Revisiting New War Match Making

[late coral]

https://tenor.com/view/orange-cat-toilet-phone-gif-11214854527180848229

[jade nexus]

Dats me! Ive got major orange cat energy

[pastel kayak]

Just ban a Kingdom from matching for 24 hours if more than 50% of their matched roster doesn't attack or something, getting jailed for 24 hours when winning every attack or just losing 1 offense shouldn't be a thing

Buff rewards, give incentives for finishing wars asap, give more bench slots
I don't know what but please do something

[jade nexus]

For real. At this point Id even pay for "premium" kingdom tools like be able to carpet bomb a kingdom that isnt doing anything 🤣. Something. Anything.

[weary saffron]

./suggest carpet bomb

[copper kite]

Day 43 of asking to reduce hex/blessings research cooldown

[urban timber]

Alternatively, set wars back to 24 hour timers. Patience is a virtue.

[south timber]

I've heard there's oil in that Kingdom

[sinful temple]

Day 83863 of asking to be matched in more than 20% of wars, be that by prioritizing the strongest players as before or via a mechanic like the suggested “champions” one

[south timber]

Even champions get to rest on Sunday 🫂

[sinful temple]

I’ve been resting for a whole week

https://tenor.com/view/let-me-in-eric-andre-wanna-come-in-gif-13730108

[south timber]

https://tenor.com/view/tio-quim-quim-barreiros-calma-easy-chill-gif-14663351

[sinful temple]

I did not expect a gif of the king in here lmao

[south timber]

More likely to see him than the kheper :

[copper kite]

Skill issue

[copper kite]

A spicy suggestion, in-game chat for warring kingdoms

[jade nexus]

Id give my left arm for that

[copper kite]

https://tenor.com/view/honor-thank-you-for-your-sacrifice-gif-15150963

[woeful panther]

It would turn into the old COD/Halo 3 Xbox lobbies...and I'm for it

[copper kite]

https://tenor.com/view/those-were-the-days-curtis-payne-house-of-payne-good-times-good-memories-gif-22163985

[copper portal]

Spicy Suggestion 2, kingdom notification tab for when in dungeons/BoF, so that stuff isn't missed when sitting forever waiting for war to que 20 minutes into every hour toggling kingdom page on and off, when we could be playing.

[copper portal]

Oh, so two kingdoms could chat each other? Yes, please!!! Even better if we could get out of game notifications for orna if we wanted them!

[copper kite]

It could serve so many purposes, trash talk, random chats, war hit reminders, reasons for delaying/stalling, recruiting/poaching, trash talk, did I mention trash talk? I think I forgot to mention trash talk. Trash talk, within boundaries of course 🫡

[late coral]

Here is a nice fair fight. A 250AL to 85AL advantage is 133% more base stats than me.

[pastel kayak]

Maybe we should just make a Kingdom Wars Discord server

[copper kite]

You caught him slipping with the memory pet thou

[late coral]

All right... let's break down this stupidity.
He has nearly double my HP and triple my ward.
His doubled DEF, RES, and DEX means I have zero chance of hitting him on the first turn.
He one-shot me... end of the fight.
Not much to "learn" from this.

[pastel kayak]

His Ward is super low, you can easily oneshot him

Def and res are meaningless

[stuck fulcrum]

I would say is the other way around so much to learn from that, but you first you need to change your approach to that matter.

But again this the pvp content of the game, what you expect?
You want a handicap opponent so you can brag about it?

[late coral]

True... if he has double my DEX, there's a 60% chance my attack will miss.
Since he has double my DEX, he has zero chance of missing me.
His doubled ATT and MAG will do nearly full damage against my DEF and RES which is half of his.

But no problem... I just need to run Blood Ray Heretic and then I can make videos about how awesome and talented I am.
The odds of me winning this fight were zero.

[pastel kayak]

There are ways to increase your Dex and Accuracy on any class

[late coral]

You are afraid of a handicapping system, so YOU can brag?
You need more than double my stats so you can win?
I thought it was all about skill and knowledge?

Mike Tyson wants to feel good about all the effort he's put in, so they let him beat up 5th graders.

[weary saffron]

I don't think Def/Res is a mtchup problem. These stats are pretty bad unless you know your opponent is using a low M1 move. But yes, Hydrus is a pretty low dex class (and he actually has his memory hunting pet on), so pretty abuseable with the right build. But agree there was probably 0% chance you were winning this battle.

Let me ask, before this fight, what adaptations did you consider/make in order to improve your odds?

[stuck fulcrum]

No I'm not, but if i am putting time/ effort onto something I want that to be respected

And it is about knowledge skills,opponents.

Now if you are a 5th grader don't go there.
Put your kingdom on pacifics mode, problem solved.

[pastel kayak]

Please don't start flaming each other or the thread will be closed again

[late coral]

My Yelmogus Skirt and Headwrap are still in the Blacksmith's shed. so I was forced to go with my normal BeoH build.
If I had gone full defense with a blocking pet, I wouldn't have been able to hit him at all.
I took the chance that I'd hit him for some paltry amount on the first turn if I got lucky, and I'd still get one-shot on his return shot.
If his AI got stupid and tried to heal or ward, I might have gotten in a second hit.
But with his doubled stats, I'd have to hit him 5 or 6 times to get him close to death.

There is no reflect or counterattack II anymore, and they nerfed the crap out of it months ago.
So... my options were limited.

[weary saffron]

What about full offense with a blocking pet? No sense going tanky and block.

Is Eastern Regalia really your best offensive option, particularly while not taking advantage of the no follower bonus? I think a celestial with hybrid/crit adorns performs way better here?

Is this Conquerors guild, even so I think there are better options than Great Amarok?
Hydrus is going to knock your head off even with defense, do you have dex you can itemize?

I'm not saying AL do not give an advantage, they absolutely do. But its a bit much to come in say these fights are unwinnable, when you have an inefficient build and people are showing examples at lower AL.

Even at a high AL, I don't sleep through every fight. I have a full offense build I use against most tankytargets, a dex build I use against beowulf, a defense build I use against known realms/chakrams. I have a 60% accuracy hammer I use against people I know are dodge stackers.

[lost grotto]

It’s 40% you’ll miss, unless they’re a Dorado*

Point still stands, but yeah

[late coral]

Well, at some point they are unwinnable (unless we count a coin-flip can''t-miss glass cannon build, like Bloodray).
Any normal build will eventually run into an AL differential that can't be overcome.

[pastel kayak]

Without swapping to another class, your best option would have probably been to run a Crit Verse IV build with Arisen Rift pieces for extra Accuracy
Other ways to increase your Accuracy are: Ranger spec, Failnot off-hand, Ashen Phoenix pet
You could have also gone for a full damage build and used Magic Chakram instead to avoid having to increase your Dex/Accuracy as much
A Celestial Weapon with an off-hand like an Arisen Fey Crowsong would definitely give you more damage than the Eastern Regalia you are currently using
Note that I only mentioned pieces and pets that were available in the last couple months

[late coral]

With all that, what was the chance I could overcome a 133% advantage to all stats?
Maybe I'd have hit him once... I believe this was an unwinnable match.

He's a member of that kingdom. He deserves to fight.
But, if the only match is half his strength, it's a free gift and isn't a fight at all.
If that's all it is about, then just give him a point, give us a loss, and save us this facade of a "fight".

[weary saffron]

I disagree with the discrepancy between offense and defense in this game, but what your point now is not that that battle was unwinnable, but just confirming your point now is: that excluding a few 'coinflip builds' any single build will run into a wall with AL at somepoint

I don't really think that any build is a surefire nor is any AL, but Orna PVP is really about increasing your odds in the individual matchup, and you can increase these odds immensely through the options available in the game

[pastel kayak]

It could have been unwinnable in other circumstances but given his low Ward and the fact he had his Memory Hunting pet on, I really think it was winnable
I'm also BeoH, I'm lower AL than you and I consistently win on offense with the same AL difference

[late coral]

To be fair, you have 284ALs.
This is the same as you fighting someone with 417ALs and then having people tell you all the different options you had to win.

[weary saffron]

Yes I agree

So if I'm fighting someone that much stronger than me, I put as much damage in my build as possible and then maximize the odds I get a second turn by stacking pet block, parapet, dex etc. depending on the matchup

Just for reference, with the way damage works in this game, I am currently able to overkill myself on turn 1 by about by about double, with my 'standard' build, could optimize a bit more t1 damage if I needed it. So I don't thinki it is an issue 1 hitting a hypothetical 417 AL on T1.

[pastel kayak]

Nerf CD

[late coral]

Would you risk the whole match that he was? ...or flip a coin and try a Stun?

[jade nexus]

Everyone has a soft spot

[weary saffron]

Yeah if you truly believe you have 0% chance of winning straight, which I do disagree with. Why wouldnt you chance it on something? Then if it says Piwis is immune to sleep, you open notepad and write Piwis:immune to sleep

[robust breach]

I'm sorry, but what I'm getting here is "If my one cookie-cutter build can't beat XYZ, it's unfair and unwinnable."

[jade nexus]

I have 103 ALs and I lose settlements to someone level 230 because they use counter attack against me. Thats PVP in a nutshell

[weary saffron]

TBF its actually, if my cookie cutter buiild is still in the blacksmith, and I still didn't think about whether I should bring cookies or a pie, its unfair and unwinnable

[robust breach]

We both know pie is the real answer, NGL.

[late coral]

Well, let me suggest this:
Just match every single player in two kingdoms from strongest to weakest, and ignore any kind of fairness in matching.

...of course, if one kingdom doesn't have enough players, then all the unmatched players on the other team get an automatic point due to a forfeit.
That way, when we have 43 players sitting out of a 7v7, we win by a large margin.

If you don't have 50 members? then "It's a kingdom management issue."

[pastel kayak]

Ragebait used to be believable

[jade nexus]

In aome cases there are builds to fake you out. BOF but the player stacks Defense anyway . I throw RS2 and take a dirt nap because they zeroed me out. There is a lot of nuance. I always check amities. Always.

Take the loss and move on

[late coral]

You should sell the 3-sided dice that you use to craft your PvP strategy.

[jade nexus]

Caelani...I have been more than kind to you about this. I was you not all that long ago. The issue is how you approach PVP, its not your ALs. Its never been your ALs.

And im happy to help you

All you need do is reach out

[weary saffron]

and if you do think its 100% ALs, theres actually an event starting tomorrow that can give you the equivalent of 1-75 AL in 2 days if you really commit

[pastel kayak]

It's weird because you seem to care a lot about the outcome of your fights yet you aren't willing to do anything to increase your odds of winning

[robust breach]

I also have to say, it's entirely off topic and inappropriate to come here every time you think you've been unjustly matched in an "unwinnable" war. All you're doing is opening the door to be heckled and it frankly isn't constructive to the conversation. We get it, you're unjustly not winning your war matches. Give your suggestions on how to fix what you think is wrong with the matchmaking system, not examples of your personal plights.

[jade nexus]

Im definitely not heckling. Im literally reaching a hand out. Will it promise a 90 percent win rate? No , but youll have more tools available to you to make informed decisions

[copper kite]

https://tenor.com/view/easter-doe-eating-deer-eating-popcorn-funny-gif-4621167703268332056

[robust breach]

Oh I get that, but I just don't think coming here every time they find the match to be unjust is what this thread is even for.

Suggest a fix.

[jade nexus]

My win rate in my kingdom is 90% win on attack and 56% on Defense. Sometimes you just take it in the shorts

@late coral , if you'd like to move this to DMs , I can make some time for you throughout my work day ..lets put it to rest in here.

[late coral]

Very kind of you... thanks!

[late coral]

I've suggested the same fix for the last 6 weeks, but I get shouted down by the same voices every time.

[indigo glade]

Yep, he's played longer or grinded harder than you. I don't see an issue here. Also that's a very winnable fight. There are a ton of people who could help you with that across multiple servers. Probably a lot more productive to grow your game knowledge than continue to complain

[late coral]

In other words, "Git gud."
Thanks... that's helpful.

[weary saffron]

IMO don't think it was implemented yet, but I think Odie suggested matchups not 'favoring' closeness above 100AL, I think thats a somewhat reasonable solution. Personally, I don't think war 'needs' to be balanced at the expense of more matchups, there are already modes and utility options that eliminate that advantage. Additionally, in a game that is primarily about grinding, I think it makes sense to represent that full grind in a prestige-oriented mode like Kwars. But if its a consistent complaint from new players AND they would rather have close matchups than frequent and large wars, I think that could push things in the right direction.

[fair epoch]

Hexes are a thing... there's even one that wipes off all als from both sides

[indigo glade]

Thanks I try 🫡

[weary saffron]

If the system has an economic issue, then I think an economic solution is the answer. If its an issue of pride/prestige, I don't see why the system should be bowing to the lowest common denominator unless this one aspect of the game represents a serious retention issue.

[copper kite]

I did suggest reducing the cooldown of hexes/blessings possibly with additional florens cost but it keeps going up and odie misses it I guess

[sinful temple]

If he’s running BoF, Chakram or RS2 would easily obliterate that HP turn 1 while bypassing the dex issue.

If he’s running oracle, you could go all in on hybrid damage and either add 1 or 2 feet of Mnemosyne for the extra accuracy or run coral for BB1 bonus of extra accuracy and the chance to survive a hit back in case he survives.

Tough matchup for sure, but doesn’t seem unwinnable

One positive aspect of facing higher AL players is that they’re usually in one of the leaderboards, so you can use that to check what spec they’re running before going in and adapt accordingly

[copper kite]

With how's the mm is going chances are you'll face them again pretty soon so with all the suggestions come up with a few strats choose the one that seems the most reasonable at that point. If it doesn't work try again because you'll probably get them again

[late coral]

The last 10 matches I've had were all players within 5ALs of me, and there was a real challenge and strategy involved.
I won 7 and lost 3. Two of the ones I lost were more RNG than anything, and to be fair I also won 2 where I benefited fron the RNG.
RNG is just the nature of PvP in Orna. No biggie.

