history

[frigid karma]

The British mistaking a 4x3 gun cruiser for a bb

Brilliant

[spiral cedar]

While the battle was at close range, yeah. But they could also just have attacked in the morning before the battleships arrived

Not much Bismarck can do even if she can shoot at them

[spring briar]

De Bussy

[spiral cedar]

Sharing pictures of De Bussy online

[alpine onyx]

Identifying ships can be hard, so I don't blame them for friendly firing at Sheffield

When ONI warns of mixing up Wichita, Köln and Emden due to visual similarities

Mixing up a four turret CL and a four turret BB sounds very believable

[desert agate]

cruisers and battleships tend to be similar in length a lot of the time anyway

[spring briar]

Is this an exocet reference?

[runic prairie]

And to think there may be children here.

[dapper parcel]

The problem with estimating ship size at sea is that you don't have visual reference

[eternal veldt]

You are quite literally looking at a black splotch on a flat piece of ocean.

[alpine onyx]

And things like gun barrels are very difficult to see, much less count, at 10+km

[eternal veldt]

Its why ships like Chicago get mistaken as Warspite.

Or Sims and Neosho as a carrier and California class.

[alpine onyx]

Or Prinz Eugen as Bisma-

[spring briar]

Jaba I found some juicy info yesterday

[alpine onyx]

I mean Hood and PoW as Counties

Or Erie as a Porter

[delicate beacon]

So many battleships in the Java Sea

[frigid karma]

The Chopin ripoff? Please

[dapper parcel]

De Bussy got good fingering tho

[runic prairie]

Mk 11 GMLS with two Harpoons

Pretty sure this is USS Buchanan, DDG-14

[spring briar]

@alpine onyx Belgium and Prussia were the only two countries to adopt compressive style rifling in the 1860’s

[alpine onyx]

Pew

[spring briar]

Belgium later beat Prussia

[alpine onyx]

[spring briar]

https://tenor.com/view/smug-smug-cat-cat-face-cat-face-gif-26262519

[autumn sorrel]

Belgium isn’t a real country

[spring briar]

True

Still has a higher GDP per capita than yours tho

[autumn sorrel]

*sad Vietnamese face

[spring briar]

It’s ok

[autumn sorrel]

I have relatives all over Europe, except for Belgium

[manic latch]

Belgium tax hell

[spring briar]

Cool

[spring briar]

Yeah but you can literally live off social support

Which is kinda dumb

But still neat

[runic prairie]

If we pooled the world’s nuclear arsenals we might be able to remove Belgium off the map.

Then we will be free.

[spring briar]

But why destroy Belgium

We literally invent medicine for the rest of yall

[runic prairie]

Its existence mocks us.

[alpine onyx]

You invent waffles

[autumn sorrel]

Better yet, France annex Belgium again

[spring briar]

Flanders goes to the Netherlands

Wallonia goes to France

Nothing changes

That’s the nature of Belgium

[autumn sorrel]

No more Belgium

[manic latch]

I need Belgium alive

[delicate beacon]

Can we get all of Flanders? I want Rijssel

[spring briar]

Don’t cha love randos talking about your country as if they know anything about it

[frigid karma]

Overrated chocolate

[spring briar]

That’s going too far

[delicate beacon]

Lets kill Qwerty

[manic latch]

[runic prairie]

He has a point though

[spring briar]

He lives in the US
Don’t worry sang

[frigid karma]

Touch me and I’ll article v you

[autumn sorrel]

White or black choco? Can’t decide

[frigid karma]

I’m us citizen

[manic latch]

Calls 911

Oh no no

[frigid karma]

Belgian chocolate isn’t bad per se but of most European chocolates I’ve eaten it’s just average

But they jerk off about it so they must perish

[manic latch]

I assume you prefer Nutella

[frigid karma]

They’re also backed by the English so that’s another point against them

[autumn sorrel]

Eat the cocain lace one

[frigid karma]

Nutella isn’t even a chocolate

It’s shit

[autumn sorrel]

Nutella is nut, not cacao

[frigid karma]

It’s not nut, it’s just shit

My shit

[manic latch]

[frigid karma]

Splatoon 3 chose white

[autumn sorrel]

And German paste it on their toast every morning

[frigid karma]

I mean I like Italian chocolate

[spring briar]

But have you been to a chocolatier in Europe already?

[frigid karma]

But I also snorted three lines of Ferrero rocher a day when I was a kid so I’m probably biased

It’s gud shit

[spring briar]

Cause the export stuff is like most “x country” style food
A cheap knockoff

[runic prairie]

That’s because the German genome selected for individuals without tastebuds so as to not drive them to suicide.

[autumn sorrel]

I love and hate choco, love it when I can munch it, hate it when it melt and get all over my shirt

[frigid karma]

German food be like

Alcoholism and cholesterol

Bottom text

[spring briar]

Like you can get “american style” cookies in the belgian supermarkets but I know it isnt the same as real american cookies

Like

[autumn sorrel]

Funnily enough, their taste in food is very close to what I can enjoy, including the blood sausage

[frigid karma]

There is no American cookies

You might as well as say “European” cookies

[autumn sorrel]

There’s only cookies

[spring briar]

Using your brain to be critical instead of using it to make a youtube short
Imagine

[frigid karma]

Oh I like European cookies

????

[autumn sorrel]

And maybe Danish cookies

[frigid karma]

You mean sewing pins?

[autumn sorrel]

It not that hard

[frigid karma]

(Every family in the us has a danish cookie tray with sewing materials)

I don’t fucking know why

It’s just the law

[spring briar]

In Europe as well

[frigid karma]

And it’s always the danish cookie trays too

[spring briar]

I think just about everywhere actually

[frigid karma]

No clue why

[autumn sorrel]

Best thing about Germany is there so many Wurst to eat

[spring briar]

Curryworst best @delicate beacon

[frigid karma]

Well now I’m hungry and tired

Better go sleep

[autumn sorrel]

I just have rice and roasted chicken breast

[runic prairie]

Perfectly valid

What kind of seasoning

[manic latch]

Based

[frigid karma]

None needed

[spring briar]

Worst > wurst

[frigid karma]

It’s rice and chicken

[runic prairie]

Masochist

[autumn sorrel]

Sweet and sour, ma recipe

[runic prairie]

Based

[frigid karma]

Depends tho

Western or eastern

[autumn sorrel]

Eastern

[frigid karma]

Western? Some oregano or maybe some mustard

Eastern is just

[autumn sorrel]

Better

[frigid karma]

Indeed

[spring briar]

Eastern is western but with ancient eastern influence

[runic prairie]

I’m pretty partial to Chicken Tikka Masala myself.

I tend to add quite a bit of ginger.

[autumn sorrel]

Nah, I don’t use pre made seasoning, I mix them myself

[frigid karma]

Tikka Masala is Scottish

Fun fact

[spring briar]

Hate to break it to you
But most based and good ass eastern dishes are mostly due to western influence during the colonial era

[frigid karma]

You use peanut butter to make your sesame sauce for hot pots?

[frigid karma]

We have a dish called

All parts of a pig

[spring briar]

Hell
Japan had 0 experience with cooking meat of any kind until the 1870’s

[autumn sorrel]

No? I see a lot of spice but no peanut butter

[runic prairie]

The only good culinary thing other than Fish and Chips to come out of the British Isles.

[frigid karma]

Hmm

Fish and chips is a Jewish recipe

[runic prairie]

Sucks to be a Brit

[autumn sorrel]

We made “Doi” equivalent of blood sausage from pig intestines

[frigid karma]

The only thing the British invented culinary wise is fifteen different flavors of tea

[runic prairie]

Which came from China

[frigid karma]

Yep

[runic prairie]

The Chinese know how to make teas by God.

[frigid karma]

Also that may be the case for Japan but most Chinese recipes are still from well before the 1800s

[spring briar]

It’s also kind of weird how french cuisine is portrayed on the internet nowadays

[frigid karma]

Technically yes but in practice

[autumn sorrel]

You know what is basic Asian food? Steamed chicken and rice

[frigid karma]

I always order 菊花茶

[spring briar]

Number 76

Yes

[frigid karma]

It’s the goat

[autumn sorrel]

You still make ratatouille?

