history

[spring briar]

shells are OP

[spiral cedar]

I generally give a non-pen a 50% chance to knock out the turret, and an average of 1 gun lost, as a mean approximation of that sort of thing

But at the same time, a very thick steel slab a few hundred tons in weight is a pretty decent blast deflector, and shifting a thousand tons of turret around does make the experience somewhat less jarring to the crew inside. Bismarck for instance took a 14" hit to a turret that left the crew alive

[spring briar]

and 80% concussion and 70% blown out eardrums

[spiral cedar]

They were able to continue operating the gun for another salvo or two

[spring briar]

in nam, US soldier in bunkers along the ho chi minh highway suffered high levels of ruptured ear drums due to hits to the bunkers or near them

[spiral cedar]

Bombs are a very different beast from shells

[spring briar]

and turrets are very different beasts from bunkers

[spiral cedar]

There's always the case of the 250 kg bomb hit to SoDak's turret roof that only one guy inside the turret noticed at all

[spring briar]

steel stronk

few openings

[spiral cedar]

Unless you're an early Dreadnought era British battleship turret ig

No superfiring allowed

I wonder how Yamato and Montana barbette armor compare in relative terms

Monty is 21.3" of improved (1944+) Class A

[spring briar]

jaba

what's Yammy barbette

yamamoto's barbette

[spiral cedar]

Yamato was... 22.05" VH I think

[spring briar]

(yamamota battle ship)

!

[spiral cedar]

Yamamoto's Barbie doll

[spring briar]

Mountaina

[delicate beacon]

Rijkelui

[spiral cedar]

Hannah Montana vs. Yamamoto's Barbie

[spring briar]

versus Haa negenendertig

(H-39 in dutch)

[spiral cedar]

Hm

Navypedia gives me SQL errors when I try to check

[delicate beacon]

ye

Had one earlier today

[spiral cedar]

Anyone know H-39 planned barbie thiccness

[spring briar]

sirene

[spiral cedar]

It's going to taper below the upper belt probably

[spring briar]

[spiral cedar]

3 turret eh

They've finally decided to make a Renown counter

[spring briar]

gonna check invenio for ya jab

hang in there!

[manic latch]

That's Yamato

Montana is 457mm as Jaba said

[manic latch]

Wiki says 365mm (14.4)

Yeah it's....bad

[spiral cedar]

Classic Euro barbette moment

[manic latch]

Soyuz had same problem too. Only 425mm for gigantic barbette

[spiral cedar]

What was SovSoy's turret and barbette armor btw

Ah

[manic latch]

Turret is 495mm at 30° at least

But yeah barbette is just not good level

[spring briar]

I'll brb with barbette thickness

[spiral cedar]

Better, but 30 deg is that awkward middle ground for shell angles probably still fine for most guns, just not sure about the heavier 16 and 18 inchers

[spring briar]

I feel filthy

[manic latch]

If Wiki is correct H-39 turret face is 385mm(15.2) and they are fucking FLAT

[spiral cedar]

[manic latch]

400mm in wows tho kinda weird

[spiral cedar]

Would be better if they were actually flat and didn't have the forehead

[manic latch]

Oh yeah that head is just asking for long range shots

That 220mm? Will eat anything from far

I need Sirene for true values

[spring briar]

less than richie

[manic latch]

Riichy is quad tho. Protection is more vital

[spiral cedar]

Richy's the one WWII Euro BB class with actually good turret and barbette armor

[manic latch]

Since you lose 4 barrels with one turret gone

[spring briar]

430mm turret face and 405mm barbette

[spiral cedar]

"Hey, I actually like being able to shoot back after being hit"
—some Frenchman

[manic latch]

Montana has an awkwardly amazing stern armor for steering gear

424mm smh

I don't know if it's wows moment or real

[spiral cedar]

At 10 deg iirc?

[manic latch]

It's 0 in wows

[spiral cedar]

US BBs had very heavy steering gear armor as a rule

[manic latch]

Makes sense

[spiral cedar]

Montana actually had less than Iowa (in terms of weight of armor) because of a redesign that concentrated that armor

[frigid karma]

Montana also has bits and pieces of her citadel sticking outside the belt

So

[maiden citrus]

wows moment

[frigid karma]

I mean for fucks sake it’s like a few pixels

And you haven’t fixed it for

6 years

Bravo

[manic latch]

Montana still has that old ass hull

Needs HD rework like Gearing

[maiden citrus]

this is the company that equalizes deck armor and had NO armor completley wrong and refused to admit it until given plans

[manic latch]

I don't like the way hoe they handled deck armor ye

They go by first deck armor thickness only for shells

[maiden citrus]

and also counts only certain types of armor as armor

[manic latch]

While all decks for AP bombs

But yeah strongest armor Montana has her is

Her Barbettes

541mms

[manic latch]

Tho still weaker than Yamato's at 560mm barbette

But Montana has one more turret tho

[manic latch]

Nice

Jaba what's the % for Montana's armor

Like total weight percentage part

[spiral cedar]

I dunno

[manic latch]

[spiral cedar]

For the USN it also gets tricky because most USN diagrams didn't include the deck armor as part of armor weight

[frigid karma]

Why

Does gravity ignore metal plates laid horizontally?

[spiral cedar]

It's just their traditional weight accounting system from the early days

[frigid karma]

Ah

[manic latch]

fuck tradition

[alpine onyx]

Would argue that for the caliber Scharnhorst's turrets and barbettes are heavily protected

In terms of faceplate/caliber ratio they are better than Richelieu, looking at it

[manic latch]

Isn't Scharn 360mm with 17°?

[alpine onyx]

Yes

And 350mm barbettes, with like 2° for some godforsaken reason

[manic latch]

Tho good ol Richy is 430mm 17°

[manic latch]

Since they would be counter for Littorios

[maiden citrus]

montana steering gear tubes my beloved

[spring briar]

thawing room

the perfect room to break the ice with that one shipgirl

[delicate beacon]

No RPC?

I wonder if Soerabaja had RPC

[spiral cedar]

They mean British BBs

[delicate beacon]

[spiral cedar]

For mainbat

[spring briar]

[delicate beacon]

Basically all Dutch ships had RPC

[spring briar]

that's pretty sad

considering even the dunkeks had it at first even if it was eventually removed

[maiden citrus]

bri'ish

[spring briar]

I try to not be judgemental but in light of today

even I get a chuckle

[spiral cedar]

For reference, at 20k yards, an error of 25 arcmin in train is 7.4 mils, so the dispersion in deflection would increase by roughly 150 yards

[spring briar]

jaba

[spiral cedar]

yes

[spring briar]

why use mils

NATO mils

I prefer radians

[spiral cedar]

S = rθ

[spring briar]

yes ik

I prefer you give angle of error in the position of the stars

can you do that?

[spiral cedar]

Anyway, the answer is that lots of naval radar stuff gives errors in mils so I like to use the units a given field of study likes to use

[spring briar]

actually would the spotter scopes be graded with mils

like on a sniper optic

[spiral cedar]

Are you talking like main battery rangefinders or like tank rangefinders

[spring briar]

on ships
I know tanks have them

[spiral cedar]

I believe it’s mils, but I’ll see if I can dig up a manual from Slover’s site to confirm

[spring briar]

I should read through his site one day
I've kept myself to the shell pages as of now

[spiral cedar]

Yeh, mils

[spring briar]

thank u

jabu

[spiral cedar]

Wrong link

https://eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-16-F.html

There

[spring briar]

enjoy

[spiral cedar]

did French tank APC use explosive fillers in WW2

[spring briar]

yes

but it wasn't common on the 47mm

the 75mm shells had a filler

TL;DR
yes, France had explosive fillers on some of its APC in WW2

[manic latch]

45mm?

