Considering the current meta
#history
ivory ridge
The Ariete with the Centauro 2 turret would be miles better
And just give us the Centauro 2n in the first place
Is this a next gen MBT 
/s
https://twitter.com/NichoConcu/status/1578028843712946182?t=iRc0OyqQBgBzWhC3lDhj0w&s=19
manic latch
ivory ridge
One day 
Hmm, apparently the companies were booted from the Brazilian competition because they presented a prototype and not a production vehicle
chilly osprey
'What's next for Italy's MBT' I think is a question that the E.I. is trying to figure out too, so, we're not going to know any time soon
ivory ridge
He meant in WT specifically but yeah even irl nobody knows
chilly osprey
Oh, that was the joke
We don't know, the army doesn't know, so like hell Gaijin knows what to do lol
ivory ridge
I always forget how big the B1 and B2 are
strong plank
The council of bombers assembles to pass judgment
tough quail
the future of tanks is the line of lads
ivory ridge
subtle prawn
hushed saffron
why does it have a tree growing out of it...?
desert agate
tepid mulch
why does it have a tree growing out of it...?
The tree is behind the camel
dusty kraken
the future of tanks is the line of lads
This looks more like the future of tanks is a sick LAN setup with da boys
stable ermine
watched the film MIDWAY yesterday. did US fighters not play any major role during that battle?
spiral cedar
They played a very important role
Even if they did not always succeed
The film distorts some things
frigid karma
filmwriters looked at one picture of latewar USN fleet with flak clouds all over the sky
"yep, must be 1942 ijn aa"
spiral cedar
As an example, when Thatch and his wingmen tangled with the Japanese CAP while escorting VT-3, they occupied about 6 Japanese Zeroes for every Wildcat of their own
That sucked up enough Japanese CAP that they had to commit their reserve CAP to shoot down VT-3
That meant no one was watching up when the dive bomber squadrons arrived
strong plank
tepid mulch
Yay
fierce sparrow
subtle prawn
desert agate
desert agate
Brennus
spring briar
desert agate
desert agate
anyone have the pre-dreadnought vs sovetsky soyuz meme/copypasta where she falls apart firing her guns?
nvm found it
manic latch
anyone have the pre-dreadnought vs sovetsky soyuz meme/copypasta where she falls...
Jesus christ 
Why people so butthurt about her
eternal veldt
Tfw a joke started by Phoenix and Shikikaze turns legendary
See what you have done, you firebirb
tepid mulch
Out of boredom I checked stuff and found an early-mid 50s supersonic fighter-bomber comp
Seems simple enough but out of like 6 or 8 contestants, could only find Lockheed and North American submissions
Lockheed's, one crazy and one sane
Meanwhile at North American
Which one of you time traveled and gave em the F-15's plans?
manic latch
Tfw a joke started by Phoenix and Shikikaze turns legendary
Tfw joke is even worse when you Know Soviets actually cared about quality when they refuse to continue on Belorussiya when they realized she used inferior quality rivets
eternal veldt
Or just a total constructive loss?
Given the amount of plates rejected, the plate quality overall is concerning
Not to mention the 420mm itself being 2 210mm plates welded together
cinder escarp
What baffles me is people who write it off just because the armor isn't face hardened, as if that was the be-all, end-all way to build armor.
I stand by my statements that against well-capped, well-designed shells, homogenous armor is the way to go. You don't waste thickness with a pointless cemented layer that just shatters without contributing anything.
(the entire ongoing history of steel armor, which is used all over the place but not at sea against shells anymore, would back that claim up. But the "common knowledge" base of naval armor designers is stuck in the veeery early '40s as that's when development ceased)
tough quail
ive been pointing this out too
cinder escarp
Something that would really throw off old naval armor designers would be like modern Super Bainite armor steel
tough quail
👀
cinder escarp
Back in the old days, bainite was something to be avoided at all cost
Because it's so very brittle it delaminates, cracks, and shatters with ease.
alpine onyx
cinder escarp
But we've taken the bainite phase of steel, but kept the grain so fine that it can't shatter or delaminate, as cracks can't join together.
It hits grain boundaries.
So you get a very hard yet tough steel, with a microstructure that would cause old armor designers to spasm
manic latch
Not to mention the 420mm itself being 2 210mm plates welded together
I don't know if that would happen. Soviets would either try their best to finally buy it from someone or go face hardened like Japanese but worse way of doing it I think
cinder escarp
Here's normal bainite, and the "plates" are vastly larger.
This scale is literally 10x the super bainite pick up there
spring briar
looks a lot like tempered martensite
so if I got it right
they made it so the ferrite in standard bainite becomes marsensite
with bainite plates between those
the bainite keeps it all tough
while the martensite acts as the hardened material needed for armor
chilly osprey
See what you have done, you firebirb
spring briar
What's the barrel life <:MonkaW:779553442308947968>
probably around the barrel life of Littorio
likely a bit less
chilly osprey
Yeah unfortunately I don't think barrel life is given anywhere
spring briar
I'd say around 100 rounds
but I wouldn't be surprised if it was 75
given this was a 1920's gun
spring briar
mhm
very spicy
from like 1926 and onwards the barrel life should increase by about 20
maybe
anyways who wants to see Dingyuan AP
manic latch
Steal it
spring briar
why would I want Japanese shells
manic latch
chilly osprey
Ok that last one is quite cool actually
spring briar
it's pretty weird
this shell's steel acts like the middle of a cemented armor plate
pretty sure this is a 32cm shell from the infamous canet gun armed cruisers of the Matsushima class
subtle prawn
cinder escarp
so if I got it right
they made it so the ferrite in standard bainite becomes mar...
It's actually the result of very carefully cooling martensite with extremely pure, silicon-doped steel.
The silicon doping is key to keeping the ultrafine grain size that makes it work
spring briar
every time I hear silicon in steel I just think about early warship armor
cinder escarp
Super bainite is funny, because both in being bainite in structure and by being silicon-doped it goes against two major rules of what to avoid in good armor steel.
spring briar
and what would those two rules be to you?
I'd assume the high silicon content is a no no usually
and upper bainite is known to be brittle
honestly
sounds like some pepega steel ngl
cinder escarp
and upper bainite is known to be brittle
No silicon and bainite
spring briar
honestly though
depends on the bainite
lower bainite is ok as long as the ferrite is out
somber knoll
Super bainite is funny, because both in being bainite in structure *and* by bein...
ngl, that sounds like a bit pepega process when in the finished product it still has some of the old bainite properties retained. Not to mention the silicon doping, something that even the blacksmiths of old tried to prevent of their steels.
Like, I get it they wanted to have that balance between strength and ductility for armor, but with through-hardening, you can easily play with that when you temper the plate.
