Grand Summoner Hydrus Rework

[median harness]

But with comparable stats to Heretic and with some souls stockpiled, should be able to eat a hit or two even if your summons all go poof

[dull gale]

If it activates on the hydrus passive it won't matter because they are most effective summoned by Auriga, they're primarily aggressive damagers. I've had best results summoning on an auriga with as much % as I have.
Hydrus will benefit from stuff like cockatrice, skeletons or beithir that run status support.

• though if they implement a buff stealing passive like people want, summons like macaroni penguin and tower guardian will probably be more desired.

[hushed sedge]

I'm not the only one having problems handling A.mammon on GS, after despair rework, then

[lethal pasture]

Lmao even with my 250k ward GSA, A.mammon is the bane to my existence and the main reason I chose not to convert to ang 2.0 on my main

If you don't one-two tap A.mammon, you might as well say goodbye to your summons then yourself, evil stuffs

[long glacier]

80% arcane res amity helps

[vital pebble]

so it hits you first

so its probably in placement order like the summons

but looks like it hits all at once

[mystic matrix]

this might be something else entirely. I think what happens here is it displays 10k damage but deals less damage because a few of the summons die before the summoner is targeted and thus my mirror has higher res from the hydrus passive

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[vital pebble]

talking about someones question earlier of aoe if it kills you even with summons out on aoe

[mystic matrix]

yeah i went to try that but found another thing

[vital pebble]

ah

[mystic matrix]

second chanced twice lol

[long glacier]

Rookie numbers

Can confirm this HP oddity after 2nd chance plus when everyone is hit you survive.
Here it simply didn't procc
#1410277906935975976 message

[long glacier]

I have an explanation and a consitency.
If you either die by AoE or single target dmg, you're hit first.
Once 2nd chance proccs you regain 5% HP for every summon sacced by 2nd chance.
Since that's too specific to be a bug i guess it's a buff🎉

I remember this being the first Hydrus passive during the towers beta.

[pure sail]

😱

[subtle tusk]

Okay so having found some free time to play Hydrus I can say that it feels better imo than live for sure, but specifically about Hydrus pact, we need either more damage, or buff Charon ritual to make it so you can atleast Hydrus pact each turn when you're done setting up, rn it feels like it's taking 2 turns to deal a single turn of damage.

And about dungeons, they feel way worse than other classes still, I think some potential ideas that could help is either make summons dying deal aoe damage so we can have a summoner unique way of dungeoning, or make it so we can get temp buffs that other classes get via pets or their passives so we can compete

holy text wall

[vital pebble]

i need my gear to test but idk when they will mirror again

[subtle tusk]

Ye I didn't have BL2 but I kinda went with feel on the dungeons using qat

[long glacier]

AoE capabilities or t.buff?
What do you think about both?

[vital pebble]

depending on damage it could be along the lines of 2 turn moves

[hushed sedge]

Aoe capabilities would be more in-line with sac-summon-summoner
T.Buff could be interesting, but the t.buffs have to compensate for the damage they may or not give on the same pact that sacced the summons

[subtle tusk]

I mean I think it could be done with either good aoe damage and no temp buffs, good temp buff generation, or a mix of both

[subtle tusk]

Maybe, I need to do some more direct comparisons, but it for sure didn't feel worth using over blood pact, especially since you are left way more vulnerable

[dusk sandal]

rn it feels like it's taking 2 turns to deal a single turn of damage
Yeah that's my biggest problem with hypa atm as well. But even if that was not the case, the damage is somehow still less than BP, I mean BP on gsh so even without the quadratic

[vital pebble]

yea i expected a sacrifice one to do way more

but its not based on hp so that is mainly how bp is so good

[bitter cedar]

Not sure if it was said before but the fact that I try to summon ancient dragon and it takes several turns (because no proc luck on rift lock) and in the meantime I have the auto summon coming up with a skeleton… I “continue summoning” for like 2 turns after that and in the end to no avail because I’m already full in summon… that’s annoying

So yeah you’re in essence wasting 2 turns for example for nothing and you char doesn’t stop invoking because there is already the auto summon taking up the slot

Ok I guess it’s just a side effect and we have to deal with… but if only there wiuld be a smart coding like:
if I’m summoning and an auto summon is coming up this turn… is there 6 ppl in party? Yes? Abort summoning

[thorny oracle]

2 X marks. Can someone please converse w me about what exactly in it is too much or w.e issues are with my proposed changes.

Just so I can have an idea of what exactly the rest of the GS community prefers.

[vital pebble]

i agree with health drain over straight sacrificing, especially if the numbers arent even comperable

[thorny oracle]

This is why iv brought up before sevral times that gsh sould use summons themselves as damaging pacts.

[vital pebble]

if i could swing for more damage sacrificing a couple or even 3, id be fine, but im swinging for WAY more just with bloodpact and not losing my meat shields

[subtle tusk]

Agree on the first one, but I feel like making Hydrus pact drain hp will make it too similar to blood pact. It's fine conceptually imo, it just needs more damage OR we need to be able to mass produce summons with its current damage

Second point feels kinda too much but increased rate of Charon ritual with higher souls might be cool and kinda fits

Attack on Hydrus I feel is a bit unnecessary

Crit/aoe on blood pact sounds way too unbalanced, but the state of healing/reviving is so weird in this game that if Hydrus literally got a single turn spell that revived all your summons I wouldn't even think that would be broken

I feel like Charon ritual either needs to summon 3 skeletons when it procs on a skeleton, or just always for example proc on your first equipped summon so you atleast don't get single skeletons out randomly that noone wants

[vital pebble]

if hydrus pact was 75% of health instead would that change anything in your opinion?

i get the base bloodpacts being low % but we are sacrificing completely and not even having good damage then whats the point of hydrus pact

or do they want us using hydrus pact to charge up for blood pact

like an achlys pact but leaving us 2 summoms for defence so we can charge bp2/3

[subtle tusk]

I mean ofc it'd be better but I feel like killing things is the whole point of it

[vital pebble]

if its utility with a bit of damage then fine but it needs to be put that way

[subtle tusk]

ye I guess it will make raids feel more fluid you'll only spend like every third turn summoning

I don't think it's utility, feel like it's meant to be for damage

But we've discussed that already

Imo if we have the choice of more damage and still sacrifice or same dmg but deal less dmg to summons, the first one is better

Cause if it doesn't kill it's just blood pact lite

[thorny oracle]

Make it based on % of total summons

But heavily weigh on larger summons hp.

So that 2 summons 1 high hp and 1 med hp, 1 insanely high hp summon, or 3 low hp summons

Otherwise 3 full summons is outrageous and a bit parasitic thus VERY feels bad

[dusk sandal]

soo, can we expect a temp buff passive of some sorts making it into the beta? Or is it too much work atm

many people seem to want it clearly

[pine garnet]

So from what I am understanding, GSH uses the summon dead and sacrifice them to get 100% Hydrus passive and acter that you can spam your blood pacts. Now forgive for asking but what will the rework be abou?

[long glacier]

#1410277906935975976 message

[nimble relic]

Bloodpact is actually better to do on base gs instead of gsh

[pine garnet]

even with the 30% bonus pact dmg?

[vital pebble]

yea, health and AL on summons

[pine garnet]

GS + Sequencer right?

[devout garden]

It’s a 60% pact bonus

And even with it, at 45-50AL base GS starts dealing the same damage as GSH because of the ascended summons

And with more AL the gap becomes even bigger

[pine garnet]

Wait, lemme catch up first.

Pre-rework bloodpact is better on Base BS than GSH?

[vital pebble]

even now its better with certain AL

[devout garden]

Yeah, in the beta GSH does have even better stats now, but it also lost summon stats

And base still has the quadratic scaling, so it’ll always win

With some AL

[pine garnet]

So gameplay wise, GS is a summon focused class, while GSA is more summon strength and GSH like a caster summoner? Is this correct?

[vital pebble]

yea

gs is supposed to be a balance, gsa is beefy summons, and gsh is nekromancer but its not coming out that way

[pine garnet]

I'm playing as Summoner now cause RS Towers and Raids is so hard without specific event locked gears.

And right now, I am starting to like the playstyle of the class. Still omw to unlock GSA cause i prioritized GSH for the dragon.

Are suggestions allowed?

[vital pebble]

sure but id keep it to the summoner section, they get kinda iffy about this thread not being about gsh

[pine garnet]

It would still be around the GSH Rework

[vital pebble]

then should be fine

[pine garnet]

Since the GSH is a pact focus class, shouldn't it need to have more pact skills and pact power? like temp pact buff or have a fodder based skills for his sacrifice pacts

[vital pebble]

thats what hydrus pact is

and the new passive for auto summoning for the sacrificing to do damage

and it has more pact bonus, its just outclassed by AL later on

[half shadow]

Add blood pact as first priority to use in pvp for hydrus AI.

P.s. not sure if this is for rework, but need to be fixed because hydrus doesn’t do it now

[long glacier]

Summary

11.09.25

Issues?

• CR summons block 'normal' summoned summons
  #1410277906935975976 message
• multiple 2nd chance proccs at once
  #1410277906935975976 message
• Summon Dead failing due to CR?
  #1410277906935975976 message

Notes
The community explored the new 2nd chance and discovered a 5%HP heal per dying summon.
The discusssion about AoE capabilities and t.buff generation is a priority and ongoing. It feels like the community would love to have a comment from the devs on the topics.

@lyric fjord ☝️

[pine garnet]

wait, if AL is the problem why it's weaker, what if the Hydrus passive is capped to 150%, then GSH can have a skill slot for the CR to choose what summon skill to auto summon.

or have the Hydrus passive cap at 150% and have another decaying 50% per turn.

[lethal pasture]

Well in terms of Bloodpact it will always get out classed by GS by some point due to GSH has no ascended summons and that goes into the formula

We can't focus on GSH being better than GS on bloodpact lol it isn't going to happen long term, and short term no AL it is better than GS bloodpact

But 0 AL GS ultima is better than 0AL GSH bloodpact, and less turn set up too

GSH definitely isn't our raider, focusing on its magic stat and other pacts that are MAGIC based should be a priority here so it can excel in it's own content

[hushed sedge]

So another deity Ara with non-crit setup?

[lethal pasture]

Idk anything about deity Ara lmao

But GSH definitely should be our mage set up/pact user, maybe not bloodpact but other pacts that deal AOE probably

Pvp/dungeons or towers is where I can see GSH excelling atm

[hushed sedge]

Magic class with a stackable conditional stat, with the difference that D.Ara has apex bar while GSH has summons. Summons that are just for show with magic-baesd skills

[dusk sandal]

What?

You need to summon to sustain hypa / bp / whatever other pact they come up with

I can also say deity ara is just a heretic

[final oar]

pact pact (boosts pact power) {get me on the design team

[lethal pasture]

I mean summons would still be part of any pact formula in some way, alongside you'd probably want an assortment of summons that help increase your dmg/or easy to fill the field back up

Pretty sure GSH is still very very glass cannon and can't be touched by much lol

I still feel like A.mammon is gonna be a problem, as it's a problem for most summoner set ups currently

But yeah If I knew exactly the deity ara comparison I'd be able to put more input but all I've ever played is summoner, and tiny bit beo

[bitter cedar]

Honestly I don’t want to have to play yet another ultima build on another class that is meant to have its own identity and spells. So if there’s a chance we don’t get to use ultima… I would be happy. I hope others feel the same.

[ornate nacelle]

Revisiting beta to look at GSH..
It seems GSH less inclined to use summoning skill on ai def..
Looks solid with some build and change on HyPa feels really good..
8 mirror battles, only 2 they revert to old style..

[dusk sandal]

Idk why it's hitting twice but I'll take it

[devout garden]

2 summons sacrificed, 2 hits

It’s happening more or just that one time?