[frigid karma]

1 day old fried rice

With green onions everywhere

That’s proper Asian grub

[autumn sorrel]

As it should be

So many green

[spring briar]

?

[autumn sorrel]

But not in a too moist environment, rice get stale quick if stay too long out

[runic prairie]

Nah, had a Chinese roommate for a while. Blew my mind with tea brewing.

And keep in mind I liked the loose-leaf stuff not the bagged shit.

Boy did I have stuff to learn.

[autumn sorrel]

Stale rice still edible but the texture is fuck

[spring briar]

Italians took rice
And turned it into risotto

Canada took pizza
And added pineapple to it

[autumn sorrel]

Who tf stir fire rice raw

[spring briar]

Canada is asia ally

[autumn sorrel]

At least steam cook the rice first

[runic prairie]

Another reason for us to annex it.

[spring briar]

Are you in the us military?

[runic prairie]

I’m in the U.S.

[spring briar]

Yeah you aint doing shit

[autumn sorrel]

Nah, too nice, leave canada alone to their misery

[dapper parcel]

Whatever you do just don't wash the rice after cooking
Just, no

[frigid karma]

Did the room smell like garlic

[runic prairie]

That was my doing actually.

[frigid karma]

Heh

Was he southerner or northerner

[runic prairie]

Garlic goes well on lots of things.

[spring briar]

Don’t overdo garlic

And remove the germ

[frigid karma]

Incorrect

[runic prairie]

No such thing.

[frigid karma]

Garlic is love garlic is life

Got a cold?

Chew on garlic

[runic prairie]

Ginger’s actually very good for nausea.

[frigid karma]

But only in the summer

[runic prairie]

I learned to make ginger tea.

[frigid karma]

It’s turnips in winter

[autumn sorrel]

Garlic taste gud after you fry it up

[frigid karma]

Don’t need to

[spring briar]

It’s the best defence against pregnancy

[frigid karma]

I just mash that shit and mix it with vinegar for my dumplings

[runic prairie]

Based

[frigid karma]

Aanyways gonna sign off for the night

[runic prairie]

Night

[spring briar]

I hope you sleep well

Bitch

[runic prairie]

Sleep tight, don’t let the Backfires bite.

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

Weirdly. China didn't copy TU-22s

But has TU-16s aka H-6s

[runic prairie]

Tu-16 worked just fine

[spring briar]

@runic prairie what state you from

[manic latch]

America

[runic prairie]

Washington

[manic latch]

Told you

[spring briar]

Good

Good state

Good food

[autumn sorrel]

It isn’t a state

[runic prairie]

I know

[spring briar]

Above oregon

[runic prairie]

Nah. We’re a collection hallucination

[spring briar]

Blame DC

[runic prairie]

Meant to specifically confuse foreigners in regards to Washington State and Washington D.C.

[autumn sorrel]

They’re near Oregon, explain why. Hard to be notice when you have much more (in)famous neighbor

[runic prairie]

Oregon is just a poorer Washington.

[spring briar]

Noone

Gives

A

Shit

About

Oregon

It’s just cold California

[runic prairie]

It’s not cold

[spring briar]

It’s colder than california

[autumn sorrel]

Funnily enough, Mao would have love Mcunter to drop nuke and start ww3 early

[runic prairie]

California is basically Hell in temperature and environment.

Sorry

I shouldn’t insult Hell by comparing it to California.

[autumn sorrel]

Where is San Fran?

[spring briar]

In Cal

[runic prairie]

About the middle of California.

[spring briar]

San Fransisco has a lot of mist believe it or not

Ocean liners used to crash into the place where the golden gate bridge stands today

[runic prairie]

It gets the wetter sea-breeze that the Northwest also gets.

[autumn sorrel]

So treasure diving is a thing now

[spring briar]

Extreme heat from cali clashing with the north western sea breeze

[autumn sorrel]

Don’t know about San Fran but we haven’t found that mystical Yamashita’s gold just yet

[runic prairie]

Night y’all

[autumn sorrel]

Supposedly the transport sunk somewhere in Quang Ngai but nobody found it yet

Bye

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

Nice work Turkey

May fly on May 1

[manic latch]

New Turkish mini cruise? Missile

It looks like amogus

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/04/china-now-has-8-type-055-destroyers-in-active-service/

[runic prairie]

Reminds me of LOCAAS

[manic latch]

Cute

M48 and T-54s standoff, Berlin 1961

[runic prairie]

I wonder what their ammunition situation looks like. I guess that kinda depends on how they produce the HHQ-9, given it’s just a navalized variant of the HQ-9.

[runic prairie]

The USN uses proprietary missiles (save for the program looking to integrate PAC-3 and PAC-3 MSE into VLS cells).

[shrewd pecan]

French trials of the F-15

[strong plank]

how come they turned it down?

[shrewd pecan]

no clue but I’m assuming it’s more France preferring domestic/European offerings

From what I’m getting from the French accounts I follow it’s additionally wanting to gain a experience of what a successor to the mirage 2000 would eventually look like

So part of the conceptualization of the Rafale

[runic prairie]

They’re French. They like French things.

[ivory ridge]

pretty much

[delicate beacon]

A native product is more easily manageable than a foreign product.

[shrewd pecan]

That’s not really true

especially considering how expensive/bogged down programs like Leclerc and Rafale were for the French before they entered service

Similar story with the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle

[delicate beacon]

Not saying it's cheaper.

[frigid karma]

Foreign arms means you are putting your reliance on someone else

It’s a balance

[manic latch]

@tough quail T-80BV Gas Turbine start up

[tough quail]

Jesus Christ calm down there hell demon

[chilly osprey]

Hard to say, we don't really have a good look into their ammunition procurement. They're certainly not as transparent as the United States is.

In the past we've had assessments that are less sanguine (as their internal asssessments tend to be) that cast considerable concerns about the state of their complex munitions stores. Ex;

The PLA estimated that the amount of reserves in 2017 could not meet the requirements of a large-scale war; first line depots are described as empty, second line depots as weak, and third line depots are far from the front line. Reserves of new and advanced materiel are not fully established while old materiel accounts for a large portion of the war reserves.
From: CMSI China Maritime Report No.22

With the rate of introduction of new ships into service since 2017 (at which point there were only six Type 052D in service!), it is dubious that missile procurement has actually kept pace with ship procurement, at least if you assume the standard of 'have 1.5x what you can fit in your magazines'

[manic latch]

China will grow larger

[chilly osprey]

Well, their navy certainly has

[shrewd pecan]

https://defence-blog.com/russian-bmp-3-spotted-at-us-armys-premier-test-center/?amp

[frigid karma]

Comes for free with the t-90

[manic latch]

Ukraine already had 4 BMP-3s they got from collapse

Decent trade if other side captures Leo2 and Abrams

Tho wars shows capturing is only good for propaganda and making a counter if you truly don't know their stats

Current events ain't different. If you don't have spare parts for the thing you captured you either cannibalize it for tanks you use and or just let it stay somewhere

[ivory ridge]

[chilly osprey]

Certainly. I mean, there are certain things that are extremely difficult to get information on and develop effective counters to. So, say, if you are able to capture several trailers of EW equipment and poke over that, or, hypothetically, get a look at the turret armor of a T-90A, then it's a huge boon.

The vast majority of equipment is going to be less useful from an R&D point of view, though it can also be pressed into service against the former users.

This happened a lot in WWII, for example.

Cue Australian M13/40's and Italian Matilda's.

[spring briar]

Undy, phoe
I found it

[runic prairie]

I mean the normal HQ-9s could be plug and play with the ships. The land-based HQ-9 uses a C-band engagement radar which likely pushed the Chinese to use C-band planar arrays in a similar manner to the S-band SPY series.

Probably very little need to adapt electronics in that respect, differing from the surface-based Patriot which needed an S-band datalink (in addition to the C-band and X-band links it already had) to be compatible with SPY array datalinks.

[ivory ridge]

[spring briar]

Remember this thing from 1846?

[strong plank]

A little bit of tomfoolery

[strong plank]

Russia already has an Abrams, at least an early model

I don’t see them capturing shit though

[autumn sorrel]

Hard to capture something when the other side don’t abandon their vehicle

[runic prairie]

I mean the Russians have captured some stuff.

