Grand Summoner Hydrus Rework

[dusk sandal]

not really

[hearty dove]

Okay I guess a bit less effort since there's no three tiered system

[dusk sandal]

its just a lookup of monster family and then mapping the monster family to a set of buff effects

and as far as Im aware its not often that a new family gets added if at all

and if odie adds a new monster / summon, he already adds it to a family anyway.

[hearty dove]

It'd definitely be something people would keep nagging about changing specific families' buffs for not being good though lol

[dusk sandal]

possibly, but it would open it a bit more build options and might give some purpose to currently unused summons. That's why I like it. E.g. ortanite golem and sandstone golem are currently in giant family. It would be fitting if they provided some kind of t def or t res buff. Dragons could maybe provide mag buffs. Animals maybe t all^, humans maybe dex.

[surreal zodiac]

i mean yeah u could go that route if u want to do bl2, gsh is weak without t.buffs being able to access buffs opens it up to other builds.

[surreal zodiac]

and don't forget about phoenix warrior with db

we could tweak out the chances of u getting the t. buffs we could base it on how much soul passive u have the more u have the more chances (just an example) but u get the idea

[light spindle]

I think GSH really needs a passive that allows you to use AOE pacts. That way, it's solely for GSH use and not for abusing with GS or GSA.
HyPa's current design removes all your summons, leaving you completely vulnerable and unable to even hit all enemies.

Being useless to be used in towers or dungeons, currently any class has AOE or Semi-AOE powers that allow it to do this job without having to sacrifice the follower

Not to mention that they have access to buffs through said followers that the GSH does not have.

[spark marsh]

Hey maybe a dumb question, but isn’t the point of summoner having the yelg staff so you have access to an aoe?

[dusk sandal]

sure you can do that but you wont get good damage from it, because we dont have access to pet buffs and beastfelled garb/aar robe dont do anything useful for us

on heretic I can use macaroni penguin with aaru robe to 4x my damage. Combine that with heretic 25% innate crit bonus and its doing 5x the damage of gsh

literally try gsh in the beta to experience how bad it is. Since youre a deity main iirc you will surely notice the difference

thats not even taking into account the fact that gsh passive is still a bit of a pita to charge

[spark marsh]

Don’t have beta or a mirror with the yelg stuff, but I’ll take your word for it. Yeah deity main I love the durability

[hollow plume]

deity? time to hoc to gsh

[fast garnet]

I dont know about you guys, but i got a feeling this update is gonna get scrapped

In the end - why turn a summoner class into an other aoe dungeoneer class like heretic or deity?

You will have the same or even worse effect because when gsh will use aoe - aoe sacrifices summons - youre left defenceless

And... abyss hitting 1b damage with bp3 😂

Something is going very wrong with the rework....

[dusk sandal]

its not turning the entire summoner class into that. Its turning an unused celestial class into that, because its arguably the biggest weakness of the class. You have to understand that gsh in its current state isnt really used by gs mains at all.

[fast garnet]

Yes but in my opinion they are overcomplicating the rework

Like re-inventing the wheel level of overcomplicating

[dusk sandal]

why

most people were against the idea of giving gsh a pet

[fast garnet]

Simplest and best rework would be - add ascensions to summons passive, increase pact power and increase "hydrus" passive to 20%

[dusk sandal]

no

that doesnt address the weakness of the summoner classline at all

[gilded skiff]

Then no one would use GS/GSA at all

[fast garnet]

Its about gsh

[dusk sandal]

we want gsh to fill a gap where gs/gsa is currently lacking: aoe capabilities

[fast garnet]

Gsa is perfectly ok as it is rn

Its the best class for endless

A good level up class from t7-t10

Like you dont stick around playing majistrate on t10

[pine garnet]

Give ascension to the GSH not the summons

[fast garnet]

[dusk sandal]

ok hes trolling

[pine garnet]

too much?

[fast garnet]

I am literally not

There is no other class who can do endless as well as gsa

And hydrus would need only huge buff to the pact stuff

To me - the whole rework is way too overcomplicated....

[devout garden]

I think you missed the part where we focus on making it better for horde content

[pine garnet]

https://tenor.com/view/typing-jim-carrey-jim-carrey-type-gif-4680550

[dusk sandal]

let me say it again: most of us want gsh to fill a gap where gs/gsa is currently lacking: aoe capabilities. What you are suggesting doesnt do anything for that at all, it just makes it more of a contender for raiding, and raiding is not the biggest area where we are lacking imo

[fast garnet]

Warning: It is my opinion, you dont need to agree or argue im just giving feedback here

[lyric fjord]

perhaps you are overcomplicating it? this is not an overcomplicated update at all. why on earth would we scrap it?

[fast garnet]

Yeah why though? There is heretic, deity, rs

[fast garnet]

I read that there was already gs rework planned in the past and it got scrappedb

Because people were protesting it or something

[dusk sandal]

well sure if I can use my gs ascensions on heretic then I wouldnt need to split it across 2 classes

[lyric fjord]

this whole thread is unscrapping that update

[fast garnet]

Well, here youre right

[pine garnet]

It was not "like re-inventing the wheel" imo, I think It's just hard to implement because one thing will lead to another

[fast garnet]

But on the other hand does every class need to be horde farmer?

What about gilga?

[lyric fjord]

please stop bringing other classes into this discussion. the more we focus on other classes, the less successful we will be at creating a unique identity for GSH

[fast garnet]

Alright.

[devout garden]

GSH is extremely underused -> the GS classline lacks in horde content -> we make GSH become better at clearing horde content

So it fixes a gap and gives GSH a purpose

[fast garnet]

I just told my opinion and you gang up on me

[gilded skiff]

We're summoners, we're used to 6v1

[dusk sandal]

imo at least all classes should be able to clear horde content reasonably well. I know we cant all be deity level, but man the suffering of going through wyrmhunt as GS...

[lyric fjord]

i think the issue is that a lot of hard work, discussion, and research has been put into this so far - to which you came in here suggesting it was all wrong

that may be upsetting to the folk that have put good work into it.

sharing your feedback is fine, but unnecessary criticism can elicit a reaction from humans

[fast garnet]

I didnt suggest it all wrong, i told that it was my opinion, that " it seems to me"

[lyric fjord]

#1410277906935975976 message

no, you said something was very wrong with the update

[fast garnet]

Wait Odie

I will show you something

[lyric fjord]

i'd rather we just get back to the productive convo

[fast garnet]

Gotcha

[pine garnet]

GSH could have a spell where they would sacrifice a weakest summon for a +1 chance and not make it a passive.

[fast garnet]

Ima stop writing here

[pine garnet]

what do you guys think?

[dusk sandal]

the way I would like to see gs subclass niches is like this:

base gs: player damage single target dps with blood pact or ultima
gsa: summon damage focused builds (can be used across raids, dungeons etc) and pvp defense
gsh: player damage but with a focus on aoe and pvp (offense)

some people still want gsh to focus on the single target dps niche, but unless quadratic BP gets axed it's tough for gsh to compete there at higher al

[fast garnet]

What do u mean by quadratic bp?

[dusk sandal]

ascensions increase both magic and summon hp (if you have ascended summons). Both increase the damage of blood pact linearly. So an al100 gs will do 4x damage with BP compared to a 0 al gs

[surreal zodiac]

true man, it shouldn't be so hard for other classes when everything should be just functional or viable to an extent ofc there's also going to be a class that will excel in a specific content. But that doesnt mean that it should be worse for every other class.

[long glacier]

So the latest task was calling one simple thing GSH needs that's not in the beta yet.

From the answers to that question i took the sentiment that

• t.buffs would be overall more benefitial in most content and easier to implement (except the individual buff per summon variant) but comes with less identity
• full HyPa AoE, eventually covered by increased CR rates of some sort, powerful in certain content, more class flavour

If forced to choose ppl tend to t.buffs, is that correct?

[surreal zodiac]

yes t.buffs first

[dusk sandal]

some people might think "gs can have 5 summons, why does it need aoe". But when you have content like towers or despair world farming, you dont really want to spend turns summoning and you would rather just use an aoe spell instead. And in events like wyrmhunt the summon damage has a hard time keeping up with what player based dmg can do on most other classes.

on beo you kinda have a similar thing where pet based damage isnt that great for content where you need aoe. But they can at least fall back on beoh which is a good aoe class, GS doesnt currently have that luxury

[dusk sandal]

I dont know if you can say that if you have full aoe hypa, that you dont need t buffs. That is only the case if hypa is sustainable and has considerably higher damage than e.g. BL2 has, so you wouldnt need the t buffs to hit thresholds. I dont think thats currently the case.

[surreal zodiac]

i've said it a lot of times here but ill say it again. T. buffs generation via summons load out, if a summon has this spell in its loadout e.g(great meditation) then it will get it upon death. My justification for this kind of method is that its thematic and would solve the issue for the need of pet or the summon giving it to you itself. Pair this with hypa and gsh will start rolling horde dgns and even despair (towers probably too it has that potential). Anyhow this method allows gsh for more build varieties because of its t. buffs which equals to more build potential to the class. We can work on how the probability or chances of you getting the buffs, i think imo this is a solid foundation and we could just start to work our ways to make it viable & fair in case its too broken.

