history

[desert agate]

we arent allowed to discuss that conflict here

[jagged monolith]

No, I mean they're saying their CPS will be quite capable of hitting seaborne targets.

Of course in the, say, mid 30s.

[chilly osprey]

What was the original question about the P-15?

[manic latch]

Refit Anshan with P-15 Copies vs NJ

[desert agate]

what's their max firing range

[autumn sorrel]

Sorry, my point is that weapon often get overblown so other can justify sinking more money into R&D

[jagged monolith]

This is the US's HGV, and it's quite a beast!

They basically crammed an IRBM into a ship and stuck an HGV on top of it. Very cool and very lethal.

[desert agate]

the US can and will and should be putting funding into more, and better weapons systems to counter its first peer opponent since the 1980s

[chilly osprey]

Depends on the version, but, for the most widely used models, 40 km

[manic latch]

M variant is 80km ye

Anshans likely used 40km

In AL that is

SY-4 variant of China has turbojet. With less KG explosive. I think that one was +100km

[desert agate]

Chinese weapons systems, while often mocked and jeered by Western teenagers with unsupervised access to the internet, are not in fact dogshit

they have a system within which they are designed to work in

[jagged monolith]

Even if they were, relying on that is hubris.

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/clap-gif-25211694

Finally

[chilly osprey]

M variant only appears in the 1970s, but I'm not sure how far it actually proliferated versus the earlier versions

[jagged monolith]

Underestimating the Enemy is a quick path to defeat.

[desert agate]

its when people try to put those systems into a context which they were not designed for that they are seen as failures

Chinese A2/AD doctrine remains effective and efficient

it still needs development

it is a long way from its peak

but it is good

[autumn sorrel]

Well, they got the doctrine correct, the question is that do they have the capability to back it up.

[desert agate]

China wont be at its peak in A2/AD for at least 20 maybe 30 years however

the biggest weakness remains detection, tracking and targeting

[jagged monolith]

If they start today they get rolled by US Sats.

[autumn sorrel]

Provide that American let them have those time

[manic latch]

They surely got the 250 ish billion of $ to support their military projects

[desert agate]

within which there are 4 methods of achieving
OTHR
Satellite
Drone
manned aircraft recon

[jagged monolith]

They need to start launching lots and lots of things into Space today if they want to win.

[desert agate]

incorrect

satellites have significant limitations as tracking tools and are effectively worthless for targeting

they have their place

[jagged monolith]

Ahhahahahahsa

[desert agate]

but they need to work within the other 3 systems

[jagged monolith]

Say that to the Eye of God the Americans have up there

[manic latch]

Wot

[jagged monolith]

They track Tor launches.

Day in, day out.

[manic latch]

Why are you ignoring the shitload of AWACS around the borders

[autumn sorrel]

Compare to American? You are taking their entire budget on the A2/AD. We don’t even know how much of those getting invest into what and how much lost through corruption alone.

[jagged monolith]

No, their IR sats track fucking Tor.

Probably smaller.

They can't get precise reads, certainly nowhere near good enough for intercept, but the track alone is more than enough.

[desert agate]

problem with satellite targeting is atmospheric refraction which makes targeting very difficult

tracking is easier so long as you have a constant feed

but targeting much less so

[jagged monolith]

Then there's what they want to develop for left of launch.

[desert agate]

satellites also have issues with even detecting something in the first place, cloud cover, task force formation and sea state all impact satellite detection capabilities

[jagged monolith]

Which is
1: Insanity
2: Likely not technologically feasible
3: If they do it somehow expect target #1 to be the US IR sats

[desert agate]

again, satellites have their place within the whole network

but are not the be all end all

[jagged monolith]

They have the biggest barrier of entry.

Enough said.

[desert agate]

perhaps less correct than you realise

at least for the Chinese

[jagged monolith]

I would have believed you two weeks ago when I didn't know about the network that tracked every missile launch everywhere at once.

Now? I think Left of Launch might just be feasible, if the Americans put enough money into it.

[desert agate]

knowing where a missile got fired from is useless if the ship that fired it is long gone before you can get eyes on the area

[jagged monolith]

The Eyes are everywhere.

[autumn sorrel]

I am with spon on this one, ship can travel really fast and the sea is a large space to comb through

[jagged monolith]

Is it?

Is it, when you turn a dozen Hubbles towards Earth?

[desert agate]

Over the Horizon radar remains the best system for detection and tracking
it is as a system highly effective at finding targets at long ranges and maintaining a track on them
China began its investment in OTHR in the mid 2000s, it previously used older Soviet systems which were inefficient, shorter ranges and less accurate, and have mostly been disposed of
China's indigenously developed OTHR network currently exists in the South of the country consisting of a number of sets, mainly for testing purposes at present
It was inspired to develop its own network after warming relations with Australia gave Chinese officials access to some of their own OTHR sites in the far North of the country
This Australian network, known as JORN was developed in the 1960s, by the mid 70s the experimental radar at Alice Springs could detect any aircraft taking off from Changi Airport in Singapore (a distance of over 4000km) and, be able to identify its type, altitude and heading

The Chinese network according to all estimates is at present not quite at this level of accuracy, however the Chinese are making rapid progress, this does still however place them behind the standard of a system from the 70s, which today through continuous development is among the best of its kind anywhere in the world, but the point stands regardless, over the horizon radar remains the best system to detecting and tracking a naval task force within an area that wants to be controlled by a nation (say for example, the South China Sea)

The primary limitations of OTHR are thus
firstly ionospheric fluctuations make the system a poor, if not worthless provider of targeting data, and needs to be supplemented with other systems once it has found a target
secondly it is immobile and inflexible, the systems are therefore prime targets for attack, be it conventional or sabotage, and require billions of dollars and countless man hours to establish and develop, they cannot be simply a blueprint system for mass production due to the sheer scale and intensity of their development

it is thus that drones come into the picture of Chinese doctrine

drones are exceptional platforms for providing targeting data, however they have some limitations, recon drones are at present quite slow, and while long ranged also quite vulnerable, except at extreme altitudes, meaning that they can hypothetically take too long to reach an enemy contact, and by the time they can provide targeting data, the task force has completed its objective and is departing the area

satellites can provide targeting data, however as it stands, Chinas satellite force is woefully inadequate, currently being unable to provide a constant picture of the first island chain or beyond (Chinas primary engagement zone), China is working to remedy this however it will still take some years before Chinas satellite network can fulfil its requirements, and even still, has limitations that require the input of OTHR or drones, especially in poor weather or other conditions, even once atmospheric refraction is accounted for

manned aircraft can fill a gap, they can be faster than drones, and more reliable, however they remain vulnerable to interception and engagement making them poor fits for purpose, however they remain useful in certain conditions, and will remain so

in order to complete the Chinese dream of A2/AD in the first island chain, China needs to fix 3 problems, all of which it is working towards
it needs to expand its investment into OTHR and thus increase its number of systems, their accuracy and their range
it needs to expand its drone reconnaissance capability
it needs to gain a constant satellite picture of the areas within which China needs to see and potentially engage opponents, the First Island Chain and the Pacific out to Guam

even so, there are still limitations with their system, and with determination a single one of these links in the vital information chain could be cut by an adversary, or even nullified through changing the area of engagement (China has a vested interest in the Malacca strait for example, where OTHR coverage will be limited at longer distances beyond), and while China holds the advantage of being able to pick and choose where it decides to fight and how it decides to fight there, geography remains a limiting factor and the US is developing counters to these systems which the Chinese are developing

[autumn sorrel]

Well, I learn a lot of new things today. Thanks, Spon!

[manic latch]

Tengden TB-001

[autumn sorrel]

Is that an advertisement or an operational system?

[desert agate]

slow and with a max altitude of only 30'000ft

barely useful against an American task force

what China needs is an MQ-4

or the capabilities of it

[autumn sorrel]

Isn’t chip manufacturing still the bottleneck of Chinese military system?

[desert agate]

30 hour endurance (officially, theyve been known to go longer), and a 56'000ft service ceiling making them nearly invulnerable, being able to track at high altitude and long range, avoiding interception just enough to provide a constant track, hopefully

chinese microprocessors remain well behind the west, there's ways to work around it but it does very well limit chinas overall capabilities

currently though the tech for Chinas A2/AD dream exists in China, at least on paper

[autumn sorrel]

So they won’t be develop anything on par with what they need on paper anytime soon then.

