GSH Rework - H2 Balance & Mechanics

[austere sedge]

not 30

ig i was able to explain myself 🫣

[oak moss]

yeah but im talking about horde dungeons man

not horde raids

[austere sedge]

there technically aren't horde raids

[oak moss]

ok then what are you saying

noone is hitting cap in dungeons anyway

[austere sedge]

unless you count low hp fodders

[austere sedge]

increasing damage potential should help?

maybe not

I'm not sure and need input

[oak moss]

but what you're saying isnt increasing damage potential, because in the beta hypa did the same damage, just in 3 hits

which only increased damage potential in raids

that arent a problem

horde dmg is low is what im saying

[austere sedge]

probably because of bug

ig we'll have to wait more

[oak moss]

yeah the split damage needs to get fixed

[oak moss]

i guess man

[austere sedge]

until odie remembers that poor ppl like us

need buffs

[oak moss]

its not even buffs, its fixing bugs lmao odie please 🙏

[austere sedge]

my nightmare is that it will become part of hypa and wouldn't get fixed and we'll be notified that it was meant to be like this

[austere sedge]

you are alone on this one i need buff

[twin crystal]

Well.. looks like HyPa is unintentionally great for pvp offense. Too good in fact

[fathom kettle]

Its good but i don't agree with too good.

How can it be too good when you got 1 chance to hit, then your defensless without 2nd chance, summon prot or anything.

[dusky ginkgo]

If it couldn’t be blocked or dodged or miss, didn’t need ammo, could be fired off multiple times in a row, and/or could be used on defense by AI, maybe

But nah, I really don’t think it is too good. Glass cannons need ways to work around walls of 1m ward and they can die to anything and everything as a cost of maybe dealing lethal damage

[twin crystal]

because purely of its dmg? Something like 300k on turn 1

thats enough to kill even high AL players with 1 hit

[dusky ginkgo]

I mean I’m getting hit for 300k or more from SS3, Realm Strikes, Verse IV, (and 600k from a Bloodray) so what is the issue? - and I don’t have a second Chance option after firing, any ward or hp to hide behind or a follower than can DB thereafter

I’ll add on that unlike some of those other options, a Hydrus Pact isn’t going to hit 300k on turn 1 at AL0

And even if it did, that 300k won’t kill almost any of the locals around me in one hit

[livid matrix]

You have some unusual locals in the overall grand scheme of the world btw

[twin crystal]

I dont know where you live, but that is certainly not my experience in my area

After testing, I noticed a few things abt HyPa in pvp.

Against a single target, this spell deal insane amount of dmg (Tested and got 160k at AL0, 320k with double cast if you want) and seems to have extremely high m1 value

Against multi targets (i.e. fellow summoner), the split dmg seems to be bugged and deal 30-40k to 2 target

[fathom kettle]

Yup, aoe dmg is bit bugged rn, dealing 1/3 of what it should to every enemy.

Also, i agree with erd, hypa deals massive amount of dmg in pure mag/pact build but then your dex isn't that high so you can miss often, you got no ward, no ammo for 2nd hit unless you get lucky with auto summon, no 2nd chance. Its definition of pure glass Cannon that isn't too hard to block.

[austere sedge]

as i play gsh i only come to hate current second chance

imagine having a passive that usually work when you have all summon on field

not when you actually need survivability

and even if it proc with 2 summon you have no counterplay

[oak moss]

i mean second chance has clutched up on a couple of raids for me, i prefer having it than not

ofc something stronger will be better but yeah

i feel like odie needs to touch up GSH to make it better for dungeons and maybe nerf it for raids a bit, unless im out of touch with other classes, raiding with gsh is really really op imo

[austere sedge]

i wasn't complaining about raids

[oak moss]

yeah im just ranting

[austere sedge]

but in horde many enemy hit you

[austere sedge]

same XD

[oak moss]

feelings about gsh is raids are stronger than needed, and dungeons are weaker

a bit of a power shift to bring more in touch will be nice imo

[austere sedge]

Good but not very overpowered because of aoe raids

[oak moss]

yeah but thats only because hypa is bugged rn

[austere sedge]

try winning against pumpkinless or cade

[oak moss]

ah you mean aoe dmg

[austere sedge]

same

[oak moss]

yeah they fuck you up

yeah definetly not an S tier raider but still you can rng your way through dealing insane dmg with minimal setup on 90% of raids

[austere sedge]

but i don't hate the fact that aoe counter gsh but atleast give it better passive

instead of current second chance

it's been a month and hypa bugs still aren't fixed

i want a cool original (lie) passive for gsh

[oak moss]

yeah, hoping odie gives us a bit of an update on what he thinks about hydrus

[austere sedge]

yeah

[oak moss]

and hopefully adresses some of our complaints

[austere sedge]

personally i don't like hydrus give use covirus instead

gs covirus would be very cool trust me

[austere sedge]

yeah

[fathom kettle]

🤮

First balance current classes, then add new ones.

[oak moss]

whats your al btw, because i recently HOC'd to gilga to try it out while waiting for gsh to cook since i have a couple of hocs, and i played a bit with AL0 hydrus and i can basically do the same on raids, hitting around 1.1mil dps on anguish level 6 and absolutely speedrunning simillar to my deity apex build, but dungeons suck so bad

[austere sedge]

gsc would be far more better than gsh will ever be

[oak moss]

why do you even need another class when we are currently reworking one lmao

[fathom kettle]

It is, i'd consider it top tier for solo raiding, comperable to stasis prom or even better.

[austere sedge]

me? Just 11 i don't farm cuz that's boring

[fathom kettle]

That's for solo, for duos sadly no help for hypa, just less chances of dying

[austere sedge]

just my personal opinion XD

[fathom kettle]

Im al 67, but im doing every content shackled rn

So bascially al 0-10 smth like that

Pure summoner too

[oak moss]

its really fast and really high damage, but youre basically praying to jesus every turn if youre doing sequencer, and if you're running fomoria shield and tankier it can 0 out amorri in my experience

[austere sedge]

i do shackled too 👀

[oak moss]

dungeons suck sooo much though man and that was the whole point

[fathom kettle]

Im doing full glass canon tbf, for amorri im using anubis and fkelpie to waste couple of her turns and pray lol.

[austere sedge]

maybe when devs implement 3rd celestial (not happening) i will request for gsc

[oak moss]

pls no man the game is hard to balance with 2 celestials per class

[austere sedge]

just make every class overpowered

simple

[oak moss]

also gsc sounds literally like a rename of hydrus

[fathom kettle]

So what's the point of playing?

[austere sedge]

heh you caught me

[oak moss]

thats powercreep and its the easiest way to make games boring

[austere sedge]

enjoy

[fathom kettle]

What are you enjoying?

[austere sedge]

oo

[fathom kettle]

Beating everything without single challange?

[austere sedge]

chaos

[oak moss]

9/10 ragebait

[austere sedge]

it doesn't need to be that overpowered

[fathom kettle]

3rd cele class would break game(litteraly)

[austere sedge]

also deity players exist

[fathom kettle]

So?

[austere sedge]

so being overpowered isn't a issue ig

[fathom kettle]

Good jokes, deity and op doesn't rly fit together anymore

[oak moss]

hydrus raiding lowkey better than apex raiding currently

[austere sedge]

i mean it's already a balancing hell it can't get worse right?

[fathom kettle]

Its still good from what i heard, its judt not op.

[fathom kettle]

Fr, im saying that hypa raiding is meta for solo rn

[austere sedge]

ok ok not joking anymore (stares at my imaginary gsc)

[fathom kettle]

We can argue but there's so many diffrent builds, dmg is amazing and you don't rly need als.

[austere sedge]

yeah gsh in raids isn't bad

[oak moss]

its really good in fact

[austere sedge]

tho nobody will say it's good in horde right??

right?

[oak moss]

meanwhile dungeons you basically just have to outstat and spam bl2, otherwise you're cooked

[austere sedge]

✋🍿🤚

[fathom kettle]

Still sad they made my boi bascially worse heretic in horde content

[austere sedge]

the place where it was meant to shine

[oak moss]

i mean its always going to be either worse "insert class" or better "insert class" tbh

[fathom kettle]

It could've been alot better tho, atleast make 2 summon hypa attack 3, despair would been possible.

Dgs would be bit better

Torment eh, not rly point since gsa dominates

[austere sedge]

hypa 3 will come as off hand skill trust

[void scaffold]

So the recent vibe here is that GSH still should be shine at horde dungeons and raids should be tuned down?

This could be accomplished by e.g. a different HyPa calc decreasing the dmg against one target and increasing it against every individual target plus hitting more targets.

Maybe moving away from split to static AoE.

[tardy trail]

Ngl, it should be fine the moment they fix the damage calc being bugged rn

[fierce crag]

I still hope that HyPa damage will be changed to the "usual" split AoE damage. If the current implementation is intended because otherwise it would be too strong, I would prefer to reduce the number of ward turns back to 1 (currently 2 or 3 after AoE HyPa), and instead be able to use HyPa in horde content for killing 2 or 3 enemies. That way, HyPa should be a bit more consistent - currently, I don't think that it makes much sense to use the AoE component of HyPa.

[fathom kettle]

I just hope they won't tune it down for raids while making it still mid for horde 🙏

Im happy with my gsa horde clearing, just make 2 summon hypa attack 3 enemies so i can do despair and im happy

[ruby raven]

Agreed 100%

[sinful light]

Mmm idk, doesn't GSH BP suck against raids cause their summons don't have ascensions?

[void scaffold]

Yes, that's the whole deal.
The goal of the rework was to create a fast horde class since this is was the summoner classline was lacking.

Now we got a raiding an (remaining)PvP/AI attack machine.

||and GSA dominating Ang horde content||

[fathom kettle]

I say summoner classline isn't rly lacking in terms if horde content with gsa, but lack of gear. Gimme more gear with passives like disperse and im happy. Raiding was painfull tho, bp isn't made for solo/low al.

[void scaffold]

It was the goal of the rework however we got a GSH pretty capable of fast paced raiding low to high AL until its overcome by BPs scaling at i dunno AL 150 to 200ish?

The question is now (after everything is fixed and polished) how does the majority feel about this?
Do they like it as is or do they insist on their original goal?

[tardy trail]

Ngl, I'm still waiting for the damage split calc to be fixed

[rapid panther]

me too, dmg calc and chain dmg fix are a priority

[tardy trail]

Like, I believe none of this has been fixed yet

[rapid panther]

ward turn yes

now is 1 turn for enemy hit

[tardy trail]

True, forgot since it didn't appear in the patch notes

[rapid panther]

dw it got me too

[tardy trail]

Yeah, worst part is that I've been seeing it a lot lately while clearing horde dungeons

I just hope they fix the other things, and then we'll see from there

[rapid panther]

if chain dmg get fixed a build with storming tempest migth be the best choice

[tardy trail]

If it's still lacking, or what

[tardy trail]

Yeah, that could be interesting

[rapid panther]

full dullha, spine adorn and maybe the spear for more spine adorn and to use the 2h bonus

[dusky ginkgo]

Is that GS Bloodpact outscaling GSH Bloodpact or GSH Bloodpact out scaling damage GSH Hydrus Pact?

