Grand Summoner Hydrus Rework

[dusk sandal]

Yes

Gsh especially

The second chance in beta will help

[abstract beacon]

I love summon beithir. Probably my favorite item for summoner by far. Maybe we can make it even better in some way.

[vital pebble]

love the nukes i can pull off with it

[abstract beacon]

My man!

I'm still swapping over to summoner here from gilg so it's a work In progress

[vital pebble]

its a start

id swap that life siphon out for damage cap though

personally

[abstract beacon]

Yeah? I wasn't sure what to swap it to so I've been waiting. It just came anguished with siphon

[long glacier]

Feel free to discuss your builds herehttps://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1024038640604692581

[abstract beacon]

Yeah. Sorry for going off topic there.

[vital pebble]

i mean its kinda on topic bc i want hydrus to stay like how it is for the most part

[long glacier]

And we need detailed shots of your setup for...?

[vital pebble]

just showing what it can do and why i like it as is, and dont want them to break it

[vital pebble]

i sent damage and a weapon lol

if thats "detailed" thats sad

i didnt send my gear setup or skills, buffs i used, etc and you deleted my part of the discussion showing how i like hydrus and that that part needs to stay

[long glacier]

Apologies, i just saw a wall of screenshots and cleaned them up for the sake of rereadability.

Feel free to repost them as a whole if they underline your argument🙂

[vital pebble]

those 2 are my main argument, the other 2 were damage as well but this is the cap

[long glacier]

Btw currently in beta replicas do not nullify the pact multiplier.

[vital pebble]

the "nekromancer" thing odie is going for works amazing sith this staff and summon and i hope it doesnt get broken

[vital pebble]

thats in base game

with no replicas, just what i summoned

[long glacier]

Ik but if those changes come life does your build benefit from it?

[vital pebble]

yes and no

bc the higher health of the ones i can summon compaired to the replicas can affect damage, but no as much as the nullification does

no in the way of me using only summoned beithirs, yes in the way of letting them self replicate

i dont have the staff in the beta bc ive changed phones since the last mirror so i cant test it fully on there

had to remake my test account

[long glacier]

If you, @bitter cedar and others prefer a raid oriented (thus big numbers) GSH you should propably vote for it
#💡│suggestions message
additionally to stating it here.

[vital pebble]

but it for sure doesnt hinder me if thats the question

[vital pebble]

i like auriga more for horde content anyway so i will

[bitter cedar]

Thank you for pointing it out. You know what I voted AOE that’s fine. I will try to make work raiding with GS and GSA as people keep on saying it’s good at the moment so maybe that’s just an AL/me problem

The consensus seems to be aoe anyway

[vital pebble]

i want the class that makes it about summons to be about summons (auriga) and the class about sacrificing to do damage to keep nuking (hydrus), i dont need 2 horde of the same class, or 2 raid killers of the same class

[bitter cedar]

But gsa is good at raiding AND dungeon

Soooo

[vital pebble]

id be completely fine if they neutered ultima summoners, and raiding is slow (when being a buffer summoner) which is fine its decent but its not ultima nuke like deity or mage has

[bitter cedar]

Let me be straight.. are you new t10 or low al?

And are you orna or hoa

[vital pebble]

orna

and im not new

[bitter cedar]

Ok because at some point you want to be efficient. If I have to wait 3 more min per dungeon that’s not efficient. Or if I need 3 times at least to do a tower or a raid and I’ve got 100 raids to do… that’s annoying much

Might as well play something else really

[vital pebble]

it doesnt have to be good at everything though, thats my point, it doesnt have to be the end all be all, none of the classes should

[dusk sandal]

I still think it's a bit strange that we have to choose what gsh will be good at. Meanwhile other classes exist that excel at a whole range of content (deity, beoh, heretic). But if we got something like a temp buff from saccing summons buff, then that would be useful for both horde and raid

[surreal zodiac]

beoH ss3 raid, 3 turn kill saw some clips of nekkiii, and there's towerfall on beoA

[vital pebble]

kinda like apex skills? sacrifice a summon to activate buffs

[bitter cedar]

Yeah in all honestly I’ve been saying it I don’t know why we need to chose as I thought it was a “class rework” and not a quick fix

[dusk sandal]

the ideas we discussed were different but not really like apex, just a possbility to get temp buffs or whatever when a summon dies or is sacrificed (also different opinions there). Some people proposed simple magic buffs, others proposed getting the buffs from the summon that you sacrifice (e.g. dc from penguin, greater meditation from spiritgarm)

[vital pebble]

im talking about like the apex skills that you use the bar, in this case the summon, to get a temp buff to other summons or to yourself to rhada to your other summons

[dusk sandal]

but we are talking about gsh, the buffs would be on yourself instead of your summons since it's about dealing damage yourself instead of letting your summons do it

and why is that useful? It saves alot of time vs casting buffs yourself, which helps for making raids faster as well as dungeons

[abstract beacon]

Here's the issue though. If you're sac a summon for a buff it needs to be really strong otherwise you're trading survivability for something you can cast yourself anyway

[surreal zodiac]

dc and gm would be nice

[dusk sandal]

but the idea of the gsh gameplay loop is that you sacrifice summons anyway, its the entire point of hydrus pact

[surreal zodiac]

exactly

[dusk sandal]

and yeah right now the risk vs reward is not quite there yet, but with temp buffs it would be better

[abstract beacon]

If we like the risk vs reward sure. Otherwise the safer albeit longer option is keep your summons, buff yourself then start sac for dmg

[surreal zodiac]

.

.

[abstract beacon]

Yeah that idea is good. You start a battle with 2 summons. You Sac one right away for a buff giving up survivability then summon more and do damage or let the passive auto summon possibly while you self buff finish summoning maybe then dmg

[vital pebble]

i wonder if they will let the new hydrus skill use the beithir spell

for auto summon

(probably not its an offhand)

[twin salmon]

For me the main problem regarding gsa being so slow in horde Dungeons is that every summon is hitting one after the other, each with some delay. If the UI would allow to skip this delay and instead directly show the total damages/effects of one round at once, the clearing speed should be so much faster, even w/o any further rework. (I know not directly gsh related, but many summoners probably don't care whether gsa or gsh is good in horde content)

[vital pebble]

like all smack at once, looking like the magic chacram skill or another multihit skill

or aoe if there are multiple mobs

[lethal pasture]

Summon animation will always make GSA slower at horde then any class tbh ( with AOE ofc )

GSH could be faster at hordes but it's not there yet, charging the passive, and waiting on summon animation while doing so, it's relatively slower

You'd need some time of AOE that just comes online first turn, non buffed lol if it was to become relevant in speed

Or some way to steal buffs from summons, like previously talked about, maybe when you sac a summon you have 10% to stack a random assortment of buffs

[vital pebble]

like using anthem of lyoness

sac 1 summon to have that

[lethal pasture]

Ofc that's basically adding a whole another passive to GSH XD

This poor class 🥀

[vital pebble]

make it a skill

not passive

like achlys pact, and the others

instead of sacrificing a summon to heal you, it buffs you

[dusk sandal]

making it a passive is so much better tho, otherwise its not really better than manualy buffing

[lethal pasture]

True maybe a skill that pacts all your summons, rerolls the chance for buffs per summon you sac so it can be a 2 turn buff method

[vital pebble]

could add it to the one that heals you and reduce the healing

[vital pebble]

saves a bunch of skills, and hydrus is about the summoner not the summons hitting hard

[lethal pasture]

But as a passive would be better, so that's one less turn you spend on buffing/and sacrificing your survival

[vital pebble]

but if its a passive would multi sacing give you more chances for buffs?

[dusk sandal]

the number of skill slots should realy not be a problem. We mean that if you sacrifice a summon, it will automatically place buffs onto you

[lethal pasture]

I would assume so

[vital pebble]

like achlys sacs all but 1, so if you have 5 you would get 4

more risk and reward

[dusk sandal]

I still think odie is holding back too much with the power of gsh in the beta lol

[surreal zodiac]

with bp aoe being considered this type of buffing method of saccing your summon is the thing we only need left i assume? to make gsh horde better

[vital pebble]

if its aoe with bp 2 drain but bp1 damage he might consider doing it

[lethal pasture]

Problem with AOE bloodpact is your summons would die before floor 20 I feel/or you'd have to lifepact, but also you'd sacrifice your summons hypothetically for buffs, then have to summon bigger summons for BP to work

Maybe we need a summon that can really sustain its health? Or better summons that can summon idk

All that still sounds like a long process for AOE lol

[vital pebble]

i mean the point of new hydrus is to kill summons

[dusk sandal]

the aoe pact could be a hypa derivative, and then you have CR that summons you fodder from time to time

[vital pebble]

yea the new charon passive seems cool

like i said before i hope it can do beithir too

[lethal pasture]

I get that but you can't AOE bloodpact with undead lmaoo

unless we could summon undead bone golems as our passive? ( lean into the nekromacer side to it odie, give us more undead 😈🗣 )

[vital pebble]

the new charon passive summons randoms from your skills you have equiped

[lethal pasture]

Beithir can't be equipped into a skill slot so I wouldn't think it could lol

[dusk sandal]

but I dont think it can be your sole method of aoe damage, assuming it will be a pseudo aoe (1-2 targets hit). It would probably be more suited for towers encounters where you start with a few summons and have at most 5 enemies or so to face. For dungeons It will probably be something you use to charge your passive (or get temp buffs if that idea is implemented) on the earlier floors as you use your full aoe spell of choice (bl2, dragontail sweep lol), but having that still helps a lot. Plus its a good option for those that dont have the full aoe event gear

[vital pebble]

they would have to make it equipable like how some other gear does

[lethal pasture]

Gotcha that makes a lot of sense, I was probably overthinking it, didn't think how great it would be for towers probably, but even in towers you'd need to charge your passive first? Or you think it'll have enough dmg non charged passive?

[vital pebble]

bp2 with no passive buff is pretty good already

[dusk sandal]

I would hope it would have decent damage without passive, just like the vesta spells have

[lethal pasture]

Imma need them to do that with all our summon abilities in gear ngl 🙏 but that's probably off topic lmaoo

[vital pebble]

i swing for 60k off rip with zero buffs

[vital pebble]

fair

[vital pebble]

and only 2 summons

[long glacier]

Summary

04.09.25

Patchy

• small number tweaks (pact multiplier, CR requirements)
• 2nd chance that saccs summons added
  https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1346138289064640542
• replicas again use full pact multiplier
  #1410277906935975976 message

Bugs?

