history

[spring briar]

still doesn't excuse the hipper's existence

[alpine onyx]

You say I should use that word more efficiently?

[spring briar]

as an engineer

I prefer the word "effective"

[alpine onyx]

as a rescue engineer

I drop that word

[manic latch]

Largest quad Soviets designed was quad 450mm
Tho Even that was a proposal tho

[spring briar]

as a rescue engineer you should know redundancy does not mean safety, preventative or mitigation

[alpine onyx]

it is a crucial step tho

[spring briar]

if you correctly implement it in whatever scenario you think might take place

forgive my lack of jargon

[alpine onyx]

thinking of how much heavier turntable ladders get when you apply the desirable redundancy

[spring briar]

@eternal veldt Japan made type 91 shell versions of their 30cm shells

[eternal veldt]

for the older ships, I presume?

[spring briar]

not even sure

I would say

Settsu

and Kawachi

[spiral cedar]

What about coastal guns

[spring briar]

well that's what I'm trying to find out

[eternal veldt]

Shikishima's still around too

[spring briar]

if they used any of their 30cm guns as coastal guns

[eternal veldt]

Kawachi blew herself up conveniently in 1918

[spring briar]

Russian Battleship Orel took a hit on her 5.75-inch (15.8 cm) belt from a 12-inch (30.5 cm) shell which failed to penetrate```

A movable object meets a stoppable force

[spiral cedar]

A movable object meets a very stoppable force

[spring briar]

when a not so good thing cancels out an even worse thing

[spiral cedar]

[spring briar]

this feels like early shonen manga chapters

[eternal veldt]

unfortunately said movable object is not in the best shape and flammable

[spring briar]

I'd say the blackpowder fillers of Japanese common shells also had a say in that

[manic latch]

Twin 406mm and quad 220mm

Medium battleship

[spring briar]

my beloved

glorified monitor

[eternal veldt]

oi. monitors have massive bulges

this probably doesn't

[spring briar]

this thing is the bulge

and I wanted this

and not Borodino as we got her

[manic latch]

Pick your favorite Richy

Got quad 180 and 220mm choices

[spring briar]

top right

because 4 shafts

[manic latch]

4 shaft with 70k hp per one

Nice

[spring briar]

I can use it to ram H-39

[manic latch]

280k hp. That's Stalingrad level

Should be pretty fast

[thorn trail]

Wait I asked this question yesterday but nobody answered: Why does it look like that US BBs have like flatter sides than other BBs that follow a more concave shape

[spring briar]

if it's fast depends on the hull shape

you should know that by now

[manic latch]

She does look like Stalingrad hull so

[spring briar]

ok give me the trial data

oh

nvm

[manic latch]

Rich

Speeds are written near it

[spring briar]

now give me medium battleship

[manic latch]

Your choice goes at 36.2 knots

[spring briar]

are the guns the longer 406's?

[manic latch]

Does have higher velocity than Soyuz I think

Should be improved for sure

[spring briar]

[thorny patio]

Okay... This is much better... I can actually read people's messages without having to scroll back up constantly XD

[eternal veldt]

We get in the mood

[spring briar]

[thorny patio]

Anyways, the original Yorktown CVs (Yorktown, Hornet, Enty) we're all exceptional in each their own way... But they stood no chance of making it to the modern day as museum ships.

Why? Because just as it is today, aircraft carriers require a SHITTON of capital to maintain and with the US economy so focused on producing and armament, saving a ship rather than recycling it was just not an efficient way of doing things

And unlike say... Battleship Texas, which managed to go above and beyond what it was ever meant to do, The Yorktown carriers while the last of their kind, had the misfortune of being around the same time the ESSEXS we're being pumped out

[alpine onyx]

Texas went above and beyond?

[thorny patio]

It was built as a dreadnought... Even by ww2 metrics it was ancient

[thorn trail]

All battleships after HMS Dreadnoughts are dreadnoughts tho

[alpine onyx]

She's in good company then, not the only dreadnought that was around in WW2 that was reduced to a coastal bombardment vessel

[manic latch]

[thorny patio]

So the mighty Missouri is a dreadnought? I don't think that's correct

[thorn trail]

Yes it is

[spring briar]

[thorn trail]

Dreadnoughts are just BBs with a large all main gun

Not a large mix of intermediate calibers

[spring briar]

and humans are old world monkeys

but we don't call em that anymore

[thorn trail]

Yeah true

[thorny patio]

A dreadnought was SPECIFICALLY any bb designed around namesake

[alpine onyx]

I still don't see Texas going above and beyond

[spring briar]

South Carolina was not designed around dreadnought
but she still is a dreadnought

[alpine onyx]

[thorny patio]

By ww2 most Navy's had far surpassed and changed their designs to suit their own naval doctrine

[manic latch]

It's American

[thorn trail]

They are all still called Dreadnoughts

[alpine onyx]

But did it flood it's TDS?

[thorn trail]

Well albeit Super-Dreadnoughts

[spring briar]

just waiting for the bulge meme

[alpine onyx]

you didn't have to wait long

[manic latch]

More range reference incoming

[eternal veldt]

All ships are extremely costly to maintain once in the water

The traditional saying is that "It's not the initial cost that breaks you, but the maintenance"

[thorny patio]

Okay have you looked at a side-by-side of Mi' and the Texas? They look absolutely nothing alike

[eternal veldt]

USS The Sullivans is in an absolute shit shape, as you've likely seen on the news

[thorn trail]

They just like not called them dreadnoughts and just BBs because after ww1 all in commission pre-dreadnoughts were decomissioned

[eternal veldt]

We got reports of a crew dropping a wrench and it punching it clean through the bottom of the hull

[thorn trail]

A dreadnought by its definition is just a battleship with an all big-gun armament

Due to battleships before Dreadnought having a mix of intermediate calibers

[eternal veldt]

As to the fate of Enterprise, it's a simple case of:

1. There is not enough public interest/fund to privately buy the ship off the navy
2. Enterprise is 20+ years old, battered, and incapable of opearting larger, later aircraft
3. The Navy has a massive surplus of vessels
4. Some of the crew wanting her scrapped

In short, she gets the blowtorch

[alpine onyx]

Getting damaged a lot in wartime reduces the chances of museum quite a bit

since the repairs will aim towards "just enough", not towards 100%

[spring briar]

praise be the Spee museumites

[eternal veldt]

Something something Theseus' ship

[alpine onyx]

and if you wanna preserve the ship for 70+ years, you will have to finish those repairs, all of them

[spring briar]

just refloat spee man
just restore her

ez museum

[eternal veldt]

yea uh

no

[thorny patio]

I mean... Technically you can say that shipwrecks can make just as much tourism... As ari

[eternal veldt]

The entire funnel collapsed

the front fell off

[alpine onyx]

after burning for a few days

you'd have to rebuildthe ship from scratch

[thorn trail]

What BB is this again?

[alpine onyx]

cheaper to start anew

[eternal veldt]

Not really

[spring briar]

her ugly ss can never be allowed to resurrect

[eternal veldt]

For ships like Nachi, they're a navigational hazard

[manic latch]

[eternal veldt]

For wrecks like those in Toulon, they're obstacles to shipping lanes

[alpine onyx]

and when you start anew, you might as well build them on land as a fancy looking building

[thorn trail]

Or is that a cruiser?

