.

[neon oyster]

They probably thought if Warsaw pact went ahead any airbases would probably disappear over night

Or it could just be stupid

[warm finch]

It is just stupid because high ways were reportedly made to be convertable to, and stay with me here, makeshift runways.

[severe star]

Yeah this

[neon oyster]

I guess they didn’t care about air force

[severe star]

We had an air force enough for self defense but for the major part the rest was up to the US etc while we focused on ground warfare/defense

[neon oyster]

Any operation from Germany itself was probably suicidal anyways depending on how fast Soviets pushed. Artillery is no joke

[shrewd pecan]

the Danish designation for the Draken

always flashbangs me

[neon oyster]

And when u have the some of the largest air forces in the world on your side it’s not much of a problem

[tough quail]

all warfare will return

to g u n

[shrewd pecan]

F-35 at home

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_35_Draken

[severe star]

Until Tornado/Alpha jet we actually didn't develop any of our own planes, just guns tanks/ground vehicles and helis

[neon oyster]

B U L L E T

[neon oyster]

And tornado had British and Italian help

[warm finch]

It was a joint venture so technically still theirs...

[neon oyster]

Draken my beloved Dorito

[severe star]

Yeah

[warm finch]

I mean, Iam an easterner so as I have established, we make shit planes

[severe star]

It was a consortium of companies to make 1 jet to use for all of these nations

[shrewd pecan]

NATO was always gonna be using airbases out of Germany

[neon oyster]

It’s OURS

[severe star]

Same for Eurofighter

[warm finch]

:gulagskull:

[neon oyster]

Well depends on how fast the Warsaw pack pushed I suppose

[shrewd pecan]

the warsaw pact isn't gonna push fast enough to deny you use of either permanent or makeshift airbases

especially with the combined NATO airforces dispersing themselves all over Western Germany and the Benelux

[neon oyster]

We never know. Even though I agree

[warm finch]

Eeeh... I don´t really think any push from them would have been quite that significant

[shrewd pecan]

a successful seven days to the rhine would just lead to the French nuking

[neon oyster]

Warning

[shrewd pecan]

in terms of the 1980s

NATO had the means to deal with Warsaw pact forces conventionally

[deep apex]

How are y'all still going?

[shrewd pecan]

this isn't a argument

[warm finch]

That was an uhm... funny start of the joke, didn´t it end with "tactical nukes in Lisbon" or smt?

[shrewd pecan]

this is just more cold war discussion

[neon oyster]

What preparing for 40 years does to a mf

[shrewd pecan]

its primarily due to the advantages of Western computing and the types of equipment it was able to produce

[neon oyster]

Why Lisbon

[deep apex]

Imma just mute then

[neon oyster]

TOW

[shrewd pecan]

I'm talking more

[deep apex]

Cuz I don't care for theoretical if you know what I'm sayin

[shrewd pecan]

Abrams, M270, F-16, LANTIRN

[warm finch]

Both my grandfathers were in the Czechoslovak peoples army so believe me when I say, almost every man would have rather died than let NATO get over the border.

[severe star]

We actually still have like 25 nukes assigned to one of our tactical squadrons from the cold war

[shrewd pecan]

the twenty million other new pieces of equipment

[severe star]

B63 Hydrogen bombs

[shrewd pecan]

NATO Fielded during the 80s

[warm finch]

It´s the most western capital on the continent and thus the last one to be conquered ig?

[severe star]

Yeah well France and GB have their nukes

[warm finch]

not saying they wouldn´t get over but you know what Iam saying right?

[neon oyster]

How much I would have loved challenger blasting T-series

[severe star]

We have a few US nukes as per NATO sharing programme

[shrewd pecan]

you had that

1991

[severe star]

Chally, Leo 2 and Abrams ftw

[neon oyster]

If it got to the point there they made it to the other end of Europe (which I doubt) I think we’d already lost

[severe star]

Yeah

[neon oyster]

I want MORE

[shrewd pecan]

anyway

[severe star]

[warm finch]

Yeah that´s why I called the whole "7 days to the Rhine" a joke and "tactical nukes in lisbon" would have been the lastline of that joke

[neon oyster]

They’d probably be stopped in Germany. All the TOWs, tanks, aircraft would hurt sooooo much

[shrewd pecan]

it would be

[warm finch]

Yes. If the current war is anything to say atleast

[neon oyster]

Imagine T55s fighting Abrams

[severe star]

