2025 H2 Heretic Discussion

[snow stag]

but preserves the status quouo that was barely just beginning to be shaken

[simple glacier]

Ah. There

[green swift]

SS’s nerf feels inadequate from the perspective of still behind a huge wall of ward and reasonable defense and dealing as much or more than an all in glass cannon magic scythe

[royal jewel]

Make SS Gilga only, easy

[digital flower]

Id love to discuss deeper but since im an iOS user, I can’t test myself. From what I’ve gathered the m1 nerf will be noticeable.

[digital flower]

Just wanna note that SS is also the only option for 2/3 gilga classes. Other classes got nerfed too, I’ll have to wait for testing

[simple glacier]

There’s people that say so. And there’s people that say it won’t be. In any case, it will still be enough to one shot most classes on a massive wall of defense. And only ranger spec needed

[simple glacier]

So is blood ray currently.

But only for 1

[royal jewel]

No yeah, I just find it pretty funny because everything would be a lot more balanced if only Gilga could use SS

[green swift]

I’m going to push on this. It is the “only option” that reliably one shots another ward based build.

Heretic and GS and Realm have woefully inadequate defensive options and a GS4 or Horizontal Slash should more than kill them - especially if tailored for the attack instead of just SS

[digital flower]

After the SS rework, Hybrid DMG seems to be the deeper concern. I’ll have to wait how it turns out

[simple glacier]

Yeah. People want to disguise it as problems being addressed. But it’s still there. We just want more fixes before giving up on blood ray

[simple glacier]

Exactly. Why aren’t people more focused on this? Miss chance? Luke I’ve said, parapet is 25 chance and SC is 50.

Someone smarter than me, when you have 25% and 50%, what actual % is it for either to proc?

[digital flower]

Higher chance on lower hp value

Parapet stacking is quite good

Ah nvmnd misunderstood

Thought amity stacking

[simple glacier]

No. Just SC and parapet

Idk how to do that math

[royal jewel]

62.5%

For at least one of those two happening

[agile bane]

max chance for 95%/100% amity is 20% at most

[royal jewel]

But ymir/yel cuirass give 25%

[wise crow]

Ok, let's bring the painful talks. Could we allow bloodray be blocked by pets?

[agile bane]

No

[simple glacier]

For us.

[wise crow]

Let's hash that out, why

[simple glacier]

62.5% to have it not be a one shot. I don’t think it’s broken.

[wise crow]

That is for classes with second chance and that have a parapet effect, yes

[simple glacier]

Other no SC classes will have more problems. But that’s every no second chance class

By this point, it’s mostly everyone. Balancing the skill for that reason is silly. For the people that don’t have SC or parapet

[wise crow]

I mean, it's not just "that reason". It's the fact that bloodray reinforces the turn 1 meta in a very unhealthy way, similarly to how ss has reinforced it.

Every class without second chance is at a massive disadvantage

[simple glacier]

Reason is, I think the investment is good enough. It’s an “expensive” build with slots. That can only try once.

[simple glacier]

They all do. BeoH is a walking one shot. That’s not a heretic problem. Giving that up means we go back to where we were for 2 years. One shot meta won’t change without a big over haul.

[trail onyx]

That’s exactly what I proposed

[simple glacier]

Until it does, I think 62.5% chance is good enough

[green swift]

Not in PvE

F fallen Beos

[simple glacier]

I would agree with this. Except deity makes it so difficult to be ok with. That’s on the PvP side. PvE is a whole other problem that will blow up

Gear choices man.

[wise crow]

Spiked shield has been the main offender because it couldn't miss and dealt high damage and had high pen (and is tanky so everyone must run high damage).

Bloodray can't miss and deals high damage and has high pen and can't be blocked by pets.

V4 or whatever beos would use would deal high damage and have high pen. Less of an offendor

[austere token]

i would even say, second chance should be looked at, sometimes it feels like 3 4 chances instead of just second

but that is a different topic

[simple glacier]

It was just an example. The thing with beo is the hybrid. Same with deity, but add high stats.

They can use any skill

The problem is out of all those classes, only one can’t defend. And the other 2 that can’t are in the gutter

[wise crow]

Yeah but those aren't really the issue we are discussing. It's not just the fact that bloodray can deal a million damage turn 1 with a god-tier amity or high ALs, it's that it has all of those other factors as well. Something has to give

[wise crow]

Out of all the factors bloodray has going for it, pet block is what I'm least attached to. I could see manaray becoming the anti-petblock version and bloodray being the crit nuke version

[simple glacier]

Again. I don’t understand why it HAS to give. 62.5 and no pet block in exchange for being full glass cannon with no second chance or SF

Seems extremely fair.

Just get the offensive classes on par

[trail onyx]

62.5 only applies to half the classes, and is lower than what any other class deals with on offense

[simple glacier]

Perfect. They get to defend. Not everyone will run H.Corvus. Realm should get buffed and so should Gas hydrus. The insane ward of Gilga, stats of deity and Jord of beo, should be countered by the other classes

62.5 is pretty high. Like really really high.

[trail onyx]

What % of attacks should a AL 60 heretic be expected to win against me, a 170AL Gilga? As in, what number do you think would be fair and make sense to try to balance the game around

Because, right now, that number is around 80% if the heretic is running manaflask build

Because second chance doesn’t matter when you’re left at 0 ward

[simple glacier]

Trick question. What build you running? Max your HP, use your boosts.

Another question for you: did you take the settlements back?

[trail onyx]

150k hp. Can make it to 170k but the end result is the same.
I could care less about my settlements, my main concern is war defense

[green swift]

Yeah it does - hit them with anything and poof goes the Heretic. SS3 might be the only thing that Gilgas can use against other ward builds but a GS4, Horizontal Slash III or really most t10 attacks will easily dish out the 20-50k needed to kill a Heretic, the average Realm, and almost certainly a GS

[wise crow]

Bone mammoth says hi. Now the heretic is at 0 flask charge and naked

[trail onyx]

Bone mammoth only acts after I act and is unreliable act rate wise. So I still wouldn’t be able to clap back

[wise crow]

Until the following turn, sitting behind 100% ward absorb and 50% ward against an unarmed stick

[green swift]

Then use literally anything else and watch the 0 def Heretic with 22k HP die

[trail onyx]

The heretic I tested with has 40k hp+, so would still need to hit 80k, which those skills can’t hit unless I’m running BoF (which kinda lowers survivability in and of itself)

[green swift]

Higher than 50%. Because punching up was supposed to be part of why PvP is what it is - is this not the case anymore?

[simple glacier]

But in asking about those. You said 80%. I assume it’s settlements. Because in war, 62.5 is decent. But in areas it’s the repetition aspect. If you lost those in settlements, did you take them back? Cause I’m pretty sure that on the right build, losses aren’t that bad.

World be about…40% of the total settlements hit.

[trail onyx]

In wars, 50%+ means I might as well not invest in my PvP build. What’s the point if I’m supposed to lose more than half the fights?

[simple glacier]

Idk. At that AL difference I don’t think 40k is a problem. That’s about my hp

[trail onyx]

I can’t test right now because I’m waiting to be attacked in a war, but I don’t think my gilga can hit for 80k with Gs4 or HS3 (unless I max crit, but then I’m not running a SS build to start with 😅)

[simple glacier]

That’s a different problem. That’s your expectation. In reality it’s not a bad %. Should we decide a spell gets nerfed or not just so high ALs can continue stomping everyone? It’s not 100% they win. It’s at most 38. If build right

[trail onyx]

That just gets us the old AL discussion, which the community has voted on more than once. I get people disagree with it, but the devs need to guide themselves by what the community voted for

[simple glacier]

Kind of. It’s close. But I don’t think it’s the same. Cause 38% seems too high for a high AL to lose to. Like it should be 100% win rate.

That’s what it is. Just high ALs losing? Please don’t do this to me lol

[trail onyx]

I’m just trying to re-contextualize the situation and try to understand your PoV

My personal opinion, losing 1 out of every 3 fights against someone 100AL+ lower than me definitely feels excessive. But that’s from the perspective of someone who plays with the #1 goal of losing as little war fights as possible.
I’m not bothered when I lose to people with smart builds that catch me off guard, or to players that have grinded hard for a strong setup.
But the idea that anyone can GF a set of gear and instantly get a big multiplier to a turn 1 skill and one shot me just because of that doesn’t feel right. Especially when my only alternative in that scenario is running parapet and praying

[simple glacier]

Then please do. It’s not just that heretic. We’ve all have had problems against these builds. On PvP. This is our out. If it’s gonna be taken, it needs to be replaced. I’m no slouch. And I’m telling you it’s crazy difficult. When’s the last time other heretics fought and won against you?

[trail onyx]

But this is my personal perspective, and far from being the only issue with bloodray

[trail onyx]

I agree with that sentiment. Heretic needs something else PvP wise. Whether that’s higher defenses, other defensive tools, or alternative offensive skills. The current solution is just too overpowering and leaves no room for counterplay.

That creates a scenario where no one is having fun. Other classes get mad because they can’t do anything to increase their chances, and heretics fall in the “SS pit” of being forced to build towards one singular skill

[wise crow]

For what it's worth, it's still a risky build. I often don't use it in kd wars if the opponent has second chance and I think I can try something else

And as was mentioned it's nil on defense so it's not just one build and have nothing else to do

It's a specific build for specific classes or instances, but the high damage makes it apply to a lot more situations than it should IMO

[simple glacier]

Bah. Y’all had fun for 2 years. Suffer a bit.

If you agree then please state it like that. “Blood ray is too much, but heretics need a way to punch through the ward and defenses”. That would help. Just don’t talk about being advocates if we’re not gonna try to fix the issue. That’s the reason why we’re getting loud. You just have to believe it. We really have no other choices. We will continue to be loud until everyone understands that we need another choice. I just wish realms got as loud instead of vanishing into nothingness

[trail onyx]

“Bah. Y’all had fun for 2 years. Suffer a bit.”
This is the kind of argument I can’t agree with and that honestly leaves a sour taste in my mouth in this conversation.
SS users are actively trying to get the skill changed, and have been for a while. The fact that NF hasn’t been able to nail that isn’t on the players

[trail onyx]

Regarding the second part, I said that exactly 2min ago ^

[simple glacier]

Lol. I’m tired.

[wise crow]

By the way - if the solution ends up being removing its turn 1 use, please at least let it be usable at 75% instead of 100% charge.

Can we remake the poll as multiple choice like this btw? @open dagger

How would you prefer Bloodray to be balanced in PvP? Select your top two choices only.

A) Prevent turn 1 usage
B) Reduce Flask Power Effectiveness
C) Reduce overall damage and penetration
D) Remove 100% Accuracy
E) Allow it to be blocked by pets

[open dagger]

if you can find three other people that are happy with it, yeah. i'm not looking to remake polls daily

[simple glacier]

I think there are people that prefer to see it stay the same for now…like damn. iPhone users can’t even test. What’s the rush

[green swift]

F) Leave alone until SS is balanced?