[alpine onyx]

and save yourself the hassle of maintaining a ship

[spring briar]

bismarck is a source of iron for anaerobic bacteria
circle of life

[eternal veldt]

That's why the Philippines made sure Nachi's wreck was blown to kingdom come to make sure nothing bumps into it and make yet another shipwreck

[spring briar]

one bacterium feeds another

[thorny patio]

Lol, imagine someone without a clue asking "Japan should refloat it's old CVS"

[eternal veldt]

good night, princess

[manic latch]

Weird you don't know about Graf Spee

[eternal veldt]

And then there's just some convenience of shipwrecks, like Scheer

[thorn trail]

Oh i didn't know that was the Graf Spee

[eternal veldt]

Salvage what you can, bury the rest, then build a car park on top

bye to you too

or, if you're really short on materiel

they make for excellent breakwaters

[thorny patio]

What's funny is apparently it's cheaper to build a mockup of a million dollar government property than to save the real things (cough cough- space shuttles)

[spring briar]

things you can find in car parks:

• Cars
• Asphalt
• People
• King Richard III
• A german heavy cruiser
• traffic signs

[eternal veldt]

Tirpitz's wreck are famously used for Damascus knifes and less well known, infrastructure improvements

[thorny patio]

And yes, I'm being serious. NASA straight up built a mock up shuttle to display at the Johnson space center in Houston

[alpine onyx]

Of course a mockup shuttle is cheaper than a real one

[spring briar]

the US also made mockup Takaos

big deal

[eternal veldt]

isn't it Australia?

[alpine onyx]

No need for instruments, no need for the shielding, give me some money and plywood and I'll build one myself

[thorn trail]

All 3 space shuttles are being preserved tho?

[thorny patio]

We had more than 3

[thorn trail]

the 4th one Enterprise wasn't really space usable

[spring briar]

thing with spaceshuttles is
they're on dry land

[thorn trail]

also all 4 of them are preserved

[alpine onyx]

But did they preserve Challenger?

[thorn trail]

6 total if you include the destroyed Columbia and Challenger

[spring briar]

seriously?

[eternal veldt]

bits and pieces of it, maybe

[alpine onyx]

Okay, sorry for that

[thorny patio]

Being spaceworthy after the program was canned shouldn't factor into it's worth as a museum

[thorn trail]

I only counted the spaceworthy Shuttles initially but if you want to include Enterprise then yes it's still in preservation

[thorny patio]

If I remember correctly, there's very VERY little of Columbia left

[thorn trail]

It's on top of Intrepid close to a Concorde

[eternal veldt]

found it, not mock ups, my bad

[thorny patio]

I remember my parents saying how they saw it practically disintegrate

[eternal veldt]

thanks to hit

[thorn trail]

It re-entered at 20,000mph

[eternal veldt]

also, speaking of replicas

[thorn trail]

None of it would have survived intact

[eternal veldt]

shoot me please

"replica"

[spring briar]

thx austria

[thorn trail]

Wait what ship is this?

[eternal veldt]

Some old merchant ship dressed to mock up the 136-gun Nuestra Senora de la Santisima Trinidad

nowhere near the real thing, of course, I hate it

[spring briar]

she sank in the storm the day after trafalgar right?

[eternal veldt]

Yea, after the prize crew was overthrown

[spring briar]

[eternal veldt]

Oh, not her. The brits set her loose to sink.

it's one of those French SoLs that had a uprise, but then also sank.

[thorn trail]

When did prize ships really stop being a thing?

[spring briar]

when battle ranges increased

making small comebacks in U boat warfare tho

[eternal veldt]

mfw one U-boat surfaced, surrendered, the prize crew boarded, and they found the sub to be literally drowned in rotting potatoes and floating shit

[thorn trail]

What was the largest prize ship?

[eternal veldt]

[thorn trail]

what U boat was this?

[eternal veldt]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Graph

The submarine was then lying broadside on to the surf and listing heavily to starboard... The interior of the submarine was unlit and was in a chaotic state; leaks of oil and water from the broken gauge glasses of internal tanks had combined with vast quantities of provisions, flour, dried peas and beans, soft fruit, clothes, bedding, and the remains of scores of loaves of black bread to form a revolting morass that in places was knee-deep.** It was subsequently discovered that in this ship the crew's W.C. had been converted into a food locker and overturned buckets of excrement added to the general noisome conditions.**

Most hygienic U-boat

[thorn trail]

holy shit

what the fuck

that's so fucking gross

[eternal veldt]

something something subject to the requirements of the service

[thorny patio]

This sounds exactly like a sub that Al should have

[alpine onyx]

They did often convert one toilet into food storage

[eternal veldt]

Just curious, any logs of U-boat available by chance?

I recall going through Archerfish's logs, went as detailed enough to count how many sailors had constipation

[spring briar]

rather have constipation than diarrhoea

[thorny patio]

From what I've been told 2nd hand, working in modern submarines is hellish

Imagine what it was like for those sailors back then

[eternal veldt]

modern subs are already quite nice

you get modern stuff like refrigerators and air conditioners

on these older things, you're stuck with a noisy engine, even more narrow walkways, and canned food

no air con too IIRC

and when submerged, do a miserable 8 knots

[thorny patio]

Yeah but with all the same risks and dangers, and all that new tech makes up for the bigger area, so I'd imagine the modern subs are still hella cramped

And that's not even mentioning the sailor's who work on nuclear powered subs

Speaking of old submarines, anyone ever heard of the CSS Hunley?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._L._Hunley_(submarine)

[alpine onyx]

I know that every single torpedo firing document has been digitized

And is just waiting for you

Otherwise, UBoat logs are few available

Just like the DDs, not high profile enough to get digitized

[thorny patio]

When my best friend showed me his dad's scale model, the first thing I saw was the long ass harpoon sticking out this things front

[thorn trail]

Does anyone know where exactly Shimakaze sank?

I know it sank in Ormoc Bay (just kilometers from where I live) but are there like coordinates to where exactly in Ormoc Bay?

[eternal veldt]

Ormoc Bay, Philippines

Likely will not be given to you

[thorn trail]

Yeah thought so

[eternal veldt]

Because they're afraid of illegal salvagers

Most of Java Sea's wrecks are gone already

And both Prince of Wales and Repulse's wreck sites are heavily damaged

The less publicly known the coordinates are, the better

[thorn trail]

Aight then

[thorny patio]

How's Prinz Eugens wreck doing over by the bikini atoll?

[eternal veldt]

Not touched that much, it's not as close to major settlements, nor is it low background steel

[thorn trail]

Was just asking because you know how there are people who do some weird ass rituals before pulling on the gacha? I want to do that by facing in the direction of Shimakaze's wreck if her event ever reran

[eternal veldt]

Both of which applies to these aforementioned wrecks

[eternal veldt]

Dont be weird my guy

[spring briar]

SMS Thuringen is still laying off the coast of Brittany

[thorn trail]

[thorny patio]

Unrelated to warships but they're saying the Titanics not much longer for this world because of the rate at which it's rusting

Plus salinity

[eternal veldt]

Currents are not helping her

[thorny patio]

And the currents are slowly bringing the dunes of the NA shelf to burry her

[eternal veldt]

On the Pacific side, most of the deeper wrecks are very well preserved

[thorn trail]

Hornet is the deepest wreck ever found right?

