will QE still be around by the time Ford retires
#history
strong plank
manic latch
She will also be 70s irrc
frigid karma
yes, the horse is an easy as fuck target for artillery and machine guns
but its use on the eastern front and not the western front clearly shows; its ability to exercise its niche, not its weaknesses, defined its role
strong plank
QE was commissioned like 4-5 years earlier
frigid karma
(of course the two are somewhat interconnected)
And in any case it's a bit of a stretch to call a nimitz a scam
strong plank
and you could probably go into some long tangent about how hard the brits work their carriers vs the us
frigid karma
she did what the usn needed her to do for the length of time they need her to do it
manic latch
Around same time retirement I guess
frigid karma
simple as
strong plank
And in any case it's a bit of a stretch to call a nimitz a scam
at this point in its service, it would be a terrible purchase
manic latch
Like that Brazil carrier which become too dangerous with high asbestos
Nobody wanted to scrap her
frigid karma
at this point in its service, it would be a terrible purchase
sell her to a random country with questionable safety standards, a lot of concrete, and a need for tourism
strong plank
and let others poke around them and steal secrets?
we're not the soviets
or well, it was the russians at that point
frigid karma
fair
strong plank
I imagine civvies don't get to run around the entirety of the carrier
or measure sections of antenna
frigid karma
I imagine civvies don't get to run around the entirety of the carrier
but that's where the second part of the plan comes in
manic latch
Australia? Sold HMAS Melbourne for scrap to China. Likely how China saw a catapult technology for the first time
runic prairie
Y’all need to chill I was making a joke.
In case you are not aware: buying the Nimitz at this point is a stupid idea. It’s got limited growth potential and would be damn expensive to run.
strong plank
what we should do
manic latch
True
strong plank
is develop that light carrier that the navy was muttering about a few years ago
frigid karma
Or do the ol'
manic latch
But Enty is somewhat at scrapping stage
runic prairie
Probably going to be scrapped
frigid karma
weapons test
strong plank
and poke around for an export market
runic prairie
weapons test
Already did that.
frigid karma
and poke around for an export market
well
manic latch
weapons test
Uss America
frigid karma
if you're willing to produce an export market cv
you're probably willing to produce it in a foreign country, since, you know, you'll be selling it anyway
strong plank
considering a light carrier by US standards is a full carrier for other nations
frigid karma
so what about contracting SK to build us some light CVs for the export market (or for ourselves, god we really need more hulls in water)
strong plank
building them across the world's a pretty terrible idea
frigid karma
building them across the world's a pretty terrible idea
yeah, i thought that too
but since it's an export market CV
y'know
manic latch
Nimitz also wants a 5000 crew
frigid karma
you're already exporting it to other countries, so why the fuck not build it in other countries?
strong plank
why do that when you could
frigid karma
SK can actually produce more than 2 ships a millennium
strong plank
unfuck domestic shipbuilding
manic latch
you're already exporting it to other countries, so why the fuck not build it in ...
Who ever did that. That's usually done by build by lisence only
strong plank
you would also need to produce EMALs stateside
and uh
that would be a long ass trip to fit out
manic latch
France will likely buy Emals from US
frigid karma
unfuck domestic shipbuilding
manic latch
Replacing CVN with CVL is weird ye
It's like accepting they are obsolete or something
desert agate
Australia? Sold HMAS Melbourne for scrap to China. Likely how China saw a catapu...
the cats were the least important aspect of the Melbourne sale
strong plank
It's like accepting they are obsolete or something
more of a cost saving measure than anything
manic latch
the cats were the least important aspect of the Melbourne sale
What more vital she had
desert agate
it showed the Chinese how to conduct carrier operations, how carrier decks should be laid out and how personnel should move around the deck
it gave them a fundamental basic understanding of carriers
manic latch
Ah
strong plank
you know how some stuff works out to be really funny in hindsight
desert agate
the flight deck itself was reportedly removed from the hull and was used for training as late as 2010
it also showed them things like maintenance areas, parking arrangements and armament lift arrangements
strong plank
the exploitation team wanted to take the soviet naval crest off of minsk as a souvenir
desert agate
how to move fuel and armament from below decks to the hangar onto aircraft and then off the deck
strong plank
and I'm just picturing how funny that'd be when she doesn't get scrapped and the chinese buy her
frigid karma
it showed the Chinese how to conduct carrier operations, how carrier decks shoul...
didn't they buy soviet carriers before hand?
manic latch
They got 4 carriers till 1985
Melbourne
Minsk
Kiev
Varyag
strong plank
minsk was almost certainly examined thoroughly before she was handed back to the businessman who bought her
desert agate
fundamental basics of carrier operation from a navy that independently developed its own operating doctrine based on both the royal navy and us navy, and its own influences
strong plank
minsk was almost certainly examined thoroughly before she was handed back to the...
same with kiev
frigid karma
ah
manic latch
They got 4 carriers till 1985
Melbourne
Minsk
Kiev
Varyag
Varyag and Melbourne were the massive boosters. Since Kiev, Minsk was Vtol reliant
strong plank
varyag was made into an operational CV
desert agate
melbourne was the first
liaoning didnt arrive in China until 1998
Minsk 1995
Kiev 1996
Melbourne 1985
strong plank
you also can't really train on a kiev-class deck
manic latch
you also can't really train on a kiev-class deck
Helicopters only
strong plank
or not as effectively at least
desert agate
Melbourne was the first time that any PLAN officer had such unrestricted and intimate access to an aircraft carrier and its operations
strong plank
Helicopters only
that and it's just the angled deck
frigid karma
well, it wasn't exactly a bad call in the 90s
manic latch
Australia helping China carrier force 
frigid karma
i doubt australia understood the involvement the chinese government has in
about everything
nor were they exactly aware of any attempts to militarize navally
in fact desert storm had basically shifted chinese defense policy to shitting their pants
strong plank
that's why you have to send in teams to nab any easy intel before the ships are bought
frigid karma
but the sale of melbourne is arguably what pushed china to start their CV programs
because "lmao we have a giant fucking ship in guangzhou"
desert agate
i have absolutely no doubt that navy was very aware of the Chinese intention with the ship
frigid karma
yeah, they did remove a lot of stuff
they also
kept a lot of stuff
well, that's government for you
manic latch
Prior to the ship's departure for China, the RAN stripped Melbourne of all electronic equipment and weapons, and welded her rudders into a fixed position so that she could not be reactivated. However, her steam catapult, arresting equipment and mirror landing system were not removed. At this time, few western experts expected that the Chinese government would attempt to develop aircraft carriers in the future.
desert agate
fact is that China gave the best price, and China wasn't considered a regional threat
strong plank
boy that aged like fine wine
desert agate
the sale of Melbourne was hardly the best idea but I have no doubt that China would have developed carrier capability eventually
strong plank
not like the US' guesses fared much better
manic latch
Chinese engineers reverse-engineered a land-based replica of the steam catapult and landing system from that of HMAS Melbourne, and a J-8IIG was used to conduct take-off and landing trials on the land-based flight deck in April 1987, which was not finally confirmed officially until 27 years later in April 2014 by CCTV-13
desert agate
all it did was help remove some of the trial and error from the PLANs development of the capability
manic latch
In 1997, China attempted to purchase the retired French aircraft carrier Clemenceau, but negotiations between China and France failed 
desert agate
retiring Melbourne without replacement was probably the Australian governments largest strategic blunder since 1941
but at the end of the day it was 40 years ago and there was no viable replacement
desert agate
F-35 was barely a napkin drawing in 1982
manic latch
Harrier?