[dusky ginkgo]

Per the concerns about hordes, I’d also like to see what a fix of the damage calculation brings to the class

An Arisen Qatvanaga full of Orichalcum Mortars is a very safe way to do it though BL2 with damage summons does just fine for me when I’m in a hurry. But Hydrus Pact having more effective damage splitting and/or allowing chain hits would be really nice

I don’t feel like GSH needs any buffs or that would put it over the top. Fixes/smooths over to what is there seems fine I.E fixing Hydrus Pact splitting damage

And per the second chance concerns “we don’t get anything from it”- except for stats just like a Manarush or Deity’s second chance and those aren’t nothing. I’d also be sad to see that go

If I were to make a list of things I’d want to see it would be something like:

-Fix Hydrus Pact Split Damage/allow chain damage

-Fix Phantom Summons (though this has been noticeably a bit better for me recently)

-Make the other pacts interact somehow (I.E Charon, Achyls and Sacrificial Pact would have a chance to give you whatever buffs a summon had when that summon is sac’d)

-Add more Pact damage weapons/armor so the class isn’t always glued to a Celestial weapon

I’d add in- I know GSH is a Summoner line class that inclines toward summon-based play, but it’s also a Hydrus class that inclines toward power to the player and the class feels heavily tailored to that playstyle. Try and play it like a mage (player power) first and a summoner second and everything minus some bugs is quite powerful.

Hydrus Pact and a storm of temp buffs is a ridiculously powerful ability and I’d be very careful of making it too good.

I know my highest Anguish is only 13 and that Anguish 30+ is all a few people care about but I haven’t found any content that GSH is incapable of tackling minus maybe AoE/summon raids but swapping over to running Bloodpact on it does just fine against those in my experience (and a fix to Hydrus Pact split damage would help a lot)

[tardy trail]

Agree with all those, but on the last point, it’ll still be glued to the cele weapon, doesn’t matter what you add

The pact cele adorns are just too good

[tardy trail]

And on this prob base GS, with the ascended summons

[dusky ginkgo]

Yeah, they appear to be m1 Boosts 😬 at least in my tests so far

[dusky ginkgo]

Gotcha. I guess I’ll check again come AL150 - at AL86, despite tiny summons, my GSH Bloodpact damage is more than 2x my GS with the same summons out and buffs up

[tardy trail]

#1449114805368786956 message

[austere sedge]

i am waiting for better survivability passive

there are many good ideas in thread

After split damage bug fix and we get better passive gsh should get significantly better

in horde

[dusky ginkgo]

The class doesn’t need survivability if you build to tank up. And hitting the damage cap is plenty of damage while zeroing everything

Adding more survivability on top of that would break the class

[austere sedge]

I'm talking about better passive than second chance

glass cannon classes usually have survivability passive

like dodge, second chance etc

gsh second chance is bad because
1 It usually work when there are more summons on field.
2 When it work it remove all summons and you just get little health.
Second chance might feel good in raids but not in horde where your squishy summons dissappear.

[dusky ginkgo]

And I’m saying that giving it a “better” survival passive would be bordering on if not outright breaking the class

I understand wanting more power and I understand wanting something different but GSH’s passive is well aligned with the class and BeoH’s survival passive

And unlike BeoH’s passive, we can get summons back and it gives us a stat boost not just a little health

GSH has more of the ebb and flow of Orna classic classes and that is something I’d love to see return to the game more

But in that, I recognize the ebb isn’t something everyone enjoys and doesn’t always feel good, but making the class always have the flow would be too strong.

[austere sedge]

yeah summon them just for them 2 die next turn

are you are cooked if you have status

survivability passive are for when you are in risky position not when you have 5 summons on field

and better passive isn't breaking game duh

also passive like dodge isn't making it too strong

nobody is asking for a passive that can guarantee your survival

just better than current because many things needs summons on field (hypa, meat shield and current passive)

[austere sedge]

what the point of stat boost if you are likely dying next turn

gsh second chance may be good in raids but not in horde

[dusky ginkgo]

Using that same logic about stat boosts, Deity never has been too strong. And for that matter neither was any class

Those stat boosts keep us alive to BL2 or Despair everything and likely kill them. You know, just like a mana rush or second chance on other classes. Summons getting eaten to boost stats and being sac’d to save us is on par with BeoH’s second chance passive and we can get them back

I don’t agree with GSH being bad in hordes. It plays on a similar level (I’d put GSH below by a little bit) to Heretic with a built in temp buff spam button

Is it clunkier until Hydrus Pact’s split damage is fixed? Absolutely. Does it lack a follower that can keep GM and DC up? Also yeah. But bad? Nah

[fathom kettle]

Ah gs bp is better than hypa at higher al(150+), not a spell that can be abused by everyone sadly.

[austere sedge]

i donno if many ppl agree on gsh being good in horde

when it was meant to be good

[rapid panther]

Tbf they are probably overtuned, the best non cele weapon has 20% bonus, 5 cele adorns are 100% (hoping they are additive), the only event weapon with bonus is a t9 instrument (also 20%) and if Erdr1ck is correct on it being m1 and not m2 bonus it means is basically impossible to resist it

[final wagon]

actually close to s raider shackled at mid-low agony

[final wagon]

I love gsh raiding pls don't nerf it

[void scaffold]

I love it too and if there're many many more that do there's nothing to be afraid of

[final wagon]

this is shackled

[floral jewel]

I'm glad there is still active discussion but a bit concerned there has been no feedback or noise from Odie

[fathom kettle]

How long it been since hypa release alr?

[void scaffold]

NF is pretty occupied with 2026 kickoff planning atm.
They're aware of GSH concerns.

[floral jewel]

It was end of November beginning of December time

[crystal gulch]

That is a bit hard for fixing hypa doing its job correctly

[austere sedge]

enough time has passed

[mossy nacelle]

What itens?

[mossy nacelle]

Thanks

[cedar atlas]

Thats clearly AI made. Lugus will only proc atk3 for mages and mag3 for melees 🫵
100% busted

[crystal girder]

I agree to this, T.Mag3 is for 90% proc chance for melee...

[rapid panther]

Did HyPa get fixed? This is on 2 enemies i feel like I'm doing more dmg

[tardy trail]

Nah, it’s not fixed

Just checked

[rapid panther]

Maybe t mag 3 procced and i didn't notice

[signal oasis]

Fresh off the mf grill

What if we make a summon passive similar to the player passive bb. Where summons offer a % chance of buffs or abilities when they are sacrificed. I.e

Amrak: bla bla bla flavor text.
Requires 2 turns in battle 
Tribute  pacts using this summon may crit. Health pacts using this summon restore far more health than usual.
Blood tribute 50% hydrus tribute 75%  life tribute +3
500 mp

So each summon has the Tribute passive, which activates 50% on blood pact and 75% on hpact

Thoughts?

This both makes summons far less "useless" and also gives a reasonable buff to hypact without tuning the class any further because as it stands GSH is in a very good spot if im being honest.

[signal oasis]

While life tribute being the scaler used when using charon pact ect for things with higher life scalers its generally based on HP of summons. Specifically for summons like amrak that require a considerable grind and are unique in nature but generally bad in any content or seen as a "wasted" skill slot, its because its supposed to be used for sacrificing not for fighting.

Similarly, spooky ghost, vss, summon dead, oynyo, belthier are quite literally fodder and should all share the same tribute:

Damaging pacts have much better penetration, chance to revive one summon based on level of hydrus. 
Blood pact pen 25% hpact pen 75%  Arise 15% per hydrus stack.

[signal oasis]

Glysion, Amrak, cernios, pantheon, summon animal, failed phoenix ect. Are special tributes. And generally can be used similarly to what they do

Think Glysion = break damage cap & reflect damage taken added to hpact.

Cernios = pact damage is increased to foes with light/dark weakness

Patheon= chance to permanent increas stats same rates as what the summon does when casting on player.
Hpact 100%(every hypact of patheon acts the same as patheons eos buff on player same odds as eos)

Failed phoenix Mage= must be sacrificed with melee; places phoenix debuff.

Failed phoenix melee= must be sacrificed with mage: further removes damage cap, further increases pact damage per sigil at 3x pheonix debuff
Hpact 100% (if both phoenix are sacrificed enemies get phoenix debuff, & damage dealt to phoenix debuff enemy has no damage cap at 3x phoenix debuff damage drastically surges. If both phoenix are not sacrificed together no change to hpact occurs)

[kind summit]

i think that's too complex...

[signal oasis]

Not even

Furthest from it

Its complicated reading but in practice its far less complicated

Itd bb but on summons.

[signal oasis]

What does this summon do/used for.
And what chance it activates via Hpact.
100% means hypact will function how this summon does. So in the event of patheon it mostly buffs things. So patheons tribute would attempt to buff the player any time patheon does to hpact.

[dusky ginkgo]

That sounds like a full class rework, not an addition to what is there. (Though, hey, neat idea!)

GSH is mainly (IMO) just missing Hydrus Pact split damage to make its horde utility/use better and anything beyond that plus or minus a few number tweaks here and there risks breaking the class

[signal oasis]

Full summon rework.

The class and its passives do not change.

Just the summon themselves recieve tribute. Which especially only works with hpact

And that isnt even a big rework. Each summon receives "tribute" passive.

Then you can per summon decide if it just has increased healing when sacrificed or if they do xyz. So killing penguin would just increase the odds of hpact giving askr buff or dc

[dusky ginkgo]

I’m not sure adding something to each summon isn’t a large amount of work

And looks like straight buffs to GSH

Which I’d be concerned would break the class

• especially in the content of “damaging pacts have much better penetration”. They’re already impossible to zero if you’re using any amount of pact damage, why do they need anymore m1?

[signal oasis]

And it would essentially cut down on the skills gsh even needs to function

Since summons essentially would replace the need for filling skill slots with shit that further wastes turns. Im even ok with removing pen because thats a great point I overlooked. We hsve amity for that.

[dusky ginkgo]

🤔 have you been playing GSH lately? Other than occasionally casting Summon Dead/Summon Scary Ghost, it’s pretty much Buff, Buff, press Hydrus Pact

[signal oasis]

Having them work 50% of the time with blood pact and 75% with hypact is fair.

