history

[lunar sand]

[eternal veldt]

Well, Bismarck's hunt is something I won't shit on

Wehrbs be complaining "outnumbered"

Bitch, git gud and field more ships like the RN

[desert agate]

The Brits do in fact get wanked here

Not as much as they used to

[eternal veldt]

Warspite is still wanked to this day, for good reason

[lunar sand]

Bismarck was dead as soon as PoW and Hood found her, they just prolonged it as much as they could.

[desert agate]

Spoot boot

[eternal veldt]

And Repulse's captain is a gigachad in my eyes

[lunar sand]

You ever just full broadside a German destroyer

[somber knoll]

[lunar sand]

At point blank range

[eternal veldt]

19 torpedoes dodged before an anvil nailed him

Meanwhile PoW is already eating shit because of a fucked maneuver

Good job Leach and Phillips

[lunar sand]

Yeah enlighten me historians, what the fuck went wrong that resulted in the Japanese tearing apart PoW

[desert agate]

Cheavanism and racism

[eternal veldt]

Okay, see that little spinny thing near the stern

Put a torpedo into spinny thing

[somber knoll]

boom

[eternal veldt]

Spinny thing chainsaws your ship, breaks off, and then the empty tube floods the ship

Ship loses speed and power

[lunar sand]

No but like... what even were they doing that the Japanese and RN even encountered eachother

[eternal veldt]

Ship gets smacked harder and died

[dapper parcel]

I don't even think British command in Malaya even take the war seriously at that time

[eternal veldt]

But yes, what Spon said

Refused air cover from the Australians

Until it was far too late, and not even issued by the PoW, the flagship

[desert agate]

Effectively the British had decided that a handful of battleships would deter Japanese aggression somehow the commander also decided that no battleship at combat stations had ever been sunk, therefore he did not need to concern himself with silly concepts such as "air cover" or "radio communications"

[somber knoll]

whatever Leach and Philips were smokin', I ain't buyin.

[eternal veldt]

Bismarck's worst mistake at Denmark Strait is not shooting at PoW's bridge cleaner and killing Leach, change my mind

[desert agate]

I would note that the Japanese attackers on PoW and Repulse were entirely unescorted

Even the utterly obsolete F2As of the RAAF which were assigned to provide cover would have decimated the attackers

[somber knoll]

tru tru

[dapper parcel]

There's also "we can't do that, so they probably can't too" mentality
Which plagued both parties tbf

[desert agate]

Doesn't excuse not making any requests for air cover

[lunar sand]

So PoWs loss was 100% avoidable were the commanding officers not complete donkeys

[eternal veldt]

Doubling the problem was that the equipment doesnt work in tropical weather...because nobody tested it

The pom pom tracers were busted

[desert agate]

The British senior officers of WW2 were effectively a 'boys club' of friends and the like none of whom were capable of offering professional feedback or criticism until after they had made a mistake

[eternal veldt]

The single 40mm bofors at the stern of Pow was considered more effective because it had tracers, and flak actually deterred pilots from careening straight at the ship

[dapper parcel]

The time to prevent their sinking was before the force set sail, it's practically moot once they're out at the sea

[lunar sand]

How many ships were lost to incompetence before the RN captains got their shit straightened

[junior trench]

they just straight didn't have any

[eternal veldt]

Oh right, it wasnt tracer

The pom poms just die after power went out

The bofors kept working

[desert agate]

Prince of Wales and Repulse are the two big ones most of the time the British managed to makes accurate judgements

[junior trench]

what was busted was the HAACS

both fundamentally and due to the heat and humidity

[desert agate]

It's just that the Japanese were Asians and clearly couldn't possibly defeat any white man in combat as his brain is clearly smaller and inferior (hopefully obvious sarcasm)

[junior trench]

the majority of RN DD's sunk by air attack

due to a prewar decision that destroyers wouldn't be targeted

[lunar sand]

That does bring an interesting hypothetical

How would the RN have faired against the IJN

[junior trench]

and that dive bombers weren't a threat

[junior trench]

poorly

[eternal veldt]

Fiji and Manchester being lost to air attacks because no ammo is also a ...wow

[lunar sand]

Carriers?

I assume

[somber knoll]

more sarcasm if that is so then Halsey wouldn't fall of their trick and we would have a clash of the titans /s

[junior trench]

horrifically

the RN's only possible advantage is trying to launch a likely suicidal night torpedo attack with swordfish

in the carrier fight

[desert agate]

The RN would have lost the carrier war but won just about everywhere else, unfortunately since the carrier war is the most important war, the RN would have fared poorly

[lunar sand]

How fucking big is the gap between the Lusties, and Akagi/Kaga/Shokaku/Zuikaku

[junior trench]

massive

[lunar sand]

[somber knoll]

like a lot

[junior trench]

mostly due the available aircraft

[desert agate]

Kaga had about double the air group of Illustrious

Give or take including spares

[eternal veldt]

The Kido Butai as of 1942 are also arguably the most experienced aviators in the world

[desert agate]

Might be closer to 75%

[eternal veldt]

Thanks to their little excursion in China

[junior trench]

the British in this scenario also aren't yet aware their AA fire control straight up doesn't work

[lunar sand]

Least explains why they mostly left the Pacific theater to the USN.

Granted they also had the entire Atlantic theater to worry about

[junior trench]

the RN left the Pacific to the USN because they legitimately could not operate in it

[eternal veldt]

The dive bomber squadron that nailed Hermes had 70% of their load being misses or near missed, IIRC

[lunar sand]

Did the IJN ever try to break out into the Atlantic theater?

[thorn trail]

they don't have the bases to do that

[desert agate]

The RN left the Pacific because they simply didn't have the forces available and considered the Pacific to be 'prunable'

[eternal veldt]

A few subs went to the Atlantic theatre for some secret deal trading

[lunar sand]

What are friends for

[eternal veldt]

Which promptly got shat on

[desert agate]

Indian Ocean raid is the closest they got

[somber knoll]

also their focus were primarily Asia-Oceania

[eternal veldt]

I-52 got fucked by Bogue's ASW group

[shrewd pecan]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1667589774113230849

SMA Michael Grinston (@USArmySMA)

As part of the 248th #ArmyBirthday it was my honor to unveil the name of our Mobile Protective Firepower vehicle: the M10 Booker.

▶ Play video

Twitter · Jun 10, 2023, 5:49 PM

[desert agate]

1942 was indeed a betrayal of Australia by the British but I've made that rant enough times

[somber knoll]

cue the Texas Walker Ranger music

[eternal veldt]

Honestly, its fucking disgusting

[lunar sand]

Who was in charge of the USN in the Atlantic

Given Nimitz and the gang were in the Pacific

[eternal veldt]

"just hold the line for 3 months until we can muster a reinforcement naval party to you, okay?"

"now behave like the little hastily fortified colony like you are against the onslaught"

colony falls in 17 days

[junior trench]

I can make you angrier by mentioning that in some other shipgirl game the UK playerbase has totally abandoned Australia to its fate in the face of a global eldritch threat from the sea

😉

[eternal veldt]

Surprisedpikachu.jpg

[desert agate]

King was a big player in the Atlantic

[desert agate]

Oh hey what's new

[junior trench]

anyway

[desert agate]

Dw when the Germans do their thing again it'll be our turn to abandon the British to an eldrich horror (Sauerkraut)

[junior trench]

did you know the Pom-Pom was uh, handcranked

[lunar sand]

Why do I feel that reinforcements never got there

[eternal veldt]

Its okay, just ask Australis to breed their own eldritch horrors to counter

[junior trench]

you had to turn a crank to acuate the trigger mechanism

[lunar sand]

[eternal veldt]

What do you think the Wolf Spiders are for?

[junior trench]

on the multi gun mounts

eventually they added an electric motor to turn the cranks

[somber knoll]

so drop a battalion of Emus to the Midland?

[junior trench]

but it results in an abslutely wild case of the Pom-Pom being an automatic semi-automatic

[eternal veldt]

They sent us a Gurkha regiment and a few Canadian regiments.

They didn't last long.

[desert agate]

I wonder what Hobart's AA looked like

If it was any better than average

[lunar sand]

Let me guess, the USN had to force the IJN out of there

[dapper parcel]

that's standard for vickers gun...

[eternal veldt]

No. It was left mostly alone.

Essex and Hancock bonbed the shit out of a few drydocks twice and called it a day.

[junior trench]

no, not the cocking mechanism

like

literally a hand crank which actuates the trigger

[eternal veldt]

A few Japanese still refused to surrender after September 2nd, and decided to take potshots at the Brits

[junior trench]

rather than just holding down the trigger and letting the mechanism work at speed

[desert agate]

I know RAN jumped on the bofors and oerlikon train well before the British did

[eternal veldt]

Anson replied kindly with 40mm fire

[desert agate]

[eternal veldt]

I may be able to look tomorrow, but Im fucking off to bed

On Hobart's AA

[desert agate]

Yeah same tbh

2:30am

[lunar sand]

This may come as a weird question

But did the Waffen SS have naval presence, I know they had significant ground presence

[dapper parcel]

I don't recall it have any significant difference with 1pddr

[lunar sand]

so a book my friend mailed me talks about the history of battles in the pacific. Including Savo island... wtf happened down there

like I read through it, but like... what the hell

4 CA's sunk, Chicago forced to drydock for serious repairs, 2 DDs lost

meanwhile Japan lost 1 cruiser and shit else...

was this incompetence, or did everything that possibly could go wrong just go wrong

[chilly osprey]

Kind of a mix?