desert agate
the intention was to replace Melbourne with HMS Invincible, which would be renamed HMAS Australia
that sale however, a mere handful of weeks away from being completed, was called off when Argentina invaded the Falklands
manic latch
F
desert agate
Melbournes sister, HMAS Sydney was the dawn of Australias expeditionary deployment capability, as she was used as a troop transport in Vietnam which would develop experience in such operations, effectively making her the starting point for RANs modern force structure
due to being started during the war, British steel manufacturing had degraded considerably which meant that she couldn't be refit to operate modern naval jets like Melbourne, nor could she be refit with an angled flight deck, meaning her primary capability was as a troop transport
strong plank
That photo just reminded me
Last time I was in DC, the Australian embassy was undergoing renovations
So as a temporary thing, they’re operating out of the National Geographic building
manic latch
God she is ugly
Wish Turkey choose the Italian offer instead Spanish
That one was looking sexy
manic latch
Wish Turkey choose the Italian offer instead Spanish
If I ain't wrong it was like this
desert agate
Last time I was in DC, the Australian embassy was undergoing renovations
Probably because a new ambassador has just arrived
The one and only Kevin Rudd
Arguably no westerner has a greater or more intimate knowledge of China, the CCP and the relationship between China and the West than Kevin Rudd
He's single handedly been spearheading dialogue between China and the US ever since he left office
He's been CEO and President of the Asia Society and the International Peace Institute and was nearly UN secretary general
No better choice for ambassador to the US given the geopolitical environment the Asia Pacific finds itself in
manic latch
CN likely 2026
desert agate
those are F-22s on the flight deck
with folding wingtips
comedic copium
desert agate
yeah uh no
unborn wyvern
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euwJ_0xrl6I&ab_channel=DefenceAustralia
Are they copying perun?
desert agate
those engines in the graphic are the very distinctive Pratt & Whitney F119 with their rectangular, radar deflecting nozzles
desert agate
Are they copying perun?
perun literally uses one of the default templates on power point
ADF has been using this style of thumbnail for years
unborn wyvern
Note to self, copy Perun and the ADF when making PP slides for college 
dapper parcel
Perun is very good example on how to make effective presentation
autumn sorrel
Slightly less dumb question, how viable is ship borne APS system?
remote monolith
old train advert from 1937, made by the Dutch East Indies's government run train company, the Staat Spoorwagen , promoting the ease of mudik travel when using trains
@delicate beacon you might enjoy this
remote monolith
nah, why would that be the case
autumn sorrel
I don’t think Indonesian will be that petty
delicate beacon
I'm still not sure how the Dutch Indonesian relations were so it's hard for me to tell.
I only know the basics of the early 20th century.
remote monolith
like, now? its mostly chill, there's the occasional flare up but otherwise vast majority of Indonesians won't hate modern Dutch and everything about it just because of the colonization history
autumn sorrel
Indonesian kinda go a bit hardcore on their independence, and the Papua colony dispute certainly burn a lot of bridge
remote monolith
Papua is, well, pretty contentious even now. Not gonna touch about it since I know there's a lot of conflicting opinions about it between Indonesia, Australia, New Zealand, and Papuans themselves
delicate beacon
That's the one thing that always struck me peculiar.
How did ultranationalism work out with the cultural diversity of the region.
autumn sorrel
Modern Indonesian is more tolerable but certainly not right after independence, don’t forget Surkano was a very “anti-imperialist” as in he anti any western influences but doesn’t mind if Jakarta get the rest of Dutch East Indie colony in the region.
autumn sorrel
How did ultranationalism work out with the cultural diversity of the region.
Not very well
remote monolith
as I said, contentious stuff
remote monolith
How did ultranationalism work out with the cultural diversity of the region.
honestly, surprisingly well, yet its not without its hiccups
throughout the 1950s and into the 2000s separatism is a very real issue
but most of it isn't ethnic based, but rather political, religious, and military ones
eg the Darul Islam rebellion was based on the desire to create an Indonesian Caliphate
the PRRI/Permesta movement was cooked by secular military warlords
dapper parcel
Not very well
Uh huh, nationalism actually works pretty well across culture diversity, for now
It can be quite different conversation when talking about religious diversity, for now
remote monolith
really, the danger to Indonesian unity isn't on ethnicity issues, but in religious and political ones
the average Javanese bloke doesn't take issue with say, Minangkabauan or Bugisian person, but might take issue if they follow Catholicism or Shamanism
dapper parcel
I thought everything related to the Dutch would be burned.
To this day most of currently running long range rail network was pretty much still the exact same network that was left from Staatsspoorwegen and Nederlands-Indische Spoorweg Maatschappij days
remote monolith
To this day *most* of currently running long range rail network was pretty much ...
the old SS lines are even more extensive than modern lines
since those goes deep into inland cities
mostly to facilitate plantation activities, but still
autumn sorrel
Uh huh, nationalism actually works pretty well across culture diversity, for now...
Well, nationalism when it encompasses multi ethnic group sometimes work quite well but it also depend on which group you are talking about, 2 groups that was closely link through generations and have cultural exchanges will be more amiable to sharing the same national identity. But throwing in a group that was historically discriminated against, neglected by previous ruler and sometime have a very different view on their identity, it bound to create friction.
But yeah, religious beliefs many time prove more volatile
delicate beacon
If only we could've exported our tolerance 
dapper parcel
Well, nationalism when it encompasses multi ethnic group sometimes work quite we...
The common thinking (at least for their representatives) was that they'd ends up worse separating when central govt was pretty much bankrolling their development.
Some of the current separatism was also pretty much that, bargaining chips by local officials to secure "development" funds
delicate beacon
since those goes deep into inland cities
I suppose modern train usage is quite different as well.
autumn sorrel
The common thinking (at least for their representatives) was that they'd ends up...
Pretty much most modern separatist movement outside of Africa.
remote monolith
I suppose modern train usage is quite different as well.
mostly to just link major cities, and as part of a local city network
dapper parcel
I suppose modern train usage is quite different as well.
More about how modern urban economy centers shifted from the old agriculture-based one
remote monolith
to go deep you'll have to use motorcycles and cars
delicate beacon
Hard for me to visualise since not only do I live in a great country PT wise I also live close to a station.
eternal veldt
@desert agate
kindred reef
why did dreadnoughts have those backward facing poles on the hull?
eternal veldt
You mean their tripod masts? They're mostly spotting tops.
The higher you are, the earlier your chance to spot the enemy and subsequently plot their course and bearing.
kindred reef
no i mean the ones on the hull, like near the waterline
eternal veldt
Those are torpedo nets, a WW1 mainstay on battleships.
kindred reef
i see
eternal veldt
kindred reef
that is cool
eternal veldt
and also, Yamato off Tateyama. Relatively obscure pic.
manic latch
Looks fake ngl
Feels like 3D rendered model with that second turret and superstructure 
eternal veldt
counterpoint: is this also a 3d model?
subtle prawn
quick shard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvFTvV53NpE
the hell is that
desert agate
runic prairie
Slightly less dumb question, how viable is ship borne APS system?
You mean CIWS?
runic prairie
ERA?
manic latch
Nah the tank APS
runic prairie
How is its role any different than a CIWS?
manic latch
Hmm
runic prairie
Besides, a traditional APS wouldn’t help. You need to destroy ASMs from a standoff distance.
autumn sorrel
Besides, a traditional APS wouldn’t help. You need to destroy ASMs from a stando...
Let it just say when the missile come so close that CIWS have trouble lock on, can an APS like system works?
shrewd pecan
if the CIWS is going to struggle
trophy or any other APS is going to struggle
in terms of larger surface combatants
you don't really get any benefit out of tank style APSs due to well
the ranges it engages threats at is likely gonna mean a large missile is still slamming into your ship
if your talking about smaller surface combatants such as patrol boats or gun boats
APSs could likely be of us
for example I imagine something like a CB90 could make good use out of trophy
autumn sorrel
for example I imagine something like a CB90 could make good use out of trophy
It likely gonna be target by atgm so I expect APS to work well
shrewd pecan
its not gonna stop actual ASMs being flung at them
tho coastal defenses using ATGMs or other similar threats it would likely work
on larger vessels able to mount actual CIWS systems there's no point
runic prairie
Let it just say when the missile come so close that CIWS have trouble lock on, c...