[desert agate]

they just need to put it together in effect

they need some further developments but they sort of have what they need

[manic latch]

Yeah give them 20 years

[chilly osprey]

Something, something, this is why the time period to worry about is 2035-45, not 2027...

[autumn sorrel]

Didn’t American intel said Chinese is 10 yrs behind but Russian is like 20 yrs?

[chilly osprey]

It's hard to make those kinds of sweeping statements

[manic latch]

Wats in 2027

[desert agate]

i'd trust the Americans on Russian intel assessments but not on the Chinese

intel is a very difficult thing to assess

[autumn sorrel]

Xi supposed date of reunification or something along those line.

[desert agate]

the only reason the Americans know is because they know absolutely everything that happens in Russia

[chilly osprey]

There are areas that China is ahead of Russia in, and others where that's not the case.

Likewise, the degree to which China falls behind the US in technology varies heavily once you start looking at specifics.

There are technologies that they're on par with or ahead of the US on, and others where they fall decades behind.

[desert agate]

the Americans really know as much about the Russian military as the senior brass does, if not more

[autumn sorrel]

Also I believe people think 2027 is the time to worry bc it will be the time USN retire so many of their combat vessel without replacements on hand

[desert agate]

the Americans know exactly when they depart, and what the patrol routes are of Russian nuclear submarines

so ill trust their assessments on Russia

not on China

[chilly osprey]

A lot of people hype that as the period China will try to take Taiwan, because, from the American perspective, it's roughly the nadir of their strength in the Pacific

[desert agate]

a lot of people moan about this but it's a good thing for the USN

[manic latch]

Makes sense. But will China have the necessary tools in that time. I doubt Type 004 will be around on that time too

[chilly osprey]

This 2027 date, however, entirely ignores the perspective of what the PRC thinks they actually need to take Taiwan

[desert agate]

the USN needs a downsizing because at present its so large it cannot maintain its ageing fleet

some USN dockyards have a backlog of 10 years for vital maintenance

[chilly osprey]

They won't, that's why their concept for when they can pull off a Taiwanese invasion is years beyond that date.

[desert agate]

they need to get rid of their oldest and least capable assets instead of hobbling along with what theyve got

[autumn sorrel]

Well, I somewhat doubt it when what they propose instead are more LCS.

[desert agate]

LCS program has been cancelled

well and truly

[manic latch]

But if their focus is getting more ships in navy through certain year. Isn't it normal they keep the old alive

[autumn sorrel]

Thanks god for that small mercy then!

[desert agate]

it is to be replaced by the Constellation class

[chilly osprey]

Not exactly cancelled, so much as they're going to retire a bunch of them and use the ones useable for tasks like patrol and MCM

And now they have an actual frigate program, too

[manic latch]

https://news.usni.org/2022/03/29/all-freedom-littoral-combat-ships-in-commission-tapped-for-early-disposal

[desert agate]

the USN previously was in a state where it could build and build because it just could
now its in a state where maintenance costs are killing them and they need to prune off older vessels so they can acquire actual new combatants

[manic latch]

Despair

[desert agate]

good

Freedom class never should have left the drawing board

in spite of its issues the Independence class remains the better option and the USN never should have built 2 classes to do the same thing

[manic latch]

I never expected USN would suffer budget problems ngl

[desert agate]

[chilly osprey]

When you consider the scope of their operations, the fact they have issues with budget isn't surprising

[autumn sorrel]

They have been on the decline since the end of cold war, nobody left to fight and all you get to do is shoot at pirate

[manic latch]

"The promise behind the VDS was to give the Navy more tools to find the more sophisticated Russian submarines that have been entering service in the last several years."

[autumn sorrel]

Not until now that is

[chilly osprey]

Well, the navy has had to spend plenty of time getting caught up in Middle East shenanigans

[desert agate]

problem is they cant get their ships in for major refits that they desperately need, so they have to keep on doing bodge jobs which increasingly kick the can down the road until the problem becomes so titanic that suddenly most of the fleet needs an overhaul but all of your drydocks are full

again, 10 year backlogs on some yards

[chilly osprey]

Half the reason the carrier fleet is run down as it is is because of CENTCOM screaming to always have a CSG in region to do strikes

[manic latch]

[autumn sorrel]

Well, that one way to say it

[desert agate]

the USNs current operational priorities are

1. fix the backlog on ship refits by any means necessary
2. grow its capability to match an increasingly challenging and capable opponent

in order to do this it needs to downsize

and then regrow

[manic latch]

Quantity over quality

Wait

Otherwise

[chilly osprey]

Other way around

[manic latch]

Quality over quantity

[autumn sorrel]

Wrong country

[chilly osprey]

I mean, it's also a case of needing to ditch old hulls that should have already been replaced.

But there were multiple procurement programs that went off the rails or were cancelled in the 2000s

[desert agate]

DDG-1000

my beloathed

[chilly osprey]

The Tico's are getting to be obsolescent ships, for example, even outside of their reliability issues caused by their age.

[autumn sorrel]

Well, they ditch the OHP and try LCS concept, now they are backtracking to something essentially a modern OHP

[chilly osprey]

Well, LCS effort basically killed the frigate placement effort

[desert agate]

OHP was old and needed replacement

[chilly osprey]

Thanks, Rumsfeld

[desert agate]

just that its replacement was well... shit

FFGX will be a good platform however

[chilly osprey]

OHP should have been replaced by a frigate, OSD told the navy that it needed the LCS as a cheap 'does everything' ship.

[manic latch]

she almost made Artillery great again

[chilly osprey]

Zumwalt's cancellation at least made a lot more sense, since most of the reason the navy moved away from it was the recognition that with the rise of China, they needed more air defense ships (i.e. restart Burke production) than they did Sprucan replacements for ASW.

[autumn sorrel]

And they got a ship so fragile it hull literally breaking apart, so lightly arm that you might as well use a patrol boat instead

[desert agate]

LCS armament isnt really the issue

but there were QC issues

[chilly osprey]

57mm is low energy

[desert agate]

undefined is typing

[manic latch]

57mm is butthurt about 76mm not the first time funny enough

The Turya class is a derivative of the Shershen-class torpedo boat. A hydroplane was added forward to increase speed. These boats can operate at 40 knots at sea state 4 and 35 knots at sea state 5. A heavier twin 57 mm gun was added aft in response to NATO fast attack craft being fitted with the 76 mm OTO Melara gun. The boats are fitted with a helicopter type dipping sonar aft. The 533mm (21 inch) torpedo tubes can fire either anti-ship or anti-submarine torpedoes.

[desert agate]

im no fan of the independence class but it wasnt that bad in theory

[tough quail]

at least they looked kinda cool

[desert agate]

yeh

[chilly osprey]

Trying to match a 76mm with 57mm guns in the anti-surface role.

I'll take bad ideas for 500, please

[manic latch]

[desert agate]

i wanna see USS Canberra (LCS-30) sail in formation with HMAS Canberra (L02)

after that scrap the whole class

[chilly osprey]

So they can both break down in the same photo?

[desert agate]

of LCS' leave L02 alone

[manic latch]

Speaking of breaking down

[desert agate]

they fixed the bigger problems

[manic latch]

Kuznetsov refit is delayed to 2024

[desert agate]

thats a little optimistic of them

[autumn sorrel]

Well, we all know it was shit ship from the beginning anyway

[manic latch]

"From the beginning'

Why man

[desert agate]

oh god

please do not

[strong plank]

Russia wasn’t the Pentagon’s primary concern. They were keeping an eye on them sure, but after Afghanistan the Pentagon was trying to finally pivot over towards looking at Asia

[autumn sorrel]

Let me phrase it again, it was intimidating when it come out then when the accident constantly happen and it start becoming a joke

[manic latch]

Ok that's more logical

She lost her Soviet funding

Her sister is happy at least

[glass trail]

that gun looks wonky

[manic latch]

[desert agate]

Kutz is just a weary old ship thats a fair bit past her use by date

[autumn sorrel]

The indian one?