Our 50-member kingdom was finally getting 20v20 matches and higher, which is what both of our kingdoms needed economically.
Having 43 members sit out so we could get toasted in one hour by a 7v7 "It Burns" squad fell into the "why bother" category, but it was still a novelty and winning my match in that fight felt good. I've also lost matches to weaker players, but I always felt like there was at least a chance.

My entire point in my initial post this morning is that at some point, there is no reason for someone to have an advantage so large that it isn't worth participating in the match. A 3-way coin flip works in BoF, because you know you'll fight them again in a few minutes and you can change your stategy each time. It is more like a chess match.

IMO, any match exceeding an advantage of 50-75ALs is a garbage match and a free win for the stronger player.
I don't need to hear everyone boast about "I win those all the time."
I'd like actual statistics on how often a given AL advantage is upset by the weaker player.
What percentage is it for 25AL, 50AL, 75AL, and so on?

Obviously, that percentage drops as the gap increases. I'm curious when that percentage drops to "statistically insignificant".

[copper kite]

Burns ain't all that

https://tenor.com/view/hasbulla-hasbik-cute-meme-influencer-gif-13912399472759708013

Nothing a hex can't fix

[fair epoch]

Oh it is absolutely worth participating in that match. Fighting stronger players is how you get better at fighting stronger players. Eventually you will have to punch above your own weight. That's PvP in Orna too.

[urban timber]

https://tenor.com/view/big-head-fight-cant-fight-with-me-mismatch-gif-15546460

[copper kite]

I know the mm restrictions al 100+ folks was loosened a Lil but are there any other changes in the pipeline

[weary saffron]

Well if it wasn't balanced and everyone could fight but you got money for your losses that would also solve economy issue, no? You'd lose a quick war in ~1 hour and get rewarded for what you achieved.

I don't think you're going to find highly specific data for how much wins there are vs a particular AL advantage, but I can use examples of two folks from our kingdom. One joined December of 24, one joined Fall 25 at 30 AL. These members are both in the low 100s now and have a 94% and 88% winrate on attack respectively over 300-500 wars. They were certainly disadvantaged in many of these matchups, since they started relatively lower. But they both consistently grew and still used all of their 'outs' in the matchups they did have.

Also pretty sure @copper kite's kingdom beat us the other day, GRANTED our best player didnt get to fight.

[jade nexus]

Reminds me of one of the last wars I did with you guys , I had no expectation of winning and was out gunned by over 100 AL and I won it. Tbh I get far more of a dopamine hit from that than being 100 AL stronger than my opponent. Overcoming the challenge is the exciting bit.

[copper kite]

They're lucky

Also I plan on stopping at 99 als to avoid breaking their hearts

[late coral]

I don't think that works anymore.
I'm an AL85 and got matched against an AL218 this morning.

[copper kite]

Not as frequently as before thou right

[weary saffron]

Its very weird because I am definitely getting matched against lower AL people than I would be previosly, but also still getting matched very infrequently

[woeful panther]

Kings get matched regardless of the AL difference no?

[late coral]

Hard to tell... too small of a sample size.

[copper kite]

Our Titan here gets matched with al 90s all the time thou

[late coral]

Correct... but I'm not a King.

[copper kite]

You are a king of my hearts 💕

[woeful panther]

Ohhh, apologies...thought you were this whole time

[copper kite]

Incorporating all the changes must be hard thou since you can't prio which takes over which

Fairness or quicker matchmaking or the war size

[sinful temple]

True, I wasn’t matched

[copper kite]

https://tenor.com/view/princess-bride-battleofwits-challenge-gif-26547395

[weary saffron]

Ok I pick Quicker Matchmaking and Size 🙂

[copper kite]

Of course you do

[late coral]

Our King is an AL40 who has played more than 6 years and has a lot going on in his life right now.
I'm just an officer who is more active on Discord than he is.
I try to look out for the interests of our kingdom.

[copper portal]

I love that type of fight.

[copper portal]

Already have/had something like that in the works. @empty veldt remember the project you were working on!

[late coral]

Isn't that what the Unfelled Fight Club is for?

[weary saffron]

No I think thats for BoF, the mode where you can play without AL.

[copper kite]

Lower al Kings have it rough but they're also the most battle hardened 🫡

[weary saffron]

Only a tangential point but AL are so easy to get nowadays, there are really efficinet ways to AL up really quickly.

[fair epoch]

I finally got a chance to fight someone other than Ryu 🤣

[copper portal]

Nope, because they won't lift AL blocks in BoF guild.

[weary saffron]

You can probably get 100 AL in the time it used to take to get to like 15

They should let you have up to a 25% AL bonus in BoF guild

[copper portal]

He can probably get 100 AL by the time he finishes complaining about AL difference. 🤣

[weary saffron]

I mean just math alone, I've been playing for ~6 years and gained 100 of my AL this past year despite fairly consistent playtime if not less this year.

[robust breach]

I'm coming up on my 2 year mark next month, my main is AL 178 right now. It isn't hard if you keep your head down and GRIND.

[copper kite]

I'd rather stay capped and smack

[weary saffron]

I hit AL 200 in June and am now AL 284, also check back in 3 days.

[copper kite]

Imagine grinding in this day and age

[weary saffron]

Imagine wanting to do a grind *boots up Orna a game that is definitely not grindy

[pastel kayak]

Imagine tryharding on a mobile game *boots up Island on his phone and SCRCPY on his PC

[copper portal]

Exactly. I haven't even hard pushed ALs, nearly let them come naturally and have 20-30+ on every class, plus Magistrate. Just bumped my little RS like 15 yesterday and don't forsee "needing" to push for orns for a very long time. Got 20B now, but you betcha I'm going to keep pushing endless 🤣

Trick to the game imo, sometimes we gotta shut our mouths and play. Downside is if we are playing, the non-players cry so loud that stuff gets changed for worse behind our backs because the maincord threads aren't chaperoned enough.

[copper kite]

Normally its the two extremes being discussed and us average folks are left out

[weary saffron]

I see it altering matchmaking as a similar issue that WoW goes through, do new players/transplants probably enjoy the fact that you can insta-get/buy your way to basically endgame, sure. But those players typically don't stick around while you cater the game away from the core audience who feels like their grind is no longer valuable with seasonal resets (in Wow).

[copper kite]

Definitely the effort I had to do find medea

Nowaday folks are getting in days of playing the game 😭

I dont mind the change thou since its the same for everyone

[weary saffron]

My opinion is that a grindy MMO should continue to keep the endgame grind valuable while also powercreeping at a reasonable rate overtime. Orna has considerable powercreep that allows new players to keep up, a matchmaking restriction at the expense of the late game players doesnt really need to be on top of it.

[copper portal]

Agreed. PVP is the only area where the difference in investment is visible, so it should be left to shine as the sacred light that it is.

[weary saffron]

I know people will say anguish but I can assure you Ive basically softcapped it/hardcapped it for a lot of my play.

[copper kite]

Even if one can beat a higher al person in someway, defending against them is pretty hard unless rng favors you or you're cracked like me

[weary saffron]

Yeah thats why you gotta maximize your RNG

[empty veldt]

Yeah, it was all the monarchs of top 100 kingdoms. Umbrella kingdoms would be represented by the initial founder.

[copper portal]

Depending on what Phase 2 and 3 of kingdom rework gives us, it may be good to try and revamp it. Though kingdoms are swapping ranks really fast currently.

[south timber]

Are we still discussing with that ragebait about wars?

#👋│general message

The same person that says what's the point of playing if you're not ascending and using them

But then wants them cut out from wars lol

[robust breach]

LOL, that’s priceless, actually.

[jade nexus]

For levity sake, Itll be mad funny if we frothed over this for months only to find out the entire war mechanic was meant to change with phase 2 anyway. Id buy the dev team a coffee every week for a month for that laugh.
Howling. 😅

[robust breach]

I've been wonder about this myself... Is the war mechanic changing with the Kingdom overhaul anyway? Are the changes to the matchmaking algorithm meant to make more sense with the overhaul? What if this all ends up making more sense later once those changes are in place.

[pastel kayak]

There was never anything like that mentioned, Odie did say Gauntlets are getting reworked (or something is getting added to them)

[robust breach]

If I was Odie, I'd troll the lot of us THAT hard. Just sayin'.

[rustic geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/fadding-dog-traumatized-gif-10801559770686219962

[sinful temple]

Tbf, I don’t think Odie would be doing so many changes to matchmaking if he was planing on changing the entire system soon

[ruby tinsel]

Is there a world where we can both match high ALs and prevent curbstomps?

I don't think wars are really that important tbh and this is way more blown out than it probably needed to be.

[sinful temple]

I think a world where we keep the free-for-all matchmaking above AL100 while simultaneously prioritizing a kingdom’s strongest members would probably be the best meet-in-the-middle scenario

[sinful temple]

What I do know is that my enjoyment of the game has severely dropped. I’m getting matched maybe 1 out of every 7 wars, while our low AL players consistently get matched 90% of the time. I know that’s not the intention behind the system, but it feels like being punished for getting stronger.

I also think kingdoms like Civil and Hlid are probably struggling, since they’re all AL100+, meaning they get much longer matchmaking times

[robust breach]

We've gone from averaging a dozen wars in a day to 2 or 3.

[ruby tinsel]

How do you expect free for all 100+ matchmaking to go? There are way more of those in your kingdom than the majority of others so you'll be matched less

Or maybe im misinterpreting what you mean by free for all

[robust breach]

This isn't fun at this point, we all enjoy wars a lot and we're getting completely sidelined most of the time now.

[ruby tinsel]

How do you propose it be improved without reintroducing curb stomps?

Someone will always lose with every solution ive heard so far

[sinful temple]

I believe Odie made it so anyone above 100 can get matched with anyone in that group, regardless of AL gap (as in, the system doesn’t try to closely match those players like it does in the lower brackets)

[robust breach]

Frankly, I think the brackets themselves aren't working well, at least for us. We only have 8 members ranging from 129 to 178 AL. Is there really that big of an issue matching our people with players in the 70's or 80's or is that what you consider a "curbstomp?"

[sinful temple]

Depends how you define losing. I believe right now everyone is losing economy-wise, since we’re all getting on average less wars, so less KOrns for everyone.

IMO the best solution is to loosen up restrictions in matchmaking, while making it less punishing to be on the losing side of a lopsided match. Increase KOrns won on defeat and ties, and making it so wins against higher AL opponents give more KOrns would incentivize players to try their hardest in those fights and not feel as punished even if they lose

[ruby tinsel]

Thatll make it only marginally better. If your kingdom has 10x 100+ ALs but most good kingdoms only have 1 or 2 that means youll be matched 20% of the time

[sinful temple]

Currently you get close to 0 KOrns on a lost war, so that definitely aggravates the feeling of getting matched in a tough fight

[robust breach]

And laughably NOTHING for a tie.

[ruby tinsel]

Economy feels better than it did before any of this started tbh

[lost grotto]

You can fight against someone with 50-100AL more than you, but you can't fight against not being matched in 5-6 wars in a row. One you can do something about it, the other, you can't.

And second is more unfair, I'd rather get matched and lose than not play at all, although that's just a personal opinion.

And it happened to me little ago, despite having 65AL, not 100 or 200

I'm also in the middle when it comes to AL in my kingdom, more or less, so it wasn't prioritizing the higher AL, either

[ruby tinsel]

Right thats personal opinion. Id rather not have a near guaranteed loss. Rather not play at all (just referencing wars here)

[sinful temple]

I’d definitely disagree with that. We had 205 wars in the last 30 days before the last set of changes. Those changes haven’t been out for even close to a month and we’ve already dropped to 150. That’s an average 25% loss in income, not accounting for the wars we’ve tied/lost because our top players get sidelined

[ruby tinsel]

1 year ago

Was the comparison

[lost grotto]

I wouldn't say any loss is guaranteed (or near it), since I win most of my higher AL matches and I've beat players with 100-150 on the def as an AL65 GS

Just a matter of trying

[robust breach]

At what point do you peg something as a "near guaranteed loss?" 25% AL disadvantage? 50%? 100%? I think the threshhold changes drastically depending on who you ask.

[lost grotto]

Yeah, you're in a disadvantage, but it's never impossible to win those

[ruby tinsel]

Near guaranteed = never impossible yeah we are saying the same thing

[ruby tinsel]

What AL are you? Helps for context

[sinful temple]

End of day everyone wants to feel like their efforts aren’t going to waste. Getting matched in a tough matchup and getting nothing for it, (even if you win it, in case your kingdom loses) sucks. Investing into getting stronger and not being allowed to play also sucks.

Giving KOrns based on matchups won for losses and ties would make it worthwhile to actually engage in those matchups

[robust breach]

178

[ruby tinsel]

What is the lowest AL matchup that you think is fair at your AL

Ill ask that a different way - is there an acceptable range of ALs we should expect to match against for each player?

If that doesnt exist we can throw all bracketing off the table

[stuck fulcrum]

I don't know how matmatching works but right now we are facing hlid and not geppu, or bordoadas, are called despite they are all 170+al(by they i mean hlid) so🙃
Clearly matmatching is not working how is suppose to, or it is🤔

[ruby tinsel]

Depends who you ask

[robust breach]

You won't like or probably even believe my answer, but I personally don't care if you put me up against someone twice my AL, bring it on! The definition of "fair" is completely arbitrary.

[ruby tinsel]

Yeah I don't because theres maybe 100 players total higher than your AL

So pretty easy to say

But i agree fair is arbitrary

[robust breach]

And I have no problem fighting them on the regular.

I just want to fight. Period.

Not sit.

[ruby tinsel]

Same if i were 178 ALs

[sinful temple]

Is it fair to say that the unfairness some people feel is, in part, related to the reward, or lack thereof , behind that?

[ruby tinsel]

Not really

Its a debate of whether this is fun or not

[sinful temple]

I mean, this whole thread started because of people complaining they weren’t able to sustain KRaids for their kingdom because of how these wars affected their income

[ruby tinsel]

I assure you korn income is better than it was a year ago

Regardless of how we spin this matchmaking

So thats a bad argument

[robust breach]

Not for us.