[surreal zodiac]

true, although gsa horde dungeon is doable for a high al like me with a relevant ang level to my gears i hit the roadblock for my anguish dungeons faster than i expected.

and to make it really work? i have to prepare like im doing endless which consumes more time for me to be able to do other contents i want

[long glacier]

Underlines the point of t.buffs being higher in the priority chain

[fast garnet]

Thats true though

[dusk sandal]

turn 1 hypa is doing about 130k damage in a dungeon, thats with fss, heretic robe, 5x eos arm and nekro staff on 101 al gsh. I dont have yel staff in beta, but on live Im doing 200k turn 1 with bl2 on heretic ara (82 al). Heretic has a bit higher mag stat and the innate crit bonus, but still it seems like bl2 is dealing more damage than hypa. So I really think t buffs are really a must even if we want the full aoe hypa

[lyric fjord]

bl2 needs a haircut, so might not be a great comparison point

[fast garnet]

Agree
And storming tempest a buff or change to dynamic hybrid

[lyric fjord]

please keep the thread on topic

[fast garnet]

Sorry

[reef harness]

Not exactly, it's extremely good, too good even, it can easily sweep the floor with very high anguush

It used to be the meta in the past but with the new weapons it got overshadowed but now it's showing up again

Kinda needs a nerf

[fast garnet]

Please keep the thread on topic, Odie said

But gsa would be nice aldo to have ability to do horde as well as other class

And gsh... so yeah

[reef harness]

Oi oi, if you do it once so can I

[dusk sandal]

even if bl2 damage is cut in half, I think BL2 would still be the choice for horde dungeons for beta gsh. Hypa is currently not spammable like bl2 (requires you to replenish summons), is not really boostable by amities and kinda forces you into a celestial weapon with eos arms (which does not scale well with anguish).

anyway I still think some form of t buffs are needed even if hypa gets buffed. Other classes can use e.g. aaru robe with a dc pet to get 4x damage or DC + beast garb for 3x damage. Its hard for raw HyPa to keep up with that.

[fast garnet]

Agree

[surreal zodiac]

i also agree on this take

its easy to quadruple your dmg on bl2 on other class but on hypa its a different case, the lack of t. buffs makes it hard to produce a good amount of dmg. Like even using on bl2 too on gsh, so i don't think hypa will perform a lot better if it doesnt have t. buff & not sustainable ofc.

[fast garnet]

Maybe by equipping aaru robe (and other stuff which gives summons skills) summons would cast t.mag+++ or other buffs in question Not only on themselves, but you aswell?

Or adding a passive which would enable this with 50% chance

[dusk sandal]

I just dont know what the best solution is. It really depends on whether you want gsh to be a bl2 spammer or to use hypa for its main aoe damage. The bl2 route is the simpler option, because then you could just slap on a temp buff passive to make up for the lack of pet buffs. But the hypa route is more difficult. There's several limitations of hypa vs bl2:

• It can only hit up to 3 targets
• It requires x summons to hit x targets, this prevents you from using hypa turn 1 for e.g. darkrift despair farming. You can only hit 2 targets in that scenario, so kinda have to go BL2. In towers you can also only hit up to 2 targets for the same reason. Whereas with bl2 you can just hit 5 targets turn 1, which is why BL2 is currently by far the best option for towers and despair.
• It is not sustainable. This is mainly a problem for dungeons where you need to clear floors subsequently. After using hypa you are left with a largely empty field of summons. This one is not that easy to solve, because you cant really crank up CR2 that much.

[fast garnet]

Like 50% chance that when summon uses a buff it will be cast onto the summoner

That would actually be pretty dope

"Elysian synergy" heeeell yeeeah

[gilded skiff]

It would still take them 3 turns to cast GM

[fast garnet]

But you got 5 summons

[surreal zodiac]

i have solution for that already which is this

i've said it a lot of times here but ill say it again. T. buffs generation via summons load out, if a summon has this spell in its loadout e.g(great meditation) then it will get it upon death. My justification for this kind of method is that its thematic and would solve the issue for the need of pet or the summon giving it to you itself. Pair this with hypa and gsh will start rolling horde dgns and even despair (towers probably too it has that potential). Anyhow this method allows gsh for more build varieties because of its t. buffs which equals to more build potential to the class. We can work on how the probability or chances of you getting the buffs, i think imo this is a solid foundation and we could just start to work our ways to make it viable & fair in case its too broken.

[fast garnet]

And u got penguin summon

Which does dc

[surreal zodiac]

they dont act like pets at all, so it'd take them a lot of time to cast it

[fast garnet]

But why upon death though?

[dusk sandal]

duude its like youve never played the class like cmon

[surreal zodiac]

to synergize with hypa and its thematical as well

u gain passive + chance for temp buffs

[fast garnet]

Hm

Thats a pretty good idea

[dusk sandal]

if you clear a floor the summons arent getting turns either. Its not like with a pet that it can give you the buff after you clear the floor

[surreal zodiac]

yeah i just really wish that it doesnt depend on the amount of summons for u to hit x amount of enemies

we use summon dead, enemy's turn they hit summon dead and its dead and now back to only hitting 2 enemies

[fast garnet]

But see again this is an amazing idea

But overcomplicated IN MY OPINION

[dusk sandal]

propose a better solution then

[surreal zodiac]

yeah but i dont really care if it takes a lot of time to implement, if we're gonna slap some band aid solution to the class then itll be doomed

[fast garnet]

Why not just add passive to hydrus "elysian synergy" whatever buff the summon uses on themselves it has x% chance to transfer the buff onto the summoner

[dusk sandal]

because we just said that wouldnt work well

[fast garnet]

Easy, not overcomplicTed

[fast garnet]

Why not

[surreal zodiac]

summons doesnt get turn chance like pet does

[dusk sandal]

I cant man

[fast garnet]

Turn chance?

Wdym

[surreal zodiac]

like them casting it in just 1 turn like pet does

[dusk sandal]

this guy is trolling

[fast garnet]

I mean my logic here is - you have gear which can transfer buffs

[surreal zodiac]

e.g u use aaru robe and then the pet casts it in 1 turn

[fast garnet]

On your summons

[fast garnet]

Can you please not say that all the time when you dont agree with me?

[dusk sandal]

you ask literally the same question twice

[long glacier]

Just take a break Pie, eat a bagel

[dusk sandal]

about why that idea wouldnt work with how summon buff turns work, and how they dont get turns if we clear a floor

[fast garnet]

If there is gear with "transfer buff chance %" why not have the same thing the other way around?

[fast garnet]

Then block me man

Dont read my messages

[surreal zodiac]

i mean current stuff already works like that? im not sure if im following u here but if u use aaru robe the summons will get it.

the idea i proposed thats based on summon loadout, if u use beastfelled garb or aaru robe it would add that to its load out as well and then we can still get that buffs from the summons from the item passive

[fast garnet]

You are not following me here

I say that there is gear that transfers your buffs to summons

Right?

[surreal zodiac]

yeah and then

[fast garnet]

Why not have it the other way around

[dusk sandal]

#1410277906935975976 message

3 or 4 has my preference

[fast garnet]

That chance that summons transfer their buffs

Onto YOU, the summoner

With a x%chance

This is an easy solution

Without overcomplicating

[dusk sandal]

what you are suggesting is really not novel lol. It is pretty much 1 in that list of ideas.

[surreal zodiac]

3 is more simpler concept and probably hard to implement or time consuming because of the amount of summons and their load out for checking

[fast garnet]

Yes see?

That has been a suggestion before

So = popular opinion

[dusk sandal]

and we dont like it because it means you have to wait 3 turns for summons to cast dc, gm etc

[fast garnet]

Who are "we"?

Are you multiple people on your discord account?

I am certainly not "we"

[long glacier]

The ones discussing here for literal months

[dusk sandal]

yeah ok hes trolling

I wish I could ban him from this thread but I cant

[fast garnet]

🤦‍♂️

Im stopping my disxussion with you

Pointless

[dusk sandal]

Ill just block him and try to have a discussion

[fast garnet]

I propose an idea - you are hating it

Thats not how discussions work

[dusk sandal]

I totally get why they banned him from hoa discord. This is so annoying

[light spindle]

yeah

[fast garnet]

Anger management maybe?

I was literally just proposing ideas

[long glacier]

Discussion worked great so far.
We nailed it down to 2 points either full AoE HyPa or t.buff generation.

Now we're leaning towards t.buffs since they're priority and work on different ways to impement them.

[fast garnet]

And thats a really nice idea

I hope it gets implemented

[long glacier]

And i thank you for that.
Now we move on.

[fast garnet]

And amazing that the community is working hard on this update aswell

[fast garnet]

All right

👍

[devout sedge]

the problem with your idea is that you would be stuck on the same floor for 3 turns if you want to get your summon to pass you DC or GM, are you really willing to stall 3 turns for that every time a temp buff falls off?

chat went on way faster then expected while i was typing

[long glacier]

I'll set smth up including why we came to t.buffs and which kind of generation were suggested and directly pester Odie with it.

[dusk sandal]

I think the way is T buff first and see what else is needed from there to close the gap.

My preference would be if we got full aoe hypa on top of that to have more of a distinct identity vs other mages, but as a 2h offhand spell to make it still tied to gear like bl2, despair etc are.

[fast garnet]

Btw will hypa have neutral element right? Will that be influence-able by enchanting weapon with element?

Because there is stuff like beguiled quarterstaff (summon stats) with distinct 25% + elemental damage

Sorry, faction damage

[surreal zodiac]

no hypa is non elemental

like bp

[fast garnet]

So... same principle

I see

Thanks for clarifying

[surreal zodiac]

pretty much

[gilded skiff]

If we want HyPa to be a buff generation, what about going all in into that and remove the damage from it and make it add a turn instead? It would allow us to make a use our summons, without slowing down the fight.

We could have multiple version of it, for example one that eat a summon to give magic buffs, one that eat a summon to give ward turns, one that eat 3 summons to give DC, etc...

It's easier to implement than specific buff per summon but still provide a lot of versability

[dusk sandal]

then you want to have bl2 as main aoe damage spell?

[gilded skiff]

well bl2 or whatever you please

We can wear thieves gear, we could have a reverse pact that inverts attack and magic and use thieves weapon

[surreal zodiac]

its not really hypa doing the buff generation but rather the innate passive itself, hypa is just the medium or trigger whatever u call it but the t. buff generation is the passive.

