history

[chilly osprey]

With that said, some navies had greater preferences for different gun calibers.

The Japanese, for example, did not like the 152mm gun. They wanted to focus only on building larger cruiser types (over 10,000 tons) that would be intended to act as both long-range scouts for the fleet in the Pacific, counters to American cruisers, and also a very specific role in night combat doctrine, which was basically to help destroyers break in past the American cruiser screen so they could launch torpedo attacks directly against American battleships.

[zealous vine]

Why were light cruisers almost completely absent in the KMS during the late-war?

[chilly osprey]

On the other hand, the Americans had a somewhat mediocre gun that they did use extensively on their 10,000 ton cruisers built in the interwar era, but then built a very large number of modern 152mm cruisers in the late 1930s and early 1940s, both because of treaty limits, but also because they developed a very good 152mm gun with a very high rate of fire (10 rpm cyclical, and a practical rate of fire of >5 rpm even at medium ranges).

Though with that said they did come out with a more modern 203mm gun used on the Wichita and Baltimore classes that was more satisfactory.

[zealous vine]

and iirc, this preference for 203 did lead to the Japanese having difficulty dispatching smaller flotilla units, even moreso with their sluggish 127s right?

[chilly osprey]

It was probably a mix of guns and fire control for the Japanese, but, yeah, I think it's fair to say that they had issues engaging destroyers with their 203mm guns. Samar is a pretty good example of this, as 203mm guns spent a lot of time missing American destroyers. while smaller secondary guns on the battleships seem to have had a bit of an easier time (and, oodly, the battleship main battery guns).

That said, a lot of surface actions in the Pacific happened at night, where to be honest poor use of destroyers in the early part of the war meant that a lot of American destroyers were kept on a tight leash by admirals and often were lost to torpedo salvoes from Japanese cruisers and destroyers.

[zealous vine]

I see

[chilly osprey]

Germany simply didn't build many and lost quite a few early in the war.

Discounting the training cruiser Emden, the Germans built five 15cm (really 149.1mm) light cruisers in the interwar era - all built under the limits of the Versailles treaty, which limited their standard displacement to 6,000 tons.

Due to the low displacement allowed for them, and the relatively heavy gun armament the Germans tried to fit on this displacement (nine 15cm guns), they were not very satisfactory ships, and their wartime luck was not great. Two were lost in the invasion of Norway - Königsberg to air attack and Karlsruhe to a submarine. Their sister, Köln, survived and actually spent much of the war in Norway, but did not get to take part in major actions.

Leipzig was crippled by torpedo attack late in 1939 and spent most of 1940 under repair. After this she was mostly deployed in the Baltic against the Soviets, but spent much of 1943 and 1944 inactive, mostly down to refits and crew issues. Shortly after returning to service, she was rammed by Prinz Eugen and almost cut in half. The damage was bad enough to ensure she was never repaired, and instead used as a floating battery for the rest of the war.

Nürnberg, the last German light cruiser, was also torpedoed in late 1939, but was repaired by spring of 1940.

Whoops, hit enter too soon

She spent most of the early war in the Baltic, though she was moved to Norway in late 1942, saw no action, and was sent back to the Baltic to act as a training ship. She finished out the war as a minelayer in Danish waters.

The Germans did plan to have a larger force of light cruisers in the long run - the 'M'-class - but never got the chance to build them. When the war broke out they were still working on their heavy cruiser program, and only three of the five ships under that program were actually completed.

[eternal veldt]

On the note of the US 152mm talk earlier - the US desperately wanted a 6" DP weapon pre war, especially for the Atlantas, I believe

...came far too late and with too many problems.

[manic latch]

I think Soviet 180mm story was weird

They wanted 203mm on Krasny

But she was too big

Then made it 180

Then eventually Kirov got 180 because of Krasny?

Smh

Nvm i think i found it

"At the same time, during the fighting in the Baltic in 1914-1917, the need for long-range artillery for use in mine and artillery positions was revealed . The Baltic Fleet , which was noticeably inferior to the German one in large ships, needed a gun that could effectively fire at enemy minesweepers and light cruisers and destroyers covering them , but at the same time, would be out of the reach of enemy battleships . At the same time, it was believed that it would be irrational to use guns with a caliber of 203 mm and above for such purposes"

Found the genius who ruined Kirovs

[manic latch]

October 5, 1934 in a meeting, the engineer of the Leningrad Metal Plant A. A. Florensky, who led the development of the main caliber towers, proposed installing three guns in each main battery tower in one cradle, which should have increased the mass of each tower by 30 tons. On November 5, the proposal was approved and the draft was adjusted accordingly

[chilly osprey]

Yup

[stiff mauve]

Wait is Kirov ruined again?

[manic latch]

You mean how is*

See Kirov was going to get 6 or 8 180mm guns in twin turrets

So this guy was like why don't we make it triple without changing the turret size much

So when you did that, you get one of most cramped turrets ever

Which made the reload rate horribly slow

And single cradle means if turret face gets hit, all barrels will be disabled

[hot nymph]

Thanks for the info, I greatly appreciate it!

[chilly osprey]

No problem, happy to help!

[desert agate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5jgY4T8edI&ab_channel=DefenceAustralia

[manic latch]

Man

Emile Bertin is how Kirov should have been

[tough quail]

er well

besides the part where emile doesnt really have a belt

or turret armor

[manic latch]

True

Tho she makes 40 knot thanks to it

While Kirov is around 36

[tough quail]

yeah but a stray shot from a destroyer could snap her in half so thats a slight disadvantage

kirov has like 50mm armor on her everything

emile has 30mm magazine boxes

and thats it

[manic latch]

Yeah Kirov's armor was designed against 152mm hit from medium? Long ush ranges

Bis increase it to 70mm

[tough quail]

that said the takeaway from emile should be

just put the fucking chapayev turrets on

[manic latch]

[tough quail]

you get: actual rate of fire

and they're railgun 6"ers anyway

[manic latch]

Buddyonny from Wows ye

Aka early Chapayev

[shrewd pecan]

youtube recommended me a couple of videos of Presidential briefings and news reports on Chernobyl.
https://youtu.be/sFevQANQjOI
https://youtu.be/w_uOSImPSi8

[manic latch]

F-22 🤝 T-80 having demonic activation

[tough quail]

spooky

[manic latch]

Can't beat spook level when Yars pops her tube cap

[tough quail]

to be fair the whump-whump-whump-WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA sounds really funny

[spring briar]

[thorn trail]

What dreadnought was super thin relative to its length?

like the thinnest dreadnought relatively

[manic latch]

You mean

Largest lenght vs width scale difference?

[zealous vine]

Even later on, weren't the Worcester's guns said to be unsatisfactory?

[eternal veldt]

It jams a lot to my memory, compared to the much more successful 8"/55 Mark 16 RF.

[zealous vine]

Wasn't it because they wanted to fit an autoloader onto an already complex DP design

[eternal veldt]

The 6"/47 Mark 16 itself on the Brooklyn/Clevelands are excellent guns, but not DP

The Mark 16DP on Worcester jammed frequently because of its dual hoist system

It also weighed much heavier

[zealous vine]

Ahh, alright

[zealous vine]

How do y'all think fuel capacity can play a factor in a naval arcade game?

[manic latch]

Horrible jamming, there were desires to make it triple

British one also jammed early but not bad as

I think British one had a 30 second life until jamming began, and British was fine with it since they believed that 30 second was most important area

[zealous vine]

These ones?

[manic latch]

Only ones too

3 Tigers

[ivory ridge]

tigor

[manic latch]

She has one of coolest 76mms

[zealous vine]

I guess Minotaur was fortunately kept on paper?

[manic latch]

Budget problems

[ivory ridge]

Weegee: do they tho

[manic latch]

[manic latch]

British navy was like

Goes downhill in 50s

So Big Hms Minotaur turned to Tiger

And Tiger was delayed all way to 1959

[zealous vine]

Amin

this too

[maiden citrus]

worcester jamming was due to the dual hoist, so their jamming was inconvinient but wouldn't really matter too much in a fight

[zealous vine]

Anyway

[eternal veldt]

Fuel capacity is more related to prolonged operations

[zealous vine]

Considering how some portion of a ship's tonnage is attributed to this, especially German designs, I think it should play some role

[eternal veldt]

If you can get refuelled anyway, then it's technically not a problem

[maiden citrus]

it can reflect things like balance and angles later in games possibly as your tank runs dry

[eternal veldt]

Cue the British being completely dumbfounded that the US can do parallel refuelling

[zealous vine]

But I mean, aren't they to last weeks?