[signal oasis]

I have but theres been MANY ocasion where turn slots for woo or a standard buff 100% leads to lost dungeons.

Or towers

[dusky ginkgo]

While I’m pretty sure most GS players would tell you not to use GSH in dungeons or towers, I’ve had little difficulty running buff duration and an Arisen Qatvanga in dungeons, using Hydrus Pact as a buff tool/finisher move and Brilliant Lights II is plenty for towers

[signal oasis]

However the biggest point i have is summoner class is a SUMMONER class.

Our summons leave alot to be desired and that lot is literally the answer to any feels bad of the class itself.

[dusky ginkgo]

Yes, and as “Hydrus” indicates, it’s actually more about the power to the player with summons as an extra.

Beowulf Hydrus is the same way- power to the player with a strong(er) option but not as strong of a follower.

I.E both celestial Hydrus classes are caster first, tamer/summoner second

[signal oasis]

My suggest fixed this line of thought.

[dusky ginkgo]

I don’t agree with this- from what I’ve seen, most players wanted a speedy horde class and GSH due to HyPa’s currently bugged splitting damage isn’t quite there. Adding additional passives to summons doesn’t change that or fix any of that.

[signal oasis]

If summons actually synergisticly function with hpact it feels better.

Youv used GSH. And I'm certain youv used hpact expecting that it will carry and it only gave dext and defense to the extent you have to waste a turn on buffs.

If this was 0% because penguin gave better odds for DC it functions better.

[dusky ginkgo]

I’m all for giving the different kinds of ammo (summons) different uses, but that is a huge amount of work and would need to come with removing all of the temp buffs for the sake of balance

Hence Guild Wars comment of “that sounds overly complicated.”

[signal oasis]

If patheon which is a pack summon gave chance for perm buffs this would reduce turns needed on mm & ect. Or especially having to leave the dungeon to regear so you can immune the stat debuffs

[signal oasis]

Not even, it would work fine in its current environment.

[dusky ginkgo]

Yeah, I’ve played literally only GSH since the rework other than today to try some other stuff out. And Hydrus Pact can carry just fine, just not in hordes beyond proccing buffs.

I zero everything so I don’t care if it only gives me defenses and dex. Magic just speeds stuff up

[signal oasis]

Hydrus went from unplayable to useable giving it the means to become strong is the furthest thing from brokeb

[dusky ginkgo]

If you don’t think Hydrus is already strong, I’d consider approaching the class from a different angle. Bug fixes needed aside, I don’t think anyone could convince me the class isn’t awesome and powerful and fun

[signal oasis]

Its definitely awesome and powerful and fun. But its touching the threshold of strong.

Strong classes are good in ALL content. Good classes are good in most, and bad classes are good in ONE. Which was recently the case with hydrus.

Making it good everywhere isnt broken imo.

And even in the event of reducing the potency of current hpact buffs and giving all summons tribute passive to give them all functionality. That still is worth looking at.

[dusky ginkgo]

By that token, since Gilgamesh can’t run endless, the class isn’t strong. And since Deity struggles in BoF Guild battles, it isn’t strong. And since Beo can’t really run Endless as effectively as GS, it isn’t strong either. Oh, and Heretic can’t reliably run shackled raids so it isn’t strong. And RS is pretty middle at everything so it isn’t strong. And GS can basically only raid and do endless so it isn’t strong. 🤔

[signal oasis]

And in all honesty im all for the tribute passive only being added to event summons and summons we had to grind our arses off for. Are you agenst that?

[signal oasis]

Bof isnt even considered.

Thats like me brining up trials

[dusky ginkgo]

Yes. I’m pretty against any buff added without something else taken away shy of bug fixes

You said ALL content 🫣

[signal oasis]

The second you add bof into PVE(which has been the case since the dawn of the game) adding pve witch is an ENTIRELY different entity as it involves players.( iv never once seen a diety die to bof pve encounters) it becomes semantics

[signal oasis]

Which bugs exactly the invisible summons?

[dusky ginkgo]

And Hydrus Pact splitting damage between targets at a much larger rate than other split damage abilities - also currently can’t chain to hit a 4th target (though not sure if that one is a bug or not)

[signal oasis]

That isnt a bug

Hydrus at 1 like 25% chance to hit 2, at 2 like 15% chance to hit 3, and at 3 sacrifices WILL hit 3.

Its not a chance

Were literally giving up recorces

[dusky ginkgo]

Based on beta testing and all of the conversations in this thread, yeah it kind of is. It’s not about hitting the other targets it’s about something that does 400k damage to a single target now doing 50k to two

[signal oasis]

If ward damage based abilities take over HALF of your avslile ward and you only hsve a 45% chance to recover ward.

[dusky ginkgo]

Even Maji’s AoE moves and Arrowstorm don’t split the damage so drastically based on the number of targets hit

[signal oasis]

Im sure gikga players would foam at the mouth

[dusky ginkgo]

I think you’re misunderstanding me

[signal oasis]

Iv always seen it as an even split

Usually the split is significantly less prominent. Because there are more than 3 targets

Hm. I guess I havent noticed it

Is that why things im usually hitting for sevral hundred k are just taking 90 k now?

Because I noticed that towards the middle of this month

[dusky ginkgo]

The bug is Hydrus Pact’s damage when it splits gets reduced at a higher rate than it should (based on math as far as everyone can tell). As per the discussions here, the ability was intended to be a quick horde move but is hampered by low damage against multiple targets because of this

If that is fixed alongside invisible summons, I’m not sure I think the class needs much else. Even with those bugs in place, it (the class) still functions very well, just not as well as intended in horde dungeons

[fathom kettle]

Aoe dmg is bugged rn, 1/3 dmg of what it suppose to be

Im happy with my summonir, gsa for horde, gsh for raids.

Pvp i mix gsa and gsh based on enemy

Only real thing were actually lacking is ability for despair

Despair as anguish

[dusky ginkgo]

Pffft GSH for everythinggggg… except maybe setting up endless. Oh yeah and Despair is kinda rough

[fathom kettle]

Since we don't got smth of blueline or redline that boost our dmg and no pact being able to hit 3 enemies first turn

But in every other content summonir isn't that lacking, atleast in terms of solo content

Party play well summonir isn't made for it

[dusky ginkgo]

I’ve been thinking about that. Letting summons up to 3 even with 3 other players (if possible) would be a small QoL

Though goodness help the party of 4 summoners with 12 summons on the field 😂

[fathom kettle]

Ain't happening, but still, would't be 12 summons but 3 summons with 4 players

Im all for buffing summoner 🥸

[dusky ginkgo]

Sounds like a fun April fools day event to crash the servers

[fathom kettle]

I tought of summoners having pet and other classes summons as april fool joke for 1 day 🤣

[dusky ginkgo]

😂

[fathom kettle]

Would backfire rly bad tho, 1 day of insane grind

Endless easy 2k+ floors with pet giving tmag tall 3 constantly

[dusky ginkgo]

Summoners get pets but they don’t do anything and everyone else gets summons but they never act 😂

[fathom kettle]

Its a ghost town~

[signal oasis]

Idk, I still feel like summons should get tribute as an ability for summons.

Even if it just increases health gain when using Charon pact. Or slightly improve chance of specific temp ups.
But patheon getting chance to perm based on the summons rates of it.
Amrok giving pacts crit chance
That and
And summon gear being able to function with CR II & Paird essence.

Are non negotiable. Because its really unfair that every class has everything baked in and all summoner functionality just feel clunky comparatively

[kind summit]

love that Statement

[rapid panther]

Phaeton already gives you perm buffs, sphinx kit is a cleanse bot and tortoise uses rampart (tho not as often as i would like), to be honest we just need more utility summons like these

[signal oasis]

Yes but the odds of them sticking around

Is VERY slim

Either hpact will kill them or enemies will with their next to nothing statline.

[rapid panther]

You need them in the first 2-3 turns only anyway

[signal oasis]

I want to see someone use patheon turn 1-3 and get every relevant stat buff just with it.

[rapid panther]

You just mag1 tbh

Mimic yourself, dc (snotra) and then ready to roll

[signal oasis]

There should be a thread of everyone showing their starting play actions. So I can see yalls anguish, AL, and gear because the way yall are talking.

Woo is optional, and your summons have enough summonnstats to either kill everything so you dont get murked turn 1 or you simply dont get targeted turns 1-3

[fathom kettle]

Im always doing that, not even putting ward, pure glass cannon

This build

[rapid panther]

I'm too lazy to farm agony, I'm only level 10, but my build is basically the same as -The, i use the 2h staff instead for roleplay

[fathom kettle]

Maybe i'll put ward and change summons to anubis and fkelpie if mass farming amorries

Or change accessory based on raid

[rapid panther]

I use fey kelpie for tower titans and hyperion only

[signal oasis]

Hoa is significantly easier than orna.

[fathom kettle]

How so

[signal oasis]

It feels easier. I stopped playing atheric entirely because it didnt give thw difficulty of orna.

[fathom kettle]

Its same, other that we don't have to walk

[signal oasis]

Its weird tho because they definitely are the same game

[fathom kettle]

Raids are same

[signal oasis]

I know it just feels easier

In the same way soulsborns feel easy to me after playing monster hunter my whole life.

Same exact mechanics mororless just souls feels like it was made for kids

[fathom kettle]

Well that's just you

But from what i heard hoa is easlier for grinding things like als

Not sure how but i heard that somewhere

[signal oasis]

Once you put on anguish especially at 0 AL youre not comfortably buffing or even living without a woo beforehand.

[signal oasis]

Because its a different play format

[rapid panther]

I'm at 30al and running shackled agony10, I need woo only for amorri and some super raids

[signal oasis]

Im as 28

And especially hard mode event dungeon.

Can definitely get 1 banged if im just buffing. Without woo.

Regardless

[fathom kettle]

For horde content yea

[signal oasis]

Dont matter if im in this or paper

[signal oasis]

This has been my entire point.

[rapid panther]

Why dual wielding for horde?

[signal oasis]

Having tribute on summons means buffing is synergistic and not a turn loss.

[rapid panther]

Despair, chain-dmg and even t6 trev staff give way better survivability

[signal oasis]

Who doesn't dual wield with sequencer?

[signal oasis]

Everyone keeps saying despair like tf even is that. 😅🫠 I rarely can play as it is. But this term has come up ALOT and I havent seen it on any of my gear.

[rapid panther]

For dungeoning i feel only heretic uses sequencer

[rapid panther]

2h weapon from arisen mammon

[signal oasis]

Oh qualivaga or w.e

[rapid panther]

Aoe arcane spell, no crit and no split dmg

[fathom kettle]

Qatavanga

[signal oasis]

Idek if I have one

[fathom kettle]

Bl2 is better tho

[signal oasis]

Well thats out of the question I dont even hsve one of those

[signal oasis]

At standard rarity is it even good?