[simple glacier]

It’s what I’ve been saying. We’ve been waiting for years. I don’t think that anything will be fixed post patch. I don’t want to go back to the spot we were in.

I just think we’re getting to voting without even having a chance to test anything. It would be good to have a chance to test everything at AL 0

[wise crow]

I'll give it a try I guess once I get a mirror

[simple glacier]

I haven’t seen any screen shots of blood ray in beta

I asked for the mirror. But now I’m. It even sure if I want to.

[wise crow]

Alright let's not doompost when we're getting some nice toys to play with 😂 I am excited about mana feather and hopeful that bloodray will be usable in pvp after "adjustments"

Manaseep, mana feather, flasks of corvus in endless are sweet upgrades. If we can get crit poise to only apply to debuffs even better

[austere token]

I'm excited about the Mana Feather for endless ngl

[green swift]

I also look forward to FoC for endless

More Bloodflask charging

Might even be worth adding those Beguiled Shoes back in

See how fast I can charge em

[echo trout]

Manaseep + Mana Feather + Flasks is a good combination; I can keep my mana low while cycling Flasks + Gale Seal 3.

[wise crow]

Select your top two choices only: How would you prefer Bloodray to be balanced in PvP?

A) Prevent turn 1 usage
B) Reduce Flask Power Effectiveness
C) Reduce base damage and penetration
D) Allow it to miss
E) Allow it to be blocked by pets
F) Wait until the next patch to adjust

Vote on if this sounds like a good poll

And say what you'd prefer if not

[trail onyx]

I’d rather see the poll without the last option. Pretty much everyone admits the skill is problematic. Delaying it just moves the SS complaints to bloodray. I know heretics want to have a period of dominance, but perpetuating the problem isn’t the answer here

[wise crow]

Less about having a period of dominance, more about allowing the meta to adjust to ss changes and seeing what happens then. I don't expect that option will gain many votes anyway, but it would be a helpful data point to gather IMO

Even the spiked shield poll had an option to leave as is

Heretics that do want it to stay as is for now can still select their second top choice

[trail onyx]

Technically the leave as is in that poll was only polling one additional nerf, and already included the ones in this beta patch by default

But sure, let’s poll it, that’s the important part

[wise crow]

Should we ask for voting on up to two or three options?

[trail onyx]

I’d say 2, 3 will probably muddy it up too much

[snow stag]

Can we have the "allow it to miss" part be changed to "give it 5% fixed miss chance"?

I would vote on that, even if it is bundled with allow pets to block it

as in, works the same way as SS

[trail onyx]

We just voted to remove that from SS, doesn’t make much sense to vote to include that in another skill that’s already seen as problematic imo

[wise crow]

What's the accuracy you'd want to see on it then

[trail onyx]

Just be a regular skill

Making it 95% instead of 100% doesn’t solve much, one piece of gear or one amity bonus already pushes it to the max

[snow stag]

I know you feel like that poll was enough, but it wasn't.
Not everyone was there to see it and it is now buried under a lot of messages. It is now closed. There's no guarantee the devs are taking that one into account.

It has to be an official poll

[wise crow]

#1437527716634296400 message

[trail onyx]

Community sentiment is pretty clear on it. Would be counterproductive to poll the exact opposite idea. Official poll or not, we’re gathering community sentiment here, that’s what matters

[snow stag]

Got it. Thanks for keeping me honest. And I am sorry I didn't see that before saying it wasn't official.

[trail onyx]

Oh, hadn’t even noticed that

[wise crow]

I'm not really sure this is reasonable

[snow stag]

Delving now into the "feelings" territory, I fear that it will be much easier a decision for the studio to nerf Bloodray than it is to remove fixed miss chance from SS.
By sheer numbers, one decision will anger more people than the other.

[trail onyx]

What’s the suggestion then?

[snow stag]

I can see a scenario where SS is left as is right now, and Bloodray gets nerfed in whichever one of the ways stated here.

Heretic doesn't usually get a "let's see what happens" adjustment period

[trail onyx]

There’s no way that happens imo. Even the gilgas are asking for SS nerfs

[wise crow]

Well, the poll is left open-ended for a reason

[snow stag]

SS already has gotten... I don't even know how many. At least 3?

[wise crow]

"Allow it to miss"

I definitely would not wanna word that as "Remove all fixed accuracy"

[snow stag]

Allow me to clarify. When I say "as is right now", I mean with the changes currently in the Beta

[trail onyx]

I still don’t think that’ll happen. Not many people still defend FMC on SS

[snow stag]

I've gone out into the weeds with that comment anyhow.

What I do know for sure is that it is far easier to nerf Heretic than it is to nerf SS

Far fewer people will be upset

By at least one or two orders of magnitude

Well, probably just one

Seen the other way - a lot more people will be happy if Bloodray is nerfed than people will be angry if fixed miss chance is removed from SS

But that is because we are underrepresented

[polar sun]

I'm against this solution. This would ruin its best pve applications

[wise crow]

What would be your top choices Zach

[trail onyx]

Could be a PvP only change. I’ve proposed that to not interfere with PvE effectiveness

[polar sun]

Full flask charge is my personal choice of the proposed changes to it

[trail onyx]

I’m not opposed to that one. Need to really ponder everything that’s been said to figure out which one I’d really rather see

[wise crow]

Making it a turn 2 skill just kinda makes it nearly irrelevant in pvp IMO

[trail onyx]

Does it really? Drop a piece of gear to pump ward up, hit a buff or WoO turn 1, while still having parapet/pet block/dodge chance to increase survivability. If one of those works, you nuke them turn 2. Seems pretty in line with the high risk/high reward mantra of glass cannon classes like heretic and RS

[polar sun]

If you buff or ward, you're not bloodflasking turn 2

You need to hit to charge flask

[trail onyx]

The flask is already charged on turn 1 though

[polar sun]

No it's not

[wise crow]

50%

[trail onyx]

50% has been shown to be more than enough one shot damage by everyone testing it 😅

[wise crow]

You need to use an elemental spell, it can miss and still charges

[wise crow]

The fix is not "arbitrarily lock it out on turn 1", it's "require a full charge"

[polar sun]

I could have worded better. You need to attack turn 1

[wise crow]

Or at least 75% IMO, no reason to require 100%

[trail onyx]

Nevermind, you’re right. I was mixing it up with the solution I proposed of disabling flasks turn 1

[wise crow]

I did make that part of my suggested poll a little more vague because it's the intent that matters

[trail onyx]

Whatever accuracy change is proposed, I think it’d make sense to poll it as a PvP only change, since that seems to be an important component of the skill in PvE

[polar sun]

I'd say making it not turn 1 is the easiest solution that won't mess with future gear and cause more complaints. If it's disabled turn 1, or full flask required, I think I'd prefer disabled so it's more usable turn 2

[wise crow]

Yeah, I would also prefer disabled turn 1 pvp instead of a full charge required - but it's still a nearly impossible skill to use effectively at that point

It completely removes the advantage of a glass cannon build - hitting them first

So now you must build defensively (which heretic sucks at) and lose the cannon

[polar sun]

I'd have to test my builds against new SS and other builds (waiting for beta character) before I can say how bad it is

[carmine glacier]

Would the turn 1 disable only apply to BoF?

[snow stag]

Bloodray is the way it is because of how much we lamented having the frame of the glass cannon without any of its alleged destructive power

And this is still correct

Take that away, leave us using only skills, and everything we can do, a deity does better

Now BeoH too

As a challenge, please try to come up with one build in which turn 1 bloodray is not usable, and tell me how this Heretic did something Deity and Beo can't one-up

pet block? Parapet? Second chance? Dex? raw stats?

we have NONE of that

We would have turn 1 Ara's edge to get into Mana Feather range

If SS continues to have fixed miss chance, then we have nothing at all

It is easy to forget how abyssmal Hera's raw stats are

So I'd like to remind you of it here

[trail onyx]

If mana feather works like mystic feather, it would still allow you to dodge SS

[polar sun]

Ara's edge sucks for pvp defense

[snow stag]

Well, this is a given because Bloodray sucks even more XD

[trail onyx]

So aras edge into the flask seems like a pretty good plan actually. Paired with pet protect, parapet etc

[snow stag]

For offense?

[trail onyx]

Yes

[polar sun]

It's useless for defense, it spams it way too often. Drains all your mana for no dmg

[wise crow]

We can't really ara's edge very effectively at anything "low" AL

[snow stag]

It's not bad, but it looks terrible in comparison to guaranteed turn 1 OHKO from SS

Turn 2, our enemy probably already used WoO as well

[trail onyx]

Bloodray isn’t really an issue on defense anyway, doesn’t the AI not use it unless the flask is full anyway?

[snow stag]

So now that 700k damage we are all so upset about is not enough to defeat a moderate AL person with a SS build

[trail onyx]

Which is why SS needs the change to accuracy as well

Pair that with mana feather and suddenly that SS is having a hard time hitting you

[polar sun]

Correct. Corvus as a whole is just bad for defense really

[wise crow]

Ara's Edge also doesn't charge flasks

[snow stag]

if we assume mana feather does work as mystic feather and we know we'll have 20% of our mana left, how much evasion is that?

Tangentially related. I want to both know how good the strat will be (which, again, I think it will be good to amazing in the right context) and how likely it is we make it to turn 3

in case of parapet, pet protect, second chance, etc

Because we also only get 1 ara's edge BTW hahaha

And mana does get consumed on a parapet proc (crazy right? I think so, but I disgress)

If we are using parapet, we have a 20% compounded with mana feather's dodge chance, and a small amount of pet protect (up to 8).
In exchange we've lost 40% of blood ray's damage.

We also cannot simultaneously have a large mana pool and the ability to crit AND deal good damage with blood ray

So ara's edge damage will not be 0 but it is not going to be substantial enough for us to assume we can kill most enemies

• Ara's edge M1 is low. Not sure exactly what the number is but it is not hard to 0 it out

So, a few scenarios come to mind:

• We are facing a spiked shield user with second chance. We have x% chance of getting through protect, miss, second chance, parapet. X is likely low.
• We are facing a user of any other OHKO skill. Probably same as the above with lower damage threshold for us to beat but same chances to get through.
• We are facing someone who uses WoO and has a good (think 100k or so) ward pool. We lose every time.

In that sense, mission accomplished! Bloodray has definite counterplay.

But the above are all things everyone is kind of already doing by default?

Nothing new was done to counter bloodray. We are just now losing against the most common PvP strategies

[carmine glacier]

Something I think that's left out of the convo is that even if SS miss is adjusted, if you can sit behind huge ward + regen, you have tons of attempts before you die. Also, Corv is losing SF which allows defensive play + crowd control

[simple glacier]

Blood ray wasn’t even part of the patch.

