history

[frigid karma]

I wanna see those Chinese horses with anti radiation gear

The great horde cares not for atomic weaponry

[tawny harness]

To be fair, it was a little more than that. Churchill want to governed Britian like he used to it in the war and nobody like that. To make it worse, he make a smear campaign that compared to the Larbor to the Gestapo which really ticked the majority of the British citizens at that time. Again, while Churchill was focus on the war, it was Clement Attlee who feed and take care of the people.

[spiral cedar]

Oh certainly, was not saying that was the sole reason

Just an amusing anecdote

I certainly have my share of issues with Churchill as a wartime leader

[tawny harness]

Blame Liz Truss for that

[tawny harness]

He is a little complicated in the end

[spiral cedar]

🥬

[remote monolith]

also regarding why they don't just continue firebombing Japan, aside from what Jaba said I believe there was a degree of uncertainty regarding how long it would take until Japan actually gives out from blockades or bombings, and post-war materials reveals that Japan could have survived well into 1946 and possibly more with what stocks they have. Prolonging the war to potentially another year isn't something anyone was willing to entertain by that point, especially since you still have to put large amounts of men and material to ensure nothing slip past the blockade and giving more time for Japan

this is assuming they would rather try starving them out rather than doing the all-out assault that was Downfall

[spiral cedar]

Every month the war went on cost the lives of at least 200,000 Asians, according to UN estimates

So if the nuclear bombs shorten the war by even a month (let alone the expected year+ a ground campaign or blockade would take) it’s already a net savings in lives

[tawny harness]

Does that only count the soldiers or any citizens that the Japanese want to have some 'fun times' with?

[spiral cedar]

Civilians too

Even the Soviet entry into the war probably killed more people than the nukes—Japanese and US historians find that probably at least 300,000 of the captured never returned

(mostly because years in Siberian POW camps is not good for health)

[tawny harness]

Once you go into the Gulag, you probably never return

[spiral cedar]

I believe the wartime average is that 1/3 of Axis POWs never returned from Soviet captivity, compared to about 2/3 of Soviet POWs in German camps, 1% of Western POWs in German camps, and a bit less than 1% German POWs in Western Allied camps

[tawny harness]

Interestingly, when we start counting the POW number on the Eastern Front, the number can be very skewed due to German methodology in counting and their policy which often have a mixture of practicalism and 'exterminate the sub-human'.

[spiral cedar]

Yeah, the POW numbers don't include the German habit of shooting surrendering Red Army soldiers instead of taking them prisoner

(But it does add to their "kill ratios")

[tawny harness]

At one point, Glantz did stated in his Operation Barborassa book that a lot of time, the German lumped both POW and soldier who still fighting at one so when you looked up to 4 mil casualities in the first 2 years of the Eastern Front, you could see that it is most likely 60 to 70% of these 'casualities' are probably POW and the German just shoot to hell and back or being put in working camp where they would be forced to to work till death.

A similar problem was seen with US back in Vietnam too

[manic latch]

As Tato said. Soviet fleet was under their own construction plan to have a much larger navy. We are speaking of more than 300 ships under construction here. That's why Invasion really ruined it all

[tawny harness]

Those steels would probably be more productive for new T-34 and KV-1 tanks, not to included rebuilt the air force which basically gone back to almost zero.

[manic latch]

%100 for sure yes. But that logical choice is the reason why people mock Soviets not having ships. Soviets did the right choice for them still. But well it wouldn't hurt to have more cruisers and destroyers tho. Since Leningrad and Sevastopol siege was focused on naval artillery too

And using destroyers more for escorting like Gremyashchy

[frigid karma]

No one mocks the Soviets for not having ships

Everyone knows the ussr was primarily a land focused power in ww2

Hence why resources were diverted

People mock NP for getting 3 events and a UR before French and England

Despite having a minor navy

[maiden citrus]

yeah, it's more overrepresentation

[frigid karma]

It’s the same reason why Germany is shat on

[tawny harness]

Leningrad could certainly use some more ships. Espeically with the Siege which is as brutal as Stalingrad itself or even more

[junior trench]

it's also linked to jokes around WoWS

[spring briar]

[frigid karma]

Everyone knows the German navy was small, that it was second fiddle to the army, and that many of its ambitious plans are cut short by war

People hate the fact they get 5 events and a trillion rainbows

[manic latch]

Oh yeah Leningrad had large starvation problem.

[tawny harness]

The Kriegsmarine is small?

[frigid karma]

Compared to its rivals yes

[spring briar]

Tiny

[maiden citrus]

yup

[junior trench]

because WoWS did a """naval legends""" video about Soyuz, which never was built, and compared it favorably to the likes of Montana and Yamato, and a submarine, which is """famous""" for missing its shot

[manic latch]

According to Phoenix's data. It was just 60k tons more than Soviet navy

[maiden citrus]

like the soviets it's highly overblown

[frigid karma]

And some random fuckoff “carrier killer” missile boat that did nothing pass its trials

[junior trench]

"our famous submarine which claimed to have torpedoed Tirpitz"

[spiral cedar]

The Kriegsmarine lost 50% of its operational DD fleet in 1940 in one fjord

[junior trench]

"it missed"

[frigid karma]

For info on how she would’ve done I refer you to another carrier killer called - (dragged off stage)

[tawny harness]

Didn't they make a shit ton of submarines to fuck with the British convoy?

[frigid karma]

Never sank more than one percent of shipping

So

Yay

Also 25% death rate

[spiral cedar]

Yeah, a bit over a thousand U-boats. But other navies made thousands of small boats and patrol craft

[spring briar]

Yeah but subs arent surface ships

[frigid karma]

Highest death rate of the war

[spiral cedar]

70%

[maiden citrus]

yeah was about to say

25% was the uh

[tawny harness]

Damn, fucking Sabaton give me an image of super German submarine

[maiden citrus]

survival rate

[tawny harness]

[spring briar]

[maiden citrus]

they did pressure the british a lot early, but nothing like the ww1 capabilities of the overall german navy

much like in ww1, the us kinda came in and uboats became coffins

[junior trench]

U-boats dropped like flies the moment the CVE hunter killer groups started roaming the Atlantic

[maiden citrus]

there are cvls with a dozen uboat kills under their belts

[spiral cedar]

Fun fact, Outbound North 92 (second from top) got a Sabaton song about it

The long route back, Convoy 92
Bury, Gleaves and Ingham leading
Tankers to the west
And upon the North Atlantic
Lies the silence of the sea
And on the quietest night in the darkest hour
The Kriegsmarine appear```
The Sabaton song “Wolfpack” is about that convoy

You might remember these lines:

Bury stands in flames
Half the convoy sunk or disabled
Heading back to shore```

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoy_ON_92

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/515583624083406848/826653845983723530/image0.png

[tawny harness]

Yeah, really make me think German submarine being badass and shit

[frigid karma]

I would not recommend sabaton for serious historical analysis

[spiral cedar]

8/46 “sunk or disabled”

Definitely half

[frigid karma]

Literarature is better

[spiral cedar]

Creative math there

[junior trench]

it was also a westbound convoy

so "heading back to shore" in this context was

arriving at their destination

[tawny harness]

Interesting

[spiral cedar]

If you want to read more about the U-boat war, there's an old conversation up here about the myths

[manic latch]

Sabaton is biased for German stuff which makes the Wehrbs believe their lyrics as well.

Like "She was made to rule the 7 seas" gives you impression that Germans designed Bismarck to be strongest BB ever. While that's not really true especially with arrival of H designs

[tawny harness]

I guess German submarines was much cooler back in WW1

[spring briar]

Eh

[maiden citrus]

german fleet in general was much stronger in ww1

[junior trench]

eh

[maiden citrus]

with more peer to peer equal designs too

[junior trench]

"what are you going to do with all these ships"

"fleet in being even harder"

[remote monolith]

even at their highest success rate, the u-boats never really got close to actually starving out Britain. There were over a thousand US boats yes, but many of them were made past the fleet's fun times. As far as I know Donitz himself knew he was nowhere close to having enough subs to do it in 1940, and by the time he think he does, the Allies already put effective countermeasures

[tawny harness]

I think it was more about hyping through the song than really biased. You should have heard the Winged Hussar or Seven Pillar of Wisdom.

Their WW1 album are pretty sick though

[spiral cedar]

The WWI u-boats actually stood a chance of bringing Britain's merchant fleet to its knees, as Jellicoe himself confided in 1917. The switch to the convoy system later that year drastically cut losses, but U-boats were never truly "defeated" in WWI the way they were in 1943

[manic latch]

Yeah subs are stronger in ww1

Not K class

[junior trench]

🔨

[maiden citrus]

sad my images from then are gone, some have a ton of reactions and were probably funny

[manic latch]

Howard please no dinosaurs

[frigid karma]

They didn’t have enough hms dreadnought to ram them all

[remote monolith]

submarines were a pretty recent development in WWI, and much like tanks and other new developments nobody were quite sure how to to deal with them initially, though unlike many land developments anti-sub countermeasures were fairly slower to come

[spiral cedar]

As an example of the importance of the convoy system, in WWII, a majority of ships lost were lost out of convoy, despite the vast majority of Atlantic voyages being in convoy

[tawny harness]

Back when using ships with big guns are considered meta.
Now everyone just throw planes out like freaking shuriken.

