Grand Summoner Hydrus Rework

[devout garden]

And it’s only a 13% difference

[grave dagger]

Fair. Got the numbers backwards

[devout garden]

Plus the nekro has a lot more mag so it’s better in a way

Don’t have a standard nekro to compare, but yeah

[grave dagger]

But why not have a staff be a staff?

[devout garden]

Yeah, don’t know about that

But there’s the Purrly reskin

Which is a forest goat categorized as a staff

But yeah, ornaversary locked

[grave dagger]

Didn’t get a good one of that

[devout garden]

Perma

[nimble relic]

Dont touch my instruments

I like my preferred weapon bonus on beo

[spark marsh]

Do you think having it based on hp sacrificed would be a good balance?

[bitter cedar]

So I left the discussion early morning and now I come back and all I see is people talking about PvP when we said yesterday to focus on raid and we don’t care much about PvP right now 🤣🤪🤪

I don’t have my android phone with me as I am away from home but has anything changed in beta compared to yesterday for raiding, any stats or something I didn’t read?

[long glacier]

PvP was tackled with 2nd chance in mind since 2nd chance would support both, raiding and PvP.

No nothing changed afaik

Btw someone mentioned Scarecrow being a nice addition to HyPa.
It's not.
Replica summons nullify pact multipliers.

[austere crater]

Any chance for a TL:DR? Was planning to HoC to GS wanted to understand if GSH is getting overall nerf or buff

[hearty dove]

The goal is to buff it because it is currently a horrendous class 😅

[long glacier]

I would not make a HoC decision based on beta GSH and/or this discussion.

[hearty dove]

But that

[long glacier]

Also the pins contain a

Summary

[austere crater]

So if I'm planning to HoC this shouldn't dissuade me

Cool

[austere crater]

TIL threads have pins

[bitter cedar]

Honestly it can only get better ❤️‍🩹😛

[austere crater]

GS is cool at higher AL I didn't think it's bad

[bitter cedar]

I am also on the fence to come back but I need some evidence I can do the same as deity (or at least for the content I am doing)

:p

[grave dagger]

I’d really like to be able to do a sequencer build while using FGS but maybe it’d be better to look at giving GSH weapon bonuses then. It is supposed to be the attacking summoner class.

[devout garden]

You probably won't, it'll most likely still be bad in both towers and dungeons

Since these changes are supposed to be mostly for raids and pvp

But we'll see

[bitter cedar]

Sad

Although I can clearly see that it is much better at tower than before

I grinded my first ascended classes as summoner

[nimble relic]

Thats why purrlys staff exists

[grave dagger]

What about BP doing less dmg to summons as a GSH so that way they don’t die so soon. Or even giving BP a chance to crit on with GSH

[bitter cedar]

Dungeons are in a good place already. But raiding would be great yes

[bitter cedar]

Remember when ss3 could Crit? 🤣

[nimble relic]

No point switching fgs out of instruments

[grave dagger]

I get it. You like your build.

[nimble relic]

You are right. Dont touch my territory and we are cool

[grave dagger]

That’s why I brought up giving GSH weapon bonuses too so that it doesn’t mess with things if people like it the way it is if you recall

[nimble relic]

If it does not affect me. I dont mind

[surreal zodiac]

i am still pushing on the ideas you proposed, i think its pretty good

[void portal]

is there anything we all agree on?

[nimble relic]

Pet gsh when

[void portal]

diverse ideas are good but if we don't consider others ideas we wouldn't be able to move forward

[long glacier]

Consent seems to be on some sort of 2nd chance.

And GSH being able to generate additional buffs without a follower.

[surreal zodiac]

what estrellia proposed is fitting for the class

[void portal]

yes

[surreal zodiac]

.

[void portal]

Kaine Make a poll and keep the options (you previously mentioned) so we can see which second chance is more supported (I'm new in discord so i don't know how to make polls)

[surreal zodiac]

its either the nekro gsh, or the gsh with main summon that functions like a follower or something

[final oar]

crazy idea but what if summons scaled with player stats (player atk mag

[long glacier]

The main summon as follower is mentioned in the pins. It may be fitting but is also very dev time expensive and needs like a lot of adjustments for a sub class.

[final oar]

I always felt like summoner should be this risky glass cannon play style thing

[long glacier]

Not crazy, mentioned quite often before.

Not in this discussion tho

[surreal zodiac]

i dont mind, ive waited long enough for the rework i can certainly wait for it to be good

[final oar]

crazy as in fundamentally shifts how gs is played

[void portal]

we already have 2 glass cannon i will be interesting to have one tank summoner (my opinion)

[final oar]

gsa is a tank lol

you build it like a tank

gs is bp ultima, gsh is gsh

[void portal]

hmm true

[long glacier]

It's not about how long we're able to wait but how much time the devs want to spend on it.

[void portal]

so we need to make gsh into something that's not gsh to improve it?

[final oar]

Because gsa uses warrior gear I feel like gsh should be this crazy mage glass cannon thing

[final oar]

I mean ig

[surreal zodiac]

or nekro gsh then paired with the main summon the functions like a pet

[void portal]

gsh should be like thief then

[final oar]

make it a hybrid between disposable glass cannon summons and a player that does damage

[final oar]

I was moreso thinking mage with the pact stuff

[surreal zodiac]

it is thief

[final oar]

yeah thief just doesn't fit though

[void portal]

it doesn't act like one (at least i don't think it does)

[final oar]

Like maybe with a follower you get beastfelled garb

[surreal zodiac]

its like heretic corvus but worse

[void portal]

always worse lol

is there any category where it's good (lemme guess no)

[final oar]

Pvp, high defres opponent

But that's irrelevant

[void portal]

👀

[surreal zodiac]

gsh with thinblade

[void portal]

should gsh go full necromancer

[void portal]

aside from 100% stat from passive what is the role of summoner there

[final oar]

that's my vibe with summoner

disposable hard hitting minions

[surreal zodiac]

a little put of summon protect, and i didnt really bother summoning more summons

it already took me 2 years to set it up

[void portal]

or summoner should get a little more tanky and get buffs from summon (by sacrificing or with utility summon)

[dusk sandal]

hcorv is so much better than gsh its not even funny

[void portal]

so you realize it's not a good thief too

[final oar]

it's pretty fucked

[void portal]

i like both ideas

[surreal zodiac]

i didnt think it was good to begin with xd so no realization needed

i hate it

[final oar]

I'm really not sure why the class that's supposed to use magical pacts has thief gear

[void portal]

lol

[long glacier]

Why not nekromancer thet gets buffs by dying summons... so both?

[void portal]

interesting opinion

i belive that nekromancer gsh can atleast make this class a little more interesting

[long glacier]

The main decision last betas was to be made between Nekro GSH and Followe (of some sort) GSH

Odie stated that both will not happen.

[void portal]

so we will never get nekromancer gsh

are previous concept same?

[long glacier]

Why would we not get it.
Nekro is thematically fitting, follower is more practical.

[devout garden]

Who said it won't happen?

[void portal]

..

[devout garden]

Both

At the same time

[surreal zodiac]

we could just combine both

[long glacier]

Like i said a combination will not happen.

[surreal zodiac]

a nekromancer with a main summon that functions like a pet, itll be unique to the class not bounded by bestial class

[void portal]

so we want necromancer gsh that get buffs by sacrificing summons and it can have a main summon that isn't affected by our pacts

having both will be useless

[long glacier]

How are this two points related?

[nimble relic]

Eh what

I dont know if that is the route for necromancer gsh

[devout garden]

Someone revoke their poll permissions

[void portal]

many ppl are interested in reverse rahda pact but i can see that it will not be very good with nekromancer gsh because you need to keep your summon alive for buffs and the enhance summon with hydrus passive need you to keep sacrificing them

[void portal]

nooo

i just want to know ppl opinion

[nimble relic]

Wild idea. Hydrus gets a new personal summon "golem" you sacrefice summons to evolve your golem into differend paths and it does differend things >blood/flesh golem focuses on recovering hp to the summoner and scales its hp every time a summon dies = more bp dmg.

Bone golem= focuses on defences and dmg reflecting. Scales the dmg of reflect each time a summon dies etc

[void portal]

i love this idea

[blazing spear]

One more Necro-inspired idea: debuffing an enemy by sacrificing summons, like a reversed version of the GSH buff? If the enemy is weaker, that could buff GSH survivability (Att/Mag down) and/or damage (Def/Res down and/or pact vulnerability). Could also give GSH a niche for higher Anguish play if they could debuff enemies' enhanced stats. Side thought - could also give a second-chance effect by sacrificing the debuff stacks?

[void portal]

i don't know how useful it is but it's very interesting

[final oar]

summ*ner player, disregard opinion

ggwp

[void portal]

it make sense because gsh is part thief

but raids are usually immune to those status

[nimble relic]

Needs bit of tweaking

[blazing spear]

Could make a new, specific status effect, along the lines of the Vesta-buff Sigils

[void portal]

isn't it too much for devs

[hearty dove]

This is, in fact, too much for the devs.
Simple changes people, simple changes

[void portal]

random question but blood pact is element less right

[void portal]

nekromancer gsh is too much?

[hearty dove]

This is definitely too much

[void portal]

i mean previous one

[void portal]

i said it's interesting but may not be useful

[hearty dove]

getting buffs from sacrificing is not too much, but that's already been suggested

[void portal]

this

[void portal]

After sacrificing summon (by pact) a undead summon will appear that last for few turns (x% decrease stats)

[hearty dove]

That serves the same fundamental function as the current autosummon passive

No need to make a new passive to do the same thing

[void portal]

currently auto summon doesn't feel needed if we are going with nekromancer theme

the reason i want undead is to increase survivability (they can take hit instead of us)

[tacit urchin]

I know it's not exactly GSH related, but where the class mostly revolves around Pacts, I feel an increase to the "+% Pact Effectiveness" amity would possibly help with its raid strength using the new Hydrus pact/Blood Pact.
The current max of 5% is so little that it feels like one of the most pointless/completely negligible amity effects.

