GSH Rework - H2 Balance & Mechanics

[fathom kettle]

Gsh is raiding class not horde as of naw, with gsa being the horde.

[fathom kettle]

I would't mind single target dmg to be lowered while increasing aoe

[unique shuttle]

So decrease overall damage but make hypa true split damage?

[fathom kettle]

It could be like that, first make it in beta for tests tho.

[unique shuttle]

I can't say that damage is the main problem doe

In my runs I feel a huge lack of ammo and therefore I dont kill all enemies in one cast

I'd suggest to make hypa able to hit 3 targets with 2 summons and 4 with 3 and adjust the damage formula accordingly so it doesn't become too little damage into each target

[bronze relic]

hypa in any horde content would not be viable if the cr rate is too low or insufficient to supply a good amount of ammo. But that would also mean I could just spam hydrus pact mindlessly on raids buff a few turns and never worry about respawning or resummoning skeletons. Which could be somewhat braindead like stasis. But stasis is more braindead so there's no actual reason to not make the cr rate a bit higher. Chain chance is cool and all but it doesn't provide any value at all if the ammo is insufficient to support that synergy with chain chance.

instead of increasing the base cr of gsh, add a new item that boosts cr bye like 10% or just add a new passive on riftlocks that way it wouldn't dilute the eod pool more. Add that 10% cr on each riftlocks and this new passive will only work for gsh so it wouldn't be usable by any other gs classlines except for hydrus.

[fathom kettle]

Make it 3 for 2 summons, nerf single target and buff aoe by bit and its ALOT better for horde content

Despair would be viable too possibly

Depending on how the dmg split would go

[bronze relic]

I've proposed it before that Hydrus pact should be able to hit 3 enemies while having 2 summons. Then your damage will just get boosted further if u have 3 summons to get the max dmg output for hypa.

that way despair could be more doable as well as towers just a lil bit. For dungeons it could work that way as well but as I've mentioned, even if u can hit 3 enemies it's not going to be a viable set up since ammo is not keeping up

[final wagon]

Yes. The problem is this is dramatically worse than all other classes like not even comparable with literally all other classes and you still have a mammon problems (which is the only problem GSA dungeoning has)

[final wagon]

No pls no. Gsh is only playable in raids and it's impossible to make it good in dungeons anyway so at least leave it decent for raids (which is also why second chance is actually decent)

[unique shuttle]

So your opinion is to leave hypa as is?

[final wagon]

Even guaranteeing full AOE would not come vaguely close to all other classes

[final wagon]

Not nerfing it in raids at least. Even guaranteeing all targets would be meh in dungeons and despair (if damage splits). With meh I mean dramatically worse than bl2

[final wagon]

Why do you want gsh available in tower when GSA is the best tower class or close there?

I mean it can be a tad slow but I can do torment 42 shackled with gsa

which have fun trying doing with other classes

[bronze relic]

can't hurt to have a little variety, already am using gsa for everything at this point except raids a breathe of fresh air could be great

[tardy trail]

Ngl, I just wouldn't want to see it being nerfed where it's already good at, to maybe make it somewhat useable in a niche build, that'll probably still be worse than BL2 and GSA

Isn't that crit poise, the one that lets you keep your temps?

[unique shuttle]

That is

Gs mains only know gs passives

[final wagon]

more buffs to damage

[tardy trail]

Hmmm, thought you meant buffs as in literal buffs, temps in this case

But yeah, this is crit chain

[austere sedge]

someone please share your results on cc gsh in horde dgn etc

it might be good or bad

[dusky ginkgo]

So far, it is actually working pretty alright. I dislike that I'm basically locked into Dullahan gear but the gear isn't bad and doubles up on buff procs so it's fine

Slowly adding anguish as I figure out the "ideal" for this

I do think armor adorns that increased chain chance would be a nice addition and 2 summons killing three mobs is pretty great

[austere sedge]

hmm cr adorns are really needed

[rapid panther]

Using this currently

Storming tempest is the only non crit chain spell

And the lance is the only way to have it on 2h

Dmg is not bad

Wish I had a good beheaded swash torso for 5% extra chain chance

31% currently

There is no chain chance on amity right?

[rapid panther]

3 killing 4 is also pretty nice

Either armor adorn, an accessory or a 2h staff that is not hybrid with a bouncing skill

Dullah boots are a bit disappointing since they gove t atk

Don't know if I want to give up 40% pact dmg for another 5% chain chance

HyPa currently gives buffs, gives ward turns and hit up to 3 enemies, if it was autosustainable anymore than this it would be a bit busted

I can see it leaning on the chain chance with it only sacrificing up to 2 summons with the chance to hit up to 3 enemies (ara vesta 3 but pact)

It would also solve the raiding problem of the dmg split with summoning raids

[fathom kettle]

Give cr adorn 🙏

1% cr on armor pieces 😁

[austere sedge]

and 2% on higher quality

maybe 2 to 5% pact bonus

[fathom kettle]

What more, 6700 mag per armor adorn and maybe immunity to everything

Gotta be realistic, pact bonus adorn would be too op.

[austere sedge]

eh True

[unique shuttle]

Make it a celestial adorn

[austere sedge]

so it gives cr and pact or just cr

[unique shuttle]

Just cr, or small values of pact as well, like 5-7%

It can't be good at both

[austere sedge]

pact adorns have 20% iirc and it's main source of pact bonus so i don't think it being celestial is good

rather armour adorn for cr feel cooler

and better

[unique shuttle]

Well we already estabilished that it would be tooo strong

[austere sedge]

that was pact thing in armor adorn

but cr in armour adorn is supported iirc

few ppl said we will get it in rift event

though we didn't

[unique shuttle]

Who said that? 😹

[tardy trail]

Yeah, it was never confirmed, iirc

[austere sedge]

someone did

[austere sedge]

yeah ik

@unique shuttle here

there are few more

ofc i don't mean i thought it was guaranteed but few ppl think cr adorn isn't bad idea

[fathom kettle]

5 cr 5 pact cele augment on weapon would be fair

That's 75% less pact stat than what we ude

[unique shuttle]

So you saw some random people theorising about cr adorns? I see 😹

[unique shuttle]

Doesn't mean that "we will get it in rift event"

[unique shuttle]

More actually, since it all is multiplicative

[fathom kettle]

Yup, so maybe even 10 cr would be viable without being broken

For horde not exactly sure how it go since you'd be unable to use 2 handed weapons

So only pure hypa runs would be viable

[austere sedge]

exactly

i meant that ppl support that idea

[austere sedge]

i mentioned that for reason

you should read

[unique shuttle]

It's going off topic

[austere sedge]

i never mentioned that we will get it in rift duh

[austere sedge]

you misunderstood that's it

[unique shuttle]

And yet it's still off topic, let's drop these lyrics and focus on gsh, aye?

[austere sedge]

...

[unique shuttle]

Am I being not clear enough?

[vocal leaf]

we generally only update events when they are the main event of the month. Riftfall is the main event of Sept, so please don't expect Riftfall updates until then

[austere sedge]

understood

[unique shuttle]

But we can expect more updates to already updated events? That is nice to hear

[vocal leaf]

we update the main event every month

[final wagon]

I might be wrong but the update just let chain targeting work with HyPa, it didn't make it necessarily something we care about... I don't understand why we should rebuilding completely just for a 30% chance of hitting 4 instead of 3, or why that could ever be better than a finely tuned build (which means sequencer with pact celestial or bl2 2h) . anyway why not celestial BP + wind tamer shield? and crest items give 5% chain 5% tbuffs duration and 5% multi target damage so they might play a role instead of Dulla legs

[austere sedge]

can chain chance only hit one more instead of chance of hit all??

[final wagon]

It is chance of hitting one more

[austere sedge]

so all that work to hit 4

nah

[dusky ginkgo]

unless I'm mistaken, multitarget damage only buffs full AoE moves 😅 i.e BL2, Swansong, Despair, Envy, DTS, Mage's Dance/Pavane, Ara Vestaga 🥹

And while I like 5% buff duration, I'd almost assuredly take the 10% Chain chance from Dullahan gear myself. But this is why I think thief/mage/valhallan gear with higher chain chance or better synergies with chain chance would help here

I also don't think it'll top BL2 (and it shouldn't) but I'm still going to experiment for a while before I pass final judgement

[final wagon]

I think multi target buffs actions that are guaranteed to hit 2+ opponents so it doesn't buff the storm but it does buff hypa

[austere sedge]

i tried gsh with full dullahan set (didn't use adorn) and i like that sometimes i hit more enemies and i have lots of temp buff but it's damage is just too low I'm having difficulty defeating bosses when I'm just ang 5

i think it should get some stuff that helps gsh more in horde

[rapid panther]

tbh if there was a 2h only mag staff with a non crit chain skill it would already be better

[austere sedge]

this time i didn't use off hand and weapon of dullahan and it was bad

[bronze relic]

going chain chance will never be worth it

won't provide anything beneficial imo, auto summon % too low, hypa dmg split, hypa can only hit two enemies most of the time

sure u can have fun builds but is it actually worth it? like realistically speaking its not practical

40% auto summon is too low to support chain chance hypa set up

[dusky ginkgo]

I’m going to push on this “bad” and “never good” with some numbers

I ran at Anguish 5 with Shackles on. I’ve been running this most of the day:

1 Summon hitting 2 targets: 325k damage
2 Summons hitting 2 or 3 targets: 250k damage
3 Summons hitting 3 or 4 targets: 150k damage

I took one floor to add Golem’s Fortitude and Jinn’s Talent when I had one enemy left after killing the others

Gear was Purrly’s Hood (Fomor King Crown), Arisen Dullahan Cloak, Arisen Dullahan Boots, Dullahan Skull, Celestial Quarterstaff full of Pact Augments, 50% PosDur Amity - Breakdown:
-50% Positive Buff Duration
-35% Chain Chance
-100% Pact Power

Had zero issues just using HyPact. Once or twice I had to use a different move or summon dead but otherwise it was smooth sailing through

Better than BL2? No. But considering the raid performance of GSH, it should not be better than BL2 either

I’d be happy to get that Chain Chance slightly higher with some better gear or even summon gear themed around chain Chance but I think it’s far too early to write this off

[fathom kettle]

Hm, so you can't even one shot normal non boss t10 mobs at mid mel

The performance isn't just bad, its pathetic comming from horde class

If it was made for raids(it just happent to be good there), i'd understand but its horde class.