[spring briar]

47mm

we had too few of these to make a difference but they knocked panzers out at 1500 meters

Our 1940 75mm APDS

[spiral cedar]

Sabot?

Interesting

Experimental or standard issue

[spring briar]

it was issued to 75mm field artillery pieces to deal with heavier armor

[manic latch]

Also Rich I forgot to mention here

Germany is getting Z-47 in War Thunder

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

Which makes first laid down non completed ship for Germany

[spring briar]

shoot me

[spring briar]

French engineer Brandt was able to take his APDS designs to england where it was further developed for later use by England, the US and Canada as their own APDS variants

France also had 37mm APDS in 1940 to increase the pen on the 37 mm guns

[delicate beacon]

Richie I would never shoot you

Mostly because you'd be dissatisfied about the projectile.

[spring briar]

[spring briar]

jaba, these are also kind of APDS shells but the cores are exposed on these
they're from 1935 and 1937 respectively

the same engineer also made plans for 155mm and 203mm APDS but those are still missing

[spiral cedar]

Montana turret and barbette immune zones against Yamato APC:

Gun #1: JPN 46cm/45 APC Type 91

Turret immune zone
0k - 36k yards

Barbette immune zone
RA  | 90  - 80  - 70  - 60 - 50
yds | 21k - 20k - 15k - 6k - 0k

What this means:
Turret face is immune at all ranges. Turret roof can be penetrated at 37k yards and beyond.
Barbette will bounce shells striking flat-on at 21k yards, with RA (rotation angle) going out by 10 deg increments from flat-on. So from a range of 19-20k yards, Yamato can penetrate the barbette 17.4% of the time (shell lands between 0 and 10 deg from flat-on), from 14-15k yards Yamato can penetrate 34.2% of the time, and from 5-6k yards 50.0% of the time.

[maiden citrus]

[jovial elm]

Anybody remotely surprised that the Tornado is dead on arrival in warthunder. I said it would be about 9 months ago. Gaijin can't help themselves...

[tough quail]

fulcrums and intruders tho lets gooooooo

[manic latch]

It does have cool reverse feature tho

So there is that

[manic latch]

At current state Mig-29 will cause shitton of problems

[tough quail]

absolutely

thats why its funny

[manic latch]

I have no clue how they will balance her R73 missile or shoot by pilot view feature

[tough quail]

they'll do as war thunder do

they wont

[manic latch]

True

[spring briar]

There is a whale outside my window

[tough quail]

fight it

[spring briar]

It’s past midnght

Suddenly

Whale sounds

Wtf

[manic latch]

[manic latch]

Let this leak protect you Rich

It's a Char uhh 2C Bis

[spring briar]

Blessed

More whale sounds aaaaaaa

[manic latch]

Voices

[spring briar]

https://tenor.com/view/enage-kiss-anime-scared-kisara-gif-26118529

[ivory ridge]

Less CAS armament than the fucking fighters of the other nations, 11.3 so you have to uptier your lineups (and for Italy it's a double uptier, at least germany and UK have 11.0), pepega AAM armament

The tornado shouldve been the first gen 4 added to the game

[ivory ridge]

premium only intruder

[tough quail]

https://tenor.com/view/horse-cavalo-spin-meme-flip-gif-17331191

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1601726766674247680

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

During the Battle of Tarawa, the Marines' drinking water had been contaminated with gasoline. Fortunately, photographer Norm Hatch discovered a Japanese stash of 14 cases of Kirin beer. Thirsty Marines were shocked to be offered a beer in the middle of combat. #SeaStorySaturday

Twitter · Dec 10, 2022, 11:53 PM

[valid trout]

Lucky

But what is kirin beer

[spiral cedar]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/586627596884901898/1051337240762130482/image.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbinlite

https://www.vintagewings.ca/stories/blinded-by-the-light

Of course, operating in relatively close formation in the dark with barely visible lighting required radio work to fully communicate in an environment where hand signals did not work. This meant that instructions and communications via radio could be detected by the enemy. A system of code words and expressions were used to communicate command and intentions—all kept to the bare minimum. The pilot of the Turbinlite Havoc, unable to see the Hurricanes on his wings would ask “ARE YOU SNUGGLING?” (Are you in formation?) If he did see the Hurricanes and wanted them to close formation, he would order this with the single word “CONTRACT” and “EXPAND” if he wished the formation to open up. When the Havoc was within 5,000 feet of the target, the pilot would declare this with the single word “WARM.. If he wanted to tell the Hurricane pilots that he was dropping back he would say “COOLER.” At 3,000 feet back, he would declare “HOT,” to which the Hurricanes were obligated to confirm receipt of the message by saying “UNDERSTAND HOT.” Ten seconds before illumination, the Havoc pilot would say “BOILING.”

The Hurricane pilot had a code as well to communicate with the Havoc in the lead. Approaching the Havoc, and in need of the formation lights, he would say “SHOW UP” and if he felt that station keeping lights were too bright, he would say “CLOSE WINDOWS”. Other signals were “I AM DESOLATE” (I have lost you), “I AM SKYLARK” (I am above you), “I AM SNAKE” (I am below you) and “I AM PANCAKING” (Obliged to return to base).

In the summer of 1942, the Turbinlite Havoc was demonstrated for King George and Queen Elizabeth. It is not known whether this was a nighttime demonstration, but likely so. This would have been an impressive sight indeed. But sadly, the combat record of the Turbinlite Havoc and its parasite fighters was not nearly as impressive. From what I can tell, there were but a few actual contacts resulting in engagements with the enemy, and it seems that only one enemy aircraft was shot down as a result of the Turbinlite system—a Heinkel He 111. In the negative side, numerous Havocs and Hurricanes were lost while on Turbinlite operations. Most tragically however, on the night of 4–5 May 1942, a single Short Stirling bomber of 218 Gold Coast Squadron returning from an operation, was tracked, lit-up and shot down by a Havoc/Hurricane team. Given the obvious good lighting provided by the Turbinlite, it was indeed tragic that a four-engine bomber like this was shot down over England where no German four-engine aircraft were known to operate. When the sum is calculated, the Turbinlite experiment record is decidedly in the negative side.

[jovial elm]

They could have added the ADV multiple patches ago and it wouldn't have been op...

I keep saying it, Gaijin only gives Britain new stuff if it is powercrept before it is even added or is about to get nerfed I to the ground

[desert agate]

sorry sir but only the big 3 deserve to be OP

Britain can have a little OP as a treat

maybe a harrier or two

nerfed a few weeks after release of course

[spiral cedar]

Cook Cleland landed his VB-16 Dauntless on the Enterprise shortly after the ship’s narrow escape with the “double cut.” As he and his gunner prepared to climb out of their cockpits, the deck crew (nervous and tense over the last few minutes’ encounters) rushed up screaming that they had to push the battered plane overboard. Cleland tried to talk them out of it, but to no avail. His plane was going over the side.

Tired and strung out with nervous tension, he reached for his pistol and waved it at the deck crew. His beloved Dauntless remained on the Enterprise.

(Battle of the Philippine Sea)

While little Japanese air activity was evident throughout the day, a few snoopers did make appearances. Cowpens planes downed one Betty, while seven Belleau Wood fighters, returning from the abortive search/strike, ganged up on another of the twin-engined bombers and sent it cartwheeling into the water. The cruiser Vincennes picked up another kind of snooper when she reported capturing three Japanese carrier pigeons. Unfortunately for the intelligence officers, the birds were not carrying any messages. The cruiser did not report the fate of the pigeons.

[valid trout]

That’s one way to have your way

I can’t find any articles talking about that online

Where did you find it?