[zealous vine]

Maybe a forced speed reduction during a fuel leakage? (Along with a trail)

Having a larger fuel compartment would reduce the speed effect

[eternal veldt]

Z1 just capsizes after running her tank dry

[zealous vine]

💀

[maiden citrus]

yes but arcade stuff already stretches quite a bit, like certain ships can shoot more in one match than their barrel would surive

[zealous vine]

Though, I have no idea how players could patch up a fuel leak other than WoWs' funny solve-all damage control party

[eternal veldt]

Fuel capacity is more related to power projection, operational range, that kind of stuff

It'd be highly relevant in, say, strategic games

Havent checked if its a thing in RTW3, actually

[maiden citrus]

it is

[zealous vine]

I'm aware in that case

[maiden citrus]

ships with short fuel range can't cross the atlantic for example and are coastal defense only

[eternal veldt]

Its also why proposals like sending the Littorios into the Pacific are a bit of a headache

[zealous vine]

Actually, can the fuel compartment be set ablaze??

And would that even matter at all in a compartmentalized hull?

[thorn trail]

width/length ratio

like skinniest dreadnought

[manic latch]

Even Soyuz had better range than Littorio I think

So yeah they are regional BBs

[ivory ridge]

Coastal defence BB Littorio

[zealous vine]

Battle cruisers?

[manic latch]

Mediterranean defense*

[ivory ridge]

im talking in the pacific

[manic latch]

Ah

[thorn trail]

Dreadnoughts

[ivory ridge]

Dreadnoughts is a very loose term

technically every big ship after Dreadnought is a

dreadnought

[eternal veldt]

Don't remember cases of fuel compartments set ablaze - oil leaks and subsequently recalled from action is more from what I heard

[ivory ridge]

including BCs

[thorn trail]

Hmm

[zealous vine]

Kongo?

[ivory ridge]

if you're asking instead if WW1 BBs only before the fast/treaty BBs

[eternal veldt]

Especially since fuel oil typically sits at the very bottom of a ship

[zealous vine]

or hood

[ivory ridge]

then idk

if you're including BCs it's likely to be hood

[thorn trail]

yeah pre-ww2/treaty BBs

[zealous vine]

If you want paper, Incomp is a thing

[zealous vine]

Probably Japanese BBs

Maybe Naga?

[eternal veldt]

Hell, I think the US TDS has oil between the void compartments

[manic latch]

Hood
262.3m
32.18m

Fuso
202.7m
28.7m

Hmm

Hood is long as Yamato

[zealous vine]

I mean, Yamato was pretty stubby for her magnitude

[manic latch]

She is wide

[eternal veldt]

What 1920 machinery does to a mf

[zealous vine]

She is wide yes

[eternal veldt]

The thinner the hull, the easier it is to get a higher speed

[thorn trail]

Ok found one that's thinner than Hood

[eternal veldt]

Also likely worse seakeeping

[thorn trail]

Renown's

[manic latch]

Lexington
266.4m
32.1m

[zealous vine]

Incomparable
305m
31.7m

[thorn trail]

Yeah okay by length/width, Renown's seem to be the thinnest

[manic latch]

She needs that for 35 knot

[manic latch]

242m
27.5m

[thorn trail]

yeah ratio wise Renown seems to be thinner

[manic latch]

Wait what the fuck

Stalingrad
273.6m
32m

Holy shit Stalingrad was bigger than Hood I forgot

[somber knoll]

the Renowns: I AM SPEED

Sara in her CV form: did someone called?

[zealous vine]

Them russian bows probably

[manic latch]

Kirov bow is indeed taller than Yamato hull

[zealous vine]

Honestly ain't so bad

[zealous vine]

I mean Yammy does have that dented deck design

[manic latch]

Sexy Fren

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/684721152739770371/1113956707073282199/image0.gif

[zealous vine]

What about 24's bow?

[somber knoll]

BC Lexington:

270.2
32.3
33.5 kn

[somber knoll]

btw Silver, what were the common configs of the 20s machinery to cope with engineering of the time?

[zealous vine]

I only realized a while ago how large Battlecruiser-converted CVs were when I compared models to Enty

[manic latch]

Project 24's bow height is around 19 meter?

[eternal veldt]

As far as Im aware, most nations tended to just cram all the Engines in one block (with bulkheads), and the turbines in the other block

[manic latch]

Machinery was the reason Kongo has a wide distance between stern turrets

[eternal veldt]

France and US started tinkering with alternating machinery at that time

Though to my understanding, only the US managed to attain true unit machinery starting with the North Carolina

[zealous vine]

and it just so happens to have enough space for catapults?

[manic latch]

Depend on how long you want your catapult

[somber knoll]

hm, so that explains the more compact layout of the North Carolina onwards (for a lack of a better term)

[eternal veldt]

SoDak was intentionally squished together to free up tonnage for improved protection

[manic latch]

Longer ship means faster or less need of machinery for speed, she can be longer since she lacks armor Sodaks had

[ivory ridge]

Talking about paper beam/length, the cassone study mentions it being 265m long and 32m wide

[eternal veldt]

Through IIRC changing the machinery layout, but in what way, I need to check with Friedman's again

[ivory ridge]

so just a bit less than a Lexington

[somber knoll]

True CVs as far as I can tell starts to get longer starting with the Essexes.

[thorn trail]

Ok so another paper ship with somewhat long beam/length ratio, there's the No 13 class

[eternal veldt]

And I believe it is more that new and more powerful boilers are created in more compact sizes more than anything else

[manic latch]

And less Machinery means more space for torpedo protection, can explain why NC had better than Sodaks

[thorn trail]

which is only slightly thinner than Incomparable

[eternal veldt]

The most famous example probably being the Frenchies with the Richelieus

Packing the steam magic that is the Sural boilers

[somber knoll]

Yeah, but _ H e a t_

Goodness gracious for controlled ventilation system

[eternal veldt]

Iowa needs a long hull to get 33 knots, France just doesn't give a fuck and put magic steam boilers to hit 32 knots

Without sacrificing seakeeping

[thorn trail]

Iowa's the fastest BB out there right?

No other BB/BC is faster?

[manic latch]

That exist? No

[thorn trail]

ye

[eternal veldt]

Its also why the Kongous had a significant drop in speed after their first refit to change to oil boilers

It wasnt until the 1931 refit that new kampon boilers are finally available to give them back the speed to reclassify them as "fast battleships"

[zealous vine]

Would a flash fire on a DD cause enough damage to justify abandoning ship

Say, a 127 mount mag explosion

[manic latch]

Faster than Iowa capital ships are
Indomitable Incomparable
Stalingrad
And uhh some Japanese designs against Lexington class

[thorn trail]

wait Indomitable like the Lusty carrier?

[manic latch]

Fuck

Incomparable

So many Ins

[somber knoll]

I don't think Post-Amagi stuff are planned to reach more than 32

[manic latch]

30 was golden ratio

[thorn trail]

wait where can I read about post-amagi plans

[zealous vine]

O-klasse? Saint Louis?

[manic latch]

Ohh

[zealous vine]

(french CA)

[manic latch]

O class was 35 like Stalingrad

Yeah

[eternal veldt]

Kinda?

[thorn trail]

I asked for BB/BCs tho

So O-class falls into what I was asking

[zealous vine]

Oh yah nvm

[eternal veldt]

One of Hiraga's private plans for No.13 sacrifces firepower and armour

To reach an unprecedented 36 knots breakneck speed

[thorn trail]

what the fuck

why

[zealous vine]

B-65 was planned for 34 kts

[thorn trail]

what was the point of 36

[eternal veldt]

Naturally, this is considered unacceptable, so it was dropped in favour of the more balanced alrernatives

[thorn trail]

actually what the fuck was the point of 36 for that design

[eternal veldt]

Speed

Is

Armour

[thorn trail]

Ah

[manic latch]

Faster than Iowa capital ships Incomparable
Stalingrad
And uhh some Japanese designs against Lexington class?
A variant of Number 13 Battleship
O-Class
Early B-65 with 40 knots??

[zealous vine]

Wtf 40 knots

[somber knoll]

well

[zealous vine]

Scharnhorst DD-destroyer

[thorn trail]

does the B-65 tho count as a capital ship tho

[manic latch]

35k tons

[zealous vine]

To an extent yah...?

[somber knoll]

Gijutsu-Hombu boilers were good to a certain point, but not sure if they wanted to push it even further.

[ivory ridge]

if stalingrad and the Os do

[thorn trail]

would you classify an Alaska class as a capital ship?

[ivory ridge]

yes

[manic latch]

Like honestly

Only Reason Iowa was 33 knot was because of carriers

[thorn trail]

Oh hmm

[ivory ridge]

bargain bin BC at a premium price

so yes

[manic latch]

Montana falls to 28 knots

[somber knoll]

Parts bin BC on a BB price?

yus

[zealous vine]

I mean, people argue CB being interchangeable with BC a lot

[eternal veldt]

Iowas are meant to deal with fast moving surface targets that could threaten a carrier task force

[somber knoll]

ain't the O-klasse already did that?