[dusk sandal]

Every time

[devout garden]

So it’s AoE now?

3 summons sacrificed there, and 4 hits

[devout garden]

But it hit 4 enemies there

[dusk sandal]

No, 2 enemies

It hit 2 enemies twice

[devout garden]

But there are also 2 misses

[devout garden]

Like, it targeted 4

[dusk sandal]

Idk it's always hitting twice for me

[devout garden]

Don’t know, I’m just confused by those 2 misses

[hearty dove]

I'm struggling to make it feel good

[devout garden]

Since with those it would’ve been 4

[hearty dove]

two hits, two misses, I guess?

[dusk sandal]

Its not something you can solely rely on fot dungeon aoe

Raids havent tried

[devout garden]

Yeah, but in the description that Pie showed it says up to 3 enemies

[hearty dove]

Yeah, that I can't seem to make function

Not enough summons for how frequently we explode them

Meaning it still needs to rely on brilliant lights

but if you're using brilliant lights, do you even need HyPa is the thing

[dusk sandal]

It could be nice to charge passive

[devout garden]

It still is a pretty good way to charge the passive while on the move

Yeah

[hearty dove]

That's true

[dusk sandal]

But if we have to rely on BL2 again then we still have the problem of no pet buffs

[hearty dove]

Not unlike a deity rotation then

Could also lean more into the passive when/if we get gear for it

But I'm not sure we would get gear for it?

Because like, this isn't a class passive, it's a celestial class passive.
It's not even a 1/6 class usage, it's a 1/18 class usage.

Very narrow choice to release gear for

[devout garden]

With the passive fully charged we might be able to oneshot floors, or if it’s just normal horde, we can rely on BL for normal monsters and then use HyPa against the boss floors, with the summons from CR

[dusk sandal]

well hypa is still not going to hit more than 3 enemies

[devout garden]

But we do have DoF for that, so it shouldn’t really be a problem

[dusk sandal]

I dont have yel gear in beta to prove it but Im sure it will still be a lot worse than other mage classes. Aaru robe is literally 2x dmg. Macaroni penguin on hcorv is 4x damage lol

Well let me try with md build maybe

Lmao

I cant seem to make it work, but it might be MD issue rather than gsh. I also had a run where I got statused 4 times in a row on the first floor with 3 cockatrice, dont have enough turn 1 damage to kill them

[long glacier]

Yes, currently it has some hickups. Also it only saccing 1 summon when there's only 1 target is not intended.

Atm it feels like a way to smoothly charge your passive rather than a standalone AoE spell.

Most annoying part for me is CR proccing before PE4 so when leaving a floor with no summons you enter a new one with only 1 instead of two.

This and the CR rate cuts the flow for me.

Basically i wait for CR to summon a 3rd summon to popp HyPa and then proceed to use whatever full AoE i have until i have 3 summons again.

[devout garden]

Mirrors when

[dusk sandal]

Yes pls

[long glacier]

So all in all it enables a smooth way to charge Hydrus and supports full AoE weapons/spells with a hard hitting eleless semi AoE.

Due to CR going before PE, the current CR rate and GSHs weak summons dying to a stiff breeze i don't enjoy doing a horde dungeon with only HyPa.

Currently it targets summons with the most HP, i guess this will be changed to summons with lowest HP.

[void portal]

how is gsh performing in beta rn?

[dusk sandal]

What Im curious about is how gsh will perform at higher ang

I really think the damage will fall short (at least when not using hypa)

Cmom mirror please. Allow me to compare 101 al beta gsh vs 78 al heretic lol

[nimble relic]

Idk whats going on in beta but onryo is acting differend than on live...

On live it spams summon undead and in beta it spams everything else than summon undead even on auriga

Was trying to test the hydrus pact but onryo refuces to cast summons

[tacit urchin]

Check her BB's in the codex 👍

[ornate nacelle]

Funny things on Mirror arena..
Somehow they oftenly use HyPa if meet with it's requirement..

[nimble relic]

so onryo is destroyed ;-;

ill try if stacking more pet ai makes her spam summons

[long glacier]

Unfortunately i'm not that deep into Ang to check that.
@hearty dove should have a somewhat actual mirror and is deeper in Ang?

[ornate nacelle]

They revert to former self, with chance to fail..

[dusk sandal]

I also have no anguish in beta, only on live. But we still cant really make a comparison with BL2 with no new mirrors 😶

[hearty dove]

I can't get past floor 2 on anguish 10 lol

[long glacier]

Build tonky lol

[hearty dove]

Best run I have thus far

Let me try to switch maluses around, since I have plenty of permanent buff fade chance...

[ornate nacelle]

I guess GSH need some tuning on PvP..
So far for offense, great..
Defense, exposed too much..

[dusk sandal]

Nooo

I really thought you would at least be able to complete the dungeon lol

[hearty dove]

To be fair I optimised it really poorly

[dusk sandal]

But it's what I already thought, the lack of buffs just makes it harder to hit thresholds

[hearty dove]

giving it a better attempt now

Went much better, but honestly, it's just sweatier, riskier, more effort and less reward than what heretic / deity / base GS can do tbh

[long glacier]

You can't soley rely on summon dead imo

[long glacier]

2 beefy boys as starters is necessary

[dusk sandal]

Live heretic corvus for comparison (doesnt even need to charge passive

[hearty dove]

Live GSA dungeon for comparison too

[hearty dove]

Even with servers being kind of glacial at times, compared to beta's snappyness, it's still faster than GSH on beta, all the while being 2 anguish higher

-# Seriously that's like 3 whole seconds between inputs and actions at times

[dusk sandal]

How would you solve it john?

I mean gsh aoe

if the idea is that we should still rely on bl2 / despair for aoe damage, then I think we need a temp buff passive still to make up for the lack of pet. Other solution would be to make aoe hypa more sustainable, but that would mean gsh is like the only class in the game with good aoe that doesnt require spec or gear

[nimble relic]

Buff hypa dmg more

[long glacier]

Ang content aside, how do we feel about current HyPa...
Well maybe that's a bit soon to ask since it hits double and only saccs as much summons as there're targets (up to 3)

[hearty dove]

If it still sacs 3 but hits the same target thrice it might be pretty cool in raids and as a finisher for big mammon-esque monsters

Thematically I'd like for us not to have to brilliant lights all things considered, since if we go down the BL path we're just going to end up being worse than other classes, unless we get t.mag+++ from somewhere in our kit, which I think might be asking for a bit much

I'd personally like it to be self sustaining, at least in a dungeon environment

After all, if we're going for Dungeons over Raids, that might be the path to take

With that in mind, the problem is mainly the fuel currently. The damage is pretty solid if we can forgo the brilliant lights staff and go for pact multipliers, too

Would it be possible, I wonder, to have CR roll once, plus one additional time per enemy you kill on your turn

Ehhh that's a bit overcomplicated, and it still wouldn't fix the issue

4 rolls at 35% does not refuel HyPa reliably

[devout garden]

It’s that or gear/cele adorns boosting it

[hearty dove]

I don't think that's going to happen, realistically

[devout garden]

#1410277906935975976 message

Yeah, what you mentioned here

[hearty dove]

yep

It's not like NF is printing Dorado gear, or Critical Poise gear, or Sigil gear, or (...)

We get Classline passives, not celestial specific ones

Not to say it's impossible, but it sounds like a waste of development time to make such niche items

[nimble relic]

I like the hypa atm

Sacs 1 if there is only 1 enemy etc

[devout garden]

#1410277906935975976 message 🗿

[long glacier]

Skelli per dead opponent is still on the list, should go well with dungeons but doesn't influence raids at all.

Or the very 1st version of CR, it being able to summon multiple of the summon spell does so.

[pine garnet]

is the only summon viable for hydrus is the dead?

[long glacier]

No

[hearty dove]

Yeah that'd be good

[long glacier]

HyPa should be working as intended now

• saccing lowest HP summons
• always 3 (or less if you have less on the field) summons sacced
• summons sacced = enemies hit
• one hit spell

[hearty dove]

One hit per sacrificed summon*

If you sac 3 summons against 1 target, it does deal triple hits

[pine garnet]

HyPa scale on summon HP?

*stats i mean

[long glacier]

No it scales from number of sacrificed summons

Up to three

[pine garnet]

Is it a Multi-target attack?

[pine garnet]

So overall in the beta, what changed vs in the main game?

cause I saw that GSH lost some summon stat

[hearty dove]

Are you on Android?

[pine garnet]

Yes

[hearty dove]

Then please just go look by yourself 😅

it's an open beta

[pine garnet]

Is there another game of orna?

Sorry, I did not know.

[long glacier]

Or follow those handy pins of the thread👍

[hearty dove]

Anyhow, back to hypa
It doesn't feel great in dungeons, same reasoning as before, but even when it was bugged to always deal double damage it still didn't feel great

It's a tool to accelerate building the passive up, but honestly, I don't think we actually need that?

the summons pop up and die by themselves whenever we buff up / miss / don't oneshot with brilliant lights

I used it to nuke the boss floor, but it legitimately just deals less damage than brilliant lights, so it doesn't even serve a similar purpose to an apex aoe spell, despite the fact we have to charge it up with summons

I would've been better off just using brilliant lights again

-# (Spending 40 seconds on floor 1 setting up is also not great)

[dusk sandal]

But even if hypa aoe is 100% sustainable, you're still only killing 3 enemies per floor which means you're inevitably slower than other classes. But at least we would have a unique aoe lol

[devout sedge]

Maybe useful in towers?

[long glacier]

I really struggle to make it work Ang10 w/o BL2

[surreal zodiac]

probably, we'll see how it goes

it just got out, there's still some room for improvements

[surreal zodiac]

wait question

does the amount of summon determine the amount of enemies you'll hit?

what if u used hypa with 2 summons would it only hit 2 enemies?

[long glacier]

Yes and currently it's neat to support 'real' AoE builds to smoothly stack Hydrus.
However i feel like smth is missing and we're on a crossroad.

• maintain a fluent stream of summons for constant HyPa
  or
• get a t.buff out of the loop to support current 'full' AoE builds

[surreal zodiac]

would've been nice to get at least 3 mobs even though there's only 2 summons on the field

[surreal zodiac]

i dont think would hypa and bl2 would perform well on gsh with t buff ngl

we could do both if that's gonna be alright with odie, we could always adjust the numbers if its too broken or smth

[long glacier]

Tbf HyPa does enough dmg on its own imo.

[surreal zodiac]

i see, so sustaining the fuel is the dillema rn

still waiting if odie will implement the suggest t buffs we suggested

[dusk sandal]

First idea would be more fun, but even then hypa is not killing more than 3 enemies per floor

[surreal zodiac]

yeah but it could be something for towers

[dusk sandal]

Well towers meta is also bl2

[surreal zodiac]

wouldve been nice it could 3 enemies while having 2 summosn on the field

[dusk sandal]

It's still not going to be enough to compete with other classes I feel

[surreal zodiac]

i want a unique playstyle to play around with but we'll see

[surreal zodiac]

why?

[dusk sandal]

You're only killing 3 enemies instead of 5

Ig gsh could also bl2 on top tho

Still worse than other classes probably but at least it has heretic mag noe

Im talking about towers mostly. In dungeons it's probably further behind

[pine garnet]

Auriga Pact "question mark"

[surreal zodiac]

yeah and its still far from a horde class really, the way it is now it'd be just a support for actual aoe builds

[dusk sandal]

Im not saying GSH needs to be the best at horde tho. It's gping to be hard to catch up to deity and maybe even heretic, but I think the gap is still too big atm

[long glacier]

What would it need to close the gap and still be thematic, besides t.buff generation?

