theI-400 class of the IJN was also not the greatest of submarine carriers
#history
manic latch
theI-400 class of the IJN was also not the greatest of submarine carriers
This ain't carrier tho
This carry amphibious vehicles
I-400 carry planes
valid trout
This ain't carrier tho
true
how many amphibious vehicles can this submarine landing ship carry?
delicate beacon
As if I-400 was a carrier
valid trout
As if I-400 was a carrier
it only carried maximum 3 planes iirc
delicate beacon
Yeah, not more than a large amount of surface ships would
maiden citrus
chilly osprey
Yeah, completed covered up. Top fucking secret
How would any American have known?
So well covered up, I'm amazed we even know about it today
frigid karma
bombed oregon of all fucking places
probably the rainiest place on the west coast
oh yeeeeah it's a dry season right now it'll totally start a forest fire
smothered in 5 seconds
tribal mortar
Sounds like something nobody cared
Hey, the Japanese dropped firebombs in Oregon.
Who the hell cares, Bob?
maiden citrus
the singular bombo
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
Twitter
strong plank
Sounds like someone couldn’t handle the Washington style
eternal veldt
Hiei:
Akagi:
Kaga:
Soryu:
Hiryu:
valid trout
huh
alpine onyx
insert Drachinifel's "Kirishima's ability to stay afloat was superior to Bismarck's"-nonsense
subtle prawn
I don’t follow here, when did he say that?
spiral cedar
Wut
alpine onyx
Four or five drydocks back
"Kirishima stayed afloat longer than Bismarck, between the opening of the respective engagements and the ships slipping beneath the water, so uhm, staying above the water for a long period was not the strength of the Bismarck that you might otherwise think."
frigid karma
uh
that's not him stating that kirishima was better at floating than bismarck
it's a counterargument to the statement that staying above water = bismarck stronk
which is a pretty common wehraboo argument
also this new font is disturbing
frigid karma
that's not him stating that kirishima was better at floating than bismarck
unless there's more context to what he said?
alpine onyx
He was saying that in the context of Bismarck being one of the fastest battleships to sink once engaged, bar a few exceptions, and how that is contrary to the commonly cited strength of hers
lemme get the video
spring briar
Perhaps not bringing it up so often will make it so you are less depressed
alpine onyx
If I wasn't hearing it repeated so often across multiple platforms it'd be easier to ignore his nonsense
Tho I don't disagree with Bismarck being one of the most overrated ships in history, tho recent years did bring up some new contenders
sullen canyon
valid trout
Tho I don't disagree with Bismarck being one of the most overrated ships in hist...
which ships are considered such contenders?
alpine onyx
Piorun did get her service overblown quite a lot recently
from "engaged a battleship for one hour" to "solo'd a battleship for an entire night on her own, drove up within a few hundred meters to throw trash at it"
and taking the credit of the night-long harassment the rest of the British forces did
spiral cedar
Piorun herself lost contact during the battle and failed to find the site of battle again for the rest of the night
Her initial solo charge also kinda made a coordinated multi-DD torpedo attack impossible
(Tho the odds of pulling one off successfully given the weather and sea conditions was not favorable anyway tbf)
alpine onyx
If I go by only one engagement (tbf, not like Bismarck had much more than that 
), Warspite at Narvik is also massively overblown
since arrived after the first British destroyer attack managed to land crippling hits and forced the German fleet to stay in the Fjord, and even when she arrived she did not do much beyond engaging one destroyer
which got inflated to her solo'ing half of the German destroyer fleet
alpine onyx
I do dislike it when ships take credit from others
especially when those others had to earn their achievements with blood
frigid karma
which got inflated to her solo'ing half of the German destroyer fleet
ok but warspite also went into the fjord in the first place
which is a very ballsy move and so it's ok to wank her unlike biscuit
i would say most wanked ship depends on which nation you're from
or sometimes not even ship, but classes
german u-boats are notoriously played up by the brits
spring briar
Warspite is easily the most overwanked ship
frigid karma
french belgian
opinion on british ships discarded
spring briar
K
frigid karma
much more people know about bismarck than the warspite
warspite doesn't have two songs about her
and you don't see people on quora claiming warspite could solo iowa/yamato
spring briar
Warspite is still wanked more in naval history circles
maiden citrus
If I go by only one engagement (tbf, not like Bismarck had much more than that <...
don't worry, I've called that one out before
spiral cedar
and you don't see people on quora claiming warspite could solo iowa/yamato
I have seen Warspite against Bismarck a few times
maiden citrus
Warspite is easily the most overwanked ship
the voice of god speaks through you
frigid karma
I have seen Warspite against Bismarck a few times
again, it's not entirely impossible but just less probable that warspite is wanked
reminds me of that texas v yamato argument
''''argument''''
spiral cedar
Warspite in 1941 was not the “vintage WWI ship” as so many claim, she had been comprehensibly rebuilt in the mid 30ties, and was technologically at par with Bismarck. The RN reconstruction process was comprehensive, all inclusive and cost almost half of a new battleship at the time, so dramatically improved battle-worthiness. In 1941 the rebuilt Elizabeth-class were among the top ten battleships afloat in the world.
She had much better radar and far more experience in the use of radar than Bismarck, she had one of the best gunnery crews of the Royal Navy, and had been in the fight for two years hitting and destroying lots of ships in Narvik and the Mediterranean, this in contrast to the completely green crew of the Bismarck for which this was their first engagement. The crew also had received their fair share in live damage control. So hard specs are only a small part of the fighting power of a ship, the rest is crew experience, training, and motivation, all better in Warspite.
Finally, guessing the outcome, its a pure matter of luck as to which ship would land the first lucky hits, my guess, Warspite would have a clear advantage there.
Top ten battleships in the world afloat in 1941
What’s the list
maiden citrus
you see the list goes to -10 as well
warspite's immune zone on bismarck is comical
frigid karma
>>> Warspite in 1941 was not the “vintage WWI ship” as so many claim, she had be...
Let’s get this onto Wikipedia so drach reads it
spiral cedar
Warspite would win.
In a firing trial against Hood in the late 1930,s after Warspite was modernised the Grand old lady comprehensively out shot Hood. Warspite and the 5th battle squadron at Jutland in 1916 scored hits at a greater range than Bismarck did at Denmark Strait in 1941.
Warspite had a crack crew, every gun from the 15” to the 2pdr Pom Poms had a maximum proficiency rating.
At a range over 20000yds the 15” 42cal had superior deck penetration with a heavy 1936lb shell and more powerful bursting charge. Warspite still holds the record to this day for the longest gunnery hit ever achieved by a Battleship on a Battleship ( equaled by Scharnhorst on an aircraft carrier). U-boats, aircraft,mines, guided bombs and the entire High Seas Fleet could not defeat Warspite.
