Let's talk about GS Anguished Endless.

[thick wolf]

I wanna do the endless cheese now too xD
I have 5 HoC banked in Conq

[true bronze]

It also depends on what exactly you want, you could make argument gazers are best since they can go crazy depths

[jaunty estuary]

Are you running mammoths on base GS?

With GSA's summon AI, I've never seen a mammoth hit an immunity

Dark immune targets are the best ones because it forces the mammoth to actually use the good move (mire)

[true bronze]

Nope gsa, idk why but mine hit immunity

[twilit pumice]

Feel free to try it 😄
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTmr8V0BhXSCUBwIPoUSnmHr_NPS0f2sKRyHL8G6_uBTcEHCm5r9Y6PeoBoxTqY11k8Bt9Gb525CwVt/pubhtml

[true bronze]

🗿

Al 59, items 5 ang lower, alr got 2.5b+ orns 🗿

[thick wolf]

I hope i have all of that gear

Might need someone to kill some ang 30 moondrops that later then

[true bronze]

You just need any ang joist/ophion

Rest of items you can get with this week events

[thick wolf]

But prolly not in Ornate DX

[twilit pumice]

You mainly need high summon stats, whatever summon Stat gear you have is still fine. Like a.charon staffs. Anguishing makes the main difference here for additional summon stats. For the rest, the quality does not matter.

[thick wolf]

Ill see what i got. I need ang24 summon stat gear which i dont have most likely so i'll just do some moondrops later. <3

[tight dagger]

He said it's better "rn" which wouldn't be wrong with the more dark immunity mobs we are seeing, more chances for immunity block the more chances one can make a mistake and now you get AOE'd by an alfar mage and die tragically lol

[tight dagger]

Gsa and even with summon AI on pants, I've seen them hit plenty of immunity lol

AD doesn't have a dark immunity problem so it's easier to run AD rn cause of the dark immunity pool

But generally mammoth is better for normal times

If you picked up coral, you can pass tree of life to gazers

Make 4 immunity walls, but you also need lots of event gear and patience for that entire set up

Once it's set up, you don't have to worry about a Zerk RS board wiping you, since RS can't do any dmg to gazers

And debatably zerk RS is the only endless run ender

And ofc mystic feather users

[true bronze]

I lost my 1.1k run to it, mammoths dealt 0 to it

[tight dagger]

Once it redlines you're done for

[quick gyro]

First time playing GS. Made it to floor 1843 in farming gear at Mel 26. Made 22B orns in one run. This really isn’t balanced in any way, shape or form, I’ll have enough orns to never have to farm them again in a couple of days

[true bronze]

What's your al?

[quick gyro]

150 something. But I have people in my kingdom getting around 8-10B per run at AL10

[true bronze]

Its gonna be hard to balance, since if you nerf endless overall, every class suffers

If you nerf gsa, that class becomes unusable

[quick gyro]

Can’t they just make the maluses apply to summons? The fact that things like “chance to live at 1hp” doesn’t apply to summons attacks is baffling for example

This legitimately makes orn farming a thing of the past, I’m gonna play it for 3 days and then never touch endless again

[true bronze]

Yes that would make gsa suck in other contents, will make it like pets for beos? Yes

[quick gyro]

Don’t all classes have to deal with maluses though? ATM summons just ignore them and abuse the +3% stats per level

[true bronze]

However, should't item bonuses be applied to summons to like for beos and pets?

So 20% dragon from bulwark be applied to my Ad as its applied for beos

You Can't just nerf worst class just bc its good in one content, yes its op there but it sucks in everything else

[quick gyro]

Like, I get people like being able to do this, but we have to be honest and agree that killing the need to farm orns by playing the class for a few days is super broken

[true bronze]

Yes its broken, but have you tried using gsa for any other content?

[quick gyro]

I legitimately will never have to worry about orns again

[true bronze]

And you'll hoc to another class that can grind 5x faster and safer

[quick gyro]

One thing doesn’t excuse the other. Fix GSA, by all means, but this thing is completely game breaking

[true bronze]

Problem isn't just gsa, but ppl hocing to it for quick orns and hoccing back to better classes imo

[quick gyro]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they even disabled endless while they worked on it, because this completely breaks things

[true bronze]

Gsa is better for orns but its alot worse in everything else, what gsa needs is rework not nerf

[quick gyro]

Can you blame them? That just shows how broken the class is at trivializing one of the most important resources in the game

[true bronze]

Yes, that's why it should have whole rework, not just nerf and maybe rework next year

[quick gyro]

There’s “better for orns”, and then there’s “you get what is virtually an infinite amount of orns in 3 days”

[true bronze]

So what would you do then? To not make gsa unusable while making endless harder

[noble flower]

Point still stands, but having 10AL doesn’t really mean anything if what’s carrying them is a very high Mel level and an stacked high anguish level summon stats loadout

[quick gyro]

I don’t know but if there’s any thing that needs a bandaid fix it’s this. I’d even be in favor of them disabling endless while they work on something

[twilit pumice]

Mmhhh... What are you or your kingdom mates doing different than me? I usually reach only around f700-800 and get 1-1.5 billion. With 28 GSA ALs, Mel 16, and not much missing to max summon Stats (around 300k hp mammoth). Or are you playing HoA, which might have different endless scaling?

[quick gyro]

I mean, anyone can drop a few moondrops and quickly get high anguish summon stats gear

[noble flower]

That’s only a 2H weapon, if something

[true bronze]

HoA is same scaling as orna

[quick gyro]

Playing orna. Unsure of what they’re doing specifically, they might have a higher Mel level than you though

[twilit pumice]

OK, probably that. At least I didn't hear about other "tricks"...

[noble flower]

I get around 900M reaching floor 700 with 57AL and low anguish summon stats gear, at Mel 6

[true bronze]

I got around 4.5b from 1.1k floors

[twilit pumice]

Ah, of course orna. It burns when I pvp 😄

[quick gyro]

I think the fairest option would honestly be to disable anguish endless while they work on it. The scaling is all out of whack there

They can keep endless up at ang0

[true bronze]

Also, if you can shackle, there's trick to get unshackled mammoth stats with shackled orns

[quick gyro]

That’s news to me

[true bronze]

You summon unshackled, then after done buffing, you shackle

Either visual buffs or you can shackle mid dg

Every class can do that, just summoners can abuse it

Idk why im even spending time here ngl, i alr abused endless with friends.

Everyone abused it alr, as usually after abusing you want it nerfed.

[quick gyro]

It’s more that I wasn’t really aware of how broken it actually was until I tried it. Legitimately shocked to see how much I got from one run

I knew it was good but it thought it was like 1B per run max after an elaborate setup

When in reality it’s 20x that

[shadow salmon]

and they said beo world farming for orns was broken smh

[quartz oriole]

i wonder how my buddy with 100 als at mel 15 farmed only 5.5b orns in 1 run while reaching f1.5k

hmm ig those players with 10 als must be doing something different then huh

even in hoa people with al 10 on their gsa couldnt even get pass floor 600 cus zerk rs would kill them

so if a player with 150+ als on high mel farms a lot of orns or does anything that goes beyond normal we nerf that cus typically player with that stat shouldnt be doing those kinda feats eh? U guys used a gs with 220+ als as an example, farmed orns using a 150+ als gs. Surely the whole player base of people who plays gs are doing the same thing too eh?

just cause a player from top 000.1% pull it off doesnt mean the rest of the players can too. What im seeing here is that high al players would abuse it as much as they can and then complain its broken and would want it to be nerfed to ground. So that other players are not gonna benefit from it as well.

there's a lot of exeggeration that I can see from here on how a low al gs couldve done the same feat and farm as much x amount of orns without als.

if thats the case why are u guys even wasting a hoc to farm orns on gs? couldnt u guys just do it with low als on high mel? I smell a lot of bitching and inaccuracy from all of these statements lol.

doesn't make a lot of sense to me, all these deity players complaining on how much x amount of orns they get huhu boohoo who cares. Even if u have x amount of orns and can sustain you for 10 years that wouldnt mean shit, u can't buy mats with orns. Nerfing a single class instead of reworking how the endless system is kinda retarded eh? no critical thinking at all.

all i see here is a lot of yapping and complaining and no actual good insight. All calling out for a class nerf to a dogshit class who can only perform at endless and raids with bp. Im a beo main but golly, imagine abusing the system for yourself and then cry about on how broken it is you want to nerf an entire class who only excels at a single thing. It kinda screams hypocrisy to me, sorry not sorry.

hopefully these so called changes that you guys want will only be applied to orna lol

I don't see a player complaining and crying this hard on aethric. All I see is people trying to learn how to get past floor 500 on their GS, because the player base surely doesn't consist al 100+ players with high mel only.

and im not saying low al gs on aethric couldn't get a decent amount of orns, they actually do but its nowhere near at the level u guys are trying to bitch about. Maybe high al players should get compensated for investing that much time, effort into it yk? and not complain on how broken it is, bro u guys are using classes with stupid high amount of als ofcourse you guys are gonna do something amazing with it lol. Unnecessary nerfs are just gonna affect players with low amount of als for no reason, high al players can continously abuse and still make it work for them regardless.

[stiff marsh]

Please watch this video friend https://youtu.be/ALGD9T-p8xU?si=QXJwT_d_3yYOUNDw

This is not something that only a small percentage of people can do. This is something any summoner can do if they are able to increase their anguish level and their gear's anguish level

[quartz oriole]

thats pretty normal, I dont see why u guys are preaching and crying for nerfs

only floor 400+

orns are decent nothing too broken like u guys were saying about

this doesnt change anything

your whole arguement the whole time, ive been reading em phil i must say

you're not very good at this

[untold thorn]

Let’s keep personal attacks out of making arguments

[stiff marsh]

Only floor 448 at ang 22 AL0... making 700m orns in one dungeon. That is far from normal and way more than any other class can do

Orders of magnitude more. It's just broken 🤷‍♂️

[tight dagger]

I do want to keep track that it's also event locked

Not only do you need enough proofs for mel 22, but you need the events for the set up alongside the summon

Saying "any GS" can do this would be a bit of a overstatement, but to most of the prepared GS they could do something similar to it

[quartz oriole]

we nerf everything then

deity doing millions on aoe on dgns, as well as rs, towerfall doing way more than 30m on raids

with a few amount of als

[stiff marsh]

It's not event locked. The setup is made faster by event gear, but literally any gear with summon stats can be used to summon super high stat summons

[quartz oriole]

i could bring a list if u want, we could nerf every single one

u can only get mammoths during either june or november

ad from what ive heard is a bit slower than mammoth because you have to life pact in between runs cus they dont have sustain

and afaik gazers are still pita

so i dont know what point are u trying to make

if a class with 150als performs this good with high mel

we nerf it because its broken or simply the class is strong enough to do it?

[tight dagger]

Agree to disagree

You cannot pass many of the buffs shown here without event gear, which will drastically decrease the floor count you can achieve

On that note mammoth has much higher pen then any summon, it's not even a remotely close comparison

[quartz oriole]

even an al 0 with 400 floors on high mel, it is the class fault? or the ang system for the orn multipliers?

i want you to think very hard

i know its hard at times but try

[stiff marsh]

Boohoo keeps on trying to ragebait so I'll probably just mute lol

[quartz oriole]

all i see here is just uncalled for actions, the video u sent is not even a "broken thing" its just pretty normal and standard

[stiff marsh]

It doesn't take much thinking to see that they're ignoring the argument entirely and just trying to gaslight

[quartz oriole]

ofc at that level its normal to get that much orns

[quartz oriole]

call it ragebait or whatever you want, u havent made any rebuttals to the points I raised earlier

u just kept on saying its broken

and idk where you're going with it

there's a lot of people here already said that its not possible for any players to just pull it off right of the bat, experience, gears, event locked summons

[tight dagger]

I wasn't trying to rage bait or anything, I was simply just saying that a lot of the things shown in this video is VERY event locked

High stats summons mean nothing without being able to buff them properly, you'll lose out on a LOT of dmg output

[quartz oriole]

and convesation just went on blabbering without actually taking those into accounts by you

[stiff marsh]

Why would I interrupt you when you're making a fool of yourself so well

[quartz oriole]

yeah exactly

anyways make rich richer and the poor poorer am i right?

cus let every high al players abuse it, and then call out its broken

this only puts low al players on a tight spot

not every one is sweat, they just enjoy the game casually

not every nerfs are meant to target specific players, the solutions that were proposed will majority affect the low al palyers in a bad way

really negative summon stats? let summosn take malus? thats why i switched to beo because gs is already slow

[stiff marsh]

Yeah I agree on Ophion banner, but most classes have some level of event gear that is needed. Ophion banner is very light event restriction

[quartz oriole]

and u want to make it more hard for players?

just cause its good in endless?

[tight dagger]

But yeah I've probably already said my point multiple times

Being buffing for summoners is mostly event locked

Lots of summon stats gear is event locked

And even the main star of the show is event locked

[quartz oriole]

please somebody tell me that im wrong or ragebaiting lol

its just unfair lol, im not even a gsa main but ohh man thats dirty as hell yk

nerfing an entire class down because of endless, instead of adjusting the orn gains per floor level, or the orn system for anguish

[stiff marsh]

Very funny that boohoo came in crying accusing people of bitching and has been nonstop bitching for 20 minutes

[quartz oriole]

i mean you're pretty much active for the most part of the 1k conversation made in this thread

[tight dagger]

Ophion banner is the least of the restrictions

You need yel set from yel titan

Ophion banner/astera stance/ally chance gear/natureblight mammoth

And alignment books, all events well far apart from each other and one being the hardest titan in game lol

[quartz oriole]

the "crying" ive made is fasr lesser than yours

u can't even make a rebuttal to my actual points

u're just mad cus im not sugarcoating my words like a 5 year old

so i ask again, do u want to nerf the summoners itself when the system is the problem? think about it

adjust endless orn gains to a fix amount

or better yet the orn % for anguish mel

[tight dagger]

For me and my 4 immunity gazer set up, I probably go through near 7 events worth of gear maybe 8 in my buffing process

[quartz oriole]

how about you, youre a summoner main arent you?

[stiff marsh]

You have actual points? Sorry, hard to see anything past the tantrum you're throwing. I must say, you're not very good at this

[quartz oriole]

so nerf the summons or fix the orn gains to a fix amount

[quartz oriole]

we'll see

[tight dagger]

Yeah, but I already stated my points lol no need to explain much further on my end

[quartz oriole]

we can make a recall of the nerfs that you wanted to happen for summoners, doesnt sound bright to me tbh'

[quartz oriole]

yeah like he doesnt listen lol, why nerf summons when the system is the problem

nerf the summon and the class is pretty much playable for early game ONLY get your baldr gear and then switch to beo

why not fix the system itself why the class?

thats the whole point the people that are trying to make

[tight dagger]

It's more nerfing endless gains then summons for me

[quartz oriole]

yet he just kept on whining on how op gs is

[quartz oriole]

yeah thats what im saying

he just kept on insisting that summons are broken

thats just unwated nerf

for the class

just fix endless orn gains then

summmoner ang 1.0 was already doing this kind of feat it just make its more powerful because of anguish 2.0 orn scaling

[tight dagger]

Well that wasn't his whole point lol, hopefully not, but more so to nerf how much further ahead summoner is in endless content

[quartz oriole]

i dont really see the issue here, summoner is just an alright class

nerf its summons and good luck to you guys ig lol

[quartz oriole]

from what ive read it seems like it

bottom line is, adjust endless instead of making the summons worse

make orn gains fixed that way nobody would complain on how this class farmed x amount of orns

[stiff marsh]

Boohoo it seems like you didn't really read the arguments or proposed solutions, so maybe come back after you've read up on the thread?

[next cipher]

Ngl it's not even the GSA classline problem and that's a fact, it's the new system that made the class even stronger, this discussion should be changed to "change the anguish maluses in higher anguish so that GSA won't have high orn gains when doing endless" lol

[quartz oriole]

yeah and just asking for a gsa nerf blindly would hurt the class on other contents

[tight dagger]

Like if I were to make summoner less efficient in endless

It would be like this

1. Zerks shouldn't effect summons

2. Asteria stance/atlas stance shouldn't effect summons

3. Possible minion snapshotting fix

4. More dark immune enemies with AOE and a Similar redline to RS so it's more blocks

That would drastically nerf summoner endless runs considering the power boosts those things I've listed give

At the same time summoner would still be the best endless runner but you'd probably not be able to full throttle into orns gear and more so have to wear pact gear and slap on GSH XD

[stiff marsh]

Thing is, it's never just been "nerf gs in endless". The biggest gripe I have is that anguish makes it easier

Power should not increase with anguish level, difficulty should not decrease

[quartz oriole]

i agree, we need to do the same thing for beo

i dont think im allowed to stasis ang 50 raids

[stiff marsh]

You are allowed, not sure what you mean

[next cipher]

I have something in mind
neg summons stats
neg apex
neg collateral chance
neg flask

sounds fair for every class

for every anguish malus

[quartz oriole]

i dont think its fair that i can easily kill a raid at high anguish with stasis as you said

"Power should not increase with anguish level, difficulty should not decrease"

That would be hypocritical to only apply to endless content only

[stiff marsh]

How does higher anguish increase the beo's power?

[quartz oriole]

where people like me have farmed tons of proofs with ease on raids on agony using beo stasis

[stiff marsh]

A malus of -summon/follower stats is a good suggestion, it was brought up before. The rest idk, seem like too free a maluse for most classes and most builds

[stiff marsh]

Difficulty doesn't decrease for Beo as anguish goes up. Beo has to deal with maluses, and they have to use non-follower boosting gear if they wanna use stasis so they also don't outscale raids

[next cipher]

Stasis nerf is coming for sure, but beoAtamer with Asg is not just strong in higher anguish you'll need lots of ALs for it to hit big numbers

[quartz oriole]

pretty sure abyss did it with his al 17 beo on asg

but point taken

[noble flower]

Not really a good suggestion, since it also affects every other aspect of the game, where GSA is currently lacking

If endless is the only problem, just do an endless only nerf and that should be it

What Gurnn suggested

[quartz oriole]

here we go again i just said it earlier about this -summon follower malus

[stiff marsh]

It's a malus that can be dodged, unlike basically every other malus

[quartz oriole]

hahaha

[stiff marsh]

Making GS think about maluses is a first step 👍

[noble flower]

There’s probable a reason why Odie didn’t place those in the paths, and actually buffed it through gear

[quartz oriole]

ward absoprtion, 1hp instead of kill, summon protection, misses

[noble flower]

So I doubt it’s a good idea to create this now just because of endless

[quartz oriole]

i can keep going if you like

[stiff marsh]

Misses? You mean accuracy?

How exactly is gsa affected by that

[quartz oriole]

ughh if u nerf -summon stat pretty sure it would affect base gs too

idk if you know that

[stiff marsh]

How exactly is gs affected by accuracy

[quartz oriole]

so yeah clearly not thinking clearly about the nerfs, just nerf the orn gains, make the orns gains fixed or do something about the orn % per anguish level.

why the class gotta suffer when the system is the problem

[quartz oriole]

ugh blood pact?

ugh bl2?

[stiff marsh]

If you're doing those things as gs you can change your path choices accordingly

You get to ignore accuracy otherwise

You could argue that "oh I do ultima as gs so elemental dmg affects me" and it's still a bad argument lol

Summoning simply ignores most of the maluses. Even stuff like ward malus is negligible in endless since you're running orn gear and usually stun darting/stasis'ing enemies anyway. Getting hit is death regardless

[noble flower]

But the thing is like, if endless is the only problem, why nerf summon stats everywhere?