[ivory ridge]

@spring briar is there any reason to call these after one of the uncompleted Le Hardis or did the devs just pepega as i think they did

[spring briar]

Well

The L’intrepide class are improved le Hardis

L’Intrepide, L’Avengurier, Le Temeraire and L’Opiniatre

It’s sort of a subclass

[ivory ridge]

hmmge

[spring briar]

The improved le Hardis had DP 130’s iirc

[ivory ridge]

thanks

[spring briar]

Np

[manic latch]

Same reason as this

Soob got improvements over Gnevny class

[spring briar]

[ivory ridge]

someone in another server pointed out the wiki and the game had different classes but i thought the game was wrong

then again the wiki is not technically wrong either

[manic latch]

She has 2 funnels
While Gnevny class 1 funnel

[spring briar]

It’s complicated

That’s why shipgirls are women

[manic latch]

[ivory ridge]

with those being completed it's easier to find general information

[manic latch]

Tru

[ivory ridge]

hell, wikipedia has them as separate pages, so even easier to find

[spring briar]

But yea

No objections to their choice

[manic latch]

They didn't seperate Roma from Venetos right, despite upgrades

Guess too small to do

[ivory ridge]

nobody would consider that a subclass

[spring briar]

Yea nothing about the characteristics changed compared to the intrepides or soob

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

Y u sad

[manic latch]

My dearest didn't came to AL still

[alpine onyx]

Wiki doesn't consider Seydlitz and Lützow as a subclass to the first three

Despite changed machinery, much changed superstructure and the initial build as CLs

[spring briar]

Wiki bad

[ivory ridge]

Also in WT Russia is getting a Romanian destroyer built by Italy that was captured by the ussr in 1944

[alpine onyx]

Agano is stronger than Atlanta-Wiki

[spring briar]

Where MN

[manic latch]

My dearest has subclasses as Project 23Bis and NU. They would have started from the second batch of construction. Such as just same belt armor overall, American style tds only, and Italian style secondary layout

[spring briar]

[ivory ridge]

[spring briar]

Fubuki looks like soyuz

[manic latch]

[ivory ridge]

bote

[spring briar]

Balkan

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/romania-roaf2035-gif-22618905

[ivory ridge]

🅱️fors

[spring briar]

🇸🇪

[manic latch]

Look at it.

Belt is just 380mm full lenght now, American style TDS covers all parts, it has 2 more 100mm DP gun thanks to Italian layout style which makes use of Chapayev's triple 152mms instead using twin 152mms

[spring briar]

Three shaft

[manic latch]

4 shaft gets passed to in Project 24

[alpine onyx]

31kn

that is very optimistic

[spring briar]

Especially with the hull shape

Would this perhaps be for the pacific fleet?

[alpine onyx]

also still only three twin 100mm guns per side

thonk

[autumn sorrel]

How do the Soviet name their ship design? Using 'Project' with a long string of number have a meaning?

[spring briar]

not exactly long

considering their tank project numbers went in the 100's

[manic latch]

If 23 is a long number then I'm afraid of your math skills

[spring briar]

project 69

[manic latch]

[manic latch]

[autumn sorrel]

Well, I kinda not accustom to soviet naming convention nor to their design designation system.

[spring briar]

it's either
project with a number
or object with a number

it aint hard

[manic latch]

Object is tanks tho

[spring briar]

I know

[manic latch]

Shut

[spring briar]

still aint hard

[manic latch]

It's not like US is so different either

BB- number smh

Or CL- number smh

[autumn sorrel]

But they just give a number randomly or there actual meaning behind the designation.

So number given randomly?

[manic latch]

You could say that but

Higher the number= more likely its closer to our time

[spring briar]

unless object 780

[manic latch]

Karakurt class corvette for example is Project 2280.0

[spring briar]

[autumn sorrel]

So 2280.0 just given randomly and any number behind .1 denoted a subclass?

[manic latch]

Kinda ish. Like Kuznetsov is Project 1143.5 while Ulyanovsk was 1143.7

While Kiev class was 1143.0

They are heavily related as you see

[spring briar]

kremlin has a 5 year plan for soyuz

[manic latch]

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/rrane-battal-rrane-battal-kızgın-battal-kızgın-gif-25355985

[spring briar]

manjuu is on a 3 year plan for french events sadly

[manic latch]

Where is Volga, Project 72

[spring briar]

i am in constant pain

[manic latch]

Same

At least people don't start bullying French navy when they are mentioned

[spring briar]

you sure?

[autumn sorrel]

They have a navy?

[manic latch]

[autumn sorrel]

I thought they were called Royal Navy reserve Fleet

[frigid karma]

you know they shot at the brits too right

[chilly osprey]

Project numbers tend to have a greater prominence in the Soviet system because they tend to use them a lot more commonly to describe classes already in service, variants, and, with the rise of historical video games, often they are the only names attached to never-built projects.

Lots of navies, and companies even, use similar systems internally to describe designs. The Soviets just happen to be the most famous example.

[spring briar]

which is a USN reserve

kremmy

I'm gonna buy mclaughin's book soon

[tough quail]

https://twitter.com/Nexter_Group/status/1601257068349968384

Nexter_Group (@Nexter_Group)

L’#EMBT est notre vision du char de combat visant à nourrir la réflexion sur les systèmes de combat terrestres futurs. Concept innovant par son 4ème homme, il intègre les meilleures technologies pour traiter l’ensemble du spectre de menaces du champ de bataille contemporain.

Likes

275

Twitter · Dec 9, 2022, 4:46 PM

[spring briar]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669133963864047626/1051540228441116723/video0.mov

@tough quail
@manic latch should I make soyuz one?

[manic latch]

Good good. Don't forget Warship 2021 and 2022

[manic latch]

[delicate beacon]

Make one for De Ruyter
Too bad she isn't in wows

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

I fucking hate Wikipedia lagging when editing

God when I learn to use Wikipedia better I will finally make pages for Project 24, 72, etc

[delicate beacon]

Maybe I should too

[tough quail]

yos

[tough quail]

someone talk to me about how cool the mantlet looks

[spring briar]

is looks like fishe

[manic latch]

Done

Also added Project 23Bis and bit more details to 24

[spring briar]

you a wikipedia editor?

if no, expect it to be removed or atleast edited

[manic latch]

It was I who added Sovetskaya Gruziya to Soyuz's page. And it never got removed

So here is hoping for this one

[spring briar]

sinOP

[manic latch]

Sinop

[alpine onyx]

[spring briar]

@alpine onyx

our beloved

a tribute

[alpine onyx]

LaGal my beloved

May I ask for this dance?

[spring briar]

can we get some of her sisters PLEASE

[manic latch]

God why I'm more productive at night

When I have to wake up early

[spring briar]

you got mclaughin's book btw

[manic latch]

Ye

Sadly it's meh

You know why?

Mc didn't add the new info he shares in warship 2021 and 2022

[spring briar]

I also added warship 20xx articles to my french bb books

nothing unusual

[delicate beacon]

Why does John Campbell keep coming back to haunt me.

[lavish fable]

I see wows xD

[manic latch]

I see you

[manic latch]

Australia vs Pluto

Victim of classification history

[lavish fable]

[spiral cedar]

Red Sun Setting by William T. Y’Blood

[shrewd pecan]

never got the people who argue for Pluto remaining classified as a planet

shits so tiny in terms of planetary size and can't even clear its own orbit

[desert agate]

L pluto

[shrewd pecan]

On top of that it’s own moon is similar sized and it’s ripping Pluto

[spring briar]

I still love pluto

[frigid karma]

dunno why people call the dog a planet

[spring briar]

because it used to be and people hate change

especially to their childhood memories

[spiral cedar]

Love Pluto for what it is, rather than pretending it has to be something it’s not

[spring briar]

yes

[spiral cedar]

A really cool dwarf planet and the gateway to the outer Solar System

[spring briar]

can't wait to visit pluto station one day

Marie Curie station

[manic latch]

Belgian coal miners riding up on an elevator after a day of work, 1920s.

