history

[spring briar]

Leave him be

[desert agate]

Hamel or smth idk

[autumn sorrel]

Nothing really, they kinda run out of gun and stuff that I am interested in

[desert agate]

obviously the UK didnt get involved for riches

[autumn sorrel]

Need to curb Germany Naval and colonial ambition

[delicate beacon]

No doomposting. Kruiserposting

[autumn sorrel]

And letting one major power in the mainland Europe is a no no for Brit

[desert agate]

but it would be quite silly to say that all the money from the middle eastern oil that just happened to find itself under the union jack went nowhere

[alpine onyx]

[spring briar]

I totally agree with the pointless deaths brought on by the war
But to say that nothing was gained from it is just… no

[autumn sorrel]

They sure have a lot of stuff to pay for

[alpine onyx]

No war, no pointless killing

[spring briar]

Go doompost somewhere else

[alpine onyx]

Peace for life

[delicate beacon]

But peace wont give you 355mm Tripleturm

[desert agate]

for what did the sons of Australia die other than some silliness like 'king and country'

[autumn sorrel]

Does it? Peace is just a pause between war, it make us forget about its horror and then redo the same mistake again and again.

[desert agate]

the Ottomans exist

[desert agate]

what did Australia gain?

a few islands in the Pacific?

[delicate beacon]

A few medals

[alpine onyx]

Eh, Central Europe got fairly decent at not murdering the neighbors

[spring briar]

My man your sons of Australia
Why did the people of Belgium have to die?
We were just used as a bridge
But guess what we fucking took up our guns and stopped them

[delicate beacon]

Britain and not killing other peoples countrymen for medals.

[alpine onyx]

So I'd say that peace can get us far

[delicate beacon]

Challenge: impossible

[desert agate]

WW1 was utterly pointless and Australia had no right to be forced to send a generation to die in the trenches of a foreign country

[delicate beacon]

Limbrug

[autumn sorrel]

Oh boy, you forget a lot of bad blood still exist

[alpine onyx]

Some grievances are not comparable to the wars of the past

[desert agate]

the Belgians fought for their country

[autumn sorrel]

Belgium isn't real?

[delicate beacon]

Sadly it is.

[desert agate]

Australia fought for a king who sent them into a meat grinder

[humble mulch]

What the fuck are you guys arguing about

[delicate beacon]

Nothing

we're just doomposting

[autumn sorrel]

Spon is doomposting

[deep apex]

Someone be doom posting

[delicate beacon]

Tea how do you fit catapults

[remote monolith]

good lord I went for a bath and y'all are raving about which countries suffered the most ever?

[delicate beacon]

I need houston blueprints

[spring briar]

Shellposting time

[delicate beacon]

or some other cruisers with side catapults

[alpine onyx]

I have San Francisco

[desert agate]

oh woe is me sorry for being a bit fucking emotional about the pointless deaths of my ancestors

[delicate beacon]

[humble mulch]

Tone had 2 side ones

[spring briar]

You know back in the bronze age, a german farmer could go fight in the army of a Hittite king
And be remembered

[delicate beacon]

Gib blueprints

[alpine onyx]

I'm looking

[remote monolith]

wait, bronze age? I thought by that point Western and Central Europe had little to do with written history, more so during the Hittite's heydays

[autumn sorrel]

What was that huge gap the middle of Jap CA? Keep seeing them in my game but I don't know what it house

[deep apex]

Seaplane stuff

[remote monolith]

like, we know so vanishingly little about bronze age Europe

anyway, yeah Rome is overdone, but still https://youtu.be/cMygigvSz0w

[humble mulch]

Probably cause those cultures where erased at some point

[frigid karma]

as we should

[autumn sorrel]

We know that there are merc hire all across Europe at the time, they provide escort for the caravan and sometime fight so far away from the homeland

[spring briar]

Well through the Baltic-Alpine-Greek-Hittite trade nodes a German dude could be recruited or simply travel for money
And then once he has the money, settle down somewhere in Germany with a wife from Cyprus

Like

The world has been multiethnic since forever

This also means you are all my bros

[remote monolith]

and because most bronze age Europe cultures were, to put it lightly, illiterate since they hadn't developed both advanced state-making and their own form of written scripts

[autumn sorrel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7jAoOLMmFo

[remote monolith]

fair

[spring briar]

Dan Davis

Is so good

[alpine onyx]

@delicate beacon http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/CA38/BOGP/

[autumn sorrel]

He is, I like listen to him while doing chore

[spring briar]

BOG P

[deep apex]

Then there's me with Native American interest

[humble mulch]

Yeah, that’s one of the more notable things with Europe in general

[spring briar]

Native americans are very interesting too

[autumn sorrel]

Wait, why there are 2 Spoon? Who the real Spoon?

[deep apex]

Me

[spring briar]

Sirene is my niece

[delicate beacon]

Ah shit

This has non unit propulsion

[spring briar]

Unit propulsion is 🥖

[maiden citrus]

[spring briar]

Maka

[delicate beacon]

That's a cute emote Maka

[spring briar]

[delicate beacon]

[spring briar]

[maiden citrus]

it's a new one, thankies, and hellows

[delicate beacon]

So I need French catapults

[alpine onyx]

Wait what am I?

[spring briar]

Yes

[delicate beacon]

The weird uncle that reeks of alcohhol diesel.

[spring briar]

[alpine onyx]

[deep apex]

As someone who uses alcohol to clean

It fuckin shtank

[desert agate]

Alcohol is tasty

[desert agate]

[deep apex]

I refuse to drink

[alpine onyx]

Means more for me

[delicate beacon]

Indianapolis seems to have a compatible layout

[desert agate]

Cool I'll take the whiskey

[spring briar]

Manjub pls

[delicate beacon]

I need to bring the funnel closer fore

But my Dutch style bridge

[spring briar]

Waddenzee

[alpine onyx]

Where Schlesien

[delicate beacon]

Busy shooting at Soyuz to undo her rivets.

[spring briar]

[spring briar]

[alpine onyx]

Schlesien in Baltic dress

[spring briar]

Sirene in ballroom dress

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/혼파망-피자-당황-community-chaos-gif-16635574

[delicate beacon]

Maybe I should go for a P1047 layout

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axTEcVPFJbY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKXv5eQSj_k

[subtle prawn]

https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/sea-air-space-2023/2023/04/lockheed-martin-developing-new-larger-vls-for-ddgx/

[manic latch]

Maybe as answer to Type-55's gigantic humongous vls

[runic prairie]

“But as part of being able to do a larger diameter missile, you could say take an eight-cell Mk.41 out, put what would be a four-cell with an exhaust on it. But those four cells would be able to handle quad packs of traditional missile canister-sized, or potentially larger missiles that will be coming in the future. So that’s part of one of the things we’re investing in that will help us maximize what you can do from your loadout perspectives and potentially even increase. Because if you think about it, with a four-cell quad pack that’s sixteen and more than the eight that were originally there, just because we changed the structure.”

More dakka

[runic prairie]

It’s significantly larger, at least around a meter across, though probably about the same length.

I realize it would have to be about 1.27 meters across, given that a MK-41 canister is 0.63 meters across.

Chinese GJB 5860-2006 is 0.85 meters across and has restrictions due to concentric venting architecture.

We’re getting close to Polaris Missile sizes there.

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1646936691586809857

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD 1943, U.S. Naval Intelligence decrypted a message that revealed the travel schedule for ADM Isoroku Yamamoto, commander-in-chief of the Combined Fleet. Four days later, P-38s flew 600 miles and shot down the plane carrying the man who had planned the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Likes

267

Twitter · Apr 14, 2023, 6:01 PM

[manic latch]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/planning-for-dismantling-uss-nimitz-has-begun

[thorn trail]

Were there any plans to make Catamaran hull capital ships?

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1646917281107042309

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

It's #NationalDolphinDay! Dolphins will often ride the bow wave of a vessel, as seen here when USS John Warner was conducting sea trials in 2015. Dolphins surf bow waves to go faster and farther with less effort. Being playful and curious animals, they may also do it for fun.

