Crimson Festival (2026)

[regal tangle]

But you don't make the trip daily....and I don't either lol

[noble kestrel]

I do cross that portion of 290, 5 times a week, just being lazy about it 🤣

Most of the time you're scouting so I don't bother 🫡

[torpid bluff]

Does the crimson chaos scroll effect dungeons or only world farming

[final skiff]

it affects dungeons as well

(at least the event encounter part...)

[flat bluff]

So you can play non event and still see event enemies?

[final skiff]

as in non event dungeons? Probably not. It just seems to increase frequency of event encounters if they are toggled.

Did a quick test a few days ago, averaged something around 26 crimson monsters without and 34 with. Quite noticeable even without taking numerical data

[fervent dawn]

did that replace the event mobs from the fool event, or were they extra?

[regal tangle]

As in if you run a regular horde dungeon it increases the % of event mobs from 30 per dungeon fk 45-55 per dungeon

[tough jasper]

Now that I've acquired Crimson Aura II, I can see what this centaur guy is about but first, here's what I'm enjoying about the event so far:

• The expanded questline and lore
• Arena of Finesse being more active than ever before, and all of the attention that brought to live PvP (both the good and the bad)
• As a player who is constantly low on Arena Tokens, having them added as loot for event mobs is much appreciated; It kept a feeling of forward momentum since farming for tokens didn't mean I was missing out on essences, etc.
• Flairs and auras purchaseable with in-game currencies are always great to see

[arctic mirage]

What? How is this possible

[final skiff]

beo lol

[flat bluff]

Pet and player's dmg count as 2 different instances and both have separate 50% dmg cap

So if you have no starting ward and/or any heal - you can get annihilated in 1 turn

Even then, player can use ds3 and act twice, resulting in 4 dmg instances before your turn even begins

Welcome to BoF

[arctic mirage]

Bullshit.

But thank you for explaining

If other classes are able to skate around the rules then there should be no rules at all imo 🤷🏿

[pure sinew]

Odie has been working on it so far but it sounds like Beo’s issue is a bit more complex or such is my understanding

There are far fewer ways around the rules than day one

[flat bluff]

How to counter:

• use manticore eyes so that pet hits like a wet noodle (especially if no tamer spec on enemy)
• use starting ward and preferably ward to hp amity/item (or generally tankier build). When going for turn 1 kill, usually, both dmg instances are not high.
• equip more foresight to act first

[pure sinew]

In the meantime, there is that ^

[sage schooner]

Also keep in mind it's easter weekend so probably not being worked on til next week

[arctic mirage]

Totally understandable...but if the rules are no one can hit passed 50% that should include pets as well....seems like an crazy oversight

But it is what it is

[sage schooner]

Arena pvp was pretty much nonexistent before this event so a lot of these issues are only just coming to light now

[flat bluff]

BoF is not perfect, second chances and turn manipulations are also a balancing issue there

[sage schooner]

A lot of issues were already fixed day 1 so I have faith that balancing will continue after the weekend is over

[arctic mirage]

I understand just my rant 🙃 just crazy to run into this 😅 can't be mad at people using what's available to them

[pure sinew]

Also as silly as it is, you can go Inquisitor and Rebuke or Forbid someone - or bring the offhand Finn’s spear for Impale to watch them all hit like wet noodles but that’s assuming you go first and bring some status chance gear

[sage schooner]

Also if you blind them their pet generally can't hit you

[arctic mirage]

Y'all are 100% right but I won't have the funds to rework my whole build but so far this event has opened my eyes on things I didn't think of before

[warped zinc]

I find it weird that gilga doea not use the best solution to that strat.

( ward dmg> healing

[old escarp]

I realy enjoy playing BoF too and i think its a good idea that you need to grind alot for that aura. But it feels crazy that you need 60 Wins for one super raid. Most of the playerbase got realy good builds and with a winrate of maybe 50% to 60% you need almost 120 fights. thats also realy time consuming for 1 scroll.

I can see why people get the aura and afterwards leave BoF again.

Maybe you could add more Proofs, if you are on a winstreak. Like with the proofs of sparring

[fierce tartan]

Nothing in the bof market isnt really worth the crimson tokens honestly.
Maybe if it had some exclusive accessories for lower tiers and up

Stuff you won't see til next Crimson event

[sage schooner]

I've just been using crimson proofs to roll ferocious bulls eyes so I can use my cerus essence to buy lerna scrolls

[fierce tartan]

I loaded my map with a bunch of fools and then will work on hoarding lerna scrolls til mimic comes around and steals my attention;D

Begging the universe to put windtamer shield in the mightiest mimic pool

[regal tangle]

i cant seem to find anything other than pockets of 3x regular cerus, i stayed at one for 15 minutes killing all 3x t6 cerus but they just keep respawning, i cant seem to find anything other than t6 cerus. i have found 3 different nests all with 3x t6 cerus each

[regal tangle]

in theory its an okay idea but they do seem to load in slower while driving, but you can see them from 2x your view distance away. The fact that its a static 3x cerus at the only 3 places i found is a bummer, its cerus for everyone everwhere? Cause if you find a pocket of 3x t9 cerus it could be great (or t9 ares)

[hollow adder]

I've seen 2x Cerus when using the scroll at home. Haven't tried elsewhere yet.

[onyx knot]

I'm in a wv and I don't think the scroll of crimson chaos is working. The screen isn't red and I have very limited event mobs with all the good boosters running. Id love to see it more like a rift break since you need to craft it.

[pseudo lagoon]

My only critique of this event:
Why make it a whole month main event thing? I get that we dont have too much pvp content and PVP content deserves some attention and love and this event basically makes BoF quite alive and well. Please consider adding something crimson related to Colisseum/Conq next time, that would make it a bit more diverse.

Please also next time consider making it a 2 week long secondary/background event with, for example, Sisters of Morrigan/Wyrmhunt/Giants&Titans running as a main event, running BoF for the whole month is just meh 😕

[open wave]

Cretan Arrows;

Fun, new passives, I like the ranger spec stuff released on new super raid

Feels like a melee side grade for windtamer shield, which is really fun to see.

As it stands, it feels like a stepping stone before getting a 2h slice weapon, or a 2h aoe weapon.

Low ward and locked to 2 max targets puts it in the "I have no use for it" category, but I can see it being a viable replacement for people that haven't found a Gandring or Ymir/ double trev build yet.

The fact that it's tied to a super raid makes me wish it had some more oomph, but I can definitely see it serving a purpose in the early T10 world for those that have missed events etc. Not every new weapon/item needs to be the new meta.

New t.crit^^ adornments;

I haven't had a chance to really mess with these a lot, but I love the idea behind it. It opens a lot of doors for new builds, with high risk/high reward style returns. It's really interesting to see a new crit adornment release following the eyes of sekh we got gifted last month.

[pseudo lagoon]

Id not call it an alternative to windtamer shield, cus windtamer shield offhand skill has one of the highest penentration in game and hits up to 3 enemies with chain damage 4, while this is max 2 by default and maybe 3 with chain damage

[open wave]

It's a melee offhand that can cleave, similar to windtamer being a magic offhand that can cleave. That's the comparison

[pallid maple]

TIL that even I have been blocked by Merrrr

Thanks, it's an honor

Regardless whether he wants me to reply or not, I don't really care.

The Blades of Finesse part of this event is just a small extra thing, the event can be interacted with without touching BoF at all (and in fact, that is the optimal way to interact with the event from an efficient standpoint)

[open wave]

It would be cool if the arrows were closer on par to AV3/AV4, since you're not weapon locked to those cleave style spells and not spec locked like Zwei, but it is what it is

[pallid maple]

I agree with you that the arrows are still really disappointing

They went through basically two iterations of being "buffed" without addressing the underlying reason of why they're underwhelming in the first place

[open wave]

Time will tell, I suppose!

Ravage met the same fate lol

[regal tangle]

I feel i am in the same boat. PVP aura - check, 100 scrolls for each of the 3 mini bosses check, 100 scrolls for super raid check....and i dont even want any items from the super raid at this time. I was hoping they would get a tweak/bump to make them actually worthy of "super raid status" but currently i feel like its just a way for them to block new raid items from showing up on monument guild.

The adornment pretty much feels like a Summoner/BEOA thing honestly, the -Dex feels way to harsh for any other classes to use

Also with mimic being the second half of the month....i feel april is a very slow month:-p both feel like mini events to begin with

[open wave]

I like the trade off, lose some dex, gain some accuracy and 50% crit (corvus classes can utilize it well)

For an early T10 that didn't get eyes of sekh, I can see them having a decent use for say early level RS raiding/dungeoning or other crit based classes.

Is it great if you've been here for other events? Eh.

Is it good if you've missed a lot of other events prior to this one? Yup!

[regal tangle]

Dex adds to acc though

[open wave]

it does, but it also adds to dodging. The way I see it, with the malus of it, you just dodge less and hit about as much as you did before

[regal tangle]

As a beoh, -50 dex is huge :-p if i put 8 of them on my armor...id be at 0 dex and floor my ACC ;-p

[open wave]

thus they have a fun malus to work around haha

[fleet rose]

I will say though, I’ve always loved the idea of crit chain. I like that they jumped back into a mechanic that hasn’t gotten any love in years. It’s definitely a bit underwhelming but possibly good for an early t10 setup?

[open wave]

"fun" maybe interesting is a better word

im trying to approach all of this new gear from a different perspective lol

[regal tangle]

I feel like crimson could have benefited from a monument treatment, you already have 3/4 paths ready, but i also get not wanting to do the same thing 2 months in a row.

Ill have to take a drive a lunch and see if i find any new world raids, cause last week it was all cerus

[open wave]

Just the T6 version?

[regal tangle]

yup

[open wave]

thats all i ever saw

[regal tangle]

Same, i would see packs of 3x t6 cerus

it would be neat if they could be any of the 6 raids , just sit at a cluster blasting all 3 mobs hoping for a t9 spawn

something besides jus t6 cerus

[open wave]

a lot of people that recently started around pax and maybe a week or two before are going to get a chance to see them and participate, so it makes sense.

I hope they continue adding mid-game progression stuff to keep the new people interested

[regal tangle]

im fine with that too, but make it be all 3 t6 raids at least :-p

[open wave]

amen

[regal tangle]

if they are gonna be inclusters of 3, no reason each one cant be different

[low galleon]

Definitely, I mean normal chaos scrolls offer a variety of raids tbh

[marble osprey]

my guess is there are a lot of old cerus's in the system to churn through first, since it used to be the only raid in the event

[low galleon]

Can't see why the event chaos shouldn't be the dame

[marble osprey]

all crimson raids do already seed in crimson chaos

[fleet rose]

Does that include Centaurus? Or are super raids excluded?

[marble osprey]

just normal raids

[fleet rose]

Thank you for the information god king Odie

[regal tangle]

Ah so its clearing out the system of old raids 1st, i must say i am guilty. I have 40 t6 cerus at my base i need to clean up still. Guess its back to blasting them all :-p

[marble osprey]

were they summoned before 2021?

[regal tangle]

probably not, but i should still clean them up :-p

[open wave]

How would that work

crimson scrolls shows us raids that were summoned a long time ago?

[marble osprey]

essentially any raid tagged public that also does not have a logged summoner is now considered a community raid

which, back in 2020, is how any publicly summoned raid looked

[open wave]

Aw I see

[cursive roost]

just curious, what will happen after those raid are finally cleared one day? will the community raid stop spawning?

[fleet rose]

The system starts spawning new ones

I believe Odie said that early in this chat

[pallid maple]

It's a shame the vast majority of raids people want can't be public anymore. Special scroll raids can't be public and anguish raids can't be public

What Odie said about Cerus reminded me about how we had New Hampshire Cerus raid clusters going back in 2021, where a few high level players spawned Cerus publicly and left them there for people to tag for a while

[fleet rose]

It’s really unfortunate for trades as well. You have to stay in party to see anguished trades.

[pallid maple]

That community stuff can't happen anymore 🙁

[marble osprey]

should anguished be public-able? i think all the issues that made it a concern are fixed now

[pallid maple]

Please!