(apologies if I'm a bit off with my understanding since I got it when I did some hobby smithing a few years back)
cinder escarp
It's a very strange process but the end result comes out very well
The silicon is normally bad but is critical to the ultra-fine grain size that makes it work, and in this case is a net benefit.
spring briar
never trust the army
somber knoll
What would be the utopic armor
like katana steels. SUPER FOLDED NIPPON STEEL
but to be fair it pretty much depends on what you want to do with it.
spring briar
What would be the utopic armor
austenitic steel
manic latch
~~like katana steels. SUPER FOLDED NIPPON STEEL~~
but to be fair it pretty much...
Taking large caliber hits
BB armor let's say
manic latch
austenitic steel
manic latch
austenitic steel
"usually have the highest corrosion resistance. They are not hardenable by heat treatment and are nonmagnetic"
Wait isn't non hardenable bad
strong plank
me and the boys
somber knoll
Taking large caliber hits
hm, I would say a mix between austenite and martensite, but the latter tends to be brittle, especially untempered, and fully austenitic have this tendency to fracture when it's not Austempered properly.
strong plank
I love seeing the AbramsX pics
knowing that I was at an anime con in that same room like 2-3 months ago
ivory ridge
Weebrams
tough quail
me on my way to slap a chapayev and rossiya decal on the side skirts as an act of high treason
strong plank
do you reckon they open the concession stands for AUSA too
fierce sparrow
ivory ridge
I got a starfooghter
Next plane after this one is the G.55 so it's pog
Centauro my beloved
tough quail
rad
chilly osprey
Nice
shrewd pecan
suppose it looks kinda better from that angle
ivory ridge
@chilly osprey question if you know, what are these 127mm here?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534621810306580500/1029091217469874177/unknown.png
cuz the UP90mod just has the italian 100mm
chilly osprey
I believe those were to be the American 5"/51?
I don't think the /38 was being offered
But it was an American 5"
spring briar
5"/25 as I stated previously
ivory ridge
chilly osprey
Talking about the larger designs offered, but;
maiden citrus
the 1919 5''/51 twin mount
the 1919 5''/51 twin mount is real
spring briar
BuOrd
BuOrd is real
spiral cedar
maiden citrus
average rules the waves fan
must not be much main armament firepower difference between nevada and iowa then either
spiral cedar
strong plank
are they coping that the brits never put decent 16" guns into use
as weren't the guns on rodney and nelson rather mediocre?
maiden citrus
copium of the highest order
and yeah they weren't bad nor good
nelsons had other problems though more substantial
manic latch
IL-2 gunners @tough quail 
tired wyvern
Wait isn't non hardenable bad
no because hardened metal will shatter under force and loses malleability/resistive properties
manic latch
I see
tired wyvern
essentially, a hardened armor would be stronger and have more resistance to a certain point. if it was pushed beyond that, i expect the entire plate would just break and you would lose all of your armor, instead of being able to absorb the hit while keeping the rest intact
chilly osprey
Mmm, this is why even historically hardened armor only have the front layers of the plate hardened, while the back was kept much softer. This meant the plate would be less brittle and ultimately more resistant than a completely hardened plate.
manic latch
Mmm, this is why even historically hardened armor only have the front layers of ...
Homogeneous vs uhhhhh
I forgor
tired wyvern
composite/reactive
tired wyvern
hmm
chilly osprey
Generally it wasn't really called heterogenous
manic latch
chilly osprey
Usually it is simply addressed by what it specifically is, which is what mattered - i.e. hardened/cemented - and the process by which it was done (namely, if it was Harvey or Krupp type cementing).
manic latch
tired wyvern
Usually it is simply addressed by what it specifically is, which is what mattere...
^
manic latch
the Gnevny class Sokrushitelny. Of Northern fleet
Lost to a 11 point level storm while escorting convoy QP 15, when a large wave hit Sokrushitelny and tore off her stern.
Tight bars little man
ivory ridge
spring briar
it was even found that having an extra thick (thicker than usual) cemented face layer on your armor would make it (even if it is WW1 era armor) about as good as compound armor
which was literally a cemented plate laminated with a wrought iron/medium carbon steel plate
literally battle of Yalu river armor with WW1 era steel
manic latch
it was even found that having an extra thick (thicker than usual) cemented face ...
Yo what if you do
Cemented outside
Soft middle
Cemented last
Like this |●|
manic latch
Shatter?
spring briar
Yes
manic latch
Soft doesn't shatter? 
spring briar
The cemented layer on the inside of the ship would just cause massive spalling
Kind of how hardened thin plates at the battle of Pungdo got hit by HE shells ant turned the chinese gun crews into paste
Even the face hardened layers on KC style armor was usually tempered after WW1 to increase its toughness
It also drastically improved the armor protection
tough quail
And since people are apparently confused by this; the title is very clearly in reference to the XM1 program specifically.
it's not a bold statement at all, just literally what happened
it's just phrased as clickbait
which im sure he actually realizes and is playing ignorant about tbf
tough quail
so the usual thing that happens in cold war mbt trials
fierce sparrow
Its good to see poor dalek finally getting back some reputation.
after his infamous F-35 videos... that kinda pissed almost everyone off, despite he is kinda correct on this
tough quail
so basically it got ditched for being too expensive and not good enough
even though the xm1 was also not actually good enough and they had to pile on upgrade after upgrade to make it half decent
all the arguments for the 120 not being an upgrade went up in smoke pretty much immediately after the abrams went into service
essentially it's correct in a bubble and incorrect in the greater context of armor development of the late 70s and early 80s
manic latch
*cries in object 195*
Will hug every died Soviet project in machine heaven one day
fierce sparrow
manic latch
they built a prototype iirc
They did. But could be safe guarded like Buran
Yeah kinda funny to think Buran is actually still protected
There are guards around her location
You can still sneak your way in. But can be oof if caught
tough quail
she'll probably end up in kubinka eventually
tough quail
essentially it's correct in a bubble and incorrect in the greater context of arm...
to give a more nuanced answer it's correct in that the xm1 was a better choice for the US' requirements
but the US' requirements were unrealistic and in hindsight a total mistake they should have realized
which isn't to say they should've went with a leo2 instead
they should've just not penny pinched so obscenely hard on the M1
ivory ridge
which im sure he actually realizes and is playing ignorant about tbf
spookston moment
spring briar
tough quail
aight im definitely not watching 27 minutes of this with how mid the first one was
fierce sparrow
wasteful spending... mentioning Commanche and LCS
ivory ridge
tough quail
yes
fierce sparrow
unborn wyvern
T-14 but epic
tough quail
besides the bit where the turret apparently has jack shit for armor by design
strong plank
still more than armata no?