[eternal veldt]

Hence the Cruiser-killer roots, and the "fast" BB proposals

[zealous vine]

It is technically capital ship guns on less armor

[thorn trail]

I wonder how would a ship designed at the size of the Iowa's and Montana with the design mantra of the Standards

like the 21kt speed and what not

[zealous vine]

SoDak 1929

[manic latch]

1920*

[eternal veldt]

Read into the North Carolina proposals

All of which can only be described as batshit insane

[zealous vine]

My bad, 1920
12x16"

[eternal veldt]

Only to produce a very normal looking BB

[manic latch]

Silver
Can I navalize Do-335

[somber knoll]

bro those designs were wack

[ivory ridge]

reverse BBV

lets go

[eternal veldt]

And the asymmetrical BB layout

[cinder escarp]

When built Enterprise and Nimitz could go faster...

They're uh, kind of cheating though.

[eternal veldt]

Which I crave to see someone make

[manic latch]

Nukes nut fair

[somber knoll]

I'm interested with the all fore-turrets of the NCs

could give Richies a run for their money

[manic latch]

Damn

[zealous vine]

[cinder escarp]

That said, the late nimitzes and the refitted early ones struggle to sustain 30

There's been a lot of weight creep.

[manic latch]

Kirov Battlecruiser makes 32 knots, barely missing Iowa

[cinder escarp]

(Enterprise of course, never struggled - she has a ludicrous powerplant)

[eternal veldt]

Remember

At some point between Colorado and NC

This is on the table briefly

[cinder escarp]

Still not as insane as what G&C were smoking with their battlecarriers.

[somber knoll]

but considering how the Nelsons fared, I figure it's the most logical choice to do the more conventional layout

[manic latch]

To give back angles for all turrets ye

[eternal veldt]

G and C as in Pr 1058?

[maiden citrus]

welcome

[cinder escarp]

Yes, Gibbs and Cox.

Who had a whole series of absurd BBVs.

[eternal veldt]

Nice battlecarrier.

[zealous vine]

Yes, Kearsarge and the BBV line abomination

[eternal veldt]

Would be a shame if Buships considered it inferior to Montana.

Skill issue. 😎

[somber knoll]

lmao

Kearsarge flying Chibi Hellcats be like:

[thorn trail]

what the fuck

HUH

[cinder escarp]

Also as to this question... it is actually self-answering. Montana was supposed to be a third-generation standard, basically. It came from the same series of slow battleship studies.

[maiden citrus]

it's why montana is based

[eternal veldt]

Montana is also chonky as fuck

[zealous vine]

Montana was designed when Iowa too was

[eternal veldt]

6.1" deck slab

[cinder escarp]

Iowa came from the fast BB studies, yes.

But the slow BB studies ended up producing Montana.

[manic latch]

@tough quail rejoice
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/06/12/us-air-force-would-get-a-10-f-15-retirements-in-draft-ndaa/

[somber knoll]

[eternal veldt]

Also, keep in mind why 21/23 knots was deemed unacceptable

It wasn't carriers

It was the Nuggets

[cinder escarp]

Its because everyone else was getting faster.

[maiden citrus]

(hilarious)

[eternal veldt]

26 knots, 41cm guns

23 knots with equivalent armament is considered no

[cinder escarp]

Montana was built to be as slow as 'acceptable' for the time.

[somber knoll]

so 27-28

[thorn trail]

Wait speaking of this, were there any other plans to have like Atlanta like stacking of guns on a dreadnought

[somber knoll]

which is fair imo

[cinder escarp]

That said, the Montana studies would have changed a lot of somehow ONI manages to get good details of Yamato.

[somber knoll]

considering the THICCNESS

[eternal veldt]

No, because the topweight would be absurdly high

Unless your intention is to recreate a BB version of the Tomozuru

[cinder escarp]

Stacking, no. In terms of sheer turret farms, yes.

[thorn trail]

Like this?

[eternal veldt]

Like I said, Turret 3 and 4 would impose extreme top weight

The barbettes connecting it would also be armoured and thus, even more heavy

[zealous vine]

Protection^ ?

[cinder escarp]

The gin palace herself

HMS Agincourt

Turrets: yes.

[eternal veldt]

The draft for something like this would be extremely high, and then comes the problem of stability

[maiden citrus]

I don't think I have ever designed a ship as large as montana with my fleet speeds iirc

[cinder escarp]

More to do with caliber. I cannot fathom that C&R would accept a 16" slow BB if they knew that JP had an 18" BB.

[zealous vine]

Btw, what is Georgia?

[cinder escarp]

Georgia is Iowa with 18" guns.

[zealous vine]

Yah I know, is there a BP on it?

[cinder escarp]

(And Ohio is Montana with 18"ers)

[eternal veldt]

Georgia is in essence Iowa Scheme IV

Then crammed with newly designed 18"/47s (not mark A)

See the PR document.

[zealous vine]

457 mk1s?

no, that was /40..

When was there a /47? Didn't the 457s stop at /45?

[eternal veldt]

These are the older Mark As

[eternal veldt]

A new gun barrel would be synthesized if the 18" plan go through

[cinder escarp]

Mark A was indeed just a prototype for testing because "why not". The BuOrd would have designed a new gun, probably a scaled-up Mark 7, if production was needed.

[thorn trail]

ok what's the like reasoning why Yamato's deck curved

[cinder escarp]

To save weight

[thorn trail]

how did that save weight?

[eternal veldt]

You eliminate the shelter deck entirely.

Notice how other Japanese ships had their secondary batteries raised one level.

[zealous vine]

It is basically dented down 1 deck

[thorn trail]

Huh

[zealous vine]

It's just weight savings

[cinder escarp]

(Yes, as huge and heavy as Yammy is - all of IJN's weight saving tricks excluding welding were applied to her design. Welding was exlcuded due to the 4th funny incident)

[zealous vine]

also to lower the 460mm

[thorn trail]

wait how did welding lead to the 4th fleet incident?

[manic latch]

Which side is heavier?

[eternal veldt]

The welds cracked in heavy weather.

Ryujo's entire compass platform and bridge section literally caved in from the waves.

[zealous vine]

Why did I only know about this drawing now

[cinder escarp]

A bunch of sub-par welds cracked or burst in the typhoon. And instead of pressing through and developing more experience in welding, they just returned to riveting.

(Every navy went through bad welds transitioning to welding, it's a learning process)

[eternal veldt]

Forgot if it is Ryuujou or Houshou were basically fighting for their lives due to water ingress.

And if anything, Taihou's designer himself admits that weld crack formed from Albacore's torpedo may have caused the avgas leaks in the first place

[zealous vine]

Would a flash fire on a DD cause enough damage to justify abandoning ship

[eternal veldt]

Forgot if it is the Mogamis that has their plates pop upon firing

[cinder escarp]

That said, the IJN expecting their ships to just weather the typhoon is nuts. Reconstructions of it show it was one hell of a storm, that would have beaten up any navy's ships.

[cinder escarp]

It was. Part of the reason they had to reinforce them.

[eternal veldt]

The Tomozuru and Fourth fleet incidents imo are somewhat blessings in disguise

[thorn trail]

Actually stupid ass question. How possible would it be to design gun-launched missiles for battleship guns ala gun launched ATGMs that were planned for some tank designs in the Cold War

[eternal veldt]

Gave the IJN sufficient time to revise their designs and refit their ships so they would be less affected in war time

(as had happened with Cobra, but for different reasons)

[cinder escarp]

Also reconstructions show that Tomozuru wasn't as unstable as they thought, she wouldn't have flipped had the commander not ordered a crazy turn perpindicular to the flow.

[eternal veldt]

Some other ships are just disasters waiting to happen though

Hatsuharu's original configuration comes to mind

[cinder escarp]

Oh there were plenty of real stinkers, but amusingly they overcorrected for both the 4th fleet incident and Tomozuru.

[eternal veldt]

Cram everything we have on a Fubuki onto a hull 250 tons smaller, yes yes

[cinder escarp]

Mogamemes as built were also a disaster waiting to happen structurally, much like the Courageous class FIsher built.

[eternal veldt]

Mogami's doubly more hilarious when you realize how big they originally wanted the superstructure to be

[zealous vine]

Would you consider 5x3 152s to be an ideal arrangement

in general

[thorn trail]

uh what is this supposed to represent?

[eternal veldt]

Massive massive 4head

[eternal veldt]

Dotted line: Mogami's tower, as designed

Shaded line: as built

[thorn trail]

why smol

[eternal veldt]

Excessive top weight

(and the ships generally being overweight already)

[zealous vine]

Actual vs intended

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMl4KzbFPBI

[cinder escarp]

It would fit right in with the Takaos and Myokos.

[cinder escarp]

Not... really?

[somber knoll]

quite heavy for sure.

Edinburgh prelims had 4x3, but I think it was considered too finicky (for a CL)?

[tough quail]

https://news.usni.org/2023/06/12/hasc-agrees-to-navys-plans-to-shed-littoral-combat-ships-moves-to-abolish-cape

lol

[manic latch]

Man imagine being her engineer

You created the most problematic warship class of US navy after decades

[tough quail]

the CAPE thing is goofier

[eternal veldt]

About this: if the magazine detonates and the ship is underway, there is a chance.