[hollow adder]

Since the adjustment, how does the centaurus eye feel? Does the proc feel like 5%, and do multiple adorns sum up the proc chance?

[shut tinsel]

I have 10 in my raid loadout against centaur guy and I'm getting the buff fairly consistently, enough to rely on it buffing me while I cast DC

[open wave]

I ran 5 in my RSC loadout for a bit, they proc very often it seems

[fleet rose]

PLEASE make anguish raid able to be public.

[marble osprey]

okay, only because you asked

#patch-notes

[open wave]

Wow that's great haha

ill have to revisit the cretan arrows

I still feel like they are handicapped at only bouncing once, but from a newer T10 perspective, they are a nice alternative to windtamer, and I like crit chain stuff.

[shut tinsel]

All we needed was for you to become dadgalol

[open wave]

https://klipy.com/gifs/so-bouncy-alex-honnold

[fervent dawn]

nice.

Still not sure how useful the accuracy on the adornments will be,
but it is at least probably not net negative on accuracy so worth at least considering now for normal skills accuracy.

Thinking about it a bit more,
afaik 30 dex adds 1% to the hit rate,
but 1% accuracy actually multiplies it by 1.01
so in some circumstances you may still be at a net loss 🤔
I'll have to run the numbers when I have more time.

I understand that the status protection and crit chance are also supposed to be features (possibly even the main features)
but status protection doesn't seem too useful since I'll probably just have immunities to relevant statuses
and the T. Crit++ is only a 5% chance so i'd rather just get consistent crit from other adornments personally.
So for me personally, the main feature is the %accuracy.

[hollow adder]

The t. crit++ proc isn't practical for classes that require consistent crit. The only realistic use cases are for setups that can't have consistent crit through gear, so that leaves you with lessening reliance on Disocuri Mead or just adding a new buff in a few setups:

• Beo follower raiding with followers that can crit.
• GS spreading another temp buff with summon damage setups.

Maybe the classes that do the crit temp buff upkeep thing could leverage it, but I doubt they'd wait for a proc when they can just throw a dioscuri mead.

[fervent dawn]

oh right, GS can spread the buff

yeah, for beo could be OK with ASG

if you're not running Inquisitor for Inquest already

[shut tinsel]

When the buff procs it's better than dioscuri because we can DC then Sharpen 2 reliably. Using the potion in addition would mean one of the buffs can fall off. So far I like the adornment for anguish raiding to cancel out the accuracy malus

[hollow adder]

I see it as inconsequential. You are going to over-dex raids to the point where the accuracy malus doesn't really matter as you climb in ALs. That also doesn't factor in how you are stuck with dex anguish bonus on your chest and usually accuracy on your helmet.

Maybe it'll let you get away from the accuracy on helmet for more follower act?

[shut tinsel]

As far as I know dex doesn't counter the - accuracy malus, just accuracy does. It's mostly an issue with rs2 having -10% accuracy on top of anguish

[hollow adder]

So you can't ignore -acc with a dex gap above 1200?

[shut tinsel]

I didn't think so. I normally sit around 3500 in my raid setup and still notice misses if I don't have +accuracy, but that's just my experience

I understood it as you get -accuracy after dex is counted for.. is that wrong?

[hollow adder]

I recently found a link to a google doc posted by Goody Phil that shows testing about this: #811254572042420245 message

1200 dex gap gives you 99% to hit and 40% to dodge, and when I used the calculator tool on the 3rd tab putting in a 1500 dex gap with -1 acc still shows as 99% to hit.

Could be a limit of the tool or that it doesn't correctly account for negative accuracy, but I just assumed that you can over-dex the accuracy malus.

[hollow adder]

Oh nevermind, looking at it again I must have missed putting in the negative. Looks like the malus is just tagged on the end, so the calculation happens before it enters

That's a derp from me

[shut tinsel]

If it was simple there wouldn't be all this research into figuring it out

[hollow adder]

I'm just glad people actually post links to their research, it's hard to find and then remember how some of the mechanics work when I don't worry about them often.

[shut tinsel]

So ye, I have 6% on my helm for raiding and 10 adornments atm, so +16% accuracy counters the -accuracy from realmstrikes 2 and anguish malus, meaning I can comfortably run any gear now rather needed a riftrogue piece

and dex is (mostly) useless in raids for corvus

[hollow adder]

I guess that is actually a point in favor of the adorn, once you have a useless amount of dex the dex malus doesn't matter.

[hardy wagon]

I'm getting an interesting distribution of the kinds of Sets that Event Mobs form in monuments.

Perseus Apostle - 311 Killed
  Aries Apostle - 309 Killed
  Cerus Apostle -  79 Killed

Cerus,  Pers,  Pers - 79 Sets
Aries, Aries,  Pers - 45 Sets
 Pers, Aries, Aries - 44 Sets
Aries, Aries, Aries - 33 Sets
 Pers, Aries,  Pers - 32 Sets

This isn't really an issue for this event, given they only drop Tokens and Chloris, but I found a similar uneven Horde Set distribution for The Mischevious Clurichauns's mobs Aine, Finn, and Conall. Same Common Rarity among them, but fairly different important drops.

However the Sets are generated for Monuments, event and non-event, its not very random.

[regal tangle]

Are you running all 4 path in the monument? cause i found with clurichauns different sets were more common in different paths

[hardy wagon]

yup, since the start of The Crimson Festival: 10 Beast, 13 Mage, 19 Warrior, 2 Thief

[regal tangle]

New community raids appear in clusters of 6-7 now and can be seen from 2-3x view distance cap....but its still all cerus :-p there must be a hefty back log

[forest sphinx]

Same, all T6 Cerus so far

#1488938979796582633 message

[regal tangle]

Odly enough, after killing 20, all but 1 stopped respawning.

Never mind, lol, as soon as i put my car in drive, 12 more spawned

well my suggestion would be let 50% of the community raids be "new" spawns, instead of making us clear out a surpluss of 1000s of t6 cerus :-p

[regal tangle]

57 raids down. Still all t6 cerus

[open wave]

943 more to go!

[regal tangle]

All I know is there must be a really happy "blade Master of inferno" because I have finished at least 20 raids that he tagged

[open wave]

Reraise out in pvp, so now it's mostly just Beo / Pet Turn 1 cheese left right?

[pallid maple]

And that has some counterplay, especially if it's the only cheese you need to play around

[open wave]

[tribal olive]

Rejoice

[tribal olive]

Yes beo turn 1 stuff has counterplay at least its the lowest concern imo

Please provide feedback in this new meta with way less cheese than before

[regal tangle]

every thought this month was a crimson festival, in reality its just a live beta for updating BoF :-p

[open wave]

i like it, april is turning into a chiller month overall

[stray kayak]

its so peak

classic monday odie W

[regal tangle]

sadly i see no difference in raids

cleared 12/12 t6 cerus in the node

[pallid maple]

Better keep killing those T6s then

[regal tangle]

respawned them via kingdom, and its 12/12 t6 still

[pallid maple]

From the sounds of things it might be just you working through them

[regal tangle]

true but patch just said it increased the variety

[tribal olive]

#1489270856889794741 message

Updated list of bof improvements

[odd stirrup]

Reraise was taken away from all pvp?

[tribal olive]

Yes

[regal tangle]

yup

[odd stirrup]

Bummer. It was fun fighting them.

[tribal olive]

You are a minority

[odd stirrup]

I may be indeed.

[mossy raven]

Lol, even i never use reraise but removing from pvp is just telling to the players who really grinding for that there is your time wasted.

[pseudo lagoon]

Sorry for ping, please add to that that apex is not charging from beo's follower hitting for shittons of damage

[regal tangle]

sounds like a job for beast taming adorns

[tribal olive]

No thank you for ping

Ill add

[pseudo lagoon]

Thanks a lot mate

[tribal olive]

Please ping me for these things

Hard to parse through without

[tribal olive]

Its still very useful for pve

[pseudo lagoon]

Nah i dont have problems with beo, except when that beo has higher fs than me (1100+)

So wasting slots on manticore eyes , at least for me, is not a topic

[regal tangle]

3 rounds of killing 12/12 community raids since the patch....still 100% t6 cerus, back to dungeon grinding i go

[tribal olive]

Yeah i dont have any problems with beo. Its kind of an all in build so has tons of glaring weaknesses

But it still bypasses the house rules and things should have fair treatment across the board

[regal tangle]

agreed

[mossy raven]

Pve, needs more buffs?

[regal tangle]

without a new carrot to chase (pvp or pve) people will get bored, things dont need to stay the same for funsies

[pseudo lagoon]

Btw s2ivi - in my opinion when there are no live enemies available it would be good to replace the regular BoF npcs with the crimson mobs, but maybe buffed?

For the duration of the event at least

[odd stirrup]

Event mobs would definitely be a better option.

Would have been better to nerf proc chance of Reraise imo, rather than full removal.

[pallid maple]

I think Odie didn't want to nerf it more for PvE

[pseudo lagoon]

Yeah to add a bigger fail chance

Like 50/50

[odd stirrup]

That was an immediate removal following event though. Those that caught the carrot had it jerked out of their mouth before biting into it.

[mossy raven]

Then the game need content, no nerfs?

[pseudo lagoon]

" TMM cast Reraise.....but it failed"

[odd stirrup]

Yes, something like that.

[regal tangle]

odd is still have the boots in my inventory, nothing was removed from me....and i can still use them in other content... blance is needed, even if it looks like a nerf to those abusing it

[odd stirrup]

Even 20% proc chance would have made it at least a somewhat viable gear.

[pallid maple]

It was definitely the most extreme solution, but we've had quite a few discussions where many people are not fans of the RNG-fest brought on by reraise in PvP

[regal tangle]

when something is OP / Broken and people are abusing it, i see no issues with 'nerfs' balance is a needed part of a game to keep it healthy

[pallid maple]

A good PvP setup could have the RNG not-die dice rolls of:

• Second Chance
• Reraise
• Parapet
• Pet block

All at once

[keen parrot]

It needed to go. It was too abusable, especially on second chance classes.

[regal tangle]

Thats the only issue left, parapet and second chance have cool downs after they proc, pet protect doesnt afaik

[pallid maple]

Pet block can also be bypassed, Parapet can be (somewhat) played around with damage % done

[regal tangle]

pet block can be bypassed by flasks....not really sure what else there is

[odd stirrup]

When did that happen? I get parapet back to back and 2nd chance back to back still. In BoF, Wars, Legacy, Conq, and Arena? Or is it like 2 parapets can be back to back but not a 3rd and 3 or 4 2nd chance can happen back to back?

[pallid maple]

Strikes of Ursa, perfect shot, coup de grace (but why would you use coup de grace)

Bolt 4 as well

[regal tangle]

odie has said that after it goes off the 1st time it has a reduced chance to go off a second time, it can still go off back to back but at least its a reduced chance

[keen parrot]

Doesn't seem to work on deity... I know the rate is lowered on heretic.

[stray kayak]

imo I agree with another community member in saying that immortality should not be a status effect anywhere

but I guess we can still have it for pve

it really has no place in pvp

even if it was fun for you to play around

[regal tangle]

clearlly we just need to nerf diety again! It is monday so i dont see why not!

[marble osprey]

it would be impossible for this mechanic to work on one class but not another. it's agnostic to what class the player is using

[pallid maple]

I think it's the same mechanic that causes Counterattack to trigger every time my opponent uses it but hardly ever when I use it

[regal tangle]

lol or that parapet/second chance procs on defense 10x more offten then my offense :-p

[stray kayak]

same thing here - that stuff should be once per battle

[odd stirrup]

Hmmm... if we can't use sandals in pvp, can we open that gear up to be used by all classes?

[keen parrot]

I guess I always seem to be on the bad end of second chances against deity characters. I see a better mix against other heretics.

[marble osprey]

cognitive biases are really real things

[keen parrot]

Of course, this is selection and cognitive bias.

[regal tangle]

to avoide bias, how many t6 cerus should i kill before i expect to see something else in community raids :-p

[marble osprey]

4

[regal tangle]

ah well im at 36 🙁

[marble osprey]

dont question it

[keen parrot]

Get to 42

[marble osprey]

sorry, i meant 4 more

[regal tangle]

40* more

[marble osprey]

40 total is fine

[keen parrot]

But then he wouldn't have exhausted life, the universe, and everything!