The Americans were not very ready for night combat during that phase of the war, and, with how naval night combat works, if one side doesn't have a clear idea of what's going on, they're likely to take heavy punishment for it.

[dapper parcel]

USN was literally firing blind

[chilly osprey]

And American situational awareness in that battle was very poor.

[lunar sand]

did they just not account for the possibility of night combat?

[chilly osprey]

In general, it has to be said - in night combat, the defending force is always severely disadvantaged due to the difficulty involved in maintaining situational awareness. It's hard to track where all your ships are, where enemy ships are, and then actually give coherent commands based on that.

So the attacking force, which had a plan of attack and the initiative overall, was at a heavy advantage going into any fight.

This wasn't really 'fixed' until the development of the CIC, which really started making it into ships in 1943.

[dapper parcel]

They did, it just that they assume night battle world be conducted in very conservative and deliberate maneuver by both sides

[chilly osprey]

The CIC allowed for ships to maintain a general idea of what was actually going on around them, in regards to both friendly and enemy ships, and allowed for actionable information to be disseminated to commanders.

[strong plank]

Everyone shut up

MPF name just dropped

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2023/06/10/us-armys-new-combat-vehicle-named-for-soldiers-killed-in-iraq-wwii/

[shrewd pecan]

already posted it

[strong plank]

Fuck

[shrewd pecan]

w

[manic latch]

Kiwwy Hawk UwU Ow<

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/Gabriel64869839/status/1667625033068425220

Gabriele Molinelli (@Gabriel64869839)

No idea how accurate graphic is, when it comes to SSN-AUKUS. Approximate sizes must be known by now, but who knows how faithful the drawing is. No doubt it will be significantly larger than ASTUTE. The image is certainly interesting. All that space behind the tower is... telling.

Twitter · Jun 10, 2023, 8:09 PM

[rapid junco]

The former HMS Ceylon as the Coronel Bolognesi in the Peruvian navy

[grave ravine]

The more I read about the 1st Naval Battle of Guadalcanal the more I think the battle was basically fought the way Callaghan wanted it to be, and the outcomes were broadly within what he had hoped for

Its kind of damning that no one seemed to have thought that Japan may try the bombardment redux and actually bothered to move heavy units into the area to stop it

Like I still don't think he handled the battle well

But his plan (or what we think it was anyways), as shitty as it seems, did work as intended

[cinder escarp]

PoV: you fear IRST

[cinder escarp]

Yeah: one of the F-35's underappreciated tricks up its sleeve.

It has an internally stowed towed decoy.

[manic latch]

F-35 pilot when he is in a chaff drop situation

[cinder escarp]

Several air forces have towed decoys in use nowadays, but this is the first one to have it internally stowed.

[manic latch]

Guns feel super primitive

need a chemical reaction to throw the sharp object

makes lot of heat and smoke when done too many times

also hurts the gun for such reason

Concept Haven't changed for centuries now

[runic prairie]

Chaff isn’t great. The trend seems to be towards active decoys which, while more expensive, are far better.

[desert agate]

this goes hard

@spring briar

[hot nymph]

Okay, question, is anyone in this channel a history major at Uni? Just curious, or are just interested in it for fun? Either way, I hope to make friends here!

[tight bridge]

Saw the the protected cruiser olympia today

[desert agate]

most people here are just enthusiasts, I'm not aware of any regulars with actual history degrees

[spiral cedar]

Hello

Not a history major no but enjoy your stay

[hot nymph]

Ahhh, I gotchu! I am currently pursuing a degree in history myself, so I was honestly just curious lol. Makes me glad to know people love history as much as I do!

[hot nymph]

Thanks!

[maiden citrus]

[lunar sand]

I find it odd that the Rafale and by extentsion France is the only NATO nation that utilizes US carrier integration...

if you guys are gonna be allies... would it not be a good idea to make sure anyone can land on any carrier, in case of the inevitable "shit happens" scenario

[desert agate]

because CATOBAR is expensive

theres only 4 carrier operating navies in NATO anyway

the Italians simply arent interested in cats and traps and the British have a bad habit of planning all this big an expansive programs and then cutting them back dramatically

the British originally intended for the QEs to have catapults, to the point where connection points and cradles are literally installed underneath the deck, but the mechanism itself wasnt installed

[lunar sand]

wtf...

like you're almost there, why stop and just quit

[desert agate]

because British government didnt want to pay for the aircraft or maintenance of the catapult system

so they just installed a ramp and redesigned the deck to a straight deck rather than angled and left it at that

now theyve realised how monumentally stupid that was and are working on installing the cats, but since the F-35b cant be launched from cats, they need to keep the ski ramp so she'll end up in a weird position of having both catapults and a ski ramp

[lunar sand]

the presence of CATOBAR on the Charles de Gaulle brings up one interesting hypothetical to think about.

In the event a Rafale M lands on a Nimitz class or an F-A/18 lands on CDG... would they even have the resources available to repair/resupply the plane in question. (given that it'd most likely only happen in an emergency)

[lunar sand]

also how is the F-35 naval program going, because last I heard lockheed is beating its face against a wall.

Every solution reveals a new problem the Navy has with it

[desert agate]

repair? no
American crews arent trained on French aircraft or vice versa nor do they keep stocks
rearming and refuelling is a lot easier though since both navies use mostly the same ordinance

[lunar sand]

I don't think the french would be happy to see an AIM-9X on a rafale as opposed to a Magic

[desert agate]

it's also not a difficult process to simply load up a crew and some parts onto a helicopter or a C-2 and fly them over to the other carrier to conduct necessary repairs/maintenance after an emergency landing

[lunar sand]

I guess you're right

[desert agate]

wait and see for block 4

some issues will always be there but block 4 F-35s will be the major tipping point for USN

[lunar sand]

time to bring up the question...

do you think the F-35 will replace the F-A/18

[desert agate]

in USN service? no

well

yes but no

F-35 will replace classic Hornet, so F/A-18a and b

but it wont be replacing Super Hornet

Super Hornet will be replaced by NGAD

for RAAF service, F-35 block 4 will be replacing Super Hornet just as block 3 replaced classic Hornet

Kuwait probably wont buy F-35 and Canada is Canada

all USMC Hornets will be replaced by F-35 too

[junior trench]

I wouldn't say 35C has problems so much as it's just missing capabilities which show up in Block 4, which is the Navy's main sticking point.

They'd rather have full capability out of the box rather than juggling around units which need to get shipped back to refit to the standard later

[lunar sand]

air force forked over a frankly ridiculous amount of money for new F-15s

[strong plank]

I guess I’m technically a history major, if we’re counting double majors

[hot nymph]

id def count that

[alpine onyx]

No history major, but got the engineering degree so that still works for bote talks

[hot nymph]

🔥

[eternal veldt]

Did take a course on military history and wrote a (very badly written) paper myself in University myself. Mostly in it for the bote aesthetics.

Though I guess relevant to the discussion is why the interest in the subject area, and why it should be studied.

[supple sandal]

https://youtu.be/rBnRhP41nmg

Why the fuck there only stock images of this memorial

[strong plank]

Wish there were more military history courses in college honestly

The few I’ve managed to take are more aimed at subjective attitudes towards the events, not really the events themselves

[dapper parcel]

Well, civil history rarely need an in depth to such events
It's practically only taught in officer courses here

I was taking my grad in strongly naval-affiliated univ, so I often strayed to such class

[deep apex]

Will begin classes in engineering technology in August

[spring briar]

[gentle pecan]

does anyone here has like a google docs on whats the basis of the new azur lane ships from the events?

like the one for PR ships

[dapper parcel]

It's there in pinned posts somewhere

[desert agate]

Nah the pinned is just pr

[eternal veldt]

I've been tempted to create a section/document on unbuilt ships before, but too many, with little purpose

[manic latch]

Release a product
talk about its cool features
people: Buys the product
corpo: Hmm what if I make a product 1.5 but with more features
people: Now needs to buy product 1.5

Blok 4 is a very smart marketing ngl

Reminds me Overwatch 2

[junior trench]

https://tenor.com/view/breaking-bad-funny-wtf-wth-jesse-gif-17336046

[dapper parcel]

Just put an addendum, not like there are that many (atm)

What Bis2 even supposed to be anyway?