[spring briar]

Samuel B Roberts

[thorn trail]

Oh wait it's the Samuel B Roberts

[eternal veldt]

It's good to the point that you can still see Nevada's hatch numbers scribed clearly

And Indianapolis' ammo locker numbers

[thorny patio]

Most of the kido butai CVs are so deep and that's what preserves them right?

[eternal veldt]

And most importantly for me, the bloody paint is untouched

[spring briar]

the deeper, the less oxygen and the colder the water
oxygen and heat rust steel
so the deeper the wreck the better preserved

[eternal veldt]

RV Petrel surveyed Akagi and Kaga

Petrel's RoV did a bit of funny and rammed Kaga, necessitating repairs too

The 2nd Cardiv remains unsurveyed

[thorny patio]

It's hilarious that Japan's carriers made better submarines

[thorn trail]

Have Shoukaku and Zuikaku been discovered?

[eternal veldt]

You want a giga take

Most warships serve better purposes when sunk than they are afloat

[spring briar]

depends on the depth silver

[thorny patio]

Well... If war should be avoided then yeah

[thorn trail]

The largest shipwreck is USS America right?

[eternal veldt]

Fair. Can't see it good if it landed right in the middle of a coral ecosystem and fucking it up.

[thorny patio]

A government isn't intending to profit monetarily off any individual warship

[spring briar]

and gotta make sure that fuel is gone

same with any nasty chemicals in electrical components

[eternal veldt]

Right, that's the nasty part

Asbestos too

[thorn trail]

Iirc wasn't the Brazilian carrier not scrapped much earlier because of the Asbestos and shit in it

[thorny patio]

Well many shipwrecks become ecosystems... The deeper ones not always... Tho I do remember as a young boy reading how the Titanic does have a sort of micro-ecosystem

[spring briar]

algae maybe

[alpine onyx]

asbestos can't be that bad, considering how the British museum ships still have tons of it on board

[spring briar]

Bismarck and Titanic are very big algae and anaerobic bacteria farms nowadays

so wholesome

[eternal veldt]

That reminds me

[thorny patio]

It's still life and that's always a good thing

[eternal veldt]

There's an ongoing tinfoil hat about how it was Olympic, not Titanic that sunk

[spring briar]

"ongoing"

ongoingly debunked

[eternal veldt]

Devolved into some nasty arguments and fighting over the algae-covered nameplate of Titanic

[thorny patio]

Bruh, all contherories are ongoing

[spring briar]

insurance fraud

[eternal veldt]

Some wild shitflinging between whether that's an O, that's a T, yada yada

Over basically brown shit

[spring briar]

in the end

an olympic class ship still sank

[thorny patio]

A big ass ship sunk

[spring briar]

[thorny patio]

Lots died

[spring briar]

Brittanic moment

[eternal veldt]

Ooh, actually, hang on, got a good pic

[thorny patio]

it was a white star moment

[spring briar]

luckily almost noone was on board her since she was a hospital ship

not as sad as the Collins line moments

[thorny patio]

Also unlike the big T, the crew of the Britannic we're good at their jobs

Okay that was me being a little harsh

[thorn trail]

Stupid ass question: What would be the major cons if let's say a TI-Supertanker was converted into an aircraft carrier

[thorny patio]

But the circumstances were FAR far better and the Bs crew were able to actually handle themselves accordingly

[spring briar]

it would probably cost about as much as making a brand new carrier

[thorny patio]

Carriers are probably the MOST expensive ship to build nowadays

[thorn trail]

Let's just say cost is not a dealbreaker.

[spring briar]

first of all

the oil tanker bridge

[thorn trail]

What would be other cons of making a large oil tanker as an aircraft carrier

[spring briar]

is in the way

[thorny patio]

It's one reason you don't see every seafaring nation building a ton of them

[spring briar]

so you have to remove the existing bridge and then put one on the right side

then find some way to counterbalance

then

[thorny patio]

That and CVs are really not defensive tools

[spring briar]

now you basically have a 300 meter long empty stretch of ship

which you have to fill with decks

for plane storage

[thorny patio]

So building one or more when you have no plans to use them offensively is seen as a waste

[spring briar]

you'll have to add a flight deck

I can't imagine how awful this conversion would be

[thorny patio]

Germany for example doesn't have its own CV of any kind... Because it doesn't need to project power of such scale... Yet

[spring briar]

atleast you'll have a double hull

[thorny patio]

The day Germany wants to build a CV, is not a day anyone looks forward too

[spring briar]

why not

whatever is Germany to do

[manic latch]

Given minimalist efforts of Germany on military projects

[spring briar]

they're dependent on the welfare of Europe

[manic latch]

Doubt they will do funding for a CV

And well. Germany already has great power

With economical influence

Its harder to see compared to military of course

[spring briar]

top 10 wehrb quotes

[thorn trail]

Why give Germany CV's when they are having issues maintaining their land forces

[manic latch]

British people say it too.

[thorn trail]

Like wasn't their news recently that 18 Pumas became out of service due to maintenance issues

[manic latch]

Broken down in training ye

Germany loves keeping things complex

[thorn trail]

Yeah in one training exercise all the Pumas in that exercise broke down

[manic latch]

It's a demigod in War thunder still

[thorn trail]

I expect at most 1/3 to 1/2 of all the vehicles to be down due to maintenance

Not like all of them

[thorny patio]

Guys the whole point is that a CV for a nation is seen as a show of power

To put shit in perspective, the US is able to project it's might so handily, unlike any other nation... It has dozens of carriers...

When the world is 80% ocean, having a mobile airport is quite useful for a nation wanting to project it's might

[spring briar]

France has a nuclear carrier yet

who thinks it is a show of power

[thorny patio]

When was it commissioned? Is it just the one and why was it built?

[manic latch]

Gaulle

Not sure why it was build

Rich explain

[thorn trail]

It was build to replace the 2 Clemenceau class carrier that France had before

Also because France is still pretty involved in its past colonies

[eternal veldt]

Lost the pic, feck

[spring briar]

replacement of Foch

[thorn trail]

So having an aircraft carrier makes sense

[eternal veldt]

Guess I'll try later

[thorny patio]

My logic still makes sense then

[spring briar]

yeah but the carrier isn't used for that

[thorn trail]

Ah aight then

[thorny patio]

In geopolitics, there's a lot to be said about what people CAN do and not just what it actually does

[spring briar]

France has carriers for multilateral and cooperative defence with its allies
especially the US

[thorn trail]

isn't France planning to make a larger carrier?

[manic latch]

PANG

To replace Gaulle

It will have EMALS

[thorny patio]

So it's building carriers to add to it's collective power

[manic latch]

Nuclear power too

[spring briar]

not sure if PANG will replace de Gaulle or if they will still be using her until another PANG is built

[ivory ridge]

i can already see the result

QE-class tonnage and size
izumo class hangar size

[manic latch]

Ain't Gaulle will reach her life in 2040?

[thorny patio]

France and the UK both have good reasons to build CVs. They are still regional great powers with a need to project their influence among allies and others

[chilly osprey]

She's to replace de Gaulle circa 2038

[manic latch]

Nuclear reactors ain't good with prolonged age ye

[chilly osprey]

Not even just that, but also designed hull life

[manic latch]

Gerald Fords should reach their hull life in 2070s

[thorn trail]

Wait speaking of hull life, is there a dockyard in Pearl Harbor big enough to handle Missouri just in case they need to fix her like Texas?