[dusk sandal]

how about this

Add fallen GS to the game as a boss. Make it drop 'Summoners archistaff'

Summoners archistaff: 280 base mag, 30% base ward, 20% summon stats, 50% pact bonus (no eos arms so imo it needs some innate pact bonus)
Gives access to hypa 3 as an offhand spell:

Hypa 3:
Sacrifice 2 summons to hit 5 targets

[surreal zodiac]

i mean im down with it? reason why i am pushing gsh for horde content too so that it's not as gear dependant class and doesnt trigger fomo that much.

would this be a single handed weapon?

[dusk sandal]

2H

[surreal zodiac]

i mean its either we get this or some kind of a reworked item in the rift event but this one isnt too bad tbh

[fast garnet]

Sacrifice 2 summons to hit 5 targets and deal slight self-damage

[surreal zodiac]

oh nice good to know, some ward too would be nice

[long glacier]

I'd personally lean more towards summoner gear with chain chance.

[dusk sandal]

but then it would still only go up to 4 targets I suppose?

[fast garnet]

Honestly - yes

Thats a good workaround

[dusk sandal]

and theres no way you can get 100% chain chance

[fast garnet]

Since they also added chain damage adorns

[surreal zodiac]

yeah so u would be still struggling to hit all enemies, or at least to make the aoe good

[fast garnet]

Actually there is

With new adorns

[surreal zodiac]

how much does it give again?

[fast garnet]

And t4 sumner gear

[fast garnet]

1% per adorn

[surreal zodiac]

yeah no

[void portal]

if we get dependent on chain chance then full aoe isn't possible

Since the gsh pact is not very sustainable the chain chance takes too much time to hit everyone

and that again becomes problematic

[dusk sandal]

the fact that this only sacs 2 summons would make it usable for darkrift world farming and towers, though you are left with no summons afterwards. It would still not really be sustainable in dungeons, but it would at least be a bit more sustainable than current hypa.

[void portal]

True

2 summon sacrifice is manageable

and not a serious blow on survivability

[surreal zodiac]

is it alright to discuss the hypa sustainability now? i think ive pretty much said everything about the t. buffs

[void portal]

if you prepared more summons (with horde summon spell)

[void portal]

when i talk about sustainability i mean that low amount of summons get sacrificed

and your t. buff suggestion can work with sacrifice of 2 summons too

[surreal zodiac]

for hypa sustainability would the increased cr the most ideal solution for it? or a x% amount of hp reduction per hypa is used?

[void portal]

can you explain x% hp reduction per hypa

I didn't understand what you meant.

[dusk sandal]

when discussing sustainability, I think we have to specify what we define as sustainable:

• No turns spent summoning at all (like current BL2 and despair aoe spells)
• Resummoning every 2-3 number of floors
• Resummoning every floor (current hypa)

[void portal]

As long as not all summons are sacrificed (or we can prepare to let some summons stay on the field), and the spell isn't taking multiple turns, I think it should be fine.

[hearty dove]

The optimal rotation in a world with t.mags and where we use an offhand "BL-Esque" AoE spell, would be

Spawn in dungeon, buff up (Jinns, Snotra, probably enough)
HyPa to clear the floor and get t.mags
Spam Offhand to sweep
CR passively rebuilds an (undead) summon army
tbuffs fall off and we fail to oneshot a floor
HyPa to clear the floor and get t.mags
repeat

[dusk sandal]

I still think hypa should kill the summon completely, but there are some ways to make it more sustainable:

• Make it sac fewer summons
• Crank CR2
• Add some other passive that makes you create new summons withotu spending turns on it. E.g. kaines earlier idea where killing x enemies with hypa meant spawning x skeletons on the field

[hearty dove]

The optimal rotation where we have full AoE HyPa would likely be

Spawn in dungeon, buff up and fill the board with summons
HyPa to clear floors, probably three or four floors in a row before ammo runs out
Refuel, repeat

But something like that is also unlikely to be good tbh. Four floors is too low. hm

[surreal zodiac]

kinda like how your summons hp gets reduced in blood pact, however that suggestion is flawed something doesnt feel right about it

[surreal zodiac]

for sustainability a continous streamline of hypa, the cr % can't keep up with it

[hearty dove]

It's all down to turn economy in the end. It'll take us a full turn to restock, during which we are doing nothing, and might even have our ammo killed off because enemies can kill our summons

[void portal]

The problem is we can't survive if all summons are dead

Our summons are both our lifeline and our ammo

so we have to keep at least 2 summons for second chance

or it'll be near impossible to survive

[hearty dove]

Having another source of summons would likely be needed if we wanted to rely solely on HyPa for AoE. But that makes the rework even more complicated, hence why I think just having HyPa serve as a good semi AoE that productively kills our summons to proc t.mags to use with an offhand spell is the more realistic approach

[surreal zodiac]

i see, i think kaine's idea is still great for sustainability, i mean we could crank cr to 40-50% if needed

[hearty dove]

This other source could be many of the previously suggested ones, like chance on summon death to revive on skeleton, or chance on killing an enemy to spawn a skeleton, or god forbid even a special summon that splits into two when it dies, like an ooze or something

[void portal]

cr should be inverse proportional to total no. of summons on field

so if we have low or no summons we can immediately get them

this can work (probably)

[spark marsh]

I ain’t gonna lie that question’s been on my mind since I’ve been lurking here

[devout garden]

This happened yesterday, it was really funny to see

[dusk sandal]

see, its not just GS mains that complain about GS horde

[devout garden]

Ngl, coming from BeoH swansong and not having the Panda I can understand why he reacted like that xd

[dusk sandal]

it was so nice doing last wyrmhunt as hcorv and not GS. I was still oneshotting all floors except the ones with zerk ymirs. Every wyrmhunt since 2023 Ive done it as either heretic or deity, it is just too unbearable for me as gs

[devout garden]

Anguish 12, too

[dusk sandal]

I wonder if pet is still on the table.. it's not the nicest solution in terms of identity but slapping a pet on current gsh might at least solve the issues surrounding (temp) buffs and synergy with aaru robe etc

[dusk sandal]

And I'd argue slapping on a pet does not have to cost us guidelight like in the last rework.

I get the concerns around snapshotting summons from gsa and using it with gsh.

But for a normal horde dungeon that's just not worth the effort. For gsh horde dungeons you'd want to charge passive asap and then spam aoe spells, which you do with weak summons.

For endless you could snapshot fully buffed mammoths/ad and then swap to gsh. As gsh you would be tankier than gsa. But you lose smartai which is crucial on mammoths. You also lose batallions 3 so you have a higher chance of getting hit, and at deeper floors you will probably still get oneshot even as gsh (I know I would with perm buff fade ang malus). Gsh second chance isn't doing anything in endless. You're not going to be able to do the setup again in the middle of a run after your field is wiped by second chance

[median harness]

Slap a pet on it! I would HoC to try that out so fast lol

[surreal zodiac]

https://tenor.com/view/tweaking-out-black-guy-tweaking-meme-gif-6022943353035016664

[devout garden]

#1410277906935975976 message

Not sure if it still applies, but yeah

[dusk sandal]

welp

I was just throwing the idea out there to see what others thought of it. I dont think the majority is in favor anyway

imo not having a pet is arguably gsh's biggest shortcoming right now in dungeon content. Adding a summon-based temp buff passive would help, but it's sort of reinventing the wheel a bit because the entire pet system is already quite fleshed out with gear that synergizes with it

[surreal zodiac]

that is true, pet would convenient and quick fix for it, it easily solves of u getting t. buffs and what not and possibly use eos replica

but it doesnt feel right to me

without pets, i think its alright to assume that the way we get t. buffs is gonna be a lil just lil complicated than other classes

#1410277906935975976 message
ehem ehem, (no. 3 pls) would literally solve most problems on gsh and great synergy with hypa

[surreal zodiac]

hard to make summons functions like a pet, otherwise if u have 5 util pets u could just keep getting tons of buffs and u can just abuse bl2 in dgns or qat. Imagine just getting d.c and gm everytime lol after the next one expires, the other summon would cast it again.

[dusk sandal]

3 is not happening tho lets be real

[dusk sandal]

Fair counterpoint from john egbert: you could rhada 1 turn dc from phoenix in endless which could be op with fully buffed summons

Why is this rework so goddamn complex

[surreal zodiac]

it needs to happen odie pretty pweaze, its the only way

[devout sedge]

Personally I would be fine with summoner pets only (eos etc)

[devout sedge]

I second this tho

[surreal zodiac]

for how complicated the number 3 might seem to be implemented. I feel like it's the only way for a summoner to be competent as a mage. It'll be a unique way to get t.buffs and would actually let us finally use utility summons much better.

from my pov it's either we slap a band-aid solution that could probably fix it, but loses it's identity or resort to a longer process that could actually make it great.

class itself is already complicated to fix, either we go all out or keep settling for less and the more we settle for less it's not gonna excel at something

[hearty dove]

Eos does still have pseudo-DC and therefore the endless concern is still there

[surreal zodiac]

i just really want it to work this time

[nimble relic]

I would like to suggest removing guidelight from gsh, but give gsh a bb1 and add guidelight to summoner pets bond

[dusk sandal]

Are you kidding, thats even more of a balance concern

That would mean every class could use snapshotted mammoths in endless and rhada dc

[nimble relic]

I think pet guidelight should be differend than the passive of gs

[hearty dove]

What if I have an army of summons at my side, but I'm also actually a deity hitting for 2m with viperseals every turn

[dusk sandal]

I understand what you mean, it's something you suggested earlier. That it would only carry over summons summoned by the pet. But that would still be a bit clunky for gsh. All your self summoned summons wouldnt carry over floors that way.