[fathom kettle]

No

[rapid panther]

I was suggesting alternatives to that

[signal oasis]

Ok so my best option is dual welding sequence.

[rapid panther]

Qatvanga is non event and kinda easy to farm

Have you unlocked heretic ara? A crit build with ara vesta is better than dual wield in horde dungeons

[signal oasis]

But my lack of having one means as I said my best dps is dual wield seq

[lament pollen]

HoA has slightly smaller penalties in ang paths (mob stat scaling) than Orna. But yea, that's about it

[signal oasis]

No and im a GS main

I don't and wont touch another class unless its to unlock more skills i could use.

[rapid panther]

Doesn't matter the main, ara vesta can be used by everyone

You should unlock every celestial for the skills

[signal oasis]

So AV>hpa

Because in this event adding the tribute passive to summons only mskes even more sense.

[rapid panther]

Anything that make you resist 4 or 5 hits is

So either a 2h weap or 1h plus shield

Hypa problem with split dmg and inability to chain doesn't help tho

[ruby raven]

I mean you don't have to unlock all of them

But yeah GSH without a lot of investment can be pretty bad feeling, I do share the sentiment that hypa is great for early AL raiding and anguish raiding

But I don't share the feeling that GSH is good in horde content, it's just not it's strongpoint, it's good in offense pvp (kinda), and raids

Everywhere else it's pretty lack luster, it's just a underwhelming mage with meatshields, and only 1 damaging pact it will likely use, with no real good longterm scaling

It's second chance passive is just funny, it's probably just one of the most useless passives, but it can save you if you get lucky you don't die from being singled out

That's just my opinion though^ feel free to play and enjoy the class it just isn't for me

[signal oasis]

Can you peep/reply to my idea of giving summons themselves a passive that augments pacts functionality.

Because I ginunely feel like I agree with and understand everything youre saying. And would love actual input vs "gs is super strong and dosent need anything but bugfixing"

[fathom kettle]

I mean, not every class gotts be op at couple contents. We got gsa doing good in horde, gsh being mid?(Idk i never switchrd from gsa) While gsh is op in raids.

[ruby raven]

It's a decent idea, and I admire the uniqueness

But that would probably take forever to code for the HUGE list of summons we have 😅

I think GSH being able to use spells summons have access too, would be a cool idea to implement but also a huge code issue

It's so hard to make GSH, balanced/fun, it's a mage that uses summons, it's hypa is strong and especially strong for raids early game, you don't need the most optimal gear to get it online BUT T.buff RNG can make some mad XD

Simple and easy fixes

1.More Gear that adds pact% on events
2.Gear that adds to the charon passive
3. (Idk If the intention is to make GSH aoe) fix the bugs on hypa, and make it available to be able to use hypa every floor, ofc with event gear^ so it's not super early accessible
4. I'd personally bring it's summon protection chance back, it fits way better then a second chance passive imo

I think the main issue is GSH regardless can come online faster then most classes, as the entire GS line is basically, GS has the less gear requirements and that shares among its lines, though GSH leans a tiny bit more gear heavy which can turn off a lot of GS mains tbh

[rapid panther]

I mean, there are pretty easy fixes, pact dmg should be m2 instead of m1 and make the spell non split

[fierce crag]

I think split would be fine, but currently it is (much) less than typical split damage.

[rapid panther]

It's still just 3 enemies max, I'm not sure split damage is necessary

[fierce crag]

As you additionally get t.buffs plus a ward turn, full aoe world be too strong I think.

[rapid panther]

It's not full tho

[fierce crag]

Still too strong 😉

At least I would wait how gsh performs when hypa is fixed. I would probably still use it with BL2 for full aoe and hypa for t.buffs and for strong 1-2 enemies.

[signal oasis]

Thank you, i often get trolls instead of actual input when it comes to things like this.

[dusky ginkgo]

I think some split is fine as that seems to be the intent but the 1/3 is very high

Per the second one (assuming I am even correct about Pact Power), m2 instead of m1 Boost loses efficacy in Anguish, shuts off an entire line of builds (tanking in PvE) and also hurts Bloodpact builds for GS and GSA

There are still related problem abilities that need addressing first if the concern is primarily PvP

[twin crystal]

i think hypa is doing too much dmg against single target and too little against multi

it will be up to GS to decide what is the unique identity of hypa over other pact

[signal oasis]

Gs? Idk if youv tried using blood pact.

Theres a reason hypact was made, and definitely a reason that outside of hypact gsh uses other classes spells or BL2/despair ect. Not blood pact .

[granite escarp]

Anguish difficulty does scale slower in HoA than Orna

[dusky ginkgo]

In what context?

[twin crystal]

personal opinion when compared to bloodpact. So much that I questioned if there is an overlap between bloodpact and hypa.

Which is why I am saying if it is up to GS to choose if they want bloodpact and hypa to cover different aspect of gameplay or to do the same stuff

[bronze relic]

nerf gsh

[dusky ginkgo]

Hmm but by that same token you have people who complain that Bloodpact outdamages Hydrus Pact after an AL point and even more so on base GS

I haven't seen that point myself though so I'm just repeating what others say

To me it's more about Blood Pact is a spammable resource with fat summons that can also deal damage whereas Hydrus Pact isn't quite as spammable and involves managing ammo. It has a double weakness in that AoE raids make it tough to get that ammo going and trash the damage of the move

Which I'm fine with staying personally (to an extent) though it'd be nice to just see the damage split like other AoE damage moves and thus also be able to use Chain+ chance to occasionally hit a 4th target if they're present (currently it is 3 max no matter how much chain chance you add) as well occasionally get a 2 for 1 summon hit and such

[rapid panther]

Technically you would need to build mag stat more than now, it would make it more gear dependent

For the split is just that imo since it doesn't hit the full board it doesn't make too much sense to be there

[dusky ginkgo]

Then we'd better be doing across the board. If mages can't defend against their melee counterparts, it feels fair that the door swings both ways imho.

I don't want to start that discussion as a whole as it is pvp specific but that seems to be the concern I see most about the damage/m1/pact damage (if that wasn't your concern, sorry for misunderstanding!)

[fathom kettle]

AoE raids and summoning raids

Been doing rift judgments t8 ones and it keeps summoning before i hit

Then i need to summon again and suddenly he got even more

[rapid panther]

i don't want it to pass through as a concern, it's more of a strange feeling the fact that every multiplier is m2 while this is m1 (allegedly), maybe is just that hypa as extremely high m1 natively

the split comment is just an opinion i developed by playing extensively gsh after the update, fixing chain and split maybe will change this opinion i have

[rapid panther]

i take that as a natural counter to the spell/mechanic, like it is for collateral damage as well

(and talking about pvp i mostly still use BP with summon that hit fairly hard with gsh since parapet and second chances are meta and hypa leaves you too open)

[fathom kettle]

Yup, i only use hypa in war if i know my enemy is high al tank like gilga

Ppl be talking like hypa is too op in pvp but is dealing like 75% dmg of hypa, while having pet block, parapet and 2nd chance proc way too many times not alot more op?

I can deal 5x more than your hp but it doesn't matter when you can't hit rs and other classes get 2nd chance and smack you just as hard

[rapid panther]

Sums it pretty well, i do 100kish with BP2 and 250kish with HyPa but with the first i still have second chance and charon ritual possible procc, the second leaves me completely open

[fathom kettle]

Yea, i think of hypa as way for newbies to beat ppl in conq, ones that got crazy high ward atleast.

[dusky ginkgo]

What do you mean by every multiplier? For instance, Flask Power appears to be m1 based on GP and others’ testing

By that same token, I ran high anguish raids with Magic but no pact power and got zero’d out just to test hence my assumption it is an m1 multiplier

[rapid panther]

Didn't know about flasks

That test pretty much comfirms it, if it was m2 you would have been zeroed as well

[twin crystal]

Wait till u become the receiving end from a newbie using hypa

Then you will be singing a different tune

[dusky ginkgo]

Then I’ll swap to GS or GSA and cut their damage into 1/3rd or run GUrsa and tank it unless they have perfect gear

Or I’ll realize that even if they were the same AL as me, my ward builds scale defensively and offensively far better than their magic outside of Hydrus Pact and Blood Ray options and I’ll equip Parapet and Pet block like every mage player has to do to a gust of wind blowing through their territories 😉

[dusky ginkgo]

Yeah just for funsies I equipped -400 Magic and +20% Pact Power, wasn’t zeroed

[rapid panther]

I would say confirmed, it still gives me a strange feeling as to why it was deemed better to put it on m1 (including flasks at this point) not necessarily a bad thing, just strange

[dusky ginkgo]

Mages (as a whole) have needed some tools that don’t get obliterated by anguish (or other players). Are they too good? Maybe. But in the current landscape of Orna I am not so sure

[fathom kettle]

Wait till u get pet blocked couple times in row and then 2nd chance and parapet. We can talk like that all day.

The truth it hypa is nowhere near meta for pvp, its good untill you get better options.

Its also not usable in bof either.

Hypa was op in pvp only in beta, when it could bypass 2nd chance and those with multi hit. But naw its single hit that's not hard to beat

[austere sedge]

bp is better

hypa only redeeming quality is buff

[fathom kettle]

Bp was and will be stronger since quadscaling. Its not better, its strongest spell in game.

[signal oasis]

Better in what sense?

[fathom kettle]

Dmg, bp is strongest spell in game afterall

[austere sedge]

survivability too

you don't need to sac your summons duh

it's a lot sustainable too

[fathom kettle]

Not rly, maybe in full glass canon.

But still overall hypa builds got more sutvivablity

[bronze relic]

id choose bp over hypa any day for short hp raids

hypa better for longer fights

doesn't require any al, just invest on the set

[dusky ginkgo]

You can do that but I’m pretty sure you’d be slower than HyPa Glass cannon 😎

Hydrus Pact is just a particular versatile raiding tool allowing glass or tank and long or short

I’ll admit my Bloodpact experience is limited but after seeing Ancient and a few others speed raid with HyPa, I don’t think Blood Pact is faster for shorter - especially if you get back rift lock rolls

[fathom kettle]

It def it, 3 buff and you can hit for ALOT

[bronze relic]

it is faster for shorter raids especially if u got massive amounts of al

u just buff for 3 turns and then spam bp2, no resummoning

[signal oasis]

For what its worth. It really REALLY doesn't feel like it.

[fathom kettle]

That's bc your low al

Bp is only quadscaling spell in game

[signal oasis]

Well not all of us have a trillion mats to put into 100 als

Also it would have to be BP on gs no?

Not gsh

Because that shit hits like a wet noodle for me vs HyPa iv hit damage cap multiple times.