[dusky ginkgo]

Remember that shackled locks my AL to 9 which is a pretty big dip in damage

[bronze relic]

eh i dont really care, gsa does it better already

[dusky ginkgo]

And while I understand this sentiment, many have pointed out that GSA does quite well in towers and dungeons, so why not let GSH do its thing in Raids? The alternative would be asking for a complete flip flop of Hydrus Pact and I don’t think you’re going to find that much support for such

[bronze relic]

a real improvement and touch wouldve nice to make it good outside of raiding but thats too much ig

[fathom kettle]

Shackle locks your al by 9, not to 9 pretty sure.

[bronze relic]

gsa does everything better

atp

[dusky ginkgo]

To 9 lol

You can be pretty sure but that is incorrect. It locks an upper ascension of where you play the content at for that level of anguish

[dusky ginkgo]

Adjusted the gear to have an Arisen Autumna Shield 35% Chain to 30% was a noticeable drop in quantity

I found firing with 1 or 2 summons for a smaller damage split most effective:

1 Summon to 1 or 2 Targets: 600k-1.2m Damage 😅 (invisible summons probably)

2 Summons to 2 or 3 Targets: 320k damage

3 Summons to 3 or 4 Targets: 200k damage

So maybe that multi target damage does get Hydrus pact or I just had a lot of phantom summons

I don’t know there. But same setup - tMag 2 and 3 are up most of every run between buff duration, procs from HPact and the armor/gear

As per- I’d encourage everyone to try changes out, get numbers, screenshots, videos, whatever you think helps and then come to discuss what works, doesn’t work, feels good, feels bad, etc

[rapid panther]

Technically you could get a beheaded swash torso for 5 extra chance and fill a weapon with cursed spines instead of using cele staff

[unique shuttle]

Cele staff is too important to drop

[rapid panther]

And thats if you want the full chain route using only hypa, which is not the point imo, you should be using it here and there

[rapid panther]

I get numbers close to that with windtamer lance

[final wagon]

ok now try al9 other classes, even without bl2. try swangsong beoh or deity Ara qatvanga or RS thinblade and the like. they are all better AND THEY CAN CARRY. and they have to make fewer choice across the dungeon. when you are worse than all other classes why play it?

[final wagon]

yes that's the take. except Odie attempted gsh for dungeon so we fear modifications will happen toward that making the raiding worse (like removing 2nd chance) while still not being viable in dungeons. I tried to explain that without a pet, you need utterly broken mechanics to come up to par. when other classes have automatic effortless 4x stats (tmag/att+++ and tall+++) from pet, + other stuff, even 100% passive even if we started the dungeon with it is not even remotely enough. we need like tall+++ chance on hypa which would be super broken and so require cuts elsewhere

i mean with HyPa guaranteeing full aoe and tall+++ from HyPa I still don't think we would be better than bl2 beoh

[fierce crag]

I also really hoped that split aoe will be changed to the usual 1/3 instead of 1/9 against 3 opponents. It would still be split aoe AND can't hit all enemies. I intended to wait for this change before playing gsh dungeons (not because it's better than BeoH but at least good). Without this fix, currently I don't see how gsh can be used for (shackled) dungeons.

[final wagon]

when doing random tries the problem isn't the hypa damage vs 3 targets

i mean it's not in the top5 problems

[final wagon]

btw gsh dungeoning has another inherent problem, more than what's usual for other classlines, in the fact that the malus path for Mel is completely different GSA vs gsh. GSA actively seeks permabonus fade (both for endless and high mel GSA yel) and disregards multi target damage and crit damage while gsh (for the damage portion of 2h weapons if we want to have them) needs permabuffs and to dodge aoe and crit maluses. so I can't even test anything properly at a non-irrelevant Mel level

[dusky ginkgo]

A more accurate comparison would be try other classes without a 2H AoE

The best example would be Heretic Ara with Ara Vesta/Vestaga and the new Ruairc Archistaff to be able to endlessly mass AoE.

Or RS relying on Avidity

But Beo and Deity don’t have any AoE moves of their own (sans Apex or a Pet) and would have to rely on those without using a 2H weapon or a move from another class (also fine)

Comparing it to Ara Vesta III/IV, I’d say I prefer Hydrus Pact because no crit maluses to avoid and get hosed in Anguish

Comparing to Avidity without a 2H weapon, I still much prefer it

Comparing it Ara Vestaga with a Ruairc Archistaff, I’d say Vestaga is better but like 2H weapons locks you into 2 specific weapons

Yes, 2H weapons are going to beat out Hydrus Pact i.e Swansong, BL2, sorta Despair, DTS, etc but those also lock both your weapon slots down

To me Hydrus Pact is even more so in a weird “I am my own thing” ability spot. It’s a true AoE but also a partial AoE that doesn’t technically require any specific weapon or gear to make work while awarding the Hydrus Summoner with a ton of buffs

[dusky ginkgo]

Per Odie, changing the formula to behave “normally” like other split moves would reduce the raid damage by the same amount it would increase dungeon damage

If it didn’t it would likely be changed to as a monster raider and monster dungeon AoE would be too much for a single class celestial

[dusky ginkgo]

^^^ Test, get numbers, come with concerns and feedback.

[unique shuttle]

I don't see why we wouldn't compare 2h aoe when it's right there. There's a reason nobody uses innate to classes aoes like ara vesta on main basis. Also rs doesn't have aoe skills and avidity sucks without them

[austere sedge]

iirc other class don't have aoe spells too

since gsh has one it should be able to utilize it

when aoe spell is needed

[fierce crag]

I think I just don't agree with the consequence. Why can't you maintain the high damage against single opponents (raids) and still implement normal split damage (dungeons)? I don't think that this would result in exceptional horde capabilities. Or let's say it differently: which (shackled) anguish level can you do with gsh?
The original intend of gsh rework was to improve dungeon performance iirc.

[crystal girder]

What is up "Brainstorming Club"!!

[dusky ginkgo]

I think we are underselling the lack of being glued to a specific weapon that takes up both main and offhand slots - not to mention not needing to build crit

I’m not saying Hydrus Pact is perfect or can’t be improved, I’m saying we should all be testing and giving feedback.

Doom and Gloom from the same 2-3 people (not you) with limited/no testing isn’t helping the discussion at all and just gums up actual feedback

[twin crystal]

Ha, lets not even mention the unintended effect of Hypact on pvp

[dusky ginkgo]

I’m not sure it was unintended. In beta it was arguably even stronger than it is in PvP now. And there are some pretty hard counters to Hydrus Pact as the locals where I live have been teaching me the hard way

On the vein of not being mysterious and because I enjoy trying to find ways around what other players come up with,

I struggle (less than a 50% win rate) against:

-High HP + Ward
-Pet Block, Bone Mammoth most especially
-Parapet/Second Chance
-Ward Recovery
-Dexterity/Dodge
-Summoners
-AoE moves especially on BoF/DoF/Avidity classes
-Status Builds/Assassins

Ironically, that’s pretty similar to what most builds struggle against though ward based builds can usually tank a hit or two and recover whereas Hydrus Pact can not

Even Blood Ray which skips the Pet Block, Dex/Dodge and Summoners also struggles against the rest of those

But as this is a GSH thread, we don’t need to open that can of worms here

[final wagon]

crit isn't mandatory for 2h builds. You can build 15x solar mortar and it can be actually better at some anguish levels as it allows you to pick crit maluses (which then become irrelevant) dodging other maluses. I did test hypa in dungeons. It's truly embarassingly bad adn far worse than everything else i ever played in dungeons (including gsa). It's not doom it's just a fair assessment

like old mage dance builds on normal classes are better than gsh hypa

[fierce crag]

I am seriously interested: which (shackled) anguish level (mel) can you do with gsh? I was mainly trying to build around bl2, which was working for low Anguish, but I was not very successful for slightly increased anguish level. But I would really like to try different builds. Or maybe with switching from very tanky build to damage dealing when 100% passive is active? I just haven't found a way yet.

[final wagon]

and again the fact you cannot carry alone is already extremely significant: it means no alt play which is a dramatic nerf vs all other classes. So even if hypa dungeoning was on par with other classes (it isn't even remotely) it would still be a lot worse than them just because of this

[crisp storm]

Anyone see the Instagram post? New raid, says not to miss it if you've been playing GSH.....hmmmn

[dusky ginkgo]

My Melancholy is only at 6 but it’s doing fine there so far 🤷‍♂️ I’ll work on getting that up this evening and keep you posted

I’m not sure I like it better than Despair and buff duration with tanky gear but that build also uses Hydrus Pact to get buffs and finish things off

[dusky ginkgo]

I disagree with mages dance being better especially for a new t10

But otherwise, great response! Can you post your Hydrus Pact numbers for comparisons? I know you do quite a bit of testing on things too 😁

[final wagon]

i run some mel 17 yesterday to confirm, the hypa dealt 800kx2 , 1.4m to single target, ofc that's when buffs are aligned

(shackled ofc)

tried to run something like this

on DoF

hypa damage is not the problem

could actually try full orichalcum adorns

but again it's neve rgoing to be better than gsa so why bother

[dusky ginkgo]

Got it, so what would the goal be here?

More consistency of summon ammo? More consistency of chain Chance? To bridge closer to GSA?

Or to just let GSH be what it is as a raid machine?

And is this goal/issue something that could be solved by additional gear/adorns?

(Just trying to help refine issues/possible solutions here)

[unique shuttle]

Hypa needs both to hit more targets and be more consistent with summon ammo

[tardy trail]

Just don’t maim its single target damage

[austere sedge]

hypa is costly

take 3 summon

to hit 3 enemies

and sometimes split damage make me unable to kill

and horde summon are weak af so they die with anything

so gsh in horde needs more than chain chance

chain chance is good but not enough

[austere sedge]

hmm i want to have recharge like passive for mana and hp sustain or a pact that restore hp and mana

[dusky ginkgo]

Good thing you’ve got amities, gear and adornment options for that!

[austere sedge]

yeah

but i tried dullahan head and my life syphon was zero

and mana regen isn't that good

amity is only hope

[dusky ginkgo]

If that’s how you feel, best get amity hunting then

[austere sedge]

i need buff duration and mana regen and hp regen amity

in one

feel close to impossible

ig i will have to wait (a lot)

[dusky ginkgo]

There are 3 HP Regen amities across OL and RC discords right now. We just had a 50% PosDur and 5% HP amity a few weeks ago

[unique shuttle]

You can use acorns

Or mana generation anguish passive

[austere sedge]

acorn mana regen is lil too low but yeah there are options

[austere sedge]

i might try that

[unique shuttle]

Iirc top roll can replace 6 acorns

[austere sedge]

damn

[final wagon]

just leave gsh as a good raiding option

[tardy trail]

For hp regen just use an ashen ruby

[final wagon]

which is why celestial + shield builds are not allowed

or 2h celestial (i tried them all)

[austere sedge]

i can't on off hand weapon like dullahan skull 😔

gsh could be good at raid and decent-good at horde

i don't find that unbalanced

[austere sedge]

i don't think gsh is good in raid as ang increase though when star (buff) align you would do heavy damage in raid in high ang too

i combined 2 statement and wrote this abomination

so gsh being good and decent in horde and raid isn't unbalanced

[unique shuttle]

Gsh is good in raid in high anguish too depending on raid

[austere sedge]

i see

since devs are trying to get chain chance on gsh and chain chance gear that I've seen have similar atk and mag stat

i think losing t. def and t. res for t. atk and getting hybrid option could be good

that's too much work for devs tho

but it's just a suggestion

[unique shuttle]

T.att doesn't do anything for hypa, whether it's hybrid or not

[austere sedge]

if hypa was hybrid it would've been affected by t. atk right?