[nimble relic]

That way it would be balanced and not snapshottable

[dusk sandal]

but how would it interact with CR2. If CR2 summons an AD, it would not get carried to the next floor in a dungeon

Because it wouldnt be summoned by the pet

Or if you cast a summon yourself as gsh

Imo in case gsh keeps a pet it should keep guide light

Maybe gsh should not be allowed to use rhada pact to prevent it from rhadaing pet buffs to snapshotted gsa summons I cant think of a better solution

[nimble relic]

Idk

But i wouldnt give pets to gsh for free. Something needs to go

And for the sake of balance > guidelight

[dusk sandal]

Why does something need to go

The class in the beta is still very underpowered

[nimble relic]

Then there needs to be something differend

[dusk sandal]

Why

I mean weve already discussed other options

Pet is just another possible option that might be simpler to implement

[nimble relic]

For sure pet is good option. But something needs to go or there needs to be changes to how summons function with other classes

[dusk sandal]

Why tho. What does this eos stuff have to do with gsh

[nimble relic]

For examble

heavily reduce summoning power to be in par with non summoners( gsh still can summon without fail chance)
remove guidelight
adjust summon stat so summons cant start with negative stats

[dusk sandal]

why is that needed

[nimble relic]

For the sake of balance

[surreal zodiac]

hypothetically without guiding light it would suck

[dusk sandal]

Why not decrease follower power

Or act rate

Summon stat is also needed for pacts

[nimble relic]

I mean sure if you want -90% act rate as base

[dusk sandal]

Why -90

Dude youre not making any sense sorry

[nimble relic]

Bc thats the -% for us on summon stat+also failrate

[devout garden]

On us

I thought this was a GS thread

[nimble relic]

Non summoners

Those that can use pets

You know

[surreal zodiac]

it is

they're just exploring the hypothetical scenario on a pet gsh variant

[devout garden]

#1410277906935975976 message

[nimble relic]

Just something that makes it fair bc non summoners are very heavily restricted on summons so summoners should not get pet for free

[surreal zodiac]

anyways since pets are not considered to be an option by the man himself, we'll just proceed with other options we could explore

as convenient the solution and quick it is, itll only complicate the balancing on whether what to give up and keep down the road

[dusk sandal]

We cant really procesd without input from odie tbh

[surreal zodiac]

yeah i want to know what he'll consider from the discussions so far

[dusk sandal]

My vote goes to either idea 3 or slapping a pet on top

The keith gameplay is still a bit intriguing but if done right a necromancer-esque gsh would be cooler. But then you gotta compensate for the lack of pet

[surreal zodiac]

im all down for option 3 in the buffing method, im just waiting for it to be acknowledged really that way we could focus on sustainability on hypa. Hopefully the main man would have some time to soon to check things here and give us some update.

[long glacier]

Thanks, i'm on it

[surreal zodiac]

option 3 will save us trust

[long glacier]

Summary

09.10.25

PvP

• HyPa is a potent offense spell, bypassing 2nd chance
  #1410277906935975976 message
• build discussion on how to utilize GSH 2nd chance
  #1410277906935975976 message
• GSH still lackluster in PvP def, also due to pact restrictions and summon spell AI
  #1410277906935975976 message

Suggestions

• Hydrus 2nd chance saccs all summons but one
  #1410277906935975976 message
• AI prioritizes summoning spells less e.g. in offensive spell heavy loadout
  #1410277906935975976 message

HyPa, HyPa... HyPa... Hy... Pa... ...
A whole lot of discussion on how to sustain HyPa and if GSH should be able to repeatedly fully AoE a field in the first place

• suggest full AoE pact weapon
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message
• how to sustain HyPa?
  #1410277906935975976 message

Problems?

• GSH not the same stats as Here?
  #1410277906935975976 message

---

What is the priority?

• t.buffs generation is the prority even at the cost of class identity
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message

Different suggestions for t.buff generation
#1410277906935975976 message

• Reverse Rhada is not desired due to high turn costs
• t.mag+/++/+++ from sacced/dying summons is accepted but viewed as less in line with the class as
• individual t.buffs depending on summons spell loadout is favoured amongst most and viewed as a very exciting possibility to bring depth to your summon choice

Notes
The discussion evolved around GSH's and HyPa's PvP potential. It went on about HyPa, how to sustain it, should full AoE be a thing, how would it be implemented. In the end pets popped up as a different approach.
All in all it felt like people would really love to see where we're going next with the update.

The answer to what the next top priority for beta GSH should be is

t.buff generation

and ppl loved to explore different approaches to the topic.

@lyric fjord ☝️

[hushed sedge]

Tbh if GSH is the side of GS gameplay that doesn't aim at keeping summon constantly alive, the pet option from previous rework could be viable

And I really want to have a use for this x2

[lyric fjord]

Beta server update:
Grand Summoner Hydrus can now generate buffs from equipped spells as summons are sacrificed

[hearty dove]

from the... summoners' equipped spells?

That's... interesting

To the testing chambers!

[lyric fjord]

yeah, let's try it

my other idea was adding some bloodflasks, charged from saccing

[hearty dove]

My first thought: I wonder how sanitized the equipped spells are

Will I get Neutra Manyalus

[lyric fjord]

bloodflask for aoe, t. buffs, etc

no, you will not

[hearty dove]

Loadout ready, let's see how this feels

[lyric fjord]

likely going to be too strong, but we're beta'ing

[hearty dove]

Oookay ten floors in worth of sacrificing and nothing has procced yet

Two dungeons now, nothing has procced yet

[lyric fjord]

how are you saccing?

[hearty dove]

HyPa2

I can try other spells

[lyric fjord]

hypa should work

i'll take a look

[hearty dove]

Yeah three dungeons now, using some sacrificial pacts too

This is the loadout I'm using

Didn't cast any of the buffs to see if it'd use either temp or permanent

[vital pebble]

deific and great meditation gonna go wild if it works decently often

[hearty dove]

should be 10% of the time per dead summon, and I don't know if it's 10% per spell slot, or 10% of the time a summon dies it picks a random spell slot

well currently it doesn't seem to work, but the former seems strong, the latter would require a lot of loadout thinning (and it'd feel bad if it could hit a slot you already have a buff like Jinn's Talent)

[lyric fjord]

fixed in 5ish

[hearty dove]

Sweet, I'll grab some cereal

[long glacier]

That's cereal business here!

[vital pebble]

now i want cinnamon toast crunch

[surreal zodiac]

hmm that's kinda similar to the option 3 from the suggested buffs, but we'll see how it'll go

let him cook now chat

[hearty dove]

If it's the first option, this is actually kind of very exciting

we'll be able to put some very underused spells to good use

And even specs (after all, we can only get great meditation from Maji)

Plus GS has some serious slot limitations so we'll have to think with what to put there

(Spell Slot amity come back pls)

[surreal zodiac]

maji & cataphract, berserker and raider are two that i could think of atm

[vital pebble]

maji is great for that with the extra slots

[hearty dove]

That is true

[surreal zodiac]

but we'll see, since this buffing method just got recently suggested we might be able to get t. buffs in some form sooner or later

so this new update + the upcoming t. buffs update soon

[vital pebble]

if you get a decent amity with slots as the 3rd buff it could help too

[hearty dove]

Do those actually still exist? lol

I thought they were so buggy they were scrapped

[vital pebble]

were they?

i might need to update my amity chart then lol

[hearty dove]

nono please do not take my word for it

I am very disconnected with amities, I'd sooner trust you

[vital pebble]

honostly i dont have 1 bc i never saw the use of it in general

so i never farmed for one

i got all the ones i wanted decently quick so i have hundreds of mnemonics to use lol

[long glacier]

It's working now

[surreal zodiac]

that looks pretty good ngl

[vital pebble]

nice, wish i could test it on my mirror

[long glacier]

It does take every status effect from every buff it seems

Like you can only get def-- from Jinn's

but not the mag++

[surreal zodiac]

i wish i have an orna account to mirror it lol ive been wanting to try it ever since

but i won't be able to mirror my main from hoa

[hearty dove]

Interesting, very interesting

[surreal zodiac]

oof, that might get fixed

[hearty dove]

so it seems it's a 10% chance to get any buff status effect whenever a summon dies to a pact

[long glacier]

Or debuff

[hearty dove]

and the chance is per status effect, rather than per summon

[surreal zodiac]

ugh so base from what i saw, continous stream of hypa can be also good for raids too yeah? it seems like it does very decent dps

[hearty dove]

that's good I think

Just finishing some turkey killing, I'll go back to testin

[long glacier]

I dunno wouldn't be receiving the whole effect of the spell as if casting it more benefitial.
As it is rn worst case i need 3 'rolls' on Jinn's to get mag++

[dusk sandal]

Damn if only aaru robe grave greater meditation to the player

[hearty dove]

I imagine that it works like
when a summon dies, you have a:
10% chance to get mag++
10% chance to get def--
10% chance to get res--
10% chance to get DC
(...)

but that's what it looks like to me

because you're getting a lot of procs, and if it were a 10% chance to get a random effect per dead summon, you'd be averaging one effect per three full hypas

[long glacier]

I'm interested in what happens to the chances of the effects you already have

Like casting Jinn's manually to avoid it's 3 effects

[surreal zodiac]

yeah lol, that'd be fun in a way this version of odie is kinda like similar to option 3 but its base on your own loadout and granted by chance upon a summon death

[hearty dove]

Okay so, it seems that equipping immunities (like Arch-Gadget and Arch-Gizmo) does not stop one from getting the negative effects from the passive

Also I'm not sure if I'm blind but I haven't noticed CR triggering at all in the past two dungeons

[hearty dove]

If I'm right as to how it functions, it shouldn't matter - you could potentially trigger all your buffs with a sacrificed summon if you were lucky enough

[long glacier]

CR proccs

[hearty dove]

I'll keep an extra eye out. It might not be proccing in a dungeon scenario, but thanks for confirming it does work

Okay yeah it procs

[hearty dove]

Oh also, sorry odie, but I do

(Neutra Barrialus in the top right as well)

[surreal zodiac]

lol

[surreal zodiac]

dam im kinda curious on how it performs with manyalus

i wanna see some footage

[hearty dove]

I think I figured it out
It won't proc if you oneshot the floor

I'll keep testing to confirm

[hearty dove]

Poorly, since HyPa and BL are already AoE, so all you're doing is halving your damage output

Okay yeah, so the new sacrificial effect feels good

But CR not triggering on floor oneshots doesn't. Hopefully that's just a bug that can be fixed

Since it doesn't trigger on floor oneshots, it means you won't replenish the summon field during the turns you have the good buffs up

By the time your buffs fade off, you have 1-2 summons to re-sacrifice to get them back up

[long glacier]

Oh my beta server is dying on me

[hollow plume]

pop a pancea

or try a fafnir

[dusk sandal]

john can you record a dungeon with the new sacrificial effects?