[frigid karma]

Eh

Missiles shat on BBs

Not the planes

[tawny harness]

I don't know, it seems CV are still king of the navy

[frigid karma]

If missiles weren’t invented BBs could’ve stuck around a method to bring a lot of boom to one place

Missiles kind of took that

CVs stole the flagship role mid war

[manic latch]

CVs never roam around alone tho. They also need missile defense shield

[frigid karma]

But BBs still had a job latewar and postwar

[maiden citrus]

bbs were king of the night even late war

[frigid karma]

Missiles also like

Don’t really care about armor all that much

[tawny harness]

Oh yeah, the Iowa-class was actived back during US invasion on the Middle East

[junior trench]

uh

[frigid karma]

A single hit will fuck all your systems

[junior trench]

Qwerty

[remote monolith]

also there are some overrepresentations on convoys that did fail, eg PQ-17

[junior trench]

you are aware that the RN attempted a design study against the kind of guided AP bombs emerging, right?

and they basically concluded

"lol no"

[tawny harness]

Does ships even have considerable level of armor? Didn't All or nothing method became the main stay for all ships since WW2?

[frigid karma]

I was talking from a mission kill perspective

[manic latch]

Didn't early anti ship missiles had more penetration than modern ones?

[remote monolith]

so to some people it may look like the system isn't effective, even when the reason it fails was that because it splitted over faulty intel

[junior trench]

lolno

[frigid karma]

A missile can pretty easily damage all your electronics

[junior trench]

so can a bomb

[manic latch]

How. Armor was still valued I think

[junior trench]

and planes can fly a lot farther than shells

[frigid karma]

Missiles still had more to do with the death of BBs than planes

[junior trench]

not really, no

[maiden citrus]

all or nothing was adopted by navies outside the us immediately post ww1, though modern ships have little protective armor in the same way those did

[frigid karma]

I would debate this but I should also sleep

So gn

[maiden citrus]

it was more the combination of planes carrying missiles imo

planes themselves got weaponry that's not very... applicable to anti air

as it was simply too far away to be realistic

[manic latch]

Nah I'm with Qwerty on this one
Khrushchev also believed missiles were the end of artillery and battleships

[tawny harness]

In Azur Lane, why are Kaga and Akagi sister? Aren't they different class of ship?

[spiral cedar]

Nowadays ships are not heavily armored, no. But splinter protection (e.g. Kevlar) over certain vitals like magazines is still common, and flight decks that can handle jet aircraft have to be thick enough that they already provide a bit of HE bomb resistance. But the old concept of armor as a way to reject projectiles and prevent damage is mostly dead due to the increased lethality and accuracy of modern weapons, and now active defenses (hard and soft kill) are the primary defense, with "armor" just being used to reduce the odds of the worst damage

[manic latch]

Kaga used parts of cancelled Amagi

Smh like that

[tawny harness]

So it's less about survived a hit but more about prevent from getting hit in the first place? Gotcha

[maiden citrus]

artillery after a certain distance is simply too small an angle to hit a target reliably, or too far away to hit in any real time, in pinches

bofors were already quite good at killing planes and things like the 3''/50 rf make bofors look terrible, and could hit planes at much further range

then the planes gained range, they didn't have to come in to bomb or torpedo, they simply had missiles themselves for that scenario, and then it's aa vs a missile swarm from planes that can circle you outside standoff range

so you need missiles yourself, but then what type of ship is best for that

[spiral cedar]

Surviving hits still matters, but often more in "soft" factors like improved firefighting systems rather than armor specifically. Not getting hit is of greater importance in relative terms, though, yes

[tawny harness]

so they become siblings because Kaga have parts of Amagi on her body?

This is some Space Marine shit here

[manic latch]

Manjuu's wish

[junior trench]

because early AShMs aren't running around with options for 5-7x charge diameter warheads which open a hole to deliver a totally intact warhead through?

[manic latch]

[remote monolith]

actually here's a little thing I've been pondering, so realistically speaking, what would be the procedure to engage something as big as a kaiju in modern ground combat? Let's leave aside the matter if the attacks damages it or not, just want to know how it would be done according to current practices

[somber knoll]

Modern warfare in a nutshell

[frigid karma]

Shoot it with increasingly larger projectiles until it dies

[manic latch]

I don't think there is any "meat" that stop AP weapons

[tawny harness]

I guess a analog for this is me having a heart surgery and the family of the person who sacrificed his heart to me suddenly become my family too

[frigid karma]

I don’t think soldiers like in the movies will continue to pump 5.56 at the walking mountain if it doesn’t do anything in the first ten seconds

[tawny harness]

[maiden citrus]

for starters, practically anything thrown at it will be from a range it can neither see or comprehend in the case of missiles or artillery

[frigid karma]

And also probably a lot more jeeps with bazookas

[maiden citrus]

none of the japanese movie 'the helicopter flies up to its face to shoot it' nonsense

[manic latch]

Anti-Bunker bombs with planes should do the trick?

[junior trench]

like, 15" diameter BROACH warhead is looking at 1000-2000mm RHAe penetration at the lowest end of possibility

[frigid karma]

You probably just fire a tomahawk at it

If that doesn’t work drop a nuke before it gets to a city

[maiden citrus]

they even use those to kill godzilla in one movie iirc

[manic latch]

Calm down McArthur

[remote monolith]

they did it in Shin

[tawny harness]

Mass using jeeps with Bazookas in war is basically UNSC tactics from Halo

[remote monolith]

and it did damage Godzilla

[frigid karma]

“Damage”

Yeah like

[tawny harness]

What Godzilla re we talking about here?

[remote monolith]

problem is Godzilla responded by point defense lasers with ranges of several dozen kilometers

[frigid karma]

For an actual kaiju just damaging it once would probably cripple it

Like

[maiden citrus]

but yeah that's the first thing you'd notice is it'd probably be mostly artillery, and missile spamming platforms for a target that large, there's no need to get close to it

[frigid karma]

Most animals

[tawny harness]

The lizard American one or the one that said 'ouch that hurt' to a 50 megaton bomb?

[manic latch]

Godzilla's plot skin armor

[remote monolith]

figures that'll be the case, but its fun to to ask it anyway

[tawny harness]

Or the one that 300 meters tall and shoot down a giant ass meteore with laser breath?

[remote monolith]

oops sorry, was supposed to respond to Maka

[tawny harness]

[somber knoll]

Historically speaking Akagi is part of the Amagi class Battlecruisers.

the two were meant for carrier conversions due to WNT, but Amagi was damaged by 1923 Kanto earthquake beyond repair, so Kaga from the "adjacent" Kaga/Tosa-class BB was chosen as a replacement.

[spiral cedar]

They're often referred to as "half-sisters" especially since the Amagi and Kaga class designs were somewhat related

[tawny harness]

I see, so their definition of 'sister' is more on the role rather than the structure, like adopted vs blood sisters

[maiden citrus]

like I doubt there would be any people on foot, or even tanks, they'd probably try a few potshots with something like an a-10 in visual range before confirming it needs more firepower

[manic latch]

Adopted yes

[remote monolith]

which is why most kaijus were given physics breaking regen rate; one version of big G was being explained as all the missiles and bullets does damaged him, they just grew back all the damages in nanoseconds

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/explosion-happy-gif-14842488

[junior trench]

I dunno. ~120mm AMP/MPHE and other penetrating HE rounds vs flesh would be pretty amusing.

[somber knoll]

sorta. also they were experimented a lot during the interwar period.

[tawny harness]

A-10 is basically the prime example of America having way too much money for its military. That thing should have been phased out 40 years ago but the only reason it doesn't because any enemies US fought against was basically goat herders with AK and nothing more

[manic latch]

British: Oi use HEAT

[tawny harness]

That is why AC-130 work in the first place too

[junior trench]

why would the British use HEAT

[maiden citrus]

realistically probably even a few a-10s would absolutely rend an animal of even that size, but it's an example opener before moving on

[manic latch]

Fuck they used HESH

Fuuuck

[maiden citrus]

it's airborn and can retreat from the super plodding building monster

[spiral cedar]

🅱️ESH

[remote monolith]

tbf realistically they would just

collapse

from physics

the moment they set foot onto land

[maiden citrus]

I mean even if they somehow had the biology to do it

people forget that jurassic park could've been avoided with a single bmg

[junior trench]

something something snk titant biology

[spiral cedar]

Godzilla tips over and dies from falling over, and the town feasts on its meat for months

[tawny harness]

I would still said that it depends on what Gojira are we talking about here. The 50s to 60s Godzilla could be put down but anything from that on is a little difficult to determine

[junior trench]

would a kaiju even have the metabolism to be able to move without the support of buoyancy in water

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/godzilla-carrier-kong-gif-21762490

Poor Nimitz

[tawny harness]

Heck, Earth Godzilla even have a bio-shield that protect it from projectile and it can released supersonic soundwave that strong enough to flatten trees make of steel

[spiral cedar]

Remember, bipedalism is restricted to a few meters in height because beyond that you die if you trip and fall

[remote monolith]

nuclear radiation solves everything

[tawny harness]

Oh yeah, the same Godzilla who punch a hole onto the middle in Earth to fight giant MONKE

[maiden citrus]

the problem with monsters anymore is we are too strong for monsters that even remotely make sense

[manic latch]

Can Nimitz's deck even handle Godzilla tho lol. Should he just collapse to bottom again

[junior trench]

that would require such a short half life from the relevant isotopes that the creature wouldn't live long enough to grow to such a size

[remote monolith]

ergo nuclear radiation explains how something smaller than modern buildings can level the entire Himalayan range with 1 shot