[sinful temple]

If we’re going by fun this is going to be much harder to come to an agreement. I’d have fun fighting guys like @robust breach even if I was AL 50

[robust breach]

I assure you.

[ruby tinsel]

Hence opt in opt out

Go have fun

[sinful temple]

We’re already seeing terrible matchmaking times. Further separation into 2 different systems would just outright ruin them

[ruby tinsel]

All 100000 kingdoms can freely match across all ALs or no ALs

No brackets

Everyones happy

?

Shoot this idea down I really dont see any problem with it

[sinful temple]

At this point I’ll try anything as long as I get to fight

[ruby tinsel]

No brackets, AL opt in / out system?

[sinful temple]

I truly don’t care if I’m fighting AL1 or AL350. Just let me play the piece of content I enjoy the most

[sinful temple]

Sure, I’d test that. I’ll test anything until we can find something that works. This current system clearly isn’t that

[ruby tinsel]

Ship it

@robust breach @lost grotto @stuck fulcrum ?

Tagging those in the current discussion

[ruby tinsel]

This

[stuck fulcrum]

Am in.

I am having fun doing pvp, regardless of losing or not

Not been chosen for war is killing the game for me.

[lost grotto]

Similar to what was proposed here, being the biggest concern MM times going up from dividing the queue.

#1458462120902394091 message

[ruby tinsel]

I dont think there should be a reward difference

And it would arguably be a less divided queue

2 brackets instead of 5

And its selected

Not forced

We can make assumptions all day but ultimately wont know how this goes until implemented.

The theory:
People can play how they want to play. Both fun and rewarding. You dont have to be on the receiving end of something you dont want to play, and get matched against everyone else who wants to play the same way.

Nobody can complain about curb stomps or lack of matching because they have a choice

[robust breach]

I'd be game for giving it a shot, yes. Like others have said, not getting the matches is what's killing us, let's try something new.

[ruby tinsel]

Lets try it

The default can be opt in AL so everyone automatically gets binned into that

[robust breach]

I wonder if it would even be possible to have wars in both divisions within a single Kingdom? Members can opt in to Restricted and Unrestricted classes and those divisions fight seperate wars?

[ruby tinsel]

We could poll something like:

Do you like the idea of AL opt in / opt out bracketless matchmaking?
-yes
-no

If you were to participate, which matchmaking would you pick in an opt in/opt out AL system?
-allow ALs
-disable ALs

[ruby tinsel]

Not sure how easy that would be to implement and still get everyone to match.
Opt in system is at least just black and white. Match whoever is similar size and queueing. Easy

[robust breach]

That idea was more of a "down the road" addition if opt in/out actually shows some legs.

[south timber]

Are we considering adding 2 different matchmakings?

Considering the 24h cooldown between 2 kingdoms

[ruby tinsel]

Not adding

Remove all bracketing

Pick yes ALs or no ALs when matching

[south timber]

Do you mean that as a setting before looking for a war or a single player option before attacking?

[ruby tinsel]

Setting before looking for war

You can toggle it at any time

Not finding a match on one side and dont mind the other? Toggle

[south timber]

So that would split the matchmaking in 2 different queues

[ruby tinsel]

So?

Theres tons of kingdoms

[south timber]

I believe that another complaint was about longer queues

[ruby tinsel]

Thats the main thing this solves compared to current state in addition to making everyone happy

A split queue doesnt mean long queues

Remember you can switch over at any time

I think this is an unproven fear

No bracketing within either system

Just match first available

[south timber]

I mean on a similar note I was suggesting something similar couple of weeks ago

Without having a split matchmaking

The toggle would force everyone in the kingdom into a rule regardless of their opinion

I was thinking of the possibility of players to set themselves with war roles

So you can decide if you want to be matched with anyone regardless of the Al, or if you want no AL matches

Then it will match against other members with the same settings

So it's a personal decision

It's a different bracket from the actual that counts AL

[ruby tinsel]

If easy to implement thats fine i just worry that would make matching worse because now youll be trying to match the size of all players with each selection with another kingdom of similar distribution

Could be an unproven fear, but on paper a black and white full kingdom toggle would result in the most matching for players

I also feel like within kingdoms, members share similar philosophy. I know for a fact it burns would opt into ALs. I know for a fact Alpine would toggle around.

[south timber]

That's only if you consider very specific kingdoms with a more uniform distribution of power and mentality. For example in sess we have a wide range from highest to lowest AL, some would prefer to stay low AL in wars to have a better chance of winning, others would want to make a full usage of their ALs.

I mean some of my builds can't work at low ALs so I'd end up with a very limited pool of choices and gameplay

[sinful temple]

I do think, if we went down this route, it would have to be a kingdom setting. Making it be a player setting sounds like a nightmare for matchmaking

[ruby tinsel]

All goes back to the kingdom philosophy. You can toggle to make everyone happy. Point is you'd find matches on either side of the toggle

[south timber]

Mathematically I'd split it into a specific logic that would be like the AL bracket systems

[ruby tinsel]

Which isnt working is the problem

[south timber]

No the problem is it doesn't let the highest into the game

If we remove the AL bracket and make it AL and no AL it's easier

Instead of trying to get close AL games which is what affects the queue timings for many

So if my 30 member kingdom has 18 with free for All settings and 12 with 0 Al, then against it burns we'll get the 18 matched randomly, if there's room and someone in their kingdom with the 0 Al setting then they'll get matched too

But the highest portion will be prioritized

Thornius kingdom could pick the most convenient option to avoid 21hrs matchmaking cause if they're all free for all then they'll get matched accordingly with anyone in the room

I'm offering an option to allow lower AL and level players to feel protected and grow properly, while being part of bigger communities and kingdom such as Jotunheim kingdom or sessr

And let the big guys have fun smashing eachother without making the matchmaking overly complex in 3 brackets with Al gap restrictions and dynamic logics beyond my understanding

[neat peak]

I like this thinking.

It gets high als matches but also let's low al's not get smashed.

I personally don't love smashing players that have no shot. It doesn't make me feel good.

I've been really liking the fair fights recently but I'm sure it can be improved so everyone is happier. (158 als) I'm literally this high in als because I need to be to have a shot against 200+ als.

[ruby tinsel]

@south timber i think we agree generally what needs to happen which is great. My fear with your proposal -

Lets say your kingdom has one or two players opted into ALs. The quickest matched kingdom has 5. 3 of those guys from the other kingdom dont get matched.

It actually would restrict matchmaking options imo

Too many combinations of opted in and out players where too many players would get left out of wars in order to get quicker matching

Does that make sense?

[south timber]

How would that make it more restrictive than the actual one with 3 different AL brackets tho?

[ruby tinsel]

I just explained but maybe it didnt make sense - let me try again

Lets say you have 100 kingdoms, each with 20 members

Each kingdom has a different distribution of members as much as possible i.e. one is 19/1, the other is 18/2, 17/3, opted in/opted out etc etc

Youd have 4 other kingdoms with exactly the same opt in distribution

If you ever matched against one with a different distribution, players would get left out

Which i would expect to be very frequent

[south timber]

Isn't what's already happening tho? That's what I don't understand. Some days ago we had Naro vs It burns, 7 players only cause of the actual bracket systems with the AL restrictions and Gap between each player. Naro Is a 50 members kingdom widespread with different levels and it burns I think around 25ish people

[ruby tinsel]

We are trying to make it better than whats already happening

[south timber]

Yes that's what I'm saying

Let me see if I can expose it differently using your scheme

But we already have players left out and actually more often than we've ever had

In my logic I see the system I'm suggesting as an improvement cause it will be just 2 options. One with a wider range without any restrictions so that would make everyone happy about their draft% and the other will keep the initial idea that Odie had with the changes so we protect the new players. So we have kingdoms with different AL distributions, we could have kingdoms with different toggles distribution. Let's use the 18-2 and the 15-5 options as you said, next war the other 3 could be drafted, or just 4 or just 1 or everyone, maybe there will be some of the free for all left out as well. It would be something closer to the matchmaking we had before December, with an extra layer of protection for the lowers. I mean even before the big changes of December we had wars with people left out cause of kingdom size as well.

I acknowledge your idea of the full kingdom toggle, but since I'm coming from kingdoms with many members that have different approaches to the grind and PvP I think that could kill some of the nice communities we have

[ruby tinsel]

So youre suggesting an individual toggle system that also has a rotation to make unmatched players next up in future matches?

[south timber]

Yes something like that

The more you get unmatched the more it's likely to be drafted next time

[ruby tinsel]

I like it for sure im just trying to propose something easy to implement

[south timber]

So we have a full rotation

[ruby tinsel]

We agree the only difference is proposing something realistic for NF

[south timber]

But realistically in terms of statistics, even without a programmed logic that promotes that habit

It's very likely that with a wider pool of kingdoms where the mm is possible, then the frequency of wars will be increased and everyone will get their proper amount of war time during the day/week

[urban timber]

We could just incentivize toggling off wars all together (Peaceful kingdoms) and remove all matchmaking restrictions period 😄

[ruby tinsel]

Some people want to battle just without curbstomps

[sinful temple]

Just go with whatever the simplest iteration of that suggestion is and we can go from that. Just let me fight

[ruby tinsel]

^ thats where im at

[urban timber]

Yeah me too but that isn't Orna at this point, the curb stomp is ubiquitous

[ruby tinsel]

Defer to NF. Opt in opt out however is easiest

[copper portal]

I would argue that there should definitely be a reward difference. If you manage your kingdom better and keep timely players around to keep things moving, that is definitely worth more than having someone sidelining everyone else's war back to back to back because their leadership couldn't care less enough to cut their waste. Want more reward? Put in more effort! That's how the entire game works. This is the same type mentality that wants to slow everyone else down because someone else can't keep up.

Or, as previously proposed, 3hr kills switch on wars following the last person to attack. Someone new attacks, restart that timer. We're stuck on Rustic Temple for another festive 24 hour war AGAIN now. This thoughtful but less than functional new system is appropriately wrecking kingdoms that do put forth the effort in favor of those that should be permanently pacified.

@lost grotto I feel that. We get stuck with the ilk far too often as well.

[weary saffron]

I'd be up for trying whatever, but my sense is that if matchmaking was divided further both sides would start getting less matchups. One side, likely whatever the 'default' is, would have a larger pool of players and then the other side would hurt even more economically. I think this would eventually just cause most players to gravitate toward the 'default' side and the other side to benearly dead.

[pastel kayak]

Yeah I think fragmenting the playerbase further is the worst we can do, might be wrong tho

[quick lake]

If mm time is a priority, then anything that limits mm candidates will be a problem

[neat peak]

I dont think mm time is a priority unless your a micro kingdom with 6 members. The problem is high al players are not getting matches because there is no one suitable or they just keep playing the same players.

[ruby tinsel]

I understand what you're getting at, but 0 AL pvp takes effort that you are definitely discrediting

And surely mm time is shorter with 2 black and white buckets than having to sort through AL bins

[ruby tinsel]

It wouldnt be 'divided further'. No AL brackets for matching. Remove those, add an opt in toggle

[neat peak]

More players playing also. Not a kingdom of 50 with 8 players playing...

[weary saffron]

I get what your saying, I never really thought it a good solution to matchmake based on individual members levels rather than whole kingdom matchups. But I do think that when you make a binary system where the kingdom can select between the two, there would be a pretty quick shift to whichever one is showing more frequent matchups/better economics.

[ruby tinsel]

And that should be OK. With enough kingdoms there should be enough matching in 2 binary modes.

You can always toggle between the two. There will always be kingdoms in either bin. If you cant get a queue and are gunning for match speed, swap bins. Whats wrong with that?

I feel like its way harder to match a 200 AL and not curbstomp without this type of system where there are no AL barriers/bins

I highly recommend that we try something like this before we jump to conclusions on how it would go

[neat peak]

High AL's are going to have a huge advantage with no als also because they have the gear to play every class

[ruby tinsel]

We could poll something like this if people are too scared

[pastel kayak]

I don't think I understand what you are suggesting
You are saying anyone is gonna get matched against anyone regardless of AL but some people can opt to play without ALs and get matched with whoever opted in from the enemy Kingdom?

There are also no brackets now either so I'm not sure what we are talking about

[sinful temple]

S2’s suggestion is a kingdom-wide option. Either kingdoms go into matchmaking as AL-enabled or as AL0

[pastel kayak]

Then how isn't that fragmenting the playerbase?

[neat peak]

How many wars have you been in lately @sinful temple ? That will answer Rox's question

[sinful temple]

1 out of every 6 on average I believe

Today was a great day, I got to be in 2 out of 6

[weary saffron]

I didnt even get matched against Hild those guys gotta step it up

[sinful temple]

Same, I missed both Hlid and Civil

[neat peak]

So right now the highest AL players are not playing so we are trying to come up with a solution to make everyone happy

[sinful temple]

Whatever system gets implemented, I’d just like it to prioritize 2 things:

• matchmaking speed, so we can get more wars and not have anyone lose kingdom income
• prioritize matching a kingdom’s strongest players, to accurately translate a kingdom’s power in wars

[pastel kayak]

I don't think that's a solution though, what you are getting with that system is both queues being slower than they are currently at the beginning until at some point most of the Kingdoms are gonna join the same queue because it's the fastest, then 1) if the AL queue has less Kingdoms, high ALs are still gonna have less total Wars and 2) whoever isn't in the most played queue is gonna make a thread and cry about being forced into something they don't like because otherwise they don't make kOrns

[sinful temple]

Im not sure that’d be the case. As it stands, matchmaking as slowed down because the system matches most players with players in a similar AL bracket. S2’s suggestion would eliminate that if I understand correctly, so you’d be setting up a new “barrier” but removing the current ones

[copper portal]

I play enough BoF not to compare Wars to 0AL pvp. 0AL pvp is a simple fix. Put on ALs 🤷 Unfortunately, mm time still isn't the best. Not the worst we have seen, but definitely waiting between wars pretty often.

[sinful temple]

It’d basically be the original system with 2 queues. Did I get that right @ruby tinsel ?

