history

[ivory ridge]

Just remember those are 76 and not like

35

[manic latch]

Front is 127mm ye

[ivory ridge]

Ye but i mean seeing those back there might be confusing if you're used to phalanx or 35mm turrets in the same spots

[neon oyster]

What tat. Looks Italian

[ivory ridge]

It is

[manic latch]

Italian flag looks Italian ye

[neon oyster]

Royal Navy really like fitted for but not with huh

[manic latch]

QE lacks her 4 30mm still yes

[ivory ridge]

One of the possible DDX designs, the new italian destroyers that will replace the old Durand de la penne class

[neon oyster]

If it wants to keep up with most modern DDs atm it should be about 055 size I suppose

[manic latch]

I find her weight super odd given Super Gorshkov is 7k-8k tons with this body

Maybe she will be wide

[neon oyster]

Those 1990s tech ships are gonna need to go

[ivory ridge]

No VLS destroyer still commissioned until 2028 feels bad

[neon oyster]

Fat gorshkov

[ivory ridge]

Even the fremm are better destroyers than these

[manic latch]

Thicc

[manic latch]

Looks better on front angle however

[neon oyster]

At least I like how she looks. And to think an Italy Stan was making fun of t23 when this thing is still in their navy

[neon oyster]

Still looks strange and I’d say ugly

[manic latch]

God she just scream cold war

Those ass Fire directors especially

[neon oyster]

Yeah looks like a gun cruiser (which it basically is)

[neon oyster]

No vls in 2023

[manic latch]

Nah like

Obvious Fire director antennas
Missile launcher turrets
Naked moving radar

[neon oyster]

In some ways looks similar to t23, cause they were made in the same timeframe probably

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1666440052002439169

Navy Lookout (@NavyLookout)

In an echo of the recent HMS Glasgow incident, 🇫🇷French frigate Amiral Ronarc'h under construction in Lorient had cables cut in act of sabotage.

https://t.co/bYRSuDXyy1

Likes

427

Twitter · Jun 7, 2023, 1:40 PM

[neon oyster]

What could have been

[neon oyster]

What

[ivory ridge]

Are they seriously refitting these

[neon oyster]

Durand?

[ivory ridge]

Type 23

[neon oyster]

Oh yeah they’ll be around for a few more years

[ivory ridge]

We dont use harpoons, nor NSM

[manic latch]

Project 61: Give me all antennas

[neon oyster]

Look we can only make so many t26/31 at once ok

[ivory ridge]

That weight sounds very conservative but idk

[manic latch]

Ye

[neon oyster]

Looks like they stuck those power line thingies on a ship

[ivory ridge]

Then again modern designs are like

[manic latch]

They were the first class of Soviet warships designed to survive a nuclear explosion, and as a result had the main ship control station on the lower deck deep in the hull, separate from the enclosed bridge

[ivory ridge]

Steel is cheap, the systems are not

[manic latch]

Bureaucracy is expensive

God imagine having extra tax for navy

Would be based

[neon oyster]

Fund new cv

[manic latch]

South Korea would love that

[neon oyster]

Perhaps QEs can finally get catapults

[neon oyster]

CVX looks like a goofy QE

[manic latch]

Sadly many citizens don't care about military funding so

Naval Tax won't be happy

[ivory ridge]

It was codesigned by the QE designers

[neon oyster]

I’d imagine everyone would start acting Fr*nch

[neon oyster]

Really?

[manic latch]

They need help yes

Can't design CV alone

[neon oyster]

Buy cv from uk, I’m sure BAE would be happy to accept

[ivory ridge]

https://www.babcockinternational.com/news/babcock-international-group-and-hyundai-heavy-industries-sign-a-memorandum-of-understanding-in-republic-of-korea/

[neon oyster]

How about we just end Ajax and buy cv90, that would probably be enough

[ivory ridge]

Back in 2021 there were 2 designs

One from HHI, with the help of babkok
The other from DSME, with the help of Fincantieri

Both built carriers with twin islands

So the HHI proposal was a smaller QE

While the DSME proposal was a bigger trieste

[neon oyster]

[ivory ridge]

The the project was dropped like

3 times

[neon oyster]

That’s still be better than continuing, by a long shot

[ivory ridge]

And now we got to that monstrosity of 70k tons

[neon oyster]

SK being indecisive:

[ivory ridge]

Which has the same chance of happening as north korea nuking Seoul

[neon oyster]

Yeah I doubt this will get anywhere honestly, I don’t really see how SK really needs a cv urgently

All of their enemies are next door (kinda bad but whatever)

[shrewd pecan]

oops all boxer

[neon oyster]

That works too

[chilly osprey]

Yep. The plan was to basically use the NSM sets to help tide them over until they start getting the new frigates and the anti-ship capability of FC/ASW starting in 2028 and beyond.

[ivory ridge]

[chilly osprey]

That said it is no longer clear that will be possible;

https://twitter.com/FTusa284/status/1666406426300805121?t=5Qa5zchCnrZ3jA1QLst29A&s=19

Francis Tusa (@FTusa284)

@thinkdefence @UKDefenceJourn @harry_lye @RoyalNavy @Dominic2306 @DomNicholls @MarkNicolDM @MarkHookham @sylviapfeifer @SheridanDani @jeromestarkey @DefenceHQ @DefenceHQPress @JohnHealey_MP @rich_scott2 In the aftermath of @NavyLookout story on HMS Westminster...

Twitter · Jun 7, 2023, 11:27 AM

A number of the Type 23's that are supposed to last longer are in pretty bad condition, because they've already had life extension refits on ships only meant to serve 18-20 years

Ex, Westminster is currently in refit but it's looking to become so expensive that they've apparently suspended the refit and may can her early.

And two other T23's are rumored to be similarly far gone.

[junior trench]

also FC/ASW is a multinational European project

[subtle prawn]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/first-marine-corps-tomahawk-cruise-missile-unit-has-stood-up

[dapper parcel]

Is GLCM in the menu again?

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/Gabriel64869839/status/1666528735703584772

Gabriele Molinelli (@Gabriel64869839)

I saw image this morning but, honestly, it left me dubious and i did not share. But it reportedly does originate from a BAE Systems PowerPoint used in a talk which involved Robert May, Engineering Manager Type 26, and Neil Griffiths, Technical Authority Future Projects, so...

Twitter · Jun 7, 2023, 7:33 PM

[supple sandal]

Why Soviet tanks have low reverse speed

[glass trail]

one reason might be that they all pretty much use the same engines despite getting bigger

[supple sandal]

WHY

[manic latch]

It's about transmission not engine, since some models have better engines

[manic latch]

Irrc more reverse gears means you need a larger transmission

Which means you need a bigger tank

And well...

[runic prairie]

Iirc one of the biggest upgrades to the Ukrainian T-84 was a new transmission to have a high reverse speed.

[manic latch]

She has 4 reverse gears yeah

Can do 35km

[supple sandal]

Is the T-84 is just a updated T-80

[manic latch]

It came from Diesel T-80

No gas turbine

[shrewd pecan]

its a evolution of the T-80

[dapper parcel]

There's actually quite a lot of "wasted" space on the standard T-72 transmission design

Renk managed to get a 8+4 transmission rated for twice the power as a drop-in replacement

[supple sandal]

https://youtu.be/MvMgp-eSjAo

[cinder escarp]

More reverse gears adds more space and complexity in the transmission(s) - and you don't need to reverse at high speed much in actual combat.

[dapper parcel]

If you ever look at T-72 under the hood, there's actually a lot of free space along the transmission case that you can easily add two or more stages even
I guess it's a case of good enough for the doctrine

Renk managed to put 8+4 transmission there

Kharkiv managed to put a damn 5TDFMA there

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYaR2ek5H-Q

[cinder escarp]

Well of course, the 5TD engine is both far more compact than the V-diesels and has three outputs (drive output on either end, mid-mounted PTO).

The V-diesel has only the single crank output, and so powering the cooling system and splitting the power between the two transmissions is... funny. There's a complicated transfer case.

Transfer case splits the power three ways - one to each transmission, and one to the cooling fan. The V-diesels are watercooled, unlike the XTD engines.

Kartsev at UVZ stuck with proven, reliable, and durable concepts for the T-72 all over the place. The fancy briefcase motors used in the T-64s are really incredible in their power output for their size and weight, but are operationally very troublesome.

[dapper parcel]

The feat here is putting the engine between the transmission

There's just that much free space

i.e. if the original T-72 designer want to add more gears, they can easily done

[cinder escarp]

It has more to do with how tiny the BKP half-transmissions are, and how tiny 5TD is.

The BKPs and the 5TD were developed for the T-64, which has a much smaller engine bay.

[dapper parcel]

My point was that they can add more gears, but they didn't

[cinder escarp]

So: they can't really, not with the design of half-transmission used.

In the T-64/72/80 the transmissions and final drive are all in the same unified housing.

And yes, each track has its own transmission.

It's very cramped.

[dapper parcel]

It is "just" a typical planetary gear, push come to shove they can "just" put additional stage to the input
which is what most truck transmission does

well, it's a bit complicated for the reverse gear
but that the BKP only having a single reverse gear is kinda unique for a planetary gearbox in the first place

[cinder escarp]

It's really a fascinating setup.