• Summon Dead failing due to CR?
  #1410277906935975976 message
• GSH not the same stats as Here?
  #1410277906935975976 message

** What should GSH do?**

• GSH lacks in nearly every content
  #1410277906935975976 message
• AoE! AoE! AoE!
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message
• GSH Raids or Hordes suggestions from Orna and Aethric
  #💡│suggestions message
  #1060635763236163696 message
• some prefer GSHs raiding capabilities
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message

More Everything!
Defense

• additional defensive passive
  #1410277906935975976 message
• gear to complement CR rate
  #1410277906935975976 message
• Sacrificial Pact gives ward
  #1410277906935975976 message
  Offense
• HyPa massive dmg increase
  #1410277906935975976 message
• either HyPa AoE or AoE passive
  #1410277906935975976 message
• bring summon/pact stats on par with live version
  #1410277906935975976 message

Repeating suggestions

• higher CR chances
  #1410277906935975976 message
  HyPa
• HyPa saccing lowest HP summons
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message
• HyPa 1,2,3 saccing 1,2,3 summons
  #1410277906935975976 message
  Buffs
• saccing a summon gives its specific buff (e.g. DC from penguin)
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message
• summons dying by pact gives buffs
  #1410277906935975976 message

Notes
The discussion shifts the focus away from raiding towards horde content. While some prefer GSH as is or want it to raid different than e.g. Ultima the majority leans towards it gaining AoE capabilities and ways to (t.)buff itself passively.

@lyric fjord 👆

[lethal pasture]

( actually though it wouldn't work as I thought lmao, since you'd still need the gear on, they just need to take summon abilities off the gear, and turn them into spells 🙏 )

[vital pebble]

that would be great imo, a little ballance

[lyric fjord]

tldr

[bitter cedar]

TLDR the biggest improvement would be to make animations go brrrr to gain time in dungeon 🤪

Ahahah

[dusk sandal]

tldr: more everything

not sure it was included in the kaine summary, but something that was discussed as well was bringing the gsh summon stats and pact multiplier inline again with live, mainly because these lowered values in the beta make it a bit worse in pvp offense and bof

[long glacier]

Hint me

[dusk sandal]

#1410277906935975976 message

[vital pebble]

yea the stat reduction by 30% and pact reduction by 20% hurts

charons ritual is amazing though, its such a good passive

[long glacier]

Idk looks more like mentioning it rather than a discussion.
Reads like
'Man those lowered stats suck'
'Yea ikr'
and that's it.

I mean if we shift gears towards horde clearing different numbers gonna be all over the place anyway i can imagine.

[dusk sandal]

yeah true, but it was mentioned multiple times

isnt it kinda random that its nerfed?

gsh is like the last class in the game that should be nerfed lol

[long glacier]

Afaik the current beta GSHs state is that of the last rework attempt over a year ago. Those number might be not up to date atm yea.

[vital pebble]

right, saw something the other day about reducing its "potency" like deity cant hit just as hard with WAY less setup

[vital pebble]

mine may not have updated yet, i took those ss right before posting

(if something changed)

[long glacier]

No it's like this currently

[vital pebble]

then yea, that hurts

[devout garden]

Not really, it was adressed in the last patch notes

And they only upped the pact effectiveness by 10%

So it's still 20% lower than in live, amd the summon stats remain nerfed, too

40% and 80% in the beta vs 60% and 110% in live after that change from yesterday

It was previously at 30% and 80%*

[long glacier]

I can see why a lower pact multiplier is concerning but if we take the AoE mass sac route do lower summon stats matter that much?

[vital pebble]

for the aoe i thought we were talking about it being like bloodpact not sac

sac was for buffs

[long glacier]

There is no way we do an AoE pact based on summon HP.

[vital pebble]

if it sacs it would still be based on summon hp would it not?

or would you just do it with magic stat

[long glacier]

Current HyPas dmg is based on your mag stat, pact multipliers and the number of sacced summons

[devout garden]

Summon stats still matter for whoever wants to use BP on it, and also in pvp, if one of your summon dies or if you want to play in BoF, where you only have one

[devout garden]

.

[vital pebble]

i forget whats HyPas again?

[surreal zodiac]

hydrus pact

[dusk sandal]

https://playorna.com/codex/spells/hydrus-pact-ii

[vital pebble]

oh, beta skill

i forget its there lol, i only really think about live skills

[long glacier]

It's the whole thing beta GSH is about

To avoid quadratical scaling all over again.

[vital pebble]

i still use bp on beta

[dusk sandal]

also odie: ara's edge lmao

[vital pebble]

i havent tried that yet, so the damage would be the same with whether its 3 beithir or 3 pandas for example?

[long glacier]

Yes

Or 3 skellis

[vital pebble]

ah

so beithir, or other multi spawns are more useful than health in that instance

[long glacier]

Top tier would be Summon Dead, Summon Ghost and Scarecrow yes

[vital pebble]

does the auto summon proc multi or just the one?

[long glacier]

Sadly just the one.
Personally i prefer it being able to summon multiple if the spell does so.

[vital pebble]

then to just make beithir an equipable skill lol and id be golden

beithir would be top tier then, with self replicate and the auto summon

or the elf one from christmas

that would be 3 iirc

[long glacier]

Off hand to skillslot like 'Gods of Aaru' is floating around for a while yes.

[vital pebble]

that would be nice, and kinda interesting at the same time

[dusk sandal]

wasnt the lower pact / summon effectiveness a remnant of follower gsh?

if so, I dont see a reason why its still necessary

[devout garden]

Yeah, with a pet giving us temp and perm buffs or ward sustain it was understandable, but we don’t have any of that right now

[vital pebble]

i mean, give me the fallen sky boots and im golden lol

or yelmogus greaves

infinite ward

[bitter cedar]

Fun fact in PvP if you start the fight with the yel greaves you’ve got no ward up

I guess it’s the same for all content but not only PvP

[vital pebble]

yes

unless you have ward start

[bitter cedar]

Yeah I was making sure you knew that because it’s counter intuitive

[vital pebble]

on my gsa i run axe with ward start and a shit ton of regen lol

[bitter cedar]

Ahahah

[vital pebble]

after divine bastion im super tanky

so i can full focus on buffing

[bitter cedar]

Too bad we don’t get to cast a single spell before dying from an ss3 or magic chakram though

😆😆😆

[vital pebble]

in pvp i just use ortanite first, then bastion, to give me a slight chance

super off topic for this feed though lol

[subtle tusk]

hey guys ive skimmed through the thread and theres a thing that i havent heard anyone suggest, what do we think about summon stat% increasing hydrus' power in a different way than summons

than summon stats i mean

i have a couple ideas just floating through my head
-higher summon stats means higher chance for CR to proc (and possibly summon multiple even) /wouldnt help horde a lot without introduction of something else but sounds fun thematically and could help raiding
-chance to get random temp buffs based on your summon stats /would help a lot with aoe, current meta is BL2 for literally any aoe content and the reason gs cant get in on it is only because it doesnt have access to pets and or temp. buffs
-summon stat% literally just affecting mag and or pact effectiveness

admittedly, i feel like making gsh perform in horde has to either take the route of adding an aoe pact and buffing CR to make that aoe pact usable more than once a turn, or just making it do more damage through any means so it can use aoe offhands(which are the aoe meta rn) better

[dusk sandal]

not gonna lie, I think it would be kinda confusing if summon stat did something completely different for hydrus. A better approach imo might be to add +CR% passive to the summon stat gear to make it useful for hydrus as well, but yeah that might mean tweaking a lot of items

[dusk sandal]

yes I think so as well. What makes it kinda difficult is that BP / hypa are somewhat difficult to sustain. Ara vesta 2/3 is just an aoe spell you can spam, and CS to some degree as well if you got ward regen. But if there was an aoe pact, then it would not be sustainable because you kill your summons faster than they replenish with CR

and if its semi aoe then it's still not really competing with full aoe like bl2. Although I dont think a full aoe spammable pact would be balanced either

I do think a full aoe pact could be balanced if it requires e.g. 5 summons to fire, and then kills every one of them. That means yu cant spam it but it would still be a good option for harder dungeon floors etc. Something like stormflask + vestaga on heretic

[bitter cedar]

And so you kill all your summons for one single AOE and then what 😂 pray to have a proc to at least get one or two back? Or just get one shot next turn I guess.
I don’t know why you guys are doing that to yourselves… if we want to have an aoe that can compete with every single other class we just need something that doesn’t have such dramatic downside really. It’s ok to want to be able to clear a wave of mob without being killed right after that 🤣

[dusk sandal]

which is why I want 100% CR base

and gsh really needs much better stats than it has rn

its still lacking in hp and magic vs heretic

[bitter cedar]

Completely agree with you on both sides

Even GS as a whole is a joke stats wise really

You’ve seen in OL I keep on getting rekt with full Yel gear ornate and JoC on the new dungeons ang6 shackled. It’s a nightmare.

[dusk sandal]

heretic is already a pretty frail class. GSH having worse stats, no follower and omnimancy isnt helping in that regard. And its not like it does big damage either. Its still just glass without the cannon in the current beta

[dusk sandal]

oh yeah I havent done those dungeons as gs yet

[bitter cedar]

I just roll on them next next next with deity while watching tv. I die 3/4 time with GS being careful….

Imagine using GSh

[dusk sandal]

I have no idea why odie is so reluctant in giving gsh power honestly.. Pact only going from 30% to 40%, random summon stat nerf... We are talking about one of the worst classes in the game. In the beta it's still one of the worst classes in the game

[bitter cedar]

*because reasons 🥹

[void portal]

and it still is 40% pact boost rn (in beta)

[bitter cedar]

If nothing else we should have Higher stats and pact than live.. absolutely not less…

[void portal]

if should be more than 60% but

[dusk sandal]

yeah it was 30 before, but only bringing it to 40 isnt doing much

in the current live version its still 60%

[void portal]

yeah

someone mentioned it previously but how about ascended pacts

it might work better

[bitter cedar]

Otherwise create more gear with pact efficiency to multiply effects .. or anguish crucible stats 🥹

[void portal]

i don't think it's enough

[bitter cedar]

I’m being conservative 🤣 but honestly I feel we are missing anguish options too overall for Gs… anyway that’s another story.