[regal tangle]

thats 42

[keen parrot]

Exactly!

[regal tangle]

https://tenor.com/view/life-the-universe-and-everything-hitchhikers-guide-to-the-galaxy-whats-wrong-gif-10792058352574137929

[onyx knot]

Was apex bypassing the house rules fixed yet?

[pallid maple]

If DUrsa (-50% Apex Power) bypassing house rules with Apex (all heavily reduced damage in PvP) is our biggest problem, live PvP is in a good place

[marble osprey]

i don't think apex currently can break the house rules

[pallid maple]

Not truly bypassing house rules, but they can get an extra turn

[regal tangle]

well I did a 4th set of 12, and am at 48 t6 cerus. Ill let the bull rest for now, he looks tired

[stray kayak]

i think they can channelus on their 2nd turn into a 3rd turn

it does require getting smacked turn 1 and 2

[onyx knot]

Channelalus on turn 2 taking them to turn 3 instantly

[pallid maple]

They can use an offensive spell to get someone lower than 50% HP then use a real attack

[stray kayak]

same concept as flasks

[pallid maple]

Basically, yeah. Flasks but worse (but functional)

[onyx knot]

still needs to be fixed

[pallid maple]

I wasn't saying it shouldn't be fixed, but if that's one of the biggest offenders then BoF has been heavily improved

[onyx knot]

It will be if its all thats left

[marble osprey]

yeah, they just end up with the first turn of round 3, as far as the game is concerned

same topic as an above convo from the weekend

it's not that it's a house rule thing, it's that rounds in orna are not ideal

to visualize what i think we're talking about:

Round 1:
Realmshifter Reggie: attack
Deity Dorothy: attack
Round 2:
Realmshifter Reggie: attack
Deity Dorothy: apex, gets next turn
Round 3:
Deity Dorothy: attack and wins
Realmshifter Reggie: ded

and what the community may expect:

Round 1:
Realmshifter Reggie: attack
Deity Dorothy: attack
Round 2:
Realmshifter Reggie: attack
Deity Dorothy: apex, gets next turn
Deity Dorothy: attack
Round 3:
Realmshifter Reggie: attack
Deity Dorothy: ...

[open wave]

I see

[onyx knot]

So was this fixed already so it doesn't give them turn 3 to 100% you turn 2 their 3rd action.

[regal tangle]

i think the issue is when Diety goes 1st it goes D R D D - done, then R only had 1 action

[marble osprey]

for this to be "fixed", orna needs to have the whole "rounds" concept implemented

[onyx knot]

We fixed flasks already how is this different? Maybe apex moves dont give another turn in the first two turns rounds of battle.

[marble osprey]

i'm okay with disabling the extra turn in the first 2 rounds

[onyx knot]

Next we just need to cap 50% damage for player and pet first 2 turns and I think were pretty balanced

[marble osprey]

yeah, that would require the "rounds" thing.

essentially it would mean any forms of damage within the round could not sum up past the 50%

we could then bring the turn shifting mechanics back

[open wave]

Im open to experimenting

[onyx knot]

It would be tough because you dont want to limit team damage to only 50% for 2v2s and 3v3s only a single player and pets damage.

[regal tangle]

hm so like a debuff on the beo, where if they deal 50% dmg, their pet has 0% act rate for 1 turn.

[onyx knot]

would need to be no damaging spells that turn. Not everyone runs pets to damage but if it cant act it wouldnt be good.

[regal tangle]

well ya but most of the people breaking t1 dmg limits are using pets that only attack for a reason

[onyx knot]

But others that swing and do 50% still want their pet to use ward spells or buffs.

[regal tangle]

T. Brynhildd that lasts 1 turn

[open wave]

O man, a frozen mammoth for the first turn

[onyx knot]

Its got to be easier than that tho.

Like after you receive 50% damage you cant receive any more damage from that player or that players pet that turn. So it doesn't hamper 2v2s and 3v3s

[regal tangle]

I tried.... Still just t6 cerus....maybe the increased variety was the people who had already tagged them 🤣

[tribal olive]

Yes this is basically what happens. Avoidable if you don't attack the dursa but thats a horrendous way to play around it. Pretty much the same problem as heretic flasks though just charges differently

This and the beo instakill are the main problems outstanding with a few HP bugs involved with summoners and their turns

BoF has been significantly improved over the last week though, so thanks a bunch for the attention to all of this 🙏

[tame iron]

That sounds complicated maybe just delete deity?

[tough jasper]

It's niche and not really a solution but I bring an Amity with an elemental malus on it so I can charge Flasks without dealing much damage or triggering redline abilities/giving Apex meter.

I've only experienced Deity getting Apex early like that when we're both aggressive or they Quad/Ursa Edge themselves, which allows me to kill them anyway.

I would rather encounter a Deity than a Beowulf, but I understand that not all classes have the same tools and amities are a huge limiting factor too.

Definitely agree on the PvP changes and improvements! Sad to see Reraise completely removed but it was a pain to deal with.

[marble osprey]

yeah good call

[open wave]

Gilga ded after this patch, may as well take deity with it

[ivory cloak]

On top of this idea, if it accounted for the amount of players, it would ideally do up to 50% of a players health bar that many times. E.g. as a 3v3 if 2 people attacked 1 enemy (assuming no themis heart) they could still pull out the kill allowing foresight advantage to sustain. Also still allowing for the 3rd player to do 50% damage to one of the remaining enemies (or the third hit on a themis heart user)

2v2 would be 2 instances of 50% hp etc including pet damage

Rounds are something i have found to be a necessity for a long time, so anyway to introduce rounds-while also allowing for group play to sustain-is just as important

[warped zinc]

That is horrible idea

[regal tangle]

Only if your a beo abusing turn 1 damage. If you read on we already discussed that something like t. Brynhild would be better, but the majority of people abusing it at the moment are beo using pets with only offensive actions

[sage schooner]

One turn KOing with pets isn't even only a beo problem, I've gotten a few with Timber on my RS lmao

[warped zinc]

just general question. What would beoA do on turn one? watching others do this smacking on him knowing that my pet does not hit turn1 is just death for beoA/ pure pet beoO

[regal tangle]

But thanks to built in limitations of turns in general they can't just 0 out pet dmg

Use a pet with buffs
Buff yourself/pet if you know your pet can hit 50%

I faced plenty of beo who didn't abuse it and they faired really well

I faced quite a few beo capable of buffing for multiple turns without dieing.

[sage schooner]

Beo abusing mammoth db spam + pet block is arguably WAY more annoying than beo abusing turn one KOs

[regal tangle]

Exactly

They are also able to 0 out MC and RS

[warped zinc]

Removing pet action from turn 1 would mean that beoA cant do bof anymore

Which imo is worst idea ever

[sage schooner]

Literally no one is advocating for removing pet action though

[regal tangle]

Not removing pet action....just offensive pet action

[warped zinc]

This looks like removing action rate imo

[regal tangle]

Again....keep reading past that 1 sentence

[regal tangle]

See

[warped zinc]

Why the fk would i want t. Bryndhild on beoA

BeoA wants his pet to attack

[regal tangle]

So your pet can still act without breaking the 50% limits

[warped zinc]

BeoA's offencive stats are not that good to justify this slaughter

[regal tangle]

False

[warped zinc]

Show me a 0Al beoA that actually deals 50% dmg on turn 1 without pet

[regal tangle]

Tons of beoa and other classes are 100% able to hit for 50% DMG on turn 1 then have their pet do another 50%

[warped zinc]

Only build that comes to my mind is verse crit. But why on earth i would use that shit on beoA

[regal tangle]

If they can't do it...as you falsely claim, then a t brynhild buff that triggers once the player hits 50% wouldn't affect you anaway

The why is simple....to cheese bof and win on turn 1

[warped zinc]

i will just delete bof guild if that shit gets in to the game

[tough jasper]

Literally anything, Odin. You know how to play this game.

[warped zinc]

that literally removes the tool for beoA to go offencive route. and literally forces to stall

and you do know that ppl love beoA stall builds

[tough jasper]

If stalling is what you choose to do, sure. I said "anything." 🤷🏾‍♂️

As if a bunch of status effects/death by DOT isn't already a stall tactic lol

[warped zinc]

well ity literally is beoA's only option. buffing dmg is a waste on turn 1 bc turn 1 pet cant attack and turn 2 there is still 50%dmg protection so beoA just dies. so basicly this forces beoA to 1. pick ward pet or use woO t1. 2. bastion with ymir coiled as oracle. 3 "offencive" CA2 as assassin to try to punish ppl for attacking turn 1.

[warped zinc]

this 0% attack chance would destroy dot builds bc those actually require aaru viper to use Miasma3 on turn 1 which is an attack

or impale for dmg reduction

which is also an attack

aaruviper would literally do nothing on turn 1

[native cove]

Welcome to the life of a heretic.

[native cove]

I was trying to use the pet u are using.... Damnnn how did u win..

[warped zinc]

knowledge

[regal tangle]

are you hitting for 50% dmg before your follower acts with your dot build, cause i dont remember you hitting that hard, and i dont remember dieing turn 1 to any dot builds. The main culprits were beaver, bloodwarg, and mamom acolyte

[warped zinc]

with a crit i do

[regal tangle]

so why should you be above the rules?

[warped zinc]

well my build has like 5% crit

i would like to my pet to attack turn one bc my dot build relies on my dmg+pet dmg +dot finish

[pallid maple]

Instead of removing pet act, I wonder if Odie could batch player and and follower turn damage together and just only allow the follower damage to do the rest of 50% that the player didn't do

Opponent has 10k total HP

• player does 4k
• only 1k of the pet's damage goes through

But that way any buffs/debuffs from the follower still happen

[warped zinc]

well even if it worked like that i could still bacisly turn 1 ppl 😄

[regal tangle]

Im fine with the pet buffing/debuffing, as long as its not doing damage that turn (miasma 3), let it apply the dots sure, the issue is that the current cheese is mostly rs/diety/beo w/e are doing 50% dmg and the pet follows up with 50% dmg,

Player does 5k
Pet does 4k + applies dots....if odie could 0 out the up front dmg, sure, but i dont think he can based on past conversations in this thread.

[warped zinc]

miasma 3 is not buff/debuff its a spell.

[regal tangle]

i know.... thats why i said if he could 0 out the upfront dmg while still letting it dot....

[warped zinc]

i mean simple fix would be to disable all dmg from turn 1

that way everyone is forced to do preparation for turn 2

woO, ca, debuff/buff whatever

[round wave]

i have a cool idea now we can only do 50% current hp damage and it's not limited to 2 turn

[warped zinc]

I have better idea. Lets delete bof guild so no one needs to cry about balance

[vestal token]

BoF even less rewarding lol

[vestal token]

No, lets delete the house rules and make it a coinflip that is proud of itself.

Or at least add a branch with no house rules...

[warped zinc]

Yea imo no house rules and no def/res decay

[native cove]

I just realize that the reraise pet will failed to cast reraise.

I thought that it will just be removed.

Now I can't use the pet. Damn it.

[ivory cloak]

This^ i have probably 30-40 screenshots of T1’ing people with Timber on Deity. 🤣 A themis heart would save them (or any sort of defensive stats), but ideally we shouldnt allow this to happen

[warped zinc]

Isnt it nice to balance game and destroy half of the things in the process

[regal tangle]

I mean most of the changes outside of reraise are bof specific.

[formal sonnet]

I lost my ability to avidity 30% and double tap turn 1

Not a deal breaker

Could be a better alternative. Is have house rules change on an rng wheel, give us passives back and have a wheel of malus/buffs

Or a separate live arena where no rules are used.

[pallid maple]

If you do direct challenges this is how it works

[pallid maple]

BoF is specifically meant to be:

1. No ALs
2. No turn-1 kills

[warped zinc]

Yea i understand those 2 but the way how people are trying to suggest nerfs to pet builds is just awfull

As beoA player those just kill the interest to interact with bof in the future

And if my interest drops from pvp it will also drop from pve which means i will just go check other games

[tribal olive]

I have plenty of BeoA builds that are viable

Its one of the best classes - without- the turn 1 cheese

Forgive us for trying to treat all classes equal with the house rules

No agendas, just balance

[flat bluff]

One of the best classes for pvp?