[pastel kayak]

High ALs have been very vocal about wanting to use their advantage so far but if everyone who's been complaining about getting stomped opts for the no-ALs queue, isn't it obvious there are gonna be either the same or even less Wars than now?

Unless we lift the 24h cd and the highest AL Kingdoms keep matching each other

[copper portal]

Exactly, and what that is going to lead to, is players putting no effort into getting better.

[sinful temple]

Im honestly convinced the people complaining about ALs are a vocal minority and most kingdoms would probably default to AL enabled wars

[weary saffron]

I dunno, I think anyone with an 'above average' AL spread would favor the AL on system. I think the other one would be low AL & PvP Elite kingdoms (which im not sure allieviates the stomp issue)

[copper portal]

I would like to think so, but I don't want to advocate for a diseased mindset like that to have a chance at growing popularity.

[pastel kayak]

What's the point then if the no-AL queue is gonna be much slower so people are still gonna complain about not making enough kOrns?

While still giving less Wars to the AL queue

I'm really struggling to understand who's gonna benefit from this system

[neat peak]

If they want more wars they go to the other Q. Right now there is no options slow q's tiny wars high al's not getting matched.

[pastel kayak]

I absolutely agree high ALs should be matched more often but I really don't think that's the best solution

[neat peak]

how about you give us the solution

[pastel kayak]

I did suggest a lot of different things

[sinful temple]

We pretty much seem to have 2 running broad proposals to address the current issues:

1- Split matchmaking into AL-enabled and AL0 queues

2- Alleviate matchmaking restrictions while implementing economy changes to make it worthwhile to still engage in matches where there’s a mismatch between players.

Did I miss something?

[pastel kayak]

I guess those two are the main and @ Sokam number two would be my suggestion

[weary saffron]

I still think this is an economics problem masquerading as a fairness problem. While I understand some kingdoms are proponents of equalized PvP, I don't know if that applies to the average low level who would have been complaining about wars, if they still had any sort of income.

[pastel kayak]

It is an economics problem, that's why that suggestion would make that portion of the playerbase who's currently complaining complain even more

[neat peak]

We could have both issues also. I dont love seeing a tie as worthwhile as a loss.

[copper portal]

And the 3 hour kill switch if activity in war stops progressing.

Whoever wins, wins.

[ruby tinsel]

You guys are making so many assumptions idk what else to say

[copper portal]

I do apologize, my natural speech may come accross as aggressive but I don't always intend it that way.

[sinful temple]

Is there a chance your view is also skewed by being a PvP community active member in a PvP centered kingdom that doesn’t have that many high ALs though?

[ruby tinsel]

Nope my view is pvp was peak in the days where everyone was lvl 225-250 and less than 50 ALs

Grinding more als for pvp hasnt brought me more fun like those days

Because grinding those ALs has nothing to do with pvp

[sinful temple]

Most people I’ve seen complaining that don’t mention the economy issue as a big motivator behind that have been from Alpine. There’s nothing wrong with that, we all have different opinions on the matter, but it’s important to assess how prominent every complaint is

[copper portal]

That sounds more nostalgic. I can agree with that though. It's gonna suck when I run out of white whales to hunt.

[weary saffron]

I do think theres a lot of assumptions, might be worthwhile for NF to put out one of those polls through their non-discord channels. That offers like a bunch of overlapping questions liek : strongly agree agree etc...
In kingdom wars I prefer income over fairness
In kindom wars I like to use AL:
In kingdom wars I prefer fairness over frequency... etc etc etc.

[copper portal]

For my team, it boils down to economy.

[copper portal]

💯 my only thought is that not every base of question may be covered. Being thorough is important here, but also thinking a lot of players may be lazy on input just like they can be in wars.

[ruby tinsel]

I still don't understand how an AL opt in / out system wouldnt solve everyones problems and make everyone happy.

• people dont have to get curbstomped if they dont want to
• people can choose whichever system gives them a better economy
• high ALs will get matched way more
• respects the grind for those who grinded ALs

[weary saffron]

Yeah I mean by default these surveys would generally only hit an engaged playerbase, maybe NF can give like an in game item for surveys in the future.

[ruby tinsel]

We can put a survey out

[sinful temple]

If that were to be implemented, I’d still like to see prioritizing higher AL players getting matched be reimplemented. Otherwise you’re not fixing the issue of high AL players not getting matched

[ruby tinsel]

@weary saffron

[weary saffron]

I know we can put a survey out, but I think the onus for these changes were from playerbases outside of Discord unless I'm misremembering.

[ruby tinsel]

Or just match everyone in your kingdom equally 🤷‍♂️

[pastel kayak]

I just checked and my Kingdom has three players above AL200 other than the King but their partecipation is much higher than what you reported, I guess it's because you have a lot of players around the AL100 range so they are getting prio'd over you as fairer matchups?

[quick lake]

Ultimately, it does depend on what the majority preference is…

If majority of kingdoms prefer AL disabled, then AL enabled kingdoms have less potential matchups - further exasperating the problems we see due to smaller AL pool size. This doubles down on the “why would I ascend?” feedback - they’ll be matched far less

If AL enabled kingdoms are dominant, then the pool of AL disabled pool is small, thus limited matchups and hurting kingdom orn economy

I generally prefer a solution that doesn’t split the mm pools, because either way someone will get less matchups and economy will suffer

[copper portal]

By this, my kingdom has dropped over 10m k.orn since changes but grind hasn't changed much per our players.

[ruby tinsel]

Some players like ALs, some players dont. The issue already exists and is consistently controversial i dont see how itll be exacerbated in any way

This gives both players an option now

[quick lake]

We can poll to get a general consensus on what the majority decision would be, but either way one side of the camp would suffer the consequence

If we had a massive AAA playerbase, we could do whatever. But we are dealing with an indie game populace here

[sinful temple]

What are your thoughts on the other proposed solution? Increasing KOrns won in defeats and ties, by giving the losing kingdom x Orns per every won matchup. With a potential boost if the player beat an opponent at a high AL deficit

[ruby tinsel]

I dont see a system where everyone is happy otherwise

[sinful temple]

This would allow for loosening matchmaking restrictions, since players would actually have something to motivate them to fight for even in more mismatched fights

[pastel kayak]

Also a potential decaying boost based on how fast the whole offense has been completed, to promote attacking asap which would result in more Wars overall

[quick lake]

I’m okay with a reward system that just rewards per battles won - regardless of winner/loser/tie, if that is the proposal. Wins can just be for LB

[copper portal]

Maybe have that boost benefit whichever side finishes their war the fastest.

[ruby tinsel]

Thats great and all for the people who care about rewards but what about those who dont want to fight at a 100 AL deficit?

[copper portal]

Reward for winning should still be a bit higher for those that earned it.

[pastel kayak]

I think it should be more something like the boost starts at +50% and decreases by 10% for each hour without completing the offense

[weary saffron]

Yeah would think winning could increase your reward by a factor

[sinful temple]

Yes, the proposal was that paired with a loosening of matchmaking restrictions to allow for faster matchmaking. @weary saffron wrote the initial proposal I believe, he can probably explain it better than me

[copper portal]

Tell those players to play BoF 🤷

[ruby tinsel]

We've seen too many in and out of our kingdom quit because of this, btw

Ignoring this issue would be a mistake imo

[pastel kayak]

I think we'd just need to make BoF great again after fixing the War issues

[ruby tinsel]

We've made bof improvement posts for years

[sinful temple]

Ignoring the opposite issue would be one as well. We’re already seeing a lot of people over here disheartened by the current changes

[ruby tinsel]

I still dont want to get curbstomped in wars from 100+ AL deficits

[ruby tinsel]

Exactly

But we shouldnt be picking one over the other

• split the system -

[weary saffron]

My suggestion was this: #1458462120902394091 message

Numbers open to tweaking but I think a system like this would leave a lot of people happy, even with a level of disadvantaged matchups.

[sinful temple]

Im trying to be pragmatic here. If Odie thinks the split would be a bad idea, I trust his judgement on that, he has more data than we do

[weary saffron]

But I think the studio would be incentivized to do this more if people we're playing, its really not unplayable and decently lucrative in current state... I grinded to 50 in it a few months ago and a lot of the people you would expect to be playing it just are not there.

[ruby tinsel]

Some people like the game without feeling forced to grind ALs

[pastel kayak]

He's talking about playing BoF more

Odie said they are not very motivated to improve BoF because its playerbase is very small so they'd rather prioritise other areas of the game they think impact more people

[weary saffron]

I would expect those people to be competing for BoF leaderboard/prestige and just not there.

[copper portal]

I agree here. If they don't have the fortitude to keep improving and aren't motivated by strong players to get better, maybe a passive kingdom is just their best option 🤷

[quick lake]

I think players that like PvP should be able to enjoy both BoF and Kingdom Wars. We shouldn’t be telling anyone to pick one

[pastel kayak]

I enjoy BoF, Kingdom Wars and Settlements despite being low AL

[weary saffron]

I agree with you there, I enjoy BoF, Kingdom Wars and Coqnuerors guild for their differences, thats why I think lessening AL impact in Kwars, homogenizes them.

[south timber]

Honestly BoF works only cause of the 50dmg cap

Otherwise having ALs or not will still turn into one shot meta, no real tactics or strategies

[weary saffron]

I get my share of arena during off-hours of BoF 🙂

FWIW I like colliseum

[ruby tinsel]

Some low ALs like to get curbstomped for the occasional win

Some low ALs dont like to get curbstomped

Some high ALs want to use their ALs regardless of the matchup

Some high ALs dont enjoy curbstomping

Some people care about the reward most

Some people care about fair matchups the most

How do we appeal to all of these folks at once?

[weary saffron]

Im actually rank #14 BoF so its not like I say no-AL content is bad, just think each type has its own + and -

[pastel kayak]

I also don't really understand all these "getting curbstomped" complaints
I admittedly mostly play against "weak" players given my AL (33) but I've only been playing for less than four months and I did play and win defenses against players with more than twice my ALs and I also won defenses against top Kingdoms like ABS and Sessrumnir which I believe provide proper builds to their members
As of this morning, my stats in the last 24 Wars were
Offense: 24 wins - 0 losses (100% winrate)
Defense: 15 wins - 4 missed attacks - 5 losses (79% winrate)
With how this game works, I believe I'm gonna be able to overcome even greater AL differences in time and even if I were to get stomped from time to time, I don't think it would be such a big issue

[ruby tinsel]

Is this a flex? I try not to list my pvp background in these discussions

[south timber]

I'm coming back with a reworked idea from my previous option

Instead of the no AL toggle and the free for all

Which I still believe should be player choice and not kingdom toggle

What if we offer a toggle to enable an AL cap to somewhere middle ground like 30-50als?

So you can decide to play free for all or within a range of 30 Als, If you've more you get shackled

[sinful temple]

Same issue as the other proposal

[south timber]

It's less restrictive

[sinful temple]

It’s still a split queue

[south timber]

Cause it enlarges the pool

[sinful temple]

Enlarging one pool means reducing the other

[south timber]

Not really

[sinful temple]

Your pool is total amount of players engaging in wars. For one pool to increase, the players needs to leave the other

[south timber]

Cause let say I'm Al 28, I'm in the free for all option. I can be matched with both queues

[quick lake]

I think a potential solution here - if we are to explore this, is an individual preference, not option. An individual preference does not split mm, and can be skirted if the queue does not support a decent match

ie: prefer non-AL, get matched with a similar preferenced individual when available. Otherwise AL enabled

prefer unbounded AL? Get matched with AL 1-300 when available

[pastel kayak]

No it's not a flex, quite the contrary
I meant that if a new player like me can still achieve good results in "unfair" conditions, a much more knowledgeable player like you should be able to do the same with even less problems
I understand you might not enjoy it as much and I see your point from a "competitive" PoV but I think it's not as big of an issue as some people make it and I also think it's rightful for high AL players to get an advantage from their grind in at least one PvP content
If anything, BoF should be improved so that you (but even myself) would be happier about it and wouldn't care about Kingdom Wars that much

[quick lake]

It’s messy, but could satiate everyone without hurting mm time

[copper portal]

I'm open to a trials.

[quick lake]

you can find them in the Traveler’s Guild Hall. Prep some manifests

[sinful temple]

Same, I’ll test anything at this point

Would players be chosen randomly from the kingdom pool, or is there any chance we can go back to giving stronger players some sort of priority?

[quick lake]

my words are just 9pm spitballing, not future patch notes

[copper portal]

Nothing wrong with testing and discussion.

[sinful temple]

So it’s shipping in 10min? Got it!

[ruby tinsel]

This is better at least Ill take it

Trying to propose easy to implement things but if youre up for that, good to me

[south timber]

Just a question, because we were thinking of something before. Is that coding wise possible and not too complex to implement, a system that would prioritise players that didn't get drafted in previous wars?

So we could end up with an overall stable attendance to wars from everyone

[neat peak]

Anything is possible with the power of claude code!

[pastel kayak]

I still wish we can at least try both the "champions" system and the boosted rewards + wider mm range some day

[south timber]

But as a priority that doesn't have to be tested I'll definitely implement Korn rewards for the wins achieved both on attack and defense

We could already see an improvement in the kingdom economy

[quick lake]

people code stuff that puts people on the moon. I’m sure this is feasible

[copper portal]

In Hollywood 🤣

[south timber]

For sure. I'm just trying to keep in mind that I'm talking to an indie studio and I've 0 knowledge in IT or anything related to that

[pastel kayak]

At least make stalemates give kOrns 🥲

[south timber]

And 10k CAD, tax free thx

[warm rover]

There a summary of the plan for the matchmaking? So many messages 😅

[south timber]

How much would you pay for it?

[warm rover]

3 summoning scrolls

[south timber]

Ok

[neat peak]

This is the only thing the thronemaker has said that resembles a plan

[south timber]

So we all agree that there should be a system that rewards for the attack/defense won in the war so you get a compensation even during loss and tie, obviously a win will be higher rewards, then what sokam mentioned

[robust breach]

Summary: Everyone disagrees mostly on how to change things, no actual plan has been recognized by Odie and NF other than what they COULD do. That is all. May I have my 3 scrolls, please?