[dusk sandal]

what I would like to see overall

1: bring gsh stats in line with heretic, not just magic but also HP.
2: give it 130% summon stats and 60% pact mult again like live (if this is somehow too much in combination with the higher mag we can always tweak)
3: higher base CR rate. Honestly what might be interesting as well is have CR proc chance scale inversely with the number of summons on the field. If you have 0 it would have a very high chance to proc, but less if you already have more on the field. Just so you don't often end up in situations where you have 0 summons on the field after sacrificing everything, which often results in death normally
4: CR gear that makes it possible to have 2 summons spawned per turn as well (not guaranteed, but gear should increase the chance)
5: temp buff passive that gives you temp buffs when you sacrifice summons. Ideally the version that gives you a buff based on what buff skills a summon has (e.g. saccing macaroni penguin could give DC). I don't know if it would be OP if it's 100% chance to get it. If we do make this RNG based, then maybe some gear could increase the chance of getting a buff from this so that you can build around it?
6: hypa 1,2,3 variants that sac 1,2,3 summons and deal damage accordingly (suggested several times).
7: aoe hypas:

• pseudo aoe hypa, that can chain to a second opponent like ara vesta and cs. ~~also exploding summon animation pls ~~
• full aoe hypa that deals damage to every opponent (lower base dmg than the pseudo aoe pact obviously)
• perhaps for these aoe pacts the number of opponents hit should determine how many summons are sacced. E.g. pseudo aoe pact only hits 1 opponent -> 1 sacced. full aoe pact hits 5 opponents -> 5 sacced (if you have that many on the field)

[void portal]

yeah we all want same

[bitter cedar]

“We should be careful and only have 2/3 target max or it’s overtuned.”
Meanwhile shackled al13 with a leg weapon…

🤪🤪🤪

Honestly I will push hard to have a full blown AOE and not an half arsed one

You can literally spam with absolutely no downside on other class as said before. And even worse, blasting or being hit gives me even more apex to blast even harder next turn rofl.

[surreal zodiac]

my deity is going nuts too at al 5

anw im wishing it to be a full blown aoe too ngl

[bitter cedar]

I mean you can do the same with Beowulf H and Heretic

[surreal zodiac]

but if that's too much to ask for ig ill settle for a semi aoe (as much as possible it'd be better if its gonna be full blown)

[bitter cedar]

Gilga has got collat 100% CS and RS infinite avidity

[surreal zodiac]

looking the way other classes clear dgns nowadays ig a full blown aoe pact isnt too much to ask for

[bitter cedar]

Exactly

[surreal zodiac]

cus if u think about it those are event items, the only thing u can get from non events are swansong, qat and gandring which are not that hard hitting on gsh

but it is for other classes, if it were to be a fullblown aoe pact then gsh is on par with other classes on its own power

it can stand on its own ground

[bitter cedar]

I am happy to farm with GsA for aoe but I’ve seen yesterday that I get obliterated even with full Yel stuff full stats…. Sooooo yeah no.

[surreal zodiac]

and it doesnt require any event items to amp it up so there goes your fomo out of the way

[surreal zodiac]

yeah it sucks, thats why i wanna push gsh for horde

ive tried it, shackled or not shackled its not that great it can do its job but i still die to 2-3 dgns avg per rotation(there's only 15 dgns in hoa)

im al 80 btw so yeah

[median harness]

I think you guys are overselling RS and Heretic a bit 😜 but regardless let's keep er focused

[bitter cedar]

Everybody has been saying how amazing heretic is and how so cool it is since the rework 🤡 .
Maybe for RS yeah because gandring and the new weapons do have downsides to them…

[surreal zodiac]

this guy is shackled too btw

[bitter cedar]

Ok I withdraw what I said

Nerf RS!

🥹🤣

[void portal]

lol

[median harness]

Oh trust me it is cool - but it also folds under the weight of its weaknesses pretty hard

Which is a good standard to aim for for classes IMO

I am definitely hoping GSH gets some good love! Making it the "branch" off from Omnimancy via having some decent power of its own sounds pretty awesome

[dusk sandal]

Well deity is overtuned soo

[median harness]

Deity does feel like PvE on easy mode to me 😅 which is quite fun so there is that hahaha

But now I am derailing

[subtle tusk]

Charon ritual being 100% rate minimum and like 50% for a second summon + semi-aoe pact with blade of finesse will make gsh horde kind of unique and not bad at all imo

Can anyone link me if odie said what his stance on fixing aoe is, do we have to bring something unique to the table or can we do with just bigger numbers as a fix

[vital pebble]

nothing yet

all this feed has been is suggestions

[lyric fjord]

The more we look at other classes here, the less identity we'll get

[dull gale]

Could make GSH better suited for 2H weapons and let it have some of that avidity that a lot of its shared gear has, it still wants to be a thief hybrid but gets none of the benefits of being part thief.
Also being 2H inclined works with some of it's intended gear, like Beithir Staff and Yelmogus Quarterstaff.

[hearty dove]

I find it highly unlikely that AoE is going to happen if we want to keep pvp and raiding as Hydrus' niche

[vital pebble]

id like to keep the raiding niche but thats my opinion

a lot of people want a class for everything though

they dont want to change based on need

[hearty dove]

Auriga does dungeons and towers, hydrus does raids and pvp, there you have everything /shrug

It's all summoner, no need to swap ascensions

[vital pebble]

honestly with the celestial classes we have everything

[vital pebble]

they dont even want to do that though

when people look at reworks they want that class to have everything, even exclusives to other classes

[dull gale]

Is it still off the table to give GSH it's pet back? I thought that was really fun.

[vital pebble]

they want to go more the nekromancer route

summoning/auto summoning and sacrificing to deal damage

[subtle tusk]

imo the pet version is really good because pets are just op(compared to no pet atleast), but it's a lazy way to buff gsh

[dull gale]

Hmm, how about instead of the 30% auto summon it has a 30% summon revival or something and the revived summon has 1/2 hp left

[vital pebble]

depends on how its used, if you use a summoning pet its basically the new passive

[vital pebble]

i saw someone suggest 100% auto and a chance at a 2nd summon

[dusk sandal]

not sure if I follow. Aoe pacts and the summon sacrifice loop would still be unique to gsh

[vital pebble]

i think he was talking about avidity, and other stuff

[dusk sandal]

oh

[subtle tusk]

Yes but why would anyone do that when you can get DC/DB spam and even magic^^^ with aaru

[vital pebble]

either you summon and pet buffs or you buff and pet summons

they both have similiar outcomes

i do like the idea of a 2h mage subclass though to compliment hydrus

[dull gale]

Auto summon clutters the field with garbage, imo. Reviving dead summons means you can only revive as many as you had summoned yourself. Plus they could still have the hp stat hydrus uses, they'd just have less hp when revived.
Couple this with Great Pegasus and Peggy could help revive some dead summons as well.

[vital pebble]

the new hydrus pact doesnt use hp

[dusk sandal]

gotta say, I used to be a proponent of the summoner pet version but now that I've played heretic more I've come more to the realization that it might just become a temu heretic lol, so I rather want gsh to do its own thing. But I still want a unique mechanic that allows us to get temp buffs since we can't get them from followers like other classes

[vital pebble]

just the # of summons sac'd

[subtle tusk]

it only clutters it with garbage if you have garbage equipped

[dull gale]

Ohhh then disregard that lol

[vital pebble]

i didnt know till yesterday so dont worry lol

[subtle tusk]

Unique mechanic ideally would be the soul system that will work kinda of like flasks/apex skills where you can consume a class unique resource for class unique spells

And that would be so peak

But it sounds out of scope idk

[dusk sandal]

yea Im not expecting such a large scale rework rn

[vital pebble]

thats part of the looking to other classes odie mentioned

[subtle tusk]

no it's not lol

if that's the case, manaflasks are apex

[dull gale]

I was under the impression it still used hp to BP, which there are high hp summons that are/were hydrus utility monsters like beithir/great pegasus

[subtle tusk]

which they arent

[bitter cedar]

The only reason we refer to other classes here is that people seem to think a full blown AOE is way too much for a rework when in fact they shoot themselves in the foot without even trying..in the meantime it's OK on all other classes somehow..

[vital pebble]

you are looking at apex/manaflask and want something similiar

[bitter cedar]

So no, not losing identity here, just making sure we don't lowball ourselves for nothing just because we are shy

[vital pebble]

if each class has a "unique resource" then its the same mechanic with a different name

[subtle tusk]

No it's not the same just how apex and flasks arent

Because you'd have to be consuming summons to get said resource

[vital pebble]

just like you have to do something specific to fill flasks and build apex

[subtle tusk]

In fact it's more unique than apex and flasks because they largely happen by default

[bitter cedar]

So far with the nekro style, reviving chance every turn etc.. we are in the good GSH rework identity ballpark. Let's keep that way

[subtle tusk]

Do damage, and use mana

[vital pebble]

its the same thing with a different name

[subtle tusk]

ok so flasks and apex are the same with with a different name

[vital pebble]

thats literally what i just said

[subtle tusk]

Ok so what's the issue lol

Odie added apex and the added flasks

So it's not like he's opposed to the idea

[vital pebble]

odie wants to not look to other classes

[dusk sandal]

yeah, I believe gsh is grossly underpowered in the beta currently, and I really dont want that it releases like that because then we just have the same situation where gsh is bad for another 2 years. Imo give it a strong power boost, if it's too strong then it can always be toned down a bit before it releases. So yeah I'm hoping for all of these changes lol: #1410277906935975976 message

[bitter cedar]

I agree with Pie really, otherwise it will be a "ok they got their rework that's it, let's move on' for the next 2/3 years

[vital pebble]

personally i like hydrus as the pact nuke it is

its unique already just need more variety in that area, ie more pacts/summons that feed pacts, etc

[subtle tusk]

agree

[dusk sandal]

here's the thing, if we demand a passive that is both good for dungeons and raids (like getting temp buffs from summon sacrifices), then its a win win for us

[subtle tusk]

kinda crazy how little spells summoners have

especially the celestials, they get literally a single spell each

banger

[vital pebble]

passives like that are unique

and i agree

thats the type of stuff we should recomend

[bitter cedar]

Also, absolutely NOTHING prevents Odie from binding spells, passives or gear to a single class really, it's the case for other classes already.

[vital pebble]

if there was a change to sacrificial pact to give buffs and heal you wouldnt need the passive though

[bitter cedar]

So let's clear our head about the fear others can use it

[subtle tusk]

yeah sac pact is so unusable

[vital pebble]

like me having to use deity to get the (imo) coolest summons in the game

[bitter cedar]

That's a fluke

[subtle tusk]

i mean im fine with the summons if atleast deity can use them but they look bad even on it

which is insane because its deity

[dusk sandal]

I know odie said we shouldn't look at other classes, but if we do look at other classes we can see several examples of passives that are good in a wide range of content: avidity, deity temps, crit poise, HM3 etc. So I think it's still possible for us to get a passive like that as well if we beg odie enough

[vital pebble]

ome hell of a fluke imo

[subtle tusk]

wtf

[dull gale]

I always thought GSH wanted bulky fat HP summons that didn't necessarily attack on their own but offered a role for combat, so that GSH could do it's pact work.
• Thats why when it temporarily had a pet I used Arisen Stonewarg to manage Ward turns while GSH took care of it's very long setup.
• Beithir was the ammo/disruption
• Ancient Dragon a neutered attacker
• Great Pegasus the doctor for healing/support/revival

[vital pebble]

dont use them as building blocks, use them as examples, dont build on another passive, make a unique one for hydrus

[dusk sandal]

yeah I agree

[lyric fjord]

My point is mostly around the “other classes have aoe so why can’t we” stuff - it’s missing my point about a hydrus pact aoe just being too good off hydrus

[vital pebble]

i mean a general pact nerf for other classes would keep that in check like summon stats

imo

[subtle tusk]

yeah unless you mean base gs when you say off hydrus i dont think its something a number tweak cant fix

[lyric fjord]

But as a general sentiment, the more we try to get classes to do stuff the same way as others, the less creativity we’re allowing ourselves to have.