[ivory ridge]

Nothing

A bisko magical retrofit

[manic latch]

Lore related Manjuu decision

[eternal veldt]

Tbh, not particularly necessary, since character lines say it all

compared to the big 4head WG abominations

[manic latch]

Kirov class's RPK-6 ASW missile

[ivory ridge]

why does it go underwater before launch

[dapper parcel]

It's torpedo tube launched

[manic latch]

It's a torpedo missile

So has to be launched as torpedo from launcher

[ivory ridge]

Ok but why

[manic latch]

Now as an dear friend explained, Soviet VLS were...too specified

So you end having unique and less efficient ways of throwing different kind of missiles like this

So you force this girl to be launched as a torpedo since vls takes things like Granit and S-300F

[ivory ridge]

Also shout-out to the MILAS being straight up a torpedo strapped to an Otomat

[manic latch]

This picture is good example while Mk41 was damn good for 1980s

[dapper parcel]

SUBROC

[manic latch]

Mk41 can carry different missiles while Kirov is forced to be very individual specific

[dapper parcel]

So, yeah
They want a standoff weapon, so they put torpedo on a rocket
But they also want it launchable form submarine too, so they put rocket on a torpedo

It would be only sensical to reuse the existing system on a ship, so they put torpedo on a rocket gas generator

[neon oyster]

I love Kirov’s

[neon oyster]

No flexibility

[manic latch]

Nakhimov's refit with 240 Kalibr/Onyx/Tsirkon missiles + 240 of the 9M96E/E2 SAMs + 64 9M338K (derived from Tor-M2). Should give her much better flexibility

Getting rid of that useless and gigantic Granit launchers

[shrewd pecan]

I mean I'd argue they'd be better off getting rid of the last of the Kirovs in their entirety

but I don't think their shipbuilding industry is capable of producing any brand new destroyers/cruisers right now

[manic latch]

Must use what you have ye, or else Slava class and Kirov class would already be replaced by a Super Gorshkov or Lider long ago

[shrewd pecan]

there stuck using rapidly aging hulls for their larger surface combatants

while still being able to produce world class ships for their corvettes and frigate fleets

[manic latch]

I find Kirovs more valuable than Kuz tbh

Or remaining 2 Kirovs

Pyotr's refit is likely cancelled after how expensive and time it took for Nakhimov

[shrewd pecan]

Kuznetsov at a minimum is maintaining a capability they cannot cheaply replace

the need to maintain larger Soviet style cruisers/destroyers is actively just becoming a budget death hole for the already underfunded Russian navy

[neon oyster]

At least 1 can still run(?)

[dapper parcel]

Kirov was reasonable when missiles were giants
240 cell UKSK on the other hand is just silly

[neon oyster]

1 single missile hitting that general area

[neon oyster]

Soooo those vls up front have multiple missile choices?

[neon oyster]

I’d just give up at this point

[shrewd pecan]

removing carrier capability is

a decision extremely hard to come back from

especially if you do not have allies you can borrow from to help you get it back

[neon oyster]

They’ve already basically lost carrier capability

It’s a dead end anyways, they can’t build any more carriers

[shrewd pecan]

they still have the one

and there is no coming back if they scrap Kuznetsov

[neon oyster]

The one that is always stuck in dock and can’t leave without a tugboat

[shrewd pecan]

she's undergoing retrofit right now

[neon oyster]

Better to treat that one as non-existent

[neon oyster]

Which she caught on fire during

Funni

[shrewd pecan]

as funny as it is to shit on Kuznestov

it is a capability they cannot get back if they retire her

[neon oyster]

If they want to keep it sure, but it’s a dead end

[shrewd pecan]

and?

[neon oyster]

Unless they get China to build a cv for them

[shrewd pecan]

eventually they could possibly either build a smaller replacement

or build new yards

[neon oyster]

Don’t dump any more desperately needed money into that hole

[shrewd pecan]

but if they get rid of Kuznetsov

that makes any return to carrier capability

far more difficult

and far more expensive

[manic latch]

Ships have highest chance of catching fire during refits since you got lot of flammable things like paint and welding going on, with exposed electronics

[shrewd pecan]

that is skill and experience you cannot get back

in the timeframe it would take Russia to get a new carrier

[neon oyster]

I doubt they can afford a cv anyways but one can hope

[shrewd pecan]

they can just be realistic and stop trying to make 100k ton super carriers

and go for you know

[manic latch]

They have similar budget with British so it's possible given they have 2 QE but you have to sacrifice something

[neon oyster]

Yeah just make a smaller lhd

[shrewd pecan]

a STOBAR capable light carrier

[manic latch]

Likely nuclear submarines

[shrewd pecan]

sacrifice probably has to be the Kirovs and Slava's tbh

[neon oyster]

Did u get the QEs?
Yes
What did it cost?
Hms ocean

[manic latch]

Slavas were considered to be retired in 2018, likely no other option cancelled that

[neon oyster]

Yeah that’s more realistic than any of their super cv projects

[shrewd pecan]

yeah and we saw how Moskva went after Neptune decided to have a visit

(I will not go further than that)

[manic latch]

Ironic that she was killed by a Soviet missile yes

[neon oyster]

I’d say Slava’s they are capital ship size and are aging anyways

[manic latch]

Wrong

Ships are getting bigger

[neon oyster]

Yeah they didn’t prove their worth

[manic latch]

Type 55 is good proof

[neon oyster]

I meant aren’t

[shrewd pecan]

other ships navies are seeing ships getting larger and larger

though in Russia's case they'd likely benefit from going smaller than you know

20k ton Liders

[manic latch]

They simply cannot, they were designed as heavily anti ship doctrine, Enemy fleet ships literally don't exist anymore

[neon oyster]

Yeah

[manic latch]

Lider won't happen but I believe on Super Gorshkov

Around 8k tons

[neon oyster]

They don’t serve their original purpose, somehow I doubt they can take on a 2023 usn csg

[shrewd pecan]

much more realistic considering the Russian navy's budget and industry constraints

[manic latch]

Budget did saw a increase for understandable reasons so will see depending on how 23900 construction goes

[shrewd pecan]

not really for the requirements of entire military

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_23900_amphibious_assault_ship

[shrewd pecan]

the thing no one really realizes is that Russian military has massive underfunding issues in every department expect nuclear forces

[neon oyster]

It looks so chubby

[manic latch]

If finished they will be heaviest by 40k tons

[shrewd pecan]

especially right now their budget is not enough to cover requirements

[neon oyster]

I’m quite sure that got exposed in a certain event in 2022

[shrewd pecan]

its been a issue for awhile

that combined with corruption is why projects like T-14 and Su-57 are having "delays" constantly

[neon oyster]

Yeah that “event” was kinda just bring it to the spotlight

[neon oyster]

[manic latch]

I agree with expert opinions on focusing on Su-35s over 57s

[shrewd pecan]

the Russian Military has basically existed as a showcase military with basic expeditionary capability and a big red end the world button for the last 3 decades

[neon oyster]

There’s only so much u can upgrade on a flanker

[manic latch]

F-15EX shows you can go more

[neon oyster]

They’re basically a plot device for writers

[shrewd pecan]

its main purpose was to look pretty and do basic operations against "lesser threats"

[neon oyster]

Well no stealth is still sad but they don’t got much of a choice

[manic latch]

Hmm

I want stealth to be proven in battle one day

Against serious threats naturally

[neon oyster]

[manic latch]

Like hardcore radars with hardcore anti air

[neon oyster]

I doubt we’ll see that unless a big thing happens

[manic latch]

While there is F-117 example but not sure if radars she faced was latest

Which I don't think they were

[neon oyster]

That’s like 1 example over god knows how many sorties and required loads of luck

[manic latch]

Nah I'm not talking about S-125* hit

I'm talking about what radars she was against

[neon oyster]

It took ultra competence from 1 side and ultra incompetence from the other

[manic latch]

Stealth is for radar after all

[neon oyster]

Let me go see, quite sure it’s some Soviet Cold War stuff

Apparently a P-18 1970s Soviet radar

[shrewd pecan]

1991

against both top of the line western and eastern radar systems on the F-117s of the time

[autumn sorrel]

So I am back from the dead, what did I miss in the last 24hr?

[shrewd pecan]

from there literally insert any red flag exercise where you see F-35s and F-22s dominating 4th gens with top of the line radars

[neon oyster]

[shrewd pecan]

people tend to forget just how sophisticated Iraq's air defense system was

and its mixture of French made and Soviet made SAM systems and radars

[neon oyster]

I completely forgor about gulf war

[shrewd pecan]

"a fifth SOC was added at Ali Al Salem to cover the recently conquered Kuwait. Each SOC oversaw the local airspace and commanded anywhere from two to five Intercept Operations Centers (IOCs) per sector. The IOCs were located in bunkers constructed at Iraqi Air Force bases and tied into local radar systems, whose information they could pass on to their SOC and thence on to Baghdad. In this way a SOC was capable of simultaneously tracking 120 aircraft and selecting for the appropriate weapon system to engage them. The SOC could automatically target for SA-2 and SA-3 SAM systems in their sector, which meant the SAMs did not have to turn on their own radar and reveal their position, or an IOC could direct local interceptors to engage the targets. Baghdad itself was one of the most heavily defended cities in the world – more heavily defended several times over than Hanoi during the Vietnam War – protected by 65% of Iraq's SAMs and over half of its AAA pieces.[34][35]"

[manic latch]

A-10, F-16, Eurofighter having exercises that they beat a F-22 makes me wonder what kind of stuff they do in those however

[shrewd pecan]

get close enough to use their IR missiles

that or the lucky radar lock

[manic latch]

So radar lock just gets you a kill?