[final wagon]

100 als isn't even that much these days (really 🙁 )

but yes it's GS not GSH after you have like 20 ALs or something close to that

[signal oasis]

Ok then im missing gear probably

Because im 28al

BP hits like a fart

[crystal girder]

HyPa is better for fast fight, blood pact is more like longer fights but BP needs alat of ALs and Gear investment, not like HyPa, HyPa just need Gear for the +Pact Damage%

[fathom kettle]

Other way

Hypa deals small dmg with just snotra, jinn and gods compared to bl

Bp*

But once you sacrifice couple summons and get tbuffs, you hit cap easy

[crystal girder]

I do 19M HyPa that doublecasted, with niche gear, I can't do that with BP.

[final wagon]

at high agony is actually the opposite, because BP3 damage is capped at 5 (sometimes 6 depends on rounding) attacks before your summons die and healing them is a waste of turns and kills you more than you would like

[austere sedge]

(me seeing this thread become gsh discussion instead of balance change because it's been months since we got update)

just give gsh avidity like passive, replace second chance with dodge, fix split damage, maybe give t. all+++, more ward turn from hypa.

and now gsh has almost no problems

and not overpowered too because it's still a glass cannon

and if someone thinks it will become more overpowered in raids then reduce it's single target damage potential

[austere sedge]

wow no counter argument 👀

just ❌

disappointing

i wanted feedback

[signal oasis]

Essentially gsh is at a decent place. Hypact and a few bugs are the issue

[austere sedge]

gsh is supposed to be good at horde so lemme ask is gsh good in horde

or it's a weaker bl2 spammer

[signal oasis]

As a class it has nothing in its kit to make dungeons feel good attall. So without event gear its better to switch to gsa for dungeons/towers. That or unlock hera ara for spells

[austere sedge]

gsh second chance work against it so is that good?

[signal oasis]

Iv been no lifong the event dungeons with a level 6 yelg quarter because it feels better than hypact and hits more targets.

[austere sedge]

gsh lost ward per sacrifice and now has ward per enemy hit is that good?

[signal oasis]

Hypact is essentially a buff randomizer and way to reach max potential on hydrus passive

[austere sedge]

gsh being part thief and getting avidity like passive that fill ammo problems is bad suggestion?

[signal oasis]

Nothing els in order for hydus to work you NEED other classes or event items for it to feel playable in dungeons/towers

[signal oasis]

NO

[austere sedge]

hypa is supposed to be good at horde

[signal oasis]

That dosent even need to be responded to. However this does exist and iv found it feels good when it procs. But avidity is shadowmancy. Summoners are not shadowmancers.

[austere sedge]

not be buff spell for bl2

[austere sedge]

gsh is thief too

other class get multiple trunk thing too

[signal oasis]

Show me where RS dorito has collateral damage

[austere sedge]

(my internet isn't working and images aren't loading too)

[signal oasis]

Pmuch if you want another turn use the disciple or the momentum amity

No need reaching for straws

[austere sedge]

gsh being combination of summoner mage and thief now tell me which part of it act as thief

[signal oasis]

Because I promise something will die when you hypact and every turn you get to act is another turn to proc CRII. However appart of the base kit

[austere sedge]

having avidity or dodge doesn't get outside of its identity and work well with it

[signal oasis]

Even if its avidity 1 its still not balanced

[austere sedge]

it doesn't even need to be good as avidity one

just enough to fill ammo problem

[signal oasis]

And what dodge literally sacrifice summons. Iv noted that I die most to not having ward up. NOT because im not dodging enough

[austere sedge]

if your dodge is dependent on no. of summon on field it'll be more helpful than current second chance that is almost guaranteed death in next turn

lot more dependable too

I'm not saying it should be X% avidity or dodge because that should come after balancing

[signal oasis]

Mind you

Right forgot you cant see videos

[austere sedge]

XD

[signal oasis]

So my dext is 900 dungeons, 1k raids, 1k Towers. At BASE.

The second any more than 2 summons are sacrificed, its going to take an act of god or a realmshifter for me to get hit.

[austere sedge]

I'm not against adjustment

in stat or passive

all I'm saying that current passive aren't good

from my point of view gsh is good at raid and a weaker bl2 spammer

having thief like passive looks a lot better

[signal oasis]

And once im at 10 hydrus, with such high dext it truly doesnt matter what im wearing because my current build is mag damage sky boots hera robe with yelg & a onc.

Just onc and a lv 6 yelg quarter is enough to tank atleast 9 hard hits before I die. And of the nine requires 7 usually miss.

Especially if im at full buffs.

Hear me out I HATE that we NEED BL 2, AV ect. Otherwise our class is a joke in towers & dungeons.

[austere sedge]

all my suggestion have reason

1. avidity - fill ammo problems in gsh
2. dodge - better than second chance
   3)More ward turn - you aren't very cooked if you miss.

[signal oasis]

But avidity isnt the answer

[austere sedge]

it doesn't need to be avidity exactly

[signal oasis]

Remove avidity and thats the start point.

[austere sedge]

just something that can give 1 turn sometimes

so you don't have to worry about ammo

[signal oasis]

There already "is" the consensus is were actually supposed to wear the ruic gear xD for the 7% summon chance.

[austere sedge]

7% auto summon?

or double summon?

[signal oasis]

But that feels even worse, because its essentially saying, our class is only complete with that gear

Theres nothing that gives extra auto summon

Because if there was that shit would become a staple on ever gsh

[austere sedge]

if it's double summon then what's the point

[austere sedge]

cr is exactly that

okay i have another idea that can replace avidity

cr rate buff

now you can auto summon right after hypa

[signal oasis]

...... ill reiterate because it seems like suddenly were having 2 different conversation. Theres nothing that boosts the odds of cr happening.

[austere sedge]

and auto summon like usual at start of turn

[austere sedge]

i was confused that ruaric gear give cr boosting gear

now I'm not

[signal oasis]

I feel like NF is going to drop adornments in the rift event that like 1-3% cr rate

Because its happened for every class sofar

[austere sedge]

would be lot helpful if it's armor one

since we are dependent on pact staff

and 1 adorn is ashen ruby

leaving around 3 adorn in off hand (if using nekro staff)

[signal oasis]

They made changes to gilga and rs then beasts event came out with stuff that boosts avidity & CD. Same with diety the wind tamer & darkness event, also the shadow gear from it for RS. Im thinking well see a huge qol adorn/random gear drop during it.

[austere sedge]

if ammo problem is getting fixed by more cr rate then avidity isn't needed

[signal oasis]

So im putting all my eggs in that basket

[austere sedge]

but it should happen

[signal oasis]

Avidity was never needed

Run disciple or momentum amity

[austere sedge]

it was if you don't want to be bl2 spammee

[signal oasis]

6%momentum> 4% pact damage amity

[austere sedge]

i am using avidity but my intention is to get something that give 1 turn sometimes so you can fill ammo after hypa

[signal oasis]

Disciple spec. Or momentum amity

[austere sedge]

momentum amity isn't dependable

and I'm already using dof

[signal oasis]

Im currently using a 6% momentum amity. Even if i weren't using BL2 id trust that shit to carry.

[austere sedge]

and that's why i want it on base gsh

[signal oasis]

It doesnt need to be. Orns are not that hard to come by

[austere sedge]

even way weaker avidity is good

all i need is 1 turn

[signal oasis]

Just disciple for towers/dungeons

[austere sedge]

sometimes

not like thief

[signal oasis]

And w.e for everything els

[austere sedge]

but cr rate can fix it if we can auto summon right after our turn end

[signal oasis]

What is your summon Loadout(just summons w.e other spells/skills your using is between you and your gob lmfao.)

Mine is ghost, GP, and kit.

[austere sedge]

i use ad, spooky ghost, vss and summon dead

i replace ad with gp when I'm in party (rarely happens)

[signal oasis]

Ghost/vss are mutually exclusive. Gotta cut one Ideally vss tbh.

Ghost in every way is better vss.

Immunes physical & dark

[austere sedge]

ghost have physical immunity and vss has debuff and both are Horde increasing possibility of filling whole field increasing my survivability

[signal oasis]

Which includes things like tempest from MG, "you are weak" amori ultimate, and quite a few other otherwise run understand.

[austere sedge]

so ammo problem can be fixed with cr/avidity (some ppl against it) but second chance being bad still stands

and dodge dependent on no. of summon on field (not affected by dex) could solve that

[signal oasis]

People arnt agenst cr. You keep saying avidity which will get you downvoted to hell

Summoner already is the redheaded stepchild of classes. Dont use words like avidity or other classes broken passives.

[austere sedge]

it's a possible solution so mentioning it is not wrong

[signal oasis]

Its not tho

[austere sedge]

tell me how it wouldn't fix the ammo problem

[signal oasis]

Theres far more in the summoning kit that keeps getting overlooked.

[austere sedge]

example?

[signal oasis]

Summons themselves

Iv pushed this a few times

[austere sedge]

yeah which ones?

[signal oasis]

If summons themselves gaind a bb esq passive

Called tribute or sacrificial lamb ect name doesnt matter.

[austere sedge]

in beta many ppl including me asked for passives on support summon to make them viable

it didn't happen

and that was in early to mid thread not even when work was done

[signal oasis]

Point is, sacrificing an undead summon increases cr chance. Sacrificing summons that inherently use ward skills procs ward gain, sacrificing summons that use things like DC ect, to hypact inc chances of DC procing via hypact

Literally the answer to anything summoner should be solved IN THE CLASS.

Not outside of it

[austere sedge]

that idea was in beta and that's how we got ward turn from hypa and temp buff from hypa

tho both got nerfed

just when they came in live

[signal oasis]

Because they weren't what I'm talking about

Those were hyoact itself

The issue isnt hypsct

The issue is the summons

Give them ALL the passive that "if im sacrificed or die to blood pact I do this"

NOT give hypact and also I give even better buffs.

[austere sedge]

you really think we will get many summons to fix problems instead of directly adjusting passive or hypa

[signal oasis]

Passive and hypa arnt ane have never been the issue

The issue has always been the ammunition as you call it.

[austere sedge]

even when everyone were against second chance we still got it in live

that passive is completely against its identity

[signal oasis]

Were shooting bullets when we could be selecting and using our ammo based on what we want our build to be.

Theres nothing wrong with the gun.

The ammo is where were falling short.

[austere sedge]

cr fix it horde summon fix it

[ruby raven]

68 summons ( not counting some varients ) to code for this would a a huge ask 😅

[signal oasis]

Its not

[austere sedge]

i still can't understand why avidity is getting so much resistance

but i don't care it's fine

[signal oasis]

How many pets are there? Because they all have "bonded xyz"
Literally give all summons "tribute; does this or that"

[austere sedge]

but current second chance is a problem

[ruby raven]

It would be OP even I can't deny that lol

[signal oasis]

And it wont even be nearly as potent as bb

[austere sedge]

just 1 turn sometimes too?

just enough to fill ammo

other class have similar things

[signal oasis]

Even something as small as 1-3% xyz makes both hypact viable and gives us build diversity.