[surreal zodiac]

being able to hit more than 3? and being able to sustain the stream of summons

[dusk sandal]

yes

but I also dont think its balanced if GSH creates like 4-5 summons on the field every turn. Maybe hypa should just consume less summons?

Im already visualizing the scenarios in pvp where GSH spawns an entireass army in 1 turn lmao

[long glacier]

Then again it'd be the first class to be able to fully AoE on its own

[long glacier]

It should be bound to conditions like, spawn on kill or smth.
Pretty much useless in raids or pvp, great in horde

[dusk sandal]

yes but thats the only way for it to be thematic ig

[surreal zodiac]

thematically fitting and would close the gap

rn hypa hits only 2 enemies if u have 2 summons on the field to hit the max 3 enemies u have to spawn another one, the sustain for the fuel isnt that great either you'd constantly resummon and rn it seems like a good support for true aoe builds

[long glacier]

Yes, also CR spawns negating PE4 spawns is kinda meh

[surreal zodiac]

tbh i dont see the problem it being the first one to be able to do horde full aoe on its own, i mean why not? lets test its capabilities and tone it down if its toooooo good

[long glacier]

Theorycrafting, what if instead of a chance to summon smth at the start of your turn

CR is now

• killing an opponent summons a skelli

and HyPa

• saccs up to 5 summons and hits up to 5 targets
• only saccs as much summons as opponents are on the field (like previously)
  or
• excessive hits go to an opponent (main target?)

Absolutely useless in PvP and raids, would require the machinery to get going in dungeons but once it runs, it runs.

[dusk sandal]

thats a cool idea

[long glacier]

I mean it wouldn't be broken since it clearly has a heavy setup plus once you start missing you're somewhat in trouble.

[hearty dove]

I dunno, I kind of like it always killing max summons

It means that it functions almost like splitting AoE - the less enemies there are, the more damage you deal

Can be a useful tool against the pesky medeas and mammons

[umbral cliff]

Why not do the same thing chronomancer has where one spell is aoe and the other is single target that way one hypa is a solid tower/ dungeon option and the other is better for raids? I also liked the one person's idea to have summons pop up on a chance based on kills

[pine garnet]

the second chance passive will be useless jf we have no summons on the field

[long glacier]

Agreed, however i think there should be a downside to it being a full AoE spell. Also if it'd be a weaponless, specless AoE we could sequence it.
Dem 2 staff multipliers, doublecasts and whatnot.

[hearty dove]

Killing max summons would also be a downside, no?
If we're living in the fantasy world where we get one skelly per kill, killing all five to kill a mammon would then leave us very out of ammo for next floor

[long glacier]

'Only saccs as much summons as opponents are on the field'
So if there's only one Mammon, only one summon will go.
Also if we enter a new floor w/o summons PE4 would kick in.
Also we still have other potent spells like BP to deal high single target dmg.

I mean in the end i'm just looking for a way to justify a full specless/weaponless AoE so some downsides are required imo.

[hearty dove]

Yeah I know how the spell currently works, but the message you replied to was me specifically stating that I liked when it killed max summons :p

And I'm not sure if BP is functional in a HyPa-using world, at least not in dungeons. Could easily be wrong though

[long glacier]

It works if you have atleast one beefy boy such as Pegasus

With the skellis, nah

Noticing smth with current HyPa dmg.
The number of sacced summons increases the dmg per target and the number of targets hit.

[hearty dove]

Oh, I did not notice the damage increase per sac. Interesting

[long glacier]

That doesn't seem right does it?

[hearty dove]

Not really no

I wouldn't expect it to work that way at least

[long glacier]

Btw lowest HyPa dmg and BP with 1 beefy boy, tonky sequencer

[subtle tusk]

Overall this hypa change is sick, and I think if we just get a way to constantly have summons up that's unique to Hydrus, since making it gear locked doesn't make that much sense, it will be pretty good

[dusk sandal]

Hypa in pvp is kinda weird lol

[subtle tusk]

Also Imo we can get a hypa 2 that sacs up to 5 to deal damage to 5 and that wouldn't be that insane

[dusk sandal]

Let us have this

it's somehow bypassing second chance?

not sure if intentional

~~still more balanced than SS3 ~~

[median harness]

You don't need to cross that out unless Hypa can't miss lol

[dusk sandal]

Well that was with nolans staff. This is with nekro

[devout garden]

Kinda like CD

[dusk sandal]

yeah

double second chances can still screw you up tho, because you do kill your meatshields

[devout garden]

True

[dusk sandal]

but there's no way odie is going to ship it like ths

GSH would probably become the best pvp offense class in the game

[devout garden]

Quick, delete all that

I mean, I would kinda dig having the best offense since we have the worst defense

But yeah, that’s omega broken

[surreal zodiac]

nah that was intended

this is what we needed

[dusk sandal]

for this brief moment in time, GSH was the best at something

[surreal zodiac]

let us cherish this moment

[long glacier]

It looks like every consecutive hit on one target is like an additional hit in itself, different to multi hit spells.

[nimble relic]

I noticed funny interaction

Pet block protected everyone

[surreal zodiac]

yeah intended

gsh pvp lesgoo

[long glacier]

I mean PvP was a focus too😅

[long glacier]

Btw would that also bypass the 50% restriction of BoF?

[devout garden]

It would need to be capped, same as CD, which can't proc on the first turn

Assuming it works the same way as CD, as seen in what Pie sent

[long glacier]

Currently it does bypass it

[devout garden]

Yeah, same as CD, then

[void portal]

guys since hypa and hypa 2 are sacrificing summons this quickly I'm a little concerned about second chance passive since it works best when there are more summon on field

[pine garnet]

.

[dusk sandal]

At least it means you may not get oneshot on pvp defense

[lyric fjord]

personally i think situations where you need to balance the offensive and defensive are needed more in Orna

[dusk sandal]

spiked shield was a mistake

[long glacier]

Yes HyPa saccing all summons ||and hitting all opponents|| stripping you completely of your 2nd chance possibilities is a perfect exercise for this vision, let's do it

[dull gale]

Peak

[ornate nacelle]

How about HyPa boost auto summon chance, kinda similar with build tower in titan follower?
Build tower gives buff and damage to opponent..

[devout sedge]

Like 10% extra CR for every kill/hit with HyPa or every kill with HyPa is a chance to procc CR?

[ornate nacelle]

Not every kill/hit..
If GSH or SH use HyPa, they got something like temp. buff that gives additional auto summon chance..
It's just like Realm with Bloodshift (?)

[formal socket]

Chance Auto summon for every enemy killed only applies to dungeon/tower content. 😆

[subtle tusk]

Ye that's exactly what we want

No?

[devout sedge]

I thought we were trying to specialise him in horde content as well

[long glacier]

It does in PvP/BoF too.
2 GSH killing their summons and restocking themselves at the same time

Hilarious

[subtle tusk]

Imo current one needs some PvP adjustments

Current beta hypa I mean

I think the main thing that doesn't feel satisfying is CR

Proc rate feels way too low, and it would be fine if you could gear for it maybe, but I doubt that's going to happen

Unless we get some +auto summon -summon stat gear for summoner so that GSA doesn't abuse it I guess?

[devout sedge]

Auto summon gear would work with gsh only anyway

[vital pebble]

they could add that as a bonus to the riflock, increasing the chance of auto

[pine garnet]

New t9 Riftlock? *wink**wink *

[surreal zodiac]

might happen who knows? heretic got manaflask items

just hoping that we could get t buffs soon

after this fuel problem is resolved

really pushing for the 3rd option

[pine garnet]

But manaflask is a staple for the mages, auto summon only is for Hydrus. Maybe a riftlock that is Quick Summon + Summon stats and another that has Auto Summon + Pact Bonus or something

And also, what would be the state of Bloodpact now since we have Hydrus Pact? What things would change?

[surreal zodiac]

nothing

hypa can't compete with bp on raids

[long glacier]

Best boon for GSH BP currently is CR2 adding summons passively to the field

[pine garnet]

Can the CR2 auto summ off-hand summon skills?

[long glacier]

No

[void portal]

can CR2 summon horde?

[dusk sandal]

only 1 summon at a time

[void portal]

and is probability constant or depends upon total no. of summon on field

[dusk sandal]

constant 35%

[void portal]

i see

so how is gsh performing in beta

[pine garnet]

So from what I understand:
Bloodpact's damage scales on Summon Stats which GSH has very low in the beta.
HyPa's damage does not scale on Summon Stats but with Pact Damage which GSH has and also has summon upkeep because of CR2.

• BP is good when using GS but not GSH? or needs itemization?
• HyPa is more of a AoE focus skill for GSH, so can it be used for Raiding? or does it have it's own limit?

[dusk sandal]

definitely better than the live version of the game, but still behind similar classes (heretic, deity, other gs classes etc)

[surreal zodiac]

fuel problem with hypa, and lack of t. buffs

but its pretty alright

compared to live

[pine garnet]

CR2's passive says "equipped summon automatically summoned into battle but at a reduced power...":
does this mean that the reduced power means like -50% summon stat? How much is it?

[void portal]

is gsh worst or worse than other classes

if it's still worst it need more buffs

[surreal zodiac]

horde wise its still behind, but pvp is goated now

compared to live gsh

[void portal]

i don't think pvp is enough

and what can we do for fuel buffs

[surreal zodiac]

current problem for gsh now

[void portal]

how about a passive that increase the amount of summons summoned by spell but the stats are lowered by x %

[surreal zodiac]

suggested solutions to that problem

[void portal]

if you are against any class that isn't gs, gsa, gsh then skeleton passive is useless

[dusk sandal]

then you would still need to spend turns on summoning, which still makes aoe dungeons not so smooth. Basically you still run out of summons, need to stop to summon, then the enemies start hitting you in the meantime etc. Whereas with the skeleton passive, enemies killed on the previous floor would have summoned some skeletons on the field for you, which you can then immediately use to do HyPa again, without needing to stop to summon

[dusk sandal]

it would be a dungeon passive for the most part, not useful for pvp if thats what you mean

[surreal zodiac]

ugh for the pvp part, if u miss your hypa can it not consume your summons hp so that you wouldnt be left defenseless

like how the cs/ss3 works now

[void portal]

make sense

[surreal zodiac]

i have no idea if it consumes your summons hp if u miss, but i am just assuming that it does

[void portal]

but tower are also considered in horde content (probably) so is there any idea for towers too

[void portal]

I'm pretty sure it does

[dusk sandal]

I feel like we didnt discuss towers that much. But yeah the skeleton passive wouldnt do a whole lot there. Fastest way to do towers would probably still be yelmogus staff brilliant lights 2 instead of using pacts

[surreal zodiac]

has potential as long kaine's idea would be considered or implemented, anyhow we just need a streamline of summons as fuels for both horde dgns and towers to work

[void portal]

yeah we need to check if it's worth replacing CR2 passive

[void portal]

that's why i want some buffs on gsh for tower too

[dusk sandal]

considering you only start with 2 summons in towers, even with the kaine idea you can only kill 2 enemies at a time with HyPa in towers. That means you need 2-3 turns for some encounters. Whereas with brilliant lights 2 it can be done in 1 turn. So I dont expect hydrus pact to be the way to go for towers

[surreal zodiac]

yeah but it'd be alright if u have no event items

[dusk sandal]

guys how about this, not sure if it's broken. Hydrus gets elysian guidelight 2, summons follow you across towers encounters. Would be hella useful for towers with hypa

[surreal zodiac]

and its unique to the class if ever, im so tired with bl2 despite how fast it clears xd

[void portal]

exactly if you don't have yelmogus quarterstaff or yelmogus greatstaff then you can't do anything in towers

[surreal zodiac]

hows that gonna work? like if u summons e.g summon dead and u get 5 summons in the field the next time u enter a fight its still 5?