[junior trench]

https://tenor.com/view/that-not-how-it-works-thats-not-how-any-of-this-works-gif-15098334

[tawny harness]

Yeah, I noticed. Japan seems to have the tendency to create individual carriers or class of carriers that only have 2 or 3 ships at most compared to America who have like 24 Essex-class ships alone

[manic latch]

Remember when dragons were the most strongest of Middle age

[maiden citrus]

9mm fodder

.22 bait

[remote monolith]

which is why kaijus these days grow more eldritch in nature

[tawny harness]

Not a suprise there, if you watch the movie, in later part, Kong can jump on top of buildings without collapsing it so the physics is kinda wonky there

[remote monolith]

heck, Godzilla turned from just a normal mutated lizard to either a super organism or a billion years old meteor tanking god

also apparently the nuke they used in KOTM was 1 gigaton in strength

[manic latch]

Aliens are our new enemy since their super tech makes them more scary foe than big monsters

[maiden citrus]

yeah, of course I just wish it was more realistic, but it's hard to have a hero monster instead of like a bunch of super monsters and have it be combat realistic

[manic latch]

Pacific Rim

[maiden citrus]

even pacific rim is very unrealistic

[manic latch]

[maiden citrus]

none of the monsters there are worth more than one or two missiles

[tawny harness]

But robot vs Kaiju is pretty sick though so I give it a pass

[maiden citrus]

yeah it's an entertainment movie

same as most monster stuff

[remote monolith]

admittedly the allure of giant monsters are ALWAYS that they don't make sense and we just watch them to see military pew pews

[cinder escarp]

If you want realism in your entertainment just go watch yukikaze

[maiden citrus]

pacific rim is very much what the transformers movies wish they were

[spiral cedar]

Kinda misleading because those are wartime production, and as Normal Friedman says, the ironclad law of mobilization is that you produce the design you have. US carrier classes prewar were in ones and twos (even Hornet was a one-off extra order to bridge the gap until Essex); had the war not started you might only see a handful of Essexes before a new class was designed and built. Hence why instead of a bunch of medium size DD class batches, you get 175 Fletchers, and why you got so many Clevelands rather than many smaller classes with minor upgrades

[remote monolith]

Normal Friedman?

[spiral cedar]

Yeah, also known as Orthogonal Libertymale

[tawny harness]

Does anyone know why Sovetskaya Belorussiya is not on the PR ship list? It seems she got scrapped before her hull even completed.

[remote monolith]

[manic latch]

Because she doesn't have WG modification

WG designs or design modifications becomes PR

While laid down or planned ships, likes Brunhild, Belo, Heinrich etc

Are offical designs of their nations without WG touching them

So normal construction

[maiden citrus]

I'm personally of a huge fan of the other direction of monster movies, the hfy kind where the enemy just gets roflstomped

[spiral cedar]

The Japanese themselves planned for 16 Unryū class carriers, though in reality they never had the industry to achieve half that

[remote monolith]

but then we won't be the underdogs

people loves underdogs

[maiden citrus]

power trips are just as fun

[tawny harness]

You guys could try Shin Ultraman, quite a fresh take on Kaiju style movie

[remote monolith]

and even more, people loves military hardwares being annihilated

[manic latch]

Why Japan attacked without finishing important stuff? Like waiting for 5 Yamato to be finished instead going at early

[maiden citrus]

too many underdog stories is boring and depressing, and you get tired of the plot armor

[remote monolith]

ah yeah, you'll love Shin Ultraman then Maka

[spiral cedar]

6 months of oil

[remote monolith]

they actually killed kaijus with massed tank shots

not even missiles

[maiden citrus]

I have been recommended it before, but know little of it

[remote monolith]

just around 20 tanks firing at it for half an hour

and its dead

[manic latch]

So if they had oil, they would wait like 5 year more?

[tawny harness]

Just have the chance to watch a week ago. Japan military kinda doing pretty well until Mefilas decided to ramp up his Kaiju power and forced Lipiah to intervene.

[maiden citrus]

nah that's where I boo in the theater

[tawny harness]

And modern military being helpless against Ultraman and Mefilas actually make more sense, in some way

[manic latch]

Avatar movie

[spiral cedar]

Maybe, or not go to war with the US at all. But it's tricky, since the US also was the main supplier of steel to Japan, and ships do need steel

[maiden citrus]

yeah, fricken BOOOOO

nonsense

[tawny harness]

Is that why they need to get China?

[spiral cedar]

No

That's why they need the Dutch East Indies

[manic latch]

Fleet will be useless after 6 months since no oil

[spiral cedar]

China started in 1931 and picked up in 1937

1940 France goes down, and shortly thereafter Japan occupies French Indochina

[tawny harness]

Interesting, I though Japan attack European colonies in SEA are mostly to buy more time for new ships to be construct or something like that

[spiral cedar]

That causes the US to impose the asset freeze and oil embargo, which starts the ticking clock

[manic latch]

Paradox

[spiral cedar]

The navy has 6 months of oil, the army maybe 1-2 years of oil

[tawny harness]

So why they attack China in the first place? I doubt it is for 'living space' like the German on USSR.

[remote monolith]

it is about that, funnily enough

[tawny harness]

[manic latch]

Aint also Resources ?

[tawny harness]

Well, they haven't go on full exterminating scale on Korea yet so I don't think they are fully committed on that idea, maybe not yet.

[spiral cedar]

The 1931 Manchurian invasion was actually started by Japanese mid-level officers, not the leaders at the top. They staged a false flag railroad bombing (with a pathetically small amount of damage to the tracks) and used that to launch an invasion, and achieved such success that the Japanese public or military would have assassinated any Prime Minister who tried to pull out and end the war

[maiden citrus]

kremlin bringing up repressed memories of me renting that like 15 years ago and as soon as it gets to the combat scenes where they're fighting like space age era weapons and aircraft etc with their bare hands and winning with the power of friendship I was like mannn this is such bs

[spiral cedar]

And I do mean assassinated—Japan by the 30s was government by assassination

[remote monolith]

the right wing elements of Japan had been propagandizing China as the wild west of Japan in the 30s, they saw how the US gradually pushed more and more west to Indian lands and saw parallels for Japan to do it in China, and there were initial plans to colonize Chinese lands with Japanese colonists. Which didn't pan out because a large chunks of the places they did own were dirt poor grasslands

[spiral cedar]

Here's my recommended videos about the Japanese decision to go to war

The first link in particular is probably the one you want

[tawny harness]

Did Japan leaderships even account for the chance that they would bog down halfway through? The coast is easy games but when we start to get inland, the difficult go from 1 to 100 real fast there.

[spiral cedar]

They didn't think there would be a full scale industrial war in China

The 1937 Battle of Shanghai escalated into a full scale war instead of police actions and punitive raids like they expected, since they were facing a United (ish) China for the first time

[spring briar]

What goin on

[tawny harness]

It became full scale war the moment Japan start to treat the Chinese the same way they treated a pig. I'm suprised no one in the war cabinets have realized that yet.

[spiral cedar]

They had kinda gotten away with a "colonial war" mentality in mainland Asia for a long while

[tawny harness]

true

BTW, is it just me here because I feel like several ships in AL are not even related to history but rather some kind of bizarre crossover with World of Warship?

[maiden citrus]

[spiral cedar]

Not just you

[maiden citrus]

it is a crossover

the pr system is entirely a crossover

[tawny harness]

I knew it

[spiral cedar]

There is a pinned post by Silver that is a description of which ships are fake

Here

[maiden citrus]

(wows has azur lane skins and commaners in return)

[tawny harness]

Although some of PR ships may have some historical relation, like Saint Louis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Louis-class_cruiser

[spiral cedar]

Check Silver's doc

[tawny harness]

cool

[spiral cedar]

It goes over how historical and how paper each one is

[tawny harness]

will do

[remote monolith]

by 1940 the entire war cabinet were in sunk cost mode, as their own propaganda which generated popular war support more or less killed any notion of pulling out from the war without massive public face loss, eg operational consideration(we NEED to win the China War) outweighing strategical consideration (We actually don't need to get into war in the first place)

[maiden citrus]

anchorage is also a monster

[tawny harness]

the city?

[maiden citrus]

the ship

[tawny harness]

oh

[remote monolith]

would be funnier if Anchorage is really a living abomination ngl

[maiden citrus]

anchorage has extremely heavy armament and ridiculous armor protection for the ship type

[spiral cedar]

Anchorage was pretty pleasant when I visited

[maiden citrus]

in wows terms anchorage would be easily one of the stronger tier 10s

the fact she's not is hilarious tweaking and fudgy game mechanics

[wild wind]

but anchorage still classic using chicago piano than quad bofor

[maiden citrus]

wows makes up what damage aa guns do anyway (and if actually built she'd be refit regardless)

[manic latch]

@spring briar
Question

Can we find even better materials to use for armor in space. Or does the solar system knowledge already gave us idea on all materials in space?