Without turn 1 tactic?

[warped zinc]

@flat bluff yes im shocked too

Idk where these beoA builds come from that actually do well without investing high offence and trying to kill target before you die to class issue

[tribal olive]

Its won tournaments in the past

Just saying

Idk how else to tell you guys just gonna have to trust me

[warped zinc]

Tournaments are not that good for data bc not all ppl do those. For examble i do not have time for tournaments. I would have time for ranking type of tournament thats not locked to x day x time

[mossy raven]

Funny that every time I found you on bof, you never was a beo.

[flat bluff]

1v1 tournaments?

[tribal olive]

I had to anti-cheese all of the cheese going on

Tourneys dont use that shit for the most part

[tribal olive]

Yes

[warped zinc]

And battleclub tournaments actually have rules that say you cant use x skill

Which normal bof does not have

[tribal olive]

Imagine if i queued up with an OP build. Everyone and their moms would copy it. i like to keep that shit hidden 🤷‍♂️

[tribal olive]

Mostly just counterattack

Because its stupid

[flat bluff]

Do you know by chance what build / follower was that player using? No t1 cheese i assume?

[flat bluff]

Oh, was it before the nerf?

[tribal olive]

Reraise dursa

Yes

Havent queued since. Got all my proofs already

[warped zinc]

Is that beoA

[mossy raven]

So beo have an anti build, so not much the op people are saying, then🤔

Meaning there is some builds better than beo cheese, but players are just to lazy, or like to complaints because why not.🤷

[onyx knot]

Can we talk about making the scrolls easier to farm with bof tokens. Its going to go down hill now that everyone has their aura and the rewards are meh

[flat bluff]

I think you mistook my msg. I was wondering about build of that BeoA player that won the tournament.

[warped zinc]

I think it was jord ss3

Before nerf^

But not sure if it was actually beoA

[tribal olive]

Me?

[warped zinc]

Yes you

[tribal olive]

No the beoA player that won a tournament

Lol

No turn 1 cheese

[warped zinc]

Yes tosik was asking what pet/build/spec was he using

[tribal olive]

Id love that yeah

[warped zinc]

If he even was beoA

[tribal olive]

It was just beoA using a pet to kill like normal

Had no problems

No cheese

[warped zinc]

What pet?

[tribal olive]

Several

Can we talk about BoF proof costs? Would love to solve some problems here 🙏

[warped zinc]

Yea i dont think beoA has won a tournament. BeoO i would belive.

[tribal olive]

Well it was me and he did so idk what to tell u

I propose halving all shop costs except aura. What do people think about that?

Too low? Still too high?

@onyx knot

[ivory cloak]

BeoA cactus is just about is meta as it gets for Tournaments

[tribal olive]

3s specifically ^

[ivory cloak]

Yes what he said^ 😂

[tribal olive]

Im a 1s guy lol 😆

[ivory cloak]

Or she sorry i assumed 😳

[ivory cloak]

2v2s are addictive 🙂

[tribal olive]

Either way beoA was seen in finals of 2s and 3s before

If not winning

[onyx knot]

So currently, it takes about an hour of farming at a 60% win rate to make one scroll, right? I really think the reward structure should account for both wins and losses. Something like 2 proofs for a win and 1 for a loss would already cut that grind in half.

I can make 8–10 scrolls an hour just doing dungeons, so I’d love to see PvP rewards brought more in line with that. That way, players can spend more time playing the content they actually enjoy most.

I’ll be honest: mindlessly running dungeons just to make scrolls gets really boring. If PvP rewards were on par, that’s what I’d be doing.

[warped zinc]

Dont forget that if the turn 1 0% offence pet action gets in live it will not be even close to meta

[ivory cloak]

Sokams fault 😏

[ivory cloak]

Its meta because you can build into a lot of foresight tbh

Double hits were a big one but its still incredibly viable compared to other options

[warped zinc]

Foresight does not matter if your pet cant attack turn 1

[onyx knot]

Ive won some sets in 1v1's with it. It was played by my team every round last 3v3's. No one is proposing your pet cant act turn 1.

[ivory cloak]

Yeah i didnt see that “idea” and it sounds poor compared to just limiting a turns damage per round

[stray kayak]

still proposing boosting crimson proof rewards from matches a bit

for loses and wins

[tribal olive]

2 proofs for win, 1 for loss

Regular BoF proofs would scale from 2-5 on a winning streak, 1 for a loss

[warped zinc]

A bit up there was this balancing idea of a 0%act rate for offence for beos on turn 1 that all but beos were supporting

[tribal olive]

Yeah we arent proposing that

[onyx knot]

That was if the beo hit for 50% damage already you need to read all the posts

[ivory cloak]

Yeah id honestly cringe if that idea is even entertained

[tribal olive]

Dont worry lol. Just a house rules damage honoring is all we are looking for

[ivory cloak]

Rounds getting implemented, along with turn damage limits would be ideal imo. And seems to be the best balancing idea ive seen so far

That would fix summoners, beos, turn manipulation, etc

Dont see me crying about my guaranteed proc spells not working either 😂

[tribal olive]

Anyways i think we agree about that

Proof costs tho?

[warped zinc]

Also note that "turn 1" kill is still possible even if we cap pet+ player dmg to 50%

[stray kayak]

buff the crimson proofs

[warped zinc]

All you need is bit of dot dmg boost

You basicly do the kill on turn 1 but it just happens on opponents turn 1

[tribal olive]

Current rates:

BoF:
1hr for 1 super scroll

Dungeons:
1hr for 8-10 super scrolls

Proposal:

• 1 proof for loss, 2 for win
  (Should theoretically triple the proof rate at a 50% win rate)
• Cut non aura shop costs in half
• This would lead to roughly 6 scrolls per hour. Still less than the rates of PvE, but rewards losses and has legit incentive and doesnt punish participation by rewarding a loss

Thoughts?

[dusty lagoon]

if you get proofs for a losses the meta will be quad egde 😆. How about event proofs being affected by win streaking?

[tribal olive]

Na because youll still need 2 turns to win/lose its better to pick up 33% wins just spamming an attack than losing every time

But win streaking would definitely be better

NF doesnt seem to want to buff pvp rewards too much so im trying to meet halfway with something that seems easier to implement

[dusty lagoon]

Sorry i should've pet /s instead of the 😆

[tribal olive]

You arent wrong people would definitely quad edge

[ivory cloak]

But it wouldnt because thats total turn damage per round

I think you are misunderstanding what we mean

If you hit 50% your pet shouldnt on that same turn be able to get you any lower, this would need round implementation like odie mentioned

[native cove]

Win streak increasing like guild proofs?

Just curious, how much pet act to make them act in first turn?

[warped zinc]

I mean that its quite easy to scale dots so it does the other 50% which is not on my turn anymore. And due turn loss of status rng you just die before "acting"

But that happens only if the enemy ignores immunities to dots

[pallid maple]

If someone gets 50% of their HP done by dots, maybe at that point it's their own fault

That seems very difficult to pull off 😅

[warped zinc]

Bc burn,curse,bleed,toxic,poison,blight,rot and curse of sekhmet does alot dmg

[tribal olive]

Odin banks on people not bringing briny lol

[ivory cloak]

DoTs are damaging only on the enemies turn not your own

[warped zinc]

Indeed

[ivory cloak]

And immunity is a huge part of bof builds

So it’s hugely fine tbh

Not to mention themis heart buff

Etc

[tribal olive]

Good bof builds*

[pallid maple]

Can you consistently apply those all T1?

[tribal olive]

Miasma 2 from the viper does half of those lol

[ivory cloak]

Its actually easy to nail a ton t1 even with the house rules

[pallid maple]

Maybe I need to try some Beo/Assassin

[warped zinc]

Well quite easily

Tho this one had immus to toxic etc

[pallid maple]

I did some Dorado Assassin but didn't go quite all in enough it seems

[ivory cloak]

Status effects are fairly solid where they are at for bof in my opinion

Not too too strong and build dependencies on both sides

[ivory cloak]

Some items even have 100% application chance

[warped zinc]

Thats what ive been toying with

[ivory cloak]

T10* Arcane Book from apo for example has all 4 effects at 100% proc rate

So building assassin % is nuts there

[warped zinc]

Curse of sek is nasty for those that try to outheal dots

[hollow adder]

Reading through the earlier discussion about restricting Beo follower act if they do damage cap makes my brain hurt.

[ivory cloak]

I actually thought about you when i saw that

[tribal olive]

Dont worry we arent aiming for act prevention

[ivory cloak]

Make the beos use utility pets instead

If dmg is capped to 50% a turn

[pallid maple]

I was doing this but maybe tried too hard to stay tanky

[ivory cloak]

Build options please

[ivory cloak]

Arcane book if you are in bof 😏

[hollow adder]

Good. "only Beos can't 1 turn kill" is quite literally one of the least well-thought out pvp suggestions I've seen here.

[ivory cloak]

At least try it once, its good fun

[warped zinc]

Honestly if you go dots your tanky is your sleep,frozen,stunned and para rate

I dont have petrify on this build

But gorgon head is solid for that one

[pallid maple]

Actually I think I just tweaked this build to be where I like it, going by the 6 win streak and the opponents that probably aren't very happy with me

Same gear, Great Amorak pet, RS Dorado/Assassin

[keen loom]

Piob mhor can be funny..
Even 0 dmg, lull can be triggered..
I think offhand skills/spells can trigger debuff even with 0 dmg, maybe excluding debuff from addornment?

[flat bluff]

Every attack with 0 dmg should be able to trigger a debuff

Unless it says "immune"

[keen loom]

Some need to deal damage..

[flat bluff]

You mean that some attacks need to deal at least 1 dmg to trigger the debuff? Could you give an example?

[ivory cloak]

It can apply debuffs and status effects exactly this way

Oh ignore me yes that was a reply not a “idea” 🤣

[formal sonnet]

Must be done 1v1 an aren would allow random que

[keen loom]

Sorry it's my fault..
This is right reason..
I need to read it more carefully next time..

[lyric helm]

The barrier we'd be up against here is the perception that this event is a PvP event.
Even with current costs, it's the sentiment that keeps repeating

This event isn't a PvP event, so much as it is an event where you can PvP for some bonus proofs, and some progress along the way. It does seem to be hitting that ok right now, but making PvP more lucrative changes that perception even more

[stray kayak]

I gotta be frank - and yes this is my single one off subjective opinion- yall really gotta rethink this or figure out a way to break whatever this psychological hold is. This is a pve and pvp event. right now. Buffing bof proofs and making rewards apart of it made this a pvp event

additionally I purchased the BOF specific pack to put my money where my mouth is and show support for it

Odie made this comment before. the harm here is that you are focusing on these types of players bouncing out, rather than looking at the players you are retaining because you offer events like this

the silly anecdote is actually, we dont want to do a pvp event to foster something for our players that do care about this content

it feels like yall are being very rigid on this for reasons that are unclear to me beyond some sort of data around retention stats

this is my final argument around this I do hope we consider buffing the proofs slightly as something to support the players who want to keep doing Bof this month

[lyric helm]

The data supports that PvP is one of, if not the greatest contributor to players putting the game down permanently. It's not being silly, it's being mindful of what impacts the game life overall for everyone

[tribal olive]

Completely agree with Ensseric
The fact of the matter is the majority people dont just PvP because they want to slog out some fights for fun. There has to be some sort of carrot to motivate wins and participation.

Currently participation suffers because there is no reward for participating. Only winning. This leads to fallout 10/10 times. There has to be a participation award.

Furthermore, myself included, majority of people arent going to just queue BoF for fun after they get the Aura. They are moving on because this is a game where if you dont spend time on progression you fall quickly behind. See wars / conquest / etc that all rely heavily on player progression for success.

[stray kayak]

why is that the case?

data supports players put it down

[lyric helm]

We aren't taking it off the table, we're just treating you guys with enough respect to talk candidly about our decision making. It's better than being silent I'd have thought 😅

[tribal olive]

I would also put it down if i got no compensation for the losses. Would feel like a waste of time.