However, a couple destroyers, like Selfridge, still survived to fight.

Shaw is another one, and fortunately occupied a floating drydock at the time.

[zealous vine]

should've asked this sooner, but what are the ways to mission-kill a ship?

[eternal veldt]

Impairing their offensive ability or impeding its seagoing ability are two ways

[zealous vine]

so

1. knocking out fire control capability
2. knock out machinery/propulsion
3. drain fuel
4. knock out a lot of crew numbers
5. severe weather
6. excessive fires

[eternal veldt]

Not just guns, the directors and its finnicky systems is already sufficient, especially in heavy weathers

[zealous vine]

dont the turrets have RFs?

[eternal veldt]

Case in point of Scharnhorst having her director knocked out and thus nearly completely blind in a snowstorm during the Battle of North Cape, compelling her to disengage

[zealous vine]

ah

[alpine onyx]

Turret rangefinders can also be knocked out

Gneisenau had that happen to her when one of Renown's shells hit the turret roof

[spring briar]

Dunkek moment

[ivory ridge]

The same company is in charge of the connies

[zealous vine]

Ik it ain't relevant but I feel compelled to say this

Had a dream where ww2 ships could neutral steer themselves

[remote monolith]

@desert agate https://www.businessinsider.com/australian-dinosaur-graveyard-find-sparks-paleontological-revolution-2023-6

[autumn sorrel]

Ancient mud pit?

[subtle prawn]

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_june_2023_global_security_army_industry/norwegian_army_to_get_54_redesignated_leopard_2a8_nor_mbts.html

[subtle prawn]

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/06/denmark-considering-military-submarines-after-almost-20-year-gap-danish-lawmaker/

[subtle prawn]

A Victor B 2 in the landing pattern with a Blue Steel in its bomb-bay. Note that the missile’s lower fin has folded to port as the aircraft’s wheels were lowered to give adequate ground clearance; it was still not good though, despite this feature. (Author’s collection)

Valiant B 1s at RAF Gaydon; they were faster and could fly higher but their weapon systems offered little advance over the Washingtons, Lincolns and Lancasters they replaced. (Author’s collection)

[manic latch]

@tough quail pick your favorite wheels. T-64 or T-80

Advantages of T-64 ones?

Cuts mud Like knife, metal tip instead rubber

Cons?

Vibration when on Asphalt
Sinks deep into mud when track is gone

T-80 one pros are reverse as you see

[tough quail]

hrm

fooooormer probably?

[spring briar]

hronse

french 305mm APC from 1908

[manic latch]

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/06/12/pentagon-to-halt-upgraded-f-35-deliveries-in-july-amid-software-woes/

[tough quail]

yaes

[zealous vine]

Other than on lightly armored ships, how can solely HE fatally damage a ship?

[manic latch]

Fire

Or mission kill it by killing everything soft

@ivory ridge

https://youtu.be/LD5_FSolD7c

[ivory ridge]

[desert agate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se8vHkpD-Wo&ab_channel=RAAFDocumentaries

this narrators accent is all over the place stg

I do appreciate the phrases "rapidly depart controlled flight" and "unplanned change of flight direction"

[maiden citrus]

lol

[ivory ridge]

https://twitter.com/NichoConcu/status/1668924248377774082?t=sDGfblvP6f93OexpKRDBag&s=19

A-129 Mangusta (@NichoConcu)

🇮🇹Fiat G.91R takes to the skies for the first time once again today after decades of it being out of service. The work done by everyone involved finally materialising after nearly 3 years of the aircraft undergoing restoration. Going to be a treat for anyone going to the airshow.

Twitter · Jun 14, 2023, 10:12 AM

[autumn sorrel]

What was that funky jet fighter with internal rocket bay that can be open out like F-22 and F-35?

[thin meteor]

I think that was the F-102

[desert agate]

English Electric Lightning?

[thin meteor]

Pretty sure the Electric Lightning doesn’t have a internal weapons bay

[desert agate]

as a matter of fact, it does

[thin meteor]

Guess I learn something new every day

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, that the one

[desert agate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HJRmLGkno0&ab_channel=TheAustralianArmour%26ArtilleryMuseum

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Dlim-THOlw

[autumn sorrel]

What's the challenge in restoring it? Armor plate or engine?

[desert agate]

yes

theyve been sitting in a field for the last 40 odd years

had trees and shit growing through them

the fact that the final drives on the one with tracks werent siezed was amazing

[autumn sorrel]

I guess, they have to sand out all the rust

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/ronkainen7k15/status/1668824585889005568

Ronkainen (@ronkainen7k15)

Rheinmetall 155mm L60 barrel for new generation SPH

Likes

269

Twitter · Jun 14, 2023, 3:36 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAf-Umy7Qgo

[tough quail]

absolute chads

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYeb5xyeqNM

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1669114109571235841

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 2000, USS Buchanan (DDG-14) proved to be a tough ship. During RIMPAC, Buchanan was hit by 3 Hellfire missiles, 3 Harpoon missiles and a GBU-24 laser guided bomb but still stayed afloat. The Charles F. Adams-class destroyer had to be scuttled with 200 lbs of C-4.

▶ Play video

Twitter · Jun 14, 2023, 10:46 PM

[thorn trail]

So this has been in my mind for a while now: The Race to the Sea in ww1 ended indecisively right? If so, what would have happened if one side actually managed to "win" the Race to the Sea?

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2023/06/14/hasc-bill-calls-for-secnav-to-study-hypersonic-weapons-for-more-warships-merging-army-and-navy-watercraft-programs

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyk6XNpLJ4s

[strong plank]

3000 studies of the USN

[dapper parcel]

As if their previous L52 wasn't long enough

They actually increase chamber volume huh

[autumn sorrel]

Nothing, the trench line will still exist and it still gonna be yr of dumb fighting like irl

[somber knoll]

Anyone have links to any existent plans to refit the Nelsons?

[eternal veldt]

Check Norman Friedman's British battleships.

A proposal was once given for the Nelsons to remove their entire 152mm secondary battery and replaced with US 5"/38s.

[manic latch]

I was thinking about such Soyuz refit concept like that as well but

Then I realised the problems of 5"

Soviets used 130mm, and delivery of those turrets wouldn't be easy at all

Especially given she would be stuck in Leningrad

So yeah no US refits for her

She would get US or British radars to at least

[tough quail]

putting 5"/38s on non-us ships is grotesque anyway

every proposal looks aesthetically horrid

its like like to mix peanut butter and chicken marsala these tastes do not go together

[eternal veldt]

Counterpoint: Delhi

Checkmate

[subtle prawn]

Dammit, I was going to mention Delhi

[eternal veldt]

Split looks alright as well too I guess

[tough quail]

delhi works because it's the main battery tbf

when its secondaries

HEUGH

[humble mulch]

Idk I think it wouldn't look that bad on the Nelson's

Secbats kinda just exist all the way in the back so the different styles shouldn't clash too much

[tough quail]

you're going to exist all the way in the back when im done with you

whatever the fuck that means i havent decided yet

[dapper parcel]

5"/38 being much smaller than 6"/50 means it'll get even more cursd than it already is

[eternal veldt]

If I recall, the entire area gets rebuilt, into bulkheads like Maryland

Oh, it was worse

Before the 8 x 2 5"/38 proposal

It was 4 x 2 5.25"

Amazing

[somber knoll]

ew

[eternal veldt]

Directors to be replaced by mark 37s too

Tbh, not sure about the 152s in the first place

25mm plating, nilch barbette protection

Very diejoubu

[somber knoll]

SUS

[tough quail]

u see de richelieu class bad because 6" magazine under gods thickest battleship deck could explod

meanwhile, nelson

[eternal veldt]

I mean, its more how it has a combined total of uh

3600 rounds in total

Because you clearly need 400 rounds per gun

And in Nelson's defence, they're kinda trying to stay under 35k

[tough quail]

get good

[eternal veldt]

Ok, 37k fatty

43k after borgor diet

[tough quail]

i reiterate

get good

[eternal veldt]

And tbh, there are other criticism towards the Richelieus other than ammo load, but I think it has been discussed before

Merits too, of course

[spring briar]

What

[ivory ridge]

[maiden citrus]

[eternal veldt]

You know the list someone on Drach's server provided -harsh and nitpicky as it is

and the list of problems mentioned at Dakar

[spring briar]

Mattzo’s?

[eternal veldt]

Yes.

[spring briar]

Well the best counterpoint is just to mention she didnt have time to even get properly worked up

No firing trials either

[eternal veldt]

Valid, it's the on paper vs irl thing as you said

[ivory ridge]

https://twitter.com/nichoconcu/status/1669275458037329920?s=46&t=VskD77pvFSopBzS65us6aA

A-129 Mangusta (@NichoConcu)

Almost ready.

