get minié balled
#history
spring briar
delicate beacon
*snipes your kettle*
spring briar
De Ruyter was great
eternal veldt
oof, looked a bit more into Trafalgar, Royal Sovereign double shotted her guns when passing by Santa Ana's stern, alongside a 68 pounder carronade and a keg of musketballs
Santa Ana: 97 killed, 141 wounded, mostly on that initial broadside and hors de combat
20% casualty rate in a single broadside 
spring briar
rich skiff
cursed
tough quail
I love you lewis gun lad
desert agate
<@286885038208057344>
Perth Sydney or Hobart?
delicate beacon
Perth
desert agate
Niceee
delicate beacon
as per the description
somber knoll
ain't that pretty much a Mark 4 turret but with mark 7 barrels?
technically speaking
eternal veldt
an 18" gun turret downsized to fit 16" guns isn't the same mark, I'd reckon.
solid mango
Ye no ill stay with my three gun turrets no thank you
somber knoll
wait up, I'm eating dinner so I'm kinda messed up my terms.
I meant that looked like a mark 4 turret with mark 7 guns plopped in it.
apologies
eternal veldt
I guess? The twin 18"/47 gunhouse looked like a 16"/50 upsized in the first place.
alpine onyx
Poith
fierce sparrow
subtle prawn
desert agate
maiden citrus
talented engineers, wheel slips like that are no joke
cinder escarp
smh just use tracks
tough quail
desert agate
subtle prawn
cinder escarp
and yet, it was a contender for the most produced tank chassis of all time
Fundamentally, the Knox/RIA chassis didn't change between the earliest Medium M2 and last sherman variant/derivative around
tough quail
hell of a glow up
strong plank
Is that PVC piping behind the pilot’s seat
and here we see the wild humvee in it’s natural habitat. Having removed its weapons to appear less threatening to other vehicles, it appears to be at rest
It is not alone however; humvees are known to travel in pairs
maiden citrus
very unfortunate
manic latch
Man
Not many flying B-17 left
Is this the first actual footage of a ramming ww2 planes by a video I wonder
%14 for Turkey
Oof
tough quail
jesus
manic latch
US with %0.1 population loss
manic latch
Horse shared it yes
spiral cedar
Wikipedia already past tense'd it
spiral cedar
Yes
valid trout
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Raiders
will they repair it?
spiral cedar
I have my doubts
spiral cedar
Yes
tough quail
and that's i believe the single P-63F left in the world that hit it
valid trout
and that's i believe the single P-63F left in the world that hit it
bruh
manic latch
Tho think we know how it looks like now instead arts from ww2
strong plank
will they repair it?
The entire tail was sheared off and there was an explosion after it hit the ground
no parachutes visible in any of the videos I’ve seen
2-3 people just lost their lives today
possibly more
valid trout
welp
mystic wadi
sad
chilly osprey
frigid karma
Was it an air control fuckup
manic latch
I assume pilot underestimate plane's turn circle
jagged monolith
Christ that thing got factorized
latent pelican
That is not a loss they can recover from very well my thoughts go out to the family and the crews
ivory ridge
Everything in that message is cringe
subtle prawn
The first attack on Darwin came on 19 February 1942. Darwin was lightly defended considering its strategic importance. 242 Japanese aircraft inflicted significant damage. 250 Allied personnel, military and civilian, were killed and between 300 and 400 wounded. 11 vessels were sunk and 25 damaged including the clearly marked hospital ship Manunda. 30 Royal Australian Air Force and United States Army Air Force aircraft were destroyed. The Japanese lost between just four and seven aircraft depending on reports.
We covered the first attack at the time. But now is a good opportunity to look back at some memories of those who experienced the 64 attacks on Darwin since February 1942. Leading Aircraftsman Stanley Hawker remembers the massive damage inflicted in the first raid and the desperate fear of Japanese invasion:
“The Japanese bombed the ships in the harbour and scored many direct hits. A bomb hit the post office and killed all in the building. They bombed the hospital and the hospital ship "Manunda". They hit the oil tanks and set them ablaze. We had Zero fighters flying low over our heads... It was a shambles… Flying Officer Swan then called us together and handed us .303 rifles and ammunition. He ordered us to line the cliffs overlooking Fanny Bay where he thought the Japs might try to land… I was with the RAAF in Darwin for 49 of the Japanese air raids. They bombed us on moonlit nights. I learned to hate the full moon nights.”
Fortunately, defences at Darwin are no longer a “shambles”. Japanese losses have mounted steadily. Flight Lieutenant L.G. Fenton, present at 19 raids, hails the defenders:
"Few people in Australia realise fully the number and intensity of the bombing attacks directed by the Japanese against the RAAF station at Darwin or the courage and determination of those who manned the machine gun posts during the initial low-level attacks."
Picture: Allied soldiers inspect damage to Darwin’s water supply after a raid. June, 1943.
Source: AWM.```
ivory ridge
junior trench
Had us in the first half*
frigid karma
Quora and Reddit pale in comparison to Twitter in terms of historical tales
jagged monolith
You say that but I've seen shit you wouldn't believe
Quora gives Time Cube a run for its money.
dusty kraken
What about youtube comment sections
subtle prawn
spring briar
strong plank
80 years today, damn
delicate beacon
Yeahyeah Richie, we know the French 381mm couldnt even hit a Yamato at 1km.
maiden citrus
where would one even start
delicate beacon
By laughing at the absurdity
spring briar
Pew
manic latch
Soviets abandoned this idea after realizing its too complex and expensive 
Could be nice event vehicle in War Thunder tho
strong plank
POV you're an infantryman standing nearby
shrewd pecan
the tank cooking all of its Infantry support alive
humble mulch
I feel that wouldn't be an issue all the time
Especially if done after they just
Drive over enemy defensive positions to zoom away
strong plank
enemy pens the rocket and just deletes any nearby dismounts
tough quail
the idea is mainly for when it's stuck anyway
or needs to get over a hill
not randomly blaring in a straight line
maiden citrus
mrw you are a german in a trench, funny tank approaches, you duck but look up
the tank opens up
hellfire spits forth into your trench
tough quail
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
zinc steeple
hey did the german navy use a repair ship?
manic latch
hey did the german navy use a repair ship?
zinc steeple
which one would be in azur lane? i know hms resource has a chance being the only repair ship of the royal navy.
zinc steeple
i mean it would make sense if the main 4 factions each had a repair ship.
frigid karma
repair ships would require manjuu to give a rat's ass about buffing old ships via stats directly
which they've done...once
honestly i'm astounded as to why they can't just quietly raise some numbers rather than program a new augment with art and stats and new skills and shit
somber knoll
honestly i'm astounded as to why they can't just quietly raise some numbers rath...
because that would require them to go back and forth to Yongshi to add the lines on which buff is for which ship.
unless they made some sort of a compendium on the ships that need to be buffed.
and go straight at once.
frigid karma
because that would require them to go back and forth to Yongshi to add the lines...
how hard would that be
frigid karma
"hey yongshi it's the balancing department, can you guys change these numbers to these numbers thanks"
they've done rebalances before, sometimes during mid patch
see; perseus
somber knoll
and time.
not to mention extra maintenance time
which means more apolocubez and apologems 
frigid karma
it would take less time than sending yongshi a list of new augments with art and other stuff to program in
rather than just changing a few digits
tough quail
I still love how they nerfed perseus mid patch and she's still probably the best ship in the game
frigid karma
augments also don't really earn a lot of money, not like you can pay for those
frigid karma
I still love how they nerfed perseus mid patch and she's still probably the best...
we got hit with the persus tax
still paying richy tax
😔
somber knoll
frigid karma
i am convinced manjuu hates money
"so we put this frog in a swimsuit and she broke every sales record in the game's history"
"lock her faction in the basement"
cinder escarp
oh hey I know someone just like this
maiden citrus
I hope we do
spring briar
nimble willow
"2024"
eternal veldt
@alpine onyx 
alpine onyx
Thank you Drach
Still trying to figure out how a ship that supposedly snaps in half when hitting a wave managed to do half a dozen trips around the globe
chilly osprey
Six trips in two pieces?
ivory ridge
"so we put this frog in a swimsuit and she broke every sales record in the game'...
Frog issue
Fwiw she wasnt even the highest revenue month that year
Shinano a couple of months later did 24k compared to 19k
But it was higher than anything happening in 2019, i dont have the data from 18 and 17 tho
delicate beacon
Still trying to figure out how a ship that supposedly snaps in half when hitting...