[snow stag]

We have been mentioning it less, yes. It has been mentioned though that we "accepted" during the class rework we are glass cannons and so it is "understood" we are going to have to go through extreme lengths to win on defense

[carmine glacier]

And it's available on 1/18th of all endgame classes

[snow stag]

But that is why MW has been saying they are tired of conceding to reasonable arguments when we see time and again that the reasonable thing is pushed back against in other places, and then compromises are made

We aren't being offered such compromises

When we aren't being told "Bloodray has to be nerfed, period", we are bieng told "Bloodray has to be nerfed, and so do these other things, including SS"

But we are being asked to trust that if Bloodray is "fixed", Spiked Shield will be as well

Trust on that promise has wore so thin it is basically transparent

In no small part because we already can see the changes in beta and know for a fact SS still has enough fire power to one-shot most people. Even in non-gilga classes.

[simple glacier]

Yup. Waiting won’t kill anyone. And will let Odie make more informed decisions. Cause blood ray is NEEDED. A glass cannon that can actually hit hard. And it’s still very very new. Implemented for a reason.

Just let the Meta settle. Then we can go from there

Deal with the old issues first. Both ss3 and hybrid have been out of control for a long time in the PvP world. GS isn’t even in the picture. And realm is dead.

[wise crow]

Do y'all like this poll, and do you think we should ask the poll to be remade

[simple glacier]

I said earlier I don’t wanna vote until iOS beta comes out. Why would I wanna vote on something I can’t see or test? All I know is that blood ray is not part of the patch.

[snow stag]

I like that the option to not change is given. Even if, as you say, it is unlikely to be voted on by many people and is thus mostly symbolic.
I understand why you are leaving things open ended but I think that is to our detriment. The specifics will likely be defined by majority's voice. We cannot ever be the majority. If we don't at least try to sway the direction in which this boat is going, it will go against us.

[simple glacier]

For the identity patch we started voting early. And people were already talking about how things needed to be fixed. In fact, iirc, by the time iOS beta dropped, there had already been changes

[wise crow]

Nah the specifics will be left up to the studio, as it always is. The polls aren't even guarantees of anything

[snow stag]

You are right. Defined was overly constraining and straight up not true.
But I think it is fair to say it will be influenced by the voice of the majority.

[bold vine]

patch notes for Heretic are pinned in this thread, btw

[simple glacier]

Thanks. And yeah they’re just what I thought they’d be.

Yeah. People need to chill and be patient.

It’s not like BM that affected several points of gameplay. BR is literally only PvP offense. And it’s not even that oppressive. It’s just really strong.

Lol. This thread is the second one with most messages after the general one. And the topic isn’t even related to the patch

[bold vine]

I'll say this on a personal side, and not as a proponent of ORN or anything:

I've noticed that a lot of beta discussion in prior and current betas just revolves around "well if we're addressing [buffing/nerfing] this, then we should be addressing this other thing too" - as a result, there ends up being extensive discussion of that second thing that ends up being "abstract", or not really anchored in any patch notes in beta so far, and not as much discussion about the stuff that the beta's all about.

There's probably less messages about the beta itself than about Blood-ray here, which is awesome news about the beta changes! (less people worried about it, we know the pain points of it already) But to an ORN member or a NF member trying to parse through everything in each thread, it makes things muddied and hard to progress with solutions that are appropriate to the topics at hand, which should be the stuff in the H2 notes. Better to get those polished and out the door first, imho. Stack all the proposed additions NF gives with all the additional pain points players point out and it's essentially adding to the "to do" rather than knocking it out.

Don't get me wrong - I know Blood-ray needs adjusted. I know that it needs special attention so as to not become the new Spiked Shield, but we should differentiate discussion between problematic things and discussion between current beta things. We've identified that there's a problem, and highlighted possible solutions, but since there's no current beta change to work off of, I see a lot more disparate solutions, and a lot more... arguments rather than discussions. Compare that to the stuff currently being tested, and I'd say just about everyone's in agreement. We can't get much further in this Blood-ray discussion without NF really starting the ball with a beta change.

Odie mentioned in the devlog about trying to get some portions of the beta out sooner than the rest, the ones that are fully accepted and agreed upon, and Heretic's additions are a prime topic. Have we looked into using Mana Feather a ton? Any builds that enable it real well stand out? I saw some Ara's Edge discussion, that's awesome. Are the numbers on it good, or do we feel like we're dodging way too much? Too little? We've effectively increased our survivability at low mana significantly since we're dodging >50% of any nukes that come our way. What about working with Crit Poise and statuses in tandem? We talked about how they're anti-synergistic, but how bad is it in practice?

[wise crow]

Still no mirror

Ara's Edge is essentially unusable by Heretic. D.ara uses it better as they have more mana/hp/ward to fulfill its requirement while still being functional

Ara's Edge acales with ALs and is too weak at lower AL

[snow stag]

Addressing the non bloodray items first:

• I have been testing Mana Feather and overall ability to survive as HCorv. Specifically in Mel29 horde dungeons across the board. It got worse for dungeon floor 1. It is better once buffed (best case scenario floor 2, but not a given). This is before considering steadfast.

Why Mel29? I am AL 81 in my mirror from the last beta, so that is the level at which I get to make shackle level

Might be a bit higher, I forget

Because difficult floor 1 is an edge case that can potentially be worked around, I think this is overall a positive change

[bold vine]

if you're not moving, I might suggest starting a chunk and swapping to one of the other Heretics for setup, but that comes at the cost of swapping obviously

[snow stag]

I've said it elsewhere before I am sure, but probably not here: if I currently don't have to do that and now I do, the existence of a solution does not negate the fact that it got worse

[bold vine]

that is totally fair

[snow stag]

• Now, about Steadfast: it can ruin a run of any dungeon. There's basically no way to recover. We are talking a lot about freeze, stun, etc. We are probably not talking enough about random distortion, swordplays, mute, etc. ruining your entire dungeon run

Again, it can be worked around, but it is very taxing to have to patch these many holes

For the moment I am retesting baguette with positive status duration extending amity and gorgon eyes on weapon (I am using an AV4 setup with macha pillar and a scroll)

It can work. As I said though, very taxing build-wise. The hit is felt very strongly when all of your accessory slots and also your head slot are called for.

Ara's Edge is usable past a certain AL for world farming and for PvP to a lesser extent. Ara's Edge centric build would be what I would begin using if we lose Bloodray.

[bold vine]

(also someone somewhere asked about Mana Feather, it functions exactly like Mystic Feather but if you subbed out the HP bar for Mana, numbers and all)

[snow stag]

I don't think most people would be able to follow in my steps though. Very, very high quality, rare gear dependency.

[snow stag]

Thanks for confirming. Yes. The context was that Bordoadas was pointing out to me that SS doesn't ignore dodge chance due to mystic feather.

Flask of corvus - is nice. One shadowed element strike against a weak opponent charges almost 2.5 of my flasks (haven't looked at actual %s, sorry). Might be good to avoid having to use pet act in flask raiding builds. I would still much rather have steadfast.

[wise crow]

I wanted to confirm too, accuracy doesn't affect MF right?

[snow stag]

Additional context - using an AMorri Scroll

[bold vine]

I'd have to confirm with our rogue-flavored friends about that MF fact

[snow stag]

All that aside - Konq, I hear you and I understand the feedback does need to be collated.
From the perspective of us mortals though, if we don't speak up here about how this is at least perceived as unfair by us (myself and whoever agrees with me, not saying everyone here), then the majority rule will just crush us to the ground

I'd be hard to convince me that the arguments don't need to happen

I'm sorry this makes your already very difficult job harder

Changes cannot be discussed in a vacuum. This is why the comparisons are made.

Is any given option presented fair? Well, what are other optiosn and how would bloodray compare against them afterwards?

In this game, you can't answer the former without knowing the latter

[wise crow]

I think this summary of beta changes still holds true, not much has really changed in that regard

[bold vine]

yeah that's what I've garnered

[wise crow]

We could add Ara's Edge feedback as we test

[bold vine]

I totally understand the idea of comparing old things to new things to get a better idea, that part is fine, but it's when discussing how old things are balanced dominates discussion is where things get a little counter-productive

[snow stag]

I think you mean that it is not productive to bring up how things have been done in the past, and how that might influence future outcomes. Is that correct?

Not a trick question, I promise

[bold vine]

I don't mean that exactly, but could be part of it

if we're not giving the new stuff enough care and are only focusing on trying to address other issues, then it's harder to give those changes a green light or a red light

[snow stag]

Really trying to understand here. Is it a better rewording that you would like a change to go to beta that more people think could end up being ok?

As in, make change in beta now, test, give feedback

[bold vine]

in simple phrasing, we have beta changes live right now, test those and give feedback - we already have done that to a degree (and made ORN feedback for it!)

Blood-ray is unrelated to those beta changes as it stands

[snow stag]

Ok, it is fair. There was nearly no feedback here before today when the wasp's nest was shaken. I had mine and just hadn't told anyone (or mostly anyone, I chat a lot more in OL)

But I disagree with it not bieng part of the beta

It was made part of the beta the second that poll went up

Is it not expected for the options in the polls to be discussed here?

[bold vine]

I mean, we've seen with Blood-ray that it takes a bit more messing with to realize how overpowered something is - best to figure that out with additions in beta before it becomes a regular production issue, like Blood-ray has

[snow stag]

If not, then where?

[bold vine]

That's a bit of a circular thing - it was discussed here, then became a poll, then continued to be discussed here

Those polls and things like them are perfect for #1084643200725164062

[snow stag]

sorry I don't follow

[simple glacier]

I think what should be considered as “part of the patch” is what’s in the notes.

[wise crow]

Well the only reason bloodray is too powerful now (in pvp) is this little patch note

[bold vine]

• Blood-ray doesn't relate to this beta
• We discussed it in this beta thread regardless
• We created a poll in the ORN Polls thread, which was probably a bad thing, the first item on the list still applies
• We discussed it more in here as a result of the poll

[snow stag]

Thank you. That clears it up. To that I would say "harm's done, now it is part of the beta" if for no other reason than we know it's coming

[wise crow]

Bloodray was raised as a concern during discussion of Flasks of Corvus being underwhelming fwiw

[bold vine]

Yeah, it was - mostly as a result of a suggested change to FoC

[snow stag]

that's funny. Flasks of Corvus only matters WRT Bloodray from turn 2 and onwards

[bold vine]

No balance patch notes affect Blood-ray, so imo it is not part of this round of beta testing unless NF make changes

A constructive #1084643200725164062 thread about Blood-ray where results are polled is a perfect recipe for something an ORN can make into feedback in #1122705721281220628

so the TLDR is blame @open dagger for making the poll

[wise crow]

I think we can all agree on that, yes

[bold vine]

perfect, shame on him

[snow stag]

(but really it was Erdr1ck)

but not really, you are the best Erdr1ck

[bold vine]

nah Yoshi was the last sanity check, it's his fault

[wise crow]

In fairness Bordoadas was pushing for the poll too

[fossil isle]

What about additional QoL for manaseep, currently when using potion mana don't regenerate from manaseep and it's annoying

[snow stag]

I wouldn't hate it, but I'd be lying if I said I'd even noticed that was the case. I'd personally label it as low priority

[simple glacier]

There are changes coming to manaseep. Dungeons can be reentered and it won’t be lost

[wise crow]

I guess manaseep counts as a status effect, and status effects don't proc on item usage

[agile bane]

From the devblog:
Heretic improvements: The beta included a few popular changes suggested by the community, including a new Mana Feather passive to Heretic Corvus, Manaseep dungeoning QoL, and some more access to Flask charging methods.