[remote monolith]

deflector shields

[manic latch]

Huh

[remote monolith]

I know this guy named Worf that has access to some real good deflector shields

[tawny harness]

It would be quite interesting if we have a crossover with Halo or WH40K

Imagine those Kansen would look like

[maiden citrus]

love me some halo

[remote monolith]

also speaking of Alaska

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20221130-the-polar-dinosaurs-revealing-ancient-secrets

boom

polar dinosaurs my beloved

[tawny harness]

It's so weird that their ship design is putting the MAC gun at the front, basically making the ship a flying cannon

[maiden citrus]

but yeah for reference anchorage has

around 8 inch belt, 3 inch deck, 9 inch turret faces, even something like zao would get crumpled

[maiden citrus]

the entire ship has the gun run through it, ala barbette

for the largest gun possible to destroy covenant shields and ships

[tawny harness]

Yeah, but it usually for ground-based MAC gun, most MAC gun for ships are struggle to fight against the Covenent till the Infinity

[maiden citrus]

they probably didn't anticipate getting so outclassed in space

the unsc obviously has a huge investment in troopers and the logic would be to support them with huge mac rounds on enemy installations in time of war, while fighting above

just unfortunately they had trouble not getting shot up and destroyed or forced to retreat

[wild wind]

I remember eps 3 on planet dinosaur showed arctic life in cretaceous period

[maiden citrus]

and it was based

[spring briar]

Iridium will be interesting

[tawny harness]

The entire war basically boil down to holding long enough for the Prophet of Truth to have some genious idea in betraying the Elite in the middle of a freaking war

The ground force did better though becasue Covenant don't considered war as numbers but as art.

[maiden citrus]

unsc had a ton of investment in ground forces, their weak link was certainly their spacefighting capability

they could definetly swing with the covenant on the ground

[remote monolith]

and it was glorious

[maiden citrus]

just when the covenant will... glass your planet, and your ships lose to theirs

yeah

the weakness in unsc doctrine got exploited all the way to earth

[remote monolith]

lately we're seeing increasing evidence of dinosaurs being able to survive in polar conditions with the necessary adaptions to do so

[tawny harness]

The SPARTAN are basically the main way to deal with Covenant in space till admiral Cole think of something new. But then the UNSC make a mistake and put too many SPARTAN together in one operation that one time and this end up with them being butchered to hell and back

Still, Halo and 40k ships design are very interesting because it bring back projectile weapons rather than utilize missiles almost purely like 21st century ships

[spiral cedar]

Well, it helps there is no horizon in space

[maiden citrus]

projectile weapons do have a place I feel, I very much like the clash and doctrines that use certain weapon types

[remote monolith]

hell, we've found antarctic dinosaurs, some of whom were fairly large

[spring briar]

High velocity kinetic weapons definitely will have a place

[maiden citrus]

spartan armor was extremely resistant to energy weapons, it's why even elites are no match for them

[spring briar]

Punching holes in the pressurised hulls

[wild wind]

the Elvis lizard

[remote monolith]

reject projectiles and missiles, embrace phaser banks

[tawny harness]

I mean the MJOLNIR Mark V to Mark VII basically incorperated Covenant personal energy shield after all

[maiden citrus]

yeah, they went and stole the tech and incorporated it for an even further boost

[spring briar]

No

[maiden citrus]

it's why if I had to really choose between a ground force I'd pick unsc

[remote monolith]

dirty Romulan smh

[spring briar]

[remote monolith]

and the (sadly kinda dubious) Antarctosaurus

[maiden citrus]

in some verses I do, in others I stay with projectiles

stellaris I had a hard time debating over if my other oc's race in space tech age would stick with battleship projectiles, or be on phasers

as they are playing with energy weapons already in their 1920s ish equivalent

[tawny harness]

Phaser bank, isn't that Star Trek and Star Wars stuff?

[remote monolith]

Trek stuff yea

Federation warship my beloved

[tawny harness]

I'm personally prefer the 40k and Halo projectile style more

[maiden citrus]

https://tenor.com/view/star-trek-voyager-borg-armor-shields-red-alert-gif-20818753

[tawny harness]

combination between super heavy and ultra fast projectile guns with laser batteries

[spring briar]

Me using 1910’s era 12” soviet sap in space

[remote monolith]

https://tenor.com/view/startrek-gif-8913211

[maiden citrus]

ds9 not being remastered in hd yet is tragic

[spring briar]

1 nuke in the middle of this

[remote monolith]

what being developed using technologies that doesn't leaves behind negatives does to a mf

[maiden citrus]

a nuke would barely shake navigation shields

[remote monolith]

^

[spiral cedar]

Not the shockwave

[remote monolith]

proper Trek shields shrug off shots that melt continents

[spiral cedar]

The X-rays

[tawny harness]

Would Azur Lane incorperated more on ships from WW1 and before that or their 'limit with WW2 ships' policy still being the main priority here?

[remote monolith]

they're defo gravitating towards WW1 more

[spring briar]

Wouldnt work bc wooooo sci fi shields wooo

[maiden citrus]

yeah cosmic ray filtering is standard even on the spaced armor hull platings

[spring briar]

How tf does communication work if almost all light spectrums are blocked by the shield

Space pigeon?

[tawny harness]

I noticed that, I think they mentioned the High Sea Fleet being involved after Operation Siren storyline

[spring briar]

[maiden citrus]

use weird bands for it that are modulated in ways you know

[spring briar]

Yes

Ofc

It’s science fiction after all

[remote monolith]

in fairness when you have one species being able to survive the full force of the big bang, punt a ship halfway across the galaxy, and manipulate the fabric of reality as they please, anti-nuke shield is the least of your problem

[maiden citrus]

star trek is an extremely weird hill to die on for 'tech that doesn't make sense' regardless

[spring briar]

Eh

Not really

If you’re willing to fight that battle atleast

Since star trek atleast does a good job in basing things on science

Or pseudo science

[remote monolith]

the only science in trek is the science of Ferengi economics and how it is better for our society

[maiden citrus]

that's why I said it's a really weird hill

[spring briar]

🌭🌭

[maiden citrus]

[manic latch]

Maka your emote looks like Ares here

[maiden citrus]

I gotta nibble the pre dread

[spring briar]

Mwaka

[maiden citrus]

[remote monolith]

actually genius

we should implement this immediately

[spring briar]

[somber knoll]

I tend to wonder if these are just doodle or from an actual historical manual.

cause if they are, then Germans clearly has a particular sense of humor.

[remote monolith]

someone doodled these, regrettably

[somber knoll]

rip

[remote monolith]

not actual designs, which I would have liked

[somber knoll]

I mean

I studied Liechtenauer, Ringeck, and Talhoffer (with a bit of Fiore) and for the life of me, I find this rather... genius

[manic latch]

@delicate beacon

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

23

Fack you Martin

[delicate beacon]

Do you realise how often I have found that imagine due to the lack of online presence of anything related to staag?

[manic latch]

Know the feel

🤝

[delicate beacon]

Why are Sweden and Sitzerland in here

[spring briar]

This wasn’t wrong tho

[delicate beacon]

Can confirm, Britain was evul

[ivory ridge]

was?

[maiden citrus]

leurope

[spring briar]

L’Europe

L’Amérique

[maiden citrus]

L'hotdog

[manic latch]

Bro whoever designed this is fucking lit

It's like Soviet YF-23

which has already flown

[dim brook]

That would be If a 3rd gen and a 5th gen fighter jet had a son

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1599077812815933441

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD 1945, FADM Ernest King issued his final report on Navy operations during WWII. He credited victory in the Pacific to overwhelming seapower and America's industrial might. He used this graph to illustrate the annihilation of Japan's Navy as the US Navy grew from 1941 to 1945.

Twitter · Dec 3, 2022, 4:27 PM

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1599105601342054400

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

During WWII, Admiral Nimitz awarded the Navy Cross to a burly 6-foot Marine who had bravely captured several machine guns and destroyed a few tanks. The Marine fainted as Nimitz grabbed his shirt to pin the medal because meeting a 4-star admiral terrified him. #SeaStorySaturday

Twitter · Dec 3, 2022, 6:17 PM

[frigid karma]

i feel like top left should also apply to britiain in some ways

[spiral cedar]

The death chonks

[maiden citrus]

we stan death chonks

[tribal mortar]

Time to surpass Metal Gear.

[frigid karma]

outh dakota-c

[solid mango]

Ah yes

The outh dakota-chonk

[sullen canyon]

What is the Outh Dakota-C anyways?

[tribal mortar]

just like in Zanzibar

[haughty trench]

vampire

[eternal veldt]

[junior trench]

By the time STAAG shows up, the quad Bofors is radar directed as well

It just uses an off mount director

So the person aiming the system and the radar itself aren't being buffeted and shaken by the recoil and muzzle blast

Which was the primary failing of the STAAG and Hazemeyer mounts

And remains the most common failing of gun system with on-mount radars

[delicate beacon]

Hazemeijer started with an off mount directer but on-mount FC became more important for small ships

This predated Radar and even when radar was a thing there was a push for self-contained mounts in case of power loss

[junior trench]

On mount direction really isn't worth the trouble

[silent spruce]

Darling harbour

[desert agate]

Need to head over East again and climb aboard her

Lost all my photos from last time I was in Sydney

At least I have HMAS Ovens to entertain me

[eternal veldt]

Vampy was already like a maze to me

Hard to imagine a BB's complexity

[frigid karma]

have you visited any CVs before?

