GSH Rework - H2 Balance & Mechanics

[bronze relic]

but tbh, im fine with gsh now my gsa does it better so don't really need gsh unless im doing wars or raids

[rose path]

No matter what

[rose path]

Yeah same, just tossing around ideas

[bronze relic]

if they wanted to make it actually good in horde that couldve been accomplished

been vocing it out like months ago in maincord and here

but just gave up

and accepted that it'd be just better to let it be strong in raids

[rose path]

Yeah yeah

[rose path]

But then deity comes in and is good at everything

But not complaining. I love gs

[bronze relic]

yeah lol

[bronze relic]

unfortunately xd

but hey they're gods

[rose path]

[signal oasis]

From actually dying more times that it actually saving me.

Its not the case for me

Noone is going to convince me that the "second chance if" passive is actually fair on a class that doesn't need more ways to kill summons.

[ruby raven]

Since this weapon is better suited for AOE raids

Ik this is funny to ask/suggest on my part but how I would change this weapon

Now
-60% pact dmg
-15% chain chance
-13 adorn slots

Later
-60% pact dmg
-15 adorn slots
-25% summon stats
Passive buff procs
T.def/T.res (5%)
T.def2/T.res2(3%)
Re-raise(1%)

Just so it's more of a tankier raid option and helps against AOE raids in which we suffer in, I think this would helps it's purpose more, by no means will it be meta just helpful enough for a very specific situation more

In all fairness as it's been said a lot hypa just isn't built for AOE really, it's a very bad semi AOE, so focusing it on a aspect it excels in makes the most sense to me, if we got debate 20% more pact for a total of 80% that would be cool too but that's kinda my thought process on it

[dusky ginkgo]

I’m a fan of some amount of summon stats + Reraise for summons xD

But I don’t think any of that feedback is bad

[ruby raven]

I mainly find the irony from this weapon's wanted purpose was for hypa as an AOE, into a weapon that does well against it

I think it would be hard to implement things on summons without dispurse or related things probably so I kinda gave up on that? Rather being able to proc it yourself and rhada pact it to save your ammo as the attempt to make up for it

But ofc if it could be coded on summons in fairness that's where it should be, it's just summons don't get a turn to use it manually, especially since even the khepers are very frail and prone to die a lot atm

[rose path]

Why tdef tres? U already get that from hypa. Id rather do t.mag+ and t.mag++

[ruby raven]

It would roll for those specific buffs more which highlights "more tankier raid option"

[rose path]

I see

[austere sedge]

Is a 5% re-raise when sacrificing a summon overpowered?

it could be cool

and really work with gsh sacrificing for gain playstyle

[ruby raven]

That's just complicating it tbh 😅

I threw re-raise in there as a passive proc for a nice rarity situation, not something to really be reliable as the buff itself is quite overturned realistically

The current changes I have suggested would be enough to make the weapon relevant for the situation you would use it in, and I think that's the main goal atm, is relevance somewhere for the decree, problems outside of the decree aren't my say so as I don't have much of an opinion on them

[austere sedge]

hmm i see

my plan was to add buffs in gsh temp buff pool so it's a bit unique

but i can see it being very complex

[bronze relic]

might be nice, but i doubt that it'll change much

if the auto summon is still gonna be 40% then you're just gonna be out of ammo

[ruby raven]

Decree has 1 turn khepers

It only needs to be tuned enough to make them tanky enough to survive while also keeping its caster alive

Which was the objective for me in the suggestion

[bronze relic]

hmm i see

[ruby raven]

It would be the counter for AOE raids, khepers would scale with ang at the very least, while being slighty more tanky yourself

[bronze relic]

im kinda stewpeed didn't see ur last msg over there, this is only for the raid side

thought it was for dungeons lol, anyways in that case ig it's not that bad a lil higher on the reraise chance might be gucci. you're constantly killing the chances of your 2nd chance when using hypa

[ruby raven]

And yes I am advocating the removal of chain and "hope" of hypa AOE builds, to make this something good for what hypa is good at, which is raids, and to cover a weakness in which we share, AOE raids

Solving that inconvenience would help a lot since it's kinda officially the raid class for GS lines

[bronze relic]

and a 60% auto summon % 😋

make gsh stronger

[ruby raven]

Tbh since not many people are using hypa as an AOE, I'd be down to just make it single target as well with the same dmg formula it has

It's not like we can't BL2/despair/mage dance/ect

And all of the above AOE's are easier to manage then hypa as one

(Even summons have better AOE)

[bronze relic]

nah but fr doe, why is it at only 40% at least make it 60%

[ruby raven]

It would make raids that summon not plummet our dmg either and solve more raiding problems as well

Decree would be the AOE raid solution

Hypa single target would fix our issues against raids that summon

2 birds 1 stone

[bronze relic]

or add items that would boost it rather changing it's innate 40% if they don't wanna go to that route

[ruby raven]

I think I'd be willing to sacrifice the second chance passive for 60% charon ritual chance

[austere sedge]

rework gsh

[ruby raven]

But yeah back to the raid portion

If decree solved AOE raid problems in a balanced way ofc ( as suggested above )

And if hypa wasn't AOE, but single target it would solve issues against raids that do summon

Then GSH would have a solution to every raid at least, while being niche at everything else at least which would be a decent enough state for GSH to be in compared to before where it wasn't even niche anywhere just bad 🤣

[bronze relic]

2nd chance barely does anything, it would've been better if your 100% soul passive would just drop to 0 when u proc it

but then again you're pretty fkd in pvp or towers lol

no soul passive on sight = death

but gsh only excel in raids anyway so ig it's fine

[ruby raven]

Bringing gsh into towers is a mistake in itself 🫂

[bronze relic]

true

[ruby raven]

Gsh can copy everyone that can use BL2/despair/magic AOE's in dungeons

Worldfarming it's probably? Pretty decent for a GS line, I think base GS will do better ofc single target

Raids it's great

Pvp probably the best GS line in pvp

Towers it's bad, very bad XD but with how it's passive works, kinda a no brainier?

At the very least the class is playable now

[dusky ginkgo]

Towers the class can BL2 through everything at shackled Ang 9 so far 🤷‍♂️ summons clean up the leftovers

Not as safe as GSA of course but functions fine

World farming with QStaff Pact + Offhand Spinal Whip or Final Decree and Chain Chance is actually pretty OK so far - albeit a chance at hitting all 3 is not as good as just hitting them all for Darkrifting

But I made 3500 Nurtured Nature during that event and leveled up Despair a few times 😂

[bronze relic]

bl2 gsa might probably be faster ngl

[dusky ginkgo]

BL2 on GSA is going to get zeroed at anguish

The summons could probably do it? I don’t GSA, I dunno

[ruby raven]

Worldfarming I'd leave it to base GS, bl2/despair of choice, scaling summons

It will do better^^^

High hp boss? Bloodpact

[ruby raven]

You'd be surprised but it actually doesn't

As a GSA main myself

[dusky ginkgo]

At what anguish and shackled?

I guess you don’t need to shackle for world farming but I always do 😅

[ruby raven]

Despair 9, shackled

I'm not doing bosses ofc, I can tell you yes it will 0 on a zerk fallen XD

Regular mobs, nah it won't+you have panda/jinn for cleanup if you even need it

Bl2 should work for GSA shackled till around despair 15ish

Then well you probably won't one shot and it probably won't be worth it anymore

That's when you switch to your base GS, same concept, different spec, summons will clean up cause they aren't locked to 80% summon stats permanently

( but ig that's way off topic sorry )

[bronze relic]

or just give gsh a 60% auto summon chance

couldn't hurt

deity is doing 100m+ dmg within 30secs

surely a +20% on auto summon chance wouldn't hurt the game

[ruby raven]

I think this would help the raid portions a lot, maybe not to a apex lvl, but it would be a lot of QOL

[unique shuttle]

It sucked so bad at torment20 for me

[unique shuttle]

Excuse you, I only take 20 secs

[ruby raven]

That's self torture 🥀

[unique shuttle]

I had to test

[bronze relic]

see, surely a 20% increase wouldnt hurt the game

[dusky ginkgo]

Consistent ammo would be silly in PvP

If we want to play broken classes, go play those classes 🥹

[bronze relic]

isnst ss3 first turn insta death silly?

and its always just firs turn in pvp or wars

[unique shuttle]

Not really, you still can die easily

[bronze relic]

besides gsh defense sucks anyways its not like an insta lose for the opposing sde

[unique shuttle]

I don't believe in gs defense. Not gsa, not gsh

[dusky ginkgo]

Of course we can but the inability to consistently follow up is one of the balancing points of HyPact PvP

But either way, my point stands. People that want to play broken stuff should play broken classes with that stuff and not try and add it elsewhere.

I used to really enjoy Heretic but Flask Power effects just sucked the life out of that for me which is a bit of a bummer because Flasks are neat

60% Autosummon is too high and while it would of course be better, classes that can do everything with no caveats are boring 🥲

[bronze relic]

i mean the class is basically 4 months out ive tried almost everything to make it fun and viable to some extent

and i found out its best to just stick to gsa xd

and use it for raiding only when i feel like it

[dusky ginkgo]

And I only GSH and find it, including its limitations, viable and fun

[bronze relic]

i mean as long it works in low ang ig

[dusky ginkgo]

There’s plenty of proof in this thread and across discord that it still obliterates high anguish raids

And I’m happy to accept the challenge of pushing high anguish elsewhere as I get there

We’ve seen videos of Anguish 20+ Melancholy tank builds blazing through and Agony 30+ Speed kills

Ancient is at Agony what? 60? And still using it

Which most players won’t even get to for a while but if that isn’t considered high anguish and viable, I don’t know what is

[unique shuttle]

"blazing through" is a VERY bold statement

[ruby raven]

Especially the melancholy part XD

Maybe the raids I'd believe for sure no doubts about GSH raid capabilities

[dusky ginkgo]

The video I referred to was a guy running BL2 and using HyPact just to get buffs

And either way, increasing CR chance doesn’t help with dungeons/horde stuff while also making the class less interesting. Of course it’s stronger

[ruby raven]

Helping it with horde stuff I think is no longer a goal really 😅

It can do horde stuff, carbon copy of most other classes but it can do horde stuff

Increasing CR rate wasn't neccesarily my objective either but it most certainly would help to increase it to 50% so it's down to a coin flip at least, and when it does fail, well you have to use a turn to summon still

and as I said If it were up to me I'd rather hypa be single target so it's excels better in raids that do summon

While decree gets adjusted to be for AOE raids focusing on a tankier aspect for your ammo and yourself ( while having much less output )

[dusky ginkgo]

Of course it would help 🤷‍♂️ but that’s something that could maybe be added with gear down the road. Just giving it innately is less interesting

When t10 was released all classes had maluses they had to work around via gear or playstyles and very few of those remain. Objectively 40% autosummon isn’t even a malus, but it’s more in line with that and thus more interesting - and more importantly, more balanced despite high damage output

[unique shuttle]

As long as we get one way or another to play around with cr. Be it new gear or adorns

[dusky ginkgo]

I recognize I’m probably a shrinking minority that misses the need to build around such strengths and weaknesses but I have a class that is very much in that boat of flexible and interesting to work with and I don’t want to lose yet another to the power creep 😂

In the end though, I’m sure Odie has data on how the class does and who knows what crazy things we will or won’t see in the future

[dusky ginkgo]

a gait or stance on a 2H weapon that increased CR at the cost of defenses or hp could be an interesting tradeoff

Or more double summon chance stuff

[unique shuttle]

The bonus has to be good to sacrifice celestial

[dusky ginkgo]

Again, probably minority opinion, but straight CR increase on gear or adorn is the second most boring way to go about it

First would just be buffing the passive

A weapon with 60-80% Pact Damage but gave a stance to get CR up 20%ish would at least be interesting with the tradeoffs

The double trouble of gear I suppose is that only GSH benefits from it unlike something like Pact damage or Summon stats

Which is where Double Summons Chance solves that issue by helping all of the summoner classes

[ruby raven]

I mean I main GSA for just about everything XD talk about strengths and weaknesses, I have about 4 different builds per activity

Except my builds are a bit more complicated then just gear, summons and their stats/movesets are also taken into consideration, and some summons even have mechanics you yourself have to work around

I understand the concept of having fun with builds and a class in general, but personally GSH has always been quite a unfun time for me, even now it still feels like it wants to be a mage but fails at that task outside of raids, and even in raids, I do prefer my base GS cause hypa is just less interesting BP

That's mainly how I feel about GSH but I do try to keep a open mind and share what I think would be enjoyable despite me not quite liking it's playstyle as much it is a GS line

[dusky ginkgo]

That’s me on GSH with lots of builds and I don’t super care for GS or GSA 😅 as sitting behind meat shields isn’t how I want to play - and still bad memories of fighting against all the summoners on release 😂 😂

In the end, even if I disagree with y’all about things, I do try to compile and link big discussion topics with lots of players in them for Orn feedback stuff

[ruby raven]