Still trying to figure out how a country unable to afford De Ruyter could afford leaders, double its destroyers and two bigger light cruisers
solid mango
Look at dat phat phuck 
tribal mortar
Mommy? Sorry.
solid mango
Phat phuck
tough quail
booty
zinc steeple
darn
manic latch
China will grow larger 
unborn wyvern
Boomer Zoomer
subtle prawn
ivory ridge
Gaijin adding World War mode back in the game
based on the second battle of El Alamein
...
it's just Germany vs UK, no other nation
junior trench
that is an awful idea
3.3
Panzer IV G spam time
because it needs to be around 3.3 to get like, the tanks that were there in
ivory ridge
these are the datamined vehicles
i dont remember ww2 Battle rating enough so idk what's the highest here
dusty kraken
Spitfire F mkVc trop I think
tough quail
>Gaijin adding World War mode back in the game
>based on the second battle of El...
gaijin moment
junior trench
but like, we know people are just going to take out the highest BR shit possible that's allowed to be present
does Italy have anything that wouldn't get face rolled on the ground under the confines of that?
I know they have stuff for air
but like
ground would suck to play
frigid karma
gaijin moment
Wot used to have an old axis vs Allies mode
It was either
10 T29s vs 10 tigers
(You can imagine how that went)
Or 1 jagdtiger vs 4 Matildas
(Historical scenario, guess how that went)
spiral cedar
Reminder that the air fuel officer who saw Lexington burn down and developed the carbon dioxide purging technique that helped later US carriers endure damage was named Oscar Myers
maiden citrus
the great oscar myers saving us once again
solid mango
Just recently rewatched Shin Gojira, I forgot who these are
manic latch
Just recently rewatched Shin Gojira, I forgot who these are <:MurmWat:8396350142...
Izumo left, Ōsumi right
solid mango
Thx 
manic latch
Pro tip
Type the navy you think ships belongs to
Then type their hull number
It will pop up
spiral cedar
After studying the plot Fraser was now engaged in a little morale boosting. As he recalled in his diary: ‘We wondered whether we should have the battle before tea or after tea. We decided we should have it after tea.’ This might have been a battle fought in near total darkness and in the teeth of a gale, but at least the Royal Navy were trying to keep up standards.
shrewd pecan
World war modes always been a mess
It’s what you can point to and say historical match making is stupid
subtle prawn
cinder escarp
I wonder if some day we'll ever know his inside source
The guy was an insurance salesman that never served, there's no way he didn't have one
strong plank
I mean if you watch it he talks all about it
glass trail
but i need me another ship to hold my gold cranes
subtle prawn
solid mango
finally found out wat dis goofy mf is
rugged jetty
American Kugelblitz?
rugged jetty
@manic ridge realistically Akizuki is a pretty alright destroyer considering what she was designed to do but she'd by no means the best
Her guns are just too tiny to compare to other DDs
solid mango
10cm moment
simple star
finally found out wat dis goofy mf is
wtf is that looks like a 10 year old kid draw this
rugged jetty
Akizukis are like a weird mix between the Didos and the Fubukis in terms of what they were designed for
solid mango
note the 50 cals slapped on the sides 
rugged jetty
Neat idea in concept in practice it would only be good for shredding Infantry
alpine onyx
The ducks be alright
manic ridge
Right now i know thanks for saying that
alpine onyx
Just need some love for their 100mm gun
spring briar
junior trench
The gun is... Okay I guess
The barrel will last about one engagement before it needs to be totally replaced
The shells are too small to actually do anything to even other destroyers short of direct hits on critical components, based upon some ships off Guadalcanal never even realizing Teruzuki was shooting them even in hindsight examination
The shell is also underweight for its caliber and performs poorly in the AA role which is further hampered by the state of IJN AA directors aboard the ships the 10cm was mounted to
But yeah
The gun itself is... Fine
eternal veldt
Bear in mind the Akizukis are designed first and foremost as "Anti aircraft ships" - Thus the "Type B" destroyer designation within the IJN - not to act as surface combatants.
Type A - Traditional Torpedo-focused destroyers (See: Kagerou, Yuugumo.)
Type B - Anti Aircraft destroyers (Akizuki, Akizuki-Kais)
Type C - "Perfect"/Heavy torpedo armament destroyers (Only 1 ship - Shimakaze - "perfect" prototype)
Type D - Escort destroyers (Matsu class)
alpine onyx
I'd still hold the lack of remote control, the lack of even a minimum of gun stabilization and the underwhelming shell performance (compared to other guns in that caliber range) against them
Especially for a gun that was not some inter-war takeover but rather developed shortly before the Pacific war started I have expectations
eternal veldt
is it time for depressed duck?
alpine onyx
eternal veldt
depressed duck it is
alpine onyx
Still more useful ships compared to the heavily ASu focused branch
manic latch
rapid junco
Today i found this
On a comment section on an article
sonic coral
What's the difference between a pure oxygen torpedo vs. a regular torpedo?
spiral cedar
What's the difference between a pure oxygen torpedo vs. a regular torpedo?
There are a few different ways torpedoes produce the propulsion needed to get from launcher to target. Putting aside electric torpedoes for now, we usually have a small steam engine in the torpedo, burning a mixture of a fuel, air, and water (for the steam) to turn the torpedo propellor. Normal air is only 21% oxygen (the actual useful gas for combustion), and most of the rest is various inert gases (mostly nitrogen, 78%). The British developed oxygen-enriched torpedoes in the 1920s, which used a higher percentage of oxygen in the gas to improve combustion efficiency (thereby gaining more range). The Japanese, studying the British design, went further, first devising their own oxygen-enriched torpedoes (~38% oxygen-enriched air), and then eventually attaining nearly pure (close to 100%) oxygen, meaning their “pure oxygen” torpedoes (mainly the Type 93 and Type 95) used 100% oxygen, kerosene, and water. This gave them a much greater energy storage density in their torpedoes, which combined with a greater size (24” diameter compared to a more typical 21” in other navies, for destroyer torpedoes), allowed them to increase torpedo range, warhead, and speed. The disadvantages were that fewer torpedoes could be fit into each launcher, and that if the oxygen enrichment facilities on each ship were hit, they were vulnerable to very intense fires driven by the pure oxygen stored within.
subtle prawn
strong plank
Skidaddle Skidee, don’t fuck with Ching Lee
wise pumice
Hipper class: ruined
Hipper: useless
Blücher: Dies to a torpedo older than her crew
Wes: should've stayed a hipper
Tallin: should've stayed a hipper
Eugen: luck vampire, then got nuked and got ransacked for her oil
and don't forget the 🔥🔥 Graf Zeppelin class 🔥🔥
Zeppelin: Not even fucking completed
Strasser: A fading memory
Mind blowing battle record 🤯🤯
Bismarck: 1 sortie 🔥 1 ship sunk 🤯
Tirpitz: No sorties 🔥 Sat in Norway for 4 years
Japanese Destroyer Shimakaze 🤯 Oh, I mean troop transport
frigid karma
died to HMG fire
wise pumice
Japanese Battleship Yamato 🔥
Largest Hotel with Guns Battleship in history 🤯
0 ships sunk
0 planes shot down 🔥
Japanese Aircraft Carrier Shinano 🤯
oh, I meant useless heap of moving metal that can’t even move a shipment of planes 🔥
wise pumice
i'm pretty sure yamato did shoot down a few planes
From her own magazine detonation
tough quail
she helped put both johnston and white plains under
tough quail
hipper actual had a fairly solid career given the circumstances
frigid karma
From her own magazine detonation
i mean of the things to shit on yamato for in ten-go
you picked some rather stupid ones
wise pumice
she helped put both johnston and white plains under
ah, true
frigid karma
there are plenty more hilarious things, you just parrot the same shit everyone and their mom knows
spiral cedar
If you wanna make fun of Yamato, make fun of her for shooting down Japanese planes
Vice Admiral Kurita's Second Fleet steams about 100 miles ahead of Vice Admiral Ozawa's carriers.
At 0920, YAMATO's lookouts spot aircraft approaching at 13,125 feet. This is the fighter unit of Air Group 601's second strike. Admiral Kurita has received no information about a friendly overflight. Cruiser TAKAO fires four starshells meaning "identify yourself", but no reply is received. The planes keep approaching.
