history

[alpine onyx]

Gives me Monty Python vibes

Thou shalt count to three and stuff

[eternal veldt]

Some, I noticed are likely from Navweaps, like metacentric height and stability

[deep apex]

And wasn't most of what was Austria-Hungary not even Austrian nor Hungarian?

[eternal veldt]

Radar, beaten to death

[silver crest]

yup

nationalism is a powerful force

it is what united germany

and what destabilized autria-hungary

[eternal veldt]

And I still dont exactly understand the "cabling outside citadel" argument to this day

[deep apex]

And these duchies, kingdoms and such in fmr HRE see themselves all as "German," no?

[eternal veldt]

Like, if you argue the Littorios were crappy because the diesel generators were outside the citadel, sure

Cabling, though...what ship doesnt have cabling out of its citadel?

[silver crest]

well, they had a united german culture

you could say that

[strong plank]

I see where this is going

[silver crest]

idk

[alpine onyx]

That list, besides one or two points, is either false, semi-correct (technical part is true, but it didn't cause the issues described) or a case of [citation needed]

[silver crest]

im not familiar with hre and how the german states saw each other

im still reading stuff about that

[strong plank]

so if you try to balkanize a region where the culture is all pretty similar

[deep apex]

Won't they just

Reunite?

[strong plank]

what's to stop it from re unifying

[silver crest]

[alpine onyx]

Like I never heard credible sources describing vibration issues

[silver crest]

probably trying to find who would get to lead the states

[strong plank]

also weren't the german wars of unification just 60-70 years prior

[silver crest]

fighting over who gets to rule over the others

[deep apex]

Like

Just over 50

[strong plank]

ie relatively recent in cultural memory

[deep apex]

Wait

No not even

40 actually

[eternal veldt]

And Im more curious how the centreline shaft affects buoyancy

[silver crest]

unification happened in like 1870 or something

[deep apex]

1871

[silver crest]

because bismarck

[eternal veldt]

Or the no override stuff, not exactly sure where the source is , or how badly it affects the ship

[silver crest]

bro edited a telegram and started a war

[strong plank]

yeah so I doubt dividing up germany would've done much

given the people would still remember fighting to unite just a few decades prior

[deep apex]

Also wouldn't some states just have

No industrial base

To speak of

Since

Most of it

Is in

[silver crest]

what would stop them from fighting eachother on which state gets to rule over the others

[deep apex]

The ruhr?

[strong plank]

culture?

[silver crest]

remember pan-arabism?

they all agreed on a united arab world but cant decide on who gets to lead

[strong plank]

my guy

[silver crest]

then it all fell apart

[strong plank]

you do understand there's a difference between

[deep apex]

But wouldn't Prussia

[strong plank]

a bunch of theoretical small states that had been united, then forcibly separated

and

[deep apex]

Probably

Be the largest

[strong plank]

"why won't the middle east unite"

[deep apex]

Again?

And lead

[silver crest]

fair enough

[deep apex]

Again?

[silver crest]

too complex of a topic for me

[deep apex]

Austria and Prussia were really the only ones with any huge amount of power

[alpine onyx]

Is kinda false anyway, survivors stated that they did manage to decouple the rudder (likely just one), and somewhat countersteered with the propulsion

[strong plank]

like if you're gonna compare it to pan arabism

the arab world's history is just war after war against one another

religious conflicts, territorial conflicts

[alpine onyx]

But with trimming being all over due to the fourth or fifth breech of the hull now, and the poor weather, it only sufficed for ~8kn against the weather

[strong plank]

no shit you're not gonna find a magical way to bring it all together

versus

[silver crest]

and so did the german states back then

[strong plank]

a bunch of small states who until 15 minutes ago had been united

[manic latch]

Muhammed did United Arabs best as he can tho tbh

[silver crest]

religious division in europe led to countless wars

like the 30 years war

[strong plank]

but we're not talking about europe overall

[silver crest]

neighbouring german states were fighting eachother too

bavaria and brandenburg-prussia

[deep apex]

The Arabs can rally against a common enemy

But

They don't really

Seem

To hold after

They defeat that enemy

[manic latch]

Israel would be main focus

[deep apex]

Germany was able to stay

[strong plank]

my point is that's a shitty comparison to make

[manic latch]

So maybe instability actually helps them alot

[strong plank]

because it's far easier to take states that had previously been together and get them to unite again

than it is to bring peace to the middle east

[deep apex]

That's what my dad believes. They're so busy tangled with each other that they make themselves easier enemies

[strong plank]

unless you're soviet of course

[eternal veldt]

What about the AA? You cant deny about the 37mm being a bit of a meme though.

[manic latch]

Rome

[strong plank]

where your former territories aren't gonna want to go back to that abusive relationship

[deep apex]

Also

Former areas of the German Empire

Are pretty

Well

Industrialized

Like in Poland today

When that part was under German control, a lot of industrialization and mechanization was established

[silver crest]

i like how wilhelm 1 styled himself as the german emperor instead of the emperor of germany so that it would not sound like he's ruling over the other kings and their superior

[manic latch]

Do cultures unite people or Conqueror

[silver crest]

we can all agree something about the little german states unifying

cartographers breathed a sigh of relief when that happened

[manic latch]

I say Conqueror

[unreal elbow]

conqueror

[manic latch]

US Civil War is good example if you ask me

Conf states want to seperate, attacks Fort Sumter

Union brings the weapons to prevent it

Now those states are together for a long while

"United" thanks to Union's decision of war

Thus Conqueror unites people AND keeps them together

[unreal elbow]

Yea

[manic latch]

Since as Japan says
“The nail that sticks out gets hammered down”

[unreal elbow]

Where are you from

[manic latch]

Nobody knows really

[desert agate]

that's not really how the ACW worked but I'm not exactly an expert on the topic myself

[unreal elbow]

I'm a guy who likes to listen to what people say

[manic latch]

I mean you can say Confederacy started everything with them seizing US forts within their borders

But Union was willing to fight against separation

[desert agate]

separation for what purpose

[manic latch]

Slavery

South was heavily reliant on it

Lincoln was against it. And he won so

[desert agate]

this is a conversation between two individuals who are wholly unqualified to discuss the topic

by extension nothing can realistically be gained from it

[manic latch]

Yeah we need US history expert

Should wait for Qwerty or Regal

Or Maka

[eternal veldt]

Call in those CSS Alabama fans, I'm sure they have great opinion on the matter

[desert agate]

boat

HMAS Yarra btw

It's so easy to think the Leanders/Rivers were so much bigger than they actually were

shame we never kept one of the rivers as a museum they put a lot of good service in

kept Vampire tho

and 2 of them are dive wrecks

HMAS Stuart in HK

showing off her Ikara

also the sinking of Torrens is used by foreign propagandists on a rather comedically regular basis

NK, Hezbollah, etc

Hezbollah actually claimed they'd sunk an Israeli ship using the footage

[eternal veldt]

Nugget and Kaoshiung Middleschoolers

[alpine onyx]

Won't deny the state of the 37mm beyond "could still be worse" and "better than nothing", but the talk about the 105mm is false (was still well fast enough to track aircraft at ranges that one would fire at), and 15cm AA talk is more of a meme than 37mm C30 AA talk

Though I do feel obliged to state that all BB AA in early 1941 sucked ass

[lost ravine]

To the topic of culture and the ACW. Yes the Union won the war but the South fought hard after to keep their culture alive. Even to the point that Hollywood in its early days was painting the South as a noble force. Watch a lot of the old cowboy movies it usually has a former southerner fighting against either still in or was in the Union corrupt and only wanting money while the Southerner is just doing what he can to live a simple life. So was the South culture conquered?