A detonation at the standoff range of an APS will be about as bad as a hit.
Heavy parts like the motor are still going to slam into the ship.
Even something like Phalanx isn’t great as it would tend to kill targets close enough for major damage to the ship, hence why it’s largely being replaced by SeaRAM, which has a longer range and higher PK.
shrewd pecan
anyway here's my 50 page imaginary argument why we need to replace the Phalanx with the 50 MM Bushmaster
runic prairie
anyway here's my 50 page imaginary argument why we need to replace the Phalanx w...
Just about anything is better than the Phalanx
shrewd pecan
honestly I wonder if it would be doable to just
reuse the radar and pair it with either the 35 or 50 MM bushmaster
so you have something with better range combined with proxy fuze ammo
runic prairie
There were plans to use a 60mm ETC with guided rounds to replace the Phalanx.
Used the same mounting base
For guns you really need guided ammunition.
tribal mortar
shrewd pecan
hard to say if you could pull guided ammunition on something like the bushmaster
and keep it affordable
tho I imagine going with a larger gun with proxy fuze ammo likely would be the best solution beyond just replacing everything with SEARAMs
runic prairie
It’s cheaper to buy ammunition than buy a new ship
dusty kraken
when are we getting sci-fi shields already smh my head
shrewd pecan
50 MM laser guided rounds
runic prairie
Hard to track the incoming VAMPIRE.
Most systems focus on command datalinks.
dapper parcel
Let it just say when the missile come so close that CIWS have trouble lock on, c...
AShM are looong (and huge). How do you even tune the standoff and cutoff delay?
Cut too early on rear-loaded missile (brahmos etc) and you may only blast the seeker while the warhead is mostly fine
Cut too late on a front-loaded missile (tomahawk etc) and you may only blast the booster while the warhead is mostly fine
manic latch
Yo Tato
shrewd pecan
hi
shrewd pecan
the 25 MM Bushmaster is capable of higher fire rates
considering the one on the ADATs is capable of over double the Bradley's
manic latch
So what's the low option for
shrewd pecan
tho for obvious reasons you don't want the Bradley expending all of its ammo in a short span of time
manic latch
Gunner check I see
shrewd pecan
also if I recall correctly doctrine for the most parts has Bradley gunners firing mostly in short bursts
so I don't really think a higher fire rate would make a difference for anything beyond anti aircraft work
shrewd pecan
I will us my full might to avoid using 76 MMs
dapper parcel
anything but 40mm or 57mm
autumn sorrel
Is proximity airburst round still effective against AShM?
chilly osprey
Certainly, at least within a certain class.
runic prairie
Is proximity airburst round still effective against AShM?
It’s better than nothing.
shrewd pecan
Compared to Dardo
honestly no idea
compared to the 20 MM Phalanx
35 MM or 50 MM would likely be more effective
manic latch
Not making BMP larger for armor and interior was a gigantic Soviet mistake
It's a children sitting level
runic prairie
Is proximity airburst round still effective against AShM?
Against a styx or shaddock missile the U.S. gave a 5”/54 Mk 42 a 14% chance to destroy the target.
So not great.
Granted FCS has improved but the Mk 42 also had a far higher rate of fire than modern guns.
Additionally neither the Styx nor Shaddock were real sea-skimmers.
manic latch
Likely Soviet assumption was "BMP will likely face APFDS and ATGMS so no armor on IFV is reasonable against them. Just make it good enough for 7.62mm guns and 14mm ish for front"
chilly osprey
Mmm. I do recall the MMI tested the 127/54C against AShMs and found it more successful than they were expecting, but that certainly did not cause them to invest into any real anti-missile capability on the part of the gun.
As meme as a 127mm DART would be...
autumn sorrel
Not making BMP larger for armor and interior was a gigantic Soviet mistake <:lo...
How do a 5’9 guy fit in there?
chilly osprey
Uncomfortably.
shrewd pecan
in pain while crammed in with 6 of his buddies
manic latch
How do a 5’9 guy fit in there?
Maybe people were smaller in 1960s. But then you have guys like these in Soviet-Afghan war
So engineer mistake %100
autumn sorrel
I curse my height sometime, can’t even crawl properly in Cu Chi
autumn sorrel
BMPs should have been replaced in 90s
Oh wait. 90s
PAVN reject BMP-2 in favor of BMP-1 for some reason
Despite we have quite a stock of BMP-2
runic prairie
As meme as a 127mm DART would be...
Guided ammunition is a whole different beast.
manic latch
Bmp-1 is better for anti light
-2 got 30mm cannon
But 2M is King. 30mm and 4 Kornet 
autumn sorrel
-2 got 30mm cannon
Could be bc the caliber, afaik PAVN don’t use any other weapon system with that caliber
runic prairie
But 2M is King. 30mm and 4 Kornet <:Prayge:886365734530326539>
Average WarThunder Player
manic latch
Average WarThunder Player
Algerie* had a decent BPM-2M fleet
autumn sorrel
12.7->14.5->23mm->37mm, no 30mm
dapper parcel
wtf 23mm anyway? isn't that aircraft gun?
dapper parcel
oh right
autumn sorrel
wtf 23mm anyway? isn't that aircraft gun?
Yeah, we use Shilka, modern it by adding 4 igla and new FCS
dapper parcel
For some reason I thought shilka was 37mm
manic latch
For some reason I thought shilka was 37mm
autumn sorrel
But 2M is King. 30mm and 4 Kornet <:Prayge:886365734530326539>
No kornet, only Konkurs
manic latch
She was a variant for longer ranges
autumn sorrel
4 23mm is Dakka
autumn sorrel
Yosh
Polish variant, Vietnam variant also similar
Hey Krem, how effective is Shtora soft kill system?
manic latch
Hey Krem, how effective is Shtora soft kill system?
The Shtora-1 can effectively jam obsolete SACLOS missiles such as the TOW, HOT, MILAN, Dragon, and Malyutka and laser guided weapons such as the Copperhead and some variants of the Maverick and Hellfire
But as it says
Old missiles or variants
Things like Tow-2 ignores it
Hard kill is better
autumn sorrel
So we got scammed
manic latch
Depends on what your enemy use
autumn sorrel
I expect PLA at least modernize their ATGM
manic latch
Ah PLA
Yeah just remove them
The jammers have been removed from many currently serving T-90s and the more modern S and M variants did not include them
autumn sorrel
We get the S model, they still being used as standard equipment
manic latch
This was the American Shtora but
I think Abrams don't use it anymore
Soft kill is just inferior to Hard
Wants enemy to use right weapon
PUMA use this. MUSS
autumn sorrel
What about that PLA laser dazzle thing? Can it blind soldier for real?
manic latch
Any strong laser can blind you. Challenger's one of problems was if gunner sight is covered in mud, laser rangefinder may bounce back to Gunner's eyes and blind him
autumn sorrel
Ah, so 2 edge sword
manic latch
Ah, so 2 edge sword
Also the reason I want Soviet Szhatie in War thunder
Likely the strongest lasers mounted on a tank
Blinding players would be fun by directly looking at them 
The "tank" used an intense laser beam to disable the optical-electronic equipment of the enemy vehicles. This was created by focusing light through 30 kg of artificial rubies, which made the whole system very expensive to produce. The optics that produced the laser were placed at the end of a silver coated spiral which helped amplify the beam and increase convergence.
autumn sorrel
Why killing the enemy when you can stack up their optical complication medical bill, brilliant!
dapper parcel
optical complication medical bill for laser damage will be zero
autumn sorrel
So temporary blind only?
dapper parcel
permanent, nothing we can do about that
manic latch
@tough quail Never give me a time machine
tough quail
cursed
manic latch
Would call it
T-101 Amvrosy
autumn sorrel
But you have to change the Soviet tank doctrine as well Krem
manic latch
But you have to change the Soviet tank doctrine as well Krem
Should make a list of changes I would make
autumn sorrel
Anyone you want axe in particuliar?
frigid karma
@tough quail @spiral cedar @spring briar
manic latch
Anyone you want axe in particuliar?