[dusk sandal]

yeah

basically like how heretic flasks carry over

[surreal zodiac]

hmm u could probably just hypa just fine if thats the case

[surreal zodiac]

even with kaine's idea you're kinda right about this part, it'd be doable to some degree yeah but not really as efficient you'd expect it to be on high ang

[pine garnet]

That would be very specific.

[void portal]

i don't see anything wrong with that

[pine garnet]

It would work on Monuments too. but idk about it, reworks are Lose something, gain something iirc.

[surreal zodiac]

hmm do we have to put a downside to it? cus i dont think odie would just go for it if its toooo good for him

[void portal]

even if it's very specific it'll work well

[void portal]

stat decrease?

[dusk sandal]

but think about it. If summons follow you across encounters, then the first towers encounters you summon 5. Then you oneshot an encounter with HyPa (it should oneshot every enemy if you have 5 on the field). Then with kaine's idea that would mean 5 skeletons just spawned replacing your original summons. That means for the next towers encounter you have 5 summons as well

[surreal zodiac]

how bout 3 starting summons for towers only? would that be good or bad?

[void portal]

or some probability thing?

[pine garnet]

more stat decrease? at beta GSH is at 80% SS.

[void portal]

I'm only giving examples for downsides

[surreal zodiac]

i see the vision

[pine garnet]

Not meaning to offend.

[void portal]

how about ascended pact type passive (it can be nerfed)

it's a random idea

[surreal zodiac]

nah that'd be broken i feel

[pine garnet]

but at this point SS is not significant for GSH if we reduce more of SS.

[void portal]

but can gsh keep up to other classes as al increases?

if it can then ignore my idea

[surreal zodiac]

people might complain to another quad scaling

[void portal]

I'm just concerned about high als if there is another way please suggest

[pine garnet]

Genuine question, how does the AL scaling work for BeoA vs BeoH? How does it differ to GSA vs GSH situation?

[surreal zodiac]

afaik and correct me if im wrong for beoA it also ascends your pet so if you're al 30 your pet is also al 30, for gsa it ascends your summons stat per al, and because of that blood pact hits harder. While gsh doesnt have summon ascended so it's summon's stat is capped.

[dusk sandal]

BeoA and BeoH don't really use quadratic spells/skills. The quadratic debate is more about GS vs GSH, not GSA.

Blood pact is like the only spell in the game that is quadratic at the moment. Increasing summon HP increases the damage, but increasing your magic stat also increases it damage. On base GS (also GSA), you have ascended summons, so if you ascend it increases BOTH your magic stat and your summon stat. This means that al100 GS does ~4x the damage with blood pact versus an al0 GS, for like every other spell in the game AL100 is only a 2x damage increase vs al0.

BeoA and BeoH have other mechanics. BeoA has a redline passive that scales multiplicatively with AL, unlike any other line passive in the game which is additive with AL (gsh passive, heretic blueline, deity purple line etc). BeoH hybrid monster is also multiplicative with AL also unlike lines (which get weaker with AL). So beo has its own advantages with higher ascension compared to most other classes, but it doesn't really have quadratic scaling skills like GS has with blood pact.

the takeaway is that GSH doesnt have ascended summons, so it doesn't have the same quadratic scaling on blood pact that base GS and GSA have with ascended summons. This means that inevitably, at high enough ascension base GS will always do more damage with blood pact than GSH

[subtle tusk]

huge vouch for kaine's idea, but imo it doesnt even have to be just skeletons, just killing enemies has a chance to cast your equipped summons

and even better if we do the whole CR can proc on offhand abilities thing too

[pine garnet]

yeah why only skellies.

[surreal zodiac]

im add on that one too

[subtle tusk]

that + Hydrus pact 2 that is exactly the same but goes up to 5 summons and therefore 5 targets

and i think im fine with it shipping like that

probably still wont be deity level but will be so much better than live

[pine garnet]

if Pacts are made for GSH, then GSH should recieve Pacts

[surreal zodiac]

from my suggestion
|
v

3: Spell slot buffs from summon sacrifice: when you sac a summon, you receive one of the buffs from their available set of spell slots
Pros:
Synergizes well with the Hydrus passive flow, quick to get buffs.
The most variety in summons. Stonewarg to get WoO (classified as buff), phoenix warrior for DB2, penguin for DC etc
Synergy with gear (beast garb) due to that gear adding spells to the summon spell slots
Cons:
Most difficult to implement, would require checking spell slots every time a summon is sacced
May be difficult to balance.

---

ill try to correlate this to kaine's idea. I can't pinpoint this exactly but my idea is when gsh auto summon's if u have 4 summon spells in your load out e.g (your main summons, summon dead, tower guardian). When u cast hypa there's that chance that a skelly would pop up right? But how bout we also include what's in our load out? a chance for another summon spell equip to pop up and then when u kill you'd get its buff.

i can't put it into words properly but this the best way that i can put it

[dusk sandal]

but kaine's idea was that the summon pops up when you kill an enemy right? Is your suggestion then that it can also create one of the summons in your loadout when you kill an enemy?

[void portal]

the cons are too much and that's why i don't think it will be implemented

[surreal zodiac]

yes yes

[surreal zodiac]

im also trying to follow up what bruxx said, cus skellies aint bad but we can make it better by also doing this

[dusk sandal]

I frankly dont think the buff effects as described there will be implemented either, although I would ofc want it. But imo a good GSH rework that is late, is better than a GSH rework that is forever bad

[surreal zodiac]

because out of all the suggestions for the t. buff i think the 3rd option is the best, u could make use of beast garb, aaru robe on gsh if thats the case

[dusk sandal]

if this rework flops there's no way there'll be a rework again. This is already like the third rework(?)

[void portal]

i also want all these buffs and yeah we should take time and make gsh a good class

[surreal zodiac]

yeah if time is only the issue to make it happen then im willing to wait

i dont want a half-assed gsh reworked, ive waited a year for this so i got time

[surreal zodiac]

truly

[pine garnet]

What would we want for GSH? whats the ultimate goal?

[void portal]

i just want gsh to be decent but enjoying class

[surreal zodiac]

already discussed in previous topics, horde/pvp

[pine garnet]

I agree with this.

[surreal zodiac]

can't really compete with base gs for raiding so we focus on that

[void portal]

horde content (?)

[dusk sandal]

Ive waited like 2 years for a proper GSH rework. I'm probably the person in this discord that complained the most about the state of GSH there's no way we're going to let it flop again

[surreal zodiac]

btw pie what do u think of this? would this be a good implementation?

[void portal]

according to method man it's good (or better than current gsh) in pvp

[pine garnet]

If horde content, can't BL2 or Swansong a good thing for GSH? or am I just stupid.

[void portal]

then why even use gsh in horde

bl2 is better on gs (high al)

so usually ppl wouldn't use gsh for bl2

[dusk sandal]

what I want is a class that has its own distinct playstyle and is a good allrounder in most content. With allrounder I kinda mean like heretic, you can use it in towers, dungeons, raids, pvp and do relatively well there, even though it's not particularly overpowered in any of that content.

[dusk sandal]

I like it but I wonder if it would become OP. You'd be getting your summons replenished for free AND a chance at strong temp buffs (all^^^ mag^^^) for not that much effort

[surreal zodiac]

yeah and you coud just technically not equip ad and pegasus as your main summon, and just equip ortanite golem and tower guardian and and then kaine's idea would still be there while you're getting the t buffs

[surreal zodiac]

maybe its time for gsh to become op just for once before getting hit by a massive nerf after a month

[void portal]

i can see that happening

[surreal zodiac]

only downside or drawback i could think of is you not being able to get the buff at the same time, for example u get ward of ortanite now and when they get resummoned on the next floor- you'll get the GM from tower guardian

1 buff at a time

u could even throw 90% chance to get the buffs, if u guys want to make it just for gsh that way it isnt too op

[long glacier]

Summary

21.09.25

Patchy!

• HyPa saccs up to 3 summons, lowest HP summons first
• for every summon sacced you hit one opponent
• if there're less opponents than summons sacced leftover hits are dealt to the main target
• HyPa bypasses 2nd chance
  #1410277906935975976 message
• HyPa bypasses BoF 50% HPdmg 1st turns rule
  #1410277906935975976 message

HyPa, HyPa

• not sustainable for consecutive uses
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message
• currently works as a way to smoothly charge Hydrus
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message

---

Problems?

• currently GSH struggles at Ang10+
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1009229920087593000 message
• CR2 proccing before PE4 when entering new floor, often leaving you with 1 summon instead of possible 2 after HyPa use, suggest CR2 check after PE4 check at the start of your turn
  #1410277906935975976 message
• HyPa number of targets and dmg increase per summon sacced
  #1410277906935975976 message

Different ways to improve
HyPa stays a support tool to charge Hydrus and sacc summons.

• t.buffs necessary like stated previously
  #1410277906935975976 message

HyPa becomes a standalone spell for GSH to fully clear horde content.

• CR2 proccs for every enemy slain
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message
• summon CR2 summons/skeletons per kill
  #1410277906935975976 message
• HyPa saccs up to 5 summons to hit up to 5 targets
  #1410277906935975976 message
• Guidelight 2, summons follow in tower/ monument battles
  #1410277906935975976 message

A mix of both previous ways.

• suggestion from OL
  #1009229920087593000 message

---

Notes
The community was eager to test the HyPa changes and found some kinks. Most got patched out soon, some need clarification.
All in all they agree that HyPas current iteration works to fluently stack Hydrus but the spell and GSH as a class still lack the capabilities to reliably work through (Ang) horde content.
They'd welcome changes that either boost HyPa and CR2 to reliably push through hordes w/o the need to use BL2 or to add a possibilty for GSH to generate t.buffs to make up for the lack of a follower. The first is seen as more thematic for the class while the latter would make it more capable in every content.
A mixture of both would be welcome too.

[long glacier]

@lyric fjord ☝️

[dull gale]

Feels like GSH is almost done, couple more things to go.

[void portal]

it's far from done i think

fuel problem still remains

[dull gale]

You have to use fuel sparingly, and fill occasionally. The only issue is that fuel has like, 5k hp and keeps getting killed.
They need a monster like Mighty Mimic that can actually stick around to get used.

[dusk sandal]

identity wise it's getting there, performance wise it's still a bit lacking. Pvp offense is very good, maybe too strong actually (500k-1M damage turn 1 wtf). In dungeons it's still a lot worse than my heretic, basically because you're still forced to rely on BL2/despair due to the fact that hypa is not sustainable aoe, which means you're always going to be worse than heretic using those same skills because you don't have pet buffs or innate crit bonus. Havent tried it in towers yet, I think BL2 would be the way to go there and with heretic mag stat it should be OK?

it's kinda hard to compare it to my heretic on live because I dont have the yel / trev staff in beta

[pine garnet]

I tried GSH in beta, I liked that HyPa does decent damage but AoE wise it's a bit hard to clear a dungeon floor sometimes(since I have not gotten the summon dead in arcanist yet). I experienced that after a buff setup in the early floors, in the next floor, after using HyPa or HyPa2 and clearing the current floor horde mobs, I can't clear the next dungeon floor due to I only have 2 summons in the next. The next floors have 3 or 4 mobs (no summoned opponents). CR2 is doing low procs at 2 summons which forced me to summon another Basilisk (1-Turn) just even out the the next HyPa/Hypa2 hits. IDK if I missed anything but that's what I'm experiencing doing Horde Dungeons.

I'm suggesting to "maybe" let GSH have a Paired Essence 5 or something that makes him have a +1 fodder. Auto-summons is not reliable sometimes.

[dull gale]

At least the summons recast with at least 2, that is extremely generous

Could get stuck with none, and thats awful.