A straight up increase from 5% -> 25%? Or even 30%?
(Would need to actually test different numbers to see what would be considered a good % buff and not too strong)

[long glacier]

It would also help base GS

[void portal]

25% or 30% is a bit much

about 15 to 20 should be better

[tacit urchin]

It depends on how it works with other pact bonuses? Are they multiplicative like crit? Or additive like elements?

[void portal]

i see

[hearty dove]

I personally find it a little silly that the majority of classes can have 40% crit 30% elemental amities but 25% pact might be too much
Not that it isn't founded, since pacts can already reach very high numbers. The issue with doing blood pact on summoner is more of a setup time and survivability issue than it really is damage

[candid fractal]

yeah there's a whole undercurrent of amities being extremely lopsided. They never got looked at that much after introduction; on one hand you've got stuff like 1.4x crit damage 1.3x elemental damage and on the other you have like... +30% summon stats (additive), 1.05x pact, 1.15x full life, 1.whatever dualcasting.

night and day difference on what people can get out of amities. ||arguably 1.4x * 1.3x from a single gearslot is way too much but y'know||

[void portal]

the gsh passive give 30% pact boost we can't just let amity have almost same effect as passive

[long glacier]

Amities are not gonna solve GSH as they also benefit base GS.

[void portal]

yes

I'm just telling that it's weird to have amity giving almost same effect as a passive

[tacit urchin]

Yeah definitely wouldn't solve the issue, but I feel it would open up a few things at least

[tacit urchin]

All of BeoH's passives are available as Amities

[void portal]

since new main damage source is going to be hypa with doesn't scale with hp summon stats feel useless

[blazing spear]

On the Summoner Raiding aspect, the thing that turned me off of Blood Pact besides performance was the turn upkeep of healing and/or resummoning after getting all the summons out. A sufficiently damaging full-sacrifice spell that took 1 (maybe 2) summons might be something a GSH could keep up the casting rate with without losing excessively much damage-per-turn compared to Ultima/Spiked Shield, making GSH more Raid competitive; 3 summons lost seems a bit much. If the damage isn't affected by summon HP/quality, then faster-cast summons would also help the turn economy. EDIT: Realized after re-reading that I may be repeating stuff already said 😆 Leaving it up since I want to keep the point about turn economy with sacrifice Pact casting.

[void portal]

yes i feel that too

[hearty dove]

Not sure just how much faster you want summons to be than summon dead

who can give you up to 4 summons with a 1 turn cast time

[blazing spear]

If that gives same damage vs slower summons, then yeah, that definitely helps turn economy

[void portal]

no sane person lol

[hearty dove]

it does. hydrus pact is health agnostic

[long glacier]

Different staged versions of HyPa (1,2,3) was suggested yea

[void portal]

ig he mean that hypa should sacrifice 2 summon instead of 3

[devout sedge]

i was playing with a bit and i think that summon spells that summon multiple (like summon dead) should apply to summon ritual as well, or the amount of summon spells equipped raises the odds of something being autosummoned every turn

[hearty dove]

Maybe something like each slot having an individual chance to be cast?

[devout sedge]

yes something like that, thank you for wording it better

Also hypa those need a little boost to have a damage comparable to blood pact, both tests at 0% passive

If raiding is the objective

[long glacier]

Yea the rate of fresh new bodies to sacrifice summons feels off.
Different versions of HyPa to choose from and a higher CR rate or it summoning multiple units if the spell does so seem reasonable.

[fleet sentinel]

Resolve dark rift looks like it gives 3-9 summons

[tacit urchin]

let's give GSH the ability to have follower, then you can use Eos to upkeep the summons

[long glacier]

GSH with a follower was a potential and functional concept that has been in the beta in the past yes

[fleet sentinel]

Scarecrow summons its own as well too

[devout sedge]

i understand that other players summons shouldn't procc the passive, but your summon's summons should imo, scarecrow and beithir would be way more useful

[long glacier]

Also this
#1410277906935975976 message

[fleet sentinel]

Ya but there's no reason it should. I think is more of the point

Will have to see if new rift summon works

[tacit urchin]

Yeah I was just joking around, as from what I can remember the concept was scrapped (at least I think? I didn't really keep up with the convo during that beta due to being busy so not exactly sure if the concept is still on the table)

[fleet sentinel]

It's hard without a decent log. Searching discord posts to try and piece stuff back isnt the best

[long glacier]

Check the pins

And the pins of the pins

Someone summarized the whole discussion.

[fleet sentinel]

https://playorna.com/codex/spells/resolve-darkriftus/

https://aethric.com/codex/items/darkrift-robe/

This was the new hydrous robe I was talking about

Also I don't see the answer to siriths question in the pin. And the pins of the pins don't work / just show "unknown"

[long glacier]

All in all the community was split on too many things, GSH Follower? GSH Nekro? No change at all?

Rn i feel a consens on some things

• more leaning towards Nekro GSH thus class identity than Follower GSH
• 2nd chance of some sort
• a more fluent summon upkeep

[long glacier]

This does not work?
#1219672026160042118 message

[fleet sentinel]

Nope

[dusk sandal]

click on it anyway

[fleet sentinel]

The unknown doesn't load for me

I'll try on PC maybe it's just mobile

Once I click the new link it now works on the pinned post

[long glacier]

Yay

[fleet sentinel]

Bottom 2 still don't load

[long glacier]

You're 'Jumping to the message' when in the pin tab yes?

The bottom button?

[fleet sentinel]

Yup

Now it's back to all 3 not loading 😕

Hmm my screen capture doesn't show taps

[long glacier]

Tap 'Jump to Message' on the bottom of your screen.
Then tap the links again.

In the end it's just what already has been discussed in the past, interesting but not a necessity to take part in the current discussion.

[fleet sentinel]

Thing is it showed up for a bit and worked. Then went away. Jump to message works. But I didn't have to do it when the name popped up. It's just discord being discord

[long glacier]

Oh those where discussions from over a year ago.

Summary for this thread is here
#1410277906935975976 message

[long glacier]

Summary

29.08.25

Defensive Capabilities

• explored 2nd chance to serve raids and PvP/AI with different 2nd chance flavors
  #1410277906935975976 message

Buff up!

• chance to receive t.mag+/++/+++ per dying summon
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message

Board Control

• different HyPas with different numbers of summons sacrificed
  #1410277906935975976 message
• Charon Ritual summoning chance per slot/ summoning multiple summons if summon spell does that/ higher chance
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message

Others

• steal summon spells
  #1410277906935975976 message
  #1410277906935975976 message
• John compares HyPa to BP
  #1410277906935975976 message

Note
Following the convo it feels like most consensus lies in 2nd chance, different HyPas, higher CR rate and GSH being able to reliably receive fast t.buffs in some form.

@lyric fjord 👆

[hearty dove]

Guess I'll unpin the comparison since it's in the summary

[long glacier]

I just really want it to be seen, like really😅

[hearty dove]

Makes the pins look nicer too :p

[fleet sentinel]

Do smn benefit from ward dmg

[fair panther]

I would HoC purely for the exploding summons gameplay. Favorite type of class in say Diablo or any other RPGs as such

Explosions based on the type of summon as well. You could use amities to amplify certain elements to that extent

[devout garden]

Nope

Only the player

[fleet sentinel]

Wasn't sure if hydrous would want it for pvp.

[devout garden]

Yeah, for pacts it’s nice

Although for first turn damage 15% at max hp is better

Since the summon stats are useless as you start with 2 summons and there’s a cap where it stops being useful

But the ward damage is still pretty nice

I’ll try to get it for BoF

[bitter cedar]

Yeah you know what guys. I withdraw what I said earlier. I want GS PvP defence capabilities on par with Beowulf

My bad. Yep let’s do it

You’re right. Let’s up block chance for summon. I think that’s fine. We can’t be more ridiculous than Beowulf mammoth anyway.

[final oar]

that's moreso jord + amities vs mammoth

[cobalt ore]

Do tempering skills lower pet block? If not, they should

[median harness]

Along the same vein what about you equip a follower but it gives the abilities and BB1 affects to your summons or you and then isn't actually present in the fights

But also probably pretty coding intensive

[nimble relic]

Fact that mammoth is not even that good anymore. Its in par with gory/livingarmor

[long glacier]

If you wanted to do smth like this you could simply give GSH like negative follower stats.
However i think there'll be either a fully functional follower or no follower, no middle ground.

[bitter cedar]

I was with my area def build so only channelalus and ss3 🙃 but I just wanted to prove how completely stupid it was to nerf GS back then when we had more protect if its to do the same with Beowulf now and ppl don’t flinch. 😛

[nimble relic]

And that was nerfed. Its not op anymore.

With fully focused on protection its 59% with jord 2 and double amities.

And protection build has very hard counters via specific skills aswell.

[bitter cedar]

Yeah that was nerfed but that was yesterday night so it’s still very much annoying. I was revising my position to not delve into PvP realm to be efficient on the discussion but then I was like.. f* it… let’s do it too 🤪

[void portal]

then what percentage of summon protection you think is necessary in pvp?

[bitter cedar]

99.999%

In all honesty, right now it’s like 90% chance at least to be one shot. I laugh every time I test it in PvP. I can bet my months salary that I will one shot straight in the face any camp on my road with an ss3.

And won’t be redirected to a summon instead of a direct shot

When GS started I remember it was much better than that. Then somehow ppl complained and it was changed. I don’t know maybe we can get a little bit more chance that it actually works…

[dusk sandal]

gsa with yel/ymir chest and parapet amity would have 45% chance to survive the shot, but gsh cant use yel/ymir chest so yeah

[bitter cedar]

I was told it doesn’t stack somehow

[dusk sandal]

2 amities dont stack. Chest + amity does stack, tested it recently with oro

[void portal]

i belive 15% summon protect (per summon) is decent so with 5 summon 75% is good

[void portal]

actually no

gsh almost never keeps 5 summon in field so it should be more

[bitter cedar]

Is it the “10% chance not to be one shot” that doesn’t stack then?