I know its gonna suck for me because I dont have yel staff in beta lol

[long glacier]

Experiencing the same

No CR when i oneshot floors

[hearty dove]

Sure gimme a bit

[long glacier]

With despair i really get cornered w/o fresh summons

[hearty dove]

🥖

[devout garden]

Ngl, that's beautiful

[hearty dove]

it was a pretty lucky run tbh

and it's only anguish 4

normally the lack of CR actually causes me to take some fat hits

[dusk sandal]

my perspective is probably distorted because Ive played heretic, but it doesnt look that impressive to me

but better than before

[surreal zodiac]

hmm even with dc + gm only 500k each?

but great nonetheless

its very easy to charge the passive now

[surreal zodiac]

i mean for uw this could be something

[hearty dove]

gear is not well optimised

[surreal zodiac]

overall this is certainly better than live gsh

[surreal zodiac]

i knew it, but yeah with the right gear and all buffs activated its safe to say that youll deal over a mil each mob

[hearty dove]

imho, if we get the CR thing settled, this is shippable

[surreal zodiac]

probably but i still wanted to at least make hypa hit 3 enemies even with 2 summons, it'd be sad to not being able to use beastfelled gears and aaru robe but ig this is already better than live gsh alr

[long glacier]

Yea, like mentioned before a CR check after the new PE summons spawned in would be great.

[gilded skiff]

What about a paired essence 5 or 6 (2 summon and 50% of 3rd or always 3) and no guidelight? With this gameplay guidelight doesn't seem that beneficial

[dusk sandal]

I would be in favor. Iirc with the old implementation it was the case that summons that were left behind charged your passive lol

but we all know what happened previously when we tried to remove guidelight

[gilded skiff]

Yeah but endless kids are not here anymore, and GS endless is too strong anyway

[hearty dove]

the issue with no guidelight is that it makes CR kinda worthless

What's the point of raising the dead at that point

I prefer the idea of accruing a small army as you go up the floors and then dumping them for a nuke // buffs // shield

[gilded skiff]

It would be useful in long fights where you can't use paired essence to help replenishing summons (raids/titans)

[surreal zodiac]

if we ship it the way it is now, then it'll be just bl2 spam for gsh don't get me wrong i love what im seeing rn and it makes my happy to see this boy perform well. But if possible, i want at least gsh to be able to hit 3 enemies on hypa while only having 2 summons. And i wanna see what would odie add to it as well, would we still get t. buffs even doe we have this now? we'll see. Just a little more changes and ill be fine to it being shipped out.

[nimble relic]

Intresting changes

[surreal zodiac]

btw i wonder if db2 and woo can be also accounted for it?

it'd be fun to see getting db2 or woo amidst of the battle

its not going to be guranteed but at least its out of the window

[dusk sandal]

82 al hcorv for comparison

[dusk sandal]

maybe we can still get pact aoe offhand spell 🙏

[surreal zodiac]

probably, im still hoping for it to be honest gsh looks better than ever rn but with aoe hypa like for me that would just be perfect

[long glacier]

Immunities, check

[hushed sedge]

Oh, that's interesting

[long glacier]

Works with swordplay too

[hushed sedge]

Sadly no arcane immunity exists so A.Mammon is still a nemesis

[gilded skiff]

I've been running my 80% arcane resistance amity for a while now !

[hushed sedge]

Can't be the only solution tbh

[gilded skiff]

You have band of god that can give you resistance as well

[hushed sedge]

Not enough, and still subpar solution considering you will likely need both to survive a few despair

[hearty dove]

Might test it later, but this change might actually have made GSH palpatable at raiding

Not only do we actually have access to t.mag+++ and dc passively like most classes

But we also have the benefit of not having to buff up, at the cost of having to summon

[gilded skiff]

which is pretty fair, other classes have to buff but not to summon

[hearty dove]

a SD - Hypa cycle right off the bat might be pretty decent for a fast raid rotation

Also something worth testing, but I don't have the items in beta (I could get them though given time)

Do items' innate buffs also have a chance of being applied on sacrifice?

like will I have a very good chance at proccing an imagination's berserk?

or t.all+ from askr gear

[dusk sandal]

I tested a imag but after 10 hypas with 3+ summons on the field I didnt get one buff so seems like that doesnt work

[gilded skiff]

Imagination can give a lot of buffs but it took me a lot of time to just get a light resistance, so I suppose it doesn't work too

[surreal zodiac]

go forth my lovely beta testers, test it all out and give all your feed backs here

i wanna read some more

https://tenor.com/view/ferass18-gif-7869831930024597864

[dusk sandal]

How would you make it work for higher ang dungeons tho. The debuffs from jinn are really bad there. You also cant really have mimics in there for similar reasons. Greater magic tonic? Lol

[surreal zodiac]

the gadget should be able to stop it but since it just came out i'd give it a few more days prolly for odie to fix

what i would probably do is hypa first turn clear some little jits in the field to lessen the risk and then manually buff for jinn's talent or mimics

[dusk sandal]

And if youre forced into maji for T mag 3 then you also dont have the safety of additional turns like on dof. Those have been really clutch sometimes for me on here

[long glacier]

Maji

[surreal zodiac]

what i would do in that scenario is equip 1 lugus and 1 trev, i think lugus would proc more than you having it in your inventory

since my fss already have a 15% two handed bonus

[dusk sandal]

But even if you manually buff, how do you prevent getting the debuff. Just not use hypa?

[surreal zodiac]

hmm it never crossed my mind that once u manually buff the malus would never occur lol ig its inevitable whether u manually buff or not

it'd be much better if odie either only allows positve buff to be transferred or let gadgets work

[surreal zodiac]

thats pretty fast

[surreal zodiac]

now gsh looks like a proper raider

[dusk sandal]

I want to see how it performs at agony 20 ish but Im not that high in the beta lol

[surreal zodiac]

yeah that's a shame, with a stable stream of hypa this would be bussin ngl

[dusk sandal]

I think survivability at that agony is not feasible

[surreal zodiac]

bp at ang 20

[surreal zodiac]

i'd say that overall it took me 40 secs

kill + set up

i died a few times before being able to summon my ad but its pretty fun

i wanna see how hypa performs on the same ang lvl

[dusk sandal]

I dont see gsh beating that. But I suppose the focus is now aoe

[surreal zodiac]

yep, its just fun to see that gsh with hypa can raid decently

[dusk sandal]

Hypa exposes you way more

[surreal zodiac]

like how beoH can do ultima and ss3

[surreal zodiac]

truly

and considering how gsh doesn't have a summon protect passive, we're cooked at high ang raiding

[gilded skiff]

At high anguish summon protect is not a thing anyway

[surreal zodiac]

i just wanna see this baby with a better cr and full aoe hypa

[dusk sandal]

Do you think mel 20 is feasible?

[surreal zodiac]

the way it is now? i'd say yeah not gonna be super easy you'll struggle to mammon still esp if its a zerk, but it aint gonna be that hard either

ang at 14 my mammon foe have like 1.3m hp

i just insta use bp on that

[gilded skiff]

And on that?

[surreal zodiac]

that aint even a zerk twin 🤞 🥀

i mean i'd be fine if i met some road blocks at that mel level

at least its a reasonable level to struggle or lose to

but if its like 15 below? bruh why

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bEUYRXzwtMM
this is how it performs currently on live for my mel 12 dgns

compared to what we have now in beta i'd say gsh is most likely to perform a lot better vs live gsh on higher mel

[dusk sandal]

Yeah

[surreal zodiac]

if john had a perfect gear + dof more survivability esp against mammons you'd mostly like proc a turn after killing a horde for u to use a high damage spell to take out mammon

[dusk sandal]

But that's a very low bar lol

[surreal zodiac]

and we're gonna raise it with AOE HYPA BABY

hopefully

im still praying

[hearty dove]

Reminder that dof means no maji means no t.mag+++

[surreal zodiac]

yeah but i'd resort to lugus, and just use a enchanted boots with 2h boost

[gilded skiff]

But not running bof will be dangerous when you wont be able to rely on BL2

[dusk sandal]

Yeah that's a bit of a drawback of this approach. Other classes can use oracle for higher damage or dof for more turns on top of aaru robe

[surreal zodiac]

you could proc lugus much quicker with that cus you're getting too much buffs yeah?

[hearty dove]

There is room to slot in luguses yeah

[surreal zodiac]

yeah but i rarely run dof on my gsh, i would rather just use oracle but some people here might like dof for extra turns

[dusk sandal]

Dof can save your butt tho. When you dont oneshot a strong mob on a floor you can kill it with extra turns from weak mobs

[devout garden]

Or if you miss one

[surreal zodiac]

im running oracle on this one too but dmg isnt that as impressive, its just enough

[dusk sandal]

Or if it second chances with the ang malus

[devout garden]

True

[gilded skiff]

Remaining summons might be able to take them down if they are not 0'ed

[dusk sandal]

But on gsh they are surely 0d

[devout garden]

Ngl, these temp buff changes have really done it for us, loved watching those dungeon and raiding clips

Even if it's not final yet

[dusk sandal]

Imagine if aaru robe and beastfelled garb gave the player zerk and tmag too. Nobody except gsh would manually cast that anyway

[surreal zodiac]

and oh btw the stats for gsh hasnt been fixed yeah?

like it aint matched with heretic yet?

might be able to get some little improvement for the dmg output

[dusk sandal]

No but 82 mag isnt going to make that big of a difference

[surreal zodiac]

oh only 82 dam

double it and give it to the next gsh main

[devout garden]

#1410277906935975976 message

They are really close now, just not the exact same

[dusk sandal]

It feels like there is insane potential for gear to synergize with this but it doesnt really exist yet. Aaru robe,beastfelled etc dont work. A imag, askr dont work. The main thing has been greater meditation from maji and zerk 1 and 2 if youre berserker

[surreal zodiac]

yeah pretty much those ones for now

dam option 3 from t. buffs? is this you?

i see some gaps u gotta feel twin 🥀 make that aaru robe and beastfelled work for us

[final oar]

gonna take a lot of gsh players (unfortunately there are none

[nimble relic]

Can you pull out tdex+++ from realmshift

[ornate nacelle]

Just realized that Life Siphon and DoT is temporaly suspended when using HyPa..
🤔
Even if trigger, recovering health goes to sacrificed summons which is already dead..