[dull gale]

What the heck are you doing to hit 500k 1st turns in pvp?

[pine garnet]

But if the idea is to not rely on BL2 or any other AoE skills which hits all, GSH needs more. If other classes that can use 2H for an AoE skill, they buff up and get DB or WoO in the early floors. They have the luxury to breeze through the succeding floors and if they stumble upon Immune or Misses they they have a another skill to deal with it.

For beta GSH, we have to summon if they have more numbers, then cast the HyPa/HyPa2, and there is still a chance for a miss.

[mortal bobcat]

How we looking on this project

[pine garnet]

CR2 -> Auto Summons 40% and +1 more auto summoned & +Steadfast -Second Chance
GSoH -> Summon Stats 60% & Summon Pacts 60%

can be?

[dull gale]

Oh double cast, the glass cannon build

[dusk sandal]

The fact that it can bypass second chance with the second hit makes it slightly less risky to use, but if your opponent second chances twice you are left with no summons

[long glacier]

BP or HyPa, if my opponent does 2nd chance two times does that really matter?

[dusk sandal]

The bigger problem is parapet. If opponent parapet procs you are also left with no summons, and they're still full hp

BP is safer in that regard, you don't immediately kill your summons if you whiff

But that's fine, we can have BP as a safer option and HyPa as the yolo option

[long glacier]

Does parapet block all hits from HyPa?

[dusk sandal]

Yes

Wait actually I dont know, I am ofc only hitting myself once because the other hit is chained to the summon

Nvm it bypasses

[long glacier]

Ahahahahahaha

I mean we wanted it to be good in PvP

[dusk sandal]

It's might still be worse than gigla on pvp offense, because gigla ss3 is a lot safer if you do whiff and they were already bypassing 2nd chance with CD. But gsh HyPa is definitely looking like the highest raw turn 1 damage. Can always fall back to BP if you want to be slightly safer at the expense of damage

[bitter cedar]

As I was doing a bit of live arena with gsh… I was thinking… I hope this gets fixed with the new stats from beta

So Odie if you read me buddy thanks in advance

Because that’s not even a shame it’s a disgrace

Far from being shit gear either

And I’m even 30 AL above

Don’t even think that’s a one off… miss all the time… it’s great to do damage but it’s even better to actually hit people

I don’t have the same gear in beta so can’t do much PvP to see if it is better or the same to be honest.

[dusk sandal]

Use nolans staff in offhand for 99% hit chance

Deity dex is hard/ impossible to outstat with raw dex

[devout garden]

Yeah, Nolan's is a must have when using BP in pvp

[dusk sandal]

Benefact amity is also not doing anything due to M1 cap. Can use 15% full hp dmg amity

[bitter cedar]

Losing damage or touching the target

Yeah ok 😝 thanks

Other solution?

https://tenor.com/view/honest-word-its-honest-work-it-aint-much-it-aint-much-but-its-honest-work-gif-13763573

15% accuracy and more magic or 40% accuracy and low magic….. huuum

[dusk sandal]

Even on live gsh is quite decent at pvp offense imo, mainly due to summons bypassing second chance

[dusk sandal]

Nolans staff every time

[bitter cedar]

Thats a lot more stats and adorns though

But yeah if you don’t hit then what’s the point… ok thanks

[dusk sandal]

With riftstaff, if someone has ~1200 more dex than you, you will still have like a 25% chance to miss. Whereas with nolans it's still 1%

[bitter cedar]

Rift staff would be raid I guess

Or a good nekro off hand

[devout garden]

40%

[bitter cedar]

Nolan is cooling already. Thanks for your help all.

[dusk sandal]

The second chance does help a bit to live 1 turn longer but like what builds would you use on defense? Cant use pacts because your summons are nuked. Ss3 is going to get nerfed in beta. Do we just copy heretic builds or smth?

But then your ai might still cast summons randomly

[surreal zodiac]

probably chakram

or ara's edge

[dusk sandal]

I tried but its bad

like, heretic already isnt the greatest pvp defense class when compared to classes like gilga, deity, beo etc (although it might be better than realm), but gsh is just an objective downgrade from that. You dont have pet to cast woo or db2, no 25% crit bonus from heretic, you dont have steadfast so you might need to bring immunities, your second chance doesnt get you into passive as deep as mana rush does (although thats kinda broken lol), your second chance most likely wont proc 2 times unless you happen to have another summon on the field. You also have less control over your AI because you have to use some of your slots for summons to have the second chance, which means your AI will just cast summons sometimes and you cant do much about it

so on defense I think it wont be good still. Maybe if it's meant to be more an offensive class that's fine, but it's not like we have any good pvp defense alternatives between the gs classes. GSA has bad hp, no second chance and can be countered easily with +beast taming gear. Only thing GSA has is yel chest for parapet but that doesnt help much

its really frustrating to see low al players taking zones from my al100+ gs and not being able to do much about it. My heretic does way better on defense by comparison.

Like what build are you supposed to use on gsh. Scythe/chakram build gets ruined by ai casting summons, and to get half decent damage from those spells I need to run trev charm, but then I can get statused into oblivion very easily. But you also cant do summon focused damage build because gsh summons do no damage. Also cant do bp/hypa because your summons will get sacced by the second chance

But I cant really think of good solutions tbh. An improvement might be less priority to casting summons on gsh and it would be a bit better. But with that it's still going to be worse on defense than every class except for maybe base realm / realm corvus

[devout garden]

I’ll keep using GSA in PvP def

With parapets and a tanky build it works just fine

[devout garden]

Although yeah, this happens

[dusk sandal]

Fine compared to what. Its worse than every other class

Fine compared to live gsh maybe

[devout garden]

I win a decent amount of war defs, tbh

Although that’s mostly because people don’t expect an ecto

But I mean, we have a very good offense, even more now with HyPa

So I can see us still being bad in the def

[dusk sandal]

Well I can tell you after hocing from gs to heretic I am winning wayyy more war defenses

I have literally never seen a gsa defense build that made me sweat

Its always an easy oneshot or maybe a 2 shot if they get parapet block

[devout garden]

But thats also because most GS players don’t really care about PvP, and usually have trash builds

Accentuated in the high AL ones

[dusk sandal]

I would say the area defense meta is high hp/defense, ss3 build on second chance classes. Can also throw in parapet and mammoth to be even more annoying. The best classes for that are gigla, deity and beoh. Hell even on my heretic I've found SS3 performs the best on defense, although its not as good for me as it is for those other classes. Realms are usually quite easy to kill due to not having second chance and SS3 completely bypassing dex, but I've seen some good dorado builds.

[devout garden]

Yeah, Dorados can be really annoying if they have very high hp, since you can’t oneshot them and if you don’t kill them, they are redlined now

With your hit*

[dusk sandal]

GSA is definitely below realm dorado in terms of defense, and probably below the other realms as well since they can at least kill you if they get a turn. I would consider GSA to be the third worst pvp defense class in the game, only better than gs and gsh. GSH (non beta) is currently the worst defense T10 class in the game imo.

[devout garden]

Yeah, base at least has decent summons, and can use Ultima

Although I wouldn’t try using Ultima on PvP def

But like

#1009229920087593000 message

That’s also why I created this sequence, each post linking to the previous one

To show that it can kind of work in the def

And only posting the best ones, since there are many defenses that I don’t post

[dusk sandal]

that is just a gigantic skill issue lol. Probably his pet targeting the summons or something. He could've swapped to beoh ss3 and easily oneshot you

[devout garden]

Maybe that one, but not the D.Ursas and Gilgas before them

Im previous posts

[dusk sandal]

but you are now comparing your war defense wins as GSA to what? You have only played GSA so you have nothing to compare to. You don't know how much you would be winning if you would play another class. My observeration is that my heretic is winning way more war defenses than my GS. That is also my observation when I look at people taking territories from my GS vs my heretic

and like, I dont remember dying to a GSA ever on pvp offense. Whereas I've seen gilga, deity, beo and some heretic builds that really forced me to adapt my builds in order to win

another thing that some other people brought up as well, maybe its better if the second chance doesnt sac the entire field but leaves 1 summon alive if there is more than 1. Then we could at least use hypa on defense instead of using temu heretic builds, and we could potentially second chance again

[devout garden]

https://tenor.com/view/feliz-año-2024-gif-17162712286472054245

[dusk sandal]

tldr: bufr gsh

let me also compare it to temu heretic build

Default inclination

the ai is just obsessed with summoning for whatever reason lol

[ornate nacelle]

That's so funny when they have "less effective" summoning trait..
Bring back battalions..
It has good synergy with CR2, it's not that broken since they don't have ascended summons..

[lyric fjord]

Battalions + Second Chance? wouldn't that be a bit much?

[void portal]

give nerfed battalion

maybe it will not be overpowered with second chance

[gilded skiff]

Battalion is already a kind of 2nd chance since if you get hit you probably die, so summon taking the hit for you is saving you

[dusk sandal]

tbh, batallions barely does anything in pvp I feel like stonewarg on heretic blocks more for me than batallions does on GSA

[void portal]

what about dodge it can help

[dusk sandal]

I would rather have steadfast or a derivative of it, although I know odie doesnt want everyone and their grandma to have steadfast

[lyric fjord]

in terms of probability, Stonewarg is worse than the pvp adjusted battalions

[void portal]

since gsh is related to thief classline too maybe dodge can fit in identity and help in survivability aswell

[dusk sandal]

what do you mean with dodge

you can already dodge if you have enough dex, but since everyone is using SS3 they just bypass that dodge chance

[void portal]

i mean a passive that can help increase dodge chance

[surreal zodiac]

mystic feathers?

[dusk sandal]

mystic feather with second chance lol

yeah that could help

[void portal]

sure hit spells are always weakness of dodge builds

[void portal]

yeah

i always wanted avidity on gsh but i don't think it'll ever happen

[dusk sandal]

mystic feather on top of second chance could actually be pretty damn good for pvp, but I dont think we're going to get it. And mystic feather is not that useful of a passive in pve tbh. Its kinda like mystic feather on heretic corvus, cant really get usage out of it with no high tenacity

[void portal]

then what can we do for survivability of gsh (tho this class is meant to be glass cannon we still need a little survivability)

[dusk sandal]

idk what the goal with gsh in pvp is tho. I dont think its meant to be a super good defense class and is more focused on offense? So if the AI move selection prioritized summons less, I think you could have OKish pvp defense builds. Ideally would like to see that second chance leaves 1 summon on the field if there are >=2 summons on the field, so we could actually utilize HyPa on defense, that would also help a bit in pve

[devout garden]

Nah, it would be omega useless, outside of BoF

Like, if you get hit in pvp, you either die or get a SC proc

Mystic Feather wouldn't really help us, since we are really fragile

That's probably also why H.Corvus now has mana feather instead of mystic feather

But it would be broken if we had the two

[dusk sandal]

not even broken I think

[void portal]

let gsh be broken

[dusk sandal]

I mean an opponent can just easily use perfect shot, bolt 4 or whatever and kill you through second chance + mf

[devout garden]

Nah yeah, not even broken, just kinda strong

But like, that's also the reason why H.Corvus doesn't have SC

You just can't have the two together

[void portal]

if I'm not wrong our objective is to make gsh kinda strong

[dusk sandal]

mana feather is definitely worse in pvp defense tho. At least with mystic feather it does help if your opponent doesnt oneshot you. Mana feather isnt going to do anything in pvp

oro what do you want to see for gsh in pvp?

youre like the biggest BoF gs player

[devout garden]

Yeah, for Corvus it only really works in BoF, since outside of that they are getting oneshot

And in PvE it's really good, paired with the flask that reduces mana and all

I just don't think we'll get both SC and Mystic feather, seeing what other classes have, and if we got it, I don't think MF would be useful in any way in PVP

[devout garden]

Ngl, I'm more than happy just with the current HyPa

Since I won't be using GSH in the def and it already works great for me in BoF and in the offense

But that's just me

[dusk sandal]

but in the past I've had the problem that I used gsh (in the glory days of beithir cheese), and I was just losing territories every time I swapped. So I at least want it to be half decent at defense

[devout garden]

Yeah, if it can be better than it is right now it would be great, I just don't want to give up something else so it can happen

Although it also depends on what we might need to give up (if that situation ends up happening)

[ornate nacelle]

If GSH have ascended summons, yes..
Since summon will grow with that..
But GSH don't have that, basically their summon will hit maximum stats of every possible gear that give +xx summon stats..
It become weaker with auto summon from CR2..
It's still easy to wipe GSH summons rather than GS/GSA summons..