Likes

213

▶ Play video

Twitter · Apr 14, 2023, 4:44 PM

[frigid karma]

https://tenor.com/view/themercslaughing-gif-20727637

[sullen canyon]

Yeah, naval combat isn't like that

[remote monolith]

that's why the warrior class as a relevant cultural and political entity survived into the 20th century unmolested amirite? Oh wait they were considered outdated and completely displaced by citizen soldiers in vast parts of the world, whoops

[subtle prawn]

Yeah and fair fights are for suckers

[sullen canyon]

That's like saying we're doing a live ammo combat exercise to see who can sink whom faster

[subtle prawn]

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/04/netherlands-selects-tomahawk-to-arm-frigate-and-submarines/

[frigid karma]

it's spreading

[ivory ridge]

tanavia pornado my beloved

[frigid karma]

tornado dying horribly when it experiences 1.1g:

[subtle prawn]

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2023/april/epf-should-be-permanent-light-amphibious-warship

[frigid karma]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e92mZparox0&ab_channel=BattleOrder

interesting

fletcher's bodyguards

[quick shard]

that battle that took place here year ago

some scrap parts are scattered here in the beaches

[runic prairie]

Wehrbs also love to use this as an argument as to why the Bismarck is so great.

Of course the British sent a large force to pound it into nothing. What were they supposed to do, fight it one-on-one?

[shrewd pecan]

Wehraboos when the Brits use basic military logic

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1647030608554610688

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD 1945, U-1206 was sunk by its toilet. Some accounts claim an engineer turned the wrong valve to flush, but the CO insisted it was a leaky head that caused the sub to become flooded with seawater and chlorine gas. Forced to surface, the sub was attacked and had to be scuttled.

Twitter · Apr 15, 2023, 12:14 AM

[frigid karma]

Even then, the only way this is true is if the carriers sailed within firing range of Yamato and never used their speed to just move out of range

You could argue a torpedo armed pt boat could be superior to Yamato by sailing up right next to it and torping it

[deep apex]

At least it would be something the AA suite could actually hit

[runic prairie]

Wehraboos when they have to use more than three braincells simultaneously.

[desert agate]

https://twitter.com/Aviation_Intel/status/1646951097419071489?t=0qoC7yf2B6fZ1gwmiDJ7kQ&s=19

Tyler Rogoway (@Aviation_Intel)

Planning For Dismantling USS Nimitz Has Begun
https://t.co/qxjutoqYEl

Likes

372

Twitter · Apr 14, 2023, 6:58 PM

[manic latch]

Repost

This historical fact about Challenger still weirds me out ngl

[runic prairie]

I mean it’s not a big surprise.

I live in the Seattle area and occasionally end up in Bremerton when I have business on that side of the Sound.

The process for taking apart those ships is pretty involved, with the reactor cores being removed and then taken on barge up the Columbia River to Hanford where the waste is stored (which they really shouldn’t do because the tanks there are deteriorating but Nevada’s being an annoying little shit and blocking their far more secure storage area).

[frigid karma]

oh you live in seattle?

is the crab pot place still open?

[runic prairie]

Supposedly is though I don’t know it personally.

Beth’s reopened not too long ago after closing during the pandemic.

https://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app1/sam-n-8.html

[frigid karma]

@spring briar shell

[runic prairie]

Ye-olde Strales

It’s a guided 100mm subcaliber shell meant to be fired out of a smoothbore version of the 8”/55.

Relevant Friedman passage

[frigid karma]

subcaliber shells for aa purposes?

[runic prairie]

Yes, and guided in 1947

Had a charge that would divert it back into the trajectory cone.

[frigid karma]

nice

[runic prairie]

Seemed to be radio command guided but given the work they were doing I wouldn’t be surprised if they intended to make it radar beam-riding.

But it was cancelled in 1950-1951.

I’m fairly certain it would’ve been the primary armament of the Kentucky AA conversions given their smoothbore 8”/55 guns.

[spiral cedar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Lesbian_(1923)

[frigid karma]

algerie is gae

[spiral cedar]

https://youtu.be/UeQM3WWhdjs

[eternal veldt]

Sang, am I too late, or would you like CA 27 Chester's blueprints?

Or CA 28 Louisville, albeit later in service, so likely not Houston as sunk. Or is the matter resolved already?

[deep apex]

New Mexico class my beloved

[eternal veldt]

As for the French catapult, only got Richelieu's on hand

[runic prairie]

If Littorio was a ship.

[spiral cedar]

Something tells me Littorio...might already be a ship?

[frigid karma]

no, she is a hot green-haired italian woman

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/352975182065041410/1093166129792421959/LaGalSmug.gif

[eternal veldt]

She was a ship

Just that she's called Italia now

[sullen canyon]

[runic prairie]

Dude you better not be lying.

[deep apex]

The amount of wind generated from the joke flying over y'all's heads could produce power to rival a fucking nuclear powerplant

[zealous vine]

Does anyone know a source I can read about this?

[alpine onyx]

Do the citations wikipedia links lead somewhere?

[runic prairie]

Norman Friedman, U.S. Cruisers: an Illustrated Design History page 368.

You can borrow a copy on Archive.org

Seeing as the book costs like $60

[nocturne pawn]

Today marks a important day gentlemen

[runic prairie]

There’s some information on the Worcester Class and the Des-Moines Class there as well.

You’ll need to look at the post-war section in Naval Anti-Aircraft Guns and Gunnery, N. Friedman for more information on the 5”/54 Mk-41 (trust me it is a confusing story).

[nocturne pawn]

its april 14, well in my area, prolly passed for everyone

and obviously on april 14 something did happen at exactly 11:40

[runic prairie]

Here’s some scans of U.S. Naval Weapons 1883-present about the 5”/54 and related weapons

It doesn’t have as much as I would like on the mk-41 but it’s got some stuff.

[eternal veldt]

[alpine onyx]

Lots of stuff happened on April 14th

[runic prairie]

Here’s the appendix entry on 5” weapons.

[alpine onyx]

Heavy flood in Saxony Anhalt in 1994, on this day

Blubb

[runic prairie]

Part of the problem is the MK-41 design changed drastically over the years. From what I’ve read it started out like a 5”/38 dual mount but changed to something that looked more like a MK-42 automatic (albeit with two barrels).

Additionally it was semi-automatic and about 15 tons lighter than the -42

For the final versions that is. I don’t know what earlier versions were like but for the latter CL-154 and postwar destroyers the quoted number is 112,000 pounds.

There’s also some information on the earlier design on page 243 of U.S. Cruisers.

[zealous vine]

👍

[zealous vine]

Oh wait, no wonder Montana's 5/54 looks different compared to Austin's

Interesting..

[manic latch]

They look different because

They are different mounts

[solid mango]

Man, so thats why Fletcher's 5" looks so different from Altanta's

[zealous vine]

I thought they both should've used the same model since both were to mount twin 5/54s

[manic latch]

Having same barrels doesn't mean same mounts lad

127mm/54 Mark 16 vs 127mm/54 Mark 42

[zealous vine]

No, I know about those 2

I think I didn't bother to read if the mounts were different for Monty and CL-154

I'm less than bright

[eternal veldt]

The interesting bit is that the twin 5"/54, by accounts of Bill Juren, shouldn't look too far off from the 5"/38.

No problem on the drawings. Do let me know how things pan out at the archives. As I recall, a fair amount of stuff was reclassified under a project called -- if memory serves -- "Lookback". It's not so much that most of the material is of any significant military interest any more, it's just that it's now so tedious and complicated to DEclassify anything that usually just easier to leave it locked up in perpetuity. As an example, each page of declassified material must now have the original classification stamps, etc. defaced or removed in a specific way. If one is talking about 20,000 pages of correspondence, this can take a while. The issues with the Montana design revolved around, as I recall, some details of the side protection system and the arrangement of some compartmentation on the second and third decks.