[eternal veldt]

Buddy, Vampire, Oberon and Diamantina are the only botes I got on

Endeavour and James Craig as well, I guess

[frigid karma]

CVs are massive

like

they fully deserve the title "floating city"

[strong plank]

if you ever find yourself stateside, the bigger ships are definitely worth checking out

[frigid karma]

it took me the better half of an hour just to explore the hangar of hornet

and then there were so many layers jfc

there's also that warship smell which you find on every warship you go to

[strong plank]

yup

[frigid karma]

found it on intrepid, hornet, midway

[strong plank]

like someone just re-finished the floors

[frigid karma]

no kind of like

rust

and something else i can't put my finger on

i bet if i went on massa i would've got it

[eternal veldt]

Not travelling anytime for the forseeable future

[frigid karma]

i was actually undecided on who to oath, then i was driving by massa and decided "fuck it lmao"

[eternal veldt]

Smh, reach my level of cringe first

[strong plank]

nice paint job

[frigid karma]

Going for the fake model to match the fake ship are you

Get dabbed on

(Yes I know it’s not the same)

[lavish fable]

absolute chad

[eternal veldt]

I have in mind to scrap the whole model and do it again, actually

[frigid karma]

Say

How accurate is the wows amagi

[eternal veldt]

But work burnout is too much

A few problems

[lavish fable]

as in to design or shell acc?

[frigid karma]

Model wise

Wows amagi gun accuracy is fine

[strong plank]

oh yeah that reminds me

a recent patch note said they changed some details on renown's model.

did they un-fuck her?

[lavish fable]

model wise, look close or correct to model rendered in wows

[strong plank]

recent as in like last few months

[eternal veldt]

1. Nagato bridge, exact replica, unlikely given the continuous improvements over each BB of the IJN
2. Retention of all 152mm casemate guns, despite more Type 89 12.7cms added on.

[frigid karma]

If I had to guess

[eternal veldt]

Funnel is a also in the sussy zone, but it's a pass for me because it looks damn good.

[frigid karma]

They first designed the ship with the amagi base model

Then slapped on the 127 aa

[eternal veldt]

Both Renowns are fucked.

Repulse is fucked, too.

Any post-1941 portrayal of Renown would have 4 torpedoes only - the amidship torpedo section was blanked off and welded shut during or before her refit at Rosyth during 1942.

Portholes are inaccurate when cross examined with photos of Renown at Trincomalee (1944) and Devonport (1945).

[eternal veldt]

Likely just referring to the lod models

Ah, and forgot, both Repulse and Renown's main turrets are wrong.

Right now, they're using the "edge faced" turrets used on the battleships, whereas they should have a smooth curvature front face.

Likely due to asset reuse, so I'll let it slip.

Also noteworthy that Vanguard's turrets are smoothfaced as they were stolen from Courageous and Glorious, and improved upon.

And before someone posts War Thunder's Renown, theirs too is wrong, with shitty "fridge doors" on torpedo tubes, which only existed on Hood and Repulse.

[lavish fable]

random question... so vanguard was supposed to be outfitted with triple 406s iirc.. but ended up getting outfitted with 381s due to the time it took to get her 406mm turrets would said 406mm turrets be similar to those of Nelson and Rodney?

[alpine onyx]

I hope not

[strong plank]

no, the Lions would have had different 16-inchers than Nelson and Rodney

iirc that's why they would've taken so long

[lavish fable]

ah

[eternal veldt]

Vanguard was never slated for 406s

[strong plank]

silver can explain better than I can

[eternal veldt]

Vanguard was an "oh shit, we need a BB fast" and was derived from Lion

The Lion's 16" guns are of an entirely new construction, and would resemble the KGV's flat faced turrets more

Trials were underway as of 1942 before the project was canned

[strong plank]

yeah basically the admiralty figured that they couldn't finish the Lions in time, but what they could do is modify a Lion design and give it guns that they already had in storage

and then as the war went on they slowed her construction to incorporate newer lessons

[lavish fable]

ah okay..

[eternal veldt]

This is Vanguard, as designed

[alpine onyx]

As well as eventually coming to the realization that their opponents are losing their BBs faster than they can build them, so it wasn't that urgent to get a new one

[eternal veldt]

The lines scream Lion in all aspects until the funnel tests in 1944

(which a certain youtube historian magically puts on a refitted Hood, sure buddy)

[eternal veldt]

Not only that, but British shipyards are basically overworked to death

They have to keep pumping out escorts, the WEP destroyers, etc.

[lavish fable]

interesting... and the Lions would've been three turreted no? or am I just taking the WOWs model of the Lion as the "fact" when it could be turbo inaccurate

[eternal veldt]

Which meant that the R class, Barham, and Malaya would never receive their due refits and are second rate by nature

[eternal veldt]

As of the finalized design in 1938, yes.

But by 1945, they are looking at two turret variants, including ones with autoloading variant that can trim reload down to around 20 seconds.

WG Lion's main issue is the lack of a rear director (which would be mounted on Turret 3), and a fucking Hazemeyer AA mount on Turret B

Which is basically "please kill me" for the Hazemeyer

[frigid karma]

With how effect wows aa is, there probably isn’t even a gunner for that haze

[lavish fable]

ontop of turret 2? that exposed?

[eternal veldt]

No, kill as in blast interference and the likes

[strong plank]

i assume the shock of the main guns firing would be hell on the mount

yea

[lavish fable]

ah

[eternal veldt]

Cleve described the Hazemeyer a few hours ago, so I'm not going to discuss it in detail

[lavish fable]

minor earth quake wdym

[eternal veldt]

Short is, powered mounts dont go on turrets

[lavish fable]

sounds about right

[eternal veldt]

It was fine for the US quad bofors and the oerlikon galleries)

[junior trench]

US mounts didn't have super fiddly bits on them

[lavish fable]

hooman man power to move the guns

[eternal veldt]

If I recall, the US never mounted the Mark 51 directors directly on the turrets either

[junior trench]

the super fiddly bits called gun directors serving automatic weapons on a USN vessel are positioned as far away from blast/shock/vibration as best as possible

which is sharply in contrast to whatever the fuck the RN got up to

and was an issue entirely foreign to the IJN

[alpine onyx]

[eternal veldt]

Oh, I was wrong

Mark 51 director on Turret B, never mind

[junior trench]

the IJN had gun directors for their heavy AA, yes

arguably better ones than the RN ever had

for automatic weapons on the other hand...

[alpine onyx]

I am more thinking about the Germans never noting issues with their automatic fire control equipment for the automatic AA, even tho they were all too happy to throw them onto the turrets as well

[eternal veldt]

Im guessing it had to do with how finnicky the Hazemeyer is compared to other constructions

[junior trench]

well yeah

that's what happens when you fix the radar directly to the mount

[eternal veldt]

Just like the Le Prieur sights on the 25mm guns of Yamato

"Remove them before the main guns go off, or they die"

[delicate beacon]

Never read about Hazemeijer having trouble in Dutch service. They had more trouble with pom poms

[eternal veldt]

And they're expensive

[delicate beacon]

The Hasslemere story may be overembellished base on poor maintenance from some crews

[eternal veldt]

I'm thinking more of high caliber naval weapons' interference

Thus why the RN never mounted them on the turrets and chose pom poms instead

[delicate beacon]

It's also weird how the British refused Dutch fixes of the early design.

[eternal veldt]

The brits are quite... Arrogant, shall we say

[delicate beacon]

Quite so yeah

[eternal veldt]

"our guns are 14", but we have 10 of them, and the long service traditions of the men of the Royal Navy shall ensure superior gunnery to the enemy"

Something to that extent to justify the KGVs

Would be funny if they jam- oh fuck.

[alpine onyx]

fire control was similar between different guns, tho best to see here, an on mount computer that you feed the data, and then it transmits it to the holosights for the gunners. Same system was on the 20mm quads, which were mounted on various turrets, and a similar one being probably on the 40mm singles which also made their way onto turret roofs

[valid trout]

iirc they did, didnt they...

[junior trench]

tfw your fixed guns are operating at ~70% availability vs an average of ~90% in all other navies

[eternal veldt]

They did, yes

Because of copious amounts of flash protection

Can't have Jutland 2 boogaloo

[junior trench]

Hazemeyer also has this little problem where powered automatic control is limited to 10 degrees per second

which is

less than ideal

[eternal veldt]

Also, toilet TDS on KGV never ceases to be not funny

What's that, you ate a torpedo?

[junior trench]

"the toilet shits back when torpedoed"

[eternal veldt]

toilet explodes

[alpine onyx]

Get water spray to clean the butt

Who would win, explosive diarheaa or explosive torpedo?

[eternal veldt]

It really do be a case of the more you know about the RN the more you facepalm at it

[junior trench]

the British were so obsessed with trying to field an on-mount directed twin Bofors they they developed a 20 ton mount with a more advanced director than that used to direct the heavy AA guns

[eternal veldt]

Mmm yas, "AA magazines next to machinery, diejoubu"

[junior trench]

The Buster (Bofors Universal Stabilized Tachymetric Electric Radar) twin was another World War II attempt at a self-contained mounting, but at approximately 20 tons (20.3 mt) this weighed far too much for only a twin arrangement and the project was canceled. Used the Mark VIII gun.

yes

it's extremely incongruous

yes

[delicate beacon]

Still looking for reliable data on it

[junior trench]

that's heavier than an RN 4" twin mount

the USN Mark 4 Quad Bofors is heccin' SPEEN

[eternal veldt]

At least we agree on the pom pom being shit

No tracer, jams frequently

[junior trench]

the ww2 proliferation of the pom pom basically exists because the British couldn't field Bofors fast enough and were also absolutely neurotic and kept lines open for obsolete weapons for no real reason

[alpine onyx]

How many Pom Poms on a KGV again?

48?