[neon oyster]

Well you need to looks at the scenario rather than just the out come, like I remember the 1 time they claimed a Rafale took out a f22 but the exercise started in visual range and Rafale on the 6. Technically true but not the whole story

[shrewd pecan]

I have to find the exact rules

since there's cases were the rules may fuck one side or the other

[autumn sorrel]

I remember reading some old doc in the PAVN issues magazine, they said about Iraqi sending specialist to Hanoi to study old war archive about Linebacker II operations and how Vietnamese radar systems was completely saturated and how ECM affected SA2 missile effectiveness. Kinda weird to know that PAVN still proud of that

[neon oyster]

Exactly

[manic latch]

I mean yeah I would expect F-22 to have faster radar lock more than everyone thus farming exercise kills

[neon oyster]

Mostly cause how quickly they got plowed

[shrewd pecan]

its air defense system in particular

[neon oyster]

Yeah

[shrewd pecan]

was immense

[wintry moat]

Well, when basically the entire world kicks your front door open there's no a whole lot your gonna be able to do

[manic latch]

Soviet Union was gone too so literally Iraq can't get any weapon or supply aid from anywhere

[neon oyster]

55 days in Baghdad

[autumn sorrel]

“You ain’t cool until you shot an Iraqi”

[shrewd pecan]

I mean the other thing is

I don't think the Soviets would of it they could

considering the coaltion consisted of several Soviet allies including Syria

[neon oyster]

[manic latch]

True

[shrewd pecan]

alongside Kuwait being a major buyer of Soviet weapons

[autumn sorrel]

And many of old soviet bloc countries suddenly found themselves in Nato and brought with them technical knowledge of your imported AA system

[neon oyster]

Not sure how much “help” you’d need to win this war

[shrewd pecan]

I generally do not think the Soviets would of risked the chance at weakening relations with Syria and other nations just to slight the US

[manic latch]

Irrc Aim-9X used technology from R-73

[shrewd pecan]

I wouldn't say technology

I'd just say stole ideas from

[manic latch]

Smh

[neon oyster]

Inspiration

[shrewd pecan]

The US's HMDs didn't use Soviet tech since the Soviets were basically tying TV Tubes to helmets for their HMDs

there's not really much to steal from that beyond the idea of it

[manic latch]

Well HMD of any kind is better than none

[shrewd pecan]

yeah that's why the Soviets had the advantage in close range dogfights

[manic latch]

Say who controls the Nato technology? It's like Lockheed has everything

[autumn sorrel]

BAE used to but they kinda fall so hard

[manic latch]

BAE can't even make tank barrels anymore ye

Budget problems maybe

Dunno

[shrewd pecan]

I will point out

[autumn sorrel]

More like gov problem

[neon oyster]

Bri’ish problem

[shrewd pecan]

the Soviets did steal the idea of a HMS/HMD from the South Africans

[manic latch]

I had no idea South Africa had a program like this

[shrewd pecan]

it was even more basic than the Soviet ones

[autumn sorrel]

For a regime that basically shunned by the whole world, they actually do pretty good at the time

[shrewd pecan]

ok that isn't a picture of the SOuth African system

I forgot the F-4J had one as well

[autumn sorrel]

SA had nuke, guess who give them the tech

[wintry moat]

What is a HMD?

[neon oyster]

Helmet mounted display

[wintry moat]

Oh

Olay

[neon oyster]

I think Murica

[autumn sorrel]

American reactor but Pakistani knowledge

[neon oyster]

Why did Pakistan care

[autumn sorrel]

Also, there was alleged Israeli involvement but just speculation

[manic latch]

Same reason France made a nuclear reactor in China

Yee

[autumn sorrel]

And SA can make more nuke themselves with their uranium mine, all program got scrapped after the regime fall

[shrewd pecan]

Israel actually

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, SA can help them test it

[shrewd pecan]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons

we know as much about the Israeli nuclear program as we do

due to post Apartheid SA releasing documents on it

[autumn sorrel]

Don’t forget Taiwan as well

[manic latch]

F-15: No

[autumn sorrel]

You know, reading all the shenanigans that people pull during cold war and suddenly, Bond villains doesn’t seem far fetch anymore

[shrewd pecan]

considering we had a nuclear armed apartheid state racist enough to consider nuking itself to uphold its white minorities racist hierchy its not surprising

[manic latch]

Honestly I find B-29 more significant than Tiger but

She was way too late I guess

Yeah B-29 is actually wunderwaffe level plane

Same for Soviets for very expected reason

[prisma oar]

mexico did the first air to naval bombing run in history

In 1913, Mexican insurgents from the northwestern state of Sonora bought a single-seater Martin Pusher biplane in Los Angeles with the intention of attacking federal naval forces that were attacking the port of Guaymas. The aircraft was shipped on May 5, 1913, in five crates to Tucson, Arizona, via Wells Fargo Express, and then moved through the border into Mexico to the town of Naco, Sonora. The aircraft, named Sonora by the insurgents, was reassembled there and fitted with a second seat for a bomber position. The Sonora, armed with rudimentary 3-inch pipe bombs, performed the first known air-to-naval bombing runs in history.

photo of hte sonora

[thin meteor]

Chad mexicans

[thorn trail]

hold on South Africa was willing to pull a belka

what the fuck

[shrewd pecan]

yes

[thorn trail]

looking at the wings it looks like it's going metamorphosis from top to bottom

[manic latch]

Wehrbs: Ho-229 is first use of stealth in war by accident

Italians designing a Zumwalt style retractable turret:

[spring briar]

What is that

[shrewd pecan]

Vickers MBT MK 3

specifically the 3M a modernized version intended for Malaysia

[rapid junco]

158 years of the Battle of the Riachuelo
Painting by Admiral Trajano Augusto de Carvalho

[hot nymph]

Has anyone here been to the WWI Memorial Museum in Kansas City?

[runic prairie]

I’m really surprised they didn’t go for a pseudo MK 41 approach.

In the S-400 the long-range 40N6 missiles can be replaced by quad-packed 9M96 missiles.

Given the large size of the 40N6, cells for it could be used for Anti-Surface weapons and the work on making quad-packs for the 9M96 would make integration of them comparatively easy.

It would be like the SM-6 and ESSM, given that the 40N6 and the 9M96 hold broadly comparable roles to the respective American missiles.

Granted the depth required may influence that but something like the tactical vs strike length cell could be employed.

Additionally, creating an insert or something so the larger anti-surface cells could hold SAMs would make sense, allowing greater flexibility, especially if stockpiles of those ASM are low.

[manic latch]

Irrc isn't UKSK is somewhat Russian equal for Mk41 ish

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/november-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5738-russia-s-uksk-vls-to-be-replaced-with-upgraded-uksk-m-systems.html

[runic prairie]

I thought that was anti-surface only?

[manic latch]

Sadly I think that's the case

[runic prairie]

Damn

[manic latch]

Anti air vls is Naval S-350

I think problem comes from not having a missile like SM-6

[runic prairie]

Yeah, the S-400 launchers can replace one of its longer range missiles for four of those in a quadpack.

That’s why it was surprising to me that they opted to solely a VLS for the S-350 missiles.

The equivalent would be the Mk-56 and Mk-48 VLS for Sea Sparrow and ESSM.

[manic latch]

There is this girl but I don't think Nakhimov has them

https://youtube.com/shorts/nLLw8Tl6UpY?feature=share4

[runic prairie]

But the UKSK design does look like it could have lots of growth potential, kind of like the G-VLS concept for the DDG(X).

Either quadpack normal missiles or potentially reconfigure for a really large missile.

[manic latch]

Wish Soviets did take a good look on US approach

Since Mk41 is from 80s

[runic prairie]

I mean they did have different priorities

[manic latch]

While stupid Granit wants a specific angle for vls which ruins many things

[runic prairie]

The Mk 41 was originally shorter for SM-2MR.

It was only last-minute they figured out, “Oh hey we can stretch this and put in Tomahawks”.

[manic latch]

Well Russian equal is Kalibr so Toma ain't that problem

My problem is not having Anti air ability

[runic prairie]

True

[manic latch]

What Soviets did was uhhh

Revolver S-300

[runic prairie]

A lot of U.S. design is AA because the CVN is seen as the primary offensive arm.

Soviet/Russian doctrine is far more focused on Surface units being anti-shipping assets.

Hence stuff like P-500 and P-700

[manic latch]

Kirov's S-300F

While the concept does seems to be reloading faster than VLS (VLS can't reload lol), look at how much space it's taking

[runic prairie]

Yeah the Chinese ditched these for their own VLS.

[manic latch]

Yeah they pack a punch, but likely too slow to avoid air defenses now

[tough quail]

no yer-2

pensive

[runic prairie]

The P-700 was a beast when it was made. It wasn’t called “SHIPWRECK” for nothing.

That being said it was very large and thus not too many could be carried (I mean the Oscar class subs with them are the size of an Ohio SSBN so it necessitates a damn big ship).

[manic latch]

[runic prairie]

Iirc they’re about the same speed as the Oniks and at similar altitude, just you can’t fling many and NATO Air Defense won’t be saturated by that.

[manic latch]

7000kg mass with 750kg warhead going at least Mach 1.6

Even BBs may suffer badly

[runic prairie]

CVNs are really tough nuts to crack.

The sponsons are basically spaced armor.

They have decks thicker than many WWII armored carriers.

It’s a hard target.

[chilly osprey]

iirc P-700 flew higher than P-800, the latter actually being capable of sea skimming.

[runic prairie]

I should add the thick decks are there primarily for structure so they can have big planes and stuff but it has the nice side-effect of being armor.

[manic latch]

The size of the missile limits the platforms on which it can operate and be launched from.  It has only been deployed from Oscar-class submarines, Kirov-class battlecruisers, and the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier. Ships of all three types will have their Granit missiles replaced with new launch cells to carry smaller Oniks and Kalibr cruise missiles in greater numbers.

[runic prairie]

The P-700 was very low-flying, if not “sea-skimming”, the P-500/1000 was a high-flier.