[unique shuttle]

Wrong

Hybrid doesn't change what buffs a spell or a skill is affected by

[tardy trail]

Yeah, that’s only stats

[austere sedge]

hybrid confusing

since chain chance gear give same mag and atk stat i think gsh should be able to utilize them

[unique shuttle]

Use hybrid amity then

[austere sedge]

i will try experimenting

[bronze relic]

there's also another issue with gsh, when you're in a party of 4 like carrying your alts for example your summons would only be 2 right? and then its kinda ass that when u need to hypa the dmg is so slow and sometimes can't even finish off some mobs cus of the dmg split

its just not efficient for that job

u can never reach max output or dmg on a full party of 4

u'll never have access to that portion of power in hypa

[dusky ginkgo]

To that effect, either allowing an extra summon in party play and/or nfntyexpanson’s suggestion of letting 1 summon hit 2 targets (no split damage), 2 summons hit 3 targets (split damage) and 3 summons hitting 4 targets (further split damage) and chain Chance gear would go a long way I believe if something were to change that wouldn’t bust the move/class open wide

I gave it a whirl in towers today and it went okay to my surprise but not getting any damage buffs from chests and walking into the higher health packs of enemies was a recipe for disaster

[rapid panther]

or we can lean more into the chain chance, 1 summon hit 1 targets (no split damage) with chance to bounce on a 2nd target, 2 summons hit 2 targets (split damage) with chance to bounce on a 3rd target and 3 summons hitting 3 targets (further split damage) with chance to bounce on a 4th target, adding chain chance from gear means (taking the 3 summon sacrifice as example) that you have very high chance to hit 4 and little chance to hit 5

[austere sedge]

if we use dullahan armor and leggings and use pact staff with nekromancer staff (for ashen ruby) our chain chance isn't enough

to be consistent

i have to use dullahan skull

[dusky ginkgo]

Use the Spinal Whip full of Cursed Shards in the offhand

[austere sedge]

and that cuts my life syphon

[austere sedge]

pact bonus is close to none then

Still I'm upgrading my spinal trap so i will test it

[dusky ginkgo]

Pact QStaff isn’t none lol

[austere sedge]

when i focus on chain chance ara vesta feels better than hypa lol

[austere sedge]

i misread

my bad

[dusky ginkgo]

👍 👍

[austere sedge]

so spinal trap in off hand instead of dullahan skull for life syphon and more chain chance

you are genius

I'm happy

[dusky ginkgo]

It’s not perfect, but I do think with hopefully future better chain Chance and/or more pact gear/adorns, we have something cooking

Still won’t top BL2 or Despair but It’ll be something unique and viable

[austere sedge]

if we get better cr i can peacefully sacrifice pact bonus

chain chance is fun

[dusky ginkgo]

I think if we get much better CR than we’ve got, GSH becomes a nightmare in PvP 😅 but I understand the desire for sure

[austere sedge]

if we can somehow sacrifice lil bit of pact bonus for cr it could be better

so gsh can be little more consistent

since sometimes excess damage isn't needed

but that every situational

[austere sedge]

we could get adjustments

[dusky ginkgo]

I think (probably a not gonna happen) a future book offhand with chain Chance and small pact damage (or buff duration) + some Ward or defenses would go a long way

[austere sedge]

ward and defense really isn't needed

i rather get more cc, cr and pact bonus

[dusky ginkgo]

Usually items with a lot of benefits come with class specifics/some detriments - and while I understand blast and go is a ton of fun too, I am a big fan of slower tank and safety if it means I get to admire my screen of 10,000 temp buffs 😂

[austere sedge]

yeah that's just difference in opinion i think more cc, Pact (blah blah) is needed while you think defense

[dusky ginkgo]

GSH is second to only really Deity in the ability to stack temp buffs and tank everything while still dealing damage

My go to dungeon build is still arisen Qatvanga full of Orichalcum Mortars with tanky armor on because I become unkillable and just Despair my way through, using HyPact to proc buffs/finish off big targets as needed

[austere sedge]

hmm i see

potential builds on gsh are dependent on devs future updates

[dusky ginkgo]

Though of course ward tanking is significantly safer than stat tanking

[austere sedge]

i just wish we get something that help when less summon are on field instead of more summon on field

to replace current second chance

[dusky ginkgo]

I’m likely in the minority but I think our second chance is wicked cool

Also- we have something to help with less summons on the field: temp buffs and battle passive 😎 which is also why I think buff duration amities/Orichalcum mortars are so darn important

[austere sedge]

but our second chance doesn't help when it's needed so even if it's cool it's not that good for gsh

rn i try to keep atleast 2 summon for survivability

and if you aren't tank then t. def and t. res buff aren't that helpful

[dusky ginkgo]

I think you might need to think outside of the box on that one

[dusky ginkgo]

Sirith’s screenshot of tanking an anguish 35 raid at AL0 while in non tank gear would disagree with that statement

[austere sedge]

uh can you share that?

[austere sedge]

i wanted dodge but ppl here hate it so much

I'm thinking for another alternative

[dusky ginkgo]

I mean more - think with what the class has right now, what can best utilize everything it’s got-

With a combination of:
-t.Buffs
-Damage largely dependent on Pact Power and buffs rather than Magic
-Flexible Chest, Shoes, Accessories, Amities and can usually get away with off brand Offhands or Helmets as needed
-Second chance that can 50% charge battle passive at best or 10% at worst
-Destructible ammo
-Limited ammo
-Can equip summon protect but lacks innately

What issues does the class have and what gear/adorns/amities can help overcome it?

That’s what I mean by thinking outside of the box- don’t just look at what you feel the class lacks, but try and work with what it has and be creative

I say this as I use the class for literally everything right now 😅 though I guess not a ton for endless but I have plans for goofy builds there too beyond hiding behind summons

[austere sedge]

i mean second chance is a flaw in gsh

something that work negative for me

[rapid panther]

paired essence is already nerfed in pvp, nothing blocks them from having special nerf in pvp only

[austere sedge]

if i lose it without gaining anything i wouldn't even mind

[dusky ginkgo]

I’m aware. And thank goodness for that. I don’t want summoners to return to their release shenanigans ever again 😂

[rapid panther]

i don't play live pvp enpugh to know what you are referring too lol

and with gsh you need only 1 bulky summon to max blood pact dmg

[dusky ginkgo]

It hurts us far less than BeoH’s second chance hurts them and provides passive charge like other class’s second chances. I understand you can’t HyPa anymore but don’t rely on just one ability in content even if HyPa is almost there

[rapid panther]

i don't think hypa was meant to be the main dmg spell at the start since it gives a load of utility

[dusky ginkgo]

Ah I misread passives-

But long story short to what I was referring to, when summoner class was released: summons could basically block infinitely and other classes lacked AoE. This lasted for almost 2 years where Summoner was objectively the best class in the game, 2x so if you wanted to PvP

[rapid panther]

wait, the cap on summon protect was put like 3 month after release iirc

[dusky ginkgo]

Though I did not follow super close, I was under the impression that temp buffs were added as a “we get something for throwing away our shields”

[rapid panther]

also, that was for the lack of buffs from followers

[dusky ginkgo]

Yup that too

[dusky ginkgo]

You know, it was long enough ago, I might have misremembered but I do recall the nightmare of losing everything to t8 summoners and being unable to kill them 😂

Goodness help everyone who lost stuff to t9s and t10s xD

There’s a reason I wrote the Orna song parody making fun of the dark days of Grand Summoner’s introduction.

The irony of now finding the celestial GSH the coolest class in the game isn’t lost on me

[tardy trail]

Battalions?

[rapid panther]

that and in BoF you only start with 1 summon regardless of your paired essence level

[tardy trail]

No, yeah

[tardy trail]

Also this kinda used to be true, but now you're lacking a decent amount of summon hp if you're starting with one single summon

Since GSH had its summon stats reduced after the rework

You need around 120-125k hp summon hp to hit cap in pvp*

[rapid panther]

with 1 ancient dragon you are still pretty close, you need minimal investment

[tardy trail]

Cap as in the limit it has, where it doesn't scale further with summon hp

Same build

And around 20% less damage, which checks out from 100k to 125k summon hp

[rapid panther]

yeah but with enough mag is not that much of a loss

granted i still use both summons to deal with second chances

but in BoF, no AL and so on, you get enough dmg from 1 summon

[tardy trail]

Yeah, and you can also kinda use HyPa, although CR and mass summon spells mess with the house rules big time

But that's another story

[dusky ginkgo]

So Kheper Swarm’s second chance and Reraise are quite the boon against AoE raids in my testing thus far

And I’ve started taking Maji or Bard as my spec to field clear against Osiris before using HyPact

[unique shuttle]

Good morning folks. I've got an awesome, mind-blowing, incredible recording of me clearing a melancholy 18 dungeon as a gsh!
...duration in 5 minutes split into two parts. The videos are pending, bear with me

Was it good? No! Was it fun? No! Would I do it again? No!
...well, unless I have to test it some more

[austere sedge]

hmm show

we need more info

for better updates

[unique shuttle]

Bear with me

[austere sedge]

i will plague instead since I'm no bear

[austere sedge]

@unique shuttle can you share gear and amity 👀

[final wagon]

only 5 min! 😅

[unique shuttle]

Double 50 pos duration

[unique shuttle]

We can blame one minute on my terrible internet 😹

[final wagon]

only 4 min!

[unique shuttle]

Record breaking

[austere sedge]

no pact bonus ig build is dependent on off hand

[unique shuttle]

What offhand

[austere sedge]

so is gsh in decent condition in horde

[final wagon]

no

[austere sedge]

i mean despair

[unique shuttle]

No 😹😹😹

[austere sedge]

what kind of buff can be helpful?