[south timber]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-animal-pet-cute-scratch-gif-15054331041420011134

[weary saffron]

I think he gave future patch notes last night

[quick lake]

[copper portal]

I do love that almost everyone in this thread is a familiar face.

Besides Odie. I never get to go to war against Odie...

[robust breach]

I heard he hacks.

[copper kite]

Then there would be another unwinnable battle debate

[copper portal]

It could be fun though!!!

[copper kite]

I bet

[pearl hill]

[copper kite]

Odie should code his character to be a 1000als

[weary saffron]

Nah I fought him in arena he has too many moves assigned

[livid token]

When do we match against the devs fr 😏

[lavish widget]

When odie becomes immune to your clocks

[livid token]

I was thinking April fools, everyone matches against a kingdom of 500AL Odies 🤔

[quick lake]

You’ve faced my alt

[copper portal]

In war? I see you occasionally in BoF, and Covyn most often.

I love fighting Covyn but sometimes I suspect he's just spamming random things to see what I do instead of trying to obliterate me 🤣

P.s. I REALLY want an Ornate Covyn Scyth

[ruby tinsel]

What if Odie's alt actually has an associated discord account that is completely anonymous living amongst us

[south timber]

Odie is hairy chinese, that would explain the nonsense growth in AL and botting with a kingdom full of his own alts all botting as summoners

[weary saffron]

What if odies alt was the player complaining about losing to high al

[south timber]

What if he's the guy constantly asking how to move

[quick lake]

Nah, no way. No way I’d ever do that. Never

No way

Trust me

[neat peak]

That seems like something you would do. 😂

[copper portal]

Honestly, it would be a good way to experience the internal environment of the various communities.

[urban timber]

I remember lots of discussion from years ago about a certain account being Odie's alter ego. 😅

[late coral]

For the record... I am not Odie's secret alt.
There's no way I'd have the patience to listen to all of you people complaining every day.
(not even when I'm the one complaining...)

[weary saffron]

Sorry to clarify I didn't mean you I meant the initial 'group of players' that were the onus for the matchmaking changes

[late coral]

I didn't mind. It was a fair statement.
Just a few days ago, I complained about giving up a 133AL advantage in War to another player when I wasn't a King.
...and yes, I did complain about it.

But, I'm an old fart and complaining is one of the few joys I have left.

[south timber]

In Italy they attend construction sites in groups just to comment on how poorly they're doing things, I recommend the hobby

[late coral]

My boss must be Italian.

[south timber]

He knows the sport

[pastel kayak]

As a contruction site in Italy, I confirm this is true

[copper kite]

https://tenor.com/view/harrypotterr-mario-italian-gif-4867143

[copper portal]

Another day, another 24 hour was eating k.orn away 😭

Would be nice if there was some mechanic to prevent this. Like, a timer following fights that restarts with every new fight. And an income that reflects faster participation vs no participation.

[sinful temple]

Oh, you guys are getting to fight? That’s cool

Tbh, I think the simpler solution is just lowering war duration to 18h. Still lets you engage regardless of time zone and speeds those wars by 25%.

Economy changes would also help, but I’d rather see them be more directed towards match results instead of time

[copper portal]

I mean, if 20 players kill their side of a war and the otherside hasn't even checked to see that they have a war, it should end after 3 hours. If they can't fight, they shouldn't start a fight.

[sinful temple]

Oh, I agree. I just don’t think there’ll ever be enough people agreeing to that, so I’m trying to propose a middle ground that would still help accelerate wars

[copper portal]

I like that if both sides are coordinated enough, a war can literally end in one hour. But 18 or 24 with no activity or like one or two from the other side attacking is a bit crazy.

[copper portal]

Maybe a 5hr inactivity timer? I don't know who needs to sleep more than 8. If they sleep through a war, so be it, but hopefully that wouldn't be the majority of any kingdom or they should start in the morning if all/most members are regional.

My side has members that don't always attack timely. I just ping them in war chat or DM if I know they are doing life stuff. Including if a war is newer and I know they will be heading to bed soon. Though, everyone should have notifications on for war, I know it can get missed or drowned out.

Now, if they miss wars that had plenty of time, I bench them and suggest leaving kingdom to come back (even if it is only for a few days) when they slow down. Take care of irl, don't hold others back. I like to have some respect for opposing kingdoms in that regard. It feels shameful to keep others waiting.

[sinful temple]

One thing I’ve noticed is that previously there would always be at least one person on each side attacking at the start of a war (presumably whoever started matchmaking). Now that wars always take a minimum of one hour to start (instead of having a chance of starting as soon as you hit matchmaking), we will often go hours before seeing anyone attack on the other side

[copper portal]

Agreed. That really needs to be fixed. We don't have notifications out of game when wars start, as well when in dungeons or BoF. If there is any notification that I wish we could receive, war and guantlets would be nice to opt into.

[sinful temple]

Spamming the war screen at xx:00 for a few minutes has just become second nature to me, but I can’t expect everyone to be doing the same. That said, you can get war start notifications when you have the app closed, but they’re usually delayed by about 5min

Still, my biggest gripe right now is, by far, not being able to fight. Current wars just don’t represent a kingdom’s actual strength. Right now we have our strongest player matched, followed by most of our low AL100 and sub 100 players. We have at least 6 eligible players that would better represent the kingdom’s actual strength, leading not only to more accurate results but also to faster wars

[copper portal]

I've never gotten any orna notifications when the game isn't open! I do the same, wasting 15 minutes every hour on the hour while match making...

[sinful temple]

Do you have that box checked in settings -> notifications?

[copper portal]

Probably missed it after all this time. I'll check it. But like you said, near useless if it pings 5 minutes late.

[sinful temple]

We’ve had wars that were mathematically over by the time that went off 😅 Still, it’s useful when you’re at work for example and can’t check at :00

[copper portal]

Agreed. I would rather face a kingdom's strongest. As stated before, no kingdom would sideline their strongest members in real war.

[copper portal]

I have it set, but still don't get out of game notifications. Maybe that's a bug report.

[sinful temple]

Maybe a system setting that’s preventing it? That’s weird

[quick lake]

If iOS, it’s default behaviour for notifications to be dropped while the app is open

[copper portal]

Sorry for always doing my criticizing feedback on Sundays. I know you guys are off, so I am trying not to ping. I just pitch comments etc as I have time. Day of week makes no difference, always busy with something.

[dry turtle]

I’m loving the new matchmaking. Sadly it’s a bit of the same kingdoms but almost every fight seems fair. The AL gap is very tight.

Finally we get to use our heads against equally powered opponents

[indigo glade]

I wonder what getting matched is like. Can I trade in my als for a prize or something? They're feeling more useless by the day

[stuck fulcrum]

War? Where? Wars still a thing?😂

[dry turtle]

Meh. Guess it makes sense. 15-20 players having difficulty getting matched. Make 2 kingdoms all 200+ and that would solve it. Get matched every day

[sinful temple]

Same, I love seeing all the most invested players in our kingdom be sidelined as a reward for grinding the game. Feels like the normal outcome for investing your time into a game

[quick lake]

as all AL100+ players are matched absolutely equally without bias, your ALs infinitely give you an advantage against other highly ascended players. suggesting the current system doesn't prioritize this is false, and these passive aggressive comments just aren't going to drive the conversation forward in a productive direction

@indigo glade i've already removed you from this thread once. please do not try to participate again

[weary saffron]

Maybe just unlucky, but my experience is that I'm still seeing low frequency of matches, but the spread is indeed wider. Not sure if its a kingdom structure issue as we have a number of 100+.

[dry turtle]

Meh. Also. “Most invested”. Each player is invested. Maybe in different ways. But AL grinding doesn’t mean “most invested” or “most deserving”. From exp less, to fishers, to the guys that run the amity groups…there’s a lot of heavily invested players. To call one group “most invested” or somehow deserving of “x” thing is…not thoughtful to say the least

Just an opinion. Not starting a thing.

[weary saffron]

I do agree with the sentiment that stronger players should be matched more frequently in their kingdom, if not by the algorithm, then by some kingdom controls.

Otherwise, we will again see 'strategic benching' this time just above 100.

[weary saffron]

Largely agree, which is why I'm not really in favor of an individual AL matchmaking. Our kingdom has had players in the high 200s that don't outperform our low 100s, and we have had players at AL 302 who are as strong as AL 999. I too have spent long nights sitting in my armchair staring at a flickering candle and contemplating Orna builds, that sort of investment cannot be factored into an algorithm.

[dry turtle]

But it’s not individual. Odie just said. He said 100+. Is that not good enough?

I’m sub 100. So idk anything about 100+. And except either sokam or fur

[weary saffron]

What I mean is individual matchups within a kingdom matchup.

TBF its likely much more unfair to a fresh Orna player in your AL range to overcome a true student of Orna PvP than it is for someone in the 150s to knock out a 300 AL player.

[sinful temple]

I understand why the system is working how it is. I simply don’t agree that this is the best system to go forward with. I think having some mechanism to allow kingdoms to prioritize their best performers (doesn’t necessarily need to be based solely on AL) is essential

[dry turtle]

Meh. I won’t say I disagree, but don’t agree either. I think it mostly depends on very specific match ups. Too specific. The fresh player catches up faster and can learn. The 150 can only catch up. But I do understand where you’re going with that

[sinful temple]

I can’t talk about players outside my kingdom. But my “most invested” comment definitely applies to us. It pains me to see players that have spent countless hours theorycrafting and testing builds be unable to engage in their favored content.

[dry turtle]

It doesn’t pain me. Cause when I was doing area, I had to sacrifice getting ALs and I’m still suffering for it.

[weary saffron]

Yeah, AL has significantly sped up in the past years, if you know the modern mechanisms. I think 100AL from level 1 in less than a year is very reasonable nowadays, but understand if thats not the content you enjoy. I still would not think a genius of hard work would be advantaged against someone who truly understands the PvP side of things.

[dry turtle]

Once you become the exception I don’t think you’re equal. Kind of thought

[dry turtle]

Yeah. I do agree with that. I think fresh players can catch up to me faster than 150 to 300. Just in the way I see the game. But I also agree fully with ALs only will not win matches. If a high AL player makes a mistake I’ll punish him regardless of ALs

[weary saffron]

Yeah, 150 to 300 is a super significant jump, in terms of investment, and there is a clear advantage there, but at that point I think most builds are able to be overcome if you have the right counter. That being said, if both players are equally prepared, fair play to the 300, I think thats deserving of the win.

[dry turtle]

I don’t like this comment, I take it back. I do feel. I did go through that in a different way. Became too big and it was really not fun. I wish something can be worked out that works well for everyone. But for everyone.

Right now sub 100 is great though.

[quick lake]

i think we're going a little further than matchmaking, tbf. we're now asking for kingdom war memory, longterm statistics, etc

yes, matchmaking would use that data, but we'd have to build out the infrastructure and collection first

[sinful temple]

I was more referring to the proposed mechanism of letting each kingdom select a certain amount of “champions” that would be prioritized when wars start (similar to what we previously had, where the system would favor the highest AL players)

[sinful temple]

This could be another potential solution as well. Assuming the AL enabled option would match as many members as possible in a war, it would increase the amount of times players get matched

[ruby tinsel]

For kingdoms with several 100+ ALs - if you are not matching often, you probably have way more 100+ ALs than other kingdoms

Dont know how else to say it

It's evident when we play other kingdoms. Only 2 of our non kings are 100+ AL, but itll match a couple extra of our sub 100+ AL players against say a 200+ AL player. But we still see some of the opponents in that kingdom not matched in those wars because they still have like 10 more 100+ AL players than those matched

[old shell]

Man this has easily the the worst update in orna for me, pre update we were top 5 in kingdoms, now we are 74, unable to go up due to exclusively matching into Hliðskjálfr, ibwipvp, and civil disobedience, ranking plays absolutely 0 role in kd matchmaking which really sucks

[quick lake]

Ranking is definitely in there. You’re being matched against those kingdoms because your kingdom composition is most similar to theirs

[old shell]

This is every single day btw, we rarely go a day without one of these 3

[old shell]

Yeah but I think Ranking should play a far bigger role, just bc we have high als doesn't mean we my kd mates know anything about pvp, which leaves us with a win percentage in the 20s

[weary saffron]

But I do think the above comments are an issue that has been highlighted, ultimately kingdom ranking is a metric is that you would expect to measure the cumulative kingdom strength but right now bends to composition issues like phantom has, that his composition matches high tier guilds or other kingdoms like ours who have 'too many' strong players so a random smattering of high players fight as opposed to our strongest.

[old shell]

If it worked based off ranking wouldn't all the good pvp kds ascend to the top and match mostly with other good pvp kingdoms?

Instead of being kicked off the top 100 simply due to our composition being similar to that of a top kd

[quick lake]

If your kingdom is stacked with high AL players that lack PvP knowledge, I feel like it may be time to work on that PvP knowledge - no? This is a really competitive PvP feature

[old shell]

They also just straight up out ascend all of our kd members except acefarmerkevo

Al50 getting matched with an al212 seems just a bit unfair

[weary saffron]

And in our case we do have that, but for every additional high AL player we add who are weaker than our 'best' these players become detrimental to our matchmaking. We're disincentivized from recruiting and retaining high tier players who are not 'the best'

Its just an inherent issue with matchmaking groups based on individuals

[old shell]

For me I see this as an incentive to just recruit low al players who know what they're doing rather than recruit any high als to avoid those kingdoms entirely

[quick lake]

Hmm…personally I just feel like skill should be the win determiner in power matched matchups.

We don’t have a skill defining metric to do the reverse

[old shell]

But clearly we are an unskilled kingdom and thus should be matched into other unskilled kingdoms, my guys are active in wars but casual about pvp, I don't see a point in our entire kd being shafted bc we aren't better than the #1 or 2 kingdom in the game

[weary saffron]

By the same token power should be the determiner in skill based matchups. So if we're solving kingdom ranking the higher power players should be queued first imo. Otherwise we would have to move to kingdom management solves, which just doesn't feel nice during Ragnarok.