[chilly osprey]

In any case the MN would be looking to integrate newer aircraft in the 2040s - ex, whatever FCAS produces

[spring briar]

Like Foch and Clemenceau, De Gaulle was perfect for anti soviet trollege

and PANG will be too

sorry krem

[manic latch]

Super Rafale

[chilly osprey]

And it would be better not to limit FCAS by the power of de Gaulle's shorter steam catapults

[manic latch]

Go troll Vietnam

[spring briar]

we did

[chilly osprey]

In any case

[thorny patio]

I believe so, otherwise the MO would be shit out of luck on such a secluded part of the world

[chilly osprey]

Germany really doesn't have any kind of need or ambition for carriers

[manic latch]

Yeah Germany doesn't need naval fcas

[thorny patio]

Texas on the other hand had to move because of something to do with needing a new dry dock

[manic latch]

Hmm say Phon

Will Tempest be vtol

[thorny patio]

Pretty much

[manic latch]

Since Japan and Italy needs vtol

[chilly osprey]

No

[manic latch]

And British

Huh

[chilly osprey]

Tempest is replacing Typhoon, not F-35

[manic latch]

[thorn trail]

Yup there are 4 dockyards in Pearl Harbor, some of them big enough to handle MO

[thorny patio]

Germany prefers to use it's power within the eurozone to influence it's allies

[chilly osprey]

They will be functioning alongside each other in the future, rather than filling the same role

[ivory ridge]

bro at this rate they wont even influence Poland anymore

[thorny patio]

I've been, im aware. PH is still a naval/AF base after all

We never closed it like the Brits did to scapa flow

[thorn trail]

Was wondering because aren't most US CSGs based in San Diego or smth

[chilly osprey]

Germany's naval concern is basically the Baltics, and supporting NATO allies in the North Sea

[spring briar]

god, the germany economic influence argument gets me every time
considering they had to rush building LNG terminals to provide enough NG to provide heating for their citizens

truly mindboggling

such global impact

[chilly osprey]

They're just not a country that bothers to defend their SLOCs because it's covered by other countries

[manic latch]

Shouldn't bother France much given they have 56 reactors

[spring briar]

we like
export most of that power sadly

[manic latch]

F

[spring briar]

so France is still somewhat dependent

[ivory ridge]

one of the few things Trump said that made sense were about germany's energy independence, but that's modern politics

[chilly osprey]

Granted, their ability to focus their spending on purely European concerns... Has not exactly worked out brilliantly in execution, despite the amount of money they have to throw around

[spring briar]

said money is rather frozen

[thorny patio]

I believe your talking about the major naval port yes. If I remember correctly, that port is WAY bigger but because it's not as fine a strategic waypoint as Pearl, it's not the main base for the Pacific fleet

Pearl ironically isn't very big, yet it's the HQ for US pacific fleets, so ships tend to go back and forth between it and allameda in California

[spring briar]

btw phoe, didn't you ask for French ship costs?

[thorny patio]

And yes, the US has TWO SEPARATE FLEETS

[thorn trail]

I remember something about the only forward deployed CSG is in Japan right?

[shrewd pecan]

Ronies in Japan

[chilly osprey]

Most US CSGs are home ported on the east coast

But, yeah, there's one forward deployed at Yokosuka

[shrewd pecan]

used to be kitty hawk

[spring briar]

[thorny patio]

I believe so, Reagans patrolling the seas between Korea, China, and Japan because of tensions arising from the region

[thorn trail]

Were there any CSGs homeported in Subic Bay before that base was shut down?

[shrewd pecan]

I don't think so

[chilly osprey]

Otherwise, one at Bremerton, three in San Diego, and the rest are all at Norfolk

[chilly osprey]

I did, yeah

[spring briar]

which ones?

[chilly osprey]

Was looking for the costs of the interwar cruisers

Though if you have the costs of the modern battleships that would be great too

I'm also missing the Mogador-class

[thorny patio]

The hilarious thing I've noticed is, our eastern fleet has little excitement other than playing hide and seek with Russia in the north

[ivory ridge]

talking about carriers

[chilly osprey]

Yeah, I mean, the North and Atlantic were always the main naval theater for the Cold War, WDYE

The Pacific was always smaller scale

The PLAN only started becoming something to worry about in the 2010s.

[thorny patio]

I might be wrong on this one but if history serves me well, then one big task the US Atlantic fleet has us monitoring the Denmark straights... It's a vital seaway that Russia can use as a way to get to the rest of the Atlantic

[chilly osprey]

That kind of collectively falls to the USN, RN, MN, and Norwegian navy

[shrewd pecan]

Denmark straits suicide run

[chilly osprey]

But the Soviet strategy was never to try and fight a third Battle of the Atlantic

Though the US did spend a lot of the Cold War thinking that

[thorny patio]

The US being the biggest of those 3, probably puts forth the most

[thorn trail]

isn't the main target the GIUK gap?

[chilly osprey]

The Denmark Strait is one part of the GIUK gap

[chilly osprey]

Biggest but also least local

[thorny patio]

Even if it wasn't the soviets plan, it's A plan. Prepare for every possible scenario

[thorn trail]

Ah wait whenever I hear Denmark Strait I keep thinking about the Baltic sea connection thru Denmark

[chilly osprey]

I've honestly not mapped the deployments over time so I don't know how much time they spend up there versus the other navies that deal with it

Though obviously you can't really account for submarine activity

[thorny patio]

I'm ashamed of my high school because I thought the same thing until I actually looked the battle uo

It's called the Denmark straights because... Greenland is a part of the kingdom of Denmark

Or at least it was

Don't know if it still is

[chilly osprey]

But, anywho, US CSGs from the east coast deploy in the North Atlantic, North Sea, Mediterranean, and also the Indian Ocean whenever CENTCOM was crying for a carrier

Thank God that stopped

[thorny patio]

isn't India building a carrier?

Good for them

[thorn trail]

Ah ok ok. The strait between Greenland and Iceland is called the Denmark Strait. The one in between Denmark and the Baltic sea is the Danish straits

[spring briar]

Duguay-Trouin: 26.1 million francs
Duquesne: 24.3 million francs
Suffren: 26.8 million francs
Dunkerque: 229 million francs
(values in 1914 francs)
can't find Mogador cost rn but will get back to you

[thorn trail]

Then there's a Danish Strait off the coast of Canada

[chilly osprey]

They just commissioned one, yeah

[thorn trail]

Aren't they building its sister ship as well?

[thorny patio]

That'll hopefully give lots of their people jobs

[manic latch]

Finished Vikrant

[chilly osprey]

There was supposed to be a larger follow-on in the 2030s, but it's not clear if that's happening anymore

Might be a smaller carrier

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vishal

[chilly osprey]

Thanks, that's a big help

[spring briar]

note the cost jump for Dunkek

[thorn trail]

Aren't they also planning a 2nd carrier based on Vikrant before going for Vishal?

[manic latch]

I want 2 number 9s
A number 9 large.
2 25s

[chilly osprey]

Dunkerque is still in 1914 francs, right?