[stiff marsh]

It's just one of the possible solutions - add more maluses that matter so that anguish isn't a power increase

As it stands, increasing anguish is pure upside for gsa endless. That's a problem. You gain more stats than the enemy AND you ignore most maluses

[noble flower]

But it’s literally only a problem in endless, where you can snapshot and fully buff the summons

You can’t do that anywhere else

And that’s why GSA lacks pretty much everywhere

So just nerf it in endless if something

Don’t rework the paths and everything, because that’s just making it all extremely complicated and it also harms an already lacking class

[stiff marsh]

I would much rather rework things so that the class is more competent in other content and didn't get to abuse endless anguish

Improve performance everywhere that is needed while making anguish matter in endless

[tight dagger]

You'd be looking at an entire GSA rework for that unfortunately

And the nature of summons in general

Nerfing endless, nerfs GSA dungeons in general which is already pretty bad

But it's not like Gsa has to be good in dungeons, but it would need to be good somewhere lol better then GS/GSH hopefully in something otherwise we face a Gsh problem in which that class was one of the most unused classes

And even if the summons are outscaling enemies in anguish content it's NOT like that in all anguish content, only endless

In which buffs play a BIG part on the outscaling as well

[stiff marsh]

That is still not how that works

Buffs play 0 part in outscaling stats

[tight dagger]

Do a buff less endless run and tell me how it goes

[stiff marsh]

Baldrice, you don't understand what we mean when we talk about summon stats outscaling enemy stats

[noble flower]

But then why does the class lack everywhere else, since it still has the 3% summon stats per piece of gear?

That’s what he meant

[stiff marsh]

We already went over that too

Stats are not the only thing that determine whether you succeed or not. But other classes don't scale their stats higher than enemies do

Summons do; they get 15% stats multiplied by your ALs

Per anguish level

[noble flower]

But it’s still lacking everywhere else, so buffs DO play a big role in why outscaling stats play a big role in endless

[tight dagger]

Summons are much weaker then players, have much less multipliers and less potential to grow

Players on the other hand can well over outscale enemy stats

[noble flower]

Because if it was the outscaling stats alone it would be omega broken everywhere

But it isn’t

[noble flower]

.

[stiff marsh]

Buffs don't affect stats. Stats are the only thing that matters when it comes to getting 0'd out. Every additional anguish level on your summoner gear and endless run gets you deeper

[noble flower]

Snotra, zerks, and all those buffs affect stats and pen, too

[stiff marsh]

No they don't

Only like redline/blueline type of stats

No in-battle buffs increase penetration

If you get 0'd out and then use snotra and mag++ and DC, you will still be 0'd out. This is a known thing that is easy to not know until someone tells you (it's how I found out)

[stiff marsh]

You are welcome to go on a quest to rediscover this piece of info that has been known for a long time

I recommend this link

As a GSA with at least like.. 24 ALs (if my napkin math earlier in this thread was right), you should get deeper endless at ang 20 with ang 20 gear than at ang 10

I gotta step away 👍

[quartz oriole]

i kinda agree with phil, lets just nerf summon stats

[tight dagger]

Nerf summon stats in general would kill summoner in every other content further then it currently is imo

And on that note I'd rather have some sort of token that lets me go back to ang 1.0 XD

Gsa gameplay is already horrendous on ang 2.0 on every content but endless

[quartz oriole]

im pretty sure thats the most efficient solution out there, instead of acknowledging this fact.

[noble flower]

Hmmm, true, could’ve sworn snotra did increase pen

[noble flower]

#1449963223724855448 message

Tbh I feel like this is the best one

[tight dagger]

Before the Eistla Stance nerf it probably did lol

I miss when eistla stance worked on summons 😔💔

[stiff marsh]

A malus that gave -summon stats is just a malus that you try to dodge, and would just be a flat subtraction from your total stats. That is a much smaller nerf than decreasing gear summon stat gains or deleting them from endless

[quartz oriole]

why even settle for that? realistically speaking only high al gs players could truly maximize endless in orns gains. Why do u summoners have to settle for something like that?

[quartz oriole]

right right

[stiff marsh]

Again, 0 AL summoners can do better than 100 AL of most other classes

I make great gains as heretic and I'm only 77 ALs. 0 al summoner run dwarfs my gains

[quartz oriole]

sucks to be them ig, too bad their class isn't built for snpashotting efficiently on the most specific content in the entire game. It sucks for those other classes to struggle at all in raids, where im just sitting pretty here with my stasis killing a here with no difficulty.

[stiff marsh]

The problem is that this level of endless abuse makes orns a joke. Orns will become as relatively abundant as gold if this is left as is

We'll lose Orns as a currency

[quartz oriole]

doesn't matter if u have this x amount of orns, it doesn't buy u mats. So what if deity can only earn like 2b and summoner earns 10b, they're already pretty good at other contents anways. So what if summoner is good at endless it doesn't even shine at other contents anyways. U wanna know what's busted? people like me that can farm ang 50 raids with stasis cheese, getting a lot of proofs to cash in for mats. That's the real game changer, orns are i can farm just fine without using summoner.

[stiff marsh]

We'd never be able to make orns relevant for anything in the game again. I already pointed this out earlier in this thread, it just throws out orns from game design entirely

[quartz oriole]

let's be real here, even if u get 100b orns, you won't be able to spend that at all in a short amount of time. It doesn't matter how much u can get, how much u can earn. It doesn't buy u mats, it doesn't do anything unless your deep into als. And even then its like like 200m orns going 300m orns per ascension at my level. I can get that just fine passively.

No one is farming endless content 24/7 cus realistically spekaing if u have 20b orns u don't need to run endless for 2 months or even more. Unless your slaving your life away in this game 24/7

[quartz oriole]

then not a gsa problem

blame the system not the tool

[noble flower]

That won’t really do anything when it comes to endless if the 3% summon stats per level remains. Like, it can be dodged, and a flat substraction is nothing.

[stiff marsh]

People HoC to gs, farm 60b orns in one run, maybe casually a few hundred billion in a week to a month

[noble flower]

I just don’t want to see the class being f up everywhere else or trying to rework anguish paths just because of endless

[quartz oriole]

only high players can pull crazy those feats btw, i don't see anyone with 0al gs constantly farming endless cus for what

[stiff marsh]

Yes only high AL ppl will pull 60b orns in one run, point is that this problem will only compound

[tight dagger]

I think we've already discussed the orn issue

It's more so orn possiblity but atm orns are mainly used for Al's any other orn spender is farmable by any class at some low effort

But as it stands if billions of orns is farmed, then it makes orns more irrelevant then they currently may be for a lot of us

[quartz oriole]

do u see them farming 24/7 the whole month? not doing anything besides that? u don't even get a lot of proofs from endless. If u do 1 endless yo don't even have to farm for a long time. It's just 1 endless run per 2 months realistically speaking, cus ain't no way you're gonna. get orn blocked after 1 endless run.

[stiff marsh]

Yeah, but it's just one suggestion. It can be part of a bigger number of changes

[quartz oriole]

with the nerf you're suggesting it'll only make gs bad on every other content, and make lower al players suffer from what? high al players doing just fine cus they're high al players and making the game look easy?

there's no cap at this game, als are infinite, u can't specifically nerf and target high al players

[stiff marsh]

People don't need to farm 24/7 but they choose to farm endless however long they want until they never need orns again

[quartz oriole]

only low al players will be affected

[quartz oriole]

yeah which is realistically speaking 2 runs of endless is enough

even 20b orns is enough to last for 2 months, i have 25b orns and its been 2 months its still 21b orns

[tight dagger]

I would probably suggest to tests some of these changes to see how far summoners get in endless without these things, considering you'd lose a huge dmg output, if enemies get more turns, that's more chances on dying or losing a summon

[stiff marsh]

You're only thinking about what is currently enough. Why wouldn't someone farm a trillion orns over the course of a month just because they can

[quartz oriole]

and so? would that make the game unplayable for u?

if somebody is gonna do that for sure only high al player with high anguish

[stiff marsh]

It would make the game worse because Orns would no longer be meaningful

[quartz oriole]

would that make u unable to play the game cus he can farm that many orns at his level?

[quartz oriole]

i agree, cus i can just stasis cheese my raids and make ang 2.0 useless

the so called challenge is just cheesable

[stiff marsh]

And that's had crosshairs on it since the start

[quartz oriole]

trust me, being able to farm ang 50 raids especially during a turkey event is much more broken than and endless orn gains

even without turkey event i can still abuse it just fine

cash those proofs for mats

in orns u don't

[tight dagger]

But yeah I offered my input in here, no need to circle old points over and over lol

I wish the best of luck to a fair solution

[quartz oriole]

orns is just the same as gold, except gold is much easier to farm. orns are becoming like that too but not by a huge margin. I don't see players going for the orn cap cus why what's even the point. U don't need that many orns, an endless runs averages like 2 hours or more, why do u even need to spend that many hours for what. It's not practical, if u wanna brag that's on u but it doesn't change anything, it doesn't make my wanna stop and unable to farm orns.

it's just orns sooner or later it's gonna overflow and there's nothing we can do about it. Is it gonna break the game? hell no, would it overflow soon? no it would take a huge amount of time before all or even half the player base comes to that point

proofs > orns

if gsa was able to get a fuck ton amount of proofs from endless yeah nerf it why not

but it's just orns

otherwise I don't see the point at all

[ivory breach]

Did you watch the video?
It's not done in 15 minutes.
The video is sped up in many places through the power of video editing.
e.g.
https://youtu.be/ALGD9T-p8xU?t=811

My runs usually take more like 35-40 minutes to get to floor 500.
Though I'm at lower anguish with worse gear.

Plus runs can also randomly die pretty easily in the setup phase or just a random berserk.

[quartz oriole]

and also it takes a lot of time to set up for gs especially you have to watch which buff have u put on or missing

it's not possible to get 700m in less than 20 mins lol

set up give or take is 10 mins

swapping classes constantly equipping spells and i have not everyone have a lot of gear slots

so changin the gear as well

[stiff marsh]

Yeah I realized later in the thread I had the run duration wrong. Parts are sped up and parts are normal speed so it messed me up

It's still much faster than I can make 700m orns with 77 AL heretic

[quartz oriole]

and you're not doing bad just cause the other one earns more

it's just the class itself benefits from that specific content the way it's built

I'm sure heretic shines more in the other content over gsm It's just that gs is so bad for every other content, that in endless that's where it'll only shine the most

[stiff marsh]

I do really well for heretic bc I do pet swapping, but that's not really the point. The class can be better and that's fine too; the problem is

• anguish is free power
• anguish is free orn boost

The crux of the issue is anguish being a straight up power increase, meaning that you can go nuts with higher and higher anguish

GSA was already a great endless runner, but abusing anguish like this makes things go crazy

[quartz oriole]

i do beo endless too, it's not as huge as summoner gains but I'm fine with that, I can't make my beo earn more than gs. I shine in other content so I don't need to worry about that

[quartz oriole]

which can and only be abusable by high al players, and then again endless is not the only content that is abusable. If we look at the other contents like agony, me as a beo main would do more abusing compared to gs

because those proofs i farmed much faster much easier could be cashed as mats in returns

where as opposed to gs it's only orns no nothing

so there's no point

to try and target high al plyars that really do well for their own at high mel

[stiff marsh]

I agree beo stasis is a problem as well. That doesn't make the gsa endless issue any better

[quartz oriole]

not every ome can pull that off we can't bring them into the same level

[quartz oriole]

the only thing that makes my beo a problem is that those said proofs can be exchanged for mats thus letting me get higher and higher ascension. If im orn block that's so easy and free, mat block on the other hand is a different problem.

orns obviously are important but at the end of the day the proofs i farmed is can do more for me cus it can be converted for mats unlike orns wher eit would just sit for a long time

and not get even be chunked at all

idk if you're familiar with this but there's a player in hoa who's farming ang 50+ raids on beo and he jump from al 255 -303 in just 3 months because of agony. Endless for sure yeah it would help but it would not make me as strong as me being able to exploit proofs for mats

no matter what u do orns will only take u so far

[stiff marsh]

Beo anguish avoids difficulty in raids through stasis, gsa anguish gets easier in endless through lack of meaningful maluses and too much stat scaling. Both are issues but this thread is about GSA endless

So not much point in talking about beo right now

[quartz oriole]

still that's why endless is not that huge of a problem compared to other things

[stiff marsh]

I've heard this argument over and over again in this thread and have explained why I still see it as a big problem 👍

[quartz oriole]

calling it busted cus of the x amount of orns it can get and fsrm? how about my beoA that farmed 100k proofs because ik cheesing agony. Why is that not getting batter on? why endless is different?

[quartz oriole]

yep

i can do this all day

[stiff marsh]

Because this thread is not about beo

[quartz oriole]

yeah point is endless orn gains are nothing, it can't buy u mats

nada

[stiff marsh]

You are welcome to open a thread about beo stasis

[shadow salmon]

Hmm I wonder if instead nerfing GSA, something to cap any mat income (gold/exp/orns/mats etc) relative to your highest AL would help. Like an AL0 summoner can't have any orn income higher than 25mln per kill

Balances any "low effort/high reward" strats

[quartz oriole]

u don't get much proofs in endless, orns are not that game breaking. Sure kt would help u but not unlike the proofs u can get from other contents.

[stiff marsh]

I'm gonna stop responding to "endless doesn't matter" comments from you Boohoo

[quartz oriole]

sure

i don't mind

[shadow salmon]

Gives a lot more incentive to HoC, and I'm aware some people will say "HoCs are free" well at least you still need to have the appropriate mats/orns to ascend high enough AL

And with scaling cap on mat income, this could also somewhat address infinite ALs as it gets exponentially even harder to ascend

[quartz oriole]

but then again, it's not the class fault

[untold thorn]

Cool, caught up.

So we are still at:

-GSA because of Anguish maluses and/or summon gear stat scaling at high melancholy is a concern

-GSA isn’t great at anything else so if something happens and it hurts GSA endless, the class will be awful is also a concern

Proposed solutions, fixes and reworks vary in complexity

[lone flume]

there are 2 factions here lol

one who believes that nerf (indirect) shouldn't happen

and one who want gs to feel challenges of ang 2

[quartz oriole]

yep cus i know for a fact that gsa wouldn't do anything with those orns

cus they're not getting as much proof as me with more ease

[lone flume]

ofc i believe that we shouldn't get nerf but if other class get their nerf in their content and gs get buff in other content then I'm fine

[quartz oriole]

so what is it gonna do? and u can't stop people hoccing from the class if they want to try it out

[lone flume]

boohoo I get you

orns will become useless sooner or later

mats are way precious

[ivory breach]

I think the more fundamental issue is Summoner is kinda conceptually broken.

The only scaling for classic (non-pact) summoner is %stat scaling.
Anguish is supposed to scale relevant weapon/armor statistics.
For stat %, I think it has to be in 1% increments too.

If anguish levels on gear doesn't scale %stats it's useless for summoner.
If it does, it's free scaling esp. due to the snapshotting.

For summoner to be "balanced" in endless, the scaling on summons
and general summoning system would have to be overhauled.

Without changing these design choices,
I think summoner is fundamentally going to be either really good or really useless in endless with no in-between.

[quartz oriole]

not every nerf brings a new build or something, it doesn't create anything. Look at ultima it's dead no one uses it, do the same thing with gsa just because it's more suitable for this type of content then it'll happen. And that's unfair, im a beo main but that just seem unfair for the gs mains.

[lone flume]

ofc it is

gsa dungeon will be affected by endless nerf

and even if it doesn't affect

then gsa will become unplayable

there must be a reason why devs didn't include many summoner malues in ang paths

[quartz oriole]

cus gsa and the whole class is just alright for bare minimum. Its a mid tier class it's not broken and it's not super underperforming either.

summoner is only good for early game, once u build other classes those classes will do much faster and better the long run.

but gsa is a unique class on itself

[lone flume]

gs nerf (indirect) is very unnecessary

almost every class has a thing it's good at

let gs stay good in endless

[quartz oriole]

that's why it doesn't matter if this class can farm so many orns, and if it does like farm above 10b orns those are only high al players. And a single endless runs takes a lot of time and for sure tiring, i would burn out for like 3 endless runs consecutively.

[lone flume]

that isn't even exploitable in early t10-11

[quartz oriole]

nto to mention the amount of gears u need to collect and farm

• mammoth

[lone flume]

almost every thing gears, summon etc

even then you have to be lucky to survive

[ivory breach]

Even if we don't bring up other content types (e.g. beo anguish),

I do think it is relevant that the main thing gained here is gold/orns which in the long run isn't too impactful.
Without a way to convert Orns/Gold into more precious resources (materials) this means that it's not actually going to imbalance the game.

Importantly too,
in any game with a high degree of uncapped scaling,
whatever class happens to scale the best will eventually greatly out-perform every other class.
For endless, this just so happens to be GSA right now.

I do agree that in principal you would think "more investment" should be needed for that degree of performance,
but if you want to change that Summoner as a class would need to be overhauled.

Summoner (especially in T7-T9) is designed such that it performs extremely well at low degrees of investment,
but also doesn't have many effective options to invest in since so much power comes from the class passives and spells.
Outside of anguish, Summoner has basically no scaling available from Quality, very little/minimal from most adornments, and thus basically just cares about defensive stats.

That all in mind, similar to others I don't think this is an issue that needs to be fixed right now.
Even if the 77 AL Heretic isn't out-performing the 0 AL summoner at endless,
I expect there's other things the Heretic does much better.

If not, I think the bigger issue is instead Heretic not having something it's particularly good at,
or just generally being weak at everything.

[quartz oriole]

good take, correct on all accounts

[stiff marsh]

No, Heretic is great at a lot of stuff - I just used my personal experience as a good endless runner for heretic

Summoner vastly outperforms everyone in endless by large amounts of AL and anguish levels

[quartz oriole]

to put another comparison if a gsa 100 als is getting beat on by a deity with 10als on dungeon clearing speed. Like it clears much faster and efficiently, shouldn't that mean we nerf deity? no because it's kit and the way it's built made it like that to perform better in dungeons. The same thing for gsa too, It's just that u get more value using this specific class for this specific content. If that class isn't the best for it then doesn't mean that the other one broken simply it's built like that. Each classes has it's own strengths and weaknesses, gsa just so happens to be good in that specific content.

more depth = more orns, more depth = more time, it's exhausting to run an endless it burns u out.

and as u said orns as not as impactful in the long run in contrast with proofs for mat conversion

im sure heretic can farm orns just fine, it's not as huge as summoner gains but if it works then it works. It's not like orns will make u ascend much faster though.

[twilit pumice]

Before GS endless, people were HoC'ing to Dara for a week to have enough orns for the next year. Now people HoC to GS (after several days of upgrading and anguishing all required items) for 1 or 2 days to have enough orns for a year. So is GS more efficient for orn farming? Yes. Is it a game changer? Of course not.

Nevertheless, I will continue to farm orns with GS endless instead of enjoying winter wild hunt because of this thread. Mainly because I hate endless, even if it is at least some fun with GS. And so do many others.

Even if I wouldn't like to see that new players don't have this option, it will for sure not impact the current generation of advanced endgame players anymore 🤷

[quartz oriole]

true, this is ang 1.0 from halloogood in aethric he hocced in gs he got 200 als and farmed a lot of orns in ang 1.0 before switching to ang 2.0

gsa is already doing this kind of feats pre ang 2.0

so there's not much really a point to downgrade gs just cause everyone can do it much better now compared back then

[tidal wyvern]

Yes please. Asap.

[tidal wyvern]

I would switch "for year" to "for life" in GS case. It is 5x-10x faster than DAra. 🤷‍♂️

[twilit pumice]

First, you HoC to a GS last weekend for heavily farming Orns, and then immediately afterwards you demand that this option shall be prevented for everyone else as soon as possible? I usually value your opinion, but this time you've really disqualified yourself...