maiden citrus
insert lex luthor wrong meme
maiden citrus
does not hold the limit, guided bomb permanently screwed her, bismarck's design screws her guns
I'm glad I trimmed that and posted it here to respond to something
I silly laughed at seeing it posted
alpine onyx
only time I saw that was Warspite mopping the floor with Tirpitz, apparently
maiden citrus
frigid karma
Also uh
spring briar
Warsprit
frigid karma
Why do people bother bringing up the longest range hit thing
That’s literally pure luck
maiden citrus
it's also not even correct
frigid karma
At those kind of ranges
maiden citrus
frigid karma
Not quite
Battleships have been able to destroy each other from much further ranges
alpine onyx
Longest range hit in history is a combination of luck and opportunity
spiral cedar
Longest range hit was El Hank hitting Massy 
spring briar
🇫🇷🤝🇺🇸
maiden citrus
longest range hit was me telling rich I need a hot dog delivered in 2 seconds and he threw it across the atlantic at me
frigid karma
Longest range hit was El Hank hitting Massy <:Smuggybucky:899424029612580886>
Dreadnought, for instance, fucked every battleship on the planet from the distance of Great Britain when launched
Ergo she had the longest range hit
spiral cedar
I've seen much argument made that near misses are hits
maiden citrus
it hit me right in the mouf
spring briar
Lewd
frigid karma
Jingles: “almost is a very polite way of saying didnt”
spiral cedar
German was the only period country that persisted with a none all or nothing armour system
How are you exactly wrong
maiden citrus
that's advanced jank
maiden citrus
jack, turn off my quora inhibitors
spiral cedar
Warspite was the crack of the cracks
frigid karma
Certainly cracked
spiral cedar
I also have read that British 15″ guns could fire up to 3 rounds per minute . That’s a lot more shells over just a 15 minute engagement than could be fired by the Bismarck .
frigid karma
However it must be said warspite had a banger poem written about her
So it’s entirely acceptable to wank her
spiral cedar
Yes
maiden citrus
Dreadnought, for instance, fucked every battleship on the planet from the distan...
longest shot is the first shot of the american revolution as it not only hit every british ship but every single british citizen and was heard worldwide
spring briar
Germany until 1931: haha we have the longest range artillery record
France in 1931: bababoey
frigid karma
longest shot is the first shot of the american revolution as it not only hit eve...
Those were not battleships
It was a frigate shipgirl
Smh
spiral cedar
Bismark was 15,000 tons heavier with the same armour, same guns and a 6knot advantage.
Bismarck is 15k tons heavier than Spootspite now?
Full load was 36k after her refit
alpine onyx
If you go with full displacement, maybe
but full load is a bit misleading because f u e l
frigid karma
If they go full brain dead you must counter with full brain dead
alpine onyx
standard displacement should be around 31k
frigid karma
You cannot logic a person out of stance they didn’t logic into
Adopt crazier arguments
Bismarck beats warspite because 38 CM overmatches 26 but not 32
spiral cedar
However, the Warspite defied all logic on why it was so successful. In my opinion, the Warspite was better than the KGV because it had bigger guns, better armor (it had full armor just like the Bismarck), was a smaller target, required a smaller crew, possibly easier to operate, and very maneuverable.
maiden citrus
`Bismark was 15,000 tons heavier with the same armour, same guns and a 6knot adv...
and hood was 15,000 tons heaver with a combat disadvantage
kgv armor is overblown but it has better armor than warspite, tf
spiral cedar
In March 1935 HMS WARSPITE was taken in hand for reconstruction at Portsmouth and was the first of her class to undergo an extensive modernization. Work done included modifications to her 15in guns, including a longer barrel for better accuracy
Ah yes, the famous 15”/52
maiden citrus
noooooooo
maiden citrus
Here I thought KGV armor was second only to Yamato
spring briar
alpine onyx
suffer
spiral cedar
It’s true, if you only look at magazine deck armor
maiden citrus
fast nevada weird lookin thing
spring briar
spring briar
Richie 170 
+ 40 
spiral cedar
SoDak’s a bit thinner because her deck armor is split less ideally, so laminated plate weakness
alpine onyx
now lemme return to 329 to 200somthing mm exposed barbettes
spiral cedar
at least it’s not Vanguard turret faces
very tight turning radius, better than any other battleship
maiden citrus
nope
spiral cedar
Would wanna see a source for that
maiden citrus
qe turning rate was comparable to nc from a blurb I read on the brits talking about nc from a visit
alpine onyx
what was the turning circle
maiden citrus
standard turning rate was absurd and assuredly better than theirs
alpine onyx
someone hab sauce?
spiral cedar
It took two more KGV class battleships, an escort of destroyers, submarines and torpedo bombers to finally put the Bismarck down.
Congrats Rodney, you have been promoted (demoted?) to KGV
Also U-556 getting partial kill credit for Bisco, nice
frigid karma
<:u556wave:586409806395473928>
You know
Her waving at a pissed off tirpitz is in an entirely different context if she shanked Bismarck
“Your sister cried like a little bitch and you’re next”
maiden citrus
I don't know numbers for qe turning circle, just that the brits said nc's was 'better than our modern ships and comparable to some older ones'
nc's was 683 yards at max speed
spiral cedar
Bismarck was scuttled…by U-556, the new theory
maiden citrus
which sounds good until you start getting to the standards, penny's is 550
frigid karma
The loli behind the slaughter
spring briar
How are we back at the bismarck scuttling narrative
maiden citrus
new mexico 560
frigid karma
How are we back at the bismarck scuttling narrative
Bismarck did not scuttle herself
U556 killed her
alpine onyx
Twin rudders are magic
spring briar
maiden citrus
guess it makes sense, over 100 more than nc
spiral cedar
Fletcher’s rudder has a comparable area to most twin rudder DDs of the time
The rudder probably wasn’t the main issue
It was the hullform, optimized for speed over maneuverability
alpine onyx
Gearing superior to the Fruit Chair
maiden citrus
which is funny as clemson and farragut were the opposite, they wanted greater maneuverability
alpine onyx
🍍 🪑
spring briar
Pineapple chair
alpine onyx
spiral cedar
maiden citrus
they were unsatisfied with the wickes maneuverability, and wanted to change the hullform for the clemsons, but mid war that wasn't a good idea, the farraguts fixed the issue and had superb maneuverability in comparison
(though the wickes/clemson stern had excellent shape for asw)
spiral cedar
https://youtu.be/mzveUz-WRGQ
Ever since, though, the USN has gone with twin rudders for destroyers,
alpine onyx
maiden citrus
dds cute
maiden citrus
now that's a turn
alpine onyx
This is an Arial household
manic latch
You know what would be cool
WNT will limit total BB number to 4
But
They will have no tonnage limit
maiden citrus
helvetica neue supremacy
and hm, at 30 knots you could skii, so the commentator is correct
spiral cedar
https://youtu.be/3i9DyEBtAHA
Kinda curious now what the Yorktown class turning circle was
maiden citrus
(as a skiier)
spiral cedar
Given the Lexes had rather poor turning circles by comparison
maiden citrus
that does seem like tighter turning than I expected a yorktown to do
alpine onyx
doing 35kn is difficult
spiral cedar
Despite the above, British naval designers *really* *did* know everything there was to know about post-war battleship design, and they worked all that knowledge into Warspite’s 1936 rebuild.
spring briar
spiral cedar
These guns were arranged in four turrets, which were superior to three turrets x 3 guns, as they increased the probability of strikes, and reduced dispersion for better accuracy.
Cries in Italian CAs
spring briar
they surely got the heavy AA on Warspite right
I think they are referring to the bomb deck
spiral cedar
Radar: The fire control was also modernized to include the HACS MkIII AA fire control system and the Mk VII for surface fire control of the main armament. Yes modern radar for fire control, and on par with the Iowa.
spiral cedar
For sufficiently wide values of par
In short, the WW2 Warspite modern version was probably more deadly than the KGV, and possibly as good as the HMS Vanguard.
spiral cedar
Bretagne was declared a battleship, but her armor did nor even reach the thickness of ballecruisers such as Kongo or Hood!.
@spring briar
delicate beacon
Kongo and Hood, what a combination
spiral cedar
Simply untrue.
The KGV’s armor was better than Bismarck’s in its quantity, its quality, and its disposition throughout the ship.
The armor scheme of the KGV’s was NOT sacrificed despite their smaller size.
Speed was, as was endurance. But armor, no.
Armor was significantly better than the Bismarck’s, and second only to the Yamato’s.