Twitter · Jun 15, 2023, 9:27 AM

[thorn trail]

Idt that would be the case tho. One of the reasons the trench fighting started was because outflanking maneuvers done in the Race to the Sea failed to produce a breakthrough. So i was wondering if a decisive victory in the flanking maneuvers would have shortened the war

[thorn trail]

[manic latch]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/tempest-fighter-begins-to-take-shape-with-ejection-seat-tests

[neon oyster]

Never though it’d get anywhere, this is already further than I expected

[ivory ridge]

https://www.naviearmatori.net/albums/userpics/19108/1499267308.jpg

one of the worst things ive ever seen

[chilly osprey]

Life as a test ship

She had a 127/54C mounted forward for tests before the 305mm mortar

[twilit anchor]

Alaska and Nevada?

[eternal veldt]

No, South Dakota and Colorado, October 1945 in San Francisco.

[twilit anchor]

Ah my bad idk usn ships well

[remote monolith]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65924583

yet another prehistoric UK win

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9FaGJhDDdk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CMVbASedPk

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gckp4qBug-Y

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTfqAWj2D0M

[tribal mortar]

Tirpitz during a trial run in the Baltic Sea in the summer of 1941.

[spring briar]

Just Tirpitz

KMS wasn't added

[spring briar]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/battlefield/images/c/c1/AK-12.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130821033023

@manic latch @tough quail

The AK-12 we wanted

[tough quail]

pain

it looks so nice and chunky

[manic latch]

Hot

Also I "might" go blackout for few days or * so don't be scared in a potential silence

Likely few days

[shrewd pecan]

Baltic Mandatory service

[lunar sand]

If battleships really weren't all that in WW2

Why did the Atlantic countries put such a big focus on keeping track of them

[wintry moat]

Cuz a 15 inch gun hitting a transport isn’t good for the Allies

[lunar sand]

Yeah but even the Axis seemed to focus more on the KGVs/QEs than they did the Lusty sisters

[tough quail]

because they were all that and people misunderstand enormous amounts of the cv/bb balance of power

and conflate japan fighting a losing war against an entire continent as "battleships bad"

or more accurately conflate it with "carriers are perfect weapons of war with no downsides ever"

[lunar sand]

Japan seemed to focus on BBs too but they at least seemed to also be very concerned as to the location of the CVs

[twilit anchor]

The IJN didn't want BB but the IJA which had more political power than them wanted BBs

[spring briar]

If the IJN didn’t want BB’s, why tf did they literally make a 70k ton BB in the late 30’s

No wait

[twilit anchor]

Again the IJA

[spring briar]

Three of them

No, not the IJA lol

[twilit anchor]

They wanted stuff to escorts troops and transport

[spring briar]

…

[twilit anchor]

IJN got shafted alot but the emperor

[spring briar]

IJN doctrin aka kantai kessen literally is based on having BB’s

[lunar sand]

What do you guys feel was the most practical BB for its cost

[spring briar]

We’d need to know the cost for every BB first

Good luck with that

[lunar sand]

Then eliminate the cost, just what design was the most practical. When did they become over the top and unnecessary

[twilit anchor]

Also BBs classification is also dependent on what country

[spring briar]

In any case it’s probably the treaty battleships

[twilit anchor]

Kongo is often argued weather it's a CB or BB

[spring briar]

The Japanese had very clear classification for the Kongos

So it doesn’t need to be argued

[twilit anchor]

It's CB but people still call it a BB

[spring briar]

Also you mean BB/BC

Not CB

CB is large cruiser

[twilit anchor]

Schran is a BB

[spring briar]

People often call them fast battleships

But their belts are even thinner than those on renown and repulse

[twilit anchor]

It's not really a bb at all tho

[spring briar]

Which are themselves battlecruisers

Hence kongo is definitely a battlecruiser

[lunar sand]

I have another question

[spring briar]

And the scharnhorsts are battleships

Since the germs called them as such
And their armor supports it

[twilit anchor]

Yeah

[lunar sand]

What was the reasoning between the different nations gun mount designs

The Venetos, Carolinas and Iowas stuck to a triple gun turret

Most BBs used Dual gun mounts

Then the French and KGVs used quad gun mounts

[twilit anchor]

Accuracy shell size ship size

If I remember correctly triple mounts were the most accurate but also less reliable?

[thorn trail]

for the French and KGV iirc it was cramming the most guns in the least citadel length as possible, reducing armor needed and weight

But to be sure let me ping @eternal veldt and @spiral cedar

[twilit anchor]

Think i took to mant pain killers

[spiral cedar]

I'm not sure who told you that, but whoever they are, don't listen to them, because they're 100% wrong

[twilit anchor]

Ah

[grave ravine]

AFAIK while they officially reclassified them as fast battleships when they got refitted, in informal correspondence IJN admirals still called them BCs

[spring briar]

Told ya

[twilit anchor]

I'm also like on 4 pain killers rn

[spring briar]

Why

[twilit anchor]

Really bad headache

[spring briar]

But fucking 4

[twilit anchor]

It's only 200mg I think?

Each

[thorn trail]

200mg

that's a lot wtf

[twilit anchor]

I have had 800mg befor

[thorn trail]

usually my doctor recommends only up to like 2 at most per day if the dosage is 200mg

[twilit anchor]

My body is weird

[ivory ridge]

"the IJN built BBs because of the IJA" is defnitely a new take ive never seen

[twilit anchor]

I also hate the IJA so anything to blame them ill take

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/metal-gear-rising-metal-gear-rising-revengeance-senator-armstrong-revengeance-i-made-it-the-fuck-up-gif-25029602

[twilit anchor]

True

[ivory ridge]

i too make up facts about my enemies to hate them more

[spring briar]

“Don’t siege Leningrad, take it immediately”

[ivory ridge]

[maiden citrus]

the japanese wanted to make hot dogs illegal

[twilit anchor]

I can see them doing that

[spring briar]

The CIA fucking killed Kennedy

Oh wait

That’s actually true

Fuck

[deep apex]

Oh god fucking conspiracy theorists...

[spring briar]

Where?

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/684721152739770371/1113956707073282199/image0.gif

[twilit anchor]

My parents think the government had a hand in 9/11

[spring briar]

Tomdog

[twilit anchor]

We should bring back BB naval warfare

[shrewd pecan]

god no

[thorn trail]

nah bring back wooden sail

[spring briar]

Both committed war crimes so I don’t like either

[thorn trail]

or rather roman vs carthage naval warfare

bring back ramming and boarding ships

[spring briar]

Return to trireme

Powered by sail

And slaves

Truly a modern solution

[deep apex]

I committed a crime so horrid it made a veteran cry

I drank Pepsi from a Coca-Cola glass.

[spring briar]

Load the catapulta

Anyways have this neat picture of Suffren

[maiden citrus]

bring back ramming

[spring briar]

Bring hotdog

To maka

[maiden citrus]

true

[spring briar]

[maiden citrus]

cargohold of the ship put to good use

[spring briar]

Bring back dunkek

[maiden citrus]

also true

[spring briar]

I for one am all for bringing back coastal bombardments

[thorn trail]

wait what ship is that supposed to be bombarding the shore?

[spring briar]

HMS Marlborough

[thorn trail]

what about that carrier thing in the background?

which ship is that supposed to be

[shrewd pecan]

Saratoga

[spring briar]

Saratoga/Lexington

As well

[shrewd pecan]

(I'm tired

[spring briar]

Its ok

[shrewd pecan]

(my brain is rotting tryna get my F-14B with LANTIRN into a ground battle

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/13MikeGooding/status/1669821533437538308

Mike Gooding 13News Now (@13MikeGooding)

Report from @norfolkfireresc of fire aboard Battleship Wisconsin. During heavy storm, water penetrated into the ship causing a "small electrical fire," resulting in smoke several levels down on the ship. "Very minor damage." @13NewsNow

Twitter · Jun 16, 2023, 9:37 PM

[spring briar]

No worries, they’ve got 3 spares

[spiral cedar]

More guns per turret means that, for an equal amount of firepower, you can use fewer turrets and barbettes. This means weight and space savings, especially since it shortens the citadel. The downsides are multi-part. For one, early triple turrets tended to be more cramped than twins, meaning closer barrel spacing causing more shell interference and more dispersion. This was fixed in most navies in the interwar period. Another issue was the unique design of a given turret; German turret design required more space for hoists so triples did not really save weight compared to twins. And as for quads, you have to consider whether you want a quad of a given caliber or a twin or triple of a larger caliber—bigger guns reduce the enemy's immune zone after all. So triples were a good intermediate choice for treaty era ships, but with some navies choosing twins or quads due to various limitations (German hoists, British 14" gun limits) or objectives (French wanted to minimize armament weight and armored length to increase citadel armor).

[lunar sand]

I see

[spiral cedar]

Triples (compared to twins) are lighter and thus easier to armor heavily, but they're not more accurate. In fact, early on they were often less accurate, as cramming more guns closer together often caused shells to interfere with each other mid-flight, worsening dispersion. This was a fixable problem (the most accurate BB guns of WWII were triples, but not because they were triples) but was a major issue for early triples, such as on the US Standard battleships early in their careers. As for reliability, that's more due to the design of the turret than the number of guns in it, realistically.