[tidal wyvern]

seems you are not following me in this topic since begin 🤷‍♂️

I ask to nerf it since this is possible. And sadly I almost don't know any person who didn't abused it by now. I switched for this weekend to join the pack ...ran 2 endless so far - which I didnt even finish. So yea, still want to turn down asap. 🤷‍♂️

[stiff marsh]

I mean a lot of people have not abused this, myself included lol

[quartz oriole]

must be so hard for deity mains

[true bronze]

So everyone you know, uncluding you abused it, then you want to nerf it?

Would't it be fair to make odie take all orns gotten from it while giving some compensation then?

[quartz oriole]

their steak isn't as buttery as gs on endless content while completely dominating outside of endless content. Let's call a nerf on this class cus it is so better than my god class. I'm only earning this x amount of orns instead of 10x like that class. Should we also make deity less efficient in dungeons cus apparently an al 100 gs is getting outshined by a much lower al deity on mel horde content?

[true bronze]

Bc all im hearing rn is 0.1% or even less, wanting to nerf something, so newbies have harder time snd don't catch up

[quartz oriole]

Hoc to gs "abuse" orn farming -> then proceeds to call it op -> asks for a nerf

[jaunty estuary]

No, you can't give compensation for fixes like this. It sets a bad precendent, and you can't differentiate those who have done it from those who haven't, so you're going to give a blanket compensation (which includes those who have done it).

If you do fix it, it can't be compensated. Same thing happened with refineries.

[quartz oriole]

seriously even if u earn 5b orns that's not gonna go away really really fast. There's barely any use for orns like for als and switching classes. Realistically you won't be spending those otns in 1 go, it's just gonna get stuck for a while. You can't convert those into mats like gold in the grandmarket.

so what's this complaining about orn gains? Nerf gs cus what high al players made it possible to get those x amount of orns and your class can't do the same cus they aren't built good for snpashotting like gs is?

i can go here all day about things that are actually broken

all i see is a bunch of people insecure enough cus they're class can't pull it off. Holy copium, ig people just wanna nerf everything cus high al people are making it look easy. "Holy smokes guys this is so broken, so i actually hocced to gs with 100+ als" yeah what do u think man u got 100+ als and high mel. I've said it multiple times and I'll say it again, orns can't be cashed in for mats, gold can be, proofs can be. Now just cus your class ain't earning as much as the other you're doing way bad lol. U guys want deity and heretic dominate all contents? be good at every single content with no drawbacks? Gs is slow as shit anyways let that dogshit class shine in endless lol. That's why u guys aren't gs mains in the first place cus it's slow as shit. Gs is a mid tier class, just enough to do the anguish content at a minimum pace. If you want your heretic or deity to earn as much then what's the point of playing this class if this class can just do anything. It's given that a class should have a weak spot for a specific content snd strong spot for other contents.

given how bad gs is, only i can see it being good is endless unfortunately or probably raids cus of bp but I don't really know about that. Deity, beo, heretic does every other content twice as fast compared to gs and much efficiently compared to gs.

if gs isn't gonna be good for something then might as well delete that class. Cus at this point it's just an early game class u use to build your true and actual class.

And make sure to only apply this type of changes only yo your game. Cus I don't see any dam people complaining about i in hoa. It's unfortunate thst whatever type of update gets pushed to us without us having a real say to it while most of the orna players just randomly decided something is broken after abusing it so bad. If we're only not gonna be affected by this change we're not gonna jump into this thread

[tidal wyvern]

That is some mental breakdown.

Everytime something is way ahead of others, there is usually some kind of step up. I will repeat myself for hudred time already - I don't mind GS being best in endless, I do mind the huge gap.

There is no such gap in any other content, between any class. Gap between GS endless and 2nd behind it is bigger than 1st to last in any other content. It makes no sense however you put it.

Orns still has its use, I spend hours to have orns for my ALs (Im over 30 bil orns in my ALs, I dont even dare to guess how many hours it took me, I used to do 300mil/hour back at AL60 for instance...I still need to spend 1 hour for 3 ALs in endless. It is still some effort, now I did 6bil in hour nit finishing my run and I see same AL/geared players do 15/bil hour on avg). I spend hours in endless to build towers (as I bet every low AL players do). But now this time is cut to 1/10. Probably even less - when AL20 GS in our kingdom, at ang25, write "new pb, f1000 in full orn in 1 hour". And he build with that last 2 towers right away. Which he couldnt afford before. Ok.

So yea. Orns just turned to trivia. 🤷‍♂️

[quartz oriole]

i mean maybe deity shouldn't be the be always the Best for everything yk, let gs take over. Deity isn't built for an efficient snpashotting like gs. Maybe that's why deity is getting a nerf left and right, players just wants it to be the best at every content.

always complaining on how unfair it is for them to be earning this x amount, or how hard this content for them. what can do actually do when the class that's built for snpashotting can equip more orn gears to maximize full orn income. Doesn't resort to ultima cus the summons are doing its job for em. Gsa is just built like that likenottor not, it's gonna outscale us deity and beo for orn income.

Earning 300m orns per hour isn't even that bad even for aethric earning 300m in 1 hour back in ang 1.0 is still huge

and even for ang 2.0 now that's still huge

like or not gs is just built that way for endless even pre ang 1.0, it's gonna do better than us deity beo and heretic rs and gilga

we shine in other content this class doesn't, we can farm more much efficiently than this class especially on beo on agony, heretic and rs, deity on mel and despair and what not

[pearl marten]

Just add mammon in endless and gs wont climp high

[quartz oriole]

those proofs are gonna get cashed in for mats in return, orns is just orns it's not game breaking to earn that x amount. And for even new players to reach a decent floor like abyss on high mel did they have to go through a bunch of evnt locked items

[quartz oriole]

yeah just like that it's ggs

[quartz oriole]

yel + wintea gears + ophion + charon staff or any other weap eith 30% summon stat. 25% accessory amity, gadgets, etc.

there are so many items to farm

this so called nerfs u guys ask for will only affect low al players

you guys in high in al gets to 'abuse' it and then report it's broken

[tidal wyvern]

300mil is 0 AL DAra currently. 🤷‍♂️ It is not huge. And way more on GS

[quartz oriole]

talk about hypocrisy

[tidal wyvern]

Im sorry. Im for nerfed everytime. For each class. Most likely way beofre you even start to play (and way before you joined this dc). I dont like any way of powercreep.

[stiff marsh]

This is completely false and already been proven in this thread many timeS

Summoners of every AL can abuse this like crazy, more ALs make it worse but it's a massive issue at AL0

[quartz oriole]

id that's the case why not every low al gsa in aethric is already at billions and billions of orns, why everybody doesn't have. 5 towers built

[quartz oriole]

great then cus i don't think its alright for me as a beo to farm ang 50 raids with ease and get to stakc 100k of proofs to later cash it for mats

[tidal wyvern]

Cuz not everybody know how to do it. They will have to be active in dc or search specific orna youtubers.

[quartz oriole]

endless is nowhere near broken in agony as a beo, orns doesn't matter as much as proofs. U can earn just the right amount of orms and still make it viable to ascend.

[quartz oriole]

that's the thing not every is good at it so why even bother if only 3% of the player base knows how to

[tidal wyvern]

Cuz information spread.

[quartz oriole]

their own ignorance made it for them hard, and nobody will put the same amount of efforts like us to actually learn it. Most of the people are just casuals anyways only us high al lmayers can benefit and eilltbe able to pull these kind of feats anyways

[tidal wyvern]

Thats not an excuse to keep things.

[stiff marsh]

These are not good stances. The issue exists regardless of who is currently abusing it

[tidal wyvern]

Also - I dont think any Beo kill raids several times faster than 2nd fastest class.

[quartz oriole]

not eveyone can make the most of out it, if that's the case then everyone in the game could've been farming a lot of proofs like me

[tidal wyvern]

I dont even think any beo kill raids several times faster than slowest class.

[quartz oriole]

im pretty sure i do

[stiff marsh]

Every single t10 player could use summoner to make way more orns than their main class could with a lot less effort.

[tidal wyvern]

Can you show me proof and I will leave this thread and GS?

[stiff marsh]

Beo stasis is pretty problematic tbh

[tidal wyvern]

Not saying its not. But "several times" is the point.

[pearl marten]

Stasis in general is problem

[tidal wyvern]

Im in for some beo nerf since tower drop.

[quartz oriole]

at the end of the day this game is just pve content, it doesn't affect pvp. Orns can't be turned into mats that'll be my main argument here, I only see true value and broken if a person could actually exploit it and turn it for mats. Which in this case it doesn't, at least gold can buy u msts in the grand market, orns doesn't so what good will my 20b orns will do if I can't do something with it besides paying al doesn't happen as much cus im not ascending everyday.

[pearl marten]

Beo buff when

[tight dagger]

As the slowest class (GSA raiding) beo can probably kill 5 raids before I'm done with 1 lol

Then straight up pumkinless is impossible, alongside some other AOE raids for summon raiding

Most classes are league's ahead in terms of speed compared to a summoner using summons for everything

They only excel at endless

No 0AL summoner is reaching floor 1k in under an hour considering you need to t.buff cycle and stay on your toes the whole time

And the occasional RS can end your run if not paying attention, they simply will 0 your summons on redline

Or immunity mobs will get a turn and also end your run

[tight dagger]

This is spreading misinformation

Not every T10 player has 6 events worth of summoner gear for endless lol

[shadow salmon]

I can reach f600 in an hour but that's at AL50
My alts Al 15 only made it to f400ish before dumb summon AI and insufficient dmg/penetration made it succumb to a redlined RS zerk

[tight dagger]

As an AL100

It usually takes me around 15 minutes of set up, and then I might make it to floor 600 or 700 in an entire hour, probably spend nearly 2-3 hours in endless sometimes more then 4 hours depending on my summons and set up lol

A lot of the time you can just die in set up XD

[shadow salmon]

Another run also ended around the same floor because of a redlined zerk Gilga out warding the damage lol

[ivory breach]

Yeah you do really want some specific event gear.

The setup takes a lot more time and is a lot more random if you don't have a full set of Yel gear + Ophion Banner especially
and you don't have a good way to pass berserk without the Yel + ophion.
Without those it can take 100+ floors to do setup via Charmer spells, and you won't go nearly as deep.

Though there's also some stuff you can't pass without some of the fomoria house stuff?
I at least do not have everything for the full setup yet, and have no idea when I will.
I just have the riftfall/giants/wyrmhunt stuff right now.

[tight dagger]

Gazer set up can take me around 30-40 minutes of set up

But that's because I try to pass tree of life to them via passing ophion stance to coral before it buffs itself

[ivory breach]

oh right. I got lucky and have bone mammoths

so I'm at about 4 events worth of stuff

all of which don't really have anything that you can replace them with

plus once you start using the riftlock for the summon chance you have a lot more runs die before floor 10

Will probably be better once I get a 2nd one, but no idea how long it'll take to roll into that from EoD

[tight dagger]

Yeah you need

Yel set+ophion banner for most of your buffs ( otherwise you can't pass zerks which is a huge dmg loss )

Ally chance gear to pass asteria stance, or If you couldn't kill yel, pass ophion stance

Alignment books from appolyon

Riftlocks ( 2 of them if you plan on surviving set up phase )

Mammoth is our highest pen summon, gazer is our safest summon, AD is a good middle ground

[ivory breach]

Before getting the Yel set,
I'd start 5 at a time usually,
have maybe 2 get past floor 200
cap out before floor 400
and overall take about 2.5-3 hours

Though at the time I didn't have my stuff anguished up much

but higher anguish would also have just meant dying randomly more often

Oh right

I forgot about the alignment books

Main point is, lots of very specific event gear that is the only source of what it does

and still having an extremely volitile setup phase where its easy to die in early floors

[quartz oriole]

and this shows that gs mains are crazy cus nobody would go into this hellish set up every run everytime. People are lucky gs mains simplified some of the stuff to make it easy for people to follow through. Is it really that broken if people like this have thought it through? Or it's just really strong cus people taught other people on how to do it efficiently. I never heard no cycling shit whatever and only finding out some techs on summoner now.

clearly shows that if u have an exceptional amount of als you could just not do all the stuff they said cus you're pretty strong already at that point. But for most people who doesn't have batshit levels on ascension it's most likely like this. A lot of techs for 1 endless run just to make it efficient on their own level

and some people can easily cherry pick their progress out of 100 tries. And it's so easy to say or to take it face value that oh that's broken. Without having 0 clue at all on how they actually did it. And even if u do exceptionally well on your first try it's either luck or u have high al on gsa to pull it off, sometimes both.

[true bronze]

Setting up my endless run took me around 10min with insane asteria luck. Usually 15min+- to setup. When i get lucky with tbuff cycling, focus alot and don't gotta change classes, i got to f700 in hour(45min since setting up).

I'd like to see few runs from low als/high als getting those crazy orns in hour.

Bc as of rn, only clips i see are from al 100+, 150 or even 200, but i didn't see a single one done by al 20

[ivory breach]

The last time I did a bunch of runs (Saturday),
I think I got about 600m orns in about 2 hours.

AL 6, Anguish 6 at the time I think.

had about 3/5 runs survive past early floors.

Was using all the boosts I could grab.

• Orn bonus from astral tree
• kindom orn bonus
• spelunking event bonus
• shrine bonus
• 1x 25% accessory amity.
• godforged 2x questing items, lost helmet, jester
• usual coin items.
• 2x normal quality Band of Gods
  Might be forgetting something

I was using assassin spec to make stun dart more consistent since I don't have good +status chance shoes.

Wasn't able to pass asteria stance since I don't have the gear to allow me to do that.
Do have books, mammoth, yel gear, riftlock, ophion banner
and did have my stuff demonforged up to AL 6

[twilit pumice]

Just to give some perspective:
I just had my first f980 orn run. Then, my mammoth were zeroed by zerk RS (even with def/res-). It took around 2 hours. Usually, I reach around f800. AL29, Mel17, all gear, close to max summon Stats, often switching to different class for 1-turn dc (Rhada pact), sometimes to another class for stasis (and finishing in orn Gear).

Yes, I earned a lot of orns. But I can't believe that new t10 players can get close to that. Most of my (experienced) kingdom mates are happy if they get 500 million. Before, it was rather 200 Mio with Dara (no/low AL). The main reason is of course: they don't hoc. I also didn't hoc to GS, and also before I didn't hoc to Dara. I would only hoc if I want to play a different class, not just for a few days.

For high AL and anguish, you can reach crazy numbers quite easily. For low AL, it is still stronger than Dara, but requires much more event gear, knowledge (I know, guides - guilty on that one) , and time for maybe 2(?)x efficiency.

[ivory breach]

I think my highest floor was almost 500 in those 3 runs that made it past the earlier floors

Game says my highest endless floor ever is 541 right now

[stiff marsh]

The statement is not "every t10 summoner has the best gear for endless"

[quartz oriole]

and usually using a high al profile doesn't justify it if most of the players are doing it like you guys, so again is it really broken or just efficient? broken sure if you're 150+ als with high mel you can call it that if u want. Anything is a piece of cake at that stage really, so idk why are we even trying to target high al ppl with it while low al players are just gonna suffer or feel the most of the supposed punish.

[ivory breach]

If I had better event gear, I could probably push further by class/spec switching more.
esp. if I could make statis more consistent for things like baldr gateways, or just stuff that is immune to stun dart in general.

Or more turn reduction gear to make revive a probably 1-turn spell when a mammoth dies

[true bronze]

The statement says gsa is alot better than other classes in endless, should't we nerf other classes too since they're hella lot better than gsa for other contents too?

[quartz oriole]

i mean every single t10 summoner could just use heretic, beo or even deity to fasten up their dungeon clearing speed. Should i call other classes broken for being efficient and strong cus they just have a better passive than this class?

gsa is built like that for snap shotting is 6v1, what can we do about it

[stiff marsh]

That's not my statement either. The whole point of this thread is that anguished endless is busted for summoner

[true bronze]

Yes bc that's only long content in game, where it actually shines

[stiff marsh]

That is factual and y'all keep on trying to derail the thread into "but gsa is weak in other content" "but beo is op in raids" "but getting billions/hr requires ALs and gear"

[quartz oriole]

and when all high al people abused it they suddenly wanna call a nerf on it calling it's too broken after benefiting from it too lol

[true bronze]

There's more important thing to balance than orns from gsa endless

Would't you agree?

[quartz oriole]

true lol

[quick gyro]

Is there anything else in the game that renders an importam part of the game moot after a couple days of investment?

[true bronze]

BeoA raiding, rs mel/despair farming

[quartz oriole]

im just saying that if you can exchange a proof for mats and tou can easily exploit it like ang 50 raids eith stasis cheese. Tou can pretty much earn a lot of proofs with ease. Even enough to farm ga over and over rinse and repeat especially during +1 proof event.

[true bronze]

Rs isn't much problem, since it got competition from heretic and deity, but beoA raiding?

[ivory breach]

I think the bigger point is that people don't want to talk just about endless
since they see summoner as a whole as a class without much else going for it.

The bigger point is

1. Yes, it is super strong, but
2. This is the thing it is the best at while otherwise being sub-par, so people don't wanna see that taken away or nerfed without making it better in other places.

[tight dagger]

The statement was "every T10 player can switch to GS and make more orns then their class with much less effort"

Without event gear you can't do summoner endless, you'd be lucky to make it past floor 200 with basic charmer buffs

While you could just world farm and get orns much easier and faster killing T10 bosses lol

[quartz oriole]

u can get as much orns as tou like but you can't retdo something with it unlike proofs

so why even bother

[stiff marsh]

Do you think other classes don't need event gear or something? Lol

A bare minimum of grinding is needed for endless regardless

[quartz oriole]

oh lord

[twilit pumice]

If you allow only 1 HoC per month, the problem is gone. With AL0 it's fine. Problematic are rather AL100 players, which HoC to GS for a few days.

[true bronze]

Yup, its like making rs bad for horde

[tight dagger]

To farm world bosses? No lol

[quartz oriole]

true

[true bronze]

That was my tought too but few ppl said its bad idea

[stiff marsh]

How does this relate to endless grinding

[twilit pumice]

AL100 players?

[true bronze]

Problem isn't summoner itself but ppl hoccing to it and going back

[quick gyro]

Does any of those make it so you never have to farm one of the components of ascending ever again after playing for a couple of days?

[true bronze]

Al 130 that went on orn farming

[quartz oriole]

like people can easitjust hoc over simply because they farm much faster on other class compared to farming on gs only. They can just go in and out of gs if they wanted to. And even then what good will 15b 20b orns will do? nothing cus u can't exchange it for mats anyways

[stiff marsh]

Need a moderator to come put slowmode on... the amount of people blaming anything but the class that abuses anguish for more power is crazy

[tight dagger]

Cause you'd make more orns as any other class worldfarming

Then a GS with no event gear on endless lol

[ivory breach]

I think more generally every T7-T9 player,
and early T10 players can swap to summoner and immediately be better at almost everything.

Main exception being Beo in raids.
That stuff quickly outshined my summoner with just the non-exotic birdy.
Now with ASG the gap is freaking huge.

[quartz oriole]

need a slow mode here cus someone's getting jump like an endless mob. We need stun dart over here

[quartz oriole]

exactly

[shadow salmon]

I would also put this out, one of the reasons GSA is super good at endless compared to other classes is because of its class identity. If anything happens, it's gonna affect either all of GSA's performance in other contents, or affect endless as a whole for everyone else

[quartz oriole]

true lol

summoner is just built like that

ehy do u guys think its so easy to level up as a noob using gs? because you can out number your enemies and they're just 1.