[manic latch]

Which one

[glass trail]

like giving a maus turret to a panzer ii

[manic latch]

That's a Kiev class. Chinese is Type 001

[strong plank]

Kuznetsov also got fucked by the whole soviet breakup iirc

[desert agate]

Liaoning

[glass trail]

the big one in the back

looks a little oversized for that ship

[autumn sorrel]

The fact Russian kept the poor girl around just to save face say something about them

[desert agate]

i mean

[chilly osprey]

It's not so mucb to save face so much as it is to preserve a naval aviation capability

[autumn sorrel]

Well, at least the chinese was the competent one in that story

[unborn wyvern]

What military corruption does to a mfer

[chilly osprey]

With no carrier, you can't train pilots in landing or takeoff at sea

[desert agate]

if she was well maintained and had a very expensive and extensive rebuild to make her more in line with her Chinese counterpart she would be fine... ish

[desert agate]

Britain moment

[chilly osprey]

And you also have other military branches arguing that without your carrier you don't need your aircraft

[manic latch]

Tfw when Military corruption = losing your naval infrastructure and %50 of your nation's economy?

[chilly osprey]

Also, yes, Britain is an excellent example of why you don't give away your aircraft as a navy, or drop your carriers otherwise.

[desert agate]

mfw i lose all of my carrier operation experience because i decide to not have carriers for a few years

mfw i now struggle to rebuild the experience that took nearly a century to establish

[chilly osprey]

They should have just kept the Harriers going and used them on the QE's while they transitioned to F-35B

[autumn sorrel]

How much CV did the Brit gave away again, I lost count

[strong plank]

All of em

[desert agate]

scrapping Ark Royal was probably the biggest mistake they could have made

[strong plank]

For a while

[desert agate]

yes the ship was old

but it maintained that capability core

[chilly osprey]

Nah, I'd say agreeing to the joint Harrier force was the critical blow

[desert agate]

rebuilding it was unnecessarily expensive and complicated

mmmm i disagree on that point

[chilly osprey]

Since that started the process by which the RAF ditched the Harrier, the Invincible's got scrapped because no planes, and how we got to no fixed wing aviation around to use on the QE's when they entered service.

[desert agate]

but its too late at night to seriously debate

[autumn sorrel]

Well, the Brit let the French Navy one up them on this with the De Gaulle

[chilly osprey]

It's kind of a meme that they can deploy only 8 strike aircraft of their own on one of their CVs

[manic latch]

Imagine Japan had Kuznetsov. Using F-35s etc

[desert agate]

could be worse

could be Japan

operating USMC F-35s off Kaga

from the same squadron that sunk Kaga in WW2

[unborn wyvern]

No?

[chilly osprey]

[autumn sorrel]

The Irony

[desert agate]

verified Japan moment

[tough quail]

at least they actually got to build their funny CVLs

unlike korea

[strong plank]

Soon™️

[desert agate]

oh god horse you'll bring him back

[tough quail]

im infinitely amused that iirc it got canned in like

half a year

[desert agate]

ash is asleep talk shit about korea

[autumn sorrel]

Well Korean can’t let Japan win the dick measuring contest

[unborn wyvern]

Countries have gained, lost then regained careier capabilites. Russia could operate multiple CBGs if they actually spent monies on the military and not mansions

[desert agate]

wow who could have predicted that

(i predicted it)

[tough quail]

the k2pl looks cooler than the regular k2

[desert agate]

(everyone predicted it)

[manic latch]

Corruption does hurt yes. But Kuznetsov was devastated from collapse of Soviet economy and funding of navy plus losing Naval infrastructure of Black Sea Shipyard (the place Kuznetsov was build)

[spiral cedar]

Helps to have 2 and a half times the population and not sharing a land border with some of the largest land armies on Earth

[tough quail]

i mean i knew it was gonna get cancelled im just amazed they did it so fast

[autumn sorrel]

Japan have Kongo and Korean have to respond by building Emperor Sejong

[desert agate]

korean funny DDGs are cool asf tho

mad respect for that

[tough quail]

did australia ever order the giga ifv from korea

that things rad

[strong plank]

I mean do spend money on their navy

[desert agate]

selection process is ongoing

[strong plank]

have you seen the yachts

[desert agate]

theres uh

some big problems

with both

Redback is objectively better

[tough quail]

shame

[desert agate]

but wont fit on our landing craft

[chilly osprey]

I mean, credit where it's due, at least the Koreans buy sufficient stocks of SM-2MR

[manic latch]

@tough quail Fuck you

[autumn sorrel]

Do they have money, that’s the question

[tough quail]

what the fuck

[strong plank]

Good question

[desert agate]

but neither will the Rheinmetall offering

[chilly osprey]

Whereas Japan...

[unborn wyvern]

That's true. Most of the soviet navy was built in Ukraine and once they left Russia lost access to those shipyards. And uhh probably shouldn't go into this because of [Current event]

[tough quail]

as far as im aware the russian navy is still decently funded

it just goes to submarines

[strong plank]

The leopard turret on the back kills me

[unborn wyvern]

Always has

[tough quail]

because they have literally no reason to touch carriers at all

[manic latch]

Belgorod mommy

[desert agate]

i discussed the problems with the LAND400 program elsewhere and cannot be assed to repeat myself at 3am

but basically

[tough quail]

kuznetsov's ongoing refit is pretty much just an ego project like most CVs outside of china and the us

[desert agate]

can an island nation boy be with a modern and capable amphibiously deployed IFV girl?

[autumn sorrel]

Russian bomb all ship engine factory, inadvertently fuck themselves bc they don’t have the capability to rebuild those engines for their new shiny frigate

[desert agate]

(no)

[unborn wyvern]

Soviet submarines have always been prioritized. They know they couldn't beat the USN in a 1v1 but if they can sink an entire CBG with a handful of submarines then they don't need to build a CBG of their own

[desert agate]

ADF realising that all of the worlds amphibiously deployed IFVs arent much better than the M113s we already have and wanting a world class system and having a dummy spit that it cant have its cake and eat it too

[manic latch]

1. do stay away from current conflict please

2. They will test the Russian made Gas Turbine unit on Third ship of Gorshkov class which will be on trials soon

[junior trench]

Ok, but they can't even do that. Especially because Soviet doctrine isn't shaped towards that

[unborn wyvern]

I played Cold Waters and watched Hunt for Red October, that makes me an expert in submarines right?

[autumn sorrel]

Sorry

[tough quail]

return to aerogavin

[autumn sorrel]

Somewhat

[unborn wyvern]

Lol I joke.

[junior trench]

Soviet SSNs existed to stop USN SSNs from busting into the bastions and slaughtering the SSBNs like foxes in a henhouse.

[desert agate]

it is the only way

[strong plank]

The more I think about it, I should really try to do some reading on the Australian military

[desert agate]

do it

[autumn sorrel]

Didn’t Russian still use USET-80, the one without wire guidance torp

[unborn wyvern]

Ah.

[desert agate]

ADF is cool and funny and really dumb at times

[strong plank]

bc they’re kinda in a similar situation to the US’ when you think about it

[junior trench]

Bathroom break helicopter forest fire

[desert agate]

man really needed to piss

[shrewd pecan]

if it’s Australian it usually looks better than the same thing elsewhere tbh

[strong plank]

the whole “having to cross an ocean to get to the conflict” situation

[desert agate]

(unfortunately he never got to piss)

[tough quail]

the land itself forced him not to piss

[junior trench]

This clearly shows that the NH90 requires a piss tube

[unborn wyvern]

Australia is just Canada with a better procurement system

[junior trench]

Smh

[shrewd pecan]

to this day I wonder how the hell the euros screwed up the NH-90 so badly

[desert agate]

firefighting capability

[tough quail]

i have a better procurement system than canada

that bar is subterranean

[junior trench]

Everyone but like, France and Germany are dumping NH90

[desert agate]

thats more of an insult to canada than its a compliment to australia

have you seen our procurement?

[strong plank]

says they will never adopt the F35
adopts F35 anyway

[junior trench]

And those two are only keeping it because they have the majority of the factories

[desert agate]

it's not nice

[manic latch]

Gripen:

[tough quail]

i mean i dont think anyone in the world atm has uh

[shrewd pecan]

like the things just started getting delivered then everyone starts dumping them

[desert agate]

I HATE AUKUS I HATE AUKUS

[tough quail]

"good procurement"

[desert agate]

delivered years too late and the things dont even work

[shrewd pecan]

Aussie nuke subs they won’t get for a decade

[desert agate]

a decade is a little optmistic

[tough quail]

besides poland, and that comes with the caveat that the milisecond there is a peace treaty in ukraine their economy is going to go nuclear

[desert agate]

minimum 15 years

[unborn wyvern]

I know I'm Canadian

[desert agate]

more likely 20+

[tough quail]

and all those K2s are going to get dumped into a landfill

[manic latch]

Will France sell weapons to Australia after this

[shrewd pecan]

I mean there locally producing the K-2s and basically replacing their entire tank fleet

[tough quail]

they do not have the money for it

at all

[unborn wyvern]

We bought a modified armored car to be used as an MRAP for the war in Afghanistan. It was delivered to the troops in 2016

We left Afghanistan in 2014

[shrewd pecan]

the T-72s and leopard 2s are being fully phased out

[manic latch]

Doesn't Poland use EU money for military?