[alpine onyx]

The NorCals were still running around with 50cal machine guns at that time, and would not get 20mm weapons until ~ a year later

[desert agate]

the sons and daughters of the confederacy have worked tirelessly to ensure that the South and its ideas of the war can survive

[eternal veldt]

Don't remind me of RN AA...

[desert agate]

the lost cause myth isnt going away any time soon

[desert agate]

HACS

[manic latch]

Ah Birth of a Nation movie yeah

[eternal veldt]

Queen Bee drone above the entire Mediterranean Fleet for one fucking hour with nothing stopping it

[lost ravine]

Man I hated watching that movie.

[desert agate]

[manic latch]

It was revolutionary for it's time however

Since most movies were uhh 5 mins at max

[lost ravine]

Was our first movie for my America in Film class.

[manic latch]

Naturally yeah

It was first of its kind

[lost ravine]

And caused a lot of change in the US. KKK back and accepted by the masses.

It's a little surprising at times that the US hasn't had a 2nd Civil War. The US is so divided on many issues and yet it still works.

[manic latch]

Tempting the devil?

[lost ravine]

Could be. I do wonder how the late 2010s and early 2020s will be recorded in history.

[alpine onyx]

RN AA, aka, we can't be bothered to use fire control, let's recommend tracer rounds for the heavy AA and then Mk1 eyeball it

[sullen canyon]

Please don't tempt fate like that

[strong plank]

the end of the post cold war period

in terms of dividing history into periods, I always find it interesting that the 90s are in this awkward, in-between spot

cold war ends in '91 and the gwot starts in '01

in between you have somalia, kosovo

[desert agate]

INTERFET:

[lost ravine]

My early childhood. It's this time where the world seemed safe. The fear of war was over. We were on the fast track of advancing as a society as technology was exploding into everyday life.

[strong plank]

can't say I relate

early 2000s kid

I don't think any of us realized how little time separated the end of the cold war and our birth

[manic latch]

Best times to live was 1960-70s

[strong plank]

hell I was born 2002

[lost ravine]

I'm a 92 child.

[autumn sorrel]

I only remember 2000s as pretty hard time

[strong plank]

the gwot was already underway by the time I came along

[desert agate]

mmm polio

mmm vietnam

[manic latch]

Ok maybe not

[desert agate]

mmm asbestos

[strong plank]

it was just something we accepted as a fact of life

[autumn sorrel]

Not a a best time for Vietnamese that one

[lost ravine]

I remember still when 9/11 happened. Was sitting in class and the teacher turned on the TV. Saw a tower on fire. Then another tower with a fireball coming out of it later on.

[desert agate]

personally I grew up with images of Afghanistan and constant fearmongering of South East Asian immigration

the GFC, terror threats, etc

[strong plank]

what I always find interesting is

the textbooks and curriculum of our history classes barely pushes into the 90s

you hit the end of the cold war and then it talks about globalization and technology

[autumn sorrel]

The 90s is wild, I tell you that

[strong plank]

no gulf war, no balkans, no somalia

I'm sure it's different now

[desert agate]

our text books ended at like... WW2 or early Cold War

[autumn sorrel]

Good thing about USSR fall is that the hardline Vietnamese communist get their power challenge and make way for reformer

[strong plank]

but it must have been just recent enough that new books had yet to be published

or they had but the school board didn't think it was important enough to replace

[desert agate]

tbf I was going through early high school during the whole 100 years since WW1 thing and basically the whole country was caught up in it so a solid year of high school history was just WW1

then i had a year of WW2

[autumn sorrel]

tbf, how do you teach about the balkan in the 90s, it so chaotic that it nearly impossible to make a coherent text

[desert agate]

and I dont even remember what the other year was

[lost ravine]

It depends. The education system has to deem it worth adding in. Which wars and conflicts does seem to be more removed from k-12 schools. Be still talk about the main ones but the little ones they won't.

[strong plank]

it's always interesting though

[autumn sorrel]

My history class was repeat 3 time for 3 levels, it teach the same thing, just more detail overtime

[strong plank]

growing up it always felt like most conflicts were behind us

[desert agate]

I remember doing ancient China in primary school tho

[desert agate]

Francis Fukuyama:

[strong plank]

then you realize the soviets fell only 11 years before you were born

[lost ravine]

If I recall for school was like up to 5th grade be a mixture of home state and US history. 6th was world history. 7&8th US. 9/10 world. 11th US.

[desert agate]

ayyy good old 02

[strong plank]

and that 4 years before you were born your dad was in kosovo

and a year after you're born your country's troops were rolling into iraq

[manic latch]

What was the longest "peace" period of US?

[lost ravine]

I remember waiting for Iraq to happen. Had that one space shuttle disaster beforehand so when the TV went to breaking news for that we thought it was war with Iraq.

[desert agate]

I was born mere months before the Bali bombings

so a good chunk of my childhood was all about that

[lost ravine]

Bombings & mass shootings was a lot of my 2000s I recall.

[manic latch]

Ah early 1800s

[strong plank]

there's been about 15-20 years total in US history when we haven't been at war

[manic latch]

Yeah greens are no war

[strong plank]

usually because we're involved in multiple that overlap

the revolution, the indian wars

[desert agate]

Bali was something else

We've always had an idea of national invulnerability probably to an even greater degree than the US

[sullen canyon]

Yes, America being the War Hawk of the world since 1776

[desert agate]

only once in our history has a foreign enemy actually attacked mainland Australia

so when Bali happened it kind of brought the war on terror all that much closer to home

[strong plank]

my favorite US war has to be the second barbary war

[lost ravine]

It's crazy how fast that sense of safety could be gone.

[strong plank]

which lasted 3 days

[manic latch]

Meanwhile France. Since 1337, there were 174 years without a single war where France was involved.

[desert agate]

since it was clear that this wasn't just a far away conflict for Americans and everyone else to deal with

[tribal mortar]

[sullen canyon]

We just took over France's job there mostly

[desert agate]

and then basically nothing happened until 2014

but there was a lot of racism so yknow

good times i guess

[strong plank]

"so you're an american? name every war"

[manic latch]

Mexico next

[lost ravine]

Indian Wars. That covers most of them.

[manic latch]

Ironic that hardest battle US ever fought was the Civil war

Having most deaths to it

[lost ravine]

I mean you count both sides so easier to do.

[strong plank]

yeah the civil war was a boiling over the slavery debate

[desert agate]

Wikipedias judgement of what counts as a war is a little dodgy truth be told

since on the Australian page it lists the Berlin Airlift as a war

[strong plank]

the founding fathers hadn't really been explicit about slavery in the US

[lost ravine]

About 2% of the US population gone in 4 years.

[strong plank]

since they needed states to actually ratify the constitution

[manic latch]

This was the peaceful war plan but Lincoln didn't choose to fully follow some reason. Only blocked the shipping routes

[strong plank]

they'd assumed slavery as an institution wouldn't survive much longer but then along comes eli whitney

[lost ravine]

And the culture that slave owners had. Owning a slave was status.