BMPs
tough quail
i can't exactly recommend taking the US armor development route
manic latch
Concept is great but make it +20 tons
tough quail
given it's kind of bad up until the USSR starts running out of money
autumn sorrel
Concept is great but make it +20 tons
More armor and bigger, yes
manic latch
given it's kind of bad up until the USSR starts running out of money
Ok then uhh
Less tanks. But better
tough quail
the us had less tanks
they individually were not as good
it's a crapshoot up until the M1A1 and even that's questionable
manic latch
Yeah I mean like
What if instead 5k tanks
I build 2.5k but much better
tough quail
at least as far as MBTS go stuff like ifvs, spgs etc is more complicated
autumn sorrel
Patton, don't even know why that thing exist
manic latch
M 103
Marines are weird
Old marines: Man I love M-103 heavy tank. Let's upgrade it with M60 engine
New marines: Fuck tanks
frigid karma
autumn sorrel
Pekhota used T-55AM2, I don't know who's worse
tough quail
M103s are pretty good
manic latch
Marines didn't accepted m60s since they were expecting the Mbts 70s so still used m48 and m103 for a while
tough quail
T-10Ms are probably the best of the bunch but that's mainly just because they're less specialized
more useful as a regular tank
manic latch
When mbt 70 died only then Marines accepted m60
tough quail
if you're going fulda sniping though conq all day
frigid karma
she's a heavy tank
manic latch
Is-7: So?
frigid karma
if your doctrine requires them to be speedy, uh
didn't is-7 cost like
30 trillion rubles to produce
tough quail
T-10Ms are a good bit speedier than either of them
but they're built for different things
manic latch
30 trillion rubles to produce
Yeah...
autumn sorrel
Is-7: So?
Imagine they actually get into combat in a hot war, I really want to see the NATO commander unlucky enough to face them
manic latch
M103s were deemed too thick for Vietnam sadly
tough quail
their doctrine isnt maneuver war but instead tank firing line
frigid karma
If I can find a decent image AI i'm going to put conquerors at the tet offensive
frigid karma
their doctrine isnt maneuver war but instead tank firing line
incorrect
square formation was the standard british practice
manic latch
the last gen of heavy tanks were so fucking cool though
Object 277 as steroid T-10 ye
Then the beautiful Object 770 with casted frontal hull
tough quail
true and real
while it looks nice if anything was taught to me by US armor development cast armor is best ditched as soon as possible
its a big contributor of why the pattons mostly sucked ass
manic latch
Then the beautiful Object 770 with casted frontal hull
was cancelled in 1960 following Nikita Khrushchev's orders to stop production of all heavy tanks weighing over 37 tons
God I wish he said like
45 tons
tough quail
pensive
tough quail
standardize on the t-90 way earlier and fast track the black eagle
manic latch
IS-3: Damn we already won? Was waiting to meet with my allies
"Allies": Conqueror, FV-4005, M-103
frigid karma
Conqueror is a fair bit after IS-3, tbf
tough quail
the t-72/t-80 clusterfuck of a million mutually exclusive variants was a ballache
manic latch
standardize on the t-90 way earlier and fast track the black eagle
Single MBT or still go by 3?
Or 2?
tough quail
preferably single, maybe a hi-lo mix of funky turbines and diesels but i dont see the preeessing need for the former
autumn sorrel
So many mod
autumn sorrel
preferably single, maybe a hi-lo mix of funky turbines and diesels but i dont se...
Mobility for breakthrough unit
manic latch
the t-72/t-80 clusterfuck of a million mutually exclusive variants was a ballach...
- start a project like Kurganets-25 much earlier to replace BMP 1 and 2s
autumn sorrel
+ start a project like Kurganets-25 much earlier to replace BMP 1 and 2s
Or learning from Isreal?
tough quail
yeah the mobility is valid
autumn sorrel
Make Soviet version of Achzarit
tough quail
but yeah if you get the black eagle out the door you're set to ride out the post-collapse no money wave
since you're sitting on whats essentially a tidy light weight leclerc
autumn sorrel
MBT hull APC
I could see Kharkov engineer at work on that
tough quail
they did
manic latch
Make Soviet version of Achzarit
T-72 based APC BMO-T AKA Object 564
autumn sorrel
T-72 based APC BMO-T AKA Object 564
Why look ugly and no turret?
manic latch
You said APC
tough quail
The vehicle was first presented to Ukraine's Interior Minister Arsen Avakov in November 2015 who praised it as Ukraine's first 'innovative tank.' However, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin was less than impressed by this fearsome new weapon. "Ukraine’s military-industrial complex innovatively made a new tank out of dumpsters," he remarked on Twitter.
yeah we're thinking of namer
manic latch
IFVs have turret
autumn sorrel
```The vehicle was first presented to Ukraine's Interior Minister Arsen Avakov i...
tbf, it does look like something coming out of dumpster
tough quail
combat dumpster
manic latch
T-15. Whom is way too expensive for her own good. Being Armata hull
tough quail
the shade of green and lightning doesn't help
thorn trail
Why were the Sodak's shorter than the NorCal's?
autumn sorrel
T-15. Whom is way too expensive for her own good. Being Armata hull
Should have build on T-72 hull instead, you have plenty lying around
manic latch
NC armor is for 356mm AP. SD is 406mm
thorn trail
they have the same speed tho?
manic latch
No
thorn trail
oh wait SoDak was slightly slower by half a knot or so
manic latch
they have the same speed tho?
Ok uhh reset what I said
It's for keeping the weight same
While having better armor
So SD is smaller than NC for weight saving
While Iowa goes full length to keep SD's armor while having 33 knot speed
Yo horse
What's the name of this
Does feel Soviet alot but I know it's French
tough quail
AMX-10 P
tight notch
What's the name of this
I guess AMX-10
maiden citrus
So SD is smaller than NC for weight saving
yup, a more compact ship has less mass going to size
grave ravine
lol
runic prairie
U.S. doctrine has been to not to use tanks against tanks
Explains why they spent so much time developing APFSDS and HEAT-FS rounds. Obviously, those are anti-infantry weapons.
strong plank
73 eastings was just a massive psyop you see
tough quail
brain damage
grave ravine
The funniest thing is that typically US tanks had the same guns their contemporary TDs had in ww2
I wonder why that could be
manic latch
The funniest thing is that typically US tanks had the same guns their contempora...