Look who’s back, back again
alpine onyx
you thought I was making that up? 
spiral cedar
No
I’ve seen it many a time
Always sad to see tho
(Victory at Sea miniatures says KGV has equal armor to Yamato)
Someone who knows engineering principles, gunnery, and armor schemes says Bismarck.
Someone who knows the Sea says Warspite, and smiles knowing the universe smiles with them.
maiden citrus
what did I come back to
spring briar
what did I come back to
The only battleships in existence are bismarck and warspite
maiden citrus
that would make these 'warspite is super strong we promise' things correct
if only one ship exists and has radar, it is on par with any other
maiden citrus
> These guns were arranged in four turrets, which were superior to three turrets...
man wait until we tell them about ships in better states than 1936 warspite, pre 1936, that have four turrets that also all have 3 guns, that'd be crazy right
spring briar
Even QUAD!! Guns
maiden citrus
what? impossible
alpine onyx
I bring up Texas, and all of your arguments are invalid
Just gonna flood half my ship to extend the range
maiden citrus
PENTA TURRET?????
spiral cedar
If the Bismarck’s crew is competent enough to identify the Warspite, develop a reasonable strategy to engage it, managed competent fire control and damage control, it will win over 96%, probably 99% of the time.
99% tf 
maiden citrus
he's... he's got the spirit
over 96, like 99
maiden citrus
my ship is fast, it goes 21 knots, more than 20
valid trout
my ship is fast, it goes 21 knots, more than 20
What ship is it?
alpine onyx
North Carolina
maiden citrus
opens my large coat, revealing all the standards
spiral cedar
In the Atlantic/Mediterranean we saw multiple 40000 tonne cheat battleships go down. Did the RN lose much apart from Hood in the theatre?
maiden citrus
thas a nice little cutie you got there friend
spring briar
alpine onyx
Yeah, KGVs totally not cheating
maiden citrus
handsome specimen...
valid trout
You want a smol?
When was the SH sunk?
alpine onyx
December 1944 during an air raid
maiden citrus
unfortunate, cute ship
alpine onyx
Schlesien survived that raid and continued for a few more weeks, but struck a mine
valid trout
Ah ok
alpine onyx
The last of her kind, just like Lützow when she was sunk
Meanwhile Eugen getting all melancholic in her diary upon hearing of this
valid trout
The last of her kind, just like Lützow when she was sunk
The ex-Deutschland?
Graf spee sister
spring briar
spiral cedar
Optical range finders are one thing. Radar, which was primitive and not integrated by RN standards, meant that at range Warspite was likely to have stated hitting Bismarck before she had even registered Warspite's existence.
The armour belt was actually very good in Warspite and there is no doubt she was a better gunplatform.
spring briar
DT
alpine onyx
That means that again two old, loyal brothers in arms left the ring. Both the last of their type.```jaba feeding us laughs, the christmas spirit lives within him
spiral cedar
History is full of under rated weapons systems: The Spitfire would never be able to compete with the Focke Wulf and Messerchmit aircraft. The A10 Wart Hog can not compete against modern warefare, the F15 is a sitting duck against the 5th generation aircraft, the Russian T72 - T90 tanks are better than anything else in world, and so on. You forget that the Warspite had the same guns as the Bismarck. You forget that the rebuilt Warspite had the same armor scheme as the Bismarck. It had new guns, powerplant, armor and rangefinders. You forget that the Warspite was much more maneuverable than the Bismarck. You forget that the Warspite was a much smaller target. You forget that the Warspite had the best battleship crew in the world. The last point easily negates all advantages that the Bismarck had. However, I do agree that the Bismarck was probably the best “raider” battleship ever built. I had some articles on this.
maiden citrus
spits out drink
maiden citrus
coughs profusely and falls onto the floor choking, the very life fading from my eyes
spiral cedar
It’s some Polish person who keeps copy-pasting the exact same blurb about Warspite’s refits below a bunch of comments
Oh wait, no, Polish name but former US navy, according to profile
spiral cedar
Also by that guy
However, because the Bismarck was under Nazi leadership, and the Germans were not fighting to save their country, the quality of their fighting ability sucked. Many of the crew gave up when they saw the British fleet and airpower coming after them, and were most likely looking to surrender rather than fighting to the bitter end in a war they probably did not believe in.
valid trout
> History is full of under rated weapons systems: The Spitfire would never be ab...
But the Warspite is slower then the Bismarck iirc
alpine onyx
Wat?
spiral cedar
But the Warspite is slower then the Bismarck iirc
I posted that because the person is wrong to a funny degree
Don’t think it’s true
valid trout
True lol
alpine onyx
It's hilariously wrong
spiral cedar
Comparing the Bismarck to the KGV.
The Bismarck also had the best 6″ guns of WW2, which could be used to effectively to knock out optics, control centers and communication.
alpine onyx
Eugen at Denmark Strait was too eager to fight
spring briar
@maiden citrus want to talk about smth other than Warspite, Bismarck and KGV?
valid trout
> Comparing the Bismarck to the KGV.
> The Bismarck also had the best 6″ guns of...
Bruh where did this guy get his info from
maiden citrus
a dream
spiral cedar
Bottom of a beer mug
spring briar
Headcannon
maiden citrus
theres like one or two things he said that are somewhat right and the rest is lunacy
spiral cedar
Who would win in a 1 on 1 engagement between the battleships King George V and the Bismarck?
I think that the Bismarck was the superior ship in a one on one scenario against any pre-1940 Battleship, such as the Yamato, KGV, etc… Using the Yamato as an example, the Yamato had a lot of problems with accuracy and complexity of getting her 18″ guns to work. The 18″ guns also had a lot of dispersion problems, and the high energy caused the turrets to go out of alignment or knocking themselves out of action. The Yamato was slower than the Bismarck, took a longer time to accelerate and not quite as maneuverable. The four turret 15″ guns of the Bismarck could fire every 20 seconds, compared to the Yamato at every 45 seconds. Also, the “all or nothing” armor scheme left the Yamato vulnerable to smaller high rate fire guns. Finally, the Yamato had the poorest fire control of any WW2 battleship. Imagine that she relied on a tube system to communicate orders with whistles and yells. Therefore, in a true one on one battle, I would take speed, accuracy, reliability, superior technology, and survivability over brute force.
question about KGV
let’s talk Yamato instead
spring briar
valid trout
Also Yamato 45 second reload??
spiral cedar
spiral cedar
Also Yamato 45 second reload??
That part is correct I believe
20s is not, that was the shell supply rate to the turrets
valid trout
I thought it was always 30 seconds
maiden citrus
yeah the yamato low maneuverability, poor fire control and bad turrets
with cherry on top of aon myth
spring briar
Aon bad bc not everything armoured aaaaaaa
alpine onyx
Yamato's average rate of fire at combat ranges was one shell per 45s
alpine onyx
Excluding wait time caused by FC updating
maiden citrus
yamato had good dispersion, fantastic maneuverability, good turret design according to post war views, and fire control with optics that were some of the best in the world
they flipped a ton of strengths into weaknesses
that's how wrong they are, somehow
spiral cedar
But yeah, if you add in time to elevate the guns at realistic ranges, you have to add a couple seconds
So 45s is more realistic
But as a standard point of comparison, 40s is official
alpine onyx
Absolute fastest firing cycle for Yamato's guns was 28s I think
maiden citrus
it's why 'load at any elevation' is often said
spring briar
Richie has nice hips 
maiden citrus
then you are based
valid trout
With Albion
spiral cedar
Official damage data on the hits received by HMS Prince of Wales on Denmark Strait battle you can evaluate. Seven hits within a very short time.