[void portal]

explain

[bitter cedar]

The “you’ve got x chance that a damage doing 100% if your hp is cancelled” ability

[dusk sandal]

that is the parapet effect

it goes up to 20% for amity. yel/ymir chest is 25%. It stacks additively so 20+25=45% to survive 1 shot

[bitter cedar]

Ok I had been told it didn’t stack between chest and amity

Good to know it actually works

Thanks

[void portal]

we already have q second chance idea so i don't think it's needed

simple summon protect chance can do work

[long glacier]

They're talking about a combination of an amity and an armorpiece that are rn the best defensive option for the GSA.
While educating it does not really contribute to the GSH discussion.

[void portal]

i see

[bitter cedar]

But in all honesty, knowing that new fact, it makes me even more sad knowing that it basically doesn’t do much for GS survivability. So… to contribute to the discussion I would ask what would happen then if we’ve got second chance by sacrificing summons… same as Beowulf… but then pacts are dependant on summons so.. 🤷

[void portal]

hydrus passive can do the job

but it can't protect gsh in first turn

[devout sedge]

Hydrus could have an "unstable battalions" that has an higher protect chance the less summons he has on the field

Or something down that line where he gets more protection while setting up and in pvp it means that the first turn he is less likely to get killed

[bitter cedar]

A reverse battalion of sort 😆

[void portal]

Good idea

[devout garden]

Yeah, that’s interesting

[dusk sandal]

cool idea. Are you suggesting it as an alternative to second chance or a separate mechanic beside it? Because the protect chance would have to be quite high to be comparable to second chance in pvp

[void portal]

some pvp exclusive buff

cuz I'll be very strong with second chance

[devout garden]

I would take that as an alternative over SC

[void portal]

current second chance concept (hydrus passive one) is too good to be replaced

[void portal]

we can change current battalion

passive

[dusk sandal]

gsh doesnt have batallions in the beta

[void portal]

what!!

are you sure rework is for buffing gsh

cuz pact nerf and battalion removed

[devout garden]

But that's because they kept the stuff that it had when the pet iteration was being tested, that's why it also has the lowered pact effectiveness

[void portal]

that's some scary nerf

[devout garden]

Odie confirmed it

[void portal]

since pet idea is pretty much scraped we can have battalion back and pact effectiveness buffed

[void portal]

reverse battalion i mean

[dusk sandal]

the idea grampasso described sounds more useful than second chance in pve to me, since it would make the setup easier. But it would be worse in pvp as well since the chance of surviving a turn 1 oneshot would be lower unless the protect chance is more than 50%, but then it would be broken since it can proc every subsequent turn

[void portal]

if second chance charges with hydrus passive we can have infinite sc(in theory) so it's good too (for raids, and dgn )

[devout garden]

Yeah, in PVE what Grampasso said is much better, that's why I also prefer it over the SC

[dusk sandal]

ok but that might be broken no? I dont think odie would ship that

[void portal]

we can have both

[void portal]

it'll take 100% hydrus just to keep us at 1 hp it's not broken

with sc the sacrificial pact can be more useful too

rn sacrificial pact feels like a waste of summon (atleast i feel that) so sc can make sacrificial pact important

[dusk sandal]

well you could also use hypa instead of sac pact to charge hydrus passive, so sac pact is probably still useless

[void portal]

i meant that if you have 1 hp and you can't use pots the sacrificial pact will help in recovering hp

[void portal]

and hypa is going to be main source to charge hydrus passive

i can't deny that

but healing and charging passive is a win win

[devout sedge]

What I was thinking is: 1 summon has a protect chance = to SC , 2 summons like 35%, 3 summons 25% and so on

And make it work like current battalion where the attack gets redirected to the summons

The summons with hydrus are not strong enough to survive an hit anyway

[devout sedge]

This way AoE and pseudo AoE can still by pass it but if you have only 1 summon on yhe field you have the same chance to survive as someone with SC

[void portal]

but if our summon die in first turn or damage will almost dissappear

[void portal]

i love this idea tho

[devout sedge]

HyPa gets you down to 1 or 2 summons every other turn, especially if charon ritual doesn't activate (I still think the rate should be higher), so the concept I have in mind is that after using HyPa, the turn you have to cast new summons you are protected by that single fodder summon as if you had SC

(just explaining what was the thought process)

[void portal]

everything make sense

if the class go nekromancer direction

but for first turn we can let our summon die or our damage will get reduced way too much

[bitter cedar]

Maybe we could also wait for Odie to let us know whatever he thinks “is possible” to be tried and what is not right now.

I feel we have extensively given many options over the different subjects and topics… and we covered a lot of ground.
Maybe that would be good to have a “yep I am keen on reworking the summons with more capabilities or buffs” or “yep let’s change pacts etc…

That would be good to know what we need to focus on in the thread right now instead of going in every direction

[void portal]

considering pact damage was nerfed I'm scared our idea will not perform good if we don't plan everything

[void portal]

but you are right

[bitter cedar]

But at least a small “yep I’m willing to work on reworking this or that “ or “ f* that I didn’t plan to work that much on GSH for now”

And need to be postponed after October or something

You know, just a direction 😆

[void portal]

if gsh can become better i don't mind waiting

[bitter cedar]

I just feel if we continue discussing without direction we will end up having millions of very cool ideas and nothing implemented

[void portal]

I'm scared that second case might happen

[void portal]

i think same happened in past rework attempts

[bitter cedar]

FknKane and John are right saying we proposed fancy thematic ideas that fit GSH identity but maybe Odie is not able to provide that much rework given his workload and we have to settle with something much more precise like John said.. just give us stats x3 and pact x2 and call it a day for now 😆

[void portal]

if gsh can be close to other classes I'm fine with that too

[bitter cedar]

I just don’t want us to focus on PvP so much but more on making it better at raid for example because I feel that’s where it is lacking the most currently

But that’s my personal view

I know if GS was faster in a way at raiding and maybe tower I would hoc right away

[void portal]

i want to to be decent in everything

even if it can't be best if it becomes jack of all trades I'm happy

[bitter cedar]

Hang on, when I say faster I meant not to be a gamble as usual where you die 2/3 of the time from a fly fart. Because you can output 50M damage once every 10 raids but it means 9 times you get killed before even doing anything and it’s shit. I’d rather play Beowulf or deity if that’s the case and not bother

[void portal]

True

so we have to wait for odie response

[bitter cedar]

Also if I need to buff up for 5 min to kill one raid when with other classes I already chained 4 raids what’s the point. It can be “slightly slower” but can’t be “much much slower AND riskier”

Yep

[void portal]

let's see what odie thinks

we can't increase work load too much

[long glacier]

Summary

30.08.25

• reverse Battalions, less summons mean more protection chance
  #1410277906935975976 message
• the community is waiting for an assessment by Odie on their previous thoughts
  #1410277906935975976 message

[surreal zodiac]

and an aoe blood pact and we're good

[void portal]

with that gsh might become playable

donno about how good it will be

[bitter cedar]

Just waiting on Odie now 🙂

[void portal]

yeah

[surreal zodiac]

yeah maybe starting with small changes for now will allow us to make it better by time

i trust that the boss man will deliver

[woven blaze]

Having a couple of small changes would be good. Trying to deliver 100% in one shot is not possible, not in this setup.

Step by step, with the signal sent 'change is coming, no longer waiting'

[bitter cedar]

Well… just waiting for any signal now really 🤣

[hearty dove]

It's a long weekend up in canada as far as I'm aware, so I'm not expecting any studio response until tomorrow

(And it's not to say that I'm expecting them tomorrow. Just like, no earlier than tomorrow. Keep in mind that odie did mention he did not have a lot of time for this)

[bitter cedar]

Then that’s a good thing we packed all those good ideas and sum ups everywhere so he’s got less work to do 😇😜

[long glacier]

Ye can imagine that a smooth Riftfall event start is prio rn

[woven blaze]

Every month there are (newly modified) events.
With this argument a change would never come for it will not bring in new people and has no overall benefit to the whole player base. 🤷‍♀️
Tell me, what would be a perfect time slot?

[long glacier]

Why not, i argued with a smooth start thus when the event is up and running we're good. Therefore a good point would be mid to late event, after the start and before a new one is set up.

[void portal]

make sense

[lyric fjord]

yes, event launches don't take the whole month 🙂

[proven sigil]

They take two months instead! Bwuahahahah!

[subtle tusk]

guys DW I'm naturally unlucky so me just a week ago hocing from GS means this rework will be really good

here's to praying the sick ideas we had last thread get added

[mortal bobcat]

Man I hope so. I’ve been wanting GSH to be good for like two years lol. I keep throwing money at all these packs and sprites cuz I’m a sucker just hoping eventually this cool af fantasy works out

[void portal]

guys darkriftus is a apex skill or you can say deity exclusive so when hypa comes out deity can do better hypa than gsh (because of deity high magic stats)

and that's problematic since we want to make gsh good

[long glacier]

So deity uses its whole apex to summon the council, sacs them with HyPa, fill its apex again for 2 to 3 turns, resummons the council, sacs them with HyPa etc... while that's entirely possible it does not seem very effective so let them have it imo.

[void portal]

I'm just talking about damage ik that filling apex will take time

[void portal]

also not having summon accessible with summoner classline is kinda irritating

[nimble relic]

I think no one will use apex skill just for bullets for a skill that lacks scalings

[bitter cedar]

I for one won’t care about it. Especially because to be honest if you’re not high anguish, with deity, you face tank anything that comes anyway… so absolutely no point wasting a channelalus or anything else for that

[long glacier]

Even tho if the dmg is double that of GSH it does take like for times of turns to get there making it a net loss in dmg per turn thus worse.