I don't see any new flask charging methods other than 'flask of corvus' passive

[wise crow]

Unless..

Nope ok I had an inkling of hope that Odie had snuck in a new Ward Flask Infusion spell

Can we get confirmation from Odie/ORN team on what "more access to flask charging" is supposed to be?

It's probably just flasks of corvus I guess

[agile bane]

The 's' at the end of 'method' makes me curious too

[polar sun]

I'm looking forward to testing changes properly once mirror is out. Just waiting till then

[bold vine]

My guess is that it's just Flasks of Corvus but worded weirdly since there's a lot of stuff happening right now

[wise crow]

If I can I'd like to add another topic here - bloodray pve builds are somewhat viable for raiding but still suffer from inefficent charging since there's tension between flask power and flask charge gear (the best mix being arms of mnemosyne which are worse for bloodray than flukes of oceanus).

Ward Flask Infusion is a very cool spell and I'd love to see a new version of it that consumes half ward and gives only 1 flask

There's also tension with celestial augments in anguish since celestial weapons don't scale with anguish

[carmine glacier]

Can't seem to enter towers in the beta client, neither on the mirror nor sandbox character. Anyone experience this?

[worn trench]

Same's happening in Aethric beta

And for some reason Aethric beta can't enter monumental guild either

[keen meteor]

Damn I stop reading the comments on 11/14.

All I see is.

1. Billionaire are pissed because they are taxed and that their property is being taken 30% away，which they can take back easily.

2. Billionaires realize they need a different approach to stay a billionaire.

3. The poor grinders been hoping the government to provide systematic improvement and they given one for a chance to do it without scaling and required specific condition that only happens once or twice a year.

4. Statistics shown that billionaire it's not tax enough even after a few systematic changes. And billionaires are still complaining about the grinders taking their passive income rates of not losing.

As a person who seen how powerful ward SS is, and even until now it's still an issue, this new specific class lock/gear lock flask is very refreshing.

.

I still vote for not changing anything to the bloodray.

Bloodray is celestial class passive. It's supposed to be OP.
SS is a skill not tied to class.

I learn from MOBA game that if a skill is OP, just let it sink for awhile. Let ppl enjoy it, let the meta shift.

If the meta shifted to more than 50%, ya then it's an issue.

Odie should have the stats for PVP win rates and skill used. He should know.

[snow stag]

Even though I believe I will ultimately agree with most-all your points, It probably will help to remove the allegory and talk plainly.

I will also add it is not necessary to ad hominem your way through your otherwise perfectly good arguments

[snow stag]

I will add to my previous HCorv feedback that 'Flasks of Corvus' really is not adding anything to the class as best as I can tell.
I understand that Mana Feather is a significant improvement in Hera when compared to mystic feather, but only in a relative sense. Mystic Feather is also synergestic with Resurgence and Realmshifter is far, far, far from OP due to it.

If steadfast is off the table due to Gilga identity requirements then I'd like to see a different passive in addition to FoC

[green swift]

How much flask charge would be needed across gear to be able to spam Omniflask?

I know it wouldn't be as strong persay without the Power gear but if you ran Beguiled Y set + Morri Scroll, how much charge is that in addition to/without Flasks of Corvus?

[agile bane]

I am wondering what if flask of corvus is changed from +% flask charge to +% bloodflask regen per turn

[green swift]

Like it gives a small amount of Bloodflask charge per turn regardless of what you do?

[agile bane]

yes

[green swift]

That's kind of cool. I'm not sure if necessary or where I'd use but it is definitely kind of cool

[old fern]

Yeah, it's cool but i can't see much use for it if it's bloodflask only

[keen meteor]

Tbh, the charging doesn't make much difference to me when I can use Ward infusion flask to charge up all my flask.

I am actually interested in having Manaray remove or move to red flask from Hcorvus and increase red flask to 4.

Then Hcorvus becomes a class that focus on red flask, while Hara is blue flask focus.

Red mage and blue mage.

[agile bane]

maybe enough for 1 full blood ray when you finish buffing?

[keen meteor]

Flask regeneration? I think charging is more to the original theme though.

[green swift]

Heh make it like old mana siphon but for flasks "sometimes using a flask may not consume the [whole?] charge

Or I know there was a rework request where you had one chance of a filled bloodflask emptying to give a second chance but only once per combat

And with mana feather, that won't be as breakable

You could also theoretically "flasks may occasionally consume mana to deal extra damage" but that only applies to two of them so kinda not fitting or thematic

[wise crow]

Celestial class passives are not supposed to be OP, and I'm not sure what use waiting has when we know it's OP

[snow stag]

Agreed. The purpose here is not to increase power.
My argument is that removing SF lowers HCorv power, and I think it is not warranted.
So I am looking for ways to get back to parity.

[keen meteor]

Steadfast definitely needed to be remove from mage classes, defensive skill.
Mana feather, yes! A good improvement and related to the mage theme.

Flask of Corvus, maybe, charge flask when you kill enemies or cri proc?

[green swift]

Steadfast is only removed from HCorvus because it is adjacent to Thief class line

You could not do charge on Crit or Corvus would never lose a flask

[keen meteor]

Everyone say it's OP, I just don't think it is, compare to SS. Generally everyone thought that it is OP.

And I'm not trying to buff it up anymore.
I think the skill is good as it is. Ya maybe nerf it in PvP if you want. Just don't change the skill as it is.

[wise crow]

Yeah the only changes proposed by heretics are to the pvp side of the skill

[keen meteor]

Oh only Corvus. Damn it I thought all mage class. My mistake.

Maybe a chance to full charge a flask. Just like critical poise.
Doesn't have to be charge per proc.

[keen meteor]

I saw some wanted the can't be Dodge or block or protect removed.

That's why I assume other part of the skill will be change.

[wise crow]

Yeah I don't agree with that proposed change

[snow stag]

I was onboard with this until steadfast got removed. The ledger doesn't add up with this anymore.

It does mean lowering HCorv's overall power budget, even if it is only in PvP. And I don't agree this is the case, HCorv performs much worse in towers and Horde dungeons because of losing steadfast.

And I am confident in saying adding FoC in exchange for SF doesn't help the class in most content. I can only see it having an impact in Endless, and raiding to a lesser extent.

Before it is assumed it is not the case - yes this is based on testing

[green swift]

At this point, just in PvP, I'd rather see the skill lose the can't miss or go to turn 2/full flask. Can't Miss is the less detrimental to being able to have a fighting chance in PvP 😮‍💨

[green swift]

My old potato is fighting me when I try to run beta - have you tested how Ara's Edge turn one does to get dodge chance online? I know the damage is pathetic compared to hybrids

[snow stag]

I haven't requested my mirror to be updated, so admittedly I haven't tested those interactions.

From live experience - Hera Ara can be used to great effect to defeat enemies of lower level. It has a much harder time with enemies on par, and does ~nothing against higher level enemies focused on res

With Ara's Edge

HCorv is a much worse user

It is a one-shot on all 3 however. And I am lucky to be trying it at AL91. Lower AL people will not be able to use it for anything other than its utility in getting you a ~50% chance to dodge.

One-shot : you win or you are out of options

[green swift]

Yeah that has been the same conclusion I've come to on live - I'd only consider using it on Corvus to turn on Mana Feather

I don't feel like its low penetration was designed for Heretic hahaha

[snow stag]

Offensively and as is almost always the case, Deity and BeoH do it better

Like, waaaaaaay better

DAra especially

[green swift]

Hybrid scaling do be like that

I know Flasks of Corvus isn't the best thing in the world but I do think freeing up the scroll slot while still allowing faster charging is okay. The question is how good/does it need to be a higher charge rate overall?

With Beguiled gear and no scroll, can it charge a bloodflask turn one with a tri-element or hitting a weakness?

Though the other options I saw people suggesting could be neat or again just something else entirely

(Flask go poof second chance? xD)

[snow stag]

Not to spam, but I don't want my doom and gloom to be misconstrued. Not asking for buffs.
The point here is that FoC doesn't "pay" for the loss of steadfast. If we will loose SF then something other than or in addition to FoC needs to be added.

[green swift]

Pffffft Heretic players asking for buffs? That's a Gilgamesh and Deity thing

xD

[snow stag]

Listen, maybe. But what other class judges thier passives by the availability of event gear?

And turn 2 really, really doesn't matter

[green swift]

Furthering... Arisen Morrigan gear should interact with our passive somehow

[snow stag]

In PvP

In high mel horde dungeons turn 1 is WoO, turn 2-x are defensive buffs (and no, you are not wearing darkrift robe in mel 24); by the time you are done buffing, you have time to charge flasks.

Charging flasks faster also doesn't make a horde run go faster

Towers? Turn 2 only matters if you are in trouble and to prepare for future encounters. Nice, but I prefer not getting stun-locked.

[keen meteor]

Hcorvus sucks in all the other aspect. I wanted to carry my guild mate using Hcorvus, failed miserable in horde dungeon and raid party.

I just change back to Hara

[snow stag]

And I understand adding power is not currently part of the scope.
Again, only asking to get the class to where it currently is.

Or to not modify it.

[green swift]

I mean Heretic, RS, and GS need some help to catch up to SS3/Hybrid classes somewhere but I don't think that is the intent of this beta

[snow stag]

Yes, that is what I mean

I don't think reducing the performance of HCorv is intended either. My testing currently points to that being the end result.

And I personally blame the removal of Steadfast

[green swift]

Flasks of Corvus the more flasks you have filled, the less likely you are to be afflicted with a status effect xD (also please not actually)

[wise crow]

I can math the charge out however you want, what do you want equipped

Bc 30% charge is obviously less than a scroll

[green swift]

Full Beguiled Gear + FoC -> if it can't charge a Bloodflask in 1 go, that would be less useful

And I mean Robe, Hood, Legs

[snow stag]

Devil's advocate, trying to be forward looking: if Deity Celestials do get SF removed and HCorv doesn't, would HCorv become the new Deity-like menace that hits hard and is too dodgy?