[spring briar]

[spring briar]

@manic latch Toulon ranked

Beast

[manic latch]

Nice work

[spring briar]

I put propulsion mod on her so I accelerate like a CL
and I use her to island hug

easily able to outplay BB's around islands

aesthetic shot

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1602033060727459843

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1941, the destroyers Hayate and Kisaragi became the first Japanese surface warships to be sunk following Pearl Harbor. Hayate exploded after being hit by Marine 5" coast-defense guns while Kisaragi was sunk by Marine Wildcats during the Battle of Wake Island.

Twitter · Dec 11, 2022, 8:10 PM

[valid trout]

Ah thanks

[delicate beacon]

And in one week the Dutch will sink Shinonome

[spring briar]

[delicate beacon]

reminder for everyone playing wows

Anyway back to looking for Tromp gun info

[spring briar]

I did notice while playing tromp that the backside of the turrer was exactly like that image you posted

[delicate beacon]

so cute

[spring briar]

True

[frigid karma]

Aww

[manic latch]

US Army MPF prototype at the Army/Navy game.

[dusty kraken]

Oh lord who's letting pepsi get military vehicles again

[manic latch]

Soviet anti-ship torpedo 65-76 caliber 650 mm (26 inches).The Type 65-76 torpedo has a warhead of at least 450 kg. Maximum range is about 50 km at its 50 kt maximum speed, or about 100 km at a slower pace of 30 kt.

[junior trench]

also famous for hideously poor construction quality and lethally volatile fuel

[manic latch]

Hmm

Need a source on that one

[junior trench]

Kursk

[autumn sorrel]

Is that the wake homing one? Have the russian upgrade them with a modern guidance package or they still use the soviet system?

[junior trench]

no

[manic latch]

So failure of one torpedo = all of them?

[junior trench]

there's a wake homing version, but wake homing is questionable to begin with

[manic latch]

At least this should make Reina happy

21 in Mark 48

[junior trench]

the last thing I want is for you to make me happy

[manic latch]

You like Challenge I see

Competitive nature fits you indeed

[spiral cedar]

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

The AESA radar of the Fujian aircraft carrier CV-18 has been installed

[celest fractal]

What generation of Fighter is the Me-262?

[manic latch]

First?

[spring briar]

First yes

[delicate beacon]

Finaly, the Me 262 is first in something

[eternal veldt]

First to burst into flames after 24 hours /s

[spring briar]

I don’t hate the 262 as much as I do with a lot of other german planes

[spiral cedar]

First jet Chuck Yeager shot down

[delicate beacon]

I like the He-162

It's so cute

[eternal veldt]

Me 262 looks sleek at least

Now, the Me 163...

[desert agate]

Chats getting weird again

Discord users when they see a woman

Found a book for my wishlist

One of my mates got it for his birthday and it's full of primary sources

[spring briar]

Western australia is just perth

[desert agate]

💀

WA is larger than half of Europe

[delicate beacon]

Nah Richie

Perth is the capital of all the coal mining villages there

[spiral cedar]

Eastern Australia is just New Zealand right

[spring briar]

Europe is tiny

[desert agate]

Iron ore actually

Coal is a Queensland thing

[spring briar]

France isn’t even a big country

[desert agate]

And WA is beeg

[spring briar]

Africa has all the big countries

And Asia

[desert agate]

BEEG

[spring briar]

And the americas

Europe smol

[desert agate]

2nd largest national subdivision of any country

Behind some Siberian oblast

Colonial history/indigenous genocide is really cool to study

[spring briar]

[desert agate]

Since I'm personally a product of it all

Albeit a different state

[maiden citrus]

hit is a plasma

[spring briar]

He can’t keep a hold of his electrons

[desert agate]

People seem to be under the assumption that just because the population has low density there's not much going on here but it couldn't be further from the truth

Fuck those electrons

[spring briar]

Western australia is big

Has perth

And sand

And pink lakes

Its a fantasy land

[desert agate]

And iron

Lots of iron

[spring briar]

Australia has so much iron its orange

And bc of age

Old ass landmass looking ass

[desert agate]

And WA has more than the rest of Australia combined

[spring briar]

Ofc

[desert agate]

Mmm 56% of exports in an export economy from 10% of the population

[spring briar]

Thats the very oldest crust meaning iron and other heavy elements have stayed near the surface

[desert agate]

and the oldest living culture on the planet

Much to Lang Hancock's disgust

[maiden citrus]

correct, australia has tons of nice archeological stuff

[desert agate]

Mmm almost as if the man whose entire wealth was built on raping the land of indigenous people wouldn't be too fond of the people protesting when he did just that

Also fun fact prior to the 50s it was widely believed that iron was a rare resource in Australia

[manic latch]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/royal-navy-seeking-loitering-munitions-for-ships/

[tribal mortar]

A question

If Dutch have its faction in AL

How strong they will be?

Will they filled by Ns and Rs

[eternal veldt]

@delicate beacon oi, your cue.

[tribal mortar]

or have some SR/SSR

[delicate beacon]

Commons and rares are no longer being done for events

We can see plenty of SSRs and even URs through DZP cruiser, Gerard Callenburgh DDs and P1047 battlecruisers

[spring briar]

@manic latch how hard does a mf have to carry in ranked...

[manic latch]

Rip

[spring briar]

my team killed 0 yes

[desert agate]

literally just LRASM/JSM

[ivory ridge]

@spring briar they found french voicelines for naval in the WT files

[spring briar]

don't give me hope

[delicate beacon]

Me: I need to quickly look up a specific ship's name and weapon, where do I go.
Navweaps: Me, me, me, pick me!
Me: Oh right, that's why I was going through this cataloguing effort.

[spring briar]

[lavish fable]

not hard enough it seems good sir

[delicate beacon]

And they said I'd never have maths problems like this in real life

[cinder escarp]

Samsonov claims the Brits were interested in a 17pdr equipped Jumbo.

Death to Panthers, Inshallah

[tough quail]

b a s e d

[deep apex]

This is the inquiry report for the collision between the RMS/HMT Queen Mary and her escort, C-class light cruiser HMS Curacoa

[halcyon coyote]

For those of you who are into this kind of thing, I found a site full of preliminary design drawings/specs of US Navy ships of World War vintage, both built and unbuilt. https://www.shipscribe.com/styles/index.html

[deep apex]

The blame was 1/3's to the Queen Mary, and 2/3's to Curacoa

[delicate beacon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuxBBOukLIQ

[spring briar]

show this to shiki

[delicate beacon]

"evil army, navy is angel"

[frigid karma]

Who’s shiki

[delicate beacon]

wows discord tojoboo

[ivory ridge]

Italian design

Essentially an Enlarged version of the Taksin/Etna class

[spring briar]

Thats nice

[delicate beacon]

Clyde didn't like this picture with subscript.

[tough quail]

https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/zj4u74/congrats_to_the_guy_who_sat_in_jtac_until_he_saw/

@spring briar will probably get a kick out of it

[spring briar]

All I see is a bunch of copium from A-10 fanboys

[shrewd pecan]

the A-10 experience

[delicate beacon]

The A-10 has the best ground attack and close air support capabilities. You only need air superiority, supressed enemy air defences, and anything else that makes it matter whether you're in a modern stealthcraft or a glorified cropduster

[deep apex]

A-10 has killed more friendlies than any other U.S. aircraft, is slow, vulnerable to MANPADs, and its targeting system is just a guy with a simple pair of binoculars which frequently misidentifies its targets.