But ultimately the issue phantom is experiencing seems to be the, "I should stay AL 49" problem resurfacing as "I should stay AL 99"

[wispy basin]

The system for kingdom rankings incentives HoC / ascension locking yourself.

Maybe that is a feature, not a bug of the system.

[quick lake]

FYI, thats what I was referring to with skill defining metric. Given we don’t have anything outside of AL to show skill, you can’t match based on it

[quick lake]

With the rolling brackets, AL99 doesn’t really accomplish anything, fwiw

[quick lake]

Yes and no. For low AL/low skill, it would be a good idea. Given there is looseness at the upper tiers, pushing AL is always a good idea

[wispy basin]

I can almost guarantee if the entirety CivD hoc'd and capped ourselves at 50 we would match way faster and win the majority of our wars.

[old shell]

We dont cap our als and that results in longer matchmaking and us almost entirely matching into y'all and losing lol

I get we can't beat civil disobedience, that doesn't mean we should get matched into them every day/multiple times a week

[weary saffron]

Understand that we don't have a metric, but then matching only on that works to undermine some of the one metric we can control for. I do just think its challenging overall to match what is effectively group content/rankings on an individual basis

[old shell]

Imo ranking mm > al mm, ranking proves your kd can or cannot hold its own against other high level kingdoms, als don't prove anything

You can be high al and still suck at pvp

[quick lake]

50 still have a pretty wide MM pool, so I don’t think it’d make much matchmaking time difference (in most scenarios)

You’d be dealing with quite a few 50AL vs 100+AL matches, but PvP knowledge would bridge the gap

You’re free to try it as an experiment, of course, but I’m not too confident you’ll see incredible difference

[wispy basin]

Either you are not giving us all the details we need to understand the current MM or there simply isn't enough kingdoms matchmaking then?

I know there has been a lot said in this thread, the majority in CivD are after more wars. That would be the only reason we would even contemplate such a thing.

[quick lake]

Egh, we can solve the undermining feelings in another way. Stuff like ranking based mm only works in the top 100 (as there are useable ranking gaps outside of it)

[quick lake]

What do you need more clarity on?

[wispy basin]

Can you give us any insight into how many kingdoms MM per hour?

What would enable us to match with more of those kingdoms on an hourly basis?

[fallow bear]

“Hey ChatGPT, please summarize the comments of the past week for me” 🤣

[quick lake]

A couple dozen to 100+, depending on day/time

the more similarly composed you are to anyone in the queue, the more likely you are to match with them

[little mist]

I hate having to type this in this discord, but are there any kingdom band metrics available to see where the biggest band of matchmaking is at, or possibly do a thing where, for the sake of MM diversity, people get AL shacking or heck kingdom wide, AL shackling to lower themselves to the bigger band, or just AL tunning when you are matched agaisnt a kingdom with vastly lower average AL, just something that does not negate or equalize but move kingdom down to the broader pool without telling player that they need to nerf themselves for the rest of the game content, just to be able to play in this specific content?

[weary saffron]

I get it but on this issue it seems a lot like feeling whack-a-mole

[little mist]

I would hate the solution to no match be "HoC yourself" when a kingdom could toggle an option for such automatic AL adjusting to allow them to get more matches. Build would still play a big part, even if your al is adjusted down 50 lvl, I can beat people 50 al above me just fine with my build, getting my AL down a bit in exange for more matches sounds fine

[wispy basin]

As it stands now, our assumption has been that having a relatively small group of AL100+ is preventing us from matching with anyone other than the same ~6 kingdoms.

This results in long MM times waiting for 1 of those kingdoms to queue and be matched with us.

Our daily war counter has gone down considerably lately. From 4-5 wars a day to 1-2 wars a day.

[little mist]

Kingdom rework level ideas, where there are explicit leagues, you want to be at your max AL? play in the top league where there might be less kingdom. Otherwise set your kingdom in the 0 AL, 50 al, 100 al leagues, get capted to that and enjoy the pool that it contains

[wispy basin]

Everything I have heard here suggests that lowering our ALs would result in quicker matching with a more diverse group of kingdoms.

[little mist]

I have like 5-6 HoC I would be more than happy to be part of a test

[weary saffron]

Just curious was the creation of Civil D in the first place to appease the original matchmaking switch up, or just coincidental timing?

[quick lake]

We’ve definitely explored this, and consensus here has been that AL power should not ever need be given up

[wispy basin]

We exist solely because of the first MM change preventing us from getting matched in wars...

[little mist]

Would the league idea, where it is explicitly agreed to be part of a league, just like anguish shackling is an explicit action, solve it?

[little mist]

Yeah, back then, we had constant wars, which was great for kingdom orns, but I could go for days without a fight

[robust breach]

Yup, we literally spun off because we were being sidelined. We had a good run for about a month or 2, getting as many as a dozen wars a day in. Then we ratcheted down to 4 or 5, now we're at 1 or 2. We're back to square 1.

[old shell]

Wow that's almost exactly what happened to my kd, 420

[strange lintel]

Deity nerf when?

[quick lake]

Once we split the 1 mm pool into 2 or more, matchmaking times increase for all of them, due to the smaller candidate size

[old shell]

Wrong thread?

[quick lake]

I feel like trying to optimize your kingdom composition for more wars in a day will just make your kingdom less and less similar to other kingdoms, thus limiting matchups over time

The best thing to do is just be normal imo

(Especially if optimized for the previous bracket based mm version)

[little mist]

but if everyone in the league are matchmaker no matter the difference solely based on rank in said league having a preference, for example, haivng 20 kingdom in the 51-100 AL bracket, you would not look for "oh that one is 53 average vs 99" it would be assumed everyone in that league bracket agree that they wil be matchmaked with people in that range otherwise they could just go to the 0-49 bracket have their al caped and get matches there?

the MM job would be to try to match people only based on kingdom rank maybe, or not at all, no attempt at balancing, as the bracket would do the balancing by implicite or explicite AL caps

Maybe give a KOrn bonus when you win in higher brackets, to incentivize kingdom to not just play on the lowest brackets

and reduce war timer to 3 hours instead of 24h

[quick lake]

I think this whole system would need to be opted into, as the high AL folks here have expressed that they should not have to ever compromise power

This opt-in splits the pool. If most kingdoms do opt-in, the opted out are left in the dust with too few matchups

[little mist]

I am all for seal clubing getting their fun, but the current system does not let seal clubber get matchmaking anyway, so the point is simply to give high AL kingdom, the option to nerf themselves if they so desire. If they don't want to not be uncompromisingly powerfull, then so be it, they would get their wars as the MM intend

Ruxx is cooking us an entire book

[wispy basin]

I was, then I gave up. I'm not going to try to describe what I think makes sense for orna. Lots of different opinions and conflicting views from people.

There is a lot of good research out there on different MMR systems, pros and cons of each, weighting rewards based on MMR, etc.

[sinful temple]

Why are the high ALs the ones that need to compromise? Every change accomplished by this thread has already made kingdom wars less enjoyable to those players

[little mist]

Gatcha games have it soo easy, they don't care about balance, they just let "whales" and "people who try-hard" steamroll players so they enjoy themselves and spend more money in the game.

[little mist]

I agree, but unless there is a desire to go back to the old MM that allowed every type of matchup, this does not seem to be possible with the current direction.

Personnaly I would just go back to the old MM where it felt like your kingdom rank meant something because you were fighting everyone

[sinful temple]

Again, I don’t see why wars need to be created with only “super fair” matchups. Those don’t actually translate a kingdom’s actual strength. Sure, It Burns is getting a lot more wars than Civil right now, but that’s only because our AL50s are getting matched 90% of the time while the others almost don’t get matched

[little mist]

but if that is not possible with the intent behind what NF is trying to do, I would rather have matches

[sinful temple]

I think this suggestion by Odie would address that for example #1458462120902394091 message

[weary saffron]

I still think we should try original matchmaking but with better loss/tie rewards

[little mist]

yeah that sounds similar to what I was saying but on the individual instead of kingdom wide?

that idea, basicly still goes back to "you want matches, you are getting your AL nerfed" but this one, unless I misread, drops your AL to 0 like BoF

[wispy basin]

Bonus points for wars that end quickly, to both winners and losers and I am sold.

[little mist]

if you still get something out of ties or lost, at least losing kingdom would not stall for a whole day

[quick lake]

Original mm was a headache for us that costed us hundreds to thousands of players. Increased rewards just won’t fix that

[weary saffron]

I wouldn't mind this but would just say that getting in another war is an economic bonus of its own

[little mist]

and to be clear, while I have my personnal preference, I still understand you have a vision, and that means figuring out a solution within that vision

[weary saffron]

Does our data suggest that the 'feels bad' of bad matchups was separate from the 'feels bad' of no money?

[quick lake]

money, as in, korns?

[little mist]

considering how i've seen kingdom convos before where they were "fuck theses guys we are stalling them" I think the feel bad from getting steamrolled without any ounce of a chance was big

[weary saffron]

Yeah, i would think the underlying issue is them not getting korns rather than a tough fight (in most cases)

[quick lake]

the “feels bad” is “matchups are rigged/unfair” -> uninstall

Less players means less wars. Less wars means less korns

Driving players away is just bad for everyone

[little mist]

I think High AL kingdom focus on the economics more than the low AL "casual community" that feels the moral loss of constant losses

I imagine the options for PVE only kingdom has massively shrunk the pool?

[weary saffron]

I understand that but are we sure its not matchups are unfair - I can't afford to raid - uninstall?

To astra's point I don't see why someone would stall if wins in an overall loss gave them Korns

[little mist]

Again, I think casual low AL players don't really care about the Korn

[quick lake]

100% certain

[little mist]

they focus on FUN, winning, feeling like they are achieving something as a group

if they can stall a kingdom they will lose to, it's "fun" for them to at least get that victory from the "bad guys"

that's the mindset i've seen

[quick lake]

or on the less malicious end, why bother doing the match if you know it’s just going to be getting curb stomped - why rush to a bad experience?

[little mist]

I've played WoW classic on an RP/PVP server, preventing people from having a full win fast was our fun when it was clear we could not win

[quick lake]

for sure, SC2 needed a match timer due to Terran liftoff turtling

Just gamer things

[little mist]

Anyway, love the new PVE content, good luck with the PVP content, this is as far as I want to interact with that community, I tend to get sick from hanging out here too long

[strange lintel]

How about uh ... kingdom war rules and universally disabled ALs?

Similar to bof. In bof more or less everyone is equal

[quick lake]

everyone is uniquely passionate out of love for the game. it’s tough at times, for sure, but everyone’s voice matters and I want you all to speak up

[strange lintel]

I mean people dont complain about disabled ALs on bof

[old shell]

Next event crimson festival?👀

Just noticed the name change

[sinful temple]

On the flip side, the current system feels bad for those higher on the AL spectrum, and I’m genuinely afraid that it will lead to players leaving the game due to frustration with it

[little mist]

Honestly I made a few people drool at some wild outlandish ideas, like a world where kingdom wars are actual wars, with our full conquest guild NPC fighting their own match with their pure build loadout, and then you, as the "commander" having your own match to add extra "wins" to shift the tide. instead of a 12 vs 12, it would suddently be a 60 vs 60 where 12 are human played matches. But that just tossing wild idea for shits, and I would never dare open that can of worm as an actual suggestion here

[quick lake]

I think that sentiment is why this thread was made, no?

[sinful temple]

Fully agree. I’m just hoping we could get some info into what is being considered for potential changes, to help assuage those feelings

[quick lake]

I’m deep into April stuff, so don’t really have a proposal atm

but the fact that I’m here chatting should show it’s top of mind

I do think we need to start with a poll/survey

If more endgame players are okay with looser matchmaking, then we can loosen it up and give high AL more opportunity

If the current solution isn’t getting majority buy-in, then we can explore MMR type stuff

[old shell]

Yessssss

[quick lake]

I do know there’s a silent majority though. This iteration is giving the fairest matchups of all time - a lot of players feel like they’ve got a shot right now

So MMR stuff might not be in the books

[little mist]

I agree with that, matches have been the most fair I have seen, but not having any wars, is for some, not having a game to play. I am not them so I can't fully represent them, but you got plenty of guilds that their own composition and mission statement (like the piss guild) is around kingdom wars. So I understand their frustration that the game is not letting them play.

I honestly don't see a world where you can please everyone without a group of the player base is either putting water in their wine or getting what they want taken away from them.

[old shell]

Hasn't been very fair for me smh

[little mist]

where do you stand in the spectrum? people stronger than you, or weaker than you? Consistantly?
I have been getting people above my AL a lot, but in a world of "who gets to oneshot who first" it barely matters

[old shell]

I'm rank 75 and consistently get top 5 kd matches, losing almost every war resulting in a ~20% winrate

[little mist]

oh I tought you meant individual AL difference. because I think this is what Odie meant as "fair" matches

before all theses changes, you would have a lvl 245 player matching with an al 90 player

[old shell]

I mean, 50-212 als isn't exactly my definition of fair

[sinful temple]

I don’t think sub 250 players could match with 250 players with ALs?

[pastel kayak]

You are welcome to join Jotunheim, I'll make you guys a PvP build

[little mist]

Back when I was not 250 they could, don't know when the change was made for that

[old shell]

They cant

At least not anymore

[little mist]

not in a while they havent, just not sure if it was patch of the recent changes or last 2 years

[pastel kayak]

I'm pretty sure sub 250 can match 250 as long as they have same or similar ALs

Just checked, they can yeah

[old shell]

I think the same player in my kd got matched with an al290 at some point

Recently my 119 als matched with 301 als

[pastel kayak]

Do you have everyone above 100 and only him below?