No

Must've been more

[junior trench]

"I say chap, we have a new 4" gun to replace the 4" Mk V, should we close down the Mk V line?"
"No, let's keep it open for the whole war and keep making new ones"

[eternal veldt]

They were... Kinda learning in 1945.

Howe was slated to get 14 single bofors at Durham in Sep 1945.

Oops, war ended.

[junior trench]

also

pom-pom did have tracers

the RN just didn't check that they worked in the tropics

which is

[eternal veldt]

Not on the Prince of Wales at least.

[junior trench]

where a lot of their empire was

[eternal veldt]

The tropical question.

Oops, the lone 40mm single bofors at the back is better at scaring the bombers off when the power switch went off

[junior trench]

so you know how the US will test equipment across conditions ranging from say, Southwest desert, to North west rainforest, to Alaskan tundra, to Rocky mountains?

apparently the RN just kind of... neglected to do that kind of thing?

[alpine onyx]

Just ditch fire control, give tracer to the heavy AA and walk the shots to the target

[junior trench]

"this territory belongs to us and we might have to fight for it some day"

"should we test equipment under the conditions there?"

"preposterous, we're the british"

[eternal veldt]

"Just hold the line until reinforcements arrive in Hong Kong, say, around 3 months"

Neglects defence, little manpower, gets overrun in just 3 weeks

Pain

[junior trench]

though I guess it's a tradition

stares at Type 45's problems with...

warm water

like how germany still builds overweight ships with funny weight distribution problems

[eternal veldt]

Do we have a new Rommel ship yet

[alpine onyx]

should build a destroyer and name it Hermes for the sake of it

but no one asked me

[eternal veldt]

So long you dont assign it ZG3 and export it to Greece.

"export"

[alpine onyx]

would never do that

[junior trench]

hm

T22 but with the 10.5cm guns replaced with 3"/50RF twins

[eternal veldt]

It was 5 x 8 + 4 on Turret B, IIRC

Then reinforced with a measly 2 x quad bofors around 1944

[alpine onyx]

Did look at DoY and it was 8x8 + 6x4 for her, plus the two Bofors quads

cope

[junior trench]

"yes, we absolutely should have multiple types of 40mm aboard the same ship"

then again... there's...

3 different non-interchangeable 37mm AA cartridges used by germany simultaneously

and...

4 different non-interchangeable 20mm in the luftwaffe alone

[alpine onyx]

Should see some of the late war improvised AA fits on certain botes

Those were messy

One 40mm Bofors they "borrowed" from the army, four 37mm Bredas, and a mix of Flak38 and Breda 20mm guns, and I think they also had some captured Oerlikons on her (below the third gun)

Just whatever you could find laying around

[desert agate]

Belfast wasn't easy to get around lol

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/BAES_Maritime/status/1599035776032972802

BAE Systems Maritime (@BAES_Maritime)

Welcome to Scotstoun, HMS Glasgow!

Having successfully entered the water last night, HMS Glasgow is now safely at our shipyard in Scotstoun, Glasgow, where we’ll complete her outfit before starting test and commissioning. @RoyalNavy @DefenceHQ

https://t.co/sU7Ll4xBwa

Likes

307

Twitter · Dec 3, 2022, 1:40 PM

[valid trout]

Finally the HMS Glasgow is in the water

[solid mango]

holy shit it finally is

[slender meadow]

Now have to wait 6 years to be fitted out

[valid trout]

And then another year to commission it ;-;

[manic latch]

Strong American ship 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 💪 💪 💪

[ivory ridge]

[unborn wyvern]

Fuso is back baby

[desert agate]

https://twitter.com/scotty_thomo/status/1599316449226797056?s=20&t=_skkfC5tiS_IYUBC9vwPIg

Scott Thompson (@scotty_thomo)

#Australian🇦🇺 soldiers enjoying a swimming carnival 'somewhere in Europe' c.1918
Down time away from the lines to decompress, important to the well-being & fighting man's ability to perform in battle
Source: #ArmyMuseumWA
#MilitaryHistory #FWW #WW1 #AIF #Anzacs #TheGreatWarGroup

Twitter · Dec 4, 2022, 8:15 AM

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l42zG5H7QPw

[tough quail]

i assume it has something to do with the fact there's so many of them i could go dig around in my back yard for a few hours and find six of them

[ivory ridge]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/zb3ixo/album_a_few_more_pictures_from_the_making_of_il/

[unborn wyvern]

I had a brainthought about countries using replacing older military tech

It's like the fire department, the leather coats, open topped apparatus that firefighters rode on the back

They are really cool but theres a reason why they were replaced

[tough quail]

y...yeah?

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/CiroNappi6/status/1599371946793136130
https://twitter.com/CiroNappi6/status/1599371952418086915
https://twitter.com/CiroNappi6/status/1599371958591684608

Ciro Nappi (@CiroNappi6)

Thread.🧵
News about 🇯🇵-🇮🇹-🇬🇧 agreement for jointly develop new advanced jet fighter.
Program should be called GCAP (Global Combat Air Program), and as already asaid is expected next week the formalization of this.
Originally 🇬🇧-🇮🇹 working heavly on Tempest progam from 2018
1/

Likes

538

Twitter · Dec 4, 2022, 11:56 AM

Ciro Nappi (@CiroNappi6)

And from months UK and Italy have working to bringing Japan into this group, for sixth generation fighter.
With the add of Japan in the program will take a global form after the European one.
The principal contractors are: Mitsubishi HI, BAE Systems, and Leonardo SpA.
2/

Likes

105

Twitter · Dec 4, 2022, 11:56 AM

Ciro Nappi (@CiroNappi6)

Complete integration of Tempest and F-X programs is still under study. Companies are currently working on division with each country taking third of the ownership, but negotiations are ongoing. This marks a new global political alliance.
🇸🇪 is is regarded as a potential partner.

Likes

107

Twitter · Dec 4, 2022, 11:56 AM

[stiff sinew]

Am I the only one who gets Avro Vulcan vibes from this one?

[shrewd pecan]

man’s house is built on top of a ancient AK burial ground

[spiral cedar]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorage/lz/cartographic/rg-019/559623/Batch29/RG19_ALPHA_New_Orleans_class_Cruisers_02.jpg

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1599524448289161216

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

Because the waters around Guadalcanal were still heavily contested in 1942, the Navy had difficulty resupplying the embattled Marines. Under the cover of darkness, the sub USS Amberjack was used as a tanker to deliver 9,000 gallons of fuel and hundreds of bombs. #SubSunday

Twitter · Dec 4, 2022, 10:02 PM

[desert agate]

https://twitter.com/Australian_Navy/status/1599644743192936449?s=20&t=uWNkVlM4cD3QCpHzOfYy6g

Royal Australian Navy (@Australian_Navy)

We've got a connection 🤝 🇺🇸 🇦🇺

Recently #HMASStalwart linked up with @USNavy Carrier USS Ronald Reagan to restock fuel and stores in the North Pacific during Indo Pacific Endeavour 2022.

#IPE22 #StrongerTogether #AusNavy

Twitter · Dec 5, 2022, 6:00 AM

[glass trail]

her majesty's ASS talwart

[valid trout]

ASS

[manic latch]

Ass

[tawny harness]

Does anyone know why America can throwing out hundereds of aircraft carrier back in WW2 like free cardboard boxes but now 10 aircraft carriers already considered level 100 mob boss even compared to other rich European countries.

[junior trench]

?

first

count the number of full sized carriers actually involved for each navy in WW2

[tawny harness]

What is 'full sized' here?

Isn't any carrier that can carry more than a dozen aircrafts are basically aircraft carriers?

[junior trench]

no

[tawny harness]

So what is the actual numbers then?

the wiki said the US have slightly over a hundred carrier and they're still pumping out more for the war

[manic latch]

Most of those carriers can't handle modern planes

[delicate beacon]

There's 2 factors one should consider:
A) The level of conflict in the world and military spending
B) The size (i.e. displacement) of the carriers

[spiral cedar]

The so-called “weekly aircraft carriers” in WWII were escort carriers, converted merchantman hulls with a flight deck on top. Too short to handle high-performance fighters, mostly relegated to land bombing, ASW patrols, and convoy escort (which is all they needed to do anyway). The fleet carrier (CV) and even light carrier (CVL) numbers are much smaller

Also, normally you don’t increase the national debt several hundred percent for naval construction in peacetime…

[desert agate]

his majestys im afraid

[remote monolith]

gonna need some time to get used to that still

also the first Charles since some 3 centuries ago, with the first with that name losing his head and the second going into exile before ultimately coming back and be remembered as at best, lazy and indolent

[desert agate]

firstly theres a noted difference between a fleet carrier, an escort carrier and a light carrier
fleet carriers are massive ships, mostly weighing upwards of 20'000t, designed to be fast enough to keep up with fleets and operate a large combined airgroup, consisting of bombers, torpedo planes and fighters, with the smallest fleet carriers having an airgroup somewhere in the range of 60 aircraft typically, generally with a top speed of around 30kn to help them to launch aircraft in even the poorest of wind conditions (exceptions exist), they are costly ships that take years to build and require the combined investment of a insignificant part of a nations economic output to produce and maintain