I think GSH would have been more interesting to me if it did have ascended summons

But it doesn't, and that limits a lot of builds and concepts GSH could've had, especially with it actually being good with bloodpact without dungeon snapshotting shenanigans

It feels incredibly boring for GSH to only be good with 1 pact (again), and everything else is kinda just as it was already, viable but subpar

Introduction of new pacts would be wonderful, and summons that synergize better with the class, but it's so bare bones rn that it doesn't offer a lot tbh

[dusky ginkgo]

I mean, my Bloodpact hits 2x as hard on GSH as GS if I’m willing to manually cast summons and lineup same buffs on both despite having significantly less summon HP

But of course HyPact is just better

Shackled Agony 13

This is also where I find use for the sacrificing pacts especially now that they proc buffs

[ruby raven]

I find use for sacrifice pacts as GSA

Raids/dungeons mostly XD ofc would most definitely appreciate a pact that kills highest hp summon

[unique shuttle]

You need more als than shackled at 13 for gs bp to be good

[dusky ginkgo]

Of course

But even 13 is still higher than many players and BP still works is more my point with that

Highest HP summon sac pact sounds really nice for utility

[unique shuttle]

Agg endless qol

[austere sedge]

i will share my wise thoughts again

rework gsh

[ruby raven]

BP works and being good are two different meanings

I don't think we are in disagreement

More of GSH can only mainly deal dmg with hypa

Bloodpact just isn't "good" on GSH, and pretty far from, charon ritual alone makes set up 2x longer then you would set up on GS

Then if we speak 0 agony, base GS has more good raid options then GSH in reality

Gsh just doesn't have that build diversity I strive for being around multiple things

Like GSA/GS can provide, since both can build around summons AND self efficiency

Gsh can only focus on self efficiency and it only has 1 way of doing so 90% of it's builds, which was exactly before it's entire rework

That's just my full opinion on GSH as a whole

[dusky ginkgo]

I’m not sure I agree with base GS having more raiding options unless you’re specifying different summons more than anything else. Heretic level magic + not needing to manage mana and blue line is very try flexible in itself

Not to mention, as hilarious as it is, being able to swash 😂 and yes it can raid for some silly numbers

And yeah Bloodpact setup takes longer but not as long as you’d think with not bringing the group summons along

Perhaps a moot point in that HyPa is usually more efficient for time but there are quite a few raid builds that still have decent TTK/DPS at Ang0

I think, and I’ve said it before, GSH might need people to think more of mage first and summoner second to see the flexibility it provides 😅 Although I recognize not everyone will jive with this playstyle, I also don’t jive with GSA’s playstyle so it’s kinda how Celestials go

[austere sedge]

i don't like how gsh is mage not thief

if gsh was thief it would've been way cooler

with lot more potential

[ruby raven]

Base GS can ultima at agony 0, bloodpact, and access to that 50% dark/holy passive for diversity, while also using summons for sigils and blights, debuffs, dmg output

It has access to at least 4 viable self dmg raid builds ( QC ultima being one of our fastest to date especially low agony )

8+ raid builds with summons ( mind you it's only 20% less summon stats then GSA )

While having summon protection chance to top that off^^^

Then it also gets ascended summons so while it loses ultima in the long run it gets that quad scaling BP

And for other contents other then raids, your summons ACTUALLY can clean up unlike GSH, a 120% summon stat difference without talking AL or spec

Base GS probably has the most build diversity of all its classes actually

GSA it's mainly just where you draw the line at viable

GSH it's that same cycle, hypa for dmg or buffs on every build, gear may change but concept won't, and that's the main boring part to me, summons barely hold weight if any in that process

[austere sedge]

gs could also work well with status builds

in pve

ofc excluding few enemies and raid

sometimes good in pvp too

[ruby raven]

You and your status relationship 🫂 it's okay we can be delulu together

[austere sedge]

it's real trust me

I'm trustworthy

[bronze relic]

pretty sure i can play my class, it's just that gsh sucks at high ang except raids. Like there's no flexibility in gsh. Focus on being a tank and you'd spend more time killing the raid and especially when u need to farm a lot of ang proofs. if Ultima isn't dead at high ang base gs would probably smoke, but if you're high al and high ang bp would slap just fine. Gsh is just good in raids, u can bl2 but past 20 u gonna have to start praying.

[dusky ginkgo]

With the elemental weakness rework, I’m not sure GS’s magic stat even with the 50/50 can match the output of a lined GSH rocking two Chargeblades albeit less relevant for smaller raids but GSH can Ultima on par with Heretic. But because GS doesn’t line and Chargeblade magic is so low, that’s a damage disparity

Again, can still Bloodpact (I used on summoning raids primarily)

And yeah HyPa does it all but there are still options

Buuuut, yeah, alright, GS has more. I don’t disagree

[ruby raven]

But that was just my opinion sorry we got off topic, I don't mean harm

I value everyone's opinion, and people actually liked GSH before it's rework, everyone has their own experiences and POV's that's fine

I'll throw my input when I think it would be a fun concept really, no harm to anyone that already enjoys the class of course

[dusky ginkgo]

Then play GSA and GS on non-raid/other content? Not every celestial needs to be meta and a half at every piece of content, yeah?

[austere sedge]

only way i can see gsh getting better is cr related buff /gear and more pact gears (maybe cc or other stuff too)

and better survivability passive

current second chance is very bad

because it doesn't leave much option for next turn

[dusky ginkgo]

Current Second Chance is fine

Of course it could be better (this is also noted in summary)

[austere sedge]

if it didn't limit my options on next turn yeah

[dusky ginkgo]

But the poor RS or GS/A don’t even get those next turns

No, I hear you, I get it

It’s definitely one of the weaker second chances

(Still fine IMO) but weaker

Anyway, pleasure chatting yall, keep er rolling as you please

But it is 2am here and I need to go to work in 5 hours

[ruby raven]

But way back here XD

This is kinda my final opinion on final decree as a whole tbh, I do feel like this change would be a huge QOL for GSH raiding against AOE raids

Gsh as a class my outlook isn't there but as new things come out for GSH I'll happily try it out and give it a fair shot as a GSH

[bronze relic]

thats what im doing, just saying gsh is only good in raiding

but there's thing that i dont understand, why are these updates or changes in the game is hinting that gsh should be played horde when its been out for about 4 months and its a known fact that gsh is only a good raider. Stop pumping out these updates to make "horde" better, cus truth be told even at 100% chain chance gsh is not gonna be good at any other content except raiding. And even raiding is not that good at all i barely get my 2nd chance procced and its a hassle to farm a morri and last martyr gears.

60% sounds reasonable yeah?

40% is way too low, i really dont care aobut the horde aspect of gsh rn and ive tested every other build to make gsh fun but how can versatility or flexability exist outside of raiding when the class can't sustain enough ammo for horde dungeons, towers aren't good because chain chance hitting 3 enemies isnt guranteed let alone the ammo problem, and also despair content.

this is a class built for about 4 months to specialized in horde yet it shined in raiding

besides, bumping it up to 60% would possibly open a window for some builds

gsh can only bl2 and past 20 its utterly useless, if u try to make gsh good in raiding more by bumping the auto summon to 60% then dgns and other horde content is gonna be great too. It's not like 60% would let u spam after spam after spam

dont really care if they change the innate passive to 60% or let u be able to get 60 by items or amity, as long u can bump it up to 60%

2nd chance aint shit too btw, u are killing your own chances of proccing it, maybe a higher % of auto summon would at least allow u to get some decent chances. at least while killing your summosn there's a 60% chance that your skellies would just pop out and help your ass to not get popped into the abyss

build diversity would be hypa being able to sustain itself in horde not taking 4min in 1 dugeon with low anguish, there are fun builds and practical builds i would like a build that works and it is fun if its actually viable. I could just make a thinblade build for gsh for fun but that wouldnt be practical would it?

if there's flexebility then i'd say that goes to heretic, flasks and vesta seems fun to me practical and still fun gsh couldve been the same but its just ooga booga hypa hehe ooga

anw that's only my concern, change auto summon to 60% then we'll see

besides if im really playing for meta i wouldn't be maining gs, I'd be on deity spamming eventualus and bl2.

[unique shuttle]

I feel attacked lmao, but fair enough

[bronze relic]

nah u gucci xd

look how good gsh is un horde when u can still get t. all +++

and consistent t. mags xd

was so sure that it would go crazy once the release is out

but eh at least it's good in raids ig

still don't know why t. all +++ got reduced to t. all+ xd, was working perfectly fine xd

and also said it in other rework threads that it needed that to compensate for the lack of pet access but eh ppl said it was "broken" lololol never saw gsh shined in horde again lmao

[rose path]

Yes its the usual gs hate

Deity can onehit high ang raids with 360m damage, but oh no, gsH cant have better t.buffs

Thats forbidden

@quick girder

[unique shuttle]

Exaggeration

[rose path]

No its not an exaggeration

Its reality that i witnessed myself when doing duo raiding

Dude was literally like "oh lol 360 mil"

[unique shuttle]

"duo raiding"

😹

[rose path]

Uh and?

Its regrettable that you dont see a problem here

[unique shuttle]

And having al140 player as a benchmark is ridiculous

[rose path]

I mean lower al people can put out 160~ish mil when solo

[unique shuttle]

😹

[rose path]

Yeah we're done, im not continuing this discussion

🫡 👋

[unique shuttle]

I sure hope so

[rose path]

Back to the topic of gsh
Not saying gsh should be able to get t.all+++ and be the almighty class, but a good solution could be a slightly higher "souls %", like 120 or 130%

Or ability to get t.all+++ but it would last on base 1 turn, extendable by buff duration amities/adorns to 2 or maybe 3 turns

Just like deity's neutra manyalus short duration

[signal oasis]

Can we please stop saying second chance ans call it what it is. Second chance IF.

The intervening If clause is what makes it soemthing almost any GS would rather replace it with anything els.

😅 im a GSH MAIN. As in unless im doing fringe content or looking for more VD or specifically more memory hunt rewards ect. I will not touch another class.

Like endless, for orns gsa. Vd my little magistrate, memory hunts, beo with memory pet.

But endless for ego gsh, towers gsh, dungeons gsh, raids you guessed it gsh. Pmuch any content im seriously playing for fun, gsh. Hence I care so much about the synergy that for the most part isnt there.

[rose path]

Thats what games are about. Fun

[signal oasis]

Second chance passive needs to go, or be reworked. Yes 40% is too low, should it be changed? No not in my opinion. Wev never had a spec, there could very easily be a

pact damage 40% CR 15% .
Spec, with no passive that has 
Summon Totem(totem summon stats scale from pact damsge not summon stat):  [Cannot be sacrificed. Fails if a totem is already active]
 gains stacks of hydrus upon other summons dying. At 10 hydrus stacks sacrificed summons have 50% chance to spawn undead.(ability Superceded if CR procs)

Totem casts various ward, & perm buffs, and can gain debuffs from player removing them. quality of buffs given scale with hydrus stacks. 1-4 stacks temp :su: , 4-9 temp :du:  perm :su:  10 stacks temp :du:  perm:du:  upon dying totem reflects total damage dealt back to attacker. ```

Or even make specific totems. Like a totem that scales summon stats based on pact damage instead of summon stats. Giving blood pact more agency.

[rose path]

You mean like a summoned totem?

Or what do you mean by that

[signal oasis]

blood totem: summon stats scale of summoners pact damage, additionally allows blood magic to hit up to 3 extra targets. Can be summons at 5> hydrus. When the totem is at 5 hydrus stacks, pacts can crit.

Elysian totem: can be summoned at 10> hydrus, pacts deal additional damage to enemies weak, or resistant holy/dark. And deals weakness damage to enemies immune to holy/dark.
At 10 stacks elemental magic matching current faction drain summon HP instead of mana and scale with pact damage.

Totems themselves cannot be sacrificed but theres a LARGE incentive to destroy them or they can be opressive on the receiving end.

Totems scale their summon stats based on summoners pact damage and are summoned with ward proportional to their Summon stats. Ward similar to atlas stance where theres no countdown its just ward until depleted.

Hydrus just needs a spec that isn't random stuff that has nothing to do with GS. This kind of spec could be used on all GS class and opens the whole tree to actual class diversity. As blood pact GSA or even GS mains could become viable not just as niche ultima bait/blood pact high AL Ang crutches.

Totems would be quite a bit weaker on GS and GSA but the fact the totem itself gains stacks when summons die means running the more niche case summons on GSA instead of big chunky summons is viable.

Of course, ^ this suggest is pushed to hell and would be hyper unbalanced, and easily meta. But the point is, please get rid of IF clause on our second chance, or remove it and give us a spec that fills our needs. Because BENE is not the "summoner spec" its the GSA GS spec.