The gunhouses on the Montana model look like 5"/38 gunhouses because they almost ARE 5"38 gunhouses. The gunhouse is, within an inch or so, exactly the same width. The guns are mounted at about the same distance above the deck, and are (again, within an inch or so) exactly the same distance apart. The main differences revolve around the positions of various sighting ports, etc., and the fact that the Montana gunhouse is about 23 inches longer than that typically used on a 5"/38 twin mount. Overall length, muzzle to rear face of the gunhouse on the centerline is about 414" on the Montana mount, and about 319" on a 'regular' 5"/38 twin mount.

Hope this helps...

Bill Jurens

The way WG did it looks reasonable and decent, at the very least.

[quick shard]

whos the pokemo- ship?

[zealous vine]

Should be design proposals for CL-154 (which is what WoWs' Austin is based off of)

[shut wren]

So like does anyone know how are navy seals members selected for or is that classified?

[digital mantle]

What are the plains that Chitose and Chiyoda supposed to use in the game if I want them to match their respective real-life counterparts?

I don’t know what the Mitsubishi A6M5 Zero is in-game… is it one of the Type 0 Fighters?

Lastly, who all had Type 98 Delayed Firing devices and who had the Type 94 Anti-Air Fire control system?

[runic prairie]

For the Montanas, after they were axed the MK-41 design evolved to a mount for destroyers and cruisers.

There’s also a mysterious MK 43 mount, which is supposedly similar to the MK 41 just with a lower trunnion height.

[runic prairie]

The Mk 41 on the CL-154 is is different from the Mk 41 on the Montanas as they progressed in design over the years.

That’s why I said the story of the Mk 41 was a confusing one.

[rapid junco]

Happy 85th launch day to USS St.Louis
One of my favorite American CLs in AL (and one of the ships transferred to Brazil in the post WWII)

[runic prairie]

“You’re going to Brazil.”

[rapid junco]

That's
One of the reasons i like her

Hope one day Manjuu or Yostar adds USS Philadelphia
Which was transferred alongside her and became Almirante Barroso (Louis was renamed to Almirante Tamandaré)

For now only the Argentines have their Brooklyns in game
Phoenix (General Belgrano) and Boise (9 de Julio)

While us and the Chileans only have 1 out of the 2
That would be Brooklyn herself, renamed O'Higgins

The second Chilean Brooklyn was USS Nashville
Captain Prat (then renamed to Chacabuco)

And yet, there would be another Brooklyn to complete the class
USS Savannah
Which alongside Honolulu, wasn't transferred to any country at all

[runic prairie]

Savannah’s interesting as she received a refit to a similar armament of St. Louis after she was hit by a Fritz-X.

[rapid junco]

And she also were around Brazil during war
Patrolling the south atlantic
Alongside the Omahas

Another class i like as well
Marblehead and Omaha even received intership of Brazilian officers (Like, lets say, exchange students)

[spring briar]

@remote monolith

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1647303881733337089

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

Happy 102nd Birthday to Pearl Harbor survivor Ken Potts. Potts was a boatswain mate on the battleship USS Arizona when the Japanese attacked on December 7, 1941. He is one of two living USS Arizona survivors.

Twitter · Apr 15, 2023, 6:20 PM

[shut wren]

Man’s still alive?

[runic prairie]

Kid named Ramesses II with thousands of Egyptian archers:

[spring briar]

Egypt survived yes

But never again reached its former glory

[tight notch]

Real.

[spring briar]

@ivory ridge

[ivory ridge]

[glass trail]

north korean tank doctrine

[spring briar]

[shut wren]

I fucking love this meme

[spring briar]

I know

[shut wren]

I’m pretty sure there’s another one like this but I forgot

[spring briar]

Not chinese but similar

[ivory ridge]

[spring briar]

Undy

[shut wren]

Somebody made one with the 002 or 001

[shut wren]

[ivory ridge]

Bote

[spring briar]

I have it but without sound

[manic latch]

Was a good concept but very expensive

Imagine putting Abrams X turret on every Abrams you have

[shut wren]

How big of a smoke can did they use

[tight notch]

Is this real?

[shut wren]

[shrewd pecan]

I kinda find it questionable

the addition of the bustle rack since if I remember correctly

[manic latch]

Yeah

[shrewd pecan]

its like the t-90M where the crew can't access it from within the tank

[manic latch]

Bustle autoloader at turret back

It was for T-72, 90, 80

[shrewd pecan]

and it doesn't connect into the actual autoloader

tho I could be wrong

[manic latch]

I think T-80 having different autoloader was making compability problems with 72 and 90

So if they all shared same turret with same autoloader

That would be gone

[shrewd pecan]

idk I just find the bustle rack addition just half baked if it is like the T-90Ms bustle rack

[manic latch]

True I guess. Likely why it stayed as Project

Could be nice event vehicle

[shrewd pecan]

beyond that making a standard turret isn't that bad of a idea

[manic latch]

Chal 3 moment

Man Chal 3 will be good in war thunder

[shut wren]

Bruh

[manic latch]

Better mobility
Access to DM53
Better armor
Laser warning receiver
Gen 3 Thermals

[shut wren]

What does the rest of the world get

[manic latch]

Your mom

[shrewd pecan]

DM53 is kinda old

compared to DM73

[manic latch]

Isn't 73 still under testing

US should get M829A3 however

[shut wren]

[shrewd pecan]

M829A4

[manic latch]

Bruh I'm speaking of the game. Or else ye a4 is under development

[shut wren]

[shrewd pecan]

ah WT

idk I think they should fix spalling on T-72/T-80 hulls before they start adding more hyper modern tanks

that is all that I will mention about WT

[shut wren]

Fix fuel tanks going boom pls

[autumn sorrel]

You mean ammo don’t cook off even when they are black?

[shut wren]

What

[spring briar]

@manic latch

[manic latch]

Huh

[autumn sorrel]

Civil war shell?

[shut wren]

Those fr looked like Stone Age rocks

[shrewd pecan]

dm63

[autumn sorrel]

You get that after you get oxidation for over 1.5 century

Krem, how did autoloader on t-90m work?

[shut wren]

It auto loads shells

[autumn sorrel]

Is it chain mechanism or what?

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

40 rounds of 125mm, 22 are ready to be used on an automatic carousel autoloader, other ammunitions are stowed in a special hull rear section to avoid the risks of explosion and provide high crew survivability.

She also has armor on carousel for anti spalling damage

[shut wren]

That didn’t work,did it?

[manic latch]

If you used logic

You will realise it reduces the chance

[autumn sorrel]

So incorporate old system and with fancy box magazines behind turret like all western tank do?

[spring briar]

Soviet shells in WW2:

[manic latch]

No. Behind turret is storage for extra ammo

Here

[spring briar]

[autumn sorrel]

So just the fuze are Pattern? How interchangeable is it with different shell stype?

[shut wren]

[spring briar]

?

I was referring to their flat noses

[autumn sorrel]

Ah, so just separate pieces, commander can access it?

[manic latch]

Ok let me put it like this

Your autoloader has 22 shell inside. But you want to take more shells. So you have to put it around the tank inside.
But that's more dangerous since they can be easier to get hit. So T-90M has a seperate storage box for that extra ammo, so tank is safer. While Abrams/Leopard tanks have to use their hull to store more ammo than just blow out panel one

[autumn sorrel]

I see

[shut wren]

So

It’s actually possible to ammo rack abrams

[spring briar]

Truly the best use of emotes in history

[manic latch]

If blow out panel is open or ammo is inside of hull

[shut wren]

[shut wren]

Too bad we can’t use the red flags

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

Here is the easy example of Leopard 2

She got ammo racked by hull ammo

[spring briar]

Ussr flag?

Ofc you can

[shut wren]

Both red flags

[spring briar]

What other red flag is there

[shut wren]

[shut wren]

The no no Germans

[manic latch]

Why you want to use that

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, what pen her?