They watned to use as few gear ratios as possible, even in the planetary setup. Why? Cost.

[dapper parcel]

You'd expect two forward and one reverse, and multiplies of that for a planetary gear

It's just matter of fact of the design

[cinder escarp]

Setup has 4 gearsets and 6 clutches.

And here's the gearset engagement chart

The big issue is there's no variable steering in this setup: steering is done with brakes or by changing gears (e.g. one track in 4th, one in 3rd)

[charred coral]

https://youtu.be/mzUdDw3xZlg

[charred coral]

it would be cool if there was a massive artwork of all the Azur Lane ships who were at Normandy

[spring briar]

We’d need Montcalm and Georges Leygues for that

And manjuu refuses to give us french ships

So

[charred coral]

And Ramilles and Arkansas

[spring briar]

[autumn sorrel]

Don’t forget Tex

[tough quail]

DID YOU KNOW

FLOODING???

[spring briar]

Shoutout to all the ships providing demoralising fire support

I think people underrate the effect a bunch of large caliber shells exploding around your position has on someone

[remote monolith]

33 warships in total

oops sorry, but oh well

anyway, that's some firepower

[stiff mauve]

They had a CV shooting up the beach??

[spring briar]

Should be HMS Enterprise

Not USS

Somehow they also added uss to georges leygues and montcalm…

[tough quail]

or just fucking seeing that on the horizon at alll

[spring briar]

What the fuck

Fucking americans putting their weak ass prefix on my french ship’s names

[tough quail]

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1666827308760543232

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1967, 34 crew members were killed and 171 wounded when USS Liberty was attacked by Israeli forces. Israel apologized for the attack, claiming that the Liberty had been mistaken for an Egyptian ship. Too badly damaged to be repaired, the Liberty was scrapped.

Twitter · Jun 8, 2023, 3:19 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/Forsvaret_no/status/1666433230721957888

Norwegian Armed Forces | Forsvaret (@Forsvaret_no)

The Royal Norwegian Navy executed a successful live missile firing with #NSM during an exercise last night. It was fired at the environmentally certified, decommissioned corvette X-HNoMS Æger that sank due to the missile hit.

Likes

207

Twitter · Jun 7, 2023, 1:13 PM

[manic latch]

Agir bites the dust

🇳🇴

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/australia-to-get-one-new-build-virginia-class-submarine-two-from-u-s-navy

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1666849066305695756

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD 1940, the German battleship Scharnhorst scored one of the longest-range naval gunfire hits in history when a projectile struck HMS Glorious from almost 15 miles away. Scharnhorst and sister ship Gneisenau then moved closer and fired several salvos that sank the carrier.

Twitter · Jun 8, 2023, 4:46 PM

[spring briar]

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEX8JJ0eXL4

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFHPwoDA2EQ

[shrewd pecan]

always gotta love pictures of USN Hong Kong port visits

[neon oyster]

Sadly usn probably won’t be doing anymore for a good while

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/RyszardJonski/status/1666871195218608134

Junsupreme (@RyszardJonski)

BAE Systems admits UK is no longer able to produce large caliber barrels.
UK may have to cannibalize stored CR2 tanks and AS90 to procure replacement barrels.
Challenger 2 is armed with a 120mm L30 cannon, manufactured in the ROF Nottingham, closed a few years ago.

Twitter · Jun 8, 2023, 6:13 PM

[neon oyster]

Bri’ish moment

[neon oyster]

[thick timber]

It is like seeing fps models in 3rd person

[runic prairie]

People love to whine about the U.S. still buying Abrams tanks even though we have thousands in storage.

Shit like this is why.

Retaining relatively low production for a while, with the capability to increase, is necessary for a domestic military industry. Restarting production take a while and is expensive.

[neon oyster]

Where did arms industry when u need them? Oh yeah bankrupt

[dapper parcel]

Do they really have no capability at all?

120mm gun, sure, maybe still tolerable. But to not have any capacity for standard tube artillery like 155mm is simply baffling

Tbf I've lost track whatever happen to industries acquire by BAe

[shrewd pecan]

and that's how we end up with the UK operating German made guns and Swedish made Artillery

[tough quail]

it's here @spring briar

[spring briar]

Mas lady

[ivory ridge]

pagne

[tough quail]

splendid

this thing is in absolutely fantastic condition

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2023/06/08/gao-zumwalt-class-virginia-attack-boats-risks-delays-in-fielding-hypersonic-missiles

[neon oyster]

Time to buy German guns

[rapid junco]

@ivory ridge

[ivory ridge]

[rapid junco]

We had Flak88s

Its funny that we had bought some kind of german equipment
On the years prior to the world wars
Only for the said wars to ruin the shipment of said equipment

[autumn sorrel]

Ok, which one of you jinx it?
https://twitter.com/vodk_anon/status/1666821647960252418?s=46&t=VmBPf9V3wtTffwschA-ygw

Vodka 🧊 (@vodk_anon)

South Korea out here with the Cyberpunk looking carrier

Likes

8688

Retweets

663

Twitter · Jun 8, 2023, 2:57 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/06/block-v-virginia-class-attack-subs-delayed-2-years-due-to-staffing-problems-gao/

[manic latch]

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/06/leonardo-announces-new-defence-systems-for-naval-platforms/

[charred coral]

Odd question, but I’m curious; did any African countries have something that would be classed as a navy?
I reckon South Africa would be the most likely.

[charred coral]

In general, or around WW2 if possible

[autumn sorrel]

That’s would be Royal Navy or Marine Nationale

In present time, except North Africa country navy, maybe South Africa is the only significant one but more of a patrol navy

Hmm, wouldn’t Egypt navy in ww2 be part of the Commonwealth force, it would be logical for them to be small when the security of the canal is place on Royal Navy garrison and Mediterranean fleet

[charred coral]

I see

[manic latch]

Shame Africa never got a chance to reach high development chance

Would be interesting to see how their ww2 designs would look like

[charred coral]

I wonder if the 'North Africa' countries actually took part in the campaign that was on their ground

[desert agate]

Ethiopia had a navy post war, South Africa's navy existed solely for trade protection around its own waters, otherwise you've got a handful of green water forces that are mostly leftovers from the British and Germans in WW1 such as the survivors of the Tanganyika campaign

Afaik one of the vessels from that particular campaign is still on the lake

[shrewd pecan]

I’d throw in Algeria and Morocco as well

[charred coral]

So to sum up: South Africa, Egypt, Ethiopia, Algeria and Morocco each had a number of small ships

[shrewd pecan]

South Africa throughout its history has had a pretty decent navy, so has Egypt

Algeria and Morocco recently have been building all their navies

In terms of Ethiopia they had a handful of smaller vessels before the loss of Eritrea

[charred coral]

Okay then

[dapper parcel]

Nigerian navy is actually quite decent

[thorny patio]

Hey so... The iowas' were decommissioned... In the late 90's right?

But after running across the Wikipedia page on them, and then further looking up some old congressional documents...

Apparently both Iowa AND WISCONSIN are... Ahem let me get this word for word:

((note: THIS TOOK ME FOREVER TO FIND BECAUSE READING CONGRESSIONAL REPORTS IS PAIN))

In the conference report (H. Rept. 109-360) accompanying 

the National Defense Authorization Act for fiscal year 2006,
the committee included instructions regarding the transfer of
the battleships USS Wisconsin and USS Iowa to the Commonwealth
of Virginia and State of California, respectively, and the
President's reversion authority pursuant to a national
emergency. The committee seeks to clarify that the battleships
USS Wisconsin and USS Iowa must be regarded as potential
mobilization assets and both the recipients and the U.S. Navy
are instructed to treat them as such. The committee notes that
the following measures should be taken: (1) the ships must not
be altered in any way that would impair their military utility;
(2) the ships must be preserved in their present condition
through the continued use of cathodic protection and
dehumidification systems and any other preservation methods as
needed; (3) spare parts and unique equipment such as 16-inch
gun barrels and projectiles, be preserved in adequate numbers
to support the two ships, if reactivated; and (4) the Navy must
prepare plans for the rapid reactivation of the two battleships
should they be returned to the Navy in the event of a national
emergency.

Aaaaah why the fuck did it come out like that

I apologize for the randomness

I just found this really interesting

Interesting enough to sift through actual congressional files

[solid mango]

[eternal veldt]

hmmmmmmm

Thank you, demented modellers, for a Japanised Hornet

[hallow roost]

any irl details on the new fw190 variant in the game?

[chilly osprey]

This is a thing on paper, but not in practice.

All four ships are sort of too far gone in terms of wear and tear to come back into service, and much in the way of spare parts and almost all the ammunition has since been disposed of.