[rose path]

Wow u got actually some pretty good ideas

Love it

Dude create a separate thread, this is gonna get lost here

[rose path]

"Most effective when hydrus passive is active"

(The souls thing on gsh)

[austere sedge]

i had a question

does cr summon after our turn or before our turn?

or both

[rose path]

Yes

[austere sedge]

wdym yes

@rose path explain!!! 🙏

[rose path]

Yeah exactly

[austere sedge]

eh

[ruby raven]

After

[austere sedge]

hmm i see

so second chance can proc even if i consumed all my summons

right?

@ruby raven help

[ruby raven]

No

[austere sedge]

how

[ruby raven]

No summons, no second chance

[austere sedge]

if cr summon after turn i should get summon for second chance

[ruby raven]

If you have summons= second chance

No summons=no second chance

[austere sedge]

let's say i had 2 summon and i used hypa and my turn end (so cr proc and summon) so when enemy atk me i should get second chance

[ruby raven]

If CR procs after you used them then well you have summons for Second chance in that scenario

[austere sedge]

because cr summoned for me

[austere sedge]

it never happened for me so I'm little doubtful

[dusky ginkgo]

Yes. It is a low chance unless you get a barrel of summons off the proc but I’ve had it proc a handful of times in PvP

[austere sedge]

hmm so it is possible

cool

[dusky ginkgo]

Also- unrelated to that:

I think if Final Decree had Anguish summon stat scaling I’d actually use it a fair bit. 65% Buff Duration with all 13 Slots full of Orichalcum Mortars is worth the 40% Pact damage loss to me off of a Celestial Staff or Celestial Staff + Nekro Staff 😅

It’s not as quick of course but keeping buffs up forever and a day is pretty nice

[austere sedge]

CR summoning after our turn ends has a single flaw, and that's that the enemy can kill our summon, which makes GSH worse in Horde.

[dusky ginkgo]

Yeah I have no illusion about GSH being strong in Horde

[unique shuttle]

It's more than 40% pact loss

[austere sedge]

i donno I'm not fan of that weapon because i was hoping for cr weapon but it's undoubtedly good if you don't have celestial pact staff

[dusky ginkgo]

Yeah I’m aware just not the exact math

Since I don’t tend to run Limit Breaks, hitting 9,999,999 is plenty

[austere sedge]

I'm just pointing out another reason for why gsh is bad in horde

that i just realized

[dusky ginkgo]

And I can achieve that with the Final Decree + Arisen Rift Summoner Helmet

[tardy trail]

Summon stats scaling for?

Since you’re using HyPa

Just for qol, so they don’t die from AoE attacks and so?

[austere sedge]

maybe survivability of summons

[dusky ginkgo]

Keeping summons alive to AoE since that was my understanding of the intent of the weapon, yeah

Truthfully dunno if that would be enough to do it, but it's a thought on paper 😂

In the meantime, I want a second Ornate Decree. It's a decent Chain chance weapon for world farming too

[austere sedge]

i think it was for horde because summon are Horde and has second chance and weapon has cc

and cc was buffed too

so it make sense

[ruby raven]

It's simply better built for AOE raids then dungeons imo

[austere sedge]

yeah

I'm talking about intent but it's good for aoe raids

funny because that's what happened to gsh

now gsh weapon

lol

[dusky ginkgo]

Heh, I mean, my understanding was it was intended to provide a side-grade to chain chance/AoE raid options. If it was truly just for horde, Summon Khepirs probably needed to swap out for a Despair-esque option to support HyPact

I actually like the weapon in the current form. It doesn't quite keep summons alive from Scruug's despair though

[ruby raven]

Not saying you can't build it for dungeons just tuning it for a raid weakness would be more impactful then trying to fix a flawed mechanic already

[austere sedge]

dw i understood

[dusky ginkgo]

It's also entertaining in Blades of Finesse 😂 not GOOD but entertaining

Do you want a 2 turn limit? TOO BAD!

[ruby raven]

A chunk of summon stats would help save your summons though and make this weapon a stable for AOE raids at least

[dusky ginkgo]

Throw down Khepirs turn 1 and cause complete chaos to the "two turns" half damage rules

[dusky ginkgo]

Yeah, that's my opinion as well

It sorta reminds me of an Arisen Imagination - not necessarily strong but I wouldn't call it weak either and I enjoy it

And lots of Adorn slots to boot

[austere sedge]

imagination can arise? (it is the worst joke i made)

(nvm it's not even a joke it's just dumb statement)

[ruby raven]

30% summon stats? And then it scaling should help a lot, adorns up to the beholder

[dusky ginkgo]

25-33% would be solid IMO

The Ymir Beithr stick is also 33% iirc

By that same token, I think 10% Summon Stats would make the Ruiarc gear a bit more interesting to try out too though that feels less of a GSH move

[ruby raven]

Tbh I don't think ruiarc gear provides much outside the horde bonus%

It would need a overhaul to really be used outside of that ( realistically double summon chance doesn't do much for any GS line )

[dusky ginkgo]

On the flipside, I think Double Summon Chance is Odie's attempt at not doing "Charon's Ritual" specific stuff but something that could benefit all of summoner in certain context

(I could be wrong of course)

[ruby raven]

Tbh I'd take summon AI on it lol, or hmm 🤔 maybe just a nice -1 turns

Double summon just isn't that appealing, especially if it takes 4+ turns to get a full set of summons out depending on the Summon

Flipside if it was toned for GSH, I think chain chance would be appealing on it or just in general temp buffs to add to the arsenal

But back to decree, some summon stats on it would make it worth it, as long as the little guys can live scrugg/mightiest/cade

We'd probably call it happy then

[dusky ginkgo]

They at least survive Ptah/Arisen 😄

But ye

[austere sedge]

those summon have second chance so i thought their survivability wasn't bad

against aoe

am i somehow wrong

[ruby raven]

Their second chance doesn't proc often unfortunately 😅

[austere sedge]

oo

[ruby raven]

I'm often left with 0 alive 😔 and the gilded doesn't survive long enough to make use of re-raise either

[austere sedge]

reraise on gsh is a joke

reraise should be on weapon

instead through summon

[unique shuttle]

That's interesting

Wouldn't work against me of course

But it's interesting

[kind summit]

why that? i am using it on gsh and it works pretty well

[austere sedge]

i kill summon when i see them and i think that's the case of most ppl

but if you save glided kheper then there is a chance you can utilize reraise

[kind summit]

ah, my bad, i am using the sandals 😅 not the kheper summon

[ruby raven]

Sandals teaches re-raise to all summons, but rare does your summons get a turn to use re-raise and even if they do it's likely they'll target another summon before you and thats the main reason re-raise doesn't work well for GSH as a whole

It's a very niche situation where "if" it did proc on you it would be cool but thats a rare occasion unless you give your summons 3-4 turns each time they are alive ( and that's if enemies don't kill them )

[austere sedge]

since gsh is dependent on summon for reraise it's inferior

in comparison of other classes

because reraise on you isn't guaranteed

[rose path]

Gsh has 2nd chance

Many other classes dont

[austere sedge]

so they also don't have any survivability passive that actually synergize with them right?

[austere sedge]

yeah community favorite second chance that's the best thing happened to gsh

[rose path]

Uh, 2nd chance?

Again

[austere sedge]

you made me confused

[rose path]

Ok

[austere sedge]

plague

[ruby raven]

Every class has second chance now

[unique shuttle]

Rs

[earnest mulch]

Gimme mystic feather instead 😭

[austere sedge]

someone with same opinion as me!?

i thought i was the only one who wanted mystic feather like passive

[ruby raven]

Mystic feather wouldn't be a bad replacement for the second chance "if" lol

[rose path]

Honestly a 50% of autosummon would be good

[signal oasis]

If double summon chance was 40% hell even 25% ruric gear would have a spot.

But 7% isnt doinf much unless you bake 43% double summon chance into GS, 53% GSA and 33 into GSH as passives. Thats the only way the 7% from ruric actually makes sense.

[rose path]

What do you think guys:

GsH will no longer be generating random t.buffs out of nowhere by using hypa, instead GSH would have a 25% chance to gain t.buffs from the sacrificed summon's buff-skill pool list. That would mean if you equip arisen aaru robe, adding great meditation to your summon's skill pool, you would have 25% chance to get t.mag+++, or reraise from the new osiris aaru boots, upon sacrificing but this can be added only to summons which have buffing skills in their skill-pool (for example it wouldnt work on summon dead summons)

Now:
GSH would have slightly changed charon ritual II 35% autosummon chance +25% double summon chance+ the buff absorb function

By changing randomly generated t.buffs to what i proposed would make summon dead/vss no longer viable because they dont have skill-buffs in their skill pool (more profitable would be khepers), meaning on average less summons on your field but then you would actually have influence on what t.buffs you actually want cast in your fights.

Addition:

Maybe then final decree would actually come to use more because of the 1 turn kheper summon

And ofc remove 2nd chance from GSH, add elysian feather - increases dodge chance when summons are sacrificed, and reduce GSH hp stat by 2000 hp

And obviously nerf reraise, making it a slightly weaker 2nd chance, 40% to save you from death

[austere sedge]

wait wdym by reduce 2000 hp?

i like the idea (but i really don't care about double summon)

and i want current auto summon slightly buffed

[ruby raven]

Even if double summon was 100%

No summon stats makes it useless for anguish content, gsh wouldn't use double summon chance when we have charon ritual, and you wouldn't need to double summon undead/most horde summons

Base GS/GSA also don't need double summon chance especially without summon stats, and even with anguish off, you'd be better off switching into ruric gear for the horde bonus then anything else it does offer, and if you have a celestial weapon with 5 salamon, you'd likely never use the ruric gear, not only is it ONLY good for dungeons but it's just very bad, not a armor set to start with in any content for any summoner

[signal oasis]

Ah

[signal oasis]

Here's my final stab "second change if" rework. Switch it with
soul bond: damage taken is shared with all summons. 25% chance to block 100% of hp damage taken. Additionally blood pacts gain 8% chain chance per summon being sacrificed.

[rapid panther]

you are onto something

i wouls say blood and hydrus pacts (technically they are different)

[rose path]

Ayyy that is quite good tbh

But also... why not add a passive +25% chain damage chance for all attacks on GsH?🧐

But as for 2nd chance, really i think mystical feather 60% dodge increase based your summon sacrificing imo is a good direction too, since gsh is a thief gear using class

[austere sedge]

chain chance is good but it doesn't fix the split aoe issue

the damage feels lacking when you hit 3 enemies(against bosses)

[signal oasis]

This is sadly intentional

[signal oasis]

Let me clarify. What i mean by this is, "blood pact pay hit up to 3 additional. blood pact gains chain chance 8% for each summon being sacrificed."

I feel like i botched that the first time after rereading it.

So blood pact is our actual AOE, and hypact is our single target that also has false AOE essentially its meant for raiding.

Let's face it, GS is the blood pact summoner, GSA is summon damage. And GSH is pact/player damage but only honestly works well with less than half the pacts.

[ruby raven]

Or make hypa the intended AOE, and fix bloodpact to actually work on GSH XD

Whether that's a passive fix ( charon ritual ) or giving it ascended summons

But atm I kind think the GSH being good at dungeons has been thrown out the original goal by now, and just a solid raiding class

[void scaffold]

That'd be one thing to find out. The concept started as a horde class, became a fast raider and now we'd have to check what concept is preferred by the majority🤔

[rose path]

Imo in order for GsH become good at horde:

Either add a passive +25% chain damage chance to GsH, or make hypa I hit 4-5 targets and charon ritual 50% autosummon chance

[fierce crag]

I don't think that hitting more enemies helps at all if the aoe damage formula for hypa is unchanged.
Moreover, the current mechanic would lead to sacrifying 4-5 summons, which implies a huge damage buff against single enemies (which would be too much imo)

[rose path]

Or change the hypa formulas to something like this.

Hypa I - does more damage when there are multiple enemies on the field, +x % per enemy, but does significantly less damage to 1 target. Has base 40% chain damage chance

Hypa II - damage to 1 target stays same as now, but damage to multiple targets is significantly lower

[ruby raven]

I'm also not a huge fan of making hydrus pact good at hordes and raids at the same time 😅

It's gotta be one or the other to be balanced, if meant for horde, bloodpact would have to be adjusted for raids on GSH, if for raids then hydrus pact achieves what it's meant to do

Also changing bloodpact formula fixes most headaches in the future, alongside makes pact class actually excel at using pacts and not just limited to 1 type of pact

But that also includes overhaul of hydrus pact and bloodpact, possibly small GSH changes

So we are kinda at the point, do we want GSH as it is now? Or do we want GSH to be good at hordes while sacrificing some of its raid power potentially most of its raid power?

[void scaffold]

I mean we could just take a shot here i guess

[austere sedge]

if formula is changed a way so it's not worse at raid and the split isn't making dgn near impossible it will be a lot better

[tardy trail]

GSA is going to remain as the better and preferred horde option, so I don’t see the point of changing GSH now, given how it excels at raiding

You might end up going from a class that is great at raiding and bad at horde to a class that is mid at both, with GSA still being the better option

[austere sedge]

what's the problem with gsh being good raid and decent horde option?