[sinful temple]

100+ is all the same “pool” right now

[old shell]

Nope

[old shell]

I got cooked by geppu cuz I missed with all 46% of my accuracy🥲

[old shell]

We have 1 sub 50 al, 2 between 50 and 100, and 5 100+

[weary saffron]

301 is noob AL

[old shell]

Yeah... 302 is so much cooler

[spring cloak]

With raid turnover being the overwhelming component of rank, and nothing there for endgame players outside of Arisen Morrigan, it meant my kingdom just stomped lowbies 11 months out of the year. It was nice amassing a stockpile of >10m korns but we still have nothing to spend it on make kraiding relevant again

[weary saffron]

It actually didn't occur to me that it was me on first read

[old shell]

😂

[pastel kayak]

More like take Raids out of the ranking equation

[old shell]

My kd is just super casual in terms of pvp so they just suck but they're high al and don't feel like fixing anything

I love getting smoked by Hliðskjálfr and civil D every day😂

[weary saffron]

Given that it is not an economy issue I think the solution that would be most palatable to me would be allowing prioritizing of players within that top bracket.

[pastel kayak]

Well, if you all don't feel like fixing anything then you shouldn't care about anything Wars-related
If they don't care but you do, join another Kingdom

[weary saffron]

I know one

[sinful temple]

I know a great one that will take you

[pastel kayak]

Me too

[old shell]

That's what I'm planning on doing in april

[lost grotto]

Yeah, only thing you can do is try to fix what you can control, in this case your build and so

[little mist]

Kingdom fighting to recruit new member, the real Kingdom wars

[jade nexus]

Thats actually not awful if I understand it correctly. If there were other creative options to grind korns , maybe the kingdoms that arent in it for the PVP don't PVP and those that do care match with other competitive kingdoms for the fun of it all. I believe that would solve both the lopsided matches being stalled to get back at the big guys AND allow more freedom for the matching algorithm as PVPers see the fun in the chalenge..just my two cents.

[sinful temple]

Worst thing is the members doing that will actually get less matches because of that 😂

[old shell]

I think ibwipvp has a couple of players who occasionally pvp from time to time:)

[little mist]

Kingdom Rework when, still waiting for kingdom content to feel like multiplayer content as oposed to group single player content

[spring cloak]

||you should probably do it sooner to not be locked out of pitying the fool||

[jade nexus]

Full disclosure , Ravenwood had a pretty great record up until recently, we've clearly crossed some kind of invisible threshold that is now matching us with much stronger kingdoms and we are getting ridden hard and put away wet , we see it as a benefit because we have something to work towards. Our trajectory feels natural.

[old shell]

I'm doing it after ragnarok bc I still need to grind the raids for a fsc, and as I understand I can't just hop in ibwipvp and start murdering shit in the first week lol

I also don't really care for the fool tbh

[jade nexus]

Only bad thing is kingdoms sitting on wars for 24 hours. Even ones they could have won had they even bothered. We really need to fix that somehow. Honestly, if there is anything that makes me want to go passive, its that

[old shell]

Lamp had a great idea several months ago of a hex/blessing that reduces war time

Made to benefit active kingdoms

[jade nexus]

Id welcome literally anything . You can tell when its a timezone issue and when its intentional. We have to weed out the intentional stalling somehow.

[little mist]

I would prefer a constant change as oposed to an expense that you have to figure every time if you need to use

"after 3 hours, your match is played by an AI untill you log in to replace your loss with an attempt at a win"

[pastel kayak]

Jotunheim doesn't have a kOrns wallet 🤭

[jade nexus]

Giving someone else control of your kingdom finances is just bad for the game. It demoralizes active players. We've already seen an alarming amount of players burning out and going dark lately due to the non stop event schedule and lack of Ornate drops in event raids since Wild Hunts but thats a whole other problem all together. Being able to sustain kraids for your kingdom efficiently without forcing folks into wars should be at the top of the list. I think the other stuff will work itself out, truly.

[jade nexus]

Kinda love that, tho im generally against AI fighting all together. Its my least favorite thing about settlement pvp and wars. Not being able to defend yourself with the knowledge you've gained seems silly, it always has. But if it keeps wars moving , sure !

20 to 30k korns a day (when you win) isnt sustainable for an active kingdom. I hate having to make up a prohibitive kraid allowance when my kingdom is always the first done with their fights. They deserve better.

[quick lake]

Is that KvK?

[quick lake]

If both sides have ALs, they can match without being 250

[old shell]

Kvk?

[jade nexus]

King vs king

[old shell]

Nope

[sinful temple]

Ah, I was mixing it up with 0 AL vs AL then

[quick lake]

Screenshot?

[old shell]

I didn't get a ss I don't think, but it was against enserric-

In Hliðskjálfr

[quick lake]

I just don’t see how a 50 v 212 could be possible outside of KvK

[old shell]

Actually I'll look for it, I might have it

I'll have to go fishing for it

[quick lake]

Cast that line with the juiciest of bait

[pastel kayak]

Hlid is most likely gonna have it if you don't

[old shell]

Doesn't look like I can find it, I do remember Simo The Tekbeard vs Enserric- tho lol

[quick lake]

Is that username current?

Nm, they have spaces

[old shell]

Fixed it

[old shell]

I mean, when we fight Hliðskjálfr (every few days) his match is just about guaranteed to be unfair, with a typical 120 al difference lol, this one was just a particularly bad example

[jade nexus]

If im being honest ,with the fact that we're being beaten like an old rug these days fresh in mind. War isnt fair. Sometimes you are victorious out there and sometimes you dont go home to your bed because war was never designed to be fair, its often brutal. This is the fact for thousands of years. Two powers dont meet up and work out so strength is evenly matched and applied. The only feasible answer is creating more ways to make money so young or pvp averse kingdoms dont have to be put through the ringer for simply wanting to function as a kingdom. When I get matched against an AL 300, I say "well shit" and then take my medicine if my strategy doesnt pay off. OK, im done soap boxing for now.

[quick lake]

At 55 AL, up to 110 AL should be matched, but then loosened if the kingdoms are similarly ranked

Something like 50 AL vs 215 AL without close rank should not be possible, so please flag to me if you see it happen

[south timber]

As a side note I don't think that matchups with closer ALs bring much to the table in terms of strategy or thinking or whatever has been said. I mean we still just oneshot each other even with a 30al difference(not mentioning blood ray). I'd love to see a video recording of the above mentioned better fights with more strategies involved lol

[old shell]

Ok

[south timber]

Anyway besides the higher AL not being matched I still feel that something that would help keeping up with the kingdoms economy could alleviate the problem when looking at the matchmaking situation

Some sort of "placebo"

[lost grotto]

These ones are ok?

[quick lake]

While they are favoured when available to promote skill when applicable, they’re not required

[sinful temple]

I’m pretty sure those wars are mostly decided by who gets the most parapet+second chance+pet protect procs

[quick lake]

Similar rank is my bet

[lost grotto]

I see

[old shell]

What kd you in?

[south timber]

I see avidity is not even mentioned cause we know it doesn't proc when you need it

[sinful temple]

People play RS?

[lost grotto]

ABS vs It Burns, so it makes sense

[sinful temple]

Jk, I think RS is actually in a good spot PvP wise right now

[old shell]

Ye I just checked

[old shell]

How so?

[south timber]

Attacking gets the job done for sure, defending it's just a noodle in a rainstorm except for good amities backing it up

[old shell]

Maybe offensively but defensively it's worse than everything except gs

[sinful temple]

The removal of FMC from SS means they can actually use the dorado passive effectively

[sinful temple]

That’s the case for most classes to be fair

[old shell]

"Realmstrikes has entered the chat"

[sinful temple]

That’s what they deserve if they’re running 0 defense

[south timber]

I've a fake bof build to bait it when against some classes

[old shell]

Have you seen rs dmg without bof, shit's so sad

[south timber]

12k Def 11k atk

[sinful temple]

I’d much rather have to attack anything not called deity than a RS

[south timber]

Redline me and die

[old shell]

Either way ranger spec just use ranger spec and maybe even a cupid locket or 2 and you're nearly guaranteed to hit a rsd regardless of dex

[old shell]

That's literally like 98% of rsds😂

Shit is such a free win

[sinful temple]

With the amount of gear with +dodge added recently, that’s not the case anymore. At least against people like Ashketa who know what they’re doing

[sinful temple]

98% of players are a free win, regardless of class

[old shell]

@south timber wanna pvp rq? Now I'm curious lol

Lemme throw my stuff together

Rdy when you are

Imma go with my medium accuracy build first

Hmm.. perhaps it would help to ACTUALLY equip my ss build😂

I was running my max dmg chakram cuz I forgot to swap

It works if you don't get extra turns😂

What's the dex between builds? I'm still on medium accuracy with no cupid lockets

Yea...

[livid token]

These long matchmaking times 😭

Took us a good few hours to find a kingdom today

Every once in a while feels normal but most have been this way

[south timber]

What's the kingdom composition in terms of levels?

[old shell]

My kd is still matchmaking since we fought yall... fun

[livid token]

A couple low tiers to 200+ ALs

17 ranked today

[south timber]

So there should be at least 8 players capable of fitting in the range for a mm

[livid token]

We match others here often, its not a composition issue

[south timber]

I mean we've got these dudes now. We're 32 ranging from 10 to 150 but average sitting around 40-60

[livid token]

This isnt the first mention, just bringing up the no difference since last time

[south timber]

So I'm getting kinda clueless on the mechanics of the matchmaking pairing

[livid token]

This exactly

Im at a loss as to what it favors now and it just feels unnecessarily slow

[south timber]

We're going to deal with a 7 man war that will likely last 15hours and if we win would lead to 14k orns

Profit

[south timber]

Without any reference it's even difficult coming up with better ideas or improvement to streamline it without starting from scratches

[livid token]

There are a few kingdoms that keep starting wars just to lock us into 24 hrs, and matchmaking should stop putting us against them back to back loool

[south timber]

We had one of them twice in a row recently

[old shell]

That used to be my kd vs miino

[south timber]

It was a win and only the king of their kingdom was missing, he waited last 10 min to make it a tie

Then matched them again

Amos del calabozo

[livid token]

We got kingdom of mikes 4 times in a row last week

[old shell]

Oh, back when 420 was first established we constantly matched into happy is 2025 and we got 24 hour locked so many fucking times

[sinful temple]

The more I think about it, the more I think we’ve gotten ourselves up against a wall. We keep saying that suggestions that split the player pool would lead to slower matchmaking, but the current system is already preventing kingdoms from matching based on kingdom composition. Is this not basically us splitting the matchmaking pool in several small pockets?

[livid token]

There is certainly matchmaking pools at the moment, and its unavoidable if the intent is balance tbh

Im on the side of taking down the walls of matchmaking pairing, but as king my opinion only speaks for everyone else

So im naturally opinion biased

[south timber]

So far I think that splitting it into 2 options of "I want Al's and anyone" and "no ALs" with a single player toggle is the idea could likely get us back to something closer to the old version of the mm

Personally I'd explore the 0 Als every now and then too just to play with other classes in wars

[sinful temple]

Agreed. I think making it a preference and not a straight “red line” would help alleviate the division as well, ensuring there’s always someone available to match with you

[south timber]

Using sess as a reference of 32 players I'd say maybe 10 would opt into the no ALs, still providing a proper pool for other kingdoms to be matched against us, while the other 20 could be open to many other more competitive kingdoms

If you're a kingdom of 8 people you just have to agree with a solution for everyone cause you'll definitely hurt yourself with the mm otherwise

Common sense should kick in after 48 hours of mm if they don't understand it by themselves

[neat peak]

There needs to be a balance. Right now, high-AL players are just sitting out of wars. That’s why having both an AL-on and AL-off option could actually work. Two bins would get us pretty close to the original system, just in a way that’s more fair for everyone. We’d just need to test it. Not everyone is going to stay in one system, but if they do and you’re not getting matches, switch to the other bin and bam — matches every hour for everyone.

What Odie said earlier is right. The AL gap has gotten out of hand, and it’s hurting growth. I’ve seen players quit or stop caring because they’re stuck facing people 150–300 ALs above them. High-AL players may enjoy that, but low-AL players don’t. These recent wars have been the fairest fights we’ve ever had. People enjoy games when the fights feel fair. Getting stomped by someone way above you just isn’t fun after it happens over and over.

[little mist]

The game lives or die by it's ability to get more new players than it is losing to attrition over time.

[lavish widget]

Idk i was having the fight of the day 😂 😂

[pastel kayak]

I really doubt Rs is worse at defense than Hera
Rs is actually the class that can randomly win the most defenses it's not supposed to just through dodge and Avidity

[stark frost]

Hi, just wanted to add me in this opinion
And also, it's a bit frustrating, I just did a heart of change to deity more or less a week ago, since then i've never been matched since being in a new class.

[ruby tinsel]

Rs isnt great. Dorado is definitely worse than second chance. At least hera can second chance a few times. Youre right about the random wins but I just left the RS world since it was so bad

[quick lake]

Rd is holds the #2 spot for kingdom war defense while Rs holds the bottom spot

[ruby tinsel]

Id be curious to hear the stats for ALs. The dex advantage for dorado drops significantly in my experience the higher you go

Single handedly why i left the class

Often get matched with 100+ AL where everyone has higher dex

[urban timber]

"Just stack more Dex"

[ruby tinsel]

"gilga has no dex options"

[urban timber]

In all seriousness, I would say Base Gilga's dex options are pretty limited. I'd still like to see more mid range options

Ursa on the other hand with the thief gear addition, pretty set.

[ruby tinsel]

My ursa at 50 AL has plenty of dex to deal with what my dorado was at 75 AL in max dex

[urban timber]

I agree, Ursa is in a great spot really.

[pastel kayak]

So #1 DUrsa, #2 Rs Dorado
Slowly putting the puzzle together

You said Dorado and BeoH are close in the past so I guess #3 is BeoH then

Weird GHerc isn't in the top 3

[weary saffron]

I think gilga has great options for dex that being said even with a fairly high dex build I can miss frequently against a lower AL dorado who stacks dex. I had to develop a 6 mnemosyne hammer for that exact purpose. What I do think is also underrated about dorado is their ability to hit you when you are outdexing them.