[stray kayak]

i prefer talking about it, obviously this opens you up to criticism of your approach

its better to attempt something constructive than to be silent

i am sorry I said silly but I described it this way because we feel like we are being dismissed

[tribal olive]

Not coming at you Dangy just disagreeing. Always appreciate the discussions in the threads

[stray kayak]

is buffing crimson proofs for losses and +2 for wins going to make a wave of players quit this month?

[ivory cloak]

Im the definition of a wishful thinker, and as someone who loves PvP im actively biased. But I truly think more PvP centric “parts” of the event should be active like it is here. It incentivizes people to engage with it in a more light manner, and this month has so far shown that to be true (as annoying as all the immediate balancing has become for you guys to manage im sure)

[lyric helm]

Disagreeing isn't really what we're doing here, just bringing up points that need to be considered. It's normal for the workflow of problem solving

We try to bring you guys in the loop on things, which I think overall is a great studio > player > studio flow.

So that gives you guys some working space: how do you tackle suggestions in a way that takes into account studio concerns? It's a good challenge

The less optimal path is to brute force my ideals >>>> anyone else's ideals

[ivory cloak]

Not a WHOLE event but having a side-piece that engages with BoF guild is huge

[stray kayak]

right now the studio's concerns are: if we buff pvp rewards our data shows players are going to quit because they now think they are forced to do pvp in order to do content

[tribal olive]

I wonder what specific factors of pvp make people put the game down?

• lack of rewards?
• losing all the time, no participation compensation, whats the point?
• Will never catch up to ALs so why bother?

I feel like BoF could solve all of these potential reasons. Unwillingness to reward could just exacerbate the pvp quitting issue honestly. Some people like PVP and if there isnt a meaningful offering of that in the game that fulfills a player theu could quit.

Just thoughts floating around.

[stray kayak]

yes these are really the fundamentals I want to explore

I think the sentiment we have and wish to express is whether or not there is a form of PVP that solves the player retention issues the studio experiences

your data in the past is based on pvp scenarios that were extremely grindy and have very minimal reward out comes

that is not indiciative of future performance given quality changes

it is a risk like anything else

[tribal olive]

If scrolls were worth the grind id absolutely farm bof over dungeons for example

[stray kayak]

yes

[tribal olive]

Instead i gotta go do dungeons because those super raid scrolls dont farm themselves

[onyx knot]

Right now 8-10 scrolls an hour doing PVE vs PVP 1 scroll per hour at a 60% win rate.

[stray kayak]

this is not meant to be a gang up on dangy thread just in case it wasnt clear 😄 I think the people responding here are very passionate pvp players and desire to see their favorite game mode flourish in orna

I think they also believe that this scene can grow in ways that are beneficial to orna as well

[tribal olive]

Pvp is the ultimate 'test your grind '

Without it what are we farming for?

Its way more important than some games give credit to. Kudos for having it in the game, that i believe does contribute to player retention. But I believe it has to be built and further developed to truly see the full potential and thrive

[onyx knot]

The past PvP-focused quest lines that made people quit were tied to Arena or Coliseum, maybe back before players could turn off ALs. BoF doesn’t have ALs.

[tribal olive]

It was also a slog that wasnt optional

Bof is optional nobody feels like its required whatsoever

We can still keep it that way while giving meaningful rewards to respect time spent for people who want to spend it there, and incentivize participation so it doesnt go back to dead when the month ends

[warped zinc]

If you want to proc debuffs that arent part of the spell/attack (weapon adorns)

[hardy wagon]

I'm a tad lost on this idea. Towers are (currently) the only place you are compensated for losing. I'm not against the idea of doing so, but I don't see "wasting my time" as a strong enough reason to utilize that reward schema for how quickly fights (can) go in PvP

[tribal olive]

How does someone get better in pvp without experience? They lose several times, rebuild, and come back stronger

Losses arent rewarded. So why even bother trying

Hence 'Waste of time'

And why likely so few new faces enter the pvp scene

I dont blame them, to be fair

[regal tangle]

If you lose in a monument you keep 100% of proofs

[hardy wagon]

Right. Just as in BoF you keep all the proofs you've earned from winning thus far.

[regal tangle]

I'm just saying, incentivising people to do more than 1 week of bof a year might be nice.

[onyx knot]

I lost in Conqueror Guild, but hey, at least I can still play rock-paper-scissors and get a proof, so that’s something etc. Most pvp games you get something for your time. If you dont do that its not great for motivation.

[tribal olive]

What would a player who loses 10 times in a row do? Im obviously making assumptions, but thats a good 5 mins spent on nothing, and id probably just disengage and do something else

[hardy wagon]

This applies to more than just PvP. Unless you are willing to also say that players should be rewarded for losing any fight. PvP or PvE.

[tribal olive]

They are rewarded for losing in pve everywhere. Not pvp

[hardy wagon]

what

[tribal olive]

Im suggesting reward loser of BoF fight with a proof

And winner 2 proofs, buildable to a streak of 5

With meaningful rewards for proofs in shops, event or normal guild

But the studio is hesitant to make any improvements to the reward system of PvP for fears of player fallout

[hardy wagon]

What rewards do I recieve for losing when in a world fight? a dungeon floor?

[onyx knot]

@hardy wagon have you actally fought in the BOF guild?

[hardy wagon]

I'm currently #81 in the guild Sokam

[onyx knot]

impressive

[tribal olive]

Fighting players?

[hardy wagon]

I think I fought a real player a couple months back

[onyx knot]

oh really your t4 lol

[hardy wagon]

I dunno what this has to do with my question though.

[royal sapphire]

Is this intended?

When I win by killing the player with dot effect, the win won’t reward anything. But it has to be a win when the opponent kills himself while killing me. If he dies by dots and I'm still alive, I get the reward.

If that is intended, shouldn’t it say „draw” ? And what decides who is attacker and defender in bof?

[tribal olive]

Not intended i think, probably report as a bug

[karmic linden]

Question is, are we interpreting the data correctly? Do players quit when faced with PvP events/quests because they don’t enjoy PvP at all, or because they don’t enjoy Orna’s current iteration of PvP?

If we were to implement the many suggestions the community as collected over the years for BoF, would players still quit when interacting with PvP, or would we help the PvP scene grow and foster?

[lyric helm]

this is not meant to be a gang up on dangy thread
I'm not taking it this way

I'm just trying my best to be a go between to bring you guys up to speed so you don't think we're ignoring you, and trying to encourage pushing the suggestions toward a scope that understands the concerns AND gets you guys what you want <3
I do want you guys to have what you want <3

[pallid maple]

Bordo, you're walking a dangerous line when the reason many players quit is because of the huge AL differences

And that being a part of PvP you want to keep 😆

[tribal olive]

A dungeon floor loss takes 1 second of brainlessness, all rewards of prior floors kept (materials, orns, gold, items, etc)

A pvp loss takes a solid 30secs of focusing. You keep your wins from before of course.

The time investment and focus required isnt even a comparison

[formal sonnet]

If you loose in a goblin fort you get more tries

[tribal olive]

I cant think of any systems where PVP isnt rewarded across all games ive seen. Conq guild does a good job. Wars do too. BoF does nothing

[royal sapphire]

@warped zinc sorry for the ping. Did this happen to you as well? Seems like something you would encounter with your dot build. Just so I know if I should report it or not.

[hardy wagon]

Thats comparing long-form rewards with short-form though, is it not?
As for the effort, while I definitely see the lack of thought put forth by most end-game players doing dungeons, I put in about the same or more focus for world farming as, say, Othersoul PvP.

[tribal olive]

Youre digging way too into the weeds with this one

Its no discussion that BoF rewards are non existent and losses are punishing

You do BoF for the achievement factor of a smurf account, a very very unique case. Rest of us dont do it because no rewards

[pallid maple]

I disagree that losses are punishing, they're really not

[formal sonnet]

Oof punishing was getting /bof at t9 or early t10 back in the day

[tribal olive]

Knight we are used to winning

[pallid maple]

They're not rewarding, but there is no punishment

[tribal olive]

What about people who dont win?

Punishing of time spent is what i mean. Opportunity cost type of punishment

Like why do this when i can just do that instead

It has to be -a- reason why -some- people dont participate

For example, me

[hardy wagon]

I do BoF because it allows me to recoup the Skeleton Key cost of doing Horde Boss dungeons. Its a requirement for me to participate and win.

[formal sonnet]

Need 40 lvls to finish this easy, or get 150 more wins, not easy. Very rewarding and some see it this way. Having to do pve x40lvl

[karmic linden]

I’ve been an avid supporter of making BoF better exactly because it gives those players an avenue to be able to interact with PvP without the weight of ALs. I don’t think the 2 points are contradictory, I think they actually compliment each other well

[tribal olive]

Caught you - so you do play BoF for rewards?

[pallid maple]

EXP-Less, I get the points you're trying to make, but for all practical purposes you do not do BoF

You exchange arena tokens to fight NPCs

[pseudo lagoon]

Add 2% summon pacts to Goat's Eye adorn

[formal sonnet]

This how a lot of people think that are not diehard bof like many here.

[warped zinc]

Happens alot. I belive neither one getd reward

[hardy wagon]

dafuq do you mean caught me? I'm just trying to understand why losing in BoF is different from losing anywhere else 😭
I genuinely don't understand and am trying to figure out what I'm missing from your logic.

[pseudo lagoon]

An other option, and reasoning:

Goat's Eye adorn (currently +2% summon stat +2% follower stat) is underwhelming and doesnt really require quality rolling.

Change it to:

+2% summon stat +2% follower stat +2% summon pact +5 mag +5 dex

Reasoning:

There are not many summon pact options out there, this would slightly improve that

[tribal olive]

pless with all due respect you dont lose any BoF fights, so you always get a reward.

People who do lose BoF fights often probably don't engage at all. No rewards for just trying and no incentive to even get better so why bother.

The objective is to increase engagement here. Hopefully this explanation makes sense...?

[flat bluff]

But its still counts as a win for win streak @royal sapphire

[warped zinc]

Yea that does not break your streak

[pallid maple]

IMO, you should get guild exp for losing but that's it

[tribal olive]

We can debate what the reward for losing is but there currently is none

All im asking for is incentivizing a dead guild

[faint fossil]

I'll try to unpack a little because unclear what data studio is working with, but from what I read so far is that a lot of players drop off when forced to do pvp content a la the storyline quest, but that content is actually mandatory. Does having two halves of an event be equally rewarding produce that same effect when it is not actually mandatory?

For a lot of players I feel like the pvp element may also be what hooks them to stay, but difficult to parse that as a metric.

But I really don't feel increasing bof rewards generally will cause people to leave wholesale as it already is less than half efficiency compared to most other methods. And Id also think loss rewards would have the opposite effect, that would make a loss feel way less bad.

[shut tinsel]

Read from bottom to top. I feel like this summarizes what the sentiment is really well

[faint fossil]

Somewhat anecdotal is that I think there should be more information about abilities somewhere. It was very unintuitive when I started to be like "oh my volley can 1 hit every monster but does 0 in pvp" the first conclusion I came to wasn't "I should use another move" the conclusion was "I am much too weak"

[stray kayak]

yeah many people in this thread have responded to all of those comments from Odie

[sharp needle]

Honestly that just opens way easier ways for botters to farm another guild

[stray kayak]

this does summarize their sentiment but we dont think its accurately capturing 1) potential for BoF 2) not having it designed as "mandatory"

[shut tinsel]

Sorry that was mainly for Geppu

[stray kayak]

i think you can also balance having 0 rewards for losses if wins are much more rewarding.

[faint fossil]

You could even have something here like "play your way! All event items/scrolls are creftsble from both Pve and pvp activities"

[tribal olive]

Its honestly a win win, studio would probably stop hearing endless flurries of AL complaints

[faint fossil]

I'll speak for myself but when I start a new game, my mentality requires that game to have a pvp component, even in games where I never engage with it, because to me that's what the climb is for.

[tribal olive]

Yes, to an extent. More participation is good. The people in this discussion arent losing over and over again. However those people exist and I cannot imagine how discouraging and unrewarding that might be.