[tardy trail]

I personally don’t want to sacrifice some of its raid power for it to still be worse than GSA at horde

If it’s possible to make it somewhat better at horde without nerfing its raiding, then perfect

But if that’s not possible, I’d rather it stays as is

[austere sedge]

then why even keep hypa as aoe

when it's unusable as aoe

changing hypa in live was worst

maybe reducing offense other way would've been better

[bronze relic]

just stop putting updates on gsh about its horde capability when its evident that its strong suit is raiding like i dont get it. Is the devs giving hope or rage baiting at this point, because when people and i call out on how to make it better for horde suddenly the idea is scrapped due to it being a strong raider already and it would make it only broken for raiding even more. Like i dont get that chain chance, is it suppose to do anything? when hypa is only outputting 66.7% of its damage compared to beta, its still missing that 33.3%. And how can it be a good horde class if the dmg split is so ass u can't even kill a zerk mob or just a tanky one, once u hit all 3 they are either almost close to dying or not gonna die.

disregard chain chance

[rose path]

I suspect its because of the usual GS hate

I dont see anyone complaining about sharpen III+reraise raiding on base deity hitting 300m in 5 turns

[bronze relic]

disregard any future updates about on the horde content, if the devs wanted it to excel on horde it wouldve been done sooner but no people already like it as it is. And for those people in here, stop asking it to be a horde machine the devs doesnt wanna pursue that route there's countless suggestions for it to be better on horde, but that would make it "too boring" according to some people in here.

[bronze relic]

yeah

deity can do everything at this point

raid + dungeons

pvp

anything basically

when u point this out, people will start saying b-but don't compare classes

[rose path]

This

Im not saying deity should be nerfed tho, anyways i dont see how
Unless they nerf beastfelled cuirass to sharpen II and nerf reraise to 30% revive chance

Oh god here he comes

[austere sedge]

if there is no point in horde content then gsh is complete ig

[rose path]

Hello Plague

[austere sedge]

maybe cr

[bronze relic]

like whats the point actually, do we or do we not want to make it better? at the end of the day it's gonna be an easy grind for everyone. This game is not one of those classic mmorpg's where it forces u to party play and play different roles to sustain that said party in order to progress. Each and every class in this game are capable to clear contents on its own to some extent. At this point just make it better for each and every class that way u can farm and grind the game with the playstyle that suits you. You can already borrow and use skills from other classes and u can even make it more powerful even if its not your innate skill or bound to your class' skill tree.

[austere sedge]

not sure

[rose path]

Tbh there is no need for gsh to be good at horde
Gsa is doing an amazing job at it

[rose path]

This

[austere sedge]

i wanted gsh to be good in horde because hypa is aoe but now i donno

cc is interesting but not enough

[bronze relic]

they say they want challenge but all i can see is clearing on low anguish like 15 below, if u guys are seeking for challenge make sure that what you're asking for and seeking for is not only functional but optimal. I could do ang 15 thinblade gsh but would that be optimal? i dont think so

[austere sedge]

flaws have been pointed out many many times so now there is actually nothing left to discuss

and we still don't have any good change for gsh

so eh

[rose path]

Yeah

Rly easy solution would be to just do it with gsa lol

[bronze relic]

yeah thats why there's no point in doing horde with gsh when u can do it better using gsa, ive brought up points here like ages ago to make gsh a better at clearing horde but somehow that's gonna be "too boring" and no "fun" because you're gonna be strong and actually optimal for farming

bottom line, just let it be a raid machine and make 2nd chance much better or change it to something better don't pursue gsh being a horde machine cus auto summon % is too low to sustain and support horde playstyle

[rose path]

Because spamming bl2 is so nice

[rose path]

@brave shard hey i hope this is a relevant ping:
I found some support for Elysian Feather instead of Summon based Second Chance.
Elysian Feather: boost dodge up to 60% based on how many summons you sacrificed.

Reasoning: GsH uses thief gear, so thiefy things like "Feather" stuff could be a very good replacement for current GsH 2nd chance

[brave shard]

@dusky ginkgo

[rose path]

Would you consider adding this to some GsH related ORN list?

Thanks

[brave shard]

Hes probably not awake now but i dont play GSH

I was mostly referring to ping in the event feedback discussion but still relevant can point to the right person

[rose path]

Alright good to know thanks

[void scaffold]

Before putting stuff on an ORN list how does 'some support' look like?
We can always discuss it here too. So how would it work? From your description it reads like a one time boost for the turn right after you sacced stuff?

[rose path]

Same principle as mana feather

Just replace "mana used" with "summons sacrificed"

For H.corvus its written "Your chance to dodge attacks increases as mana is spent.", for GsH it would directly correllate to the %souls

With the 100% souls being the cap for GsH, so the max effectiveness of Elysian Feather would be achieved at 100% souls

[void scaffold]

To my understanding mana feather becomes stronger the less mana you have, hence if you refill your mana it becomes worse thus min maxing mana is necessary.
Tying Elysian Feather to Hydrus would make it a permanent dodge buff over the course of the battle no?

[rose path]

Yep

The point being "up to 60%" which would mean that you would need some of your own dex=dodge for that to work well

Considering that gsh is generally quite squishy, and it doesnt have steadfast, with common builds for raiding imo it would be a great replacement for summon based 2nd chance

And that t.dex+++ from HyPa would finally be much more effective

[void scaffold]

So why not simply tie it to Hydrus, 5% per 10%Soul stack?

Or 6% if that matters.

[rose path]

Thats exactly what i meant 🙂

[austere sedge]

i think if we follow that route then gsh wouldn't get 60% dodge (because it's kind of permanent)

and might get nerfed

and giving a class 60% dodge permanently is too much

like other mystic feather passive gsh should get most dodge when it has no summon and as summon increases dodge decreases

[dusky ginkgo]

Would capping it at 50% be a fair middle ground? Less dodge overall but more than base 40%?

Would also give Sac Pact 2 a use for quick dodge setup 🤔

[austere sedge]

if merr idea doesn't get nerfed when it's implemented then it's good (but considering past updates it might get nerfed and because of permanent dodge it is asking for it)

[dusky ginkgo]

Yeah I understand his thing and I agree giving a basically Dorado passive for free would need a nerf

Hence my question- would a 50% dodge rate that was flat I.E 10% stronger than all out dex can get you still be too much?

But I’m with Kaine, what is the support for such an idea? Can we get that discussion rolling here?

So something like:

Current Second Chance 10% per summon —> 5% Dodge Chance per summon killed up to 50%?

[dusky ginkgo]

@brave shard I defer to you on PvP ramifications of something like this

[brave shard]

It would depend on how fast it charged

60% dodge is super OP

mystic feather is very hard to get into in pvp

hence why its trash

I get the sentiment about not wanting your summons to die on second chance

[dusky ginkgo]

10 summons dying to get to 50% or thereabouts dodge would be the proposal

[brave shard]

its like the class becomes useless

[brave shard]

pretty OP

because you dont have to take damage you get to play offense

pretty easy to kill 10 summons

summon dead, hydrus pact, summon dead, hydrus pact bam 60% dodge

in addition to crazy stat boosters

[dusky ginkgo]

Funny enough I have less of an issue with losing my summons and more of an issue of even with 5 out I don’t second chance almost ever 😂

[brave shard]

60% dodge still stupid strong either way

thats 1hp realmshifter mystic feather

[dusky ginkgo]

So what about 50% with a 5% gain per summon killed-

And what PvP context allows you 4 turns to prepare a dodge while only swinging every other turn?

Again this is why I’m asking you lol

Assuming summon dead doesn’t just give you one skeleton in the first place

[void scaffold]

You don't get to 10 dead summons in live PvP. Most of the time i get to 5 when i really want it or a lucky CR proccs.

So you'd sit at 30% dodge at the end of your 2nd/3rd turn.

On a sidenote i found GSHs 2nd chance not as useless as i thought.
Even w/o summons thus pacts i manage to do a last 10 to 15k swing after it.

[dusky ginkgo]

I have had the opposite experience in evaluating its usefulness but yeah I can get in a medium swing after if I survive

[void scaffold]

Maybe cuz i went in with like the worst expectations🤣

[dusky ginkgo]

I had pretty low expectations but liked the theme and charging the passive xD

But after doing so much BoF even with all 5 summons out, I rarely got it off

I’m not sure I’d call it a need but I’ll admit I’m curious what something dodge related would look like

Though if we had to lose anything other than the 2nd chance for it, I don’t want it xD

[rose path]

Thats right, most of the time you MAX kill 5 summons

And even then pvp has stun, frozen to counter dodge

[rose path]

Well, even though its called "second chance" it seems to proc like with a 20% chance

[rose path]

I love it, 50% would be cool with me

[rose path]

I think Final Decree is still very underwhelming, it needs 20% kheper autosummon chance or +20% more pact power

[dusky ginkgo]

Per Decree, I’d be more interested in some amount of summon stats myself

Though I’m not opposed to more Pact Power

[rose path]

Right? It still feels quite underwhelming. Cele archstaff outdamages decree even on high ang, and has tons more ward and mag

If decrees mag could also be boosted by 30~ish % that would also be quite good

Or if final decree would have a chance for t.all+++

Like 5% or 7%

Then it would be quite satisfactory

Gs is the only class that must rely on manually casting either DC or gods of aaru. Other classes can just use ruairc gear with tmm, or followers with DC and not waste multiple turns on a t.all+++

[dusky ginkgo]

My understanding of Final Decree is that it was intended to allow a reliable source of Khepirs for AoE raids/niche use for chain Chance HyPact

The problem being the lack of summon stats means anguish eventually takes care of that anyway

But my builds are tanky summons + Decree for raids like Ptah, Cade, etc and it actually works pretty well

Issue being that Scruug and any raid with Despair doesn’t care about little summons with no stats

——— Per HyPact, it does work if you go all in on Spinal Shards but it struggles to match damage like you said. I’m okay with that because it’s a safe (but slow) way to push through hordes. While 20% pact would help I don’t think it would really get the weapon there to where it needs (AoE raids specialist)

So it’s a weird weapon that needs a bit of scaling (more magic could help but now as much as I’d think summon stats would)

It reminds me of an Arisen Imagination with the flexibility that 13 adornment slots provides maybe minus a tiny bit more oomph

[rose path]

Absolutely agree
But what do you think of chance for t.all+++? That would then be the only item that could do it

[dusky ginkgo]

Personally I think that’s asking too much on Decree. If a buff were added, I’d want Mag 2 so it saves you a turn of buffing

[rose path]

What do you think about giving final decree the ability to absorb the summon's buffs from their skill pool?

For example if i got a penguin spawned i have a chance to "use" /absorb DC from their skill pool

[austere sedge]

and you say i give bad ideas

(your idea is bad because it's asking a whole passive worth from single gear)

[ruby raven]

I think I'm on the side decree needs some summon stats lol

Agony 40+ AOE raids absolutely don't care about the khepers XD

Current stats at max are
Att:287
Magic:1103
Mana:297
Ward:124%
Summon pacts:60%
Chain chance:15%
Adorns:13

What I personally would change it to:
Def:140
Res:140
Magic:1350
Mana:400
Ward:160%
Adorns 13
Summon pacts:60%
Summon stats:50%
Fire def(5%), lightning def(5%), t.def1(3%) t.res(3%), t.def2(2%), t.res2(2%), t.all1(1%)

Keeping the weapons identity from mid to useless in dungeons/raids, into a very viable tanky raiding weapon, and something to fall behind against AOE raids early and later anguish

[ruby raven]

Hypa kills 3 summons at a time lol, assuming as suggested, 5% dodge per summon
Summon dead->hypa=15%
2 turns
Summon dead->hypa=30%
4 turns
Summon dead->hypa=45%
6 turns
Summon dead->hypa=60%
8 turns

Charon situation can proc but at most I think this is a turn 4-6 strat at best, and worst it's 8 turns

I wanna say most classes have a win condition before 4 turns even, and ofc you can always shut down a GSH with AOE your practically bully them cause they can't do anything without ammo 🤣 then just single target kill them

Ofc you could
4% dodge per summon killed up to 40% (pvp)
5% dodge per summon killed up to 60% (pve)

If it ever is a concern

[brave shard]

To be clear the problem is:

Second chance proc makes GSH completely powerless.

?

[void scaffold]

It does not, however it takes away your main offense compared to other classes that may even benefit from it due to redlining.

It's just worse in comparison imo.
In a dreamworld all 2nd chances have a drawback like this e.g. massive debuffs.

[tardy trail]

Yeah, or BeoH's

[rose path]

Imo pvp battles last no longer than 4 turns

Considering FS, and all other stuff - dodge is useless in pvp on GSH

Unless you take something with stun/freeze resistance but then you lose out on many other aspects

So in my opinion 60% dodge tied to 100% souls (6% dodge per stack) is the optimal amount

Again taking into account that GsH is a thiefy class (can equip thief gear) dodge will be a good addition

[rose path]

Absolutely agree

Big double up

[rose path]

Hmmm guys

What do you think about Hydrus Poise?
Same principle as critical poise but
"Status effects are much less likely to fade on any turn that you sacrifice summons"

And what do you think about blueline on GsH?