[unique shuttle]

It was the worst dungeon run I've had in past month

[rapid panther]

Oh god manually casting dc in dungeons

[final wagon]

meanwhile att-based classes got insane buffs for horde: tatt+++ (in some sense overdued, as mag had it for a long while), but now +att + 2% crit armor adorn which is even at standard a significant improvement for att based classes over perfect broken AP + 200 ornate pinion lol

[unique shuttle]

I could use gods of aaru head tbf, and t.all^^^ feels mandatory for both damage and survival. But yeah, it's terrible

[rapid panther]

Even a 2 turns buffs seems too much in dungeons

(I play too much with diety)

[unique shuttle]

I want gear that has 20% charon ritual on the first turn of the battle. So you're guaranteed to get more ammo on turn two of a fight. This way it helps with clearing towers and dungeons (important part here is to make every floor count as a separate fight) and it doesn't really improve raiding to keep it balanced. Of course this alone doesn't drastically change situation, I still think hypa needs to be able to hit more targets. Thoughts?

[rapid panther]

floor already count as separate fights, paired essence wouldn't procc otherwise

[unique shuttle]

That's good then

[fierce crag]

This looks horrible! I have no idea why this inspires me to try some GSH dungeons later 😂

[unique shuttle]

It's the only build I managed to make work at 18 mel btw 😹
Imagine how bad others are

[fierce crag]

I also tried it before. And my takeaway somewhere above was "currently I don't see how gsh can be used for (shackled) dungeons." But now I know: you found a way 😂

[unique shuttle]

Well, I wouldn't call it being able to be used honestly. With gsa I can clear higher anguish and faster

[fierce crag]

Yeah, this wasn't meant serious. With BeoH, I can run horde boss in around 2 min, so 5 min is not really an option here.

[unique shuttle]

It's 4 minutes, excuse my bad connection

[fierce crag]

Oh, so almost 3 min! I think we are getting somewhere, maybe just a few tweaks here and there... 🤔

[austere sedge]

nah gsh is most overpowered see how many buff it has don't care about how it was going

[unique shuttle]

Unironically buffs are what I like the most when I raid with gsh

However for dungeons even with all these buffs the base power is just not enough

[austere sedge]

hypa isn't dependable in horde

when it should be

hypa in horde is buff source

while you use 2h weapon

not something that's good (i think)

[fathom kettle]

Tbf, we should give up gsh being for horde, and just make odie and everyone to stop talking about gsh being horde but raiding class

[austere sedge]

hypa should be independent aoe instead of just buff source

[austere sedge]

gs is still overtaking it

[fathom kettle]

Making hypa good for horde would either make it broken in raids or total rework

[unique shuttle]

That's quiter talks brotato

[austere sedge]

no

[unique shuttle]

My suggestions don't make it broken in raids doe

[austere sedge]

it wouldn't

[fathom kettle]

Gsa duo yes, but even ancient said he uses hypa on few raids

[austere sedge]

hypa being decent in horde and good-decent in raid doesn't make gsh unbalanced

[fathom kettle]

Gsh is alr good maybe also one of top solo raiding options

What can you do to not make hypa unbalanced in raids while being good in horde? Only thing i can think of rn is split

[austere sedge]

rn hypa deal around 1/9 of damage iirc

[fierce crag]

Raids is usually against single enemies. You just need higher AoE damage

[austere sedge]

fixing that and with chain chance option

and cr gear /adorn

gsh would be in better position

[fierce crag]

How is HyPa AoE split damage currently working again? I think something like 1/3 m1 AND split damage against 3 enemies, which means max 1/9 damage (less against tanky enemies)?

[unique shuttle]

Read up

[fierce crag]

(against cactus it is 1/9, but that is likely due to low def/res)

[unique shuttle]

@fierce crag

[fierce crag]

ah, thanks! so even worse: 1/9 m1...

never mind, i don't know. I have to read it again 😂

No, if I understand it correctly, my previous statement seems to be right? So 3:3 meaning 1/3 m1 and split damage (compared with 3:1)?

[unique shuttle]

Seems to be the case

[fierce crag]

at least the m1 reduction to 1/3 seems not to be enough, right?

[unique shuttle]

I'm not sure I can do math rn, I have a headache 😅

[fierce crag]

I just mean: our experience is that damage per enemy reduced to 1/9 in 3:3 sitations (compared to 3:1)? Whereas Odies explanation implies m1 is reduced to 1/3, which would not be enough to explain the observations.
(I am just not sure anymore whether I had tested it with anguish, so maybe the strong damage reduction - much more 1/3 - was also a consequence of higher def/res).

so split AoE is the additonal M2 reduction (x1/3)

[final wagon]

yes like this

[fierce crag]

Thanks! I already started testing it again, but for testing (and only there) all the t.mag buffs are a bit annyoing 😅

[austere sedge]

rhada pact 2 can help ig

[fierce crag]

didn't think about it 🤣

[final wagon]

anyway the new summon spell is a small but guaranteed upgrade to the build for raiding, not bad

wondering if it might work for dungeons as the only summon spell we bring

[austere sedge]

may or may not

since it has second chance

it can survive hits and aoe

but you are dependent on cr

[fierce crag]

I still can't make sense of my (maybe too few) data.

• For 1:1 vs 2:1 vs 3:1 (summons:targets), it indeed seems to be a damage multiplier of 1 (baseline) vs 4 vs 9.
• But for 2:2 vs. 3:3 vs. 3:2 the damage PER ENEMY seems to be 1 vs 1 vs 9/4.

So my current damage formula (no idea how to split it into m1 and m2) would rather be:

• HyPa_Damage_per_Enemy = (summons/targets)^2
• HyPa_Damage_total = (summons/targets)^2 x targets = summons^2/targets

Which would be quite different from what Odie stated above 🤔

[fierce crag]

Ah, probably m1=1.5x(summons/targets), and the spell is "casted" for each summon. This would have the same total effect as m2=summons (split per target).

[rapid panther]

so 3 against 1 you have m1=3 + m2=3

but 3 against 3 is m1=1 + m2=1

[fierce crag]

Yes, that's at least my hypothesis. The total damage (factor 9) should be correct, but I don't know whether the split into m1 and m2 is correct. But assuming that odies statement is correct, then this should be the case.

The double counting of (summons and) targets in m1 AND m2 is a bit confusing, though. (And if Hypa would be changed from split AoE to full AoE, then the total damage would still be reduced to 1/3 if it is against 3 instead of 1 target, or even more because it is m1).

[fierce crag]

Ah, but everything with factor 1.5.

[rapid panther]

having it depending on number of targets in both m1 and m2 is quite strange

[fierce crag]

So m1 =1.5 vs 4.5

[final wagon]

guys it's just that it does 1/3 than it should 3 vs 3

[fierce crag]

2 vs 2 seems to be 25% damage in comparison to 2:1, so much more reduction than 50% from split damage. Which would be in line with 50% m1 and additionally split damage.

[rapid panther]

if the calc are correct it means the damage is intended to be as it is currently

[fathom kettle]

Odie said that's how the split should be

Here

[austere sedge]

with new patch notes i think devs want gsh to use chain chance hmm

[dusky ginkgo]

60% Pact on a 2H weapon (non Celestial) with Chain Chance means we can fully utilize Spinal Shards or add buff duration and we can get an anguish bonus on it

I’ll definitely be testing and reporting back 😁

[austere sedge]

@dusky ginkgo give us information

i mean result

[rapid panther]

My gripe is that off hand spell still don't work with charon ritusl or paired essence

[austere sedge]

it really needs to

[final wagon]

just equip the new spell and it goes auto anyway i don't understand

[rose path]

Guys i think there is a bug with GS when raiding duo
My summon dead/spooky ghost fails occasionally, while when raiding solo it never ever fails

Rate seems to be something like 3/10 times it fails

Bug reported

Anyone experiencing similar thing?

[austere sedge]

maybe invisible summon thing

if all 5 summon are there spell fails

[dusky ginkgo]

I’m actually pretty sure GSH can just fail to summon. Kinda like BeoH can fail to call

I’ve had it happen in solo raids too

[rose path]

Thing is i never experience it in solo raiding

[dusky ginkgo]

Yet

[rose path]

Never ever ever

And in duos its quite consistent

[austere sedge]

it never happened to me

and i use gsh regularly so it's weird

[rose path]

Yeah I think maybe ur mistsken, really it never ever ever ever fails in solo raiding

[austere sedge]

can you tell me which class you and another person was using?

[rose path]

While in duos it fails 3/10 times or so

[rose path]

Me gsh obviously

Other dude deity

[austere sedge]

and who used hypa

or bp

you?

since you were in party max summon possible is 4 and hypa consume 3

and you used gsh so likely hypa was used

and can you tell me about summon you used?

[rose path]

Me

[austere sedge]

uh now that we know the problem my questions are unnecessary

[unique shuttle]

Never saw that. What summon did you had it with?

[rose path]

Wow really?

[rose path]

Odie explained now

When field is full with invisible summons it will fail

Eventhough summons are not showing

[unique shuttle]

That is one reason

But there are some summon spells with innate fail chance

[rose path]

Idk about that

Like hidden fail chance?

[austere sedge]

only scarecrow iirc

[unique shuttle]

And charons grimouire

[austere sedge]

really?

wow

[dusky ginkgo]

VSS

[unique shuttle]

Not sure about that one

[austere sedge]

@dusky ginkgo that fail happens because of invisible summon bug

[rapid panther]

what's the point to have a summon off hand spell at that point then, also this is not the only gear where we have this issue

[austere sedge]

if all 5 slot are taken by invisible summon then any summon spell will fail

[dusky ginkgo]

Well, yes, but then using HyPa with an empty screen and getting a zero would suggest that isn’t the case

[austere sedge]

if we had something that give our temp buff pool reraise on using final decree

it will be fun

[austere sedge]

oh

that's weird

[final wagon]

why would someone use gsh in duo

[austere sedge]

donno

[fierce crag]

(travelling back in time to 2024...) why not? I am using GSA+GSH duo all the time!

[austere sedge]

hmm i tried final decree and it's not that good it's lacking few things

i event tried an alternative (pact staff and spinal whip)

spinal whip had 5 spinal shard adorn and 2 ashen ruby

it was better but still lacking

[austere sedge]

buff idea for gsh

1. Paired essence 5 (chance to get 3 summon on first turn instead of usual 2)

2. Gsh now has 6 summon slot instead of 5

[austere sedge]

oh i have another idea

3. Excess summon :- Allow user to store excess summon and these summon doesn't appear in battle field until summon slot is free

so if my field is filled with summons

cr and spell can store summon in nether realm

and when any summon die these summon take those slot

total excess summon slot could be 3

this might make gsh second chance lot better too

[rose path]

Nope

Ur asking for infinite summons

[austere sedge]

was it that easy to tell

🫣

[austere sedge]

@dusky ginkgo did ya test final decree 👀

[dusky ginkgo]

Yes I did - it works but isn't quite there yet- especially going up against a Celestial Staff + Fomor Crest (shield) or a Celestial Staff + Arisen Spinal Whip

My current hope is for a Holy or Dark AoE to be added to it instead of Summon Khepir + a bit more chain chance (Aaru Pact? Aaru Decree? Something?)