[stiff marsh]

Literally nobody is saying gs shouldn't be better than other classes

[ivory breach]

Also, I'm still just barely T11 and I've got no idea how long it'll take me to even be able to buy a single HoC lol

I'm gonna need other classes to facilitate that without it taking a long time since I don't get proofs that fast.
Been mostly playing summoner since T7

[quartz oriole]

although this doesn't apply(cus mammons, raids and other stuff) to some asepct but for the most part it does

the same way with gs

on endless

[tight dagger]

Gold is also in that boat

Difference being gold can buy mats and be used for a lot of other things

Orns cannot be used for much besides 1 time purchases and AL

[quick gyro]

First person to ever argue gold > orns in Orna history

[shadow salmon]

But GS is barely any better than other classes, matter of fact isn't endless the only thing it's better at? 😂

[quartz oriole]

class is just built like that, it is its identity as someone said. It can use more orn equipment vus it's not dealing dmg. Unlike with ultima endless orn setups, u kinda jave to let go on some orn equipment

[true bronze]

Barely better? Its not even comperable

[twilit pumice]

No, GS is great in many content!like... Like... Mmhhh... I forgot.

[quartz oriole]

it's good for finding out that there are other classes that can do it much faster than you do

that's why im a beo main now

[shadow salmon]

Ngl my alts are struggling with gold for adorning gear and celestial weapons 😂

[tight dagger]

Gold is just more valuable, and used more so then orns later game

But gold is so easy it's basically "free mats" and shop cycles

Monster remains and everything is bought with gold, some insane items and mat quantities from grand markets

I'm okay if orns is less valuable then gold orns only is used in 1 time purchases and AL for most game content, and 90% of the time your mat locked more so then orn locked

[ivory breach]

To add to this,

part of what makes summoner so good is that it's designed to occupy a full party worth of power.
For solo-only modes this has many benefits (like only having 1/6 attacks target you).

If you could party-mode endless summoner might immediately become irrelevant.

Also, note that in the summoner + deity/hera duo shown much earlier in the thread,
it wasn't actually the summoner doing the damage. It was the Deity/Hera role

[stiff marsh]

Summoner apologist starter pack:

• "GSA is too weak in other content"
• "Orns don't matter anyway"
• "GSA is just naturally good at endless, that's why people HOC to it"

[shadow salmon]

All facts no? 😂

[stiff marsh]

Good joke

[quartz oriole]

At this point it just seems like insecurity to me

we could use other words like hating

cus heretic and deity can't do it much better than gs

[tight dagger]

Well I mean I stated my reasons, no need for these back and fourths

If my words aren't heard then they aren't, I simply just stated the truths of the matter 👍

I'm okay with any outcome NF sees fit, but in time this complaint GS is too good at endless will always repeat itself

[quartz oriole]

and it sucks on how hard it is to play those class cus u can't grind orns

[boreal saddle]

Crappiest class in the game is good at one thing, locals angry.

[twilit pumice]

Before GS endless, I was never even close to orn locked. Yes, I am only AL48 (plus 50 ALs in other classes), so maybe this would suddenly change for high AL because Dara endless will become difficult? 😂

[quartz oriole]

facts

[stiff marsh]

We've all discussed this before, people are just rehashing pointless stuff

[quick gyro]

Being good =/= being absolute game warping

[stiff marsh]

#1449963223724855448 message

[true bronze]

It would be nice to know odie opinion ngl

Someone tag him 🤣

[quartz oriole]

cus you're just circling around and we kept reiterating points so that you would eventually understand but its like talking to a brick wall

[true bronze]

(not me im scared)

[noble flower]

Ngl, Odie hasn’t even addressed this thread yet, so I say we wait for him to actually say something, or we’re all just losing our time here

[stiff marsh]

We will never know with the level of angst going on from Boohoo

[twilit pumice]

Hey, this is an endless discussion. It will not stop 😂

[boreal saddle]

I get to floor 900+ but it takes a few hours, and I'm pretty much guessing the future and one wrong call i get killed.

[quartz oriole]

idk im probably one of the people who doesn't like sugarcoating and talking like a five year old to grown ass men

[boreal saddle]

The summons basically do not help at all at that level, they're just shields at that point

[quartz oriole]

as this guy said ^^

i can keep reiterating points if u would still prefer to just circle back around again

that's just fine by me

i can do this all day

[stiff marsh]

You're the only one resorting to insults and ragebaiting like a 5yo 👍

[ivory breach]

Real question:

Do any other classes to spec/class swapping mid-run like Summoner does?
Or do gear/skill swaps to target specific enemies?

Wondering if other classes do that to stun/stasis specific enemies or have other similar tech.

If nothing else people running something like BeoH might swap to Beo for dragon immunity vs stuff like Nidhogg?

I haven't played other classes in endless yet so I have no idea how they operate there

[stiff marsh]

It depends. Every class can do that to keep going, but most classes accept that death is inevitable - summoner's strength is that it doesn't have to accept that because it can go so much deeper

Corvus endless is constantly pet swapping as part of its strategy

[boreal saddle]

I do a gsh/gsa swap, I was using deity too before they changed it so you couldn't cast darkriftus on your summoner, which kinda was sad

[quartz oriole]

i mean if u have selective reading u can call it that. I've made a lot of points but selective reading goes hard on this one gang.

Sure i may not be kind with my words but doesn't mean I don't actually point out the flaws on your argument

[stiff marsh]

You've made a lot of points that have already been made, and you've made them with arrogance and disdain for no particular reason

Hence why I said it was ragebaiting

And you continue to resort to insults so 🤷‍♂️ point made for me

[quartz oriole]

and yet u kept circling back around to the same exact argument which leads to me circling bakc to the same exact rebuttals so that u would understand eventually

insults arrogance call it whatever u want, doesn't change the fact that it's pointless to bring an entire class down cus u can't farm orns on your own class. That's kinda a dik move to other players dont it? they're literally suckig so jard except endless

and then wanna make it more worse cus they excel at it

seems unfair to me

[stiff marsh]

You are welcome to your opinion, but please stop trying to force it down this thread's throat

We've heard you

[boreal saddle]

🥴

[shadow salmon]

No other class spec swaps mid run like summoners do because no other class has the need/or capability to stack all buffs known to ornakind, and summoners do it because one of their main source of dmg is from their summons.

But if followers had more access to utility/buffs outside of ward and some buffs, then you'd definitely see some more pet swapping in action

[boreal saddle]

*blood pact
The summons will literally do 0 damage on their own the higher you get. Trust me.

[shadow salmon]

Also GSH's second chance is a joke, you live but lose all your source of dmg and survivability (no more meat shields 😂)

[boreal saddle]

THAT has ended a few of my runs. It's worse than just dying

[shadow salmon]

I know DalCais, that's why I said summons are one of their main sources of dmg

[shadow salmon]

Try spec swapping to stasis and then stasis/sleep the mob, and then respec into inquisition/cleric with quickcast 1h celestial and then spam revive haha

Could squeeze a few more orns and floors but would be better to reset I guess

[boreal saddle]

Thing is, i'm swinging at pretty much anything berserk past 500 floors with BP2, 3m+ damage or the occasional miss, which can be devastating. The cockatrice is my petrify gamble and it tends to clutch.

[true bronze]

I do mammoth normal run and keep gsh bp build just for mobs that 0 my summons

[boreal saddle]

Once I get up high, I can't risk taking a smack from anything. Even the dumbest mobs with 1tap you. You have to take your heal breaks on monsters likely to waste their turns

[ivory breach]

How does AL and summon stat gear interact with each other?

Is it all add-ative or do they scale multiplicativly with each other?

[boreal saddle]

AL adds a little but it definitely doesn't feel like it multiplies out of control.

Only on GS and GSA though, which is why you charge hydrus on hydrus, then summon your team on full Summon% GSA

You can add a whole bunch of buffs for damage to your dragons but once you start getting to 200+ that damage isn't as important as having them defensive, from my experience.

[true bronze]

Idk, i usually don't give a single turns to mobs untill like f600+, and with provokes, i never get hit

[twilit pumice]

Yes, it is AL multiplicative

[boreal saddle]

I might try running them with ward of ortanite to see if it keeps them alive longer but theyll lose 15% summon stats

[ivory breach]

oh, so if your AL is high enough you actually out-scale the anguish growth then?

since you can get another 15% per anguish level from gear and 1.33 * 15 ~= 20
I think it'd be around AL 33-34 that you start to keep pace,
and past that you'd be scaling more than +20% summon stats per melancholy level while the melancholy level only adds +20% to the stats?

[stiff marsh]

Correct, that's one of the main issues I said was a problem in this thread. Also you nsturally get 10% OT bonus that acts as 10 ALs so AL 24 is the breakpoint

You get deeper depth before being 0'd out with higher anguish. It's dumb

[twilit pumice]

It is even more. With AL33, your get: 1.15x1.33=1.53

[ivory breach]

I thought the + summon stat stuff was addative?

So it's another 0.15 *1.33 = 0.1955 per level

Ward % is the only gear stat I'm aware of that actually stacks multiplicitively

With other gear giving the same type of bonus

[stiff marsh]

Some stuff stacks multiplicatively, like crit dmg augments

[ivory breach]

oh right

forgot about those

[stiff marsh]

I got the same numbers you did when trying to figure out how many ALs were needed, but I accounted for OT bonus

[twilit pumice]

Here you can see mammoth hp with my gear

[stiff marsh]

I would expect the anguish bonus of summon stats to add to the gear's base stats

Are all of those additive

[ivory breach]

How do other classes scale with AL?

Does AL multiply the stats you would have from your gear, or just base stats?

[stiff marsh]

AL always multiplies your stats, which is combined base stats and gear and adorns

[twilit pumice]

Yes, everything is additive, except AL is multiplicative to the final value

[ivory breach]

So then with high enough AL, all classes would eventually start to out-scale the anguish stats?

Just with summoners it happens much quicker?

[stiff marsh]

No, because gear stats aren't "3% to all your stats"

[twilit pumice]

No, because the 3% bonus is just die the value of the item, not the total stats of the char

[stiff marsh]

Also, the anguish bonus is not AL multiplicative

[ivory breach]

oh, so the stats from anguish (e.g. magic damage) gets added after AL is calculated?

[stiff marsh]

If my gear has 500 def base and 10 anguish levels, the red stat will show 650 def. This is a lie; only 500 gets multiplied by AL, the rest is a flat addition to the top

[ivory breach]

so it's something like

(gear + level stats) * AL + anguish_level * bonus

not

(gear + level stats + anguish_level * bonus) * AL

?

for stuff like magic/attack/etc

[stiff marsh]

I guess so

Adornments are also different, I think they just don't scale with anguish or something, I don't remember

[twilit pumice]

That's why I mentiond 1500 messages above that maybe anguish bonus for summon stats should be AL additive instead of multiplicative 🤷

[ivory breach]

so adornments would scale with AL but not anguish it sounds like

[ivory breach]

Yeah, this scaling on the summons seems like a mathematical oversight.

Having it be addative would at least make it not become stronger the more anguish you have

[twilit pumice]

Additive stats would solve that endless gets easier for higher anguish. But I don't know how it would feel for all other content.

[ivory breach]

yeah

The GSA playstyle is already pretty clunky outside of endless

and for me was easily out-performed by BeoA in raids shortly after entering T10

without needing any event gear/pets

And now that I've got BL2, I'm swapping over to using BeoH for horde dungeons

Was already using RS for world farming

[twilit pumice]

I know. I was gs main a while ago... Quite slow. But I still want to try the new gsh if some problems got fixed

[ivory breach]

might swap to BeoH for that too

[true bronze]

I think rsd/heretic is best for wf

For wf/dgs

[ivory breach]

I've tried it a tiny bit, but I think I need better gear and more ALs to make it competitive with BeoA

[twilit pumice]

I guess can be better than beoA, but not than beoh

But I like the Playstyle

[ivory breach]

Might try that at some point then.

My big limiter on non-pet classes has been gear.

RS helps get around that some by redlining and swash spec.

Summoner/BeoA get around that by essentially automatically having Ornate gear as far as damage is concerned.

[boreal saddle]

Unfortunately just damage doesn't get that far

[ivory breach]

With this being the case,

having a -summon stat % malus forced every now and then in melancholy specifically would actually be a way to reign in the scaling to dip back below the scaling from anguish levels.
and also wouldn't touch other content types at least.
edit: the malus would need to be its own multiplier like ALs

You could still get to a point where you were out-scaling, but would need more ALs to start doing so again if you raised your anguish level.
Wouldn't just get to AL 24 and be out-scaling with the OT bonus forever

[tight dagger]

That would kill GSA outside of endless though by a major difference

[stiff marsh]

This hyperbole is not helpful baldrice

[tight dagger]

It's simply true

Take away summon stats AL from being a multi scaler to additive and summons become MUCH weaker in anguish content, even base game content

It would help endless but further decrease playability outside of it, which is something we should also consider

The goal should be to nerf endless

Not to beat a dead horse down further in all content because of endless

[twilit pumice]

I believe you. But the main problem for endless is that higher anguish means that you get deeper because summon Stats grow faster than enemy stats.
At least for most proposed changes.

[ivory breach]

So if we had melancholy-exclusive malus forced at regular intervals that resulted in a formula something like

(BASE + sum_of_%_stat + anguish_level * 0.15) * (1 + AL%) * (0.99^number_of_summon_maluses)

That would fix the math so that you would need to keep getting ALs to start out-scaling at further and further levels.

[twilit pumice]

But not killing summoner is definitely more important than reducing orn income in endless

[tight dagger]

Wouldn't the simplest answer be nerf endless gains?

No orns scaler, and make dungeon orns rewards MUCH less then it currently is, so it requires a MUCH further floor count to reach to to even get normal orn income from a mob

Like around 1k floors you'd be at even world boss levels

2k floors you'd start to make profit

So then orn income is MUCH harder for summoners while also not nerfing it's core gameplay

[stiff marsh]

Nerf endless gains for everyone because summoner gets stronger with anguish?

[ivory breach]

Just nerfing endless gains would make the summoner problem even worse.
You'd actually be forced to use summoner or make no orns if nerfed enough.

Right now it seems like other classes can at least get enough orns for whatever they need?

[tight dagger]

Nerf gains for everyone cause orns gains from endless is the problem lol

On that note other classes can world farm much faster then summoners can

[ivory breach]

just it's much easier for summoners

[stiff marsh]

Is world farming bosses an HoA thing

[ivory breach]

I think so

I think in HoA world bosses respawn endlessly?

[tight dagger]

You'd do endless for the achievement orns as other classes, then proceed to world farm as the best option

While summoners would have to spend hours in endless content to even reach world farming orn income

[ivory breach]

haven't actually played but think i heard that somewhere before

[tight dagger]

Both platforms thing but better on HOA cause dedicated spawns lol

[quick gyro]

This is 7 dungeons worth of work. I’ll let you guys reach your own conclusions

[stiff marsh]

World farming is not a source of orns in Orna. Goblin fortresses are better than world farming for reference

[quick gyro]

I’m literally never touching endless again, and if you think that’s okay there’s nothing else I can say

[ivory breach]

In orna world farming hasn't seemd too worth it since bosses take hours to respawn,
and mobs don't seem to give much.

Only place it might be viable is if you're a passenger with someone driving?

[tight dagger]

Ang 1.0 users never had to touch endless in the first place for orns 👍

[quick gyro]

Objectively false lol

[ivory breach]

Interesting.
In Orna I feel like Endless is the only really good source of Orns currently.

[tight dagger]

Depends on platform, but I do digress on that topic

[jaunty estuary]

(Not for HoA fwiw)

[stiff marsh]

Thanks for the datapoint Bordoadas. People will try to explain stuff like this as "only high AL" and ignore that it can apply to AL 0 as long as they can boost their anguish

[quick gyro]

I’m in the orna discord, I assume any discussion is in relation to it

[tight dagger]

That may be a orna exclusive problem then 🤔 and maybe a solution to that would be to increase boss spawns and instances

[jaunty estuary]

I know the feeling. But as it stands both games are intrinsically related, changes in one affect the other, and the HoA community is also always welcome in discussions that are going to affect their game

[quick gyro]

If the games are balanced differently when it comes to the economy, maybe we should be looking at game-specific changes then. All my points in this thread have been orna-related, since I have no idea how HoA works 😅

[tight dagger]

0AL summoners aren't making 15 bil orns per run lol

On that note of anguishing gear, it means nothing if you can't properly buff your summons, even if they can't 0 on an enemy doesn't mean that they will kill it either

We would be blowing gs way out of portion to make statements like

"Any GS 0AL can do endless, no event gear required, just anguish 20 and up summon stats gear"

Points mainly being we should nerf endless exclusively, I'd even be okay if you disabled anguish from endless

But nerfing summoner in all content because of endless would be silly

[stiff marsh]

But AL 0 summoners are able to abuse anguish to make way more than other classes at 100 ALs

Anguish endless is busted for all AL levels

[tight dagger]

With a lot of effort and event exclusive stuff

If anguish is the main problem/scaler of summons then I would rather endless not be able to be done with anguish on

That puts everyone back at a even field

[untold thorn]

If they have high melancholy and high anguish summoner gear, yes

But I’m guessing if we got data on average melancholy of summoner mains it would be pretty darn low compared to other classes

Meaning it is far more likely the majority of people using this are actually other classes with the high melancholy and anguished gear swapping to summoner to use it

That doesn’t mean it isn’t an issue -> Melancholy anguish getting easier if you survive buffing the higher anguish you go is an issue that requires something to change

But is it an issue that requires an immediate huge fix? I’m not so sure. Especially based on how few voices are actually here discussing

[noble flower]

It's already been talked about, but that AL0 summoner would have to be omega stacked in order to have a high mel level and equally high summon stats gear

Because the way it's been said sounds as if any random AL0 GS was making more orns than any +100AL RS, Heretic, Deity and all

Ofc it's possible, but it's something that very few players can actually do

[stiff marsh]

The fact that it's possible matters more than the fact that people don't

[noble flower]

#1449963223724855448 message

Yeah, just do this and it should be fine

It's the proposal I've liked the most, of all the ones I've seen

[tight dagger]

I would also be okay with turning anguish content off for endless

That in itself would be fine

[noble flower]

Yeah, it's balanced and an endless only restriction

Plus it's also the only reason why those players who HoC and those stacked 0AL GS are doing so well, since they can just shoot their anguish up and use giga stacked mammoths

[untold thorn]

Or if people didn’t like turning it off completely as some of the passives do help other classes a lot, lock it at 4 or 5

You can get to shackles with a bit of pet/summon boost if you so desire but that’s the end of it

My vote would be 5 so people can go AL supreme mode if they want while Anguish 5 Shackled races could become a fun event to run here and there

[quartz oriole]

yep my beoA will

hey guys let's make summoner al additive instead of multiplicative. Why? oh cus it out scales anguish enemies eventually at al 150+ cus all of the player base are al 150+.

proceeds to blast through other content as beoH

[quartz oriole]

i mwan that's fine we can farm as much as we can then we ask a nerf for it

just make sure that everyone else won't get as much as we did am i right?

[quartz oriole]

after reading thoroughly I think gsa is much better off with additive stats from al instead of multiplicative it's just too broken I'm sorry.

[tight dagger]

This is a pretty balanced and tame solution

Brings everyone back to the same lvls and doesn't effect summoner outside of endless

I would even be okay with leaving anguish on for all classes but summoner for endless, as long as it doesn't effect summoner outside of endless 👍 ( sorry for the ping )

[untold thorn]

Alright slowmode is on-

Here is what I’ve got:

Concern: GSA can perform significantly better than other classes at Anguished Endless and gets stronger the further into Melancholy they go

Concern2: Anguish is what broke GSA but the class is not as strong at most other content. A nerf to its Endless affects low AL players disproportionately and may ruin the class.