Yeah Fulda Gap was stacked lmao

[shrewd pecan]

a ton of very expensive NATO and eastern equipment destroyed and US Forces Europe/Western Forces being likely depleted by the time reforger units arrived to counter attack

[neon oyster]

The fact warsaw nations were still using t55

[shrewd pecan]

anyway

[severe star]

Bundeswehr (west German army) at It's peak was 600k men and 1.3 million reserves, 2k tanks, and thats just the "stall" force

[neon oyster]

Anyone rolling even a meter in would be blasted by 10 different things

[severe star]

Then theres the other NATO units stationed along

Americans, Brits, the French

[shrewd pecan]

by the end of the cold war about 5k tanks if you include the M48s

[warm finch]

My grandfather from my dads side said a story of how they once went on exercise and a periscope falling in one of those apparently killed one guy. Real nasty way to go

[neon oyster]

Yikes

[warm finch]

Like, it falls and suddenly you´re at gods gate

[severe star]

Also legit every soldier, even backline, got a leichte Panzerfaust (light rpg, panzergrenadiers (mechanized infantry/AT) got the heavy one)
Source: Father who served at the end of cold war

And the amount of these things in depots

[neon oyster]

Well considering how many tanks the Warsaw pact had I’d say good

[severe star]

If thats the "best" chance they ever had at beating us it's even a more ridiculous difference now

[neon oyster]

Errr let just say games like COD were quite optimistic

[manic latch]

Ah yes Cod

One man army soldiers

[severe star]

CoD and Hollywood

[warm finch]

...Look Iam really not trying to repeat myself here but how do you want us to answer to that?

I just don´t understand how that message alone contributes yknow?

[manic latch]

Bringing up Cod in first place is weird for history just saying

[warm finch]

... what

[autumn sorrel]

So, what did I miss, Krem?

[severe star]

No one said it was realistic lmao

[neon oyster]

I wanted to be a bit subtler. So no mods show up

[severe star]

We said CoD because it wasnt

[manic latch]

Nato vs Warsaw Pact talk and why things would go good for Nato etc

So it's a what if history deal

[autumn sorrel]

Are we talking about the 70s, 80s or 90s?

[warm finch]

80s

[manic latch]

Likely 80s

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, so the time where it is quite even eh

[warm finch]

I would say that it´s atleast leaning west.

[severe star]

Yeah

[warm finch]

I mean, F-15 air-to-air losses? Gulf war curbstomp?

[autumn sorrel]

On air, yes. No so much on land

[severe star]

Germany was pretty well fortified and armed

[neon oyster]

war is unpredictable in nature. But I’m leaning NATO too. Especially if they’re defending

[manic latch]

I think this is Nato data from 1975

[severe star]

Not just the West German forces even though they were already good, now additionally count in US and UK

[warm finch]

All of their strategies were based on them defending at first.

[neon oyster]

Quality matters too. Most of Warsaw pact were old tanks and conscripts

[severe star]

^^^

[manic latch]

M48 vs T55 doesn't sound unfair however

[warm finch]

But it is. Anyone else remember the Iran Iraq war where M48s and M60s reportedly kicked Saddams ass?

[neon oyster]

How many m48s did nato have? How many did T55 have? Or better what percentage of total forces did they make up?

[severe star]

Also sheer number tactics already got the soviets huge casualties in ww2 so, and given this is the 80s so a more modern age, don't think it'd go much better

[shrewd pecan]

the Europeans had a lot of M48s still in service

[spring briar]

Smolensk
Borodino

[shrewd pecan]

and the US throughout the cold war still had significant amounts of M60s

[neon oyster]

I think only Germany had some m48s at this point

[spring briar]

[severe star]

Also Leopard 2s, 1s, Abrams, Challengers

[manic latch]

Many, main reason Turkey has one of largest tank fleet comes from still use of M48

[neon oyster]

Or maybe Italy Spain and whatever

[autumn sorrel]

You forget to count in T-62, T-64, T-72?

[severe star]

GDR for example was mostly T-55s, and later on a few 72s

[tough quail]

this is probably the most obvious way you can tell the iraqis sucked ass too

[autumn sorrel]

But the main thrush would be from the Soviet armors formation, no?

[manic latch]

And these are nukes

[shrewd pecan]

it was one country vs the entire world

[neon oyster]

The Soviets also had t55s and 62s and more in storage to be brought out

[tough quail]

no im just jabbing that challengers suck ass

[severe star]

Soviet and east German

[warm finch]

intermediate. Also these are nuclear forces, that includes plane based.