At 16,400 yards, YAMATO and the other ships execute a turn to port and open fire. YAMATO's main guns, loaded with "Sanshiki-dan" shells, are fired in anger for the first time - but at friendly forces! Four Mitsubishi Zeke fighters are damaged. Another ditches. MUSASHI's lookouts correctly identify the planes and she is the only ship that does not open fire.```firework shells
frigid karma
```19-23 June 1944: Operation "A-GO" - The Battle of the Philippine Sea:
Vice Ad...
there was also a couple hundred men just drowning in ten-go on yamato
because Damacon center never told them they were counterflooding
Dunno what they were paid to do, considering i don't think the center took any hits early in the battle
eternal veldt
Shitting on Shinano is a bit of beating an unborn child
Crew was unfamiliar with the layout of the ship, watertight compartments are not a joke, and IJN ASW is a joke.
rugged jetty
Not really considering they sank a large number of American submarines
tough quail
A M3 Lee with a 20mm
thats a sherman with a 40mm
cinder escarp
Crapping on Shinano is almost as bad as crapping on 
desert agate
Not really considering they sank a large number of American submarines
they sank them in spite of their godawful ASW not because of it
and the biggest reason for early USN submarine losses was that the sub launched a perfect torpedo spread that would have hit the ship that ended up sinking them, but then mk14 moment happened and the ship was now fully aware of where the enemy submarine was
hardly a compliment to IJN ASW
spiral cedar
A good chunk were lost to mines, probably over 25%
eternal veldt
Not really considering they sank a large number of American submarines
2,000,000 tons worth of the Japanese merchant marine were lost in 1944 alone.
About half of that is attributed to submarine attacks.
A desperate, much needed convoy of five ships, all filled with oil, were sent to Japan via the Formosa strait in 1944.
No sooner than a few days later the entire convoy was lost to submarines.
The IJN ASW is a fucking joke, too late, too little.
spiral cedar
The ultimate goal of ASW is to reduce or prevent shipping losses to enemy submarines—sinking them, though useful to that end, is not the end goal in and of itself
And the utter failure of Japanese escort operations to curtail the Allied submarine threat is well documented
The IGHQ had seen the writing on the wall when U.S. forces reestablished themselves in the Philippines and succeeded in rushing shipments of refined fuel from the East Indies past the newly established Philippines bases in February and March before the sea lanes were completely choked off. The annihilation of a nine-tanker convoy and their escorts off Qui Nhon, French Indochina, in January prompted the Japanese to switch to small convoys with dispersed escorts during the “breakthrough transportation operation,” a tactic which met with some success. U.S. aircraft and submarines sank roughly two-thirds of the tankers running north, but four or five got through with 40,000 tons of refined fuel. These precious cargoes, along with some domestic production, formed the core of what became Japan’s strategic reserve.
2/3 losses, transport operation successful 
eternal veldt
Even if the intent is to sink the submarine, therr is still some absolutely terrible actions from IJN DDs
After Urakaze was obliterated and Kongou was torpedoed in 1944, Yukikaze charged in to drop depth charges
.... Except she did it on the opposite side of where the attack came from.
DesDiv52 failed to sink Redfish, even if staying dangerously close to finish off Unryu.
There's also this bloke doing a number on a convoy in a well documented scenario.
Adding to this, IIRC Japanese captains were reluctant to sail in mass convoys back in 1942, so without the Mark 14 debacle, losses would likely be even higher
spiral cedar
Generally speaking, typical submarine warfare throughout history has involved slipping past the escorts to attack an enemy transport, and then slip away. But with Japan, convoys were often so lightly escorted (often just a single converted civilian boat or minelayer, if that) that US subs often targeted the escort instead, then surfaced to go after the unarmed transports with guns
eternal veldt
... They tried making some kaibokans later, like the Hiburis, IIRC
But at that point US air and sea superiority just pulverizes the small number they are
cinder escarp
The Japanese standardized transport and escort frigate/destroyer programs all came far, far too late.
eternal veldt
They came to their senses around 43/44
cinder escarp
It's kind of funny how up through late '43 they're still basically following peacetime planning, just sped up a bit.
eternal veldt
Before that, it was suggested the combined fleet dominated construction programmes.
spiral cedar
That the sub fleet was the highest casualty service of the USN is primarily due to submarining being an inherently risky business, mostly devoid of the numerical superiority advantages that the surface fleet benefitted from, and that the subs were generally “worth” risking on risky/dangerous missions, with the higher losses a predictable consequence
strong plank
because Damacon center never told them they were counterflooding
IJN damage control moment
alpine onyx
Hipper class: ruined
Hipper: useless
Blücher: Dies to a torpedo older than h...
meanwhile Hipper's combat records
Or is that some dumb HistoryMemes post transcribed?
spiral cedar
Hipper was the one useful Hipper
She killed Glowworm, beat up Berwick, killed Bramble, killed Achates, and damaged Obdurate
alpine onyx
And went on a killing spree from almost within a convoy
Eugen was less successful in that regard, but became the backbone of the German surface fleet in 1944
So I still think she did alright
And because I think the shenanigans she pulled before that are hilarious
spiral cedar
Eugen was less successful in that regard, but became the backbone of the German ...
By process of elimination 
alpine onyx
Gunbote two battleship in the open? None of them can hit back
Get torpedoed by five destroyers from 4km away? None of them hit
Rudder jammed? Suddenly the triple shaft can counteract that
Aerial attack without a proper rudder attached? All torpedo bombers miss
Lützow and Scheer were also around, but were inferior to Eugen in operational value
Oh and the CLs, but those were also obviously not gonna take Eugen's title
frigid karma
Oh and the CLs, but those were also obviously not gonna take Eugen's title
eugen herself had a hand in that
or a bow, rather
alpine onyx
Shitzig had it coming
Which was also very ironic, because the triple shaft was supposed to prevent the ship stopping for coupling, yet Shitzig had to stop to couple the turbines in, which got her into that situation
So the triple shaft was an improvement over the Ks how...?
Not that it mattered for her anyway, the OKM degraded her to a second class ship when they decided to just not restore the destroyed boiler room when she was torped in 1940. Best decision to make with that pile of junk
eternal veldt
Took her toobs too for the Shiny horses.
eternal veldt
died to HMG fire
And just a slight note, Shimakaze didn't technically exactly "die" to HMG fire - it led to her boilers blowing up and crippling her, but it was the bombs that did the coup de grace
I guess hors de combat from HMG
spiral cedar
frigid karma
<:Swordfish_MkI:679848473427968218> <:BiskoSweat:588629714483019776>
it looks like your pfp is launching the biplane
spiral cedar
I am
eternal veldt
Bismarck was sunk by jaba's essays
alpine onyx
replaces Bisko with Eugen
planes get shot down
spiral cedar
replaces Bisko with Eugen
gets hit with nuclear weapons in 1941
desert agate
good ending
eternal veldt
Honestly, it'd be much less of a wanking point for many if the swordfishes that night actually crippled/sank sheffield
spiral cedar
frigid karma
*replaces Bisko with Eugen*
*planes get shot down*
hood shoots at the right target and detonates her
what was the range again, 12km?
eternal veldt
Also, forgot to share this the other day
strong plank
And just a slight note, Shimakaze didn't technically exactly "die" to HMG fire -...
The rabbit fears the box and toob
alpine onyx
don't think Hood knew what she was aiming at
alpine onyx
since the Germans observed the shells to just land in between the ships
desert agate
right
spiral cedar
don't think Hood knew what she was aiming at
It was obvious. She was shooting at Dunkerque 
However, Leach did attempt to have a signal passed to the flagship that the target ordered was the wrong ship. During the thirty seconds after the receipt of the flagship’s signal to target the left-hand ship (Prinz Eugen), the chaplain on Prince of Wales offered a prayer over the loudspeaker system. Actually, Prince of Wales, being to starboard and astern of Hood and having its gunnery director one level higher than the compass platform on Hood, was in a better position for her personnel to make out the battleship. Lieutenant Arthur Skipwith (the spotting officer) and Commander McMullen (in the forward director control position of Prince of Wales) agreed that at first glance Prinz Eugen at long range looked like the French battle cruiser Dunkerque with her after two turrets appearing to blend in with the aft super-structure. More importantly, they realized that the lead ship was not Bismarck.
eternal veldt
eternal veldt
Hood has bad memory, smh, forgot she did a number on Dunkerque a year ago back /s
alpine onyx
do we assume the ships to be completed?
eternal veldt
I guess Dunkerque is fine by that point
spiral cedar
Let’s say just prior to Denmark Strait conditions as case A)
desert agate
spiral cedar
We can try a fully complete condition case for case B)
eternal veldt
I'd slightly lean on the Dunk/Bisko combo if case A, assuming the same detonation scenario occurs to Hood.
spiral cedar
Can’t assume that
desert agate
a wet rag would have a solid chance at beating PoW at Denmark Strait
mfw turret jams again
spiral cedar
Can’t assume that
might happen anyway once the turn is complete
alpine onyx
As it happened the chances were stacked against the German fleet
Dunkerque gets it maybe towards a 50:50?
eternal veldt
My main thing is if Dunk can punch through Hood or not
We know Hood, if ideal conditions, can hurt Dunk quite a bit
spiral cedar
At the ranges the Brits closed to, Dunk can defeat the armor
And yes, Dunk isn’t going to stand up well once Hood starts scoring
There’s probably reason to believe she wouldn’t attain PE’s hit rate, but even if it’s halved that’s still a couple hits
eternal veldt
With a pretty nasty burster too IIRC
spiral cedar
Yes, the consequences of SAP
eternal veldt
Might not be a small UP fire like Oigen if it hits.