[dusk sandal]

imo I really dont think we should need to give up anything.. The main annoyance rn is AI spamming summons on defense and nothing you can do about it

and ideally second chance leaves 1 summon so we can use hypa, but if we dont get that then we can always do temu heretic or maybe still ss3 if it's good enough

[dusk sandal]

you want batallions for pvp or pve mainly? Or both?

[cobalt ore]

Jesus christ that sent chills up my spine

[dusk sandal]

I mean, it's gsh, just perfect shot or status it

[ornate nacelle]

Battalions is a versatile ability..
But if I forced to pick where they should be..
Mostly go for pvp..
Since it serve their early purpose to be good at pvp..
They're not gonna be exposed too much..

[ornate nacelle]

Summons can protect summoner from debuff..

[dusk sandal]

but yeah feels like it's been a hot minute since gsh has seen changes in beta. Would be awesome to see some tweaks again 👀 although ig it must also be kinda exhausting for odie to spend this much dev time on a single class

[long glacier]

Well with CR2 and 2nd chance proccing you can counterattack 35% of 50% of the time.

Still better odds than current Battalions

With HyPa/BP that is.

Also i don't see us getting more than one defensive passives.

[dusk sandal]

How do you want to make a build out of 35% proc chance tho

And your ai will just cast summons instead of hypa lol

[long glacier]

The main problem with any defensive GS build is it summoning summons (since it classifies them as offensive spells?)

No defensive passive(s) will change that.
So imo how the AI handles summoning spells should change in the first place.

[void portal]

guys what is second chance probability and how it is affected by no. of summon present on field

[ornate nacelle]

This is GSH in beta..
You can imagine when A.I. take too long to summon, only to be failed?

[devout garden]

That’s only for summon stats, not that it can fail

[dusk sandal]

It just means lower summon stats

[long glacier]

Is it? I had cases of summon dead failing and thought it would happen cause of CR2.

[ornate nacelle]

If you look closely, it still have 1 slot open for summon..

[long glacier]

Yes, summoned around 50 Hatis and it failed like 3 times

That's a nono.

[long glacier]

However if the AI starts summoning a multi turn summon you're dead anyway.

[ornate nacelle]

That why they're exposed too much..

[dusk sandal]

Tf

[long glacier]

It's not the like 5% fail chance that exposes them too much.

[dusk sandal]

Why the hell is gsh already getting nerfed when its below average

[lyric fjord]

they should not fail

[long glacier]

Will do a record

Heh first try

[lyric fjord]

yeah, i see why

will fix

[ornate nacelle]

What I see from GSH on pvp is in 2 form with new CR ability and HyPa spells..

1. Is going all out using HyPa, or..
2. Stalling opponents as long as possible with CR ability..

[dusk sandal]

Ai just uses basic attack instead of hypa lol

its like BP where it requires 3+ summons for the ai to consider it?

[lyric fjord]

all pacts require >2 summons on the field for the AI to use them

[long glacier]

Soooo Pooman strat it is? Annoy Status them to death?

Anyway with the given conditions i don't see much sense in designing GSH with PvAI def in mind.

[dusk sandal]

I think I would do either scythe/chakram 2H build or ss3, but not expecting a lot of wins on defense lol

[dusk sandal]

but the AI-using-summon-spell problem has plagued us for so long

I dont want to lose a bunch of settlements every time I swap to gsh like I do now

[ornate nacelle]

It's possible since they have access to thief gear which offer one of the toughest offhand with beast taming effect..
Afey raven, Hyperion, riftrogue..

[long glacier]

Yes you named it.
An AI problem, not a GSH problem per se.
Would be nice if it'd be fixed within the GSH changes but it's not the main focus.

[dusk sandal]

what I mentioned here is all I want to see: #1410277906935975976 message
not expecting additional defense passives or anything

[long glacier]

Yes that'd help a ton

[dusk sandal]

Its clearly prioritizing the summons over all the other spells for some reason

[ornate nacelle]

Maybe they need to get Phoenix treatment..
Only summoning when there is no summons?

[dusk sandal]

but then it will still trigger after every second chance

imo if we place summons in the last 3-4 spell slots, the ai should just not consider those. Then on gsa you would just place it somewhere in your first few slots if you want your ai to cast summons

[ornate nacelle]

It's complicated..

[long glacier]

Funnily enough Paladin AI relatively reliably uses WoO n def buffs

[ornate nacelle]

While GSH AI just singing Somewhere I Belong..

[fast garnet]

Excuse me

When are you gonna roll out the beta for that on hoa beta app?

[sharp rapids]

How's the state of GS hydrus?

[dusk sandal]

Better than live, but still not in a great spot

It's worse than heretic in every way except maybe pvp offense (non bof)

it's pretty damn difficult to design a player based damage class without a pet

[surreal zodiac]

truly, esp when the class itself sacrifices every entities around him

[surreal zodiac]

still far from a great horde class it's supposed to be. Rn sustaining hypa and getting t buffs are a must

but it's certainly better than live gsh

[fast garnet]

Why not use eastern regalia

Or indtroduce more gear or weapons which give bonuses

[dusk sandal]

because it sucks?

[fast garnet]

When not having a follower

[dusk sandal]

we are talking about horde. Hypa is not sustainable aoe in horde content, which means you have to use BL2 or despair, hence no eastern regalia

eastern regalia bonus is additive on top of AL so diminishes the higher AL you are. Whereas temp buffs are just straight multiplicative. Of course buffs are much stronger, and gsh doesnt get them because no pet

also I think eastern regalia bonus doesnt even work for gs:

Classes that can take a follower become stronger without one.

gs can't take a follower

a small additive +25% stat bonus is nothing compared to DC, T mag^3 or berserk 1 from pets

literally try out gsh in the beta and you'll find it's pretty damn bad at horde content still

[fast garnet]

Literally i cant because Odie wont roll out beta for hoa

[dusk sandal]

I mean you can still try orna beta

[fast garnet]

Yeah right

Without a character

[dusk sandal]

you just get a 250 char if you create an account

I'll guarantee you that any deity or heretic main will be shocked at how bad gsh horde is lol

[fast garnet]

Hm

Ima try that

WIt

Thanks for the top

Tip

[dusk sandal]

yup agree. Temp buff passive could also help a bit in raids

I personally dont care how long this rework will take. I just really dont want it to flop again

[long glacier]

Well technically we had no rework to flop yet since nothing hit live

[fast garnet]

I think it will be like the last gs rework attempt

It was getting a rework until the "testers" made it so complicated that everyone rebelled against the update in the end

[long glacier]

We'll see.
Quadratic BP is still on the table and the possible consequences for GSH are unknown.

[fast garnet]

WhTs that

Quadratic bp

[dusk sandal]

it's on the table? I havent seen much discussion about it

[long glacier]

Well BP scales off of your mag and summon HP.
With every AscLvl both stats increase for base GS and GSA.
So at AL100 BP does not do double dmg for them like any other spell but quadruple dmg.

[long glacier]

It's mentioned at the roadmap along with SS adjustments however got scrapped midway.
It's still on the table but not currently worked at afaik.

[devout sedge]

I suppose that it will either use summon hp before AL or get a cap on how many HP it can gather in the calculation, I don't see other possible solution of the top of my head

While as far as gsh is concerned I still think CR rate is too low

Around 70% - 80% imo would be good, what you summon with CR is still fodder

[dusk sandal]

summon hp before al is an OK solution. But if that were to happen I think the floor damage needs to increase, because current BP even with the quadratic scaling is not even that strong below 50 ish AL

just due to the amount of setup required normally to get it going. Whereas ultima does similar if not more damage with almost no setupo

[dusk sandal]

yeah, but even with 100% CR I dont think it would help that much in horde content? Or are you talking more about raids

[devout sedge]

Yeah I was thinking about raids and pvp, 100% means at least one summon out everytime and I can see people saying it would be op

[devout sedge]

That's why a would prefer a cap, so that the increase stops being quadratic only after a certain AL

[long glacier]

If CR proccs before PE4 then you'd start every floor with 3 summons after offing your board to clear a floor.

But atm i'm just waiting what Odie is willing to pull off.

[devout sedge]

If it proccs before, PE4 wouldn't procc

[dusk sandal]

Reason why I prefer summon stats before al is because anguish stats would then at least still improve bp damage

[dusk sandal]

Hmm yeah but that's still not enough to clear a floor with 4-5 enemies

[devout sedge]

That's true as well

[devout sedge]

You would have to play with parting remark, which would still be slower than other classes

[long glacier]

Soz i meant if it's procc after PE4

[devout sedge]

funny idea I just had, necromantic power, you have 20% to gain an extra turn per summon sacrified

sac pact 2 heals you fully and makes you gain an extra turn, also taps in the thiefy part of the class

[dusk sandal]

ngl, I still dont know if I like the idea of gsh being able to sustain hypa full aoe as it goes against the idea that either a 2H weapon or spec is required for this. But at the same time I also dont want gsh to be just another bl2 spammer. It might have been cool if yelmogus quarterstaff had a full AoE hypa-like pact instead of BL2. That way, gsh could naturally synergize with it with its pact bonus and higher mag stat. But I guess it's too late now to change the offhand skill on that weapon

[hollow plume]

time to hoc my whopping 3 als to gs

[surreal zodiac]

u should

u won't regret it, as long the we get what we need from this rework

[surreal zodiac]

I've given up on the idea that it should be a better raider than base gs, can't really compete with quad scale. As for it being able to sustain hypa, I'd rather the class have it than to be just another bl2 spammer. Bl2 is cool don't get me wrong, but having your own identity is cooler, if all i wanted to do is bl2 I'd just go heretic or deity for that.

pact bonus would've been nice as u mentioned but yeah too late for that one now

being able to sustain hypa and getting t. buffs reliably is what it really needs, to be comparable to those mages. After that we'll see if we'll still encounter some issues

[dusk sandal]

Damn you're optimistic lol

If what we have in beta now would be shipped to live, I'd be disappointed. But we've already discussed the problems and proposed some solutions so I guess thats all we can do

[surreal zodiac]

damn right i am

[surreal zodiac]

nah i dont think odie would ship a half done rework in live

like legit the only thing that holds back gsh is it being able to access t. buffs

i really hope the 3rd suggestion on t.buffs would be implemented for it

[dusk sandal]

How do you envision dungeons then? Bl2 spam with the temps?