Not much in the grand scheme of things but some stuff.

[autumn sorrel]

Early on, yeah but not much by now

[runic prairie]

True

[autumn sorrel]

Interestingly, Rus finally understand how much deficit they were in term of organization

Like how they use VDV and Spetnaz as front line troop so much to the point VDV is reduce to mech inf and Spetnaz use in mission that aren’t really suited for them.

[ivory ridge]

Cute

[strong plank]

I more mean like

Prolly won’t see those tanks see frontline use until they start going on the offensive

And I don’t see retreating Russian troops being in much of a position to capture enemy equipment

[runic prairie]

No NCOs?

[autumn sorrel]

Their NCO corps is absolutely gutted, their system pre war already pretty bad in term of keeping experienced NCO and combat attrition decimated what they have build up till that point, war teach people fast but it will take Rus a long time to rebuild their NCO corps

[manic latch]

Will depend on success of coming "counteroffensive"

I'm expecting putting captured Nlaws and Javelins to use for that

If Kornet fails to stop an Abrams then Javelin may succeed

[autumn sorrel]

They could give Javeline and NLAW to the chinese and ask for a made in CN version

[manic latch]

Likely already happen

[autumn sorrel]

Which model of Abram is being sent to Ukr?

[manic latch]

A1

[strong plank]

They would need to have captured a LOT of javelins for that

[manic latch]

Modified little

[runic prairie]

With DU removed

[strong plank]

M1A1SA

[autumn sorrel]

The good one or just mid?

[manic latch]

No clue

No DU for sure

[autumn sorrel]

Ah, the exported one

[runic prairie]

It’s alright. FCS is the most important bit.

[shrewd pecan]

they aren't gonna have a reasonable amount of captured munitions to make a difference

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, NATO electronic way better

[manic latch]

Against what. 30 Abrams? 31?

[shrewd pecan]

we also haven't seen captured NLAWs or Javelins in Russian service

[autumn sorrel]

Enough for a spearhead thrust ig

[strong plank]

M1A1 SA is an A1 with a “situational awareness” package

[shrewd pecan]

against the like 600+ donated tanks coming in ranging from Abrams to PT-91 no there not gonna have sufficient numbers of captured Javelins

[frigid karma]

We’re all gonna get banned but fuck it

[autumn sorrel]

Kornet can still knock them out

[strong plank]

-M1A1 AIM (Abrams Integrated Management): A program whereby older units are reconditioned to zero hour conditions;[73] and the tank is improved by adding Forward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) and Far Target Locate sensors, a tank-infantry phone, communications gear, including FBCB2 and Blue Force Tracking, to aid in crew situational awareness, and a thermal sight for the .50 caliber machine gun. General Dynamics has been awarded contracts by the U.S. Army to supply this variant.

• M1A1 SA (Situational Awareness): Upgrades similar to AIM tanks + new 3rd generation depleted uranium armor components.

[frigid karma]

Javelin montages were because of certain complete fucking idiots driving tanks straight into urban hell

[autumn sorrel]

Joke on Nimi, I already on Tea watchlist

[frigid karma]

Doing combined arms right means that the impact of infantry launchers is significantly diminished

[shrewd pecan]

I mean Abrams and Leo 2s are probably gonna be knocked out

but actually capturing either one of those is gonna be a entirely different ordeal

[strong plank]

You would not only need enough captured javelins/NLAWs (which I doubt they have) but, also you would need to deploy them in the right place

[chilly osprey]

They could be, but they could also not be. Ex, the Aster 30 missile family is generally the same between terrestrial and naval versions, but there are differences, despite using many of the same or at least related systems.

Certainly at least there's differences in which evolutions of either family have been integrated on what platforms. Ex, HQ-9A having a navalized version by HQ-9B not.

And taking HQ-9's away from the land-based batteries also deprives you of SAMs for those land-based batteries, which may not be desirable.

[autumn sorrel]

Rus ATGM may not have top attack but they were def build to pen NATO tank

[shrewd pecan]

Kornet?

depends on the armor package

[strong plank]

Capturing like 5 javelins doesn’t mean they’ll magically teleport to exactly where they’re needed

[manic latch]

True. But being defensive should make it easier. But I trust on Kornets more of course

[shrewd pecan]

but they aren't going through STRV-122/leopard 2A6 cheeks

that's for certain

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, and many others RPG model

[manic latch]

Don't they have mainly a4s

Which we know Kornet can destroy

[shrewd pecan]

Kornet will probably punch right through a 2A4

[frigid karma]

I recall seeing footage of a captured nlaw

It wasn’t used very well

[autumn sorrel]

Ukr don’t have them, do they?

[manic latch]

Some a6

[shrewd pecan]

yes they're getting a battalions worth of them

Swedes donated STRVs

[autumn sorrel]

Poland donation?

[shrewd pecan]

Germans are sending like 16 2A6s

[frigid karma]

They do

[manic latch]

German

[frigid karma]

This is January news

[strong plank]

Also the Abrams aren’t projected to arrive until after the funny

[manic latch]

Man they delayed Abrams fucking alot

[shrewd pecan]

the US has to retrofit the SAs for export so

as I said leopards are basically a stopgap until the Abrams horde arrives since I don't imagine its just gonna be 31 once the retrofit line gets going

[autumn sorrel]

I kinda turn off a bit, both side on my local group turn really rabid

[manic latch]

Hell Abrams was actually for 2024 at first

[strong plank]

Not a delay, it’s just how long stuff takes

[manic latch]

Chal 2, Leo 2:

[shrewd pecan]

they have to remove the DU

and put in a entirely new armor package

[runic prairie]

True, but generally seaborne power projection warrants the greater allocation of resources.

A cratered airbase is easier to repair than a sinking Aircraft Carrier.

[manic latch]

Did they really refit all of the Abrams with DUs

[frigid karma]

Yep

[shrewd pecan]

all of the non DU abrams are ancient

and have been sitting around for decades

[runic prairie]

Most get steel iirc but the Australians paid a lot for tungsten inserts.

[strong plank]

Think I read somewhere that M1A1SA is the standard used by the national guard

[frigid karma]

It took 3 weeks for himars to arrive from announcement

[shrewd pecan]

so there gonna have to be retrofitted before being sent out regardless

[frigid karma]

Abrams are taking this long because of retrofitting

[shrewd pecan]

I think Minnesota's NG uses SA's

tho I know quite a few NGs that have SEPs

[chilly osprey]

Certainly. But in this case they're more concerned with not doing the funny until they have adequate stocks of what they need, so I suspect they're not going to sweat it too hard if they can't easily drop in the land battery versions of the SAMs in the place of the naval versions. It could be done in a pinch, I'm sure, but - they're not exactly under such a critical time pressure.

[manic latch]

Chad Leclerc will still keep 0 casuality rate

[shrewd pecan]

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a unreported UAE Leclerc loss somewhere out there

[autumn sorrel]

How likely for Ukr to get APS on their tank?

[shrewd pecan]

unlikely

[manic latch]

Trophy?

Which one

[shrewd pecan]

main supplier isn't supplying

[autumn sorrel]

Problem?

[chilly osprey]

They need the platform more than they need to worry about gold-plating the platforms.

It's the same as the MBT question.

[autumn sorrel]

Isreal?

[shrewd pecan]

yes

[chilly osprey]

The point is less which specific modern MBTs they can get, and more 'can that MBT be made available in numbers and what is the easiest to sustain in numbers'

[autumn sorrel]

Trophy but maybe that German one as well

[shrewd pecan]

Israel doesn't want to give Russia justification to start dumping Syria with S-400s and other advanced systems by supplying to Ukraine

but at the same time are tolerating Iranian involvement with Russia

[frigid karma]

Countless leclercs were lost to the accountants

[manic latch]

But Leopard 2A8 will also use Trophy

[chilly osprey]

Accountants have destroyed large numbers of Leclerc and Ariete

[manic latch]

True

[strong plank]

Just occurred to me

are recovery vehicles being sent as well?