[thorn trail]

Why was Dunkerque so expensive

[spring briar]

yes

[chilly osprey]

I mean, it's a battleship versus 10,000-ton cruisers

[thorny patio]

Seems like India is gearing up to be a huge influence in the region

[chilly osprey]

Ofc it's going to cost far more

[thorn trail]

Ah wait the others are cruisers

[thorny patio]

Most likely against china

[chilly osprey]

Though 10x as much as a lot more of a jump than usual

[spring briar]

Dunkerque was

• a battleship
• uses two types of quad turrets
• uses much newer materials

[manic latch]

Dunk is a BB?

[chilly osprey]

Yes

[thorn trail]

Is there a price also of the Richelieu BBs?

[chilly osprey]

India wants to be able to be the foremost naval power in the Indian Ocean, so that's kind of the end-goal they're aiming towards.

[manic latch]

Some reason I can't accept Kongos and Dunks as a BB

[thorny patio]

how many baguettes did a French bb cost?

[chilly osprey]

Kongo's are battlecruisers

Dunkerque's are battleships

Easy

[manic latch]

Ok why Dunk is a BB

[chilly osprey]

Because it was designed as such? It's quite heavily armored for its displacement.

[manic latch]

Hmm

Logical I guess

[chilly osprey]

Look beyond sheer belt thickness

[spring briar]

I also discovered that the Sautter-Harlé workers were on strike when Dunk was made in 1936
and that company was responsible for RPC

[manic latch]

It says 225mm but am I missing smh?

[spring briar]

so I wonder if the strikes have some hand in the dropping of the RPC

[chilly osprey]

Though even the belt isn't bad for a ship of her displacement

[chilly osprey]

The deck armor, main battery and secondary battery protection, CT protection, torpedo defense...

[thorny patio]

When people talk about how weird some bbs are... I just remind them the Nazis wanted to build cruisers with big ass Bismark sized guns

[manic latch]

O class and Kronshtadt class of Soviets?

[chilly osprey]

Dunkerque technically boasted better deck armor and better main battery protection than Bismarck (though, I would note Bismarck's turret faces were still 30mm thicker - though Strasbourg did match it)

[thorny patio]

The French built a cruiser gun on one of it's subs

[manic latch]

Surcouf

Ye

[manic latch]

Man no wonder Kronshtadt cant beat Dunks in war games

[ivory ridge]

skill issue

[spring briar]

also, the high cost of Dunk might be inflated due to France not having built a BB since Normandie

[desert agate]

india is going through a more reasonably paced naval expansion compared to china

[spring briar]

and the technological shift between 1927 and 1930

[manic latch]

Never compare Vikrant's construction time with Type 003

[thorny patio]

Speaking of French bbs... Of all the research ships... I have enough faction points for everyone except BREST

[ivory ridge]

i just like looking at the self defence armament of the indian carriers

[chilly osprey]

Tbh, I think that's more a case of the Chinese have far more money and shipbuilding capacity to actually expend on building large numbers of ships at once.

[desert agate]

once china deals with itself im sure india will pull away from the west though

[chilly osprey]

Though tbh China has also far outstripped India when it comes to domestic development of naval systems

[ivory ridge]

👁️

[spring briar]

holy shit

80% of a destroyer's cost was machinery

[manic latch]

God I fucking love seeing West and Soviet equipment together

[ivory ridge]

lol

[spring briar]

makes sense tho

[thorn trail]

Wait which carrier is this?

[ivory ridge]

vikrant

[thorn trail]

Wait it was the Kuznetsov right that had ASMs in VLS cells on the flight deck?

[spring briar]

kek I found the cost of the french 25k t battlecruiser projects

[thorny patio]

It's a weird chain of issues for China.

They have a navy, but Taipei has a navy backed by the US

[spring briar]

[desert agate]

plan has a variety of issues and the usn is certainly one of them

[manic latch]

Ye

[desert agate]

biggest issue though is recession

[chilly osprey]

"I have 99 problems and the USN is a solid 80 of them"

[thorn trail]

These are what missiles again. Granit right?

[manic latch]

P 700 ye

Makes her a cruiser

[desert agate]

economics is the fundamental biggest killer of naval armament programs since the dawn of time

and china is starting to encounter one hell of an economic fiasco

i guess they can spend the next 20 years selling off the giant navy they just built for pennies on the dollar to whoever wants themselves a brand new DDG to try and keep themselves afloat

[manic latch]

She also have these SAMs in corners but they are less known

[thorn trail]

those are the same SAMs as in the TOR right?

[chilly osprey]

I would guess that recession is going to slow the rate of naval expansion, rather than kill it

[manic latch]

Kinzhals yep

[chilly osprey]

They're still working with a very underwhelming navy relative to their economic weight

[desert agate]

economic weight is hardly helpful when theres a huge famine on the horizon

mmmm critical water shortages thanks to decades of mismanagement

[thorn trail]

One of the main issues for the Chinese carrier force would be the lack of actually using Carrier borne aircraft right?

[manic latch]

Given how gigantic China economy is. I doubt they will reach THAT poor level tho

[chilly osprey]

Though, in light of economic difficulties, I do have to hypothesis that perhaps this bite is why they haven't started building any new Type 055 yet.

Not that I have much evidence to point to other than the absence of new 055's (so it is nothing more than a hypothesis), but...

[desert agate]

im gonna be honest the chinese economy is a solid 10% smaller than what they claim it is at a minimum according to independent research

and its shrinking a lot faster than they say it is

[chilly osprey]

Oh, yeah, that goes without saying

[manic latch]

They are developing J-35 fighter for Type 003. But use J-15 for current carries

[desert agate]

china isnt like the US that is literally too big to fail

[manic latch]

J-15 is a copy of Su-33. Which was designed for carrier operations

[chilly osprey]

Chinese GDP figures (and population figures) have a lot of smoke and mirrors going on

[desert agate]

China is very much able to fail and we are witnessing its failure

mfw lowest fertility rate on the planet
mfw massive water crisis
mfw construction industry crisis

[chilly osprey]

But, personally speaking I've seen enough pronouncements of the doom of China over the years that I'm basically preconditioned to never jump on the assumption when it's presented.

[thorn trail]

Don't they also have like a power crisis

Like their electric grid is very fragile as well

[chilly osprey]

Never plan on your enemies falling apart

[desert agate]

power crisis is a little overblown

its not a grid problem its an Australia problem

[thorn trail]

Because of Australian coal?

[desert agate]

yep

almost as if stopping imports from your number 1 supplier of household and industrial energy isnt a good idea

[thorn trail]

Wouldn't that also kind of hurt Australian exports?

[desert agate]

end of the day Chinas probably going to be mostly fine but the next few decades are going to be very bad

[thorn trail]

and thus the Australian economy?

[desert agate]

that was the plan but it didnt work

[shrewd pecan]

other people ate up all of the Australian exports

[desert agate]

the thing is that Australia doesnt just have a lot of coal it's that its coal is of very high quality

[thorn trail]

Anthracite?

[desert agate]

unlike say Indonesia or even China itself which also has a lot of coal but mostly of poor quality

so there's always buyers

[shrewd pecan]

idk I don’t think we’re ever gonna see a Chinese state failure what I’m mainly thinking is that they’re at the end of the era of unimpeded economic growth

[desert agate]

India and other developing economies snatched up the opportunity at buying Australian coal for cheap

thus our domestic supply chains have shifted away from supplying to china

a few industries are very china specific and have been suffering but it's nowhere near as bad as a lot of the apocalyptic reporting from overseas and domestic media was predicting

wine is probably the biggest loser of the sanctions along with a few other alcoholic beverage sectors

agriculture suffered a little bit but that sector has far bigger problems to deal with rn

[manic latch]

Tbh isn't whole Asia at its worst for fertility?