I think there are some key differences:

• No second chance. This one is BIG.
• Much lower raw stats. Funnily and notably, including Mag.
• No access to Warrior gear requires sacrifices to using ward defensively.
• Innability to use SS without making one's entire build about it just to end up with bottom-of-the-barrel performance anyway.

[wise crow]

Yes, with 3x BAY gear plus 30% FoC it charges 56% of a flask

[green swift]

So BoF Guild Corvus likes that. Interesting

But I'm not sure where else

Well, Endless

Raiding??

[snow stag]

The... meme build BoF?

[wise crow]

With 1x BAX 2x BAY it's a hair above 50%

[snow stag]

The one that doesn't use flasks, you mean?

[green swift]

Haha oops I meant the Guild 😆 let me fix that

[wise crow]

We're talking about using a trielemental spell, right?

[green swift]

Yes

[wise crow]

Yeah. You need at least 2x BAY and 1x BAX plus 30% foc

Which is super restrictive lol

[green swift]

Is there a point of charge where Flasks of Corvus becomes useful in lieu of a Scroll without becoming OP if paired with gear and scroll??? (is there even a point it becomes OP?)

[wise crow]

I'm not sure what flask charge would classify as OP

[snow stag]

IMO a better question: what is the absolute worst thing a Hera can do if they go infinite with flasks?

You cannot go infinite with rays, so that's out

[wise crow]

Use Omniflask I guess

[old fern]

Well, unlike some other magic class we don't have multi hit flask

[snow stag]

And Omniflask already imposes a charge penalty

[old fern]

So yeah, basically omniflask and bloodray

[green swift]

Infinite max Iconoclast Ultima II Repetition Flask

[wise crow]

What's the penalty?

[snow stag]

Ok... and then?

[wise crow]

Rep flask doesn't charge IIRC, or am I wrong

[snow stag]

Like, in raids?

[snow stag]

I am not sure

[green swift]

Last I checked it did if using an element but maybe that is changed???

[keen meteor]

Rep flask charge flask as long as the spell it repeats charges it.

[wise crow]

Ok yeah just tested

[snow stag]

Thing with thinking: "oh, it would be OP if I could cast Ultima II every turn" is that, no, really you want to OHKO (and other classes can for longer than Hera), and if you cannot OHKO you will eventually need to reapply t.buffs and such

It only sounds OP. In practice, the deity and Beo both already gave you two laps defeating their raids

[old fern]

I also want to add, since omniflask is basically unviable on ara, dmg break is basically not an option outside of anguish bonuses

[snow stag]

Because you spent upwards of 7 turns just setting up

[snow stag]

Not basically. Factually.

[keen meteor]

Here, heretics are talking about charging flask not to make it OP.

I CAN'T. lol. I feel puny while thinking there's two class, one hit everything.

[simple glacier]

I agree with celestials aren’t supposed to be OP. The point of waiting though, is to watch where the meta ends up and then correct. Why? So we don’t land where we were before. Since ward and defenses won’t be addressed this patch, we still need to maintain the offensive power of that “swash” build. So that’s why we’d wait.

[wise crow]

Ok I math'd it out - if FoC was 60% flask charge, a full flask charge build (1h celestial, full bay gear, 100% scroll) would recover 100% flask charge on Ultima

Ultima doesn't charge extra on weakness

[simple glacier]

FoC lost some of its old appeal because of the gear added that increases the charge rate. Maybe FoC can add enough to sub out 2 pieces of BAY gear?

[snow stag]

BaY adds 12 each IIRC

[simple glacier]

Oh

Whoops. Nvm

[old fern]

But even if it was double the current value, i don't think it's worth losing steadfast given how anti synergistic status effects are with crit poise and all

[keen meteor]

Unless odie change it to only affect positive buffs and negative buff on enemy.

[wise crow]

I think if crit poise only affected positive buffs and FoC got some juice as the poll suggested, the trade would be acceptable

I'd still rather keep steadfast but it's less of a big deal

[snow stag]

I really encourage you all to think not about how fast your flask charges, but about what you'll do with that charge

[wise crow]

Well yeah, we established the most useful thing to do with the flask charge is repeat ultima 2. Which isn't that big of a deal

[keen meteor]

I use it for sigil flask.

And end it with Manaray flask if it keeps missing.

Wait Hcorvus have other use for flask besides blood ray?

[keen meteor]

Which can be done with base heretic. I didn't have celestial class until level 250. I didn't think celestial was that important tbh, I just want the weapon.

[wise crow]

Lots of the flasks are useful on all the classes, particularly in anguish/shackled

Corvus uses inflection to tank raids (and dungeons if you're setting up buffs), bloodloss is always useful if you need to blueline, manaseep will be useful for endless after the qol fix (and can be nice in raids)

Repetition flask is actually really awesome in raids because it ignores other flasks and ignores ward flask infusion

That means you can use it to recast DB2 or DC throughout the fight for example

[keen meteor]

I don't use inflection at all.
I don't use blood loss too, cause blue line is way too easy after all the buff.

Ya manaseep is the only one besides rep flask. I don't use rep flask now cause I am focusing on sigil flask, nothing much to repeat for Hara but I do use it as a base heretic.

Then when I try Hcorvus, yup only good at PVP after the gear for flask power came.

If I'm gonna use rep flask on Hcorvus, why not I just do it on Hara or base heretic with elemental sigil.

Also, critical poise helps with DC staying longer. I'm thinking, what does flask help Hcorvus besides manaseep and blood ray.

Unless there's a critical/physical base sigil flask.

Nerf blood ray, HCorvus is kinda like base heretic or worst.

[green swift]

Repetition flask to low mana Ultima and keep Crit poise up is just fine for raids

You can also rep flask DB if you get nuked after putting ward up

[keen meteor]

I mean I can do that with base heretic with rep flask.
Same for DB2.

The difference between base Heretic and Hcorvus is bloodray for flask. Ignoring the other passive skills.

Isn't celestial class should be better than base heretic? Even for flask?

Even Hara have better flask ability than base heretic, that's why I choose Hara for my first celestial class rather than Hcorvus due to the flask.

Nerf Bloodray, Hcorvus is not much different than a base heretic in terms of flask or worst.

[wise crow]

Flask raiding is very likely the best option in anguish

And again, celestials are not supposed to be better than base - they are supposed to be better at different things

Just to be clear, this is a really nice use case for repetition flask

Add in some flask power and you get to fill all flasks in one turn and then refill your ward in one turn. And you can use any number of flasks in between, repetition flask will remember DB2

[keen meteor]

Better at different thing but still better right?

HCorvus are better at what again if blood ray is nerf?

Base heretic have
1 better passive + 3.
HCorvus got 2 + one gonna removed

[keen meteor]

Isn't that the same with base heretic? The only difference is one is Omni flask, another is blood ray.

[wise crow]

Better at different things does not mean better in general.

A bloodray nerf would be for pvp only, bloodray is actually an awesome raiding and endless tool and will remain that way

[keen meteor]

Hcorvus lost a 25% sigil boost, lost life siphon,lost second chance, and soon Steadfast.

[keen meteor]

I hope it stay that way as we wish.

But as a celestial class, it should be better generally even if it's minor. I don't see it at Hcorvus.

[wise crow]

Yes, and corvus has thief gear, mana feather, crit poise

Bloodray is also a very strong tool. Here is an old example of shackled raiding speedrun

We have asked for a little bit extra power to corvus to make up for steadfast loss, that's a big part of this discussion

Flasks of corvus with some extra juice would be nice for endless but it's debatable if it's enough

[keen meteor]

Isn't the blood ray PVP discussion is in too?
SF is one of them.

[wise crow]

Bloodray in pvp is overtuned, that is another big part of the discussion

Losing steadfast is a power loss but it's not the end of the world

I'd like to see critical poise only apply to positive buffs

[swift condor]

meanwhile the deity chat lmfao

[wise crow]

They'll just end up getting more nerfs in the end IMO

[keen meteor]

What's up with the deity chat?

[old fern]

#1437510305252114573 message they couldn't agree so hard that they got the steadfast removal undone

[keen meteor]

Damn there's more deity players.

Heretic forever.

[keen meteor]

That means it stay here too?

[old fern]

I don't think, no

But you can ask the big man

[tropic pewter]

You folks okay in here?

[snow stag]

We steered the conversation back on topic, I think

[snow stag]

now that mirrors were granted, how are things looking?

[old fern]

Personally speaking, not great. I mostly tested anguished raids on corvus to see how mana feathers were looking, as well as the loss of steadfast.

As far as i could tell mf are not really that relevant in that kind of content, the amount of dodges was very underwhelming to me. The loss of sf on the other hand is a huge nerf, i basically could't go in without immunity gear (which lowers our already low dmg due to anguish maluses) or popping a looot of consumables per run (and if we use the best one, panacea, it kills both our blueline and mf). This nerf is also anti-synergistic with crit poise, mind you.

The addition of flask of corvus is also non influential to the current raiding method of recharging flask with wfi.

So yeah, future's looking grim, but who could've guessed it.

That's one of the reasons i was very interested in akai's omniflask build, those changes do not help the class in the slightest in a content in which we're already one of the worst class

[snow stag]

-# I am Akai BTW :p

[snow stag]

If you can, it'd be nice to try Gorgon eyes on a Zagreus' Bident

maybe reconfigure anguish maluses to avoid status protection reduction

I was also using baguette as an alternative to immune gear. That along with us benefitting from charging spells could be the type of adaptation corvus needs

I am saying Zagreus bident because we can take advantage of FoC + Scroll to reduce reliance on DB pets

not disagreeing with you in any case. Just curious about exploring options we do still have

If you go with scroll + FoC, don't forget Shadowed <element>strike exists

[old fern]

I don't have any bident unfortunately, but i've tried switching bull's eyes with gorgon's and the change was fine, but the dmg and defences were so much lower than using dioscuri mead+2h power kind of build. Plus gorgon's are basically not an option with celestial staff for flukes/mnemoise hands

Plus, manual recharging lowers our dmg output a lot. With a morri scroll shadowed strike gives back a flask and a half. Taking 4 turns to do just that while we're not tanky enough to take any meaningful dmg is not the best experience for me

I'd admit that i have yet to test the baguette as an alternative, i own only one

But again, we're already talking about a build that requires only event gear basically

[snow stag]

One flask and a half is enough to keep alternating between bloodflask and the charging strike. It might increase overall damage output,a ctually

[snow stag]

Yes. At least this hasn't changed though. It does as well right now

[old fern]

Yeah, but you also have to consider it requires 20% more base crit than a flask only build. 10 adorn slots can be a lot depending on gear

[snow stag]

Oh, because of the difference in slots between Zagreus and Yelm?