[shut wren]

Accuracy

[manic latch]

Likely Kornet ATGM

[autumn sorrel]

Frontal pen? That’s scary!

[spring briar]

We can use it
But too cringe

[shut wren]

True

[manic latch]

Leo 2 A4 has less armor than a A5 turret wise. But not sure if hull is same or not

But yeah it shows hull ammo is scary

[shut wren]

Important shit

Anyways have funny thingies

[spring briar]

[shut wren]

Hmmmmm

[autumn sorrel]

85mm?

[spring briar]

152

[shut wren]

Hmm

[autumn sorrel]

That’s heavy

[shut wren]

KV-2 she’ll?

[spring briar]

This is 85

[shut wren]

Shell

[spring briar]

No

KV-2 only used the anti concrete

[shut wren]

Cuz it was a bunker buster

[autumn sorrel]

ISU-152

[shut wren]

?

[spring briar]

[shut wren]

B r u h

[autumn sorrel]

Which remind of ISU-122, the even more snyperi version

[shut wren]

SU-85 gang

[autumn sorrel]

SU-100 is already inservice late 1944

[manic latch]

Maus fans moment they face Isu-152

[shut wren]

Maus fan moment when they face APFSDS

[spiral cedar]

Where paper

[autumn sorrel]

Fr, like even if Maus were mass produce, the sheer amount of thing that can kill it make it so laughable

[shut wren]

Drop a few bombs on it

TU-2 tactical boom does boom

[spring briar]

[shut wren]

Mfs connected a 50000cal and a normal shell

[spring briar]

[autumn sorrel]

Why does it look like a 7.62x54R enlarge?

[shut wren]

AK man knows

[autumn sorrel]

It is Mosin ammo

Not the 39 case

[shut wren]

All I heard was 7.62

[spring briar]

Here’s a plan

Of the 152

[autumn sorrel]

There are 9x39 and even 7.62x25

[shut wren]

What if

[autumn sorrel]

Sheer mass

[shut wren]

Nevermind

Has there been a instance where bombs went off inside of a bomber?

[spring briar]

French APC

[autumn sorrel]

47mm?

[spring briar]

Yes

[shut wren]

Why it looks like shit modeled into shells

[autumn sorrel]

Bc French

[shut wren]

shit I forgot

[autumn sorrel]

Any AP for 75mm field gun or it can’t fire high velocity?

[shut wren]

[spring briar]

It’s pitted from rust

And the color is from coating it in parafin

[shut wren]

Tf is paradin

[spring briar]

Parafin is wax from crude oil

[autumn sorrel]

Richie, does French have any AT gun have caliber larger than 47 at beginning of ww2?

[shut wren]

[spring briar]

Yes

75’s

[autumn sorrel]

Modele 1897?

[spring briar]

Yes

[autumn sorrel]

It can fire high velocity shell?

[spring briar]

Yes

[autumn sorrel]

Can’t find any info on it AP shell

[spring briar]

It was even given apds by brandt

[shut wren]

Would ERA be effective against WW2 shells

[autumn sorrel]

To some extent

[spring briar]

No

It wouldn’t be effective aside from the extra few millimeters of steel provided by the flyer plates

It would be quite effective against shaped charges from early heat and bazooka shots

But useless against AP

[autumn sorrel]

I am about to say that, it at best would deflect AP somewhat if angle but AP still will laugh at it

[shut wren]

Ok noted

What not to bring if I’m going back to WW2

[spring briar]

rounds developped in emergency in 1940 to provide the field artillery some additional anti-armor capacity. it was a 58mm projectil inside of a 75mm sabot. the projectile was a tungsten core with pointy balistic cap.

Velocity: 900 m/sec
Weight : 1.9 kg
Explosive filler : none

Penetration (estimated)
97mm at 0 meter, angle 0° (velocity of 900 m/sec)
94mm at 100 meter, angle 0° (velocity of 880 m/sec)
86mm at 500 meter, angle 0° (velocity of 825 m/sec)
75mm at 1000 meter, angle 0° (velocity of 750 m/sec)
64mm at 1500 meter, angle 0° (velocity of 675 m/sec)
56mm at 2000 meter, angle 0° (velocity of 615 m/sec)
48mm at 2500 meter, angle 0° (velocity of 550 m/sec)

[autumn sorrel]

French issue?

[spring briar]

Yes, it was of French design and manufacture

[autumn sorrel]

That’s number is kinda disappointed somewhat

I mean, it is good for early war

[spring briar]

It’s literally the 1st apds and only 900m/s

So the performance is fine

[delicate beacon]

Richie gimme shell drawings for my books

[spring briar]

And will penetrate anything without issue

Lol

[autumn sorrel]

How many unit was issue with it?

[spring briar]

Oh also found this round

PCO 40 (APCBC)
rounds produced during WW2 to give a better penetration capacity to the 75mm Mle 1897 in services, this rounds was still produced during the 50s

Velocity: 625 m/sec
Weight : 6.41 kg
Explosive filler : none

Penetration (estimated)
101mm at 100 meter, angle 0°
92mm at 500 meter, angle 0°
81mm at 1000 meter, angle 0°
72mm at 1500 meter, angle 0°
63mm at 2000 meter, angle 0°

Great performance

[autumn sorrel]

Better yet, is there a graph on early war french divisional organization? I see plenty of German, US and Soviet but rarely French

[shut wren]

Can it pen modern MBT like abrams

[spring briar]

Not frontally

[shut wren]

Ok

[spring briar]

Send me shitty sketches from books

[shut wren]

It’s early war was also late war

Shit lasted for 42 days

[spring briar]

[spring briar]

Ah I have these

DM them to me again so I have them in one location pls

[shut wren]

[spring briar]

No

@spiral cedar

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1647332445887385600

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1943, USS Yorktown (CV-10) was commissioned. She would go on to serve with distinction in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. This clip of the Yorktown firing her 5 inch guns is from the 1944 documentary THE FIGHTING LADY.

▶ Play video

Twitter · Apr 15, 2023, 8:13 PM

[spring briar]

[shut wren]

[spring briar]

[zealous vine]

Huh, so I was right after all

[delicate beacon]

Bonjour

[runic prairie]

Yeah.

The Mk 41 on the Montanas, from what I understand used a similar, semi-automatic, loading mechanism to the later Mk 41 designs, though the latter shifted the placement of the guns to the center.

The Mk 42 that succeeded the Mk 41 (late) used an automatic loading mechanism partially derived, but generally fairly different, from that of the Mk 41.

The line drawn seems to be around ammunition handling more than anything else but personally I would’ve probably called the mounts for the CL-154s something else other than Mk 41 to save on confusion.

[frigid karma]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1vuDKraKRU&ab_channel=NATO

TIL nato has a youtube channel

@ivory ridge

[ivory ridge]

it's where they played amongus

isnt it

[spring briar]

[frigid karma]

interesting

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-broken-cat-cat-drinking-cat-licking-cat-air-gif-20661740

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/LockheedMartin/status/1647361136570900480

Lockheed Martin (@LockheedMartin)

Our employees are some of the 2,500+ people who construct Freedom-variant Littoral Combat Ships for the @USNavy.

#LCS31, the future USS Cleveland, is the newest of these ships to be christened and launched.

Likes

139

▶ Play video

Twitter · Apr 15, 2023, 10:07 PM

[runic prairie]

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-031.php

Pretty good article on “modern” (1980s) naval warfare.

[manic latch]

Cleveland name being wasted on LCS

[runic prairie]

People forget that the hardest part is finding the target.

[frigid karma]

80 VLS

[runic prairie]

What kind of VLS?

Mk-41, K-VLS, or K-VLS II?

[frigid karma]

idk

the reddit post just said 80 missiles

[runic prairie]

I think it’s K-VLS II, which is bigger than the original K-VLS.