[manic latch]

Tho P-700 goes Mach 2 at high altitude

Falls to 1 ish at low

I guess Zircon is just better now

It will lose %50 of warhead but

Got the speed

[chilly osprey]

Zircon would be a fairly different class of missile

[manic latch]

And better size

Well it's main replacement of Granit

[chilly osprey]

Since it's a hypersonic cruise missile that will behave more like older supersonic types

Since hypersonics are incapable of sea-skimming

[manic latch]

Even physics wants to balance things I guess

Sea skimming hyper would be based

[chilly osprey]

Yeah

I mean, you already have to accept a ton of compromises to get a supersonic missile to sea skim

For a real hypersonic it just becomes impossible

[runic prairie]

I wonder what it actually looks like.

Aside from some graphics they’ve been pretty cagey about actually showing it.

My personal guess would be something broadly looking like a scaled-down KH-80 because of the similar operating environments (hypersonic, high-flying).

My question is its terminal speed as the scramjet won’t function in the lower atmosphere and it will likely have to slow to use sensors.

That may make survivability a good deal worse.

[thorn trail]

that would require something like a 3-4 TWR at low level sustained

[manic latch]

Wanna hear most overpowered thing?

Supercavitating torpedo hypersonic sea-skimmer missile

[thorn trail]

actually not just power needed

Idt any material would survive hypersonic sea skimming

[strong plank]

sorta reminds me of the Virgina Payload Module for the Virginia-class

[manic latch]

Gorshkov launch is only good pic we have

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1668042879934029825

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1944, USS Missouri (BB-63) became the last new battleship commissioned by the U.S. Navy. This is the "Mighty Mo" at SINKEX in 1989, jabbing with the 5-inch guns and then unleashing haymakers with the 16-inchers.

▶ Play video

Twitter · Jun 11, 2023, 11:49 PM

[runic prairie]

Similar design pressure.

The VPM was designed around the early Ohio SSGN tubes which were for Trident I missiles (I don’t think they are sized for Trident II tubes for their SSGN conversion but I could be wrong).

The USKS was built around converting Granit tubes.

[chilly osprey]

It is likely that is the case, yes.

The same actually goes for HGVs, too, which is why it's been an easier solution to adapt terminal interceptors for such systems (ex, SM-6 Block II), versus, say, midcourse interceptors.

The main advantage with Hypersonic weapons is that they reduce the time to target for a launch, reduce reaction time overall, and reduce the effective range they can be intercepted.

[manic latch]

Tries to find what if Soyuz refits

Finds Soviet Yamato

I will cry

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/651823796453638144/1036911307661787156/uncaption.gif

[manic latch]

PLEASE

[autumn sorrel]

Why do I get Man in high castle vibe

That Yamato refit look familiar

[tough quail]

is it bad that the thing that upsets me most is

remove bow crest

put star below it

who hurt you?

why would you do this?

[manic latch]

Yeah that's annoying

[manic latch]

Here is Soyuz art you likely never ever seen once in your entire life

[tough quail]

bless

[dapper parcel]

Proper HGV never really left the atmosphere anyway, making kinetic midcourse interception a lot trickier

[runic prairie]

I believe the Dual I and II modification is independent of the block designations as it is a software upgrade rather than a hardware upgrade.

[haughty osprey]

You need to be imprisoned for making us see this

[thin meteor]

i wanna see one built

[hot nymph]

I am not well equipped in Naval history, more aerial and ground combat myself, but what did the Allied Powers do with the remaining German Reich and Imperial Japanese fleet ships? Well really, who took those spoils

[tribal mortar]

KRI Irian...

Objectively, what is their Rarity in AL, based on your knowledge on it

[thin meteor]

i know with some of the japanese ships the us blew them up in operation crossroads

I think the germans scrapped most of their ships to prevent the allies from getting them

[subtle prawn]

Nuremberg was commissioned into the Red Navy as Admiral Makarov

[hot nymph]

Figured as much. I thought that the US or Soviets would have had arguments over who would get the pride of each fleet, in which the Soviets would end up taking most of the ships, in the post war treaty due to the US gaining occupation over Japan

[subtle prawn]

The ROC got Yukikaze as a war prize

[thin meteor]

US also got the I-400

[maiden citrus]

most of their navies were devastated, so not too many large ships in good condition left

[hot nymph]

I legit forgot about the Republic of China. Makes me wonder if the PRC took Yukikaze after the Chinese Civil War ended, or if it ended up in Taiwan

[thin meteor]

im pretty sure the ROC took the navy with them

[hot nymph]

Ig that would make sense, considering they would have to protect themselves from potential attacks from the mainland

[subtle prawn]

France got two Capitani Romani-class ships from Italy

[hot nymph]

Anything from Germany? Also, did Italy lose their entire fleet, considering their territorial concessions were mild due to flipping sides when deposing Mussolini

[subtle prawn]

Like I said earlier, the Soviet Navy got the cruiser Nuremberg as a war prize

[hot nymph]

Ah, gotcha

[subtle prawn]

The Americans got the destroyer Z39

[hot nymph]

why did the Americans give Z39 to France?

[thin meteor]

they didnt need destroyers

[hot nymph]

Fair enough

[thin meteor]

they had a ton of fletchers and sumners already

[grave ravine]

Got taken by Taiwan, scrapped in the 70s

[hot nymph]

Makes sense, though I'm surprised the US didn't try to at least scrap it

[hot nymph]

Fair enough, it was def obsolete by that point

What ever happened to the Nagato?

[thin meteor]

Also the spanish used a u-boat till 1970

[subtle prawn]

Used as a target for Operation Crossroads

[grave ravine]

Taiwan decommissioned the last of their Gearings in like 2010

[eternal veldt]

No such thing. Lots were drawn over the assets.

[hot nymph]

That's a sad fate for her, especially being pretty useful

[hot nymph]

That recently? Jeesh

[thin meteor]

mexico was also using fletchers until 2001

[grave ravine]

Yeah, they had been fairly significantly upgraded, part of the reason the war prizes often went first was because they were one offs so the maintenance was more expensive

Thus it made more sense to upgrade fletchers and gearings than the prizes

and allen sumners

[strong plank]

We also nuked Eugen

[grave ravine]

yeah, as well as Saratoga

and Nevada

[thin meteor]

also some carriers im pretty sure

[grave ravine]

just Saratoga got nuked

as far as carriers go AFAIK

[strong plank]

Independence

[hot nymph]

god how many ships got nuked

[eternal veldt]

Yukikaze/Tan Yang was the flagship of the RoC and personally had Chiang Kai Shek on board.

[thin meteor]

they had like a 100 carriers or something they needed to get rid of

[grave ravine]

Wait no we nuked Independence as well

[eternal veldt]

She's almost bloody cursed. Everywhere she goes, bad luck follows.

[grave ravine]

95

[hot nymph]

At least my states ship didnt get nuked to hell and back

[thin meteor]

what was your states ship

[hot nymph]

the masts are still in my hometown at my university

[hot nymph]

USS West Virginia

[eternal veldt]

Wishful thinking at the time.

[thin meteor]

ah

[hot nymph]

both of them are in Morgantown

[thin meteor]

mine was the USS California

[strong plank]

Oh you’re in Morgantown

My sister’s at uni there

[hot nymph]

ayo rlly?

small world

[eternal veldt]

WeeVee already went through hell and back, tbf

[strong plank]

Forensics major

[hot nymph]

yeah, I go to college here, but was born in Morgantown

[eternal veldt]

Refloating her is hellish

[hot nymph]

facts. we have a little museum of her in the Mountainlair

[eternal veldt]

And cleaning her up is just...

[hot nymph]

what year will she be?

[thin meteor]

nice

[eternal veldt]

I don't know how else to describe it other than torture

[grave ravine]

Yeah, I actually had a Bday party on Texas as a kid one year

[hot nymph]

NIce!

[eternal veldt]

Oil, steel, meat, blood, provisions, ocean fauna all mixed up into a stinking soup

[strong plank]

She’s finished her freshman year

[hot nymph]

I really wanna go see the Constitution

[hot nymph]

Lmfao, legit, same here

[thin meteor]

I went to Missouri once

[strong plank]

Visited Missouri last week

[thin meteor]

was the best moment of that trip

[grave ravine]

Oh yeah, Constitution is really cool, I was fortunate enough to see her a few years back

[hot nymph]

I went to Missouri for the WWI museum

[thin meteor]

i havent seen constitution but ive seen HMS Victory

[grave ravine]

I really want to see Salem sometime

[hot nymph]

I find it amazing that it is till afloat

[grave ravine]

as well as the ships in Britain

[eternal veldt]

As for Nagato, no, she outlived her purpose by 1946

She was already damaged in preceding airstrikes

[thin meteor]

I wanna see the USS Intrepid

[strong plank]

be the state of Washington
reject offer to save USS Washington as a museum ship
complain decades later when you aren’t chosen to host Missouri

[eternal veldt]

Whatever's left of the turrets are left inoperable by 1946

[hot nymph]

yeah, ig it would be too expensive to keep her afloat

[thin meteor]

they should move USS Iowa to Iowa

clearly has water

[eternal veldt]

And nobody in the US will want her afloat

[hot nymph]

Is the US planning to recycle the names of State battleships?

[strong plank]

Already are

[eternal veldt]

Mainly for one reason: She ws where Yamamoto issued the order to attack Pearl Harbor

[strong plank]

for submarines

[thin meteor]

ya

[hot nymph]

gotcha. what are battleships named now then?