[desert agate]

that implies Australia will go back to France for weapons given that everything we bought from them is absolute trash

[tough quail]

anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together can tell you poland isn't going to be able to maintain the army they want

[desert agate]

sorry france

but yeah

the Taipans and Tigers

[manic latch]

Don't let Rich see this

[desert agate]

really werent good

[tough quail]

i dont think richy cares about helicopters

[chilly osprey]

moral of the story, don't buy military helicopters Airbus is involved in

[tough quail]

france's interesting stuff is... pretty much everything but those

[desert agate]

the submarines could have been cool

[shrewd pecan]

regarding the Polish budget

[desert agate]

but in the end nuclear was always the right direction

[shrewd pecan]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/376838/poland-budget-balance-in-relation-to-gdp/

[desert agate]

just took us a while to figure it out that hey maybe China might do things

[shrewd pecan]

doesn’t really seem like there in a bad place

Especially considering everyone else is spending into their deficits like crazy

their GDP to debt ratio is only 53% rn

[strong plank]

My understanding of the Australia-France sub situation is that
-the aussies wanted a proven, non-nuclear design
-France offered a design based on their nuclear subs
-the changes from nuclear to non-nuclear caused costs to rise and slowed the project down

[junior trench]

France kept fucking with the offset and workshare

[desert agate]

"we will buy submarines to participate in our current operations enforcing peace and stability in south east asia in lack of a peer opponent"
"oh fuck now we have a peer opponent time to pretend we dont have one"
"oh fuck we cant pretend anymore and now its too late to do anything time to cancel it and start again"

[tough quail]

i would have doubts of germany pulling off the wet and wild uber procurement program poland has going on

with 6x the gdp

[desert agate]

and yes the French were bad sellers

you cannot treat a customer like that and expect them to not leave

[junior trench]

Imagine getting Darth Vader'd by the French in your deal multiple times and sticking with it for that long anyway

[shrewd pecan]

Polands Uber procurement doesn’t really seem the worse considering the situation that’s near their border right now and their governments low debt

[junior trench]

France:

[manic latch]

Say why China ain't doing it to %3 like US?

[shrewd pecan]

depends on how you rate Chinese military spending

[junior trench]

Because China fudges their numbers

[manic latch]

[desert agate]

i think for the most part it was a case of deciding that we didnt have any other options

until we decided

oh yeah nuclear

[junior trench]

More than 1.9% is spent on military assets for domestic suppression

[shrewd pecan]

Chinese budget usually excludes things other nations count for national defense

[junior trench]

Combined it exceeds 3%

And even then it's still fudged

[shrewd pecan]

Combined with conversions for purchasing power/wages

[chilly osprey]

Chinese GDP data as a whole is also really, uh, questionable.

So it's hard to measure spending as a % of that and compare it to other countries

[desert agate]

China has lower labour costs which makes their actual spending about half of the US' when accounting for that

[junior trench]

Also the population might be off by as much one whole USA at the high end

So it's just a whole bucket of what the fuck

[strong plank]

Aukus is probably gonna be rough but there’s a hope within the US that we can try and interest Australia in acquiring some more of our stuff

[junior trench]

Regal

[strong plank]

I think the B21’s the one people talk about the most

[junior trench]

AUKUS is basically just a codification of the norm

To some degree

[manic latch]

B-21 can be export?

[desert agate]

ive discussed before RAAF is probably not buying B-21

[shrewd pecan]

I don’t think B-21s being sold to Australia

Think it’s just being based there

[desert agate]

the US is open to selling the B-21 to Australia

theyve said as much

but RAAF has no need

[strong plank]

That’s the B2

[shrewd pecan]

tho I’m not sure what’s happening to the entire Australian nuke free zone thing

[junior trench]

That's an NZ thing

[shrewd pecan]

No

Australia has one as well

[desert agate]

so uh

its complicated

basically

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear-weapon-free_zone

[desert agate]

we dont let nuclear powered ships into port

[strong plank]

1/3 the US’ B2 fleet is in Australia right now which is pretty much all of the operational B2s

[desert agate]

we let them sit out of port tho

[unborn wyvern]

If you have a hour...

https://youtu.be/mH5TlcMo_m4

[desert agate]

and we also dont check American aircraft to see if theyre carrying nukes

[unborn wyvern]

Or two

[desert agate]

we just kind of

ask nicely "do you have nukes"

they then wink at us and say "we can neither confirm nor deny"

[strong plank]

I probably phrased it poorly, but there’s talk in the US about seeing if Australia would be interested in long-range bombers

[desert agate]

and we all go on our merry way

[unborn wyvern]

"The law requires that I answer no"
: 🇺🇸

[desert agate]

short answer is no

[strong plank]

but it sounds like they’re not interested

I mean fair enough

[desert agate]

the US said that if Australia wanted to buy B-21 they would sell them to us

but again theres no requirement

[shrewd pecan]

not really sure what Australia would do with B-21s beyond using them as missile trucks

[manic latch]

[desert agate]

RAAF needs to expand its anti-shipping capability

which is currently at its lowest point in decades

and that basically just needs upgrading our F-35s

[manic latch]

Ain't they very scary for China tho

[shrewd pecan]

honestly at that point you might as well just offer Australia hypersonics

[desert agate]

offer?

tato

we're developing them with the US

[shrewd pecan]

I forgot about that

[desert agate]

the US is testing them at Maralinga

[junior trench]

And B-21 loaded up with LRASMs striking ships at beyond F-35 range wouldn't ever possibly be part of that?

[shrewd pecan]

Guessing the nuke boats are gonna have similar configuration to the hypersonic equipped Virginia’s

[desert agate]

whole reason we're keeping the super hornets around currently is because our block 5 F-35s aren't compatible with LRASM or JSM and so we've ordered another squadron of F-35s of a higher block that will be compatible

[desert agate]

i mean possibly but imo it would be overkill given what a squadron of F-35s can do with some LRASMs or JSMs

and since we already have the upgraded F-35s ordered

[manic latch]

If f35 is enough. Why build B-21

[desert agate]

and we plan to upgrade the block 5s too

[strong plank]

Different mission set

[desert agate]

I cant see B-21 being overly necessary for RAAF requirements at present

[junior trench]

Range and off axis strike

[strong plank]

B-21’s a dedicated strategic bomber

[desert agate]

range is an argument but im not sure if its one that RAAF decides is important enough to justify a new airframe type

[desert agate]

it is not

[junior trench]

At the edge of an F-35 squadron's range for such a mission a pair of B-21s could fly opposite dog legs and deliver off axis attacks from two directions

[ivory ridge]

Perun my beloved

[manic latch]

Man they canceled the wingman drones of B-21

[desert agate]

one of the big things with B-21 is that it is a multi-role bomber capable of carrying AShMs and other weapons systems not compatible with B-2

[unborn wyvern]

Opposite Laserpig

[desert agate]

B-21 isnt a B-2 replacement it's a B-2, B-1 and B-52 replacement

and more

[junior trench]

It's more like the first modern bomber that acknowledges that raw dumb bomb payload doesn't matter a ton so they can cut size and weight and expand the PGM integration

While having strategic range

Which opens the door for really funny shit

[strong plank]

I’m more addressing kremlin’s question

[unborn wyvern]

B-58 HUSTLER 2 (wait that was just the B1)

[strong plank]

F35’s capable but you can’t send it on intercontinental bombing missions

[manic latch]

[strong plank]

I mean you could if you put the work into it but like, why

[desert agate]

we do have a well developed a2a refueling capability that can extend the range but I do understand where you're coming from
however the infrastructure costs of upgrading our Northern bases, and operating and maintaining another airframe type may not be what RAAF is willing to take on given manpower constraints and the other areas of defence being focussed on for expansion and upgrade

[junior trench]

A2A refueling against the PLA is certainly something you shouldn't be relying on if you're also going to claim that Chinese weapon performance claims need to be taken seriously

[desert agate]

ADF wants to expand by 20'000 personnel within 3 years
at present they're looking at undershooting that by 19'000 or so