Not 100% tho, 50%

[dusky ginkgo]

OP and boring if I'm being perfectly honest. We already have free reign to equip as much buff duration as we want without affecting our damage

We'd need to give something for anything remotely crit poise/staying power adjacent and shy of trading the Second Chance for a dodge-ish thing, I really don't think there's anything I'd be happy to give up 🥹

Per Blueline, no thank you. If I want to blueline, I'll go play Heretic. And if I want big damage nukes while 100% bluelining with crit poise, I'll go play Heretic Corvus with twin Ruairc Staves.

Besides, if you want a bit of Blueline, Maji spec is actually pretty cool on GSH 😄

[undone hazel]

Yes

[undone hazel]

No

[rose path]

So, Ima tell you my experience with final decree and what it currently lacks:

1. it needs ~60% more ward.
2. it needs around 350~ish more mag
3. it needs around 250~ish more mana (optional)
4. it needs, ofc best case, 20% more pact power, but that could be too much so id be ok with 10% more. 70% in total
5. why even have the atk stat? Its an archstaff = magic based. Replace atk with HP, same amount as mana

[undone hazel]

Out of curiosity, what content / ang are you doing with it?
The 1 turn summon on it does look cool but otherwise it looks like a straight downgrade from dual staves

Like, 300 less mag from my Kala which is only ang13 lol

[signal oasis]

Noone is asking for gsh to be GOOD at horde, just that it can actually DO horde using its GS kit.

[dusky ginkgo]

I use it for:

1. AoE raids ; equip all the tanky summons for autosummoning and then use the Khepirs plus those to kill raids that AoE

2. Despair world farming with Darkrift Fragments and maxxing chain Chance

3. Goofy horde dungeon runs when I feel like challenging myself

4. Weird builds in other content because some pact + 13 adorn slots is at least interesting

@undone hazel

[signal oasis]

Rs/gil are fenominal at pvp. Overwhelmingly so. Having gsh be bad at horde is like having a gil/rs class thats horrible at pvp and single target combat. Because GS is a class that at its heart is horde, its just that GSH for the longest time only had blood pact. Since hypact has come out and is completely aloof from its tree as now it can raid. However that distinction is why I think alot of players are misunderstanding my issues with the class.

GSH IS NOT HYPACT.<

[signal oasis]

Hence it would be nice to make GSH kit, its abilities ect. Functionally work with its class. Giving it an ability like ^

Or something that fundamentally changes the characteristics of the inital blood pact spells. As it Is the pact class. Leans into actually giving the class both consistency and not. "Bl2 but worse simulator"/hypact.

[austere sedge]

ngl gsh is only good at hypa

[signal oasis]

Iv been thinking about it and hard, youre all(most of you anyways) have been using the rebuttal agenst actually improving what GSH means as and to MAINS of it. As if hypact is the class. It is not, GSH is a class that specializes in pacts. We clearly are not getting more pacts. We got an awesome ability thats great, however that ability essentially exists for hypact. The above poll, essentially is you asking,
"Do players like hypact" or "do players want hypact that can do horde pve" like no. Hypact should be left alone it has done enough and is fine as is.

[austere sedge]

it's not that good for bp and other pact (because some of them scale with summon stat)

[signal oasis]

Exactly

Which is why it should have a passive that does soemthing eith blood pact that makes blood pact also usable on it without being at a detriment.

Or parasitic like hypact is.

[austere sedge]

since most ppl want to focus on raids aka single target (from poll) Gsh is doing well only second chance needs to go and we need more cr (through gear or adorn or direct buff on passive)

[signal oasis]

Hypact, uses summons full life. Our "2'd" chance uses killing summons. So leave it alone, we need a passive/passives that works with our pact kit.

We have rada, charons, alchys, life, hy, and blood.
Only hy is used. On the PACT CLASS.

Im sorry but anything contrary to:thats correct, or oh shit this was a pact class that specializes in pacts. Is literally just ignoring the truth.

[undone hazel]

Fair

[signal oasis]

We have a multitude of pacts, NONE of them are synergistic outside of what hp pacts healing a bit more? And even in that case noone is going to use them because they "benifit summons" and gsh summon stat is a joke. OR they arnt used because base gs outscales dramatically so we dont even bother.

[austere sedge]

we have around 4 to 5 pact that are used

all other are useless

they need rework

so they are actually useful (not limited to gsh but whole gs classline)

[void scaffold]

A slight sidenote.
GSH was designed as a player focused class not necessarily a pact class.
Pacts are its greatest tool tho.
HyPa was designed mainly to passively give it buffs while dealing dmg to compensate the lack of a follower

[dusky ginkgo]

I’d also say I am getting some regular use out of 3 pacts:
-Hydrus Pact (of course)
-Bloodpact II
-Sacrificial Pact

And I use them as much as a focus as a set of tools to enable other things that the class can do by default of decent stats + Thief, Mage and Valhallan gear

Life, Rhada and Charon all help for endless setup 🤷‍♂️ so that’s 6

(Not saying we can’t do more)

[austere sedge]

what's the point of counting their second spell

only rhada pact 2 is used

only sacrificial pact 1 is used (in most cases)

[signal oasis]

Reiterating my final stab "second change if" rework. Switch it with
soul bond: damage taken is shared with all summons. 25% chance to block 100% of hp damage taken. Additionally blood pacts gain 8% chain chance per summon being sacrificed.
Likewise

+Summon stats = 1/2 pact damage. 
draws out the true potential of pact spells. 
Hypact (unchanged)
Bp I: medium chance to be doublecast.

Bp II: fair chance to be doublecast, may hit additional targets based on hydrus passive.(base targets is 2 at 10 stacks)

BP II: may be cast 1 turn sooner, may hit additional targets based on hydrus passive.(base targets is 3 at 10 stacks)

Rada: passes all buffs to summoner from summons. 
Charon I: sacrifices a summon and cast it again using pact multiplier added to summon stats for that cast. 

Charon II: sacrifices all summons and casts a stronger summon scaling pact multiplier as "summon stats" for that cast. 

Life pact 1 &2: costs significantly less health to heal summons more. ```

^

[austere sedge]

can you explain Charon pact

[median grove]

I am a new summoner, but I always thought GSH was a pact class and GSA the summons the original t10 one was a bit of both, and from what I read I think the ideia is to use pacts in GSH to raid fast?

[austere sedge]

it got me confused

[austere sedge]

gsh is pact class

[signal oasis]

I select summon that summon is killed and recasts it that turn.

Using my current "pact damage" + summon stats. As its summon stats

[austere sedge]

hmm sounds good

i would've said overpowered if we had gear with high summon stat and pact bonus

but that's not the case

[dusky ginkgo]

I’ll give you that sounds neat

But pacts have little business getting more damage/power and free chain Chance on top of that

This sounds incredibly overbearing on a class that is already very strong - not to mention is basically a second half rework

[austere sedge]

very strong is overstatement

[signal oasis]

Its not

[austere sedge]

@signal oasis please add dodge in your idea too 👉👈

replace sc

with dodge

[signal oasis]

Because 1 thats not my suggest, thats as simple as it is. Make pacts to SOMETHING on hydrus. ^

But 2 hydrus is far from strong.

Its a strong raider

[austere sedge]

and there are better alternatives

so not best raider

Good thing is that raid build doesn't need many event gear

[median grove]

what is the best gear currently for GSH raids/ high anguish?

[austere sedge]

pact helm (40% pact), heretic robe, high mag boot, celestial staff (pact adorns) and nekromancer staff in off hand

[signal oasis]

Sopike shield has no reason being even stronger if a gilga uses it.

[austere sedge]

you can replace armor or boots for god of aaru gear

[signal oasis]

Like no

The pact class should work and play insanely well with pacts

[median grove]

dosen't celestial staff fall off at high anguish?

[austere sedge]

it gives 100% pact bonus

[signal oasis]

What we recived a new pact thats the only core identity to the class.

[austere sedge]

so it's best option for pact

[signal oasis]

Idk yall love it but like its crazy feels bad to me.

[austere sedge]

it is bad

too costly

and doesn't even give a lot

and has split aoe

[signal oasis]

Hypacts cost is fine its a strong spell

[austere sedge]

only thing it has going for it is t. buff and high single target

[signal oasis]

But why do we loose every single other pact outside of niche case

[austere sedge]

3 summon when we only have 5 summon at max and cr isn't reliable enough in many cases i doubt

[signal oasis]

Just for hypact and call it fair and say yeah the pact class should only have 1 pact.

[dusky ginkgo]

Goodness if we just care about being the best at something, maybe we should play those classes? 😅

GSH at AL0 at Anguish 0:
-Can go through towers just a little slower than Heretic (yes, less safely)
-Can raid ridiculously fast OR still fast but very safely (“but what about Deity?”)
-Can horde dungeons with BL2, Despair, or HyPact at a comfortably quick speed - summons do a great job mopping up leftovers if you opt for the 2H route
-Can Blades of Finesse Guild at a low mid level with flexible and weird builds (but follower 1 turn)

Being able to do so much content quickly at AL250 is strong. Plain and simple

Anguish cuts down the horde power, speed, and safety, sure

But Anguish is supposed to be hard

[austere sedge]

nobody here is asking for it to be best

you said it's very strong

not us

[signal oasis]

Literally that full list you just wrote. Raiding is the only thing

[dusky ginkgo]

^ this is how I interpreted this and the constant asking for more power

[austere sedge]

and gs and gsa are far reliable in horde (and I'm not even looking to make gsh good in horde now)

[austere sedge]

I'm just stating facts

saying it's strong raider and not even decent in other content and acting like it's good enough is weird

i meant that there are classes that are good in raid and better than gsh in horde

[signal oasis]

Because rs can go through towers slower than heratic probably faster. And this is a notoriously terrible class at horde. Gilga faster by far, also horrible at horde.

[dusky ginkgo]

For what? this is an exasperating conversation. I can respect you guys want more power. That’s fine, but I’m going to point that out.

[austere sedge]

so there is nothing wrong with asking more

[signal oasis]

So saying "hey this class thats bad at it can scrape and crawl and do it" good enough! No.

[austere sedge]

refining class and fixed it's rough edges isn't asking for more power

asking for other pact to be usable isn't overpowered is it?

[dusky ginkgo]

Unless you guys think not being best is scraping and crawling, the only major struggle I see for GS Hydrus is Anguish horde dungeons

[austere sedge]

getting better survivability passive isn't overpowered

[signal oasis]

Having blood pact actually have a use and reason to be used. Let alone every single pact on a pact class.

[austere sedge]

you can say horde content

[signal oasis]

Only makes sense

[austere sedge]

not just dgn

and aside from raid most content is horde

[signal oasis]

Gs has the lowest bl2 damage.

Split damage for hypact

A parasitic relationship with its "second chance" passive and its only reliable damage

[dusky ginkgo]

😮‍💨

Then can you guys give me a definition of “scrape by”

Or

“Success”/“strong”

[dusky ginkgo]

As mentioned a little ways back, this I can at least shake hands with you on. Second chance doesn’t feel great

[signal oasis]

I dont want strong as I said replace all in this^ pact mastery passive ability w something els.

[austere sedge]

maybe answer me if gsh can utilize other pact and has more reliable second chance will it become more overpowered?

[signal oasis]

Pacts need to do something

Its a pact

Class

[austere sedge]

pacts need rework

[dusky ginkgo]

^

[austere sedge]

they look interesting but they are useless

[dusky ginkgo]

I’m fine with new pacts or redoing some of them within reason but as mentioned as well-

I use them all in some content or another with Charon’s probably getting the least use from me

[austere sedge]

tell me what else gsh can use outside of pact

and excel in it

[dusky ginkgo]

Define excel: Be best at?

[signal oasis]

Then where are my physical skills? Does gsh even have enough attack when fully juiced to utilize any physical moves?

[austere sedge]

not bad at

[dusky ginkgo]

You’re mincing my words so I’m not sure anything I say is going to qualify here

[austere sedge]

and can be used in content it needs to

[dusky ginkgo]

Define “not bad”

[signal oasis]

Because it barely has the magic stat to use bl2 effectively with 10 stacks of hydrus.

[austere sedge]

if I'm doing dgn then i should clear 7 out of 10 atleast

if I'm raiding it doesn't take half hr

if it's tower then it doesn't become very time taking

if pvp then i can one shot

[signal oasis]

If its a player damage class, give it pacts or make blood pact use the players life so you bypass summons entirely. Since pacts with them are meaningless. Like im lost on the concept of player damage class when outside of hypact... the only other way to get to 10 stacks is pacts that are detrimental to the class. But adding new pacts are out of the question. But adding veritility or usability of what we have also isn't advised...

Like the class identity is even more confusing after reading that.

Its like saying chain crit RS isnt a crit class.