[manic latch]

Yeah more slaves the better

Cotton being king

[strong plank]

I mean it was the cotton gin that made the practice actually economically viable

[manic latch]

Union blocking cotton trade was a big blow to their economy

[strong plank]

the gov isn't able to rule one way or the other so they kept kicking the can further down the road with the missouri compromise and kansas-nebraska act

kansas-nebraska act ends up causing more political turmoil

[lost ravine]

The South had nothing else really on the foreign market to offer aside from cotton. Which while the war was happening Egypt and India had booms as their main rival was gone.

[strong plank]

finally lincoln gets elected

[lost ravine]

Ah the burning of Kansas.

[strong plank]

and his election made a lot of states mad

tends to be a theme these days

[manic latch]

South had no Industry for things like navy as well. So they tried to buy ships from Royal Navy but British seeing Union winning didn't allowed to not ruin relationships

[strong plank]

with the british it was also

they didn't want to be seen as supporting the slavery side of the war

[sullen canyon]

The South was mostly just a Plantation type of economy since most of the industrial setup was in the Northern States at that time

[strong plank]

they'd abolished slavery in the 1830s

[lost ravine]

They got what CSS Alabama and another from the UK? And that was it.

[manic latch]

Virginia was captured from Union

Or Union wreck

[strong plank]

I mean some folks tout the whole "states rights" line

and I guess to some extent they're not incorrect

[lost ravine]

State rights to what?

Exactly

[strong plank]

as you can form a historical narrative

[sullen canyon]

The Civil War did cause West Virginia to become its own State from it

[strong plank]

but that wasn't the reason why the war was launched

[manic latch]

I'm talking about the ship

[strong plank]

it did however see a shift in how the country was run

[sullen canyon]

Also, back then it was more States First, and Country Second

[strong plank]

"These United States" became "The United States"

[manic latch]

Virginia and Monitor fought for 3 hours without sinking each other

[strong plank]

so in a sense, if you're writing a book you could make a point that the period had an underlying theme of states v federal gov

[strong plank]

but to say that's what the war was about is dishonest at best

[manic latch]

Chad sloped armor vs chad turret

[sullen canyon]

I feel like it was either poor aimming, or then using the wrong kind of ammo against their hull type

[lost ravine]

Meanwhile the turret of the monitor.

Ammo mainly was the issue.

[strong plank]

the "right" kind of ammo didn't exist yet

[manic latch]

During this era

Hits are very hard to get
Reload takes minutes
Penetration is trash

[lost ravine]

They hit each other alot.

[strong plank]

you were still throwing cannonballs at one another

[sullen canyon]

And it would just be like a minor dent or something in the hull right?

[lost ravine]

Practically

[desert agate]

when was the first shell gun invented

[sullen canyon]

Reminded of this now

[autumn sorrel]

Wow, is that the Monitor?

[manic latch]

@spring briar

[manic latch]

Yup

[lost ravine]

Both ships also got a lot of angles so it was hard actually get it to soild hit on each other to not bounce.

[autumn sorrel]

Hey Krem, I give you steampunk US navy

[strong plank]

1820s? it looks like

[manic latch]

Based

[lost ravine]

Have you heard of our good friend USS Wolverine?

[strong plank]

first adopted by the french in the 1840s

[autumn sorrel]

Dystopian war game

[lost ravine]

Paddle boat CV.

[strong plank]

USS Vesuvius, the third ship of the United States Navy named for the Italian volcano, was a unique vessel in the Navy inventory which marked a departure from more conventional forms of main battery armament. She is considered a dynamite gun cruiser and was essentially an operational testbed for large dynamite guns.

[sullen canyon]

It's not Scythe is it?

[autumn sorrel]

No

[lost ravine]

Wish they kept one of those around. Be so cool to see.

[strong plank]

first breech-loading, rifled naval gun was 1850s-60s

[eternal veldt]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paixhans_gun

[manic latch]

Weird that she feels fake

Despite being real

[eternal veldt]

A couple wooden ship of the lines were used as targets against the 22cm Canon-obusiers invented by Paixhans in 1824

[autumn sorrel]

Wait what?

[eternal veldt]

The ships did not fare well.

[lost ravine]

Uss Wolverine

[eternal veldt]

There is aso USS Sable.

[strong plank]

wolverine was a steamer on the great lakes

the navy bought her and gave her a flattop to train pilots

[lost ravine]

Runways was shorter than the escort CVs navy figured if pilots can fly off of them then they'll be good everywhere else.

[autumn sorrel]

Oh, training ship

[manic latch]

Say

Why Des Moines didn't use 127mm/54

Too large for her I assume

[autumn sorrel]

Also Krem, "USSR" steampunk carrier task force

[lost ravine]

It came out about 5 years after the ship.

[autumn sorrel]

I don't know why but I just love the steampunk-esque design

[manic latch]

Nah I'm speaking about the Montana and Midway's /54

Midway use single Montana would used twin

[maiden citrus]

ironic since they, off of paper, did for cheap economics, the 1833 british law also ended slavery over time, not abolishing it, for example slavery was still legal in british india after that

though for kremlin's credit, one of the nations that supported the union the most was russia

[maiden citrus]

weight most likely, ships like montana and midway are very large and the weight mattered little

[manic latch]

Calculation was shit I forgot alot but

6 5/38 weights much as 4 5/54

What make /38 great was actually its weight if you ask me

Which also makes traverse easier

[maiden citrus]

yeah, it was a very sweet spot, you could make it more powerful for either aa or surface, but it sacrifices

[quick shard]

Dats a flat lookin deck

[cerulean ice]

One can say "unification", another "Prussia establishing their dominance over the Germanosphere"
(It was called Prussia rather than Germany not without a reason)

And specifically because it was only less than 50 years prior, and also internally there were still administrative separations based on some of the previous duchies/states/entities

(only during Hitler did the last of those were actually removed)

There could be still a chunk of older nobility and leaders that would know of the time before Prussian overlordship

And there is hundreds of years of "Germany" functioning as not-Holy not-Roman not-Empire loose federation

They have more history as autonomic smaller political entities than as a singular country at that point in history

And for Prussian re-establishing dominance, part of their rise to power that put them in position to expand their control over the western German states was 1. Getting a significant part of Poland during Dissolutions 2. Getting Upper Silesia from Austria in a war.

And after WW1 they would lose both

They would probably still retain their major position they worked for for the past 2 centuries, but I just think it is not as cut and dry and re-germanising german lands isn't totally improbably for the times

[manic latch]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/navy-carrier-based-drones-will-be-able-to-be-controlled-by-the-air-force

[storm echo]

which was the true best IJN ship?

there's people that fanboy over Yamato

oh yeah, by the way, the Yamato and Shokaku class were actually part of the same ship construction programme of somesorts

anyways

what I think the true best IJN was, is Zuikaku

one of the best service histories I've read through

[autumn sorrel]

Are you sure it isn’t just you simping for her?

[manic latch]

This guy speaks like AI

[tight notch]

Yes.

[manic latch]

I say Haruna was best for IJN

Haruna fought in almost every major naval action of the Pacific Theater during World War II.