That would turn it into a weapon that would be pretty solid against Summon Raids and respectable use for horde runs

[austere sedge]

i want Charon ritual passive on it and maybe some good source of reraise

i now like chain chance

and pact staff with spinal whip is my go to

[dusky ginkgo]

I've thought of that but I personally think adding Reraise to Charon's Ritual would be a bit much for PvP's sake

[dusky ginkgo]

Yeah, it's a cool build

Even if without the AoE spell, it would be cool to just get a barrel of chain chance.

But my hope is both for the sake of a unique, somewhat niche, but very useable weapon

[austere sedge]

i had a question

can i get full aoe through cc

or only 4 is possible

[dusky ginkgo]

Not to the best of my knowledge, no - if we ever had the chance to go over 100% chain chance, maybe it would be possible but right now we max at 4 per cast on Hydrus Pact

[austere sedge]

True but other class get to use reraise comfortably

so I'm little selfish

[austere sedge]

i see

[dusky ginkgo]

Sorta and they already got it nerfed xD us GS players will have to work at it to top that floor 5000+ run on a heretic

[austere sedge]

cc armor adorn would be helpful

[austere sedge]

ik

but it's still good

[dusky ginkgo]

Reraise being added via Final Decree would also kind of make it a must get item which I don't think is the intent

Chain chance armor adorn would be very nice. I agree

[austere sedge]

now it's 80% second chance iirc

[austere sedge]

maybe 5% chance of reraise

it's good and maybe not overpowered

[dusky ginkgo]

Armor adorns feel like something GSH has a very flexible opening for so I'd be happy to get Chain Chance as a solid option A

[austere sedge]

yea

[dusky ginkgo]

I think if we want Reraise on GS, we're going to need to work with the sandals and our Khepirs. They aren't bad at it even if much less reliable than a Mimic and that's OK.

[austere sedge]

eh i see summon i sacrifice

and only golden can reraise and he take 2 turn

and sandals

hmm

could work

but we will have to sacrifice 10% cc and buffs

[dusky ginkgo]

Does he though? I feel like I've seen him fire it off in one go - but then again maybe he started casting after appearing at the end of my turn and so I just assumed it was one turn

[austere sedge]

t buff *

[austere sedge]

maybe invisible summon thing or you didn't notice

it take 2 turn for reraise

[dusky ginkgo]

I mean I'd be happy to push for the armor to get some Chain Chance as well xD but I'm also kind of curious to try it out for Summoner Swashbuckling since it has negative defenses

And ward and a barrel of HP

Won't be good. Our attack is bad. But it might be fun lol

[dusky ginkgo]

That is probably it

[austere sedge]

hmm

my another concern is second chance because we still don't have any replacement

[unique shuttle]

180 base attack on gsh

[austere sedge]

and any second chance that scale with more summon = more second chance % is bad

[dusky ginkgo]

But anyway, per Final Decree, my current opinion is it doesn't do anything better for the niche chain chance builds

5% -> 20-30% CC would fulfil its niche well
5% -> 15-20% CC + High Pen/Lower Damage AoE would solidify it in that role for me

[austere sedge]

because we need second chance when we are weak

[dusky ginkgo]

I actually don't agree with this - especially since we can summon at the end of the turn after attacking per Charon's Ritual.

It's a little weird but feels like a solid Second Chance to me

Especially as it does charge our battle passive when summons die

[austere sedge]

current second chance never helped me lol

[unique shuttle]

Second chance is a passive that is the best for pvp. If your pve build has to rely on second chance to be effective, that it's either not a good build or not a good class in the first place

[austere sedge]

passive charging thing is never a problem

[austere sedge]

maybe your just have skill issue (my case)

[dusky ginkgo]

GSH's second chance has helped me in towers, dungeons, raids and PvP so I like it myself. It's not the best second chance out there but I certainly prefer to Beo Hydrus's who share our celestial namesake

[austere sedge]

i just want a reliable survivability passive

current second chance isn't reliable to me

because in horde my summon die quickly

[dusky ginkgo]

Like what? Second Chance, Mana Rush, etc, none of them are particularly reliable

[austere sedge]

in raid yeah it's more useful

[dusky ginkgo]

They work when they work, and you die anyway when they don't

[austere sedge]

dodge, second chance that isn't dependent on no. of summon

[unique shuttle]

I haven't played much of gsh outside of raids and testing it. It's unreliable at high anguish, and inferior to gsa in horde content still

[austere sedge]

that's just how second chance work XD

[unique shuttle]

I think steadfast would be nice to have

[unique shuttle]

And second chance doesn't change it whatsoever

[austere sedge]

little more helpful but doesn't directly help when gsh is vulnerable

when you have 1 or 2 summon

[dusky ginkgo]

Inferior to GSA is fine. GSA is a safe and reliable class if a bit slow and that's great

Unreliable is part of the challenge to me

The fact that the class can do everything is good and exciting and I find it interesting and solid. Albeit I'm not trying to slam 20 towers a day or any of the crazy grinds that some people do, I just want to be able to complete content at a reasonable pace when I have time to play

Which admittedly is a bit higher time right now while I am temporarily left-arm-less for other games (broken bones suck)

[austere sedge]

atleast second chance not scaling with no. of summon on field but it being a set % (not too low) could be helpful

it wouldn't be a big change

nor it will become a good second chance

just little more reliable

[dusky ginkgo]

It would if it left summons behind - or do you mean that just giving it a "consume summons" but fixed chance?

[austere sedge]

if it leave summon behind i like it but i meant that second chance should be fixed at some % for example 80%

[unique shuttle]

80% sc is crazy

[austere sedge]

it's example

i don't mean it should be 80%

if second chance leave summon at 1hp i actually like it

i will have choice of attacking and healing

[dusky ginkgo]

If it left summons behind that becomes a fundamentally different ability and would be icky to balance (probably take something from elsewhere)

50% SC or whatever the standard is that consumed summons would probably be okay

But I'm not sure I think the class needs the buff and the stronger it becomes, the less likely I see getting other cool things added via gear or otherwise 🥹

[austere sedge]

why not just ask for both

gsh players waited for soo long

so we deserve it

XD

[dusky ginkgo]

On the flipside of the current 10% per summon - if there were ever gear that let us break the summon limits, we could get to 60% 😈

[dusky ginkgo]

https://tenor.com/view/mr-bean-mrbean-bean-mr-bean-holiday-mr-bean-holiday-movie-gif-3228235746377647455

Realmshifter players be like:

[austere sedge]

uh that's very unlikely because of gs endless

[austere sedge]

they got crit adorn (armour)

and cool stuff

in thronemaker

also coolest looking class icon

[dusky ginkgo]

If it were a weapon, armor, head, or off-hand that needed to be worn/held to let then I could see it as those would take away big farming buffs but yes I also think would cause issues. I'd be most interested to see it purely to allow BoF/Horde summon breaking limits so GSH could actually fire a full powered hydrus pact when in a party but it isn't the end of the world if it doesn't ever happen and I'm sure I'm missing balance issues somewhere

[dusky ginkgo]

And yet while the class [RS] isn't bad, it is also lacking some QoL/cleanup. This is one of the main reasons that as much as I enjoy Avidity, I struggle to stay playing RS for long whenever I try 🥹

Well that and GSH just being the most fun class in the game

[austere sedge]

hmm that should help hypa

[austere sedge]

give gsh avidity and dodge and now it's most fun class

prove me wrong

eh but it's too good

my wishes can't be fulfilled that easily

[dusky ginkgo]

In that case, let's give Deity Flasks as well and RS Collateral Damage, and Beo should have Elysian Guidelight and Paired Essence and let's just go hogwild!

[austere sedge]

i wanted it since rework started

[dusky ginkgo]

(Sounds like a bad April Fools joke)

[austere sedge]

I'm actually fine it would be fun (and balancing hell)

[dusky ginkgo]

Taking other class identity abilities is a bad precedence to set. I understand the fun side of it but big no no

[austere sedge]

yea ik

[dusky ginkgo]

Though maybe a funny event idea

Temporarily invert class identities inside of the event dungeon/tower/whatever

[austere sedge]

but something that give gsh 1 more turn could be cool (no don't say momentum amity or dof)

and multiple classes have similar things iirc

[dusky ginkgo]

You could say that about any class, lol

I don't know where I'd use that other than trying to quick summon (Riftlocks, Celestial Weapon, Sequencer)

[austere sedge]

yea

[dusky ginkgo]

Though maybe what we really need is a RS Dorado rework (or new celestial) that gets Valhallan gear instead of warrior, keeps avidity and has shadow clones 😈

[austere sedge]

i actually want warrior and rs to get summon

so all classes have summons and summoner core identity

and i can slander summoner

[stiff garnet]

I just want warrior, RS, and summoner to get more skill slots.

[austere sedge]

hmm

[ruby raven]

As a GSA main, I would love more skill slots ngl

I feel limited in skill slots daily XD

[unique shuttle]

I lost all hope I had for gsh horde honestly

[austere sedge]

i don't want gsh to become bl2 or despair spammer

noooo

[unique shuttle]

Well too bad because hypa sucks

[austere sedge]

burf hypa

bufr gsh

[fierce crag]

As promised, I have also tested some GSH dungeon builds. With a HyPa-based build, I could run Mel16 non-boss horde dungeons with AL31 (so less than allowed for shackled), but it was veeery slow. A bit faster than your 5-6 min for boss horde, but still around 4 min - which is just too much for me.

So unfortunately, I am back to my early conclusions from the beta:

• GSH works best as BL2 spammer, where you (apex-style) charge your line with HyPa against remaining 1-2 enemies.
• HyPa-based horde content would probably only work if the damage isn't split AoE (-> no split of m2 damage, but still the m1 reduction); this still means 1/3 damage compared to "classical" full AoE if used against 3 enemies because m1 is divided by 3 (instead of currently: damage divided by 9).

[unique shuttle]

I mostly agree with that

I'll just add that the damage isn't the main issue

[fierce crag]

I would almost say: HyPa is "fake AoE". It is a great spell and can hit several enemies, but damage-wise it is only good (or rather: great) against single targets. For 2 it's ok, for 3 it's only good for the buffs - which can however be very risky if you don't have an extremely tanky build (which reduces your damage even further). Thus, you end up with the spiral: you have to shoot several times, which means HyPa is not sustainable and you have to manually recast, which means even slower dungeons.