[chilly osprey]

https://twitter.com/WarThunder/status/1667116234943365123

War Thunder (@WarThunder)

The RN Geniere is back for Golden Eagles for the Italian Navy Day! This Soldati-type destroyer sank an Austro-Hungarian dreadnought on June 10, 1918 and since then, the date has been celebrated as Italian Navy Day.
https://t.co/G8oaljGAsQ

Likes

204

Twitter · Jun 9, 2023, 10:27 AM

https://tenor.com/view/face-palm-gif-20569409

[shrewd pecan]

Even if materially they weren’t too far gone they will likely require such extensive retrofits for accommodating modern crew standards alone to where you’re better off making a new ship

[chilly osprey]

Crew accomodations honestly probably aren't even likely the worst offender

Since 'modernized to 1980s' is frankly not far off what much of the current USN surface fleet is like in that regard

But there are huge issues as far as getting together people who actually know how to run steam plants

In the 1980s, a lot of the navy still ran on steam

Today... it's just the Wasp-class, I think? At least, not counting nuclear-powered ships.

That institutional knowledge is almost gone.

But above all

The Iowa-class is just not useful

[shrewd pecan]

Probably would take less time to throw LRLAP and additional zumwalt hulls into production if you really needed that gun fire support capability

[chilly osprey]

In the 1980s, the actual 'practical' reason for the navy to bring them back was that they could fit box launchers and canisters for 32x Tomhawk and 16x Harpoon

[shrewd pecan]

And didn’t have access to better guided 127 MM ammo

[chilly osprey]

Because before VLS was widespread in the fleet, the navy really lacked any ships that could throw a solid anti-surface bunch. The Iowa's were in the material condition to bring back and were large enough to carry all that.

But now everything has VLS, and all you need to match an Iowa's firepower is a single DDG

[chilly osprey]

If you're asking in the WWII context - then only Egypt and South Africa.

Algeria and Morocco both were French colonies and had no independent armed forces. Algeria's navy was only established after independence in 1962, and the same went for Morocco (in 1960).

Ethiopia lacked any maritime borders even before its conquest by fascist Italy, and only gained a navy after the war, as the UN decided to make Ethiopia and Eritrea one country in 1955.

Egypt existed as a British protectorate in this period and had a small naval force, but this was basically just a pair of sloops and some motor launches, which would not have been capable of fighting off much more than a Motor Torpedo Boat, if that.

South Africa was a dominion of Britain during WWII, and was thus did have an armed naval service, but these were effectively just militarized trawlers and whalers, and the largest ships they recieved during the war was a trio of Loch-class frigates.

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1667076625433862146

Navy Lookout (@NavyLookout)

New article:

Options for the Royal Navy’s Future Air Dominance System and the Type 83 destroyer

https://t.co/9MrBvbN8Er

Likes

561

Retweets

105

Twitter · Jun 9, 2023, 7:50 AM

[ivory ridge]

box

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werfer-Granate_21

[shrewd pecan]

ZUMWALT BUT BRITISH?!

[thorny patio]

Still the fact the government Mandates it is weird.

We have 2-4 battleships that regardless of applicability or practicality, the government has as what amounts to "the absolute very positively, extreme last ditch option"

[desert agate]

bristol 2 lesgo

[thorny patio]

It's the naval equivalent of bringing out the antique when you have no other option

The US: "Don't make me use my FINE china

[shrewd pecan]

its only there as a left over from the naval gun fire debate

these ships are never going to return to service again

even in the worse case scenario they're not worth the time and cost to return back to service

[thorny patio]

Wait, this report was from 2006

[shrewd pecan]

yes

the era of the naval gun fire debate

[tough quail]

they weren't worth it the first time

[thorny patio]

First time being their first recomm? Or are u trying to say they weren't worth building in the first place XD

[shrewd pecan]

I'd defend their reactivation during the 1980s

but for a 21st century navy they're almost entirely obsolete

[manic latch]

I see "guns are useless" thing same as phantom gun removal decision since radar and missile would be more than enough theory which was a mistake

[thorny patio]

Just pack a shit ton of surface-to-air on them

[tough quail]

former

[thorny patio]

XD

[shrewd pecan]

the guns would of broken any air defense missiles mounted on them

the Sea Sparrow couldn't handle the shocks of the guns firing

[thorny patio]

Oh wow

Thems some beefy 16inchers

[tough quail]

it was just Reagan having an aneurysm over Kirov existing

[shrewd pecan]

for the 800 ship navy

[tough quail]

so they pushed out a much shittier version

[manic latch]

Anything above 8 inch will hurt a radar easily

[shrewd pecan]

they worked as a way of boosting ship numbers and giving the navy a platform able to carry multiple anti ship and cruise missiles

[thorny patio]

QUESTION...

Could you theoretically use the museum ships as stationary defensive artillery?

[shrewd pecan]

the 16 inch guns also proved useful for America's adventures into Lebanon and Iraq

[tough quail]

they worked in the sense they technically boosted the ship count and technically had missiles

they just sucked

[shrewd pecan]

you have a platform with more tomahawks and harpoons than most ships in the fleet at the time

[tough quail]

the gulf war bait and switch was rad tho

[manic latch]

[shrewd pecan]

I wouldn't really consider them as a counter to the Kirov in the first place

[thorny patio]

I mean you have the massive artillery placements

[shrewd pecan]

that are gonna do nothing

[tough quail]

yeah at the cost of hobbling together a ship that barely works through great effort instead of just building an extra destroyer

[shrewd pecan]

in face of a Kirov

[manic latch]

Yes, Soviets used prototype gun of Soyuz in Leningrad, and Marat wasn't fully sunk so also used her remaining 3 turrets to fire

[tough quail]

that would still be in service now instead of immediately decommissioned

[shrewd pecan]

I mean

[thorny patio]

You wouldn't necessarily need a pilot crew, just a crew to man the guns, radars, etc

[shrewd pecan]

the ships being built at the time of the Iowa's recommissioning

are all classes that have been retired more than a decade ago

[thorny patio]

Also imma just say it, the zummwalt looks ugly

[manic latch]

It's not ww2 anymore tho, so whoever that stationary museums stays will be flatten by guided anti ship or normal bombs

[shrewd pecan]

tho I do love the idea of a 2000s Spruance retrofit

[thorny patio]

But big boom boom shells go BRRRRRRR

[manic latch]

It's faster and cheaper I think, since this Iowa refit was one of the cheapest ones

Instead going more dramatic options

[thorny patio]

Regardless, the US probs would rather sink a zummwalt than risk sinking an iowa

[manic latch]

No main gun removal, no large superstructure change, not even all 5 inches were gone

[manic latch]

No way

[shrewd pecan]

I'd rather lose a Iowa than a Zumwalt

[manic latch]

The fock

[thorny patio]

For cultural reasons

[shrewd pecan]

Cultural reasons don't justify me sacrficing my hypersonic missile platform for a ship from the 1940s

[manic latch]

If it was cultural then US would scrap no Battleships

[thorny patio]

I mean... Y'all just pointed out that it'd be easier to build and run a zumm than a Iowa... And all 4 Iowa's are museum ships so nobody really wanting to loose them.

That's like telling the Japanese it's worth sinking the Mikasa for... Whatever new ships they have

[shrewd pecan]

Mikasa is

a concrete berth

[thorny patio]

U don't need to tell me i know

[shrewd pecan]

Iowa's are decommissioned museum ships of extremely little military value

the zumwalts are highly expensive modern surface combats that will soon have some of the most capable and expensive missiles in the fleet

that we aren't actively producing anymore

[thorny patio]

We aren't producing Iowa's either. We preserve them for a reason

[shrewd pecan]

because they lasted far longer than the other battleships built in the late 30s and 40s

I'm gonna be frank I love the Iowa's but the only one extremely worthy of being a national landmark is Missouri

[thorny patio]

Yep

AND SHES NOT EVEN IN THE REPORT

which confuzles me

[shrewd pecan]

she was the first to be converted to a Museum ship

Iowa and Wisconsin were the last two in navy reserve

[thorny patio]

Random question... Is aurora a floater or is she cemented?

Can't remember

[shrewd pecan]

pretty sure she's still floating

[thorny patio]

That's impressive

The Russians being able to take care of something that old

[shrewd pecan]

she's a important part of both Russian and Soviet history so its not surprising

[thorny patio]

We have trouble maintaining texas

TEXAS

[manic latch]

I mean Kommuna is old as Texas and still in service

[shrewd pecan]

yeah because that's a state issue

[manic latch]

She is from 1915

[thorny patio]

Yo imagine if we kept the LANGLEY

the og one

[shrewd pecan]

👁️ I'm gonna be frank as important as it is keeping these pieces of history intact there's still other priorities in the budget

[thorny patio]

For the kiddos

[shrewd pecan]

the one that was sunk?

[manic latch]

What you will launch with it

[thorny patio]

Wait she was sunk? Fuck i didn't remember that

[shrewd pecan]

scuttled in 42

[thorny patio]

Americas first CV, sunk... What a shame

[shrewd pecan]

she was a sea plane tender by the time she sunk

[manic latch]

After taking off the surviving crew and passengers (Whipple rescued 308 men and Edsall 177) at 13:58, the escorting destroyers stood off and began firing nine 4-inch (100 mm) shells and two torpedoes into Langley's hull at 14:29[5] to prevent her from falling into enemy hands, scuttling her at approximately 8°51'04.2"S 109°02'02.6"E[

Ye she is gone

[thorny patio]

What ever happened to the Essex Langely?

Was she scrapped?