Yeah, just ignore that half the hits were by a different ship 
valid trout
Eugen
spiral cedar
The British navy had been starved of funds in the postwar years and little effort had been made to develop new weaponry. Torpedoes and shells carried feeble charges and lacked penetrative power.
British shells
Feeble charges
alpine onyx
Eugen didn't feel like hiding
spring briar
> The British navy had been starved of funds in the postwar years and little eff...
Dorsetshire disagrees
alpine onyx
spiral cedar
Bismarck’s armor scheme made her immune to cruiser guns.
Did you know that 60mm plates stop 8” AP?
I really wonder why anyone ever made 6” belts on cruisers when 60mm is immune
alpine onyx
I mean, there is some truth to that, Bismarck's entire amidship hull was protected against cruiser fire
Not much truth
But some
maiden citrus
you see, the secret is the number 6 protects her
60mm, 6 inches, 6 meters, it doesn't matter
6 is 6
spring briar
Devilish
spiral cedar
A cruiser's 8-inch gun would wreck the hull of an "all or nothing" Battleship compromising her reserve buoyancy and sinking her. Iowa, Yamato, Richelieu could be sunk by a cruiser's gun, but the Bismarck could not. Take time to digest that statement. It is true.
I hate the fact that I’ve seen this exact wording so many times by now that I’ve memorized it
maiden citrus
the colorado class would like to know your location
alpine onyx
Welcome to my world
maiden citrus
kirishima hitting sodak: see your aon is compromised, you're gonna sink now
spiral cedar
Also, recall that the German Krupp steel was as good as it gets.
Just gonna leave this one here
spring briar
spiral cedar
Bismarck’s design used this as a basis to create a brawler but then added spaced armor to defeat high-angle attacks, improved bulkheads, and subdivisions, torpedo defenses, and a thinner top armor belt to fuse heavy shells and defeat smaller shells. An “all or nothing” ship had none of these features.
Did you know:
Subdivision, torpedo protection, and upper decks don’t exist on AoN ships
Doing the math. Bismarck’s vertical protection was in reality between 190mm and 300mm thick.
Yeap, it’s this guy again
valid trout
The polish guy strikes again
spring briar
Bismarck is actually invulnerable to a matchlock musket
spiral cedar
Finally, at last, a reasonable person on Quora
maiden citrus
man I wonder what other ships have insane bulkheads, subdivision and torpedo defenses
photo unrelated
spiral cedar
Now seeing someone say Scharnhorst had 50mm deck compared to Bismarck with 100mm deck
spring briar
Finally, at last, a reasonable person on Quora
Former environmental scientist
This guy pissed him off so bad his anger melted the ice caps and lost him his job
spiral cedar
alpine onyx
Meanwhile Scharnhorst's protection against AP bombs is superior to that of Bisko
Not by much
But it is
spiral cedar
Plus Warspites armour gives her some immunity to Bismarks shells whereas Bismark doesn’t have an immune zone to Warspites.
maiden citrus
maiden citrus
bismarck with an immune zone to warspite starting at 0 yards
spiral cedar
Do it, but just as a URL with no embed
valid trout
I feel like posting richie in lingerie
spring briar
maiden citrus
spring briar
manic latch
I feel like posting richie in lingerie
spring briar
valid trout
Richelieu reloading
spring briar
Yes
spiral cedar
Angory brit
valid trout
They only use 4 powder charges?
spiral cedar
4 is pretty normal
spring briar
Thanks for this information
valid trout
4 is pretty normal
And then the iowas with 6
spring briar
Doesn’t really indicate anything
valid trout
What is the range of the Richelieu
spring briar
41700 metres
spiral cedar
The gun or the sailing radius
valid trout
Gun range
spring briar
About 42 km
valid trout
Damn
spring briar
With reduced charge about 38
spiral cedar
Boat tail time
spiral cedar
38k yards iirc
silver crest
can someone clear this for me
silver crest
nazi germany was a fascist country right? despite having socialist in its party name?
valid trout
Isn’t that basically the range of Iowa guns?
spiral cedar
43 deg is the rebuilt max elevation
valid trout
nazi germany was a fascist country right? despite having socialist in its party ...
Yes
spiral cedar
Iowa max range is about 42k yards
silver crest
cuz some dumfuks in the comments sections keep calling it a socialist country
and not fascist
spring briar
nazi germany was a fascist country right? despite having socialist in its party ...
They called themselves national socialists
valid trout
Iowa max range is about 42k yards
And I always thought it was 39km
spiral cedar
And I always thought it was 39km
1km ~ 1.1k yards
valid trout
1km ~ 1.1k yards
Ah ok
spiral cedar
nazi germany was a fascist country right? despite having socialist in its party ...
They were fascist, yes. But they did implement some ‘socialist’ policies, as well as plenty of others that were not—they made a lot of money off privatizing industries, for example, which is the opposite of socialist. So it’s probably fair to describe them as a mixed economy overall
alpine onyx
LEt's just call it a mess
spring briar
State socialism with an emphasis on lebebsraum
And with fascist elements strewn about
With a pagan germanic folk mythos which only 1% of germans believed in
Based on esoteric false archeology
Truly unbased
spiral cedar
Based on esoteric false archeology
Truly unbased
Pick one
spring briar
valid trout
Why they blushing
spring briar
Bc they like it
spring briar
Sadomasochism
valid trout
Ah ok
spiral cedar
spring briar
spiral cedar
valid trout
What am I seeing
spiral cedar
spring briar
maiden citrus
oof
valid trout
Rip the tall people
spring briar
valid trout
What does the plaque say above it?
spring briar
15 cm german navy shell from the mauvanne batterie
valid trout
Ahh
spring briar
120km + range shell club
(I’m waiting for the blueprints of the other shells in this club to arrive at me house)
valid trout
nice
fierce sparrow
scrolling up and...
Quora. . .
ivory ridge
boat
manic latch
DM class yeee
The German pilot explains to his comrades how to attack the American bomber Liberator B-24 on the Messerschmitt Bf.109. Layout B-24 - with marked sectors of fire onboard machine guns.
valid trout
The German pilot explains to his comrades how to attack the American bomber Libe...
That’s actually kinda cool
ivory ridge
yes
manic latch
DM class yeee
spring briar
Krem
manic latch
What
spring briar
manic latch
spring briar
Krem I feel a lot of anger inside you
manic latch
I'm always angry ye
manic latch
missed 2 Valentine mails from her because of delays by manjuu
alpine onyx
looks at stack of Karlsruhe Valentine Mail
manic latch
AAAAGH
alpine onyx
lovely CL
spring briar
*looks at stack of Karlsruhe Valentine Mail*
Hmmmm
Ye
I should get those pr ships
unborn wyvern
That’s actually kinda cool
They also had one for the B-17 iirc the Germans called it the "Flying porcupine"
The B-17 not the training aids lol
fierce sparrow
subtle prawn
tough quail
modern mbts are basically heavy tank weight anyway
the real answer is a lot of it is just marketing bullshit and vague gibberish
manic latch
modern mbts are basically heavy tank weight anyway
I think Abrams reached the weight of IS-7 
tough quail
a T-10M is only like 4 tons more than a T-90M
challenger 2s weigh nearly identical weight to a conqueror too
subtle prawn
manic latch
Leopard will win for the fuel efficiency 
subtle prawn
frigid karma
anglo-japanese alliance back but now with pasta
tough quail
italy here for the catering
subtle prawn
So which one are you betting on to win tea?
spring briar
@tough quail
tough quail
fucking rad
humble mulch
So which one are you betting on to win tea?
Kinda hoping the Abrams does for the memes
manic latch
@humble mulch
humble mulch
shrewd pecan
So which one are you betting on to win tea?