[chilly osprey]

It's definitely K-VLS II

These exist to launch Ballistic missiles, and that's pretty much it

Since it's more cost effective to do this, for South Korea, than keep buying tons of TELs

[shut wren]

Why it look like they put a boat on top of a boat

[chilly osprey]

Because this is probably just a quick render thrown together

[shut wren]

[runic prairie]

Looks almost like some of the Surface Combatant 21 proposals

[chilly osprey]

Frankly this is probably the one case an arsenal-ship esque ship actually makes sense.

Since you're trying to avoid the cost of a fuck ton of TELs

And the Norks have kind of fucking terrible anti-ship capabilities

[shut wren]

Cuz Poor and skill issue ig

[chilly osprey]

So this can actually hang out in the Sea of Japan and, when needed, launch a fuck-off large strike against North Korea as needed.

[shut wren]

so

If SK ever decides that it wants the north back

this could be used as support?

[chilly osprey]

Ha

Lol

[runic prairie]

I don’t think they want the North Back

[shut wren]

"IF"

[frigid karma]

epublic of Korea Navy has reportedly selected Daewoo Shipbuilding & Engineering (DSME) to design its future arsenal ships on 11 April 2023.

Locally known as “Joint Firepower Vessel (합동화력함),” three arsenal ships are expected to enter service with the ROKN by late 2020s. They’re expected to displace around 5~8,000 tons and armed with up to 80 ballistic missiles, CIWS, torpedos, and other defensive armaments.

ROKN’s future arsenal ships are similar in deign to US Navy concept devised in the 90s, though its operating concept will be and operational environment will be quite different from what USN envisioned. Designed solely for land attack mission,arsenal ships are a practical solution that will address current shortcomings faced by South Korean kill chain and massive retaliation networks.

Despite possessing a large inventory of Hyunmoo-series conventional land-attack ballistic and cruise missiles, South Korea reportedly possesses only around 60+ transporter erector launchers (TEL). These specialized launch vehicles are expensive, maintenance & manpower heavy, require lengthy reload period, and vulnerable to North Korean attacks. With current TEL inventory, it is impossible to launch mass missile salvo that is required in the initial stage of the war against North Korea.

The arsenal ship will address this shortcoming by providing a relatively low-cost, mobile, and survivable launch platform capable of mass salvo fire at a moment’s notice. South Korea is currently undertaking a massive effort to consolidate its strategic strike & missile defense assets under a single umbrella of the ROK Strategic Command slated to become online in 2024. These arsenal ships will likely fall under its operational control.

Although these arsenal ships are extremely vulnerable against modern anti-ship threats posed by adversaries like China, they are being designed exclusively for a North Korean contingency. They will operate far from reaches of North Korean coastal defense cruise missiles and submarines, likely in relative safety of South Korea’s southern coastline or far off the Easter coastline.

The ROK Joint Chiefs of Staff initially identified arsenal ships as part of its long-term procurement plan in 2018. Once DSME completes conceptual design this year, arsenal ships will become part of next year’s mid-term procurement plan and undergo necessary procurement procedures.

[chilly osprey]

Yeah, that's not really the scenario they think about

[shut wren]

[chilly osprey]

This exists to be able to take out the various North Korean missiles and artillery sites so they can limit the kind of destruction they can rain down on South Korea

[shut wren]

so if NK decides to invade SK they could be used as support?

[chilly osprey]

Because that's sort of North Korea's ace in the hole

[runic prairie]

Yeah. It’s for second-strike capability (like with nuclear arsenals except conventional).

[chilly osprey]

I'd say more or less to try and limit what the Norks can manage with a first strike

Otherwise

[runic prairie]

That’s second strike capability.

[shut wren]

So

[chilly osprey]

Seoul is in range of a lot of North Korean weapons

And no one trusts them not to try and use stuff like chemical weapons

[shut wren]

Who woulda know

A 3 generation dynasty should not be trusted

[runic prairie]

NK chemical weapons would definitely provoke a nuclear response.

[shut wren]

By the US?

[runic prairie]

Yeah

It’s the policy they held in Desert Storm.

[shut wren]

I mean

Ok

Nevermind

[runic prairie]

If NK goes up the escalation ladder like that, things have gone far beyond the point where it’s likely things will cool down.

Getting at least some of their nukes in a preemptive nuclear weapon use would be preferable to letting NK escalate to them.

[chilly osprey]

^

[shut wren]

Gives the US justification to retaliate

[runic prairie]

It allows the U.S. and South Korea to control the situation somewhat.

No CBRN would be preferable but it’s a game of chicken with weapons that can wipe cities off maps.

Blinking means you lose.

[shut wren]

It do be like that

So like

Y’all wanna switch topics

[chilly osprey]

The prequel to The Final Countdown

[runic prairie]

Thoughts on the SPY-6 radar?

[shut wren]

looks like a pair of eye balls from the front

[runic prairie]

@shut wren

Do you know if the H-5 bomber ever carried anti-ship missiles or was ever considered to carry anti-ship missiles?

[shut wren]

I can look into it if you want,but IIRC no

[runic prairie]

Thanks

I don’t think you have to, I was just wondering if you’d ever seen anything about it.

[shut wren]

yea prob not as during that time when it was put into service Chinese missiles werent even existing,or very early stages

but np

[shut wren]

so related to naval,the H-5 was used as a testbed for the JH-7,which would later serve in the PLANAF

[runic prairie]

[cinder escarp]

AFAIK the H-5 never had ASMs... but did carry rocket-assisted torpedoes

Il-28/H-5 was literally designed as one of the very last torpedo bombers, as one of its missions

[shut wren]

Seems to explain why they made the H-6K....

[cinder escarp]

RAT-52, 4x per IL-28 in torpedo config

[shut wren]

Holy shit

[cinder escarp]

For anti-ship missiles, the Tu-4 was the early platform of choice.

Using the goofy aah KS-1

[frigid karma]

wait

why does wows kaga have d4y2s

[shut wren]

Bruh I once though these were the cherry blossom sucide aircraft by the japanese

[shut wren]

They just dont care ig,they slap on what makes sense for that era and call it a day

[frigid karma]

BAHAHHAAH

Bismarck sank in the English channel guys

@spiral cedar

we've reached a new low

[spiral cedar]

Every channel is the English Channel

[frigid karma]

also

[spiral cedar]

🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧

[solid mango]

The entire Atlantic is the English Channel

[frigid karma]

Hood shot Bismarck?

[solid mango]

[shut wren]

[frigid karma]

:powangry:

enerdy

🤓

[spiral cedar]

Bismarck just ran out of fuel guys

Silly Germans, not knowing how to count gas mileage

[frigid karma]

1940 gas prices

[solid mango]

How silly of them

[frigid karma]

3 million reichmarks a liter

[solid mango]

Still coping with the reichsmark

[frigid karma]

friedrich der bismarck

[solid mango]

Yt comments the most reliable sources

[shut wren]

Youtube comment section aruging is the funniest shit ever

[frigid karma]

oh my

fucking god

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/352975182065041410/1093166129792421959/LaGalSmug.gif

[solid mango]

Im pretty sure this must be sarcasm

[shut wren]

I hoping thats scarcasm

[solid mango]

P L E A SE

[shut wren]

S h a r k

[frigid karma]

very similar

[solid mango]

Im pretty sure the story of how it played out ig?