[south timber]

From a PvP point of view we all know that Dorado wins Def until Al 40 cause at that range there's not many people that know how to deal with it, then you start noticing awareness about it and it easier to counter, still not everyone may have the necessary tools for a proper counter that grants better odds so it's still relevant until al 60-70 maybe. Then it's all about reinventing the class

[ruby tinsel]

This is exactly my experience 👍

[pastel kayak]

I'd be happy for Dorado or Rs in general to receive some other buff if Avidity was limited to 1 proc in a row in PvP

[ruby tinsel]

Gilga out here getting 100% chance to hit twice and Realm only 30% chance to go off

I digress - wrong discussion thread 😅

[pastel kayak]

CD should also be nerfed, probably even harder than Avidity

[south timber]

I'm not going to lose avidity when I'm getting 8 parapets in a row

[pastel kayak]

Second chance and parapet should both be limited to 1 per fight

And I don't want you to lose Avidity, just to not proc it more than once in a row

I'll lose my second chance on BeoH for all these changes

[neat peak]

CD able to happen 100% of the time and finish off sc every time I bet gilga is up there in win rate also

[pastel kayak]

I expected GHerc to be #1, definitely the most broken class in PvP atm which is why I'm surprised it's not even top 3

I guess Gilga players need to step up

[neat peak]

The high als know why they never leave

S2 just hoc to gilga and the stuff he's doing at 50als is gross

[weary saffron]

I think gilga is very strong, and I'd bet just under those listed by Odie, but I think for lower AL gilga what I find is that they often have trouble juggling the various stats as how you build is very dependent on your AL and you become more flexible as your ward increases. This could cause a lower wr at low end, but I think for those who build properly its the best offense class.

Also a lot of gilga get 'baited' into stacking more ward than they really need

[lost grotto]

I saw an <AL50 G.Ursa hitting for 180k+200k little ago, while having close to 90k hp and 300k ward. Against a swash player, but crazy still

[robust breach]

The "ward is life" ethos is pretty old methodology at this point.

[weary saffron]

Agreed, there's a lot of hype around Eastern mask but I see myself using it about as much as I use fsc nowadays, which is really not at all.

[weary saffron]

Also think gilga is pretty binary based on matchups, the build I use to defend against RS/heretic will absolutely not break a deity and the build I use to beat deity will get absolutely shredded by the above. I think its a good interaction but if you're not online to actually react can hurt your win rate. AL lets you ride the line a bit more but still

[pastel kayak]

Puzzle?

[lost grotto]

Yeah

[neat peak]

okay back on task. Thoughts about two bins one where the kingdom picks ALs all on and one kingdom picks ALs all off. This will make sure our higher ALs always get matched as long as the other kingdom has the players to support it.

[sinful temple]

All for it. Either this or Odie’s suggestion of making it a preference, in case we feel that’s needed to alleviate how long it takes to matchmake.

Anything that let’s me be in more than 15% of wars really

[snow garden]

back on task. fight me in war

[sinful temple]

I’d still like to see any sort of “champions” mechanic implemented. Let kingdoms choose which players they want to see matched more often. Kingdoms know better than any algorithm who their most capable players are

[neat peak]

With the als on bin I'm all for that. Match the highest als first. But there need to be the bin to have als off so that doesn't hamper game growth.

[neat peak]

I'm scared.

[old shell]

Don't be lol, heretics not that bad

[neat peak]

Wait I beat you on def you need more als

[snow garden]

lol it'll come down to RNG for this one.

I totally underestimated you defense stat when I attacked. so I bumped to full magic.

you'll probably get the pet blocks

An effective Hcorvus Bloodray AI defense WHEN

would be nice if heretic defense AI used their unique abilities effectively. realm, beo, gigla, diety get to have all the fun. :whine:

[old shell]

Have you tried hocing to beo?

🙂

[old shell]

Then idk what to tell ya

Not playing to coolest class in the game😎

[snow garden]

the coolness in this game is so unbalanced

[olive jacinth]

Little babies can't go day without abusing 1 spell, calling themself op 🥺

[old shell]

Ok Mr grand summoner player

[olive jacinth]

Im giga buggane user, that's better than any thing yall got.

[old shell]

That might've been true if I was a rs main😜

[lavish widget]

Yeah this fella switches mains like the seasons

[quick lake]

just to close the loop, i looked into your kingdom. it appears to just be 8 players, all AL100+

the current system prioritizes bigger wars, per the feedback here. a roster of 8 hard to match players will often result in pretty small wars, so the algorithm would rarely consider it.

recruiting more players, of any AL level (or no AL) will help you match

[wispy basin]

I'm sure we will consider that. We all had to make drastic changes to get matches after the first MM change.

There is likely to be some hesitancy to make more drastic changes when the future seems unclear.

[quick lake]

any variation of matchmaking is going to ensure that the most amount of kingdoms get matched, so the more common compositions and sizes will be targeted. creating distance from the norm will only hurt your ability to get matches

[weary saffron]

Quick everyone back to abs

[robust breach]

When the first round of MM changes took effect, everyone in CD found themselves sitting out for days at a time. At that time, we were part of a more "common" composition Kingdom, we elected to make a drastic change to find matches again. It worked, until it didn't. To Ruxx's point, being part of the "norm" is what hurt in the first place, now we're being encouraged to go back to that. Will we do that only to find that another future change puts us on the sidelines again?

[quick lake]

consider the rewards angle to small wars as well - they are less lucrative for both you and the opponent

[robust breach]

When we were churning through 10 or 12 wars in a day, the rewards angle certainly seemed to work in our favor.

[quick lake]

feedback for the previous version was substantially worse than this version, so i can't see any drastic changes being needed

[robust breach]

Ok, you first.

[wispy basin]

420, helheimr -- Odie says we have to merge.

[robust breach]

Aww, that one little "X" was too funny.

[old shell]

Hmmm what does odie have against gaheite?

[quick lake]

there's some toxicity above that has led me to ask them not to engage with this thread any further

[sinful temple]

By previous version, are you referring to the original mm, or to the one we had a few weeks ago?

[quick lake]

Few weeks ago

[sinful temple]

Is that just based on the feedback in this thread? Because I’m not sure the disapproval was substantially different from the current one’s. It’s simply coming from a different type of player

[quick lake]

Wars were smaller, matchmaking time was longer, the whole AL49 thing - the problems were a bit more widespread

[warm rover]

😢

[old shell]

Rip civil D

[sinful temple]

And the dynamic brackets fixed most of those issues. Now that we're letting ALs 100+ be a free-for-all matching wise, is there still a reason we can't go back to prioritizing matching each kingdom's highest AL players? That shouldn't interfere with the aforementioned issues

[ruby tinsel]

How many 100+ ALs does it burns have

Compare that to all the other kingdoms out there and youll always have guys on the bench. The lower 100+ ALs in your kingdom will never get matched with this idea in mind. That might be ok with your kingdom but other kingdoms might not want this

[ruby tinsel]

Odie nailed it here commonality gets more matching

[ruby tinsel]

Which is also why, when we match you guys, one of us below 100 ALs is typically fighting one of your 100+ ALs to get a bigger match for you guys

[sinful temple]

I believe a good amount of the people that have stated they're displeased with this system are in kingdoms with a reasonable amount of AL100s. I doubt those people want to continue having wars ending in losses/ties because their top performers are constantly sidelined.

Anyone in the low AL100s in our kingdom would gladly swap places with Geppu to let him better represent the kingdom for example.

This would also have no impact in matchmaking times, it would just prioritize these players when matching the AL100+ group it's already matching

[old shell]

You should see my kd lol, Hliðskjálfr matches are so broken, kevo (200) gets matched with cher_ (254) and then the rest of the matches are 100 al difference lmao

[old shell]

We don't even have 8 al 100 players, which leaves simo in an al120+ deficit everytime

[quick lake]

A change went out today that should prioritize the higher AL when multiple high AL matchups are possible. It won’t interfere with the rest of the current matchmaking landscape, which is great

[ruby tinsel]

I expect to hear soon from those with deep 100+ AL rosters that are in the lower end of the range (which probably isnt too many)

[old shell]

Are there patch notes for this change?

[quick lake]

There could be, it’s just an smaller algorithmic thing

Let’s give it a couple days to see how it pans out

[jade nexus]

This is probably the best down the middle match we've had. .im hopeful this new change makes everyone happy. We think its great so far. Now if we can only shorten war times for kingdoms that dont show up to fight and weve got a winner.

[quick lake]

That looks like a great war

[sinful temple]

First war in a couple hours, our 6 strongest members got matched. Promising

[jade nexus]

Thank you for all the effort. We can be a grouchy and needy bunch sometimes but its definitely because we feel deeply for this game you created.

[old shell]

Who are your 6 strongest? Al wise

[sinful temple]

Join us and find out

[old shell]

Patience... my guy

[copper kite]

Now we will finally have some competition

[weary saffron]

B R A V O D I E

[urban timber]

I love to see changes that encourage recruiting new players so that we don't end up with kingdoms that are all T10-T11 strictly for efficiencies sake. Now if we could just remove the reward penalty for lower tiers on gauntlets. Their time is just as valuable as a T10's and the fights aren't any easier for them at tier.

[old shell]

I mean, the main reason I target high t10 and t11 recruits is for activity reasons, a 240+ is generally going to be more reliable in war than a t7 when it comes to taking their turn

[urban timber]

Sounds prejudicial. But if they aren't meeting kingdom activity goals, no one is saying you can't remove them. Also, no one is saying you can't keep your kingdom T10 and T11 if that is your choice. I just want to see the barriers removed which actually make it a hindrance to diversify kingdom levels.

[pearl hill]

as apart of the kingdom reworks coming this year (TM) I want a war map as apart of kingdom war rework.

[pastel kayak]

What's a war map?

[pearl hill]

Instead of a line up of 1v1 matches in kingdom menu you have a tactical war map where we can place defenders/attackers

[old shell]

That would be so cool lol

[pastel kayak]

Yeah I can see that coming on Orna 2 in 2040

[pearl hill]

Been playing for 5 years it’s only a matter of time.

[warm rover]

I understand the part where enemy doesnt act 😂

[lavish widget]

Classic, ya love to see it 😬

[copper kite]

Kingdom war chat that sends a notification would fix it

[late coral]

Ok... no whining or complaining. Just a simple question.
How would you approach such a mismatch?

He's in Heretic Corvus, so one might think that I could min-max on Resistance to counter his magic, but this build usually uses Bloodray, so I will get exactly one turn before I get hit with unstoppable damage of probably around 700K.

This channel likes to remind me that I should be able to "learn" from this sort of circumstance.
Any suggestions on the best way to approach this match?
How would you proceed? What gives me any ghost of a chance of winning?

Roll the dice on stun, sleep, blind, or freeze?
Try my own Bloodray build out?

Is there anything that I can do to overcome my opponent's 156% stat advantage?
His Dexterity, Magic, and every other stat (if I understand the math) is 1.84 times my own, if we were geared the same. (341 divided by 185).
On dexterity alone, I have at least a 40% chance of missing him entirely with any conventional attack.
My attack and magic will be countered by his boosted defense and resistance.

I repectfully call on the expertise of the players in this channel who insist I can learn from this.
Please suggest an approach that isn't a total futile gesture on my part and a free win for them.

[old shell]

At least he is extraordinarily weak for a whopping 241 als @late coral

Just go in and hit him

At least he felt weak against my al116 beoH

Ranger spec ss works

[lost grotto]

I'd use Bloodray, since Corvus has no SC and the only thing that could save them is a parapet proc

[old shell]

No blood ray in sight lol

[late coral]

Is there a way to challenge him outside of war?

[old shell]

No, I've matched in in wars and coliseums tho and never lost

Doesn't even Start with ward haha

[late coral]

I wouldn't have believed it. Why would someone have such a strong build and have it set up like that?
Your advice worked brilliantly. Two shots and I won the match. Thank You!!

[old shell]

And low hp

[old shell]

Np

[late coral]

So... do you keep a list of your fights and experiences with notes on all the significant challengers?

[lavish widget]

Ai isn't likely to use bloodray anyway, not a reliable def move imo

[lost grotto]

Yeah, against most Heretics you'd actually want to max your def, since at least on my experience they tend to run magic scythe or chakram

But yeah, against a Corvus it should be cake, unless they have parapet

[pastel kayak]

All our AL200+ players have been matched in every War since the last change and a very large percentage of the Kingdom is getting matched every War
The current iteration looks very good

[sinful temple]

Agreed. We’re getting the strongest players consistently matched and wars have also, on average, been much larger. No ideia what else was changed but the current iteration is miles better than what we had before.

I still hope some solution to accommodate kingdoms like Hlid and Civil can be made though, since those seem to still be struggling matchmaking wise

[pastel kayak]

Are we finally getting there? 🥹

[weary saffron]

Thank you all with your tireless support I have finally been freed #freegeppu

[late coral]

https://tenor.com/view/kurama-naruto-uzumaki-furry-gif-26144310

[snow garden]

I talk to this player every once in awhile. They don't play the pvp game to any high degree. Always in Seeker spec to grind those dungeons.

Bloodray bop does the trick.

[old shell]

No lol, just remember seeing that guy and him being exceptionally weak for his al

[robust breach]

Best way to do this is to have a PvP Opponents channel on your Kingdom's Discord, most of the more serious (about PvP) Kingdoms do this. Best part is how quickly it gets filled out when all of your Kingdom members are contributing. Screenshots of in battle stats screens, amities used, and battle logs are all helpful to keep on hand.

[old shell]

I mean, I'm always in monumental when grinding dungeons and I still bop everyone lol

[snow garden]

ok

[copper portal]

We do. Build out a whole Google doc that every member has access to. As they fight opponents that are strong or that could be a problem, keep those players updated along with the kingdom they are in.

[copper portal]

I like that idea as well, maybe more. The Google doc is great, but information gets overwritten and just straight screenshots with player name could show better stats over time.

[robust breach]

Yeah, it’s been working great for us and other kingdoms I’ve seen do it. Just have members type the name of their opponent and post the shots, makes it real easy to search on Discord.

[copper portal]

And, would probably be easier to understand than looking at a doc for most players. Simple is typically the best path.

[grim panther]

i'm gonna put gdpr to my loadout