Probably K2 since the entire Poland production line
If not probably second hand abrams
frigid karma
Probably K2 since the entire Poland production line
To be fair to the Abrams, isn’t Poland buying a lot of Abrams too along sun the k2
shrewd pecan
To be fair to the Abrams, isn’t Poland buying a lot of Abrams too along sun the ...
There buying abrams for their units being deployed in more open terrain while K2s going to units in mainly forested areas
you can make a big deal about supply chains tho these units are going to be stationed in completely different parts of Poland to their own dedicated units
spring briar
@manic latch
manic latch
<@688903088819404825>
God I wish that were me
subtle prawn
unborn wyvern
IT'S HAPPENING
tough quail
this is more up its own ass than i expected lawd have mercy
unborn wyvern
"B-2 Spirt, 2!"
unborn wyvern
holy shit
tough quail
american super science
how are they taking so long to show a plane that just looks like a fuckinb B-2
good god this is cringe
is there a guy in the back still shoving the engine in
spiral cedar
2 + 1 = 3 but '2' + '1' = '21'
maiden citrus
I'm not sure what I expected of this channel once that got posted
tough quail
🤔
maiden citrus
but yeah this seems about right
subtle prawn
tough quail
oh they made it white
maiden citrus
smol
unborn wyvern
it's like the Nighthawk demonstrator
frigid karma
noice
subtle prawn
unborn wyvern
she preddy
unborn wyvern
Imagine if as they're showing off the 🅱️lane a another B-21 flies over. that would kick ass
maiden citrus
I mean at least one can salute his willpower
unborn wyvern
What if a B-21 is flying over the ceremony Right now but we can't see it because stealth
tough quail
alright now we're jerking off b-17s thats better
frigid karma
imagine if when they pulled off the curtain there was just nothing, pure stealth
horse piss off
maiden citrus
cuz at least in one respect, I literally do not have the will to watch russia launch stuff to compete with 20 year old us tech and relentlessly shit on it
meaning my will is less powerful
tough quail
i can appreciate jerking off hilarious several hundred+ bomber raids
maiden citrus
imagine if when they pulled off the curtain there was just nothing, pure stealth
we call it
the b-0
subtle prawn
maiden citrus
I am unfortunately not actually watching since I'm at work
frigid karma
we call it
the b-0
the
60 years later all it's did is bomb some middle eastern folks
still that music was sexy as fuck
9/10 presentation, plane did not fly overhead
unborn wyvern
guy who introduced it was a Admiral
Secretary of defense was a Army General
Man they're really just not letting the airforce talk about their own plane
frigid karma
>guy who introduced it was a Admiral
>Secretary of defense was a Army General
M...
they're gonna let dave from accounting in coast guard come in first
strong plank
How is horse malding over this
maiden citrus
it's american
strong plank
what no Pak Da does to a mf
unborn wyvern
"Wasup it's me, Ensign dave USCG represent, Uhh Nice new plane Chairforce fellas, real nice... uhh... wings? okay so here's the USAF leader guy (idk what you guys call him) laters"
frigid karma
we're wanking hornet 
ivory ridge
inb4 he's saying this because the Raider is somehow carrier capable
frigid karma
do you like the plane steve
here's bob from the space force
he's an alien we found yesterday on mars
unborn wyvern
inb4 he's saying this because the Raider is somehow carrier capable
Command and Conquer General's Moment
Here is Former president of the united states
Jimmy carter
frigid karma
the carrier is radar capable
maiden citrus
inb4 he's saying this because the Raider is somehow carrier capable
that'd be pretty wild but it does look not super huge so, maybe?
frigid karma
Here is Former president of the united states
Jimmy carter
isn't that man on his deathbed
strong plank
that'd be pretty wild but it does look not super huge so, maybe?
It’s smaller than the B2…
frigid karma
B2 is a chonkey dorito
maiden citrus
that's why I said it does not look huge
tough quail
oh thats where they got the funny name
i thought it was a downgrade to spirit but in that context, yeah valid
unborn wyvern
oh thats where they got the funny name
ye, iirc the last Doolittle survivor was there to reveal the name when it was announced
frigid karma
then again it can probably bomb anywhere it needs to from poland or japan
strong plank
I can’t watch with audio rn
maiden citrus
you see it was the strategy, ford enterprise carriers these
unborn wyvern
then again it can probably bomb anywhere it needs to from poland or japan
br0 he just said "It doesn't need to be in theater"
frigid karma
that's before he said it
ivory ridge
I love buzzwords I love buzzwords
unborn wyvern
right, sorry, livestreams aren't all synced up
strong plank
I’m at a dinner with an IR prof rn so I can’t use audio
frigid karma
right, sorry, livestreams aren't all synced up
maiden citrus
if I press the fast forward button enough I can get the plane into service
tough quail
why is devries here
unborn wyvern
Man i wish they had Dave from the coastguard he would be hyping up this plane, Lloyd Austin (Bless his soul) is just buzzwords buzzwords. Dave would be like "WE CAN BOMB FROM FLORDIA TO WHEREEVER!! THIS THING'S GOT NUKES! THIS SHIT IS ON FIRREEEEEEEEEEEEE
B-2 Spirt 2 WOOOOOO COASTGUARD REPRESENT"
tough quail
his actual name isnt even nicholas the fuck
frigid karma
only thing i know about devry is that university joke
tough quail
Man i wish they had Dave from the coastguard he would be hyping up this plane, L...
yeah lawd this sounds like an amazon press release
we need someone driving strykers off ramps over it
stone sorrel
Man i wish they had Dave from the coastguard he would be hyping up this plane, L...
glad I'm not the only one that thinks austin is a bore
tough quail
that sure is a username
frigid karma
hornet rn
unborn wyvern
man was airborne if anything He should be hyping up the plane
frigid karma
yep, that's it
unborn wyvern
unborn wyvern
Awe they're putting the plane to sleep 😊
frigid karma
does it have a 2 star or 3 star michelin restaurant in there
and does it do takeout
tough quail
goodnight bomber
unborn wyvern
true, what's the nhtsa safety rating
stone sorrel
or how many olympic sized swimming pools you can fit in it
unborn wyvern
?
frigid karma
or how many olympic sized swimming pools you can fit in it
probably 0
it's not that big
unborn wyvern
how does it compare to a F40PH in gallons of steam per minute generated?
stone sorrel
i guess you have never seen the bit of Bird and Fortune about the QE class CVs
frigid karma
Imagine if a p-63 suddenly showed up at the ceremony
stone sorrel
subtle prawn
strong plank
Look at the tasteful off-white coloring
frigid karma
Look at that subtle off-white coloring. The tasteful thickness of it. Oh, my God. It even has a watermark.
chilly osprey
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
deep apex
On 21st May, 1941 while operating in the Kaso Strait, SE of Crete the British J-class destroyer Juno (F46) was attacked by Italian Cant Z1007bs and hit by three high level bombs. She split in two abaft the bridge and sank in 97 seconds. Casualties were high, 116 presumed killed. Read more at wrecksite: https://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?16011
This is the only photograph in existence of her sinking. It was published in an Italian newspaper.
maiden citrus
lol
tough quail
i too recall being brainwashed by
checks notes
the RAF before every british grand prix
or like every race in italy with the Aeronautica Militare
somber knoll
man sounds like he hasn't gotten his CCTV (the CN TV station not the camera system) dose of the day.