Malevolence was pretty much trying to be hidden... I forgor my SW

[shut wren]

[solid mango]

Ye im now doubting myself

[shut wren]

[solid mango]

Lets get back to reading yt comments shall we

[shut wren]

[subtle prawn]

Back during the RTS days, she had more historically correct aircraft

[humble mulch]

Malevolence was like a legitimate fuck all insane super weapon kinda deal, which is why it more or less stayed "hidden"

Which I guess werbhs claim the Bismarck is, and there was the whole "fuck this bitch kill it now" status the 2 shared

I haven't read any star wars clones wars shit thats actually confirmed that but wouldn't surprise me

[frigid karma]

i mean, doesn't that fit yamato more?

with like giant fucking cloth coverings around her dockyard and every worker threatened with death if they ever leaked the ship

[humble mulch]

Well

Yamato wasn't really hunted in the same way

[frigid karma]

in contrast to bismarck which was launched before the war

im talking about thie "hidden sekrit weapon part"

[humble mulch]

While Malevolence and the Bismarck were

Oh

Yeah she's far more like Yamato secret weapon wise

[frigid karma]

and even then, getting hunted down by a lot of ships isn't like

unique to the bismarck

it's just using basic common sense in military

[humble mulch]

Iirc the republic didn't even know it existed until 2 different Venator groups got yeeted

[frigid karma]

"we have 30 x, they have one x, let's outnumber them"

[humble mulch]

Yeah

I mean more like

USN didn't immediately go try to find the Yamato

And fight it in a fuck all fleet battle

[frigid karma]

Well they also didn't know yamato even existed

Until like, latewar

and then they just jumped her at ten-go and ate her

[humble mulch]

Yeah Yamato didn't exactly do much to give them a reason to chase her

Which is why Bismarck may seem to be a batter comparison

[frigid karma]

[humble mulch]

Shows up
Kills something
Immediately the entire navy goes out to kill it

Also I guess Dave Filoni did base the malevolence off the Bismarck

Neat but like, man don't feed their egos

[shut wren]

Just exactly how bad are their egos?

[humble mulch]

See imo, if you think something is cool you naturally are gonna think pretty highly of it and maybe give it the benefit of the doubt when you really shouldn't be. The ability to understand faults of things you like and acknowledge them (or hell even yourself) makes things go along smoother and keeps discourse not a hell scape with better learning experiences and information given on topics

[frigid karma]

no tea

if they don't understand faults of things, it makes it easier to shit on them in this channel

half of jaba's posts are about quora morons

[shut wren]

[humble mulch]

Like I really like Springfield hand guns even tho they aren't actually the same Springfield company from when the UA was founded, and glock fans hate them cause not all of their guns are American and usually have funny Fudd features

[strong plank]

I mean the whole Death Star trench run was inspired by the dambusters

[humble mulch]

And glocks are, Austrian, and look like fucking Legos

[strong plank]

Springfield 1911s are pretty good

[humble mulch]

OK that's pretty based

[shut wren]

I like the M1 Grand

[humble mulch]

Pretty sure the real Springfield 1911, is made by the now defunct Springfield, with the new Springfield company picking them up

It's weird

[strong plank]

Pretty sure Springfield even uses the original patent/tooling

My dad’s got one of their garrison 1911s

[humble mulch]

Yeah pretty sure they got it via name memes or something

Cause like

They sell Croatian guns

Like I'm pretty sure majority of the stuff they themselves have made were with their Croatian guys

Cause iirc in early 2000s they picked up some gun patents/companies to compete with glock and sig

[shut wren]

Which aircraft carries the MOAB?

[strong plank]

Local gun store has an M1A, complete with scope mount and 2 mags for $1.5k

[humble mulch]

Pretty sure the stealth bombers do

Idk what else is able to carry them tho as they are heavy

[shut wren]

ok ok

I think C-17 does?

wait

nevermind

[subtle prawn]

C-17 is a transport aircraft, not a bomber

[humble mulch]

Oh nvm yeah

[ivory ridge]

C-130

[humble mulch]

Transport planes drop it

[thorn trail]

iirc only the tactical version of the C-130 can drop it

I forgot what variant of the C-130

[ivory ridge]

MC-130E Combat Talon I/II

and also the B2 yes

[thorn trail]

I'm wondering why the B-2 can't drop it when the B-2 can carry 2 of the bigger MOPs

[shut wren]

I was thinking of the C-130

(I totally didnt see it from a WT short)

[thorn trail]

afaik the B-2 doesn't carry it

or rather it isn't certified

[subtle prawn]

Army General Nikolai Vatutin, then commander of the 1st Ukrainian Front, was ambushed and severely wounded by Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) forces on 28 February while traveling to Ivan Chernyakhovskii's 60th Army HQ in western Ukraine. You can check out our post covering the ambush on Vatutin to find out how it all played out.



As we know, Vatutin was treated in a field hospital after being carried for several hours by two of his staff officers before being transferred to a military hospital in Kiev. Given Vatutin's importance to the Red Army, the best medical experts arrived quickly in Kiev to treat him, including the chief surgeon of the Red Army, Lieutenant General of the Medical Service Nikolai Nilovich Burdenko. An examination showed that Vatutin had a through-and-through wound to the thigh, which was not serious. However, the bullet did shatter his femur. Despite undergoing a successful operation, Vatutin developed gas gangrene.



Details remain unclear on how Vatutin's treatment continued. Still, it is possible that he refused the potentially life-saving amputation of his leg or that the amputation was performed too late, and his condition worsened over the weeks.



Today, 15 April, Vatutin dies of multiple organ failure caused by gangrene.



His death is just the latest tragedy for the Vatutin family, as the general's two brothers, Afanasy Fyodorovich and Semyon Fyodorovich, were killed in action in Feb and Mar 1944.



Army General Nikolai Vatutin will be buried in Mariinsky Park in Kiev on 17 April.



Picture: Nikolai Vatutin's state funeral, Kiev, Ukraine

Source: WW2 Database```

[shut wren]

Its Classified

[humble mulch]

Yeah I was thinking the B-2

[ivory ridge]

right, it could but doesnt

[ivory ridge]

yeah that's a mop tho

[humble mulch]

Yee

[thorn trail]

that's the much heavier MOP

[ivory ridge]

le bunkerbuster

[thorn trail]

30,000 pounds vs the 21,600 of the MOAB

[humble mulch]

Not "certified"
More like they just don't want people to know we can stealth bomb em with it

[shut wren]

So basically

Classified

[thorn trail]

Ah ok

Seems to be due to the MOAB being slightly longer

by around 10ft

[humble mulch]

Oh so it might not fit in there safely

[thorn trail]

yeah the MOP is already very tight in there in this pic with a mockup B-2 bomb bay

[humble mulch]

Lmao

Understandable then

[shut wren]

is the MOAB just a big ass bomb or its a big ass guided bomb

[thorn trail]

it is guided

official name is GBU-43

GBU stands for Guided, Bomb Unit

[shut wren]

[humble mulch]

I'd pray it's guided if they drop it via a fucking pallet from any form of C-130 lmao

[shut wren]

Remember those time where the parachute didnt open and the humvee and jeep just fell and blew up lol

[thorn trail]

Yeah even the B-52 can't carry this

both bomb bays too short

by around 2 feet

[desert agate]

that was active sabotage and the soldiers behind it went to prison for a long time

[shut wren]

cut the bomb by 3 feet

[shut wren]

bruh those bozos

2 jeeps and humvees are nothing to the US budget

[desert agate]

doesnt matter

they were paid for by the taxpayer and are owned by the unit, losing them degrades the units capabilities and is a waste of taxpayer money

you dont destroy expensive pieces of military hardware for shits n gigs and have nothing happen to you

[strong plank]

^

If your equipment gets destroyed you can’t train on it until replacements arrive

[shut wren]

Its all shits and giggles until somebody giggles and shits

[thorn trail]

you are losing like the entire guidance system at that point

[shut wren]

Cut the part without the guidance system

[eternal veldt]

A bit late, but I think this is a bit off: The RN already mobilized the home fleet as soon as Gotland spotted her leaving, and after a spitfire took photos of her at Norway.

Killing Hood just required things to detach from other fleets to track her down and kill her.

[shut wren]

or just get some dude with a hack saw and hack the bomb bay by 3 feet

fit the bomb

[eternal veldt]

Same kinda applies to Yamato: leave Kure, get spotted by a sub

[humble mulch]

True, my statement plays more into the misconceptions/people being unaware of the situation at hand and just going off Churchills whole "sink the Bismarck" order

[eternal veldt]

US gets TF58 to hammer her ass to kingdom come

Yea, it's a capital ship. Sink one and it's a blow to the enemy war effort.