[manic latch]

You mean Independence Langley

[thorny patio]

Ah my bad

[manic latch]

Sold to France

France scrapped it later

[thorny patio]

HONHON

[manic latch]

Ngl France is lucky their carrier experience were hardcarried by Allied purchases

British/US

[chilly osprey]

Congress often mandates things into law for the armed forces, if certain congressmembers decide they have one issue they really want to stand their ground on.

[thorny patio]

Wasn't Frances only CV..... Bearn?

[chilly osprey]

Ex, technically there's a mandate out there that the USN has to have 12 CVNs

Which it doesn't have

[manic latch]

During ww2 yes, after their CVS are from allies

[chilly osprey]

Prior to WWII, yes

In the late war and after the war they recieved foreign light and escort carriers for a brief period, before then designing and building their own new pair of carriers in the 1950s - the Clemenceau-class

[thorny patio]

Oof, so i doubt AL will ever see those carriers XD

[shrewd pecan]

probably Clemenceau eventually

[thorny patio]

Oh?

That'd be lit

[shrewd pecan]

that or the planned prewar ones

[thorny patio]

Cus the French sorta have no airpower

[manic latch]

My favorite is Midway since she was supposed to get many 1946 projects US was cooking

[thorny patio]

Oooh the midway class?

[ivory ridge]

If china can get their ex soviet anshans then france should be able to get their Independences

[manic latch]

China will grow larger

[ivory ridge]

Actually saying what i want to say would get me warned

[thorny patio]

Also, what's the historical basis for Nelson's retro?

[ivory ridge]

But damn those damns are gorgeous

If you know what i mean

[manic latch]

She got few orelikons later

[ivory ridge]

[manic latch]

Not refit worthy yes

[thorny patio]

I just pop in one day and see she has a retro and I'm like.... I asked for this?

WHO WANTED THIS

[ivory ridge]

Man discovers retrofits arent historical after years of non historical retrofits

Somehow he's shocked

[manic latch]

I want Gangut refit since she had significant ones but will wait like Italy does

[thorny patio]

it's weird to see gangut in AL then get on world of warships to see she looks... Different... As in her rigging looks totally different

[manic latch]

There is 2 Gangut in wows

Tier 4 is her ww1 self

Tier 5 Prem is her ww2 self

[thorny patio]

Oooooh

Good to know, i like playing big rusky girls

[manic latch]

WG: Should we add one of her sister as Tier 4 instead?

Nooo

[thorny patio]

Naaaaah

God i remember when Mo' was in the game

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1667061852998627330

Navy Lookout (@NavyLookout)

🇳🇴Norwegian Defence Chief reccomends his government buys more submarines.

Norway could also be intereted in Type 26 or Type 31 frigates.

By @harry_lye @ShephardNews

https://t.co/j6TIn2gztX

Likes

376

Twitter · Jun 9, 2023, 6:51 AM

[shrewd pecan]

Type 26s/31s wouldn't be a bad purchase for the Norwegians

that or actual F100s

[chilly osprey]

Type 26 probably goes well beyond their budget, if they want to buy a reasonable amount.

AH140 in a configuration similar to the original Iver Huitfeldt design could be pretty darn useful, however.

Even if it is a pretty old design at this point.

There's also the question of where you even have these ships built.

[shrewd pecan]

Fridtjof Nansen's I always felt were under armed for their size/cost

[chilly osprey]

Fridtjof Nansen-class, for example, were built by Navantia in Spain

[shrewd pecan]

(oops wrong class)

[chilly osprey]

And there's nothing wrong with having ships built abroad if you can't build them at home

But if you want Type 26, then that's basically not happening.

There is no slack in the BAE production line at Glasgow and they're probably going straight to Type 83 after the 26 build

Which makes Babcock (and thus AH140/Type 31) your only real option if you want to buy British

[manic latch]

Kutuzov

[runic prairie]

None because it is a fictional creation.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/06/09/boeing-f-15ex-deliveries-slip-at-least-six-months-after-quality-errors/

[hallow roost]

seems like the premium ship could be implemented in AL as retrofit?

[rapid junco]

Seeing a random shorts about something the french resistance made during WWII

Someone:
"This 100% fake as the french actually collaborated with the Germans. It was the soviets who were fighthing the Nutzis"

[lunar sand]

during World War 2 was Richelieu operated by French or British sailors while under "British" control

[chilly osprey]

French sailors. She was never under British control.

[thorny patio]

How significant were the Omaha class American cruisers?

[eternal veldt]

Had to do some rather..."gamer" things when she reached Durban, though (technically not Britain, I suppose?)

Right, it was SA.

[chilly osprey]

Indeed. Which her crew was none to pleased about.

[runic prairie]

They were cruisers.

[thorny patio]

Lol, nothin special?

[runic prairie]

I mean the design work on them helped inform later American cruisers but no, they weren’t really anything special.

The U.S. was pretty averse to light cruisers and it would be almost 20 years before they built the Brooklyns.

[thorny patio]

Yeesh

Compared to their contemporaries then?

[maiden citrus]

above average compared to most, but not blatantly superior

[chilly osprey]

One has to note they were also the USN's only real scout cruisers until 1930

At least, other than the...

checks notes

...Chester-class

Ah, wait, they were all decommissioned by 1923

Forget about them, then

[maiden citrus]

yeh

[chilly osprey]

Just the Omaha's from 1923 to 1930

[thorny patio]

That's alot of baggage if u ask me

[runic prairie]

Four-stackers/flush deck destroyers were pretty good for their time.

[maiden citrus]

competant dd horde arise

[chilly osprey]

I mean, in the sense that the Omaha-class were 6" belted scout cruisers, they were decent. The British also had a crap ton of them, but no one else was really swimming in such ships either - though the Japanese, it does have to be said, did get 20cm scout cruisers into service earlier. Furutaka-class come online in 1926, Aoba's in 1927, and the Myoko-class from 1928-1929.

So that's eight 8" light cruisers in service before 1930.

[runic prairie]

The world fears the American DD swarm.

[thorny patio]

Friend started playing wows, got his hands on a few french DDs before switching to a cruiser and he might be wrong but to him he legit told me the French cruiser he upgraded to was better than the DD at the same tier...

Not really history but i found it funny how he called certain cruisers just slightly larger dds

[runic prairie]

The French had large Destroyers.

[thorny patio]

Lol

[lunar sand]

I did the "british control" thing because they were serving alongside the british navy predominantly

since well... Free France didn't exactly have plenty of ships to play around with

given Vichya took half of their navy

also why did the US specficially handle the upgrade of Richelieu after she was free'd

not really a qualification thing, mostly just curious why they didn't just tug her to the UK

[dapper parcel]

None of those were actually employed in the role Omaha was in tho

[grave ravine]

AFAIK the FW-190A6/R6 did exist, it's just it was neither a carrier aircraft nor were the rockets for anti-shipping purposes

[dapper parcel]

Let's say Omaha's role was a dead end at the time

[dapper parcel]

Nor that it carries two rocket, but eh balances

[grave ravine]

Yeah they were, cruisers (and their floatplanes) were the primary scouting force for Kido Butai and would have been for the main fleet in their decisive battle plans

[grave ravine]

The R6 is the specific modification to allow it to carry the two BR21 rockets

[dapper parcel]

They were scouting force of a formation, not standalone like Omaha supposed to do

[grave ravine]

Not a ton of them were made, cuz they weren't very good

[grave ravine]

AFAIK the Omahas were also supposed to be screen vessels

[dapper parcel]

Omaha was supposed to operate much more far away and independently from the fleet it supposed to scout for
At least much more than the Furutaka (and absolutely more than Myoko)

Well, In true IJN way of thinking, Furutaka was to fulfill way too many fole tbf

[chilly osprey]

She operated predominantly alongside the British, but, by the time she had returned to operations the MN and FNFL had already been unified again, and the Axis surface threat around Europe - where the French navy was predominantly operating - was basically gone. Since Richelieu would not be useful here, they instead committed her to operations in the Indian Ocean.

As for why she was refit in the United States - because the Americans had the yard space and resources to spare. No one else did.

[thorny patio]

Switching subjects yet again... Wows dreadnought is amazing at close range

[lunar sand]

I thought the british wanted her because of the battleship disparity in the region compared to the Italian navy at the time

[chilly osprey]

That was the original idea. But she only finished her refit in October 1943, so by the time she actually arrived in Europe the Italian Armistice had already happened, and the RM was no longer a threat - in fact it was now a co-belligerent navy.

As such she was sent up to work with the British Home Fleet, to counter German capital ships, but shortages of 380mm shells and charges meant she was not fully operational and thus was not involved in the destruction of Scharnhorst. By the time she was ready, Tirpitz was already crippled, and there was really no reason to keep her in Europe anymore.

[ivory ridge]

something something PT boat radar

[eternal veldt]

yard space is bad to the point that multiple British ships went over to the coast for refits and repairs

on top of my head, illustrious, resolution, ramilles, warspite, delhi, at the very least

[shy zealot]

[somber knoll]

by the time they were retired for this role, do you think the USN tried to bring it back later on with a different format (as in using different ship)?