AND has a modernization package that is more expensive than a brand-new F-35

AND hasn't been produced since the 1970s

[delicate beacon]

Pretty much

[frigid karma]

Which is why it got replaced by one

[delicate beacon]

Exactly

[tough quail]

remember kids mirage based

[tribal mortar]

Flygia

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1602448487504904196

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1937, USS Panay was attacked and sunk in China by Japanese forces. The Japanese claimed they had misidentified the ship and that the attack was an accident. The U.S. would be placed in a similar diplomatic conundrum 30 years later when USS Liberty was attacked by Israel.

Twitter · Dec 12, 2022, 11:41 PM

https://twitter.com/space_osint/status/1602340204509003776

Aerospace Intelligence (@space_osint)

The Royal Netherlands Navy (🇳🇱) has selected Naval Strike Missiles for the air-defence and command frigates.

The anti-ship missiles will be delivered from 2025 to replace the Harpoon missiles. The NSM missiles have a longer range and a more advanced targeting system.

Twitter · Dec 12, 2022, 4:30 PM

[desert agate]

The funny cessna

[desert agate]

That's very much underselling the capabilities and improvements of NSM over Harpoon

[ivory ridge]

Are you an NSM seller

Cuz you sound like one

[desert agate]

I'm an LRASM boy not an NSM girl

NSM is still cool

[tough quail]

haha flying tube explode

neato

[spiral cedar]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/586214066352029707/692392051534331904/saintmissile.png

Praise Saint Missile

[strong plank]

the missile knows where it is

[desert agate]

Best flying tube in the world

LRASM that is

NSM is a close second

People jumping on the hypersonics bandwagon have no idea just how much more effective these two missiles are

Denmark with the sick ass missiles

[tribal mortar]

I see....

A bunch of SR/Purples, and some SSR/Golds

but I don't see a UR Potential

or even there is, just 1

[delicate beacon]

Literally all CBs are UR in AL though.

[frigid karma]

um

akshually

https://tenor.com/view/nerd-emoji-gif-25994976

kala ideas is a gold CB

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/defenceview_id/status/1601447371556401153

defenceview (@defenceview_id)

First steel cutting of Frigate Merah Putih for the Indonesian Navy🇮🇩

Likes

460

Twitter · Dec 10, 2022, 5:23 AM

[manic latch]

Wait

War thunder forums leaked F-16's track record from 2019?

[delicate beacon]

[valid trout]

[maiden citrus]

iirc was older stuff

still was fouo but was just a manual

[spring briar]

how to actually spy on the US MIC:

1. become a WT content creator

2. there is no second step

[desert agate]

Corporal (later lieutenant) Reg Saunders of the 2/7th Battalion of the 2nd AIF found himself behind enemy lines after the fall of Crete to the Germans, after 7 months on the run from the Germans with some other soldiers from his unit, would eventually be evacuated by a British submarine
He would later go on to be the first aboriginal officer in the Australian army, serving on the Kokoda trail, and then later going on to fight in Korea in 3RAR

here he is as a Sergeant in 1943, just before his deployment to New Guinea

here he is in 1951 leading his company

[maiden citrus]

[tribal mortar]

US: It is easy target for us to have them sunk just in one seconds and our navy don't need to do anything, just use one of our planes and it will be super enough to sink one

[tribal mortar]

Dutch's will have Gold at best... Trust me or 1 UR at best

Kala Ideas exists

[manic latch]

Aren't they allies with US...

[desert agate]

not exactly

Indonesia has attempted to tow the line of neutrality between the US and China as it considers itself an important neutral state

however in recent years it has moved closer to the US and the West in general

If it were forced to pick a side it would almost without a doubt side with the West as its economic and geopolitical interests require a stable Indo-Pacific

[desert agate]

this is such a confusing message, what on earth are you trying to say here? What's your point? How is this relevant to anything? I genuinely have no idea

[remote monolith]

Indonesia's foreign policy amounts to toeing the line between east and west for the last 3 decades or so, but like hit said there's been a clear shift to the west more lately

although practically speaking closer western ties has started since the late 60s under Soeharto

[desert agate]

buying F-15s is a clear sign of Indonesia showing where its interest lie

[remote monolith]

the Sukhois are...less than satisfactionary

[desert agate]

yeah but the US doesnt sell to countries it thinks it might need to shoot at

[remote monolith]

its in Indonesia's interests to stay neutral and be in the good graces of most nations anyway, as an economical hub and major importer of western and eastern goods

the west has the most viable modern weaponry available for the military now due to, ahem, extraordinary circumstances so Prabowo takes that route

funny he's the one to begin the drive considering he used to be banned from the US due to being an unrepentant war criminal and all around shady person

[manic latch]

They are also pressured by US to not buy it or they might have got economical sanctions

Which is smart move by US using its trade power to get weapon exporting monopoly

[autumn sorrel]

It might be bit of problem for country still use soviet weapon system when they want to do business with Rus like VN

[tough quail]

buy rafales instead

[remote monolith]

never heard of that in domestic news before

[manic latch]

Of course you didn't

[autumn sorrel]

Different weapon system and the MoD don't like to spend money

[tough quail]

I mean that's just standard export business for large powers

[manic latch]

But Turkey gave a good example of possible consequences if you buy from someone that US doesn't like

You will get certain sanctions

[remote monolith]

idk sounds farfetched

especially since Indonesia ultimately does buy Sukhois

and crashed one in 2012

[tough quail]

to be fair turkey are also uh

Crazy assholes

[humble mulch]

Turkey was also trying to get F35s and isn't exactly the best of friends to anyone

[tough quail]

who are only in NATO because of the Dardanelles

otherwise they probably would've been bombed to shit by them Serbia style ages ago

[autumn sorrel]

Turk will be Turk, I am not surprise that they try Ottoman 2.0 in the middle east

[manic latch]

They were going to buy SU-35s as replacement to their older SUs but US warned them not to

So they will go with F-15EXs now

Which of course benefits US

[humble mulch]

Love that name

"F-15EX"

[tough quail]

F-15EXUltra69 Black Edition™️

[manic latch]

It's a very smart marketing by US. If you can't afford F35 you can get those

[remote monolith]

meh, sounds like a wise pick given recent developments honestly. Having all of the air force grounded doesn't sound like fun

[manic latch]

Well they didn't buy F35s so they won't get grounded time to time

Don't worry about that

[tribal mortar]

I mean... The ship would still be sunkable by US Navy easily and they don't need even too much effort to do so...

[tough quail]

use the sukhois as tanks

[tribal mortar]

This is Indonesia that we are talking about... and if there is gacha game based on modern Navy, this ship would be one of the weakest

[manic latch]

Why you so interested on US sinking Indonesia ships

[remote monolith]

...and the US would sink them because, why?

[tough quail]

just drive them around shooting the gun on the ground

[remote monolith]

there's literally no reason for them to

[autumn sorrel]

Many people in the region will have a different view on that

[tribal mortar]

I mean... While it is just impossibru nor it is not interested the essence was, Anyone who has navy as strong as US Navy and even below it just by one tier, don't need effort to sunk that ship

[remote monolith]

the Indonesian Navy is a mostly patrolling navy anyway, not one to challenge naval supremacy with anyone that has a half-decent fleet

[tough quail]

world's biggest navy sinks small island nations navy in theoretical combat

[tribal mortar]

I get it tho

[tough quail]

news at six

[manic latch]

Bro what's the point here

[tribal mortar]

Yeah, agree

[remote monolith]

ok so, then what? That applies not just to Indonesia so I don't see the point of suddenly bringing in the US Navy in

anywho

@desert agate https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/dec/06/queensland-graziers-unearth-100m-year-old-plesiosaur-remains-likened-to-rosetta-stone

wake the fuck up

[manic latch]

Dinos

[autumn sorrel]

More dinos, yay

[tribal mortar]

Okay then... I mean, it would take no effort to sink one of those ships....