[dusky ginkgo]

Towers: Up to Anguish 9 and counting: BL2 is adequate to one maybe two shot everything shackled. Summons can still do enough to mop up a stragglers. I’m not higher, can’t say more. I don’t care if GSA is safer. It’s quick and it works

Dungeons: Same but I tend to prefer either chain chancing HyPact to keep buffs coming in or usually Despair with buff duration to be tanky and unkillable while still 1-2 shotting every floor. Even works with Ruairc gear on

World Farming: Chain Chance is plenty to allow HyPact with Dark Rifts

PvP: Sure, if your opponent blocks, dodges or second chances, you might lose, but that’s a fundamentally bigger issue. 1-shot damage level is a cakewalk for 99% of builds

Raids: You can zero the toughest raids in the game while hitting for 15m+ or you can go all in and fire 30-40m double casts pretty irregardless of anguish

[signal oasis]

See now you have my second guessing my entire life im going to reread the discription of GSH. ;^; because like I get it... I think, but does BEOH not still use gaits&calls?

[dusky ginkgo]

BeoH can fail Calls so aside from praying for Jord, not always. I wouldn’t say it is a focal point to the Hydrus celestial tag

(And everyone can use gaits)

[signal oasis]

Yeah but it still has acess to

And can utilize its base kit

[austere sedge]

so i don't use hypact or any thing that is part of gsh in most content

[signal oasis]

Gsh becomes hydrus suddenly

[austere sedge]

and other class also while not utilizing their passive can do it better

[signal oasis]

Like I dont think yalll understand the uphill struggle its been

Buying hydrus just to find out i cant even use it.

And still persisting to blood pact my way through dungeons

And finnaly I burned out and quit

Just to come back and the fix is turn my entire class into hypact*

[austere sedge]

eh iirc beoa and gsa has different passive of auriga so this statement doesn't make sense

[signal oasis]

No he was replying to me

[austere sedge]

oo

[signal oasis]

What he said made sense but im certain they still use calls to make their pet spam buffs for them

Just like if we had the reason to we'd still use the other pacts.

[austere sedge]

i, see i misunderstood

[signal oasis]

But now its like my class has been trivialized.

[austere sedge]

who is using archylis pact

[signal oasis]

^ exactly

Give

[austere sedge]

and charon pact (usually)

[signal oasis]

Them a use on hydrus

It dosnt even have to be game breaking

[austere sedge]

only rhada 2 is used

[signal oasis]

Just mske it do something

[austere sedge]

exactly

asking for utility doesn't make it overpowered

[dusky ginkgo]

It is very clear to me that literally nothing I can say evidenced or not is going to change your opinions so I’ll just see myself out for now

Again, you guys can want more, but I’m going to call out things I think are OP or busted.

Happy to focus on things we can agree on too like the second chance feeling lackluster.

[austere sedge]

like can you tell me what you think is op in making pacts useable and more cc (ig)

i don't think gsh can hit 5 enemies even with cc and split still exists so i don't see it being overpowered

[signal oasis]

Yes but immediately after you saying its busted I said make them do anything and what im saying is a blatant extreme for the blood pacts.

[austere sedge]

since you agree on second chance now i don't need to yap on that

and i don't remember anything more that has been asked rn

[signal oasis]

+Summon stats = 1/2 pact damage. 
draws out the true potential of pact spells. 

Hypact (unchanged)

Bp I: medium chance to be doublecast.

Bp II: may be cast one turn sooner.

BP II: may be cast 1 turn sooner, may hit additional targets based on hydrus passive.(up to 4 additional targets at max hudrus)

Rada: passes all buffs to summoner from summons. 

Charon I: sacrifices a summon and cast it again using pact multiplier added to summon stats for that cast. 

Charon II: sacrifices all summons and casts a stronger summon scaling pact multiplier as "summon stats" for that cast. 

Life pact 1 &2: costs significantly less health to heal summons more. ```

^

Inherent in the class and would appear where frenzy on gilga is shown. Directly in the character bio. Not the passives tab.

[austere sedge]

nothing is overpowered here

maybe that 1/2 summon stat

[signal oasis]

Nah

[austere sedge]

but not sure on that

[signal oasis]

It needs summon stats

Summons are squishy as fucj

And being forced to run decree that locks you into a weird play pattern with random summons that dosent even itself offer summon stats isnt a good feel attall

[austere sedge]

it depends on max summon stat(from gear)

if they cross 160% i think it's bit too much

that's 80% pact bonus

just though armor

[austere sedge]

True

[signal oasis]

GSH gear does not give summon stats

[austere sedge]

gs gear does

[signal oasis]

Essentially its theif gear or like dynasty footpads

[austere sedge]

it could be used

for summon stat and pact bonus

[signal oasis]

What gsh thats trying to play mf ang is using base gs gear?

Nice joke lmfao.

[austere sedge]

if it's summon stat give me pact bonus then i think ppl might

[signal oasis]

No

Other way arounf

[austere sedge]

?

[signal oasis]

Your 1/2 pact damage is applied to your summon stats for summons

[austere sedge]

pact bonus give summon stat?

[signal oasis]

Because we dont have ascended summons

[austere sedge]

if that's the case then it's balanced

i misunderstood again lol

[rose path]

Yeah but its only useful in the occasional situation where u need fully filled field before a raid ults

I raid with it

[ruby raven]

Well hate to break it to ya, but it can do horde using GS kit lol it just feels slow a and bad, what you're asking is for it to be good

[ruby raven]

Nekromacer staff

[signal oasis]

You can put as many head shaking cats as you want.

I want a class thay works.

To say gsh isnt a pact class

Is to say gsa isnt a summoning stats class

[ruby raven]

But I would like to see ascended summons on GSH, it starts at 80% summon stats anyway, CR summons them at half that

Bloodpact being too powerful is out the question till AL 200 at minimum for that class XD

But it would make GSH be in line and actually share some common goal gear between all GS lines, so we aren't making SPECIFIC gear for a gs celestial class, and making just GS gear that can be good between the three again

[ruby raven]

What does gsa have over GS?

[signal oasis]

Summons that do the thing because its the summoning class. It has summons.

As gsh

We have hypact

[ruby raven]

20% more summon stats/summon AI/pact nerf

That's it lol

While GS can do what GSA does WHILE doing self efficient dmg

[signal oasis]

Take gsa and gs into the same lv ang

Gs is dying

[ruby raven]

It's not lol

[signal oasis]

Tbh im all for a buff to base classes because celes sidegrades are strictly better imo.

Cept gsh

Its strictly worse but so much better at raiding than both that ppl at like it shouldn't have acess to its other skills for some reason

And thats wild

[ruby raven]

Base GS is one of our strongest, and best scaler

20% more summon stats then base is not game breaking, and in anguish we hardly use warrior gear as GSA so we effectively are just GS that can't do self efficient dmg, that said, GSA is one of the strongest early/late tower classes, and dungeon snapshotting makes us able to do dungeons higher mel with farming gear lol

Gsh can do every piece of content with its kit, is it good? No, is it viable? Yes
And it's one of the strongest early raiding classes there is

Base GS can do what GSA can do while doing self efficient dmg that can do more then what GSH can do on a single target it's a middle ground that can be better then both it's celestials, it also has the MOST build diversity of the bunch

[signal oasis]

Then give base gs 20% more and give gsh 20% more than that.

[signal oasis]

Because alot of this^ wont be shared with the other 2. Will not make gsh more broken ect. Hell even remove the split damage thing from blood pact. It needs the option to atleast use its pacts.

[ruby raven]

Lmao no XD

I agree gsh needs ascended summons at best, and that's kinda it, that solves any now problems and future problems

[signal oasis]

It feels horrid haveing a stale build and my class hasn't actually even been out for a year. Because im not hearing "gsh has been out the same amount of-" no. The passive didnt even work, we only had blood pact, we had no real build diversity.

The answer to that was make hypact out entire class

Im not upset, im really happy we have hypact

But all of you acting like asking for any degree of fair play with the "player damage" PACT CLASS, and its pacts. Is asking for my cake and eating it too.

Like there was a really good start, our sac a summon skills now work with CR. The fact that they didn't initially raises questions in the first place as to why we just cant get synergy within our own kit and our skill.

[ruby raven]

Tbf bloodpact didn't work cause summons stats on GSH were stale, same reason now why bloodpact doesn't work

Ofc nothing is stopping you from switching to GS/GSA to summon, then using bloodpact in dungeons with 400% summon stat summons, 60% pact on GSH

But that's only viable in dungeons

[signal oasis]

Im a gsh main

"Hey man I like cherry pie" "nothings stopping you from eating a blueberry pie".....? Like whut. Theres an entire reason im saying, please make our skills passives ect cohesive.

Gsh has from the jump been the one class that just does not make sense with what its given

[ruby raven]

You've never done endless eh?

[signal oasis]

Initially shipped as pact class, but now that gsh=hydrus pact nothing els. Its a player damage class.

[signal oasis]

This irks me to no end.

Your class is really good at first summoning broken ah summons that self heal, then fully buff, then use blood spells an squence 😄 like. Bruh, no.

[unique shuttle]

Nah shozen is right here, the whole identity of gsh rn is just hypa

[ruby raven]

It's whole identity before was bloodpact lol

I like it's current identity better I'd say lol

[signal oasis]

Its identity before was healing summons in endless.

Noone actually raided with it cept gsh mains who didnt get burnt out because their only free time to play the game wasn't them dying in dungeons 247

[ruby raven]

Nope, it was bloodpact

And it was used in dungeons as it is used now, just a longer buff phase

And in endless it was bloodpact/lifepact

[signal oasis]

You can literally look up videos

"Endless afg farm"

Mf says it himself, "so you switch to hydrus so you can heal them if they get too low"

But now wev been given hypact told it was our identity and now when its been pact class since it came out. 🫠🙃

Even with 100% of its passive its far from competitive. But I dont want it to be competitive, its the only class you have to literally build up. Hera deals crazy damage on its own w.o flasks, diety same, beo, same, rs, like were smack dab in the middle for raids if that. On the med to low end in horde, near the bottom in towers unless you want to be risky and loose a tower.

And im not asking for game breaking, I just want pacts to do something.

Pacts doing something on a class that specializes in them should not be treated so sensitively.

Because giving us ascended summons isnt a thing

Hydrus loose out

Beo h does not have ascended follower.

Gsh cannot get ascended summon

But since hydrus is the way it is

It should get affects stapled onto its pacts or a passive that achieve the same effects.

Because it makes no sense otherwise.

[ruby raven]

Hydrus pact= buffs you, insane dmg output
Bloodpact= strongest single target spell in game in dungeons snapshotting

Other pacts don't do much cause they are generally meant to cycle summons not dmg, and there's no point in using them while you can DEAL dmg and buff your passive at the same time

[signal oasis]

Like what if alchys gave you s stance that increased ATTACK stat further for each stack of hydrus?

Or is that broken?

Charons gives you a stance that slightly increases CR.

Charons 2 same but slightly better

Like +5% or +10% respectively.

Ect

[ruby raven]

We already ruled att stat out of GSH months ago, it did have T.att1-3 in its buff pool

[signal oasis]

And why was that?

[ruby raven]

Since GSH is more of a magic class then anything lol

[signal oasis]

No, its because even with all the attack buffs its attack damage was still buns

[ruby raven]

In dungeons, despair/bl2/hypa
Raids, hypa

[signal oasis]

If seeing what you just sent me dosent make you depressed I dont know what to tell you man.

In dungeons use event items or a fairly hard to get because its dropped by a relatively rare mob at incredibly low rates as ornate. Or one move when you hsve 7 other pacts you could be using and only being locked into peg, ghost, dead, or vss. When there are like 30 summons.

You can only eat the same 3 meals, or eat 1 of the 3 meals religiously. Or go somewhere else to eat entirely. You have all the ingredients in the fridge but you arnt allowed to make anything with them.

[ruby raven]

You can mage dance/hypa as well

No items besides high magic required

[signal oasis]

Does that not seem ridiculous

[signal oasis]

Mages dance & ravensong are a joke

I used the for a week

Iv died in every single last dungeon iv brought them to almost

[ruby raven]

The other pacts don't deal dmg, so they aren't ruled into this, I mean that's like saying "rhada pact should do something else" you'd be hurting 2 GS lines in that process

Pacts that don't deal dmg do what they are intended to do, it just has no reason in GSH kit when it's pact can, buff your passive, and deal dmg

Bloodpact can buff you while doing dmg, cause it doesn't kill summons in 1 turn, and you need summon stats to properly scale it

It's locked to hydrus pact cause no other DMG pact scales with it, you could change the other pacts around but that result would stay the same

It would need more dmg pacts introduced, but even then, does it need other pacts? Hypa does everything on it's own, and a full AOE pact is just OP at the end of the day, it does "enough" to be used

[signal oasis]

My dungeon sucess was like 12% because I switched from my t1 yelg staff to swansong(I named mine ravensong) they are not by any streach of the imagination a good tradeoff.

Its quite literally BL2/despair
And hypact for raids.