[maiden citrus]

an interesting tidbit for twins is I have heard that the stress to the hull is significantly lighter due to smaller barbette sizes, though I've seen almost no discussion about such a thing more than in passing

[subtle prawn]

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230616-uruguay-to-melt-nazi-bronze-eagle-recast-it-as-peace-dove

(Admiral Graf Spee is not a DD, dammit)

[ivory ridge]

inside it's even worse

[eternal veldt]

Adding to this, another consideration is the ongoing firing practices of that nation.

The Royal Navy and Japanese to my knowledge generally preferred twins and quads over that of triples, due to their system of firing half-salvos of one gun from each turret during rangefinding. Having one more gun per turret for some reason didn't ring well with them, until the later designs.

[eternal veldt]

As for this, the major reason why the Atlantic seems to focus heavily on battleships is because the opposing forces had quite literally.....no completed carriers.

Graf Zeppelin is barely complete, a small messup in the casemate system, and had a manhandled launching system thanks to the uncooperative fatass that is Goering.

Aquila is undergoing conversion, which I am certain Phoenix right now will address.

[chilly osprey]

Franky I would even reject the idea that battleships weren't 'all that' in WWII.

They were still incredibly relevant in many theaters and concentrated carrier strike capability took a while to manifest in a way that made it a truly credible anti-shipping capability.

[eternal veldt]

Comparatively, Japan had multiple carriers built during the interwar years, experimenting with different ones.

[chilly osprey]

They were clearly no longer everything and effective use of airpower was absolutely decisive, but they were still very relevant.

[eternal veldt]

Notable ones include the Ryuujou, an attempt to use the loopholes created in the Washington Naval Treaty, which was closed in the London Naval Treaty (and generally didn't work out), and the Shoukaku class, arguably one of the best carriers put to sea by Japan after their withdrawal from the treaties entirely.

As for the US, it's fairly well known at this point that you have the converted Lexingtons, the 3 Yorktowns, Wasp, and Ranger, all except the relatively shittier ranger were deployed to the Pacific against the Japanese until war's end or otherwise lost.

[thorn trail]

would you say the Shoukaku's the best of the pre-war carriers?

[eternal veldt]

That's why you have a massive amount of carrier battles in the Pacific compared to the Atlantic because they are used as centrepieces by their navy

even though Japan is heavily obsessed with the Kantai Kessen strategy, they were most certainly not ignorant of carrier power, and fielded one of the most destructive, seasoned carrier forces in the world up until the Battle of Midway with the Kido Butai.

[eternal veldt]

I think it's a bit hard to argue otherwise considering others were at least trying to follow the treaty limits and not just produce 30,000 ton monsters until 1940.

[chilly osprey]

[eternal veldt]

Zuikaku's construction history was quite wild, though.

A few workers got lost inside the dark ship, which was like a maze, then died after intoxicating gases got them

then nearly capsized in a typhoon because a porthole window was open

There is also Ryuujou's officer of the watch being inebriated and chasing after dockyard workers like a mad dog during the final phases, but we'll iignore that for now

[chilly osprey]

Ah, yeah, well, to be honest, not sure how much I can add here that's relevant to the point. The RM was trying to procure a carrier for a while, it kept on not happening because of air force memes and budget priority, and Aquila ended up being an emergency conversion that simply wasn't going to be ready in time to be relevant in the war.

The reality was that either the RM or KM, if they were going to use carriers in WWII, needed to have their first carriers completed at least 3-4 years before the war just so they could actually figure out flight operations and how to use carriers, even with the aid of Japanese input.

[eternal veldt]

It's also why the second carrier (post-war literature giving the name of Peter Strasser) of the KM is staggered in construction; experiences learnt in Graf Zeppelin was hoped to be integrated

Inlcuding elimination of casemates

But don't tell that to someone though, Graf Zeppelin is going to engage British CLs fine

[dapper parcel]

Shoukaku-class was a very good design, but was also expensive
There's a reason why they go back to Hiryuu-class template for the subsequent Unryuu-class

[eternal veldt]

expensive and complex to build, something unacceptable after Midway

similar reason why the G15s were canned after 1943, because the estimated completion dates are, uh....

[thorn trail]

So what would be the best balance of the pre-war carriers in terms of cost and design

[dapper parcel]

This happens more often than you might think, even today in less regulated yards

At least they didn't blow the ship due to welding over vapor accumulation

[eternal veldt]

I'm sure. Zuikaku's internals at that time were only lit up with a few lit up lamps too

And at the very least, it's not Shinano level bad

C h i l d l a b o u r

[maiden citrus]

those mutsuckis gotta practice for the athletics required to run up to a tank with a stick somehow

[thorn trail]

Wait

Shinano's construction used child labour?

Where can I actually read upon this

[eternal veldt]

It was everyone

Secondary school student? Get in the pit

You're a torpedo officer, not well versed in carrier ops? Get in the pit

You don't know how to read blueprints and weld the joints together? Get in the fucking pit

Japanese sources, unfortunately

Mine was from a Chinese one, compiled from Japanese sources

[thorn trail]

I am honestly not surprised they went the child labour route

[eternal veldt]

I wish there was an English book as detailed as the Japanese cruisers by Lacroix and Wells on the other ship types

Lengerer only covers the Yamatos, sadly

[eternal veldt]

They are kinda desperate to get another carrier working asap

Especially after a 3 month old baby got gas attacked by a fish then blown up due to sheer incomptence from the admiral and the crew

[chilly osprey]

Honestly I'm surprised there hasn't been more published in English on the IJN

With the amount of American naval enthusiasts interesting in the Pacific war, and the, uh, large amount of weebs out there - it seems like there are plenty of potential buyers.

[eternal veldt]

The main problem is that the naval enthusiast circle is

Extremely niche

[chilly osprey]

I mean, heck, the Pacific isn't even my main thing and nor am I much of a weeb, but holy shit I'd be all over more LaCroix & Wells quality stuff on the IJN.

[dapper parcel]

There's even a book series detailing every subsystem of Japanese ships, in Japanese ofc
Unfortunately there's only like less than 100 copies printed or something

[thorn trail]

got gas?

[eternal veldt]

Albacore and Taihou

[thorn trail]

oh wait

wait lmfao my brain didn't comprehend that sentence

I thought "baby got gas" was a reference to something

[eternal veldt]

Which one? Would like to see if I can get my hands on it.

[thorn trail]

like it's a special term or smth

[chilly osprey]

Lol

[dapper parcel]

I can't remember unfortunately
I asked about it once in WoWS Supertester internal discord, obviously I no longer have access there

[eternal veldt]

Monthly reminder of this depression

[eternal veldt]

Unfortunate. Honestly, even Japanese model magazines are extremely detailed on the ships.

[dapper parcel]

Can't complain when they literally have magazine titled like this

[chilly osprey]

XD

[eternal veldt]

From Tamiya of all people

I still have that CAD book on almost every Japanese WW2 naval gun/torp launcher

Was an impulse purchase at that time, now a prized posession

[chilly osprey]

Oh, yeah, the carrier discussion reminds me

Once upon a time, I tried to hash out an alternative pre-war procurement program for the RM, running on the assumption that the air force would not get in the way of aircraft procurement of the navy and a carrier effort.

Basic gist of it would be a scenario where Bernotti isn't sidelined (and ideally even becomes CSMM in 1933/34...), and continues his carrier drive outlined in 1927.

In this alternative timeline, the 1929/30 program includes an order for a 15,000-ton carrier - Bonfiglietti's design - in place of the '10,000-ton' cruiser Bolzano. This carrier - we'll call her 'Falco' is thus laid down by Ansaldo in June of 1930, launched within two years, and completed probably by the end of 1934.

In the meantime, the capital ship program continues as planned, with the Cavour rebuilds ordered in response to to Dunkerque and the Littorio-class ordered in response to Strasbourg.

In the meantime, 'Falco' has had several years of operations by the time, influcing future Italian carrier designs now that they have more of an idea of what to expect from carrier operations. Duly, in 1937, a new pair of carriers (between 15,000 and 22,000 tons) are ordered for the 1937/38 program, in place of the order to rebuild the Duilio-class. Impero and Roma are still ordered in 1938, but will have to follow the two carriers ordered in 1937 and laid down in 1938.

With the absence of the Duilio rebuilds and a cutback in the ocean-going submarine program (and the Capitani Romani, which I don't think Bernotti would be in favor of), Littorio and Vittorio Veneto enter service sooner than expected. The two new carriers are launched in late 1939, allowing Impero and Roma to be laid down in 1940, which obviously would push their completion dates back by about two years versus OTL. The two new carriers should both complete in mid-1941, and complete work-up by the end of that year.

[eternal veldt]

Isn't the whole point of the Duilio rebuilds is to get another homogenous division ala Cavour?