[strong plank]

I’d imagine part of why the US would offer the B21 to Australia is to avoid another B2 situation

[manic latch]

B21 is much cheaper than B-2 ain't she

[strong plank]

if more are being made then you can lower costs

[desert agate]

long ranged strikes against a naval task force North of New Guinea would be reasonably protected from any kind of interception

[strong plank]

That’s the plan

[manic latch]

If you are replacing the B-1 and 52 with it then its gotta be lol

[desert agate]

since the defence of Northern Australia is the focal point of Australian anti-shipping warfare I'm not sure we'd need B-21s under those circumstances, if ADF decides to be more ambitious and decide we should be touching targets further afield than we currently consider required, then B-21 would be better suited than A2A refuelled F-35s

but again, infrastructure, manpower, maintenance

im not sure where we'd be able to fit the B-21s in the far north

Darwin is a really bad air base hence why theres not much based there

[manic latch]

Why not build better one

[junior trench]

Sounds like another reason the extra range is useful

You wouldn't need to place them far north to begin with

[desert agate]

Tindal is already being massively expanded and whether the base can or should take on more aircraft is a question that RAAF would need to answer

and that leaves uh... the 3 bare bases

one of which would need to be then permanently activated

further manpower and infrastructure costs abound

[manic latch]

big fan of Northrop Grumman so hope Aus buys the B-21s

[shrewd pecan]

I mean if your really worried about losing the missile count capability of the B-52 (which is still serving until 2050) all you really have to do is convert a 747 into a missile carrier

[desert agate]

that would increase response times by hours if we're intercepting task forces

[manic latch]

But I was talking about a new air base

[shrewd pecan]

o for Australia

Manpower and budget

[manic latch]

Ok cancel the shitty base

Build the better one

Fixed

[desert agate]

maybe defence should stop abusing personnel we'd have better retention

we have 3 perfectly good bare bases

but theyre bare for a reason

maintaining a permanent presence on them is expensive

[manic latch]

Spiders

[desert agate]

the idea is that they are fully stocked bases with no units so in wartime we can rapidly redeploy the RAAF to these bases

since in wartime budgetary concerns and isolation are far less of an issue

and also unlike Tindal all 3 are coastal asf

anyway heres some planes flying over RAAF Curtin

[strong plank]

I think I’ve seen that pic

[desert agate]

only RAAF Scherger is viable for B-21s imo because it wouldnt have to share an airfield with a civilian airport but it's also in Far North Queensland which offers other more tropical challenges

[strong plank]

thinktank I was interning at was thinking of using it or a similar picture for the cover of one of their reports

[desert agate]

it's been a pretty popular pic since it was taken earlier this year

[strong plank]

Dunno if the report’s out yet

[desert agate]

mfw my multi billion dollar bombers get fucked up by a cyclone

oop sorry guys its typhoon season

no flying now

[strong plank]

B2 refueling pics go hard

Yeah I don’t think the report is out yet

neither are the 2 that I helped with

Pacific war one and the pentomic one

[desert agate]

anyway

fuck me ive been up too late again

redbull fuelled shift it will have to be

[manic latch]

Omg it's the character from War Thunder

[shrewd pecan]

yeah its the thing I will dump 3 mavericks at in WT, watch them all miss then watch the walleye actually hit the target

[manic latch]

@tough quail Greek defense company Soukos Robots presents the Minotaur Armored Anti Drone system.

This was a Soviet BTR-60

[tight violet]

"triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up."
are they? what is the historical experience with them vs a 2 bladed

[tough quail]

jesus fuck thats just a bad movie prop

[spiral cedar]

They are not

There are old manuscripts talking about how to deal with them

They are harder to stitch up, sure, especially if you haven't seen them before

But they can be stitched up

[strong plank]

I've never seen something so aggressively early 2000s

[glass trail]

this is horrendous

[spiral cedar]

https://youtu.be/LKUBiTjFhBM

[tough quail]

here in Greece we gave this btr cancer

[spring briar]

Stop complaining

Greece is based

We simply cannot grasp the breadth of their wisdom in military design

[cinder escarp]

So based they manufacture all new leopard hulls and turrets

METKA took over in ~2006

(The first batch of Leo 2HELs had cracked turret shells, but those were made in Germany - the last shells for either hull or turret made in Germany. Them being cracked sped up the process of transitioning production to Greece.)

Unlike some contractors license building Leo 2 hulls/turrets, Metka has done a solid job.

[tough quail]

Hilarious

[shrewd pecan]

Greece with the only active MBT production line in Europe

[jagged monolith]

There's friends, and then there's family.

AUCANZUKUS is family and I would go so far as to say that the US has no allies it trusts more completely than these, and for good reason.

[manic latch]

Yau can zuk deez nus

[jagged monolith]

Their preparations aren't even close to allowing any kind of invasion by this date.

[spiral cedar]

https://youtu.be/89i3lZp5JYY

[spiral cedar]

https://j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/anabuki/anabuki.htm

[spiral cedar]

The conclusion seems inescapable that the members of the Flying Tigers were civilian contractor employees. Though "volunteers" they were not responsible to any commander in the Chinese Air Force. As such, when they engaged in combatant activities they did so contrary to international law. They were not entitled to prisoner of war status if captured and any acts of death or destruction committed by them could properly be considered criminal acts.

[lament bronze]

What was the most well known squadron of Enterprise?

Or if Enterprise got any sort of ace pilots over the course of the pacific theater?

[spiral cedar]

The most well-known squadrons are, strictly speaking, the squadrons present aboard her at the Battle of Midway, simply because of the (disproportionate) attention given to the battle and its participants in the historical and popular literature. So VF-6, VB-6, VS-6, and VT-6. Certainly, with aviators like Kleiss (in VS-6), Best (in VB-6), and Gaido (in VS-6), the attention is warranted. Aside from the Midway squadrons, VF-10 (the “Grim Reapers”) is probably the most famous Enterprise squadron, home to famed aces Vejtasa, Feightner, and Kirkwood (though Kirkwood’s most famous exploits were done from CV-11 Intrepid).

It should be remembered that squadrons were regularly shuffled between carriers in USN practice, and eventually squadron designations became completely detached from the carriers they operated from (to confuse enemy intelligence efforts). For example, VF-3 (featuring O’Hare and Thach) was redesignated as VF-6 in 1943, and the former VF-6 was redesignated as VF-3 (causing an argument over which squadron would keep the “Felix the Cat” logo)—so be careful when trying to trace back famous squadrons to their designations through the years!

For some lists to start off further research, here are two links:

A list of Enterprise's air groups
http://www.cv6.org/company/airgroups.htm

A list of US Navy aces
http://acepilots.com/usn_aces.html

[manic latch]

https://eurasiantimes.com/european-six-gen-fighter-jet-fcas-set-to-move-to-the-next/

[lament bronze]

So it would be safe to say the VF-10 Grim Reapers would be Enterprise’s most recognised squadron then?

[spiral cedar]

In terms of fighter squadrons, yeah probably

[lament bronze]

Alright, thanks!

[ivory ridge]

eurasian times

Lol, lmao

Vertical lunch

Yummy

[manic latch]

Weeb vs Furry

[manic latch]

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/france-germany-spain-agree-next-phase-fighter-jet-development-source-2022-11-18/

Happy now?

[ivory ridge]

I was just laughing at the site

Meanwhile
https://twitter.com/CiroNappi6/status/1593926834244182017?t=AMSaklZ8uWXSMZQcqQqNSA&s=19

Ciro Nappi (@CiroNappi6)

Japan, Britain and Italy are expected to reach a formal agreement in December to develop a next sixth generation fighter jet that will be used by the Air Self-Defense Force, Japanese government sources said. 🇯🇵🇮🇹🇬🇧
https://t.co/UrzFegTGBq.

Likes

130

Twitter · Nov 19, 2022, 11:19 AM

[manic latch]

Tempest is much better name than NGAD and FCAS

[manic latch]

Kizilelma with its Soviet Ivchenko-Progress AI-25TLT Turbofan

Tho last variant won't use Soviet engines but Turkish engines

[desert agate]

Eurasian times steals thumbnails from youtubers

They're a bit of a joke

[celest fractal]

How good was the M26 Pershing?

[jagged monolith]

Eurasian times is lorf

[fierce sparrow]

It was an Okay -ish tank

[tough quail]

it's fairly good as long as you ignore any claims it's a heavy tank

[glass trail]

better than the sherman at least

[fierce sparrow]

M26s went to Korea... errrrrr

[delicate beacon]

Korea was not the terrain for the M26.