[thorn trail]

didn't Spruance originally want to fight Yamato with the battleship line?

[eternal veldt]

Marc Mitscher took the initiative IIRC.

[thorn trail]

TF 54

[eternal veldt]

I think what is interesting is what may happen if Bismarck did retreat through Denmark Strait rather than going to Brest.

Because all between her and that is...Revenge.

Which I don't think she will do well against Bismarck.

[thorn trail]

how much more pissed would the British be if the Bismarck did do that and sank a 2nd capital ship

[eternal veldt]

Being pissed or not wouldn't change anything

Given how Tovey explicitly ordered Renown not to engage Bismarck for the fear of repeating Hood, it would make sense that Revenge was ordered to do the same if somehow Bismarck actually appeared

Unless Lutjens lost his damn mind and chose to engage with a leaky tub, and then also proceed to hit on HX128 as well

[shut wren]

HX128?

[eternal veldt]

Convoy

[shut wren]

oh ok

[humble mulch]

2 for 1 special

[eternal veldt]

Not even sure if its actually even fessible to get back to Norway with the fuel situation

Much less divert to beat a convoy up (the whole reason why she was mission-killed)

[frigid karma]

well, she is fighting a bismarck with her fc fucked

[eternal veldt]

Just her radar.

[frigid karma]

So despite the crappy armor, it's still 8x381s

[eternal veldt]

It's 15/42s though.

[frigid karma]

revenge only got her radar in 41 right?

[eternal veldt]

1942 feb

Only Type 279 air warning was added in Jan 1941

I think jaba did a calculation of the 15/42 against biscuit's scheme already.

[maiden citrus]

15''/42s have an absolutely abhorent immune zone vs bismarck

yeah

was gonna comment that

it's the guns bismarck is actually designed to fight

[eternal veldt]

The RN themselves openly admit that the Rs are "out of the question" for engaging Tirpitz in the aftermath

So while Bismarck is damaged, I don't think the odds are still in Revenge's favour

...That said, I forgot

did Jaba do a calculation of Bismarck using the 14"/50s of the US?

[maiden citrus]

I believe so

[eternal veldt]

The thought of a New Mexico somehow managing to hurt Bismarck sounds immensely funny.

[maiden citrus]

it's a much better fight

more guns, much more effective vs the scheme, protected better

[frigid karma]

name these dance moves

[thorn trail]

Why did the newer BBs have higher elevations for their guns?

Like the 16in and above BBs had elevation of up to 45 degrees for their guns while the 15in and below seem to be at around 30-35

[spiral cedar]

More range

Highest range is achieved generally at 45-50 deg elevation for most shells

[thorn trail]

yeah but why did most of the European stick to 30-35 elevation?

[alpine onyx]

Because with their higher velocity guns 30° can already cover all practical ranges. Richelieu's guns at 35° reach 40+km, SoDaks guns at 35° barely break 30km

[thorn trail]

Ah so it's high velocity versus larger shells?

[alpine onyx]

Larger shells can also reach those velocities, but the US didn't to achieve the deck penetration values they ended up having

Also there's a limit to how much range can practically be used

Having 40+km range is nice, but when realistic combat sat at 20km and below in most cases it is more bragging rights

[maiden citrus]

there's that and achieving higher elevation is more mechanically challenging and can use more space, the US was eager to and did end up modernizing elevation to a greater extent during the interwar period to achieve greater range on their existing ships for which they anticipated battles would use from study, by the time ww2 is around they have had a lot of experience making and remaking high elevation turrets (most had their elevation doubled) so making very high elevation guns for deck penetration was not particularly new ground

[runic prairie]

“16 inch guns would make Bismarck overweight.”

As if she wasn’t already horribly overweight for her armament.

[manic latch]

Meanwhile Vanguard with same firepower

[maiden citrus]

less firepower

even if she could hold all her ammunition etc

[manic latch]

True

[alpine onyx]

Bisko was already pushed by getting enlarged for 38cm guns (from 35cm) last minute

We were so close to seeing her being turbo electric

[maiden citrus]

that would've been cool

[runic prairie]

I’m not going to say Vanguard was a great design (it wasn’t because they were trying to reuse 15” guns) but she had a lot of AA guns which add a lot of weight, especially on the upper portions of the hull, requiring ballast.

Vanguard was a modified Lion, which would’ve mounted 16” guns. In that, it’s fairly obvious she was a sub-optimal compromise.

[alpine onyx]

Oh before I forget, another "Bismarck is 50k tons" on the bingo

[runic prairie]

It’s not my fault the Germans sucked at building ships.

[spring briar]

That’s generalising a bit don’t you think?

[manic latch]

I only dislike their destroyers

[desert agate]

They had a few bangers

[runic prairie]

No, I think it’s accurate. Name a well designed Kriegsmarine ship.

There isn’t one. They’re either overweight and under-gunned, have serious structural or stability problems, or lack a realistic or clear doctrinal role, sometimes they combine several of these problems.

They’re all bad.

[desert agate]

Deutschlands were basically peak for what they were

[runic prairie]

Deutchlands were a stupid waste.

[desert agate]

They were realistically the best the Germans could get with the restrictions placed on them and performed well in their designed role

[runic prairie]

They’re exactly the things Battlecruisers (something the RN had the most out of anyone) were well suited to killing.

[desert agate]

List of Deutschlands sunk by battlecruisers:

Scheer was active for most of the war and managed to get by just fine

In fact it would hardly be an exaggeration to say that Scheer was the Kriegsmarines most successful surface combatant by far

[runic prairie]

Graf Spee was scuttled because they thought Ark Royal and Renown, a battlecruiser, were coming for them.

[runic prairie]

That’s an incredibly low bar.

The converted merchant cruisers were better for their price than any of the Kriegsmarine’s purpose built warships.

Their best purpose was serving as coffins for Nazis.

Which, fortunately, many did.

[eternal veldt]

A ruse de guerre, that might have happened to any ship or any battle.

[delicate beacon]

Scheer completely ruined the defence of the DEI by existing.

[eternal veldt]

Hunting a lone raider that could independently operate takes up massive amount of ships - if anything, there were multiple squadrons that were needed to hunt down Graf Spee herself.

Force F - Berwick, York
Force G - Exeter, Cumberland, Ajax, Achilles
Force H - Sussex, Shropshire
Force I - Cornwall, Dorsetshire, Eagle
Force K - Ark Royal, Renown
Force L - Dunkerque, Bearn, 3 French Light Cruisers
Force M - 2 French Heavy Cruisers
Force N - Strasbourg, Hermes

For ONE single ship, you are tying down that many resources. A great investment.

[runic prairie]

Doesn’t make it a good design.

[eternal veldt]

A ship's existence isn't just a simple 1 vs 1 fight where one wins and one doesn't - her existence has a strategic impact.

So what exactly is bad about them?

Other than "it can be hunted down by a battlecruiser" - all of which are of significantly heavier tonnage compared to them.

[delicate beacon]

What WNT cruiser cant be

[eternal veldt]

It's obvious that a Dunkerque will completely trash a Panzerschiff head on - then you realize said ship is literally designed in response to them.

[runic prairie]

It’s designed for a role which they categorically failed at for the investment made into them by the Germans.

[delicate beacon]

Wat ....

[runic prairie]

Yeah it took resources for the allies to hunt them down but they could spare those resources.

[eternal veldt]

Because hunting a single ship in the massive ocean takes precisely that many ships.

[runic prairie]

Backwards nations like Nazi Germany tend to get high on their own supply and consistently made poor naval procurement decisions.

[alpine onyx]

So Germany facing opposition with infinitely more resources makes their designs bad?

[eternal veldt]

Nor can you ignore that threat - when it can appear and just take your precious supply ships out.

[delicate beacon]

It takes even more if it's the Indian Ocean.

[runic prairie]

They just shouldn’t have bothered with the surface raider program.

[delicate beacon]

Then what should they?

[eternal veldt]

So are you saying that they should invest in more U-boats?

with a glorious 70% attrition rate?