[dapper parcel]

Lexington was supposed to be Omaha's successor

yes, a battlecruiser

[somber knoll]

though I figure at that point (1930's) it's just better for carriers to use recon planes. For carriers at least.

Interesting. I was expecting the two girls would be a sort of a counter to the Kongous if thr USN stuck with the BC concept rather than the Iowas.

[eternal veldt]

One of the fleet problems under heavy weather did show seaplanes from surface combatants were able to operate better than carrier based recon aircraft from Ranger, if I recall

So not entirely obsolete back then

Lexington does concern me though, with that 178mm belt of hers

[somber knoll]

weight issue I presume? though it also has certain other advantages like being able to land on water (which was often the case for seaplanes)

[eternal veldt]

Pontoons, and directly launched from a catapult

Ranger doesn't have a catapult back then if I recall

[manic latch]

God I hate that name

"Pontoon"

[eternal veldt]

Do you prefer "floats" instead

[manic latch]

Float platform

Gigachad

[somber knoll]

I'm not sure the Bongo-Bongo's regular AP 14 inchers can just munch through Lex's and Sara's belt, but that could depend on different factors really.

[maiden citrus]

'ap'

[somber knoll]

[eternal veldt]

Im more concerned with overall protection of the class

TDS as pointed out overall is just no

Can't bulge it too much either, otherwise speed dies

[dapper parcel]

Yeah, the original design requirements for Lex was pretty much the same with Omaha, speed and range at all costs

Which means thin slender hull and massive engines that didn't leave any more spaces for protections and stuffs

[eternal veldt]

That 1260ft proposal still scares me

[manic latch]

Don't like Omahas, sorry Murm
But design wasn't future upgrade worthy

[somber knoll]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/528197562998718474/965653162604257391/murmheli.gif

everything's changed after the Brooklyns struck

[manic latch]

Even it's carrier proposal looks disgusting

[somber knoll]

kinda ew. especially after Ranger came along

[charred coral]

USS Constellation, the last sail-powered frigate built

[eternal veldt]

Not a frigate, sloop-of-war

[maiden citrus]

omahas are underrated

and I feel they were, lots of interesting centerline positions and nice midship side areas

[eternal veldt]

Gib

Just aesthetics alone

[hallow roost]

Speaking of omahas, there's also a design of it as a monitor with 14in guns

[alpine onyx]

AA refit proposal of the Omahas

Crap ton of 5in

[charred coral]

My bad

[grave ravine]

Well, the IJN certainly didnt think so, their doctrine generally preferred using attached cruiser's floatplanes for scouting

Contrast with how the USN went to war with a full quarter of the air group set aside for scouting

Though of course the VS squadrons were still perfectly adequate as dive bomber strike squadrons if you didn't need them for scouting

[eternal veldt]

Japan was developing a carrier based recon aircraft as of Midway, IIRC

The C6N Saiun

4 prototypes were at Midway but were destroyed

[dapper parcel]

Saiun hadn't even left the drawing board in 1942...

They do have couple of Suisei onboard Soryu, but they employ them as recon instead of scout

[eternal veldt]

Oh yea. It's the Type 2. Not Saiun.

Knew something was off.

[grave ravine]

Its interesting because at Coral Sea you see a fairly significant deviation from standard early war Japanese scouting doctrine, with a dozen B5Ns being launched to scout in addition to the cruiser floatplanes, and it appears the request for Saiun was informed by their experience with this.

[dapper parcel]

There's simply not enough time to adapt an entire carrier fleet operational doctrine before Midway

Anyway it still took Midway to drive home how disastrous a bad scouting is to them

[grave ravine]

Oh yeah, its just fascinating how at Coral Sea they fairly significantly deviated from the doctrine

[dapper parcel]

It was the cranes in Coral Sea. Their loadout/doctrine were much more contemporary than the monolithic CarDiv 1/2

For starter they each have two whole division more aircrafts. They can afford to split the strike

[thorn trail]

Did the British have an equivalent to the Alaska/B-65 class in design?

[grave ravine]

yeah, though you don't see them doing similar things at Eastern Solomons or Santa Cruz Islands, despite having even more aircraft available to them then

I think it possibly has more to do with the fact that Nagumo was not in charge at Coral Sea, and I guess Takagi felt more free to try things

Not much information at all about Takagi on the internet

[dapper parcel]

I don't think Shokaku/Zuikaku's air complements were even fully formed back in Eastern Solomons
Tho I need to read some more, my knowledge is practically blank past Midway

Although the nature of the battle may affect how the flights were organized
Coral Sea being deemed as "smaller" operation, the carriers being secondary, and not expected to face an entire fleet much less against enemy aircraft carriers

[runic prairie]

Are there any images of those plans?

I read about them in Friedman’s book but I haven’t seen any.

Oh never-mind just found it.

Note the funnels were trunked together to increase deck space.

[alpine onyx]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/621103843106881556/748559223738335252/image0.gif

[runic prairie]

Anyone else hyped for the Mk-35 torp?

On the testing of the MK-35:

“The official score of hits on the target submarine could have been a little higher. On one run, the attacking destroyer USS Sarsfield (DD-837) dashed into the search area and almost immediately made a contact, classified it as a submarine, and fired a MK-35 in less that 15 minutes. The torpedo ran out to the targeted area, began a search turn, and almost immediately began an attack, as measured by the target submarine Manta's passive sonar. The torpedo then quickly closed on the target and made a solid hit, which was heard on the sonars of both the Sarsfield and Manta. The problem was, it didn't hit the Manta. But it had soundly hit . . . something. The Review Board decided to declare the run invalid. But it was widely reported that there were “snooper submarines” operating in the exercise areas. The unofficial discussion was whether one of them had blundered into the wrong position to spy on the exercise and been found and hit.”

[eternal veldt]

The British had a couple on the drawing board.

https://www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/The-British-Large-Cruiser-869407778

There is also the Hellenic cruiser export, with 3 x twin 254.

How I miss the raked funnels of the interwar designs 😦

[dapper parcel]

I'd put [citation needed] for this
Surely they'd find at least debris field if it indeed hit a submarine, and I'd be concerned if someone probably sink an unknown submarine and only went "oh well..."

[desert agate]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/UXNN3Mkv71I

[runic prairie]

Have you heard of a torpedo without a warhead?

I know it may be shocking but when testing, especially when you’re testing by shooting at your own subs, you don’t really want to sink them.

I mean maybe you do, but that’s generally frowned upon.

[subtle prawn]

It was just added in the gear lab

[dapper parcel]

I thought it was a live test due to how the hit was described

Obv they wouldn't test against sub wit manned sonar

[thorn trail]

anywhere I can read about said designs?

[eternal veldt]

Try Friedman's British cruisers book.

Tzoli already laid out the details in the description of the scheme I posted.

[runic prairie]

I mean maybe if the Sub crew stole their coffee they might “mix up” which torp they should be using.

Mistakes happen with the caffeine deprived.

[eternal veldt]

Remember, constipation is concerning enough to be included in Archerfish's logs

So do give them coffee

[thorn trail]

was there any reasoning for the 12in guns?

[eternal veldt]

If I recall, the rumoured large Japanese cruisers and the Deutschlands were the basis for the larger cruiser proposals

[thorn trail]

Main purpose was the same as the Alaska's and B-65 right?

Cruiser killing

[eternal veldt]

Yes. I don't think there is any other reason to otherwise employ such big guns on this type of ship.

[alpine onyx]

Germany building 10,000+600 ton cruisers with 11in guns

Suddenly panic

[dapper parcel]

Well, big gun is much more visible than questionable everything else

[eternal veldt]

France: Fuck you in particular

[alpine onyx]

Wouldn't call the rest of the Deutschlands questionable

Speed maybe, but otherwise nothing grave

[eternal veldt]

I think he meant the big guns are visible to everyone more than questionably anything else

Hence why everyone panicks to get cruiser killers out

[alpine onyx]

oh, e and y swapped could be

[eternal veldt]

Not helped by Britain

"Pocket BBs"

[alpine onyx]

The panic was deserved tho

"Haha, build useless 10,000 ton battleships"
"Wait, not like that!"

[eternal veldt]

As it should be, looking at Exeter at River Plate

I do wonder how bad it'll go for Spee if Cumberland was less cumbersome and joined up with Harwood at the onset

[supple sandal]

What tank I looking at

[alpine onyx]

A Panzer 3, somewhat late model

[supple sandal]

https://youtu.be/SFzJnEx7cAw

[supple sandal]

https://youtu.be/AagkGKgbRCY

[dapper parcel]

[spring briar]

You saw nothing

[supple sandal]

Nice

[subtle prawn]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-may-need-more-p-8s-to-expand-security-ambitions/

[manic latch]

F

[desert agate]

Illustrates the capability boost the extra aircraft bring

Guessing 2000 is range so I guess its to set expectations without a2a refuelling

[humble mulch]

Looks like a Panzer III M

Pretty sure that’s the 5cm gun it’s got

M/Ns don’t have the hatches near the rollers

[chilly osprey]

Yes, but it does let you establish on the chart where everything zeros out. Which is an important piece of information.