doesn’t the T14 rely on aps as far as its turret is concerned
tough quail
if it does then it's a case of mutual painful dumbassery
strong plank
Oh wait, so it’s got radar for the back
that makes sense given that the RCWS creates a blind spot for the turret-top sensors (I’m not sure what the technical term is)
tough quail
straight up radar in tanks is always cool
strong plank
Well I’d seen a comment or two pointing out the blind spot
so it’s nice to see that they’ve already got it handled
spiral cedar
Ablative turret is the new meta
presumably you'd wanna pair it with APS that can engage top attack profiles
tough quail
the thing that wigs me out is
okay, there's nobody in there, most of the sensors and the barrel itself are already basically impossible to protect by armor
....
but all the ammo is in this one
spiral cedar
What's the estimated armor protection for the turret anyway
Because surely, at minimum it needs to stop typical APC/IFV autocannon rounds
tough quail
i haven't seen a concrete general rating yet but i'd be shocked if it couldnt, maybe stinky 100mm guns from light tanks ideally
strong plank
the turret doesn’t seem to be much smaller than that of a normal Abrams, so I can’t imagine they cheaped out there
It does also have blowout panels like a regular Abrams
tough quail
im watching the source atm it's an interview
tl;dr
the tank weighs 54 tonnes
and the primary weight saving is pulling most of the armor out of the turret
with a question/statement to the army of "if you want this armored like an abrams turret, its going to weigh like a current abrams"
spiral cedar
I wonder how much the autoloader weighs compared to a crewman
chilly osprey
depends on the crewman
strong plank
Yeah I’d imagine the autoloader adds a chunk of weight
tough quail
its in line with current asian mbts weight wise
but instead of no side armor its no turret armor
strong plank
I guess that kinda makes sense if they did reuse a chassis they already had
maybe they figure prospective clients may favor hull armor over turret armor
it is a technology demonstrator after all
tough quail
(the hull armor isnt good either)
the more i think about the stranger a choice it is, the turret cant be hidden like the hull is and even with the blowout panels a penetrating his is going to put the tank out of action if not total it
tough quail
it really do be like that
frigid karma
and good god instagram's media player is even worse
switch to another tab for a second and it restarts
strong plank
Ok so basically he says they removed the turret armor with the expectation that the army would probably add however much they want back on
Which makes sense from GD’s perspective
Basically giving them a bit more flexibility
tough quail
correct answer is probably put all the armor back on and eat the weight or peel it all off and go with a carousel and beef up the side armor a bit
spiral cedar
Give each turret a random amount of armor so that the enemy won’t know if they will overpen or bounce 
strong plank
I mean I really doubt the army’d go with a carousel
frigid karma
Give each turret a random amount of armor so that the enemy won’t know if they w...
latewar germany moment
strong plank
given experiences from desert storm and [current event]
tough quail
its definitely a better option than this layout
frigid karma
if the army wants to save weight though, it's likely for a reason
strong plank
Transportability most likely
tough quail
though obviously i mean the armata style where its tucked into the back and miles from the crew
frigid karma
and they judge that reason to be more important than taking mission kills / total losses through turret penetration
if i had to guess, the weight constraints came specifcally from having in mind amphib operations
strong plank
I mean with the bustle autoloader+blowout panels, if the ammo detonates you’re still only losing the turret, no?
spiral cedar
I say we go to the good ol’ days South Dakota standard. 18” front, 9.5” sides, 12” rear, 7.25” roof, no compromises
frigid karma
then again, i'm not a tank expert
tough quail
a t-14 is around that 50-55 ton mark too so shifting the autoloader into the hull and keeping the turret slim is definitely an option
tough quail
I mean with the bustle autoloader+blowout panels, if the ammo detonates you’re s...
no
frigid karma
we're long past calling them landships jaba
spiral cedar
frigid karma
go sit on your boat
strong plank
should I be concerned how quickly you had that image pulled up
tough quail
or your crew if its turned the other way around for some reason
...and i dont think blowout panels like
work at all if they're penetrated from the front
so you're likely losing everything
strong plank
I’d assume whoever’s designing it has some insight in what direction the army’s looking in their design studies
Hence the emphasis on shedding weight and increasing range
plus if the army looks at the lack of turret armor and considers it a problem(which they probably will given their penchant for prioritizing crew survivability) then it’ll be addressed in whatever design they do adopt a few years from now
tough quail
well yeah
im not saying they're gonna use it
just the idea is currently uhh
dumb
frigid karma
work at all if they're penetrated from the front
i mean, a lot of the systems of the tank probably can't cope with frontal penetration
At that point, there's not much in the way you can do to stop a misison kill at the very least
tough quail
well yeah but a frontal pen is just going to kill everyone inside
since there's actually a direct link to the crew and the turret so a guy can still climb in
which is probably why the turret didnt shrink at all
frigid karma
yea
do we know if the crew has armored compartment
i haven't seen that comparison to t-14 yet
tough quail
i like the redundancy of being able to do a manual takeover of the turret but with a bustle autoloader is compromises the crew protection
unless there's an enormously beefy hatch there
i'd be VERY surprised if they didnt have a compartment like that though
tough quail
i'd like to think it's just what you'd expect by default
if its thats
a weird waste
like yeah sure its not as vital without an internal autoloader but side pens still exist
plenty of flammable shit to tuck behind a bulkhead
but i guess they wouldnt be able to get into the turret then
frigid karma
if i had to guess, the drop in weight is likely a necessity for future amphibious operations
the US wouldn't see any reason to drop armor besides that
spiral cedar
Isn’t it an offer for the army rather than the marines
tough quail
they always say army yeah
spiral cedar
A light tank may fit their mission profile, but 50+ tons probably not
So I doubt this is targeted at them
strong plank
I mean the marines basically said “if we need tanks, we’ll get the army to do it”
So it could have amphibious stuff in mind while still being for the army
frigid karma
if the marines needed an armored breakthrough tank suited for amphibious operations, they'd need tank that hit the compromise between crew survivability and weight
and i suspect they designed some of the aspects of this tank with this in mind
since the marines might need to borrow tanks from the army, army always needs to keep marines in mind when asking for tanks
strong plank
Well no qwerty they wouldn’t borrow tanks from the army
They’d get army units to conduct whatever operations they’d need
lapis elm
Ok I found this awesome book on Convair delta-wing aircraft called Convair Deltas: From SeaDart to Hustler and I luv it.
Found it a few months ago at Moffett Field in CA.
Yes I like these concepts very seggsy and mhmmm yes submersible plen
Experimental aircraft/aircraft models are awesome
This photo of a seaplane I never knew existed, the XPY-1 Admiral (as it says in the picture caption).