[eternal veldt]

The US will get rid of her, one way or the other

[thin meteor]

theres Ohio class subs

[eternal veldt]

Pretty sure we have an Arizona SSN now

[grave ravine]

and Virginia class attack boats

[hot nymph]

god my states sub has been around for ages

[eternal veldt]

Mfw you sink Kirishima

[grave ravine]

Yeah same, Texas was from 2006

[eternal veldt]

Mfw not chosen to be preserved

Me angry

[hot nymph]

makes more sense than being part of Ohio class than Colorado class (geographically speaking)

[strong plank]

https://tenor.com/view/how-do-we-tell-him-mr-krabs-spongebob-meme-spongebob-meme-gif-24063814

[grave ravine]

Even worse was NYC just not stumping up the money to save Enterprise

[thin meteor]

the difference between the USS Arizona BB and the USS Arizona SSN is that the BB has guns

[subtle prawn]

Battleships are no longer built

[eternal veldt]

Enterprise had opposition from her sailors, as stated here multiple times

[thin meteor]

the US should reactivate the Iowas to troll china

[strong plank]

Enterprise also wasn’t in the best shape at the end of the war

[hot nymph]

Here is one of the masts of West Virginia. the other is about a mile away from this one. This one here is on the campus of West Virginia University, and its really cool to walk by it every day.

[eternal veldt]

No. She was repaired after her kamikaze attack in May.

[strong plank]

Yeah repaired

[eternal veldt]

Just the main problem being old, and completely obsolete in the age of heavy and modern aircraft.

Doubly so in the age of jets, where even Essexs struggled against.

[subtle prawn]

Halsey wanted to have her preserved, but that obviously never happened

[grave ravine]

I mean she wasn't really that much more obsolete than an unmodernized Essex, but the USN was not going to modernize a one off

[hot nymph]

Here is a little more info about it. Shocked our state's capital didn't receive them tbh

[strong plank]

The Midways:

[thin meteor]

pluss the essex class were upgraded with angled flight decks

[strong plank]

https://tenor.com/view/assistance-bill-murray-gif-10358346

[eternal veldt]

Midways are much longer and bigger

But then you look at 1991

[strong plank]

Oh I’m not really referring to length

More that the midways were used to test the new jets

[grave ravine]

Yeah the Midways were even able to land Tomcats, though they weren't considered safe for general operation

[strong plank]

Since ya know

Armored flight deck

[eternal veldt]

Go back to bed, Grandma

[thin meteor]

crazy that USS Midway, USS Iowa and USS Nimitz were serving at the same time

[subtle prawn]

Refit actually made Midway really unstable

[hot nymph]

that top left runway lol

[eternal veldt]

Not too sure if armoured flight deck is the main thing

Essexs retained their wood decks even handling jets

Braced down with steel beams

[dapper parcel]

More importantly wider and much higher reserve stability
Essexs had increasingly problematic stability issue after SCB-whatever

[strong plank]

For testing new aircraft, not necessarily for fielding them

So if shit exploded it was less catastrophic

[hot nymph]

why did the US name a ship Essex btw? named after a person, or the English region?

[eternal veldt]

125 and 127 adds significant top weight to the ship, so...

Essex, Massachusetts

[grave ravine]

Famous war of 1812 ship

[eternal veldt]

The first Essex is a 32-gun frigate

Tried to outsmart the RN, but then get outsmarted

[grave ravine]

armed entirely with carronades

[strong plank]

The ww2 Essex is named for the revolutionary war ship

[grave ravine]

turned out not to be briliant

[hot nymph]

Ohhh I gotcha

[strong plank]

Pretty much all of the early ww2 USN carriers had names related to the revolutionary war

[grave ravine]

Wasp and Hornet were also Revolutionary war

as was Enterprise and Ranger

and Bonhomme Richard

[strong plank]

Wasp, Hornet, Ranger, Essex, and Enterprise were named for ships in the war

[eternal veldt]

Thank fuck they did not continue Alliance for long

That one's a sailing circus

[strong plank]

Lexington, Saratoga, Yorktown

[grave ravine]

named after battles

Kearsarge was named after a civil war frigate

[eternal veldt]

Tbf, Kearsarge was always the oddball

[grave ravine]

Langley was named after the aviation pioneer

[grave ravine]

I mean it fits with naming them after past famous USN warships

[strong plank]

Then when you hit the Essex class the names get wonky

[eternal veldt]

I meant more that for battleships

Typically after states

[grave ravine]

Intrepid was from the Barbary War

[strong plank]

The USN naming a carrier after a joke FDR made

[eternal veldt]

Kearsarge: a BB

[strong plank]

[grave ravine]

Oh yeah Kearsarge the BB was an oddball

[hot nymph]

Whenever I think of the name Lexington, I always assumed it was named after the town in Kentucky

[eternal veldt]

Then attached a big fuckoff crane to her

Truly incredible

[strong plank]

for the battle of Lexington

[grave ravine]

Franklin and Randolph were just named after founding fathers

[thin meteor]

they should name a target drone after donald trump

[grave ravine]

and Hancock

[eternal veldt]

You sure Randolph isnt after the frigate

[hot nymph]

Oh, gotcha, makes a bit more sense now lol

[eternal veldt]

Ah, it was both

[hot nymph]

Are they done naming carriers after presidents?

[strong plank]

Funny how the battle of Lexington got a battlecruiser carrier named for it, but the battle of Concord just got a light cruiser

[eternal veldt]

They kinda are

[strong plank]

Sorta

[eternal veldt]

CVN-80 is Enterprise

81 is Doris Miller

[thin meteor]

they kinda ran out of meaningful presidents

[strong plank]

It’s not about meaningful

It’s which Presidents the navy likes

[eternal veldt]

Would be funny if they stuck to the original Lexington BC names

[hot nymph]

and both battles were as equally important. also, i completely forgot about the battle of Lexington lol

[eternal veldt]

Say, CV-5 continues as United States/Constellation

And CV-6 as Constitution, etc

[strong plank]

JFK, Ford, and Bush all served in the navy

[hot nymph]

wait, so was portland named after the city in Maine, or Oregon? I'm assuming Maine, since it was probably larger of a town at that time

[strong plank]

And Reagan worked to significantly expand the USN during his tenure

[eternal veldt]

Or name Ranger as Congress just to tell it to shove it up their asses

[thin meteor]

and abraham lincoln is abraham lincoln

[hot nymph]

and washington is washington

[grave ravine]

No Constitution probably because we already have a Constitution

[strong plank]

God we were so close to a 600 ship navy

[thin meteor]

unless USS Constitution commits alt-f4 we arent having a constitution

[strong plank]

if the Soviets had collapsed just a little bit later

[eternal veldt]

Nice, except Constitution was renamed as Old Constitution to free the name up for the CC

[grave ravine]

Per wiki Maine

[eternal veldt]

So, Constitution is on the table until otherwise

[hot nymph]

thought so, thanks for the intel

[grave ravine]

USS New Ironsides moment

[thin meteor]

i mean technically the us had a 600+ ship navy in world war 2

[hot nymph]

i have no clue what the us will name their newer ships

new*

[eternal veldt]

Neither do we, we just know their convention

And it is not as demented as the RN system

[strong plank]

subs tend to be either states or people

[deep apex]

New Mexico

[thin meteor]

destroyers are people, cruisers are cities, carriers are mixed, heli carriers are battles

[eternal veldt]

Why yes, the sister to Warspite is uh...

Right, King George VI, makes fucking sense

[thin meteor]

wasnt it Queen Elizabeth

[eternal veldt]

Also, Type 31s nearly got clowned on for being reportedly called "Inspiration" class (it wasnt)

[strong plank]

be the USN
rename the name ship of a new class bc you forgot you already used the name

[eternal veldt]

The subs

[strong plank]

ok I guess that’s technically not true

iirc Columbia was meant to be retired just in time to hand off the name

[thin meteor]

i mean they are inspiring other navies not to use dumbass names

[strong plank]

But then she wasn’t

So now the name ship of the Columbia class is….

District of Columbia

[hot nymph]

uss dc baby

[eternal veldt]

I don't think its a dumbass system, since most pay homage to important ships or people

Its just that its impossible to predict

[thin meteor]

USS Washington District of Columbia

[hot nymph]

idk start naming ships after colleges

[eternal veldt]

Case in point, Malaya being funded by Malaya, and flew the flag of Malaya

[thin meteor]

USS San Jose State University

[grave ravine]

The Royal Navy system is basically imagine the USN aircraft carrier naming system but for everything

[hot nymph]

i was thinking more like USS Princeton

[eternal veldt]

Dreadnought, Warspite, both are exceptionally traditional names in the RN

[hot nymph]

USS University of Texas at Austin would make me cry

[eternal veldt]

We kinda have two Princetons already...

Not named after the Uni, of course

[hot nymph]

fair point

USS Yale

[grave ravine]

USN Please

[strong plank]

Shangri-La and Midway still have massive chad energy

[thin meteor]

USS University of California Los Angeles

[hot nymph]

USS University of California-Pennsylvania

yes, that is an actual college

[thin meteor]

USS Alabama Agricultural and Mechanical University

[eternal veldt]

If you are truly unoriginal

[hot nymph]

USS Indiana University – Purdue University Indianapolis

[eternal veldt]

Be the US ice cream barges

Named after chemical elements

[hot nymph]

name it after american food then?