Balance isn’t about making everything the same - it’s about ensuring there is comparable opportunity, strengths, weaknesses, and success rates

[dusk sandal]

hydrus will still be a better user of hypa-like aoe pacts than base gs, since it doesnt care about summon hp anyway. But yea, it might be the case that beoh or deity can get better results from the pacts by virtue of having higher stats / better passives

[lyric fjord]

My point above is that quadratic scaling, ascension, and anguish stats just negate that concern

[dusk sandal]

but I still dont think it beats existing options for those classes

[lyric fjord]

Will hydrus be better? Sure. Can other classes still wipe the floor with aoe pact while keeping their other benefits? Probably

[vital pebble]

in that case deity will still be higher bc of the magic stat and summon number being the base and not health

idk i disagree with other classes being able to do what a certain class does just as good

id say like 75% would be my cap on that

[dusk sandal]

I think the limiting factor would be how sustainable it is. If aoe pacts consume 2-5 summons, then there's no way deity could sustain without CR or being able to use summon dead itself

[subtle tusk]

yeah exactly i dont get how other classes can compete if they literally cant summon

[vital pebble]

they can still do it but not as efficient

[vital pebble]

if you have the new chest armor and high apex rate

[dull gale]

GSA doesn't really use AOE and it typically gets paired with a weapon like the Celestial Axe, doesn't it? It's AOE "is" the summon damage.
I think the Yelmogus staff fits nice on GSH but it ends up with like 1/3rd the protective ward of a GSA.

[vital pebble]

its every other turn or couple turns

[lyric fjord]

Auriga was my example fwiw

But it’s just a thought experiment

[vital pebble]

i like gsa for aoe anyway

[lyric fjord]

Nothing is off the table (except followers)

[vital pebble]

panda is fantastic for aoe option

[surreal zodiac]

it is for lower anguish

im an al 80 gsa and i get whooped on votg 1st floor

[dull gale]

Panda is easily a top tier summon introduced after an era of overly careful summons.

[surreal zodiac]

tried playing shackled and unshackled

[bitter cedar]

Well, I would ask you Odie about your feeling concerning the fact we get wiped on this months dungeon with Auriga even with full Yel gear which is meant to be quite nice... but maybe not the discussion here.. but yeah that's a concern if we speak about survivability of GSH too as it's got even less stats.

[vital pebble]

imo if you are running auriga as anything but tanky buffer its against the core mechanic of auriga

[bitter cedar]

then you're missing all the stats... and you do no damage

[dusk sandal]

what is realistically the best way other classes could other aoe hypa-like pacts? They cant do summon dead consistently. They would need onryo / eos and a whole bunch of act rate probably, then wait several turns to fill an entire field. So then they have to commit a follower slot to that. In addition, they dont have the gsh pact bonus. There is no quadratic scaling for hypa-like pacts so that should not be a problem. I don't see the problem with it really. And I mean, we could test this in the beta to see if it's really a problem

[surreal zodiac]

true

[subtle tusk]

nah odie said its a thought experiment, to make suggestions that are designed to be usable by gsh only

ofc other classes cant use pacts on their own, too much time summoning is not worth

i mean they can, just not worth at all

[dusk sandal]

and even the duo argument isn't there. For hypa-like pacts there is no benefit to summon stat anymore, so a GSA duo isnt going to help your damage

[surreal zodiac]

exactly

[vital pebble]

but a hydrus and a deity will be rediculous

[dusk sandal]

why

[subtle tusk]

imo if odie was to add a aoe pact that consumed your number of summons to deal damage to that much enemies it wouldnt be used on anything but hydrus with charon ritual

[vital pebble]

have hydrus focus on summons

and the deity on pacts

since health isnt an issue

then all you have to do is summon multi summons and the deity nukes with it

[dusk sandal]

in what content?

for the deity that will not be faster than just spamming BL2

its just a fun meme build

[subtle tusk]

ok but they can add the whole "this spell is made for summoners" thing like with calls for example and its instantly fixed

[bitter cedar]

As of now, to actually progress in the Beta, I suggest we go with what Pie and lots of people here were proposing... up the CR rate... put back stats like live or slightly higher to see how it behaves... And we go from there.
This way we progress in the testing, we check survivability, usability of Hypa/BP and see what we lack.

[vital pebble]

thats what we suggested but its frowned upon

[subtle tusk]

must have missed that

[bitter cedar]

let's work with iteration testing

[surreal zodiac]

indeed

[vital pebble]

if the pact power was reduced to 10% like summon stats it would be fine

[subtle tusk]

im 100% on board with guaranteed charon ritual and higher base stats as a starting point

[vital pebble]

agree, and maybe moving some summons to be like the armor skills

not offhands

so if i use beithir staff, it can auto summon

[subtle tusk]

that would be really great too

[vital pebble]

or the christmas staff with the elfs

since multi summons would be the way to go if hp isnt an issue

[subtle tusk]

idk if its impossible to code it so CR just summons your weapon

your weapon summon

without you having to equip it

[vital pebble]

if it adds offhands to the list no

[subtle tusk]

like it detects it as an equipped spell i think thats enough

[vital pebble]

if they did that i would see it as fixed then

[subtle tusk]

i also think if we are to keep the lower CR, another route could be like how follower skills work, it rolls per equipped summon

[vital pebble]

and keep it an offhand freeing a slot and not having "defend"

[bitter cedar]

that's an if in the code really so I'm sure it's not a technical limitation to chck that.

[subtle tusk]

so you could have loadout with lots of equipped summons and have turns where 3 proc at once for example, so you constantly have fuel

[vital pebble]

using more slots but getting more return

[dull gale]

I would actually be okay with Beithir staff having the +summon beithir skill, and having Blightblast or Ward of Dragon(like Ward of Light) as it's 2H skill.

[vital pebble]

that would be cool

[bitter cedar]

That!

[vital pebble]

even better to fit the theme ward of bone

[bitter cedar]

yep

something to defend yep

[subtle tusk]

yeah im all for that ngl

[vital pebble]

or a hybrid "ward of bone dragon"

that would be cool

[subtle tusk]

nah no need to add new shit just slap ward of bone on it thats perfect

but no need for that really

[bitter cedar]

That would also add a bit of defence capability on the character overall

a bit like the coiled shield

[subtle tusk]

lets not flood the chat too much, odie please 🙏

[dusk sandal]

why are yall discussing beithir staff now istead of gsh

[subtle tusk]

wallahi

[vital pebble]

because its a main piece of hydrus atm

[dull gale]

Beithir Staff IS GSH

[vital pebble]

for me 100%

[dusk sandal]

why tho

sequencer is faster for raiding

[vital pebble]

high health summons, no damage but good fodder

[subtle tusk]

i think its designed to be good for GSH, but in practice currently its not that good

but thats kind of the nature of non celestial weapons ngl

[vital pebble]

i mean i swing for 16m lol

[dusk sandal]

its more suited to blood pact, while the current beta gsh is going more in the direction of spamming low hp fodder for hp-independent pacts

[dull gale]

Everything about beithir just screams GSH. Its not a standard attacker, it's an "electric fence".

[vital pebble]

i mean it self replicates and summons 2

the ymir one anyway

its meant to be sacrificed

[dull gale]

Yeah, beither self-replicating also mimics the current idea of GSH

[surreal zodiac]

but yeah im just gonna say it here, i'll still push for the idea pie said earlier

[dusk sandal]

scarecrow is better for gsh in theory. Doesnt take as many turns to replicate and doesnt force you into a 2h

but I think in the current beta replicas still nuke your pact multiplier? Or was that fixed already

[vital pebble]

fixed

bc the health doesnt matter

it was the health part that nuked it

[dusk sandal]

it wasnt

its explicitly setting the pact multiplier to 1 which meeans your a rift summoner, eos arms etc dont work anymore when you pact someone else's summons (which includes replicas). Reason it was implemented was because of the beithir duo strat being too strong otherwise

[vital pebble]

i guess it wasnt implimented well bc i still see it hit for just as hard as hydrus if not harder

people still use the duo summon pact strat

but im for a full pact nerf for other classes

like how summon stats are nerfed

[dull gale]

So does this mean that more gear is gonna get slapped with Pact Damage instead of a small handful of things?

[vital pebble]

hopefully

just having my charon helm is a nice chunk of extra but its 1 piece

[dusk sandal]

seems the pact multiplier thing is fixed already tho?

[vital pebble]

yes

[dusk sandal]

in the beta

[vital pebble]

yes

not live

[dusk sandal]

Base gs raiding

Beta gsh raiding

this is why I want gsh to focus on aoe instead of raiding. It just seems so behind in raiding vs base gs

[vital pebble]

see i want those two to be flipped damage wise

i want base gs to be a balance between summons and pacts, gsa to be summons centered, and gsh pact centered

if the numbers got moved around it would be perfect

[dusk sandal]

its not as easy to fix as you think

[surreal zodiac]

truly, u can't really beat base gs on raiding and gsa is mid for for everything except endless but gsh can be a better in horde and pvp (towers probably too)

[dusk sandal]

ascended summons will make BP always better on base GS

[surreal zodiac]

which gsh doesnt have

[vital pebble]

change all the stuff to how summon stats work for other classes, and buff the passives and look at ascended summons on gsh

[lethal pasture]

I think It's best to give up GSH raiding

Focus on dungeon AOE and pvp ig, towers maybe

[surreal zodiac]

yeah

[vital pebble]

i want it to be endless/raids

let gsa be the horde clear

[surreal zodiac]

it can't

im on mel 10 and i get slapped from time to time and im al 80 gsa

gsa is mid for that

[lethal pasture]

Makes no sense for it to be endless lol, cause you can't use farming gear/and no ascended summons

Raids it's set up is just long, there's not much else to it, alongside no ascended summons

[long glacier]

Make it an Ability (passive).
Exploding Summons - Every time a summon dies by a pact or 2nd chance it deals split non elemental dmg to all opponents.
Scales with mag and mag buffs.

I got it guys, we may rest now

[vital pebble]

so you want it to setup in 2 turns?

[hearty dove]

Doesn't even have to be specifically death by pact or second chance

Make it easier to code and have it be whenever a summon dies

[lethal pasture]

Not exactly I was just stating the facts rn lol

[hearty dove]

it's functionally the same thing anyway

[vital pebble]

if ten turns is "to long" i dont understand

[long glacier]

I thought it'd be too good if someone steps on your summons and dies from it.