Very experienced and useful

[tight notch]

[storm echo]

I say "best IJN ship"

Kaga was slow

Soryuu and Hiryuu were, small compared to the Shokaku class

Akagi is uhhhh

[eternal veldt]

Yukikaze and Shigure, for sinking every ship she escorted

[storm echo]

in a nutshell, I like the Shokaku class

[eternal veldt]

Great contributor to the war effort

[storm echo]

fast and big

34 knots for an aircraft carrier quite crazy

the average is around 30 knots

[eternal veldt]

Not really. The Essexs were capable of hitting this high speed as well.

[storm echo]

some 28 knots

[storm echo]

yeah, the essex class were marvels aswell

[eternal veldt]

Kaga was the slowest of the entire Kido Butai. The only merit she has going is plane capacity.

Everything else about her is very no.

[storm echo]

indeed

she also looked very tall, being a battleship conversion

[eternal veldt]

Most carriers are absurdly tall.

[storm echo]

yeah true

[eternal veldt]

By virtue of a two storied hangar.

Unless you are Shinano, who is so far into the construction that adding a two storied hangar will just make her die.

[quick shard]

you guys know anything about Alsace?

the battleship

[eternal veldt]

What would you like to know?

[tight notch]

I heard.

[eternal veldt]

Personally, ignoring all the concerning stuff they've done, I personally like the smaller ships these days - the true overworked bunch of the navy.

[manic latch]

Being expandable makes them most effective

[eternal veldt]

Capitals can only do so much if your logistics and its escorts commit harakiri

The Ises are the ones I love to mock about

Ah yes, Aviation battleship? Right. No planes for you. Now shut the fuck up and carry as much oil as you can from the SEA back to Japan like a glorified oil tanker you are.

[manic latch]

I really hate Fuso since

You go effort of hardcore refits then

Do nothing

[eternal veldt]

Fusou has the issue of literally the first homemade dreadnoughts with very little deck space

Ise just kinda fucks it up even harder with crew accomodation

[delicate beacon]

Japanese ships in general were rather poor on accomodation iirc

[quick shard]

IJN just displays yamato to scare the US,failed by helldivers

[eternal veldt]

Sang, spartan, sure, but not inhospitable or extremely cramped level bad

except a few

"For financial reasons more powerful engines could not be ordered so the new design was lengthened slightly and the boiler rooms enlarged to increase speed by 0.5 knots (0.93 km/h; 0.58 mph) to 23 knots (43 km/h; 26 mph). To save weight the forecastle deck was shortened so that the lower midships gun turret was lower than in the Fusō class. This reduced the crew's accommodations despite a significant increase in the crew's numbers and naval historian Fukui Shizuo believed that these ships had the worst habitability of any Japanese capital ship."

You know it's bad when Kaga's fucking 40 degree celsius crew space doesn't get to be the #1 in Fukui's list

Or Jun'you's "no tables, bring your own mat to dinner lol" fireproofing rules

[manic latch]

Wrong

Yamato is kept secret from US long as possible

US didn't even know she had 460mms

[quick shard]

Hmm she was found heading to Okinawa right?

[manic latch]

For defense of Okinawa yes

[delicate beacon]

Compared to the Dutch the amenities are terrible though. Not to mention the lack of tropical suitability.

[manic latch]

Dutch liked comfort I guess

[eternal veldt]

Well, like I said, spartan

[quick shard]

was Missouri perhaps,in Okinawa?

[eternal veldt]

They had rough estimates by 1944-1945.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-084.php

[delicate beacon]

Turns out if your crew is healthy and energetic they perform better

[eternal veldt]

health and comfort? Ew, filthy western imperialist

Just beat your crew harder for every minor infraction they did, not like they can blow up your ship or commit atrocities or anything!

[delicate beacon]

Flogging continues untill morale improves.

[eternal veldt]

120 lashes for you

....That said, the officer quarters of Yamato are well known to be comfortable, and Nugget's mess is....alright, I guess?

[quick shard]

Welcome to The IJN Yamato hotel

[autumn sorrel]

IJN copy RN draconian discipline but miss out on the humanitarian part afterwards

[eternal veldt]

meanwhile, Howe:

and as well, I suppose

[zealous vine]

Can someone direct me to the website that has these crisp drawings of US ships?

[manic latch]

Crispy critters

[zealous vine]

Nvm got it

[quick shard]

Wat dat ship?

[zealous vine]

North Carolina

[quick shard]

didn't recognize the bow

[zealous vine]

[eternal veldt]

How crisp do you want? I have an entire folder full of several US ships.

If you are curious what's inside the ship, you can also see it right there.

Enough details to make a man bust a nut.

oh fuck, I forgot to add Helena's into it

[neon oyster]

Mmm

[zealous vine]

I specifically want those of this style

If it's not too much of a favour too, preferably DM me, if there are any, of other major navies too (KMS, IJN, RN, RM, MN)

[eternal veldt]

Also, Haida's booklet of general plans, if anyone is interested.

[eternal veldt]

https://www.navypedia.org/ships_index.htm try here.

sorry for ping.

[zealous vine]

Thanks 👍

Don't mind the ping (oh and I appreciate the booklet collections, they're a god send)

[eternal veldt]

If you really need a certain fixed style

then I suggest finding Conway's 1922-1946 All the World's Fighting Ships

standardized to a T.

[zealous vine]

[fleet summit]

Just finished WW1

Kinda sad ngl

Though I did like how Franz Ferdinand knew that the Serbia hated him and he still decided to visit

Not the smartest idea but hey it's whatever he wanted I wonder how different things would be if he didn't die and still was the leader of Austria

[delicate beacon]

Looks like Jane's

[eternal veldt]

Jane's a bit more shagged - was thinking ONI.

Neither of which are credible with the knowledge of hindsight.

[quick shard]

The kriegsmarine has a ton of paper plans for ships

[eternal veldt]

It's all die-joubu

[quick shard]

Bruh why does it look like a Japanese toy product description

[autumn sorrel]

Prob keep the empire alive for few more decades, the Balkn still gonna be a mess though but unless something too drastic happen like after his death then Russia don’t have much reason to declare war and drag their allies into war with them.

[storm echo]

I'd like to settle a debate.

which was the best ship of the Kido butai?

[autumn sorrel]

On that alternate history note, brit and german naval arm race prob still gonna happen regardless but they prob will reach something like the London naval treaty after realize how costly the race is becoming

[fleet summit]

I dunno maybe the black hand would still try to get him

[autumn sorrel]

None, they all sunk

[eternal veldt]

Define best.

Akagi's torpedo squadron was excellent, and so was the 2nd CarDiv's dive bombing squadrons.

Them together as a cohesive unit was why the force was destructive.

[storm echo]

true, it does depend on your stand point

[autumn sorrel]

Probably, they still will do assassination to the Austrian higher up but with the right policy then the extremist cause will alienate the public at large

[storm echo]

I'd say Akagi and Kaga were the best in terms of air superiority, they were the original after all

[eternal veldt]

Most English pulbications I've seen credit Hiryu with the destruction of Arizona, but others credit a pilot on Soryu instead.

[storm echo]

though, I'd say the Shokaku and Zuikaku were the best in terms of design

Zuikaku probably had most, interesting service history of them all

the Shokaku class was much superior to Akagi and Kaga imo

[eternal veldt]

...Two were literally built from the keel up as carriers

[storm echo]

in terms of design that is.