Hmm I wonder where the R3Y got it's lines from.
subtle prawn
Volta is seen here arriving in Portsmouth in August 1939. On board was Admiral François Darlan, who was due to attend a joint conference with his counterpart in the Royal Navy to discuss naval dispositions in the event of a war against Germany. Note the flag of Admiral of the Fleet – a tricolore with crossed anchors in the centre – flying from the foremast top. (US Navy NH86544, courtesy of A D Baker III)
spring briar
subtle prawn
manic latch
The initial project of Kirov was based on the design of the Raimondo Montecuccoli cruiser , but the final project was created on the basis of a theoretical drawing of the Eugenio di Savoia cruiser, a further development of the Raimondo Montecuccoli cruiser. A complete package of technical documents for the ship was purchased by the Soviet side from the Italian company Ansaldo.
zealous vine
Do torpedoes actually spread like in majority of naval games? (launch at 1 go, spread out like a shotgun.. I don't think that's how torpedoes travel?..)
I know they'll stray off their course midway by nature, but they don't immediately turn after they land in the water, right?
eternal veldt
Torpedoes have gyroscopes to set them on their course once they land in the water.
That's why you have a couple unfortunate cases of the gyroscope malfunctioning, circling back entirely and crippling the launching ship.
HMS Trinidad, USS Tang being the famous examples.
zealous vine
so that even supports that they otherwise should travel wherever is pointed..
(ignoring malfunctions)
zealous vine
WoWs' French double-funnel, won't that just increase top-weight, along with hindering the capabilities of equipment on the aft mast more (since the smoke now blocks a wider area of view)?
Is there any nuance to it other than looking fancy?
eternal veldt
If you're referring to the atrocious abominations on Partie and Conde, I'm very skeptical of them
The main advantage I see of splitting the funnel like this is attempting to divert smoke away from the rear group of directors
but quite frankly, I don't understand the rationale behind it; just use the tested and proven mack systems on Richelieu and the subsequent Saint-Louis class
Stacking directors like this is already pointed out as "not the best" after Richelieu's experience at Dakar
I've bugged people if there's any precedent for split funnels like this for French ships, haven't got an answer
strong plank
so it's just a Lesta™️ moment
chilly osprey
ivory ridge
ivory ridge
junior trench
unless there's an enormously beefy hatch there
???
unless there's some hilarious level of overmatch against the armor array, a HEAT jet or KEP once penetrating is rarely going to able to punch through an armor array, a relatively large air gap, and have the energy left to also go through even a relatively light armored bulkhead
War Thunder damage/penetration models are hella scuffed and need to be absolutely purged from popular perception
junior trench
work at all if they're penetrated from the front
because this is absolutely not true
junior trench
...and i dont think blowout panels like
.
manic latch
junior trench
there's a reason why you can just put a few angled steel plates at a certain distance from your tank's armor an expect it to severely degrade a KEP's performance
KEP's aren't exactly robust penetrators like "normal" AP
spiral cedar
Do torpedoes actually spread like in majority of naval games? (launch at 1 go, s...
Torpedoes of the WWI-WWII era generally travel in a straight line, but navies deliberately spread their salvo out over several degrees to increase the chance of a hit, due to the risk of errors in the torpedo solution as well as the likelihood of enemy maneuvering. The only reason you would not is in effectively a scuttling scenario where you just want to launch two torpedoes at a static ship at short range to put it to the bottom. Otherwise, you launch over a spread of a few degrees to increase your hit chance
junior trench
and "normal" AP is already more fragile than anyone realizes
i.e. those funny shots in games where a solid shot AP passes through some thick frontal armor, through the crew compartment, and into the engine?
those don't happen unless there's some ridiculous penetration vs plate thickness overmatch
manic latch
Stalinium rods 
junior trench
go away
manic latch
spiral cedar
Torpedoes of the WWI-WWII era generally travel in a straight line, but navies de...
And yes, torpedoes did have the ability to be set by gyro to follow a specific course after launch (often used by underwater torpedo tubes), and some navies did develop torpedoes with more complex movements (e.g. back and forth wiggling) to increase hit probability, but the basic idea is still that you want to spread out your salvo
junior trench
it can easily backblast and burn your engine to a crisp too
okay?
that's kind of just the cost of doing business?
it's turning a penetrating shot into ammunition into a scenario where the crew is highly likely to escape and the tank can possibly be recovered
meanwhile the T-14 you slavishly drool over will still launch it's turret into orbit and set the engine and fuel tanks on fire, but that's just normal and fine because it's Russian I guess?
also I guess it's a good time to take another cheap shot at your favorite tank being an utter failure to arrive and are currently being run around in fields sounding like their engines are about to die
manic latch
also I guess it's a good time to take another cheap shot at your favorite tank b...
Man it's not like AbramsX will ever be on field tho
Isn't she just a tech demonstration
manic latch
Wasn't that about uhh
Autoloader choices for unmanned turrets
junior trench
???
junior trench
ok, cool
manic latch
junior trench
the points remain for a bustle autoloader in an unmanned turret
tough quail
go touch some grass instead of having a day late meltdown over a tech demo you apparently dont even like
junior trench
regardless of how utterly stupid the unmanned turret is to begin with
manic latch
when people fight for warmachines harder than the warmachines
subtle prawn
manic latch
https://twitter.com/ryszardjonski/status/1579863353560043520
God I love it
It's a big shoot me
tough quail
i love he
spring briar
meanwhile the T-14 you slavishly drool over will still launch it's turret into o...
as long as you manage to pen it
am I as sceptical as you about monolith tho?
yes
atleast in terms of APFSDS pen reduction
also my condolences for limited APFSDS length on Abrams
manic latch
also my condolences for limited APFSDS length on Abrams
"You get used to it"
manic latch
krem
T-14 will still launch it's turret and that's bad
Dunno man KF51 may do it too. Given she likely has hull ammo
manic latch
if she does I'm gonna cry
I think it's classified
Now we know Turkish Leo2A4s did
Since they lost their turrets
spring briar
I mean
that should've been obvious
spring briar
I hoped that with the bigger shells they'd finally remove hull storage but guess not
junior trench
10 more in the hull
spring briar
sigh
junior trench
this drops to 10 in the turret 10 in the hull if you take the drone/ATGM pack thing
which is stupid
spring briar
ah yes
relatively more hull ammo
junior trench
also my condolences for limited APFSDS length on Abrams
?
manic latch
I hoped that with the bigger shells they'd finally remove hull storage but guess...