Because even with fully sustainable hypa you can kill max 3 mobs per floor

[surreal zodiac]

i'd charge my passive til i get 100% and switch it up with bl2, i'd max out my passive asap so i dont have any troubles dealing t10 fallen bosses

or i could just keep doing hypa

i dont mind hitting 3 enemies, but would've been nice if its full aoe but ill try to make it work

then probably dof spec? pact amities are not really gonna much capped at 5%

so no point of doing oracle

i dont think 10% would add much if u have both 5% pact amity

[dusk sandal]

Realistically gsh is going to use bl2 in towers and probably in dungeons as well (cause hypa isnt full aoe and not sustainable). But then I cant help but feel it'd be a temu heretic

[surreal zodiac]

yeah i can see that

[dusk sandal]

But with none of the coolness of stuff like crit poise and flasks

[surreal zodiac]

if hypa is only sustainable + temp buffs its legit viable imo

imagine using hypa and u have tower guardian + phoenix

t mag x3 and db2 every now and then (referring to the 3rd option in the suggested t. buffs)

cus u have no pet to use right? at the end of the day even if you're glass canon you'd want some survivability in your build

equip ortanite golem and then hypa (you'd get woo) it aint bad, a unique way to give yourself a buff from a petless class

rather than just getting random buffs everytime u kill/sacrifice a summon

[surreal zodiac]

true, and even doe we have bl2 rn if we didnt have it, ara vesta would be meta or one of the most picked aoe spells rn for dungeon

sure it may not be as fast to what we have now (bl2) but it'd be reliable in some way

could be the same case for gsh if hypa would be only sustainable, like even without bl2 it should be capable to clear dungeons

[dusk sandal]

Maybe we can still get an full aoe hypa on a 2h weapon as well. Then we would have less similar aoe builds than heretics (pact gear instead of crit)

Like what problems can be solved with gear and which should be solved on a class level. Maybe this is a gear level problem

[surreal zodiac]

probably

there's only a few gears that gives pact boost

since the reworked heretic came, there's been some items for it

maybe the other problems the we face relies on having a gear that revolves around the playstyle like u said

[dusk sandal]

comparison between current beta gsh and heretic:

• world farm: both classes would use bl2. Heretic can precharge iconoclast for +100% stats for free so is better by a lot.
• towers: both classes would use bl2, heretic ara will be better with higher turn 1 BL2 damage, and if you need it vestaga nuke
• dungeons: both classes would use bl2. Heretic has pet buffs, easier passive charging, steadfast for easier setup, 2.5x innate crit modifier and optionally corvus crit poise.
• raids: heretic qc ultima is faster than gsh hypa and gsh BP, and heretic is also tankier than a BP gsh.
• pvp offense: honestly gsh probably takes it with higher turn 1 damage with hypa than heretic, while also bypassing second chance.
• pvp defense: heretic easily takes it because it has mana rush and SF2. Gsh also has second chance but it's worse than mana rush because it doesnt charge passive as much, and it sacrifices your summons. Gsh AI will also spam summons if you have them equipped, but you need to have them equipped to have the second chance, so you have very little control over your AI.
• Bof: honestly not sure but pretty sure heretic still takes it with bloodray / vesta builds

it's hard to justify playing gsh over heretic.. I think a lot of it is just due to the fact that gsh is forced into playing crit builds, where it will obviously be outdone by heretic. That is the result of the majority of content requiring aoe, and BL2 being the best full aoe option there is, while hypa is not full aoe

[long glacier]

Would it be the same in a world w/o BL2?

[dusk sandal]

without BL2:

• world farm: heretic would use despair, gsh would probably use hypa or despair? Problem is hypa would only kill 2 enemies while you would face 3 enemies with the rift fragment, and gsh using despair would be worse
• towers: heretic would probably use vestaga build or otherwise despair (vestaga is insane high damage crit aoe). Gsh would probably use hypa or despair, but would be worse than heretic still
• dungeons: heretic would use despair and still has the pet buffs and efficacious, beating out gsh.

heretic has a massive advantage with despair due to the fact that you wont hit immunes because it has efficacious

[surreal zodiac]

for horde world farming, how bout we make gsh keep all the soul passive every time it sacrifices it summons and then whenever u leave the game it'd go back to 0.

[dusk sandal]

this would be insanely strong tho if it works in all content. You'd have full 100% passive at all times

[surreal zodiac]

nah that's only for world farm

that way u can use your passive like other classes who just redlines and blue lines

[dusk sandal]

but I'm still not a big fan of the gsh passive. Feels like it's such a chore to charge vs similar passives (iconoclast, resurgence), and it's not like it provides a bigger stat boost than those passives

[surreal zodiac]

base deity could do purple line

i just wish the amount of summons is tied to the amount you'll hit with your aoe

[dusk sandal]

wym

you mean it goes up to 5?

[surreal zodiac]

like if theres only 2 summons in the field you can only hit 2 mobs with hypa

[surreal zodiac]

i wish it was hitting 3 enemies even with only 2 summons in the field

cus rn afaik u need to have 3 summons to hit 3 enemies

[dusk sandal]

yeah

[surreal zodiac]

in comparison with ara vesta 4 u could hit 3 and it's based on the chance to hit a 3rd enemy (correct me if im wrong) and most of the time it hits 3

full aoe would've been too much i feel like and many would complain. 3 seems fair, and pair that with t. buffs + sustainable hypa

[dusk sandal]

how would you achieve sustainable hypa

give us Hypa 3 as a weapon offhand skill or something, sac 3 summons to hit 5 targets

[void portal]

i wonder if that will happen

[surreal zodiac]

option 1, we could go for kaines idea.

option 2 increase the cr passive and give us some items that would compensate for cr passive.

option 3 instead of killing your summon completely, maybe work like a blood pact? it takes chunks of its health overtime. And summons do automatically spawn after the next floor. That way the 2nd passive is not fully disregarded.

[dusk sandal]

but I still think the T buff passive is the most important. We can have full aoe hypa and we'd still be behind other classes due to not having pet buffs

[surreal zodiac]

cus right now hypa kills off your entire summons, yeah cool that's a fast method to charge your passive.

I say make 2 skills or another skills, 1 that's gonna use the whole summons hp for it to charge its passive. And the other one is the 3rd option i mentioned

[surreal zodiac]

yes that too, t. buff is crucial for this to work cause even doe it's sustainable is it enough to deal damage?

so i would suggest my idea again

to which

u can get the buffs via summons loadout. if a summon has great meditation and u sacrifice that summon you'll that buff.

this is a perfect synergy imo rather than a rng buff per summon killed or sacrificed why?

cus you can finally use beastfelled and aaru robe

on this one

those could actually be useful for once and for all. And for a class that doesn't use a pet and sacrifices its summons. I think we can agree that having this is a good passive to boost gsh's capabilities to get a buff and produce a good dmg output

cus rng buff messes u up, are we still gonna settle for less? i know we're a glass cannon but we don't want rng t. mag 3x or ward of ortanite on a awkward timing

[void portal]

you are right since we are glass cannon we should have good damage potential

instead of being rng dependent

[dusk sandal]

but method would you say it's a 100% chance to get the buff from the summon or not

cause wouldnt it be a bit op

sac macaroni and tower guardian to get 4x damage bonus gauranteed

like sheeesh

[surreal zodiac]

we will work on the chances cus 100% is too much ofc.

[surreal zodiac]

this is just an idea but we could make it solid later on, is that if u have two primary summons lets say macaroni and tower guardian. If macaroni is a slot ahead of tower guardian, then we'll get d.c first when we sacrifice it. And when you get to the next floor and sacrifice tower guardian then youll get gm.

so down side is you can't get both buffs at the same time

you must sacrifice that summon on the next floor

and then we could work on chances on how much its gonna be

[dusk sandal]

yep

ok so lets dicuss towers

t buff passive still isnt gonna do much for towers where turn 1 damage is like the only thing that matters. Hypa can only kill up to 2 enemies turn 1, which means we're still forced into BL2.

[void portal]

allowing gsh to keep its passive(hydrus) in the tower should help right?

[surreal zodiac]

yes that is right, we really can't utilize it over there and the way hypa is right now we are likely to use bl2 for it

and for towers, idk if keeping the soul passive is justified cus deity apex, and idk for hera if flask also work like apex but they can charge it

or at least deity can

cus idk for hera if flash charge carries over

[dusk sandal]

Heretic flask charge is maintained across towers encounters yes

But not iconoclast

[surreal zodiac]

so since gsh is a 3rd rate mage compared to those two, its 1st turn damage even with bl2 is going to be a weaker and idk if we should be able to keep the amount of our soul passive to prolly like 50%?

cus the other time we discussed about summons being carried over (like 3 summons) in each floor that way we could use hypa to hit 3 enemies

and i kinda want to ditch the idea that hypa should only hit two enemies if u have 2 summons as i stated above. And im thinking if soul passive should be carried over to each floor. Or we get a chance (only in towers) that we get an automatic buff according to our summons buff loudout without sacrificing them. But that is only for towers, and right now reading that it seems complicated to implement for towers? cus then you have 2 mechanics.

both options i suggested there is only to make 1st turn dmg better since that's the only thing that matters for towers

its either we carry over soul passive and it should be only 50% just to make things fair or the other one that we get an automatic (not 100% doe) buff according to our summons buff loudout without sacrificing them which only works on towers btw.

if u guys have better ideas for towers i would like to hear it

[dusk sandal]

gsh is 4th mage lol. In towers its like beoh > heretic > deity

[surreal zodiac]

yeah u right

[dusk sandal]

the thing with gsh passive is that it becomes weaker the higher al you are, just like iconoclast, resurgence etc and unlike HM3. At al100 the '+100%' passive is only 50% more damage (3/2), at al200 it's 33.3% more damage (4/3). So yeah starting with a precharged passive does help a bit but it becomes weaker the higher al you are

[surreal zodiac]

damn that kinda sucks, but i dont think people are gonna live to see the day they hit al 200. i think we could work it on this one

like us gbeing able to keep the passive

[dusk sandal]

idk tho, I think even without any additional passive gsh would be OKish at towers if it uses BL2. BL2 turn 1 damage would be below beoh and heretic and above deity, but our survivability is probably still sketchy. But I would really prefer if we got some weapon offhand skill that gives us a full aoe pact thats hits up to 5 enemies lol, because another bl2 spammer doesnt excite me that much

[surreal zodiac]

yeah i mean bl2 is nice dont get me wrong, but if i wanted to just spam bl2 all day i'd never use gs for it

actually wanted to play the class like how its supposed to

and pie btw can i see the current passive of gsh?

[dusk sandal]

You mean this?

[surreal zodiac]

yep

[dusk sandal]

Wait what, I thought we were supposed to have the same mag and hp stat as heretic

[surreal zodiac]

are we not?

didnt we get it already?

[dusk sandal]

I mean you can see that heretic still has 558 more base hgp and 82 more mag

[surreal zodiac]

damn

truly a 6th rate mage class at this point xd

tbh i wanted the stats to be more, for a celestial mage class stats are a bit underwhelming i would say

[dusk sandal]

I swear we had similar stats to heretic before or am I tripping

[surreal zodiac]

probably a bug or something

[median harness]

It is more similar to HCorvus, yeah?

[surreal zodiac]

but yeah i was going to say something about hydrus pact earlier im just gonna add something, cus rn it sacrifices 3 summons right? we can branch that skill line just a lil bit.

but before that
hypa should be hitting 3 enemies regardless of the amount of summons it shouldnt be bound by amount.

aight so for hypa we edit the skill a bit, for hypa 1 you'll sacrifice every summon to deal damage and for hypa 2 we'll only reduce like 20% of the summons hp each time we use it that way hypa is sustainable. Cus right now aint no way auto summon is actually gonna help us sustain it.