frigid karma
no everyone knows china brainwashes
he's just accusing the us of doing it
what he doesn't know is most americans probably hate the american government more than chinese people do
tough quail
thats just because the US isnt as good at the brainwashing
well usually
top gun maverick was a pretty good shot at it
10/10 was hospitalized after my erection lasted longer than four hours
frigid karma
10/10 was hospitalized after my erection lasted longer than four hours
and what happened after you were hospitalized
glass trail
the nurse helped him out
tough quail
valid trout
desert agate
Brainwashed by the RAAF on Australia day and proud of it
strong plank
those damn Americans and their military brainwashing
unpauses video of PLA parade
tawny harness
I heard the Soviet have a lot of submarines during WW but they didn't use any of them to full extend. Is that true?
frigid karma
I heard the Soviet have a lot of submarines during WW but they didn't use any of...
the soviets did have a lot of submarines
but since the only fleet they could've used them against was the germans in the northern arctic, they saw a decent amount of action but not as much as the other major navies at that time
tawny harness
I think they got trapped in the Black Sea or something like that, the Red Army become the main boy for Stalin anyway
shrewd pecan
I mean it’s not really like the red navy had much to do in a ground centric war
alpine onyx
Could still try to torpedo the small handful of German ships present
And claim victory
shrewd pecan
They did
Russia is a land power who’s few viable ports are easily blockaded by choke points
Despite that the Soviet Baltic fleet did achieve quite a bit
tawny harness
I mean it’s not really like the red navy had much to do in a ground centric war
I don't know, the Brits and French could certainly need some help in the Mediterranean Sea
shrewd pecan
I don't know, the Brits and French could certainly need some help in the Mediter...
The bosphorus straits prevented them from doing anything in the med
Since the Turks wouldn’t of let them pass
Combined with the vulnerability from German and Italian bombers from Greece and the Balkans
Soviet Black Sea fleet already suffered enough losses during the German invasion
alpine onyx
For the Arctic convoys the British were already complaining about having to do most of the escorting themselves, so should rather try to aid their own convoys a bit more before sending them to the Med
Then again, different fleets
shrewd pecan
I don’t want to imagine pre dreadnought trying to rush through the Bosphorus with torpedo and dive bombers going after them
alpine onyx
I'd figure that it'd go about as well as Marat getting hit by an AP bomb, just that it's outside of a port now
tawny harness
Soviet Black Sea fleet already suffered enough losses during the German invasion
Not to included the purge a few years before that
Which kinda kill a but-ton of officers
shrewd pecan
Not to included the purge a few years before that
I don’t think any amount of non purging is going to unfuck old ships going against modern threats in a choke point
I’m not sure on the extent of the effects the purges had on the navy
Tho with the army I still pin more of the blame on the rapid modernization and expansion of the red army over the purges
tawny harness
I don’t think any amount of non purging is going to unfuck old ships going again...
Oh yeah, isn't a lot of Soviet ships come from Russian Empire time?
shrewd pecan
most units were under equipped, missing key pieces of equipment and supplies when the Germans invaded
shrewd pecan
Oh yeah, isn't a lot of Soviet ships come from Russian Empire time?
Only modern elements were essentially the cruiser, destroyer and sub fleets
The Soviet battle fleet was basically grounded in WW1
tawny harness
Damn, that's old
shrewd pecan
they did end up making better cruisers and destroyers than the Germans tho
Not really like that’s a high bar to clear
idk you have two land centric powers clashing
Ones in the middle of army expansion, reforms and modernization
alpine onyx
There were a few issues with officers getting selected based on political qualifications rather than their ability to actually command
shrewd pecan
and the other one just pulled a string of victories and already completed their army reforms
idk I don’t think any army no matter it’s leadership would do well in the middle of massive army reforms and expansion
tawny harness
Ones in the middle of army expansion, reforms and modernization
The Red Army got their pants caught doww, although 1943 from then became better
alpine onyx
And idk, Soviet destroyers are too inconsistent to make a blanket judgement, with how some of them vibrated themselves to death, or broke apart in heavy weather, or had equipment that was there on paper but near unusable in practice
shrewd pecan
Don’t get me wrong Stalin is a blood thirsty maniac who shot himself in the foot plenty of times tho I feel the effect of the purges are still overly blamed over the fact the army was in the middle of transforming itself when the Germans invaded
alpine onyx
Versus the German destroyers that mostly suffered from high demands towards crew qualification in service
subtle prawn
I mean it’s not really like the red navy had much to do in a ground centric war
🤓 moment by me here, but naval infantry
shrewd pecan
🤓 moment by me here, but naval infantry
I guess
tawny harness
Versus the German destroyers that mostly suffered from high demands towards crew...
That is basically everything for the Nazis military, quality for everything. Even Hans toilet paper need to be bullet proof or something like that
alpine onyx
Wouldn't say it had to do with quality, but with overly complicated machinery that needed well trained crew. But then the crews were rapidly swapped between ships or promoted around during the rapid expansion, so often there was insufficient training
tawny harness
Overengineer, yeah, like the Tiger tank
tawny harness
Not the King Tiger though
shrewd pecan
Main issues are Tiger II and panther
alpine onyx
Gud and hard working
Second highest death rate in the KM
I think like 60% death rate compared to the 75% of the uboat arm
Poor smols, just used nonstop until they broke
eternal veldt
could be worse, I guess, like the IJN
virtually annihilated by Sep 1945, though I haven't read up on death rates.
alpine onyx
insert T-25 bonking HMS Charybdis
shrewd pecan
I’m generally surprised the IJN still had a battleship left for the Americans to capture
eternal veldt
Nagato....was in a pretty sorry state at that point anyway
alpine onyx
Well, "battleship"
tawny harness
virtually annihilated by Sep 1945, though I haven't read up on death rates.
To be fair, they are basically done after Midway, 80% of the Kido Butai is basically gone, the rest are just scrubs and retrofit ships. Even new toy like Taihou go out in the worst way that one could imagine.
eternal veldt
bridge bombed out, funnel cut down for better AA
alpine onyx
Pretty cut down by that point
eternal veldt
To be fair, they are basically done after Midway, 80% of the Kido Butai is basic...
Yea, no.
Guadalcanal, Santa Cruz are the real meat grinders.
Then the absolute beatdowns at Philippines Sea and Leyte dug their graves.
Tfw 3 Takaos lost in October and 1 rendered inoperational
alpine onyx
Midway cost them the first and second CV div, but the fifth was still around, as well as most of their CVL divisions
I think only Shouhou and the flat deck were gone at that point?
eternal veldt
Even after Guadalcanal and Santa Cruz, they still have a chance to fight back, thus the whole emphasis on Operation A-Go and more :B:antai Kessen
Then came the Philippines Sea that basically deleted the whole 2 years of effort and sending their newest flat top to the bottom 
One that was rushed into service, mind, since Taihou already had training accidents prior to sortieing from Tawi Tawi, something rarely heard of on IJN carriers.
tawny harness
Then the absolute beatdowns at Philippines Sea and Leyte dug their graves.
I still don't considered Leyte Gulf as something significant compared to Midway here because that battle is more like America flex their dick size
alpine onyx
Midway is one of the more overblown engagements
eternal veldt
Was Midway a decisive victory in stopping the Kido Butai? Yes.
tawny harness
I don't know, a lot of historian said the Kido Butai is basically the biggest dogs in the war and that battle robbed Japan's right hand there.
eternal veldt
DId it render the IJN as a whole as an impotent navy? No.
Savo Island was a good demonstration of what happens when you have severe miscommunication, and perhaps, complacency
and incomptence
alpine onyx
It was the end of two of their main carrier divisions, but it wasn't some war changer like it's made out to be
eternal veldt
And Sirene pointed out already, the 5th CarDiv is still there
alpine onyx
Midway wasn't gonna be taken any time soon, so the Japanese goal couldn't be achieved, question is more what they loose and when
eternal veldt
which was subsequently renamed as the 1st CarDiv, and did some work at Santa Cruz which I mentioned.