[shrewd pecan]

yes

[manic latch]

Of course

With bridge vehicles

[strong plank]

Figured, but I hadn’t heard it explicitly said

[frigid karma]

@chilly osprey whatever happens to towed anti tank artillery

[manic latch]

Abrams on a Soviet bridge wouldn't go well

[frigid karma]

Like

[shrewd pecan]

we haven't really seen much discussion on the amount of engineering and bridging equipment the US has been supplying

[frigid karma]

Rheinmetall 120 with a gun shield and wheels linked onto the back of a truck

[shrewd pecan]

I mean

[frigid karma]

Is it because of the need for fcs?

[shrewd pecan]

the Soviets were still making towed anti tank guns

to the point where they had both gun launched ATGMs, a radar guidance system and other features

[frigid karma]

But I mean in a modern sense

[chilly osprey]

Immobile anti-tank weapons excel at becoming dead

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprut_anti-tank_gun

[manic latch]

Lancets yeah

[shrewd pecan]

these are still in service

[manic latch]

Most m777 kills are by Lancets

[frigid karma]

But it’s not immobile, it’s tied to a truck

Shoot and scoot

[manic latch]

Even M109 gets hit by Lancets time to time

[autumn sorrel]

Funny thing, when a 40k art pieces getting named “Iron Dome”, it kick off a lot of fuzz, so much so that the artist have to change the name. The same crowd that complain about the name then start complaining about why Isreal don’t send Ukr the Iron Dome system, I really hate human sometimes.

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MT-12

[ivory ridge]

Ah yes, the """""""""captured""""""""" ATGMs

just

[chilly osprey]

Towed artillery is still viable because you don't have to see what you're shooting and thus your 'shoot and scoot' is based on enemy artillery's counter-battery time.

Towed AT guns need you to be much closer to the enemy, and at the ranges you're effective it is much easier for the enemy to rapidly locate and annihilate you.

[ivory ridge]

ignore the missing CLU

or the fact they

are empty tubes

[shrewd pecan]

most of the images I've seen are just empty NLAWs or Javelins tubes

[autumn sorrel]

PAVN have that, just not many and not many ammo left in storage

[manic latch]

How do you check they are empty or not

[strong plank]

Have you seen a javelin

[shrewd pecan]

god the fact these things have a radar

[autumn sorrel]

https://twitter.com/annquann/status/1650814716724531200?s=46&t=VmBPf9V3wtTffwschA-ygw

Lee Ann Quann (@AnnQuann)

"The end of an era"

Personnel of Vietnam People Army inspecting a batch of T-12 anti-tank guns of the reserve. Unlike its predecessors, T-12 possesses a smoothbore barrel that let it fires APFSDS/HEAT/HE shells as well as gun-launched ATGM.

Likes

156

Twitter · Apr 25, 2023, 10:51 AM

No idea how did we got those gun

[strong plank]

Now I’m just picturing the anti-tank gun scene from fury but with Abrams and Spruts

[frigid karma]

[autumn sorrel]

Unless the Abram is brain dead, Sprut will definitely be dead

[manic latch]

I'm wondering on how do you capture a tank unless crew leaving for obvious reason

For example Isis once captured an Iraq Abrams

[frigid karma]

Tank gets hit

[manic latch]

But how did they do it

[frigid karma]

Crew bails out

[manic latch]

Hits by what however

[frigid karma]

Shell?

[shrewd pecan]

happens

[frigid karma]

Kills the commander

People bug out

Unlike in wt

People are not content to sit in their seat while joe down in the driver’s compartment has his organs rearranged by the third british apds shell

In a row

[manic latch]

Tanks need to have some kind of inside kill switch for scuttle tbh

May make recovery harder or useless but won't get captured

[frigid karma]

That’s also kind of a terrible idea

Put live explosives in the fighting compartment

Nothing bad could happen

[strong plank]

That defeats the whole purpose

[manic latch]

What about a time fused shell that can go off in 2 minutes. With a special marker

[strong plank]

You either scuttle or you leave it recoverable

there’s no Goldilocks option

[frigid karma]

Kremlin you are

Vastly

Overplaying the importance of a tank being captured

[manic latch]

[frigid karma]

It’s on a very limited shelf life in enemy hands since they lack spare parts for it

Unless both sides have the same stuff

Or you’re losing said tanks en masse

[shrewd pecan]

I mean all you really have to do is just

[frigid karma]

Case in point:

[shrewd pecan]

open the bustle rack door

and throw a grenade in

[manic latch]

What was the fuse time of a grenade

[strong plank]

3 shall be the number of the count, and the number of the count shall be 3

[frigid karma]

Panthers and tigers captured would serve for as long as they could before breaking down. Smaller tanks could serve for longer because of the sheer quantity being captured that allowed a steady flow of spare paets

[autumn sorrel]

Only situation I can see Rus capture a Ukr tank is when a Spetnaz infiltration team or saboteurs getting close while their crew was outside of the tank but in that case, Rus prob destroy the tank than capturing it.

[manic latch]

True
Soviets has to replace 75mm guns of Stug 3

Since they had no ammo for it

Slapped 122mm instead

[autumn sorrel]

I kinda like the conversion of Stug

[manic latch]

Yosh

[autumn sorrel]

It not that bad

[frigid karma]

Murphy's law of combat

30. All five second grenade fuses are three seconds.

[manic latch]

Got replaced fast by Su-122

[frigid karma]

it's very hard to exactly sneak a tank out of a depot

[manic latch]

Most reliable way is usually as Qwerty said, crew leave because of shell impact. Or because they ran out of fuel

Or mine hit

[autumn sorrel]

Maybe on the field? I don’t think Rus will do a long range infiltration mission much nowaday and tank crew does get slack sometimes

[frigid karma]

in the field is even less likely

[manic latch]

There is only 30 of them

If there were hundreds maybe

[frigid karma]

Abrams aren't even in ukraine yet

the problem of course is

how are you driving this tank back to friendly lines?

You're not gonna want to spend time spray painting a logo onto your newly captured tank

and even if you do, there's no guarantee some mobik won't blast you on sight because you're approaching him

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, how are the implementation of Rus new assault company tactic? I heard some say the tactic is good but problem lying in how much it depend on their NCO.

[manic latch]

We are just weapon enthusiasts Gianarch

And yeah we should move on from too modern now

[autumn sorrel]

Fine, I would want to know why did Hall’s rifle wasn’t more popular? That rifle have so much potential in it.

[frigid karma]

this is the most erotic looking plane i've seen in a long long time

those curves

[autumn sorrel]

I only see angle

[manic latch]

She looks very sus with X-2 of Japan

[autumn sorrel]

Everyone is sus, everyone look like F-35

[manic latch]

She does have very wide distance between engines like Su-57

There is likely a device on that nose

Or tail

Either a parachute or EW

[autumn sorrel]

Parachute?

[manic latch]

Ye

[strong plank]

They put a gnome in there to act as a tail gunner

[autumn sorrel]

EW I imagine is close to the nose

[autumn sorrel]

Firing a .22 Lr MG?

[manic latch]

Should have said drag chute

[autumn sorrel]

Ah, Vietnamese, we borrow every word and group everything together and never bother to sub categorize them.

Drag chute and Parachute is basically the same in Vietnam

[manic latch]

In most Migs and Sukhois. Drag chute is at this tail

Not in 57 however. So it's likely EW tail for her

[autumn sorrel]

I know SU-57 will be sub par when comparing to other 5th gen about to come into service but she really sexy

Like that shape and the design, Sukhoi really know how to design good looking plane

[manic latch]

Yeah 57 is more of 4+++

Or 4.5 like Korea calls their KF-21

[autumn sorrel]

Rus still use analog on their ASW plane or they already use LED?

[manic latch]

[shrewd pecan]

https://tenor.com/view/f35-lockheed-martin-f35lightning-ii-plane-jet-plane-gif-15000980

just for that emote

[manic latch]

Tato I can always find F-35 one. Don't tempt me

You won't see her same ever again

[autumn sorrel]

Find that Anthropomorphic F-35

[manic latch]

[manic latch]

Found it

I don't plan to unleash

Hell let me DM you Arch

[autumn sorrel]

Everyone use nitro and can use emote, me being a peasant cannot

Why not

[manic latch]

Based

[shrewd pecan]

I still need to get a patch for that

shame there all iron-ons

[strong plank]

The mazel tough killed me

[manic latch]

Old ass of Su-57 not thick enough

New ass of Su-57

Mama

[autumn sorrel]

That certainly an improvement

[shrewd pecan]

that rear aspect be popping off in the radar goddamn

[manic latch]

Bro

You know that black guy ass meme?