[vital pebble]

bc thats how long it takes me to set up generally

[hearty dove]

Maaaaybe, but that'd be mostly a pvp concern, right?

Same as auto counterattack

[vital pebble]

like thorn damage lol?

or counter

[hearty dove]

But gsh has no batallions, so you can't hit them on accident

[long glacier]

No like this #1410277906935975976 message

[long glacier]

True

[hearty dove]

Meaning the only way for them to die on the attacker's turn is if the second chance procs

which is already included in your "does explosive damage" clause

[vital pebble]

if the die to sacrificial pact would it count?

[hearty dove]

hence, I think they're functionally identical, but one is more verbose and the other is ever so slightly stronger in PvE

[vital pebble]

make it a pact then not a passive

[lethal pasture]

Ten turns to set up and it's worse than GS setting up in the same time? Well GS doesn't have a passive to charge lol

[hearty dove]

It being a passive was the whole point, so that other classes couldn't abuse it 😅

[long glacier]

One of Odies concerns yes

[vital pebble]

thats why i say nerf pacts for everyone else

like summon stats

[hearty dove]

Odie wasn't concerned with deities or heretics using it

[dusk sandal]

Funnily enough BP seems a lot better on beta gsh than hypa

[hearty dove]

but other Summoners (Original or Auriga)

[vital pebble]

then hypa needs a change

[dusk sandal]

the paltry damage of Hypa vs bp, and it leaving you exposed to enemy hits so easily

[hearty dove]

Yeah I'd noticed

[surreal zodiac]

btw panda is from an event, so what happens if u missed out on it? u have to settle with ancient jinn. Low hp deals way less dmg vs panda (immunities and resistance to other mobs) Qatvanga, swansong and gandring is not so good on gsh.

[hearty dove]

Hence my still standing suggestion of increasing HyPa damage by at least x4 but possibly x5

[vital pebble]

i think they shouldnt get rid of the quadratic if they are full sacrificing and not just eating some health

thats whats most likely making it so bad in comparison

[hearty dove]

Hydrus does not have quadratic on BP

[hearty dove]

therefore that is definitely not the case

[vital pebble]

thought it was just hypas, if thats the case then hypas needs a change majorly

[hearty dove]

Hydrus does not have ascended summons - that's what makes it not quadratic

Hypa doesn't care about summon health, that was a decision made so that it can't be quadratic'd by anyone - meaning that it won't be better on base GS than on GSH

It also means it is cool and good to use with fodder summons like summon dead, instead of having to summon 5-turn-long pegasii

[lethal pasture]

Gsa can't horde without summons, and by no means is it fast lmaooo

GSH COULD horde as an independent, and be much faster in that content, alongside towers, and still have a pvp aspect to it as well

As of rn I'll be hard to outscale GS in raiding without a long term scaling like ascended summons, and that sweet ultima passive lol

[dusk sandal]

butr just more damage on hypa is not enough, it will still result in the GSH dying most likely

[vital pebble]

but if bp cares about health it would still have that scaling

[dusk sandal]

thats just what sacrificing the entire field does to your survivability

[vital pebble]

ascended summons or not

[hearty dove]

Baby steps and one iteration at a time is my opinion. Increasing HyPa damage so that it is not underwhelming gives us a feel for how much damage hydrus should be outputting. And from there we can work on survivability

[dusk sandal]

whats your opinion btw john, should gsh go aoe focus or raids?

[void portal]

someone proposed idea that cr rate should increase when there are less summon and cr can summon horde too (low chance)

[vital pebble]

bp and hypa cant crit

[hearty dove]

I think thematically I'd prefer raiding focused gsh

But that's an opinion as valid as anyone else's

[vital pebble]

id prefer the bp nukes stay

[void portal]

most ppl agreed on horde based gsh

[dusk sandal]

I was the one who suggested that yeah lol, at least one of the people who did

[void portal]

yesterday

[hearty dove]

It's probably easier to make aoe focused hydrus, that being said

[void portal]

it's a good idea

[hearty dove]

because then you don't have to deal with the quadratic issues

[dusk sandal]

the hypa that sacs only 1 or 2 summons is also a good idea. That means you dont have to sac the entire field anymore to Hypa

[vital pebble]

atleast make it do the lower summons

so you have a shield if you have enough summons

it doing 3 random can take your meat shield away and make death way more likely

[void portal]

btw is second chance dependant on no. of summon on field

[vital pebble]

its a per summon proc i think

so yes

[void portal]

what is per summon probability

[vital pebble]

its kinda like summon defend

the chance is each summon to eat the damage for you

but this is die for you

[vital pebble]

havent tested the % fully yet

[void portal]

every summon?

[vital pebble]

individually yes, not like aoe eat the damage

[void portal]

i see

[vital pebble]

id assume its the same as second chance with mana

since its the same just different resource being used

[void portal]

with mana?

[vital pebble]

"drains mana to keep you alive"

[void portal]

oo

[vital pebble]

but this is "kills a summon to keep you alive"

[long glacier]

You can check it out in beta rn

It kills all summons

To keep you alive

They're all dead

[void portal]

then it's a bit problematic

[vital pebble]

yea, cant proc multiple times in a row like the mana version lol

[void portal]

what about our hp we will have full hp or 1?

[dusk sandal]

its like the same problem the old gsh had, second chance but left with no summons anymore for pacts

[vital pebble]

cant tell you how many mages get hit and hit and hit and stay with 1hp

[long glacier]

It can procc multiple times per battle

[void portal]

we will most likely die next turn

[vital pebble]

not if it takes all your summons

if it takes 1 summon each or 2 then yes

[dusk sandal]

if your ai only has summon dead then maybe

[void portal]

then we will have to spam horde summon

like summon ghost or summon dead

[void portal]

if other class isn't gsh then?

we will never hate time to use pacts

[dusk sandal]

I still believe in CR proc rate inversely proportional to number of summons on the field. Imo it should be 100% proc chance if there are no summons left, so you are never left as the only target, and then I guess linearly decreasing with increased number of summons on field

[vital pebble]

always be summoning bc the auto summon isnt 100%

[void portal]

all we can do is use horde summon just for them to die again to save us

[long glacier]

I second this

[void portal]

then when we can use pacts

[void portal]

yup it's necessary

[vital pebble]

we cant unless we get lucky lol

[void portal]

since all summon die

instead of one or 2

[vital pebble]

if you get hit 2 times in a row you lose

[void portal]

how? unless opponent doesn't waste a turn we are done

[vital pebble]

exactly

[void portal]

so gsh is weak against thief classline

[vital pebble]

anything that can attack consistantly will win

[vital pebble]

and summoners with decent summons

[void portal]

also we lose our hp even if our summon die

[void portal]

yup

[long glacier]

I want to point out that we have nothing on live.
On beta we have a second chance, that's more than before.

Also there're other spells to strike back too.
A 2nd chance is supposed to save you and land the last blow not to dictate the battle imo

[hearty dove]

Summoner's always countered Summoner in pvp. Likely always will.
And as long as the summoner's damage is based on the summons (pacts are based on summons) and not on some turn on bullshit like hybrid monster verse4 or spiked shield, we'll never win on defense.
However, the real win for keeping territories is taking time. Which, if you have a second chance that can trigger multiple times depending your summons, definitely takes time. The longer they take to retrieve their territories, the more they've travelled in the meantime, and the more territories they'll miss.

I can see a world where a hydrus with parapet and only summon dead on loadout would be an annoying bugger to kill off for good

Almost like a zombie itself

[void portal]

True but losing all summon can become very dangerous in any content (raid, horde or pvp)

[vital pebble]

then second chance on mages needs a nerf lol

[long glacier]

But you're not dead

[vital pebble]

bc they sit at 1hp for like 4 turns nuking

[void portal]

i might in next turn

[hearty dove]

It is indeed dangerous, but it is not more dangerous than the current live iteration of
checks notes
actually already being dead?

[dusk sandal]

well not really vs deity. They have second chance that can also proc twice, gets them into redline passive, and tey can use yel chest for +25% parapet chance, and they have insane dex, better stats. But yeah, might be better than any of the other gs classes for sure

[void portal]

I'll repeat it again
dead summon should have a zombie state where their stats are lowered by x% and they dissappear from the field when opponent turn ends or in next turn

[lethal pasture]

Would be cool to see a T10 summon undead spell ngl

[vital pebble]

(beithir)

[lethal pasture]

That's T8

[vital pebble]

ymir version

[final oar]

That's called gursa

Unfortunately

[final oar]

Cosmetic

[abstract beacon]

So random thought. Could we have a passive that lowers incoming damage we take if we don't have summons out there? It would obviously go away the minute we have a summon

[lethal pasture]

We don't need debuffs lmaoo

[void portal]

our hp is already low enough that we can die from basic attack lol

[abstract beacon]

Right. But we have survivability through summons.

[void portal]

other classes can do atleast 100k in the first turn (in pvp)

[dusk sandal]

I think they mean lower incoming damage?

[void portal]

this passive wouldn't be able to help because it's summoner class we are taking about

[final oar]

Gsh does 100k pretty easily

[void portal]

without al?

[abstract beacon]

Yes. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[candid fractal]

The hope for GSH (unlike GS/A) is that it can have some measure of survivability without summons. Given that he's sacrificing them, he can't rely on them for all of his defenses.

That via stat multiplier and ideally better base stats, it can take a few hits.

[final oar]

Speaking for low al

High al you drop bombs with gs bp

[void portal]

in first turn?

[dusk sandal]

keep in mind pact multiplier is nerfed in beta tho

[void portal]

also other classes might survive 100k (because of good hp,res,def and ward) but gsh is weak in all those stats

so we will get one shot anyway even if we get damage reduction

[final oar]

Yeah I'm aware

But I'm saying for live

[abstract beacon]

I fixed my verbage since it wasn't clear. Doesn't my idea make sense then? No summons, all incoming damage gets lowered by x%

[hearty dove]

Fuck it, Gilgursa treatment, 50k base hp

[void portal]

it's good but considering the summoner class it doesn't help much

[void portal]

give gsh 50k hp and we are happy

also can we get a sac pact that gives ward and ward regen?

or make it passive that with every damage pact we get one turn ward

[abstract beacon]

Maybe the solution is just more stats? I mean beo hydrus gets way more than beo aur

[void portal]

It's a random idea that popped up now.

[candid fractal]

I think the simplest change might just be more base stats. Need more beta data to confirm, though.

I'm trying to get some time to just sit down and run a bunch of BL2 dungeons as GSH; accepting that my summons take a few hits and die for me (and I get stats for it), and having HyPa in my back pocket for dangerous single targets like fallen realmshifter/amammon, etc.