[tribal olive]

Exactly. At least all good games imo have that

[ivory cloak]

I grew my character in t10 alongside learning how to do bof pvp in UBC more specifically. It was ABSOLUTELY gratifying to play through my first year of events focusing on gear i want to use specifically in group pvp. So I feel this has a deeper layer than most of everyone seems to realize when they put forward input. Mainly when i have never seen them actually inside of blades of finesse haha

[gloomy kite]

People active here seem to be mainly part of the "pro BoF" bubble. In my discord bubble (regional discords), most reactions were: "oh no, please no pvp event - I hate it. Do I really have to do it?"

To give you my individual data point: I find BoF extremely boring. For me it's a PvE grind game with some small PvP content. I like to grind, I like thinking about new builds to manage harder PvE content. Not for PvP (even if I like the gps/settlement part). When I wanted to focus on couch pvp, I would go back to warzone (which I played a lot) or some other PvP centered game.

Maybe I will go for the 400 wins to get the aura, maybe I will delete BoF before (I already thought about it). And no, it's not about losing (my win rate is >50%) or the rewards.

[lyric helm]

I see Theeg

[ivory cloak]

Me too im excited

[hardy wagon]

Mostly still no, but I'm putting this in the box of "Pless can't get it" and moving on. 😔

[tribal olive]

Maybe if i said - you only win 25% of your games. Would you do your key farming in BoF still?

Either way appreciate the discussion 🍻

[stray kayak]

Well that’s the benefit right? PvP event; no you don’t have to do it

The same rewards run parallel for player choice (this is what we are proposing)

This time around I believe the only thing that was locked to PvP is the aura

[tribal olive]

This is great perspective, thanks for sharing.

Im sure there are a boatload of reasons why people wouldnt play PvP content, most of which are easily addressable. Some will always be out of the Devs control, like the one you stated. However, why not address the ones that are in control? That's sort of what we are getting at.

[stray kayak]

Genuinely we can post the same reaction in reverse; oh look another pve event? Do I really have to do that? I actually prefer playing PvP and would like access to the same rewards through that content stream

This isn’t a player majority vs minority discussion. It’s a discussion about the game design opening up more lanes of progression for all players depending on what content they enjoy playing

[ivory cloak]

Is this not perfect though? A side piece of the event to grind out specific items that dont truly impact the players that didnt want to do pvp?

[tribal olive]

Nothing in that pool is worth grinding in the current pricing / proof structure as compared to PvE by literally an order of magnitude, barring the Aura which each person has their own level of desire for.

[gloomy kite]

I am just trying to provide some feedback for the other perspective - as this perspective as quite silent here. I will definitely not be the person who will uninstall the game because of BoF. But even for me, I focused some evenings on BoF because of this event, but after 30 min I stopped playing Orna, instead of switching to PvE content as usual. Of course I also don't know what others who don't like it think or feel about it - I can only share my own perspective here - and some statements from other discords, but w/o a detailed discussion of their reasoning.
To complain about new PvE events. however, would feel very "unexpected" for me - I am quite sure that even the PvP lovers here played 95% of the time PvE content - even if it should be for PvP progression, you probably wouldn't do it if you don't like it.

[ivory cloak]

Exactly what i mean though, unfortunately its a slippery slope regarding creating MEANINGFUL lanes to grind events out in

[stray kayak]

ty for sharing. that said people complain about the pve events every single event until things are adjusted

[ivory cloak]

I want more to do pvp for tbh, but i can see how that would negate the need for the rest of the events options

[stray kayak]

I dont think I need to provide examples but people actively go to main discord to voice complaints and suggestions in hopes of productive changes

this happens for *every single pve event *

this time we are advocating for the first pvp event ever to get some changes that benefit players

[faint fossil]

I don't know if complaining about pve event generally is real but Id imagine people complain about certain flavors like ugh a tower event. I'm not a huge dungeon lover since I played them for years straight in Ang 1.0

[gloomy kite]

of course, but usually rather about balancing stuff (ok, sometimes about too much grind in the grind game ), not about the PvE content itself

[stray kayak]

how is this not the same thing?

i feel that we are mincing words

this discussion about the pvp event is about balancing stuff and also about "too much grind".

this discussion thread made throne makers a significantly better event in the first week

anyways I said my peace at this point and I hope NF takes the feedback into consideration.

also I hope we get a deep dungeon event next month 🎉

[tribal olive]

@stray kayak thanks for the input appreciate the time. Definitely aligned. Ill keep trying here

[gloomy kite]

I don't find it easy to communicate what the underlying reason is for "not liking" it. Let's say "fishing" would be extremely lucrative. Would I do a lot of fishing? No, I just wouldn'T like that "I should" do fishing. So it's not so much about the rewards, but rather about BoF itself.

I know, it's not a very constructive statement. And I don't like to say it like that...

[faint fossil]

The question id have is what's the reaction from those you said were frustrated that it may be a pvp event. Did they realize pve was more effective and move on? Would something like a disclaimer in the event description help?

[gloomy kite]

Just some random screenshots - I honestly don't know. Sorry...

[tribal olive]

Currently reward rates for BoF vs PvE for this event are about 1:10

Order of magnitude. Nobody should be feeling like they have to participate in this. Parallel rewards aside from a cosmetic

[forest sphinx]

I like the crimson proofs streak idea, but I don’t think rewarding losses with a proof is the way to go

Like the quad edge argument that was mentioned earlier

[karmic linden]

Spamming quad edge still takes 3 turns. Most fights are over in that time anyway, and you’d be unable to get streaks by doing that

[clear shore]

From my perspective it's perhaps the completionists that want to get everything offered from an event and seeing them "forced" to do pvp for the aura

[native cove]

This

[native cove]

This.

[crude bluff]

You mean that delaystrike aura?

[hollow adder]

Yeah but what about the Ursa's Edge meta?

Wait, you can do one better. Sequencer doublecast Ursa's Edge.

[tame iron]

I think maybe the majority of orna's player base just doesnt like playing against other ppl and prefers the solo/collaborative effort instead.
Speaking for myself: no amount of patching and updates will make me wanna do pvp simply because I dislike pvp in general

Also its a bit silly that ppl will just abandon the game just because pvp exists.

[formal sonnet]

Im that top line guy except for 0/10 uninstall. Id give event after patch’s a 7.5~8/10.

Just grinding PvP the bare minimum for aura. Still 140 wins to go.

[native cove]

Ppl do quit the game because Odie nerf one spell. But ya, ppl do that all the time.

Those in discord are not the majority of the players.

My 5 guild mates quit the game because of the grind.

There's a lot of simple reason that makes ppl quit. So for NF, their job is to retain players, bring in new players, and make sure casual players are enjoying the perks they bought.

Their main target audience will always be the casual players, who bring them the most profit. Just like any other games.

We the loud minority will improve the game but there must be a balance that don't chase away the casuals.

[tough jasper]

I like to think of it as the "Sharpen" aura so as to avoid shame when using it for my appearance. 😅

-# Tangent: The Ragnarok aura from the AP rewards is just the Storm spell animation.

[sage schooner]

Idk but I feel like BoF rewards are fine as is. Is it as efficient as dungeoning? No, but keep in mind you're also earning normal BoF rewards at double the normal rate on top of the event rewards

[bright sluice]

i fell asleep while i was lurking hahaha

[vestal token]

If the rewards would even remotely match the slow pace its demanding that would'nt be an issue tho

Morning everybody

Same with deep dungeons, its rewards are balanced like its speedy fast paced content but its slow and painful, you're at rngs mercy even more.

[warped zinc]

deeps dung was so good during ang 1.0

currently its hard to make them rewarding

[vestal token]

Deepshard multiplier per tier would be a great solution. Or adding a multiplier to mel.

Its not hard imo.
As anguish proofs are'nt really worth much as we still can only purchase 2 mats per specific proof at a time and it can take months until you roll whats needed.

[karmic linden]

On the flip side, you’re also earning proofs of Mel while running dungeons, which are more efficient than proofs of sparring, and don’t depend on you being able to keep a winning streak to maintain profits

[vestal token]

And even that is'nt enough to make it somewhat reasonable to farm. Its really only JFF and for a guild that exists for those amount of years, i don't think thats reasonable.

Now imagine how terrible its gonna get once the event is gone... JFF turns into a chore again.

[native cove]

Probably because the whole content don't need Anguished.

But ya, compare to pve, pvp grind is not rewarding.

[gloomy kite]

If you have a win streak, you currently get 1 scroll or 1 diluted memory for 5 wins - that's not so bad, is it? But regarding event proofs: true.

[onyx knot]

Bof proofs are one of the least valuable in the game and you actually have to focus not just mindlessly click bl2 every floor unless you are playing bof NPCs. You should be rewarded better.

[open wave]

aside from the pvp, horde dungeons with the scroll active is a very nice time to farm proofs of mel lol

[faint fossil]

Yeah, I think this is pretty bad and leaves a lot out of the equation.

1. Material tradeoffs are super bad, meaning you should really only be buying DMs with this currency, it lacks the flexibility of some of the others.
2. You have to maintain a winstreak. Even if youre a top PvP player, theres a lot of RNG factors in Orna PvP, and when more then 2 players are in BoF, its very difficult to counter all available builds. For an average 50% WR player, you will basically be getting 1.5 proofs average.
3. Depending on players builds and quickness, you're often at the mercy of your opponent on how fast matches can go.

BEST CASE SCENARIO: You get a 5 proof streak and then all other players stop playing and you just fight bots. This results in a DM about every ~2 mins. This is pretty consistent with the rate at which you can obtain them from faction monuments, but requires more setup, more skill, more luck and has a much more frequent fail-state. It also doesnt account for additional rewards you would get from monuments, in between floor rewards and proofs of torment if running anguish.

[gloomy kite]

Ah, ok. I must say I didn't really know how exactly the proofs increase. So I just tested it myself and realized that with bots, I had 8, 8, 8, and then 10 after a real opponent.

[pallid maple]

Yeah it's a bit strange. Your streak can't build on bots but it will continue to give increased rewards on bots

[flat bluff]

https://tenor.com/view/avengers-endgame-hulk-bruce-banner-i-see-this-as-an-absolute-win-gif-17006739

[gloomy kite]

So maybe the problem is not mainly the costs per DM, but rather that the costs per material are too high?
Just for comparison: For 5k tower shards you can get 1 DM or 24 Cort. But for 50 BoF proofs, you can get 1 DM or 12 Cort. So it is maybe ok to buy DM for proofs of sparring but not material? (and probably additonally the event proofs, which could slightly increase with win streak)

Faction monuments are maybe not the best comparison as you usually have very limited access to those. (If you are searching for them while travelling that's different, yes, but for a GPS game is seems ok for me to have higher rewards if you walk around.)

[flat bluff]

I think it is intended that tower shards and anguish guild currency are more effective when buying materials compared to other guilds. It is "endgame" pve content, after all.

[gloomy kite]

I just realize: when BoF was mainly with bots, it should have been extremly efficient to farm DMs, right? So just fight alts until you win 5 times, then mainly bots, and all the time you get 10 proofs?

[flat bluff]

5 proofs, 10 because of event

[gloomy kite]

ah, true

[pallid maple]

Yeah, it's not bad. Especially if the person farming is a bot themselves

[faint fossil]

Yeah, I do think this is a problem for a lot of guilds. Even for guilds with favorable exchange rate (excluding Anguish) DMs are probably the better choice for material gains, but some guilds exacerbate that further by making the material exchange really terrible.

[hollow adder]

Taking a step back from the BoF stuff for a second, would it be reasonable to request options to convert event boss essence to another type? Even if it's 1:2 or something.

[tribal olive]

Not unreasonable - I always have less of the same ones and more of another. Idk why it's the case

I figure just buy super raids till i have leftover then just buy that one and its ok

[pallid maple]

I think I agree

[tribal olive]

yep lol aries is the one i always have more of

[pallid maple]

Yeah I've never wanted to craft an Aries scroll

[hollow adder]

Poor Aries 😂

[pallid maple]

I play RS so the summoner boss isn't for me

[cursive roost]

can we convert red chloris to essence too?