[autumn sorrel]

I can imagine it already

[shrewd pecan]

ok I found the space laser patch in velcro

time to be irresponsible with money

[strong plank]

I keep looking at meme patches but I don’t have anything to put them on

[autumn sorrel]

Anyway for a radar or system like Panstir to know that it is being SEAD?

[shrewd pecan]

only patch I have is Saint NLAW

tho I'm just looking at like 3 more patches to pick up

[manic latch]

What is the best site to buy Plane patches

[autumn sorrel]

Amazon

[manic latch]

Wait

Where do you even use patches irl. Home collection only? I think outfit is better

[autumn sorrel]

Find a bomber jacket ig

[strong plank]

Yeah that’s what’s prevented me

[shrewd pecan]

gonna end up with the confusing combination

[strong plank]

I don’t do airsoft or larp or anything like that

[shrewd pecan]

what type?

personified?

or actual plane/squadron patches

[manic latch]

Actual of course

[shrewd pecan]

not sure for actual

[manic latch]

Do you know a site that does personified?

[shrewd pecan]

since I only know where to get atamonica's stuff

personified as in

anime girl

[manic latch]

Gib gib gib

[shrewd pecan]

https://kommandostore.com/collections/atamonica/products/gbu-12-paveway-ii-atamonica-bundle

[manic latch]

Oh dayun

Thanks

[shrewd pecan]

they have AMRAAM, A-10, B-2, F-117, AN-225 and AIM-9

alongside paveway

[subtle prawn]

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/singapore-drops-ultimax-100-light-machine-gun-for-m27-iar/

[shrewd pecan]

ah

[strong plank]

Huh

Failed IAR bid?

[shrewd pecan]

I suppose

[strong plank]

That’s interesting

How common is it to see a failed bid from one program see a different buyer?

Only one that jumps to my mind is the XM8

[autumn sorrel]

Stingray got bought up by Thai after they failed US bid

[shrewd pecan]

Stingray was primarily a export tank

its one of the like

twenty million US light tank prototypes during the 80s

and the only one to see any amount of success

[autumn sorrel]

And light tank as a concept still tracking on

[shrewd pecan]

personally

its good it wasn't procured until MPF

since we don't need to limit the vehicles off of being able to be parachuted

[strong plank]

I still find it really funny the marines adopted a 416 derivative for IAR

for a brief moment they got to have nicer kit than the army

[shrewd pecan]

I mean that assumes

XM7 actually gets widely issued

and doesn't end up just becoming a marksmen rifle

[ivory ridge]

light tanks
wheeled light tanks

[strong plank]

It’s tricky isn’t it

Bc I imagine with XM250 and XM7, they wouldn’t want to widely issue one without the other

[shrewd pecan]

its procuring a new round and new rifle for a type of combat

that didn't actually end up happening in the way you think it would

folding M240 and M249 into one machine gun isn't honestly that bad of a idea

even if its in 6.8

[strong plank]

6.8’s supposed to be somewhere between 5.56 and 7.62 NATO right

[shrewd pecan]

yes

[strong plank]

bc I remember hearing a lot of fuss about the recoil, but it’s not like battle rifles are a new concept

[shrewd pecan]

the recoil concerns are overblown

main issues is weight and ammo capacity

[strong plank]

And if the army does choose to widely issue it, they’ll have to have an awkward conversation with the rest of NATO

[shrewd pecan]

its hard to say what exactly to do when it comes to new rifles

there's been 30+ years of arms development since the M4 dropped so

I don't really think we should be sitting on the M4 forever

[strong plank]

Yeah I agree

It’s just been used for so long that switching off feels really weird

[shrewd pecan]

at the same time its hard to say if 6.8s really worth it or not

considering how 5.56 M4s are doing fine in the type of combat the XM7s is expected to fight in

[strong plank]

Just show me a funky Block II equivalent with quad rail and I’ll be sold

Yeah maybe the ideal replacement for the M4 isn’t a new cartridge, but further developments with 5.56

Piston design or something like that

[shrewd pecan]

I mean if there's any rifle that's gonna replace the M4 is probably some type of MCX variant or development

and the standard issue suppressors alongside the new scope are the right way to go

[strong plank]

Oh yeah 100%

I imagine the folding stock’s handy for dismounts too

[shrewd pecan]

likely

[strong plank]

it’d be interesting, if the army ends up deciding 6.8 isn’t worth it, what they’d inevitably choose instead

[shrewd pecan]

I can see 6.8 becoming the new machine gun cartidge

[strong plank]

Yeah from what I’ve heard the XM250 seems to be a straight upgrade to the 249

[shrewd pecan]

yeah

better recoil, lighter weight

just all around better

[frigid karma]

Otherwise known as SDI

That’s right, Reagan was a Jew

[shrewd pecan]

Deregulate the banks fed goyim!

[remote monolith]

we've had arms development yes

but what about leg development

haven't got so much of a peep about that one

[cerulean ice]

The Leg-ions are long gone Todd

no Romans roaming around anymore

[strong plank]

Enough about the Strategic Defense Initiative

When do we begin work on the Strategic Offense Initiative

[maiden citrus]

men at arms are old school, what about men at legs

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyMyAAVjxwE

[runic prairie]

We should be more proactive and have a Department of Offense rather than one of just Defense.

[cinder escarp]

It was the 'War Department' before they decided to euphemize it.

[runic prairie]

Cancel culture strikes again.

[frigid karma]

No more coast guard, we are attacking the coast now

[maiden citrus]

the fire fighters have become sinister

[frigid karma]

Foo fighters? I prefer Foo strategic bombers

[cinder escarp]

was much more baller back in the day, name wise

[frigid karma]

most suicidal japanese warrior vs average gandhi speech

[runic prairie]

Strategic Foo Command

[frigid karma]

the pacific or band of brothers, pick 1 and why

mfw

this ad works too well

i'm not joining out of spite

at how well they are targeting me

[runic prairie]

The Pacific. Sledge and his experience were more compelling on a personal level.

Reading his book, “With the Old Breed” was a more unvarnished view of the war in my opinion.

[frigid karma]

that's fair

i feel like the main weakness of both shows is it sacrifices historical characterization for plot. Sobel is portrayed as a one-dimensional dick, and Eugene when he signs up for colledge is weirdly over-edgy

[runic prairie]

Band of Brothers tries to make statements about PTSD but The Pacific succeeds.

Eugene was a broken man at the end of it.

Idk. I just think The Pacific handled that aspect better.

[frigid karma]

to clarify on my original statement

[runic prairie]

The scene when he went birding with his father broke me.

[frigid karma]

i think there's a scene where he's signing up for college that he kind of goes weirdly over the edge

[runic prairie]

True

[frigid karma]

otherwise the portrayal felt fine to me

[grave ravine]

A reminder that they operated a number of warships, including multiple sloops that would make captures during the quasi war and war of 1812, as well operating full blown ironclads in the ACW

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1651770026603495424

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

Happy Devil Dog Day! After the Germans were alleged to have called the U.S. Marines Teufel-Hunden, or "Devil Dogs" during WWI, a recruiting poster featured a bulldog chasing a dachshund. This poster inspired the USMC to adopt a bulldog as a mascot. Chesty XVI is current top dog.

Twitter · Apr 28, 2023, 2:07 AM

[sullen canyon]

Such a nice dogo

[fierce sparrow]

🐕‍🦺

[runic prairie]

https://youtu.be/Z0D6p3w2qgY

[runic prairie]

Skill issue

Should’ve sideclimbed.

[frigid karma]

Tenure_revoked% wr

Cant have tenure if there’s no one left to teach

[runic prairie]

Honestly that’s how I think we should manage all learning institutions.

[frigid karma]

Conscript them?

The anti GI bill, I see

[shrewd pecan]

Girth

[manic latch]

[autumn sorrel]

PTH130-K255B
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S09RkCZMBzg

Homemade 130mm SPG using Kraz 255B chassis

Certainly take inspiration from Cuban Jupiter SPG line

[manic latch]

Any updated on why 2 Apache crashed in Alaska?