[austere sedge]

like heretic manaflask or diety with some skill

[ruby raven]

Pets and summons are two different entities with two different AI's

On that note different stats/moves/interactions ect

[signal oasis]

Exactly so summons should have inherently "if im sacrificed i do xyz"

[austere sedge]

if there is another solution for second chance instead of dodge and has synergy with hypa then i really don't mind dodge passive idea being dismissed

[ruby raven]

It couldn't be avidity, but if reworked into something else that supports the playstyle besides avidity wouldn't be a bad outcome

[austere sedge]

doesn't that increase work on devs a bit too much

[austere sedge]

I'm only using avidity but what i want is to fix ammo problem

[signal oasis]

It really dosrnt and shouldn't. This is something thats just been missing in general.b

[austere sedge]

it's not even avidity if it just give 1 turn sometimes

[signal oasis]

The issue and biggest reason gsh has been in the kitchen was due to the entire community having no idea how to solve its reliance on summons.

[austere sedge]

ppl get against it just by hearing work avidity without checking my explanation 😔

[ruby raven]

Making that for every summon would be a HUGE code ask

Considering item summons ect as well here, there's already so much that we don't know about them XD

It would be easier to add new summons to offer as better ammo then to recode every summon to have a hidden effect for GSH

[signal oasis]

Making summons into ammo literally solves everything any issue someone who mains summoner has with summons is solved by making summons actually synergistically interact with the summoner kit more than meatshield.

[austere sedge]

the way gsh work rn summon are meat shield and ammo

and their consumption is way more

[signal oasis]

"For gsh" NO; for being sacrificed to pacts.

[austere sedge]

i really don't understand why they nerfed ward turn too

it wasn't even overpowered to begin with

you sac x summon you get x ward turn

[signal oasis]

Gsh gh gsa hell since diety has summons now to even them. Anyone that summons and has the means to sacrifice them has a way to benifit. It only benefits gsh more than others due it its pact scaling

[ruby raven]

Gsh is the only class realistically sacrificing summons

The rest of the GS lines it would be too much of a hassle to sac

[signal oasis]

You all keep trying to view it as. "We first need to make sure hydrus" no. Summons just need to be synergistic with the summoners tools.

[signal oasis]

If they die to blood pact it still works.

Same for Charon pact for summons that specifically work with those.

[austere sedge]

what you are asking for is less likely to happen and has way more work load on devs

[signal oasis]

How

[austere sedge]

there are many summons

[signal oasis]

There are more pets than summons

Like almost 8x as many

[austere sedge]

you forgot how summoner condition is in community

[signal oasis]

Also it dosent have to be THE ENTIRE SUMMON LIST. Literally if its just 5 summons and then they slowly update the rest as time goes on. Literally would nake a world of difference.

[austere sedge]

just using word avidity can get me many downvote XD

[signal oasis]

I already told you that

[ruby raven]

Doesn't matter, you don't want them to die

Summoner has some of the weakest def/res stats in game with no autosummon, no one would use a feature like this but GSH, where it's the only conventional class to sacrifice summons for

[austere sedge]

rather getting new summon slowly with passive is lot better

i really don't like gsh i rather have gsc

[signal oasis]

Eventually the entire summon list would need to be updated. But yes this was the main idea.

[austere sedge]

lot cooler

way better

[austere sedge]

no entire summon list getting update is horrible idea

[signal oasis]

I dont see how.

[austere sedge]

or very time taking

[ruby raven]

Tbf pets have existed longer then summons have, and are arguably easier to balance

If we threw a ratio out, there are more USEFUL summons then there aren't compared to pets XD

[austere sedge]

devs will have to work on every summon

[signal oasis]

If im going by your logic pets are smarter than summons by a wide margin

[austere sedge]

giving them any sort of synergy

[signal oasis]

They will literally not attack of faced with all immune.

[austere sedge]

and balancing

[signal oasis]

And they are more likely to do exactly whats needed.

[austere sedge]

and bug fixes

[signal oasis]

Bro, if summon is sacrificed does effect. Then tweak effect based on summon and make it ridiculously small margins.

[austere sedge]

then what's the point of it?

[ruby raven]

Pets act less then summons do

Summon is GARENTEED to do something in a turn, pets aren't

[signal oasis]

Regardless of how different they are they are all summons thus all connected.

[austere sedge]

we are getting off topic

this thread motive is to balance gsh

there are few problems

[signal oasis]

If youre saying pets i assume youre referring to beo to keep this conversation not convoluted.

Because beo have 100% pet action generally.

[austere sedge]

ammo, second chance and survivability and ability to perform in horde

[signal oasis]

Honestly i dont egen see the point of second chance that needs to be removed

[ruby raven]

I mean pets in general XD not specific to a class, as not all pets are balanced too one class 🤔

[austere sedge]

bruh are you joking

imma just go i can handle this

[signal oasis]

Were sacrificing summons faster yet producing them at a rate far lower than the system tracks them being on the feals when you die IF it procs.

Feald

[ruby raven]

Best simple solutions

Boosts CR rate via new event gears

Change second chance passive to something possibly more useful in a horde situation ( maybe chain chance or something )

Introduce better horde summons as spells a little catered to GSH playstyle

Otherwise there are some bug fixes that also are being worked on and may change

[signal oasis]

New adornment

We dont need actual armor or weapons for that.

Armor makes sense in the case of; pet action, crit, ward, mana flask, summon stats, ward, ect. However collateral damage, avidity, crit rate ect are on adorns cr II needs adorns not armor

To make it on gear is a MASSIVE disservice to summoners

We have good gear

We need adornments

[ruby raven]

It could be on gear, legs or chest, head piece even for those that miss riftfall anyway

It would make hypa able to be online every turn not wasting turns all in all it could be on gear just to balance it out XD

[tawny path]

Quick question to help me keep up… CR?

[signal oasis]

It really REALLY cannot be gear

[signal oasis]

Charons ritual

[ruby raven]

Charon ritual, passive on GSH

[signal oasis]

I thought it was cr II lol

[ruby raven]

If it garentees 90% CR rate, it could be on gear lol

[signal oasis]

No

[tawny path]

I think there has to be a balance on that.

[signal oasis]

That sets a horrible precedence

[tawny path]

90% CR means you never stop spamming HyPa.

[ruby raven]

It would still dmg cap on raids, and dungeons be one of the strongest semi AOE out there

[signal oasis]

Imagine if out the gates they made collateral damage 20% armor

Or avidity 12 armor ect.

[tawny path]

For the same reason a GSH can’t sit with another summoner. GSH doesn’t buff Hydrus unless a summon created by the GSH is used. I also notice damage is trash when using other summons.

[signal oasis]

It has to be adorns that boosts the smallest level to make it actually viable and not cracked

[tawny path]

If GSH had a guaranteed source of summons every round that would be INSANE.

[signal oasis]

This is due to 2 S bang

[tawny path]

Like, Avidity caps at 30% IIIRC.

[signal oasis]

Summoner agura makes belthier summoner hydrus blood pacts

Literally can kill a wrb in like 2 hits

[tawny path]

CD damage can go higher than your base damage but you have to sacrifice a lot to get there.

[ruby raven]

That interaction doesn't exist anymore

[signal oasis]

I was explaing to him why other summon damagenis trash now

[ruby raven]

Oooo yeah

[tawny path]

Adding more than 10% to CR would be horribly unbalanced IMO.

[signal oasis]

Thats why my answer is making a few summons gain the passive and eventually the entire summon lineup the abilty to augment being sacrificed.

I.e

[ruby raven]

That only caters to GSH and overall a huge ask imo

Rather then go the simple route and introduce gears to fix the problems XD

[tawny path]

If you’re wanting CR to go up high through gear, that gear absolutely should have -mag on it.

[ruby raven]

Only for raids maybe

In dungeons where hypa was meant to be the sole AOE solution to summoners

It would still need more CR rate XD

[signal oasis]

undead summons gain "while being sacrificed .07% buf to CR"meaning 53%ish cr if 3 undead are sacrificed. Called "tribute" and is avalibe on all summons but have different effects per summonlike they lightly ajust functionality of what sacrificial pacts do.

But it essentially functions as what bb is but only on summons themselves

[tawny path]

Oh where the more you sacrifice the higher chance to summon more?

[signal oasis]

And since we cant even SEE our summons codex

[tawny path]

Correct me if I’m wrong but the summon codex = The actual mob/boss codex.

[signal oasis]

Yes its a very low chance to augment the affect of your sacrificed but 3x of the same summon buffs the abilities

[austere sedge]

how about auto summon can happen at the end of turn and at the start of turn

[ruby raven]

I was thinking 90% with all 3 peices

It wouldn't need -mag, granted you're losing out on Gods of aaru and 40% pact dmg cause of this, and it's not full AOE+split

But we could say
10% per piece as reference, 70% 3 set

[signal oasis]

Also i didnt mean to rage bait you but currently the "second chance" isnt a "second chance" if were actually using hypact.

[ruby raven]

Yes and no

Some summons don't abide by their monster codex XD

Nor do we have an actual number on their stats given that as well

[signal oasis]

As it checks that there are summons and 45% wont guaranteed there will be a summon to kill for you to live anything.

[austere sedge]

current second chance is a joke

[signal oasis]

If second chance worked as intended it would be great but its "second chance IF" not second chance.

[austere sedge]

doesn't help

sacrifice all summon when you are dependent on it for everything is terrible

[signal oasis]

Im telling you guys tribute is the way.

I cant think of a better name. Maybe myrtar

[austere sedge]

if cr work right after your turn and right before your turn ammo shouldn't be a problem

[signal oasis]

If the ammo had functionality even better tho.

At first I had wild and exotic ah ideas but really if kept simple it really would enhance playability for the class.

[austere sedge]

fixing lack of ammo and increasing its functionality is different

[signal oasis]

^

[austere sedge]

I'm not against your idea

[signal oasis]

How does this not help

Sometimes functionality is all thats needed.

[austere sedge]

if you are not willing to understand my single point I can't do anything

[signal oasis]

I ran into this alot in D2 it dosent matter how busted a weapon is, the meta picks are ALWAYS the most consistent. If our summons themselves made our play consistent. We benifit entirely.