During WW2 the US Navy operated approximately 30 of these, 24 Essex class, 3 Yorktowns, 2 Lexingtons and Wasp
the IJN operated approximately 11 of these types of various classes
The Royal Navy operated 10 fleet carriers including 4 Illustrious class ships

an escort carrier is the smallest of ships, these typically are little more than a cargo or passenger ship that's had its superstructure ripped off and replaced with a flight deck and some hangar space, ships like these would weigh less than 10'000t and were very slow, around 18kn for the Bogue class owing to their civilian heritage. These ships aren't designed to fight other warships but instead carry a small air wing of anti-submarine aircraft and some fighters, to protect convoys from threats at range, but without the ability to seriously hurt an enemy fleet (that's not to say they couldn't do it but it wasn't typically their role), they are exceptionally cheap ships that can be readily mass produced to fulfil their required role of escorting the countless convoys flowing across the Atlantic

These ships were built in their hundreds by the British and Americans, and were also interestingly operated by the Imperial Japanese Army (thanks inter-service rivalry), they were small cheap and narrow in capability, but good at what they were designed for

light carriers meanwhile fit in the middle of these two extremes, typically in the range of 10'000t, they are significantly faster than escort carriers, but typically slower than their fleet carrier counterparts, allowing them to launch modern aircraft but not necessarily keep up with a fleet, allowing them to fulfil supplementary roles where an entire fleet carrier would be a waste of resources but an escort carrier would be incapable, such as providing air defence to a landing site while the fleet carriers are off chasing down the main enemy task force, or simply supplementing a fleet carriers air-group allowing for additional aircraft to be deployed

The US Navy operated 11 of these ships in WW2
The British built 20 of these ships in WW2, although not all were completed before the end of the war, most famously the Colossus and Majestic classes would sold off and become the backbone of many navies world-wide
Japan would build 7 of these ships, however many of them were so lightly built their actual combat utility was often limited

Modern American super-carriers are the evolution of the fleet carrier concept, they are designed to be the centrepiece of their task forces, able to deploy an air wing larger than the entire air forces of most countries, they are such a gargantuan investment that very few countries are capable of or willing to make such an investment, and those who are only do so because they have global power projection requirements

[spiral cedar]

Also note that the CVE role is somewhat displaced nowadays since helicopters have proliferated and overtaken most of the ASW role

[junior trench]

amusingly some CVEs had exceptionally long service lives... as helicopter carriers

[desert agate]

💀 just realised i forgor midway class

tbf so did a lot of CVLs

the Spanish had an Independence in service in the 80s flying Harriers and Sea Kings

[junior trench]

worth noting that RN CVLs are also a bit special in regards to their build standards

as the state of British military yards meant letting the civilian yards build them, and there wasn't time to bring them up to military spec

well, either of the two military specs

the normal and the discount

why was accepting parts below standard at reduced cost to the British government even a thing anyway

[desert agate]

yeah HMAS Sydney had to be withdrawn from service early and modified as a troop transport as her superstructure wasnt capable of withstanding the force of aircraft landings without a very expensive rebuild due to degradation over time, and it was determined to be simply excessive
HMAS Melbourne meanwhile was purchased well before completion and RAN had to spend the better part of a decade not only modifying her design with an angled flight deck and other modern ammenities but also shoring up the superstructure and overall strengthening it to allow the ship to stay in service for longer

some of the 1942s were better than others build quality wise but the ones that were bad didnt stay in service much after the 50s, especially not with fixed wing operations

Karel Doorman/Veintecinco de Mayo basically only stayed in service because she was gutted by a fire so the Argentines bought her for cheap and did a full rebuild, the Dutch were just going to scrap her because it just wasn't worth it

Vikrant needed an entire rebuild to keep her in service beyond the late 60s too

[junior trench]

if you want to add extra confusion there's the fleet carriers which were liner conversions in the IJN

[desert agate]

the
the 24kn fleet carrier

[junior trench]

the slow conversions and the fast conversions

[spiral cedar]

And somehow people still have the gall to call Wasp the "worst carrier"

[junior trench]

[desert agate]

wasp was a good girl and she tried her best

[junior trench]

Wasp trades protection to keep up to a speed and offensive standard

the liner conversions trade all of these

in exchange for being easily converted

[spiral cedar]

In exchange for avoiding treaty limits

[desert agate]

[spiral cedar]

and then the pilot pool is too small to fully man every carrier anyway

[junior trench]

oops, all your intended pilots died flying long range escort missions at the limit of their endurance against an enemy with constant early warning

[desert agate]

b-but muh spirit of the emperor

[junior trench]

"why are we getting dived on by flying barrels?"

and other questions to ask yourself before bursting into flames

[desert agate]

my soldiers were all so courageous and forswore technology in favour of their indomitable human spirit and belief in the emperor how could they possibly have lost

they had such manly recruitment ads

[junior trench]

and then the absolute slaughter that happened when USN and USMC Corsair units got pushed forward to land bases in the Solomons

🤌

(which is where the in-game VF-17 "Pirate" Squadron gained its reputation, for those of you in the audience)

[tawny harness]

Why does British conflict with Germany on Atlantic Ocean is called Battle of Atlantic?

Shouldn't it be considered more as a campaign due to the length?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Atlantic

[remote monolith]

On 5 March 1941, First Lord of the Admiralty A. V. Alexander asked Parliament for "many more ships and great numbers of men" to fight "the Battle of the Atlantic", which he compared to the Battle of France, fought the previous summer
Churchill claimed to have coined the phrase "Battle of the Atlantic" shortly before Alexander's speech, but there are several examples of earlier usage.

TLDR its the Brits that coined the term

[tawny harness]

Did the Brits or German used any aircraft carrier on Atlantic Ocean btw? Are their tactics similar to the ones in the Pacific if they did used it?

[delicate beacon]

German
Using aircraft carriers
They didnt even have a single one operational

[desert agate]

the entire concept of an escort carrier was to protect the Atlantic convoys from German submarines

the British first tried to escort their convoys with fleet carriers

but then they lost a couple to submarines so they started shitting out small cheap escort carriers instead

[delicate beacon]

There's also the successful MAC ships

[desert agate]

and in terms of tactics well

there werent any fleet carrier battles in the Atlantic because only 1 side had any carriers

the Mediterranean was a more active theatre for fleet carrier operations but again, no one except the Allies actually had any carriers

[delicate beacon]

The Germans didn't have much surface presence either.

[remote monolith]

in the Mediterranean both sides more frequently uses ground based aircrafts anyway given that pretty much the entire are are close by to at least one Axis/Allied base, with maybe the Eastern Mediterranean being off limit to the Axis

[autumn sorrel]

Isn't there also disagreement in Italian military about whose authority it was over aircraft for aircraft carrier? Like the Regina Aeronautica don't like the idea of Regina Marina have their own air force and the reason above about how the entire Italian Penisula can provide long range air cover.

[eternal veldt]

Slight elaboration on the CVE part, a rough third of these "hundred" carriers are the "Casablanca" class carriers, with a short enough flight deck that FM-2 Wildcats are often deployed on them rather than the F6F.

Many of the US CVLs are also "conversions", as the Independence and Saipan class would show.

Finally, there is the interesting case of the Japanese Hiyou class carriers, built from the keel up as Ocean Liners but with conversions already planned ahead, as the funding of the two ships were provided by the military.

[remote monolith]

more or less. I'm not the go-to guy for it, that'll be Undie, but my understanding is that the Italian high command has very complex arrangements regarding how to procure and direct aviation assets for navy/ground needs which limits flexibilities and response time, even when the hardware and servicemen are generally competent

[eternal veldt]

And I forgot to mention, CVEs later into the war also get turned into assisting with picket duty

USS Shamrock Bay's FM-2s helped in Laffey 724's struggle against the 52 kamikazes.

[junior trench]

the RN only built 6 CVEs

the other 38 were all lend lease from the US

34 of which were the majority of the 45 Bogue class CVEs

split into the Attacker and Ruler class

3 more were US built Avenger class

and the final was Long Island's sister

[spring briar]

We even received one of those bogues (hms biter) Dixmude in french service

Forgot the US name

Ok nvm it was an avenger class cve

[junior trench]

on the US side there were:
1 Long Island (2 ship class, 1 to the RN)
1 Avenger (4 ship class, 3 to the RN)
4 Sangamon
11 Bogue (45 ship class, 34 to the RN)
50 Casablanca
19 Commencement Bay

[spring briar]

Thats a lot

[junior trench]

124 CVEs

built by the US

the UK built... 6

[spring briar]

[humble mulch]

Goddamn

[spring briar]

Béan

[ivory ridge]

born

[spring briar]

Jason Bearn

[junior trench]

for some daft reason the wiki page for "list of escort carriers by country" counts all 45 RN CVEs as built by the RN

[spring briar]

[delicate beacon]

Probs counts MACs and stuff

[tribal mortar]

Ass

[spring briar]

[desert agate]

https://twitter.com/6diddy6/status/1599388098361962496

Paul Durham 🇺🇦⚫️⚪️ (@6diddy6)

Originally a German construction, the Australians converted this bunker at Hill 60 in 1917, in preparation of the anticipated German offensive which would eventually come in the spring of 1918. The concrete rippling indicates that this is a ‘British’ bunker.

#FWW #WW1 #Ypres

Twitter · Dec 4, 2022, 1:00 PM

https://twitter.com/SimonJHistorian/status/1599698639332421633

Simon Jones (@SimonJHistorian)

No one ever talks about the 1940 German 37mm anti-tank projectile embedded in the front of this bunker.

Twitter · Dec 5, 2022, 9:34 AM

[tribal mortar]

That's her backside!