Additional Points:
-> Gear allowing this is largely event based
-> Summon stats and Ascensions allow Summons to outscale enemies
-> Using this requires high Melancholy and related summoner gear which is more likely acquired by other classes doing anguished content faster
-> For those that can use, this further invalidates Orn farming and endless records

Proposed Solutions:

1. Turn off anguished Endless or limit it to low Melancholy =<5
2. Make summon stats additive instead of multiplicative
3. Add in additional AoE enemies, status resistance/immunities or generally make endless more difficult in anguished/deeper endless
4. Make maluses and gear affect summons or redesign Anguish maluses as a whole

[untold thorn]

@stiff marsh @noble flower @tight dagger @quartz oriole Am I missing anything here? Just trying to condense the conversation

[stiff marsh]

I guess for point 4, add that an anguish malus giving -summons/follower stats might help

One of the issues should mention that summons are unaffected by most maluses

[noble flower]

Not really, since it's only a problem in endless, really. And outside of endless it's lacking, even with the mult summon stats and the anguished gear

[noble flower]

No, I would say that's pretty much it, although for 2 it'll affect every other aspect of the gameplay, as I mentioned on the message right above this one

[untold thorn]

Yeah I think 2-4 would all affect summoner outside of endless

[noble flower]

Yeah, although 4 probably wouldn't be as bad, but it'll depend on what's done there. And still, just with 1 or disabling anguished summon stats as a whole in endless it should be enough.

[shadow salmon]

Not anymore, not with scaling HP stats, but it used to be yea

[quartz oriole]

still a thing for some as not everybody in hoa does endless, cus they're also pushing and farming despair as well

[tight dagger]

Well If you were ang 1.0 still, it would be, considering you could get 8 mil per boss and kill 400 bosses per hour, that was 3.2 bil orns per hour

With the current despair farming yeah it's a lot harder cause you need to have insane AL to do it lol, but it actually gives more orns per boss, but much less boss kills per hour

[noble flower]

Dang

[quartz oriole]

so you can still pretty much do world farming in hoa It's just challenging than it used to be. That's why people from hoa are trying to learn endless for quite some time now, cus most of the player base were so not into endless and now that endless is like meta. They either adapt and learn or just try to make world farming work. Not every one are into endless hence why there are still players doing world farming despite having endless meta.

[tight dagger]

One crazy person actually averaged 20 mil orns per boss on ang 1.0 ( the chances of having BIS farming gear like that and all the orns buffs aligned are a unfair matching for comparison )

The orns worldfarming was insanely better then endless for us, on that note, it still is depending what's actually available to you and how much time you have to commit mass boss murder XD, we just had a boss limit spawn buff for world farming so it's actually better now, despair scaling is kinda insane though but worldfarming did make orns farming trivial, still kinda does for us

[shadow salmon]

: Scaling orn rewards relative to one's AL > low ALs = low orns (like AL0 can only earn up to 750k max orns per kill, and AL50 can earn up to 1mln orns per kill etc)

[untold thorn]

That discourages other classes from trying to go deeper at low ALs and has a much larger effect on Endless as a whole

[shadow salmon]

One main concern I see was that apparently even at low ALs (as low as AL0 even) summoners could still out scale anguish scaling thanks to demonworked summoning gear . This fixes that so that people actually have to invest effort and ALs to get more out of it.

Remember, Odie said AL0 beo "farming ang50 for orns" was unanticipated and thus nerfed somewhat. Low ALs shouldn't be expected to reap big rewards

[shadow salmon]

Also, what are low ALs gonna do with all those orns anyways? Build towers? Okay but there's a cap of 5 and wild towers to compensate somewhat. And then what? Capping orn gains would mean either people HoC (more money for NF? Yippie) for high AL summoners, or they'd have to spend more time doing endless

[ivory breach]

It doesn't actually out-scale anguish without 24-34 ALs currently
(24 with origin town bonus, 34 without).

Anguish is +20% each level (addative)
Summons is +15% each level (addative)

so it is quite close at AL 0,
but unless there's some other hidden math boosting elsewhere not actually out-scaling.

[shadow salmon]

Pro-nerf voices seem to imply that regardless of ALs, summon scaling gear cancels out scaling anguish mobs hence the suggestions of reducing summon scaling

[quartz oriole]

but then again that's only for non horde only which is endless. Dungeons are rough for summoners cus mammons are there to humble them. From what i can see it's a challenge for summoners to do mel with pure summons only not underperforming but not exceptionally well as well. And summoners can't outscale anguish that fast cus they tend to suck around mid game which slows down everything. But i see the point you're saying, it's just that it'll take a huge al investment to outscale anguish stats of enemies. Additives won't do much compared to als as it's not easy to grind for a summoner to ang 30 or 40. Probably with bp its easy cus its quad scale. No summoner can just farm anguish that high as it would need a spread al invest to meet al requirement per level. But I do see the point of a 0 al gs being able to just do a bare minimum floor level thanks to high anguish. So probably orn income relative to als might do something here to balance that out.

But gs would still earn more nonetheless due tonthe fact that it'll always go deeper than the other classes just because it's the best class for that category (endless) it's essentially a full party army.

[twilit pumice]

The breaking point is already at 5 AL: 1.15 x 1.05 > 1.2, as summon Stats are AL multiplicative

[ivory breach]

Your own math is not consistent with ^^

edit: maybe I'm bad at math.
Making a spreadsheet

[tight dagger]

Option 1 here solves the anguish gear scaling problem imo for summons at least

[twilit pumice]

Regarding 1): I think the original proposal - and preferred by me over the current proposal - was to remove (or reduce) summon Stats from anguished gear for endless (only).

That's very different from not allowing anguished endless, e.g. regarding orn bonus, enemy stats etc. Higher anguish would at least allow to make content more difficult but more rewarding (per floor). (also considering the current had design of endless hard mode, where you get maybe 30% orns, not 50%, in 50% of time).

[pearl marten]

Just side note. Any adjustments to anguished summonstats hard nerf eos replica and few others ( which are already behind in power compared to some other pets)

[true bronze]

Can anyone make quick summary about all the points from both sides? As of naw, they mostly just keep repeating, sometimes with more agression, nothing can happen without odie decision. Is tagging odie/getting his opinion possible?

[pearl marten]

Anguished summon stats allows bit more flexibility to building for eos replica bc now you are not that hard locked to summon stat gear, so i would not want to remove that flexibility.

[tidal wyvern]

Glad we finally agree on smth. Also I mentinoned this several times here.😅

[tidal wyvern]

Erdrick is ORN member, he is making short sum up for odie/team. Thats why he pinged you. Thats why he wrote that post.

[true bronze]

Oh i didn't see that, alr 👍

[pearl marten]

That would be good solution without affecting anything else

[tight dagger]

I apologize for not seeing this specific statement 🙏 I am happy to agree on it though

[ivory breach]

Can you check my math?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DwsXoMJWXoRwpGV42IuYQXM5izRG5gSRra9B2s7QfLY/edit?usp=sharing

I'm using your formula, and it actually gets weirder I think due to the flat bonuses summoner starts with.

If my math is right,
the short version is:

You actually have to get unreasonably high anguish/AL to start out-scaling anguish via gear anguish levels
since summoner starts with such a big bonus.

Basically,
Summoners stats grow relatively slower due starting with a +500% bonus from gear/specialization/class.

So the first +20% for enemies is actually a 20% increase (from 100% -> 120%)
For summons, it's only about a 2.4% increase (from 609% -> 624%)

Though again, this feels kinda wrong
so please check my math

[untold thorn]

@true bronze

[tidal wyvern]

Next problem is that enemy stats from anguish and endless floors are additive. Don't have numbers on me rn, but f600 enemy stats on ang 0 is like ~1200%. With mel 20 it will be ~1600% while orn bonus is way over 100%.

(making then multiplicative is also one of solution - but that would make almost any ang runs immpossible 😅 )

[ivory breach]

Right.
Updated my spreadsheet to have some extra info with Orns in there specifically.

So then for AL 0 (and actually, all levels of AL),
starting at anguish 11
The ratio of (summon_stats_gained * orn_bonus_multiplier) / total_enemy_stats_percent starts going back positive.

Though it does not reach the same ratio of Anguish 1 until you get all the way up to Anguish 26

[pearl marten]

Thats right bc its same situation for beo aswell.

[ivory breach]

I will note that in principal,
higher anguish always resulting in better orn efficiency is not unique to summoner.

Importantly, the better orn efficiency is mathematically independent of ascension level.

in principal all classes would gain more orns more efficiently at AL 0 simply by raising the anguish level if you ignore maluses

However, in the context of maluses not really hitting summoner,
I think that's the actual difference here.

I know this has already been said,
but I think we now have more rigorous math to show that it's not actually the anguish power scaling that is mathematically special about summoner,
and instead the fact that they have no maluses.

If there were no maluses, then all classes damage would scale like summoner (and BeoA) is scaling right now.

[shadow salmon]

Also whatever power summons get per anguish, applies to 5 of them so that's even bigger. Other classes' bonuses only apply once, to themselves, but with summoners that's 5x the power

[ivory breach]

The number of summons a summoner can make doesn't change with anguish level,
so that's not really relevant.

5 -> 5 * 1.15
and
1 -> 1 * 1.15

is still a 15% increase either way.

If anguish increased the summon cap, then it would be relevant.

Similarly,

Deity gets access to other multipliers from temporary stat buffs (e.g. T. atk++ and T. atk+++ for deity) that summoner doesn't really get access to.

But since those numbers don't change with Anguish level, they aren't relevant to overall ratios of scaling patterns.

[twilit pumice]

I think I have to be on my pc for that 😂

[tidal wyvern]

in principal all classes would gain more orns more efficiently at AL 0 simply by raising the anguish level if you ignore maluses
that being said for AL0, but when ang stats of gear is just simply additive and not multiplicative with AL, it gets worse with added ALs for other class vs summoner on top of maluses

so there are several layers

• no maluses for summons
• equip ang stats × AL multiplicative for summons
• endless stats being additive with ang stats

[twilit pumice]

Your math looks in principle correct, but I think your conclusion is still wrong. I think the problem is as follows: You calculated enemy stats and summon stats for floor 1 - here, it is indeed getting harder for higher anguish. Enemy stats have, however, additive scaling with higher floors: LP = ang%/100 + 1* ((1+ floor-1) * 2%). Stated differently, not only summon stats but also enemy stats have a flat stat increase - which can even be higher for enemies than for summons. For example, with ang1, enemy stats on F200 are 518%, so you have more or less the same "base value" for enemy stats vs. summon stats. Thus, on F200 with AL 5 you already have additive 20% enemy stats vs. 15%x1.05 summon stats increase, so roughly the equal increase, and higher increase for higher AL. And the higher the floor, the higher the relative increase gets. Does this make sense? @ivory breach

[twilit pumice]

@ivory breach If you are interested in calculating endless orn efficiency, you may also find this spreadsheet helpful (warning: my formulas are not cross-checked 😉 )

[boreal saddle]

Heck yeah, berserk farming up at Olympia, it's crazy fast.

[ivory breach]

I think so.
I'll have to take a closer look when I'm off work

[ivory breach]

Yeah, changing my stuff to calculate at floor 500 specifically,
It does show summoner actually getting relatively stronger with anguish (instead of weaker) even at AL 0.

Seems like this trend starts around floor 357, and is unaffected by AL.
for all ALs I test (0, 4, 24, 34, 200) it goes from negative ratio trend to positive from floor 356 -> 357

So I guess earlier floors would be harder, but any runs getting past those would be relatively easier.

Though I'd think we would need to do a similar calculation for other classes and the anguish stats to see when this would also be true for them.

I expect this trend of earlier floors being relatively harder, but later floors being relatively easier could also hold true for other classes.

The main difference partly being how many buffs the other classes can stack to help them reach those floors easier,
and how able they are to sustain and recover from taking a hit (or missing an attack).

One of the bigger advantages of summoner is the amount of redundancy you have when you get to make 5 attacks each turn.

[stiff marsh]

This does not sound correct since neither the player or summons gains power with depth

What kind of math are you doing where summon or player stats grow with depth?

[ivory breach]

The strength isn't increasing with depth,
the relative strength compared to lower anguish level is increasing.

It's part of the bigger discussion about how at low anguish +20% is actually a +20% increase,
but later on the +20% becomes relatively lower compared to the previous increase since the bonuses are addative

similarly,
when you go from floor 1 -> 2 the +2% increase in their stats is pretty close to being an actual 2% increase
but at floor 500, +2% is more like a 0.18% increase in the actual stats relative to floor 499

I could explain this better if I had more time, but I gotta go.
If you look over some of my previous back and forth with Richard79 you may get a better understanding of what we're talking about.

[stiff marsh]

Just to make sure we're on the same page though - endless floor scaling is not multiplicative with anguish stat scaling. The anguish enemy stat increase is a flat addition to enemy stats.

So sure, at floor 1 enemy stats will be "relatively stronger" with higher anguish levels, but summon stats will also be stronger from floor 1. Your distinction of relative difficulty at higher floors is not the reason why summoner anguish is broken - it's because summon stats grow higher than enemy stats per anguish level at floor 1

[ivory breach]

Yeah, we agree the scaling is not multiplicative.

The formula is basically (in percentages)
Enemy Stat Multiplier = (100 + 20*melancholy_level + 2*floor_number)

Relatively stronger is the important distinction though.
every class gets some scaling for anguish levels so every classes stats will be "stronger from floor 1".
What matters is how much stronger the player gets relative to how much stronger the enemies get.

it's because summon stats grow higher than enemy stats per anguish level at floor 1
Then please show me where my math is wrong then,
or present work of your own.
My work/math suggests it is relatively harder until floor 357, and then gets relatively easier past that as the anguish level increases.

Richard79 looked over my work,
agreed that floor 1 gets relatively harder for the summoner,
and then pointed out that the same does not hold true for higher floors.

I then adjusted my computations for higher floors and it confirmed what he said.
I would love to see some hard numbers to support your assertion, but so far my math suggests otherwise and it feels weird.

[stiff marsh]

You're comparing apples to oranges somehow. At each anguish level, summons gain 15% summon stats multiplied by the summoner's ALs. At around 34 ALs (24 with OT bonus) that is greater than 20% stats.

So as you gain anguish levels, you gain more power than enemies do. No other class does this except for Beo

[tidal wyvern]

He is not rating how floors are getting harder, but rather take specific floor and different melancholy level at that floor and comparing that. That with melancholy levels summons stats grows faster than enemies relatively as it is additive - basically what we are saying since the begin. The build of that table is a bit skewed in my eyes as there is only single floro rated against previous floor. 😄

[ivory breach]

To make things simple for this example,
I am going to use HP as the main measure of stats.

Lets say floor 1 enemy at 0 anguish has 100 HP.
My summon has 28000 HP base since it is a bone mammoth.
My base extra multipliers are about +509% since I've got good gear/amity so my mammoth's HP at 0 anguish is actually 170520 HP

If we go from anguish 0 to anguish 1 we have

enemy 100 -> 120
mammoth 170520 -> 174720

Mammoth has gotten +4200 stats, so it's broken right?
Enemy only got +20 stats
4200 > 20 right?

What if enemy on first floor actually has 25000 HP base.
Then bone mammoth only gains 4200 while enemy gains 5000 stats.
4200 < 5000
So summoner is getting out-scaled right?

In both cases, the % increase was the same.

• 15% for summoner, and +20% for enemy.
  But in case 1, summoner out-scales
  but in case 2, enemy out-scales.

This is why I say the relative percent increase is what matters here.
You could find the same examples for non-summoner classes using the +3% increases on their weapon/armor damage.
But if we look at the relative percent increase it is the same in both cases.
20% for the enemy, and 2.5% increase for the summoner

[ivory breach]

The build of that table is a bit skewed in my eyes as there is only single floro rated against previous floor.
Not quite.

I'm comparing the same floor but at different anguish levels.
At the time of me writing this message it's all floor 1, but at different anguish levels.

If you copy and edit cell J1 you can change which floor is being looked at.

[stiff marsh]

There's a lot that's wrong here tbh. Nobody's looking at the raw stats, we are looking at the percentages. But that's not "relative increase".

The mammoth would not gain only 4200hp from one anguish level assuming you have any ALs at all. ALs would multiply that 15%

And no, the outscaling does not change based on the base stats. That's not what it means; outscaling is about the % increase (what you are calling relative increase)

Also, other classes don't get nearly as many stats as this. The 3% increase on a single item is:

• Only on that item's stats (like mag and mana for example)
• A flat addition to the stats page, and is not multiplied by AL
• Not even affected by adornments

Then for this bit,

20% for the enemy, and 2.5% increase for the summoner
Here you are comparing the additive increase for enemy - flat 20% - to the true relative increase for summoner - flat 20% divided by the total increase already gained (4200 / 170520)

[ivory breach]

The actual effective increase in power totally matters.

To give a more extreme example,

if summoner baseline was the same stat (~170k hp for bone mammoth) but the non-anguish bonuses are +10000% that +15% is even less powerful since you're going from 10000% -> 100015%
the value of the "+15%" is highly dependent on the baseline % bonus because the bonuses are addative and not multiplicative
609% -> 624% is a much bigger increase in power than 10000% -> 10015%

If the bonuses were multiplicative you would be right that going up a few ALs would cause it to out-pace at floor 1,
but that just isn't the case.

Here you are comparing the additive increase for enemy - flat 20% - to the true relative increase for summoner - flat 20% divided by the total increase already gained (4200 / 170520)
At floor 1, the addative increase is equal to the percent increase because it starts at 100%

My whole point is that at floor 1 specifically (and lower floors in general) that additive bonus to enemies is much more effective than the summoner bonus
because the enemies start at 100% stats instead of 609% like the summoner's pets

[tidal wyvern]

Yea, sorry. To previous anguish. Result of "summon power outscacle enemy growth with higer floors" is just wrong conclusion? You should compare also those floor to floor. As F1 to F500 stats are 1100% (or 1500% at ang20) tho summoner are still same not moving, they are 609% (or 909%) for both F1 and F500. Saying that at F500 summoner anguish relative growth is faster is misleading, as it is static.

[stiff marsh]

Enemies start at (100 + 20 * melancholy_level), not 100%

[ivory breach]

when melancholy_level = 0 that equation is 100%

[stiff marsh]

But that's not what we are discussing? We are discussing floor 1 at higher anguish levels

[tidal wyvern]

That was just example for his table and how it works, did you open it? 😄

[ivory breach]

We're talking about growth in power as a function of anguish level
which is why I'm comparing the same floor, but different anguish levels in my spreadsheet.

At a specific anguish level, the summoners stats don't change from floor to floor which is why I don't show that.

Past floor 357 it is faster though (unless my math is wrong).

At floor 357

Monsters have a 8.34 multiplier at anguish 1, and 8.54 multiplier at anguish 2.
So a 8.54 / 8.34 = 1.02398081535 effective multiplier on enemy stats going from anguish 1 to 2

0 AL summoner goes from a 6.24 -> 6.39 multiplier or
6.39 / 6.24 = 1.02403846154 multiplier on their stats from anguish 1 to 2

At floor 1, the multiplier on stats for summoner is unchanged
but the enemy does have different multipliers (1.2 -> 1.4) which is effectively a 1.166666... multiplier

So at floor 1, the enemies effectifly have a 1.1666 multiplier on their stats applied going from anguish 1 -> 2
but a 1.0239 once you get to floor 357 when going from anguish 1 -> 2
Summoner is a 1.240 multiplier the entire time from anguish 1 -> 2 so it doesn't out-pace the floor scaling till later.

[stiff marsh]

I had not opened it, found it above. First glance - the formula adds 1 to the total summon stats

[ivory breach]

You know that 1 is the base of 100% for the base stats right?

This is a pretty standard way to do this kind of math.

[tidal wyvern]

I got the table and values in it. Just the part and your conclusion, which is coming from "ratio & change in ratio" based sololy on single floor and changing anguish, is misleading and don't tell you anything. You not care about enemy stats at F10 000 being 20 000%, you are just saying "ang level gear for outscale enemy in that floor". Which is ...eh?

[stiff marsh]

You already have 220 as the summoner base%, is that not the baseline? So baseline is actually 320%?