[manic latch]

Divisions

[autumn sorrel]

Lest don’t forget Saddam T-72 are export model and his domestic production are downgraded of a downgrade

[shrewd pecan]

rather be in one than the T-72s I will say

[neon oyster]

Well nukes aren’t fun to discuss. It just goes everything boom done

[tough quail]

your funeral

[warm finch]

And bringing in nukes is kinda boring.

[tough quail]

but we already had this argument before

[shrewd pecan]

at least my corpse won't be charred

[severe star]

As for German side West German, Americans, British and some others

[tough quail]

yes it will\

[spring briar]

just another day

[manic latch]

Challenger 2 doesn't have blow out panel

[warm finch]

No we had this about the air war.

[severe star]

Yeah then just everyone dies

[neon oyster]

Quality. UK and France had 100% volunteers

[tough quail]

im not talking to you my man

[autumn sorrel]

How the heck English lost that war

[shrewd pecan]

anyway

[thorny patio]

Ah sorry for bringing monitors up again, but what's the chance the devs release more monitors?

I mean, the imperial navy is in the game... What's to prohibit the few notable Austrian ships to be in as well? XD

[shrewd pecan]

I won't have the chally argument now

[warm finch]

Challenger 2 also has no combat losses and is designed to be as survivable as possible

[shrewd pecan]

STOP IT WITH THE COMBAT LOSS ARGUMENT

ANYTHING WILL HAVE COMBAT LOSSES IF USED IN COMBAT

[manic latch]

Abrams inferior confirmed

[neon oyster]

I know

[autumn sorrel]

Nope, ww2 time and only Brit field Monitors in a meaningful way

[shrewd pecan]

ATTRITION WILL HAPPEN NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOUR VEHICLE IS OR HOW WELL ITS BEEN USED

ITS A DUMB ARGUMENT STOP USING IT

[warm finch]

Iam aware. But

[severe star]

It does give some reference to effectiveness tho

[shrewd pecan]

ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO TANKS

[severe star]

Lmao ok

[thorny patio]

But there's so few actual monitors in the game

[tough quail]

they didnt do a good job at making it very survivable

[warm finch]

I use it as a side argument, like a topping on a toast.

[tough quail]

given the front plate is so piss a t-34 could punch through it

[shrewd pecan]

ABRAMS BAD!

[manic latch]

no blow out panel

survivable as possible

[shrewd pecan]

CHALLY BAD LOOK!

[neon oyster]

Chally is good enough. Comparing It to Abrams is not too useful as it’ll probably never fight them

[autumn sorrel]

Bc they are rare, by the time of ww2 the concept doesn’t fit anymore

[thorny patio]

Honestly monitors are a neat sub-class

[tough quail]

quacken

[warm finch]

Get a grip man, I already said I understand

[tough quail]

do you have the memory of a grapefruit

[spring briar]

Horse halp

[severe star]

Ah yes take image from some FF accident, one of few, and I bet I can find hundreds of images of burned out T-72s etc

[neon oyster]

How do u know? That’s supposed to be classified

[spring briar]

halp

[thorny patio]

royal fortune... That is all

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

I like how this was proven right by Mig-15's good vehicle logic

[tough quail]

i play war thunder

[spring briar]

(yes I removed french client states because it looks funnier that way)

[tough quail]

[spring briar]

( )

[autumn sorrel]

If yours arguments is soviet spam tank and NATO value quality, eventually combat losses will affect NATO more than Soviet

[neon oyster]

Best sauce

[humble mulch]

He’s simply calling out how your reasoning is very poor and bad and will only devolve the conversation like how you were earlier about the F-15

[autumn sorrel]

Seriously, stop picking fight with Brit and the world

[severe star]

A defensive war is easier to maintain than an offensive

[warm finch]

I never agreed with that anyway

[manic latch]

You just did

[spring briar]

no, it's fun

[thorny patio]

Also what about the ottomans? Didn't they have a navy?

[tough quail]

the tank quality vs quantity argument doesn't really work very well given up until the mid 80s the soviets were superior in both fields

[spring briar]

yeaaah but

[humble mulch]

Go play your Cold War sims else where if all you want to do is hyper wank shit

[warm finch]

ok?