[spring briar]

ye

[desert agate]

looks like RAAF is helping train the RAF on their Wedgetails
senior MoD personnel arrived in Canberra today/yesterday
guessing we'll do the same for the Americans

[cinder escarp]

Besides the differences in carrier types, modern fleet CVNs are utterly massive - at around 110,000t (a late retrofit nimitz or a ford), it's about three Essexes or about 2.25 midways. Not to mention the cost of being full cats & traps, nuclear power, complete radar and and battlegroup command....

[chilly osprey]

*Regia. 'Regina' is 'queen', whereas 'Regia' is 'Royal'.

The issue for carriers in Italy ran even deeper than that. In WWI the Regia Marina had raised its own naval air arm, which filled basically every role - recon, ASW, fighter escort, torpedo bombing, etc - and this continued into the 1920s. Keep in mind that at this point in time there was no air force, there was only the army (Regio Esercito) air corps and navy air corps.

However, after the fascist takeover, an independent air force was created, the Regia Aeronautica. This branch of the military was well connected to the fascist party and was intended by Mussolini to act as a political counterweight, along with the blackshirt militas, to the army and navy. Over the course of the 1920s, they slowly took more and more control of the air arms of the other branches until finally decreeing that all fixed-wing avaiation belonged to the air force alone, and then went even further by limiting the allowed role of the navy's hydroplane/flying boat squadrons.

From this point on, the air force did pretty much whatever it could to prevent the navy from having an argument for reclaiming it's air arm. This included doing things like denying the need for an aircraft carrier (and making claims like the 'Italy is a massive aircraft carrier' that they knew perfectly well were false), and rejecting torpedo bombing as an anti-shipping method in favor of level bombing. This situation persisted up until the end of the 1930s, with the air force only relenting on torpedo bombing in 1939 (but that still remained under the air force).

Throughout this period, it was generally agreed upon that authority over the aircraft on any potential carriers would belong to the air force, even if the navy operated the ship. However, the difficulties the navy had actually getting the air force to work with them on a carrier pushed procurement back further and further (the navy made requests every year for a pair of 15,000-ton ships in the late 1930s). This situation also appeared about to work itself out in 1939, but the outbreak of war, and the air force's chief of staff changing from Giuseppe Valle (who was finally coming around on the carrier question) to the 'air power for air force only' hardliner Francesco Pricolo killed the effort.

[tribal mortar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_XF5U

How OP this plane will be if it enters AL?

Would this powercrept the current strongest?

[spring briar]

No

It will be a gimmick plane

[strong plank]

if

[delicate beacon]

Aaaaaaaa

The US Asiatic fleet is just why

And I thought the CIC Signapore was bad

[tough quail]

as far as AL goes its pretty standard

[tough quail]

57s 57s 57s 57s

[eternal veldt]

Real copium hours

Bort retro

[manic latch]

It's gold in game so

Don't expect much power

[eternal veldt]

There's your French UR, now stfu

[spring briar]

W13: exists
JB retro: hon hon

https://tenor.com/view/french-bread-銀魂-銀ちゃん-gintama-フランスパン-gif-8288669

[autumn sorrel]

Next update is French tech centric and I can already feel the insufferable "Bonjour" vibe from Richie half a way across the globe.

[tough quail]

drown in it

[eternal veldt]

Vive la Marine

[strong plank]

Hey y’all I’m at the library y’all want anything

[spring briar]

projectiles

[strong plank]

I’m here to grab sources on soviet shit

[spring briar]

Mle1897

[delicate beacon]

You have a nice library

[spring briar]

Ikr

[delicate beacon]

I need to go to Amsterdam and the Navy Museum to get a collection that good

[strong plank]

maybe it's bc we're near norfolk and all that but we've got a ton of military stuff

even booklets from the army war college

[tight violet]

What model is this
Pics say thats 2a7 but what is that turret side armour

[frigid karma]

Man

Imagine if Norfolk looked like Yokosuka

Yokosuka got drip

Norfolk looks boring

[spring briar]

Based library

Where is this

[strong plank]

[strong plank]

College of William and Mary

[spring briar]

[strong plank]

Bro holy shit

I turn around and there’s books on fencing right behind the navy stuff

[spring briar]

[frigid karma]

Fencing is crucial for the navy

Stops the sailors from going overboard

[somber knoll]

also

hold up

[strong plank]

I’m excited because I fence and I’m trying to do a project on it, and haven’t found many academic sources yet

[spring briar]

fencing is a good sport

just don't destroy your ligaments ok

[strong plank]

Oi Sang

[somber knoll]

I was about to ask if you fence in archaic or modern terms
are you going for the good ole foil or full blown HEMA?

[strong plank]

I do Foil

[somber knoll]

Noice

[manic latch]

Soviet Naval Strategy

[somber knoll]

I do Longsword, mostly self-study on Ringeck and Talhoffer.
A bit of Hutton's sabre as well.

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NichoConcu/status/1599781025806106624

A-129 Mangusta (@NichoConcu)

Bad news for Brazil, seems like a judge has suspended the acquisition (not outright cancelled) for the B2 Centauro's. Some arguments for the suspension included "Was not reasonable and had no common sense" and "why buy weapons in times of peace?". Really silly reasons imo.

Likes

104

Twitter · Dec 5, 2022, 3:01 PM

[delicate beacon]

You obviously shouldn't arm yourself untill you are invaded

[frigid karma]

The damn Venezuelans

[spring briar]

(the above one is RC)

[tough quail]

excellent

[manic latch]

Project 1961

[cinder escarp]

Fun fact: there's THREE entirely different 2A7s

Because Germany

Actually, there's four come to think about it...

Anyhow, that's a very rare 2A7 vanilla

Those were Dutch 2A6NLs loaned to Canada and upgraded to 2A6M CAN standards. They got returned to Germany (when Canada bought brand new ones), and used to demonstrate a major electronics refit and some other changes. There's 20 of them.

(To make things extra confusing, there is 2A7(V), 2A7+, and 2A7A1)

[median totem]

hmmm . . .quite interest

[cinder escarp]

The 2A7A1s are 2A7(V)s fitted with Trophy. 2A7(V) is the new standard production variant for the Bundeswehr and virtually all earlier tanks including the 'vanilla' 2A7s will be updated to it. It includes the 2A7 vanilla upgrades plus some extras.

When all tanks are finished being rebuilt to 2A7(V), the (V) will be dropped and it will just be 2A7

The 2A7+ are new build vehicles, with all of the upgrades of the 2A7(V), some extras, and built on the Leopard 2 Improved hull & chassis like STRV 122, 2A6HEL, and 2A6E.

Clear as mud? Leo 2 subvariants is a nightmare.

With that said when its done the 2A7(V) program will massively simplify things - there's like 6 configs of Leopard 2 being used just in the bundeswehr

For example this is a Leopard 2A6MA3, and yes that is a real designation

[frigid karma]

Bro every time I hear a7v I think of the ww1 tank

[tough quail]

i do into a blind rage because im thinking about germoney

[ivory ridge]

https://twitter.com/CiroNappi6/status/1599820103159201793?s=20&t=uGfgZqBRtpDRi4kkwkuBZg

Ciro Nappi (@CiroNappi6)

Training on the western Alps between Italian Army Alpini of 2nd Alpini regiment from "Taurinense" brigade (units also from 1nd Nizza cavalry regiment, 32nd sappers regiment), and Armée de Terre Chasseurs Alpins.
Some vehicles used:
-B1 Centauro 8x8.
-VBL Puma 6x6.
-LMV Lince.

Likes

102

Twitter · Dec 5, 2022, 5:36 PM

[tough quail]

yos

[ivory ridge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/684722676371423267/1049405762977402910/7zeruz2d3h061.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/684722676371423267/1049405793268678747/48slvved3h061.png

Puma captured by Libyan rebels

[shrewd pecan]

counter strike car

[frigid karma]

With a 4500 dollar skin

[tight violet]

Kmw said this was a 2a7 but i dont recall any 2a7 with the strv-122 turret roof

[subtle prawn]

https://www.defenseone.com/business/2022/12/army-chooses-bell-v-280-replace-its-black-hawk-helicopters/380487/

[strong plank]

ayo?

[manic latch]

Nooooooo

Fuuuck

Invictus was better

[strong plank]

thats uh

a different program

[manic latch]

Wait

There is other

Uhhh

KA-52 looking

[strong plank]

invictus is for the Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft program

[manic latch]

Raider!

That's right Raider

It was Raider who fought against V-280 right

Or did Raider try to do both as Attack and transport variants

[strong plank]

the black hawk replacement bid was between the Bell 280 Valor and the Sikorsky/Boeing SB-1 Defiant

curious to see how this choice will pan out

[manic latch]

Ok ok yeah Defiant is transport variant of Invader

[strong plank]

the Osprey's shown the merits of tiltrotor aircraft so its a decently safe choice

the Valor has good speed, but being a tiltrotor it'll need a larger landing footprint

[manic latch]

Bell reminds me Mi-30. I'm glad she won then

[spring briar]

Why can’t they make super manoeuvrability ufo’s yet

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrKoaValItk

[strong plank]

found in a 1981 report on the Forger

or wait not the forger itself

actually I'm not sure what aircraft this report is on

maybe the Su-27?

the report's from 1981 and it's talking about a new twin-engine fighter, possibly from sukhoi, that they believe is being developed for carrier operations

they call it RAM-L

so mig 29?

[spring briar]

Wha

[frigid karma]

those are old

they're already almost on live

[spring briar]

Yeah

Just saw the T10 tho