Because hypact event isnt somrthing to bring into a dungeon unless your buffing or getting max hydrus passive

[signal oasis]

You literally arnt reading a word im saying

+Summon stats = 1/2 pact damage. 
draws out the true potential of pact spells. 
Hypact (unchanged)
Bp I: medium chance to be doublecast.

Bp II: fair chance to be doublecast, may hit additional targets based on hydrus passive.(base targets is 2 at 10 stacks)

BP II: may be cast 1 turn sooner, may hit additional targets based on hydrus passive.(base targets is 3 at 10 stacks)

Rada: passes all buffs to summoner from summons. 
Charon I: sacrifices a summon and cast it again using pact multiplier added to summon stats for that cast. 

Charon II: sacrifices all summons and casts a stronger summon scaling pact multiplier as "summon stats" for that cast. 

Life pact 1 &2: costs significantly less health to heal summons more. ```^

This

Only

Affects

Gsh

And these affects themselves mean nothing. Literally put anything in there, no matter how marginal, and make it pretain to GSH.

[signal oasis]

Let me reiterate before you remessage explaining you again didnt aknowleoledge what im saying. Put ANY effect no matter how marginal, but have something to do with a reason TO use them on the class that WANTS to use them. And the class will feel better.

Charon pact could literally give a small chance to double summon.

Literally anything tacked on to them via an ability. And all pacts now have not only playability but viability ALSO a reason to not be forced to use one move and try to force that to be the only thing we do.

Im fine with never haveing ascended summons it is what it is.

[ruby raven]

That would be an essential rework of a rework

And a complicated ask quite honestly, is what I'm saying, alongside that I answered all your queries about the different topics lol

GSH can do dungeons, exceptional at raids , decent at worldfarming, decent in towers, okayish on pvp

What content would it need improvement in if it's already good at the content we wanted it to be good at? Gsh isn't locked to pacts, it can do a little everything magic wise, and it CAN even use thinblade if it wanted too and clear wyrmhunt dungeons with ease

[ruby raven]

I'm not, that's the easiest thing to ask for lol, and solves gsh from needing to class switch to use bloodpact quite a bit

[signal oasis]

Be real. Gsh is good at raids, can do dungeons 2ed from the bottom but not poorly because we arnt allowed to be frank, every class can world farming, amung the lowest in pvp.

Excelling in something but being middle of the pack overall isnt excelling

Like if were talking from the lenses of t9, ok sure

Absolutely by all means

[ruby raven]

RS is in a worst situation then that lol, they are good at 1 thing and absolutely horrible at every other content XD

Gsh has it good rn, at least it's middle

[signal oasis]

Verry strong class, but youre bottlenecked hard as hell outside of raids the second your feet touch t10 soil especially gearwise

[signal oasis]

RS and gilgas problem is funnily the same thing.

Gsh problem is mechanically

It didnt need a patch/rework it needed an overhaul.

Rs & Gil are kinda same boat.

But their issue is an entire game issue because their problem is with the way stats are in general.

Gilga will never "gilga" because the ward stat is coded unbiased. Its like fs being in the game before GS then gs enters and due to the way its coded diety & beo and certain summons will always have more fs.

Thats kinda how it is for them.

Gsh is needs summons, but dosent need summons. Gsh stats are locked behind summons dying 10 times, with a 40% chance of making more. If the 40% were rolled per summon spell in book hypact even with split damage would ve viable.

[signal oasis]

Gsh damage is locked behind event gear. And its protection is provided it hasn't killed its summons to hypact. And it using other skills that arnt pacts are like chain crit rs using skills that dont crit. Or weapons with no crit stat

[ruby raven]

Every class is locked behind event gear If you want real dmg

Any mage class can make mage dance work if you use good magic gear, that works for beo/deity/gsh/hera all the same really

And GSH is the least event heavy class

Raids
Celestial staff/nekro staff
Arisen riftsummoner helm
2 of these pieces can be common even
Dungeons
Despair
Mage dance
Maji/elemental AOE's
You hypa the targets that are immune

Some classes can't do dmg till they have FULL ornate sets, gsh has the luxury to use less then that lol

[signal oasis]

Literally

ADD pact damage to its ascended stats, and inherently give it 
1/2 its pact bonus as summon stats.(so it follows the tend of growing in power throughout content.  Without the need of making pact damage an anguish scaling stat but that also wouldn't hurt)

remove summon stat penalty from
cr2: 40% chance to auto summon(checks each summon for 40% chance to autosummon from spellbook randomly each turn)

Change second chance if to
"Second chance if 1-2", 3-4 (80%), 5(100% & same % as second chance for consecutive procs per encounter)

[signal oasis]

It will always make me laugh when ppl put beo/diety in the same sentence as GS of any type.

As a comparison

Theres no theif gear I can wear that out tanks the stuff diety and beo has and they have significantly chonkier stat totals in general

Even at max stats

None of the classes you mentioned has to waste 5 turns to use its statline

They can buff and begin clearing dungeons

[ruby raven]

Gsh can 0 A.morri on agony 35

Beo has to stasis to survive

Deity has to tank enough to get a 2k off

Gilga and RS are left in the dust in comparison lol

[signal oasis]

So you hsve?

[ruby raven]

If you want to build tanky GSH the tools are there, and you can 0 just about anything, it just tanks your dmg a bit

[signal oasis]

Because if its not something you yourself have done, and at that point im 30 AL 8 ang. I don't care about players who are playing at a level i am not

[ruby raven]

If anything GSH is actually defensively/and resiliently tanker then GSA

Gsa isn't 0'ing anything anytime soon lol

[signal oasis]

I can tell you all day about the GSA player who used CS

With 113 AL

[ruby raven]

Which doesn't work anymore lol

[signal oasis]

They disabled the move on other classes?

[ruby raven]

Tanked it's dmg so far that GSA can't make up enough stats to use it lol

Same with GSA spiked shield, it's also just not able to do it anymore

Gsa doesn't have any stats to do self efficient dmg even at 100 AL lol

Best you can do is be tanky ward wise let summons deal with it

Or

Glass cannon and go summon stats and let summons deal with it

And mind you GSA is heavily reliant on one of the hardest titans in game for its optimal gear lol

[signal oasis]

Yes but other players dont use GS to do that

They use an "easier class" or ect,

There really arnt mains anymore

So I get it, youre a firm believer of, "if you dont like it just pkay a different game. I still frequent D2 even with bungos questionable moves. And osrs even tho Jagex isnt very receptive to player feedback.

Wanting my class not to feel bad

Dosent mean im trying to break the game nor that I should "play another class" it means im going to continually throw ideas until something sticks or something changes. Or I get burnt out and cone back later. And the ladder will be here sooner than the former probably

[ruby raven]

I'm not saying "play a different game"

I'm just saying GSH isn't useless in dungeons nor does it require events to do dungeons, it's a simple gear investment like any other class, and it isn't meant to go at meta speeds

Gsh meta is raids

Everything else it can do just fine

Another approach you could take a gander at since simple fixes is at the stage we are at tbh

1. Ascended summons

2. Change benefactor spec to not have a -pact stat

So gsh can use benefactor without losing a chunk of dmg, that would be 210% summon stats

[bronze relic]

can't wait to see gsh to be a lot better by 2040

[void scaffold]

I soley play GS/A/H in any content and the only time i truly feel disadvantaged is BoF.

[ruby raven]

@dusky ginkgo what did you think of this btw? regarding the final decree topic

[rose path]

What if..... what if .... GsH had Avidity II?

👀

[dusky ginkgo]

What if GUrsa had Avidity 2 and Apex? 🤔

[dusky ginkgo]

My knee jerk reaction is 50% summon stats is too high but I think some amount of summon stats sounds lovely 😂

If nothing else, a bit more oomph would be nice but I’m enjoying the weapon in its jank for the moment

[austere sedge]

idc about Gursa gimme avidity 2

[ruby raven]

I did 50% because I tried benefactor and the khepers still die even with essentially 80%+130%+(I used arisen riftsummoner shoes)+135%

345% summon stats and they still got one shot by AOE raids, only survived against ptah/jorm

Cade and others still didn't even give the little fellas a chance

Ofc this testing is on agony 35+raids, and the khepers are T6 summons primarily with a oddity T9 every blue moon

[dusky ginkgo]

Fair - how about the chonky summons? I usually go in with Ancient Dragon and Great Pegasus equipped in addition to more Khepirs

Do they even get a shot as big ones?

[ruby raven]

With benefactor and stats provided, they live 1 hit, and die to hit 2

Sometimes ( despair AOEs ) will one shot them

Ofc granted I'm taking a -50% pact penalty with this XD and solely it's not hardly viable to use GSH with benefactor 😅

But the testing was solely just to see if summons could live

And that's really hard feat without ascended summons

[dusky ginkgo]

Yeah Benefactor is probably a nonstarter especially paired with Final Decree

[ruby raven]

I can make khepers live 1-3 hits on AOE raids with about, 700+ summon stats going ALL summon stats

AD/pegasus will most definitely live on 700+ summon stats, roughly about 5-8 hits

But well GSH can't afford to go all summon stats and do any dmg XD

So the 50% summon stats realistically doesn't change much XD higher agony

But it would help them scale and be just enough for ptah/jorm the whole way ig

Idk the solution for despair and other AOE raids, cause that requires so many summon stats that GSH can't obtain without 0'ing it's dmg output tbh

Ofc problem with AD/pegasus, is that you have to manually summon them, 4-5 turns each, and if charon ritual summons them they are insta deleted before they even land lol

Ofc not saying summons like fey Kelpie and others similar to it can't tank

But well much less hp then AD/great pegasus

If beithir was a spell, we'd be singing a different tune

Beithir is probably the ultimate solution to AOE raids, if the beithir staff was ever updated

Decree would be the beginner friendly version of the beithir staff XD

Slap on 40% pact onto beithir staff and some better stats, you have a self replicating, semi hoard, very tanky dragon

No summon stats besides what's on the beithir staff

Beithir 172k
AD 116k
GP 120k

Beithir summons X2 faster then AD/GP, and it can summon up to 2 at a time, alongside self replicate, and charon ritual wouldn't proc on beithir

Then well beithir with 400%+ summon stats

530k beithir
360k AD
380k GP

But yeah just some thoughts thrown out there

[final wagon]

vs aoe raids just raid with base GS i don't understand why a class is supposed to be very good at everything

[ruby raven]

This was more a conversation on trying to make decree good lol

And then a solution for AOE raids alongside that conversation since that's where decree's niche lands most atm

But ofc if beithir staff was ever updated, decree would suddenly fall back into the depths of a very niche hardly worth grab again XD

[signal oasis]

No.

[signal oasis]

Noone wants "verry good at everything" we want able to DO everything.

And me specifically i just want it to actually function eith wits pacts.

[rose path]

That was a joke

[void scaffold]

Finally having my Decree build and played around with it a bit and honestly i think it's alright.

If its intended purpose is to have a weapon against AoE raids it only works to a degree. Agreed with

• summon stats
  even tho they will only help that much.

On the horde side i enjoyed it as a real BL2 alternative.
Ward turns and buffs are always up. In combination with Dull gear and Spine Shards it chained enough to make me happy. HyPas split dmg holds it back tho so i want to throw

• dmg against multiple targets
  into the mix to be able to buff it soley for this content w/o worrying about the rest.

[rose path]

Show the build ur using

Honestly for raiding i tried multiple builds. The only one that comes kinda close to sequencer is berserk builds, but its only 20k ward more with final decree which is kinda still meh and absolutely not worth it

[void scaffold]

For physical AoE raids ghosts are superior imo

[rose path]

Final decree needs a mag buff 300~ish more mag, 60-70% more ward and 10% more pact power

[rose path]

Yeah but then u got gsh stasis builds, which will still damage more than final decree + raid wont summon or even do aoe moves

[rose path]

Try fss for boots, or dynasty for GoA

[void scaffold]

GoA?

[tardy trail]

Gods of Aaru

[void scaffold]

I don't really wanna cast those mid dungeon, nor do i need to

[dusky ginkgo]

This is pretty much identical to my build for it with a PosDur 50% amity

[void scaffold]

That's mine too👀

[austere sedge]

i have similar build but i don't use final decree

but celestial staff with spinal whip

[dusky ginkgo]

Objectively, that’s probably better per damage but less ward but where does that distinction get made in anguish I’m not sure

[austere sedge]

Well gsh is glass uh gun for me so i really don't want to think of ward or defenses

[dusky ginkgo]

That's fine 🤷‍♂️ but we sometimes get defense buffs so you'd better believe I'm going to use em

[ruby raven]

the real BL2 alternative, is despair/mage dance

I think I ran a similar build to yours, I used moondust for adorns though, and dmg wasn't an issue for me, the split isn't that bad, BUT the fact that it doesn't hit all targets/you can't comfortably spam hypa/some enemies ( mammon specifically ) can just completely shut you down/and it feels incredibly clunky to play

Is what got me to just not use it in dungeons anymore, rather I switched it to a raid loadout, and it Excels versus, jorm/ptah, and similar AOE raids like them, but it doesn't do well against, cade/scrugg and similar raids

For me personally it's a much better raid weapon then a dungeon weapon, and that's just mainly due to hypa being semi AOE, when we have much better full AOE alternatives, that don't require event gear (and aren't as clunky to play)

[void scaffold]

A real alternative (i don't think there's the alternative as they all have smth going for them) with different up and downsides compared to BL2, mentioned buff and ward upkeep.
I tested mel11 shackled idk maybe that's too low.