[old fern]

Yeah, the most promising build is using 2h power for a reason too

But i think we're getting in the theory crafting realm, a little out of scope

All i wanted to say is that i'm really not a fan of those changes

[wise crow]

There's basically no good shackled build for tougher raids. Mana feather is a fine defensive ability to have in raids, but it's not a substitute for defensive stats + steadfast

Either we go efficient and unsafe using ward flask infusion (works against easier raids) or we go more turtly and slow with charge rate

[wise crow]

Heretic is extremely unsuited for Ara's Edge. This is unshackled gameplay from @mortal stump, AL 102

The damage just isn't there. D.ara makes use of it much better with automatic mag buffs and much larger mana pool

[wise crow]

Here are my stats for endless when trying to readorn/regear to make use of manaseep. Unfortunately I have too much mana to make use of 5% missing mana unless I use something like arisen fey feet or FSS

Would be nice if we could modulate manaseep a bit but there are options to make it work

[keen meteor]

We need mana shield lol

[wise crow]

Like spiked shield for mana? That's Ara's edge

[keen meteor]

Oh which class is it from?

I'm thinking like Ward but it uses Mana instead.

[wise crow]

Watch this @keen meteor

It comes from Darkrift Robe

It consumes 80% mana to deal damage and scales with mana consumed and mag stat, just like spiked shield. But it's much worse

[keen meteor]

Ok that's bad. I just saw it.

I assume there's nothing to support that spell currently?

[wise crow]

Some classes can use it pretty well

D.ara uses it much better, beo does too

It's also quadratic scaling, because it increases much more through ALs

Heretic can't blueline with it and nothing gives us temp buffs or keeps them since it doesn't crit. It doesn't charge flasks either

We don't scale our mag stat like beo can and we have less mana than deity

[keen meteor]

It just goes against what heretic are.

[wise crow]

Sort of yeah, because it consumes 80% of current mana

[keen meteor]

80%current mana.... It's a better version of mana burn. But is just not for heretic.

[wise crow]

Very high AL heretics maybe

[snow stag]

I don't doubt they exist, but I don't know of any higher AL than those in this thread, many of which have tested Ara's Edge and did not have success.

[polar sun]

Yeah, it wasn't great at 153 al either

[green swift]

Magic Scythe: zero’d

[wise crow]

The background still has the name 💀

And the second chance text at the bottom

[green swift]

Ha

I shall fix

[wise crow]

It's on a lot of places in the background

[wise crow]

Odie I'm really curious to know if a Ward Flask Infusion 1 spell creation is on the table. It would really help flask raiding

[keen meteor]

I saw the nerf on status.

If critical poise affects negative status of opponents, I don't mind it though lol.

[wise crow]

This is shackled gameplay against great anguish using a pretty high resistance flask power build (over 8k iirc). My defense is only around 3k and chakram destroys me even harder

[wise crow]

Thoughts on heretic anguished raiding builds:

There are a few strategies but very few show promise for deeper anguish. This is corroborated by players at higher levels that have tried some of these builds. Flask Power seems to be the most promising; either Bloodray or Omniflask.

Flask charge rate strategies have a few flaws, primarily that refilling multiple flasks requires gear commitment and turn commitment. The only bridge between flask power and charge rate are oceanus/mnemosyne arms, which require celestial weapons that don't scale in anguish and would not have any crit chance.

For bloodray the best charging option would by nyx shadowedstrikes, but getting up to 75% crit chance without any crit from the celestial weapon is extremely taxing even without any crit maluses.

For Omniflask we look at Omniblast/a, but without repetition flask recasting DC and without pet act adornments we are left without a reliable source of buffs.

.

I needed 9 ashen pinions and a bracer to get up to 75% in this build, which has barely enough charge rate to get 1 flask per turn (counting flasks of corvus)

Having to use celestial weapons in anguish is detrimental in various ways. No scaling, not enough adornment slots for follower act rate, no anguish crucible bonus.

The flask charge augments are DoA for anguish unless we get some targeted tweaks.

Solutions:

• Add more gear that bridges flask power and charge rate.
• Add a spell that converts one manaflask into a bloodflask and vice versa. This will allow charge rate builds to tailor which flasks they are charging, possibly helpful to both flask power builds.
• Add a ward flask infusion 1 spell, converting half of current ward into up to 100% flask charge. This would allow flask power builds to recharge in a much safer way and alleviate pressure on the follower act rate required.

[wise crow]

So basically, current FoC is just gonna be a slight Endless boon and not much else

[wise crow]

Other possible solution (proposed by Akai):

• Replace manaray on Corvus with a flask that helps these builds. An easy effect is giving T.crit+, maybe T.mag+; the flask could give an extra turn depending on how strong the main effects are

[keen meteor]

Feels like we need to change to 4 bloodflask as I mention before.

4 manaflask for HAra. (Blue mage)
4 bloodflask for Hcorvus. (Red mage)

Starting charge,
Higher manaflask for HAra.
Higher bloodflask for Hcorvus.

Replace mana ray which is redundant to blood ray. A flask ability that supplement the thief class side of Hcorvus.

Could be a status effect/buff or a critical base spell.

[keen meteor]

Or even a spell that have chance that full charge a flask based on critical proc.

[snow stag]

If we don't also get a legally distinct FF Red Mage sprite pack, I'll riot

[green swift]

Red Mage: What Heretic Corvus could have been, heh

Red Magic: “Basic Attacks after casting spells will consume a small amount of mana to deal additional damage and effects based on the kind of spell used.”

Mana Weapons: “When wielding weapons of the Thief Class Line, gain magic equal to the attack of the weapon instead.”

Doublecasting: “Spells cast while holding a sword or dagger have a small chance to doublecast”

Though my experience with Red Mages is purely from the tactics games so

[snow stag]

Mana Weapons sounds awesome. It would also be broken AF

but yeah, double casting is red mage's claim to fame in FF

Sorry to have deviated the conversation away from the topic at hand, however. @wise crow but it very well, so just adding to the voice that it would be much easier to find an even trade in FoC if there was good reason to want to use blue flasks as part of a regular turn-by-turn rotation. The spot where Manaray is seems like the perfect place for it.

Damage + carrier effect would be good (get a t.buff, debuff the enemy somehow, increase damage of a spell next turn somehow, etc.). Just utility/buffing + extra turn could be good (larger amount of, or harder to access temporary buffs)

[old fern]

I have a suggestion about that, since we're already losing status protection what about a "cleanse" like flask that works similar the titan replica spell does, while giving an extra turn? I believe something similar has been already suggested here in this thread

Does not solve the core issue but it would make statuses more manageable

[wise crow]

I think such a flask would be really awesome but off-brand

[old fern]

I know, i does not help in any way but would be cool

[snow stag]

If it helps to throw ideas out:

• Spell storing flask to swap between spells selected for repetition flask
• Buffing flask that gives some of (not all) gives t.mag++, t.mag+, t.all+, t.crit+, t.crit++
• Flask that gives you alignment of an element after you cast a spell of that element, effectively rewarding casting spells of the same element multiple times.
• Cleanse flask with some buffs tacked to it, or that gives a free turn
• Flask that "reflects" debuffs back to the opponent (by which I mean removes them from caster, applies them to enemy

Erdr1ck's ideas are pretty cool also. I particularly like the one that augments basic attacks.

I was thinking the other day we have the "class identity" of being the best at using the "Reflect" spells and those have been gathering dust in the corner (as far as I know) due to how niche they are.

Maybe Corvus can retool them into being something more generally applicable?

[austere token]

Love the mana weapons suggestion!! 🙊

[keen meteor]

Mana Weapon is interesting.
Instead of gain magic, why not just use the stats for atk instead.

So the atk power becomes magic power.

So you can use all the thief atk weapon.

Gain magic will be a bit OP. Maybe can add status effects burning 🔥?

It's like your weapon are infuse with magic power.

[bold vine]

The Arisen Masamune would rear it's ugly head

220 base Att & Mag turn into 440 base Mag

[keen meteor]

Ya that's why a bit OP.

But if they can convert a atk based weapon into a magic weapon, that would be interesting.

Convert atk to mag stats if it is higher.

[oblique sigil]

So we can maximize the swash potential of Bof 😅😅😅

[wise crow]

Is the studio going to add any of the suggestions we made to Beta, by chance? As it stands the beta is an overall nerf to Corvus as FoC is almost nil in usefulness

Manafeather is overall positive but outweighed a bit by loss of steadfast

[echo trout]

Since Corvus is partly a rogue, why not add Avidity 1? That way we could recover some of the turns we lose healing 🙃

[tropic pewter]

yes, more updates will come. this will be a long beta, so updates may not come that frequently

[green swift]

As a trade for Efficiacious? lol

[echo trout]

After analyzing it, I don't think it's such a bad idea...

Effective 2:

• Elemental Weakness: +12
• Spellcasting Damage: -40%
• Elemental Immunity Damage: +25%

Corvus primarily receives spells with physical damage, so the first bonus isn't useful for his magic weapons. If it weren't for his 4 multi-[element] spells, it wouldn't be attractive to Corvus either.

Since most of his spells only last one turn, the second bonus isn't very interesting either. We have the Celestial Arrow, but what is its current usefulness? I didn't find any configuration for it on Google Sheets, which leads me to believe I'm not the only one who thinks "It's not a good option". And, in my opinion, casting spells that take several turns doesn't suit Corvus well.

And ultimately, who would continue attacking an immune enemy, wasting 75% of the damage, when they could use another element or a non-elemental ability to deal 100% damage? (For me, this is an advantage in Horde Dungeons, but Corvus isn't exactly a expert in dungeon either)

[green swift]

Sweet. This was why I didn’t want Efficacious in the rework (just for Corvus) 😬 but we had one big name (who has since quit) push very hard and in the end it was all that was offered iirc

[echo trout]

But my comment yesterday was to emphasize that we're losing a lot of rounds because of the lack of SF, and that we need something to make up for those losses.

[echo trout]

I'm not asking for an effective reformulation; I wasn't even the one who brought it to the table.

[green swift]

Just for Corvus, it is not a particularly useful Passive IMO

I like it a lot for Base and Ara

[echo trout]

Personally, I think we should have an updated version of FoC, with better effects than the current one, so we would test it first.

[echo trout]

Yes, it's certainly not the best passive ability for Corvus, but I would still support keeping it, even if only because it's part of his identity, and only changing it as a last resort.

FoC should be a priority so that it receives updates.

Charging a flask poorly saves a low-level scroll slot.

[green swift]

I hear you on FoC

But if it can be done, I’d love to see Efficacious removed from Corvus for something else more useful/less counteractive to the class.

It was requested by a player who wanted to use it to get Mystic Feather online easier. Some people pushed for other possibilities pointing out that it clashed with Crit Poise but in the end it was added.

Now with both mystic feather and steadfast gone and with Celestial Arrow being non-element, the main reasons aren’t there for Efficacious on Corvus anymore. If it were flavored for Corvus differently that would work too.