Also it somewhat intertwines summoning as a mechanic with other classes which is a good thing and smth we asked for for literal years.

[void portal]

actually I'm just sad that summoner can't use darkriftus

sorry

[bitter cedar]

That discussion should be in this event’s thread probably and not here. Because I absolutely do NOT want to create an excuse this time to say it was not clear what we wanted during this GSH discussion.

[void portal]

my bad

[bitter cedar]

We can let this thread rest for a few days until Odie feels like the start of this event is good enough and we can go onto testing GSH stuff.

[bitter cedar]

You’re good bro, I just want it to be clean so we don’t derail.

[lyric fjord]

#patch-notes

[bitter cedar]

Thanks. Let’s test now!

[dusk sandal]

1.4x pact now instead of 1.3x I believe? Still worse than 1.6x on live but I guess I'll try it in a raid again

[devout garden]

Yeah, and the summon stats remain nerfed

80% instead of 110%

[bitter cedar]

Ok so, on the « defensive side » that’s what we asked in the discussions I believe with a kind of blend between Beowulf last chance and deity second chance

Let’s try this then we take care of the power issue

[devout garden]

The SC is nice, although tbh I preferred the reverse battalions

[dusk sandal]

Im still really confused by hypa damage

sometimes I do like 200k and sometimes 2M?

I still think the clear speed is really bad for 100 al

[long glacier]

Can confirm that SC can procc multiple times per battle if you recast summons

[long glacier]

Your Scarecrow

Summons a replica

Pactmultiplier go poof

[dusk sandal]

ah yeah

[long glacier]

Which imo should be adressed since they're literally perfect for HyPa

[cobalt ore]

Dude thats insanely cool

Autosummon + summoner summons looking fun as hell

[devout garden]

Looks like it’s the same as the other SC

Unless someone gets it to proc more than 2 times

[long glacier]

But better than Beo SC

[devout garden]

Yeah

[long glacier]

Misses are hard.
I think since missing with CS/SS doesn't drain ward HyPa missing should not kill your summons.

[lyric fjord]

will be fixed in beta in 20

[long glacier]

Works

Oh, Summon Dead failed.
I guess CR2 blocked its slot?

[stuck mortar]

this is great!

[long glacier]

John mentioned it before.
#1410277906935975976 message
HyPa saccing lowest HP summons would open up a combination of BP and HyPa gameplay.
1 or 2 heavy starter, HyPa low HP summons to stack the passive and switch to BP once the passive is full.

[woven blaze]

Thank you for continuing!

[long glacier]

Combine it with HyPa 1 only saccing 1 or 2 summons for more board control, gear supporting CR rate, maybe some number tweaks and we're good?

[dusk sandal]

you want to ship it already?

[bitter cedar]

Not even close please… let’s continue testing

[long glacier]

It was a question.

You answered.

So no.

[bitter cedar]

Ok so, I absolutely really like the auto summoning feature. That’s for sure.

I still get randomly killed because I am in paper for now despite the « second chance » but that’s to be expected with my current beta gear… it’s an old mirror unfortunately

I’ve got like 20k ward and 11l life

Nice… I cap 🤣

Sorry but I have seen that I took many times some hits but I don’t find trace in the logs that one of the summon « protected me » but still I can see I take 0 damage on my life… normal? Is there a log for it or not ?

[abstract beacon]

Hey gang. Been a gilg player for a while but slowly swapping over to summoner. Excited to see what ya guy's come up with

[bitter cedar]

It should be exactly there

[long glacier]

Well they should not protect you without Battalions except you have a summon protect piece.

[bitter cedar]

I meant for the second chance

I can only assume that’s how I get saved because I can see the damage coming to my face but I take 0 actual damage on ward or hp somehow

I assumed it was the Charon ritual 2?

[surreal zodiac]

question, wouldnt be charon's grimoire a nice pair for hypa too?

[devout sedge]

Offhand summon spells aren't taken into account by summoner passives

[abstract beacon]

I read through everything here and I know I'm brand new here so my thoughts and ideas don't hold alot of weight. It was said earlier and my first thought was to somehow use some of the lesser used summons in some kind of way. Whether we use a pact for buffs or debuffs in some way.

I hate seeing all of the options we have for summons but very few are used

[long glacier]

While this is true the idea behing GSH is to bring back the power to the player and (ab)use weak summons as fodder.

Low Lvl summons that peak or become relevant by consistently or reliably buffing does seem more like a base GS or GSA concept to me.

[dusk sandal]

realizied I didnt elaborate. Hypa is a pretty fun loop imo, but it still doesnt really compare in terms of speed vs BP / ultima on base GS so needs some number tweaking imo, you are essentially spending 2 turns to deal damage due to having to summon dead before every hypa. And also, gsh is still pretty miserable in every other piece of content, well maybe a bit better now in pvp due to the second chance, but still miserable in dungeons / towers. If gsh is supposed to be bad at towers / duneons because its specialized in pvp / raids, then I expect it to perform really well there. But ideally I would like some improvements for othr content as well such as the temp buffs you suggested earlier

[candid fractal]

yeah this is building to a very clear, good separation among the GS subclasses.

baseGS ||mostly is there for Ultima|| doesn't have specialization.
GSA is more about beefy, long-lasting, buffed-up summons. Summons do damage, player is support.
GSH is more about low-hp, quick-to-summon and quick-to-die summons that serve his purpose (increasing stats, second chance). Player does damage.

[hearty dove]

In my eyes, if:

1. HyPa eats smaller summons before bigger summons
2. Summons' Summons stop shafting pact damage
3. Hypa gets its numbers increased by a large smidge (x5 was my last comparison, but it could probably afford to go down to x4 due to the increasing QoL of summons)

then we might have a proper stew done cooking

[long glacier]

Sounds good.
Essentially the big thing we got is
-2nd chance
and small improvements

• +0.1 pact multiplier
• useful replica
• no CR requirements

From here on we either have

• HyPa saccs lowest HP summons
  and either
• a reliable massive HyPa dmg increase massively helping out in raids and PvP
  or
• a t.mag buff of some sort (e.g. chance per summons dying), more unreliable but useful for all content

I feel we'd have to give smth up for one of those massive power ups.

[bitter cedar]

No. Please.. it’s always give one take back 3

Just let GSH be on par with other classes than having to make nonsense maluses that will once again make it shit 🙁

Maybe when we sacrifice some pets we can get those temp buffs as said before and that’s it. It can work this way. I mean realistically deity has got buff ups all the time and people are ok with that.

I am doing 2M damage aoe in dungeon with deity. Like seriously it’s ok we can have some temp buffs without having to give up everything else aside.

[surreal zodiac]

truly, having it will not make it broken and op its just gonna be more functional

[bitter cedar]

In any case any other class can one tap every single raid being comfortably safe. I don’t even know what we are talking about being careful around numbers when you can output huge numbers with almost all of them

[devout garden]

Ngl, a SC proc means we have no summons to use BP2 with in PvP

So we might as well flee, unless the auto-summon procs, or something

Not sure if it can proc after a SC*

But we are also nerfed there with 20% less pact effectiveness and 30% less summon stats than in live

So we'll see how it performs

[long glacier]

The thing that holds back GSH in defense is not the perishing of summons. It's the fact that it has spellslots filled with summons and that it's trying to cast them.

And that it's a paper tissue

[dusk sandal]

would it be that broken if we make CR 100%

[long glacier]

I highly assume that's where gear comes into play.

[dusk sandal]

then its at least not a problem if your 2 summons are sacced in pvp, and would make the flow in raids a bit better as well. Rn if you sac all your summons, you are the only taget remaining so the raid hits you, while if CR is 100% then maybe the raid doesnt hit you

well maybe we could get a second summon from CR from gear. E.g. 20% CR gear would then make a second summon show up 20% of the time

[surreal zodiac]

for dgns or towers idk, i think having brand new pact skill like bp aoe that hits 2-3 targets would be nice no need for event items

[dusk sandal]

sure wouldnt hurt

unfortunately I dont have trev / yel staff to test gsh towers with in beta

in live it is the case that it's not realy worth it to go gsh for mage builds even due to its higher mag, because the protect chance is lower and summons cant deal damage anymore. We do have some kind of second chance on gsh now and higher magic so maybe its a bit better now

oh wait gsh doesnt have higher mag in the beta nvm lol

[surreal zodiac]

At al 80 my gsh with a 200 yel staff, 15% two handed boots sky shoes + 2 trev charms is doing around 100k per mob unbuffed. While my beoH friend at al30 pretty much does the same damage. Having troubles to one shot nidhoggs in high torment, even with oracle spec and it sucks when u get slapped out of nowhere lol. Thats why i only do towers now with my gsa on my rhada build, but with second chance now that's kinda nice.

[surreal zodiac]

that sucks lol

would've been nice if we did

[dusk sandal]

so you dont run any ward turns?

but yea thats about the same as what I remember when I tried gsh in towers

[surreal zodiac]

i have an amity with 40% crit 5 ward start

[dusk sandal]

heretic ara is a pretty glass class as well but still much less so than gsh. It still has omnimancy to immune some attacks, second chance, and it has much higher mag so reaching thresholds isnt that much of a problem. It can also just pull out a nuke with vestaga. Gsh only has a second chance, but its worse in every other aspect.