[eternal veldt]

the other two are conversions from existing hulls

[storm echo]

indeed

[eternal veldt]

Of course the one designed from the keels up are better.

[storm echo]

though, the 1st carrrier division had better pilots

[eternal veldt]

The four earlier carriers had enough time and space to train while operating off the Chinese coast.

Even then, their initial operations were not that impressive until later stages.

[storm echo]

also, what would the war have been like if Shinano and Taiho were both actually reliable?

[eternal veldt]

Zuikek had a couple workers die inside her due to toxic and dark working conditions, and nearly drowned from a typhoon, if you want interesting tidbits.

[storm echo]

what if Zuikaku had managed to successfully sink enterprise?

[autumn sorrel]

Taiho maybe but shinano was a bad investment from the start

[eternal veldt]

Irrelevant. Taihou's air group got chewed up anyway

[storm echo]

horrible damage control

[eternal veldt]

By 1944, the aviators of the IJN are simply not going to stand up against the US counterparts.

[autumn sorrel]

Tbf, new and untrained crew

[eternal veldt]

Shinano is debatable. You have a 50% complete hull sitting at your dock.

You can either convert it, or take it apart for scrap metal.

The former route is faster.

[autumn sorrel]

Scrap it to make more AT gun

[eternal veldt]

Hull No.111/Kii, however, was a braindead choice. 30% complete.

Scrap it, use it to feed the Unryus.

[quick shard]

guys wats the best rations

[autumn sorrel]

Russian mountain MRE

[quick shard]

Overated

[eternal veldt]

and I'd argue that poor damage control was the second poor decision that sealed Taihou's fate

in the haste to launch the second attack squadron, the commander ordered the broken elevator deck be sealed up with whatever materials are available on hand, while avgas is spreading throughout the ship.

[autumn sorrel]

Depend, I like the Pate and my pallet is relatively similar to russian anyway

[quick shard]

design kinda flawed and is a termite

[eternal veldt]

They did exactly that, and you have the fans running at full speed spreading the gas everywhere.

[storm echo]

doesn't seem like a smart decision to me

[chilly osprey]

Likely not, tbh. The Germans actually gave up on trying to match the British before WWI, because it became clear to them that British construction was going to keep outstripping them by a significant margin.

[quick shard]

it's because Russian mre ain't thesame

[eternal veldt]

In hindsight, sure.

If you want to create a massive air attack to oversaturate enemy defenses, then a second attack squadron underway as soon as possible would be ideal.

[autumn sorrel]

I like US MRE somewhat more but I can’t stand their vegan menu

Seriously though, what with US MRE and burito, and gulasch as well

[eternal veldt]

If you want to play blame games, then perhaps the first place should be given to poor ASW of the Japanese and allowing Taihou to be hit in the first place.

[quick shard]

Yikes,il go peel some potatoes instead

[eternal veldt]

or, if you're more a tinfoil hat conspirist, blame it on the poor welding of the avgas tanks of Taihou, which the chief designer himself admitted may be a possibility during a lecture at MIT.

[autumn sorrel]

Beat Chinese MRE anyway, a bit too bland

[eternal veldt]

As for Shinano, she was not even complete when she was sunk.

Nor was she your average standard fleet carrier. Like many said here before, the concept of her is a "floating airbase" - something more akin to HMS Unicorn.

[autumn sorrel]

Does shinano can even work as a fleet carrier, she is just a glorify aircraft transport

[eternal veldt]

she could carry ~120 unassembled plane kits, but with only 47 planes ready to go.

Granted, she could assemble them on the spot, but that's not her main thing.

[autumn sorrel]

Pretty small air group for her tonage

[eternal veldt]

She also carried aviation armament in her barbettes - those were not removed.

[quick shard]

ahh don't start with dat rice;-;

[eternal veldt]

Well yea, like I said, 50% complete, up to the main deck, I believe

[autumn sorrel]

Rice is fine, it is army standard

[eternal veldt]

with the war rapidly deteriorating, no time to do any kind of extensive work

just glue a single-storey hangar and a massive fuck off flight deck on it, it'll be fine

send her to the frontlines ASAP

then Yukikaze kills her

[autumn sorrel]

Man, IJN and their inefficient system

[eternal veldt]

I don't think efficiency has anything to do here

Midway was quite a blow that the Japanese sought to recover from hard

[autumn sorrel]

Didn’t shinano was hastily convert after midway

[storm echo]

I'd say resources

and midway

[eternal veldt]

And even if they have carriers/planes, they simply don't have the men

three nearly completely Unryus were shoved into reserve because there are no aviators to crew them

[autumn sorrel]

And it circle back to their pilot program

[eternal veldt]

Fucking with the US long term is just not going to work

[storm echo]

the 5th carrier division had Good ships, but less experienced crew.

[eternal veldt]

not especially when the US basically shits on your entire merchant navy as well

doubly so when they finally unfucked the Mark 14

[fleet summit]

Hey arch

We're learning about the great depression though rn

[autumn sorrel]

IMO, what fucking them up the most is IJN tendency to drawn up complicated plan and their rigid adhere to doctrine

[fleet summit]

Tbh I like how Germany does all this cool regain stuff and Russia is just sitting in the chair doing nothing

They did have they're problems but weren't hit

[eternal veldt]

tfw you want a kantai kessen

"Ok, here's Midway"

"I said the REAL kantai kessen"
"Ok, here's Phillippines Sea"
"Really?"
"Yea, here's Leyte too."

[fleet summit]

Kantai is kinda mid

[autumn sorrel]

Great Depression hit Weimar hard, USSR at the time was so cut off from international trade that the crash doesn’t matter much to them anyway

[fleet summit]

Lore wise

[eternal veldt]

This is partly due to Tsushima.

[fleet summit]

Yeah lol

[eternal veldt]

An exhausted enemy moving into positions easily predictable and interceptable.

We got our great success that way, so it shall work for all of our upcoming battles.

[quick shard]

HEY WTH

[autumn sorrel]

Mahan advocates for decisive battle to control the sea, IJN think they just need to win one great battle to force US into talk

[eternal veldt]

Well, the decisive battle was expected to break enemy morale and convince the enemy that further conflict is ineffective and should not be done.

Slight issue: The US wants the emperor hanged after they did the funni at Pearl Harbor.

oops.

[autumn sorrel]

Which work for the Czar bc it was his private war but dif when you anger the entire nation

[eternal veldt]

Don't want to lose, don't bomb pearl harbor.

[fleet summit]

Hey no spoilers

I'm not there yet silver

We're barley learning how it was resolved

[autumn sorrel]

Should have hang the entire royal family, fucking McArthur

[quick shard]

goodnight history Fam!

[eternal veldt]

no, hang McCunter first

Man's incompetence was crucial in the rapid falls of the Philippines

Basically being unreachable when command was needed from him

[fleet summit]

Reeeeee

[autumn sorrel]

Read about him blame the USN detachment when they literally fought tooth and nail to the sea, bloody cunt

[eternal veldt]

Then draw and quarter him for his treatment towards PoW

"I will delay the rescue of PoWs because I have a massive ego and I want all the media attention of the surrender ceremony"

die.