Or do we take the insane route that Dunk somehow sets Hood's torps off 
spiral cedar
mm, yeas, words
eternal veldt
Back on point though, I'm not putting faith in Hood's Dreyer FCT if still trying to close at those speeds
spiral cedar
The Dreyer Mark V probably* had issues with the high range rate forced by the British approach vector, but once it returns to mostly parallel courses at medium range after the turn completes, it should produce acceptable results
eternal veldt
Yea, but wasn't the Type 284 on the spotting top knocked out before Hood executed her turn? Seems likely that the FCS will get hampered/damaged if Holland intends to close to that range
Unless Hood makes it completely unscathed until turning parallel
alpine onyx
Yes, the spotting top got hit most likely by Bisko
eternal veldt
So there's a good chance Hood fights handicapped 
spiral cedar
‘Course, this also brings up the question of whether the Brits would close aggressively the same way if they knew they faced two capital ships
Not that I think the British gunnery is improved any by a long range engagement…
eternal veldt
Given Hood's characteristics, I don't think it wise to stay at range
The oh-so-deadly plunging fire
... Unless, the solution is to not engage at all and bait and tail the duo like Norfolk and Suffolk had been
frigid karma
All the hood needs to do is simply outflank the dunkerque and approach it from the rear
is tenk tactic
spiral cedar
Does also raise the question of how Dunk and Bisco are going to coordinate tactical maneuvers…
Maybe just basic “follow the leader?”
Or pre-arranged terms for basic maneuvers
eternal veldt
Wait what type of mg did shima in?
my bad, I forgor, it was just general MG fire from the 350+ plens of TF38 that were sent to get rid of Shima and co, not land based P-38s
so, 20mm, 12.7mm, 7.62mm, the likes
eternal veldt
All the hood needs to do is simply outflank the dunkerque and approach it from t...
Hood strips a turbine once again in doing so
As she did chasing after Strasbourg
frigid karma
Hood strips a turbine once again in doing so
well then hoist the sails and get the bloody crew to row
what are we paying them for
eternal veldt
Hood gets mistaken as surrendering and subsequently shot to shit for perfidy
Franco German victory.
frigid karma
Hood gets mistaken as surrendering and subsequently shot to shit for perfidy
they'll only realize it's perfidy when they realize she's not surrendering
and at that point, she's already initiated boarding actions
frigid karma
*BBNJ vid on Plan Z*
*opens comments*
*closes comments*
While Tirpitz saw little-to-no direct action during the war, his
closes tab
spiral cedar
show me
spiral cedar
no
frigid karma
calling tirpitz a male is..well..
spiral cedar
you do it
spiral cedar
I’ll pay you in exposure
alpine onyx
Only comment worth engaging, even tho the idea that saving tonnage would allow for a third ship is silly since the horse didn't get saddled that way
Rest is generic dumbness
zealous vine
Were there terms to call the battlecruisers with "conventional" layouts like Hood and the battlecruisers with machineries set abaft / have no X turret like the G3?
spring briar
Only comment worth engaging, even tho the idea that saving tonnage would allow f...
hmmm yes this minor change to one unit might be able to change the outcome of the war yes yes
WW2 was clearly an only naval war yes yes
zealous vine
He did at least admit it wouldn't have changed much though..
spring briar
it wouldn't change anything
zealous vine
Other than the ambiguous, "be more effective"
Maybe 3x3 Biscuit would've had sufficiently different dimensions that that 1 torp doesn't hit her rudder
spring briar
she might be wider and thus less fuel efficient
zealous vine
Were there terms to call the battlecruisers with "conventional" layouts like Hoo...
?
spring briar
don't think so
alpine onyx
It wouldn't have made the Bismarcks any lighter
They mathed it out during design phase, and it was heavier, and thus it was dropped to remain within tonnage limits
spring briar
was the extra weight mostly due to the extra gun or due to the wider barbettes and wider everything as a result
it's gonna be both innit
alpine onyx
A lot should come from making the hull fit
Even with the twin forward the citadel around the forward bulkhead was beyond cramped, if you want to fit a 30% larger loading platform as well as 50% more ammo there you will have to either lengthen the citadel forward, or widen it and make the bow longer to fit that hydrodynamically, or both
spring briar
I wonder how the seakeeping would be
I'd expect them to go with a proportionally higher freeboard than on the scharnies
but at that point you also need to be concerned about using a turtleback
alpine onyx
At that point I'd have to redesign the ship so much
I might as well put my plans for Scharnhorst Kai on the table and call it a day
spring briar
You still need to improve the bow flare
manic latch
Gawd I fucking love Italy 
keen zealot
manic latch
Calliope 2
Dunno if too optimistic
Since it will cause some issues with new 130mm
manic latch
@ivory ridge
So. Kommuna used Galileo. October Revolution I think used German Zeiss? 8 meter rangefinder
Now which 8 meter one was better tho
@chilly osprey Sorry for tag lad. But I am really wondering this
somber knoll
@spiral cedar mind if you can confirm this?
from Lacroix:
Before Ibuki was launched, one proposal was made to replace the aircraft and their equipment with five quintuple Type 0 torpedo tube mounts.
so Ibuki was planned to be a Shima lite (relatively in CA terms) before her conversion was underway?
somber knoll
ah
somber knoll
@eternal veldt will have to wait when he wakes up then?
spring briar
somber knoll
spring briar
spring briar
<@358840970931994624> mind if you can confirm this?
from Lacroix:
```Before Ib...
yes this is true
spring briar
chilly osprey
<@301343127229300738> Sorry for tag lad. But I am really wondering this <:Sadge:...
Out of curiosity, what book? Seems to have a lot of detail.
Unfortunately I've not seen any direct comparison of the rangefinders, so it's hard to say which. Zeiss benefitted from the more advanced German optical industry and usually were better off than their Italian contemporaries, but since Kommuna & Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya's refits came later (both had Galileo supplied 8-m rangefinders, Marat is the one that had a Zeiss-made 8-m rangefinders in the turrets), they're not exactly contemporaries.
manic latch
Out of curiosity, what book? Seems to have a lot of detail.
Unfortunately I've ...
Oh yeah book is just "released" today. Warships of the Soviet Fleets 1939-1945 Volume I: Major Combatants. Tho it's already out of stock some reason. But there is a short free trial version on Google books
By free trial I mean as %80 of book is missing but you get it
somber knoll
I see 3 mounts 
chilly osprey
Ah, right, that one. I was thinking of getting it, glad to see it's looking pretty good on the inside
manic latch
Ah, right, that one. I was thinking of getting it, glad to see it's looking pret...
Yup. I never heard this before
Stalin's children huh
No wonder he loved Large cruisers
somber knoll
there's 2 in the hull
figured so yeah.
chilly osprey
No wonder he loved Large cruisers <a:TohruHarts:998318496918282240>
Other way around, most likely. His passion about such ships was well known, that probably inspired them to be dubbed as such
chilly osprey
Clearly the most dangerous thing you could do in Soviet Russia in the 1930s was have your picture taken.
manic latch
Yup
ivory ridge
lol
subtle prawn
shrewd pecan
frigid karma
strong plank
and for a few brief seconds, that loader was the fastest man alive
tribal mortar
Panhard CRAB 😍
shrewd pecan
loader loading faster than the gun breach can reopen
frigid karma
loader loading faster than the gun breach can reopen
it's not breech action, it's full auto
manic latch
Happy Launch day Leningrad
fierce sparrow
manic latch
7th Type 055 DDG could be ready to enter service
zealous vine
Did near miss-bomb hits damage ship hull regardless?
ivory ridge
Yes if close enough
manic latch
Did near miss-bomb hits damage ship hull regardless?