Confusing notation to list baseline separate if so. Just list summoner as 320% since that's the real value compared to other classes

[tidal wyvern]

(yes....other classes has value "-90%", so it is "1 - 0.9 + gear")

[ivory breach]

I have renamed it to GSA bonus to be clearer

[stiff marsh]

Let's define something here. What do you consider to be outscaling and why does it matter?

[ivory breach]

It does care about the enemy stats being 20000 at floor 10000 though if you set it to floor 10000

The main starting point of this thread is "summoner out-scales endless enemies as anguish level rises"
Or in other words, it actually becomes easier to kill enemies as a summoner as you crank up your anguish level.

My math is showing that that statement is true starting at floor 357,
but that it is actually not true until then

If your enemy gets a 1.16 multiplier on their stats, but you only got a 1.02 multiplier
that fight is harder since 1.16 > 1.02

If your enemy gets a 1.01 multiplier on their stats, and you get a 1.02 multiplier
that fight is easier since 1.01 < 1.02

edit: importantly, the actual multiplier is hard to calculate since the increases are expressed in an addative way instead of multiplicative

[tidal wyvern]

It does care about the enemy stats being 20000 at floor 10000 though if you set it to floor 10000
Well I did, that's why I'm saying AL0 summoner anguish stats outscaling enemy at floor 10 000. It is similar with your floor 357. Is this information any good actually?

(trying to push it to absurd numbers, to show you that comparison you are doing is skewed and don't give you anything)

[ivory breach]

The main thing for me is that many people thought the out-scaling happened from floor 1,
and that that is mathematically untrue.

That being the case,
people might think that there actually isn't a point where summoner out-scales since it does not happen at floor 1
but this is also untrue.

The main point then is that summoner actually flips from not out-scaling to actually out-scaling at a point.

or in other words (assuming my math is right):
People were partly right, but for the wrong reasons
but eventually summoner does start to out-scale

edit: and importantly, at a very reachable floor (357).
Other classes will in-theory also out-scale eventually, but the breakpoint is probably somewhere past floor 2000 at minimum,
and likely much much farther than due to the much lower scaling from anguish and having meaningful maluses.
It would not suprise me if the breakpoing for non-beo/summoner classes was more like floor 100000 which in practice would mean they never get to the breakpoint

[tidal wyvern]

So, one more time, it doesn't matter what anguish (if 1 or 1000), doesn't matter what AL (if 0 or 1000), you "outscale" enemy at floor 357.

So yea, AL1000 (or million AL) summoner, angXY (0 or 1 or 100) doesn't outscale enemy at floor 1. Who cares if enemy stats at ang0 are 100% and GSA summons stats are 6699% (and his own are crazy high too). 🙃

Yet again, this outscale you are comparing tell me completely nothing about the gameplay. You just compare relative growth, but nothing else. This is wrong comparison. You get nothing from it. It doesn't make AL0 angXY GSA endless "easier/harder" after floor 357 or anything else. It is just breaking point for math numbers which give you nothing.

[pearl marten]

Add mammon into endless roster and gs will become weakest endless class

[tidal wyvern]

Umm, why? Mammon will get his turn when GS will be in so high floor any other class can't even reach. 🤷‍♂️

[pearl marten]

The point is that no matter when the gs encounters the mammom it will be morelikely run ender

[tidal wyvern]

Again, why? Like that it will survive 6 mammoth attacks "no matter when"? It will need some high HP to survive that. Again, till higher floors. And most likely till floors which no other classes can reach.

Not to mention his massive HP and fairly high attack would bring other classes down too.

[pearl marten]

6 mammoth attacks wont kill mammon with mel stats+endless stats. But tbh endless should have godaura mobs

[tidal wyvern]

And yet again, question reamain, at which floor? Like, mammoth don't kill floor 10 mammon with 300k HP? IDK how about other, but my mammoth hit for milion+.

[pearl marten]

Idk where you got the 300k but i have seen mammons with almost 1m hp

[jaunty estuary]

At my level, monsters with roughly 2 million health are pretty scary, because all it takes is one or two mammoths being stupid, or missing. Mammon is stun immune, too.
It takes plenty of floors for an Arisen Finfolk to reach that level, but mammon would do it pretty quick

[jaunty estuary]

Wait, is this still true past Anguish25?
I was under the impression it started increasing exponentially after that

I don't have mel25, but agony35 is already giving +51% stats, which is significantly higher than the original increase of +18%

[twilit pumice]

Zerk Mammon on F500 would have 5 million hp (plus anguish stats!) - maybe with your AL this is possible, but that's way too much for me 😅
So yes, it would likely stop GS endless runs. But not only GS...

[pearl marten]

Most classess run quite heavy ultima build which could potentially oneshot mammon. Tho i dont know much about other classess endless stuff.

[twilit pumice]

The discussion of enemy vs player stat increase from increasing anguish and for low vs high floors is quite important from my perspective.

Anguish summon stat bonus of 15% per level sounds like a lot, but this means only an increase from around 600% to 615% summon Stats, so around 2.5% relative increase (and slightly less for higher anguish).

Thus, the stat bonus per anguish level seems not to be too different from 3% of other classes (but of course w/o bonus or malus from amities and/or anguish path) .

The main difference seems to be that anguish gear bonus is AL multiplicative for summons, which is (I think) not the case for other classes, right?

Regarding reduced difficulty for higher anguish: I think this is simply a result of <2.5% enemy stat increase (per anguish level) for higher floors (>400 as 20%/(400x2%)=2.5%?), which is less than player/summon stat increase. But this should be the same for all classes.

Or did I forget something? (currently just on the phone - w/o example calculations in excel, it easily happens to forget something... 😅)

[tidal wyvern]

Right. No? Mammoths dmg >> Ultima. That is main reason why GS get so far? Mammoth combined dmg multiple times is several times tronger than ultima.

[pearl marten]

You dont have snotra

[tidal wyvern]

Snotra would mean almost every miss or 2nd chance mob = death.

Did you never run endless with other classes? I don't think anybody run Ultima build with snotra.

Also snotra would result into 3.3mil dmg - which would still not kill mammon on this level ...and with snotra ...he would one shot me back. 🤷‍♂️

Again - if I had GSA mammoth level of attack, my endless would end much further. 😄

[pearl marten]

Mammon deals mostly magic dmg and snotra only nukes your def. + i have no experience at other than beo endless. And as side note for examble deity has sc which helps with those 1 time misses. If gs gets smacked with despair. There is no second chance.

[tidal wyvern]

It is still 50% chance. It is really not something you want to rely on. I had a lot of endless run where any didn't proc. Most likely ...half of those few hundreds I ran in my life.

AL0 GSA dmg. With 939% summon power. AL150 would be 2348% power. No, my ultima is not close to Mammoth dmg. My ultima is dropping down much faster (cuz summons magic is crazy, my magic is with farm weapons = low) and dmg enemies at F900 really getting low. Not to mention it is temp up buffs dmg - I need DC and t.mag++/+++ up. Mammoth hase base dmg without temps higher than my base ultima. Mammoth are still running at F1500+ fine enough for me. 🤷‍♂️

Like, who ended this run? This silly eye. Single mammoth would take it down AT ANG20 (I dont have more), while my ultima wasn't enough at ang0 with DC up. 🤷‍♂️

[quick gyro]

Has any class other than GS ever hit even floor 3k? Not even going to mention 4k

[tight dagger]

If any other class could hit more then 2 times they probably would 🤔

Main thing is you're comparing 5 hits to 1 hit most case scenarios

You could even say 6 hits compared to 1 hit when bloodpact is involved ( quad scaling spell too ) GS is quite literally built for endless

[tight dagger]

Actually? No floor 10 mammon encounter wipes you as GS

You wouldn't have buffs set up by floor 10, you're lucky if you have a full board by then, and 1 despair is enough to kill you

But A.mammon in the pool would hurt everyone, eventually it would simply garentee a turn, and when it does garenteed death

[pearl marten]

75k dmg per mammoth 🧐

Nvm its a collat hit

[tight dagger]

A.mammon is immune to dark however 🤔 and it's high HP, GS killing machine

But I'd rather just settle for non anguish endless

If you're determined enough dark riftus is still one of the best endless summons in game, and still useable but you'd need really good summon stats gear, and a much more complicated set up ( obviously wouldn't work if anguish was turned off in endless )

[pearl marten]

Many of his endless run "deaths" could have been avoided by using snotra to deal more dmg. Afaik endless is usually kill or be killed, so max dmg should help

[tight dagger]

( imo I'm going to asteria stance too lol, especially in a kill or be killed mode )

[pearl marten]

But you can use snotra with aesteria stance

[tight dagger]

Ik, I was pointing out asteria stance cause I was noticing the Aegir stance lol

On that note I'd probably slap on buffs from other classes if possible, like switching to beo and a lot of pets to get some exclusive buffs like "towering"

Make multiple sets to deal with different situations, at some point in time you'd need a good temp buff set too, T.dex3 would be huge to maintain if possible

You wouldn't make many orns cause this is obviously a more in depth process way of thinking not a farming one, but fully fleshed out I feel a lot of classes can make it pretty far, just not in orn gear

[stone lotus]

Someone has hit 4k.

I believe that's the highest, I find it interesting that the badge caps at 2k.

[quick gyro]

I know, that’s what I was referencing

[tidal wyvern]

There are couple close to 2k Beo (old def button runs) and 1 Deity over 2k (which isnt possible now either iirc).

[stone lotus]

Why isn't it possible anymore?

[twilit pumice]

For Dara, I was only running the typical high def/res builds to zero almost everything, which doesn't allow to snotra. But I am just curious: have you ever tried to use high dex (pumpkinless) instead of high def/res legs (like Fey Raven)? Shouldn't dex scale a lot with ALs, apex passive, and now buffs, which could allow to run a more offensive/higher damage build? Or is this still not enough?
Ah, 2nd chance... 🤦

Some collateral damage would be nice for endless 😄

[stiff marsh]

By the way, HOA does have easier scaling than Orna. At ang 30 HOA has about 640% enemy stats, in Orna it's 720%

[tidal wyvern]

Max dex dodge is 40%. Firstly, I believe that even without working dex buffs Deity out-dex majority of enemies. By a lot. Secondly, Pump boots are 479 dex, Arisen Fey Raven are 287 dex, so eh 🤷‍♂️ . Thirdly, base Deity dex is (was? idk if it was changed with patch rn) 1058. So my endless run are like ~4k dex on stat screen.

[twilit pumice]

Makes sense. My AL10 Dara dex on stats screen is only 1243 (with fey banshee boots, I didn't have ornate fey raven), so with apex almost x2 (I think dex scales, too?), which was already enough for most enemies around f400. So maybe for low AL you could still feel some difference, but probably not for high AL. Even if I have no idea how enemy dex scales with floors in endless (I think not too much?).

[tidal wyvern]

Tbh it scale same as everything else. But imo most enemies dex is really low. Take ang1.0 party dungeons, where monsters had 10x stats - even dex, which was foresight for them - and with 500 you played infront of them (apart really few of them, like immo lords).

[twilit pumice]

For my beoh, I can feel a huge difference in horde Dungeons with vs without pumpkinless, which implies there seem to be several enemies with dex>1000. If dex really scales with general stats, this would mean dex>10k on floor 450, plus anguish stats. So even with 5k dex, you would have only the minimum of 60% hit chance. Thus, I thought probably dex scales differently (much slower) 🤔

[heavy basin]

15 days and 1800+ messages and no one mentioned the fact that we could simply not apply orn/XP buffs from Mel in endless and that would solve most problems. keeping GS best at endless but without too insane gaps given longer preparation and gear requirements and so on as mentioned. also just removing Mel orn/XP buffs from endless is I hope like 15-30 min of coding for Odie and it requires 0 thoughts about interactions with other game modes, GS overall balance, Mel maluses and so on. super easy fix

[tidal wyvern]

IDK. It is some help, but which is better? GS would still get 2-3x more deeper than others in same gear/AL. Getting 2x deeper doesn't mean "just" double rewards. Taking my screen example (which was mel40, x3 orns, no-main-summoner), he would gain "only" ~14 mil orns in 3 hours.

Solution of taking anguish summon power stats for endless (in there 1800 msgs mentioned a lot of times since begin) is same "simple" without effect anywhere else. Ppl could still try to run endless anguished. Question is what will have bigger impact.

[stiff marsh]

Couple of examples of how easy and out of line GS endless is even at low AL. There have been several examples like this the past month
#🏆│triumph-and-tragedy message
#🏆│triumph-and-tragedy message

Granted, it doesn't necessarily sound like these were anguished; but anguish would have simply made their gains better. The problem just compounds on GSA's already high effectiveness at every AL

[untold thorn]

I’m not sure these links add to your point when the guy (second link) is talking about usually dying before floor 400 and that’s pretty standard for several classes in farming gear. Orna required for ALs 18-22 are pretty small amounts as well

And while I wouldn’t say 39-41 (first link) is nothing, that also is doable (Ornwise) in one endless on DAra, HCorvus, RCorvus, etc

[stiff marsh]

Low quality gear, first time attempts, low AL, not even lvl 250.

"You only need the gear for the initial setup and then you shed it away for farming gear"

It's low effort, high accessibility. Getting to floor 400+ on your first try is insane.

[heavy basin]

i want to add a clarification as well: orns have been made basically inconsequential for actual endgamers with memory hunting as well, the undying full buff combo means billions of orns under one undying (it's like more than 5m per memory and you run several hundreds with undying) + one endless or two under undying = GG orns even without gs yel endless. so yes while making orn farming even more trivial might matter, it's already exceptionally far easier than it ever was doing stuff that is absurdly good for mats anyway.

I know plenty of ppl won't do the most efficient thing anyway , but that applies to GS endless , not everyone will do it if they aren't main GS even if it solves orns Forever in the current state. but for people who will do the most efficient thing, undying solves them basically anyway (as does farming mnemonics in general). mats are absurd these days both from mnemonics and from agony proofs, so the game economy is different, it's just about time spent efficiently in the game it's all "broken" if you want to push. most people won't push anyway, so balancing in the economy isn't that needed, just don't get angry if we claim getting al100 is easy, because it is far easier than al50 was one year ago

[stiff marsh]

Undying proof accessibility is incredibly rare and requires a huge investment over the account's lifetime.

People getting to floor 400 on their first endless attempt and being able to use standard quality gear for buffing before swapping to orn gear for the duration is not those things. It's very accessible at low AL and handily outperforms other classes in terms of reward/effort ratio. Anguish compounds the issue.

AL 50 1 year ago was pretty easy with refineries 😂

[heavy basin]

lol 170 deep dungeons during double proof events is trivially easy if you want to do it, requires 0 gear and 0 Al, and then you get very close to the second undying in the memory guild itself (depending how much you push under the first) and getting the mnemonic themselves got utterly trivialized by the mini towers which we got twice in 2 months, meaning anyone who wanted to has 500+++ mnemonics just from that event (with 0 Al 0 gear required again to be clear). I am not sure you realize how utterly absurd one mnemonic under full buffs is these days we are talking more than 1k mats per mnemonic, doing 500 under undying is like several months of running 50+ refineries. and you can do 500 memories per day...

[stiff marsh]

I know just how good memory buffs are, but you are ignoring how difficult the grind is to get to the point where you can actually do the things you are suggesting.

30+ hours of grinding explorations (worst content in the game), hours and hours of grinding mnemosyne towers, hours of grinding couchable memory hunts, hours of grinding to get the necessary gear/amities/pet to do the content mentioned above, for each proof that is single-use and only obtainable once per guild.

And you wanna compare that to getting base quality yelmogus gear, or to passive income refineries? Yes, proof of undying allegiance will boost you like crazy, but that represents a hell of a lot more effort than GSA endless

[tidal wyvern]

(50 rafs was 200 000 mats/month
100 rafs was 400 000 mats/month
so rafs > mnemonics however you put it ...as undying is still few
timewise it is similar, operating 100 rafs cost you ~10 hours per month total buying/filling ...but again, undying one time stuff 🤷‍♂️ )

[heavy basin]

undying is 2 very easy ones as explained, rest is hard if you are starting the game now, but given towers were the previous nobrain endgame content to farm above everything else with an absurd margin, efficient players supposedly should be able to get that as well if they played long enough at some point, and 3 undying is like going from AL 50 to 120-130 ; ofc it's more effort than gsa endless but it's mats which were the actual bottleneck and far more important than orns (if you play efficiently), orns are ADDED for free on top of that lol, gsa endless is just orns and some mel proofs; my point is that IF you are willing to do the most efficient thing the game is broken economy/resource wise so i don't think it's too important to balance broken things too much. As i said removing mel orn buffs from endless can be done, it's easy and it has no repercussions for any other content for any class, but i don't think lvl 240 players farming 100m orns easily is a bad thing tbh (And again if those are the numbers, that's just 2 hours of mnemonics without undying and without event). For endgamers, if they play towers and mnemonics (that's the efficient way) as they base, normal gaming, you get 100m+ orns per day passively from the mat-efficient activities, you can't be orn blocked if you play efficiently even if you never again do an endless basically lol. I did al 150-199 with 1 endless session (pre yel). So who are we targeting here? people playing very far from the minmaxing available, having fun in the various sub-efficient content they like to farm, and "omg" having a way to skip orn farming endless on inefficient classes so they can enjoy the content they like more? who's going to be hurt by that? it's not like they are the minimaxers, those never had orns problems to begin with even pre-yel

[stiff marsh]

Sounds like another version of "orns don't matter anyway", which as I've said previously in the thread is a super dangerous mindset IMO. I for one don't want to see orns go the way Gold has gone, and would rather the game didn't inflate economies out of control.

[restive turtle]

"super dangerous mindset" and how does having that much orns inflate the economy?

[heavy basin]

fact is they do not matter (for minimaxing endgamers), it's a currency that matters "up until a certain point" and not in the true endgame, in the sense you passively gain enough for it's uses. It's a mid-game block to overcome. I understand you might not like that had happened , but it did happen, just later than with gold. A huge portion of the playerbase though will still have gold/orn problems at some point in their playthrough. Allowing that block to be overcome more easily when you are t10 and dragon event happens isn't gamebreaking. Unlike refineries, which allowed for unsourmountable gaps to build up in favor of the minmaxers (word i use to describe people willing to do the most efficient thing, fun be damned) , gs endless further trivializing orns doesn't actually matter (for the endgame). As for the game in it's totality, at any point odie can introduce a new currency only farmable from that point on to keep some stuff not-being-trivial , like he did with specific guild proofs necessary to get some things that are good in the game, guild xp to unlock specs and whatnot, and the very long climb for the 4 paths of anguish 2.0. That a currency that was previously core in it's role for bottlenecking progression and keep people farming gets triviliazed isn't game breaking and isn't dangerous imo.

I am actually more preoccupied with XP being completly and utterly triviliazed (people reaching badge 500 with 2-3 endless runs), i was kinda hoping xp had a chance to become relevant again at least in some niche sense, as a tracker of overall progress or whatnot. Now that's done as an option given you can farm 150T xp with a couple thousands of floors running 2x yel tomes and superpotion

[restive turtle]

orns literally doesnt affect anything except for buying als mostly, you can't exchange orns for mats like proofs, shards, corals and most importantly gold. practically speaking hitting gold cap would give u so much value in mats. While orns just stockpile and basically sit in your acc not even get touched for months. And gs identity and playstyle made it much better for endless content anyways cus 6 v 1.

as acnient said, what do u guys actually target for this nerf? because the real people who are gonna be affected by this are non minmaxers or lower al people. Even if you do that you people that already abused it won't get "punished" for it. It's just gatekeeping in a way, abuse the system for your own benefit -> complain its broken so others can't benefit from it like you did.

[stiff marsh]

That's the issue - this idea that orns aren't used for anything other than ALs. For one, building your own OT towers cost way more orns than your early ALs will. But really the danger is that orns will become obsolete and we will never see a NEW use for them, because any potential new orn requirement turns into a joke with GSA endless.