Yes, Santa Cruz was technically a strategic victory for the US, but also viewed as a tactical defeat, since Hornet was sunk and Enterprise was damaged. Thus the whole "Enterprise vs Japan" thing.
and Sara Maru is busy being Sara Maru, of course
eternal veldt
tfw Zui was almost lost in a typhoon initially at launch
tawny harness
That's weird, every American I met and their mother all stated that Midway is the 'game over' moment for Japan
eternal veldt
Tfw zui also trapped people in due to darkness in construction and killed a couple
tawny harness
alpine onyx
Midway is very symbolic
tawny harness
The rest are just mopping stuff up
tawny harness
While Mac Arthur began his island jumping campaign
eternal veldt
oh lord, not McCunter again
Mr. Mac"I cannot be reached, Philippines will not be invaded, my ego is so big that I will leave Dutch PoWs to die" Arthur
tawny harness
oh lord, not McCunter again
Yes, the same Mac 'fuck containment task, let's push the Korean to China's border, they certainly won't do anything' Arthur. American navy's spirit animal there, either him or Chester W. Nimitz
eternal veldt
That's weird, every American I met and their mother all stated that Midway is th...
No, Nimitz is actually competent
MacArthur, I don't agree.
tawny harness
No, Nimitz is actually competent
But MacArthur got all the glory
Because everyone loved the Marines
eternal veldt
Because he is a media whore.
alpine onyx
By the time Midway happened, the Essex vendor machine was already running and the US was about to shit out a dozen fleet carriers
eternal veldt
Two Ocean Navy Act, baby
I'll let Jaba answer this thing, a lot more well researched than I am.
tawny harness
By the time Midway happened, the Essex vendor machine was already running and th...
I think Essex is the REAL combat aircraft carrier with proper armors and all that stuff, all the carriers that came before it are basically temporary toys that the US produced to fill in the navy
eternal veldt
Nope. The Yorktowns are fairly decent carriers for their tonnage limitations.
alpine onyx
They are decent
tawny harness
Because he is a media whore.
You won't see any other naval move beside Midway while the Pacific Front, from Iwo Jima to Okinawa have like 50 different movies
eternal veldt
Wasp was a one-off, unarmoured carrier that spent the remaining tonnage given to the US, and had one major innovation
the deck edge elevator
alpine onyx
But even if the worst was to come, all they'd have to achieve is stall the IJN until the industry gets rolling
eternal veldt
or just beat the Japanese industry to submission
spiral cedar
That's weird, every American I met and their mother all stated that Midway is th...
When you look at how the battle was actually viewed by the USN and the US public at the time, it was recognized as a victory, but just one in a line of victories and defeats in those early months. US morale would hit a low ebb just a few months later amidst the Guadalcanal campaign, and the orthodox view of Midway as the “turning point” of the war wasn’t really until after the war, especially after interviewing IJN officers who could blame the defeat on one big battle whose IJN commanders were all already dead, rather than a series of failed campaigns plus a fundamentally broken war strategy
tawny harness
or just beat the Japanese industry to submission
That's the goal for every war nowadays, I think?
eternal veldt
It certainly hampered the Japanese war effort greatly, albeit not sufficient to bring it into surrendering unconditionally
(and by surrendering conditionally, they mean "we keep our shit, continue our war crimes, you stay the fuck out of our conquered territory")
tawny harness
It certainly hampered the Japanese war effort greatly, albeit not sufficient to ...
Bringing Japan to the table of surrender in the first place is already a difficult task. Those guys only gave up when they realized the Red Army invaded Manchuria and basically cut off their final supplies zone
eternal veldt
Coral Sea was also pretty important in the annals of the Pacific Naval War, largely recognized as a morale booster and checking the Japanese advance in the Pacific.
Especially after the disasters at Java Sea.
eternal veldt
Bringing Japan to the table of surrender in the first place is already a difficu...
Sorry, but no.
It was a combined effort by both the US nukes, and the Soviet declaration of war that brought Japan to heel.
Read this pinned message by jaba, which presents the situation of Japan in Aug 1945 fairly well.
maiden citrus
yeah, the manchuria thing is a myth
eternal veldt
This also applies to "just nuike some random city/offshore target as a show of force" and "one nuke is enough" myth
or, if you're in that crowd, "Hiroshima was a civilian target, not military"
tawny harness
yeah, the manchuria thing is a myth
The only reason I know that information because it seems that implied by David Glantz in his Operation August Storm book
To be fair, my knowledge on the Pacific Front is much more limited then my knowldege on the Eastern Front, which I spent an entire class to learn about that
eternal veldt
tfw you brainwash the population enough to make a high school girl to stab any US soldier she sees with a shank
tawny harness
Is that Okinawa stuff?
eternal veldt
No, Operation Downfall
Which, really, according to books like Hell to Pay, is just basically atrocities left, right and centre.
spiral cedar
Glantz is certainly the expert in his field, especially at the operational level, but he isn’t really the foremost scholar in the end of the Pacific War—it’s simply not his main focus. Frank, Giangreco, Asada, Bix, and even Hasegawa are better simply because they’re more specialized on the specific topic
As for August Storm, it really has to be put into context of the Japanese surrender process, which is best described here:
The Japanese expected a Soviet invasion of Manchuria, and prepared defensive plans, which entailed the use of pre-arranged “redoubts” in Manchuria leading down to Korea, where the mountains would nullify the Soviet mobility advantage and where the Japanese skill in entrenching and infiltration would have maximal effect. Thus the forces in Manchuria would stage a fighting withdrawal once war began, and pull back to the pre-arranged redoubts, giving ground to avoid becoming decisively engaged and allowing the Soviet advance to expend its offensive punch and outrun its logistical tethers before miring it in an extended, Okinawa-like campaign
tawny harness
Interesting, I was reading about August Storm from this book
https://www.amazon.com/Soviet-Strategic-Offensive-Manchuria-1945-ebook/dp/B000Q66JCG/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
spiral cedar
This was, by and large, actually achieved by the Japanese, aside from some minor units being forced to fight in one instance. The Japanese defensive plan was, for the most part, going as intended
What intervened was not a battlefield breakthrough, but a political one
The surrender of Japan
This, unsurprisingly, took the fight out of the Japanese defenders, and the operation changed from a military to an administrative advance
But the Soviet historiography tends to conveniently leave out that the Japanese forces were, by and large, still intact and withdrawing in good order when the surrender was announced, and instead present the POW statistics as if they were the results of a military, rather than political, coup
The much-praised airborne offensives, for example, were in tiny numbers and only effective because the Japanese were already going to surrender, and just needed someone to turn their weapons over to
tawny harness
What intervened was not a battlefield breakthrough, but a political one
Well, Stalin did make promise during Yalta Conference.
And the entire operation lasted only for a week or so anyway so this is certainly Bagration or Warsaw liberation for sure
spiral cedar
So the timeline flatly does not work to argue that battlefield victories in Manchuria induced a Japanese surrender. The Japanese surrender was what produced the victory
tawny harness
So the timeline flatly does not work to argue that battlefield victories in Manc...
Isn't half of the general staffs like Tojo still want to fight even after the nuke dropped?
eternal veldt
Tojo was removed from power by that point.
spiral cedar
The one part that did contribute to the Japanese decision to surrender was the declaration of war a month earlier than the Japanese leadership expected—they expected September, but Stalin launched a month early because he didn’t trust the Western allies to actually give him his promised occupation zones in Manchuria and the Kuriles if he didn’t have Red Army troops already on the group there—hence the invasion of Manchuria and the (horribly botched) landings on Sakhalin. It was a political move—since “Red Army soldiers had died on this soil,” it could not be stripped away by postwar maneuverings or penstrokes—rather than a military operation to fundamentally break the Japanese strategy to continue the war, which was centered on the Home Islands exclusively and was already nearly complete.