[lunar sand]

During the 2nd World War, was the goal explicitly to capture the Vichy France Navy, or were they ok with destroying the ships but conveniently were able to reclaim some of them.

[desert agate]

You mean at Toulon?

[lunar sand]

Mhm

[desert agate]

The objective was to capture the French fleet

The Germans wanted it to threaten the Italian campaign

[lunar sand]

Why did they need more ships though

Outside of large ships like Jean Bart, I see no practical need for the Germans to want to capture more small ships

How large was the French navy before the surrender of France essentially split it in half

Yeah but I thought the Mediterranean was Italys stomping ground

I'd expect the Kreigsmarine to want to have focused more near the English channel.

Given Germany geographically speaking isn't the best located place from a naval focus...

Out of curiosity since I can't seem to find specifics

What 2 battleships did Britain have in the Mediterranean?

Since they wanted Richie to make their advanced battleship presence 3 to match the Italians 3 (I assume the Italians had the 3 Veneto sisters)

Germany isn't in a good place to get ships anywhere without Britain intervention

They're parked right outside to wear your open ocean exit is

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/ronkainen7k15/status/1667430197531144194

Ronkainen (@ronkainen7k15)

Thales' Crotale NG self-propelled SAM system based on the XM723 MICV chassis.
(The described vehicle in my original tweet was the M2, but I noticed it was a XM723 prototype instead of the M2 Bradley)

Likes

144

Twitter · Jun 10, 2023, 7:15 AM

[lunar sand]

So after looking through... how the FUCK did Italy managed to produce such a large Navy...

So Dork and Renown were in the med... where the hell were the other KGVs and QEs

KGV was in... the Indian Ocean right?

[tough quail]

the fourth most powerful navy in the world

[lunar sand]

Warspite is probably the easiest one to guess where she was at since she pretty much just spent most of her time bullying the Kriegsmarine

[tough quail]

also the smaller ships are far more useful than jb overall because germany's escort/screening fleet was

comedically small and terrible

[lunar sand]

I'm betting on King George being in the Indian Ocean and Warspite dealing with the Germans.

Anyone else I couldn't tell you

Huh

And this was long after the Japanese got to Prince of Wales

[eternal veldt]

What year are we looking at?

Because both KGV and Howe were deployed in Operation Husky as Force Z in the Mediterranean as of 1943

[lunar sand]

I think Britain started focusing operations in the Med in... 41?

Wait let me check my notes

[grave ravine]

Yeah, late 1942

[lunar sand]

No not 41 I'm way too fucken early

[eternal veldt]

27 Nov, 1942

Richelieu and other French ships located in Northern Africa joined the Allied Cause after shithead Darlan ordered so

[lunar sand]

Had to be 42-43

Since Britain wanted Richelieu for their med operations, and she wasn't repaired by then.

[eternal veldt]

And Richelieu is in a serious state of disrepair until her refurbishment in early 1943

As in 3 guns in turret 2 completely unusable level bad

[lunar sand]

Took America a minute to fix Richie... idk if that's due to lack of priority or because she was utterly fucked

(Granted they probably needed to design a lot of what she needed from scratch)

[eternal veldt]

Richelieu was only ready for service on 14th Oct 1943

By that time, the Italian fleet is in Allied custody

[lunar sand]

Was this before or after the Germans bombed Roma

[eternal veldt]

Under the water for an entire month by that time

And no, because it takes time to work a ship up, especially with a crew that is basically dormant for 2 years at Dakar

And with a ship that has extensive modifications

[grave ravine]

USN kinda was too though

Torch happens right around the naval battles of guadalcanal

[eternal veldt]

The USN dockyards are also filled to the brim at that point, just in a better position than the UK

It is also why the Le Fantasques were classified as CLs at that point - they receive higher priority than DDs in dockyard work

[grave ravine]

Like a year before

[eternal veldt]

What

[lunar sand]

Huh all 3 Venetos survived until italian surrender...

Although their fates were rather sad after the fact.

[eternal veldt]

Roma was bombed on 9th Sep 1943

[grave ravine]

Yeah and Torch was in November 42

[eternal veldt]

No, Roma was lost en route to Malta

Italia (ex-Littorio) lightly damaged

[grave ravine]

Yeah after Italy surrendered

[lunar sand]

Germany destroyed Roma, damaged Littorio, Veneto was given to the UK.

The latter 2 being scrapped by the USN and RN respectively

[grave ravine]

Also I don't think Italy actually lost any battleships sunk in combat during WW2

[lunar sand]

Gullio Cesare count?

[grave ravine]

They had some disabled at Taranto, but those got repaired

[lunar sand]

What the hell were the Japanese doing that far in?, I'm not too familiar with their presence outside the pacific

[eternal veldt]

Roma counts, as AA fire was directed at the German bonbers

[lunar sand]

Oh

I thought you mean PoW

[grave ravine]

Do you mean Cavour, she sank in shallow waters at Taranto but was eventually repaired to some extent

[eternal veldt]

And no, both Littorio and Veneto were scrapped at La Spezia

Italy had strong desires to keep the two ships, but Soviets also wanted one

[grave ravine]

Oh yeah, I meant other than Roma

[eternal veldt]

The solution is to get rid of both so it cannot be used ss a bargaining chip

[lunar sand]

Couldn't they have just told the Russians to kick dirt?

[grave ravine]

Warspite and Valiant were covering the invasion of Madagascar right?

Wait no that was over by then

[eternal veldt]

Cavour was never instated back into service, so it might as well be counted as a loss

[lunar sand]

What did the USN commit to the Atlantic front?

Given they had to focus a majority of their navy on the Pacific campaign.

[eternal veldt]

Lots of ships, actually

At Casablanca alone, Massachusetts and Ranger are the famous duo that disabled Jean Bart

Brooklyn, Tuscaloosa, Wichita focused on the smaller ships

Augusta "accidentally" blew out Patton's boat and scattered all his belongings to the sea

Get fucked

[thorn trail]

Hold on when did Warspite leave the Med?

[lunar sand]

Probably not long after smacking Cesare in the teeth

[thorn trail]

I remembered Warspite and Barham was in Med around the Battle of Cape Matapan right?

[grave ravine]

Earlier actually

[eternal veldt]

Spoot was in US refit when Pearl Harbor happened

[grave ravine]

After getting damaged at crete

Got sent to the US for repairs

Arrived at Bremerton August 41 per wiki

[lunar sand]

We're the Japanese and U.S. the only countries that built ships that violated the treaty

[eternal veldt]

Then deployed to the Indian Ocean

[thorn trail]

No

[somber knoll]

No

[eternal veldt]

Then reported twice as sunk by the credible Japanese

[thorn trail]

Lmao

[grave ravine]

Yeah In time for Madagascar

[thorn trail]

Pretty sure like every nation save for the UK tried to follow the naval treaties

[somber knoll]

[eternal veldt]

...kinda.

[thorn trail]

and even then the UK was doing some loopholes for the Nelson class

[eternal veldt]

NC was barely within limits

[grave ravine]

Lol no, Japan and Italy consistently built ships like 20% over the treaty

[somber knoll]

if that is so then they would just go with Monarch over the KGVs

[lunar sand]

Then along came the iowas

[thorn trail]

wait shit

[eternal veldt]

Littorio ballooned up to 4k tons up to 40k tons

[thorn trail]

I mean the opposite

[eternal veldt]

Richelieu is fat on arrival and was at 37k tons

Ate burgers and grew to fucking 43k tons

[grave ravine]

The US and UK were the ones that most closely followed it, though France generally did as well

Richelieu was way overweight tho

[thorn trail]

Yeah no my brain farted I meant only the UK tried to closely follow the treaty

[lunar sand]

Didn't the US break it after Japan started playing dirty

[eternal veldt]

Its not a break

Its an escalator clause

[thorn trail]

The US technically "broke" it by invoking the escalation clause

[grave ravine]

I mean the treaties lapsed with war in Europe

No Escalation was in the treaty

The US invoked the clause

[somber knoll]

If I remember correctly there were supposedly triple 15 incher designs?

other than the Monarch design of course.

[grave ravine]

Because Japan did not sign onto 2nd London

[eternal veldt]

KGV fucked around with 14, 15 and 16" designs

[somber knoll]

that uses the BL1s

[grave ravine]

We invoked it basically the day we were allowed to, which made Britain a little upset, but didn't break the treaty

[eternal veldt]

DNC dropped all of them to follow LNT

[thorn trail]

Wait wha'ts DNC again

[eternal veldt]

Director of Naval Construction

[lunar sand]

I still fail to understand the European infatuation with 4 barrel turret designs

Especially on KGV. Why not just have 2 triple mounts in front

[grave ravine]

Stability

And topweight

[eternal veldt]

Yea, no.

[grave ravine]

If you put your guns lower, you get more of them

[thorn trail]

Not stability

it's for weight saving

[eternal veldt]

The benefits of quadruples is that you can stuff many guns in a turet, reducing the length of a ship required.

[somber knoll]

though with that, unless you know what you're doing, the accuracy becomes... less desirable, I'm afraid.

[eternal veldt]

The problem is

1. the mount is immensely heavy, and required massive beam.

2. a single shell can knock out quite a fraction of your firepower.