[stiff marsh]

The idea that "you're only hurting low AL/casual people" is bull. This is a knee-jerk reaction from someone who hasn't read the thread to see the proposed suggestions and concerns, or someone who is intentionally misrepresenting the situation.

Low AL/casual people are the ones who least use anguish in their endless runs. The problems discussed in this thread are regarding anguish being pure upside to GS and ballooning depth and orn gains out of control.

And for the record, I have never run endless as GS. Nobody's out here trying to maliciously gatekeep others; the people who did abuse anguish and want it gone are people who realize how bad it is for the game's health. Keeping it around only leads to worse game design

[tight dagger]

Think that's the difference between orna and HOA as well tbf

As in HOA many things make orns an obsolete currency, ESPECIALLY memory hunting, with the new memory hunting boosting gear

Even now at least for HOA, gs endless isn't the top of the top unless you fully invest into a run with best of gears across the board, getting to floor 2k ish

There's nothing for us to spend orns on, we have more uses for gold then orns on our end 😅, only thing we use orns for is AL's especially end gamers, and we are limited on how many towers we can build ( idk if orna is or not ) so after building the initial 5, there's no more use for orns but AL and pet buying, also spec swapping if you do it occasionally

It's a little different for y'all because orns is a bit harder for you to target farm 🤔

[stiff marsh]

We have strong memory hunting and 5 OT towers, but endless is by far still the best source of orns. You guys have/had world boss farming which was better than endless, so maybe you just stockpiled a ton

[tight dagger]

I mean even now, world farming you can average some crazy orn incomes, memory hunting definitely trumps it though, considering you can force a good seed and just farm them back to back with no effort, just need the gear

It's common to make millions/billions of orns in HOA at T10, orns is quite obsolete for us

You'd have to address, world farming, orn buffs in general, memory hunting, and endless, for orns to become a valuable currency that isn't used for "just AL's" and I think that would be a big ask if orns is the main concern being

[stiff marsh]

I can't speak for HoA's side but in Orna, GSA endless is like a 10 to 100+ multiplier on orn rates compared to other sources (depending on AL and anguish level). It's just on a totally different level, and I imagine it's the same in HoA but nobody feels the need or has really bothered with it

[tight dagger]

On HOA, we can farm about 40-55 memories an hour, T4 towers being insane free deluted mnemonics ( other ways to obtain them ofc )

It's a far cry from even being relevant to endless gains, mainly being you can average orns and insane mats per hour

Mats being valuable as a currency for many things

You'd need to justify orns being a relevant currency to gold and that's very unlikely in the HOA community, as even gold trumps orns as a currency

Atm there's no other way to spend orns, and if there was it would be irrelevant to us mostly being how easy an accessible orn farming is for us 🤔

Both games would be effected by a change like this and if orns were to become an important currency then now, it would need to be nerfed across the board for all orn incomes

( like maybe orn bonuses from anguish being cut in half, and some solution to memory hunting currency )

[stiff marsh]

I really don't get how Gold could be relevant when it's insanely easy to surpass the visual cap on gold lol

[lost lance]

In hoa, mnemosyne event is basically an infinite diluted mnemonics glitch, even in orna but only when you have multiple couchable hours

[tight dagger]

We use more then the visual cap on gold, to reroll supermarkets for mats, a much more valuable resource,

It ramps up quickly to billions per reroll lol

On that note, it can also be used to get monster remains, waypoints and many other valuable things to us in HOA

Orns doesn't offer much else but AL's at a certain point which we reach a lot faster then orna 😅

[restive turtle]

exactly which gives more value than orns at the end of the day cus u can buy mats on the grandmarket

[stiff marsh]

@tight dagger @restive turtle you can buy EVERY mat on the grand market? And rerolls cost more gold per reroll?

[tight dagger]

I can buy most mats on the grand market, wouldn't say every mat 🤔

And yes the reroll costs of gold ramp up very quickly lol

Where you could spend possibly billions of gold on maybe 3-4k mats, not assuming you buy all the gear and dismantle it as well ( which people do that, I'm far too lazy too )

[stiff marsh]

That's absurd lol. For reference this is basically every mat you can buy on the GM in orna, and the reroll is static since these mats are limited.

HoA really is easy mode if you can just spend gold for most mats. Gold is so easy to get in endless, HoA should be completely free ALs through gsa orns and gold gains

[tight dagger]

No it looks about the same tbh, in which all those mats are pretty valuable to us

Perfect mats ect we have to buy from guild shops ect, but that's still adds more value to gold then to orns in terms of a currency and it's worth by quite a bit

Being orns is mostly used on 1 time unlocks then just AL's

Gold being used for potions/mats/valuable items

Orns is harder to grind for then gold and it's funny that it works like that cause gold is used for many more things in our economy XD, ofc if gold was harder, I think everyone would be complaining quite a bit 🤔 ( anyway new event is live! I'm off to grind )

[tidal wyvern]

I don't think orn income from memory hunt is anywhere close to endless. Even for lesser classes. 5m per memory with undying said by Ancient. You do what? 80-100 memory per hour? Sorry that is 500mil/hour. How is that comparable to endless? My deity is 1-1,5 bil hour. GS on similar mel/AL as me is 10-15 bil/hour.

[twilit pumice]

As you used F400 for low AL GS as an argument for how easy GS orn farming is: My 3rd endless run with AL10 Dara was F450+ with seals build, so full orn (2x a.terror etc). I am noting this as maybe not everybody is aware how easy orn farming already was w/o GS.

But yes, I can go deeper with GS, and i think it is important to understand why this is the case (before "randomly" nerfing something).

However, after several arguments, calculations etc, I have not seen a (mathematically) valid argument except the obvious point that:

(1) as summoner you can run with max strength and switch to full orn gear, whereas with all other classes (incl Dara) you have to decide whether you go max strength or full orn,

(2) because of multi summon hits, so 2nd chance being almost irrelevant,

(3) stun dart which is only possible with BeoA/pet or GS/summons for the damage.

But I am really interested if there are other reasons which are unique for GS (I also had some wrong arguments in my mind when this thread started) .

[tidal wyvern]

Well, you said it yourself - anguish stats being AL multiplicative. If your 509% became 809% at mel20 or 1109% at mel40, it is huge difference. That together with what you said and enormous orn multiplier and zerk maluses for GS. I farmed orns/endless with DAra since forever. I wrote the guides for it. GS break it to pieces, cmon.

I was able to hit f1400 on mel20 as my first endless run with GS. In full orn gear. And it timed out, I didnt die. I wasnt able to hit much over 1k with full geared deity, mel0, trying for depth.

[twilit pumice]

Yes, how could I forget that in my list 😂 Probably because my GS is low AL, so the effect is quite small for me... 🙈
I would argue that the 3 points above are inherent part of the summoner identity and it would be pretty bad to change anything about it. AL multiplicative anguish stats could IN PRINCIPLE be changed, but I guess (but don't know) that this would hit GS pretty hard for all other content (given that GS is relatively rather weak/slow in most content)?

[tidal wyvern]

It would, yes. It is not good option.

Ang summon power on gear should be turn off for endless only.

[tight dagger]

500mil orns per hour+thousands of mats per hour, memory hunting is far superior to endless in terms of efficiency, you don't need billions of orns in a single setting, mats is more important than orns, and even then memory hunting gives you both, endless only gives orns, and it takes a long endless run for most to even get 500mil orns, 1 hour of memory hunting compared to 1 hour of endless, memory hunting wins, endless gets better after that first hour but you aren't getting thousands of mats, only orns, in which memory hunting can cover

[tidal wyvern]

So...that means we can scrap endless all together cuz orns somewhere better? That means nerfing GS completely there doesnt matter either cuz you dont have to farm orns there, memory enough? Do I get it right? So why are we even arguing? Last several post from several summoners was same...so lets forbid summons in endless alltogether and it is set. 😅 Nobody use endless anyway, cuz memory better.

Anyway, yes. It takes long sessies for most. But not for GS. In first hour as GS I get several billions. And then it gets even crazier. 😅

Someone earlier suggested (you?) to nerf orn/gold/exp in endless to the ground. Well, lets do that.

Also, why is trying to change the subject? This is endless topic. GS vs others. GS is way way above others, even 2nd behind him, and that is fact. Don't even comparing it to low endless class.

[velvet rock]

Why are we comparing memory hunting orn gains to endless anyway? You need to use rare consumables to reach that theoretical 500mil per hour when that is easily achievable on endless anytime you want without special buffs

Also has anyone reported gs scaling with anguish as a bug? Odie is aware of it I'm sure but I highly doubt it was intentional that they get stronger the more anguish levels they pack on. That's kind of the opposite of the intent of the content isn't it?

[twilit pumice]

In the beginning of this thread I thought the same, but now I think that the general scaling happens for all classes if you are able to have no relevant malus on your path.

For example, with 10 anguish levels, you have 30% better stats due to anguish (similar relative increase for GS) and 200% ADDITIVE enemy stats. At F450, enemies have 1000% stats w/o anguish and 1200% with ang10. So 20% relative increase in difficulty and 30% more player stats.

So if your are able to reach high floors, for higher anguish level player stats increase more than enemy stats.

However, I think the aspect that anguish stats are AL multiplicative could be an issue for gs endless (so maybe this should be removed for endless only?)

[velvet rock]

There's absolutely no way other classes are outscaing anguish, especially on endless. Like phil said earlier those red numbers are a lie. They don't scale with ascension, they just get added on at the end which makes them kinda weak. You are not actually getting 30% better stats with 10 anguish levels. If that were the case then other classes would be running as much anguish as possible like gs is, and they're not

[twilit pumice]

Yes, the calculation is for AL0 (or AL multiplicative anguish stats). For AL100 and additive ang stats, the relative increase should be around 15% for ang 10, so the breakpoint would be around F617 (617x2%+100=1330% and 200/1330=15%). And that's without considering anguish orn bonus. Which still implies that anguish isn't necessarily harder for higher anguish levels with ADDITIVE anguish stats.

Unless anguished stat bonus is calculated differently, which I am not aware of?

I don't want to imply here that GS isn't (far) better for endless. But I don't think the argument "anguish makes endless harder for every class except GS" is valid. AL multiplicative bonus, however, would be a different thing if this is GS only (even if I think this applies to beo, too).

[tight dagger]

1. Mainly because of the difference in games ( diluted mnemonics being an easy grind for us, ESPECIALLY with the new titans&giants features )

2. No it's not super easy reaching 500 mil orns in an hour even with endless, if you are it's with nearly a years worth of events on your back and still with buffs on

[velvet rock]

Sorry but that's just denying reality at this point. Anguish does in fact make endless harder for every class except gs (when geared correctly) which it makes easier. Anguish gear can make it less painful obviously but you're still getting out scaled if you're not a gs

[twilit pumice]

I just don't believe that. Anguish isn't overall easier for low AL summoner. The first few hundred floors are more difficult, but there is a breakpoint, so once you are able to pass that, you go deeper with increasing anguish level. And for all other classes, this should be the same, as it's the same math for AL0 (except that GS can use full orn Gear with full damage summons). The main difference seems to be AL multiplicative ang stats, which makes anguished endless much more profitable for high AL.

[velvet rock]

If you're running orn endless (which is what we're talking about) then there's barely anything to scale anyways. You're running a chest and head piece with barely any stats and a very mediocre weapon damage wise. Beyond anguish 1 that gear isn't doing anything for you. Meanwhile anguish gear scales summons to infinity. You're delusional if you think that it was intended to be that way

[twilit pumice]

My AL10 Dara full orn Gear (not anguished) increases def from 1142 to 6768 and mag (with low ornate a.terror) from 1676 to 5649, which is enough for several 100k Damage with viperseal. And of course these stats would scale with anguished gear.

[velvet rock]

Your gear got 5x stats from...what exactly? You're gonna have to show your work

[velvet rock]

Unless you're saying that's the stats you gained from equipping the gear, which is not what we're talking about. We are talking about how gear scales with anguish vs how summons scale with it. In which case gear (especially low stat gear like orn gear) gets out scaled while summons get stronger

[twilit pumice]

Oh, my bad. The stats screen is for more than AL10. I forgot the typical error. So the real stats are probably 40% less than shown in the stats screen.

[twilit pumice]

The stats from gear are the basis for anguish stats increase, so yes, I am talking about stats from gear.

[velvet rock]

Me: summons scale much better than gear with anguish bonuses, so much so that they out pace anguish stat scaling while gear does not

You: Yeah well when I equip gear I gain stats, checkmate

I can't even 😂

[twilit pumice]

Cmon. You: "there's barely anything to scale anyways. You're running a chest and head piece with barely any stats and a very mediocre weapon damage wise."
Me: showing the stats that scale with anguish 🤷

Total Summon Stats increase by <3% per anguish level for AL0. This scaling is not very different from all other classes.

[stiff marsh]

You're trying to compare the relative increase of summon stats to the absolute increase of other classes?

So because Summoner gets 600+% summon stats from baseline gear and spec, the increase of 20+% is relatively less than enemies that only get 100% plus 20% per level. And you wanna say that this means it's about the same as other classes, who get 3% of the gear stats added flat and don't get to multiply AL?

That's a joke tbh. Getting 40 more mag flat on my staff is nowhere near equivalent to 3% * AL summon stats

[tight dagger]

600% summon stats really depends on the summon as I mentioned

I can increase baseline warg by 1200% and it still will underperform compared to say AD increased only by 200%

I can kinda see their point, each summon has different baseline stats ( which is always much less then a player ) so the increase of stats is equivalent to say a player putting on the right gear, but in endless we can simply bring the best out of summons via snapshotting, not all summons are particularly good in endless, mammoth out performs most summons on not getting 0'd by almost 500-600 floors

Otherwise if you're taking flat bonuses and saying 600% increase to summons is better then players increase in stats, that means I should be able to run all content smoothly, and my AOE summons should be doing similar AOE to a player ( which is far from the case XD )

Summons are pure stats, no other bonuses or multipliers work on them besides their increase of stats, the only way they can overcome challenges is just increasing their stats but you can only do so much with them

Now you could compare say 5 fully buffed summons to a slightly buffed player

In which at the end of the day we get 5 hits compared to the 1 hit a player can do, ( 6 if you count the summoner )

If you could run say 5 deity with orn gear, 5 separate hits, you'd have a far better result, you're lower stats then in your main gear ofc, which if 5 deities in main gear did endless that would be far greater than summons could go

Difference mainly being summoner hides between it's summons and if the enemy gets a turn you made a mistake and tragically die, I've seen AL90 summoners die on floor 500 and less do to a summons poor actions, it's not smooth for all summoners, nor is it the most efficient method of AL grinding ( in HOA ), it's solely an orns grind, once again not much of a currency in the game rn, compared to more valuable and transformable currencies, endless is very nice for lvling up, it's probably the best exp method of all methods, can be amazing for lvl friends or alts from T10->T11 by the sheer amount of exp you can get, which can save probably at least 50 ish hours of time lol

[twilit pumice]

I think you missed a part of the conversation,which is about difficulty in-/decrease in endless with anguish levels. My argument was that ang stats being AL multiplicative seems to be the main problem, which should maybe be removed for endless (and only endless).

For AL0 and with max summon Stats, each anguish level increases summon Stats by <3% (yes, based on the increased value - everything else doesn't make sense).

For non GS and AL0, your gear stats increase by 3%, so considering base stats, total stats increase by >2% per anguish level (e.g. 2x a.terror are already enough for 2% mag increase).

So in both situations, there will be a breakpoint in endless around F400 (a bit lower/higher for GS/non GS), where higher anguish level will reduce difficulty.

For higher AL and ADDITIVE ang stats, this breakpoint is higher (maybe F800 for AL100). But GS has multiplicative ang summon Stats, so that's the main difference regarding reaching higher floors with more anguish.

[stiff marsh]

A perfect godforged 200% A.Terror has 1450 mag, an ang level gives 43 mag. Dual wielding them gives each only 65% for a total of 1940 mag. Without the ang level, dual wielding gives 1884 mag, so the anguish level on both gave 56 mag total - that's 3% of the weapons, not of the player's mag stat. So the relative increase at AL 0 of perfect weapons is quite a bit less, and it absolutely tanks with each AL.

Your breakpoint "where higher anguish level will reduce difficulty" is a gross misrepresentation. Higher anguish level never becomes easier for non-GS classes. Just because a 20% stat for enemies is relatively smaller does not mean the difficulty has decreased; the player stats also grow relatively less at every ang level.

The goalposts have been moving a lot. This thread is not about AL 0 summoner, it's about how anguish can be abused with a minimal amount of ALs. No other class can do this, plain and simple; the only good thing higher anguish brings to non-GS is higher profit

[velvet rock]

(And quicker death)

[twilit pumice]

Mag stats: around 2k from weapons and 1k from class, so 2/3x3%=2% additive per anguish level (that's just what I wrote above)

Example for F1000: 2100% enemy stats w/o anguish, 2300% with ang10 (10x20% additive), so <10% more hp due to anguish.
Player mag +20% for ang10, so +20% damage due to anguish (proportional to mag).

So damage increase (and all other stats) can clearly outscale hp increase from anguish for higher floors, which means deeper runs (if you can run deeper than the mentioned breakpoint, which is way before F1000).

I will stop now with this thread as most seem not to be interested in understanding the reason for GS endless performance, but just want to nerf summoner no matter what.

[velvet rock]

Duel wielding two perfect terrors with anguish 10 is only around a 16% increase btw. Using heretic as an example with a base magic of 1636 at lv 250 al 0, the weapons are the only part of that increased by anguish levels. And I don't think damage stat increase is directly proportional to damage increase, sure doesn't feel like it at least

[stiff marsh]

Your logic is flawed and does not match reality; you're conflating relative difficulty with actual difficulty.

You're now comparing relative increase at floor 1000 to the player's relative increase (that does not scale with depth).

Your logic, example for F1: 100% enemy stats w/o anguish, 300% with ang10, so 200% more hp due to anguish.
Player mag +20% for ang10 = +20% "damage" (20% mag does not translate to 20% damage).

So player stats clearly don't outscale enemy hp or other stats at ang10 floor 1, yet your logic claims that they outscale at ang 10 floor 1000 (even though player stats don't increase with depth)? You are comparing apples to oranges.

Plus, we'd be seeing non-GS classes pushing higher anguish and higher depth in endless if every class could do it.

[mossy portal]

Ah, the age-old Orna debate: Should the absolute BiS, event-locked, most difficult, and most time consuming to obtain, gear for a class make it broken for the content the class excels at?

[velvet rock]

I think the fact that it's become very popular lately for non gs classes to hoc to gs for a week to make billions upon billions of orns before swapping back should be a giant red flag of an indicator that something about gs endless is busted. People don't usually do that sort of thing unless it gives an advantage that is just too big to ignore.

You can argue that it's all well and good people are doing this but I don't think you're being objective or honest with yourself

[mossy portal]

I was gonna make another joke, but it seems Orna players don't like serious questions and humor together

[tidal wyvern]

If you could run say 5 deity with orn gear, 5 separate hits, you'd have a far better result, you're lower stats then in your main gear ofc, which if 5 deities in main gear did endless that would be far greater than summons could go

No I won't.

My AL144 summoner mamoth still hitting 1-2 mil at floor1400. AT MEL20. Tbh at MEL40 they would hit even more, funny right?

My AL160 DAra hits 400k at floor700 with DC. 800k with DC & t.mag+++. Which is both chances. At MEL0. Mammoth doesn't even need smth like this. At MEL20 (not to say 40) I would be dead at floor700 with 0 dmg. 🙂

Thanks.

[tidal wyvern]

My argument was that ang stats being AL multiplicative seems to be the main problem, which should maybe be removed for endless (and only endless).

This is my #1 proposition since begin of this thread.

(also side note: player stats maybe can outscale monster stats in endless, but maluses kill the run, cuz summons don't care)

[fathom apex]

"My steak is too juicy and lobster too buttery" ahh thread.