Isnt that uhh
Normal
Su-85 had T-34 85's gun
Jagpanther had Tiger 88mm
Ferdinand had Tiger 88mm
Stug 4 had Panzer 4's 75mm?
wintry moat
Exactly
Sherman’s were designed to fight other tanks
They even tried to sticks 76mm in a Sherman by early 42
runic prairie
73 eastings was just a massive psyop you see
Collective hallucination caused by Gulf War Syndrome.
grave ravine
Normal
Yeah it was pretty normal for TDs to have the same guns as tanks, it just pokes a gaping hole in the idea that the US army intended only their TDs to fight tanks and not their tanks
frigid karma
Sherman’s were designed to fight other tanks
Latewar Sherman’s
grave ravine
Though I would note that the Jagdpanther and Ferdinand had the long 88 from the Tiger 2, not the 88 from the Tiger 1, I don't know of any German TDs with the 88mm gun from the Tiger 1
frigid karma
Early war U.S. tanks are walking machine gun nests not tanks
Even when the Shermans went onto the beaches of Normandy commanders preferred 75 Sherman’s for their better anti infantry capability
Even at the bulge
Where they met a shit ton of cats
And the top generals were asking for 76 Sherman’s and Pershing’s only
The commanders still preferred 75 Sherman’s
Because of the better he shells
grave ravine
Early war U.S. tanks are walking machine gun nests not tanks
The Sherman 75 entered service at the same time as this
The US was slow to adopt the 76mm because the 75mm was doing well enough
Ordinance made the 76mm Sherman, but they were left behind before D-day because it would have complicated logistics
and reports from Italy described 75mm Shermans knocking out the big cats, but the difficulty they had doing so was not passed up the chain
The 75mm gun was still perfectly capable of killing most german tanks they encountered anyways
And even with the earlier tanks, they still had a 37mm for the AT role
like yeah they were kinda obsessed with MGs, but a 37mm was standard for AT roles in the late 30s
runic prairie
@manic latch
I’ve heard rumors that the Tu-160 can carry or is planned to carry the Kh-47 Khinzal. I don’t know the dimensions of their weapons bays but supposedly it would be on two four-missile rotary launchers.
Have you heard any details about that sort of thing?
subtle prawn
On 24 April 1944, Australian troops capture Madang, New Guinea, thus ending the Huon Peninsula Campaign.
After the Australian 7th Division defeated them at Shaggy Ridge, which we covered on 25 January, the Japanese 78th Infantry Regiment began a retreat from the Finisterre Mountains towards Madang. Simultaneously, the Japanese 51st Division began their treacherous trek from Finschafen to avoid being cut off by the US landings at Saidor.
The Australian 7th Division was finally relieved by the 11th Division in mid-February, and the 15th Infantry Brigades' 57th/60th and 58th/59th Battalions, took over as forward patrol and pursuit elements.
Japanese rearguard forces clashed several times with the Australians advancing towards Madang via the Mindjim River in late February and March. At the same time, elements of the US 32nd Infantry Division advanced east from Saidor.
On 13 April, Australian troops broke through stiff Japanese resistance and took Bogadjim.
Several days later, the 57th/60th and 58th/59th Battalions' patrols discovered new Japanese positions in and around Alibu, Rereo, Wenga, Redu, and Kaliko. But a 22 April patrol discovered large amounts of supplies left there by the hasty Japanese retreat. Brigadier Heathcote Hammer, commander of the 15th Infantry Brigade, thus pushed his forces to reach Madang before the Australian 5th Division landed there amphibiously.
Today, 24 April, the 57th/60th and 58th/59th Battalions reach the fast and crocodile-infested Gogol River but decide to push to the coast, link up with US Navy patrol boats, and circumvent the river. However, the 5th Division beats them there by landing just 6.5 km (4.0 mi) south of Madang aboard US landing craft.
As the day passes, 5th Division and 15th Brigade troops filter into the empty Madang. They encounter a small group of Japanese stragglers, who scatter upon being sighted, and some wildly inaccurate Japanese artillery.
By 30 April, the Australian forces will reach and capture the vital deep-water port of Alexishafen.
Picture: Australian troops from the 8th Infantry Brigade land at Madang aboard US landing craft, 24 April 1944
Source: AWM 072297
Map: Wikimedia Commons
manic latch
<@688903088819404825>
I’ve heard rumors that the Tu-160 can carry or is planned...
Never heard of it. Future plans for her weaponry was
Kh-555 who is a deep upgrade modification of the Kh-55
And KH-101 who she already were using
manic latch
Never heard of it. Future plans for her weaponry was
Kh-555 who is a deep upgr...
Ok for Kinzhal there were considerations for the new Tu-160M2 upgrade it seems
But no full decision yet
tough quail
Su-85 had T-34 85's gun
su-85s predate t-34-85s
manic latch
su-85s predate t-34-85s
Ye
tough quail
and were replaced by su-100s as soon as t-34-85s exist
soviet casemates were used to one up whatever they could fit on tanks
manic latch
It's easier and cheaper to build a TD than turret
subtle sandal
https://twitter.com/vodk_anon/status/1650178304425566208
They basically made the F35
runic prairie
Never heard of it. Future plans for her weaponry was
Kh-555 who is a deep upgr...
Thanks
runic prairie
Beauty and the sadistic psycho
“a young second lieutenant, a backfire Wso fresh from the air college, asked the senior navigator of the regiment, an old major: ‘sir, tell me why we have a detailed flight plan to the target over the vast ocean, but only a rough dot-and-dash line across Hokkaido Island on way back?’ ‘son,’ answered the major calmly, ‘if your crew manages to get the plane back out of the sky over the carrier by any means, on half a wing broken by a Phoenix and a screaming prayer, no matter whether it’s somewhere over Hokkaido or directly through the moon, it’ll be the greatest possible thing in your entire life!”
tough quail
backfire my beloved
runic prairie
The Outer Air Battle never had a greater aesthetic than in the mid 80s.
tough quail
yeap
tough quail
based
spring briar
Shipgirl with main guns that actually look like her guns irl
strong plank
this confuses the manjuu artist
maiden citrus
unclear: drew 5''/380
vestal arch
Did enterprise only have the EN pre war ?
desert agate
Dawn service
The tree on the right is a descendant of the original Lone Pine from the titular battle at Gallipoli
manic latch
subtle prawn
eternal veldt
@alpine onyx any source for this memo?
As far as the poor seakeeping, Bismarck along with other German ships tended by be excessively wet forward, as this memo from German Naval High Command (about Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) explains:
“… The sea keeping qualities of the vessels have to improve significantly. After preliminary examination even with the latest additions (battleships type ‘Bismarck’ and destroyer 36a) there are doubts if an improvement has been achieved already.“
desert agate
They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;
They fell with their faces to the foe.
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them
Lest we forget
gilded girder
the old SS lines are even *more* extensive than modern lines
Would be a pain in the arse to reactivate tho
They need to be wider
Waaay wider
Also chances are you'd see some of them in stations still active now, some of the maintenance rails have yet to be upgraded 
gilded girder
I suppose modern train usage is quite different as well.
To link major destinations as Todd said, not all of the older stations are used (some of them are only like...5km apart from eachother). However, they're planning on revitalizing some more routes in the coming decade (reactivation of the Aceh line, East Javan double-track project, Surabaya's SRRL, etc) to mitigate congestions, especially those caused by holiday traffic 
frigid karma
are these pics from your time in turkey?
desert agate
the first 3 are in Villers Brettoneux, the second 3 are Gallipoli
alpine onyx
<@285676892290285569> any source for this memo?
>>> As far as the poor seakeepi...
Haven't seen that particular memeo
I'll keep my eyes peeled
wary osprey
They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of e...
Forever even in our final breaths their deeds shall not be forgotten
zealous vine
Did subs even have rangefinders for their deck gun/s?
spiral cedar
Does Surcouf count? She had a rangefinder that was longer than KGV’s main one
desert agate
didnt some have mounting points on the sail to put one on?
dapper parcel
You can do stadimetric rangefinding with the binoculars or periscope
I don't think any "standard" submarines fit actual rangefinder, they barely even fitting gunsight on the deck gun
grave ravine
Many submarines were fitted with coincidence/stereoscopic rangefinder setups with their periscopes, and later in WW2 US submarines would get radars that could rangefind, which can presumably give a decent estimate of the range to the crew manning the guns
tough quail
grave ravine
Surcouf is noted specifically to get her fire control solution from the periscopes, with them having normal submarine range finding periscopes, but most other submarines would not have had director control, so any range finding etc done by the bridge crew would have to be relayed verbally to the gun crews
Generally submarine deck guns would not have been terribly useful at ranges that would have required serious range finding though, given the lack of any real FCS
grave ravine
Surcouf was just a big exception
I know Surcouf had issues where her guns outranged her rangefinders, since periscope rangefinders don't have a massive base
spring briar
That’s pretty normal yeah
grave ravine
Still way better than any other submarine by virtue of having director fire and rudimentary stabilization
delicate beacon
quick shard
is a sub like a aquatic tank but shoots torpedo projectiles instead?
desert agate
what
thorny cobalt
maiden citrus
is a tank like a metal horse that eats compressed plants from hundreds of millions of years ago instead of modern compressed plants
sorry, that was a strange thing to ask
gilded girder
is a tank like a metal horse that eats compressed plants from hundreds of millio...