[runic prairie]

At the start they actually were alright.

Afterwards any investment was just a waste to be thrown into the meatgrinder.

[eternal veldt]

And how long did it take for the British to start spinning out dedicated ASW ships and smaller convoy escorts to snuff out the U-boats?

[delicate beacon]

ITT: Ships are bad because they can get sunk

[runic prairie]

Ships are bad because they can’t perform the roles they were meant to fulfill.

[delicate beacon]

But the Dlands did ...

[alpine onyx]

Until late 1943 the German surface fleet managed to perform just fine

But trading roundabout 1:1 against the Royal Navy which halfway down the line gets the USN is not gonna cut it

[runic prairie]

For a cost far greater than necessary.

[eternal veldt]

Except you needed to hunt this ship down because it posed a massive threat to your unarmed ships.

[alpine onyx]

But that'd be an unrealistic bar to place, no navy can be expected to 1:3 like that

[runic prairie]

Then don’t play at all.

[alpine onyx]

Again, until 1943 they held themselves

[delicate beacon]

I dont think any other cruiser would fare better than the Dlands with their cruising ability.

[runic prairie]

But the Dlands had the distinction of being more pricy.

[alpine onyx]

The iron from Norway won't transport itself

[eternal veldt]

Slight problem: The British likes to use CLs to protect these unarmed ships after the commencement of war.

[alpine onyx]

Mine warfare won't conduct itself

[runic prairie]

You don’t need capital ships to do that.

[alpine onyx]

And the Deutschlands worked so well during Atlantic cruises due to their unmatched (for a warship that size) endurance

[eternal veldt]

or CAs, and in that case, I don't think you would fare well as a Hilfskreuzer.

See: Pinguin.

[alpine onyx]

You need larger ships to maintain that control

A fleet of DDs can't secure shipping lines

[eternal veldt]

It should be pointed out that as much of a victory it was for the Brits at River Plate, Exeter still ate quite a bit of shit for her trouble.

[runic prairie]

But land air-power is more flexible for such Littoral operations.

[alpine onyx]

Land air power certainly helped Z31, 37 and 38 when they got intercepted by two CLs... oh wait it didn't

[runic prairie]

It and Carrier aircraft helped the folks of Taffy 3

Air power can compensate

[delicate beacon]

Oh no

[alpine onyx]

Taffy 3 is your argument for land based aircraft maintaining sea control?

[delicate beacon]

The air power can of worms

[eternal veldt]

Are you aware of the disorganized condition of the Centre Force at Samar?

[runic prairie]

It’s my argument that air-power can compensate for surface inferiority.

[alpine onyx]

In certain circumstances, sure

[runic prairie]

Seems like a Skill Issue.

[alpine onyx]

When the enemy has no airpower, is poorly led, and when it is actually there

And the British clearly had no aircraft around Norway, Tirpitz be shooting at clouds

[eternal veldt]

Sure, but let us completely ignore that factor and what Sirene mentioned and come to the conclusion that air power can compensate for surface inferiority no matter what.

[runic prairie]

And maybe the Nazis shouldn’t have committed Genocide but it’s pretty well established they weren’t the smartest “people”.

[alpine onyx]

Anyway, good German warships of that period
Deutschlands
Königsbergs
1939 TBs
Are three easy to argue for candidates

Unless you believe janky sources

Like untracable citations of someones alledged memoirs

[spring briar]

Möwe

[alpine onyx]

Oh yes, the 1923s and 1924s

For the requirements very good ships

[maiden citrus]

I haven't heard much praise for the konigs, can it be elaborated on? (they're cute)

[eternal veldt]

Just a counter question in light of the argument: If the Panzerschiffe are terrible designs that are 100% trash, why did multiple nations need to bother with new designs in hopes of taking them out?

[delicate beacon]

Shouldve built more airplanes to counter them.

[eternal veldt]

Not just the French. British, US, and even Italy.

[runic prairie]

Why did nations work on general Cruiser Killer designs like the Alaskas?

[eternal veldt]

What was Alaska designed for?

[delicate beacon]

Japan, not Germany

[spring briar]

The Alaska’s are not general cruiser killers

[eternal veldt]

or rather, who was the target?

[runic prairie]

8 inch armed cruisers

[spring briar]

Wrong

[eternal veldt]

Sure, but Deutschland was a massive consideration.

[runic prairie]

There would be a counter made no matter what kind of ship the Germans built.

[alpine onyx]

Lightweight CLs with good armament all around, appropriate protrction and good mobility and cruising range

[delicate beacon]

Oyasumi

[spring briar]

[alpine onyx]

The main thing people critizise is Karlsruhe alledgedly almost breaking apart, the origin of that point I could only trace to someone citing a book that sounds like memoirs, but the book is not appearing on Google, Amazon, federal library, etc...

[delicate beacon]

How is Shiki's drawing coming along

[spring briar]

Anyways @runic prairie do you have the same opinion about other navies too?

[alpine onyx]

Meanwhile the official report of that storm is describing difficulties maintaining proper course without causing too much hull stress, but ends on a positive note

[eternal veldt]

I'm sure that's why the French Bataille de 17,500t designs had to be completely scrapped and started anew.

[spring briar]

[runic prairie]

Mostly just the Nazis.

Honestly, Trinity was a wasted opportunity to get the lot of them in one go.

[manic latch]

Well Kronshtadt was for Scharnhorst and Graf spees, Dunkerque was for Graf Spees, Alaska was for rumored Japanese large cruiser

[spring briar]

But the Dlands and K’s werent designed by them

[manic latch]

Or else your 8 inch cruisers usually has ability deal with other 8 inches

[spring briar]

It gave us the beautiful Dunkys

[eternal veldt]

Which is great.

[runic prairie]

Completely overmatching an opponent is preferable than just getting by.

[manic latch]

So build more BBs?

[eternal veldt]

Also started the whole domino effect of Franco-Italian-German capital BB "countering" each other too.

Italy being particularly upset about Dunky.

[manic latch]

They broke for new ship ye. So upgrade old stuff

[runic prairie]

Obviously within financial constraints.

[manic latch]

Alaska ain't financial ye

[spring briar]

Alaska

Failed hoists in 1942

How

[manic latch]

Thus you get Des Moines. 8 inch with faster firing

[spring briar]

Shells are not supposed to deform like that

[maiden citrus]

hm, I suppose they are really light so the armor is expected, I've heard their propulsion was weird though but nothing concrete

[eternal veldt]

Tfw Alaska's hull doesn't even work and required extra work

[delicate beacon]

Build more BBs when you're capped at 10.000t

[eternal veldt]

Great White Elephant.

[spring briar]

I don’t want to talk about Alaska

[manic latch]

We are speaking of Alaska vs
BB here

[eternal veldt]

But yea, Japanese cruisers aside, uh oh

[manic latch]

Japanese Graf Spee intel was going to have uhh 410mm I think. Or did US knew about 310mm

[delicate beacon]

I think I've seen both

[alpine onyx]

It was weird since they had dedicated cruising diesel, which could not be used alongside the steam plant so they had to stop for swapping. Otherwise reliable, somewhat fuel efficient, but also quite spacious

[eternal veldt]

Jane's 1940 reports the alleged large cruisers at 310mm.

[manic latch]

Kasino

[spring briar]

What’s the rangefinder length on the Kents

[eternal veldt]

The Shokaku-Kadekuru mix up is still skeptical imo, so not exactly sure what's going on there.

That said, not the first time US received bad intel publications made speculative designs, like the fictitious Tsushima CAVs.

[shrewd pecan]

new T-64 variant dropped

[manic latch]

Frens

[shrewd pecan]

also Polish K2

[manic latch]

Prototype Tos variant with 122mm missiles instead 220mm

Honestly could be nice prem when Tos-1 comes for Tech tree

It's weaker than tech tree variant

[shrewd pecan]

Is the range as ass as the TOS-1s?

[manic latch]

If these are Grad's 122mms