USS Cheeseburger

[eternal veldt]

Why yes, we do have a USS Uranium

[thin meteor]

USS Philly Cheesesteak

[deep apex]

USS Blake's Lotaburger

I refuse to elaborate

[strong plank]

I mean

[thin meteor]

USS Clam Chowder

[hot nymph]

USS McDonalds

[strong plank]

battleships were named for states to help raise money for them

so

sponsorships aren't entirely without precedent

[hot nymph]

wouldnt be surprised if a rich ass college actually tries that then

[strong plank]

I was about to say

USS West Point

but

the navy naming a ship after the army academy

[hot nymph]

USS Army would piss the hell out of Navy

[eternal veldt]

Just keep in mind that how a name sounds is also important

[thin meteor]

USS United States Naval Academy

[eternal veldt]

Coral Sea got a bunch of...colourful nicknames

[hot nymph]

USS USS

[eternal veldt]

Coral Shit, Oral Sex are the two more vulgar ones

[hot nymph]

speaking of that

USS Oral Roberts

[thin meteor]

USS Oral Sex is a catchy name

[hot nymph]

USS Colgate

[thin meteor]

USS Doggystyle

[deep apex]

USS full nelson

get cuz it's named after the thing huh huh huh

[hot nymph]

USS Flicking the Bean

[deep apex]

[hot nymph]

Anyways, serious question, when was the USS Enterprise scrapped?

[eternal veldt]

~1960

[hot nymph]

lasted longer than i thought tbh

[eternal veldt]

Even in time to see the new Independence being completed

But again, shows how small Enterprise is at this point

[strong plank]

and by that time the new enterprise was already under construction

it's funny that

now CVN-65 is still here while 80 is being built

[eternal veldt]

At least her nameplate was well preserved

Compared to....fucking Shangri La

P l a n t O r n a m e n t

[strong plank]

damn tato's prolly asleep isn't he

my folks got to go to the army event yesterday and got to look inside the stryker shorad

[subtle prawn]

So what did they think about it?

[strong plank]

my dad thought it was pretty neat how it was set up for counter-uas

my mom, who doesn't know too much about this sort of thing, thought it was funny

apparently the turret is controlled with what's basically a console controller

[desert agate]

okay but that kid drippin

[alpine onyx]

Per Stalin's wish, the Kriegsmarine was split into three groups and then lots were drawn. The main focus of each group being the cruiser, which determined the overall value of each lot. Eugen was the main price, then Nürnberg as an operational and semi modernized CL and lastly Shitzig which was just barely afloat. US got the Eugen-lot, UK the Shitzig-lot and Stalin, much to his dismay, the Nürnberg-lot.

To no one's surprise Shitzig got discarded immediately (with or without questionable load, sources go either way). Nürnberg became Makarov, and served quite some time in the VMF, and the US studied Eugen as the most modernized German surface vessel, took what equipment they wanted to keep, and then nuked her.

Would've been hilarious if the USSR drew Shitzig, since they needed operational ships the most

Shitzig lot would also have Z-31, which while a seasoned warship with a decent record was also a ship that got hastily patched up early 1945 to keep fighting, so she'd need some more love than the 1936As the USSR got with Nürnberg

[eternal veldt]

You know what would be funny

Shitzig used in post war explosive tests like Z38

Just break her keel and end her misery

[shrewd pecan]

My work schedules fucked to where I usually have to wake up at 3 AM my time

[shrewd pecan]

Just didn’t get a chance to respond until now

[thorn trail]

Those 2 ships just above are the Renown class right?

[eternal veldt]

No, two Queen Elizabeths.

[thorn trail]

Oh I thought it was Renowns because I can't see the 4th turret in the back

[eternal veldt]

Renowns have two funnels - these are one.

or rather, two trunked into one.

[thorn trail]

Wait Silver while you are here, why are the front faces of the British and German BB seem to be flatter or not sloped compared to the other turret faces of other BBs

[eternal veldt]

Haven't really investigated myself. Can only reply on the KGVs, as replied on navweaps.

"The reason for sloped turret faces is primarily geometric. For normal trunnion locations, if the turret face is not sloped back, then for large angles of [gun] elevation, as in post-1930 ships, the gunports get very large and start to eat away at the turret roof. If the angle of elevation is small as on older ships, [then the] angles of fall [of shells fired by enemy ships] would be equally small, so a slanted faceplate which would deflect rounds upward makes sense. If the angle of elevation is large and a vertical front plate is seen to be desirable, as in KGV etc., then one answer to avoiding cutting long slots in the roofplates is to move the trunnions far forward. This makes the overall rotating structure and the guns themselves harder to balance and complicates gun elevation mechanisms. On KGV a compromise was made; the trunnions were moved as far forward as possible, and the front plate was moved BACK as far as was feasible. Even so, the maximum angle of elevation was limited to 40 degrees. There is little saving in weight in moving to a vertical faceplate, in some cases less than none.

[chilly osprey]

Since Sirene already gave a good response for German ships, I can address the Italians.

As apparent with the territorial concessions, and the fact Italy was allowed to maintain a military after the war, Italy's penalties under the Treaty of Paris between Italy and the Allied Powers of 1947 were comparatively mild compared to what happened to Germany and Japan. This was due to the Italians signing an armistice in September 1943, and from then on in the wake of the German invasion of Italy, fought as a co-belligerent of the Allied powers.

Though the original armistice stipulated the surrender of Italian forces, with the way events turned out, the Italian navy never actually surrendered to the allied forces and instead transitioned directly into a co-belligerent force under the terms of the 'long armistice', which had modifications that, with the exception of the deactivation of some of the battleships, allowed the Regia Marina to remain under its own flag and command while working under the overall operational control of Allied supreme command (as with every allied navy).

And, with the exception of some captured French warships that were given over to the Free French Naval Forces, the RM did not have to worry about any ship transfers - even while Stalin was malding in the Kremlin and demanding that the Allies immediately hand over Italian battleships, the Allies really didn't want to, and they didn't actually control and Italian battleships to hand over in the first place.

With that said, after the war, the permanent peace - the Paris Peace Treaty of 1947 - was hashed out, and Italy - and the Regia Marina (now the Marina Militare - did have to pay the price of its Axis belligerency.

Under the terms of the treaty, Italy was restricted from operating battleships, aircraft carriers, motor torpedo boats, submarines, or special forces assault craft. The fleet itself was restricted to two older battleships (Duilio and Andrea Doria) - which they were not allowed to replace once retired - four light cruisers, four destroyers, 16 torpedo boats/destroyer escorts, 20 corvettes, and a force of minesweepers, light ASW craft, and auxiliaries and training ships. They were not allowed to build any new ships before 1950.

A large part of their existing force - three battleships (including the modern Italia and Vittorio Veneto), four light cruisers, seven destroyers, six torpedo boats/destroyer escorts, eight submarines, the entire MTB force, and a large portion of the amphibious, light ASW, gunboat, and auxiliary fleet was to be given over to the US, UK, USSR, and France.

Ultimately, however, Greece, Yugoslavia, and even Albania got some ships as reparations.

Such as it was, while the Soviets tried to get every last ship they thought they were owed, the other Allied powers generally had their positions negotiated down. The US and Britain both, for example, forewent all their allotted ships on the condition that they were scrapped - the British requested the scrap for themselves, but the Americans allowed the Italians to keep it for reconstruction efforts.

French allocations were also negotiated down somewhat - one of the three cruisers allocated to them was retained by Italy and ultimately rebuilt into a destroyer leader, while another ended up being used as reparations to Greece instead. As compensation, it seems, the French received the cruiser originally allocated to the United States.

It's also interesting to note that Italy was able to keep both submarines that were supposed to go to France, but instead of scrapping them used them as 'floating charging stations' - at least on paper. In practice they were send out at night for training activities, illegally, at least until the treaty was rendered null at the end of the decade and Italy joined NATO. This allowed Italy to maintain a core of experienced and trained submariners to rebuild their submarine fleet after the expiration of the peace treaty.

If you're curious about the development of the Marina Militare immediately after the end of the peace treaty (1951), I can talk about that too, but I'll hold off for now because I don't want to interrupt the conversation any more than I have already (sorry about that guys!).

[thorn trail]

So mostly as a weight saving measure for the KGV's at least?

[eternal veldt]

No. That is not the full excerpt. I didn't want to interrupt Phoenix's essay.

. . . moving from a sloped to a vertical faceplate is usually nearly weight-neutral, although some savings can be achieved by thinning the vertical face somewhat as it is now much more oblique to incoming (long-range only) fire than a sloped face is. Several problems remain. On KGV, moving the face back left an inconvenient "D" shaped portion of the top of the barbette uncovered forward of the faceplate, a situation aggravated by the probability that long range fire, even if deflected, would be channeled downwards into the "D". On KGV, this "D" underneath the gun chases was about 115 ft2 (10.7 m2) in area, which needed to be protected at least as well as the turret roof. This added protection would weigh about 13 additional tons. A final problem lies in the construction of the face plate itself. Such a plate is much stronger if it can be made in one piece with two, three, or four (as required) vertical slots cut into it for gunports. This in turn requires at least a thin band of material above and below the port openings to hold the whole thing together. Because the slots are quite problematical in a vertical plate to begin with, there is a tendency to revert to installing a number of smaller plates joined together, which is not as strong, though arguably cheaper to manufacture.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BcTujhcrso

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/BoeingDefense/status/1668214076986519553

Boeing Defense (@BoeingDefense)

Cleared for takeoff!

T-7A #RedHawk received its Military Flight Release (MFR) from the @USAirForce, signaling clearance for first flight. The MFR affirms that all air worthiness processes have been met to conduct flight and test operations of the advanced trainer.