Isn't that hard
Bigger shells= shell take more space= need to find more space to have more shells
junior trench
in a bit of an esoteric sense, I guess that's the case
tough quail
you're kind of limited in how much ammo you can fit into an autoloader
spring briar
I mean
it is an issue
they are minmaxing apfsds now within the same dimensions
tough quail
unless you make some weird double length ultra bustle
manic latch
I mean
it is an issue
they are minmaxing apfsds now within the same dimensions
Rich
What if
Foldable APFDS
spring briar
structural integrity is a thing
manic latch
spring briar
with pivots
frigid karma
Seems kinda stupid
spring briar
it is
manic latch
How would you fold a shell
It's a rod. So easier
frigid karma
That makes it even worse bro
manic latch
frigid karma
manic latch
tough quail
this is the most pot meet kettle ive ever seen
ivory ridge
junior trench
I mean
it is an issue
they are minmaxing apfsds now within the same dimensions
considering those dimensions are almost a meter in length, there's a lot of life left in there
manic latch
Bit hard to tell if he’s actually joking sometimes
That's my secret
I'm always hor- happy person
manic latch
ivory ridge
spring briar
considering those dimensions are almost a meter in length, there's a lot of life...
I’m not denying that
Especially since the amount of russian tanks supposedly capable of resisting it is like 1
manic latch
What bout China
frigid karma
Not sure about type 99
spring briar
What bout China
Not a chance
junior trench
Does relict era even give apfsds protection anymore with the new tip on us apfsd...
no, lol
also the tip isn't new
frigid karma
Type 99 data is almost entirely classified and I wouldn’t put it past the Chinese to leak fake data, but I doubt the armor is all that good
junior trench
the funny segmented tip on A3 that fucks both ERA and Leo2 style wedges has been a thing since '03
tough quail
type 99s are just another eastern european t-72 upgrade kit but now it's in asia
manic latch
With new I mean current apfsds
Aint last the last one is m289A4
spring briar
Oh it was on the A3 already?
junior trench
A4 is a bit of a mystery
manic latch
junior trench
A2 is the funny one that's just so fat ERA doesn't work on it
A1 is the funny one that massively increased penetrator length compared to everyone else the first time
manic latch
A2 was for Kontakt
spring briar
5 or 1
junior trench
5
spring briar
manic latch
5
spring briar
Hehe
junior trench
1 doesn't do shit to begin with
junior trench
wut
manic latch
Wait
junior trench
A2 is for Kontakt-5
junior trench
also it turns out we finally got a confirmation what the tip on A3 and probably A4 is
it's not steel
it's WHA
spring briar
Finally
ivory ridge
vacuum one because the design cost went in the oligarchs pockets
manic latch
A2: Counter Kontakt-5
A3: Counter Kaktus ERA type future style Eras
A4: ???? Likely Armata one
junior trench
it makes a wider hole in armor arrays than DU due to the way it ablates
ivory ridge
kaktus 
junior trench
which means the tip clears a wider hole for the DU to enter
spring briar
the funny thing about using WHA for the tip section
Mushrooming
It also supports the DU
Reducing fracture from initial contact
strong plank
Isn’t a chunk of armata’s protection reliant on hardkill aps? Or am I thinking of something else
manic latch
kaktus <:5Murm:905511190845878272>
Thicc
manic latch
Isn’t a chunk of armata’s protection reliant on hardkill aps? Or am I thinking o...
Wiki says she does have Afghanit hardkill APS
For speeds of 1,700ms
Up to*
junior trench
(stolen)
manic latch
ivory ridge
and other jokes you can tell yourself
frigid karma
1700m/s APS?
manic latch
and other jokes you can tell yourself
I mean there was Arena APS in 1990s. It dissapeared. Maybe turned to Afghanit in time
frigid karma
Huh
manic latch
1700m/s APS?
Incoming projectiles of 1.700
Like if enemy shell is slower than that
It will destroy
spring briar
Isn’t a chunk of armata’s protection reliant on hardkill aps? Or am I thinking o...
Which is why it will still be in danger of launching its turret
Since that aps does not have a 100% reliability as some love to claim
Especially vs darts
frigid karma
Doe people seriously claim that?
junior trench
might as well put this here
M829A3
Depleted Uranium alloy Main Rod with Tungsten Alloy Tip Section
General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems "Patent US6662726B1"
spring briar
Doe people seriously claim that?
Ofc
junior trench
just to emphasize
there's been funny anti-ERA tandem APFSDS
since 2003
there's been tandem APFSDS prior to that, but that was because the Russians were incapable of designing a monobloc penetrator
strong plank
Which is why it will still be in danger of launching its turret
Since that aps d...
Well also I bring it up bc it intercepts projectiles with a projectile of its own right
spring briar
there's been tandem APFSDS prior to that, but that was because the Russians were...
And adding steel sleeves to apfsds over their entire length
junior trench
it intercepts projectiles with an explosion and fragments
strong plank
so that’s something that would have to be replenished over it’s use
strong plank
which then adds another logistical requirement
junior trench
and needs absurdly precise electrical fuzing/timing/quality control and the hardware and software to pull it all off
which are things absolutely no one associates with Russia
not even the Russians
manic latch
Arena APS of 1990s Dissapeared eventually with 2000s
junior trench
disappeared to line someone's pockets
manic latch
dusty kraken
why would I need a line of APS in my pockets
manic latch
why would I need a line of APS in my pockets
One ARENA costed 300k$
spring briar
why would I need a line of APS in my pockets
Someone might want to hit you with a shaped charge warhead
manic latch
Afghanit doesn't aim up (enough)
Doesn't Armata has auto smoke launcher for heat seekers?
manic latch
Doesn't Armata has auto smoke launcher for heat seekers?
Javelin use heat targeting no?
manic latch
What I thought Javelin used heat seeking can't sensor detect her projectile while on way
manic latch
What I thought Javelin used heat seeking <:Sadge:757500586777116752> can't senso...
Oh yeah Javelin does use IR
spring briar
Javelin computer tells the missile the heat signature, the missile just tracks that
manic latch
Can you fool that with smokes?
tough quail
just get out of the hatch and punch it
spring briar
With really good anti IR smoke sure
tough quail
based france wins again
manic latch
With really good anti IR smoke sure
Anti IR..is that like cold smoke smh
Or super hot smoke
manic latch
Ye
strong plank
why would I need a line of APS in my pockets
puts wallet into pocket
aps system deletes wallet
spring briar
But no, the smoke has special anti IR elements
Like I’d have to look up what exactly
Now armata is supposed to have smoke that both covers the IR and visual spectrum
But idk
frigid karma
Missile can also be dumb fired
So if you have an idea of where they are in the smoke then you can just point and shoot
strong plank
I don’t think dumb-firing a top-attack missile like Javelin would get you the best results?
spring briar
Missile can also be dumb fired
Stugna but you are aiming at a cloud challenge
junior trench
the smoke cloud needs to be vertically large enough to block LOS from a diving top attack missile like Javelin
which is...