[dusk sandal]

damn I want that really badly lol

[surreal zodiac]

true, it doesnt live to its reputation as a glass canon, its just glass no canon

[surreal zodiac]

5 bucks and its yours

[dusk sandal]

I think gsh still needs another defensive passive tbh

second chance alone isnt enough to make it not a paper tissue

the reverse batallions idea from grampasso is interesting

[surreal zodiac]

yeah i kinda like it too ngl

[devout garden]

Also a pet that can upkeep your ward or give you a damage boost

Or both

[devout garden]

Same

[dusk sandal]

stone doggo protecting 8% of the time does more than you think as well

[surreal zodiac]

would it be fun if lets say u sacrifice a utility summon and it has a great meditation skill or eos blessing on its loadout and you'll activate those buffs for yourself once u sacrifice them

that way for dgns u can get some merit for sacrificing your summons not only to charge your passive but also to give yourself some buffs

[devout garden]

Just give us reverse Rhada Pact, reverse Battalions, get the summon stats and pact effectiveness back to normal and ship it

[surreal zodiac]

and then just pair it with a new bp skill that hits 2-3 mobs

that way the dungeon or tower aspect will not suck

[dusk sandal]

yeah would be nice

[dusk sandal]

at first I thought 'sounds kinda OP if you're guaranteed to get it'. But like, deity ara gets those free temp ups without having to break out of the full aoe spam, which actually makes a difference. Gsh would need to stop aoe'ing to sac summons, which means opening up itself to enemy attacks while also removing summons from the field that protect it.

[surreal zodiac]

yeah that sounds just

[dusk sandal]

and the same for hcorv. Hcorv can either cast temp buffs itself or let a pet cast it, then it keeps them for like the entire dungeon

[surreal zodiac]

itll be unique and fitting to the class that abuses its summon for its own good

[bitter cedar]

We go back to all the ideas we wrote down above in the pin

So yeah the ideas are there

[surreal zodiac]

its kinda similar to kaine's idea

[surreal zodiac]

but this

[dusk sandal]

a generic mag buff is less interesting than stealing buffs from summons for sure

ok so what happens if you use beastfelled garb with gsh then? Your summon would know zerk, so can you then steal zerk from your summons? That would be cool af lol

[surreal zodiac]

yeah

since no summons can give it to us

and classes with pets gets it for free, while i have to use a mushroom every time

[bitter cedar]

Mushroom pie

[surreal zodiac]

anw that's all i could think of to make gsh viable and functional in dgns and perhaps towers, cus our summons can't buff us and it takes a while. Tower guardian, patreon/phaeton whatever it is and cernunos would be a good sacrifice for the cause xd. This way we will have access from the buffs like the classes who gets their buffs from their pets, so that we don't have to rely on lugus rng or merlin's potion.

[dusk sandal]

and stonewarg could finally become useful

since I guess saccing him could give woo

or you use beastfelled boots ig

[surreal zodiac]

yep pretty much

[dusk sandal]

So overall I would like to see:

Reverse batallions so gsh is less frail

100% CR base, additional CR from gear would be applied to second CR summon. This would help when in pvp your summons are sacced, you would at least have one remaining. Also makes it so you are never the only remaining target in a raid, which currently really affects gshs survivability when spamming hypa

Saccing summons gives you one of their available buff skills. E.g. saccing penguin gives dc, tower guardian T mag 3, failed phoenix warrior db2 etc. Would also include buff skills from gear like zerk from beastfelled garb

[devout sedge]

Whipping out some ideas:

• sacrificial pact rework: excess healing gets converted into ward (sac pact 2 would be a last resort kinda thing)

• hydrus passive: add into the passive that when you sacrifice a summon you gain his buffs (80% for perm buff and 60% for temp buff?)

• hydrus pact 1, 2, 3: the number corresponding to the amount of summon sacrificed

Just some raw ideas of the top of my head

[light spindle]

semi aoe pact the class really need that

[abstract beacon]

I apologize if it's been asked before. Are we looking to make this class do damage thru summons? Or use summons in different ways thru pacts to let us do damage.

[sleek mauve]

Pacts and such. Summon damage would just make it another Auriga

[abstract beacon]

Sorry I should have been clearer. Thru summons I meant like blood pact etc. The other way is use pacts in a support way and then we use stuff like ultima chakrakm etc

[devout sedge]

I feel that if we could steal buffs from summons with pacts AND use pacts to dmg it would be more consistent with class identity

[candid fractal]

yeah, the latter. primarily player damage -- and the summons are a resource that can be used for offense (pacting) or defense (meatshields, second chance, and so on).

in addition to normal offense as a magic class, so that'd be things like ultima chakram despair brilliantlights2 etc.

[abstract beacon]

Again Im new here so my thoughts are taken at low value but I thought the same as well. @candid fractal

It could make gameplay very fun and interesting. It's not just summon blood pact repeat etc

[candid fractal]

While I will say that (during Arisen Waygates, where enemy HP is high enough) it is fun to do the whole {summon, blood pact, lifepact/resummon} stuff, maybe that's something that base GS preserves while GSH does something else.

It'll still have okay pact damage due to the passive multipliers, but hopefully more from Hydrus Pact instead of Blood Pact/scaling with summon HP. And it'll be able to do the heretic/dara things as well so that GS as a whole doesn't fall too far behind in content like towers and horde dungeons with quick aoe.

[sleek mauve]

I like the idea of using souls to power pacts or special skills. Would further play on Charon pacts. Seeing as current version is kinda moot after you reach the 10 soul stack

[abstract beacon]

I just don't know if it becomes too much like beowulf. Where base is the mix, auriga is pet only and hydrus is player one with pet supporting

[candid fractal]

It would be similar in that way, but also that doesn't sound like too bad of a thing. 🤷‍♂️ Bonus points for the "- auriga" and "- hydrus" having a similar connotation. If NF really wants to go wild with GS design then they can/should consider a third celestial class 🥰

[abstract beacon]

I also know Dev work isn't easy or quick. So while we could come up with some amazing ideas for the class. It has to be realistic somewhat. Would it be awsome if every summon had something unique happen when it got pacted. Sure but that's a ton of work

[void portal]

I'll mention it again that gsh need better base stats since it's more of mage than summoner

since gsh revolve around sacrificing summons we should have better stats

also hydrus passive need to be more than 100% (the passive progression rate can be nerfed if it seem too overpowered)

[surreal zodiac]

over all i think these ideas is what gsh needs, later down the line we could adjust it

[surreal zodiac]

and these too

[surreal zodiac]

i agree

[void portal]

i love this idea too especially ward one

it can boost survivability and make sacrificial pact 2 useful

[surreal zodiac]

and adding that passive on gsh too on gsh is not a bad idea that way base gs can't outshine gsh on that particular aspect

[void portal]

ye

and allow gsh to choose which summon it want to sacrifice for sacrificial pact or other one summon sacrifice

then gsh will have better pacts

[surreal zodiac]

dungeons and towers would be viable for gsh if this were to be implemented which i hope it does

[void portal]

since we can't outclass gs in damage we should try to get better utility

like making healing spell better (sacrificial pacts)

[long glacier]

I can see all of this happening yes.
An adjustment to SacPact especially 2 is reasonable since it offing your field is overkill in terms of HP/MP gained, so it's basically there to charge Hydrus, which HyPa does now too so it needs a new niche.
Dunno how feasible it is to implement overheal, maybe +20% ward per sacced summon is 'easier'?

I really don't see any form of Batallions happening in addition to 2nd chance. It's just 3 layers of RNG protection then in PvE, the summons still eat hits.

An overall statboost especially defensive wise is more likely.

A higher CR rate would be nice but i think next step would either be the drastic dmg increase or a form of t.buffing to get a feeling for the numbers.

[dusk sandal]

sure the summons eat hits, but if you kill them with hypa in raids then often you are the only remaining target, which of course also means your second chance doesnt work

its crazy how much I'm dying in raids in the beta with relatively low anguish (4) due to not having any summons to take the hits

[devout sedge]

But CR has a chance to summon something to protect right after you use sac pact, theoretically

[bitter cedar]

Yep same

Low HP, low ward and low stats on char and pact gear and weapons are inherently low in defence or resistance… boom

Feels like playing a t8 class raiding a t11 boss 🤣

[hushed sedge]

Summons dying from HyPa or a Sac pact should have 100% auto res next turn. Not having battalions can make some turns without summons pretty hard to handle.
What about a Sac pact that makes the sacrificed summon explode for aoe damage?

[dusk sandal]

yes but only 30% of the time atm]

[void portal]

we still got zombie concept left

[dusk sandal]

exactly

[void portal]

dead summon(by pact) can stay on field for one turn

it can work pretty well

with battalions

and hypa

[long glacier]

Personally i'm leaning more towards complementing gear that either rewards you with 100%CR or a massive dmg advantage, giving the player some build variety.

[void portal]

why not both (different sets for different requirements)

[long glacier]

Yea 2 pieces/sets , one giving CR, one massive dmg

[median harness]

This is looking fun to try out

[void portal]

we can make hybrid builds too

[median harness]

Love that more classes are becoming spicy

[void portal]

class right now(in beta) seem pretty cool too

just need some more adjustments

[bitter cedar]

I am ok with that but let’s remind ourselves we’ve got pact gear that maybe should be reworked instead of having always to farm again and again and again to make it viable

I like the idea of a gear rework

[void portal]

don't forget this it can be very good for survivability (it works well with battalion and hypa)

[bitter cedar]

Also maybe it’s a matter of changing some stats in the existing summoner gear to make it less shitty

[void portal]

ofc gsh need better stats

better hp, res, def and mag is necessary

[bitter cedar]

Go shout it on top of a mountain 🤣 we need to keep it rolling

[void portal]

I'm doing it lol

i already repeated it many times

[hushed sedge]

I would like to suggest a new spec too related to pact.
As we have the benefactor helping the heavely summon-dependent playstyle, we could get its opposite too to help or complement the pact playstyle: the beneficiary

[void portal]

i was wondering how will metromonus spell (chronomancer spec) work with current gsh

someone got any idea?

[long glacier]

A spec that does tremendeous dmg with pacts? We have that, Sequencer.

[long glacier]

That'd be a discussion of its own.

[long glacier]

Sooo after you sacced all your summons, summons are left... like CR 100% proccing giving you new summons.
That's the same thing just different.
We should stick to CR, as we already have it.

Just to make it clear, those beta reworks usually start with a concept like we have.
One after another things are added or taken back to check out how it feels.
If it feels good, numbers are tweaked.