Likes

304

Twitter · Jun 12, 2023, 11:10 AM

[zealous vine]

Is there an analysis on the effects of diff ship calibers against the hulls of diff ship types?

I know there are large quality differences between each navy, but a rough estimate should suffice.

[chilly osprey]

It's kind of impossible to get a rough estimate for general use - the reality is that so much depends on what is hitting where

Ex, probably one of the best examples of this is Cape Matapan

[zealous vine]

Right sorry I forgot how vast this topic

is

Let me think of a more specific thing

[chilly osprey]

As far as best reconstructions can figure, Zara took far more punishment than her sister Fiume, taking possible three times as many 15" hits.

Despite this, Fiume sank in 45 minutes.

Zara actually did not suffer any truly fatal damage, heavily hit as she was, and stayed afloat for another four hours until her crew set of charges in her magazines to prevent any potential capture by the British.

Zara and Fiume were both members of the same class, being fired at by the same 15" guns (and 6" and 4.5" guns, but the latter seem to have had no noticeable effect), and yet results were very different just because Fiume took a blow that started flooding below the waterline, and Zara did not.

[desert agate]

@spiral cedar is your man here

[zealous vine]

On a side note, how does one cap a ship that size?

[chilly osprey]

Capture a ship?

If it's immobilized and without power, then the general idea is either you convinced the crew to surrender to save their own lives, or if they've already abandoned ship, then there's no one left to try and fight against you.

This is why it was standard practice to set off scuttling charges just after a ship was abandoned, to prevent its potential capture, or even just a search by the enemy.

[zealous vine]

and how much above water structural damage would it take to actually topple a ship over without crew scuttling?

[chilly osprey]

Ex, there are a couple of cases during the war when submarines were either captured or successfully searched by ASW forces that had forced it to surface because scuttling efforts failed.

[eternal veldt]

Sometimes, setting off charges isn't enough either

USS Stewart being probably one of the more famous cases

[chilly osprey]

If there's no damage below the waterline, the ship will just stay afloat.

Maybe a violent enough storm would put down a drifting wreck?

[zealous vine]

So if there was resistance, the captors just go guns blazing, then return said ship to conditions enough to dock at safe waters?

[eternal veldt]

open hatches would still contribute to flooding, I think?

[chilly osprey]

Depends on how many are open, both on deck and below deck

And how much above waterline damage compromises watertight integrity

[eternal veldt]

Yea, depends on how haphazardly the evacuation took place.

[chilly osprey]

If there is resistance, they probably just shell the ship a few times and ask them if they'll reconsider their resistance.

[zealous vine]

[chilly osprey]

Machine guns and rifles make for poor argument against >100mm guns

[eternal veldt]

Boarding action actually took place in a few close clashes between U-boats and smaller destroyer escorts due to how close they took place

Buckley's crew utilized everything from machine guns, grenades, to coffee mugs against a sub

[chilly osprey]

But, generally speaking, this kind of stuff was extremely rate

As Silver Tears just said, captures at sea only really happened with submarines

[zealous vine]

Wasn't there a similar case but with potatoes

[eternal veldt]

If you mean O'Bannon, it was an embellished tale - possibly due to a cook saying how the Ro-34 was "within a potato's throw"

[chilly osprey]

Otherwise, you only really see boardings happen in port, and usually those are executed with surprise on their side - ex, see the British seizure of French ships in British ports in 1940.

[eternal veldt]

Borie and Buckley's encounters with U-boats, however, are likely more factual

I forgot which scuttled French DDs the Italians attempted to put back into service

also tried to salvage La Galissoniere if I recall- visibly in better shape compared to the cruisers with demo charges set off

[zealous vine]

Aight thanks 👍

Back to a previous point about shell vs ship, I wanna talk about AP and HE

Is it actually better off shooting HE against light-armoreds like DDs, CLs?

[eternal veldt]

right, two Chacals

[zealous vine]

I've read AP shells could over pen, but it can exit under the waterline which can be fatal (and whatever compartments it had ripped through)

[chilly osprey]

Of those successfully put back into service;

Jaguar-class - Tigre as FR23, and Panthère as FR22
Guépard-class - Lion as FR21
Bourrasque-class - Trombe as FR31

[eternal veldt]

The main thing is that a projectile travelling through your ship, especially through the vital parts, is no good, AP or not

I have to double check who hit Johnston again, but what it did was hit her machinery, cutting her steam lines and instantly scalding her boiler crew to death - and most importantly, cutting the ship's speed significantly

Then you have the poor Fougueux

At 0940 a 16-inch round fired from 12,000 yards crashed into Fougueux. This, the first direct hit obtained by an American warship, crumpled the destroyer’s bow up to the quarterdeck, drove the stem underwater, and set the bridge afire. Fougueux rapidly flooded and Commander Sticca ordered the crew to abandon ship.

Massachusetts just completely demolished her

[chilly osprey]

It entirely depends on the era you're in and what guns you're using, but for the most part armor-piercing rounds were used against major warships like cruisers, battleships, and carriers.

Both AP and HE would be used against destroyers - it really depends on the situation.

[zealous vine]

Holy shit

Was it like a broadside hit or did the AP ram through bow to stern?

[chilly osprey]

For larger caliber guns HE could be a better pick against destroyers, but that also depends on whether or not the ship had HE in the first place. It was remarkably common in post-WWI battleships for battleship guns not to have HE shells designed for them.

[eternal veldt]

Direct bow hit if I recall based on these words alone

but Fougueux wasn't the only one Massy maimed

[chilly osprey]

It's also worth keeping in mind that for larger guns it is very much a PITA to swap between ammunition types, so often if you're already firing with AP, it just does not make sense to try and get HE ammunition brought up if you're switching targets.

[eternal veldt]

Le Malin, another victim

[chilly osprey]

You just create too much of a delay and often the HE has entirely different ballistic behaviour versus the HE shells.

[eternal veldt]

Milan, also nailed by Massy's 16" shell, and quite possibly the longest hit at 28,000 yards

[chilly osprey]

Oh, here's a fun example.

So this is from a section on target types and ammunition selection from a gunnery pamphlet of the Regia Marina, that dates to September 1942. This table is referencing what ammunition types should be used by what guns against various types of American warships;

In some categories we get more specific than others

[zealous vine]

[eternal veldt]

There we have it. Johnston was hit by Yamato.

[chilly osprey]

Ex, for the 381/50, it was generally advised to use heavy armor-piercing against most types of American battleships at ranges of 20 km or less, but against the more heavily protected types - SAPC at long range for better explosive content against upper works. Against the older Nevada and New York-classes - APC all the way. Against all cruisers, destroyers, and aircraft carriers - SAP.

On the other end of the spectrum, destroyer-caliber guns (120 & 135mm) were just advised to use SAP (in destroyer calibers, equivalent to American 'Special Common') against all targets at ranges of less than 10 km, but HE against all targets at ranges past 10 km.

152mm guns were advised to use HE against battleships and destroyers, but against cruisers or aircraft carriers, APC was advised within 15 km, and HE beyond 15 km.

Etc, etc

[zealous vine]

Cool

How did these work out in actual engagements?

[chilly osprey]

Fortunately or unfortunately, for these specific examples, we never got any clashes between major Italian and American warships.

That said, at least against the British - generally speaking the guidelines tended to replicate what was done, though, most examples of 152mm cruiser guns tend to actually show more use of APC at long range against targets rather than the HE generally advised - but, it's worth noting most engagments happened after this document was released, so it's possible that doctrinal practice was different before this point.

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1668286599602270211

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1942, a team of Nazi saboteurs landed in New York with orders to create havoc by attacking key US infrastructure. One of the saboteurs turned himself in and helped the FBI capture the others. Six Nazis were executed and buried in a secret cemetery in Washington, D.C.

▶ Play video

Twitter · Jun 12, 2023, 3:58 PM

[zealous vine]

Was there difference in effectiveness between 152 and 203mm guns for different navies?

[chilly osprey]

Are you asking about 152mm vs 203mm as a caliber, or 203mm from navy A vs 203mm from navy B?

[zealous vine]

as a caliber, and how it varied between each navy

so 152 vs 203 in navy A, and 152 vs 203 in navy B

Maybe for simplification, USN - IJN and RoyalN - KMS (unless you've already written beyond that)

[chilly osprey]

So, the main difference across all navies is that 152mm guns were lighter gun systems with higher rates of fire, but much lighter shells, too.

Ex, a typical 203mm shell was 2.5x heavier than a 152mm shell (125 kg vs 50 kg), while cyclical rate of fire in 203mm guns was generally 3-4 rpm (2-3 rpm practical at medium to long range) versus 5-8 rpm in 6" guns (4-5 rpm practical at medium to long range).

203mm guns generally performed very well against cruisers - most cruisers did not have armor sufficent to defend against 203mm APC at typical combat ranges, while 152mm was generally much easier to protect against. Larger cruisers often had armor that made 152mm APC of limited effectiveness at medium to long range.

On the other hand, 152mm guns were generally better as general-purpose guns. Their higher rate of fire and lower weight made them more ideal as guns to defend against flotilla ships like destroyers. This made them more attractive as secondary batteries on battleships (while 203mm was never used as a secondary battery gun on anything but pre-dreadnought battleships), and likewise on cruiser designs constrained by weight, it was also popular as more could be fitted than if one was using 203mm guns. Ex, see the smaller British 'fleet' cruisers like the Leander or Arethusa-class.