[desert agate]

just China and Japan afaik

[thorn trail]

Mostly the major economic countries such as Japan, China and SoKor

[manic latch]

Korea

[shrewd pecan]

also South Korea

[thorn trail]

other countries have a pretty good fertility rate

[desert agate]

i was under the impression that SK was still a fair bit higher than japan even if it wasnt at replacement rate

[shrewd pecan]

There at .84 babies per women

[thorn trail]

Nope below the 2.1 replacement rate

[shrewd pecan]

In fact

[thorn trail]

Even worse than Japan actually

[shrewd pecan]

Japan has a higher rate

[desert agate]

damn .84

[thorn trail]

Japan is at 1.3 while SoKor is at 0.84

[desert agate]

fuck i thought they were at like 1.5 lmfao

fertility rates are falling globally anyways

[shrewd pecan]

we made fun of japans fertility rates

[desert agate]

its a bit of an issue

[manic latch]

0.8 Korea

[shrewd pecan]

Yet watch them end up with the highest in developed Asia

[desert agate]

Abes dream fulfilled

[chilly osprey]

It seems to come inevitably with development

[thorn trail]

I'm honestly surprised that the Philippines only has a 2.5 fertility rate

thought it would be way higher

Honestly expected it to be like 3 or 4

[chilly osprey]

We're probably going to hit peak global population only in the 2090s, and it will be between 10 and 11 billion

[manic latch]

Doesn't ban Anime

[shrewd pecan]

idk regarding birth rates you have to solve the societal issues combined with the economic issues for it to go back up

[thorn trail]

Very hard when Japan hosts one of the largest incel populations in the world

[shrewd pecan]

What’s that going to do to solve the issue of people spending far too much time at work

[desert agate]

yeah its not incels or anime its worker abuse

[thorn trail]

A lot of Japanese corporations are starting to change their work culture iirc

Mostly the bigger corps

[manic latch]

[shrewd pecan]

👁️ at least you have shit like spy x family which is encouraging people to have kids

[desert agate]

work culture change is worthless from the top down

real change comes from workers and unions

[dusty kraken]

You gotta convince people that the future isn't shit so they would have babies

[shrewd pecan]

main issues is affording children combined with having time for children

combined with making people actually meet each other

tho japans probably better off in that regard since they aren’t in car dependency hell

[thorn trail]

Yeah isn't the dating culture in Japan kind of toxic?

[manic latch]

True

[desert agate]

cease

desist

[shrewd pecan]

it can be, tho they’re better set up for that type of thing because people aren’t tied down to the suburbs

[dusty kraken]

Honestly dating culture has been ruined by social media

[manic latch]

There is a dating culture?

[chilly osprey]

Yes?

[manic latch]

Huh

[chilly osprey]

I mean, think of it like anything else. There's a culture of norms for interactions, just like, say, you might have a 'work' culture or 'sports' culture or anything else like that

[manic latch]

[chilly osprey]

These can vary by country and time period

[shrewd pecan]

you ever just

[spring briar]

not particularly no

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

🌶️

[alpine onyx]

Sad gun

[spring briar]

happy gun

[spring briar]

sappy gun

[manic latch]

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/ronkainen7k15/status/1607711561879285761

Ronkainen (@ronkainen7k15)

CV90155 SPH

Likes

313

Twitter · Dec 27, 2022, 12:14 PM

[ivory ridge]

that wording sounds so weird

[junior trench]

Conveniently, as part of working on that, you can also encourage immigration

Which is something Japan is horrible at

[spring briar]

@alpine onyx finally found some concrete info on SMS Thüringen post-1918
Trying to look for the test results

[maiden citrus]

strangely, even mine has one key difference, 6.2'' instead of 6.1'' for main deck

[manic latch]

Montana's deck armor mystery

[spring briar]

Bill Jurens stated that Montana's weather deck was supposed to be two 45# plates

without backing

https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4015

[spring briar]

Maka where did you get 6.2" from?

[maiden citrus]

battleships illustrated

[spring briar]

[maiden citrus]

dangerous

[spring briar]

I knew they lacked some armor

but this is a sin

[maiden citrus]

and it might just be rounding, mine also has 2'' sts weather deck instead of 2.1'' like jaba's would round to

[alpine onyx]

Cutie

[maiden citrus]

since at that point you're trying to decide on 0.1'' thickness differences, which is like 2mm

derrflinger do got some nice side protect tho

[spring briar]

derfflinger actually extends the belt to cover the turrets

and has actual barbette armor

the price?

a deck

clearly she has a lower freeboard

[maiden citrus]

I do like how this implies you can shoot a shell through tiger and never hit the turret

[spring briar]

sadly this would be in the pre-1922 era

corditus

explodus

derff's upper belt is 1mm thicker than Tiger's main belt

well her upper upper belt

[maiden citrus]

[alpine onyx]

Derfflingers are cuties

[spring briar]

Seydlitz

actually I find most WW1 BC's to be cuties

looking at Tiger and Derff side by side, and looking at the area of armor on both ships, you can see why Derff could be uparmoured compared to Tiger

[spring briar]

[spring briar]

btw this says 11", it's actually 10"

[delicate beacon]

Jane moment

[spring briar]

12" CT is actually 266mm

I'm going to make a nice armor diagram for Courbet and Bretagne

and Danton

especially Danton

[delicate beacon]

[spring briar]

Found some new info on Lyon

Supposedly she’d have had an 80mm anti torpedo bulkhead which also needed to protect against underwater hits

[maiden citrus]

not bad

[spring briar]

When Nevada and Lorraine engaged with the Saint mandrier battery with its two twin 340mm guns, they would be engaging it at the edge of their firing range (about 30k yards)
But the Coastal battery turrets had a 270mm roof meaning they were impervious to this shelling

Allied warships fired 1,532 shells from 8" guns or above : 880 against Turret C (K-20) and 652 against Turret F (K-21). USS Nevada contributed a total of 260 x 14" shells (188 AP rounds + 72 HC rounds), all of them presumably against Turret F. Lorraine fired a total of 128 x 340mm rounds.

Tough little turrets

[maiden citrus]

that's a thicc roof

[manic latch]

Sexy

[manic latch]

How many did it hit

Lorraine that is

[spring briar]

No direct hits by Lorraine, Nevada or Ramilies

But the turret was hit by a 2000 lb bomb which knocked out one of the two barrels for a while

This is the aftermath

[manic latch]

Bruh

[alpine onyx]

Direct hit would probably be unpleasant for the crew

[alpine onyx]

Not as unpleasant as turning into ground meat, but a concussion should be free of charge

[spring briar]

Shouldn’t be too bad

Ringing ears and daze

Saint-Mandrier Battery is the only battleship-type turret coastal battery to see heavy action against aerial bombing and naval gunfire. Battleship-type turret coastal battery combines large-caliber guns, heavy armor protection and small size.