[delicate beacon]

So about the M26 vs M4.
The M26 can be more or less considered a big M4 with a few caveats:

• The M4 has been longer in production, so it's much cheaper, much more readily available, more technicians and tankers trained etc. etc.
• The M26 was overkill. There weren't many situations that necessitated the 90mm or good front protection and stuff. The Sherman, especially after the 76mm, sufficed for most situations where no other solution could be found.
• The M4 was exactly what it was for a reason. Logistics. Going above it meant losing out on the sweet spot of crane and bridge lift limitations. It's much harder to deploy anything heavier.

[manic latch]

Boring

M26 is just superior

Tho, you can put M26 turret on M4

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

Times have changed

[manic latch]

Indeed they have

[spring briar]

But the love in our hearts hasn’t

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

(Imagine strasbourg here)

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

[ivory ridge]

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/navalgroup/status/1592558831128973313

Naval Group (@navalgroup)

[#TechTuesday] ⚓️💡 The FDI frigate is equipped with the Panoramic Sensors and Intelligence Module (PSIM). It has unique technological components:
🧭Central Operation (CO)
📡@thalesgroup Sea Fire radar
🎯Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system
💾Datacenter

Likes

108

Twitter · Nov 15, 2022, 4:43 PM

[frigid karma]

What about the version with 30 panther plates glued on

[humble mulch]

Didn't they use them as Panthers in the battle for the buldge movie? Let it be what it wants it to be

[tribal mortar]

How did New Jersey got sink

[frigid karma]

She found out Ryan was cheating on her with New york

[tribal mortar]

Bro what

[spiral cedar]

New Jersey is a museum ship today

https://www.battleshipnewjersey.org/education/

They have a well known YouTube channel as well

https://youtu.be/aMLjIDRLciM

Of the US battleships in AL, none were sunk in combat outside of Pearl Harbor. Arizona was lost at Pearl, and Oklahoma foundered under tow in a storm while on the way back to California after being refloated. Nevada was sunk as a target ship after nuclear tests in Operation Crossroads

[spring briar]

[delicate beacon]

Almost 16k words and 99 pages.
Elp

[unborn wyvern]

Fun fact, Oklahoma and Nevada have the same voice actress as Kirishima from arpeggio further proving my shipgirl multiverse theory

It's all connected maaan

[delicate beacon]

*quietly shoves you down a channel during your speech*

[strong plank]

she... didn't?

[silent oxide]

she got it installed while she was being built

[tribal mortar]

did the spanish flu happen during world war 1

[spiral cedar]

Yes

Began in early 1918

WWI fighting did not end until late 1918

[sonic coral]

Spanish flu really picked up in 1919

[silver crest]

i learned that some of the oldest american civil war veterans lived to see the nukes being dropped

from cannons on a battlefield to weapons that can decimate an entire city in an instant

quite a big leap in less than a hundred years

[wise pumice]

The last union army veteran died in ‘56

the last civil war veteran that saw combat died in ‘53.

[solid mango]

Santa Fe go wee

[solid mango]

Mobile and an SBD

[eternal veldt]

The naval front isn't that far off either; We went from literal wooden walls firing solid round balls to iron-hulled warships firing explosive shells within a span of 40 years, and to ships with nuclear propulsion in just about a century. The wonders of invention.

[eternal veldt]

*violent vomiting not pictured. *

[valid trout]

imagine the cooks in the mess pictures food just flying across the room

[eternal veldt]

They'd likely be braced and locked down - hopefully.

Otherwise, at least for carriers, you're neck deep in shit with pitching and rolling like this.

Planes crashing into each other and setting things aflame - as had happened with Halsey's CVLs during Cobra.

39 degree rolls are just

[spring briar]

freeboard is important

[eternal veldt]

Stability also.

The Fourth Fleet and Tomozuru Incidents, as much the IJN was shitted upon it, were blessings in disguise.

Made them realize what problems the fuckbuckets and mogamemes had and partially fix them before war broke out.

Won't save them from the US onslaught regardless.

[valid trout]

fuckbuckets?

i can assume that mogamemes = Mogami class cruisers

[spring briar]

ofc

[eternal veldt]

Fubuki

[valid trout]

;-;

[eternal veldt]

The worst offenders are more the Hatsuharus, but not as easy to make a silly name.

[valid trout]

i'll leave you to make up the names for the ships

what about the takao class tho-?

iirc they also had a weight problem

[spring briar]

idk silver
I feel like it is kind of poetic that while their armor was ass, the early french CL's and CA's in the 20's absolutely fucked in terms of seakeeping

[valid trout]

they were also top heavy

[eternal veldt]

It's all Die-joubu

Takao and Atago had the entire top platforms razed and simplified for weight saving, alongside aviation modifications.

Maya and Choukai didn't have time to do so, but Maya was badly damaged enough in 1943 to outright turn the ship into an AA cruiser and at least get the quad torps Takao and Atago received.

[valid trout]

and maya had her 3rd turret removed and had that space turned into an aa platform

[spring briar]

[eternal veldt]

Fucked as in good?

[spring briar]

yes

as in
they fucked

not get fucked

[eternal veldt]

Kudos to the French then. Shame Dunk got dunked at seakeeping.

Something something new bow something something Toulon

[spring briar]

her nose was very narrow
kind of like the KGV's

[eternal veldt]

KGVs were quite wet IIRC

Hence the whole issue with Vanguard's flare

Most photos at sea IIRC had the entire deck in front of the first breakwater usually drenched.

[spring briar]

issue?

[valid trout]

what happened here?

[spring briar]

wave

[eternal veldt]

The raised bow meant that Vanguard cannot fire directly ahead

And that raised a lot of eyebrows

[spring briar]

oh
oh no
what will we do

[valid trout]

isnt that a problem with the iowa's as well?

[eternal veldt]

But, good seakeeping, Iowa can get fucked 😎

[spring briar]

it really isn't a problem

[valid trout]

what does that mean

[spring briar]

Iowa's are shit at seakeeping

[valid trout]

oh ok

[eternal veldt]

Iowa struggled in heavy seas during an exercise IIRC whereas Vanguard was just ok

[spring briar]

basically their bow is so thin, it will just cut deeply into the water every time the ship passes over a wave top

[eternal veldt]

It's just very no

[spring briar]

same issue on dunk and the kgv's

[eternal veldt]

Submarine mode

And god forbid you try to fire the guns

Either you have a Renown at Lofoten moment of water literally coming in every time you open the breech/instantly turned into steam

[spring briar]

[eternal veldt]

Or Littorio at Sirte moment where the entire barrel just explodes due to water pressure

[valid trout]

its a free bath, except the water is salty

[spring briar]

free bath but it also adds tons of weight on a bow that is trying to move upwards, basically bending that shit to its limit

which was an issue on dunkek

[eternal veldt]

It's generally hazardous

Yea, Dunk got bent once due to heavy waves

[spring briar]

sacrifice for that efficiency

[eternal veldt]

Just not the front fell off level bad like the IJN

[valid trout]

which ships did that happen to?

[eternal veldt]

A fubuki as I memed earlier, forgot if it's Yugiri

Also for a couple Hatsuharus IIRC

Ryuujou's entire bridge section just got crushed and caved in

[valid trout]

[spring briar]

[eternal veldt]

Again, very no

[spring briar]

I wonder what the yield stress of this steel they used is

cause it seems really fucking low

[eternal veldt]

Shitty welding was partially to blame if I recall.

[spring briar]

that's an issue causing the bow to fall off

but seeing your steel plates bend like that is also concerning

[eternal veldt]

Probably lightweight being an issue?

Forgot if it's aluminium or not.

[spring briar]

[eternal veldt]

Not DS on top of my head.

[spring briar]

couldn't be

that was only used later by Britain first iirc

[eternal veldt]

DS went onto Taihou and capital ship's decks per memory.

[spring briar]

well taihou's a pretty new ship compared to the bukis?

[eternal veldt]

Much newer and for different purposes of course.