Raid idk really, i mean yea low dmg AoE is possible but like you said, GSH in general struggles against high dmg AoE and Decree doesn't really change that.

[dusky ginkgo]

What it allows me currently at Agony 14 to do is manually summon Khepirs for their 2nd chance possibility while bringing Great Pegasus and Ancient Dragon as my auto summons

But it’d be nice if the Ruairc gear had some extra summon stats to add support to that with the occasional double chonk 😂

Or just summon stats on the decree

Or both

[ruby raven]

Thing is

With summon stats decree could withstand higher AOE raids to a certain point if it had a chunk of summon stats, 30-50%, and If it did well it would be a highly sought after QOL ( anguish scaling, ang40, we'd get 120%+80% base, that's at least 200% summon stats, while not great, you can try to slip in summon stats on your shoes as well, and it should make your kelpers live 1-2 hits before dying, that would be enough to hypa at least )

With dungeons, unless hypa was full AOE, i highly doubt it will be sought after for dungeons, and you need even more event gears to top it off just to kinda hit 4 targets, alone the clunky gameplay of it

It's me taking the lesser of the evils and settling for what it's closer too being good at so the weapon has relevance

[dusky ginkgo]

Also of note, Dark Pegasus has Mystic Feather so it can sometimes dodge assuming it survives the first AoE

Those and Khepirs are becoming some of my AoE raiding staples

[ruby raven]

Ofc another solution to it all would be to have charon ritual summon at full summon stats potential, and bring it back to 100% at least

And well GSH could grab summon stats reasonably and share more common gear interests with the rest of its lines, instead of making such specific gear for just it to function

[austere sedge]

instead of 50% summon stats from cr how about 75%

[rose path]

Cr?

[austere sedge]

you have been active in this thread for this long and you donno cr? are you fr?

btw it's charon ritual

aka auto summon

[rose path]

I dont know all of your abbreviations

[austere sedge]

your??

wow

[dusky ginkgo]

I might get awful luck in PvP but I’ve been running Shackled Mel6 with Final Decree full of Orichalcum Mortars and actually doing pretty alright with that too

Summon Khepirs appears to always give 3-5 Khepirs per proc so if you empty your summons on a floor, you’ll start with 3 on the next.

Only time I didn’t pull that off was if I had 4 out and fired HyPact leaving 1 behind

Not as fast as BL2 but I’m at 1.5-2m a run if not lagging

Still stand by a bit of summon stats would help for the raiding side and a bit of multi hit damage is a neat one too

[rose path]

But one question

Do you have ONLY summon khepers skill equipped? Or also summon ded?

[rose path]

That could be changed by simply adding more mag to the staff so a 200% at gf would have like 1500 mag or so. Afaik hypa damage is not counted as multitarget or am i wrong?

[dusky ginkgo]

Yes just that one

No summon dead or ghosts equipped currently

But I was wrong - you can occasionally just get 1 from the “start of battle” summon

[rose path]

Hm icic

[ruby raven]

Charon ritual passive

[signal oasis]

Question

What exactly does hydrus stacks do?

Could we supplement alot of these issues with making stacks matter? Like even marginally.

[austere sedge]

probably give some pact bonus or just raw stats

[austere sedge]

sc consume hydrus stat instead of summon or after 100% soul we get a special horde summon

that consume all stacks

[signal oasis]

No not edible stacks

[austere sedge]

then they are just permanent buff

making then consumable or giving then new effects can make them bit more interesting

[austere sedge]

or buffing their existing effects (boring way)

[signal oasis]

1 stack 10% summon stats up to 10
2 stack 1.5% CR up to 10
3 stack 5% chain chance ect up to 6
4 stack .5% accuracy & dexterity up to 10.
5 stack 10% chain chance up to 6
6 stack 3% quick summon cast(1 turn less) up to 9
7 stack 3% POS no compound.
8 stack 1% quick summon cast
9 stack 10% more mag etc.
10 stack second chance is 75% on first death, 25% second ect.

Meaning at 10 stacks
100% summon stats
15% CR (or less)
35% pact chain chance
10% quick cast summons
5% accuracy & dext
3% POS
10% more likely for mag etc.(mage buffs) from hypact.
And at 10 stacks much greater chance of "second Chance" procing for the first time, degrading drastically with each proc.

This affects literally everything that makes hydrus feel bad, without making it "broken" or "too good"

This also solves the decree issue(except its atrocious magic stat)

[austere sedge]

honestly i doono it looks op but feels deserved too

[signal oasis]

Its the furthest from op

Summon stats is a mist

Must

Chain chance isnt too helpful for pacts but it allows you to semi functionally hypact for horde.

10% quick cast summons, is about as useful as "double summon" on a hydrus.

[austere sedge]

yeah but there are ton of effects

[signal oasis]

Dosent matter

They are all everything hydrus needs to stop feeling like a wet napkin.

[austere sedge]

their value may be decent but so many of them make me little confused

[signal oasis]

Ok "up to" means starting at this stack you gain xyz. And the benefits cap out at second number.

Hence I wrote the actual Stateline totals underneath it

[austere sedge]

honestly we need more input on this suggestion

I'm little doubtful but not entirely against it

[signal oasis]

Cr could be lowered a bit tbh. So that its 50% or 45%

Instead of 15% because that means 55% which is a touch strong.

An almost winning coin toss every time.

Because like yeah ascended summons would be cool. But being real as hydrus its not happening. The other fix for the summons being unable to survive in ang is just making summon stats an actual "stat" on hydrus.

So when you ascend you have a summon stats mulplicative that makes your summons resist slightly less competitively (living 3-4 hits) compared to the current 1-2 in FULL summon gear.

Which tanks your overall dps.

It shouldn't be "good at everything" but it should at very least be "ok at some things" because im sorry but BL2 isnt GSH its event gear.

And hypact isnt GSH but apparently it is now.

[signal oasis]

Also before you say it. No were not replacing the stats, the fact that our stats are locked behind a pay wall already is bs. The stat gains stay

[dusky ginkgo]

It says in the description that each summon slain is 10% stats for 100% stats at full charge

Hydrus/souls collected are stat increases per stack like every other class with a battle passives

Adding more to that would be unnecessary, and complicated

If 2min using HyPact is too long for a dungeon then BL2 and take 1min

If that’s too risky then use GSA like everyone says to for hordes

Yes, there are some bugs to iron out

Yes, if you can get enough people to discuss, the 2nd chance might warrant a revisit

Saying that GSH isn’t okay at plenty of content at this point feels like fishing for buffs. Which is fine but then say “I think it needs buffs because I want to do things even better”. When you say “at the very least good/okay at some things” you need to realize we are already “good/okay” at lots. If that “good” means “best” or “almost best” then say that.

—I do use GSH for everything including its t9 version on my alt.

[austere sedge]

uh how many ppl we need to revisit second chance again and again saying 'good' at lots isn't something many ppl said iirc

i could be wrong

and ofc it's better than previous gsh

everyone agree with it

and yeah t9 version is good for its stage

[dusky ginkgo]

Truth be told I don’t know on the second chance thing but I’d assume more than the six or seven of us semi regularly in this thread

Per “good”, my definition of “good” is “can I clear it consistently and in a reasonable amount of time?”

Raids: Yes
Horde dungeons: Yes
Towers: Yes
World Farm: Yes
PvP Offense: Yes
PvP Defense: NO
Anguish Raids: Yes
Anguish Horde Dungeons: Yes but loses some speed or safety and consistency at least up to Ang 20
Anguish Towers: Yes, see above - at least up to Ang 10
Anguish World Farm: Yes at least up to Ang 10

Hence my opinion of “it’s at least okay at a good amount of content.”

Saying the class needs things to “even be okay” isn’t backed up by the data we’ve seen in this thread especially as this is just one celestial in a class set

But I am happy to discuss bugs, pain points and/or things that could at least feel better (like the second chance)

[austere sedge]

i see

i already gave all suggestions above so i have nothing more to add (all i can do is give my opinion on other suggestions)

[bronze relic]

its pretty good as long u dont go beyond ang 20 😂

i mean gsh is pretty mediocre for everything except raids like u can do raids at ang 50 with gsh and be fine

[bronze relic]

could be a nice concept ig, but i dont think the devs will be bothered to fix something that's not broken for them

gsa just does it efficiently, and this could certainly put gsh onto something but if they really want it to be better it wouldve been done so a long time ago. The fact that they failed so bad to make it a horde class just like we discussed is saying a lot, they just got lucky that it unintentionally resulted into it being a good raider than base gs.

besides players are already loving gsh to perform at the bare minimum level except for raids ofc, everything outside of that is just ass

this is how strong gsh looks like before they messed it up

i never really understood why the downgrade of t. all +++ to t. all +, a lot of people including me said it that it is necessary cus we dont have any pets that provide it for us

besides even if u dont get t. mag +++ or any t. mags at all youll be fine with just t. all +++

that alone made it very strong for horde

ofc towers are another thing, cr & dmg split was the only issue that time or at least the last major concern then everything would be gucci

[bronze relic]

even if this is a shackled run i would still do a tremendous amount of dmg

this was the peak of gsh's performance

after the live release its just meh its alright ig, at least it can still raid

this version was also also the best of both worlds, can do dungeons and raid just fine

[dusky ginkgo]

So for you, anything that isn’t the best or at least top 2-3 is not good? (This isn’t a judgement, just a question)

[austere sedge]

beta gsh wasn't disappointing (outside sc)

[austere sedge]

eh damage split existed in beta hypa??

iirc beta hypa counted single summon damage independent so all 3 summon had equal damage on enemies

unlike now where hypa count all 3 summon

[austere sedge]

gsh could raid before too (it only needed al or luck)

everything about gsh was nerfed in live

damage split, ward turn thing, t. all

[austere sedge]

not very sure because i only used gsh when i did raids

[dusky ginkgo]

So if I’m understanding then, it’s not that GSH is bad, it’s that it’s worse than peak beta, therefore, since some people got a taste of a significantly stronger, possibly OP class, the Live version is just a disappointment?

[austere sedge]

you are right

if gsh was like this in beta then atleast we wouldn't be disappointed

we would say it's an improvement

but we get something cool that we like and are excited for then boom

it turned into a disappointment

[austere sedge]

also all good quality of gsh beta got nerfed

hypa spell got split (making it less versatile)

ward thing also got adjusted so now we have 0% ward absorption through hypa

and t. all+++ which was needed because it can't have pet

[dusky ginkgo]

This I do believe is a bug but yeah this is a frustration to me too

[austere sedge]

it's not

i asked odie

more like complained

it's intended

[fierce crag]

How does it currently work? It gives ward turns but 0% absorption (which means in this scenario it is completely useless)? But if you start, e.g., with ward turns (=50% absorption), then it works as expected?

[bronze relic]

not saying that it should be top 2-3, just saying that it couldve been much better than to what we have now

beta version felt like it was almost there

[dusky ginkgo]

Yes pretty much this

First round of something you can get ward turns but 0 absorption

Though for say dungeons, the next floor you should start with 50%

[bronze relic]

just because it functions well enough for low anguish, doesnt mean itll be great for mid-high anguish. I get it you're supposed to feel and face struggle because its high anguish but base on my trial and errors it barely performs at mid anguish. And also I was just putting a 2nd motion to his statements, I gave up a long ago on trying to make gsh the horde class it was supposed to be. But if people are gonna want it to be good at horde then ill just reiterate and bring up past points/documentations that i had given. And there's no reason to give up one aspect it shines at currently just for it to compensate for this specific content where it's supposed to shine at. I mean we can have both, that's been the case for beta and a strong gsh in horde means a stronger gsh in raiding. Ofc even if gsh is a monster compared to base gs at raiding 2nd chance doesnt work the best with it, so its not like you're just spamming hypa and like its stasis.

and as ive always said in the past, if u guys want gsh to be good at horde bring back t. all +++ and give it some increase on its cr rate because 40% is not gonna work and you'll not be able to do any content outside of dungeon.

heretic can ara vesta well enough for a full tower, gsh can't and for dungeons? good luck doing a full hypa run above ang 20+ its gonna be so slow to the point that u just have to switch to gsa to do the job for u.

bl2 could be fine for ang 20+ on gsh but with no t. all+++ you're pretty much cooked in most of your runs

[bronze relic]

for a full hypa run on dungeons, it gonna be somewhat viable because u have t. all+++ but without sufficient cr rate to back up the need for your hypa it just wont be possible to have a practical run

you're gonna be spending double if not thrice the usual time with your bl2 or jin + panda set up