[rose path]

If u want extra frisky build - try windtamer shield

• hypa

[austere sedge]

I used cc and pact build on gsh(focusing hypa as main damage) at ang 4 to 5 and ik i can make anything work at this level but here is my input

1. Gsh is lacking cr (not too much but it is lacking)

2)Gsh need something to be able to hit 5 enemies with cc

3. need some buff when against 3 enemies.

4. second chance rework

[unique shuttle]

Don't have a good quality one

[austere sedge]

split damage against 3 enemies is really bad when you don't have many many buffs

[rose path]

I have an ornate

Even 2

If u want i can try trading to u

Ur on hoa right?

[unique shuttle]

Yes

[rose path]

Dont need this one

[unique shuttle]

It's alright, thanks. It won't be better than gsa anyway

[rose path]

I got a 200%

[rose path]

True

[final wagon]

there is a good use for gsh in horde. That is , to swap into it at floor 16 or 25 if you get arisen mammon, you bp2 it, then go back to gsa, at mel 40+. Works really well

[unique shuttle]

I bet it does, but it isn't gsh doing horde content per se

[final wagon]

it can't but not only because current hypa iteration is bad

even if they gave gsh more stuff to try to compete with pet-classes

it would still be worse than gsa...

optimized gsa is extremely strong in dungeons

[unique shuttle]

I completely agree with that

[final wagon]

i am not 100% sure as i can't test other high-al classes on best gear and best malus-path

but mel 35+ gsa is extremely good for dungeons, monuments, tower, especially since AFM morri gear arrived

it might be the case optimized classes can do something good at mel 40 or torment 40 as well; beo certainly can unshackled at "high enough al"

but gsa can do shackled lol

[bronze relic]

yeah me too, lost all hope ages ago when i tested everything back in december. 3 months after the rework I didnt see any improvements or any builds that would make it a good horde class from the community. It did exceptionally well for raids so I just gave up and accepted it, gsa does everything much better for me so I didnt bother much.

ive said it back then in the rework threads, gsh won't work unless it is given or made a lil bit broken to be at least comprable with classes that has pets. Gsh lacks access to pets and summons can't buff us reliably like pets do, gsh will need some tweaking to be at least comprable to those classes who has access to pets just be good in dgns.

t. all +++ got reduced to t. all +, back in beta even if i dont get t. mag +++ or t. mag ++ i would still be able just fine to deal a fk ton of damage with my bl2 just cus i have t. all +++ procced

[tardy trail]

Rip

[rose path]

It would be actually good if GS could make use of the "no follower bonus" stuff

[dusky ginkgo]

(I’m not sure it can’t). I know what the flavor text says but the stats gained from the regalia at least feel way higher than they should when I’ve tried

[rose path]

Wait ill demonstrate, look at magic stat

Without eastern mask

With eastern mask. That was beo

Here it clearly and visibly applies

Gsh. Without mask

With mask

[dusky ginkgo]

Yeah that’s different than when I checked but it was a while ago so could’ve been fixed since wasn’t intended

[rose path]

Probably yeah. However on the other hand there wuld be questions of whether this wont be OP. I mean these extra stats are basically ALs

But in today's reality there are no builds on all classes (excluding gsa obviously) which dont include usage of followers

[signal oasis]

Without bl2 horde isn't feasible

[rose path]

On gsa it works very well

[signal oasis]

My b didnt know this was a GSA thread my mistake

[rose path]

Gsh yeh ur right

[dusky ginkgo]

Without bl2 horde at high anguish isn’t feasible to do quickly on GSH

Despair and tank works just fine at Ang 6+ shackled

And if we get more chain Chance armor, Final Decree will have a shot at being decent

But the current rendition of Final Decree is interesting enough to warrant trying out - at minimum against AoE raids

I’m also having success in Despair and Torment focusing on 3 enemy fights with chain Chance stacked up

Despair 7 and Torment 9, both shackled

But just because something isn’t good at high anguish doesn’t mean it is bad

[fathom kettle]

High ang isn't fesible anyway

Any horde ang 25+ will be long long

And if it takes like 4min for dg, i consider is useless

[dusky ginkgo]

Hordes, sure, on GSH. I’m not there, I can’t refute that.

But we have plenty of evidence that GSA does just fine there and that GSH does just fine in high anguish raids

[bronze relic]

its best to just give up on pursuing the idea of making gsh good in horde as intended, it wouldve been like that a long time ago if that was the case. Its excelling pretty great in raids at high ang and at least the classline won't take u 100+ als just to be decent at doing bp. At least even for low al people they can do raids with gsh now, gsa does horde dungeons better anyway.

Im still waiting for those people who said "chain chance might be good give it a try" yet as shown above it is not. It's best to just keep things this way tbh, at least gsh is useful now unlike back then where it doesnt really excel at anything.

[bronze relic]

chain chance or any other builds won't make gsh viable at anything (towers, dungeons, despair) sure u can just bl2 to some extent in low anguish. But the fact that cr rate is low and can't sustain for your need to spam a flurry of hypa ,that alone makes gsh only good in raids.

when i say viable, being able to clear or do a content with a reasonable and acceptable time

at least in mid-high anguish, everything works in low ang anyways lol

[austere sedge]

yeah there is no hope for horde rn

[fathom kettle]

Only way it could be is by changing its ability to raid and we don't want that, we just gotta hope for other pact

[austere sedge]

the cost of hypa is too great for horde

that can only be fixed with cr adorn or cr gear (that isn't very bad)

considering we didn't get any cr adorn or gear till now

it's likely that we will not get it anytime soon

[fathom kettle]

Then again, that would make raiding very op

You'd need to nerf raiding and we don't want that

[austere sedge]

yeah

[final wagon]

tower is the only area where some classes could do without pet in some builds, at least if it's worth it to do so

[final wagon]

chain chance might in theory make gsh good at despair, after all with frag all you need is exactly +1 target to excel turn 1 hypa. But it needs to be a massive amount of chain somewhere, otherwise you lose too much damage and can't clear

[rose path]

Yeah thats true

[signal oasis]

Where is the nerf in any other class?

You dont need to nerf crud. RS can still 1-2 shot raids.

Im certain DIETY can aswell

[fathom kettle]

Rs and raids is good joke

[fathom kettle]

Also, deity

[signal oasis]

Iv seen amori get killed in 1 hit

Show me hypa do this

[dusky ginkgo]

Show us RS zeroing aMorri while firing 10m-20m hits

Or tanking Anguished Great Anguish or Beast King Lyncus while doing the same

Not every class/celestial needs to be able to do everything. In the same way that GSH struggles with hordes, all 3 Gilgamesh struggle to do any kind of Endless farming

And that’s okay

On a more positive side, has anyone else been trying out Final Decree’s latest iteration?

[fathom kettle]

I think he meant that deity and beo raiding are leagues above naw, which is kinda eh since they're the only 2 classes being able to abuse too op mechanics.

But yea, back to gsh.

[signal oasis]

Even with more CR procs, hypact is not 1 shotting endgame WRB or doing any thing broken relevant content. It only speeds up GS play to make it more in line with other classes. HOWEVER making GEAR with + CR isnt feasible. As CR is similar to avidity and avidity adorns ect function in a good environment.

So there should be cr adorns at most

Cr gear is a bit too much. Ruric gear makes use of this by adding a low chance to double cast summons.(unsure if this even works with CR) but if anything gear wise that is more feasible that +CR on gear

[fathom kettle]

Iirc it worked with cr.

I can agree with hypa being buffed(even for raids yes), considering what deity recently got and beo is.

[dusky ginkgo]

If you want one-shot “end game” raids, you play unanguished and line up a max buff Heretic Sigilstorm, or Deity Apex move. And while they’re busy lining all of that up, GSH has already HyPacted them down, and Beo’s follower has already killed them-

Can I see your GSH builds that you’re struggling to do so much with? GSH raiding is incredible, shy of AoE/Summoning raids and suggesting RS can do better than it isn’t correct, especially in anguish

[fathom kettle]

Both those classes got ability to be nearly immortal(with small chance to die to rng) while dealing alot, Alot in couple turns.

[dusky ginkgo]

Can you guys post videos of your issues with GSH (assuming you play it) and point out what is missing rather than just comparing to other classes? Other classes will point at Hydrus pact and ask where their storms of almost every temp buff in the game is at, where their full farm to floor 3000 in endless is, etc.

[unique shuttle]

That isn't true, deity apex is the fastest raiding build right now

[signal oasis]

Notice how gs still wasn't on that list?

[fathom kettle]

And nearly as immortal as prime tf build

[unique shuttle]

Better

[fathom kettle]

Idk, wasn't 100% stasis better?

Also, not conversation for here ig

[unique shuttle]

Oh, 100% one yes

[dusky ginkgo]

☝️ (not directed at you @unique shuttle )

[signal oasis]

But no in al seriousness; the passive "second chance" needs out, it works with hydrus beo because you will ALWAYS have your pet attached at the hip. And you dont also require your pet in order to attack. 😅🫠

[unique shuttle]

For raids? It doesn't miss anything. For everything else I believe I've voiced my opinion quite a few times

[signal oasis]

So as it stands the "second chance" passive is parasitic

[unique shuttle]

That was a quick edit lmao. Alas, I was faster 😹

[signal oasis]

So it either should not work attall and become a second chance that then removes like 5 stacks of hydrus. OR replaced

[dusky ginkgo]

I don’t agree with that but I can understand the frustration

[fathom kettle]

It doesn't miss anything for raids, but its simply worse than alot options currently. Its great for low als and is low investment but past that, even the classline got better options.

[unique shuttle]

Personally I think it's in perfect balanced place for raids. Reraise and stasis will be eventually nerfed, but hypa isn't better than them and is just balanced and pleasant to play, in raids

[dusky ginkgo]

If worse than broken/borderline broken makes something bad then I think there are a lot more classes that need more help than GSH 😅

[signal oasis]

Chance to kill all summons instead of dying. On a class who only gets stronger by killing summons, who's staples attack/buff pattern revolves around killing summons, and the other pacts that kill summons either heals other summons(i.e counterintuitive to the current gsh kit) or heals the player(noone uses due to lack of functionality as ruby adorns exist.)

What was added

CR

40% chance to autosummon.

[dusky ginkgo]

We’ve got plenty of videos and screenshots of showing GSH still cooking in high anguish raids at this point so the idea that it’s only a low AL raiding class isn’t correct

[signal oasis]

Now 40% is pretty damn good.

However the give to take ratio makes that specific passive parasitic

[dusky ginkgo]

How much do you play GSH? If you don’t mind my asking? I understand that for something like Endless, potentially cooking my entire board is a bit rough but as someone who plays the class for literally everything (not GSA or GS, just H), I find the second chance pretty darn useful. Sure, there are moments I wish it didn’t kill my summons, but better than killing me

[signal oasis]

As
1summons are ammo
Summons dying is what our passive needs to charge, & also synergy was added with skills no GSH is using outside of endless, or niche case.