[thick wolf]

#FreeSummonerEndless
Fun > Balance

[stiff marsh]

I for one don't think throwing out Orns as a meaningful currency is fun or balanced 🤷‍♂️

[tidal wyvern]

Agree!

Also apex boots & offhand. 👌

Fun > balance.

[quick gyro]

Let’s make SS crit again!

Fun > balance.

[thick wolf]

We have so much stupid BS in the game that is'nt touched for ages; we can either accept that there is now GS endless, or another weird strat will arise that gets it for free and then complain it down again.

Endless is and was always screwed; i don't really understand why now suddenly its big issue

[tidal wyvern]

Cuz make it 10x more profitable is kind of too much?

[thick wolf]

Changing it now means precisely that the hundreds of hundreds of people who use it now never have to worry about orns again, and everyone after having a HUGE disadvantage.

I didn't welcome this - we had refineries for half a decade doing the same thing, untouched, while it could have had a swift reaction day 1 - now this, which is also in forever... lets please not make the same mistakes.

Getting the mats for ascensions alone is a very potent thing.

Same with refineries: instead of making people aware, the ppl who could use it forever got scott free hundreds of ALs through very boring means. Then it git removed instead; screwing everybody, and now Theres a bunch of really high AL players who steamroll conquerers and wars cause of the lack of a real catchup. You esentially took the wrong path and screwed up everybody, and benefitted those who exploited it scott free.

Do we really now wanna have the same scenario where you either FOMO the new BiS Orn method or you gonna regret forever that you didn't?

I really, REALLY don't wanna do the same mistake.

[stiff marsh]

You're arguing that you'd rather have everyone gain infinite orns than only a few people who already abused this. You're saying "let the busted strategy stay in the game" instead of nipping it now. The problem with refineries is that they stayed for way too long, not that we finally chose to nip it.

[thick wolf]

Look. Having those exploits sit for months until all high guilds and players had a chance to use them to THEN report them properly and make ppl aware of it to get it banned is a beautiful strategy to get away scott free, but in the same sense, its only a matter of time until it gets called out.

I dont enjoy the ideology of letting the strong and good players who have every item on the ready thoroughly abuse those things and when they get bored of it, getting it then nerfed.

Its sickening, its tiring, and it already pissed me off greatly when we talked about refineries. Do we really have to repeat the exact same mistakes again? As if we learned absolutely nothing from refineries and pretend that all of this isnt true?

At this point all high AL players who do not want to care about Orns anymore got PLENTY of chance to do it and most likely have done it yet. Everyone else has to wait for the events to come back or organize with the community to aqquire the required items.

Is this really the time to act now? There is no universe where that loop is a healthy decision. Rich get richer ponzy sceme under the the mantle of "wanting to benefit and balance the game"?

This is a general issue of community and development approach and needs a more sophisticated approach then "now as all top players who wanted used it to their hearts content, lets get it nerfed for everybody else, and create an even bigger gap" 👍

Do not nerf the endless, its WAY too late. Lets find another way of either preventing those things from happening in the future by swift reaction and punishment (like when we could make alts so endless only every had T1 enemys for example) or lets find a rework of ascensions, where orns matter once you can afford the endless setup.

This is not a "better late then never", this is a "we screwed it up completely, its too late to do something without creating more gaps orna doesn't need, lets fin a better solution then creating an even bigger issue out of a big issue". PLease no more bandaids on festering, constantly reponening wounds.

[stiff marsh]

I disagree on almost every front, I think many people have the mindset of "a few people have abused something, don't nerf it before I get to abuse it too pls" and this just isn't how to handle it. Rotten branches have to go, not stay and spoil the whole tree.

[velvet rock]

With how you can scale up cd as high as your main hit these days it's like ss3 can crit but better 😉

[thick wolf]

So letting them fester for months and then AFTER all the high ppl already used it is, getting it called out by high ppl... is better? X3

[mossy portal]

I wonder how much of this is just people not wanting to play GS.

From my experience, I and many other players would switch between classes for certain content: GS for safer towers (many heretic players for towers, too), Beo for horde dungeon, Deity (or BeoA) for raids, etc. Things change a bit when you finally get that BiS gear, like no longer needing GS to get to TF 50 safely, but you get the idea.

Considering BeoH is so good for horde dungeon (enter in and just start spamming BL2 with no buff phase), should we nerf BeoH and/or BL2 because it obtains mats from dungeons 10x faster than GS on ang0?

If I recall correctly, in order to ascend, you need mats and orns. You could have the Orn limit and it wouldn't matter whatsoever if you dont have the mats to ascend.

Furthermore, ascending is a purely optional game mechanic for PvE and maybe leaderboard climbing. Being AL0 BeoH or AL26 BeoH changes nothing for my gameplay. Being AL100 probably would, since now it's "one-shot or be one-shot" but with bigger numbers.

Im not arguing that players shouldn't care about AL, just that it is completely optional

[tidal wyvern]

10x faster than 2nd fastest class tho. Should I compare it also to others? 🙃 Like 30x faster than Gilga?

Also I don't think Beo is 10x faster in dungeons than GS, that is exaggeration. GS can also use BL2. You take 15 minutes to finish a dungeon? 🙃

[lost lance]

1min 30s vs 2min 30s

[mossy portal]

Obviously it's an exaggeration.

This just means BL2 needs to be nerfed, going by Orna player standards. I can also use BeoA with Cactus as an example to keep it inline with using just their class-specific equipment. BeoA would still be faster, Gilga too with CD. And yet GS would need to be summoning and still have the threat of being one-shot much more than the other classes.

So, how much faster should the best class be in the content it excels in when equipped with the BiS gear across 4-5 different events? 10x? 5x? 2x? 1.3x? Doesnt really matter to me, I'm just here because im curious.

Edit: im genuinely asking

[tidal wyvern]

I still don't like when ppl come in chat about endless and bring other content here. You didn't notice there are also other thread, calling for other nerfs? Some class having too easy raid? Some is too OP in everything? This being way too much? And it is being adressed - sooner or later. And none of those cases were ever "10x better than any other", it is usually much less. So why this is ok all of the sudden? 🤯

Just for you information, I'm Deity main since forever. And I asked to nerf my own class and was in for it (Rhay above who is Deity was against, lol, cuz it is not fun). And I was also giving examples of what/how can be nerfed. And I'm not shouting here "NO NERF FOR ME".

I'm buffled to the ground tbh.

[stiff marsh]

I will reiterate - Yelmogus gear is not needed to abuse anguish. Yelmogus gear of literally any quality makes the buff phase super easy and accessible, but that's all it does.

To go deep and make massive gains you only need the highest summon stat% gear you have anguished as high as you can, and any quality Ophion banner. There is extra risk associated with the setup phase if you have bad gear but the only cost of that is some keys and a little time. Summoner endless is very accessible.

[tidal wyvern]

you only need the highest summon stat% gear you have anguished as high as you can

correction: you don't need highest summon stat%, I took the cheapest ...cuz base % are low, ang%+adorns are much higher numbers 🙃

[mossy portal]

We bring in other content to compare. Nerfing without comparison is shortsighted, no?

You saying your own main should be nerfed does what, exactly? I agree with the other Deity player, no nerf needed The one thing I see in this server more often than not is more nerfs /joke

While we're here making comparisons, is other classes literally one-shotting raids supposed to be nerfed, too? Or BiS methods of completing raids 10x faster than normal, like Duo with stasis? Im not wanting to bring those into the forefront of the discussion, but if we're making comparisons to other content as you say, then I might as well

I also specifically asked how fast a class should be in the content they excel at with the best possible gear in the game across 4-5 different events?

[tight dagger]

This isn't correct lol

You wouldn't be able to go that deep with just that

[noble flower]

You do kind of need Yelm gear, just not of a good quality/anguished

Zerks are one of the biggest reasons why people are reaching so far now, and without yelm gear it's pretty much impossible to apply those effectively, same with the perm dex and crit buffs

[tidal wyvern]

And I will reapeat the same - for other content, make other threads. But they probably already exist for everything you just mentioned. And they are mentioned a lot everywhere. So you are saying that when those problems exist, it is ok for next one to appear and not adress it? Someone else can do it, so why shouldn't I?

Im not wanting to bring those into the forefront of the discussion

Yet in your first post you only talked about other classes doing other stuff.

I have to step of again for a bit, cuz the amount of ppl saying it is ok always made me crazy ...this, or anything else over edge. 🫠

[mossy portal]

You put in a quote about a specific content piece in context to your reply. I think it's disingenuous to do so, but you do you.

My first post is making a comparison. Like I said before, in my opinion nerfing without comparing is shortsighted.

Isn't that the reason why many others are comparing other classes to GS? So, we can compare classes to GS but not other content to Endless?

And im not the one saying it's a problem. I hope thats clear. None of my points have been addressed whatsoever, youre just pointing out that im comparing to other content and not engaging.

[tight dagger]

On that note, asteria stance, alignment book, and other various buffs

Summoning without riftlocks would be very long ( if possible to pull out a 4 turn summon when 3 are out XD )

To pass Buffs you'd have to wait on fade each cycle, that would take an hour alone without yel gear

And without other sets and event gears to switch too in danger or to stack temp buffs

Summoner endless for most is nearly 5-8 events worth of gear, and most don't have it

[mossy portal]

Took me almost 2 years to get the event gear necessary for GS endless and even then I didnt have ornate+ of most of them.

I see this time and time again, a video of a player deep into endgame with all gear available to them pulling something off like this and it gets the community up in arms.

Should GS have multiplicative and additive scaling at the same time? I wonder if thats the real discussion here, and not whether the method of using BiS gear in content by a class that excels in it should be somehow nerfed

[tight dagger]

I would say without it being multiplicative, it kills summoner in all content XD

Summons cannot be buffed as they are in endless in any other content, it doesn't even come close

[tidal wyvern]

There is no bis gear in anguish endless.

You need common white level 1 ophinion banner, 1 asteria stance stick, 4 yelm summoner equips - all in level 1. And mammoth (or ancient dragons, which are not event locked). That's it. Out of those you have to wait for Yelm gear, ophinion & asteria you can get for good words anywhere from others.

Then you need any equip with "summons stats" and anguish it as much as you can. I took the cheapest in material cost. And ofc GF farming gear - again in any quality. 🙃

Also - I want nerf ONLY to GS endless. No touch anywhere else. And there were already proposition from me. And also fine from AncientL. Both focusing only on endless activity. So why should I look at other content quality and compare it with other classes?

[mossy portal]

I agree completely, I suppose my adjusted question is then whether the scaling on GS should be adjusted for "endurance/endless" content?

[velvet rock]

I think the fact that non gs players who don't want to play gs and don't farm gs gear are still swapping over to abuse this should tell you that you don't need all the event gear and that it's still busted without it.

Also almost all of the people in this thread saying it's busted have not abused this themselves

[stiff marsh]

The ways to solve it appropriately is what this thread is about 👍 not just blanket nerfing gs

[restive turtle]

im not sure about that last part

[velvet rock]

Bordodas is the only one I saw. I haven't. Phil hasn't. Gurnn hasn't

Edit: Dammit Gurnn 😂

[tidal wyvern]

I did.

Just recently, cuz everybody in our kingdom having billions of orns. Even some AL20 having more than me ever had made my jump over it. I did 4 endless and I'm out.

[stiff marsh]

Who has and hasn't abused it isn't really the problem y'all, it's the abusable thing

Of course some people need to have "abused it" to prove that it is "abusable"

[restive turtle]

3 people doesn't represent the whole community or majority of the people. A lot of people who abused it non stop called it broken and wanted to nerf it. Kinda screams hypocrisy to me, abuse then complain.

the duality

[velvet rock]

That's not a good reason to keep it around

[tight dagger]

I think it's mainly endless as a whole that needs a rework

Suggested many things on it, like it would be okay if orns were nerfed to the ground, if so would be cool to see horde encounters or more mats from endless content, but that's if we even truely value orns as a currency, atm orns is solely used for Als endgame, we use gold more so then we use orns in general

Nerfing endless doesn't do much for how easy orns is as a currency atm, billions? Yeah still, if you can get billions of orns a day, that currency itself is basically dead XD

So I wouldn't nerf endless for the sake of orns as a currency, i would rather make endless more entertaining, enter more challenges and give it a better purpose then orns income

[restive turtle]

i don't really care if endless gs gets nerf and what not, if change is what you want i hope it's only applicable to orna and won't get pushed through in aethric. No one literally complains this hard on our community so idk how needy the orna community is over here. If u guys want a simple fix for this problem then disable gs from doing mel or anguished endless. Easy fix no more endless abuse and crazy orn gains if that's what u guys want.

[mossy portal]

Swapping to other classes for different content is classic Orna gameplay, correct me if im wrong but the game basically incentives you to do so.

Also, players passively get gear for other classes from events all the time. It made switching to BeoA easy for follower-based builds for me.

Youre basically saying players just dismantle good event gear from other classes. Wouldn't that be their mistake? I keep all my good drops for other classes, just in case I have good Gilga drops and I keep them without ever touching Gilga.

Well, they better start "abusing" it before it's gone to hit that Orn cap. That way they can open up their inventory to see a pretty number and still not do anything with it lol

[noble flower]

I personally already said I agree with nerfing it in endless, specifically what Gurnn suggested of disabling anguished summon stats there.

Problem is all the people who argue that the nerf should come from changing summon stats as a whole, or the anguish paths, since that would affect every other aspect of the game, where GSA lacks for the most part.

[tidal wyvern]

That would be AL problem. Before AL everybody play all classes pretty much. Or at low AL. But your AL - which is only end game loop - pretty much force you to play one class , if you are not massochist and don't AL everything. AL being whole account with higher price was also pretty often mentioned with its realease (together with cap) 3-4 years ago. 🤷‍♂️

[restive turtle]

and i bet people would still complain if ever gs mains can still make more orns cus and go more deeper than deity or other classes 😂

just delete the class twin ✌️😭💔🥀

[mossy portal]

Well, no one likes seeing 1 class be better than their own /joke

[lost lance]

I think people don't have a problem with GS going the deepest, they have a problem with it being able to go the deepest while also running higher anguish than any other class can

[stiff marsh]

I have a problem with anguish being purely beneficial to the class (in endless)

[tidal wyvern]

🤷‍♂️

[tight dagger]

Memory hunting would still make you plenty of orns and requires less events and investment to do so

On that note it gives you insane mat income as well and during a certain month long event you can get unlimited memory hunting currency almost for free XD

Repurposing endless for a different purpose other then orns while summoner still excels at it the most would makes more sense to me personally, give me random horde encounters or better event mob density I'd be happy and content with that, even if I'm not making orns I could farm events better at least XD

[velvet rock]

I've been playing for well over 4 years and I farm most events, I don't focus summoner gear because I'm not a summoner. I have some of it but there's definitely some gaps, and I don't check arcanists for event summons either.

I could still probably find a setup that would quadruple what I normally make in endless

[noble flower]

Ngl, the funniest part is that Odie still hasn't even adressed this thread in any way

[mossy portal]

Well this ironically came out 2 days after the GS "balance"

[tidal wyvern]

Not quadrouple - much more. You can take any gear as far as you anguish it. Base stats doesn't matter. Can be hydra staff and summoner equip from arena (huh, that will be me). And I'm at about 10bil orns/hour with my GS. But that is only cuz I'm mel20. If I was mel40 it would be double that. 🙂

EdiT: Why I get X from @mossy portal ? Cuz that's what I did. 😄

[stiff marsh]

ORN reps have come through and summarized, but literally nothing new has been brought up in the last 2 weeks

[velvet rock]

Your lived experience is a lie I guess

[restive turtle]

let's just say some classes are built for specific contents. What can you do when this class can snapshot better than other class simply because of its mechanics? Literally a unique petless class that mades snpashotting much better and max out orn gains simply because of its innate playstyle.

But sure ig, let deity be the best in every content and cry about on how hard it is to do this content (deity mains when they experience struggle for the first time)

and this just doesn't go for deity as well, pre ang 2.0 every people who wants efficiency for orn gains would simply swtich class for it. Not every class is built to be good at endless, the same goes for other contents. There's always gonna be a reason why that specific class can do more than the other.

gs is built that way for endless, even pre ang 2.0 gs was already doing this kind of feats getting 100m orns per kill on ang 50.

[lost lance]

No one would have a problem if gs could reach f800 in orn gear from normal gs setup shenanigans while other classes reach f500.

The problem is when other classes end their runs at much earlier floors than normal (say f200 for example) when they try to run ang 20 endless while gs still consistently reaches f800 or more at ang 20 endless.

[tight dagger]

I mean ang 1.0 we had people averaging billions of orns worldfarming, and it was much more efficient then endless back then 🤣

[tidal wyvern]

GS can be best in endless. But not 10x.

BeoA don't kill all raids under 10 sec. While other taking it 100 sec+.

Deity doens't make dungeons in 10 second, while other taking it 100 sec.

This is about the gap. Well, I have 700k ward, let give Gilga on same AL 7milion ward. It is ward class. Why it shouldn't be 10x btter than me?

[restive turtle]

but anyways at least 3 people would be happy for the endless changes. I can still farm orns without endless so this isn't gonna break my game.

let gs do non anguish endless and call it a day, easy fix and no complicated shenanigans

[mossy portal]

I mean

I hope the joke gets across, weird I have to say this every time

[noble flower]

As long as they don't kill the class everywhere else we're chill

[tidal wyvern]

So you are telling me GS pact can't do it same like this? 🙃

[tight dagger]

Think that's mainly a difference in games, I feel like endless is the sole orn gain in this game

While in HOA we have like 4 orn farming methods, each class excels at, and all do well enough to sustain an unreasonable amount of orns 😅

[velvet rock]

Yeah I dunno why we keep bringing hoa into this, it's a different game

[mossy portal]

Because it gets the same updates

[noble flower]

I mean, I hit cap a few times while duoing (it's not a double cast)

[tight dagger]

Cause we get the same updates as orna 🫠 any change like this would also effect our game

[restive turtle]

oof idk about that doe, deity dominates every content now. Especially with that 2000seals, just made raiding much more easier. Dungeons a lot better cus the t. mag nerf isn't really game breaking and still efficient in horde. Despair still good because you can do purple line in despair, pvp cus of sa3 on dursa and chakram om dara. Towers bl2 dara or any other 2h set up.

hmm pretty much every content deity checks out, even in endless it's 2nd to gs but sure ig let's make it number 1 in everything

[mossy portal]

Duo vs solo, idk seems a bit..non-comparable 🤔

Was a joke anyway

[restive turtle]

hmm I wonder why, every unwanted changes gets shoved into our mouth even if the majority of our community doesn't like it lol. No on gives a shit about our discussion in hoa, cus orna discussion would always get followed and prioritize more. It's gonna cater to this audience and whatever happens with the updates will get shoved into us. I do like some parallelism with the games but holy cornball with the updates.

[tight dagger]

As a summoner I wouldn't solo pumkinless

That thing is such a hard counter for us XD probably the 1 impossible raid to do in 1 session without long shenanigans

[mossy portal]

I wouldn't take GS in any place I could take ASG tbh

[noble flower]

I mean, here they were using Daggers since the Sphinx is stasis immune, and I’m actually nerfed there since I have one less summon slot

[mossy portal]

Duo 🥀 can't joke anywhere in Orna server

[tidal wyvern]

Deity wasnt 1st in everything even before nerf. 2000 is still something you can click every 5/6th round.

[noble flower]

How does it being duo benefit me? It's not as if we were doing duo BP or sum, plus I already explained why it actually nerfs me, since you lose a summon slot for HyPa

[mossy portal]

Thats a good question I dont know the answer to, ive said over and over it was a joke holy

[restive turtle]

nah there's no 6️⃣-7️⃣ (🫳🫴🫳🫴) turns after this