Currently we have as mechanics (leaving out numbers like summon/player stats, pact multipliers etc. as explained above)

• HyPa saccing 3 random summons
• 2nd chance that sacs all summons
• 30% CR

What we currently want as mechanics is

• higher CR rate
• HyPa saccing weakest summons
• different HyPas saccing a different amount of summons
• more (HyPa) dmg (yes adding it since it does have influence on the mechanic)

For the dmg part we should settle for either only more HyPa dmg or a t.buff by saccing/dying summons.

Of the things we want we should chose a priority that we would like to be implemented next to play around with.

[devout sedge]

maybe it could be put it down as CR raising to 90% autosummon when you sacrifice 5 summons

[devout sedge]

I would add on the mechanics to have offhand summons spells used by CR

[bitter cedar]

So, blood pact is using summons health to scale as well as the pact multipliers on gear. Right now we are discussing about the new spell and the way it scales too.
In my opinion hypa should be the “lower damage but quick and useful” to grind your stats to 100% while still doing decent damage. And BP still be the niche for high damage.
But right now we are stuck on that side. So do you feel like it’s a problem of pact multiplier or more the way that our summons are very weak because of the GSH nature and we should maybe ask to have more stats on gear with pact gear too? Or revise the gsh position to have very weak summons.. or to change the BP formulae altogether to be less dependent on their life?

[hushed sedge]

And that's a problem tbh.
Having to use Sequencer to have a "tremendous" damage output just means that Sequencer is too broken. Whatever class that can use 2 staves can have it's damage doubled at least.
Looking at the other side: it feels like I'm "compelled" to use Sequencer to reach that damage and disregard other options (if they exists) just because Sequencer has negligible conditions/maluses vs its pros

[long glacier]

Off-Hand summons as spells like 'Gods of Aaru' is an old suggestion.
While neat it deserves an own discussion later on.

[long glacier]

Better Pact gear would also be usable by base GS thus would not close the cap between the two.

Changing the BP or the summon stat formula has also been suggested many many times, Odie tackling GSH first instead of them leads me to believe that they'll not be changed atm, but GSH will.

The whole BP using summon HP discussion is also very old (pins), to avoid being dependant on summon stats HyPa was introduced in the first place.

In my opinion HyPa needs more refinment and GSH needs a unique way of buffing itself thus a passive.
Basically #1410277906935975976 message

Heck i'd even sacrifice the Hydrus passive to get the t.mag+/++/+++ from dying summons passive.

[long glacier]

Then it's a Sequencer discussion not a GSH discussion.

[devout sedge]

Ah yeah, works like that too, but what i meant was beside from that, just CR checking the offhand spell

[void portal]

can hypa keep up with gs blood pact? if no then we need to make gsh good enough so it can

[bitter cedar]

I don’t know why I would use BP if Hypa does the same damage or almost the same without using the HP scaling. That would be redundant to have Bp then

Or I don’t see it through entirely maybe

[void portal]

but that will make gsh better

i don't think gsh can beat gs in blood pact

so that's the only way left

[lyric fjord]

Iirc they were already made in line with heretic in this beta. Is that currently not the case?

[dusk sandal]

No, seems the same as live (first ss beta, second live)

[long glacier]

Yea but the 'gear gives spell' tech is already there, 'CR checks off hand' would need to be invented.

Also this way off hand summons would work with PE🤓

[long glacier]

I'll make a summary later on but since you stopped by,
what of the 'we want' things is realistic, to ask blunt?
#1410277906935975976 message

[void portal]

gsh has very bad stats in comparison of heretic 👀

[dusk sandal]

T buff from summon saccing 🙏

[void portal]

i would like to add that we can choose which summoner we want to sacrifice (only for sacrificial pact 1)

[long glacier]

Saccing or dying?

[void portal]

saccing will be better

[bitter cedar]

Let’s ask to be on par with deity

[long glacier]

Saccing requires a turn, dying happens on the fly

[dusk sandal]

I guess dying is better then to make it more automatic?

[void portal]

it's not possible

[void portal]

dying might become overpowered

since we can use squishy summon first

to get lot of buffs

[bitter cedar]

If we dig in the “lore” side of things, saccing them would be to actually “use” them to your evil advantage so it makes sense to retrieve benefits from it

Yeah it requires more time to buff this way that making them die as said above with low hp… but maybe a bit too much

[dusk sandal]

You mean like deity? Except we still have much worse stats lol, so I doubt it would be OP right away, and if it is then we could always tweak

[bitter cedar]

It has to be tested

[void portal]

saccing suit gsh more

[void portal]

i mean if it's not overpowered suddenly I'm in support of your idea (i don't want gsh to get nerf again so I'm a bit scared)

if it becomes meta suddenly it might get nerf

[bitter cedar]

You mean like deity and beo are OP for like a year or so? We’ve got time then 😆

I feel we should aim to reach that level so every class is on the same level up instead of down

😉

(I am still deity main but I have to admit it too)

[void portal]

i actually want gsh in par with deity and beo

but i don't think it'll happen

so I'm trying to not give myself hope

[long glacier]

Middle ground would be 'death by pact' so HyPa, BP, SacPact, Achlys, Charon etc.

[bitter cedar]

I like your ideas

[void portal]

let us choose the summon we want to sacrifice for sacrificial pact 1!

[bitter cedar]

I am not technical enough in my approach but you always put stats or applications where I fail 🤣

[void portal]

the rng is scary

[void portal]

if it seems too good make it exclusive to gsh

[bitter cedar]

Make blood pack and hypa GS only spells

😇 we end the heretic/gs duo and kill off everything

Just joking guys… don’t take it seriously, it’s cool to be able to duo 🤣

[void portal]

gs only? 👀

[bitter cedar]

Ahahah

I wish we could have more incentive to do multiplayer. It’s cool to play with people from time to time… anyway that’s not the subject 🥹

[void portal]

gsh was meant for multi-player (probably) since the base fs of gsh is low in comparison of gs and gsa
its just my thought and i could be wrong

[nimble relic]

No.

[void portal]

it was a joke

[bitter cedar]

It was a joke

[nimble relic]

Ah

[bitter cedar]

Ahahahahah

[void portal]

lol

[bitter cedar]

Otherwise we should restrict all the spells to their own classes and call it a day… that would let Orna in a hard state

[nimble relic]

Just when i was toying with beoA onryo hypa. I see that comment

[void portal]

i don't think other class can do much without divine bastion

[bitter cedar]

We are trying to see what can be done to make and hypa and Bp both relevant

[nimble relic]

Make bloodpact scale more from pact %

Instead of heavily from summon hp

And hypa a bit better base dmg

[void portal]

it's a good idea

I'll nerf gs blood pact indirectly and

gsh can do better blood pact

[nimble relic]

Yup

I know. Im genious

[void portal]

lol

[long glacier]

As long as quadratical scaling exists, this just shifts the threshold

[void portal]

quadratical scaling?

[nimble relic]

I was thinking about taking hp scaling compeletly away or switching it into base hp scalings or something that summon stat does not affect

[nimble relic]

Magic, pact, summon stat

[void portal]

how it works

[nimble relic]

Ascensions

[bitter cedar]

Remove ascensions. I’ve been saying that for 2 years now. It’s the biggest issue of this game

[void portal]

i meant how damage is calculated

[bitter cedar]

🙂

[void portal]

summoner classline gets most benefits from ascension in long run

[bitter cedar]

I’m about to be roasted 🤣

[nimble relic]

Angusih would be reworked again and the content would not be endless anymore

Anguish*

[void portal]

wdym

[nimble relic]

Gear lvling ends at 12 and the fact that ascensions unlock the next anguish levels is a thing. Without ascensions. Our scalings would not be enough to tackle the anguish content so it would cap into 30

Unless anguished gear stats would be heavily buffed

[tepid wedge]

Rip orna (and definitely hoa) if asc is outright removed

[long glacier]

Like stated before.
Odie is willing to rework GSH, if he'd be willing to change the BP formula he'd do that instead i guess🤷‍♂️

[nimble relic]

Gibe gsh ascended pacts

[void portal]

gibe it!!!

[bitter cedar]

I am so tempted to go on about Als etc but it’s not the topic.
When you say ascended pact do you mean that you would get x% more efficient by AL?

Imagine AL100 or 200 😆😆😆

Also the stupidity of having an endless AL system does not help. If we were capped at 100 or 200 we could be planning the scaling. But here we can’t

Or maybe we just say : hey… it can scale up to 0.5% per AL until AL200 and then that’s it it doesn’t work anymore. Don’t know that’s the only way I see

Or actually AL100

[void portal]

i don't think what you just said is related to our topic
we can discuss it in another thread

[bitter cedar]

Well… pact % efficiency and ALs scaling

That’s what we were discussing about for the quadratic scaling with magic etc etc.. I am just saying if we go that way we have to make sure we cap it somewhere so it’s not an infinite bonus

[void portal]

other classes get infinite bonus too

[bitter cedar]

But that is probably not the solution. I was just trying to find a workaround but maybe if we can avoid that and have a flat number regardless it’s better

[void portal]

i believe that gsh progression with als (like gsa and gs) is necessary or it'll fall behind in high al

[nimble relic]

Trade offer!

Gsh gets al scalings on pact & eos replica gets personal guidelight

https://tenor.com/view/trade-offer-dungeons-and-fakultet-gif-24324825

[void portal]

what you get?

[nimble relic]

Eos replica gets guidelight

[void portal]

that eos pet?

nuh uh

I'll never let beo get guidelight

[nimble relic]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-yes-yes-happy-excellent-evil-plan-gif-18648187

[void portal]

https://tenor.com/view/gohine-hohino-no-hohineee-gohineee-gif-17792172174678204487

[long glacier]

Offtopic, please stay with GSH.