If tanks are mammals, does that validate me drawing them with huge badonkers 
I mean what?
thorny cobalt
dusty kraken
if tanks are mammals that implies that it gives birth
zealous vine
Still way better than any other submarine by virtue of having director fire and ...
Amazing
Thanks for the replies y'all
eternal veldt
Turtleback, except this time you can see it
thorny patio
Surcouf was just a big exception
I don't know what the original conversation was but i see someone mention Surcouf and i feel like talking about her more!
So let me get this straight and correct me if I'm wrong... Surcouf was a French "Submarine" armed with... A cruiser-sized main gun???
Whenever me and my friend - who's also big into naval history - bring this ship up, my first question is "what happens with the guns whenever she wants to submerge?"
I mean... That's not the ONLY question and certainly not the most important, but it's the first question that pops into my head
gilded girder
I don't know what the original conversation was but i see someone mention Surcou...
Basically what happens with every other sub guns, no?
They just...do
spring briar
I don't know what the original conversation was but i see someone mention Surcou...
The guns are fitted with “lids” that close on the muzzles to make the barrels water tight.
thorny patio
Okay, and that makes sense
spring briar
The entire gun assembly is in a water tight T shaped container
manic latch
Okay, and that makes sense
thorny patio
Was underwater pressure ever a concern for sub guns?
manic latch
British M class had 305mm
spring briar
You’d need to go extremely deep for anything to start getting crushed
There’s plenty of DD’s and such at depths of like 10 km and their guns are fine
Just wet and rust is an issue
thorny patio
How big was Surcoufs main canon exactly?
manic latch
Twin 203mm
thorny patio
Ah
I'm going to reread her Wikipedia page since it's been a long while, i feel like im misunderstanding her significance
manic latch
People also misunderstand me alot
thorny patio
Lol
Okay so, yeah apparently the Surcouf was unique in that those 203mm twin guns were considered HEAVY CRUISER guns... And to me that's wild
XD
gilded girder
What makes a cruiser
A heavy cruiser
In the first place
Certainly not just guns, no?
spring briar
France simply built her because of a loophole in the naval treaties that said that all warships that werent capital ships or aircraft carriers were limited to 10000 tons and have 8 inch guns or smaller.
thorny patio
Mhm
spring briar
So france did the gamer move
And built an 8 inch gun armed sub
Her purpose was just coastal defence, colonial cruising and harassing enemy merchants
thorny patio
She had some AA too I'm reading
thorny patio
Probably more than what most subs had if they had any at all
gilded girder
So not much
Bout the average for subs tbf
thorny patio
Ah
delicate beacon
Certainly not just guns, no?
Nope. Just the guns.
manic latch
Nope. Just the guns.
Do you call Kirovs heavy?
delicate beacon
Exeter is a heavy cruiser and Cleveland a light.
delicate beacon
Do you call Kirovs heavy?
There's official definition and common definition.
manic latch
ivory ridge
Do you call Kirovs heavy?
dapper parcel
If anyone didn't already pick it up, notice the ball joint sealing
delicate beacon
Officially 95% of all "heavy cruisers" are "capital ships".
manic latch
<:Yes:749142652670443540>
delicate beacon
But heavy/light just has to do with the calibre limit of the main battery. You get stuff like the Exeter and Worcester where the former is a heavy cruiser despite the latter being way heavier.
thorny patio
Then there's ships like the Deutschland lol
dapper parcel
I'm not sure which one came first between Japanese 155mm gun or Light cruiser 155mm limit
spring briar
If anyone didn't already pick it up, notice the ball joint sealing
French engineering in 1929
eternal veldt
Then there's ships like the *Deutschland* lol
Germany was not a signatory of WNT/LNT anyway.
spring briar
France violating the treaties so hard with richie, jb and Strasbourg building at the same time
manic latch
I'm not sure which one came first between Japanese 155mm gun or Light cruiser 15...
I think rule of 155mm came first. Then Japan made it 155mm to have maximize power they can get from it
eternal veldt
Eh, wasn't Dunk allowed after the loss of France?
manic latch
Was it Littorios that Italy had allowance to finish
delicate beacon
thorn trail
what BBs had the largest secondaries? Post-Dreadnought that is
thorny patio
DAMN
eternal veldt
Wasn't whatever that Atlantico thing that had er...254mm secbat?
delicate beacon
what BBs had the largest secondaries? Post-Dreadnought that is
I think some USN BBs had 7"
delicate beacon
what BBs had the largest secondaries? Post-Dreadnought that is
Do we count Satsuma? 
thorny patio
are we also counting BBS that were scrapped before finished?
delicate beacon
Also some German battlecruisers had 17cm I think
eternal veldt
Right, Vickers 686, though I guess not built
dapper parcel
I think rule of 155mm came first. Then Japan made it 155mm to have maximize powe...
It was 1930 design, so it could be either way
Is there any record on which delegation propose the limits? 
eternal veldt
Satsuma as WoWS depicted it is very questionable, tbf
thorn trail
Do we count Satsuma? <:naroSmug:814620531688472586>
Uh isn't that a semi-dread?
dapper parcel
On earlier pre-dreadnoughts the larger gun were effectively the secondaries anyway
thorn trail
I think some USN BBs had 7"
wait some USN BBs had 7in?
eternal veldt
oh, that one.
Satsuma is a semi-dreadnought, yea.
But if we go that way, might as well count Kawachi since her calibers aren't uniform either.
thorn trail
yeah I'm more asking what dreadnought type BB had the largest secondaries
max i see was around 155mm
thorny patio
Speaking of the dreadnought class:
This is going to sound stupid but we all agree that Mikasa is NOT a dreadnought?
delicate beacon
wait some USN BBs had 7in?
Nvm it were the predreads
thorny patio
Someone in general
eternal veldt
The Virginias had 8" on top of their 12" IIRC
which doesn't work
Mikasa was quite literally built before Dreadnought, before the age of "all big guns"
thorn trail
Someone in general
Someone also said that the game "only" has 4 dreadnoughts
eternal veldt
and general is just brainrot, low bar
thorn trail
when technically all the battleships spare Mikasa are dreadnoughts
thorny patio
They off handedly put her in a list of ships in AL that compare to the dreadnought class
thorn trail
The Virginias had 8" on top of their 12" IIRC
I know about the Virginias but was more wondering if any dreadnought ship had more than 155mm of secondaries
the largest I've seen is 155mm
delicate beacon
And the 17cms were Deutschlands
eternal veldt
On the quick glance, only Thueringen fits the strict definition of "Dreadnought"
because if we're arguing specifically, anything above 12" as main armament are "Super-dreadnoughts" i.e. Starting from the Orion-class
eternal veldt
I know about the Virginias but was more wondering if any dreadnought ship had mo...
Again, I've posted Vickers 686, an unbuilt design
thorn trail
the oldest super dread is QE right
eternal veldt
They're the largest I can think of
manic latch
It was 1930 design, so it could be either way
Is there any record on which deleg...
Should ask a IJN expert in Wows server let's see
eternal veldt
If not that, it's A-150's greater ones
thorn trail
Who designed this?
delicate beacon
QE is more of a super super dread
thorn trail
Britain?
delicate beacon
Superdreads had 13,5" or more
eternal veldt
Come on, "Vickers"
thorny patio
For context: i had openly asked "why isn't the HMS dreadnought im AL" and in response this one user listed a bunch of ships either built using dread as a base, similar in design... And then for some reason threw in mikasa
spring briar
Eh, wasn't Dunk allowed after the loss of France?