By declaring war, Stalin removed the possibility of the USSR as a neutral broker for a conditional peace deal—always a delusion on the part of Japan, as Stalin did not wish to broker such a deal and the Satō delegation never received the authority to actually negotiate acceptable surrender terms—but it did, in the end, pull back the wool covering some of the eyes in the Imperial cabinet. August Storm’s actual military success or failure was pretty much irrelevant.
This should not, of course, be taken to mean that the Soviet declaration of war would have sufficed to end the war without the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. For one, the declaration of war was already anticipated, and a defense plan in response was worked out and implemented—thus it cannot have been an unexpected, decisive “shock” in isolation from the nuclear bombs capable of ending the political deadlock in Tokyo. And two, the timing (a month early) only occurred because of the Hiroshima bombing—thus it is pretty disingenuous to try to extract the one ‘shocking’ aspect (the early timing of the war declaration) divorced from its dependence on the bombing of Hiroshima
Perhaps most importantly, the Japanese plan for continuing the war did not rely on holding Manchuria—holding Korea for a bit longer to ship more food over to Japan was ideal, but the Japanese leadership was not going to surrender if some peasants starved without that food—they already considered 20 million “casualties” (some Japanese records say deaths) an acceptable price to pay to force the Allies to a negotiated peace
What broke the Japanese plan to continue the war was the twin nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, spaced closely in time
Hiroshima alone would not have sufficed—Japan had its own nuclear weapon program (the Ni-Go project) and its scientists were no less intelligent than the American, British, German, etc. nuclear scientists elsewhere. They understood the math, and the physics—and had, like the Germans, come to the inevitable conclusion that the industrial capability to mine and enrich sufficient uranium to make a singular nuclear bomb would mean fewer than one per year could be produced, and only at great cost. But one nuke a year can’t win a war—the thousand-bomber raids had certainly shown that flattening a city a week with conventional bombs was already possible, and would not end a war alone.
Even the US, with its vast industries, could not mass produce uranium fission bombs in sufficient quantity to change the strategic situation
Hiroshima demonstrated the US had a nuclear weapon, and (just as importantly) the willingness to use it
Nagasaki demonstrated that the US had them in quantity
For Fat Man was a plutonium bomb, and those could be mass produced, being of a far more efficient design
The US was expecting to be able to produce 2 such bombs a month by the end of 1945
That is war-changing
frigid karma
Also some random PoW told them for shits and giggles the Us had like 200 such bombs
Why the Japanese trusted some random dude in a prison camp idk
spiral cedar
The Japanese nuclear scientists were consulted prior to and during the surrender discussions, so the impact of the rapid sequence of nuclear weapons (2 just 3 days apart) was known to the Japanese leadership
In a sense, it was a bit of a bluff—the US did not have any more immediately in stockpile, and would have to wait until another month to get more
But production was about to ramp up, so in the long term it was a credible threat
And, of course, even then, the first surrender discussion had a divided (most sources say tied, though it’s unlikely they ever had a formal “vote” to actually determine this) cabinet, which was what opened the possibility for Hirohito to be asked to give his “tiebreaking” decision. So it was hardly an “over-determined” process; take away any one of the three (Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Soviet entry) and you may well get no surrender at all. And in particular, the Soviet entry is the most likely of the three to be removable without changing the outcome, as it does not fundamentally strike Japan’s war continuation strategy on the Home Islands
The nuclear bombs do—since with them, the US could avoid invading altogether, and simply bomb Japan into nonexistence
Even after surrender was agreed upon, within just a few days it seemed the agreement was about to fall apart, and it took a second (and rarely mentioned) cabinet conference to finally get the major players all on board with unconditional surrender
And this is still separate from the attempted coup later on
frigid karma
supposing surrender was denied, how well would the Japanese defenses against the ussr held if the ussr attempted a downfall with us dropping nukes maybe once a month on Japanese positions
spiral cedar
Really hard to speculate; both the Japanese and Soviets were a month short on their supply stockpiles as it was historically, which is part of why Soviet mobile formations drove forward and then just ran out of gas
tawny harness
The US was expecting to be able to produce 2 such bombs a month by the end of 19...
Wasn't there a debate on whether US could actually product more bombs in such notice from some historians?
spiral cedar
2 a month is the official projection
Obviously war’s end curtailed that production rate
But the US did probably have the industrial capacity to do so, now that it knew the design worked
tawny harness
Wouldn't it be more efficent to continue to fire bombing campaign anyway? Japan was pretty fucked at that point
spiral cedar
http://www.dannen.com/decision/bomb-rate.html Some figures went even higher
tawny harness
even before the nuke
spiral cedar
Wouldn't it be more efficent to continue to fire bombing campaign anyway? Japan ...
Firebombing could really only affect major cities
The Joint Chiefs of Staff planned to use the nukes as tactical weapons if the strategic effects on cities failed to cause a surrender
aka, keep firebombing the remaining cities, but now nuke the ground units
tawny harness
Interesting
spiral cedar
9 were planned to be used initially for the invasion of Kyushu
frigid karma
Even if you were a diehard fanatic
Seeing an entire division get wiped out in one millisecond
Might cause a rout
spiral cedar
About 3 per landing beach, in a triangular pattern
frigid karma
Yeah that’s interesting food for thought
The only time we’ve seen nukes in action were against nonmilitary targets
spiral cedar
Also that Allied troops would have to push through the radiation zones
spiral cedar
The only time we’ve seen nukes in action were against nonmilitary targets
Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were home to military bases and war industries, so not entirely true
But yes, the majority of the victims were civilians
tawny harness
I think there were some rumor that Churchill was planned to ask Truman to use the bomb on the Red Army because the guy planned to turn on the USSR right after the war end. Truman said that is a really bad idea and refuse to go along with that shit.
spiral cedar
Truman had little direct input in the use of the nuclear bombs
Roosevelt had done most of the prep work before dying
Truman’s contribution was mostly just standing back and letting the plans execute, minus his intervention on Stimson’s request to strike Kyoto from thr target list
His other contribution was to halt further bombings after Nagasaki to gauge a Japanese response
maiden citrus
Wasn't there a debate on whether US could actually product more bombs in such no...
by the end of the month it was estimated one could be made roughly every 2 weeks or so as a safe bet, likely even faster as time went on (this is from internal documents)
maiden citrus
I think there were some rumor that Churchill was planned to ask Truman to use th...
operation unthinkable is the name for this one
spiral cedar
Churchill was out of office by war’s end anyway
maiden citrus
didn't go forward for various reasons such as those
frigid karma
Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were home to military bases and war industries, so n...
No like
tawny harness
Churchill was out of office by war’s end anyway
Everyone like him in the war, nobody like him after that till the Larbor party fucked Britian up again with more canned foods.
tawny harness
operation unthinkable is the name for this one
Oh yeah, that is the name. Churchill was a little .... uhhh, foward in his thinking compared to everyone else
frigid karma
Churchill is also kind of a cunt
spiral cedar
I believe there’s an anecdote about a British voter watching Churchill give a public appearance and declare that he’s exhausted, and deserves a break—which is exactly what they gave him
frigid karma
Someone put it the best: “he didn’t win the war, the soldiers, sailors and airmen won the war, and when they came back they voted him out”
maiden citrus
But I meant no nukes were used in a field of battle
true, they prevented the field of battle, hehe
frigid karma
I want a thermonuclear battle