[chilly osprey]

Pretty much, yeah. They wanted to be able to add a third ship at a minimum.

[eternal veldt]

In this case, would the Duilios be scrapped?

[chilly osprey]

Yes

They're a lot of high quality steel

[thorn trail]

Anywhere I can read about Project 686? The one that's the basis for Atlantico in WoWs

[eternal veldt]

Page 137

[chilly osprey]

The long and short of it is that it would technically give the RM a carrier and four battleships - two of which are quite modern - on hand and fully operational by June 1940. Any new battleships would be long in coming - in fact, it's more likely they're not seeing either of the second pair of Littorio's enter service if WWII breaks out and goes mostly as it did OTL - but they stand a good chance of having a new pair of carriers to put into service for the 1942 naval actions.

Which could be pretty spicy for some of the convoy battles that spring and summer.

[eternal veldt]

No need to get bombed again by friendlies like Punta Stilo

[chilly osprey]

Indeed. Heck, if this is taking place in a context where the RM has control over its own naval aviation, the British might be coming under (relatively) large scale torpedo bomber attack starting in the summer of 1940.

Nevermind them being able to bring a carrier and two battleships that can more than slug it out with any of the British 15" ships to the fight in the summer of 1940 makes the balance of power considerably different.

[eternal veldt]

I'd be worried for the QEs that go up against Littorio

especially Barham, which wasn't reconstructed/reinforced with armour

or Renown, as it nearly happened at Spartivento

[chilly osprey]

Yup

[eternal veldt]

Though the question remains is if Supermarina remains as conservative as they did

as part of why they are less aggressive with the Littorios is the fear of losing them and being virtually irreplaceable

and the prospects of future night battles are of course, daunted by the defeat at Matapan

[chilly osprey]

It would strongly depend on the risk/reward they assess for each encounter.

Ex, you do see them send out the Littorio's a whole bunch early in the war with the intent to intercept British surface forces, but you still had to deal with the contradictory orders - especially when the Littorio's were being send out while still working up - and uncertainty caused by solidly 'meh' air recon. They also were very apprehensive about facing a force supported by a carrier, as they were keenly aware of how ineffective the Regia Aeronautica was when it came to supporting them.

In this scenario, they actually have the ability to bring a carrier with them, for organic air cover and recon that they can actually trust, and likewise they should also have a more robust (and better trained) land-based aerial reconnaissance. This would help them be more informed with their decisions, and also certainly make them less concerned about the presence of enemy carriers so long as their own is available.

[eternal veldt]

Right, I don't remember if it was Gavdos or not that Iachino was supplied with bad intel.

With the British forces, Warspite noted in particular, to be at Alexandria while the whole force is actually already underway

[chilly osprey]

So, say, if it comes down to 'Force H is sailing with Ark Royal, Illustrious, Hood, Renown, and the two Nelson's - I think they'd probably say "fuck that"

If it's three to four QE's supported by Eagle in the Eastern Med, that's a bit of a difference calculus.

[eternal veldt]

Throw the raid of Alexandria into account too, and you have uh.... 2-3 older 15" battleships?

Should be manageable then, assuming no false reports and the like.

[chilly osprey]

It's complicated ™️

There's a thread on Drach's server where I got into detail on the whole mess that was 'what did the RM know and when' aspect of the operation

#1106991461532184637 message

I'll copy over screenshots here, but that's the link to the thread

[thorn trail]

Ok thanks. So it was one of the brazilian admirals who concocted that plan

first off

what was the reasoning

[eternal veldt]

I read it over there, thanks for the comprehensive reasoning.

[thorn trail]

@eternal veldt Was there any other ships with very big secondary weapons designed like in Project 686

[eternal veldt]

They were the largest, as far as I can recall.

Allegedly, A-150 would call for at least 8 20.3cm guns, in an unknown configuration.

[thorn trail]

Wait what was that fake battleship design that the USSR tried to push as true?

[eternal veldt]

K-1000?

[chilly osprey]

K-1000 was the name, I believe

Definitely started with a K at least

[eternal veldt]

K indeed, not S.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-1000_battleship

Not the first case of bad intelligence, though I think this one is unique in the fact that the accused one was intentionally purporting it for political purposes

[thorn trail]

assuming this was real and actually built, would the US have countered with their own version?

[eternal veldt]

The article already mentions Kentucky as being part of BBG-1.

[chilly osprey]

So, yeah, there was mixed intel as far as whether or not the British battleships were at sea or not but it didn't have a huge influence on the operation being launched in the first place. IMO it's hard to predict how differently the operation might have gone if they had their own carrier with them able to provide air cover, as Iachino may have been more bold in the face of a carrier and thought to try and keep after the British surface ships he knew about.

Hard to say, really.

[eternal veldt]

From what I've read, Sansonetti seems to be a bit too aggressive himself and chased down the limping British cruiser force too hard?

[chilly osprey]

Yeah

He basically chased that force halfway from Greece to Africa, despite being told not to do so

[eternal veldt]

Though given a carrier with more extensive air searches, I think the operation could have been smoother for Iachino - at least without the disadvantage of his force's positions being known while the enemy isn't.

Something something, unanswered first strike.

Just checking - did the RM catapult off their planes to do their own recon search during that time?

Given the extensive amount of seaplanes on board the cruisers and VV herself, it should have been feasible to do so.

[chilly osprey]

They did, yeah.

Vittorio Veneto's Ro.43, for example, was launched at 06.00 on 28 March, to cover a 20 by 100 mile search 'box' from Gavdos to Alexandria. This aircraft found the British cruiser force at 06.35, which lead Iachino to not cancel the mission, as he had been about to do, and moved to intercept the force, ordering Sansonetti's 3rd Div to draw them in.

Which, of course, he did not do, and instead started the chase towards the Britsh battleships.

[eternal veldt]

Sorry, missed it above.

So the disaster at Matapan had partially to do with Sansonetti

[chilly osprey]

No worries, I didn't specify in the text above, so that's also on me

[lunar sand]

Why are they seemingly interchangeably referred to as the Vittorios and Littorios

[chilly osprey]

I think it's fair to argue that in part, he was.

Not the fundamental reason, but one of the factors that lead towards what it ultimately turned into.

[eternal veldt]

VV was launched earlier than Littorio

though both were laid down on the same date

It feels like the Kaga/Tosa argument

godfucking damnit, this abomination is still here

[lunar sand]

God that rear turret is mounted so uncomfortably high

[chilly osprey]

'Littorio' seems to have been the intended class leader, but CRDA built their hull faster than thus VV was launched first.

A common pattern, at least in international press at the time (i.e. mainly stuff like Jane's) - was to name the class after the first ship launched, hence why the class are also sometimes called the Vittorio Veneto-class.

[eternal veldt]

It was done intentionally for maximum arcs of firing.

[chilly osprey]

Though, even Italian sources will do this too, which helps confuse the matter further

Indeed

[eternal veldt]

It also looks high because the hangar space for the Ro.43 was removed entirely in hopes that the bigger, better Ca.316 would be deployed

[chilly osprey]

All nine guns can be brought to bear against a target only 20° off the bow

[eternal veldt]

once you look at the preliminary plans, it looks alright

[lunar sand]

God the VVs are such long fucking Battleships...

Compared to QEs

[eternal veldt]

but I said abomination not because of the ship's appearance, but how much of a shitshow the 3d render of her is

QEs manage 23 knots

Littorio, 30

[lunar sand]

QEs are also short and fat

[eternal veldt]

the longer the ship (and thinner the beam, and higher engine power), the faster the ship goes

[chilly osprey]

Mmm, and in fact the hangar in the design was actually sized for the planned Ca.316 (this is also what the trolley and catapult strength were calculated against, too)

Which was supposed to replace the Ro.43 but never did

[lunar sand]

On the topic of planes but not this one

I was shocked to learn the Wyvern was carrier launched... the thing is a brick how does it manage to take off of the relatively short flight deck of the lusties

[eternal veldt]

Wait, was the hangar eliminated because of the 152mm firing arcs or the plane size?

this doesn't look too terrible, unless the Italian wanted absolutely clear end on fire or even more?

[chilly osprey]

The decision was made because of the 152mm turret firing arcs

At least, that's what Bagnasco & de Toro report

Afaik they were still planning to use the Ca.316 at the time the hangar was axed

[maiden citrus]

impressive, makes me like it more

[eternal veldt]

or are they thinking blast damage because of the firing arcs

[chilly osprey]

It could be blast damage, given the guns are firing at the same height as the hangar

[eternal veldt]

Makes sense then, since the Ro.43s would be sitting somewhat lower

Won't stop them from getting bullied from shock or splinter damage regardless

[lunar sand]

Sometimes it feels like BBs were more for presenting than actual practical combat use...

[eternal veldt]

It was both, unless you are Japan

[chilly osprey]

Oh, no, a lot of painstaking effort went into optimizing them as much as possible for their combat role

[eternal veldt]

gotta save up the Yamatos for the penultimate-ultimate kantai kessen

that, and they'd make the dwindling oil supply of Japan die even harder

[lunar sand]

I wanna know who the hell decided that they needed an 18 inch gun...