[spring briar]

the Ottoman navy was one of the worst maintained ever

[neon oyster]

Oh god this is getting out of hand

[humble mulch]

Ottoman navy was horrid yeah

[manic latch]

Ottoman Navy had a great fall after age of sail ended

[thorny patio]

looks at the battle of sinops with despair

[humble mulch]

Even near the end of the age of sail they weren’t doing too hot

[manic latch]

True

[humble mulch]

Hell I’m pretty sure the Swedes could curb stomp them

[thorny patio]

I mean they HAD a Navy...

I imagine the Russians put a stop to that

[ivory ridge]

ah yes le lower frontplate argument

[humble mulch]

Russians did fuck up the ottomans but idk when that was

[thorny patio]

But they had a few warships by the time of ww1

[humble mulch]

Like Balkans broke out when 1800s?

[warm finch]

If your argument is that NATO will not be able to replace its losses. You are wrong, as demonstrated by the second world war where they put the economy on top of the economy to fix the economy.

[manic latch]

Bro Sinop was just bad

[tough quail]

yeet

[shrewd pecan]

I will point out

[autumn sorrel]

Crimean War, they done pretty good by all account with good leadership and professional soldiery

[shrewd pecan]

that in the span of a few years the US shat out 1k+ Abrams during peace time production

[severe star]

Yeah

[humble mulch]

Yeah they did great there just forgot the year and where it lined up on age of sail

[warm finch]

Literally incorrect. Combat record. Look it up for the Russians and then Americans.

[shrewd pecan]

but I will also point out

the Soviets were producing thousands of T-72s and T-80s a year during peace time production

[severe star]

Plus again, defense is easier to uphold

[thorny patio]

Yep, however they were never really on their "Allies" good side and we're just puppets to the brits

[shrewd pecan]

both sides

[severe star]

And maintain

[shrewd pecan]

are going to take horrendous losses in our hyper war wank here

[tough quail]

my brother in fucking christ read a book

not K/D ratios

do critical thinking

actually understand the systems you are discussing

read, you dumbass

[warm finch]

I imagine this is the definition of arguing in bad faith... but whatever, I digress.

[shrewd pecan]

when discussion is solely on K/D over how the vehicles are being used or what there capable of

[humble mulch]

Do you like BF-109s?

[manic latch]

Difference of WW2 and how Cold War would go is like Vietnam vs Iraq. There are wars you can do well vs ones you can do horribly.

But Vietnam vs Iraq battle results are proof that wars are unpredictable

[tough quail]

if you think a leopard 1 is better than a t-72 you are an absolute fucking dipshit

[shrewd pecan]

which Leopard 1?

[warm finch]

Doesn´t have to be fucking K/Ds. Has to be performance.

[severe star]

"but my tech is superior even if we lost more! Read a book" sorry but thats how it comes off

[neon oyster]

Sad leopard 2 noises

[shrewd pecan]

if its the 1A5 IT DOES HAVE SOME ADVANTAGES OVER THE T-72

[severe star]

1. That and 2. Still goes to show how it performs

[tough quail]

well yeah

[warm finch]

Correct.

[tough quail]

holy fuck

this is actual full bore dumbassery

[manic latch]

BY THIS LOGIC, LECLERC IS SUPERIOR TO ABRAMS BECAUSE IT HAS LESS LOSSES

[severe star]

And theres the sign you didn't listen to anything

[autumn sorrel]

And you happily forget the difference between their doctrine and refuse to acknowledge Soviet ability to learn from mistake.

[neon oyster]

Proof auto loader is superior

[severe star]

Exactly

[tough quail]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/875620177402802179/918987129596575744/goodonkey-1.gif

brain damage

[warm finch]

ABRAMS: VERY GOOD

[manic latch]

Hold on I have a trick question

Tiger or Sherman?

[tough quail]

wheeze

[warm finch]

LECLERC: how many wars was it in again? I feel like it can´t be judged.

[spring briar]

https://tenor.com/view/generalgory-waterloo-british-french-roblox-gif-20689551

[severe star]

Armour wise yeah it sucks but the 105 isnt bad, plus if NATO again, is on defense, can just dig it hull down, or also flanks

[severe star]

Nothing to do with this

[thorny patio]

The ottomans somehow managed to stay together despite everyone seeing them as a punching bag.

Legit were abused so bad by the brits and french when the Germans just gifted them two warships they took to them like a battered spouse to a outsider giving them a glimpse of affection

[warm finch]

Sherman as it actually often had a better K:D ratio despite technically being weaker.