[ornate nacelle]

Auto buff maybe good with charmer I guess..

[long glacier]

Doesn't seem like it. Could be very bad rng but i don't think so since it doesn't state 'Give: t.dex+++' in the skill description.

[ornate nacelle]

Well yeah, it's fun..

[long glacier]

I just want to point out 2 niche skills for this

• Battle Dance, covers all basic single ups
• Swordplay, covers all basic t.single ups

[hearty dove]

I do quite fancy those, they're not very used anymore but they fill a niche now which is cool

That being said, the defensive side isn't very useful when Jinns forces def-- and res--
(And then you pile snotra on top of that)

In the end it's not functionally that different from Wyvern Speed and Wyrm Song

[long glacier]

Except the odds of the buffs are taken into account too.

Then they'd be pretty bad

[hearty dove]

Are they actually? I couldn't tell at a glance, and it feels pretty hard to test

[long glacier]

I don't know, one would've to run stuff like Barrier2 and compare it to Battle Dance proccs

But you wouldn't get more than a feeling

[ornate nacelle]

From ability desc..
10% status effect, maybe 10% for single sacrificed summon or just flat 10% chance?
It did not work outside HyPa (?)

[fast garnet]

Go charge your phone bro

5%

[long glacier]

Only in (phone)death testing duty ends💀

[ornate nacelle]

That's fun if chance got increased..

[devout sedge]

That's actually fitting of a necromancer

[hearty dove]

If only it were the summons that got the reraise. Then you'd be able to use them as ammo twice

.. ... ...
..... ..... that's actually not impossible is it
If you wear full yelmogus gear, 45% spread chance whenever you get reraise 🤔

It.. doesn't work very well heh
When you trigger it you only have 2-1 summons left, and you need it to fade from you before you can spread it again

[long glacier]

Rhada it?

[hearty dove]

Sometimes I feel very very stupid

This time is one of those times lol

[long glacier]

Gotcha🫂

But that's again a turn invested you could simply cast summon dead lol

[hearty dove]

Haha whoops

HyPa don't care

[hearty dove]

Well, SD gives you up to 3 summons, ReRhada would give up to 5

Assuming no CR procs, if you want to never waste damage by saccing 2 instead of 3 summons, you want to HyPa-SD-HyPa-SD

With ReRaise (if it worked), you'd do
HyPa-SD-HyPa (until reraise procced)
And then SD - Rhada - HyPa - HyPa - HyPa

The former has an average of 0.5 HyPer turn, the latter a bit more

Likely not worth it due to being forced into cleric but a fun thought

[dusk sandal]

Gsh pvp def ai still seems to love spamming summons and it doesnt seem fixable with inclinations

[dusk sandal]

Current state is you are still forced to be temu heretic (scythe, chakram etc.) or ss3 because ai wont use hypa. And even if you use those non-hypa builds gsh will spam summons

[ornate nacelle]

They use Hypa, but still love summoning spells..

[dusk sandal]

it doesnt require 3 summons on the field anymore to use?

seems like it still does. I cant get the ai to use it reliably at all

which makes it useless on defense

[ornate nacelle]

Maybe that's the reason ai GSH reluctantly to use Hypa if it's less than 3 summons or not filling entire slot with their summons..

[dusk sandal]

but tbh even if it didnt require 3 summons to use, I think hypa still wouldnt be usable on defense. The following outcomes are possible if someone oneshots you: you die, parapet procs or second chance procs. If parapet (20% chance) procs then the AI could use hypa in theory. But if your second chance procs, your field is sacrificed anyway and I dont think CR can proc until after your turn, which means your AI wouldnt be able to use hypa anyway because there's no summons

so I think we must still use magic spells or SS3

but even then, the AI still wont use those skills because it tends to spam summons 🫠

but you need the summons in order to have second chance..

ideal solution for me would be if second chance doesnt kill all summons but leaves 1 alive (except if there's only 1 left). Then if we change it so AI can use HyPa if there is 1 or more summon on the field, then we could actually use hypa on defense

but it still wouldnt solve the issue of ai spamming summons

[long glacier]

The last part.
Imo only if this is solved we can start to look at the rest of its shortcomes.

[dusk sandal]

yeah,but even with 3 summons on the field its still spamming basic attack for me

idk why the ai behavior is so weird with pacts

is hypa not considered an offense spell making the CA spam prevention logic trigger?

[ornate nacelle]

Have you tried it under Saboteur?

[dusk sandal]

I tried default, paladin and saboteur

[ornate nacelle]

My guess would be Hypa it's not on final stage..
My recently test on raid and dungeon is weird..
When summoner use Hypa, you don't get DoT or recover from life siphon instead of your summons got that effect..
It's different from BP..

[fast garnet]

That looks quite op...

Could someone explain the logic behind big damage from low hp summons?

Would make sense if you would summon hydras or dragons with high hp

But skeletons?

[long glacier]

To avoid any interaction with summon stats thus AL summons, Hydrus pact does damage per number of summons sacrificed, doing most dmg when 3 summons are sacced.

Instead of BP the hurdle for HyPa is to cater a constant stream of summons to sacrifice.

Plus when you overdo it and off all of your summons you become a punching bag yourself.

[dusk sandal]

hes trolling again

[fast garnet]

Oh that makes sense

I cant test it myself sadly thats why im asking

[long glacier]

Oh what's hindering you?

[hearty dove]

Nice bird sounds

[fast garnet]

I dont play orna

And i dont know how to get hydrus xD

On test server

[hearty dove]

The same way you get it outside a test server? Build the tower guild, and buy it

[fast garnet]

Please be nice to people

[dusk sandal]

to call hypa OP when ss3, ultima and bp exist is kinda ridiculous lol

[fast garnet]

I dont know how its done in orna

[hearty dove]

Could've just asked :p

[fast garnet]

Where in my message did you see a clear statement or the word "OP"?

[hearty dove]

Go to your build menu, set your current area as your Origin Town

and then all the guild's buildings will be available to build

Build the tower guild, then buy hydrus

[fast garnet]

Could you tell me how?

Wait

Ima try that

Thanks for help man

[long glacier]

Not that you have to unlock t10 summoner first in your class menu

[fast garnet]

Where do i click?

[hearty dove]

Close that menu

it's on the top left of your screen when you're looking at the world

[fast garnet]

One sec

How do i teleport back to origin town?

😭

[long glacier]

You can only do so when you built a Wayvessel in your OT

[ornate nacelle]

It's close to that with auto status effect ability..

OP in terms of rng..

[dusk sandal]

its like 2 turns per usage

you are a deity main right? Is it really competitive with dursa or dara raiding?

I have my doubts hypa will be viable at higher agony

its a lot riskier than BP due to the fact that you clear a portion of summons from the field every time

at low / medium agony (20 and below) it seems also worse than qc ultima on heretic corvus. Ultima is like similar if not more damage than hypa, except its 1 turn with QC and synergizes with stuff like crit poise. Hypa is effectively a 2 turn move due to it requiring summons on the field every time

and sure the effects are nice, but maji means no sequencer for 20% higher mag stat and 20% doublecast chance. While on other classes TMM + aaru robe gives you T mag^3 without sacrificing sequencer

but I digress. Ig it's not meant to be a raiding class anyway considering the current focus on aoe

[fast garnet]

Hello Pie

How are you? All good?

[ornate nacelle]

I'm a bit jack of all trades..
Playing all class and hoc to other class if something new come..

[ornate nacelle]

There is a way to get around it..
Except for raids that immune to petrify and stasis..

[dusk sandal]

if you're resorting to stasis I still think BP would be the better choice than hypa

[ornate nacelle]

It's mix of both..
I don't know if achlys and charon pact can trigger auto status effect..

It seems only Hypa can trigger auto status effect ability..

[ornate nacelle]

It still useful to get t.all 3..
That's on agony 70 with 6 AL..

[long glacier]

Imo it should trigger by any pact that offs summons

[ornate nacelle]

I already testing it since auto status been added..
Sacri pact 2, charon and achlyss pact didn't even trigger it..
Maybe that 10% is a flat chance not for each summon..

[subtle tusk]

Doing some testing right now and idk if someone noticed it already, but when I sacrifice summons, sometimes only the res/defense part of jinns procs

And I don't get the buff of it

maybe it just singles out every part of every buff and gives it randomly? I'm not sure but it's weird

[nimble relic]

Use gadget

The def res immu

[subtle tusk]

that's obvious I'm just asking if this is intentional

[nimble relic]

It is

[subtle tusk]

I mean that I sacrifice skeletons and I just get the debuffs

No buffs

shouldn't it all activate at once

[nimble relic]

Nope

Its x% per status/buff

[subtle tusk]

Alright good to know thanks

[nimble relic]

And i think it also respects the proc chance of the buffs?