Can't be engine failure for both

[manic latch]

Oh damn they collided

[shrewd pecan]

Alaskas probably the worse service station

Pure amount of times people have been attacked by bears up there

[manic latch]

I prefer big wheels like Rooikat

[tough quail]

large

[ivory ridge]

Such a shame a Rooikat 120 never happened

Only the MTTD which was still a 105 despite a lot of articles claiming otherwise

[supple sandal]

Lo and behold

The possible alternative timeline of the unholy alliance between Vietnam and US during the cold war

[desert agate]

notable is that when Ho Chi Minh declared the independence of North Vietnam, he quoted the Declaration of Independence among other American documents

[chilly osprey]

Vietnam was always more "get off my lawn" then it was "Spread the revolution".

As clearly demonstrated not even five years after the end of the 'Vietnam War', when a new one started thanks to the big red neighbour invading.

[supple sandal]

First indochina war
Second
Third

[autumn sorrel]

Ho was more of a Nationalist than a Communist, his successors was more the class struggle kind

[autumn sorrel]

Hopefully no any "fourth"

[autumn sorrel]

Also Spon, Ho declare independence of Vietnam in 1945, not "North Vietnam"

[supple sandal]

Where the leaders of South Vietnam government even come from?

Do they take part in fighting the French or Japanese?

[autumn sorrel]

Diem? He was an administrator under French, his family are of old Nguyen Dynasty civil servant.

Diem wasn't a jap collaborator but he pretty much hate Communism so he was indifferent to the French reoccupation.

Thieu was a French trained officer so he fought under the French

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g16oac56h4E

[grave ravine]

Not as unlikely as you may think, the US actually armed Ho and pals to fight Japan

Allowing France to reoccupy Vietnam was a grave foreign policy mistake

[autumn sorrel]

Tbf, Vietnamese also accidentally killed the only American agent who understand the benefit of allying with Ho bc he was mistaken as French

[frigid karma]

r/2asia4u is the gift that keeps on giving

[autumn sorrel]

Nah, not as fun as 2balkan4u

[tough quail]

same thing with more rice

[autumn sorrel]

Need more SEA casual racism, too much Filipino influence in the subreddit

[manic latch]

Tu-170 @tough quail

[tough quail]

nightmare

[spring briar]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-doge-dog-appear-doge-apear-apear-gif-21623218

[ivory ridge]

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ20568KVmk

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1651979433404661763
https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1651979434818191369

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1983, 3,000 friends and family of the crew of USS Enterpise waited on a pier in the rain for the carrier to return from an 8 month cruise only to see it get stuck in the mud 1,000 yards out. The crew lined the port side in an effort shift weight and dislodge the carrier.

Likes

416

Twitter · Apr 28, 2023, 3:59 PM

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

After 5 hours, the Enterprise was finally freed by tugs, the incoming tide, and the weight of the crew. On board was guest George Takei, best known for his role as Sulu on "Star Trek". He quipped that the event should be marked with a new drink named "Enterprise on the Rocks".

Likes

126

Twitter · Apr 28, 2023, 3:59 PM

Wait, that video contained an event that should not be named

[woeful otter]

@sacred meadow lmao

[sacred meadow]

Yep lmao

[sacred meadow]

Lmfao

So some fun facts about CVN-65

If we really stretch the definition of related, she and the ships of the Forrestal-class (and Kitty Hawk) could be considered cousins

CVN-65 shared a similar hull design (stretched out Forrestal hull) and shared the same powerplant layout design as Zippo

Only difference being she had 8 nuclear reactors instead of steam boilers

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1652050077349814281

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

Happy Abor Day! #DYK that the U.S. Navy manages a white oak forest on a 64,000-acre naval base in Indiana to provide timber for the maintenance of USS Constitution? The Constitution became known as "Old Ironsides" after British cannonballs bounced off her thick white oak hull.

Twitter · Apr 28, 2023, 8:40 PM

[manic latch]

She fought with Guerrière who was a 38-gun frigate of the French Navy, designed by Forfait. The British captured her and recommissioned her as HMS Guerriere. She is most famous for her fight against USS Constitution.

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

Nobody talks about the amazing escape of Constitution tho

Crew pulls her by rowing boats and throw drinking water etc out to have enough speed to escape from British fleet

It was a 57 hour chase

She almost got Bismarcked

[runic prairie]

Weakest American oarsman.

[spring briar]

starts watching a Drach video about US monitors of the civil war
it suddenly turns into a video about the British empire halfway through the vid

[delicate beacon]

I'm just expecting an anology about how the British design beat the French design at Hampton Roads.

[cerulean ice]

part of the British fleet was involved in the Civil War, wasn't it?

Helping the southern rebels

[spring briar]

[frigid karma]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS5YGeRL2IQ&ab_channel=WorldWarTwo

Ichi-Go now that i think about it shares significant similarities with kaiserschlact

[manic latch]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1652082327428956160?t=bRKDZXozktcZK0UbmMnWnA&s=19

The Spectator Index (@spectatorindex)

BREAKING: The US Army has decided to ground all helicopter pilots, except those on critical missions, for additional training after recent helicopter crashes.

Likes

631

Retweets

135

Twitter · Apr 28, 2023, 10:48 PM

[tough quail]

couldn't be me

https://i.imgur.com/ic1CRKU.png

regiments is fun

[ivory ridge]

https://twitter.com/vodk_anon/status/1651920056454897665

Vodka 🧊 (@vodk_anon)

https://t.co/srYAbBnsJo

Likes

732

Twitter · Apr 28, 2023, 12:03 PM

[manic latch]

Alien camo ye

Kinda ugly but

Still cool

[manic latch]

[tough quail]

jesus christ

[chilly osprey]

Hate those things

Not hard to kill but annoying in groups

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1652142695584788481

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1984, the battleship USS Iowa (BB-61) was recommissioned. Twice entered into the reserve fleets following WWII and the Korean War, the Iowa would be decommissioned for the third and final time in 1990 after 19 total years of active service.

Twitter · Apr 29, 2023, 2:48 AM

[runic prairie]

The Hind is interesting as it isn’t a true “Attack” Helicopter, rather it is an “Assault” Helicopter, meant to act like an airborne IFV.

Obviously it wasn’t pursued beyond the Hind but it remains an interesting note.

[autumn sorrel]

I think it suited the Soviet airborne doctrine quite well, its like the heli division concept of US but with more heavily armed and armor heli to carry the troop and stay around supporting them.

[thorny patio]

Bruh so ive been using royal fortune in my 1st SS fleet for months now, and she consistently gets the MVP slot alot.

How is a 18th century ship-of-the-line out-preforming ww2 subs?

[desert agate]

because thats what the game devs decided

not exactly a historical reason for it

[remote monolith]

as the founding developers intended

inshallah

anyway have a chonker Tarchia https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/706226199382196225/1101495115219992688/sgakiv4lulwa1.png

[maiden citrus]

chonk detected

[frigid karma]

Because she is best girl

[thorny patio]

I agree and I'm not really complaining, i just find it funny

Like she alot of times ends up clearing the field before even the other 2subs get a chance

I feel her biggest downside doesn't really come into play unless your having to manually control her in supply raids... Even then tho... My strategy there is use the subs to sneak through the main convoy, then use RF on the siren boss

Because God damn her guns go fast

Those hands are rated E for everyone

And then out of nowhere it starts raining cannonballs XD

I like to sortie her with U-110 cus her MVP line mentions feeding the enemy to the sharks... So in my twisted head i thought:

What if RF "fed" POWs to the SS girl who calls herself a shark? (Be as dark as you want with this: either she just holds them on her Mass-produc ship, or she just flat out EATS THEM)

[desert agate]

probably more relevant to #al-lore tbh

[thorny patio]

Eh, that's all I had on that

Back on history tho... Can someone explain to me subs with the prefix "SSV"?... I know what that denotes... But a hybrid sub-carrier? That just sounds impractical

[kindred reef]

it probably is

[thorny patio]

I present to you the main subject of reference

[desert agate]