It may
US does shock trials for their carriers on similar way
maiden citrus
I agree, ram people
somber knoll
RAMMING SPEED
fierce sparrow
subtle prawn
tribal mortar
BHR plane?
tight violet
which one of these tanks has the best looking era setup here
is the stacked era look better than the kontakt wedge look
tough quail
t-80u flaps besto
delicate beacon
Best looking pantserrups coming through.
spring briar
t-80u flaps besto
tough quail
yaes
ivory ridge
what videogame is that 
spiral cedar
Azur Lane 2
strong plank
what videogame is that <:Mrum:971788985632440400>
DCS maybe?
tough quail
super science
shrewd pecan
eh
shrewd pecan
which one of these tanks has the best looking era setup here
neat
third one has the bustle rack autoloader
tho I must go with T-84
still the nicest looking of the 80 series tanks even if it suffers from some production issues
spring briar
what videogame is that <:Mrum:971788985632440400>
DCS
Me pulling 10 G’s trying to dodge 9x’s
ivory ridge
so true
tight violet
tho I must go with T-84
3 of them are t-84s you’re gonna have to be more specific
One is just t-84, one is oplot m and one is yatagan, fourth is a t-80uk for reference
shrewd pecan
oplot
ivory ridge
T-84 my beloved
maiden citrus
ew lol
weren't british air directors not very impressive, nevermind that neither of those guns are either
frigid karma
VT fuze made up 40% of 5" aa shells by the end of the war
what are the figures for 4.5/5.25?
spiral cedar
The 45 deg elevation range of the 5"/38 is 17.4 kyds compared to 20.8 kyds for the 4.5", but that somehow translates to "outranged by 6-7 kilometers"
maiden citrus
man I somehow didn't even see that part
it's like my brain pressed x to go next as soon as it saw the point of the sentence
chilly osprey
Taking either of those as the AA ranges of those guns if a meme and a half
frigid karma
that last part doesn't make sense
the US saw kamikazes and started building 76mm
not guns larger than 127
maiden citrus
you tend to want the smallest gun that will do the job in swarm scenarios
the 3''/50 was the biggest (vt fuse enabled) small gun that could killstop kamikazes
chilly osprey
Also, the effective range of heavy AA guns is that you can't really snipe with them the way this guy seems to think
Now, what the USN actually did in response to stuff like the PC-1400X was develop SAMs
Hence the Lark, and Op. Bumblebee
frigid karma
you tend to want the smallest gun that will do the job in swarm scenarios
wait, but why does this say
Several upgrades were effected on the Mk 32 during the war causing many re-designations, which will not be covered here. Let it be said that these upgrades affected mainly the reliability of the shell and its adaption to lighter calibers. Only the 127mm L/38, 152mm L47 (in the AA role it played in the Worcester class postwar cruisers) and 76mm L/50, of the USN's guns, were suitable to this shell. The British used it in their 4.5" and 5.25" guns, and several U.S. and British Army guns employed the fuze.
maiden citrus
76mmL/50 is the 3''/50
frigid karma
76mmL/50 is the 3''/50
I was referring to the part where it said 5.25 used vt fuze
maiden citrus
'what if we put the entire ijn in ph, could they invade it? also assume hawaii has no coastal defenses and the us carriers don't intervene'
maiden citrus
I was referring to the part where it said 5.25 used vt fuze
I think it did have some
just very little and very late in the war
frigid karma
have these people ever been to kuaui
literally the densest forest i've ever seen in my entire life
and rivers everywhere
If they wanted to... perhaps leaving the dockyards an oil tanks intact for the invasion force to gather in would have been preferable
what the fuck is he thinking here
does he think the americans will just leave the oil tanks intact for the japanese out of common courtesy
If MacArthur was stationed there, maybe
spiral cedar
But the key element of the bombardment of Hawaii by the IJN would not actually have been doing further damage to the port facilities or the disabled ships, which by this point would actually be targets for capture. It would really be counter battery work (along with a dozen cruisers and two dozen destroyers), for suppressing any guns that might try to interfere with the invasion fleet landing two divisions on the morning of December 9 1941.
But by that time the IJN aircraft and surface fleet would have almost completely suppressed much useful resistance, leaving the elite battle hardened Japanese divisions to sweep aside the poorly equipped and badly trained defenders, who might be determined, but whose devastated morale and complete lack of combat experience would quickly tell.
You can fantasise as much as you like about iron jawed John Wayne types mounting a furious resistance, but, to use a phrase, it doesn't amount to a 'hill of beans' when it comes to battered amateurs against experienced professionals with full air and sea dominance and massive fire-power support. If something as strong and well garrisoned as Fort Eben-Emauel can fall to such a shockingly fast and powerful attack, then certainly an unprepared Hawaii can! Singapore was much better prepared, and much more heavily garrisoned 2 months later, but, stuck in a civilian disaster zone, they had no real chance against crack troops with complete dominance of air and sea.
maiden citrus
just use the explosives as cover
spiral cedar
frigid karma
Singapore guns were literally stuck pointing the wrong fucking way
spiral cedar
So they fired AP at ground troops
spiral cedar
No, it's just a common myth
frigid karma
he doesn't discuss how japan gets the logistical capabilities to support an invasion, does he?
i skimmed the whole thing and i don't see it
spiral cedar
But in this scenario, it would be far easier to completely finish off the threat from the USN
Or rather
maiden citrus
and then you remember that even with every ship counted as sunk/out of action
the us battle line was still considered stronger
maiden citrus
he doesn't discuss how japan gets the logistical capabilities to support an inva...
just put the whole ijn in ph trust me
spiral cedar
This is a fun thought. If the USN has been neutralised, then obviously Japan would have to attempt to knock out the Eastern Fleet and make the Allies admit that a negotiated peace is the only alternative.
Frankly part of the plan to occupy Hawaii was the assumption that trading it back in return for peace would be a major attraction to the US. So peace in return for safety for US, New Zealand, Australia, India and Ceylon. With the bonus of the return of Hawaii and Burma, and possibly a neutralised zone Singapore under joint management. All offered when the IJN has achieved total victory, and there is nothing the US or Britain can do about it.
spiral cedar
There would have been no need, because half a dozen IJN battleships – most likely the two 27 knot Nagato's and the four 30+ knot Kongo's, (escorted by the 7th aircraft carrier Hosho), that actually did provide distant cover for the operation – would be giving an object lesson as to what Mers-el-Kebir could have looked like if Somerville hadn't consciously decided to do as little damage as possible.
There is not much doubt that the 48 14" and 16" guns of those 6 capital ships could finish the operational destruction of both the US Pacific fleet and the Pearl Harbour base in pretty short order if the IJN controlled the air. (If they wanted to... perhaps leaving the dockyards an oil tanks intact for the invasion force to gather in would have been preferable? In fact it is amusingly possible to re-imagine the Doolittle Raid actually taking place as a USN strike against the captured ships and facilities of an occupied Pearl Harbour!)
Fantasy land
maiden citrus
I think the best part of that nonsense, even if it leaves out that ph has actual bb gun defenses and the same amount of planes without cv backup as the invaders, that hosho is escorting the kongos
ah yes, 25 knot carrier on a pristine day escorting our 30 knot bcs
spiral cedar
In fact the only real threat to a Japanese invasion fleet was potentially any USN submarines that might a) survive, b) manage to get to sea, and c) manage to get past a massive IJN air and surface screen to attack fast moving targets... (Let's be optimistic and suggest that one of them did actually hit one of the Japanese capital ships, and by some miracle the torpedo functioned... unlikely at that time... and damaged, but did not sink it... that is what actually happened later in the war... once the torpedo's were fixed anyway... so let's say it happened almost accidentally here... big deal... Particularly if the damaged ship could sail straight into an occupied Pearl harbour for repairs?)
What ...is this... trying to...say...
maiden citrus
well you see you know those bombed repair docks in ph, just use those to repair your fleet thousands of miles from any friendly base
I don't get what you don't understand
spiral cedar
Maybe they're invading with ships full of shipyard workers too, to do the actual, y'know, repair work
maiden citrus
just use the er, american... oh, you think it's compatible? well it should be right
eternal veldt
They have Akashi, it'll buff out.
maiden citrus
what in the kentucky fried cluckin is the markins on this here wrench, it dun fit my dang screws
maiden citrus
Maybe they're invading with ships full of shipyard workers too, to do the actual...
they knew the destroyers wouldn't make it back, so they loaded them down with workers, we'll call it, operation normal carpet
frigid karma
They have Akashi, it'll buff out.
Akashi’s a capitalist
She’d bankrupt the Sakura empire for the servicing fees required
To make us shipyards fit
maiden citrus
what in the tarnation this toolbox got fraction markins on it
maiden citrus
extra cursed work with me here
spiral cedar
Frankly, this "plan" is just a way to gamble the entire IJN on one operation
maiden citrus
I think this would unironically make them lose faster
they lose a ton of ships storming a dedicated base thousands of miles away
the base is half rubble by the time it's over
no friendly base in such distance that they can't leave
keen zealot
Knocked out BT-7 early version
maiden citrus
it's essentially 'the us bee-lines the phillipines december 8th' but with less ships, less supplies and less cohesion
spiral cedar
I like how he complains that just going after the Brits and Dutch would have left their flank and supply lines open to the US, but then...doesn't seem to mind those supply lines to Hawaii being open
frigid karma
I like how he complains that just going after the Brits and Dutch would have lef...