[tribal olive]

They are good for my t9. If this does get changed to have a currency swap I'd definitely be bummed though. There probably should be a bad-rate currency swap like 1:2 or 1:3 etc

[open wave]

Same, cerus seems to be the hardest for me to come by as well

[royal sapphire]

in monuments, do different types of event monsters appear based on the path I choose? (or at least increased spawn rate of a certain type - cerus/perseus/aries)

if not, I think this would actually be really nice system. It would allow us at least slightly direct our farm if we need a certain essence type more than others.

[pallid maple]

For Cerus/Perseus/Aries monsters no. It's based on the types of items the monsters drop

Medusa shows up much more commonly on the thief path though because she only drops thief gear

Odie could give Perseus monsters a thief-only item, Cerus monsters a mage or warrior only item, and Aries monsters a summoner/valhallan only item though

[ivory cloak]

Only Aries i farmed was Tricky Aries for that negative foresight headpiece, didnt even need the scrolls for it 😂

[royal sapphire]

yep it would be awesome. It's not like it would be too good since monuments are only a small part of the farm. And dungeons are still much better overall.

They each have unique archetype look already, it would make sense to make them appear more in the respective path.

[tribal olive]

Oh wow

Odie cooked

[open wave]

rs gear beo/summoner crit chain gear

[forest sphinx]

@marble osprey You might have added an extra 0

[frosty canopy]

Oh dear

[crude bluff]

Lol, I hear him saying: " I'll give you OP gear so actually HAVE to play the content." 🤣

[pallid maple]

Actually he forgot a zero, he's fixing it

[frosty canopy]

Quick someone run a GSA endless lol

[forest sphinx]

Thank god, the 800% summon stats gear

[pallid maple]

ORN chat confirmation:

[crude bluff]

Yea happy valentines

[pallid maple]

Yeah if anyone wants to start an endless they won't be able to finish before the 23 hour dungeon timer is up, do it now

[royal sapphire]

lol 😄

[frosty canopy]

If I had the anguished ornates I’d do it for the hell of it but alas I do not

[royal sapphire]

anyone has a screenshot of an anguished piece lol?

[forest sphinx]

And this one hasn’t been updated yet?

[frosty canopy]

it would be the same stuff, +3% stats/ang level

just a hefty 80% base lmao

[noble kestrel]

Can a really high al gsa get an ancient dragon out with the 3x80% stats 🙏

Wanted to see the fattest ancient dragon ever 😅

[frosty canopy]

I’m just thinking about the current #1 leaderboard doing that 😂

AL 238 mel 82

good god

[noble kestrel]

It would probably be around 2-3m hp

[warped zinc]

So should i farm the new scrolls?

[shut tinsel]

yes

[warped zinc]

Actually nah

Ill just use all mats on aries

[tribal olive]

So in theory, at around 66% win rate -

2 Lerna scrolls / hr from BoF
8-10 lerna scrolls / hr from dungeons

Hey its better at least 🙏

[royal sapphire]

the horseshoes still have the typo in stats btw, other two were fixed

[pseudo lagoon]

Please add +pact power % bonus on goat's eye adorn

[regal tangle]

The follower act and smn stats seem very confusing to me. Not really sure who the target is with those 2. Kinda feels like Jack of all trades but not great at anything type stuff

I guess so non beo can join the cult of eos

[pseudo lagoon]

Honestly it feels like they slapped whatever came to their mind on the equip

Odie please add pact power to Goat's Eye adorn

[marble osprey]

it's a combination of all the gear from the event - a theme we've done once or twice

[pseudo lagoon]

1% is good

[faint fossil]

Gear is sick tbh big fan

[shut tinsel]

I like the change, The helm/chest were already good with blind/stun immunity and the crit chain/accuracy. The follower act/status protect are free bonuses

[regal tangle]

I like the status protect. And I can see where status and summon stats come from

[pseudo lagoon]

Where?

[shut tinsel]

The status protect is nice because at high enough anguish everything can inflict stun

[regal tangle]

Aries gear has summon stats, Perseus has status resist

It's the follower act that's got me stumped

[pseudo lagoon]

Ohhh i see i see

But

[pseudo lagoon]

Is the 80% summon stat on shoes gonna stay?

Or a mistake too

[regal tangle]

Typo for sure

That anguish stat would be broken

[pseudo lagoon]

Man, pity

[pseudo lagoon]

Not really

If its the usual +3% per ang level

[forest sphinx]

Thought it only had stun

[pseudo lagoon]

It would be cool if it stays like this as a unique piece

[regal tangle]

Yeah but a bonus 65 summon stat over the 2nd highest option ...

[dusty lagoon]

the next best summon stat pieces are 15% lol

[pseudo lagoon]

Yeah i know, but it would be good to have a unique piece like this

[pallid maple]

No, I don't think it would be "good" 😅

[dusty lagoon]

yes "good"

[pseudo lagoon]

Just like idk, rift summoner helmet with 40% pact power

Here come the gsa haters

[regal tangle]

No one hates gsa just cause we want some kinda balance

[forest sphinx]

[dusty lagoon]

that must be the same good as adding 2% pact power to the already BiS summon stats addorn

[hollow adder]

I'm just wondering how wearing some horeshoes is supposed to make your summons 80% stronger thematically. Do they get inspired to work out harder when they see you wearing them?

[pseudo lagoon]

Speaking of balance .... ehem.... nonstop reraise

[regal tangle]

One of us....one of us

[pallid maple]

It is actually possible for nonstop reraise and 80% summon stats to be OP simultaneously.

[pseudo lagoon]

base deity with sharpen III dealing 10s of millions of damage in first 5 turns

[regal tangle]

Nerfed and gone...next point

[pseudo lagoon]

Pve

Deity + reraise is basically immortality

balance

[regal tangle]

It's got a fail rate.... So again not true

[pseudo lagoon]

Next point

Base deity ... 50% second chance

+reraise

No?

Does that speak balance to you, friend?

Besides id see the horseshoe with 80% summon stat only being useful on gsa tower builds

[regal tangle]

And endless...but I'm sure that slipped your mind

[pseudo lagoon]

Whataboutism

RS /Deity can do just as well in endless as gsa

Maybe tad more effort

[dusty lagoon]

base deity has second chance so summoner needs an 80% summon stat item

[sharp needle]

I'm all for 80% summon stats tbh. Can we add +450% flask power too while we are at it?

[pseudo lagoon]

Dont twist my words.

Im saying that there are certain unique items in game which have strong stats/addons

[dusty lagoon]

is that not whataboutism?

[pseudo lagoon]

We have reraise from aaru boots - good, good unique item

[pseudo lagoon]

No its not, we were talking about balance

We have valhallan ruairc gear which makes tmm use DC - ok good unique set

[hollow adder]

Giving the king of endless more summon stats is the opposite of balance.

[onyx swift]

I like the new gear as is, as a GSA main it does offer enough

It's basically budget summon stats, but overall good tanky gear

[pseudo lagoon]

Why the heck not 80% summon stat on 1 unique piece?

[onyx swift]

80% summon stats would be insane XD on armor

[pseudo lagoon]

As if 80% is gonna change a lot anyways

[regal tangle]

And smn can spot a 100% horde staff with literally 0 issues

[onyx swift]

Weapon? That's debatable

[pseudo lagoon]

As i said - i see it quite useful only in tower builds for gsa for high ang

And the extra stats for endless is just a nice side thing

[hollow adder]

"GS is already first place by a landslide, it doesn't matter if they get entrenched further"

[pseudo lagoon]

Anyways it got nerfed anyways to 8%

[regal tangle]

Fixing a typo isn't really a nerf

Removing all summon stats would be a nerf

[pseudo lagoon]

Anyways

Add pact power to goats eye adorn, 1% would be cool

[onyx swift]

The summon stats are a nice addition cause now it's viable early GS gear, it would fall off later anguish but good for the fresh T10 peeps

In till you get A.morri/GA gear

[onyx knot]

I'm still not getting many event mobs with the scroll world farming. Not sure if the change was immediate or not. My items changed already.

[pallid maple]

The change didn't increase the quantity of event mobs, it added a 30% chance to get +1 monster per encounter

[gloomy kite]

Yesterday I had no answer to your question about some negative feedback about the pvp event. So I run a poll (2 discord servers, combined results). Even if the number of answers is rather small, it may give some more objective idea about the sentiment than just my impression. Though, the most popular last answer (which is in line with my impression) is a bit vague.

[gleaming thistle]

I like BoF when the House Rules are enforced.

where are we with this happening? I've lost track on what's being done about this.

[tribal olive]

Totally agreed! Difficult to implement without a 'rounds' system instead of 'turns' type of thing. NF aware and its on our feedback list.

Luckily, in the meantime, you can hard counter it with several methods

at least its not busted, its just cheesy and lazy

[gleaming thistle]

if it's going to take quite a considerable amount of time to implement, should the wording on the House Rules be changed in the meantime?

[tribal olive]

Probably not

TBD on whether the beo portion of all the cheese will be fixed asap not sure. The good news is NF got a ton of other worse culprits out of the way in the last week. Odie has been at it lately

[gleaming thistle]

I'm a huge fan of the recent patches. cheers to you, Odie and pvp fanatics

[marble osprey]

imo, the wording is currently correct. those are two actions within the first 2 rounds of battle and they do 50% each

Beo (generally) just has the advantage as the follower power will cap that 50%

Fixing it will take a large upheaval to how Orna handles the concept of a round, which likely won’t happen this month

[tribal olive]

Appreciate the insight into timing. Totally understand and very much appreciate all of the heavy lifting patching up the bigger problems!

Sounds like you are at least aware and can decide if and when to tackle it.

[tough jasper]

Tracking actual rounds of combat will make testing the duration of (de)buffs, etc. easier to do, too.

I look forward to future possibilities, like abilities or multi-turn skills triggering at the start/end of a round. Maybe even change when status effects wear off, etc.

[normal pollen]

Changing the cap to work on the receiving end wouldn't fix that?
I mean, being able to only lose 50% until played first turn, and another 50% until played the second

Tracking the damage cap by the damaged player might fix most of the 'breaking the house rules' about turns

Of course, that might not be feasible in the current implementation

[stray kayak]

I really dislike this build and mammon in particular is the biggest offender. Nekrosis being elementless? there isnt a way to negate its damage like you would with elemental attacks. Manticore adorns are also, in my experience, not viable to reduce the damage significantly - which also distorts your build against other opponents

only option that has worked for me is to out FS and temper (I run some status effect gear) round 1

assuming you dont also want to be the cheese master

[gleaming thistle]

never will be. this player I just matched with is fine with doing it.

I thought delay strikes was patched. eh, could be wrong.

also got me with the pet thing in the previous match

[stray kayak]

as far as I know the patch on DS greatly reduced its effectiveness

it did not completely take away its ability to work turn 1/2

[stray kayak]

up to you how you want to proceed but if you would like to go turn 1 aim for about 1k-1,1k fs

im happy to share strategies publicly

[flat bluff]

Having starting ward and more than 20k total hp would have prevented dying against player with MA in screenshot above.

Nekrosis 3 has a static ~50% miss chance, but can be affected by accuracy. MA has also bad envy skill. (In addition, nekrosis needs to be charged)

I think fey cactus is straight up more stable for t1 cheese.

[stray kayak]

arrowstorm can atleast be dealt with by manticore eyes and higher defense stats

[gleaming thistle]

yep, beef up the foresight. I'll lose quite the magic to hit hard enough against a lot of opponents.

could go back to what I was trying with high FS Hcorvus. but that's flask business. not really a big fan having to rely on it.

I won't be getting serious enough in BoF. I never do tournaments and such

remember what I told ya, I'm a stubborn mule with convictions 😂
base heretic or bust

[stray kayak]

i mean i really prefer base heretic anyways

but Im still using flask build on that

[ivory cloak]

Its just super low rate of success in those early turns, can still get it off with some luck

[gleaming thistle]

ah. right on. thank you.