[void portal]

base stats are necessary and aren't even worth discussing because everyone agrees

[dusk sandal]

well currently in the beta it doesnt really have anything to make bl2 better than on live, so its probably still awful

[hearty dove]

Realistically speaking, if we are to compare gsh to other classes in terms of survivability, it could definitely use more defensive stats. Now that it has lost batallions, it's all up to the second chance in terms of living (at least in pvp, and that's one of the two pillars we're trying to keep gsh relevant in)
Other classes have stats, a lot of them have second chance, and all of them have pets.
GSH has low stats, now has a second chance, but also lacks a pet.

Pet is off limits, so the obvious choice is to roid it up

doesn't have to be more mag, but feed the boy some health, maybe lose some mana to not make ward oppressive

[void portal]

...

[void portal]

...

this can help too

if there is any problem with my idea please tell

[dusk sandal]

I agree that it would help, but it feels kind of oddly specific for a passive

[void portal]

yeah it doesn't suit gsh

it would've been better if gsh was related to warrior instead of thief

[surreal zodiac]

gsa is alr a warrior

[void portal]

yeah

i wish that we had a good dodge chance or avidly but odie said that it goes against the identity of summoner 😔

[surreal zodiac]

yep totally against

[void portal]

ik it doesn't suit gsh

[dusk sandal]

increasing CR proc rate can also double as a defensive passive

[void portal]

yup

the cr rate being inversely proportional to summons present in field is perfect idea

and if we can get 2 or 3 summons(low probability if at least 1 summon is present in field) from cr then the survivability issue is almost done

[vital pebble]

the could reverse the eos heart negatives for mor health and survivability

give it plus health instead

for survivability atleast it would be something we could use

[devout garden]

That wouldn't really affect GSH, though

[dusk sandal]

yeah eos heart is more a summon build thing

[abstract beacon]

I'd also not want my survivability tied to a celestial weapon

[void portal]

we can only work for gsh

[vital pebble]

fair

if they keep the health part of the pacts though it could help

blood pact anyway

[void portal]

but the celestial axe is pretty tied to survivability for gsa

[vital pebble]

the ward and regen alone is tied to a lot of classes survivability

[void portal]

so saying that you don't want survivability from a celestial weapon is wrong

[vital pebble]

no, i agree it shouldnt be solely that

but it should be an option

[abstract beacon]

True. And I find that to be a flaw. Why do I have to use a 1h axe just to survive because it has the most ward.

[vital pebble]

massive ward and stack a bunch of regen

[void portal]

damn my English is getting better day by day

[vital pebble]

i read it correctly, but my brain is wired wierd

[abstract beacon]

Right. You're forced to use that because that's the best option

Give me better options imo

[vital pebble]

i agree

but that doesnt mean take the first one away

[dusk sandal]

guys can we keep the discussion focused on beta gsh instead of gsa / celestial axe

[vital pebble]

we were comparing the survivability of the 2

[void portal]

yes talking about adorns and celestial weapons isn't for gsh

only

[vital pebble]

i mean if they rework some eos stuff it could be useful to gsh

i just mentioned it as an option

[void portal]

there are already some pact adorns

or you can use adorns that give mag

[vital pebble]

and they could increase them/rework them bc i hardly see them used, mostly its the mag adorns

[void portal]

this discussion is for gsh rework not celestial adorns

so we can't discuss that

[vital pebble]

it can certainly be part of the rework

[dusk sandal]

the pact adorns are very much meta for gsh

its 20% pact damage per adorn, multiplicative

[void portal]

20% is good enough since current gsh passive gives only 40% pact boost so we can get around 140% pact boost with just using celestial adorn on celestial weapon

i didn't even include other gear bonus

[dusk sandal]

more, it's 1.2^5 so 2.5x pact bonus approximately

[void portal]

just a celestial weapon and gsh passive one

[abstract beacon]

I'd actually say celestial axe and adorns are a huge part of this convo. If it ends up being that celestial axe or a cestial weapon with proper adorns is the best option for a mh weapon then we didnt do a good enough job fleshing out gsh

[void portal]

i think it's good since we can use armor to boost it

[vital pebble]

be even more if we had the live stats on the beta

[vital pebble]

the helm with 40%

[void portal]

I wish we got armor and boots too that helped with gsh

[dusk sandal]

well you cant even use celestial axe on gsh to begin with

probably a celestial weapon with pact augments will still be the best

[void portal]

since yel gear is for gsa and gs and it's obvious

[vital pebble]

celestial weapons and adorns in general for survivability, the axe is just an example

[abstract beacon]

This

Celestial weapons being an option is great. They just can't be THE option

For survivability *

[vital pebble]

for sure

[dusk sandal]

I dont know anyone who uses survivability augments on celestial weapons for gsh. GSH is more a glass cannon class so might as well go full damage

[void portal]

yeah

i don't think anyone will sacrifice damage when class is already risky

[dusk sandal]

the summons are supposed to be your source of survivability (which is also why hypa is bad for our survivability atm)

[void portal]

little more ward wouldn't help much anyway

[vital pebble]

i think its more about the regen but yea

[void portal]

we got cr for that tho

[void portal]

gsh can't use warrior gear so ward will be low

[vital pebble]

if you hypa all the summons you will get hit

[void portal]

and ward regen works by ward % is its not good too

[vital pebble]

CR doesnt always proc

[dusk sandal]

#1410277906935975976 message definitely

[void portal]

doing hypa without all summon present in field doesn't make sense

[vital pebble]

if you hypa with 3 summons or less you will get hit

[void portal]

hypa sacrifice 3 summon so we can keep 2 summon with us

[vital pebble]

like the video earlier most people arent gonna wait till 5 every time

[surreal zodiac]

yeah

[void portal]

who will use hypa with 3 or less summon?

[void portal]

i can agree it wouldn't happen in pvp

[long glacier]

Changing Titan augments to fix a single subclass is unlikely.
I'm pretty sure those will remain untouched and if not they'll not be changed until GSH is reworked.

[void portal]

but on other areas ppl will wait

[vital pebble]

the raid video from earlier did it multiple times

[vital pebble]

it wont be the rework but it can be part of it

buffing stuff the class can use can help the class too not just straight buffing the class

[void portal]

can you tell me which video

[vital pebble]

what im replying to @void portal

[long glacier]

I really doubt it.
We didn't even nail the core mechanics and are already talking about complementary gear pieces to improve a part of a not yet reworked class.

[vital pebble]

the pact part will be there either way so it can

[void portal]

it seems like a mistake

nobody will like to sacrifice Pegasus

when it can revive

pie was using Pegasus so he can revive scarecrow

since scarecrow is very compatible with hydrus pact

[vital pebble]

hydrus is 3 random

[long glacier]

The order is just off.

• playtest the concept
• adjust the concept
• repeat until the concept is nailed down
• adjust gear if needed

I mean by all means go ahead, i think the energy going into this part of the convo is simply better used otherwise/later.

[vital pebble]

if its a "mistake" it surely makes gsh look bad

[void portal]

and we can't manually summon

[void portal]

i thought it was lowest hp sacrifice

why is hydrus 3 random!?

[long glacier]

It should be

Lowest

It is not yet

[void portal]

yeah

[void portal]

i hope it becomes in next beta patch

[vital pebble]

but even then, he hypa'd with only 3

[void portal]

??

[vital pebble]

they did it on purpose to make it look bad

[void portal]

a mistake can happen

he wanted to show damage

and he did

[long glacier]

Yes we have gathered many, many suggestions.
Waiting for a new beta iteration seems to be the right thing to do now.

[vital pebble]

viability, not just damage

[void portal]

he hypa'd with 4 actually since scarecrow was left

[vital pebble]

making your character die quickly isnt gonna make it look viable

[vital pebble]

then right after did it with 3 and got hit

[void portal]

it's not making

gsh is weak

[void portal]

you should ask him instead

[vital pebble]

well yea, when you take its walls away lol

[long glacier]

It is to show that GSH is indeed bad at raiding and we should focus on the AoE variant.
It's an argument for horde GSH instead of raid GSH.

[void portal]

he actually chose to wait for 5 summon so I'm technically right

[vital pebble]

if making constant mistakes is showing the viability of something then the test is wrong

[long glacier]

Pie what was your intention when showing those clips?

[void portal]

bruh ask why he played like that

don't decide on your own

[dusk sandal]

I mean I tried in several different ways, I cant make it work better than base gs for raiding with hypa

even if I didnt die, its still clearly slower than base gs by a decent amount

[void portal]

he wants to know why you used hypa with only 3 summons on the field

[dusk sandal]

feel free to send a better video of gsh hypa raiding if you found something that worked

[vital pebble]

if they open back up mirroring i will test it with my current gear, cant fully test with just the base stuff the beta free 250 character has

[surreal zodiac]

indeed

[vital pebble]

and i dont know where the nearest witch hut is so i cant get the event spells atm, gonna have to hunt a bit

[void portal]

now we wait

[dusk sandal]

Well here's the speed if I dont die. 2x as slow as base gs

[vital pebble]

damage could use some tweaking for sure but doesnt make it look nearly as bad as before

[void portal]

it's bad

It was so scary too

[dusk sandal]

its not only slower, but also less safe than base gs

[void portal]

i wonder how you didn't die while buffing

[vital pebble]

what i dont get is why they introduce stuff in the beta WAY under damage and have to tune up, i guess its the same as having to tune down but its not like the beta gives us anything lol

id understand if they delivered it to us in the live game under powered so they could buff it, but in beta just make it where you think it will be slightly op then tune it down or up depending on results

[bitter cedar]

lol that’s really bad honestly

It’s all RNG not to die

[final oar]

it's better to leave it undertuned on release

[bitter cedar]

You have to count on the fact you don’t get hit for a crazy amount of turns and against a “real raid that does real damage” you will be one shot

And I guess you are not low AL there either

[vital pebble]

thats what im saying, its not live its testing

[final oar]

yeah but it sets a bad precedent

[vital pebble]

to start tests where you think it will be slightly op or atleast decent?

[final oar]

decent, but underpowered is what's ideal

easier to tune up vs nerf

nerfing gives the bad connotation of "you dont deserve this power"

[vital pebble]

glass half full/glass half empty situation

[final oar]

ye

[abstract beacon]

@final oar is right though. With your glass suggestion. Wouldnt you rather have someone only fill it half way and then be sorry you need more? Same thing for power budget here

[long glacier]

Summary

05.09.25

Crystalizing suggestions

• CR chances tied to number summons on the field, less summons = higher rate
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message
• HyPa adjustments for boardcontrol, saccing low HP summons and different HyPa versions for different amount of sacced summons
  #1410277906935975976 message
• all stats on par with Heretic, general bulk up
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message

Honorable mentions

• AoE passive, dying summons explode to AoE dmg
  #1410277906935975976 message
• Off hand summons like e.g. 'Gods of Aaru' in spellslot
  #💡│suggestions message
• Pie's wishlist
  #1410277906935975976 message
• gear supporting the class, e.g. Titan Augments
  #1410277906935975976 message

Notes
The community spend a lot of time comparing GSH to other classes to determine what should be possible.
Follower GSH seems off the table.
During the discussion many things currently in the beta had to be explained, playtesting really helps the discussion.
Some repeating suggestions like a higher CR rate and playerstats aswell as a more refined HyPa seem important to the community.
Different (non abusable by other classes) AoE versions were explored.