But something double or quickcast focused could go a long way. And Corvus is still shortchanged by gear compared to GUrsa/RDorado because it gets basically no use from Thief Weapons

Maybe I am the only one who feels this way but I see the Gilga thread still going full steam so I wouldn’t mind trying to get Corvus baked to perfection 😅 - and yes that includes balancing Bloodray in PvP

[keen meteor]

Isn't double cast a theme for deity?

Maybe need something that Pierce immunity for status effect.

[echo trout]

I personally think HCorvus should have a passive with one of these effects:

• Converts all Atk to Mag (in some fair proportion): allowing you to equip thief weapons, so using a dagger with Atk would increase Mag, using BoF would also increase Mag, as long as you had a weapon with Atk equipped.
• Converts all Mag to Atk: allowing HCorvus not to fall behind other classes in terms of Atk when using an identical build.

This is a comparison I made on the 17th, if I'm not mistaken.

It's in Portuguese, but I believe everyone can still identify the order of the statuses.

[keen meteor]

We mention that adding attack is OP.

Best is to use atk instead/in replace into the stats.

[wise crow]

I like efficacious in general, it's like a bundle of QOL. Corvus uses it:

• In endless, very handy for bypassing immunities with overwhelming damage while speedrunning floors
• With Ultima (ele weakness), which pairs well with critical poise
• Some relevant multi-turn spells like DB or DC, a minor thing that plays a role in raids. This may also have additional impact alongside mana feather as you'd have two layers of protection while multi-turn casting - low mana and damage reduction with high hp

I also think efficacious is a pretty mage-y ability that makes sense to be on all the heretics, but it's definitely no deal-breaker. Would make my endless significantly less efficient though

Celestial arrow is actually a pretty good spell but it doesn't really ever make sense to use a 2-turn spell in order to take advantage of the damage reduction (besides raid ultimates). The damage reduction is just a way to be more resilient

[keen meteor]

I like efficacious too.

[agile bane]

Yeah,, I just wish there are better multi turn spells for us to take advantage of efficacious

For one, I really wish our fey disaster spells get some help. Not only do they take 3 turns, nerfed in pvp (no thanks to spirit garm and not even a heretic fault), poor m1 and also hurt yourself by using it!

[green swift]

It was better when we could boost it with holy 😭 but yeah I get it. It’s not bad but it definitely isn’t good either

I’d love it to be a Holy + Fire spell and then I can think of some flask charging/raids/build purposes

[echo trout]

Heretic Corvus has lower attack than other classes because it lacks this conversion; the difference is too significant to ignore. If we had a passive that converted our Magic into Attack, why would it be overpowered? We would be using the same Attack-based abilities as other classes since we would be without Magic, and we would have an attack somewhat closer to other classes.

Heretic Corvus has half the attack of BeoH, but even adding Heretic's attack and magic doesn't surpass Hydrus.

[green swift]

Hmm

What if Flasks of Corvus did something like:

“after using a flask, your next spell has an increased chance to doublecast”? Or some such?

[keen meteor]

Most of their spell are hybrid, which means it's taking the average of both.

Adding is different.

Beo
Atk 1000
Mag 1000
Hybrid 1000

Heretic
Atk 500
Mag 1000
If add into it is 1500.

[echo trout]

I would be more satisfied if it were something closer to this:

1. Low Mana Based Passive

• • Condition: Automatically activates when mana drops below 30%.
• • Effect: Grants +10% Double Cast while active.

2. Alternating Permanent Stance

• • Condition: Costs 1 or 2 Flasks to activate (does not disappear unless the player uses it, just like Manaseep)
• • Effect: Grants +10% Double Cast while active.

The first option would be completely synergistic; we wouldn't even need to spend a turn and risk any T. Buffs disappearing.

[keen meteor]

But wouldn't that be just critical?

[wise crow]

Hybrid is not the average

[echo trout]

Ignore the numbers, they're just for illustration.

[wise crow]

Hyrbid is (att+mag)/1.66

[keen meteor]

My mistake. 1.66

[wise crow]

They get more damage that way

[echo trout]

That's not exactly true, they aren't limited to just hybrid abilities, and as far as I remember, Hybrid doesn't use exactly 50% of each stat, but even if it did, it would still be the sum of 12616 Attack and 5478 Magic, dividing that by 2 is still more than the Attack of Heretic Corvus.

[keen meteor]

Comparing to adding.

Adding is more with the same atk and mag.

[wise crow]

Also, beos don't make all their skills hybrid; are you talking about the ability Hybrid monster?

[keen meteor]

Most of their spells.

[echo trout]

That's why I said there should be a conversion beforehand.

It doesn't have to be a 1:1 conversion.

We are here to evaluate good ideas; the numbers will be adjusted by the Studio if something is included.

[keen meteor]

Conversion.... Hmmmm...

[echo trout]

Yep, it would be much stronger if it were just an addition, since I could use a build focused on Magic and with low Defense like:
Fallen Sky Shoes
Heretic’s Robe
Arisen Aaru Hood

||But I also wouldn't mind if NF did it. ||

[keen meteor]

I think adding 50% of atk is good though.

But ya as u said it's definitely not full.

50% atk goes into the magic stat would be interesting.

Then Corvus can use a lot of thief atk weapon.

[echo trout]

The reason for my comment is that: without SF, we're already encountering problems with turn economy; making it a one-time-use option would only worsen our current situation. Regarding turn economy, I'm spending more time using panacea or other healing than actually hitting the enemy. If I have to spend more turns before each attack, we'll sink even further.

[echo trout]

I would prefer it to be more of a conversion, like each point of Mag becomes 0.9 attack points, or something like that... But that's the part about the numbers I prefer to leave to NF, so if it could be balanced around 0.5 then okay.

But here we have a common point that I believe we should pursue: Corvus, despite having access to rogue equipment, is behind because our base attack is low, so we should have something to overcome that, and for me, preferably without increasing hybrid capabilities, this would be a good solution.

[keen meteor]

I don't think converting to Atk fit the theme though. Because is still a mage class but atk convert to mag at a conversion is great.

It's like making the weapon magical.

[wise crow]

What do you mean take advantage of efficacious? In what content would efficacious make a multi-turn move more desirable?

[polar sun]

I personally never make use of effacious on corvus. Even the dmg reduction part I find useless for myself. I tried to make it work on the obvious use case, raid ults. But I've never found one that doesn't still 1shot me if it was going to before

Plus, every multi-turn move counteracts crit poise since you're not critting that turn

[wise crow]

I don't think it's reasonable to ask for avidity on H.Corvus for the same reason that it's not reasonable to ask for efficacious or flasks on RSC. I know it's a bit different but avidity is the signature ability of RS

[polar sun]

I would agree there. I'd certainly love avidity, but I agree is realms thing really

[echo trout]

To avoid causing any wrong impression, I'll ping this message again.

[wise crow]

Yup I think most of us agree that something else is needed to make up for steadfast loss

If FoC gets juiced up somehow that's at least something we gain, right now it's just too low impact

[polar sun]

Id love to know if making crit poise not carry debuffs is something that might be considered

[wise crow]

It was definitely on the ORN summary but we'll see

[agile bane]

dmg reduction when casting multi turn spell

for raiding specifically

[wise crow]

Well we have divine bastion 2 and we could use Ultima 2

Celestial arrow is fairly solid overall as a crit spell

I'm not sure what better spell we'd be looking for; efficacious doesn't make me want to use a multi-turn spell, it just makes us a little safer during them

[trail onyx]

So, now that the poll is closed, can we get back on the Bloodray topic? Over half of the people voted in favor of it requiring a full flask. IMO that seems like a fair compromise, since it’s exactly what deity has to deal with apex wise as well

[keen meteor]

Damn I haven't even try playing blood ray build and it's gonna get nerf. Oh well.

I'm actually curious whether half of those who vote actually are those who are affected by it or ppl who play heretic as a main.

[simple glacier]

Poll was closed cause Odie shut that down. And you know it. No reason to waste typing power. Get a SC class

[simple glacier]

It needs to be looked at, but the focus of this patch won’t be that. Sadly some people don’t understand that it’s needed. Wish I saw this level of hysteria over other things…

[keen meteor]

Sorry, noob question, what's an SC class?

[simple glacier]

Second chance

[royal jewel]

Second Chance

[trail onyx]

The poll was closed because it hit the 7 day limit that all polls have, not because it wasn’t relevant. And that Odie comment was because that was the gilga thread, let’s stop spreading misinformation with an out of context screenshot please. They’ve repeatedly said this is a long beta and that more things can be looked at. I get people not wanting to see their shiny new toy nerfed, but the community has pretty consistently identified it as a pain point balance-wise

[simple glacier]

Pain point was ss3.

[trail onyx]

Also, I play a SC class, but I’m not really sure what that matters for. I’ve also argued in favor of nerfs to my class’ main tool so let’s stop the ad hominem attacks please

[simple glacier]

Yeah. Let’s stop talking instead. No need to start this convo up again. Everyone knows where you stand. Blah blah.

[keen meteor]

The community who get affected by blood ray or heretic main who realize that , "hey, I can finally fight in PVP? "

[keen meteor]

Just curious, what's your main?

[simple glacier]

Not heretic. Don’t engage lol.

Not worth it. He’ll start up a storm here. Again. For the 100th time

He’s also like Al 500

[trail onyx]

I’m really curious, did I disrespect you at any point? Really don’t see why you’re making this personal when we’re just trying to talk balance

[trail onyx]

Gilgamesh

[trail onyx]

Hey, I’m all in favor of buffs that make heretic relevant in PvP, every class should have a fighting chance. Blood ray is just too good in what it provides given the damage + 100% hit chance + pet block bypass. I’m all in favor of heretic getting a compensatory change if it gets changed

[simple glacier]

Wait. Don’t get it twisted. Not personal. Ever. And least of all with you man. However we are at the extreme opposites in this topic. When numbers get ridiculous (ward), damage has to get ridiculous. FMC was never an issue. But heretics have been complaining for a while (years) now. We have been affected the most with this ridiculous meta and the poll was honest too. We see it is strong. But we need other stuff fixed first. The whole game does.

[keen meteor]

I would rather see the data that Odie have for PVP to decide.

Most of the games I play, the data speaks louder than community votes.

[simple glacier]

There is no suitable substitute at this moment. So let’s see where the meta lands and go from there.

[trail onyx]

While I agree, the turn 1 Bloodray build is recent, since it was created by changes to gear. So there’s probably not enough data for them to be able to comment on. However, the repeated testing we’ve done shows it’s definitely an outlier

[simple glacier]

Literally coming here, to the only thread of people that have been relying on SC/parapet for years saying that that is too much. Yeah. It is. But we ain’t getting anything to alleviate that.