[void portal]

sry

[surreal zodiac]

this and a aoe bp that hits 2-3 enemies

[bitter cedar]

Why not all of them

Not sure why not

Mage dance is full… BL2 is all…

Sweep is all

[surreal zodiac]

i want to but eh it might seem op and ppl would come after us but fk it yeah bp aoe that hits all of em

u right

lets just go full aoe on this one why not

[bitter cedar]

We sacrifice survivability and they’ve got full res/def/life and still do 2M aoe per floor

Not sure why we wouldn’t do full AOE as GSh

I am not fussed about dungeons tbh as we can play GSA for that. For tower we can too.. maybe you guys are focused on tower now ?

[surreal zodiac]

if that were to be implemented itll be good especially in dgn, and probably in towers too

im pretty alright so far in what have been discussed so far, getting buffs from saccing summons and other stuff for hypa etc etc.

[bitter cedar]

I am all about having more tools in my bag of course 🙂

[surreal zodiac]

just waiting for a summary now and odie's response

[long glacier]

Cause Odie stated his opinion against AoE pacts multiple times.
I don't see any benefit in chasing it.

[bitter cedar]

Alright, so unless he is revising his position, let’s let this idea behind. Thanks for the reminder.

And we’ve got GSA for aoe

[surreal zodiac]

wouldve been nice honestly, if pulling a large amount of numbers is the issue on that one we can just scale it down. Although gsa is nice for aoe i get smacked by a mil hp mammon in dgns, and 30k per aoe? i wouldnt last long.

[bitter cedar]

— side note
You know what’s annoying me the most? I’ve done a comparison between my deity shackled in anguish 6 and my GS with kinda the same ALs… I am still much slower with GS in dungeon solely because of animation I guess… BL2 is so fast to go from one screen to another.
Not sure if something could be done for “GS overall” to be faster. Because disabling animations etc doesn’t change the time it takes it seems

[surreal zodiac]

sigil bomb is just straight nuke, an abusive summoner who uses blood to harm enemies should be able to harm more than 1 thematically speaking.

u wouldnt really need any event items for that one tbh

so there goes your fomo out of the way

ive also read this from ppl who play summoner and it seems to me a lot of people wants a bp aoe and how practical it'll be for the class.

and it kind makes me disappointed that sometimes we have to settle for less just cause we play summoner lol

[void portal]

True

[long glacier]

Those are spec and gearbound so not simply available, there's a certain investment to them.

[long glacier]

With Yel gear GSA is pretty potent even in Anguish.
Millions of HP get eaten by those pandas.

[void portal]

how about we get a spec that give more types of hypa and that zombie (from dead summon by sacrifice) for 1 turn

[void portal]

it's a random idea i wanted to share and it's a mix of previous ideas

[long glacier]

Yes i know and i'd absolutely love me an AoE pact.
However it'd be usable by base GS too plus horde content is somewhat GSAs thing and again per Odie every subclass should have some content to thrive in and other to be bad at.
Horde content is simply the thing that designwise GSH shall be bad at.

[long glacier]

Soooo GSH as a spec?

[void portal]

a spec for gsh instead

like we got benefact for summoner damage we can get one for pact damage

[long glacier]

I don't know if the way to fixing a class is inventing a spec for it.

[void portal]

i mean if gs want aoe I'll have to sacrifice something for it and I'll work well with gsh

[void portal]

for normal cases it isn't lol

since new spell for gsh give benefits to gs too spec can be a good way

[long glacier]

I see since most AoE is spec bound you'd add a spec with and AoE pact to get an AoE pact.

[void portal]

yes

and because we are sacrificing damage (from sequencer) for this spec we get zombie summon for 1 turn for good survivability

[dusk sandal]

not a fan of the spec idea tbh

Semi aoe pact doesnt have to be spec locked, as demonstrates by ara vesta spells and chained shield

Theres also the possibility of gear locked aoe like bl2 / despair

[surreal zodiac]

true

[dusk sandal]

Brilliant Pacts 2

[long glacier]

The only way i see GSH getting an AoE passive (it has to be a passive or a flask type spell or anyone and their mother can use it) is to either nuke their PvP or raiding potential.
Lose raid/pvp gain horde.

[void portal]

as long as we get aoe it's fine

[dusk sandal]

Pact equivalent of stormflask + vestaga would be hella cool but no way its happening

[devout garden]

Base GS can already raid, so…

Just saying

[woven blaze]

Or spawn 1-x turn temp summons (ghosts, wights, demonsouls, you name it) with extended battalion chance.
Anything with class != undead could spawn such ghost when sacrificed

[long glacier]

I know, only thing concerning me is that GSH would compete with GSA for horde clear then and we have no outstanding PvP subclass.

[void portal]

I'm repeating same thing for days

when i suggested spec i also said that 1 turn zombie can be useful for survivability

when a summon is sacrificed we can keep them in field for 1 turn

[void portal]

as undead or meat shield

doesn't really matter

[dusk sandal]

Gsa competing for horde clear? Cmon

From an endgame perspective it's lagging behind a lot

[long glacier]

I mean competing within the class. As of now GSA is the horde class as lackluster as it might be in terms of clearspeed and with a horde GSH, GSA might fall behind in its own 'thing'.

A dysbalance.

[dusk sandal]

Gsa niche is imo endless more than anything, and "safe" raiding

[void portal]

i don't think gsa will fall behind

it's still more safe

[dusk sandal]

Gsa can be a safer and slower dungeon clearer while gsh is the faster but riskier one

[long glacier]

And we just shove PvP down the drain?

[dusk sandal]

Define pvp

[long glacier]

GSH PvAI offense

[dusk sandal]

Its already good wym

[void portal]

pvp is just one shoting build

[dusk sandal]

Gsh is a better offense than heretic imo

[long glacier]

I mean that we have to give up a content for GSH horde

[bitter cedar]

Well, I had to take back my deity to do the new dungeon in anguish 6 with shackle because I got slammed twice with GSA full Yel gf gear 🤣 I can do half dungeons with gsa right now (as you’ve seen in OL channels)

[dusk sandal]

But it's a bit worse on the beta due to having 40% pact mult

[bitter cedar]

Soooo safer I don’t know ahahah

[dusk sandal]

Why was the pact mult lowered btw

Makes no sense to me

[bitter cedar]

It was allegedly from a previous build

[hushed sedge]

GSH could have a passive that boosts spell damage by expending summons's life a this point. Every spell turns in to a half-pact this way, but you can still use multi-target vesta spells for dungeon clear and something else for single target. Real Pact spell instead could have twice the efficiency/efficacy to make them stand out more

[dusk sandal]

Odie said he increased it, ad iirc it went from 30 to 40%

But that's still worse than 60% on live

[void portal]

i don't think gsa should sacrifice it's ward for summon stats

[long glacier]

I mean we can explore the concept of a GSH that's good in horde but bad in raiding.

How'd that look like?

[bitter cedar]

No 🙁

GSA is too slow at raiding

[dusk sandal]

Honestly, I'd consider current gsh to be bad at raiding already

In the beta

My honest opinion

[void portal]

not giving gsh aoe when it's closer to mage than summoner is weird

[long glacier]

Yes and aim is to be better (faster) than base GS.

If i understood correctly

[dusk sandal]

But why do we have to choose what content it's good in?

If I look at hcorv, it's good at literally everything except pvp ig

[devout garden]

Yeah, raiding, since base GS is already good at it

[void portal]

most of the classes are good at everything (if we change builds)

so why not gsh

[devout garden]

And the 30% summon stats penalty remains

[long glacier]

That's the condition
#1410277906935975976 message

[void portal]

it can be good at limited things but it need to be decent in all

[devout garden]

It’s pretty much this, if base GS can already raid using Ultima or quad scaling BP, I can see GSH being the horde/pvp one and not excelling at raiding

Since its already meh at raiding and good at pvp

And we are lacking a decent player damage horde option

Being GSA the horde summon damage and raiding summon damage one

[dusk sandal]

With 2 summons you prob still hit cap but yea

It means the second chance cleanup is worse

[void portal]

that's why I'm begging for zombie concept

[dusk sandal]

Definitely means it's worse in bof tho

[devout garden]

Yeah, that’s the problem

Or if you lose a summon in pvp/ai

[dusk sandal]

Just leave the live summon stats and pact mult intact

Gsh is nowhere near strong enough to warrant random nerfs lol

[void portal]

and aoe still isn't allowed 😔

atleast make it a good utility class

[long glacier]

Okay so let's say we gut GSHs raiding potential and keep it relevant in PvP and horde content.
How would that look abilitywise?

[void portal]

what you mean by ability wise?

[long glacier]

Paired Essence, Hydrus, Charon Ritual are all abilities, the passives if you will

[void portal]

more types of hypa like we discussed in start

Most utility pact works better on gsh so we don't even need many utility spell

with buff in base stats it should be decent

[long glacier]

Those are abilities. I want to know what abilities a Horde PvP GSH has in your opinion.

[void portal]

we don't need passive for aoe

we just need aoe hypa or bp

[dusk sandal]

Temp effects passive, semi aoe hypa / pact

[void portal]

also i was wondering but currently second chance doesn't leave us at 1 hp right?

also can we let atleast 1 summon left in field after second chance is activated

[long glacier]

Yea and what do we gut? What makes current GSH 'good' at raiding or is directed towards raiding?