[manic latch]

I fucking love barrels

[spring briar]

They are re-lined barrels from Provence

@manic latch

[manic latch]

Wish it was 356mm

But 240 still good

[spring briar]

They are 340mm

[delicate beacon]

No

They are cute

[spring briar]

Krem wtf

@manic latch

More pictures

[manic latch]

Wish they build more

[spring briar]

Well there were two

Why are these listed as Germany coastel gun

They are French built

[manic latch]

I miss big cannons

[spring briar]

Hold up

57mm Mle.1947

This is the predecessor of the 57mm Mle.1951

It existed!

[delicate beacon]

I need details

[humble mulch]

[maiden citrus]

thicc smol box

[manic latch]

God I missed you Tea

And you Maka

[maiden citrus]

but I have been here

[manic latch]

"Capitalist fairytales begin with, 'Once upon a time there was...'"

"Communist fairytales begin with, 'Someday there will be...'"

— Soviet joke

Hence the reason

[spring briar]

520mm AP shell

[maiden citrus]

[manic latch]

Regal's leave reminded me the future where one day one of us won't be in this server anymore

So I will miss you in that future Maka

[manic latch]

Say

Where it was used

[maiden citrus]

I don't intend to leave server, so no worry about that friend

[spring briar]

Leningrad

[junior trench]

can we accelerate that

[kindred reef]

where is that is it just on a random street?

[manic latch]

Aww I would never leave you Reina

[spring briar]

In front of a French artillery school

Together with the 520mm HE

[manic latch]

Of course

Leningrad eats 520mm Sevastopol eats 800mm

[spring briar]

In Leningrad they would have used the HE

[manic latch]

Why not AP for Marat?

Out of range I assume

[kindred reef]

does france just have things like that in places in cities?

[spring briar]

Every country with a long military history has old large caliber shells in specific locations

[kindred reef]

russia has t-34s on large stone monuments from the great patriotic war but im not going to russia

[manic latch]

It's called being proud of your nation's enthusiasm on using avaliable balistic research and material science for creating such advanced weapons of destruction

It's harder to make a +500mm shell than a +300

[spring briar]

Russia peaked at 500mm

[kindred reef]

on a ship right?

[spring briar]

No

Artillery piece

[manic latch]

Russia build 500mm land cannon

[kindred reef]

oh i was worried they made 500mm tank

[manic latch]

Max for navy was 406mm of Soyuz

[manic latch]

Bulgaria, Poland, Hungary should have them as well

Actually. Many nations have T34 in tank museums

[kindred reef]

does belarus? i know ukraine used to have some but some of them got taken down

[manic latch]

If it's Ex Soviet they likely have few around

[gentle viper]

day 3 of posting underappreciated Cold War Vehicles, Unknown North Korean MLRS

obscure as fuck

[kindred reef]

this was an interesting design, too. tbh not sure why it didnt work it seems pretty good

[gentle viper]

Oh, Ekranoplans

lovely

[kindred reef]

nothing beats the soviet hydrofoil ferry though

[manic latch]

Minister Ustinov died in 1984, and the new Minister of Defence, Marshal Sokolov, cancelled funding for the program. Only three operational Orlyonok-class ekranoplans (with revised hull design) and one Lun-class ekranoplan remained at a naval base near Kaspiysk.

[gentle viper]

as far as i know, there are close to none pictures of this thing

we dont know its name

we dont know shit about it

[kindred reef]

the coolest looking thing to come out of the soviet union

[manic latch]

Cutie

[kindred reef]

they are my favorite non military boats ever

and sadly almost no one knows about them

[manic latch]

Well it's Soviet

Soviet projects are generally known much less compared to American or German ones

[eternal veldt]

Yes, Friedman says 6.2 outboard, not 6.1.

I don't think the SHIPS-19 archive has the Montana plans digitised too.

Lol, nope

[manic latch]

Imperial metrics and its consequences

[kindred reef]

didnt Thüringen survive the war?

[maiden citrus]

if anything, things like that happen either due to rounding (british method to look more impressive) or putting it in a different system it wasn't made in then back

put any language through google translate and back a few times and it's nonsensical

[manic latch]

I guess

[eternal veldt]

I dont think this is the case here, especially over the weather deck.

Diagram I posted earlier suggests 1 60# STS, but Garzke and Juren both seem to look differently.

[manic latch]

Hmm

[maiden citrus]

you could have plans for ships made in measurements of legal sized paper, as long as the builders understand it and the size of legal paper is defined it's a nonissue

both common systems of measurement are arbitrary and do not change math

[eternal veldt]

Top part is conspicuously missing compared to the NC/SD/Iowa diagrams.

So where does the #45 claim from Juren come from is...?

[valid trout]

Which ship is this from?

[manic latch]

Montana

[valid trout]

Ah ok

[frigid karma]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=temgmfPL1tE&ab_channel=Historigraph

[fervent wyvern]

It's a topic that kinda came up earlier in gen
But are there any ships worthy of UR rarity based on real history and not just stats
Like for example Johnston and Sammy b would be UR because of their history not because of how strong they are

[eternal veldt]

@spiral cedar Bill Jurens nailed the Montana's armour scheme, backing it up with SHIPS-19 as a source (which is where I found Alaska's cross section)

The detailed armor plans for the Montana class are very complex, making it nearly impossible to provide a complete and accurate description in secondary-source schematic form. There is just no real way to do the arrangements justice on a scale of 1:1000 or so, so working from these sorts of documents, though not entirely futile, will inevitably lead to some apparent discrepancies.

There is a good deal of correspondence on file describing the evolution of the armor arrangements of these ships, and it remains difficult -- at least for me -- to determine with certainty exactly what the final finished' arrangement was when the ships were abandoned. No Booklets of General Plans would have been prepared insofar as these documents are usually only done for ships already completed, or nearly so. In any case, Booklets of General Plans omitted armor by regulation, making them (usually) not very useful for interpreting the details of armor design.

In any case, the contract plans show the following, rounded off to the nearest inch or so, except of course for thicknesses.

Forward Transverse Bulkheads: 18" Class A from 2nd deck down about 19'-0". 17" Class A from the bottom of the 18" belt above down another 11'-0". 16" Class A from the bottom of the 17" belt above down to the Upper Inner Bottom. After faces aligned.

After Transverse Bulkheads: 15.25" class A from 2nd Deck down to a point about 3 feet below the 1st Platform. 12.75" class A from there down to the upper inner bottom. Forward faces aligned.

The Main Deck: 45# STS over 45# STS. This was, technically, not considered armor.