He doesn’t mention supply lines to Hawaii
Cant be intercepted if there is no line
frigid karma
They will just eat the Hawaiians for sustenance
I’m pretty sure they can just book it to kuaui and hide somewhere in the mountains
Because Jesus fucking Christ are they massive
Good luck finding marines in here
spiral cedar
In fairness they really just need Oahu
But if they have any big coastal guns in Kauai...
autumn sorrel
Does he argue on American contigency plan? I pretty sure USN have contigency in case PH get attack due to the amount of it was the target in USN fleet problem exercise. Like counter attack the invasion fleet or defending Hawaii till reinforcement arrive.
maiden citrus
doesn't seem so, he discounts its coastal guns even
spiral cedar
Alt-hist caring about what the enemy response would be? Hah
Everything's easy against a passive opponent
autumn sorrel
So he dismiss the effort and war plan of USN and place assumption on IJN war game which arguably have even less creative and prohibit outside of the box solution?
spiral cedar
glass trail
Good luck finding marines in here
this looks like ai generated art
frigid karma
it's not
dapper parcel
The 45 deg elevation range of the 5"/38 is 17.4 kyds compared to 20.8 kyds for t...
Is it even actually outranged at all?
AA range isn't exactly following surface ballistic range
Heavy AA also don't snipe planes while at it...
alpine onyx
It's kinda a mix of surface range and ceiling, but realistically neither of them will be of much use against planes beyond 10km
HACS being ass likely giving the 5.25 a shorter effective range than the 5"/38 has
junior trench
"so what's your AAFC computer's method for calculating the vertical velocity of a target?"
RN: "we fucking guess lol"
dapper parcel
Well, at extreme range you can bank on the attacker being passive
Maybe able to surprise them once
junior trench
*this still applies after the integration of radar as well
because HACS is apparently utterly incapable in figuring out a firing solution for things that are climbing or diving at all without manual adjustment of the inputs based upon the best guess of the spotting officer
alpine onyx
Good thing there were no planes that had massive changes in altitude over the course of their attack
junior trench
unlike the... checks notes IJN, where such inputs were done via instrument measurement
and the USN
alpine onyx
junior trench
and I'm assuming the Germans
dapper parcel
Tbf altitude determination is hard using contemporary method. Height finding was rudimentary and involves small angle, prone to large error
I somewhat understand if they determine it not worth pursuing
junior trench
unlike the... *checks notes* IJN, where such inputs were done via instrument mea...
(tachymetric)
alpine onyx
German systems had those parameters as well
On both director based and mount based calculators
junior trench
Tbf altitude determination is hard using contemporary method. Height finding was...
that argument would hold up... if it wasn't for other navies having systems capable of tracking targets moving at up to 250 knots in the vertical axis
in 1941
dapper parcel
I was refering at long range, it is indeed baffling at short range
junior trench
it's not until kamikaze attacks that the system really gets pushed beyond its capabilities... and by then there's slew sights and VT fuzes in play
In an attempt to increase the chances of success, an Auto Barrage Unit (ABU) was added to the system starting in early 1942. This device was coupled to the Type 285M radar system and could automatically fire a barrage salvo such that the shell bursts occurred when the target reached a selected range - usually between 1,000 and 5,000 yards (900 to 4,600 m). Fire had to be held until the target was within the 5,000 yard (4,600 m) limit and there was only a single chance to destroy an attacking aircraft before it was able to launch its own weapon.
Pout, H.W., 'Weapon Direction in the Royal Navy' in Kingsley, F.A., The Development of Radar Equipments for the Royal Navy, 1935-45 (The Macmillan Press LTD, 1995). Referenced as 'Pout' in footnotes. (page 63-65)
dapper parcel
basically the same wall-of-lead doctrine on pom-pom scaled up
junior trench
...the gunnery report of HMS Illustrious for the attacks in January 1941 stated that HADFAS and, by extension, the HACS itself, was of no use against dive bombers. It should be noted that during these attacks Illustrious expended about 3,000 rounds of 4.5-inch HE at an average of 12 rounds per gun per minute, yet she suffered eight bomb hits.
Raven and Roberts, 1976, p. 378-379, Campbell, 1985, p. 17.
The British claimed eight Ju-87s downed during the attacks on Illustrious and Valiant, three by anti-aircraft fire and five by the Fulmar air cover. However, German reports show that about 32 Ju-87s from I and II/St.G2 participated in the action, of which only three were lost during the attacks plus another one which was heavily damaged by a British fighter and written off following a crash landing back at its base.
Malta, 1987, p. 115.
alpine onyx
junior trench
compare this to the losses involved in the Pacific when pressing home attacks on both sides
both to AA and fighters
the much vaunted RN fighter direction
dapper parcel
By the way, if you look at how Type 285M antenna are arranged, it should be no surprise that it can't do heightfinding
USN GFCS supplement the fire control radar with Mk22 heightfinder, I don't think RN employ dedicated heightfinder at all even knowing that Type 285 vertical lobe were humongous
alpine onyx
b. When steaming at the normal speed of the fleet the vibration of the Pom-Pom Directors is great and makes the operation of the Directors most difficult. The vibration is such that the whole C.O.F.A.S. of S.1 Director, on one occasion, snapped off.
That piece from Illustrious gunnery report
dapper parcel
Wait, did the brits even have heightfinder radar at all?
Even Type 277 was only shoehorned into the role
alpine onyx
50. For the same reasons as explained in 48 (i) the 4.5” Control officers did not use their H.A.D.F.A.S. but looked straight at the target and tried to direct their bursts on to it by applying arbitrary corrections to Dv and Dl.
No surprise Illustrious' AA sucked ass
Just fucking eyeball'ed their targets without any sense
dapper parcel
Lmao they really didn't have heightfinder
fierce sparrow
ivory ridge
me
subtle prawn
RAF Bomber Command has approximately 800 operational heavy bombers available. They are equipped with sophisticated navigational equipment, such as the H2S airborne ground-scanning radar, so have opted for night raids.
Adopting lessons from the previous few months, Command has gone for deception tactics and split the bombers into two groups. 440 RAF Avro Lancasters fly to Berlin, supported by 4 Mosquitos. A smaller force consisting of 395 Lancasters, Halifaxes, Stirlings, and Mosquitos heads to Ludwigshafen in the southwest to draw German air defenses away from the capital. This group first flies northeast to Frankfurt to conduct a feint attack, then doubles back to Ludwigshafen.
On their way to Berlin, the bombers encounter harsh weather conditions, causing 26 Lancasters to return to base early. Aircrews suffer injuries from frostbite as the air temperature at cruising altitudes drops to –40 degrees Celsius. Over Berlin, airmen struggle to spot their target through the heavy cloud cover. The diversionary group at Ludwigshafen faces similar issues and scatter their bombs. German air controllers respond by directing night fighters over both cities, but the bad weather keeps most of them on the ground.
Of the 1,600 tons of bombs released, only a small number find their targets. The RAF report 9 aircraft lost over Berlin, a mere 2 percent of that group. At Ludwigshafen, 23 RAF aircraft are shot down totaling almost 6 percent of that force. Examining the damage the following morning, Berlin police will find a total of 154 dead, 443 injured, and 7,500 left homeless.
RAF considers the raid a failure and will now launch many more air raids during the five-month-long Battle of Berlin.
Picture: An Avro-Lancaster in flight.
Source: IWM, CH.6070```
spiral cedar
As the destroyer's two quintuple torpedo mounts were being trained out, Fletcher's gunnery radar was rematched with the SG-radar fix and all guns were thus brought to bear on the large new target.
...
When the target was 7,300 yards to starboard, almost due east of Fletcher, Commander Cole ordered his ship to slow to 15 knots. As Fletcher settled down to her new speed, the captain ordered his torpedo officer to fire all five fish in the forward torpedo mount.
Seconds after the fish were away, TM3 Ev Hurley, the mount trainer, looked down at his assistant, whose head was bowed in fervent prayer.
"It's a good thing you're doing that," Hurley tartly observed, "I didn't have the time."
"Don't worry," the unabashed assistant shot back, "I did enough for both of us.”