SSV is a fictional designation given to submarines that carry aircraft in game
the concept was attempted a few times by a few countries, most successfully by Japan who had the Type B1 which carried a single plane, Type AM submarine, which carried two planes, and the I-400 class which carried 3

the French also had Surcouf, however her capability to operate fixed wing aircraft was removed in the 30s and replaced with a gyrocopter, the British and Americans both briefly attempted it and abandoned it, and the Germans also mounted some gyrocopters on their u-boats

[thorny patio]

They must've been pretty big if they had to carry planes in them, or were they just sorta like seaplane tenders that only served as mobile depots

[dapper parcel]

It was basically early attempt at making submarine an offensive weapon instead of ambush one
Early SSG if you will

[desert agate]

the I-400s were the largest submarines ever built until the SSBN became a concept in the 1960s

[thorny patio]

Ooooh

[desert agate]

they had hangars on board to store the aircraft, a crane to recover them and a catapult

[dapper parcel]

Regulus-armed USN submarines was basically the same concept

[desert agate]

you can see I-14s catapult on the left

[thorny patio]

Oooooh

[desert agate]

heres I-401 with her crane moving an aircraft, and her hangar open

[thorny patio]

Damn from the side she looks like a tiny half-sunken carrier

[desert agate]

in Japanese doctrine, the aircraft allowed the submarine to scout for targets to relay either back to the submarine, or to other friendly units

[thorny patio]

Makes sense

Allows them to do recon without immediately risking direct detection

[desert agate]

the I-400s meanwhile were designed to operate in unison and potentially deploy an airwing from under the sea, with concepts ranging from massed air attacks from the subs against American carrier groups, or a potential attempt to destroy the locks of the Panama Canal
none of these concepts were attempted and the war ended before a usable number of submarines (and their aircraft) could be built

[thorny patio]

Wait... You said they were the biggest... But bug enough to possibly hold a whole air wing???

[desert agate]

3 aircraft

10 subs thats 30 planes

[thorny patio]

Ah, i forgot that subs come in big packs

Checks out

[desert agate]

30 subs thats 90 planes

atrocious concept entirely unworkable

the subs didnt have the command facilities to be able to coordinate such large numbers of planes

[dapper parcel]

It's only Japan that deploy subs in big packs

[desert agate]

Japanese subs were deployed in such fashions because they were intended to attack warships, whereas all other nations used their subs to attack merchants

[thorny patio]

Well, the Germans were mostly confined to the north Atlantic and naval doctrine was influenced by the desire to "choke" the British isles.

The Japanese navy was much more aggressive and saw to directly challenge American naval power in the Pacific

[desert agate]

german, italian, british, american
while individual doctrine would often change the fundamental objective was the destruction of merchant shipping

the Japanese meanwhile built large, loud and fast subs designed for extended operations in the Pacific to hunt down warships over extended distances, rather than simply sitting in shipping lanes and let the enemy come to them

[thorny patio]

In your opinion, how effective was this compared to it's contemporaries?

Setting aside that they lost of course

[runic prairie]

There was some post-war work with a pair of Balao class to create transport submarine for Marines.

There’s images of Sealion operating with a helicopter but I don’t know if it carried it internally (there was space for an LVT for landing shore parties).

[desert agate]

the Japanese submarines achieved a grand total of 2 capital ships sunk by their vessels

USS Yorktown, which was already crippled, and had a very light ASW net

and USS Wasp

[dapper parcel]

While operating with normal submarine doctrine at that, not the battle line cordon BS

[desert agate]

the Japanese submarines utterly failed in their mission to perform scouting duties for the fleet, most critically at Midway, where they not only arrived after the American carriers had already departed but also didn't tell anyone that they'd arrived late leaving the Japanese carriers with an inaccurate view of the battlespace

[grave ravine]

The US also built large and fast boats, and some of the later German U-Boats approached the size of American and Japanese ones. While the US would end up using its submarine fleet primarily to choke off Japanese shipping, the US had actually built its fleet similar to Japan in the intent to inflict attritional losses on the enemy before the decisive battle

Of course the decisive battle got thrown entirely out the window with Midway, but up until Philippine Sea the US was similarly unsuccessful at using their subs as attritional assets

[desert agate]

about the grand sum of what the Japanese achieved with their subs, was commit a few warcrimes, scare the population of Sydney and midly inconvenience the garrison at Port Moresby

[grave ravine]

While the absolute failure of Japanese subs at Midway is known, less well known is the nearly as catastrophic failure of US subs at the same battle

[desert agate]

I think you mean the US subs cut off Japanese shipping not British

[thorny patio]

I assume you mean the Americans used their subs to protect British shipping?

[thorny patio]

Or that that too

[dapper parcel]

Asiatic fleet's blunder was somewhat covered by the Dutch's success tbf

[grave ravine]

Yeah My bad I meant they used it in practice to hit Japanese shipping

But the US submarine fleet was designed primarily to combat warships as well

[desert agate]

also Japanese subs were quite a bit larger than their American contemporaries, and much louder owing to a much more singular design purpose

[grave ravine]

The US also built large fast fleet boats, but the US was markedly better at building submarines (albeit markedly worse at building torpedoes for much of the war)

[desert agate]

American subs were built for attacking warships, but they were also built to attacking merchants, which is also what they mainly did

[thorny patio]

Seems like the only people good at building subs all around were the Germans XD i kid i kid

[grave ravine]

I mean a bit larger, but not a ton so, especially considering a lot of their submarines were the smaller RO classes rather than the larger I classes

[thorny patio]

And they never used their subs for combat

[desert agate]

the American submarines performed their scouting duties at Midway quite well compared to the Japanese

[grave ravine]

Like it varied, the largest I class submarines were a fair bit larger than the Gato and palls

[grave ravine]

No not really, the US submarines did pretty poorly at that, US scouting at Midway was carried by the Catalinas

[desert agate]

the primary failing comes from BuOrd and their mk14 shenanigans, which was no fault of the submarines

[grave ravine]

The couple times the subs managed to encounter the Japanese fleet, their reports were late and inaccurate

[thorny patio]

Another note regarding the Kriegsmarine subs:

Imo they didn't feel the urgency to focus on their fleets as they were more focused on the resources they could get overland

[grave ravine]

And Nimitz's original fleet plan relied on land based airpower and submarines being able to inflict losses, although the Japan not sending Zuikaku and the US being able to get Yorktown ready in time allowed the US to be a lot more aggressive and lessened the emphasis on submarine forces at the battle

[thorny patio]

Good ol' Nimitz

[grave ravine]

https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=8273&context=nwc-review

Great article by Parshall about US planning for Midway

It is worth noting that Japanese tactics for engaging fleets with submarines were fundamentally flawed, and their usage of picket lines was both easy for the US to avoid, and also tended to lead to heavy losses

Like the US's problems mainly stemmed from inexperience and the poor performance of torpedoes, once they figured out a lot of the issues US submarines turned into an effective attritional asset for the fleet in addition to their success in merchant raiding

Notably sinking Taiho and Shokaku at Philippine Sea

And sinking 2 cruisers and crippling a third at Palawan Passage

[thorny patio]

Picket-lines... As in they lined up side to side?...

[dapper parcel]

I love how a lot of midway strategic analysis revolve on Hornet being a dark horse

[grave ravine]

They deployed in very long and loose picket lines

[grave ravine]

Yeah, the Flight to Nowhere basically killed Yorktown

Fortunately Yorktown and Enterprise's air groups were up to the task of dealing with the Kido Butai

[desert agate]

I was under the impression that Nautilus sent a sighting report off at around 1000

[grave ravine]

The sighting report was inconsequential, the USN had been in contact with the Kido Butai for hours at that point

[desert agate]

i'd also note that American success in attacking Japanese merchants was thanks to heavy support from the RAAF's aerial mining operations, which were so significant that they justified 1/4 of American boats being based in Fremantle

[thorny patio]

I faintly recall in learning about the reasons so many fighters were lost at pearl was due to the planes all being close together in rows... The word "picket-lines" was used

[grave ravine]

And Tambor's report after running into the Japanese cruisers at night was flat out wrong

[desert agate]

the mining operations allowed the American submarines to sneak up on ports, which were engaged in mine clearing operations, finding a collection of merchants simply waiting to enter port, completely idle and letting fly

[grave ravine]

Thats a somewhat different usage of the word, the US planes were lined up for easy surveillance to prevent sabotage

[thorny patio]

Different application, same result.