Like seriously

[eternal veldt]

The designers

[lunar sand]

If you REALLY needed the firepower

Could putting more boom in the Nagato not have done the job?

[eternal veldt]

Becasue Japan's BB philosophy is to build something of superior quality than the rivaling nation

in this case, the United States

You can't just rearm the Nagatos with 18" guns, or more guns in that regard

[cinder escarp]

The first 18" guns rolled out were a result of Fisher being Fisher.

The IJN's 18" guns... were a result of a doctrine that meant they had to achieve overmatch at any cost.

[eternal veldt]

Reminder that Japan was very salty when they realized they can't mass produce the Kaga/Tosa class

because the Sodak 1920 class outmatches them in firepower

[wintry moat]

Oof

[eternal veldt]

Therefore, No.11/12 sub-class, and the No.8 class BCs

[wintry moat]

What where the Kaga’s armed with?

not familiar with them

[eternal veldt]

10 x 41cm

[thorn trail]

Without taking the speed of post WNT BBs, how does SoDak 1920 fare?

[eternal veldt]

SoDak fields 12 x 40.6cm

[wintry moat]

Ok

[cinder escarp]

Yamato with her vast size and 18" guns was because knowing the USN would always beat them in numbers, they had to have overmatch. Even if the resulting ship is somewhat absurd.

[eternal veldt]

with considerable protection

[cinder escarp]

SoDak '20 does 23kt

Which is... okay

[chilly osprey]

Japan also had to deal with the reality of 'we only have four capital-grade construction slips' as of the 1930s, and so it made sense to focus on building what battleships they could build to be as large and powerful as possible - the only way to have more battleships built at once would be to axe fleet carrier construction.

[eternal veldt]

The firepower alone is enough of a provocation for Japan to up their game harder

[cinder escarp]

(Fisher built those 18" guns for the bloody supid Courageous class)

[chilly osprey]

Ex, Yamato and Musashi are built in parallel with Shokaku and Zuikaku, at least as far as when they were on the construction slips.

[wintry moat]

Wait

[thorn trail]

Was SoDak '20's protection better or worse than later ships?

[wintry moat]

12!

[eternal veldt]

because it diminshes the quality advantage they have

[thorn trail]

like relative to all the BBs built after SoDak was planned

[maiden citrus]

looks at the track record of quality advantage in bbs

hmmmmm

[chilly osprey]

If you wanted Japan to just build 35,000 ton battleships rather than huge 63,200-ton ships, you can still only build two at once right after they leave the treaty system - unless you axe the carriers

[cinder escarp]

The problem the IJN could never solve was that even if you allow both navies to fund their building plans totally - if Japan ever got to the point of building No. 13s... the USN would reply with something bigger and stronger than SoDak '20.

[chilly osprey]

IJN also was just not going to get the money to reach the No.13's

[lunar sand]

I feel it's been discussed before but do we have any idea what the hell went wrong on the Japanese's end to end up losing 4 Carriers in Midway

And did the US losing Yorktown hurt or did they feel the exchange was "worth it" in the end (as cruel as that sounds)

[maiden citrus]

later ships are protected better due to material improvements and the fact it lets you have more time to play with armor schemes

inclined belts were thought of for the sodak 1920 but not implimented, but nc had them

[cinder escarp]

They could never solve the fact that the USN would always outbuild them, and having an 8-8 fleet of ships that overmatched the USN was never going to be possible.

[eternal veldt]

Let's be honest, the 8-8 fleet is just "how to bankrupt your country 101"

[chilly osprey]

The Japanese government was probably not going to (and would not be able) to fund much past the Amagi-class, tbh

[eternal veldt]

Even the Yamatos were a stress on the economy

3% of a nation's GDP each

[cinder escarp]

There's a reason I said "even if", there's no way the full '20s fleet build for the IJN could have been done.

[chilly osprey]

Always worth noting the treasury told the navy they had to stop, even before the WNT said 'no more'

WNT just forced them to cut back even further than they were expecting

[eternal veldt]

It's complicated ™️

[thorn trail]

okay speaking of belt armor, why did some BBs have external belt while others had internal belts?

[chilly osprey]

Which, in retrospect, was probably still the better option for the navy given the need to invest in things that weren't capital ships, too. And carriers.

[eternal veldt]

I suggsest you start here https://youtu.be/Bd8_vO5zrjo

[lunar sand]

I have time

[eternal veldt]

Follow that up by reading Shattered Sword

[lunar sand]

Hmm

[maiden citrus]

design factors regarding streamlining for speed and the slant of said belts, if applicable, vs ship width

[cinder escarp]

SoDak '20 was a real pain for the IJN because they were armed and armed well enough that everything but the Nagatos had to be written off as part of the '8-8' plan. The problem was it would always take Japan so long to build the full capital fleet that the USN would make a qualitative leap in the meantime that forced them to start over again.

It's the same issue the Germans had trying to do the same thing with the High Seas Fleet against the Grand Fleet.

[eternal veldt]

Also, keep in mind that Japan was really gunning for an 8-8-8 fleet plan

[thorn trail]

wait 8-8 means 8 BBs and 8 BCs right?

what does the other 8 mean

[eternal veldt]

the Tosa/Kiis (8), Amagi/No.8s (8), then the older 4 Kongous and Fuso/Ises, as the second line of 8s

Maintenance fees: very no

[tough quail]

japans busy trying to speedrun being a 1st class world power in as little time as possible

[lunar sand]

Im watching, but did the US even expect to encounter all 4 carriers there?

[tough quail]

they hadn't even been industrialized for like 70 years when ww2 kicked off

[eternal veldt]

Signal intelligence does point to 4, yes

since 2 were already at Coral Sea a few days prior

Which would prove to be the undoing of the Kido Butai

[thorn trail]

No. 8s?

[eternal veldt]

No.13 class battlecruisers

[lunar sand]

So midway seems to have definitely been the result of a mix of luck and Japanese incompetence.

But the question still remains, despite taking down 4 of Japan's best carriers... how did the USN handle the sinking of Yorktown?

[eternal veldt]

It's a bit complicated to explain, but the hull numbers assigned to the class are No. 8s to 11

But, they are also the 13th homemade capital ship utilizing the new counting system

[thorn trail]

Did the US have designs for ships supposed to be built after the SoDaks?

[maiden citrus]

none finalized

[eternal veldt]

SoDaks were the ultimate "standards" before the WNT canned them all

[thorn trail]

but what were they looking at then?

[eternal veldt]

See Spring Style Book 1

[eternal veldt]

https://www.shipscribe.com/styles/S-584/albums/s584-bb.htm

[eternal veldt]

I wouldn't argue completely on "incompentence", but rather a lack of resources

[chilly osprey]

(I think I just assumed the hull no.s here, so probably need to fix that)

[eternal veldt]

As the video would later point out, there simply aren't enough planes for the dual mission that the Kido Butai was issued to do

As the standing orders were to

1. Neutralize Midway
2. Destroy the American Carrier Force

4 carriers are not enough to conduct both at the same time, and the 5th Cardiv was either damaged or lost enough planes to write them out of the operation entirely

[thorn trail]

Also speaking of uh the post ww1 naval arms race

How would the Lexi's have faired against the Amagi's?

[eternal veldt]

Phoenix, for your chart, the name of the No.13 class would be No.8-11 battlecruisers

You could add a small column stating # of capital ship built in Japan

You'd run into issues with the older vessels though, as the WoWS channel points out

Tsukuba: No.子
Ikoma: No.丑
Kurama: No.寅
Ibuki: No.1
Kongo: No.伊
Hiei: No.卯
Haruna: No.2
Kirishima: No.3
Amagi: No.4

[chilly osprey]

Yeah, I just realized that I had left them like that when I first made that

I'll have to fix that

[eternal veldt]

For whatever reason, they decided to assign Ibuki as Numba wan

[chilly osprey]

I'm pretty sure I just assumed when I first made it, which was dumb

[eternal veldt]

No.11 (Allegedly Suruga) is the other one that requires mental gymnastics

[thorn trail]

I've heard that the Lexi's had some pretty questionable design decisions

[eternal veldt]

Battleship No.11, Homemade capital ship No.13

(Not to be confused with the No.13 class, or the battlecruiser No.11)

[maiden citrus]

lexingtons were rather lightly protected, but did have powerful armament

they did benefit from things such as turbo electric subdivision and were incredibly fast, but again, light protection, and not just over a good part of the ship, but essentially entirely light protection

in other words it's the exact opposite of a ship I would make

[eternal veldt]

The things you need to sacrifice to hit 33 knots

[maiden citrus]

lexingtons are very weird ships, incredibly dangerous but suffer from punch in face syndrome

[thorn trail]

glass cannons?

[eternal veldt]

and then there's this

long long man

[thorn trail]

what the fuck is this