[warped zinc]

Maybe charon adorn instead. That one has 1% summon stats

[pseudo lagoon]

Nah

Its much easier than that. Just use forbid on your beo enemy

[warped zinc]

This

Also temper++&temper+ basicly destroy pet action

[stray kayak]

sure

[pseudo lagoon]

Actually id not waste time on temper

Even with assasin spec it often doesnt apply

Forbid is the way to go

[pseudo lagoon]

If u have higher FS than the beo here is what you do, considering RNG is on your side ofc xD

1. Forbid
2. smoke bomb
3. kill

[sage schooner]

Just turn 1 kill the beo before they can turn 1 kill you 🤔

[stray kayak]

Cool

[tough jasper]

Vs. Auriga, using Temper I & II kind of helps, but sometimes their follower just kills you anyway. I can reduce the damage from Fey Cactus by going with 100% Def/Res swap while maintaining full flask power bonuses, but now I'm killed by anything hybrid/magic-based.

Vs. Bydrus, I use Flash first then try Temper II if I'm not dead. This still has the issue of being circumvented by the many sources of +Accuracy or quickened Strikes of Ursa.

Manticore Eyes definitely aren't enough even with balanced defensive stats, and Verse IV doesn't care about those anyway.

[pseudo lagoon]

I recommend smoke bomb, flash can miss

[tough jasper]

Eh. Flash has a 100% blind chance, so I'll take those odds over Smoke Bomb vs. Bydrus, since getting blocked is less likely. I'm not stopping to Blind Auriga since the follower isn't affected and the players often don't do much fighting of their own.

[pseudo lagoon]

Matter of preference then
For me its best because i run assasin spec anyways

You know whats interesting about this event? Its heavily PVP related, and BoF is full with tryhard payers. Now for me its alr, not a problem. But what about the rest of the players who are not equipped well for these amounts of strong players? They stand no chance. So i think a divided PVP league system is long overdue.

Meaning (just an example):

Bronze: x many wins/guild level/guild xp (same goes for the rest
Silver
Gold
Platinum

Pro: weaker players will not match up against strong ones and have a chance at gaining something in BoF
Currently many players are discouraged by BoF because of strong players nuking them in 1st turn. This could motivate more players to do BoF

Contra: considering that the game isnt big and there aren't many players to divide into leagues. So apart from the highest league - BoF could be very empty for the rest of the leagues

Edit: an other idea - based on the xp/winrate/guild level if one strong player matched against a noob the strong player could get a huge stat malus?

[tough jasper]

Probably better to have that conversation here: https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1461833533935976644

Crimson Festival just happens to have a thematic PvP aspect going for it, but you can fully engage with the content without ever stepping foot in the arena.

[warped zinc]

Weird bc i have 100% success rate on it

[pseudo lagoon]

There is a thing called block

Happens to damaging skills, but doesnt happen to directly applied damage-less debuffs like forbid

[warped zinc]

Oh you use the tempering strike?

[pseudo lagoon]

Wait, temper is a direct debuff?

[warped zinc]

I use the debuff moves to avoid blocks

Yup

[pseudo lagoon]

Oh shit my dumb ass didnt know that lol

My bad

[keen escarp]

Did anybody notice that when you enter a WV the Chaos Scroll effect is gone?
And when you come back to your position it is still disabled?
Is this a desired behaviour?
Also the two chaos scrolls do not sum but one exclude the other one without any warning or info.

[low galleon]

I'm replying to you but my answer is not specifically targeting you but the overall discussion about PvP content discouraging new players or players without knowledge or gear. What about yelmogus towers? What about morrigan towers? The titan was an absolute pain for even experienced players so what are we going to do about that ? Next time you'll be better equipped and farm better and more. What about killing amorris and other super raids? How can it be done by an early T10 with poor gear and knowledge or not all the skills and classes and no Al's? Are we going to oversimplify everything for the love of whiny players that will quit at the first patch that makes their gameplay feel targeted? I seriously don't understand this feeling over protecting complainers that can only cry about everything that takes effort and grind which are the core of the orna gameplay imho.

[pseudo lagoon]

Ill tell you - easily. I remember a noob from our KD early t10 was able to do all that content, dont forget how ez it actually is when youre not doing ang content. Slow yes, but doable

Ill compare - imagine doing yelmogus on ang 42 with unupgraded t9 gear and buggane. Imagined? Thats exactly what it is like for beginners to encounter the fully equipped godforged e.t.c peeps on BoF in an event CENTERED around BoF

[low galleon]

The solution for the new players for example with raids or dungeons is party play with stronger people, fun fact that works with bof too. Have been doing it 2 or 4 players, it's just npc, when you match players it gets bugged and reroll into mobs. You get proofs and everything pretty easy and quickly.

[low galleon]

What's the difference between getting a win against another weak player every 20 fights and only being able to kill 20 amorri by themselves?

[torn wind]

vs pve, you always get better and so you know that at some point you will overcome anything. In pve, they also get better so you might actually never catch up. Even if it's 0AL pvp, it just means gear matters more... which they will always have better than you. It's not a good feeling and it's why pve should never be core in the game, unless you want the player base to atrophize around endgamers , and the game to slowly die because newcomers can never catch up in a core mechanic. Some pvp is ok if the player base wants it but too much, and you kill the game. That said this event didn't force pvp at all so it's fine, but it should have been clearer in the communication that nothing is out of reach without pvp (outside some cosmetics which is fine)

[pseudo lagoon]

Problem is - now there are no weak players because everyone got discouraged by getting oneshot by BeoA+cactus with 1100+ FS on first turn xD

[torn wind]

that you get better vs a morri with some investment, you don't pvp, not even comparable, as opponents get better as well

[low galleon]

So it's a balance issue due to a tweaked mechanism and not a content issue itself

[pseudo lagoon]

Yes and no

I mean i can win against that 7/10 times

But beginner players cant

I have godforged gear, best possible stuff. How can that compare to a dude using baldr gear

This month's event is to a big part the PVP content in bof. How are they supposed to farm crimson proofs?

[torn wind]

crimson proofs let you buy stuff you can buy with essences so that's not the point

[pseudo lagoon]

I get it that you occasionally encounter npc mobs, but i rarely see any "noobs" because obviously nobody likes gettinh nuked

[low galleon]

What's the big part there?

An aura?

Gambling adorn?

Nothing absolutely mandatory lol

[pseudo lagoon]

Ehhhhhh... "The Crimson Festival is all about war" part?

[low galleon]

So it's an event that features an improved PvP gain in a specific guild that has always been underlooked

[pseudo lagoon]

What exactly is your problem with dividing PVP in BoF into leagues?

Noobs vs noobs, medium vs medium, pro vs pro

[low galleon]

That we don't have the player base for that. But as I said my message wasn't directed specifically to you but a summary of the whole PvP complaint

[pseudo lagoon]

Everyone's gotta have the possibility to partake fairly

[low galleon]

Also it won't be any different than any game with rank system, they'll get to an higher rank somehow and then end up unhappy being wiped 20 times in a row until they go back to the previous league

[pseudo lagoon]

Problem is the PVP player pool is that everyone is in the same pool. If your bof guild is above lvl 20 - you surely did lots of pvp and would have no problem fighting pros would u?

Problem is the beginners dont participate in this big part of the event, the PVP because nobody wants to die 10 times in a row to an op dude

[low galleon]

I never had issues fighting pros even when I was level 200 lol I took my time to figure out strategies

Over 300 wins I've found only 2 people with blind immunity for example

[pseudo lagoon]

Yeah except on lvl 200 youre not matched with 250 lvl

[low galleon]

I'll tell you the final reason why a ranking system won't work

[pseudo lagoon]

Man i think youre really are not willing to see the point, and i will be ending my convo with you

[low galleon]

People will play Bof only this month

Then all the others that enjoy it will end up stuck without finding players

Cause they're into an empty rank

Good job on killing an already dead guild

[pallid maple]

Dividing it into leagues would only ensure that almost everyone faced mostly NPCs

Like how it already works for any tier other than 11

Or even T11 during any time but now

[torn wind]

if player pool size doesn't allow for ranking, which might be true, then decrease rewards when you beat an easy player and viceversa

[low galleon]

Yup I've been running the guild for 3hours straight multiple times and barely found a player

[low galleon]

Decrease rewards so you just don't play that content

[torn wind]

it's not healthy that an endgamer has to pray for the noob to get winstreak

or even worse than he has to try to match with his alt for that

[pallid maple]

I agree that rewards could use a rebalance for how they're distributed

Right now it's optimal to play during dead hours, build a winstreak against an alt, and ride that winstreak against NPCs

Since NPCs still give boosted rewards from streaking

[torn wind]

lag issues might be different for orna but building winstreak then party with alts guarantees npcs

[low galleon]

Once again party play removes all your issues

[pallid maple]

More like party play just ensures my issues happen 😅

[torn wind]

but in hoa party bof is unplayable for lag

[low galleon]

In the same way it solve all the issues for weak players against raids and difficult content

[pallid maple]

Party play lets you disengage entirely from the game and cheese things

[pallid maple]

Yeah pretty much

[low galleon]

So once again is a technical issue and not about the content

[torn wind]

noobs also tend not to have alts

[low galleon]

I'm not saying alts

[torn wind]

(btw i don't know if "noob" is considered a bad word, if it is pls tell me so i stop using it)

[low galleon]

Man you have kingdoms and communities

I've been doing bof in team last days with my friends that can't win too often

[torn wind]

anyway my only problem (to "protect" the less experienced , more casual playerbase) is that the event "looks like" you NEED to do pvp

yes it's true that's not the case but people spending 1-2 hours per week max won't go and check all details

[low galleon]

How does it look like mandatory tho?

[torn wind]

communication about that can be cleaner

[pallid maple]

I do actually agree with that

Right now if you open the monument guild you see all these important event items being sold for the proof that you can only get with PvP

[torn wind]

if you have a good kingdom, or check discord regularly and so on you quickly learn it's stuff you can get doing normal dungeons

[pallid maple]

If you're new to the game and don't know what you're doing, you might think that's the only/best way to get them

[low galleon]

Aren't all of them more effective throughout pve?

[pallid maple]

^

[torn wind]

but people less in the loop just feel "pvp event, me bad at pvp, event sucks"

[pallid maple]

Event crafting is also now 'hidden' in the slightly more difficult to get to event menu, rather than the guild, so if you open your monumental guild (which I assume many players do to look for gear and pets) that's all you see.

[torn wind]

ah also at lower tiers bof is a lot worse

[pallid maple]

At lower tiers BoF is just exchanging arena tokens for proofs

[low galleon]

Cause it's an underlooked guild that never got the right attention

[torn wind]

at least in hoa ppl have low tier alts to mess around conq guild for other ppl, and those are pvp built already, 100% unbeatable by normal ppl (like 1 year of events at t7 stuff like that)

[low galleon]

The crazy amount of patches about tweaks abused for years in the first days is a proof of it no?

[torn wind]

no i mean if you are a normal t7 you can't win

it's either 0 alts by endgamers are doing it , or you wait when they are done

it's worse than early t10 meeting strongish oppos

i don't do that in hoa, but some people idea of "fun" is building unbeatable low tier people to permalock conqueror guild slots at that tier

[hardy wagon]

?

[pallid maple]

Ah, sorry, I meant it was the first thing you saw when you opened the guild in the shop. You're right that it's also still in the guild

But I guess an issue might arise from players not knowing/realizing the powerful adornments they see in the shop drop from those raids. You have no way of knowing that without searching it on external websites if you haven't killed the raid before

[hardy wagon]

You can see the adornments associated with the raids in the Event Hub's Codex page, but it takes a marginal amount of menu navigation to get to.
And players have a history of not actually exploring menus (in my experience)

[low galleon]

In theory if we make up fake scenario. I'm a new player, I get wiped in PvP so I'm unhappy and don't play that. Guess I'll do some dungeons as usual, looks like I'm dropping proofs and essences from event mobs. I'll craft scrolls and find out I'm getting the things from there

Nothing beats the good old fuck around and find out

[pallid maple]

You say that like a logical player, but I assure you from things I see in #👋│general , #💡│suggestions , etc. that not everybody thinks things through before getting upset. And those are the people that do use Discord

Also from the amount of people that ask how to damage Fomorian enemies every time that event happens, despite the quest and event menu telling you how to kill them 😅