Unless I am wrong

like dead wrong

[desert agate]

theres a difference between a close NATO ally buying your most advanced aircraft suddenly cozying up to one of your geopolitical opponents and Indonesia buying whatever it wants to buy

[remote monolith]

ackshually that's a reptile, not a dinosaur, of whom were closer to birds 🤓

[manic latch]

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/indonesia-cancels-su-35-purchase-after-pressure-from-us-jakarta-is-keen-on-buying-f-35-instead/

[remote monolith]

actually no, dinosaurs ARE birds

[manic latch]

It can't buy whatever it wants lad

US doesn't like it

[remote monolith]

hence we can say that we've been slaughtering and eating dinosaurs for millenia now

[desert agate]

well yeah i mean the US told Indonesia if you want to buy our fighter jets you cant buy from Russia too

thats kinda

[maiden citrus]

flintstones was accurate

[desert agate]

exactly how military acquisition works

you dont sell to potential enemies

[humble mulch]

Also yeah I also see zero why to even bring the USN into the conversation of the Indonesia navy

[desert agate]

buying hardware geopolitically aligns you with the country youre buying from

[manic latch]

[remote monolith]

better to insert dinosaurs into a military oriented conversation ay

wink wink

nudge nudge

[manic latch]

We need non nation aligned military companies, tho that sounds kinda impossible

[desert agate]

if Indonesia is going around buying Russian hardware it makes them reliant on Russia for parts, training and maintenance and gives Russia greater influence in Indonesian foreign policy as a result

[autumn sorrel]

I wish VN can have the same important to US like Indonesia. But kinda hard to snuggle up to US when you are directly next to CN

[valid trout]

Switzerland

[tough quail]

aw man snail back pedaled and took away the fulcrums funny hmd missile

[manic latch]

Yeah which is why US stepped in. More US influence

[humble mulch]

Those I feel usually are small arms companies only but still have side issues do to how small arms are done

[desert agate]

the US doesnt want it's advanced hardware and software leaking through to its potential adversaries because the Russians pressured/stole from Indonesia to give it to them

[tough quail]

like I said, standard export afair

[desert agate]

it's common sense military export policy

[manic latch]

Like US currently handles all monopoly on Fifth gen export and vtols since

1. Harrier's fucking died now
2. F-35's production numbers

[desert agate]

if there are Russian maintenance personnel on Indonesian bases there's literally nothing stopping one of them being a spy and stealing important technical information on the F-35

[manic latch]

[humble mulch]

Yeah so that's a valid concern for the US

[manic latch]

I wanted Su-35 and F-35 to fly together

[humble mulch]

But also works in Indonesias interests

[valid trout]

watches conversation on Indonesian military influence

[humble mulch]

That would be funny

[tough quail]

give it another couple decades

[desert agate]

also like, the only people that want Harrier capability right now are Western aligned

[tough quail]

some weird shit will happen and someone will have the combo

[remote monolith]

not something you see every day considering how much of a joke its been

[tough quail]

it always happens eventually

[valid trout]

Those planes will be out of date and they can steal all they want on them

[desert agate]

so they wouldnt be buying F-35bs from Russia or China if they had export options available

which they dont

[manic latch]

Wouldn't that be useful for China? Many islands, and helicopter carriers

[desert agate]

because they dont want that capability themselves

light carriers aren't useful unless you want to project power outside your areas of influence

[tough quail]

or you get something weird like India being the modern Paris commune

[desert agate]

'Chinese' islands all have proper airbases on them and their LHDs will be operating within the range of land based aircraft in any Taiwanese operations

[tough quail]

running t-90s and rafales together

[humble mulch]

Most nations are mainly defensive in how they operate so they don't need the power projection as much

[manic latch]

Yosh

[desert agate]

and if the Chinese make any moves on Malacca (which they will probably need to) they have 3 fleet carriers

[valid trout]

Malacca?

[desert agate]

the straits of Malacca

between Sumatra and the Malayan peninsula

[valid trout]

And they have 3? I thought they only had 2

[valid trout]

Ah ok

[manic latch]

Lian, Shan, Fujian

4 under construction if rumours are true

[humble mulch]

They finished one rather recently

[desert agate]

1 Kuznetsov, 1 Kuznetsov clone, 1 Indigenous carrier

[humble mulch]

Like last 2 years iirc?

[desert agate]

not complete

and like a few months ago

she had her naming ceremony

[humble mulch]

Ah

So not commissioned yet

[valid trout]

Ah ok

[desert agate]

she still needs to finish working up (the catapults arent operational yet for example) and go on sea trials

[humble mulch]

Yeah

[manic latch]

Yeah it's getting the radars fitted on, and the AWACS it will use "KJ-600" is flying around

[desert agate]

regardless China doesnt have the requirements for fixed wing aircraft on its LHDs

[autumn sorrel]

Hey @manic latch , why didn't the soviet use catapult on their carrier?

[humble mulch]

Love AWACS

[desert agate]

poor

[autumn sorrel]

Not even when they are rich?

[valid trout]

And cus it was the soviets

[chilly osprey]

Type 003 is probably not going to be in service for several years

[valid trout]

They probably thought ah yes our planes and aircraft carrier are so good we don’t need da catapult

[chilly osprey]

And even then it's probably going to be looking at a long period of working up

[desert agate]

Soviets spending money on undersea warfare
💸 Soviets spending money on surface combatants

[manic latch]

Well early designs of Kuznetsov had catapults, and they had a project named Orel who also used catapults

But catapults takes time to develop from 0, is more expensive to operate and maintain as said (QE's decision was likely this as well, and irrc ramps are just faster to launch planes compared to catapults (but catapults can make plane carry more stuff)

Ulyanovsk for example was going to have 1 catapult to launch AWACS

[strong plank]

If smaller countries like Indonesia were basing their military investments on how well they would do against the US, they’d already be fucked

but they’re not, because that’s not why they invest in their military

[autumn sorrel]

At that point, they might as well invest in nuke, way more efficient

[humble mulch]

Just MAD it

[valid trout]

But do they have the technology to develop their own nuke?

[humble mulch]

Probably not, given they Probably dont want that

[strong plank]

Like this would make sense if Indonesia had any thoughts about throwing down with the US, but they don’t

[desert agate]

developing nuclear weapons after nuclear non-proliferation is a very easy way to fuck over the international standing that Indonesia has spent decades building

[humble mulch]

That as well

[manic latch]

Here is the Orel for example

[autumn sorrel]

Terra Invicta moment, "Iceland test their first Nuke"

[humble mulch]

Most nations don't want nuclear problems

[desert agate]

also the Indonesian navy could indeed stand up to the USN for a time if it were to come to blows

[humble mulch]

And there's a lot of backlash with it

[strong plank]

It’s like if you were buying a car and went “well it has good mileage and can get me to work on time, but if I ever take it to a racing circuit I’ll get smoked so why bother”

[desert agate]

it wouldnt last long but it wouldnt be entirely helpless

[humble mulch]

Yeah irl isn't some rts gimmick shit

[remote monolith]

the Indonesian Navy would resort to local shamans sending curses towards any incumbent US president to automatically wins the fight, source: some guy I met

[autumn sorrel]

You know, I pretty sure they have a missile silo like the Kunetzov on that ship, something I really like about the soviet is their ability to cram missile on every ship they have.