[dusk sandal]

higher mag than heretic corvus but lower hp. However heretic corvus still mops the floor with gsh due to having access to pets and crit poise lol

[dusk sandal]

Rn it's the number of summons sacced = the number of targets hit up to 3

[surreal zodiac]

auto summon is still a must cus it'll help our survivability, say that i used hypa 1 for charging my passive then auto summoned procced i could still use hypa 2 and sustain it till it dies and i get my 2 summons back on the next floor.

and add this passive on gsh, ive been thinking to change the auto summons but after thinking about it we do really need it so instead of changing the auto summon, we keep it and then add this as another passive to synergize everything for gsh's playstyle

Spell slot buffs from summon sacrifice: when you sac a summon, you receive one of the buffs from their available set of spell slots
Pros:
Synergizes well with the Hydrus passive flow, quick to get buffs.
The most variety in summons. Stonewarg to get WoO (classified as buff), phoenix warrior for DB2, penguin for DC etc
Synergy with gear (beast garb) due to that gear adding spells to the summon spell slots
Cons:
Most difficult to implement, would require checking spell slots every time a summon is sacced
May be difficult to balance.

[dusk sandal]

But then after 5 turns you kill all your summons and you have an empty field with no summons

[surreal zodiac]

it would auto summon the next floor

[void portal]

if hypa 2 only takes 20% hp of summons then it can work because we still have life pact to make it sustainable

[surreal zodiac]

cus say that you used summon dead 1st turn and used hypa on 1st floor and killed every enemy, and every summons are dead after tgat right? and u get 50% soul charge right off the bat and your 2 primary summons are back on floor 2

[surreal zodiac]

i dont think u need to doe, cus after u killed the two summons u would have it automatically revive on the next floor

[void portal]

i see

i still believe that mass sacrificing pacts are not good and can be very dangerous

[surreal zodiac]

i really hope this passive will be considering for gsh cus it is truly one of best passive options that could actually synergize with a lot of summons + items and for a petless class this is huge and very thematic as well

[surreal zodiac]

in that case i'd use that as clean up to charge it, for example there's 5 enamies on the floor id use hypa 2 first and then summon dead after that hypa 1

[void portal]

yeah

[surreal zodiac]

that way i could charge it efficiently

[dusk sandal]

miss
Or Cr: how about no

[void portal]

i wish we get a chance to survive till next turn

[surreal zodiac]

we will cus summosn are auto summoned

like even now on live gsh

if u have 2 primary summons on the field and u sacrifice them and move on to next floor

its insta revived or summoned

[void portal]

i mean if the opponent isn't defeated even after hypa then we don't have any way to survive next turn

ofc if we one shot the opponent then there is no issue

[surreal zodiac]

so u may be asking whats the purpose of auto summon on cr then? like say that u dont wanna play hypa 2 and u immediately want to get the buff by sacrificing them first by using hypa 1, there's still a chance cr would proc and we would get the a summon that could give us 2nd chance just in case

[void portal]

I'm more interested in a fix no. of summon sacrificed for example 3 summon are sacrificed for hypa 2

all summon is a bit scary

[surreal zodiac]

yeah and then you need to summon 3 summons for u to be able to hit 3 enemies, assuming u want the current hypa

[void portal]

as long as it's not all summon I'm fine with it

since there is a possibility that our damage isn't enough to defeat the opponent or spell miss then we don't have any way to survive next turn

i understand it's a glass cannon but sacrificing all summon can be a bit too much (tho it helps in filling passive faster)

[surreal zodiac]

the thing that i wanna add to about the revised hypa, for hypa 1 if u sacrifice all the summons and u missed 1 mob there's only gonna be 1 summon left that way you have a summon standing by for 2nd chance

[void portal]

yeah that's good

1 summon can work as a lifeline

how about hypa 3 that limits the sacrifice to x(x<5)and deals aoe (2 or 3)

so we have a passive filling hypa

and a hypa we can use after filling our passive and getting buffs (by sacrificing)

[dusk sandal]

But method even with your solution hypa wouldnt be full aoe right? So would you still use bl2 in dungeons?

[surreal zodiac]

unfortunately yes, initially i wanted it to be full aoe but i feel like its too much to ask for and would be deemed op by other people

but as u said earlier, they could come up with items that could boost it that way it becomes full aoe if they dont want it to be a full aoe on its own

[surreal zodiac]

i might probably use bl2 if i wanted to speed some things up but considering that i use mammoth panda for the most part i'd probably use hypa more for it

i dont bl2 that much, i only use it if i have something to do and wanted to clear things very fast

but to be honest its either make gsh truly functional with hypa full aoe or let it be worse for the rest of its existence i try to be considerate to not make it full aoe but seeing how under performing it is and how 2h weapons are the most dominant meta weapon rn guess asking for a full aoe doesnt seem too much too ask for now? I really wanted to play a different playstyle, yes at the very core its full aoe like other 2h weapons but the difference is you get to do different build that functions on a different method for it to be powered up (summons being the main fuel).

Because its just the same build for bl2 and other 2h weapons no matter what class, at least here we get to do things differently while being able to function the same at the very core. im trynna hold back to suggest to make it full aoe, to make it fair but the truth is youll end up using bl2 and will be just a bl2 class spam

[void portal]

but why even use gsh if you are dependent on weapons and not skills and passive

it's kind of disappointing

yeah

and that's bad

class will lose its identity

[surreal zodiac]

even with the solution i came up, at the end of the day bl2 will get used a lot by the majority of players and hypa will always be just a support. So if we can make it a full aoe then things would be different, maybe the solution i came up with would be a nice foundation or direction for gsh to gain a consistent way for t. buffs, sustaining hypa, and also synergizing with a full aoe hypa 2

we could always tweak it out if its too broken or something imo, and since the release gsh has been underwhelming i just dont want the rework to be underwhelming as well

[void portal]

a gear that allows gsh to do full aoe hypa?

[surreal zodiac]

yes its either we get to make it a full aoe via gear, or just make it full aoe by itself

if its gonna be full aoe, the solution i came up with would synergize much better

[dusk sandal]

As a 2h offhand spell is my preference

[void portal]

since most of gs gear involves buff spread we can try to get more pact gear and aoe hypa gear

for gs pact playstyle and gsh

[surreal zodiac]

aight so full aoe it is via gear?

[void portal]

rn summoner playstyle only involves buffing ourselves and summons

[surreal zodiac]

i dont mind it really as long its full aoe

[void portal]

with new gear we can promote pacts too

since there are very less pact gears

[dusk sandal]

Yea imo but would it be added on top of existing gear or a new piece of gear

[surreal zodiac]

a rework on some rift items doesnt seem so bad

im just gonna wait for the opinions of other gs mains about it

[dusk sandal]

Add it on top of yel quarterstaff to screw over beoh and deity bl2 spammers

[surreal zodiac]

they'd be hella mad

[devout sedge]

I agree with full AoE pact on off-hand ability, I still think gsh abilities are kind of lacking (CR too low for example, PE could get a gsh version where you have a chance to have 3 summons at the start of a battle)

[dusk sandal]

Honestly hyperion staff has a pretty useless offhand spell now (asteria stance)

But it wouldnt really fit the theme of thst gear

[void portal]

are multiple summons possible with cr passive

[devout sedge]

Rift distortion manablades could be changed, I don't recall them having a useful offhand

[dusk sandal]

No just 35% chance to get 1 summon

[surreal zodiac]

aight so far for the suggestions

current hypa 2 betta would become hypa1
hypa2 will only use 20% summons hp everytime u cast it to sustain it better instead of sacrificing all summons
t. buffs via summons load out when sacrificed
full aoe hypa through items
new hypa 1 would leave 1 summon in the field if it missed a mob for insurance on 2nd chance
soul buff being carried through towers with a 50% cap only

imma just wait for the opinions of the other gs mains for the stuff we've discussed so far

just to see if everyone will agree to proceed on this track

[devout sedge]

Hypa using only 20% doesn't sit right with me, I would rather see something like CR having higher chance to activate on kill, with every kill a different CR chance (like 3 kills, 60% chance to procc CR 3 times)

[surreal zodiac]

would that be enough to be sustainable?

to justify my suggestion, hypa 2 using only 20% of the summons hp that way its sustainable, if your summons died on this floor and killed every enemy, they'll get instant revived or summon through the next floor just like on live

[devout sedge]

Potentially you can get 4 summons after 1 hypa

[surreal zodiac]

that way u dont have to worry about cr not being able to sustain hypa, and cr would also proc only its 35% there's still a potential for a 3rd summon all of your summons died

[surreal zodiac]

well you could still do that on what i suggested

we just swapped hypa 2 to make it hypa 1

[surreal zodiac]

and then change hypa 2 to this

[devout sedge]

Would feel like a budget blood pact imo

[surreal zodiac]

i based it off on bp ngl just to make it sustainable, and other reason why i also suggested that is to synergize it with its passive

cus most of the time you're gonna have a summon which can proc a 2nd chance

[surreal zodiac]

but since i also added something here that whenever u miss a summon there'll be 1 summon left to act as an insurance, ig as long we have a sustainable hypa

we could disregard the 20% hp reduction on summons per hypa used

im only doubting its sustainability tbh, even pie said even if we give it a 100cr if hypa is not sustainable then you'll still be force to just spam bl2. But since we are going to make hypa full aoe with items and then hpya would probably be sustainable. Cus you're hitting all enemies at the expense of losing every summon in the field. If we go to your suggestion for 60% it might be sustainable? so im still 50 50 there cus idk if 60% auto summon is enough to support hypa.

[devout sedge]

60% was a random number to explain how it worked in my mind, I'm on the side CR should be 100%

[surreal zodiac]

that'd be nice, but im not sure if odie would give us that

[long glacier]

Based on all we discussed and the main suggestions in mind

• CR increase for constant summons
• full AoE HyPa
• t.buff generation by e.g. dying summons

What is the most important thing GSH needs to do what's not in the beta yet.
Simple answers only

[dusk sandal]

• t buff generation
• full aoe hypa as a weapon offhand spell
• fix the ai spamming summon spells on pvp defense

[long glacier]

So t.buff generation?

Since those are 3 things.

[dusk sandal]

yes

[surreal zodiac]

t. buff generation via summon's loud out upon death is a must to make gsh viables for any builds

and what pie said for the other 2

[void portal]

and if hypa is sacrificing all summons then one summon should survive for second chance passive

[long glacier]

One thing only.

One above all.
The top priority.
The one ring to rule them all.

So for you @void portal that'd be one summon left after HyPa, gotcha👍

[void portal]

yay!

[long glacier]

Anyone else to comment on #1410277906935975976 message?
It might be important.

[hearty dove]

I feel like the question has different answera depending on what the end goal is.

Giving hydrus t.mag from sacs turns it into a Brilliant Lights user

Giving hypa full aoe and more reliable summoning turns hydrus into a standalone dungeon sweeper

[dusk sandal]

Which is why I was asking for a full aoe hypa offhand spell so we wouldnt just spam bl2. Basically I think full aoe spells should still be locked to weapon

[hearty dove]

Ultimately I feel like t.mag is more realistic and less broken than the idea of standalone full aoe; but I'm not sure I'm happy with just being another BL class

Actually - is class specific standalone full AoE not already in the game? That's what half the apex spells do

Those do require charging up though. Then again, so does HyPa by resummoning I suppose

But in that case we'd need to live with the fact that we shouldn't be able to do it every turn, just like deities can't - and that doesn't seem to be the direction people want it to go

TL;DR t.mag buffs

[dusk sandal]

Im still hoping for different t buffs based on which summons were sacced. T mag would work too ig but it would feel a bit temu dara

[hearty dove]

I don't see that version working / being put into the game unless the summons have already cast the buffs on themselves

And that'd be pretty opposite to the gameplan of summon and sac

[dusk sandal]

why do you assume that

[hearty dove]

Because turn1 DC while dealing damage is not something anyone should put into the game willingly lol

[dusk sandal]

if you think the version that (has a chance to) apply the summon buff skills to you, then another more simpler option would be different buff effects based on the monster family of the summon that was sacced

[hearty dove]

That'd be less abuseable, but also more effort to put in. It'd basically be bestial bonds levels of effort at that point