[manic latch]

☃️

[spring briar]

anchor

and kutuzov

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

yeah dunno
there isn't a lot said about steel in shipbuilding other than the rare paragraph in a book

[eternal veldt]

Warship 2011 has an article on Tomozuru

But I'm not home yet, that should answer most of the issues

[manic latch]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/11/20/chinas-new-submarine-launched-missiles-capable-reaching-us-waters/

[white lion]

Looks like a fucking ace combat sub

[spring briar]

like do you guys have any idea what HSLA steel is

and why it is used instead of carbon steel for ships

[valid trout]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-strength_low-alloy_steel

[spring briar]

why did you just send me the wiki page for HSLA steel

[white lion]

Because he now knows what it is

Aren’t you proud?

[delicate beacon]

As long as they dont use mobyldeen to cheat

[spring briar]

[dapper parcel]

Tbf buckling is more of structural design problem rather than material strength problem

[alpine onyx]

Not just Iowa, Massachusetts had her own troubles in the Atlantic when she hit rougher seas (sea state 5 or 6 me thinks?), resulting in one turret and 40% of the secondaries being out of action

[spring briar]

not if you can actually see a dent on each individual plate like you'd see from side hulls after a mine explosion

[dapper parcel]

stringers buckling creating slack in plates?
Afaik there's no yield outside of the weld or weld-affected area, which is expected

[spring briar]

looking at the plates themselves, you can see them being plastically deformed with the structural steel around it being seemingly intact

which sorta tells me the yield strength is kinda eh

[dapper parcel]

the structure is not intact, which was one of the problem identified
It's all of them being way too lightly/sparsely built

[spring briar]

oh so both are fucked

[dapper parcel]

I mean, if you view them being too thin leads to yield problem then sure.... it was

[spring briar]

I would forgive the plates being of a lower YS steel than the structure for sure

and they are DD's

kind of hard to judge without context

[dapper parcel]

It's kinda a handwave if you blame structural problem on the material
If you know you got inferior material, then design with it in mind. To design it with what you want it to be is simply bad design

[spring briar]

hard to judge without context
can't really say the structure is badly designed from that one picture
which I'm only using to point out the plates being low YS

like what did they actually do?
Just weld plates together without a support in the middle?

[alpine onyx]

looks at Houshou's deck getting torn off

[spring briar]

[dapper parcel]

Who'd thought overoptimizing your structure leads them to suboptimal strength when loaded in unintended directions

this is for the hull, but you got the idea

[spring briar]

https://tenor.com/view/kyoko-kyouko-toshino-toshinou-yuru-gif-26492694

mf should've just
you know
increased the amidships thickness a bit

and then
thinned the ends a bit

[ivory ridge]

[spring briar]

make the ENTIRE ship out of maraging steel

(yes it will be very heavy)

[dapper parcel]

Shit's very weird tbh
They went to such length lightening the hull, saving 66 tons, but ends up needing to add 84 tons of ballast anyway because the hull is too light

[spring briar]

[delicate beacon]

The more I read about WW2 the worse my opinion of the US becomes.

[spring briar]

that's like Maka with the royal navy

[delicate beacon]

I mean, the RN is filled with doofuses too

The Altmark incident quite inadvertendly impacted the defence of the Dutch Indies.

And then the Brits fucking attempt to bomb German ships in Dutch-EI waters

[spring briar]

[ivory ridge]

skill issue

[manic latch]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/dassault-aviation-head-cautions-that-fcas-warplane-deal-is-not-done-yet-2022-11-21/

ah Dassault

[spring briar]

Dassault is great

[alpine onyx]

The more I read on WW2 botes, the more of the respect I lost for German botes returns

Just in different shapes and forms

[spring briar]

your love for the German ships has not left this world
it is still inside of your heart
and is reborn in the form of new love

let the pain flow away

[glass trail]

water is REALLY heavy

[spring briar]

water is relatively dense compared to ships because ships are mostly air

[glass trail]

theres just more water in one place than there is ship

[strong plank]

This ship is made of ship

[sonic coral]

Ships are made of metal dumbass

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/466250908682944522/934086371444920351/883110007703486517.gif

[manic latch]

Explain sail ships

[tough quail]

liberal owned by facts and wood

[unborn wyvern]

So long as it's buoyant you can make a ship out of whatever your heart desires

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1594760537316933643

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1944, USS Sealion (SS-315) torpedoed IJN Kongō, becoming the first and only U.S. submarine to sink an enemy battleship. During the same attack, Sealion also fired a salvo that missed the battleship Nagato but hit and sank the destroyer Urakaze.

Twitter · Nov 21, 2022, 6:31 PM

[unborn wyvern]

Bingo bango bongo rip Kongō

[manic latch]

[sonic coral]

Sail ships were made up by lizard people to get you to buy wood

[spring briar]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yPITJ5wDH_0

Finally

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/low-intelligence-specimen-aarav-cat-gato-not-perro-gif-25462194

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

F22 fans explaining why their paper assumption stats are superior to J-20's paper assumption stats

[frigid karma]

china does not have a very successful history of its own avionics systems lol

[spring briar]

Krem unironically comparing J-20 to F-22

[ivory ridge]

J-20 fans explaining why a plane that barely exists is better than one that existed for over 20 years and had years of training and exercises on it

[frigid karma]

kremlin

before you start huffing every single piece of copium the CCP has ever posted

i would like to direct you to this post by an actual former member of Chinese MIC

https://pincong.rocks/article/id-49691

google translate will do a sufficient job

[manic latch]

Sorry Qwerty but your EU tag prevents your non biased view on F-22 as well

[ivory ridge]

he's literally chinese

[maiden citrus]

-NP tag

[manic latch]

Hey people know my bias

I Think

[frigid karma]

BRO MY DAD LITERALLY WORKS IN THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT

[spring briar]

https://tenor.com/view/goobis-manul-cat-suspicious-sus-gif-26515901

[frigid karma]

AND THE ONLY THING HE HAS EVER TOLD ME ABOUT HIS TIME THERE IS HOW FUCKING CORRUPT ANYTHING IS

[manic latch]

[frigid karma]

i am not fucking kidding with you right here

[maiden citrus]

as we have seen in many circles, is easy to make vehicle that does not the exist actually better than one with data!

[frigid karma]

i have been very very transparent with me being chinese and my dad working at the ccp before

[ivory ridge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frrKHHarQZk

[strong plank]

Impressive, very nice, now let's see the J20's RCS

[frigid karma]

ehh, i wouldn't shit on j20 for that

iirc there was some flaws with that article's methodology

it's still not up to par with actual 5th gen rcs tho

[cinder escarp]

It is very hard to discuss the merits of this debate without breaching the rules on politics and such.

[manic latch]

Like don't get me wrong I ain't calling F-22 bad. But best thing it proved itself other than bombing missions was trainings and military saying its good

[frigid karma]

kremlin, you can stan the chinese air force when they accomplish anything besides kamikazing itself into american planes

[strong plank]

ehhh

[spring briar]

Pancake

[frigid karma]

[strong plank]

I'd argue successful deterrence is a measure of success as well

[spring briar]

Krem
Calling F-22 anything other than “the best” is copium

[frigid karma]

the assfucking the j20 will face going up against an f22 is going to make the opium wars seem like a fair fight

they'll be calling it the 'copium wars'

[manic latch]

Ok explain me this

Why do we call F22 best? Budget? Military saying? Etc.

[maiden citrus]

performance

[spring briar]

Literally stealth, manoeuvrability and ew

[manic latch]

So trainings?

[cinder escarp]

From a technical perspective J-20 is ahead of F-22 in a few regards. I'll only discuss technical matters because the anti-politics rules are serious here, and I try to be a stickler for rules.

[spring briar]

The J-20 is also a very different aircraft

[frigid karma]

there's a reason why the US refuses to export any F-22s

[spring briar]

More of a missile truck

[cinder escarp]

F-22 has no HMD, and it has no thrust-vectoring dogfighting missile.

It has absolutely no sensors but the radar.

[manic latch]

This always weird me out

[strong plank]

my guy

[cinder escarp]

It's because it's a late '80s design fundamentally and the thinking was radar uber alles.

[strong plank]

if the F-22's dogfighting you've already fucked up

[maiden citrus]

stealth NP tag is here

[manic latch]

Amogus

[spring briar]

This is why I look forward to the 6th gen

[strong plank]

the F-22's design philosophy comes from a series of air force studies that found that in vietnam-war engagements, the aircraft that spotted the enemy and attacked first tended to win

[spring briar]

Cus they’ll fuck everything in every category

[manic latch]

Ain't J-20 also blocked for exports?