[ruby raven]

1. Idk where we are going to pull the already restricting spell slots out of for rotating multiple summons for sacrificed buffs XD

2. This only benefits Gsh, it's not like bb where it can benefit all 3 lines of beo ( also most classes in general ), sacrifice bonuses would only be used by GSH unfortunately, and that amount of coding and balance fixing would throw GSH into a complicated mess ( nearly what GSH with a pet did XD )

I'm not saying your idea is horrible or anything, that's just the state of the matters rn

Simple fixes is really all GSH needs not another overhaul system 😅

[signal oasis]

Much like how avidity only affects rs. Apex diety, flasks hera. Also no other classes actually gets the bb except with amity

Summons themselves having functionality is NOT a gsh overhaul

[ruby raven]

Amity, specialization, gears, all classes have access to BB, but summoner

[ruby raven]

If you don't think summons function rn, that's for a different thread XD

Atm this is more a GSH thing then what summons have to offer as generally for the GSH gameplay we already get a lot of free temp buffs on that note only need small tweaks for horde content

You're suggesting a huge summon overhaul for a very specific mechanic only GSH can make use of, and it would be a lot of time for a very niche situation and a LOT of balance needed if implemented

[signal oasis]

^

The problem with gsh is and ALWAYS has been consistency

[austere sedge]

your ideas don't fix gsh problems directly what you are suggesting isn't needed in this thread either make new thread or suggestion

[signal oasis]

Yall are just going to argue yourself into the ground. Because the answer literally isnt hypact its the consistency of hydrus itself which its never had.

Find out a way to make hydrus more consistent and you'll have your solution.

[signal oasis]

Also giving hydrus avidity dosent belong in thread either

Just fyi

[austere sedge]

it solves issues unlike your whole revamp idea

and I'm repeating again that I'm just using word avidity

it only give one turn sometimes unlike thief

[fathom kettle]

You can't possibly give smth avidity like thing to gsh, without making it too op in raids.

Its same issue with balancing rs, you buff it for raid and suddenly best dg class becomes even more op

You would have to nerf its single enemy dmg to maybe making it balanced (also it ain't happening, avidity is rs only and avidity like is bof/dof, no chance they make new items and change class just so we can have smth like that).

[austere sedge]

heretic have similar thing and deity too

it doesn't need have very high possibility of happening

also buffing cr rate or something else that fix ammo problem is fine too

[fathom kettle]

Heretic yes, however you need to use flask to get 1 turn. For deity you need to use apex which you get once per couple turns iirc. How would you make something like that in gsh?

[austere sedge]

low proc chance

getting additional turn in between 3 to 4 turns

and just 1 turn isn't that overpowered

[fathom kettle]

That 1 turn is op in raids

[austere sedge]

since you need to refill your ammo too

[austere sedge]

i belive i mentioned reducing single target damage potential in start

[fathom kettle]

That 1 turn would mean i can summon, making raid less likely to hit me, while giving me chance to hit another dmg cap.

[austere sedge]

it will become better in horde if it get the buff I'm talking about

[fathom kettle]

They need to fix bugs first, then make balances

[austere sedge]

it's not supposed to be good at raids but horde

[fathom kettle]

If they reduce single target dmg naw, it'll be completly useless spell

[austere sedge]

I'm waiting for that for months

[austere sedge]

more aoe damage less single target is bad?

also single target would still be more than horde split one

[fathom kettle]

No, it'll be be Naw

Untill they fix invisible summons and aoe of hypa

[austere sedge]

Still waiting for that

[wind osprey]

Being abel to wear thief gear does not make class a thief.

[cedar atlas]

Well he's stealing gear from another class

Thats a thief in my book

📖

[wind osprey]

My point is that classess with multiple gear choices does not mean that they should have collateral dmg and avidity etc also built in

[rapid panther]

GSH having thief is like Gursa having thief, the are squishier and more dmg focused than their counter parts

to capitalize on our second chance i had to put verse4 in my pvp loadout for example, in dungeons hypa is not the main dmg spell so you don't need summons if second chance procc to get out of a bad situation

[wind osprey]

Indeed. I dont think gsh needs avidity aswell. Bc thats rs identity

[fathom kettle]

I'd make 2nd chance act alot more(possibly even more than heretic) with hydrus passive

So 100% hydrus passive would give heretic like 2nd chance or more

[dusky ginkgo]

Personally I am fine with the 2nd chance we have. Blowing up your summons to charge your passive is not only similar to BeoH’s “second chance” but also charges our passive via the number of dead summons similar to Iconoclast or Demigod, etc

It sort of has the weakness of removing our ammo but that would imply that we should have at least something else to use aside from Hydrus Pact or just accept that an ability that gives almost every temp buff in the game while having insane penetration and high damage and providing some Ward turns probably should have some ebb and flow to its use (ammo)

With GSH’s magic stat, there isn’t much stopping someone from having a backup move equipped for content like PvP and for endless, it is what it is 😅

Without Hydrus Pact’s damage split behaving as expected, Despair and BL2 or even AV4 are plenty solid options to support the move in dungeons right now

A summon (a Hydra?) or gear potentially boosting CR is an interesting thought. I’m not sure I want more boost gear that then needs to be considered for every future balance or gear interaction but it’s interesting

Per consistency- this is not a unique thing to GSH. Maybe it is compared to GS and GSA but that’s part of relying on player power

If Gilgamesh had ways to constantly maintain temp buffs and health regeneration or got farming gear with higher ward/recovery so they could endless or got a new SS move that guaranteed hitting all enemies and could Crit, that would “solve” many of their issues

If Heretic got a way to tank all damage while firing off their massive hits or could hide behind ward while doing so and maintain DC permanently or have a way to spam Omniflask and Bloodray, that would “solve” many of their issues

If BeoH’s pet could be revived or came back automatically, that would “solve” many of their issues

If Deity had a way to access class passives even in lesser amounts, More offensive power or ways to ensure their temp buffs went up and stayed up forever (not just longer) that would solve many of their issues

If Realmshifter had more list is too long that would solve many of their issues

So of course GSH having indestructible, infinite ammo, a way to forever maintain temporary buffs, etc would “fix” the class issues

But classes having weaknesses and strengths for different play styles is part of the game. A class might be able to do everything across its 3 Celestials but when a class can do that at or near the top consistently is usually when it’s too strong not “good enough”

I know it’s been a minute but we’ve also been getting cool new event updates so I hope we can all (myself included) be patient to see what the outcome of HyPact split damage tweaks look like before asking for more. 🤩

IMO saying GSH is bad or inconsistent feels more like an approach issue than a class issue - which isn’t to say that I don’t want some tweaks too but tweaks aren’t huge overhauls

[final wagon]

With event gear GSA is dramatically better in dungeons

[crystal gulch]

riftfall is around the door, surely Odie cooked a bit for exactly that reason.

[signal oasis]

My fingers are crossed for adorns

Because actual cr armor is a very bad precedent

[crystal gulch]

I will pretend for the sake of this that apex adorns dont exist either.

[rapid panther]

The apex adorn gives only 1% no matter the quality, it's not that impactful as you think and for builds with the windtamer lance you would rather have mortars than apex adorns

[oak moss]

Thing is apex is a class-wide mechanic, that's the whole point we think if CR were to get buffs it needs to be incorporated into the class itself

Because having CR adorns or gear that just does nothing on other classes would be kind of dumb

[crystal gulch]

That's exactly my point.

[crystal girder]

you want auriga to have an auto-summon with weaker stats

?

[rapid panther]

No the point is it doesn't have much sense to introduce gear for an ability only 1 celestial from 1 class tree is able to use it

[signal oasis]

Iv found the answer

Charon adorn is currently useless

1% summon stats is a joke

Could easily just make it +1% cr

Because loosing armor slots for mage damage/ward. Noone would risk putting all slots as Charon adorns unless its a full glass cannon build.

Or even 1%summon stats & +1% CR the +1 means it GIVES 1% cr to other summoner classes. Since they are the only class with inherent summon stats.

Making it semi viable to run BP/Hypa base GS as youll have like a 5-15% chance at CR

[tardy trail]

It wouldn’t work on base GS

Same way you don’t get avidity or CD when using avidity or CD adorns on classes that aren’t gilga

[fathom kettle]

Gs is the BP class tho

[tardy trail]

You can only boost passives that you already have, so it would only work on GSH, if something

Since it’s the one that has the Charon Ritual passive

[signal oasis]

It could thought if they give gs &gsa CR 0

Then getting a +1% gives them 1% CR

Only siths deal in absolutes

[ruby raven]

Charon adorn isn't useless, it's 1% summon stats AND mana on it 🥀 it's also the only summon stat adorn till goats eye

[signal oasis]

1 summon stat is closer to 0 than 2% even at ornate its 1%

Iv never been able to waste slots on 1% summon stat slots better used on a ward adorn until goat eyes.

[ruby raven]

It's still 1%

1% on 10 adorns is 10%

Which still makes a difference plus 30 mana, 300 mana by the end of it

Charon souls are definitely worth it as a easy low budget summon stats adorn, crimson festival it can be painful to farm enough goat eyes for most

[signal oasis]

Does* this means your against cr bring added to it.

?

[ruby raven]

No I was just saying it wasn't useless as an Adorn, it shouldn't lose what it currently brings to the table

[signal oasis]

Because the means behind 2 seperate buffs to one adorn is definitely a thing.

They dont buff the sane thing plus gsh is a mana guzzler

So the mana buff instead of a negative is quite fitting.

[ruby raven]

Cr being on it would be cool at the same time, it only effects GSH 😅 and may be seen as problematic

That's just a problem with GSH in general ig, since it's passives are very different then the other lines, it's bound to get exclusive gear that only effects it cause the other lines play drastically different ig 🤔 which isn't normal amongst other classes and their celestials ( like how, collat/apex/flask work ect )

[signal oasis]

Not nessicarily I think its mororless on par with diety rework.

[ruby raven]

As long as charons soul keeps mana and summon stats I'm cool with it

[signal oasis]

Only they charge apex for breathing

[signal oasis]

Or are you saying gsh compared play w other summoner clases

[ruby raven]

Apex works for all lines of deity
Collat works for all lines of gilga
Mana flasks work for all lines of hera

Gsh is in awkward spot because CR only effects it, no ascended summons makes summon stats nearly irrelevant to it

Making exclusive gear or adorns for a celestial class feels generally wrong and maybe seen as tedious 🤔

But that's just a problem with gsh^

[signal oasis]

Thats why tacking it onto charon adorn makes the most sense. Its literally charons ritual why shouldn't charon adornment not be updated for this.

Also removes the horrible idea of putting it on actual gear.

The buffs gsh needs on actual gear is pact damage and double summon chance.