[humble mulch]

There's also, still not a big reason for either nation to fuck with each other like that

[chilly osprey]

Indonesian's chances against a single CSG are very slim, tbh

[manic latch]

16 × PU "Granite" SCR Missile

[valid trout]

CSG? I’m not very good with ship designations

[manic latch]

You are correct

[desert agate]

Indonesias advantage is they have islands to duck behind

[autumn sorrel]

Maybe that explain why no cata, no space left if you want missile

[desert agate]

carrier strike group

[manic latch]

But Orel has missiles tho

[chilly osprey]

Carrier Strike Group - think a CVN, a CG, and five DDGs + support ship and an SSN or two lurking around

[valid trout]

Ah ok

[autumn sorrel]

It must be a very large ship for all of those machinery then, it canceled due to cost?

[manic latch]

You can fit it in if you make make single catapult

[strong plank]

I mean yeah that’s the biggest point

if you’re building your military to protect yourself and all that

[humble mulch]

Like didn’t Indonesia take part in Rimpact?

[desert agate]

so if a CSG were to come south and fuck with Indonesia it would first need to deal with Indonesian airborne assets since Indonesia would almost certainly be fighting defensively, as it does so Indonesia could hypothetically use its archipelago to duck out from littoral islands, fire a salvo of missiles and then hide again, of course once the USN gets aerial superiority the Indonesian navy wont last long but up until then they do have tactics they can use to inflict some damage or at least stress the Americans out

[autumn sorrel]

Look reasonable

[strong plank]

you’re not gonna measure it by “can I throw hands with the world’s premier naval power”

[desert agate]

they are a regular participant in RIMPAC yeah

[humble mulch]

Yeah

[manic latch]

Yes project was seen too expensive, which created the development of Kuznetsov class instead

But her design inspired the Ulyanovsk class which would come after Kuznetsov class

[humble mulch]

So like, this is basically a Naval Ally to the US

I think they'd be happy to know their buddy is keeping up with their navy

[desert agate]

again Indonesia isnt directly a US ally but are aligning themselves to the US gradually

[chilly osprey]

The issue is, Indonesia's air force is not exactly great in terms of fighters, and lacks enablers like AWACS and tankers.

You kind of can't effectively push away a CSG with guerilla tactics when their situational awareness is much greater than your own. Fundamentally they have almost no way to mass a strike that might really threaten an American CSG.

[autumn sorrel]

Well, soviet dream big but their economy often get in the way, I actually want to see they build all of those crazy concept that they have.

[chilly osprey]

The US could even go fairly lax on the makeup of strike packages because Indonesian GBAD is very, very limited

[strong plank]

I don’t know enough about Indonesia’s military to contribute to this matchup

[humble mulch]

I think the main point was

[desert agate]

i said its a hypothetical tactic not necessarily an effective one but they could certainly land a hit if they actually managed it

[humble mulch]

It's not a click and delete thing

[strong plank]

I just think “can they fight the US” is a really poor metric for judging their procurement

[manic latch]

Here is the list for example

First one is the Orel
Second one is Kuznetsov using catapult
Third one is improved Kiev class project
Last one is the Kuznetsov we have today

[chilly osprey]

Oh, it is absolutely

If anything this scenario just emphasizes it

[desert agate]

yeah

[chilly osprey]

Their air force badly needs modernization, as does the air defense capacity of their surface forces

[valid trout]

Would the Australian navy be able to take on the Indonesian navy fairly easily?

[humble mulch]

There's also zero reason for that

[valid trout]

Or would it struggle

[desert agate]

yes

[autumn sorrel]

Orel class would be nuclear power right? Why the decision to make nuclear BC but not CV?

[chilly osprey]

As things stand now an American CSG, or a formation equivalent to it, can basically just stand off and pummel it from the air without ever coming into range of Indonesia's anti-ship missile delivery platforms. The navy doesn't have the air defense to defend itself, nor are their the land batteries to do so, and the air force is mostly out-classed by a CSG's air wing.

[humble mulch]

Hits talked about it before, iirc the Australian could beat their navy but not exactly make landfall?

[valid trout]

Then this just proves that the the Indonesian armed forces need mordernization if they want to stay alive if a war broke out

[desert agate]

ADF doctrine is entirely supposed on the total domination of the air-sea gap which includes Eastern Indonesia

[valid trout]

Yes because they are neighbours

[manic latch]

She would be nuclear yes.

Kuznetsov was a "short" budget ship for larger being like Ulyanovsk class. Who would have nuclear reactors.

[strong plank]

didn’t Kirov have issues with her reactor or something

[desert agate]

firstly Australia and Indonesia aren't going to war any time soon
secondly there's absolutely no amount of modernisation the Indonesian navy could do that would stop the RAN from wiping the floor with them

[manic latch]

With collapse yes. They left without attention for 10 years

[autumn sorrel]

So Kirov is a testbed for nuclear power plant?

[strong plank]

I’d imagine they’d want to sort those problems out before making future nuclear powered ships

ah

[manic latch]

This is why 2 Kirov is getting scrapped while other 2 is fine

Since other 2 was younger

[valid trout]

True true

[desert agate]

the Timor crisis is long behind policy makers in Jakarta and Canberra, both nations desire friendly relations and a stable Indo-Pacific

[manic latch]

I would say the first nuclear icebreakers of Soviet Union lol

[valid trout]

I’m just wondering tho- would the ww2-1970s RAN be able to beat modern day Indonesia?

[desert agate]

uh thats a very long time period there

[autumn sorrel]

Is that thing still sail? I am not well verse in ice breaker ship.

[desert agate]

but probably not

[manic latch]

Lenin become a museum now

[desert agate]

between 1965-1972 possibly

prior to that no

[manic latch]

In Murmansk

[strong plank]

man now I’m remembering when I was doing research for that paper

[valid trout]

Yeh the time period when the RAN had 2 CVLs

[remote monolith]

even if a war break out, and a force landed in Java...then what? There's several more islands, all of them has their own territorial defense command, and dense foliage to hide in, so it'll mostly grind to a difficult stalemate which no one are keen on

[chilly osprey]

1970s RAN probably does lose due to the proliferation of AShMs in the modern Indonesian navy, and the lack of effective counters at the time. And even if Indonesia's naval air defense is limited now, it's still a lot for aircraft of teh 60s and 70s to handle.

[strong plank]

“Alright got a book on Soviet armor, let’s see what it’s got on the BMP”

book published shortly after the BMP entered service

[valid trout]

Reminds me of the Vietnam war

[strong plank]

that was a surprisingly fun paper to write

I ended up tracking down the original 1976 MiG-25 exploitation report

Gerald R Ford presidential library had it

[desert agate]

Sydney stopped operating aircraft in the 50s because of structural deficiencies (thanks WW2 British steel manufacturing)
Melbourne is the only viable aircraft carrier in RAN service after Sydney is placed into reserve
I was basing my assessment on the Perth class DDGs being in service which are the closest the RAN would have to a combatant capable of taking on the Indonesians alongside Melbournes Skyhawks

but yeah RAN probably doesnt stand much of a chance regardless

[chilly osprey]

Yeah. And that's not a diss on the RAN at the time, tbh

No one at the time (70s) is going to have very effective counters to modern AShMs ('90s-2010s)

[valid trout]

Sh yes that’s what I meant I couldn’t remember the time period lol

[manic latch]

Here is the Nuclear Ulyanovsk. Has ramp and 2 steam Catapults. Of course also has 12 Granit launcher.
She was %40 finished in 1991.
Problem was she was under construction in Soviet Ukraine. So she belonged to Ukraine after 1991
Of course they didn't had funding at all to finish a ship like this, so they decided to scrap her in 1992. Varyag (sister of Kuz) was luckier, she was finished rather high percentage which Ukraine sold to China later. Who become Type 001 today.@autumn sorrel

[chilly osprey]

Tartar or Terrier versus a modern sea skimmer? Not happening.