Garzke is off

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/montana-bb-67-booklet-of-general-plans-t37026-s20.html

[desert agate]

if history were a determining factor for UR status then Shimakaze would be purple at best

[eternal veldt]

Shimakaze's a fucking R at best

Unremarkable service with the exception of her own boilers exploding from a riddled hull

Then finished off after left crippled and dead in the water, just about the fate of a fuck ton of IJN DDs

[fervent wyvern]

Yea that's kinda what we were getting at
I said UR french in Feb and then someone said french ships didnt do anything and there wouldn't be a french UR

Like shinano had one job of moving from 1 place to another and sank
But she is UR

[desert agate]

clem is a possibility

[fervent wyvern]

Mogador

[maiden citrus]

basing on history alone does make it kinda weird in its own way though, since often that is down to how often the ship was used or even pure luck

[eternal veldt]

Rarity has proven time and after time to be irrelevant to rarity

Hutten is at 760 tons, UR tier

[maiden citrus]

yeh

[desert agate]

if it were historical id be getting my UR Sydney next week

[maiden citrus]

and not impressice specs wise either

[eternal veldt]

Ryuuhou is a very mediocre converted CVL

SSR

[maiden citrus]

so there does need to be a combination of both history and capability the ship would have, but often we end up with neither

[spiral cedar]

Cool

Remind me in January when I can use my computer again

[desert agate]

sydney really should be UR tho

[fervent wyvern]

But like I now just kinda wanna know what ships would be UR solely based on history

[eternal veldt]

Enterprise and Nevada are easy picks

Warspite is wanked to hell, and for good reason

[desert agate]

texas would be nice

[fervent wyvern]

Like Jervis bay taking on Admiral Scheer to save the rest of the convoy
Even tho all they did was buy time and didn't land a single hit

That kind of UR worthy

[maiden citrus]

nc and mass too, mass destroyed multiple enemy ships, nc was in practically every pacific battle

[eternal veldt]

Mass is just being very based

[fervent wyvern]

[eternal veldt]

Possibly the longest hits from a BB too

[maiden citrus]

and no sniper skill

just distance increases damage

[eternal veldt]

I'll also give a shout to USS Borie

Boarding action with a uboat and using coffee mugs as weapons

[desert agate]

kongos for UR

[maiden citrus]

omaha would probably be ssr or something, since she actually captured a german ship

[desert agate]

fuck yamato floating hotel lookin ass

kongos were the real work horses

im not biased at all

[eternal veldt]

Tfw Kongo and Haruna are considered a lucky pair

[maiden citrus]

like how many ships can say they captured an enemy ship lol

[eternal veldt]

Tfw Kongo and Haruna splits up and Kongo instantly dies

👌

[fervent wyvern]

[eternal veldt]

Stord is also probably UR worthy, if the tale of launching torps 400m (!) away from Scharnhorst is credible

[desert agate]

shouldnt have left her best sister alone

[fervent wyvern]

It's a shame kongou is useless in AL
She is pretty hot

[eternal veldt]

Ah, forgot two more ships for the IJN

Shigure and Yukikaze

[desert agate]

all the kongos are great and its a damn shame they dont have the stats they deserve being the only japanese capitals to do anything of note

[eternal veldt]

Aka "Every ship we escort will die"

[desert agate]

certainly more active than nagato

[maiden citrus]

the kongos are the japanese qes

'send them, send the kongos'

[eternal veldt]

The Kongos have a good virtue

[fervent wyvern]

And they are British ships

[eternal veldt]

Which maka will reject

[fervent wyvern]

[eternal veldt]

Spid

[maiden citrus]

I mean they also look nice

[eternal veldt]

Alright, I'll say it

Haruna'a funnel is the least appealing of the four Kongos

Shorter fore funnel and taller back funnel is very no for me

[maiden citrus]

hm, that's valid

[desert agate]

jkjk

understandable tbh

makes her very distinct tho

[eternal veldt]

Hiei's got good looks, but eeehh history, I suppose

Got fucked by San Francisco, Enterprise and another k/d ratio tally for Yukikaze

[desert agate]

hiei was a meme

[maiden citrus]

diejoeboo

[desert agate]

why yes of course this battlecruiser with all of its guns and armour removed is just a yacht dont ask what we did with the stuff dont check the warehouse no stop we're treaty compliant

[eternal veldt]

Also, if we're going by history as rarity

Yudachi, Hatsutuki, Murakumo, Arashi, Makigumo, Chikuma, Tone, Akikaze, I-8, I-26 all goes to below common for me

The dog ought to be tried and executed

[desert agate]

poi

[eternal veldt]

I cant believe she said "It's poiing time" and "poii'd all over those drowning survivors of USS Little"

Fuck her.

[fervent wyvern]

[eternal veldt]

Nearly forgot Akikaze

Probably one of the worst

"Between Manus and Rabaul each of the adults was strung up by the hands on a gallows in the stern of the vessel, shot dead by rifle or machine-gun fire, and thrown overboard. The two Chinese infants and the European baby were thrown over alive."

The Bushido demands it, I assure you

[maiden citrus]

the what and the what

[eternal veldt]

The babies were not being honorable

[maiden citrus]

I

I guess so

[valid trout]

which destroyer threw gaido and his pilot overboard at midway?

cus they were drowned alive

[eternal veldt]

Arashi

[valid trout]

thats not a pretty fte

fate

[eternal veldt]

With a fire axe to the back of the head

Makigumo commited similar atrocities and was not shown on screen in Midway 2019

[eternal veldt]

But yea, every ship here did a funny one way or the other

Instant shit tier for me

[fervent wyvern]

Laffey UR

[maiden citrus]

yeh

[eternal veldt]

Stanly would be SSR

To survive not one, but two baka bombs, that's quite an achivement

[valid trout]

that was osmus, but i cant find anything about gaido and o flaherty

[eternal veldt]

Makigumo

After an interrogation, the crew tied weights around the feet of O'Flaherty and Gaido and threw them into the Pacific to drown, instead of keeping them prisoner until they reached Japan. Makigumo's crew thought of it as payback for the loss in the battle of Midway of the aircraft carriers Akagi, Kaga, Sōryū, and Hiryū, which had formed two-thirds of the Kidō Butai Pearl Harbor attack force.

[valid trout]

doesn't this also count as war crimes?

[eternal veldt]

Yes

[valid trout]

was her captain tried?

cus information is lacking ;-;

[eternal veldt]

No, because he likely perished in action

[valid trout]

would make sense

[eternal veldt]

Or if he didn't, commit seppuku like I-8's commander

Pieces of shit

Oh, right, Aoba belongs on that list too

[frigid karma]

midway 2019 was also much more positive in their portrayal

[eternal veldt]

For ordering Tone to do the funny

[frigid karma]

they did not show the two pilots being beaten the shit out of

then again, at least it isn't bridge on the river kwai

[eternal veldt]

Of course not

[frigid karma]

"yes we will build the bridge as good as possible because muh british pride :))))"

comedy on the level of monty python

[eternal veldt]

The ending credit actually made me furrow when I saw it in the theatre

[frigid karma]

the one in midway?

[eternal veldt]

"This film is dedicated to all US and Japanese sailors that lost their lives in WWII"

Sure buddy, gotta give dedication to those war criminals, especially after you showed what happened to the Chinese civvies in the aftermath of the Doolittle Raid

[frigid karma]

yeah, interesting choice on the director's part

still, despite all the inaccuracies i liked the film

[eternal veldt]

It's okay, but falls flat on portraying the Japanese dilemma imo

Especially making Nagumo look like an actual moron

[frigid karma]

most paciifc war films do

can't forget the infamous "sleeping giant" line from tora

[eternal veldt]

The real atrocious example here is Bay's Pearl Harbor

F-86s in 1942 :^)

[frigid karma]

i must confess i've never watched that film

ive heard its terrible tho

tora tora tora had an actual runway accident happen

[valid trout]

WHAT the hell

[eternal veldt]

Good, stay away from it

[frigid karma]

modern films man

[eternal veldt]

Watched it too many times as a kid

[frigid karma]

in the old days we used to throw asbestos at the actors

and make them flee for their lives from burning planes

now it's all cgi 😦

[eternal veldt]

Tora Tora Tora actually had a P-40 prop that ran astray IIRC

The actors are unironically running for their lives

Truly ebin