I could be wrong tho

[dusk sandal]

#1410277906935975976 message

you cant do anything about getting debuffs except not equip the spell

[nimble relic]

Ah

Weird tho

[ornate nacelle]

Change spec to bard/charmer, and put song/sonata in with appease..
Fun in mel 6/7 below shackled ascension..
😅

[nimble relic]

Sounds broken

[devout sedge]

Charmer actually works nicely

The weird thing is that it works with apex skills and CR doesn't procc if you clean the floor

Also i feel a pact that refill ward and gives ward turns by saccing summons would be nice and tematic

And it being a rework on sacrificial pact would be ideal imo

• sac pact 1, sacrifice 1 summon, it heals you, gives 10% ward and 1 ward turn
• sac pact 2, sacrifice all summons, heals you, gives 10% per summon sacrificed, gives ward turns per summon sacrificed

[surreal zodiac]

how much damage are you producing?

[devout sedge]

In the end, apart for some adjusting like deciding if apex skills working with it is intentional or not, i feel that PE should get a boost on the line of "at the start you summon the first 2 summons and you have 50% to get a third summon if you have 3 summon spells equipped" since CR is not proccing when you clear a floor

[devout sedge]

With both DC and Mag3 around 300k

I don't remember if I had snotra on

[surreal zodiac]

each per mob or total damage?

[devout sedge]

Per mob

[surreal zodiac]

not too bad

[devout sedge]

I have around 7.5 k mag

Can't test bl2 on beta, i was using despair

[ornate nacelle]

You can even do fast raid clearance with Hypa..
It only need summon dead -> Hypa..
Depends on spec, amity and your spells load out..

[devout sedge]

I didn't test raids tbf, but if we get fast raids as a byproduct i wouldn't really mind, you are still frail and more exposed then GS and GSA

[vital pebble]

anthem alone would be super powerful from charmer

considering it has every base buff

[devout sedge]

I put anthem and sonata of magic to get magic up faster

[vital pebble]

multiple skills increase the chance?

[devout sedge]

You have chance to procc from 2 different sources

At least I thought of it like that

Having DC and channelalus seemed to procc all3 more times than with just DC

[vital pebble]

interesting

to be fair it could just have been luck, but if it works like that, thats crazy good

[devout sedge]

Yeah I know but I don't really have the time to test it extensively to see if it's luck or not

[surreal zodiac]

how much al do u have on beta?

[devout sedge]

21, these are the stats, it was 8.5k mag actually

[surreal zodiac]

not bad for that amount of dmg

[devout sedge]

Didn't manage to get a mag3 procc

[fast garnet]

Lol, GSH is starting to look like an upgrade to deity

Like copy of deity but with summons

That can still use weapon skills and has summon protection

Looks very strong, not gonna lie

Looking forward to how it will look in the end

[vital pebble]

i wonder if the auto summon can summon the darkrifts

[fast garnet]

No

Because you need apex for that

[devout garden]

You can get the buffs from some apex spells via sacrificing summons

So who knows

It might also work that way with CR and the apex summons

#1410277906935975976 message

[devout sedge]

you can see barrialus buffs on me, i doubt that it's intended

[devout sedge]

wouldn't say that, I'm still made of paper

[fast garnet]

Could u show gear?

Yeah but the summon protect helps

And that "souls %" is a copy of dAra's thingy apex %

[devout garden]

That souls % was in-game before they added apex

[devout sedge]

go a couple of messages up

[surreal zodiac]

pretty much, i dont think 2nd chance is proccing as often like deity?

still can't use besatfelled doe

and i don't think woo procs as well when a summon die

[devout sedge]

I think I never had it procc but because I never got to the point I needed it

[long glacier]

Beta GSH has no battalions and HyPa saccs your summons, there's pretty much next to no reliable summon protection

[surreal zodiac]

one zerk immo or anything thats zerk really

could 1 tap you if they're mad enough

[pine garnet]

ZERK SUMMS?

How devious

Chance to summon zerks might be good

[dusk sandal]

ofc hes trolling in saying its as strong as deity lol, nowhere near

[ornate nacelle]

Yes..

[surreal zodiac]

yeah deity could easily produce a ton of damage, gsh will never go into that level

buffing is only convenient and nice, and also charging the passive with a semi aoe hypa really help speed things up

but you'd be still force to go maji and ditch the oracle spec for bl2 set ups, cus t. mag ^^^ would give more dmg output

having a t. buff source would really help gsh out to produce as much dmg as a glass cannon

[surreal zodiac]

but if hypa was full aoe or semi aoe that can hit 3 enemies while only having 2 summons, dof would be ideal + t. buff source

[vital pebble]

with charon not the base auto 2 summon

[ornate nacelle]

It is not from PE4..
That's from Charon Ritual..

[vital pebble]

nice

[subtle tusk]

Yeah but that's not intentional probably

And apex skill buffs proccing probably isn't intentional either

[surreal zodiac]

can somebody try a run with mimics mischief? i wanna see how it'll perform

[long glacier]

Want to see ppl being cursed over and over again?

Interestingly i did not get cursed

[surreal zodiac]

doesnt seem so bad

no curse at all

keep trying in some other runs to see if itll proc at all, if it doesnt or has a really low probability it might be better option than jinn's talent

[long glacier]

Yea, maybe i was just lucky

[surreal zodiac]

damn that was actually

pretty bad...

yeah jinn's talent it is

[devout sedge]

i have to say charmer is pretty nice since you don't have debuffs

[long glacier]

But you miss out on soooo much dmg

[surreal zodiac]

i'd just embrace the jinn's talent

[dusk sandal]

honestly for higher mel I dont think I would use either. The risk of getting nuked is very high with double downs on you

greater magic tonic

[surreal zodiac]

if gsh stays this way, i'd honest just hypa til i get 100% then use bl2 to clear everything

so i dont get any debuffs

i don't wanna go broke, i only have 300+ great magic tonic

[dusk sandal]

but you will still get the debuffs while charging your passive then

[surreal zodiac]

yeah but before i get to t10 bosses i'd probably have 100%, really wish that debuffs doesnt count or proc at all

[dusk sandal]

and if you dont hypa to maintain the buffs you wont have dc and t mag3 up either

where do yall think gsh lands in terms of aoe capabilities in the current state?

[surreal zodiac]

yeah u right, welp inevitable

[dusk sandal]

for dungeons I'd say it's like this assuming current beta gsh (take with a grain of salt because I havent played every class lol):
1: deity (ara)
2: heretic (corvus)
3: realm (corvus)
4: beo (hydrus)
5: gs (hydrus)
6: gigla (ursa)

[surreal zodiac]

i think this list is pretty alright

[dusk sandal]

and Im not necessarily complaining. It's already better than live gsh. Live gsh would be below gigla in that list for sure. It's just that the other classes have some other gimmick that makes them stronger, like the ara temp buff passive combined with staying power, crit poise or HM3/bb1. The gsh temp buff passive is basically our equivalent of pet buffs, but that was already something the other classes got for free

[surreal zodiac]

currently from what i can see from gsh right now, it can do dungeons much conveniently cus of thew new passive. If cr gets some sort auto summon increase for hypa sustainability it can also be decent for raids. Pvp is alright, defensive ai is meh but offensive is really good (i hope there's something we could do about that). World farming could be better if hypa could hit 3 enemies while having 2 summons, then u need some damage u just summon dead (full hypa aoe would be nice through the use of items like a weapon). For towers, pretty much the same as world farming, if u can only hit 3 enemies while having 2 summons. Over it is an improvement to live GSH, but there's still improvements to look forward to.

[surreal zodiac]

pretty much yeah, we are forced to go maji for t. mag ^^^

and wouldve been nice if u could just go oracle for more dmg output

and then be able to get t. mag ^^^ from something (option 3 from the buff suggestion)

[dusk sandal]

I would still go DoF in that case tbh

[surreal zodiac]

yeah but i prefer to just 1 shot them all, but dof aint bad too for extra turns and clutch

regardless, having a t. buff source while not being forced to rely on maji or lugus would be nice

cus lugus aint 100% guaranteed t. mag ^^^

itll give u att from time to time

[dusk sandal]

but yeah, currently the only seemingly viable way to get strong buffs from the passive is by using specs like maji or berserker. I do kinda like that, since it makes those lesser used specs more viable. But other classes get zerk and tmag3 from a piece of gear without being forced to specswap; we definitely have to give up more than those classes do (its pretty much free for them lol)

[dusk sandal]

well if you oneshot and the mob second chances you can still be cooked. DoF reduces the chance of that happening

[surreal zodiac]

yeah u got a point, its probably a good time to put that gsh 2nd chance passive to work

[dusk sandal]

btw another orna specific problem not many people have brought up: other classes have the ability to use RS Dorado to enter a dungeon, which you would use to have higher view distance and see more dungeons. Other classes can just enter as rs dorado and then swap to the other class freely. You can still kinda do that as gs, but you have no summons so the chances of you surviving are definitely a lot lower

[surreal zodiac]

i see, well that sucks

you WILL get popped easily

[dusk sandal]

yeah, it's one of the things Ive been taking advantage of when playing as heretic. I can get a lot more dungeons now that I wouldnt be able to get on GS

[surreal zodiac]

yeah that'd be a problem for the orna side, but this won't affect us on hoa side tis gonna suck for u guys to have not more dgns

[hearty dove]

I'd like to see how it feels to run a GSH dungeon with CR being "fixed" (so that it works in oneshot floors)

Because that feels like the biggest impairment currently

When other classes' temps fall off, the pets immediately recast them

When ours do, we have to HyPa and hope it procs. But due to how CR doesn't proc between floors, we'll have 1 or 2 summons out by the time our t.buffs run out

[ornate nacelle]

Rng being good with only 6 AL..

[surreal zodiac]

casted twice?