Or something like this:

bla bla bla armor head gear
Oversoul , 2% chance to double cast pacts/summons per stack of hydrus (10% at full stacks, is treated as sequencer's roll if on sequencer spec. You dont get 4 seperate stacks)

Bla bla armor chest peice
heart and soul, drains 1% hp and restores ward by hp lost. Per stack of hydrus

Bla bla armor leg
under soul rolls CR for each summon individually draining mp each successful summon

[austere sedge]

it's about to be 2 months now

[feral violet]

Hey y'all. With the current rift, I am getting pretty annoyed with despair spamming raids (other aoes are bad but not as much). GSA is damaged a lot by it (even high al summons still get eroded by it as time goes). Instead GSH looses summons to it like nothing. I don't believe there is a content that nulls all incarnations of any other class this easily. What's your take on this? Any suggestions?

I was thinking to propose to move auto summon to the beginning of the turn. This would also avoid those situations in which you summon fodder and the game procs autosummon, wasting most. The bad thing about this is that it would nerf the second chance which is usually helped by summons popping up to protect you at the end of turn. Personally I still would prefer having them at start..

[dusky ginkgo]

I think most would say don’t GSH

I’ve been experimenting with the gear from last month for double summons and using buff duration to tank stuff and use despair myself to some solid success but it is a rougher go on those first few floors of anguish

Tankier summons and always emptying your summons on the prior floor helps too

Though there are definitely enemies and bosses that torch other classes pretty handily

[final wagon]

gsh raiding has serious problems vs aoe raids yes, and some problems vs raids that summon (because our damage is very reduced vs multiple targets, more than it should). That just means you are supposed to deal with those raids with GS ultima quickcast like in the old days, or BP is you are high AL

other classes have other problems with specific raids

like the raids immune to all ASG attacks lol

or the raids that require you to run confuse immunity (headless), some builds can't touch any piece without collapsing in damage, while gsh can very easily without too much of a cost in damage

[feral violet]

And that is what I do, or summons but with pathetic GS/GSA defences at a point (not even that high up) despair does quite substantial damage, others have none such thing

[feral violet]

Other classes yeah, but a raid that nerfs all classes of a branch?

[final wagon]

despair in particular (scrugg) is a nightmare for us

at al 220 i still had insane problems with those i summoned at agony 43 (with festives). Had to attack each of them multiple times with arcane resistance amity, dying all the time

[final wagon]

summons is inherently different from all other classes. That causes some content to be spectacularly GOOD for us, some other spectacularly bad

it's a feature of the classline

like no other class even comes close to what we can do wearing a single celestial weapon with 5x horde augments, or 5x shard augments, except BeoA which still has more problems than us with those builds

also, we are far better than anyone else at "screenshotting" stats in dungeons

so we have to accept that we fold spectacularly badly in some occasions as well

[earnest mulch]

They get rid of that awful version of second chance that leaves you naked and defenseless yet?

[unique shuttle]

No

[austere sedge]

no updates it's been 2 months ig

[signal oasis]

I mean iv just been BL2 because thats the only reliable spell GSH has.

So new dungeons arnt so bad. But raids spaming aoe is definitely rough

For reference, I use raider with berzerk III crit heal, & 2 rubies. Probably crit harder on oracle and two 40% but zerk snotra w all magic buffs i can cast works pretty well for me.

[bronze relic]

damn thank god i can finally not use chain chance cus cr rate still sucks and will not be impactful in my dgns

not even sustainable to make it work even in tower 🤣

[vocal leaf]

25mins in live is certainly not enough time to determine exactly how viable the changes are - let's give the ORN + co some time to figure out the impact of these changes

[austere sedge]

hmm new changes

I'm happy

atleast we are getting something

[unique shuttle]

It isn't perfect but it's nice to have this as an option. Realistically there isn't a lot we can do with that but it would be nice to play around with cc before jumping to conclusions

[rapid panther]

Damn no fantasy, I'm already readorning my windtamer lance to have a 32% chain dmg set up

[austere sedge]

tell me result 👀

[rapid panther]

I mean, 7k mag shouldn't be that bad

But I have bad internet atm to test

[austere sedge]

atleast gsh isn't forgotten and there is still hope even if cc is useless

[rapid panther]

Split dmg "bug" is still here tho

[austere sedge]

tho i hope cc becomes useful after some work

[austere sedge]

bruh

i really have a question

is split damage actually a bug

or it's intended

[rapid panther]

https://tenor.com/view/elmo-shrug-who-knows-gif-12648964

I don't recall Odie addressing it

[austere sedge]

i really wish that devs tell us

because bug lasting for that long isn't something I've seen very often

[fathom kettle]

Very sorry for tag but could you tell us? Is the dmg split suppose to be like that or is it bug?

[unique shuttle]

Not a bug

[rapid panther]

Honestly I would prefer it not being split at all and have a lower m1, but that would quite affect raiding woth the skill

[unique shuttle]

It's supposed to act like this because of its formula

It doesn't exactly split damage like arrowstorm does per se

[austere sedge]

so there is no saving for hypa

[rapid panther]

Hence the " ", still I don't think it's intended since it was supposed to be an horde tool and it hindering said play mode

[unique shuttle]

The damage of hypa isn't the issue

[rapid panther]

The formula seems to over split dmg with multiple enemies

[austere sedge]

hmm I'm not very sure about that

[fathom kettle]

For raids tho. Hypa is quite unusable for higher mel dgs.

[rapid panther]

On single enemy no, but going from 500k to 100k-ish feels very bad

[austere sedge]

in raid True

but horde

[unique shuttle]

I hope I don't get hit on the head if I'm not supposed to share this

[fathom kettle]

Atleast i never actually seen vid or someone doing even mid mel dgs with gsh

[unique shuttle]

Does it just feel bad or is it actually not enough damage in hordes?

[unique shuttle]

Define mid mel

[fathom kettle]

20+-

[rapid panther]

Sometimes both

[fathom kettle]

For me that's mid mel

[rapid panther]

Kind of depends on the enemy

[austere sedge]

usually bosses

mammon and arisen ones

[rapid panther]

If I have all t mags fade i sometimes not one tap things like faleen rs

[unique shuttle]

Tbf, isn't mammon a point of struggle for many classes?

[austere sedge]

and arisen ones

mammoth is fine

[rapid panther]

A Mammon is not that much of a problem honestly, I usually have enough defenses

[austere sedge]

and gods are another thing

[rapid panther]

Gods too don't hit strong enough

[austere sedge]

and if you use hypa and enemy don't die and you get extra turn you are cooked

[fathom kettle]

Im gonna be fr, hypa is only good for low al at raids and at specific raids. Gsa is the horde.

[rapid panther]

But things like zagreus, fallen classes

[austere sedge]

my glass cannon is dying with sneeze

[rapid panther]

Don't really agree with that, kinda depends on the build, I use 2h builds and never really have problems hitting cap and doing stronger raids (agony11 shackled)

[fathom kettle]

That's what i mean.

Low al + specific raids, bp is better for alot lower hp ones. And if we duo then its gsa again.

[rapid panther]

Don't use glass cannon

[austere sedge]

I'm dying anyway

[rapid panther]

Bruh farm the gear

[austere sedge]

too much work for underpowered class

that feels unfinished

i rather work for status Gear

oh those things aren't common

[rapid panther]

Farm with gsa until you get what you nees

[austere sedge]

because community hate it

[austere sedge]

too much work

[fathom kettle]

Farm towers with gsa, dgs with gsa, despair? No summoner class can do good despair and gsh/gs for raids

[rapid panther]

Not really, especially with last events updates

Panda kinda stomps despair

Towers i find myself going way faster on gsh

[fathom kettle]

Gsa is simply superior in horde by far, since ability to have tshard cele augment build and salmon dg build.

[unique shuttle]

What despair are you?

[fathom kettle]

Low despair yes, can panda out fs you then do 100k+?

[rapid panther]

Still 5 cause I'm lazy

[rapid panther]

If fs is the problem you can easily solve it with goat hood

[austere sedge]

damn that's high

[unique shuttle]

You always act first in despair

[rapid panther]

I was answering to The

[fathom kettle]

Less tshards and less safe than gsa, also slower

Gsh is raiding class, not horde at all.

My point is why is the dmg calc like that? It should be like arrowstorm imo

[unique shuttle]

@fathom kettle

[rapid panther]

You can use swansong and it quit e safer

[rapid panther]

By agree on that

[unique shuttle]

Why'd you use swansong

[final wagon]

Actually no

[rapid panther]

Hit all elemntless

[fathom kettle]

With every class(i think? Idk about gilga) being able to easily do full aoe wirh more dmg, what's the point in using gsh in horde?

[final wagon]

No fs in despair solo

[unique shuttle]

Bl2 exists

[rapid panther]

On harder encounters you kinda want the sexond chance

[rapid panther]

Higher m1

[unique shuttle]

Is it? Swansong is hybrid and gsh has no innate attack

[final wagon]

With gsa really good at horde (except for carry)

[fathom kettle]

If hypa acted like arrowstorm, it would def be alot better at horde(still not op or broken).

[austere sedge]

btw I'm surprised that nobody hate chain chance when it's thief thing but something that may give one more turn and dodge are thief property and shouldn't be adapted in a class that is part thief

[unique shuttle]

Since when chain chance is a thief thing?

[fathom kettle]

Yup ik, that's why im wondering why is gsh called horde class while gsa being alot better at everything. And why the dmg split calc isn't like arrowstorm.

[final wagon]

I never played chain chance, how does it work

[austere sedge]

i usually see chain chance in thief gear

[final wagon]

Gsh far better at raiding

[unique shuttle]

You get % chance to hit one more enemy

[austere sedge]

and cc fit in thief identity

[unique shuttle]

Yet highest cc gear is warrior one 😹

[final wagon]

Ah ok then it isn't a thief thing lol

[austere sedge]

hmm i see

[final wagon]

It's in chained shield, av2, crest items

[rapid panther]

Fomoria summer is warrior gear and has the highest chain chance

[austere sedge]

i was wrong it's just that i usually see chain chance in thief gear and it matches identity

[final wagon]

I think you are confusing with the crit chain

[unique shuttle]

Literally the only exclusive gear to thief is swashbuckler jacket

[austere sedge]

that rift thief weapon

dual sword or something

[rapid panther]

Which I wish I got a decent one for my build to reach 37% chain chance

[rapid panther]

Thats crit chain

[final wagon]

That's CRIT chain

[austere sedge]

oh

[unique shuttle]

🤦‍♀️

[austere sedge]

I'm dum🫣

[final wagon]

Crit chain: the more you keep criting the more buffs

[rapid panther]

Up to 100%

[austere sedge]

👍

[unique shuttle]

If you are unhappy with hypa, don't just say that hypa sucks. Point out what exactly is bad and how we can improve it

[fathom kettle]

I find the dmg split bad, unlike other classes who can do over 100k+ full aoe first turn, we can only do 2 targets with less dmg.