[autumn sorrel]

At least Halsey was competent

[eternal veldt]

By marginal luck imo

Samar could have gone very very wrong

and his little Typhoon accident

[autumn sorrel]

Halsey greatest sin will away be Taffy 3

[eternal veldt]

Don't worry, it's just a storm

Wait, it's a typhoon

oh fuck 3 DDs capsized

RIP Spence

[autumn sorrel]

Who next to rip apart?

Prob Patton for me

[eternal veldt]

Patton has that Biscari thing and slapping for me, certainly not a fan of him for me

On the contrary, perhaps we should talk about some praiseworthy ones, but I don't have any on mind right now.

Langsdorf on Spee IIRC was a good fellow, but I don't know him much other than sparing the crew of any further bloodshed at River Plate, and actually following prize rules.

more Sirene's territory.

[autumn sorrel]

I think Teddy Jr, both him and his father seem to love being soldier and love their unit

[maiden citrus]

given wrong data, don't really think it was his fault at that point

[eternal veldt]

I think he still persisted in ordering ships to stay in formation until quite late?

[maiden citrus]

further combat will only be ineffective when our navy so eclipses yours they cannot find targets

[eternal veldt]

something something Fleet at Flood Tide

[frigid karma]

just stan spruance

When New Mexico was struck by two kamikaze on the night of 12 May 1945 a hasty search by Spruance's staff found the Admiral manning a fire hose amidship. Determining that New Mexico was not too badly damaged to remain on station Spruance kept her as his flagship for the rest of the campaign.

[quick shard]

Gahd wtf this maintenance is long asffff

[eternal veldt]

@manic latch Oi. For you.

[manic latch]

Holy fucking Kron

Thank you

[golden spindle]

Didn’t her hull almost get done before they scrapped her

[delicate beacon]

Scharnhorst but with Bismarck seconadries

Is this an O-class

[quick shard]

looks like general had a history session

[delicate beacon]

They usually have an alternate history session.

[quick shard]

Ye but i prefer this one

[eternal veldt]

No, it's Soviet Gouden Leeuw.

[quick shard]

wat ship is dat?

[eternal veldt]

Kronshtadt.

[quick shard]

looks like soyuz

[eternal veldt]

Not quite. Kron was only 5% complete.

For comparison, Soyuz was around...20%?

[storm echo]

I

do not know what to say

[quick shard]

WAT

[delicate beacon]

Shinano was a luxurious tanker.

[lapis delta]

Russian navy "and then it got worse"

[manic latch]

%10*

[quick shard]

Your joking right?

[manic latch]

Kronshtadt construction was kept slow since

They were waiting the guns from Germans

The 380mms

[storm echo]

google pulled this up on me

[quick shard]

Lies

[frigid karma]

she was an aircraft carrier

i don't see what's wrong

[storm echo]

the worst one that is.

[frigid karma]

Google just looks for the biggest one and calls it a day

[delicate beacon]

It's just that the answer isn't for the question posed.

[eternal veldt]

It was the US Naval Attache's estimate, but fair enough.

[frigid karma]

and to be fair, I can think of a few carriers worse than shinano

[manic latch]

Yes, its possible Soviets did this to cause more confusion on enemy. Similar to how Hipper looks like Bismarck from far

[storm echo]

Taiho just had a fatal flaw and bad DMC

[delicate beacon]

It's more convergent design than confusion.

[quick shard]

lol from hipper class to H class

[storm echo]

Shinano on the other hand

[eternal veldt]

still, no good.

[lapis delta]

Well hood and pow shot at Prinz Eugen first, thinking she was the Bismarck, so.... I guess it worked

[eternal veldt]

Sevastopol (Kronshtadt class No.2) was even more lol,lmao.

[quick shard]

well its the silhouette the same right?

[manic latch]

She was scrapped by Germans

[lapis delta]

"The lead ship has to be the Bismarck!" iirc

[eternal veldt]

The main reason why Hood engaged Prinz Eugen because the latest intelligence reports indicated that Bismarck was leading the squadron.

The two swapped places after Bismarck's gunfire disabled her forward radar.

This was not relayed over to Holland.

[quick shard]

well wat was better other than shinano?

[delicate beacon]

Did you know Bismarck's guns were so powerful they disabled her own radar!

[manic latch]

Holland?

[lapis delta]

Still most hilarious design flaw imo

[delicate beacon]

Holland the person. Not to be confused with the ship or county.

[eternal veldt]

Lancelot Holland, the commanding officer.

[lapis delta]

The shockwave cut the wires

[eternal veldt]

Also not a flaw inherent to Bismarck only.

[quick shard]

of hood right?

[eternal veldt]

Massachusetts and New Jersey both disabled their own radar by their own gun fire at some point. Do you call it a "hilarious design flaw" for them as well?

[manic latch]

Yes

[eternal veldt]

Yes.

[lapis delta]

They didn't do it every single time they shot tho

[manic latch]

Uhh

Bismarck didn't disable her radar during test fires

[quick shard]

wait wat happened to the other hipper classes

[eternal veldt]

Are you aware of how their radar gets disabled?

Bismarck was firing "over the beam" - at extreme angles.

[quick shard]

i know wat happened to blucher..

[chilly osprey]

Early electronics are very sensitive and radars being disabled by shock is not uncommon at all

[eternal veldt]

Most of the time, ships tend to fire directly broadside, contrary to what a video game will tell you.

When they don't do that, things get damaged.

[delicate beacon]

During many naval battles radio would just stop working every time a gun was fired.

[eternal veldt]

or worse, people get injured.

[chilly osprey]

Yep

[quick shard]

Ayy maintenance about to be over

[lapis delta]

Hipper - crammed by glowworm
Prinz Eugen - survived and turned over to the Americans, getting nuked
Blücher - sunk by coastal artillery

[frigid karma]

mostly one certain video game

[eternal veldt]

Rodney broke every lightbulb and allegedly every fucking forward urinal when she commenced fire on Bismarck.

[frigid karma]

and even then, sometimes it's better to fire flat broadside

[eternal veldt]

Her teak plating was also found to be in shambles.

Nelson, during gunnery trials, broke a lot of the bridge windows when firing not directly broadside.

[delicate beacon]

To be fair, that's what 9 16" guns in the same location does to a ship.

[eternal veldt]

Shockwaves are bad, and as Phoenix said, electronics are sensitive.

[chilly osprey]

Heck, big guns and modern radars don't mix to well either. This is why they couldn't give the Iowa's anything better than Stingers for air defense when she was modernizing in the 1980s

The types of radars needed to guided SAMs could not deal with the shock from 16" guns

[eternal veldt]

Or worse, you're a Yamato AA crew on an unshielded 25mm near the turrets

and you didn't hear the alarm for main guns going off because the ongoing action is too loud

[frigid karma]

wouldn't be the first time 46cm guns for aa purposes committed friendly fire

[eternal veldt]

You don't just get burst eardrums

you die

[manic latch]

Skin tearing Pressure ye

[eternal veldt]

It collapses your lungs

[frigid karma]

you know

i really want a warship equivalent of gunner, heat, pc

[eternal veldt]

But yes, Bismarck in that case was telling Norfolk to piss off - who wandered too near while shadowing the squadron.

Hence firing at extreme angles, and disabling her radar. Not exactly an inherent flaw, rather an unforunate incident.