[tough quail]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/993623517218222092/1011863187169218590/attachment.gif

[humble mulch]

Wait

[manic latch]

[severe star]

Wow what a great factual arguement

[humble mulch]

The Tacam R-2 is one of the best tanks in ww2

[severe star]

I have truly been owned

/ s

[humble mulch]

Fuck your K/Ds

Only 24 were built and they went to Budapest in them

[severe star]

Bro I'm losing braincells in here as we speak

[manic latch]

Bob Semple*

[humble mulch]

Iirc 8 survived and they were fighting Ferdinands

[autumn sorrel]

Well, the Turk get very brutal when they get cornered and thanks to their reform a few years before the Crimean war, they at least have a more coherent government

[tough quail]

"sure it's older, outgunned, out armored and outnumbered but uhh"

[manic latch]

Bob Semple 0 loss

[tough quail]

"we can put it hull down"

"its fine"

[humble mulch]

Ottomans also had the Middle East

[severe star]

You say that as if leopard 1 was gonna be the only tank on the battlefield

[humble mulch]

Disconnected enough that Europe stuff doesn’t mess with em

[warm finch]

Is this all you got? Arguing about one field instead of telling me why my view based on that one field is wrong by referring me to the other fields? Almost as if you couldn´t prove the soviet stuff was better so you stall on this and hope I stop...

[thorny patio]

Ping me if ur replying to me, gotta drive

[severe star]

Which it wasnt

[humble mulch]

And their wars were on their Europe side

[neon oyster]

Anti tank weapons rn.

[humble mulch]

I’m literally just waiting until I can mute you so you stop doing the exact same bad faith arguments

[spring briar]

(you know who you are)
(enjoy)

[warm finch]

... irony

[tough quail]

my beloveds..

[severe star]

So admitting that you're just waiting until you can abuse your power

If I get a warn for this I take I was right

[humble mulch]

“Abuse”
It’s literally my job

[manic latch]

I got a feel he would be hard Defending T-72 if it was a Nato product

[tough quail]

hey can you tell me like

[spring briar]

bro

[severe star]

You literally warned us because you didn't like the counter arguements instead of bringing up your own

[warm finch]

No your job is to moderate arguments, not fuel them

[tough quail]

in any actual technical way way a pre-1A5 Leopard is better than the early T-72s

[warm finch]

Because then it would be good.

[manic latch]

SO ITS ABOUT FLAG

[neon oyster]

T72s were good T80 even more. But again they were closer to top of the line (less so for t72)

[humble mulch]

See this is what I mean

[tough quail]

do you actually know anything about these systems

[autumn sorrel]

Bc the ratio is affect by so many probability, war isn’t something fix, you are downplay one side by mocking their design choice without looking into why they design a system that way and how it fit into their doctrine.

[warm finch]

By which I mean, it would be made like a fucking abrams

[tough quail]

oy vey

[neon oyster]

Mobilised troops would be mostly given t55s and 62s probably

[humble mulch]

Like fuck how many German tanks where lost in ww2 cause of mud

[tough quail]

i wonder if he'd argue a chieftain is better than a T-72 too

[warm finch]

Doesn´t change my statement. Predictable of you two,

[severe star]

Ah yes WW2 tanks = cold war tanks

[manic latch]

CHECKMATE

[tough quail]

forbidden

[humble mulch]

Like those are still gonna be normal issues
Or tanks getting bombed while in transport

[neon oyster]

Both sides had good and bad tanks. You go to war with the army you have , not the army you might want or wish to have

[severe star]

And they're being replaced... Lmao

[humble mulch]

No cause it’s literally happening rn

[spring briar]

I will take out Horse
with one image
observe

[humble mulch]

I’m talking about normal attrition

[ivory ridge]

the t-72 moderna is very cool

[manic latch]

Gee I wonder why you replace old tanks

[ivory ridge]

both versions of it

[warm finch]

You mean this upgraded T-72 that has western electronics in it... Now that you mention it, yes, it is likely better than the original.

[neon oyster]

If it broke down in a good location sure

[autumn sorrel]

Well, first line regiment and break through divisions definitely gonna take most of the cake. And T-55 are perfectly capable fire support AFV.

[severe star]

And don't forget they're being replaced

[ivory ridge]

30mm

[manic latch]

Something new is better than original

[ivory ridge]

or twin 20mm

[neon oyster]

A tank is a tank even if not very good

[tough quail]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[warm finch]

You seem to arguing otherwise...

[tough quail]

valid

[warm finch]

Who would have guessed eh?

[neon oyster]

Oh I forgot it must be black and white