Yeah but stras, richie and JB aren’t dunk
eternal veldt
Still part of the 175,000 tons allocated to France, no?
thorn trail
Sounds Japanese
Well maybe a different nation ordered plans from Vickers
eternal veldt
Clemenceau and Gascogne is really where France is going "fuck the treaty" and "how the fuck is Littorio 35k tons?"
thorn trail
Also my brain is currently on brain rot from reading some weird ass fanfics so
eternal veldt
It's for South America
manic latch
Well maybe a different nation ordered plans from Vickers
So it's still Vicker designing it
eternal veldt
Brazil, specifically
dapper parcel
South american arms race was peak noncredibility
eternal veldt
For context: i had openly asked "why isn't the HMS dreadnought im AL" and in res...
Well, maybe Dreadnought should start paying credit to Vittorio Cuniberti then, because the Royal Navy wasn't the first to propose all-big gun designs
delicate beacon
Dutch have been doing it before it was cool. 
eternal veldt
But really, most ship designs are incremental improvements/enlargements over the previous ones, unless something foreign is dangerous enough that entire new designs are required
See: Dunkerque, Algerie
the QE's 15"/42 was even referred as the "Special 13.5" to preserve secrecy
Shhh don't tell Japan that
spring briar
Still part of the 175,000 tons allocated to France, no?
France had a 70k ton limit for new construction
spring briar
Yes
thorny patio
She's fun
thorny patio
Her secondaries are hilariously good
thorn trail
I wonder. If you were asked to draw up a modern day version of the interwar naval treaties, how would you do it?
thorny patio
My whole play style with her is legit "BANZAAAAI!!!"
thorn trail
Like how would you make limits
grave ravine
On the quick glance, only Thueringen fits the strict definition of "Dreadnought"
There is also Gangut
thorny patio
i.e: running straight into 3km close quarters combat
thorn trail
I wonder. If you were asked to draw up a modern day version of the interwar nava...
I'm curious how you guys would define things and put limits
spring briar
Right, forgot about that
70k tons is so hilariously little
grave ravine
And the Conte di Cavour was originally a dreadnaught, though she was kinda rebuilt into some low quality fast battleship
eternal veldt
Especially the three nations that were assigned the 3:1:1 ratio
dapper parcel
I wonder. If you were asked to draw up a modern day version of the interwar nava...
I don't think it'll even work past limiting the usage of certain easily obvious tech
Now that there are a lot more alternatives to do the same job
eternal veldt
I wouldn't argue Conte di Cavour as low quality
thorny patio
Wasn't a big ulterior motive for the WNT and LNT to bully nations like Japan and other non-great powers?
manic latch
There is also Gangut
thorn trail
Yeah there was definitely that
eternal veldt
The main problem is that the Italian capital fleet at that time was not as modernized as the other navies, and Italy had no reason to do so, seeing that France was still fielding Courbets and Bretagnes
Then came Dukerque and Italy basically just got quite annoyed
thorn trail
My question was more of the "Hey we have to define the ships and put max limit on specific classes of ships" and how you guys would define and put limits on specific hull types
spring briar
I wouldn't argue Conte di Cavour as low quality
Dreadnought with upgraded artillery and slight armor updates
grave ravine
I wouldn't argue Conte di Cavour as low quality
I'm not saying that the Italians did a poor job in their modernization program, but just that base ship was so bad it didn't really turn out well
spring briar
The base ship was pretty good
grave ravine
Given the expense they put into it
eternal veldt
The Conte Di Cavours are very successful remodernisations, to be honest
manic latch
Her problem was the belt armor
eternal veldt
in fact, it should be called reconstruction if anything
manic latch
Yeah cost was very high
grave ravine
They would have probably been better off replacing them
grave ravine
New build ships
eternal veldt
The Cavours were a good response in light of the political situation
dapper parcel
laughs in Kongo
eternal veldt
The Duilios, less so, with their rebuilding costs approaching nearly the same of that of a Littorio.
Again, keep in mind, France only announced one new ship, and that is Dunkerque
The entire Italian BB inventory at that time are quite literally the unmodernized Cavours, Duilios, and the Dante Aligheri
grave ravine
The Duilios, less so, with their rebuilding costs approaching nearly the same of...
Ah wait I was confusing Cavour costs with Duilio
eternal veldt
Duilio is a bit more skeptical, but had a very practical reason
modernising the Duilios allowed two homogenous divisions to be created, while the Littorios are being constructed
Rather than literally being useless
grave ravine
Again, keep in mind, France only announced one new ship, and that is Dunkerque
I mean Italy was also concerned about the British Mediterranean fleet
eternal veldt
France was the major rivalry first and foremost
grave ravine
*laughs in Kongo*
The Kongos weren't nearly as expensive to modernize given they were already fast enough for Japan's needs
eternal veldt
IIRC it wasn't until the episode of Abyssinia that Britain became more alarming
manic latch
The Duilios, less so, with their rebuilding costs approaching nearly the same of...
Yeah I find Dulio's refit scale similar to Gangut class Frunze reconstruction proposal 
thorn trail
hold on
dapper parcel
The Kongos weren't nearly as expensive to modernize given they were already fast...
They still strip them down to the keel and replace the entire machinery
eternal veldt
Especially with the sanctions imposed on Italy
thorn trail
can you just slap more armor to a BB?
grave ravine
IIRC it wasn't until the episode of Abyssinia that Britain became more alarming
Duilio reconstruction happened after that though
thorn trail
like how tanks get more armor by slapping ERA?
eternal veldt
That's the problem
manic latch
can you just slap more armor to a BB?
Usually done on decks and turret
thorn trail
Usually done on decks and turret
but not the belt armor right?
eternal veldt
The sanctions basically slowed down the first two Littorio's construction due to material shortage
manic latch
but not the belt armor right?
Torpedo belt usually but not a new belt as I know
eternal veldt
The aim was to harmonise the characteristics with those of the earlier two in order to create a homogeneous division of four ships. Otherwise the two unmodernised ‘Duilios’, whose combat value was almost zero, would have found it impossible to operate with the ‘Cavour’ and ‘Littorio’ classes because of the differences in armament, speed and protection. In February 1936 the Ship Design Committee, in association with CNT and CRDA, began work on transforming the two ‘Duilios’, using the ‘Cavour’ scheme as a model, but improving it in light of experience gained in the construction of the two ‘Littorios’. The biggest innovations related to anti-torpedo armament (135mm [5.3in] guns instead of 120mm) and anti-aircraft (90mm instead of 100mm) guns, arrangement of fire control systems, which would be similar to those of the ‘Littorio’, as well as the forward portion of the hull, which would be properly rebuilt rather than just being superimposed on the old structure. The radical modernisation of the two ‘Duilios’ was, finally, decided upon in early 1937 and the two ships constituted the 1937/ 1938 programme, which will be addressed later.
thorn trail
Torpedo belt usually but not a new belt as I know
is it because the belt is built right into the hull?
eternal veldt
Granted though, in hindsight, the Duilios were not as "cost-effective" compared to the Cavour
and IIRC Duilio only rejoined the fleet in 1940 after work-up
Still, Cavour was successful, and you have two useless hulks sitting at port that you can basically do nothing with except rot away, unless you decide to scrap it
and considering that naval arms race at that time is heating up, I doubt scrapping the both of them would look favourably.
ivory ridge
both duilios were completed after the littorios
dapper parcel
can you just slap more armor to a BB?