[frigid karma]

even in a video where an abrams is doing nothing more than shooting T-72s at night without them firing back, the crew voices alone make it more immersive than any other tank simulator

imagine this but for a warship

[shrewd pecan]

I don't really think

you could pull off the gunner heat PC voices

with naval combat

[frigid karma]

yeah, its a lot slower

[manic latch]

100 AA gunner yelling

[frigid karma]

maybe you can switch between positions and hear the voices for each one

[manic latch]

Just put conning tower voices

[frigid karma]

i.e. you can switch directly to the AA crewmen but you lose situational awareness of the rest of the ship

[eternal veldt]

be me
stare at PC for 6 hours, watching my ship get to the small waypoint at a godawful 10 knots
suddenly shells in the dark just straight up trash your ship and you can't fight back, go back to the dockyard

epic simulation

[frigid karma]

or you see planes appear on the horizon and can do nothing as they slowly approach you at 100 knots

[eternal veldt]

or, just having a pleasure cruise and suddenly a US sub ruins your day

-Kongo

[frigid karma]

but i'm more talking about the sound effects

crew voices

[manic latch]

Qwerty ASMR

[frigid karma]

yes hearing people slowly burn alive in the fighting compartment

very relaxing

"oh my god, the tank is on fire"

[eternal veldt]

You're probably going to hear muffled screams if anything

those voice tubes get busted

[frigid karma]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v1_b_ICXK8&ab_channel=Bilate

context for anyone who hasn't seen ghpc

[shrewd pecan]

I really could just play GHPC over WT and be much happier with my life

[eternal veldt]

Break free from the snail

[shrewd pecan]

I don't have to deal with KA-50s dumping 6 VIKRs at me at once in GHPC

[frigid karma]

just play air

and die to F-14s

play rank ii ar

[shrewd pecan]

I am the F-14

[manic latch]

Turkish Pantsir for US tech tree

[shrewd pecan]

the peak

[manic latch]

T-80U and Abrams

[thorn trail]

Hold on so I'm reading rn on the sinking of Edinburgh and I'm wondering why the ship never just fired back and actually casted away her tow?

[delicate forge]

I'm trying to get it, but My PC is too Low-End for it

[manic latch]

"Although her guns were in disarray, she fired on the attacking German ships. Edinburgh's second salvo hit Hermann Schoemann, leaving her in a sinking condition"

[shut wren]

I can run it im just too poor

[thorn trail]

Yeah but why did she have to cut her tow as well?

[manic latch]

Avoid being sitting duck or smh

Goes circles instead

[thorn trail]

yeah wouldn't going in circles like make her more vulnerable than doing a steady course?

[manic latch]

Nah

[manic latch]

Japan carrier avoiding bombers for example

[frigid karma]

[thorn trail]

wait which carrier was this?

[frigid karma]

have you tried dive bombing anything before

or torpedo bombing anything

even in a game like wows

[thorn trail]

nope never played any of those games at all

[manic latch]

Soryu

[frigid karma]

it's pretty difficult to hit anything turning

general rule

when dive bombing you want the target to be head on to you

when torpedo bombing you want them to be broadsiding to you

[manic latch]

Going straight is one dimension calculation. Circle wants you two dimension

[frigid karma]

if you're turning, there's only one moment when you'll be broadside on/head on to the plane

which means either the enemy plane has to turn with you to find the optimal attack heading (no small feat given you're under constant aa and fighter attack and you're likely carrying hundreds to thousands of pounds of bombs)

or wait until you're at the right position (again, no small feat)

[shut wren]

^what he said

is dive bombing with a Tu-2 possible

with max load

[frigid karma]

It's a heavy bomber

i suppose you can dive with it, probably not for long

either you pull up pretty early or you keep dive bombing and you give up on the chance to pull up

[shut wren]

welp

time to jump out

[thorn trail]

didn't the germans want to make a heavy bomber as a dive bomber

[frigid karma]

to put on my richie hat

germans

[shut wren]

"USAAF manual"

Russian bomber tho

[frigid karma]

i'm sure it's very different

[frigid karma]

didn't edinburgh sink to mines?

[thorn trail]

no. sub attacked her, tried to limp back to port and got caught by destroyers and bombers

[frigid karma]

oh, right

she did fire back

[manic latch]

He-177 yes

She can dive bomb as I know

[thorn trail]

Why

[manic latch]

You mistake with Tu-4 I think

[thorn trail]

Why did Germans make almost all their bombers dive bombers

[manic latch]

Tu-2 is a frontline bomber

So it can dive easily

[frigid karma]

oh a tu-2, yeah probably

[shut wren]

Doctrine

[alpine onyx]

Dive bombing brought quick results early

And turned out to be something British Naval AA was utterly inept against

[manic latch]

Because dive-bombing offered better accuracy during this period of military aviation (and German bombsight technology was limited heading into the war)

[thorn trail]

it just seems funny to me that the Germans made everything a dive bomber, even their largest bombers

[manic latch]

Ju-87 experience

Dive bombers are accurate

That's why naval doesn't use carpet bombers

Usually

[alpine onyx]

Allows near pin point accuracy

They saw the concept in Spain, and then adopted it for their doctrine

The result worked very well in Poland and France, so they stuck with it

It also worked well against ships, they got two Tribals in the first months of the war with dive bombing attacks

[shut wren]

Tribals?

[wintry moat]

Tribal class destroyers

[shut wren]

i see

[eternal veldt]

Gurkha and Afridi?

[frigid karma]

Coolest tribal name

[eternal veldt]

Honestly, if there's one thing the RN is good at most of the time, it's picking names 😛

...Ignoring conventions and all that.

[wintry moat]

yeah

I prefer the British way of naming stuff

[shut wren]

they should just name it like

wait i dont think i can say this

[eternal veldt]

It has ups and downs.

the US system is easy enough to recognise and figure out a pattern.

RN.....fucking good luck with that, minus the ABCDEFGs.

[shut wren]

I like china's way of naming capital ships after provinces

[manic latch]

OTO Melara 60mm M113

It is

[ivory ridge]

Is it the Oto or the Israeli one

[delicate beacon]

Does it matter? All OTOs are Bofors ripoffs anyway.

[tough quail]

dutch kremlin strikes again

[spring briar]

[ivory ridge]

[manic latch]

[frigid karma]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/806338795666276352/1093562870979113000/efpj4gxwjbsa1.png

Tea okayed this

[ivory ridge]

[frigid karma]

Lay thine eyes upon xi’s towel and plate

[remote monolith]

amog

[frigid karma]

why the removal of the crane

[spring briar]

No boats

[shrewd pecan]

its the Israeli one

at least the vehicle is the Israeli one

[ivory ridge]

Yeah thought so

Then again the 60mm kinda started as a join project

Iirc

I dont remember the details

[shrewd pecan]

its the Israeli M113 with the 60 MM so its safe to assume its the Israeli one

[frigid karma]

"what fool will sell us his secrets?"

old reference

[shut wren]

Bruh why tf did they collect this

[tough quail]

and then learned absolutely nothing from it because a T-80U is still better than any challenger variant

[shut wren]

Also,QWERTY in the PLA museum?