[signal oasis]

Its my only class and I use it for everything

[manic prism]

As a brainless beo that leaned on GS to do endless during riftall: it was amazing to lazily hit stun dart as GSH while waiting for Berserks to fall off, only to learn that getting rando conked by a berserk in the early 300s destroys your whole board of mammoths.

[signal oasis]

Hypa is literally a buff spell thats really REALLY good at clearing ads. Otherwise its OK at raids after 5ish turns of buffing and getting to fully hydrus

Otherwise for hoarde bl2 and or swansong

No other variation unless you waste turns (and time) summoning more to cast more hypact.

[dusky ginkgo]

Cool, can you add some screenshots of your gear, skills, and maybe some videos showing your struggles? 😁

[signal oasis]

No struggles im adding suggestions to what can make the class more consistent.

Im just tired of ppl who main and dont even staple GS coming in here saying any adjustments would be broken.

Iv been saying charon & the cure sac should work with hydrus since i found out they didnt.

Now im just looking for more synergy

And the 2ed chance passive IS NOT THAT

Its parasitic at best and unusable at worse.

[dusky ginkgo]

I’m not sure I understand that sentence - but I’ve seen next to zero non-summoners in this thread. I’ve seen one person who’s effectively quit, one person who wants the class to be the meta for everything, yourself, and a few others

[signal oasis]

Meta isnt nessicary

Synergistic is a must

Idc if hydrus we remains bad in horde. But theres 0 reason our second chance passive is dependant on whats also dependant on for combat.

Unless EVERY other event they add a BL2 side grade

[dusky ginkgo]

And as someone who doesn’t want to break the class that already feels it’s tip-toeing, I’m pretty hesitant to think any buffs are needed

[dusky ginkgo]

So your primary issue is that you dislike the second chance, yes?

[signal oasis]

Making the 2ed chance passive either:
1 just give us second chance and take away the parasitism.
2 remove it outright and put almost anything els synergistic there.

[dusky ginkgo]

You did see the patch where they do now, yeah?

[signal oasis]

Yes thats great but it does nothing for mains. As iv stated above, its niche case at best but it finnaly working is awesome!

That was like the equivalent of making apex guage visibly not fill. Like it would be annoying but being fixed would feel odd why it wasn't as intended in the first place? You know?

Also as I said im far from wanting meta, however I dont mind slightly overturned if the alternative is a clunky class feel.

[dusky ginkgo]

So… in PvP, I like it. Only chance I’ve got to survive most of the time

Dungeons? I like it, often keeps me alive to fire Despair or BL2

Towers? I like it, see above

Raids? I like it, usually lets me finish them off

It functions pretty much the same way as any other second chance with a bit of a Hydrus flair which seems to be consuming something

So I don’t think it should go. 😅

I recognize that consumable and destructible ammo is a tricky balance but that’s where a backup plan or second ability comes in handy

[signal oasis]

From release till last year Hydrus was borderline unusable. It was a niche class, all Im and have been asking for was to make it fully synergistic with no weird feeling gaps(like its current 2d chance passive.)

Dont get me wrong, theres still:
• Incorrect damage splits
• Invisible summons
• lack of use for summons themselves/very bare bones passive page.

[signal oasis]

Iv had passive proc twice.

Otherwise since release

I just die

At this point thats 3months of a nonfunctional passive.

The reason other classes get brought up.

[dusky ginkgo]

Damage split is correct
Invisible summons is annoying, agreed
There are actually a lot of interesting summons depending on what you want to do

I’ve had the second chance proc a ton of times including multiple times in the same PvP match so… videos! 😂

[signal oasis]

^

This is the exact EXACT same phrasing used back when OG diety b4 buffs was a thing.

There should never be a walk on eggshells feeling to a class

Sure some people like you will enjoy it

But its not a liked sentiment.

Even if it was as simple as kill 1 summon

But no its wipe all summons keep you at 1 hp and then what?

[signal oasis]

Also those matches im assuming you won aswell?

Because if you didnt, why? Was it lack of ammo?

Its parasitically built. I dont need meta or broken i need synergistic and functionality.

[dusky ginkgo]

There’s a big difference between “deity is good if you build correctly” and “I recognize that consumable and destructible ammo is a tricky balance but that’s where a backup plan or second ability comes in handy”

GSH is a fairly new class in terms of what it can and can’t do with HyPa and the like. It does a darn good job at raids while being quite functional in much of content- and the cost you pay for that is needing to build around the idea of destructible ammunition/weaponizing summons

If that isn’t a playstyle you enjoy, it sounds more like maybe GSH isn’t for you 🥹 than that the class is bad, or needing buffs.

I recognize that losing ammo to stay alive doesn’t allow firing back for 2m damage but maybe that’s the point similar to how killing off a BeoH follower shuts down their infinite blocking ward spamming Jord SS3 build

[signal oasis]

This had nothing to do with the passive that dosent belong on the class

[fathom kettle]

You don't even need vids for pvp, unless you got some hidden build i don't know of. If you somehow out fs a player as gsh, you use hypa(you deal massive dmg) then there's huge chance opponent gets 2nd chance, dodges, parapet or pet block(that's what pvp is filled with). If you don't out fs, even if 2nd chance procs, what are you gonna do?

[signal oasis]

That passive doesn't belong

I understand youre acclimated to accepting that it is what it is.

I am not

[fathom kettle]

Yea, i can agree with rest things but the passive definitly isn't fitting for any class.

[signal oasis]

Id literally take mystic feather over a second chance passive that ruins my combat loop.

[fathom kettle]

Should deity have 2nd chance happening only if they got apex filled?

[signal oasis]

^

Id be ok with second chance ONLY if I have full hydrus. Because then it would leave my ammo tf alone

[final wagon]

2nd chance for gsh is good in raids

and given raids are the only playable content for gsh except perhaps despair...

[signal oasis]

Its not second chance its second chance IF

[fathom kettle]

Its decent, not good imo. Again its comparing to diffrent classes, i feel we got worst 2nd chance possible.

[dusky ginkgo]

“Somehow out FS a player”

Does Foresight matter outside of BoF? Is this an HoA vs Orna thing?

Also… that isn’t hard to out FS a player on GSH

Okay, so if they can parapet and dodge, why can’t you add that in too?

[final wagon]

it's better than beoh 2nd chance for raids, but beoh doesn't want to raid when beoa exists, that's another issue though

gsh is already good for raids, don't change it and just accept it's a raiding class

[dusky ginkgo]

Yeah, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. At the least, I can understand your point of view

[final wagon]

other than raiding, you can swap into it at floor 16 or 25 to kill a mammons while you do dungeons as gsa

works for me at mel 43

[dusky ginkgo]

Speaking of raiding- have you tried out the Final Decree against anything AoE yet? Or still not quite there - and if not, what do you think it’s missing to be a GSH-AoE-raid type weapon?

[final wagon]

why would i

decrease my damage by like 3x or more

[signal oasis]

I have yet to get a decre

Is it good

[final wagon]

if the raid spams aoe a lot, gsh can't play, too slow

[signal oasis]

I just play heavier summons tbh

[final wagon]

you are better off speccing into chronomancer with celestial if they aoe

[signal oasis]

Also from what iv seen

Majority of raids are phys so ghost is staple

[final wagon]

i don't even know what ghost does

[signal oasis]

Immuned physical & dark

[final wagon]

why would i care

[signal oasis]

Like it takes even mori ult to the face.

[final wagon]

do they summon more than summon dead? is it a 1 turn summon?

[signal oasis]

Its 1 turn and it summons 2-3 but iv been using scarb, kit, & ghost.

[final wagon]

that dliutes the chances for scarab autosummon

dunno what kit is

[signal oasis]

Cleanse

[final wagon]

what is it

[signal oasis]

Also tanker than dead & ghost.

[final wagon]

you need 2 spells exactly for summon

to maximize chance of 4 free

[signal oasis]

Nah.

[final wagon]

can't use a single summon

when you raid hundreds of agony 43 you tell me

gaining 3 sec / raid is massive

[signal oasis]

Im still low anguish. So I wouldn't know metas in 43

[final wagon]

it's the same because more summon fuels = faster kill

[signal oasis]

So you dont buff attall?

[final wagon]

woo-mag++ from potion, god's of aaru

but only because with my items i can actually tank after tbuffs

otherwise i would skip woo as i skip with gs bp

if i die i open new raid

and then go back

after full round against all the summoned

[dusky ginkgo]

Its biggest draw is 1-Turn Summons 3-5 Khepirs and 13 Adorn slots

Its biggest drawback is 60% Pact Damage

[signal oasis]

60% pact damage is like what? 164-168 pact damage?

[final wagon]

no it's 60%

[signal oasis]

All pact buffs included

[final wagon]

it's a single item giving 60, so it's 60

[signal oasis]

Because class helm & 2 amity

[final wagon]

x1.6

what amity

this is how i raid gsh

[signal oasis]

60 for decre 60 for ^ 40 for helm & two 4% pact amity

[final wagon]

unless those are 50% pos + 15% dfhp + 4% amity why are you using 4% pact amities

[signal oasis]

Because I dont have 5%

[final wagon]

pos ->>>>>> everything

[signal oasis]

Does it go to 5%?

[final wagon]

no why do you care about 4%

instead of pd

pos

in a class that generates infinite temp buffs lol

[signal oasis]

Because it generates infinite temp buffs

Damage> temp.

[dusky ginkgo]

We are a month out from 5% Pact 15% Full HP amities in orna and I missed them 😭

But 50% PosDur 5% Miss 5% Max HP is my go to for raids

[final wagon]

so you want them to stay so they stack

lol 1 turn more of tmag+++ is x2 damage

and pos 50 is more than 1 turn prolonging on avg

[signal oasis]

So 5% pact damage and 50% pos 5% miss would be better

[final wagon]

miss shouldn't matter

but 15% dfhp can matter so 50 + 15 would be better

[unique shuttle]

You get more dps from using temps 😹

[signal oasis]

So you get more total damage from temps than having ALL buffs?

Or are you talking about dpt?

Because I understand opting for 1 turn buffs then just using the built in buffs since its also damage. Shaves turns off so its a high dpt

[unique shuttle]

Temp buffs = more damage

[signal oasis]

So perm buffs bad temp buffs good?