it isn't happening
tough quail
i think thats gonna take a hot minute with a missile
strong plank
Just have a really tall ladder on you at all times so you can look down through the smoke
junior trench
so you need to have special smoke for that that explodes high and also doesn't produce heavier than air smoke
tough quail
LEGENDARY ANTI-TANK GUNNERS ON STILTS
strong plank
Get one of those fucky prototypes the Brit’s had
spring briar
so you need to have special smoke for that that explodes high and also doesn't p...
which is why I doubt Armata's smoke being that big of a game changer
strong plank
with a TOW launcher on a long crane arm
junior trench
which just leads to a whole bunch of trouble
because first you need to actually detect a passively guided ATGM
frigid karma
LEGENDARY ANTI-TANK GUNNERS ON STILTS
junior trench
then second you need smoke that both blocks IR and stays in a position where that matters
spring briar
enough jada jada about smoke logistics
let's talk about the ERA coverage of Armata's turret roof
manic latch
so you need to have special smoke for that that explodes high and also doesn't p...
Wiki says this
The tank is also equipped with the NII Stali Upper Hemisphere Protection Complex, which consists of two steerable cartridges with 12 smaller charges each, and a turret-top VLS with two more similar cartridges, corresponding to the vehicle's soft kill APS.
Additionally, using the AESA radar and anti-aircraft machine gun it is possible to destroy incoming missiles and slow-flying shells (except kinetic energy penetrators).
spring briar
yeah uh
junior trench
here's some examples of IR smoke comp
you'll note things like
"these don't stay in the air for too long"
and
"wow, those are a lot heavier than air smoke mixtures"
spiral cedar
What if you just hook up an industrial fan to a fog machine
manic latch
I guess with captured stuff. Russia should have idea on testing if their soft kill works or not against NLAW and Javelin
spring briar
spring briar
*APS radar
manic latch
Ain't APS radar is the AESA radar
spring briar
Defense Update released an analysis of the tank in May 2015, speculating that Afghanit's main sensors are the four panels mounted on the turret's sides, which are probably AESA radar panes spread out for a 360° view, with possibly one more on top of the turret.
spring briar
Uralvogonzavod just doesn't care
manic latch
I just hope they test Armata's APS systems with captured anti tanks
Then improve on it etc
spring briar
you know what russia could do
become a NATO member
become trustworthy
and get trophy APS
manic latch
become a NATO member
become trustworthy
and get trophy APS
Isn't Trophy Jewish
And Israel ain't nato
Hmm
manic latch
strong plank
NATO can have a little Trophy every now and then as a treat
junior trench
Then improve on it etc
that requires assuming they can actually do anything about it with their level of expertise, technology, motivation, and funding
so
lmao
spring briar
I have no words
manic latch
I have no words
Wow
junior trench
name and shame! name and shame! name and shame!
spiral cedar
railroad track armor, what is this, 1864
manic latch
When you need 14 inch gun to penetrate Enterprise
spiral cedar
Gotta love the imaginary loss of PoW B turret as well
spring briar
also why censor
he used my full name before "as a metallurgist"
manic latch
When you need 14 inch gun to penetrate Enterprise
She had +400mm armor thus explaining her 8 nuclear reactors
spiral cedar
ah
spring briar
he might be a metallurgist
but he doesn't have a gist of knowledge on naval armor
or nickel steel
mf nickel steel
literally in use in the 1880's
sigh
metallurgist
spiral cedar
Being a steak chef doesn't make you an expert on the history of phó
spring briar
I just sent him the navweaps article on post 1930's british KC armor and told him to piss off
also did Eugen knock out PoW's turret or was that another bs claim
spiral cedar
Gotta love the imaginary loss of PoW B turret as well
.
spring briar
ah
ok
thought so
spiral cedar
don't, they'll enjoy it
spiral cedar
Methinks someone made a typo
spring briar
spiral cedar
shrewd pecan
dual SIG MG338s
maiden citrus
When you need 14 inch gun to penetrate Enterprise
it's over!
maiden citrus
yes we are not building any ships in this weight range (they are heavier than that), lol
spring briar
Axis shenanigans
subtle prawn
Commissioned into US Navy service in May 1942, Wahoo has had a phenomenally successful career. Her skipper, Dudley Walker Morton, has made a name for himself with his aggressive tactics. Before departing Brisbane, Australia, on his first patrol as commander in January 1943, he declared that the submarine was expendable. Any man who did not wish to sail under that assumption could stay ashore.
This attitude brings impressive results as Wahoo preys on Japanese destroyers, freighters, and submarines. By the time she goes down, the submarine is credited with 19 vessels and nearly 55,500 tons sunk. This makes her the most successful submarine in US Navy history.
But Morton’s legacy is tainted by an incident on 26 January 1943. After Wahoo sank the transport ship Buyo Maru, Morton ordered the boat to surface and machine-gun survivors in lifeboats. This was a breach of the Hague Convention of 1907. The situation was made even worse because some of the men were British Indian Army POWs under Japanese guard.
Wahoo’s downfall comes after she sinks the steamer Konron Maru, on 5 October, killing 544. The Japanese Navy seeks vengeance on the US submarine force. Today, Wahoo is spotted from the air. She has already been damaged by a patrol boat a couple of days ago. Now, destroyers and aircraft hunt her down with bombs and depth charges. Eventually a Japanese aeroplane scores the kill.
Her loss spooks the US Navy. No more submarines will be sent hunting in the Sea of Japan for quite some time.
Photo: USS Wahoo at Mare Island Navy Yard, California, United States, July 1943.
Source: United States Navy via navsource.```
spring briar
frigid karma
be British pow
your Japanese prison ship sinks
swim over to the sub
watch the machine gunner get possessed by the spirit of a 1776 American revolutionary
maiden citrus
allegedly
maiden citrus
ship log and a high ranking officer say it was a warning shot against the japanese troop boats who then fired on them
zealous vine
Torpedoes of the WWI-WWII era generally travel in a straight line, but navies de...
👌
desert agate
This fucking channel sometimes
spiral cedar
?
spiral cedar
subtle prawn
ivory ridge
manic latch
@spring briar
Useful cross section of an earlier iteration of the Rheinmetall muzzle induction fuzing system for airburst ammunition.
The red outlined, black segments of the model represent the induction rings that measure muzzle velocity & impart time of flight data to the fuze.
spring briar
VT fuze old
the future is now
manic latch
https://warthunder.com/en/news/7899/current/
Oh gawd
Bismarck is very close ain't she
Gaijin almost released all the ships in the data leak
spring briar
ivory ridge
ivory ridge
Bismarck is very close ain't she
solid mango
Idk why that "And look down" made me laugh
manic latch
Gigachad
frigid karma
rare w from the snail
subtle prawn
spiral cedar
The name "British" should be capitalized, as it is a formal name. Just like American, Canadian, Dutch, etc.