There is also a final factor in RN in choosing either twins or quads: ladder firing.

[lunar sand]

Relatively

[eternal veldt]

RN practice of rangefinding a target is to fire half-salvos.

Each turret fires one gun off, check fire, then adjust the other gun to bracket the target.

This makes twin configurations perfect.

And especially there is also the delusion that, I quote

[somber knoll]

meanwhile, the Frenchies

iirc Richie was tested with a delay firing device no?

[eternal veldt]

"The long and extensive service of the Royal Navy men will ensure that we can fire the guns faster than the other nations"

[lunar sand]

Didn't that mindset bite them in the ass with Hood?

[eternal veldt]

Sure buddy, get your guns unfucked with your massive amount of flash fire protection first

[manic latch]

US was also going to put quad 356mm mounts on NC if they stayed loyal to treaty

[thorn trail]

"fast fire"
proceeds to open blast doors with cordite everywhere in Jutland

[eternal veldt]

No

Hood is a simple matter of being old

[lunar sand]

Warspite is also old

And the old lady refused to die

[thorn trail]

That mindset didn't bite them with Hood

It did bite them hard in Jutland tho

[eternal veldt]

Well...she could have

[somber knoll]

Hood was on her way for a very much needed refit

[eternal veldt]

The RN was about to rig her up with explosives to test how shell and powder rooms should be arranged in their upcoming BBs after the shit she ate in 1943.

[lunar sand]

How would they have refit hood, she already sat ridiculously low

[eternal veldt]

Just stopped in time after they changed their mind.

[manic latch]

Only her ass was

[eternal veldt]

Hood is not getting anything other than fixing her stripped turbine

Maybe A few more AA gun emplacements and getting rid of the clown circus that is the UP launchers

[thorn trail]

Would it have been possible for any of the WW1 British ships to get reconstructed like WV did after Pearl Harbor?

[eternal veldt]

They already did

Its called Warspite

[somber knoll]

http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/official/adm229/adm229-20.htm

idk

[lunar sand]

Could hood have been saved or was her design just doomed to fail.

I fail to see how they could've done more given the size and weight limitations on a ship that already took on water just for existing.

[eternal veldt]

There's a reason why Barham, Malaya, and the entire R class gets fucked

Mostly because all British yards are instantly cranked up to max with repairs and production of smaller craft as doon ss war breaks out

Anything that is not that can get fucked

Including the much needed horizontal armour upgrades for the R-class

And guess what, the most advanced R-class is torpedoed and sunk in less than a year into the war

[lunar sand]

Listen some old ships still punched above their weight in the war. So age alone can't be the condemning factor for a ship

[thorn trail]

R-class was already old

[junior trench]

NCs switched to 16" because the treaty fell apart, not because the USN left the treaty

and the upgrade to 16" was treaty compliant anyway

[thorn trail]

Also didn't the R-class not get refit as much as the QE's due to them being way slower?

[eternal veldt]

Lol no

They hit 23 knots

They were originally designed to be mixed coal-oil fired

The first thing Fisher did when he got back to first sea lord is making sure they are fully oil fired

The R-class should be considered more compact QEs

Which is why they are also behind the QEs on the reconstruction list

[lunar sand]

Aren't the QEs kinda short to begin with

[eternal veldt]

So make it even shorter

Since the emphasis isn't on speed, make it less of a target and make it better

[thorn trail]

what's the most compact a BB can be

[eternal veldt]

Except that didn't work out. Ramillies was the subject of an experimental torpedo bulge, and it made her costs skyrocket.

[eternal veldt]

The US standards are the chonkiest, more compact designs Ive seen

[thorn trail]

pound for pound?

like weight/size they're very compact?

[eternal veldt]

No doubt thanks to Congress telling Buships to sod themselves every year

[somber knoll]

personally, I would say the Chocos for length and wieight wise

aka the South Dakotas

[eternal veldt]

SoDak comes with the cost of habitability though

[somber knoll]

pretty much

the risk of being too chubby

[eternal veldt]

Godawfully cramped, made worse by increasing no. of AA guns

[junior trench]

sort of?

[eternal veldt]

No portholes either, but blessed be artificial ventilation

[junior trench]

bad by standards of period USN is... not actually that bad by other navy's standard

[eternal veldt]

Definitely way ahead of uh...

Right, Ise.

[junior trench]

but if you want most compact then it's probably the Espana's

[eternal veldt]

Tfw your ship gets hot to the point you want to sleep on the westher deck

[junior trench]

which are a bit smaller than SoCar

[manic latch]

Alabama's interior

[junior trench]

same length, slightly beamier, shaller draft, lower displacement, also with 8" guns

[somber knoll]

iirc they didn't really fix it eith Hyuuga no?

[eternal veldt]

Both are cramped

Fuso was already bad

[lunar sand]

Was there a big difference in Naval Combat between the Pacific and Atlantic? It might just be a result of the volume of them, but it seems Battleships were more "influential" and focused on in the Atlantic.

[manic latch]

Most comfy one was Yamato for obvious reason and she actually had AC

[eternal veldt]

Ise's arrangement just fucks it up harder

[thorn trail]

Atlantic has rougher seas

And also because only the allies had carriers in the atlantic

[eternal veldt]

I have to double check Yamato

[manic latch]

Bruh that took you long

[somber knoll]

and Goering being an ass

[eternal veldt]

Think only restricted only to officers

[thorn trail]

even then iirc the Atlantic weather is harsh where carriers are less effective than they are in the Pacific

[lunar sand]

It still feels like both sides in the Atlantic prioritized Battleships

Be it due to them being threats, or merely targeting symbols of strength for their respective faction.

Meanwhile Japan and America were both hunting their carriers

[eternal veldt]

Should be kept in mind that when the Pacific tears up a storm, it isn't that "pacific" either

[manic latch]

But Italy or Germany had no carriers unlike Pasific

[eternal veldt]

cough Cobra

Or the Tomozuru incident

[somber knoll]

problem is, the only "at least plausible" carriers that Germany and Italy might have, had already crippled in drydock (not sure about Aquilla, but GZ definitely was)

[thorn trail]

European navies had leftover BBs

and like only the British had carrier capabilities

[desert agate]

The Atlantic was completely different because the overall strategic aims and how each side intended to achieve those aims was entirely unique to that theatre, just like in the Pacific

[manic latch]

Illustrious class mostly ye

[desert agate]

There is very little similarity between either front

[eternal veldt]

Geography also somewhat discourages carriers, at least for Italy

[desert agate]

The Mediterranean has more in common with the Pacific, but again, still a very different campaign being fought there

[eternal veldt]

Just stay in the Mediterranean pond

[lunar sand]

Atlantic layout is also a complete nightmare.

Rather than a bunch of islands you have Europe and Africa forming a bunch of channels and small seas with tiny choke points

[manic latch]

Nah

[eternal veldt]

And if you're desperate

Tie a land fighter to the catapult

[manic latch]

You can't sink actual airfield

[desert agate]

The fact battleships were indeed used in all 3 main naval theatres of ww2 is completely irrelevant because those battleships were used in entirely different manners

[desert agate]

Continents can't dodge

[somber knoll]

fleet carrier got shot by 11 inchers anyone?

to be fair Glorious didn't put up a fight

[manic latch]

Fock

[desert agate]

It depends on your time period

[manic latch]

Unsinkable
Easy to repair
Can handle all planes and heavier planes
Easier to repair planes, mount them, etc

[desert agate]

In ww2, arguably yes land airfields were superior

[thorn trail]

Wasn't there something about the captain of Glorious being super fucking bullshit and leaving early to punish the leader of her airgroup?

[eternal veldt]

Not necessarily, depending on your runway's quality

[desert agate]

Today? I'll take a carrier any day

[manic latch]

That's why Mediterranean was very hard for British CVS, they were against Italy's land airfields

[eternal veldt]

I forgot which plane, the heavy landing gear tore up an entire runway

Think at Henderson field

[lunar sand]

Did any of the Essex or Iowas see the Atlantic or did the US keep them in the Pacific

[desert agate]

Unsinkable is great and all until you get bombed daily, your airfield is battered, you have no more hangars and you can't launch aircraft

[eternal veldt]

Iowa was carrying FDR to Malta

[somber knoll]

that was one of the reason she didn't do much, as far as I can recall

[desert agate]

During the war there were Iowas in the Atlantic, no Essex class carriers served on combat duties over there though

[manic latch]

Sinkable is great unless you sink with all your planes and crew

[lunar sand]

Think it was because they were needed in the Pacific or was the Atlantic theater just not carrier friendly

[desert agate]

Carriers will always win the ISR game

By virtue of the fact that they can move

[manic latch]

Much harder to repair too, you can turn them to drydock slaves with 2 bombs

[eternal veldt]

Yorktown:

[manic latch]

Ded

[lunar sand]

Taihou after 1 torpedo

[somber knoll]

There were rumors about how Iowa was planned to try to check on Tirpitz, but nothing happened

[desert agate]

In war your aim is to win the ISR game, if you lose that game you lose your assets

[lunar sand]

Overkill much

[thorn trail]

wonder would it have been possible for the allies to attack Tirpitz in dock with BBs

[eternal veldt]

The main thing about carriers is being able to strike and depart, preferably without being detected or retailiated upon

[thorn trail]

instead of the planes they kept sending

[manic latch]

Overkill is Montana vs Tirpitz

Iowa vs Tirpitz still has ways that can go differently

[eternal veldt]

And mobility for power projection

[desert agate]

Carriers can simply not be in the same place after being spotted and when the enemy strike arrives

[thorn trail]

Or was Tirpitz's anchorage too deep that you can't snipe her from afar?