[grave ravine]

Yeah, also often forgotten is the success of the aerial mining campaign against Japanese harbors late in the war

[desert agate]

those aerial mining operations were notably less successful thanks to being performed at high altitude from B-29s and against a force that was already for all intents and purposes, neutralised

[grave ravine]

In the case of Japanese submarine tactics, it refers to the fact that Japan would basically lay a loose line of Submarines across the ocean when they expected the US fleet to sortie in the expectation that one would make contact, and could then both inflict damage and relay a sighting report

It didn't work because the US expected them, and was pretty decent at ASW work

[desert agate]

the mining against the occupied East Indes and Southern Chinese ports however, occurred from Catalinas at low altitude against a very active Japanese merchant fleet

the mining operations also started at about the same time as the mk14s issues were fixed, allowing for American boat kill counts to skyrocket in 1943 compared to the previous year

[grave ravine]

The aerial mining efforts late in the war are thought to have fairly substantially contributed to the food supply problems in Japan late in the war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_England_(DE-635)#Anti-submarine_record This is probably the single best example of the US rolling up a Japanese Submarine picket line

[desert agate]

id argue thats a considerably lesser success compared to heavily contributing to the Japanese inability to extract meaningful resources such as oil and rubber from South East Asia

[grave ravine]

Thats fair, it likely would have come into play a lot more had the war not ended with the atomic bombs

but as it happened it did not massively affect the strategic calculus

[desert agate]

agreed

I am admittedly biased towards the RAAFs black cats as they're Australian and Australian contributions are often overlooked in discussion of the Pacific war but I think the deployment of 1/4 of American boats is nothing to ignore

Especially given the scale of the submarine base and its supporting facilities in Fremantle and the investment that was involved in those facilities

Interestingly the Submarine slipway built to support the American boats in the war is still in use as it hosts HMAS Ovens, a museum boat

[grave ravine]

Yeah basing at Fremantle and Darwin was incredibly important

since it allowed the ships to stay on station so much longer

[desert agate]

Darwin was less so until later in the war due to its vulnerability to Japanese attack

[grave ravine]

Basing in Darwin really picked up right as the issues in Mk14 were solved as well

Also often forgotten is the Kokoda Track Campaign

Heck if the Japanese hadn't diverted Shokaku and Zuikaku to fight at Coral Sea, Midway would have been a total mess

[desert agate]

Darwin was the initial planned base for American boats in 1942, but subsequent attacks caused the fleet to fleet to Broome, which was also bombed, them Fremantle with an FOB in Exmouth

Exmouth was also bombed

Albeit without casualties

there are still wrecks of Do-24s and Catalinas, visible at low tide in Broome

[quick shard]

yo chat wtf is there a Stony lookin fort with guns in the ph ocean?

[desert agate]

they actually found a new wreck in 2021

[grave ravine]

You mean this?

[grave ravine]

What ship?

[quick shard]

Oml its fort drum

[desert agate]

it's a Dutch Do-24

[grave ravine]

Ah

Really don't hear about those often

[desert agate]

one of the many carrying refugees from the DEI when the town was bombed

[grave ravine]

Ah

One of the Do-24s actually sank a Fubuki during the DEI campaign

[desert agate]

one of the rare successes of the type

[grave ravine]

Though considering the size of the production run, there are an awful lot of them that survive

[delicate beacon]

X bote

[delicate beacon]

Think it was a Catalina sinking the Shinonome no?

[grave ravine]

I mean there weren't Catalina's operating in the area AFAIK

And the timing of the dutch attack lines up with when she sank

On the topic of Catalina's, funny fact is that the only successful US torpedo attack during the entire battle of Midway was by a Catalina

[delicate beacon]

Ah yeah they were X-botes. Not a Catalina

[desert agate]

the Japanese interestingly made their initial plans for this campaign from a British school encyclopedia that stated there was a 'road' going across Papua New Guinea

the Japanese, believing this road was at the very least, a dirt track, brought hundreds of engineers and conscripted labourers from Rabaul to improve this road so it could support heavy equipment such as trucks and tanks

they were, to say the least, wrong

on the bright side all those labourers now found a new job
carrying supplies for the Japanese up and down the Owen Stanley range, and being shot the moment they slowed down

[frigid karma]

tfw british incompetency/falsehoods help your war effort

[grave ravine]

Its actually kinda crazy how little information there was about a lot of the Pacific Islands, and how bad the intel organizations were sometimes

Like there are anecdotes of Submarine captains navigating shoals by encyclopedias rather than the charts issued by the Navy on some islands

[desert agate]

hardly incompetence or falsehood, the island was, and to an extent, still is, one of the most isolated and hostile places on earth

[grave ravine]

And plenty of Submarines were just used to investigate the coastlines in the first place

Like maps and charts in the Asia Pacific were just really bad generally

[desert agate]

this was an encyclopedia made for children in the UK, it was hardly going to be an accurate portrayal of the area

there's an ongoing hostage crisis in West Papua right now
the Indonesians sent in special forces to rescue the captured pilot
4 soldiers killed, 1 missing, 5 wounded was the result according to the Indonesians

[frigid karma]

information regarding an area is inversely proportional to how likely the natives are to eat you

[desert agate]

this is in the 21st century and the internet age, back in the day the area was considerably more hostile

[shrewd pecan]

I mean its not really like there's gonna be much on a lot of these islands considering the best your likely getting is materials on is likely regarding either resource exploitation and whatever few population centers there are

[desert agate]

cannibalism is a rare practice among the native people of New Guinea

[grave ravine]

Don't forget no one was sharing maps either

[shrewd pecan]

that as well

[frigid karma]

0% rate is nevertheless noteworthy

I mean

the british set upon the dardanelles with a single outdated french map of the straits

So it's not the first time in history dirt poor intel resulted in military failure

[grave ravine]

So you know the Brits might have actually had half decent maps of say the interior of parts of PNG, but those were all stored far away from where the Japanese could get them, and the US likewise had plenty of issues getting sounding charts about the waters off of various outlying Japanese islands

[desert agate]

there was a member of the Papuan Infantry Battalion during the Kokoda campaign who slipped off from his Australian officers at dusk, the officers assumed that he'd deserted
he returned the next day with 15 severed Japanese heads

the officers told him that desecrating corpses was a war crime
his response was that they weren't corpses when he found them

[grave ravine]

The Pacific Theater was characterized by consistently bad intelligence of the geography of the region

[desert agate]

they did not

hell, even Australia didn't

[grave ravine]

I meant in the sense of at least far better than what Japan had access too, but yeah Im not surprised they werent good either

[desert agate]

the AIF garrison in Port Moresby that was sent even before the Japanese attacked, made no effort to even send a patrol up the track to assess conditions and create a map

[frigid karma]

"Heaven is Java; hell is Burma; but no one returns alive from New Guinea.”

main reason for japanese losses there though, as usual, was rampant disease

[desert agate]

the 39th and 53rd battalions were the first units sent up the track in 1942 and they went completely blind

[grave ravine]

And starvation

[shrewd pecan]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/26/world/papua-new-zealand-pilot-hostage-video-mehrtens-intl-hnk/index.html
ok the pictures from this alone have me interested in this rebel group

[desert agate]

and when wounded started making their way down the track, their reports were mostly ignored by the AIF officers who believed the militia soldiers of the AMF were entirely incompetent and had no accurate information

[frigid karma]

average rust server

[desert agate]

even once the 7th division was sent up the track, Blamey and to a greater extent, MacArthur completely ignored reports from the front, MacArthur even refused to accept that the Australian retreat was in any way justified when he was standing at the mouth of the track

[grave ravine]

Classic MacArthur moment

[desert agate]

Basil Morris was arguably the cause of it all since he perceived himself as more of a colonial governor than a general

he even deposed the actual governor of the province and stole his house to use as a 'headquarters' only to sit in it all day and have his troops dig holes for 6 months

[frigid karma]

MacArthur and Halsey fighting over who can be more racist to Australians and Japanese respectively

(Halsey wins obviously but MacArthur gives it a good go)