A…kinda strange thing to get at the beginning of an email reply 
The name "British" should be capitalized, as it is a formal name. Just like American, Canadian, Dutch, etc.
I did not know the information given for the 12" US AP shells prior to 1916 when the 12" Mark 15 MOD 6 Midvale Unbreakable AP shell was introduced, making all prior 12" US AP shells instantly obsolete. All later 12" AP shells were the MU shells, so I think that older shells, either earlier Marks or 12" Mark 15 MODs 0-5, were declared Unserviceable and removed from the US Navy inventory within a short time after mid-1916.
I do not know if Crucible Steel made any 12" AP, but I would bet that all pr0blems noted by me for the Bethlehem 14" AP designs were also happening to their 12" AP. In addition, if any of the 12" Mark 15 MODs 0-5 versions were made by Midvale, I would assume that they would usually pass the 10-degree spec, though possibly with some failures. The fact that the Midvale-made US 8" Mark 11 MOD 0 AP shells of 1911 were found to be almost as good as tha 12" Mark 15 MOD 6 AP when retested during and just after WWI, shows that the improvements for the Midvale 14" experimental AP shells of 1910 s-pec design were being implemented in the other sizes, almost completely in the 8" shells the next year and partially prior to 1916 and completely for the MOD 6 versions of their 12" Mark 15 shells in 1916. Note that there was an almost identical-in-design 12" Mark 14 AP shell, so I think that the difference between then Mark 14 and Mark 15 was likely just the new 10-degree test spec requirement.
Note that only Bethlehem complained about the new 10-degree test spec for any size shell that they and Midvale made. As mentioned, its armor quality control circa 1912 was shown from the plates taken from OKLAHOMA after Pearl Harbor to be very poor, so having poor projectile quality seems merely "par for the course" for them. Since you do not know what ships had the shells made by which manufacturer, perhaps you need to roll a die with a 50/50 chance (or worse, depending on how many each manufacturer made) of projectile body breakup during penetration at 5-15 degrees penetration angles (over that and the soft AP cap does not work for any of these shells).
As for British and US naval 12" and 13.5"/14" AP shell comparisons prior to 1916 and the British "Greenboy" improved APC shells introduced after Jutland (mid-1917 and after, depending on the shell size), we have some conflict as to what the s-pecs meant.
US Navy specs were for the shell penetrating the armor in an "Effective" (British "Fit to burst") condition where no damage occurred to the middle body or base so that the explosive filler was not compromised nor, if used, the base fuze damaged (I do not think that they tested these shells with either an Explosive "D" (ammonium picrate) filler or non-delay base detonating fuze inserted (no delay was the standard US pre-end-of-WWI and British pre-Jutland type and only gave about 0.003-second between imp[act and full detonation, where British Lyddite virtually always detonated due to excessive sensitivity, but very insensitive US Explosive "D" had problems getting full detonations until 1928 when Tetryl high-power boosters were developed -- only Germany started to use rather poorly-designed and unreliable delay-action modifications with black-powder wafers in their latest 1911 and after APC shells).
The US did not test for bare penetration in any condition nor for merely holing the plate without completely penetrating it. However, the British tests were different: They had three levels of projectile performance, but only spec tested for the lowest, at right angles to the plate face prior to the Greenboy APC shells. These were:
(1) "Penetration" Limit (US Navy term "Holing" and US Army term "Army Ballistic Limit*"), whereby the projectile barely punched a hole entirely through the test plate and the condition of the projectile was not important. (*This included for the US Army spalling on the inside of the armor that caused significant damage behind the plate even if a hole was not made entirely through the armor plate.) This was the minimum used to test armor.
(2) "Perforation" Limit (US Navy "Navy Ballistic Limit"), whereby the projectile barely makes it entirely through the armor plate, no matter what damage it has suffered. This was the minimum used by the US Navy to test armor.
(3) "Fit-to-Burst" Limit (US Navy "Effective" Limit), whereby the projectile passes through the plate at the minimum velocity that would allow it in a naval battle where it hit the given plate at the given angle to detonate properly by fuze action. This was the only one the US Navy tested projectiles for.
Prior to the deletion of Lyddite and the introduction of delay-action fuzes (the optional delay version "D" of the APC Number 16 Base Fuze), the British test specs for their older APC shells (this was known by virtually none of the ship or shore personnel using these pre-Jutland shells or developing tactics with them) did not care about internal enemy ship damage caused by the shell impact energy or its filler explosion. The spec said that the shell was to make a hole at or below the waterline through the armor belt t9o cause flooding of the ship. Remember that when HMS WARRIOR was built in 1860 all "AP" shells were solid shot, mostly cannon balls, so any talk about how the shell's filler would work after impact was not even conceived of. It turned out that up to Jutland nobody had changed the spec!!!
After Jutland, when the Projectile Committee went to find out why more British ships had sunk than German ones in that battle, they found out that the then-current APC shells were still being designed and tested to that 1860 spec! The P.C. people found out that the shells were designed and spec tested ON PURPOSE to explode while they are still imbedded in the hull waterline belt side armor or, at worst, just on the far side of the side armor. This would cause the maximum flooding effect from such hits, but only if there was np internal armor to limit the damage to the hull side. Since modern (WWI-era here) warships had such internal plating and/or multiple watertight compartments, this in WWI had the result of MINIMIZING the damage to the enemy ship, not maximizing it. Up to then, delay-action fuzes had not been used (other than as a secret by Germany after 1911) due to the problems with reliability (US problems with getting Explosive "D" to detonate reliably with the rather weak HE materials used in boosters at that time) and, with British Lyddite or other nations that used similar fillers (most, other than Germany of the US Navy), due to the filler detonating all by itself also at about 0.003 second after impact, fuze or no fuze, when penetrating such armor. Thus, for all pre-Jutland British APC projectiles, the concept of Fit-to-Burst quality was a rather lower standard than with US or German or post-Jutland British AP shells. Also, British Greenboy shells were tested at 20 degrees and the original 12" Mark IVA APC shells, which were cast rather than forged to a tougher body strength like the bigger shells, could not remain intact on hitting any armor plates much over 8" at 20 degrees, as was found out after later testing againstthicker plates.
I hope this helps with some of this messy situation.
Nathan Okun
@spring briar
Here’s what I got back
Some stuff is repeat from what I’ve gotten before, but there are some new details
Before I reply back, any extra questions I should add for clarification?
maiden citrus
interesting stuff
spring briar
Before I reply back, any extra questions I should add for clarification?