[final wagon]

buffs fade in agony

so they aren't actually perma perma

[unique shuttle]

Perm buffs = turns wasted buffing

In my raids I only use two perma buffs to minimise time spent on a raid

[cedar atlas]

Thats not ok i want orns 😭

[signal oasis]

Oh! Thats too rich for my blood. Ill see myself out of yalls convos. But know that im speaking for casual & nonmeta. I apologize if our asks are broken in the late game/meta however yall do not account for the common summoner main so please also keep that in mind when youre saying things like. Oh making the class synergistic is too strong. When its not, youre just using the bare bones at max/peak efficiency which isnt the status quo for summoner mains.

If i were t12 100+ AL or even AL70 I cannot expect everyone at AL 0-20 to play or even want at my bracket as im the outlier.

GS essentially just came out, majority of GS AL 100+ arnt GS exclusive, and literally HOC'd into that mad late game. Why are you speaking on topics affecting the regular player base dramatically that you wont even use or dosent even apply to you 90% of the time. 🙃🫠

That being said second chance as it is needs a change because in the casual/regular experience it simply is parasitic in nature.

[signal oasis]

When is is the first all 4 paths= perma fade?

Because that feels verry odd to choose perma fade when its all deterministic if you dont want buffs to fade dont choose it

[dusky ginkgo]

Let’s not try and disqualify the opinions of others based on high vs low ALs. The same logic can be reversed to “Bob plays more, therefore Bob knows more.”

The only think that the second chance doesn’t synergize with is firing a Hydrus Pact or, I suppose, losing your summons in Endless

But neither does Gilga’s second chance synergize with anything to do with Spiked Shield

Or Heretic’s correspond to any specific ability

Or BeoH’s allow their follower to do anything else

Or RS no second chances here

Deity’s technically means they are more likely to Apex but again not a specific ability

Are these all non-synergistic as well?

BeoH’s is arguably much worse

To your point, however, yes, GSH’s second chance could be stronger; I just don’t think it needs to

[austere sedge]

yup gsh has most synergize and completed kit

it shouldn't get more development

it will be too overpowered

[dusky ginkgo]

Rereading where Kaine had it summarized, I do see the following as the remaining primary concerns amongst players

Requests/Concerns/Issues:
| Pact Adorns/Increase Pact Damage offered by Amities
| Take a second look at GSH's second chance
--> Giving a chance to proc t.Buffs on summons dying
--> Having a chance to leave 1 summon behind
--> Make a true Second Chance
--> Swap for Mystic Feather-ish

For More Recent Additions:
| Give Final Decree a small amount of summon stats so it better scales into Anguish
| More Chain Chance/tools to work with

@unique shuttle @final wagon @austere sedge @signal oasis @fathom kettle am I missing anything here?

[austere sedge]

single class shouldn't be good at horde and raid

[austere sedge]

hmm lemme check

yup

cr related issues

horde related concerns

that's all i can think of rn

[signal oasis]

This is exactly it

Id take almost anything over our current "second chance" mayaswell not have it and have a mystic feather side or even downgrade.

[austere sedge]

whole mystic feather drama above(very very above) is just me wanting dodge that increase as summon decrease

so it is actually helpful when we have less than 2 summon

[rose path]

It would also help if all the t.def t.res buffs would be removed from the t.buff list

[austere sedge]

i actually agree but only if we get some good offensive t. buff

more

moar

[rose path]

No

[signal oasis]

Eh hypact is fine as is

[austere sedge]

😔

[signal oasis]

Minus the damage splits issue

And summons being invisible

😅🫠

[austere sedge]

it's intentional 😔

[rose path]

Yeah but sometimes fishing for the right t.buffs is stupid like you spam hypa and you get the juicy t.buff you wanted all your life : t.def+++

[signal oasis]

Is it?

[austere sedge]

yup

[signal oasis]

Then can we also intentionalize it for ALL class based multi target moves aswell?

[austere sedge]

i didn't understand?

[rose path]

Yeah that would be fair lol

[signal oasis]

Cs, AV2, whatever eventualis that hits everything.

[rose path]

But everyone would be angry

But tbh - rly, hypa as is now its good

[austere sedge]

iirc odie said that hypa has very good defense shredding capabilities so damage split happens (so it's balanced)

[austere sedge]

exclude horde

it's not reliable for horde

when it's for horde too

[rose path]

Are you 250 yet btw?

[austere sedge]

nope and i will never

get to 250

[rose path]

Why?

Lol

[austere sedge]

i might quit if i get to 250

[dusky ginkgo]

I'd fight that tooth and nail. I like my battlemage build 🥹

[rose path]

Yeeeag yeah i know

No snotra tank stuff

[dusky ginkgo]

I only use Snotra if I'm going to go for max speed

Which isn't often

[austere sedge]

@dusky ginkgo i hope you noted all concerns 👀

[dusky ginkgo]

Yeah, trying to also reread all the recent OL discussions and pass along the feedback

[austere sedge]

gud

[signal oasis]

Ok so was there ever a like middle ground found for pact damage amity buff. Because in all honesty while yes pact damage is a class inherent ability 5% doesn't feel worthy of a amity buff. But 40%(like crit damage) seems like pushing the envelope a bit, so 15%- 20% like at max 25% seems reasonable if there was an amity pact damage buff.

Hell 10% would also be acceptable since with spec thats 20% pact damage

Because 2 of them

[dusky ginkgo]

5% is a decent buff because of how Pact Damage is calculated so I think if that’s a change it’s more likely 10%-15% at the top if it gets changed but of course I’m not NF so I dunno what will or won’t happen

But yeah I agree 5% especially by itself isn’t the best for an amity

[signal oasis]

Actually

Actually

Turn 5% pact damage into

8% pact damage  4% chain damage chance```

So the version thats currently bis 5% is  now 
5% & 3% chain damage chance.  And new bis is 8% and 4% chain

^

[dusky ginkgo]

Also anything specific for Final Decree? - I know the intent isn't to make it BiS - but currently we've got a:

-60% Pact Damage
-15% Chain Chance
-13 Adorn Slots

Myself, I think it's a decent weapon for very specific uses but I saw Baldrice suggest either a chance at summons arriving with Reraise and/or additional summon stats so it scales into anguish if the intent is to have a weapon that allows your summons to tank AoE at the cost of a chunk of pact damage

I've also seen giving it a chance to proc Mag 2 or Berserk

[dusky ginkgo]

That is actually pretty cool. And makes it something other classes might seek out too

[signal oasis]

Sadly I dont have a decree yet and even when I get it ill need to level it and anguish it.

[dusky ginkgo]

The magic is pretty low so even leveling a normal tier one while you wait will give you a bit of a feel for how it works - that's what I did at least

[signal oasis]

Wait its a 2h with low power?

Because what the helly thats not right :t

[austere sedge]

more mag is only thing i can think of rn

[signal oasis]

That only makes sense with a lute or the like hybrid weapons

[dusky ginkgo]

A lot of 2H weapons have low power 🥹 - thankfully Pact Damage is an m1 boost so magic isn't that important

Though I've also seen a few suggestions for giving it a chance to proc Mag 2 or Berserk on its own

[austere sedge]

reraise

let it proc reraise

4%

per summon sacrificed

am i cooking

[dusky ginkgo]

The goal is to make your summons survive, not you xD

[austere sedge]

eh gsh need to survive

summon are meat shield

actually no

[signal oasis]

Idk it feels weird that we have nothing to utilize our hydrus stacks.

[austere sedge]

bone shield

[austere sedge]

second chance scaling with stacks and losing it when second chance proc

[dusky ginkgo]

Unless we're going to allow DAra to cannabilize their Apex Stacks or other classes to cannibilize their passives, I don't want a way to cannibalize our stacks

100% Stats is 100% stats

That would also take quite a bit of work imho - though maybe if it were some new pact down the road

[signal oasis]

Like just do not give us cr gear and make it an ability or stance

That burns 5 stacks and adds 10% cr.

Once

[austere sedge]

cool

[signal oasis]

Charon and the healing pacts are kind of odd aswell. They have no place in any meta casual nor high. Outside of endless,

When is the last time you've used it?

[austere sedge]

never

[dusky ginkgo]

I use them primarily in Endless (of course) and also on Bloodpact raiding because currently my GSH does more than my GS for Bloodpact while shackled at Agony 13

[austere sedge]

too costly for not very significant results

only life pact is used in endless generally

[signal oasis]

So whats the difference between
sacrifice summons and heal player based on total hp
And
Sacrifice summons dealing damage healing a % of damage proportional to damage dealt"

While charon 1 & 2, sacrifices 1 or (all but 1) respectively, instead

C2  sacrifices all summons healing the strongest, restoring its ward, distributes temp buffs proportional to summons sacrificed, and permanent buff(s) amung any they had. 

[Im using the word buffs but mean buffs/debuffs as per normal im just not typing that for EACH time I say buffs.]

Whereas, life pact.
Can also restore their ward based on health lost and on use act as a "defend" ability/skill for that turn.

[signal oasis]

Essentially hypact only it heals you, hits 1-2 target(s) and does not give random stats, can be used By all GS line. But most likely used on Base and GSH.

Because as it stands, its going to be under utilized. Hell CHARON 2 should honestly kill all but the 2 strongest summons.

That would give it more viability if sidegrade happens to it, for GSA to have new tech.

^ this is what I mean by synergy.

Has the same exact purpose

Does mororless the same thing

But not a wasted slot trivialized to endless or not on the build.

[austere sedge]

i rather get a pact that give some utility buff and doesn't cost my summon life

because everything cost summon life

[final wagon]

AL is just about how high in agony you can go, but you still want celestial + nekro + arisen rift helm + dynasty piece , sequencer, 2 lugus, and that's too much better than anything else. If you get super high quality items + al you get higher in agony, otherwise you stay lower, but the build, approach and gameplay is literally identical for all aspects. And the amity is pos. And final decree doesn't help at all except perhaps before you have a celestial weapon. And the second chance helps in raiding al 0 or al 200

[unique shuttle]

Buffs are rolled for separately, removing t.def and t.res wouldn't increase chance of offensive buffs unless Odie codes specifically that

[rose path]

What..... what if.... we.... make Hypa crit?

But now no jokes:
How about hypa 1 will target max 4 targets and has a base built in 15% chance of chain damage? So theoretically if chain damage procs it will hit 5 targets.
And hypa II stays same ofc

[bronze relic]

imagine the malus

[bronze relic]

is what i would say 3 months ago

imagine the power lol

but nah, i dont think itll happen cus if odie community really wants it to be better at horde it wouldve been like that ages ago. Imagine if u got some amities, items that boost pacts(not a 5% cap), cr rate and other stuff that would synergize a lot better on gsh

but nah

i mean odie couldve just created another pact skill that does aoe, and just make hydrus pact the big boy hitter that way aoe pacts could be made somewhat balanced without affecting the raid aspect

[rose path]

Depends dude

Because hypa is t9 skill and has lower power

Yeah and besides gsa will still be better at horde