70s ECM/EA against modern ECCM/EP? Not saving you at all.

[valid trout]

Rip to the Russians

[desert agate]

if you fuck with the timeline a little you could give Perth a RIM-66

[autumn sorrel]

Shame

[desert agate]

but still not going to make a huge difference

they did have some damn nice aesthetic

[strong plank]

https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/document/0324/1553702.pdf

[desert agate]

and the Indonesians could probably knock down Melbournes skyhawks with relative ease too

[manic latch]

If she only had 3-4 more years

[desert agate]

at the very least the more modern corvettes have MICAs

[chilly osprey]

Yeah, unfortunately the RIM-66 available at the time still isn't going to do very well against modern sea-skimmers

[valid trout]

Is this the stern of the Nuclear ship?

[manic latch]

She was at this state in 1991 (colored means finished)

[chilly osprey]

RIM-66B had an engagement floor of about 18 meters, and something like Exocet MM40 is flying at 5-10 meters

[valid trout]

So only the centre of the flight deck and the bottom of the hull

[manic latch]

Yes, which is theory she could have float if launched

[desert agate]

RAN of the 70s was a capable force for its time (although the unfortunate loss of a fixed wing air arm did harm it somewhat) but up against the weapons systems of today it really couldnt fight

[manic latch]

If Union launched her before collapse, and dragged her to Russian waters. Maybe things would go differently

[desert agate]

looks like the Indonesians are looking at getting frigates going forwards which is an interesting leaning towards peer surface combatants

will be interesting to see where that goes

[valid trout]

Very differently yes

[chilly osprey]

Yeah, they should be a big boost

[manic latch]

Well
At least she lives though China now. Type 003 is inspired by Kuznetsov class but larger. Similar to Ulyanovsk here. So I call Fujian as Ulyanovsk's cousin

[chilly osprey]

The two Iver Huitfeldt-based hulls they're about to build are supposed to be AAW vessels

And then the plan is to follow that up with six FREMM for ASW, though those hulls can also be used as AAW platforms if they really want to (w/ 2x Maestrale as part of the deal, but they probably won't stay in service for more than a decade).

[desert agate]

Hobart and Hunter will still kick ass regardless but the whole Australia vs Indonesia schtick is kinda overdone by nationalists both here and up North

[valid trout]

Works ig

[chilly osprey]

Yeah honestly I didn't realize until recently how much people do the Australia vs Indonesia thing

[desert agate]

Australia's air-sea gap doctrine is kind of impregnable by anyone that isn't a first class peer opponent

[manic latch]

Bro I forget Indonesia had enemies

[desert agate]

nationalists here think Indonesia is a ticking time bomb or a Chinese puppet state or something and that we should be preparing for war any day now
nationalists in Indonesia seem to think we're expansionist colonisers or something

[valid trout]

And then the Solomon island lol

[desert agate]

it's a curious matchup since it's a country with a massive population yet relatively poor against a nation with a small population but extremely rich

so it's kinda money vs manpower

but the fact is that neither side can gain a proper advantage over the other under any circumstances

[manic latch]

Money wins when there is a sea between no?

Fleets need money

[valid trout]

Indonesia just builds a bridge out of humans lol

[desert agate]

Australia can close off sea lanes and gain air supremacy but it cant actually land troops where Indonesia's main political and economic centres are located

and Indonesia can't even touch Australias political and economic centres

so it's basically just a case of both sides aggressively staring at each other in the event of war

[valid trout]

Because they are all on the south east sides of Australia

[manic latch]

Can you bomb capital till they stop tho?

[desert agate]

when in history has that ever worked

[manic latch]

Belgrade

[desert agate]

well yes

but kinda no

because there was a huge ground element too

[manic latch]

Well US used nukes but uhh
That's too much of a way to do things now

[desert agate]

Australian precision strike capability is the main deterrent against potential Indonesian aggression

[chilly osprey]

Japan in 1945 is definitely an extreme case

[valid trout]

Tokyo firebombings did nothing but set fires

[manic latch]

For sure

But if you can't stop enemy by using land army. You ended up using bombings as I don't know no other options

[chilly osprey]

The lengths the Japanese felt they had to go in order to not unconditionally surrender were just insane

I mean, invasion was on the cards

[manic latch]

Operation Downfall ye

But that would be too much losses

[chilly osprey]

But if Japan had been invaded it would have also been with something like 15 nuclear bombs used (iirc, 8 on 'D'-Day and 7 in the following weeks?)

[desert agate]

during the Timor crisis the Indonesian parliament was debating whether to go to war with Australia or not and the Indonesian defence minister (or his equivalent title) said that "The Australians have a plane that can drop a bomb through that window onto that table in front of us" (referring to the F-111)
but in the event of a shooting war it's not like that would end things

[valid trout]

Invasion of the mainland would have just been stupid

[desert agate]

but it also depends on the reasons for war

Timor was localised

once Australia achieved its aim the fighting stopped

and countries dont go to war over nothing

I doubt Indonesia could do much about Australia pulling a Timor in West Papua but again, it wouldnt happen for no reason

[manic latch]

US for example is at this very comfortable position of them having less than %1 chance of ever getting invaded by land. You have to defeat US Navy later air force to achieve that ever

[desert agate]

once one side achieves its aims the conflict is generally not going to last much longer

[valid trout]

And then the patriotism with their guns

[desert agate]

Australia isnt going to declare a war over unrealistic war aims (unlike a certain European country) and Indonesia is hardly going to do the same

[manic latch]

Oh yeah civilians will have guns in every house

[autumn sorrel]

2nd Admenment should be universal

[chilly osprey]

Not even just that, but on the continental US you have the US army.... and the national guard (which has their own air force)... and the fact that the continental US is a defender's dream

[manic latch]

That's why if US ever loses (in its Homeland) its %100 will be by nukes if you ask me

[valid trout]

Which one

[strong plank]

something something rifle behind every blade of grass

[desert agate]

due to the rules of avoiding discussion of current events i will not answer that question

you can figure it out

[valid trout]

And the DSS and national security

And a whole bunch of other stuff

[valid trout]

Ah I know which country now

[remote monolith]

here's the thing, central government control over outlying provinces has historically been tenuous and separatism is a real issue not 20 years ago. If you decapitate the Jakartan government they you're very likely to be left with rampant warlordism with extra jungle warfare

[autumn sorrel]

That would be an aft description

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/steamed-hams-aurora-borealis-what-is-happening-fagetti-wtf-gif-16514726

[remote monolith]

there's a reason that modern Indonesia opted to let provinces mostly govern themselves and even grant special rights to some, realistically its not capable or strong enough to rule directly when separated by water and difficult terrain

[valid trout]

And volcanoes

[remote monolith]

and volcanoes, yes

Australia also has the continent issue so an invasion of it is impossible either

[valid trout]

The conversation has just died lol

[remote monolith]

so here we are

[remote monolith]

excellent, its time

[valid trout]

The outback

[remote monolith]

https://news.sky.com/story/patagotitan-mayorum-colossal-dinosaur-that-dwarfs-dippy-the-diplodocus-to-go-on-display-in-uk-12757080

https://scitechdaily.com/landmark-study-dinosaurs-were-in-their-prime-when-asteroid-hit-earth/

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-10/ancient-tasmanian-reptiles-and-dinosaurs-tasmaniosaurus/101748220

[autumn sorrel]

Considering Australia is Catachan lite, I am more afraid of the nature than people

[desert agate]

the uh

[valid trout]

I live in Aus and I’m more scared of being killed by an animal

[desert agate]

biggest problem is getting here

[remote monolith]

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ankylosaur-dinosaur-tail-club-bludgeon

[desert agate]

Indonesia and what sea lift