About thirty seconds later, at Commander Cole's order, all five torpedoes in Fletcher's after mount were expended. For the next six minutes, Fletcher hovered in the area while Cole and his torpedo officer counted off the minutes and seconds until the fish were due to strike the target. At about the right moment, a series of increasingly large explosions appeared to rock the distant warship. Fletcher's exec, LCdr Joe Wylie, had left the SG radar to watch from the bridge; he saw two dull flashes and, several seconds later, heard the thump of at least two large detonations. These were followed by a continuous blaze along the top of the apparently stricken warship. Since the action had all but ended, Fletcher remained on the scene, observing the burning ship as it limped off to the southeast. After about twenty minutes, a huge explosion appeared to engulf the target. Many of Fletcher's topside officers and crewmen swore the burning ship blew up and completely disintegrated.
If Fletcher's initial visual fix was correct, the target could not have been Hiei, as was thought at the time; the Japanese flagship was by then limping away more or less toward the north. Kirishima did loop back within the moving central melee after her initial run away from the battle, but the second Japanese battleship did not completely traverse the battle arena so could not have emerged from it through any southern quadrant. Moreover, Kirishima was not struck by any torpedoes that night and, indeed, suffered no damage of remotely the magnitude observed by Fletcher's topside crew. That leaves just one possibility: San Francisco. She traversed these waters on a southerly and southeasterly heading, she was the victim of numerous visible topside fires throughout her retirement, and she did exchange gunfire with distant warships. If the target was indeed San Francisco, then Fletcher's ten torpedoes certainly missed altogether, for the flagship was not struck even by dud torpedoes. Indeed, no one aboard San Francisco was aware that any torpedoes had passed her.
delicate beacon
98 pages 
subtle prawn
strong plank
subtle prawn
strange steppe
The US navy really just became an unimaginably large force unparalleled by any civilization in history for a few years like it was nothin
tribal mortar
America legit just said "it takes more than bombs to kill us"
tight violet
Object 187
subtle prawn
tight violet
Object 187
Unfortunately irl images suck but then armored warfare took an interest so thanks them i guess for better quality images
I see the muzzle brake and t-90a looking turret, idk is the tank taller or what other visible changes compared to t-72
tough quail
I see the muzzle brake and t-90a looking turret, idk is the tank taller or what ...
the main benefit is visible in the first picture
the hull front is extended and the drivers port is further back and disconnected from the front plate
tight violet
How is the front extended, less angled glacis? The hull doesnt seem that much longer with the six pairs of road wheels
cinder escarp
Nope, the turret is moved back
Because a more compact engine is used
The A-85 engine aka 12H360 aka... the engine that would eventually be used in Armata.
It first showed up here.
tough quail
a lot of the 2010s/2020s in military tech boils down to
"we finally get to play with our 90s toys again"
but with random drones slapped on
jagged monolith
More like technology finally caught up to ambition.
US Army was trying for some crazy stuff with data transmission in the 90s but it didn't work because all they had was MIDS-LVT level stuff at best.
Link 16 MIDS-JTRS came later and that probably will work out but christ, slow down.
tough quail
kinda sorta
the technology already existed for what im thinking about
the budget did not
the techs just a bit cheaper now and there's enough rumbling for military budgets to be larger than $5 outside of the US
manic latch
@tough quail
vestal willow
Are the two DDGs the strongest ships in the game from a historical view?
The Essex class carriers if given their updated equipment from the 80s would surely be stronger, but my point is kind of that that's not in the game while the DDG retrofit is
Same can be applied to New Jersey who was equipped with Tomahawks later on but does not have those in the scope of the game
valid trout
Are the two DDGs the strongest ships in the game from a historical view?
yes
as they are the only ones with missiles out of the ships that were actually equiped with missiles later in the late 20th century
vestal willow
Assuming they had 70s radar they'd likely also be able to stay well out of range of any ship in the game, wouldn't they?
Even if it is 70s Chinese radar
manic latch
Assuming they had 70s radar they'd likely also be able to stay well out of range...
They use Silkworm missiles which is a heavy inspirationa from Soviet P-15
Early P-15s had 40km range
M version had 80km
But
It's warhead was 454kg
So what Chinese did it
With improved electronics, the warhead reduced to 250 kilograms (550 lb) and the original rocket engine replaced with a turbojet, this weapon was much improved with a range of over 100 kilometres (62 mi)
So those Anshans outrange anything in game yes
vestal willow
That makes me wonder. Wikipedia says Anshan's top speed is 32 kts. Assuming that its radar can pick up a huge ship like NJ at well over 100 kilometres and it can launch its missile from that distance, I wonder if it would be possible for NJ to survive the missile strike (I believe Anshan had 4 missiles total and if they're just pure HE then they're not likely to do too much to a battleship) and actually catch up to Anshan. That is assuming that NJ's ww2 era radar can pick the destroyer up.
Which is questionable.
And the assumption is also made that the missile impacts wouldn't lower NJ's top speed, which is very generous to say the least
A much more likely match up would probably be HMS Albion or HMS Centaur which could potentially catch the DD with its planes
manic latch
Would be funny to see NJ trying to deal with them 
vestal willow
It's not really made clear what equipment/configuration NJ has in the game, is it? I'd assume her WW2 configuration but her default skin makes her look high tech. Well, she is high tech by WW2 standards
And you don't see any phalanxes on her rigging
manic latch
It's not really made clear what equipment/configuration NJ has in the game, is i...
It's her ww2 set
So she only has 40mm bofors to deal with any kind of anti ship
Or 5 inces
ivory ridge
513kg HEAT warhead it seems
ivory ridge
So those Anshans outrange anything in game yes
the anshan dont use the improved version
at least ingame
manic latch
the anshan dont use the improved version
Don't they use HY-2?
ivory ridge
Plus the base Hy-2 is just 50km
autumn sorrel
Is Isuzu class as anti-air cruiser or she is just an experiment?
manic latch
ivory ridge
the whole thing about the 100km range is ??? because right after that it details every model of the missile built by the chinese and none does what the article said
dang Romania still has a frigate with silkworms
ivory ridge
The cruiser was entirely a Romanian project, with the exception of the armament which was license-built or of Soviet origin
manic latch
Light cruiser
tough quail
it's cute I enjoy
vestal willow
If it's just 40 km range then that doesn't make them nearly as strong
That's well within the range of late WW2 radar and carrier aircraft shouldn't have a problem taking them out if the CV(L) is prepared and doesn't get surprised by a missile strike
keen zealot
Soviet tank designer at 3am be like
tough quail
based
desert agate
I mean realistically no, a WW2 era battleship on its own isn't going to put up a fight from a silkworm barrage
But battleships rarely sail on their own
An entire task force of WW2 era ships and all of a sudden you've got radar pickets at 20km+ away
And well now your suped up WW2 destroyer has to figure out which ship in the task force is the one it wants to kill, while having been detected by the picket DD and is probably being chased down by a collection of warships
And if it gets it wrong well
An Iowa can outrun an An Shan
And it's not much of a challenge either
Not that the Iowa needs to since its escorts are more than capable of doing their jobs
autumn sorrel
Don’t forget, if it happen to be a fast carrier task force that the Iowa is escorting then you will get swarm by bunch of angry Avengers.
desert agate
The inference that a carrier task force could detect and engage an Anshan with aircraft is a little bit ridiculous if the Anshan has managed to get within firing range without being detected
It takes about an hour to arm, spot and fuel a carrier strike, let's say 20 minutes though since it may not be a full strike against one or two destroyers
Still not fast enough to defeat a missile going at Mach 0.95
autumn sorrel
Which remind me, what was the USN response to Soviet missile spam again? I don’t know much outside of some cruiser get convert into missile guide cruiser but not much until the harpoon missile.
desert agate
If the carrier does in fact spot the ships, which it probably will USN recon is pretty good, then the Anshan is not having a good day
desert agate
Which remind me, what was the USN response to Soviet missile spam again? I don’t...
It's called the SM-1
Or even earlier, the Terrier
Soviet missile spam also led to the eventual development of the AN/SPY-6 and the AEGIS battle management system
autumn sorrel
So anything the soviet do, American just do better
desert agate
In terms of missiles touching task forces, I mean yeah but the Americans never had a perfect system in the cold war
A very good system, yes
But against a large and concerted Soviet missile attack, overwhelming air defence systems was always a possibility
Which is why the Americans did their best to also not let Soviet task forces into missile range
Hence, F-4 and F-14
autumn sorrel
I guess, you’re right. I mean, I use to think that ASM should have as much range as possible then I learn how shit the guidance system are and the fact that they need some source to guide them till the point they can use their own radar. Which beg the question, how close the ship must close in to launch the missile so they have the shortest time till the missile can find target on their own?