Not without extensive refit
Otherwise you'd get Infanta Maria Teresa-class comedy all over again
eternal veldt
Removing an armour belt is possible, but yea, haven't heard of a case of uparmouring the belt
thorn trail
Not without extensive refit
Otherwise you'd get *Infanta Maria Teresa*-class com...
what's notable about that ship
ivory ridge
it's April and may for the Littorios and July and October 1940s for the Duilios
eternal veldt
However, horizontal protection was often the case
dapper parcel
what's notable about that ship
Slap belt so thick it ends up underwater
spring briar
eternal veldt
it's April and may for the Littorios and July and October 1940s for the Duilios
tfw Ansaldo rushes work on Littorio and causes problems later onwards
ivory ridge
<:BuckyPrideZoom:911042553221107714>
la creatura
manic latch
dapper parcel
Superfiring and en-echelon
What a design
eternal veldt
Must be fun for fire control
ivory ridge
raised bow 
manic latch
raised bow <a:MurmSpin:1068602948038434836>
Izmail: Good
thorn trail
hold on why are some of the guns offset from center and not even mirrored like the wing turrets of earlier dreads
ivory ridge
but is that better or whose than this thing
thorn trail
but is that better or whose than this thing
what's the gun caliber?
ivory ridge
305
grave ravine
hold on why are some of the guns offset from center and not even mirrored like ...
A lot of ships did that in the hopes of getting some cross deck fire with the wing turrets
dapper parcel
hold on why are some of the guns offset from center and not even mirrored like ...
The idea of en-echelon arrangement was to fire both ways across the deck
manic latch
but is that better or whose than this thing
Better. First design has 5 gun broadside
thorn trail
I should try making the one that Unde sent but with 16in guns in UAD
manic latch
Izmail 
eternal veldt
Superfiring wasn't quite popular until later IIRC
grave ravine
hold on why are some of the guns offset from center and not even mirrored like ...
Just to be clear, cross deck fire with wing turrets didn't really work
eternal veldt
except the US, started right off the bat with South Carolina
ivory ridge
the first 2 and the last are all part of the same series of designs for Russia
manic latch
eternal veldt
Bubnov's armour scheme gives me headache though
manic latch
Ah the mighty Bubnov
grave ravine
except the US, started right off the bat with South Carolina
Congress seriously tonnage limited the navy, so they had to get creative
ivory ridge
manic latch
Second one perfect
dapper parcel
I'd take third one
just for shit and giggles
grave ravine
Third one be like where superstructure
eternal veldt
Congress seriously tonnage limited the navy, so they had to get creative
All the reason to enjoy the standards
manic latch
Cancer
spring briar
but is that better or whose than this thing
Both are pretty bad
ivory ridge
the third one is the one that inspired the cursed Richelieu project 5 and 5 bis
spring briar
But yours is worse
ivory ridge
manic latch
Bubnov
ivory ridge
But yours is worse
spring briar
manic latch
spring briar
This one looks rather nice
spring briar
?
manic latch
Paperwork
manic latch
Krem what are you doing
Look Richy
We are like Pygmalion here
We love the idea of our favorite battleships, but we don't know much about the actual, it's a no-win situation. But unlike the myth where fantasy makes the win, we don't have a goddess to create our needs
manic latch
Hey guys look at this cool ship lol
Everyone here likely saw Tillmans at least 2 times
grave ravine
Everyone here likely saw Tillmans at least 2 times
Yeah IK, still think they are funny
spring briar
Look Richy
We are like Pygmalion here
We love the idea of our favorite battleshi...
What the fuck are you talking about
manic latch
What the fuck are you talking about
A bachelor existence, we find no modern warships equal to our ideal ones except those existed or tried to exist long ago
We love the ideal/historical but we hate the actual
Unlike the myth however our snowy ivory state doesn't have a goddess to make it real
thorn trail
Isn't Pygmalion the guy who fell in love with his statue who he named Galatea
manic latch
Yes
manic latch
Statute was his ideal women but wasn't alive
thorn trail
what the fuck are yall talking about
greek mythology
manic latch
And it's relation to our situation
spring briar
A bachelor existence, we find no modern warships equal to our ideal ones except ...
Wdym
Strasbourg exists
eternal veldt
Hey guys look at this cool ship lol
Broke: Tillmans with massive amount of guns
Woke: Proposal BBs with conning tower embedded into Turret II
spring briar
manic latch
Strasbourg exists
Where is she
spring briar
In our hearts
manic latch
spring briar
That’s what you need to understand krem
delicate beacon
What possible advantage does the offset offer?
Better firing angles.
spring briar
In your dreams maybe
delicate beacon
When in doubt.
spring briar
delicate beacon
The best Oceangoing monitor for small countries that can't afford dreadnoughts.
spring briar
Sang
It’s time you actually add a superstructure to it and such
Make it look like an actual ship
manic latch
<:Lexi:1064234145024323614>
Fren
runic prairie
When in doubt.
When you forget your meds
manic latch
I own it
dusty kraken
The Leopard belongs to the people
manic latch
The Leopard belongs to the people
thorny cobalt
Something something Soviet chanting
tough quail
you can do it little guys
manic latch
remote monolith
friends, foes, countrymen
it is with the utmost regret that I announce
the 1944 Germany vs 1991 America thread has been deleted
frigid karma
the 1944 Germany vs 1991 America thread has been deleted
WHAT
Has someone archived it
It has to be on wayback machine
remote monolith
I don't know if there's an archive, but its gone from sufficientvelocity
frigid karma
This is a dark day for mankind
remote monolith
ivory ridge
if you want to hate youself for a bit then read the comments in this thread
https://twitter.com/GarandThumb1/status/1650658076096348160
Twitter
god i hate the internet
tough quail
i think i would rather actually swan dive into a wood chipper
frigid karma
Twitter under Elon musk
What a surprise
TFW you find less brain dead takes on 4chan these days
grim ginkgo
Good ol invincible cat
delicate beacon
if you want to hate youself for a bit then read the comments in this thread
http...
Me: Why are these comments so American centred...
*checks OP*
Nevermind.
desert agate
Good ol invincible cat
this story has been determined to be at the very least likely false
grim ginkgo
this story has been determined to be at the very least likely false
Good to know, thanks
desert agate
as far as im aware, no record exists of a cat being rescued from Bismarck, and it was highly unlikely that such a thing would have happened given that British ships were ordered to avoid rescuing survivors due the presence of u-boats in the area
desert agate
it would be highly unlikely for a warship that was already ordered to avoid stopping to stop and pick up a cat, and then that go unrecorded
frigid karma
it would be highly unlikely for a warship that was already ordered to avoid stop...
they were picking up survivors, why not a cat that went unrecorded?
dusty kraken
An important piece of history has been lost, how could they do this 
runic prairie
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/between-armys-america-circa-1991-v...
Thanks
runic prairie
Wayback is down atm
desert agate
they were picking up survivors, why not a cat that went unrecorded?
a very large number of crewmen survived the sinking of Bismarck itself, however very few of those men were rescued due to the u-boat threat
runic prairie
https://web.archive.org/web/20161022000135/https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com...
Bless
manic latch
@shrewd pecan I finally remember the closest TOS-1 equal of US. It was SLUFAE
She had 30 345mm 45kg Thermobaric rockets.
Unlike TOS however, this girl was designed as minefield clearing. But problem was she only had 700m range, and had problems on clearing mines on a wider level or frozen soil
desert agate
there was no concerted effort to rescue survivors of Bismarck, and this, alongside the lack of any documentation points to the story being untrue
frigid karma
god
Initially, taking out MBT would require mines, heavy artillery, air attack, or a large volume of AT fire. For example, if you could get say two 88s and two 40mm to open fire on a MBT more or less simultaneously, the rapid fire of the 88s could allow piercing through the armor after repeated hits, especially given the limited multiple hit capacity of the best part of the armor. The 40mm can hopefully damage vulnerable exposed sections such as treads, sensors, and maybe even the weapons like machine guns or the actual main gun, limiting its ability to respond.
WT brain rot