@lyric fjord 👆

[lyric fjord]

Small patch going out now - it brings the stats inline with base heretic, increases both pact bonus and CR rate

[devout garden]

Thanks a lot

[long glacier]

I'm a tonky boy now

Left is live with 2 AL more, same gear.

[devout garden]

How are the pact effectiveness and summon stats looking like?

[long glacier]

From base to GSH

A random raid AL 100

Doing some more raids the increased stats really become noticeable with higher Hydrus stacks.

[devout garden]

2k hp, 500 mana, 350 mag and some def and res

Not exact numbers, but yeah, that’s really nice

Also really nice that the pact effectiveness is back to normal

[vital pebble]

when is the next mirror lol i want to test

[dusk sandal]

are you ok with the lower summon stats?

not sure how much of a change it will make in BoF

[devout garden]

Summons will be worse for hitting enemies in both BoF and PvP/AI, due to lower dex, plus we’ll lose some damage with BP

But we did get extra mag and better overall stats

So that might make up for it

Plus we don’t really need summon stats for HyPa

[long glacier]

Random dungeon, no AoE weapon so Bard it is

Around 2min

[devout garden]

That’s really nice

Love how HyPa is pretty useful to clear beefier enemies

Which won’t die from AoE alone

[long glacier]

Tbf BP could do this too

[dusk sandal]

its still really far behind my hcorv. Im not impressed by its current aoe capabilities tbh

of courseit cant match other classes if you still dont really have a way to get certain buffslike DC, zerk etc passively

[devout garden]

True

[dusk sandal]

but yeah kinda annoying that we dont have stuff like yel staff in beta atm

[devout garden]

But with skellies it might not hit for that much

Not sure, though

[bitter cedar]

That’s going in the right direction it’s much better than yesterday for sure

[long glacier]

It doesn't but with BP i'd run with 2 beefy starters.
However i like that stacking Hydrus with HyPa does something too.

Plus i ate 2 Mammon hits to the face, i doubt i'd do that the same way on live.

And even if it'd have KOed me i still would've had a 2nd chance

So overall pretty safe compared to live.

[long glacier]

As a comparison current live GSH with somewhat good gear

Also around 2min.
I hated how i had to set up the Hydrus passive.

[twin salmon]

This is looking quite OK (in comparison to other classes, the first floors take much longer, afterwards it's nice), but it will probably be very difficult for higher anguish levels...

[cobalt ore]

Man a weaker aoe pact that saccs 1 minion would make this super fluid. Youd be able to charge the passive safely in lower floors and keep the speed up

[dusk sandal]

Al78 hcorv for comparison

[dull gale]

The stats buff is feeling nicer, it no longer feels like it will explode if you breathe on it funny.

[bitter cedar]

Also anguish 10 vs 1

Deity pretty much the same except you do more and more damage thanks to apex skills charging up while clearing the screen with it and moving on

[formal socket]

I think the Hydrus is passive, diverting from summons that die. It's faster to get stats from how many monsters are summoned, which becomes the trigger. We can get 20% stats at the beginning of the battle via vairedessence and it increases with the increasing summons and supported by charon ritual it might be better.

Reflecting on other classes that can instantly get passing stats right away,
For example, beoH with 100% charge via dragonslayer.
Heretic with ara edge/mana burn/bloodlost flask.
And 3 other classes with slightly less risk. But of course, it might be too broken with summon dead and hype abuse if possible.

[vital pebble]

i think the charging needs to atleast be faster, but that could happen on gear later, i dont think it needs to be instant though

[dull gale]

Working not too bad in hordes with a Swansong

Those summon hp's are a huge eyeball shock tho lol

Seeing how I like just running status inflicters as the auto summons, the petrify is nice. Every now and then throw a blood pact out on a bigger monster.
It feels more like how hydrus should have felt, having to cast more attacks than struggling to get ready to do anything.

[long glacier]

Just to make sure everyone gets it. On live Here Corv with 20 AL less does horde clear better(faster) at 10Ang higher.

[dusk sandal]

Thats why imo a temp buff-like passive is necessary if we want to compete with other classes. Rn we are missing out on pet buffs and we don't really have anything to compensate for it

[long glacier]

Also i really want to encourage folks to playtest the beta version.
The higher player stats really shine and in combination with the statboost of the Hydrus passive and the 2nd chance we're solid defensive wise imo.

[twin salmon]

I agree that charging the passive by summoning insteaad of sacrifying would substantially speed up the buffing process. Though, I don't understand the class identity:

• Either GSH gets stronger by absorbing their souls (so sacrifying);
• Or GSH receives some energy from living summons (at casting, but the buff would have to be reduced when the summons die).
  The latter would be related to getting buffs from summons (as from pets for all other classes), like the proposed "inverse Rhada pact" which would be my preferred option - and it should help for AoE AND raids.

[dull gale]

I agree, the higher base stats is really nice, I don't feel like the nerf to stats is as necessary now that every other class has got their big punch skills that pretty much 1shot your opponent these days.

[twin salmon]

Another comparison regarding AoE clearing speed: With my BeoH, it takes around 1:10 min for Mel5 shackled and 1:40 min for Mel9 shackled. (for comparison, I think it helps more to compare the shackled clearing times). SoIt does not have to be the same clearing speed, but 2 min for Mel1 is quite off...

[dull gale]

Steal the buffs/debuffs from sacrificed summons?

"Target 1 summon and sacrifice it, absorbing all of its buffs and debuffs"

[long glacier]

The previous mentioned problem with an invert Rhada is that you'd have to wait for the summons to cast their buffs to invest another turn RevRhadaing them.
Due to their frail nature your support summons may die during the process, plus while maybe somewhat working in raids it'd be not feasible during a dungeon run.

[vital pebble]

just buff the pact that heals the summoner

[long glacier]

The one that saccs all your summons?

Or the one that's random?

[dull gale]

Less likely to work in normal dungeon runs, could work more in an endless setting, could work in raids. There's not any real broken buffs that I can think of that any summons do.

[dusk sandal]

reverse rhada is definitely anti synergetic with gsh. It means you have to wait until they cast it, and then if the buff runs out early then you have to do that again somewhere in the middle of a dungeon. GSH should not need to wait that long before sacrificing summons. It also means charging your passive may take even longer

[dull gale]

I'm probably thinking it's not that bad because im thinking about how awful charging GSH in live is right now, and everything seems better as a option

I still feel that it should have a little thief synergy considering it's val/thief anyway.

[dusk sandal]

2 ideas have been proposed already that dont have the inverse rhada pact issue:

• you get a buff that a summon has access to applied to you directly when you sacrifice that summon E.g. macaroni penguin sacrifice could give DC
• you can get a magic buff whenever you sacrifice a summon

[long glacier]

True however an option that causes a fluent and synergetic gameplay seems more desirable.

Like the pieces of the class just working together.

[dull gale]

I also want to have an opportunity to utilize stuff like this in the new GSH, or even the related armors. It's part-thief nature has always tempted me

[long glacier]

You have.
I use it regularly to doom Titans.

Btw is there any other cause where thief gear comes into play?
Accuracy gear maybe🤔

[vital pebble]

atleast accuracy since bp isnt 100% anymore

[long glacier]

Yea but i'd rather take a Nolan's Staff than Thief gear.

[vital pebble]

fair

[dull gale]

Oh yeah the sequencer setup

[dusk sandal]

if I look at hcorv and gsh which are both mage classes with thief gear. On hcorv I use riftrogue boots in endless, I use yel cowl for aoe dungeon builds, beastfelled boots for some raiding builds and yel thinblade with aaru headwrap for a meme aoe build. But other than yel cowl, I dont think I would use any of those items on gsh. GSH is not a good endless class. Beastfelled boots wouldnt do anything for gsh. Thinblade could be a meme build but I dont think gsh has the capacity to pull it off as well as hcorv

and with nolans staff existing there's also not really a reason to use riftrogue gear on BP offense anymore

beastfelled garb wouldnt do anything for gsh either

I'm still a fan of this first idea: #1410277906935975976 message

because it would mean stuff like beastfelled garb and aaru robe could actually work for gsh too

[long glacier]

It would. I just don't know how you'd pull off a trick like this devwise.
I mean yea you could manually add a variable for every summon like aacc a penguin you get DC, sac a Guardian you get GM etc. but how's that work with mentioned Beastfelled Garb or other gear that adds buffs to summons.
The spell 'checking' their spellslots?

Imo that's the thing holding this suggestion back.

[dull gale]

I forgot how oddly nice these are

[long glacier]

PvP all star💪

[dusk sandal]

well, the gear adds the GM and berserk buffs etc to the summon skill slot pool. So if it is implemented like I think it is, it just adds those buffs to the array of available spells a summon has. Then you could filter on this array by looking at which skills are classified as buffs (we know the game has something like this, look at TMM spamming these spells classified as buffs), then you pick one of these buffs at random or something when a summon is sacced

[dull gale]

I guess the spell checking a dead summon's move pool kinda seems confusing to me, im sure it could do it

*throws great meditation on a monster, it dies, that's the only buff it had in it's pool, you get great meditation applied

[long glacier]

Maybe, it's way more work than adding a simple t.buff tho.
With the utopia of an AoE HyPa (or an AoE passive that is triggered) that does dmg, stacks your Hydrus passive via saccing and adds buffs via saccing i'd settle for simple t.buffs honestly... also that'd bring back t.mag++.

[dusk sandal]

I agree it's more work, but if it's a simple T mag then it's imo very similar to deity ara passive

but sure I wouldnt mind the t mag either

its better than nothing either way

[dull gale]

How about it does what Deity Ara does with t.matt to some degree

Doesn't have to be for free but not inconvenient enough that it might as well not matter

Maybe cap off at t.matt 2, if t.matt 3 is too much

*the only other thing I could think of is something like collateral, or parting remark.

[long glacier]

That's the plan but instead of getting it 'for free' by just doing a turn like Ara, we'd have to work for it by saccing summons like the workhorses we are.

[dull gale]

Forces you to cycle out summons to get a buff, it's not the wooorst idea.

[long glacier]

All with the HyPa loop in mind.

[dull gale]

So any skill of yours that kills a summon?
How about:
The higher your hydrus buff is at, you get a higher t.matt buff?
50% is t.matt2, 100% is t.matt3?