[strong plank]

hence an aircraft that focuses on stealth and BVR

versus

"muh thrust vectoring will let me backflip over enemy jets"

[frigid karma]

your ass is also blocked from export outside your house but i doubt that means it's good

[spring briar]

I mean the F22 can do this

[manic latch]

But F22 has that

[spring briar]

[frigid karma]

thrust vectoring is a party trick for air shows

[manic latch]

F35 doesn't have Thrust vectoring. F22 does

[cinder escarp]

The F-22 wasn't exported for reasons that have zero to do with performance, but of course I can't go into further details.

[frigid karma]

if you try to do that ala top gun you can get a missile to the cranium

[spring briar]

Cool but it still has it

[cinder escarp]

The thrust vectoring on '22 is indeed pretty useless due to the way it is implemented.

[frigid karma]

or in any case not involving 1v1s

which is most engagements

[spring briar]

Too close for WEZ but the gun would fuck you up yea

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/planes-flying-gif-8912009

[strong plank]

it has it yeah but that's not its main focus

[spring briar]

Ofc ofc

[cinder escarp]

J-20 also has better sensor fusion and a better man-machine interface than F-22, and almost certainly a better ECM setup. The AN/ALE-94 was incredible... but it's a 90s design.

[frigid karma]

ok but like half the 'cool tricks' in maverick is just thrust vectoring or just pulling up and slowing to a dead stop

which would leave you dead in a half second

[strong plank]

the raptor was made to attack the enemy before the enemy could detect and attack the raptor

[manic latch]

Thrust vectoring + gun mount. Cmon Regal F22 was expecting dogfights. If stealth was that much focused wouldn't they choose YF-23 instead?

[spring briar]

Still, F22 and SU57 are both highly manoeuvrable stealth aircraft
The only difference is one is made in russia to russian standards

Which is very sad

[frigid karma]

wood screws moment

[strong plank]

the F-35 has a gun mount

was it designed for dogfights?

[manic latch]

J-20 doesn't irrc

[spring briar]

[frigid karma]

carrier has ciws

[cinder escarp]

Nah, the SU-57 will completely outmanuever '22 - '22 isn't that agile.

[frigid karma]

doesn't mean

[cinder escarp]

It's actually still something heavily disputed if it does nor not, to this day

[manic latch]

Yeah

[frigid karma]

just because a carrier has ciws doesn't mean it's going to expect to shoot down missiles with only that

[strong plank]

a lot would have to happen first

[frigid karma]

redundancy and layered defenses exist for a reason

[spring briar]

I wonder who would win in the one circle

[cinder escarp]

I am aware Regal, but the Felon is a far more agile design kinematically than Raptor. Raptor isn't that good kinematically.

They've been gunkilled in exercises by Rafales and Typhoons for a reason.

[manic latch]

Oh yeah they have F22 kills

[spring briar]

Delta wing and canards are glorious in the dogfight

https://tenor.com/view/rafale-brake-rafale-rsdv-rsd-2000l-gif-19753794

[cinder escarp]

Problem with the way TV works on '22 is that you can get a really sharp turn with it, but you also lose all of your energy

[manic latch]

Because people worship F22 like God some reason where it can do everything better at every situation

[cinder escarp]

You'll dodge the first guy and then be a sitting duck for guy #2

[delicate beacon]

It also helps that French make aircraft twice as effective for the size.

[spring briar]

The SU-57 also has the ability to bleed a lot of speed to do the manoeuvres without excessive G’s

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

F-22 should be similar but to a lesser degree because F-22 isnt a leaf like the felon

[maiden citrus]

all 2 of them

[spring briar]

Berkut gtfo

[manic latch]

Mig 1.44

[cinder escarp]

Also, J-20 has a towed decoy stowed internally like F-16E or F-35, F-22 doesn't.

[spring briar]

SU-57 is a leaf

You can’t catch a leaf when its fluttering in the wind

Smh

[manic latch]

[cinder escarp]

F-22 was a game changing plane, but is very much a product of its time - the late '80s

The electronics make this very clear in particular

[spring briar]

FCAS is gonna fuck

[manic latch]

Was that the reason her retirement was so close

[manic latch]

Like 2030-40 smh

Raptor may die without a single plane kill in its life

Except trainings of course

[spring briar]

Mirage 2000 vs F-22

[manic latch]

Old tho

[frigid karma]

[manic latch]

Mitsu is Tempest now

[cinder escarp]

Well, there's the issue that F-22 production and updates were cut short because of the shall we say triumphalist views in the DoD.

[ivory ridge]

FCAS

[frigid karma]

didn't an f16 shoot down an f22 once before

[ivory ridge]

[manic latch]

Wot

[chilly osprey]

I'm pretty sure that everything has shot down everything at least once in exercise at this point

[frigid karma]

https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/11/how-an-old-f-16-killed-a-stealth-f-22-raptor-in-a-dogfight/
yep, they did

[manic latch]

Qh

[frigid karma]

rafale wankers always ignore this apparently

[manic latch]

Training

[frigid karma]

[cinder escarp]

You are missing the greatest of F-22 kill marks

On an A-10C

[ivory ridge]

this makes no sense

[chilly osprey]

Of course the A-10 got one, that's friendly fire

[manic latch]

Hush

[maiden citrus]

the combat system of systems

[frigid karma]

truly

one of the combat systems of systems of all time

[cinder escarp]

Tempest exists because the British and Italians didn't want to be part of the FCAS program... and then the Japanese and Swedes joined in because they didn't have enough money for their own programs.

It must be said, that the UK or Italy don't have the money for Tempest either.

[spring briar]

Can’t wait to see the new flying pizza jet

[chilly osprey]

Depends on the angle they're looking at it from.

FCAS as a project where France and Germany were supposed to be equal partners, even if France was to lead on the aircraft itself.

Tempest is a British-lead program, or at least up until Japan joined. I'm not sure how things will plan out after that.

[manic latch]

Fren

[cinder escarp]

It's very funny, as Tempest is essentially a bunch of air forces who can't afford a new program joining forces to pool their pennies. I don't think it's going to work out for that reason.

[chilly osprey]

Since Japan is going to likely bring as much or more cash than the UK and likely more orders.

[spring briar]

F-16 C is a great jet I don’t see the issue here

[frigid karma]

anyways, just my personal 2 cents on any chinese weapons system:
don't trust anything they say until we see how it does in action

[maiden citrus]

that's a given, we've learned

[frigid karma]

america has had a much more consistent history of excellent military products so it's easier to take what they say at face value

[cinder escarp]

The total budget is like $8 billion for Tempest so far

It's not enough

[frigid karma]

KEK THE LINK I POSTED GOT PURGED

[chilly osprey]

It's definitely much more than $8bn at this point

That's almost as much as the Italians are planning on spending on R&D for the aircraft

[frigid karma]

wishful thinking to believe it could stay for longer than a week

[spring briar]

I remember the good old Mig-15 vs F-86 Sabre days
50 cal spam vs 37 mm cannon spam

[maiden citrus]

it's also how things are rated

'it will do this for certain, possibly more' vs 'it will do this while red lining then you hope it doesn't explode'

[manic latch]

Buccaneer and Kirov

[frigid karma]

an excerpt from that blog post that ccp purged:

I'm not joking when I say they point where they hit. They literally fire first then put down the target. Once the target is placed nobody is allowed to touch the variables. They just wait for the leadership to inspect it

My job was software and integration. Just the 30-odd projects I've touched, they all have issues.

Example:

PGMs and cameras can't be accurately calibrated. Can't turn to the angles entered. When the leadership inspects they just make it move a little for show. Nobody checks the angles are actually right

2. Storage devices (like airplane black boxes) have memory leak issues. As in the code keeps eating up memory as it runs and slowly blows itself up.

3. Micron-level high precision control system. In actuality adjustments are made by hand with a screwdriver. They don't even use a level.

4. Part of the systems still use pirated Windows 7 + hiding the startup screen + autorun programs. Windows' instability is well known. It BSODs after a few days but that's enough for the inspection

5. Version control still uses SVN. When the server is down everybody just goes home

6. One function contains 5000 lines of code. Uncommented generic variables are used (a1/m/n there was even a case of bool fuckme = 1)

7. Earliest code uses Visual C++ 6.0. The code isn't actually executable in the current environment. Nobody questions it

[maiden citrus]

https://tenor.com/view/legendary-battle-kung-fu-panda-gif-19874507

[cinder escarp]

The entire Italian budget through FY23 is 3.8 billion euros.

[frigid karma]

translated for anyone not part of the glorious han race