[trail onyx]

Hey, and disagreeing is okay. I still think FMC created a lot of inequality in the game (hell, I HoC’d away from realm because of it). But we can just agree to disagree on this point

[keen meteor]

Let's assume 10% ppl tested.

But 100% ppl who play the spells in live, only have less than 30-50% win rate.

That's a bad blood ray spell compare to other one shot meta with 80-90% win rate.

[trail onyx]

Trust me, I get that, that was the realm experience for years, and only Dorado slightly improved that. I think heretic needs new defensive tools to be competitive in PvP. Just giving it a bigger nuke isn’t really the solution imo

[simple glacier]

Just want people to not take it for granted. I’m dead serious when I say, we have no other options. That HAS to be the starting point. Until they release ultima from the purgatory it’s at.

[simple glacier]

Lol. That’s what I’m dealing with. Odie wanted the big nuke and not the defenses. I would’ve preferred the defense. But that’s not here nor there

[keen meteor]

Noob question, what is FMC?

[simple glacier]

Btw is iOS testing out yet?

[simple glacier]

Fixed miss chance

[trail onyx]

Yes, been out for a few days now

[keen meteor]

Wait they lock the Gilgamesh threads while we trying to figure out what can we do with our subpar mag damage. ...

LOLLLL

[simple glacier]

Where’s the link? I haven’t seen it anywhere

[simple glacier]

Some over there a difficult. DIFFICULT

[trail onyx]

Nevermind, it’s actually still not working. I got a notification on TestFlight saying the update was available, but it just doesn’t load up. Don’t think NF ever released a link, so it might just be available for previous testers that had it installed

[simple glacier]

That sucks. iOS is always a problem. Every time

[keen meteor]

Lol.... I didn't expect that. No wonder the votes are more than half on the poll.

Damn Meta ppl, u need Meta data to chill.

[trail onyx]

Yea, it’s very unfortunate. My wife has been forced to accept that her Android is mine while this beta lasts 😂

[keen meteor]

U can't quit the ecosystem trap hahaha

[keen meteor]

Get one Android for backup! Isn't it cheaper to get one?
Mine is just $50.

[keen meteor]

@green swift just show us that SS have 99% win rate..... Damnnnnnnn

[agile bane]

maybe one day when i visit your town as a heretic

[keen meteor]

Don't destroy my town, fellow comrade.

[wise crow]

I don't think it's an out of context screenshot and tbh the only consistent thing about the bloodray discussion is that you've been pushing against it.

Don't misrepresent the situation as "heretics just don't want a nerf", I've been saying it needs a nerf the entire time; but it has been hashed and rehashed and there have been no changes yet. Why are you bringing this up again when the gilga thread got locked literally because it was causing pointless arguing

[trail onyx]

If everyone agrees it needs a nerf, then discussing what that nerf should be makes sense, no?
Not really sure what the gilga thread has to do with this, people can discuss different parts of the beta, no?

[old fern]

Is there a point in discussing something that's not a part of the beta in a beta thread?

I think you can open a discussion thread for that if you want

[wise crow]

The nerf has been discussed more than enough times. You're just derailing threads bringing it up again

[keen meteor]

No, I don't agree it needs a nerf.
Yes, you can. But the first thing you came in was to inform that it's going for a nerf. It wasn't a discussion tbh.

That's why I was shocked. I thought it was confirmed

[trail onyx]

A potential nerf was being discussed from the beta start. Discussion paused because what that nerf should be was being polled, with the options that were offered during said discussion. I simply attempted to restart the conversation now that the poll was over and we had that extra piece of information

[wise crow]

I've already posted a screenshot where Konq is saying it doesn't belong in this thread and that the poll was probably a mistake

[trail onyx]

Bloodray is literally in the ORN feedback thread, posted by Konq, as a medium priority

Don’t think it’s that out of scope to discuss it

[keen meteor]

1. Potential but not gonna happen in this beta.
2. Discussion pause because it becomes heated by another fellow Gilga Chad.
3. As the other fellow Gilga Chad mention, blood ray is a meme spells. It's useless.

While here we are trying to discuss on redesigning the removed abilities. Or the high priority issues.

[wise crow]

It was brought up in this thread and added to that summary as a medium priority by us before it was polled. That's where it stands - it is a concern, it has been brought up, and possible solutions have been discussed.

But it's not part of the beta and until that changes, it sounds like it probably belongs in a non-beta discussion thread. We are all waiting to see if bloodray is addressed in this patch or not, but there's no changes at this time

We're trying to talk about more interesting things pertaining to our class

[keen meteor]

Damn I still can't get over gilga calling blood ray a meme spell...

[wise crow]

I shouldn't say that never mind

Suffice to say, I think that's an incorrect assessment

[royal jewel]

Tbh that’s all true except for the part that says it can be countered

Unless they’re counting SC/parapet as counters*

[wise crow]

To a SC class everything can be countered

(Except for CD)

[keen meteor]

Blood ray was a joke.... I feel sad.....

[wise crow]

I would rather continue mostly ignoring these posts. Flubby has consistently provided negativity to threads

[keen meteor]

I just think is funny but true in a way.

Hence I don't want it to be nerf as I mention before.

The only way it's gonna get nerf is when the data in PVP shows a trend it's going meta.

Anyway, Mana weapons seems great.

But we still need defensive skill after SF is gone. Or should HCorvus go dangerously glass cannon?

[simple glacier]

Lol. H Corvus is class with the worst defense in the game. (Probably fighting for the spot with GS tbh)

[snow stag]

I remember pushing for efficacious as well. Or at the very least for the removal of FoC

I am now caught up to speed. In my defense of efficacious I pointed out that turn 1 in high mel dungeons was a pain point for all Heretic classes, and that HCorv had the best way of dealing with it through Mystic Feather.
I can confidently say now that turn 1 setup is no longer as big of an issue with some options that were added, not least of which Mana Feather.
I would be sad to see efficacious go. I think it is comparable to a Gilga class not having CD, an RS class not having avidity, a deity class not having Apex, etc.
But given how we now have other options, I wouldn't be up in arms about it.

I liked the line of thinking in favor of "juicing up FoC".
I especially like the idea of making HCorv the double cast class. In a world without Gilga's CD I would have said doublecasts are too powerful to give them freely, but clearly that is not as much of a concern anymore.

It would have the addl. benefit of making amity effects that boost the effectiveness and likelihood of double casts more relevant.

[keen meteor]

I always thought double cast is a deity feature.

[snow stag]

Do they have any double cast abilities? I honestly don't remember

But I don't believe they do

[royal jewel]

Yeah, they don't

[keen meteor]

Ahhh okkk

Because I always see deity using double cast. So I thought it was their theme.

[tropic pewter]

what's the current tl;dr?

[wise crow]

Besides the ORN summary? Well

[agile bane]

#1437849816523866222 message

Basically this, honestly nothing new other than us complaining going in circles on the same old issue

[wise crow]

• Flasks of Corvus has been tested and found lacking in meaningful impact. Nice for endless, but non-impactful in raiding after testing for a few reasons

[tropic pewter]

ok, great

[wise crow]

Manual charging in raids fall short because the gear is restrictive and steers us away from flask power

[agile bane]

well, i dont think it is FoC is even nice for endless

[wise crow]

The best builds tend to rely on ward flask infusion

[tropic pewter]

Today's patch (it's out right now)

- Reduced the status protection bonus of "Steadfast" from 40% to 35%
- Heretic Corvus: Removed Flasks of Corvus passive, added Steadfast
- Frenzy now provides a 2x dex bonus
- Gilgamesh: Replaced "Steadfast II" with "Steadfast III"
- To balance for the Bestial Bond Bonus changes, reduced some stat bonuses that Bestial Bonds may provide
- Deity: Added "Staying Power"```

[wise crow]

SF3 😱

[zenith robin]

What is flasks of corvus

[agile bane]

+30% flask charge

[keen meteor]

Any chances for blood flask change up to 4 and 1 Mana flask for HCorvus?

[wise crow]

guys make sure we celebrate keeping sf1

🎉

[echo trout]

So we won't have a Double Cast passive/Flask as previously suggested? 😔

[wise crow]

Not this patch I don't think

[bold vine]

So, let's ask this - are we fully sated with the Heretic Corvus changes now in this patch? Here's a fully revised list:

- Removed Mystic Feather from Heretic Corvus
- Steadfast has been reduced in power from 40% to 35% Status Resistance
+ Added Mana Feather to Heretic Corvus, which functions like Mystic Feather but for Mana
+ Omni-flask no longer requires multiple turns
+ Manaseep will no longer fade when re-entering dungeons as a Manaflask-using class

To make it simple, I'll make a poll in #1437527716634296400, and it will be a binary yes or no. Feel free to discuss the details of your yes/nos here, but it'll just be "it's ready" or "it isn't"

#1437527716634296400 message

[wise crow]

If by fully sated you mean "is this good to go live", I think most people are happy. I think some people still want some more changes in general

[bold vine]

Please show that in the poll 🙂

[agile bane]

Good to go, but there is still room for improvement

[polar sun]

Id be interested if Phil's idea for a ward flask infusion I and II is a possibility. But overall, I have no complaints

[wise crow]

Yeah I was gonna add that

WFI 1 would be a great boost to the raiding builds

[snow stag]

Second the wish for WF lite / WF 1

[snow stag]

Since we still have Manasurge as one of the potential replacement options for Manaray, I wanted to share here that we did some testing using High Druid and as much +manaflask power as can currently be obtained in the game. The flask was still being 0d out in important areas. Understanding that better results would be seen if we were using a T10 class instead of a T7 class, we still think that Manasurge would not be good enough to see use most of the time

As such, I believe we no longer feel that is a good replacement

Putting emphasis in that, based on testing that has been made (thanks to Abyss, Goody Phil, and others that helped with this), we currently understand that +Manaflask power boosts M1

[keen meteor]

Manasflask that boost m1?

[wise crow]

Manaflask power gear multiplies your flask's M1, meaning it multiplies your mag before taking into account enemy resistance

[keen meteor]

So anything that says power means it multiple your M1. Got it.

[wise crow]

For flask spells only of course

[keen meteor]

Oh? Two handed power doesn't?

[wise crow]

2h power multiplies your mag and attack stats directly, you see it on the stats page. Flask power multiplies the m1 of your flask spells.

[keen meteor]

Just curious, while defending , will the AI uses flask ability?

[wise crow]

Some. Depends on the flask

Manaray and bloodray are typically only used when fully charged, or if the opponent is at low hp or has mystic feather or something. I think.

[keen meteor]

No way to test it?

[wise crow]

I mean you can try but bot AI is not exact science. The bot definitely does not use flasks often

[agile bane]

yes, they can use mana ray when a mana flask is full

[agile bane]

they have a chance to use mana ray when a mana flask is full, regardless if the opponent is low hp or using msytic feather