It slows the buff down a little bit but it feels like a somewhat fair trade

[long glacier]

Well anytime a summon dies actually, from whatever source.
Why is it not a fair trade?

[dull gale]

Well I just am being cautious, I think initial t.matt1 til hydrus 50% gives t.matt2, then maxed at hydrus 100% gives t.matt3 avoids it having too much at thd start of a fight, but rewards quick sacrificing.

I'd suffer scary skeletons for that, especially if they are inflicting their debuffs on the enemy.

[long glacier]

Well the chances would be like
50% for the t.mag+
15% for the t.mag++
5% for the t.mag+++
per summon dying.

With the suggested t.buff from summons dying.

[dull gale]

I'd take that too, your suggestion is initially stronger

If you're cool with a stronger buff then I can't argue lol

[dusk sandal]

if a summon dies due to an enemy attack then you can get a T buff too with your idea right?

[long glacier]

Yes, i was looking for 'death by pact and 2nd chance' John added 'death by anything'. The latter being stronger obviously.

[dull gale]

I think it fits the theme of summons being fuel

If it turns out good enough I might even try playing one, but summoner AI is awful. I could see the defense AI trying to summon an Ancient Dragon when it's more designed for casting spells.
That AI issue would have to be looked at.

One of the biggest issues I have is knowing my summoner is eating 4 turns, when I'd rather it not.

Thats a problem I have with Auriga, as I lead with dragon and hydra, but fill with griffin and chimera.
But the AI wants a.dragon.
Hydrus is gonna be a spellcaster but the AI will go "i think I will summon your big summon today".

[long glacier]

Yea defense AI is whole different beast.

[dull gale]

Yeah you can improve the player aspect of it but I just know that will be another complaint eventually.

[nimble relic]

Welcome to my life

[twin salmon]

I think a big advantage is that you could implement it as a passive. If it is a pact, then gsa and others (beomonner/deomonner) could use it, too, which would is not really intended for gsh rework. (sorry, @nimble relic 😉).

[nimble relic]

https://tenor.com/view/drake-shrug-sad-disappointed-gif-3654380992546976451

[twin salmon]

However, I still think receiving all stats from sacrified summons (incl perma stats) could allow for very interesting combinations instead of just spamming cheap cannon fodder. T.mag buffs would help, too, but wouldnt that rather lead to a weaker Dara who also gets t.mag buffs and stat increases, but w/o loosing turns for summoning, and additional access to pets, apex and overall better stats?

[dusk sandal]

you mean the reverse rhada pact idea?

again, the problem with that is that in many cases you just can't wait for a summon to cast its buff. Atm there's only a few worthwhile buffs to get from summons: DC and T mag^3. Those both take 3 turns. With the way gsh is set up a beta it's rare that a summon lives for 3 whole turns, maybe during setup. And then if the buff runs out you can't replenish it that easily, you'd have to wait another 3 turns

[twin salmon]

Oh, there would be more interesting options. And it does not have to be a spell, but could be a passive when summons die (through sacrifice or kill)

[dusk sandal]

So just comparing the suggested solutions for getting buffs from summons:

1: Reverse Rhada Pact from summon sacrifice: receive buffs from summons that are sacrificed. Requires them to have the effect applied.
Pros:

• Would allow for more variety in summons. You could use penguin for DC, Tower guardian for T mag^3.
• Synergy with gear, you could use beastfelled garb
• Most likely easy to implement
  Cons:
• Would require you to wait multiple turns with sacrificing until the summons have the aforementioned buffs

2: T mag buffs from summon Deaths: receive T mag buffs when any summon dies for any reason.
Pros:

• Synergizes well with the Hydrus passive flow. Sac summons at the start of dungeons etc to build up your passive and get passive magic buffs as well. Easy to replenish buffs in the middle of dungeons by using e.g. hypa.
• Most likely easy to implement
• Doesnt require summon sacrifice, would work on any death
  Cons:
• No synergy with gear such as aaru robe
• No summon variety

3: Spell slot buffs from summon sacrifice: when you sac a summon, you receive one of the buffs from their available set of spell slots
Pros:

• Synergizes well with the Hydrus passive flow, quick to get buffs.
• The most variety in summons. Stonewarg to get WoO (classified as buff), phoenix warrior for DB2, penguin for DC etc
• Synergy with gear (beast garb) due to that gear adding spells to the summon spell slots
  Cons:
• Most difficult to implement, would require checking spell slots every time a summon is sacced
• May be difficult to balance.

4: Reverse rhada with fallback: if sacced summon has buff applied, receive it. If summon has no buff, x% chance to get a buff that differs per monster family of sacced summon (dragon, animal, etc.)
Pros:

• Fast to get buffs
• Some variety in summons
• Probably easier to implement than 3

Cons:

• Possibly confusing to understand for players (2 ways to get buff)
• Synergy with gear (aaru, beastfelled) is there but not reliable

[dull gale]

Yeah theyre basically building you but irl

[nimble relic]

Kinda makes me annoyed

[dull gale]

tfw no longer beomonner

[nimble relic]

🥹

[dull gale]

Oh yeah is t9 hydrus getting anything?

Ahh okay I see it, like a baby version

[nimble relic]

👀

[surreal zodiac]

3rd option is what I want to be implemented, odie himself said he doesn't have time for this but lowkey in the future i wanted the 2nd option to lean towards the 3rd option (if we ever went to the 2nd option route). At least in the 3rd option you can also get defensive such as woo & db2 whenever u sacrifice the summons. But I can see this being time consuming to implement, but honestly I can wait, I've waited long enough for the rework, I don't mind waiting now as long I know GSH is going into the right directions.

[void portal]

I'm interested in 3rd option too it's can make any summon useful

[woven blaze]

ad Reverse Rhada: Change it to: If temp buff present, give it to the caster. If none present, have a [x]% chance to give a temp buff, depending on the creature type, to the caster.

It is a rng buff then, but it does not depend on buffing the summon first

ah, basically the second idea, but not fixed on tmag+ but on more specific buffs

[dusk sandal]

Sounds like a mix of the first and third idea to me. But how would you determine which creature gives which buffs? Ideally that is not something that would need to be coded in specifically per summon. Have it depend on the creature family (dragon, animal etc.) or what do you have in mind?

[pure sail]

I was wondering if we could make a skill that would allow us collect all the debuffs and buffs from the summoned beasts ?

• Converging Pact

[long glacier]

This has been suggested multiple times, a good summary about how to possibly get buffs from your summons by Pie is here
#1410277906935975976 message

[woven blaze]

Family, yes. Event summons could have special buffs to make them more wanted and add some new combinations

[dusk sandal]

I added it to the pros & cons overview

[lethal pasture]

Buggane gives you t.atk^^^^

😈

[dusk sandal]

what is GSH going to do with t atk^3 lol

[long glacier]

Using his thief gear

[surreal zodiac]

thinblade

[pure sail]

What if we add a passive skill for Summon Storage?

Summon Storage (Passive):

When the number of summoned beasts reaches the limit of 5, any additional summons (from skills or auto-summon passives) will be stored automatically.

If the number of summoned beasts on the field drops below 5, stored summons will automatically be released to fill the gap.

Pros:

Can instantly summon 1–3 beasts.

Helps quickly trigger the soul % effect from the Hydrus Pact.

Cons:

Requires time to build up storage.

Suggested adjustments:

We could remove the “Quick Summon” passive, and instead increase the auto-summon rate to 75–100% while also boosting HP.

In the future, will there be equipment that increases summon success rate? (For example, if the rate is 115%, that means 100% success for the first summon beast, and 15% success for the second one.)

The pact skills seem well-balanced overall.

🫣

[long glacier]

I don't see a benefit over e.g. a 100%CR rate besides maybe being able to adjust the order of the new summons checking in.

I hope there'll be gear to adjust CR rate, hopefully giving the player a choice between more dmg, or more summons.

[long glacier]

Summary

07.09.25

Patchy

• all stats on par with Heretic
• increased CR chance and pact multiplier

T.Buffs

• necessity of a t.buff
  #1410277906935975976 message
• Pie's summary of suggested t.buff concepts
  #1410277906935975976 message

Notes
It seems that the community feels good about the increased stats. In combination with 2nd chance GSH feels competent enough to hold its own for the moments without summons on the field.
The discussion shifted towards if and why GSH needs a mechanic to generate t.buffs to compensate for the lack of a follower as a player focused class aswell as what the mechanics could be.

[thorny oracle]

•HPACT
Instead of sacrificing 3 summons, the sacrificing is % hp based weighing heavily on summon health. E.G current summons; VSS AD & Hydra at full hp, Hpact is used: AD dies, Hydra is at half and negligible health is taken from VSS.

•Passive vhanges
Proposed change: Maintain its current souls collection however 1 soul 5% Charon ritual 2-3 souls summon stats comparable to bene spec, 4 souls summon stats equivalent to bene+agura summon stats, and at 5 souls (max and the reset point for souls count) ascended summon stats + the above teirs.(this souls meter ONLY contributes to summons created by Charon ritual II)

•Additionally (instead of revisiting pets)
Rolling EB down to GSH and instead of adding any more magical attack or newer pacts, adjusting its base attack closer in line but 50-200 points off of its magic attack so it can decently hybrid or melee.

IF not EB
The ability for blood pacts a chance to drain more blood to crit or hit additional targets, and life pacts a chance to revive a dead summon?

But whats always made it feel off to me is how I can feel whats missing from it while using the class. Its a true passive.(something that makes it feel like its "doing the thing" ) it feels almost complete the above changes im proposing is taking the aforementioned pin into consideration.

[dull gale]

I hate when summons try to replicate on a full field, would much rather they didn't try to replicate on a full field, like an AI check that tells them no.

[median harness]

Just make it so if they replicate it just charges souls?

[pure sail]

yep

[pure sail]

I see it differently. Replication is highly effective for rapidly storing %soul and passively enabling Sum H’s second chance. Without any summons on the field, Sum H becomes completely inactive

My main concern is the Darkrift equipment introduced by the devs. Summoning Darkrift requires a full Apex from God or relies on the auto-summon passive from Sum H

[vital pebble]

doesnt work anymore

they patched the auto summon

[pure sail]

oh

[vital pebble]

now you can only summon them in endless

or dungeons in general

[pure sail]

Aside from the methods I mentioned, are there any other ways to summon it?

[vital pebble]

no

[pure sail]

=))

[median harness]

How does the 2nd chance work or not work if someone does enough AoE damage to kill all summons as well

Can you still 2nd chance?

[nimble relic]

I think you all die

On the aoe

[mystic matrix]

probably depends on the order the aoe spell is applied in

[lethal pasture]

A.mammon is still your worst nightmare smh, GS line will never escape it's despair 🥀💔

[long glacier]

You do