[dusk sandal]

sequencing amity

[surreal zodiac]

i see

never knew that i could work with 2h weapons

never used it

[dusk sandal]

ngl, that doesnt look great tho. But maybe thats because its despair and not bl2

[surreal zodiac]

yeah and i dont think gear is anguished as well so yeah

[dusk sandal]

look at how risky it still is

[surreal zodiac]

true

barely survived the fight

[devout sedge]

List of specs that HyPa can pull buffs from:

• Maji: t mag3 without lugus
• Berserker/Raider: zerks 1 to 3
• Chronomancer: foresight up
• Charmer: buffs without def and res downs, temp buffs 1
• High Cleric with headless gear: reraise on yourself
• Cataphract: elemental resistances
• Inquisitor: blessed shield and t crit 2

Imo for the moment charmer is the one that felt better, just for not having stat downs

High cleric could be a niche defence strat to make enemy lose time

Inquisitor mught be useful early on for people that don't reach the 100% crit

Maji is maybe a little better than charmer since lugus is kinda random, but the stats down make you even squishier

[devout sedge]

Togheter with this, which is a priority for me, I think we need to address a way to upkeep ward, without spamming ward of ortanite at the start

[devout garden]

I mean, it’s also anguish 10 with only 6AL

[dusk sandal]

ang 10 is not that high

But its also despair and not bl2 so it's kinda hard to compare

[devout garden]

Mirrors when 😔

[dusk sandal]

Fr

I can already tell that it's worse by a decent margin than my hcorv, but hcorv is one of the best classes at bl2 mel I feel like.

Like idk what the baseline is supposed to be

#1410277906935975976 message
this is where I think gsh ranks in terms of aoe capabilities

I might be underrating gilga tho. It doesnt seem that good at full aoe but maybe it pulls ahead at higher ang

[ornate nacelle]

If BL2 going to be adjusted in future, it might even worse than that..
Limited options and easy to get exposed because too many factor relate with summons needs to die..

[fast garnet]

It's not an if, Odie himself confirmed that it "needs a haircut"

[long glacier]

Summary

14.10.25

Patchy!

• Hydrus gives a 10% chance per sacrificed summon on a random status effect from your spell loadout
  #1410277906935975976 message

Uhhh about Hydrus t.buffs

• how does it work? Is it 10% per spell slot, 10% when a summon is sacced, smth different?
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message
• are the odds of the buffs from their loadout spells taken into account too?
  #1410277906935975976 message
• does slotting multiple spells with the same buff increase its odds?
• what pacts should trigger the t.buff generation effect?
  #1410277906935975976 message
• equipping immunities does not prevent negative status effects
  #1410277906935975976 message
• Apex buffs work too
  #1410277906935975976 message

Problems?

• CR doesn't procc when you oneshot a floor
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message

Suggestions

• CR check after new PE summons spawn on the next floor
  #1410277906935975976 message
• status immunity gear should prevent negative effects from Hydrus
  #1410277906935975976 message

Notes
Ppl really like the changes to the Hydrus passive. They played around with it and had many questions about how it exactly works.
It seems there are some kinks to iron out.

@lyric fjord👆

[lyric fjord]

Okay, there was way too much to manage with that iteration of the passive

it is now updated to use a fixed list of temporary buffs and chances

[hearty dove]

Shame

Understandable, but shame

[long glacier]

Okay i see all basic t.buff +/++/+++

[devout garden]

So no more permanent buffs?

[vital pebble]

tbh thats kinda nuts

[long glacier]

Doesn't look like it.
Soooo
-- t.all from deific
-- perma buffs
-- all the nutty spec buffs

• no negative status effects
• massive defensive t.buffs
• t.mag ++
• free t.mag+++

[surreal zodiac]

would love to see some dgn clips

[hearty dove]

Expect performance to be a little worse than previously showcased, with a bit of a longer setup

[hearty dove]

Since you now need to cast your basic buffs, and can no longer get t.all+++

plus CR still doesn't trigger on cleared floors as far as I can tell

[long glacier]

What's the best way to use the t.att buffs?

Since i need a mag spell (HyPa) to trigger them

[hearty dove]

I'd say Rhada, but, uh, yeah

[long glacier]

That's on oracle

[hearty dove]

||oof one minute of gameplay only to die on floor 7||

[long glacier]

2x speed

So nearly 4min at Ang10

[subtle tusk]

T.att is a bit weird yeah

[long glacier]

Ang 1

Ang 1 is better obviously but i don't really need it.

[devout garden]

So it doesn't take into account the buffs we have in the loadout, it's just random temp buffs of the basic types?

[long glacier]

Yes

[dusk sandal]

💀

[hearty dove]

it is a bit of a shame since I was really looking forward to the previous iteration, but it makes sense to scrap it. It'd be a lot of work to keep it balanced, both in the current and future patches

As odie would have to be careful anytime he introduced a new buff

[dusk sandal]

ig because it was more difficult to balance?

this current iteration seems grossly underpowered tho

[hearty dove]

Maybe it was also a struggle to get it to work with apex spells

[hearty dove]

Still better than having no temp buffs, but yes. It isn't great

[dusk sandal]

with that mindset gsh is never going to be a class that people want to use

[hearty dove]

The downtime is frequent, and the setup inconvenient

[hearty dove]

-# Shit he's onto me

[long glacier]

I had a 50% positive duration amity

[hearty dove]

Fwiw I can clear anguish 10 on GSA much faster and safer

[devout garden]

Sorry about all the questions, but how is that damage so low?

Like, 40k with that many buffs on is crazy

[dusk sandal]

the thing to keep in mind that other player based damage classes have their flavor passives AND pets. Whatever gsh gets needs to be at least on par with the power pets provide

which is a lot

[long glacier]

Hmmm i have -8% multi target dmg on Mel Paths

30% arcane amity, 50% pos status duration

AL 98

[devout garden]

☠️

[lyric fjord]

we'll get there, folks

[long glacier]

What's really missing compared to the previous passive?
t.all+++
perm buffs
?

I mean perm buffs are just convenience

[lyric fjord]

t. all is currently in there, albeit low chance

[long glacier]

Oh

[dusk sandal]

honestly I dont think perm buffs are a must, but losing DC is a big downside

[lyric fjord]

^

[long glacier]

Never had t.all once, gonna milk that cactus

[dusk sandal]

that is t all^3 or t all^1

[lyric fjord]

DC

can buff the proc rate

and remove att

granted, att is free and can open hybrid building up

yeah, i'll leave it

[dusk sandal]

considering heretic corvus dragon tail sweep kinda worked, maybe it'll work too for gsh

[hearty dove]

Do you think you'd be capable of changing CR so that it triggers between floors Odie?

That's really, personally, the #1 dampener of fluid gameplay

[lyric fjord]

what does that mean?

[dusk sandal]

But CR not triggering on floor oneshots doesn't. Hopefully that's just a bug that can be fixed

[long glacier]

#1410277906935975976 message
under Problems and Suggestions.

Also i'm slapping cactus for like 10min now

[lyric fjord]

yes, but what does CR not "triggering" mean?

[hearty dove]

Ah, so if you oneshot a floor, the CR's chance of autosummoning does not roll

or, well, I imagine the stage at which it rolls is past that

[lyric fjord]

hmm...i don't see why it wouldn't

[hearty dove]

so if I oneshot let's say, floors 1-15, which is common because they're the low tier floors

I'll still only have 2 summons

I haven't had any success seeing it summon on a floor oneshot, though technically I can't confirm it because it's a chance

And confirming a lack of a chance is a nightmare of probabilities and statistics 😅

[lyric fjord]

just grab 1000 samples, easy

[hearty dove]

While not accidentally confusing near-one-shots (second chance into a burning enemy who dies immediately, per example) as part of the sample size

[lyric fjord]

as far as i can tell, CR will trigger on any turn, regardless of if it ends the battle or not

[hearty dove]

I'll see if I can get a showcase

[lyric fjord]

the code fires before the battle-is-over check, so it shouldn't matter

[long glacier]

From floor 4 to 17

[lyric fjord]

i'll give it a spin

[hearty dove]

The only times CR procced, were times where an enemy second chanced (or I missed)

[long glacier]

And can we have the check at the start of a turn, after the PE check?

It's somewhat inconvenient if you clear your board with HyPa and start your next floor with one summons instead of 2 cause CR proccs before PE

[hearty dove]

Oh yeah, having the check be start of turn would fix a lot of issues huh

[lyric fjord]

CR only procs at the end of your turn, PE procs at the start of battle

so, if you have a summon and thus cancelliing PE, then CR proc'd on the last turn of the previous battle

[hearty dove]

By default start of turn should be after PE check since PE is start of floor

[hearty dove]

Yeah, Kaine is asking if it'd be possible to have it Start of Turn instead of End of Turn, because the end of turn proc is sometimes preventing PE

Oh yeah actually, now that I think about it

how does that happen?

Cancelling PE is because you HyPa'd a floor and cleared with it

Doesn't that necessitate CR triggering on a cleared floor?

Is HyPa doing funny things with End of Turn triggers lol

[long glacier]

Yes, that's how i understand it i just want ppl to avoid starting a new floor (a new battle) with only one instead of two possible summons.

Hence i'm asking to change the CR procc at the start of a battle/turn after PE check.

[dusk sandal]

I think this might be it tbh

[hearty dove]

Oh shit HyPa might be triggering End of Turn effects (maybe thrice, even?)
Would explain why it seems like it triggers CR often

But that's something I can DEFINITELY not confirm

[dusk sandal]

maybe it counts as the summons turns

[lyric fjord]

this also invalidates the ask for CR proccing at the end of battle, no?

[hearty dove]

that is ENTIRELY speculation

[hearty dove]

Two birds one stone

[lyric fjord]

i'm getting CRs on full clears, fwiw

[long glacier]

With what did you clear?

HyPa or off hand?

[hearty dove]

HyPa doesn't count, apparently (Because the issue seems to be happening with non-hypa sources)

Nice sprite by the way

[dusk sandal]

leitmotif

[hearty dove]

Yeah no that's working

So why is it not working for us?

Both kaine and I posted videos of approximately a combined 24 floors of it not proccing a 35% chance

[long glacier]

Do you have PE as creator?

[lyric fjord]

nm, i see it - code diff in branches

git merge strikes again

[hearty dove]

There's something really funny about the dev sending a video of proof for bug fixing