I’ll read it again thoroughly tomorrow morning
But nothing new for now
spiral cedar
mkk
spring briar
that's been mentioned before tho iirc
I barely read about british shells after all
Let’s not forget the british tests on russian 12” shells
Where russian shells penetrated the plate without shattering despite having a far longer body!
Compared to the british short 12” apc shattering! during penetration
!
spiral cedar
❗
maiden citrus
!!
spiral cedar
My main takeaways (aside from stuff already seen before) are:
US switched 12” AP manufacture to Midvale sometime in 1916, and no later 12” AP Mark 15 was manufactured by anyone other than Midvale after 1916—there is also a subsequent presumption that the older 12” AP stocks were removed from Navy inventories within a few months, though this isn’t directly implied to be documented.
Bethlehem was the manufacturer with the severe issues at 10 deg obliquity, whereas Midvale did not have the issues. Crucible Steel probably had similar issues with its 12” AP as Bethlehem did with its 14”, probably due to inexperience. Midvale’s 8” AP in 1911 was of the same good quality as their later 12” AP in 1916, which shows that Midvale’s 1910 experimental 14” AP was guiding their design of 8” (by 1911) and 12” AP (mostly by 1916) as well.
There was a similar 12” Mark 14 shell that probably was not designed with the 10 deg spec in mind.
Bethlehem was the only manufacturer to complain about the 10 deg spec, presumably because they kept failing it. Their armor QC seems to have been similarly poor at the time, as in 1912 the plates they made for Oklahoma were of poor quality, suggestive of a low quality standard company-wide at the time. Okun’s suggestion is, since the shells were largely randomized when issued, to simulate the Bethlehem shell issue by giving an extra 50% chance for the body to break during penetration in the circa 10 deg range (5-15 deg).
US and British AP shell requirements are not directly comparable in the pre-Jutland era because they had different specification standards. The US required shells to penetrate in “effective” condition, and had no standard for “complete but ineffective” and “holing but no complete penetration.” The UK had 3 tests, but only actually required shells and armor to pass condition (a) below, and at right angles, until the Greenboy in 1918.
a) Holing - British shell and armor spec. Just need to be able to see light through the plate; shell condition not important.
b) Complete pen - US armor spec. Shell gets through plate, condition not important.
c) Effective pen - US shell spec. Shell gets through plate with no middle body, base, cavity, or base fuze damage.
Thus one cannot directly compare penetration velocities between US and UK shells of the pre-Jutland period, because they are testing for very different end states of the shell and armor. The British pre-Jutland shell spec was lower than US, German, and post-Jutland standard due to the lack of “fit to burst” requirement.
Greenboys were tested at 20 deg, and the original 12” Greenboys could not penetrate 0.67 caliber armor at 20 deg (curiously, this is the German 1911 standard—0.67 cal at 20 deg).
spiral cedar
What ships were using 8” guns in 1911 tho 
spring briar
Acrs?
maiden citrus
yup
spring briar
Or they were manufacturing it for Russia
spiral cedar
Penny class ACR I guess?
maiden citrus
another w for pennys
🐴
spiral cedar
mhm
spring briar
USS Brooklyn was the only US ship to be designed with her turrets in a lozenge arrangement. Thanks to the extreme tumble home of the hull, the wing turrets could fire directly forward and aft. She put this to good use at the Battle of Santiago, where her captain, Francis Cook, reported that "our tumbling-in sides enabled us to maintain continual fire while turning."
Tumblehome W
spiral cedar
2500 fps, compared to the 2800 on the later /55 cal guns with the same shell weight
spring briar
It could also have been put into storage first while the usn used up its existing stock of old 8”
Or have been export
spring briar
That’s pretty much what was on the french pre dreads
spiral cedar
Lotsa flare out amidships yeh
spring briar
The tumblehome hull and "lozenge" arrangement were rare in the US Navy, but at the time were prevalent in the French Navy and in French-designed Russian ships, such as the French Magenta and the Russian Tsesarevich.[8]
Tsesarevich which was built in france
spiral cedar
What year be it
spring briar
Mid 1880’s probably
maiden citrus
1984
spiral cedar
The staff plans assumed that Japanese torpedoes would begin to strike the oncoming American heavy ships about twenty minutes after the vanguard fired its torpedo salvos. At that moment, Japanese battleships, having approached to within 35,000 meters of the American battle line, would open up with their main batteries. Using aircraft as spotters, the Nagato and her sister ship, the Mutsu, could inflict significant damage, the navy staff concluded, starting at 35,000 to 34,000 meters, while the American battle line would not be able to respond until about 31,000 meters, the assumed range of the Colorado class.
spiral cedar
Wish usn projectiles had rebated boat tails
iirc Bill Jurens said that US and UK shell designs were not optimized for range because they wanted a mix of anti-surface and anti-air performance
spring briar
Excuses
spiral cedar
In principle this shouldn’t really stop them from making BB caliber shells of different design, but idk maybe they didn’t want to make new drag functions for them
spiral cedar
In WWII or later?
spiral cedar
Rounds were normally 5.25crh. Some rounds may have been slightly boat-tailed.
for 5”/38
spring briar
maiden citrus
spiral cedar
gotta get that speeen
US 5”/38 shell weight (AAC Mark 35) - 55.18 lb, 7.25 lb burster
JP 5”/50 shell weight (Type 1 HE Common) - 50.7 lb, 4.86 lb burster
Now I wanna see a cross-section of this Japanese AA HE shell
The cavity must be rather mediocre
spring briar
Lots of packing around it too probably
spiral cedar
butt plug
spiral cedar
time to see if the USNTMJ has a cross section for the Japanese one
spring briar
But why? it doesn’t need delay fuzing
Avoiding burster from contacting the steel shell
Need gypsum
Cloth
Balsa wood
Mir
Gold
And frankincense
spiral cedar
Even Shimose could be fired out of the gun just fine...
spring briar
Mhm
spiral cedar
Did Mikasa have any cross sections for her shells
spiral cedar
gotta love shell death from nose breakage
spiral cedar
Get dat Shimose action
spring briar
And black powder
Shimose was used in the ap and black powder in the he
But shimose had a tendency to blow up in the barrel
So at tsushima most shells fired were black powder filled HE
spiral cedar
Not sure which exactly, but I guess shell wall thickness? Doesn’t seem otherwise inherently different
spiral cedar
Shorter makes sense since they are about 9% lighter
subtle prawn
spring briar
I will reveal my mini shell collection
maiden citrus
richie collected sea shells by the sea shore
dusty kraken
can you fire them out of a mini battleship
maiden citrus
spring briar
can you fire them out of a mini battleship
yeah I can do miniature scale tests with them on cardboard
dusty kraken
sick
maiden citrus
would be glorious