[desert agate]

Be that planes in ww2 or cruise missiles today

[eternal veldt]

Finding a ship at sea is a bitch

[lunar sand]

Does it? Given Tirpitz was kinda forced to hide for most of its life

[manic latch]

If she isn't protected by mines then sure rush your BB in there

[eternal veldt]

And in WW2 conditions, somehow your pilot also can't recognize them properly

[lunar sand]

At what point did keeping Tirpitz afloat become more work than its worth for the Kriegsmarine

[thorn trail]

Me in every military game

[somber knoll]

Z36 moment

[desert agate]

Kido Butai is a prime example of this in WW2, Hornets airgroup mostly never found Kido Butai and those who did died pointlessly, and Enterprises airgroup very nearly had a similar fate

American carrier groups in Guadalcanal also played cat and mouse with Japanese spotter planes and strikes

[eternal veldt]

Eastern Solomons is also a good demonstration of an undetected carrier group being a dangerous threat

[lunar sand]

What was the worst carrier loss the allies suffered in WW2?

Yorktown I assume?

[eternal veldt]

And very nearly ended Enterprise's career right there

[desert agate]

Henderson field meanwhile ate shit regularly because it couldn't dodge

[manic latch]

Lexington or York

[desert agate]

What do you define as worst?

[eternal veldt]

Franklin, in terms of casualties

[thorn trail]

if worst as in the worst loss of life wouldn't Franklin or Glorious be worse?

[somber knoll]

there were signs of this after Rheinubung, but Tirpitz pretty much hit the nail of her proverbial coffin after Mustache Man ordered to stop focus on capital ships

[junior trench]

ah yes, the extremely rough North Sea and Atlantic where... checks notes the lightly built USS Ranger ran around memeing on shit without any issue

[lunar sand]

I'd say balance out

• Loss of life
  And - Could they afford to lose that (at the time)

[desert agate]

In terms of total capability decline, the loss of Hornet crippled the USN for months

[dapper parcel]

It's practically free for them compared to the effort needed for the raids

[thorn trail]

40 survivors

[eternal veldt]

Tbh, every carrier is nearly unaffordable to lose

Especially Japan

[thorn trail]

1200 dead from Glorious alone

[desert agate]

The USN was forced to effectively halt all offensive operations in the Pacific and had the Japanese made an offensive of their own, the USN would have been entirely unable to parry

[thorn trail]

not including Acasta and Ardent

[eternal veldt]

Broke: sink Hornet

Woke: take Hornet in tow and Japanize her

(and other delusions you can tell yourself)

[desert agate]

It wasn't until the first Essex class Carriers came online in December that the USN regained its capacity for offensive action

[lunar sand]

They lost what... 4 in one fight

[somber knoll]

in terms of size in the Atlantic, which carrier had the biggest loss?

[thorn trail]

wait was the sinking of Hornet before or after Victorious joined the US Navy temporarily

[eternal veldt]

After

[lunar sand]

How the hell did the battle of Midway even unfold how it did.

How were the Japanese carriers caught with their pants down...

[eternal veldt]

Sara Maru and Enterprise were the only two carriers left in the Pacific

[desert agate]

Victorious was a temporary replacement for Hornet

[deep apex]

Luck

Lots of it

[desert agate]

Saratoga was in refit

[eternal veldt]

One is in drydock, the other is damaged

[thorn trail]

Maru?

[somber knoll]

so Ark Royal was smaller then.

[eternal veldt]

A nickname given to her by her crew for how many times she gets crippled and stays out of the fight

Almost as if trying to help the Japanese

[thorn trail]

lmfao

[thorn trail]

Also partly arrogance on Japan's part

1 died

[lunar sand]

A frankly ridiculous amount of it...

[thorn trail]

only 1 died iirc

[deep apex]

Also as to how Italy managed to make such a large navy?

They're almost entirely surrounded by the Mediterranean as a nation. Having a good navy is required.

[desert agate]

Effectively the Japanese suffered a complete loss of ISR, suffered extreme organisational failures due to pre existing flaws and big ego's and their forces were caught mostly unawares

[eternal veldt]

For Midway

Please read Shattered Sword

[somber knoll]

I mean in terms of ship size. casualty pretty much Glorious took the cake

[eternal veldt]

Its more comprehensive than anything we could say

[lunar sand]

We're it not in the history books, the battle of Midway would seem so unbelievable in its result

[thorn trail]

yeah as a percentage of ship crew then Glorious took the most dead

iirc Courageous also has one of the higher killed/crew ratio when it sank

[desert agate]

Arks captain abandoned ship very early due to the extreme loss of life on Glorious as he wanted to ensure as many men survived as possible

[thorn trail]

wasn't he chastised for that a bit?

[dapper parcel]

Midway was basically a battle of who suck less at getting the first strike, both sides were terrible
Everything else after that is just snowball effect

[thorn trail]

Due to if he hadn't fully abandoned everyone then she could have been saved?

[eternal veldt]

Just chastised?

Get court martialled, my guy

[lunar sand]

Yeah how did the early stages of the Atlantic go so... poorly for the British

[somber knoll]

Also try off Samar

[thorn trail]

Oh right he was court martialled

[eternal veldt]

Manchester's captain was found guilty and never received a command ever again

Very RN moment

[thorn trail]

Which was harsher, UK or IJN treatment of their losing crews

[lunar sand]

Actually different question

[eternal veldt]

Nagumo retained command until Santa Cruz

[desert agate]

IJN officers tended to get off pretty light

[eternal veldt]

The RN just outright tried the captain if you lose the ship

[lunar sand]

How did the splitting of Frances navy impact the early stages of the Atlantic theater.

Given the RN essentially lost their biggest ally

[desert agate]

Mostly thanks to nepotism

[eternal veldt]

Dont be a lower rating seaman in the IJN though

Shit habitability, and quite literally "the beatings continue until morale improves"

[lunar sand]

I know the RN is big but... I don't think they were prepare to immediately handle the Italian RN, Kriegsmarine, and Vichy France Navy

[desert agate]

Realistically not all that much
The additional escorts would have been nice sure but the French capital ships wouldn't have done much of any use in the Atlantic anyway
The Mediterranean is the real area of issue for losing the French since it spread the British out

[manic latch]

Taihou-Kai

[eternal veldt]

Hence why Britain is so anxious over how the French fleet was handled post armistice

And why Operation Catapult and Menance was issued

Much to French anger

[lunar sand]

Britain really wanted the Americans to fix Richie fast...

[eternal veldt]

Britain is concerned with one thing

Either make sure the French fleet is fighting for the Allies

[desert agate]

The British could handle their own in terms of lighter ships but in terms of capital units the Med was critically short and the Italians managed to fend the British off for some time

[eternal veldt]

Or neutralized so they cannot pose a threat

[lunar sand]

We're the 3 venetos that scary for them

[somber knoll]

the Kriegsmarine's capital ships were considered kind of a meme by the Brits, Desuland's existence notwithstanding. It wasn't until Rheinubung that the RN decided to go overkill with the Germans.

[eternal veldt]

Hence the offers: Sail with us, scuttle your ships, or sail to Martinique

Or we blow you the fuck up

[desert agate]

2 Venetos 2 Andrea Dorias and 2 Cavours

[eternal veldt]

Wars are not just fought by battleships

[lunar sand]

I mentioned them because they specified capital ships

[eternal veldt]

The Italian navy also had submarines, a formidable cruiser force, and a remarkable destroyer force

[somber knoll]

and Roma wasn't even operational until the near end of the war.

[desert agate]

6 battleships against the British who needed to keep a force in the Atlantic to keep the Germans effectively blockaded

[eternal veldt]

All of which hamper allied operations

[desert agate]

The British were more or less outnumbered for most of the Mediterranean campaign

And when they weren't outnumbered the Italians still performed exceptionally well in the circumstances

[eternal veldt]

Its ironic though, the Littorios never came face to face directly with a RN BB/BC

(and we have to deal with Iachino and other English slander on them now)

[manic latch]

Especially with those high penetration high velocity guns

[desert agate]

There are regardless plenty of perfectly valid criticisms of the RN and overall British military policy during the war and especially in the Med

[lunar sand]

Didn't the British end up just brute forcing the Mediterranean with Force H?

[eternal veldt]

Closest was Spartivento IIRC

Renown and Littorio

[somber knoll]

Hence why, in-game, our Littorio is more obsessed with the Lusties than the KGVs

[lunar sand]

Formi was throwing hands in the Med

Err... throwing planes

[desert agate]

Cope ig

[lunar sand]

Only thing I criticize is the prioritization on rate of fire in the early stages. Given some captains risked the safety of their ship just to improve that ROF