I mean, with cold war tech, not modern system.
desert agate
What
how close the ship must close in to launch the missile so they have the shortest time till the missile can find target on their own?
could you rephrase this?
self guided anti-shipping missiles have only been a thing for about 5 years
and even then
theres only two of them
LRASM and JSM
autumn sorrel
I really don’t know how to put it, how close the ship must be so they can guide the missile until the on board sensor kick in.
autumn sorrel
In this context, then the P-15, because it likely gonna be use in a swarming attack.
desert agate
missiles like the P-700 can use either satellite targeting or require input from the ship that fired them, but once fired has intertial guidance so can therefore be fired at max range
pl-15 is an air to air missile
manic latch
pl-15 is an air to air missile
He speaking of P-15
autumn sorrel
missiles like the P-700 can use either satellite targeting or require input from...
I remember reading that Kirov can use their Ka heli to guide the missile, correct?
desert agate
P-15 has intertial homing can be fired at max range
beam riding anti-shipping missiles basically arent a thing
at least none im aware of
chilly osprey
Your most effective defense against early AShMs was mainly electronic attack (ECM)
Since early missiles had crap for protection/ECCM methods
(AShMs or SAMs)
jagged monolith
These days radar guidance has gotten real good.
chilly osprey
Early SAMs like Terrier and Talos were more so for shooting down the aircraft that might launch the missiles or torpedoes or bombs in the first place
jagged monolith
Gotta jam multiple platforms at the same time and make sure they don't just home on jam.
desert agate
I remember reading that Kirov can use their Ka heli to guide the missile, correc...
theoretically yeah the russians have a data-link that could guide missiles but i mean why would you use a helicopter
chilly osprey
Less so than the missiles themselves, though later on they got better at it
chilly osprey
Early and mid cold war SAMs also really sucked against low-flying targets, which is why sea-skimmers were such a huge threat when introduced
desert agate
P-700 uses a single missile as effectively a targeting drone at high altitude anyway
jagged monolith
This is why I'm so obsessed with Ospreyoids on my Kirovoids
desert agate
just feels like a waste of an asset and capability using a helicopter in that role
jagged monolith
Early and mid cold war SAMs also really sucked against low-flying targets, which...
Yes but now dogs and cats do it.
desert agate
not really
sea-skimming missiles are still incredibly difficult to deal with and even American warships struggle with them
chilly osprey
At least for the USN, I'd say your point when missiles became more an AShM defense measure than anti-aircraft measure is around the time you get to SM-2MR, due to the improved seekers versus SM-1 and also the fact you're getting into the VLS era. And Aegis.
And then the USN just goes full Burke SAM
jagged monolith
No I mean any AShM worth its salt is a sea skimmer
autumn sorrel
just feels like a waste of an asset and capability using a helicopter in that ro...
I mean, I didn’t know that Russian have good AWACs, they might use it as a substitute.
jagged monolith
Unless it's Hypersonic
desert agate
the missile guides itself regardless
jagged monolith
In which case Sea Skimming is not good
desert agate
doesnt need a helicopter
jagged monolith
Because it will rapidly become submarine
desert agate
hypersonic ashms are realistically just glorified supersonic ashms
desert agate
hypersonics cant actually see their targets due to the plasma cone that forms around them
jagged monolith
Not so.
desert agate
so they need to slow down to supersonic speeds to spot their targets
which leaves them highly vulnerable to the best radar and air defence system on the planet
manic latch
Cant P-700 use Legenda satellite system? (Before the 1991)
How good is satellite guidance however
jagged monolith
Workarounds have been made and now Hypersonic Terminal Dive is quite possible.
desert agate
neither the Chinese or Russian hypersonics have a hypersonic terminal dive im aware of
maybe theyre working on it
jagged monolith
Tsirkon is old.
desert agate
but the chinese still dont have a hypersonic missile in service
manic latch
China is working of weird stuff for DF-21 irrc
desert agate
Cant P-700 use Legenda satellite system? (Before the 1991)
How good is satellit...
yes i mentioned that
jagged monolith
Meanwhile the Glide Vehicles are another matter.
HGVs frighten me much more than HCMs.
desert agate
hypersonics are ridiculously overrated anti-shipping weapons regardless
autumn sorrel
Didn’t the chinese constantly bragging about their hypersonic missile, the one that they specifically designed to target carrier task force?
desert agate
here is your reminder that the West has successfully developed a missile which flies at low altitude, is stealth, and can detect, identify and avoid radar pickets and figure out which ships are the most valuable in a task force
in fact
we developed two
desert agate
Didn’t the chinese constantly bragging about their hypersonic missile, the one t...
yes but Chinese bragging rarely meets expectations
the Chinese DF-7 which is theoretically in service is in fact still undergoing testing and has yet to be successfully tested against a moving target
manic latch
<:HuTao_Yawn:904020216340676638> hypersonics are ridiculously overrated anti-shi...
Tho a single missile can disable a Ford class if you hit its deck for months right? Doesn't Hyper increase that chance
desert agate
Tho a single missile can disable a Ford class if you hit its deck for months rig...
i would like to highly emphasise the "if" part of your statement
jagged monolith
here is your reminder that the West has successfully developed a missile which f...
All the more vulnerable to interception at terminal by any CIWS which remotely has its shit together.
They all have their uses.
autumn sorrel
I mean, any carrier gonna be disable if a missile hit their deck.
desert agate
All the more vulnerable to interception at terminal by any CIWS which remotely h...
only if you can detect it
jagged monolith
All have their flaws.
jagged monolith
only if you can detect it
Good luck evading a CIWS that conducts sensor fusion in multiple radar bands, optical camera, and all IR bands. You'll need it.
desert agate
i would like to highly emphasise the "if" part of your statement
the Chinese have yet to develop a detection tracking and targeting network capable of effectively engaging enemy task forces at long ranges
manic latch
Good luck evading a CIWS that conducts sensor fusion in multiple radar bands, op...
smh in CIWS range already
desert agate
Good luck evading a CIWS that conducts sensor fusion in multiple radar bands, op...
yes and thats all fun and games until you realise a single squadron of F-35s carries somewhere in the range of 40+ of these missiles
jagged monolith
1 HGV is much more frightening than one stealthy AShM, but injecting 1 HGV into altitude also costs more m o n e y.
jagged monolith
yes and thats all fun and games until you realise a single squadron of F-35s car...
Shoot them out of the sky. We can go on and on but at the end of the day you can't rely on one thing.
desert agate
no CIWS is capable of simultaneously engaging 40+ missiles at close range from multiple angles
manic latch
Which missile was that I forgot
desert agate
Which missile was that I forgot
JSM and LRASM
jagged monolith
HGVs force the enemy to expend high-performance ABM munitions just to try for interception.
desert agate
JSM and LRASM
both the best anti-shipping missiles on the planet
autumn sorrel
I don’t know, I was asking about the P-15 and suddenly I am learning about HGV.
jagged monolith
Frightening, but far from revolutionary.
desert agate
HGVs aren't anti-shipping weapons
jagged monolith
We already know how to deal with them.
desert agate
thus irrelevant to the conversation
jagged monolith
It'll just cost a lot of money.
jagged monolith
HGVs aren't anti-shipping weapons
The Americans say otherwise.
manic latch
both the best anti-shipping missiles on the planet
I bet Australia uses them both
jagged monolith
So does Japan, and so will we.
autumn sorrel
So you‘re saying currently the West have definitely the upper hand over the Chinese?
jagged monolith
Japan is, despite my bashing, actually not stupid and is superior to Korea in military technology in many fields.
desert agate
~~I bet Australia uses them both~~
RAAF has yet to decide on either
RAAF has been heavily involved in the development of the JSM but the LRASM is a better weapon and may very well be the missile chosen
jagged monolith
They know their stuff.
desert agate
both will need integration with our block 5 F-35s however
manic latch
RAAF has yet to decide on either
RAAF has been heavily involved in the developme...
Lrasm looks better ye
jagged monolith
So you‘re saying currently the West have definitely the upper hand over the Chin...
Too nebulous.
desert agate
So you‘re saying currently the West have definitely the upper hand over the Chin...
depends on what fields
jagged monolith
Define the situation.
manic latch
So you‘re saying currently the West have definitely the upper hand over the Chin...
Can't know that without a real fight tbh
desert agate
China does in fact have a lot going for it
at least on the defensive
Chinese A2/AD doctrine will prove incredibly successful in deterring Western incursions into the 1st island chain in the event of a hot war
autumn sorrel
The Americans say otherwise.
Imho, american will say anything to get more fund for their military. Like russian was overestimated until Ukraine and we all saw how Russian was never ready for a modern war.