[shut wren]

Elaborate

[tough quail]

's what it says on the tin

[frigid karma]

they probably did, but britain be britain

especially post 45 britain

[tough quail]

better gun, better protection, better weight and mobility

i guess chally's got better thermals later

but thats basically it

[shut wren]

[tough quail]

tbf this is a more recent british thing

the last time the british got a gotcha like this was the t-54 in hungary

which led to gods gift to NATO the L7

[shut wren]

How long would it take to reverse engineer a type 2 civilization spaceship

[shrewd pecan]

Chally 2 vs a T-80U no beyond the weight part

in terms of the British rifled 120 MM and the 125 it’s a toss up

tho the British gun doesn’t really have the same limitations as the T-80s autoloader puts on the gun

[tough quail]

🤨

yes on all fronts

[shrewd pecan]

If it’s going to crack a chally 2 it’s going to crack a T-80U

[tough quail]

challenger 2s are fat, slow barges with terrible protection schemes

[cinder escarp]

CR2 has no hull armor at all lmao, and no mantlet. The turret cheeks are the only good parts of the scheme.

[tough quail]

yeah

you are hilariously wrong on this

[shrewd pecan]

man I’d give it to you if it was a T-80BVM

but T-80U nah

[tough quail]

nope, it's just a T-80U

[cinder escarp]

and I'm personally involved in the CR2 leaks so I'd know about that mantlet issue

[shrewd pecan]

🤨 the T-80s mantlet isn’t even that well protected either

[tough quail]

its less huge

the tank by large is much lower profile and has actual hull armor

especially bad if we keep in mind not all ammo in existence is built to get through K5 either

then it's just sad to be in a challenger

[manic latch]

British still pissed about selling Rolls-Royce RB.41 Nene engines to Soviet Union?

[cinder escarp]

tfw I put fake declassified stamps on my document

[shrewd pecan]

the infamous

[manic latch]

So about this Abrams graph

Where is current Chal 2 level

[shrewd pecan]

maximum protection SEP 3

oh heavier than that

[cinder escarp]

In terms of weight off the chart

84 US tons in TES standard

[shrewd pecan]

I’m just of the opinion I’d rather be in the Chally 2 than the T-80U

[cinder escarp]

tfw internal opinion was that CR2 is crap

[manic latch]

Dunno man. Chal 2 doesn't have blowout panels

While stronger turret face its bigger

[cinder escarp]

I don't have one for CR2... but here's CR1's weight breakdown. CR2 uses the same hull and a heavier turret made of worse steel.

[shrewd pecan]

Historically chally 2s have had far less of a tendency of having the turret go to space

I also have actual fire control systems to work with

[tough quail]

de fune turret explod

dat mean tenk bad

[manic latch]

Hmm

[tough quail]

all the rigorous protracted combat challenger 2s have been in like

[shrewd pecan]

that was the tank being scuttled

[tough quail]

five minutes of jihadi plinking

[manic latch]

So flying turret is fine when it's scuttled

[shrewd pecan]

wasn’t that the bulk of the T-80Us until recently as well

[tough quail]

your tank is shit

flap supremacy

[shrewd pecan]

tho I would rather be in a T-80 than a challenger 1 to be fair

[tough quail]

stand by for my hip tank girl gacha tier list

i mean dont get me wrong, i like chally 2s because they're incredibly

[shrewd pecan]

Once the T-80 gets actual fire control then my opinion switches around so T-80BVM > chally 2

[tough quail]

incredibly aesthetic

best looking mbt in service atm by a mile

probably my third favorite tank in general

[tough quail]

but i know when to say it's shit next to its competitors

and boy howdy does it suck ass compared to a T-80U

[cinder escarp]

During the great dig on challenger info, even went down to metallurgy.

[shrewd pecan]

idk I’m just of the opinion that I’m more likely to win in a chally 2 than I am in a T-80U

[tough quail]

unfortunately that's not the truth

[cinder escarp]

I've got pages of this stuff in my DMs with Korv.

[tough quail]

and there's much more to being a good tank than "can i win this 1v1 joust"

[shrewd pecan]

as in I actually have modern fire control systems to usually get the first shot off and actually win the engagement

[manic latch]

Real man use T-80 with 152mm if you gonna do 1v1

[sleek folio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgvB9aW98z8

oh wow that's war

not a wikipedia page

[shrewd pecan]

again Id rather be in neither if I’m getting hit

[manic latch]

Object 490 is perfect choice for you

[tough quail]

no kremlin not the forbidden dong t-80

[shrewd pecan]

I’d rather be in a standard T-80 so I have actual ammo capacity

[cinder escarp]

You'd be amazed at the stuff that leaks through censorship over the decades. (This isn't a Chally but it's not hard to figure out what it is...)

[manic latch]

Why you need that much ammo in 1v1

[shrewd pecan]

man I’m not even speaking 1v1

[manic latch]

[subtle prawn]

It apparently only won over the Leopard 2, the preferred option, and Abrams because of lobbying from what I've read

[shrewd pecan]

I’m just thinking the chally 2s gonna be better for going into combat with over the T-80U

[tough quail]

it wont

[cinder escarp]

It only one because Thatcher put her foot down that the tank had to be domestic.

[tough quail]

especially not a 90s ch2

[cinder escarp]

Also, the entire mantlet area and not just the gun mask on CR2 is unarmored.

[manic latch]

I miss Object 477

[cinder escarp]

(I have more photos, but those wedges are hollow and just used for routing things like cables)

[manic latch]

Common Mantlet shots can be real or myth

[subtle prawn]

Regular version or TES?

[spring briar]

Iltam zumra rashupti ilatim

[shut wren]

PLAGF Abrams when

[shrewd pecan]

if you mantlet any tank odds are it’s gonna end being combat ineffective

[strong plank]

Ehhhh

[tough quail]

the thing is the mantlet isnt just unarmored

its also huge

[spring briar]

@tough quail

[cinder escarp]

It's about a third of the turret width

It's a lot better on CR1

[tough quail]

real and true

[spring briar]

3500 bce moment

[tough quail]

i mean the leaks dont really matter practically speaking

[strong plank]

Gotta win those internet brownie points somehow

[tough quail]

nobody is out there reading the WT forums and then trying to aim for the mantlet

[shrewd pecan]

man it’s the tank that’s being re turreted right mow

[cinder escarp]

what if I told you that soldier, who was part of ADTU, didn't get more than a slap on the wrist for it?

[shrewd pecan]

alongside the tank that’s probably gonna end up having a few destroyed in combat pretty soon

[tough quail]

i wonder what happened to the guy who literally did a recording of the turret traversing with a stop watch

[manic latch]

Fucking finally Arena-M appears again for water proof tests

"The Arena-M active defense complex on the T-72 tank has successfully passed tests not only with Russian anti-tank missile systems, but also with foreign, captured ammunition (likely Javelin and Nlaw). We were informed about this in the holding "High-precision complexes" of the state corporation "Rostec".
In the future, the Arena-M active protection complex is planned to be installed on T-90 and T-80 tanks"

[tough quail]

sure i would

someone could leak how shit the ufp is

it doesn't really matter because everyones aiming center mass anyway

[shrewd pecan]

If it’s on war thunder forums it’s probably already in the hands of intelligence agencies

[tough quail]

also that

[manic latch]

Why not T-72s?

[tough quail]

there's probably a dude in china who can hand build CR2s out of clay as of a decade ago

[strong plank]

I’d assume they’d want to install them on their best

[shrewd pecan]

listen man if the T-72 makes it past the minefield and artillery they already have god on their side

They don’t need a APS