[devout garden]

Imo the biggest issues it has is charging the passive while on the run and getting temp buffs, if we are talking dungeons

[void portal]

temp passive can boost damage

[void portal]

hypa can help with both

[long glacier]

With AoE HyPa Hydrus would charge itself on the fly

[devout garden]

What if HyPa could hit one target per summon sacrificed

[void portal]

no

[devout garden]

It would be a semi AoE like that of the other classes, and the more targets you want to hit, the riskier it gets since you end up with no protection

[void portal]

no

[devout garden]

It’s just an idea lol, chill

Just following what Kaine said of making it AoE

[void portal]

this idea scared me bruh

[devout garden]

Why

You just said no, didn’t even bother to argue why it’s bad

[void portal]

I'm sorry for that

how do you plan to choose no. of summon you want to sacrifice

[devout garden]

If there are 5 enemies and you have 5 summons, you hit those 5 and lose your own 5

[dusk sandal]

Hmm. Honestly idk. I think we still need something like CR even for horde. If you nerf pact mult then it's worse in pvp again

[devout garden]

If there are 3 enemies and you have idk, 5 summons, you would only lose 3 summons

[void portal]

and what happens in enemy turn

[devout garden]

One summon per target

[void portal]

What about damage

will it be affected by summon hp

[devout garden]

Kaine said AoE HyPa

So not affected by summon hp, like the current HyPa

[void portal]

it's not much different from classic aoe but it's more troublesome
nobody wants to lose all 5 summons that make their second chance useless

wouldn't it be better to lose 2 or 3 summon to do aoe pact

it can work fine against pvp (only against summoner)

[long glacier]

It shouldn't help in raids

[void portal]

i was wrong for raid thing my bad

[devout garden]

If you kill all enemies while using this, you’ll just travel to the next floor, where CR might proc

And it’ll also help charge the passive to then use a proper full AoE like trev or Yel

Not sure if this is supposed to be our main source of damage in horde

Or just a support ability to charge the passive while helping us clear floors

[void portal]

i think hypa already charge passive fast enough

[void portal]

what happens in next floor

we got no summons

if there is boss what we can do?

[devout garden]

Yeah, but HyPa only hits one target, and then you end up with no summons against a crew enemies, if you are in a horde situation

So it’s even worse

[void portal]

that's why I'm asking for aoe hypa or bp

[devout garden]

We are literally talking about an AoE Hypa

[devout garden]

And since it’s your turn, you can always use summon dead or whatever

[long glacier]

Yea PE would be important too but a CR proccing when going from floor to floor w/o summons negates PE (smth that should be worked on, CR summons should appear on top of PE summons).

Guidelight is a nobrainer.

Leaves summon stats, the Hydrus passive and thief gear and the just added 2nd chance.

[devout garden]

So SC is still useful

[void portal]

the idea you suggested doesn't have a defined no. of summon sacrifice so it's a bit problematic

[devout garden]

It’s based on the number of targets and summons you have

Already said 1 target per summon sacrificed

That’s defined

[void portal]

if we got 4 enemies and we got 2 summons what will happen

let's make it 3

even then without a summon to protect us we are done

[devout garden]

You can use your AoE weapon or summon more summons to then use the AoE Hypa

Or what do you suggest, sacrifice one summon and kill all enemies?

[void portal]

your idea can be a bit better if we could choose how many summons we want to sacrifice and increase damage but previously someone mentioned that I'll make spell more time taking and it's not happening

[void portal]

i want that we can sacrifice x amount of summons and we can damage all enemies (damage depends upon no. of enemies)

[devout garden]

That’s obviously not going to happen

There’s no full AoE tied to a class

That’s why this one would have to be very risky to be able to hit all enemies

And why I said that of sacrificing our own summons

1 per enemy

[void portal]

but damage will be low if many enemies are getting hit

so it's not very bad

[long glacier]

I think you're discussing an AoE concept for a theme of a class that's not explored in its foundation and not approved by a dev.

In short:
You're skipping necessary steps.

[devout garden]

So then we are at this step trying to get this approved?

A possible AoE HyPa?

Or where are we, Odie has to accept that of switching paths from raiding to horde first?

[long glacier]

No we're discussing what abilities a Horde GSH has and what not.

Then i'll add this undying need for an AoE to the summary and when Odie goes 'Yep, we ballin' then it's time to discuss the mechanic of an AoE pact.

[void portal]

raiding will be main focus

[void portal]

understood 🫡

[void portal]

we just need to make it decent against horde

[devout garden]

It’s already been discussed that we are switching from raiding/pvp to horde/pvp

Since base GS is already good at raiding

[devout garden]

Ok

[surreal zodiac]

once aoe part is implemented its only a matter of theory buildin to make it good in towers

can't really compete with base gs in terms of raiding

[devout garden]

Yeah, basically

[void portal]

i see

[void portal]

I'm surprised odie agreed

[long glacier]

Well the main argument is that GSH surpassing base GS under current conditions is nigh impossible thus it should focus on other content. This and the communities 2 years of ongoing desire for an AoE pact, leaves us with horde content.

[void portal]

ok

i understand

[long glacier]

and that's only the documented suggestion i found.

I mean it could be the single most requested thing for GSH since its introduction to the game and imo such persistence should be rewarded in some way.

[void portal]

yeah

[bitter cedar]

Soooo basically what we are saying is that.. just use Ultima to raid?

[long glacier]

And high AL BP yes

[bitter cedar]

ok, well 🙂

That solves my conundrum trying to come back to GS to have a change of gameplay then

[long glacier]

That's where we have to decide what to push. If you say you want GSH to be a good raider instead of a horde class that's perfectly fine

[bitter cedar]

I will leave the GS main decide, I'll be honest. I was waiting for GSH to make it better and faster for raiding and I was ok doing dungeon with GSA. But ultimately if others want that AoE splash thing, that's fine

[long glacier]

I can imagine there're others thinking like you.
I'll note it.

[void portal]

Hi Odie

[lyric fjord]

i'm a bit in the summoner-is-already-aoe-by-design camp. you have up to 6 targets per player turn, which is effectively aoe.

we can make the argument that GSH has too low summon damage to meet some aoe-threshold, and thus warrant needing aoe - but it would need to be done in a way that is only utilizable by GSH. Auriga having pact AoE, for instance, would likely be overtuned to all heck

summoner is outside the norm and stuff can get out of hand quickly, as we've seen

[devout garden]

You mean base, or why did you say Auriga?

Since base also has ascended summons but Auriga has the penalty

[lyric fjord]

the penalty would just be bruteforced with amity/ascension. so you'd end up with the beefiest summons + aoe

[void portal]

gsh isn't aoe like gsa because we sacrifice summon a lot and summon aren't even the main source of damage in new gsh (hypa based gameplay)

[lyric fjord]

yeah, that's the argument i just referred to

[surreal zodiac]

we can implement some form of passive so that only gsh would only benefit from it and to avoid gsa brute forcing the aoe

[devout garden]

But like wouldn’t base still be better than Auriga?

[surreal zodiac]

me personally would want to gsh to only benefit from it

[devout garden]

Just trying to understand why you only mentioned Auriga and not base*

[lyric fjord]

depends on the aoe implementation, i suppose. if summon HP based, then summon stats matter more

[surreal zodiac]

but since its going to be a pact, base gs would probably benefit more compared to gsa yes? cus gsa itself has pact malus

[void portal]

so we need to make it gsh exclusive

the problem is how

[surreal zodiac]

yes cus then gsh would get outshined by base gs

[devout garden]

Yeah, base has more mag, only 20% summon stats less and it doesn’t have the 30% pact effectiveness malus

[lyric fjord]

we don't even have a exact aoe calc, so none of us will be able to answer.

i say auriga because my head goes to one where summon stats matter the most

but it's all beside the point

[devout sedge]

it has to either be HyPa like (sacrifice 2 summon for chance to hit 2 enemies) or secondary effect to sacrificial pact added to GSH passive imo

[void portal]

@lyric fjord is that possible that gsh second chance can leave atleast one summon on field

[surreal zodiac]

yep main point is, it should be only gsh exclusive if we were to implement a passive for gsh then base gs and gsa would not be able to outshine gsh on the supposed area where gsh is tasked to perform

[light spindle]

just give gsh a pasive to pact hits aoe or something

[long glacier]

The man came by and you have him considering GSH AoE so let's make that the priority rn.

[void portal]

ok

[surreal zodiac]

and no pinging, odie would surely come by and visit

[lyric fjord]

and just like that, he's gone 🍃

[long glacier]

The egg is cracked

Fk

[long glacier]

A GSH inherited passive cannot be exploited.
We had multiple mentions of dying summons causing dmg.
A flasklike iteration can help but is way more work.

[abstract beacon]

I might be crazy. But wouldn't it make sense to leave gs/a the horde class? We have benefactor and jinn from bene that does aoe damage.

[dusk sandal]

From an endgame perspective at least gsa is slow at horde

[void portal]

gs and gsa do decent in almost all areas like raids, pvp and against horde

[abstract beacon]

But isnt that more of a class balance thing then? Then trying to shoehorn horde damage into gsh when we have something that does it just fine albeit slow

I may be wrong. So I'm OK with that

[void portal]

gsh is more risky while gsa is safe

[long glacier]

Speed is the only concern here as 'better' at raiding than base GS only means 'faster' in the end.

[surreal zodiac]

problem is they can't shred that good in high ang, mammon would decimate you the longer the fight takes

[dusk sandal]

I dont know about yall but I kinda want gsh to be a more general player based dmg class like beoh. Its about having different playstyles, summons vs player dmg (pacts etc.)

You could also say gsa is decent at raiding (albeit slow) therefore gsh doesnt need raiding capability, but that also doesnt really make sense

[light spindle]

I really really want gsh become something like beoH but summon based

[void portal]

gsh need to be better at raiding and I'll happen after gsh base stats get buffs

[void portal]

i want gsh to be unique instead

[abstract beacon]

You're right. But imo the solution isn't giving gsh a better horde clear when that could be fixed in different ways on gsa

[lyric fjord]

perhaps it would be good to defined community consensus on what GS/GSA excels at, then what it really fails at.

those failures can then be used to define what GSH should be good at

[void portal]

the thing is gsa and gs perform decently in almost everything

[void portal]

I'm not too sure about gs

[lyric fjord]

well those two comments are confusing

[surreal zodiac]

tbh if we fix horde gsh its only a matter of time for the tower part. GSA/GS is decent for those jobs, but gsh should be better, look at beoA and beoH u could do dungeons with selene and cactus on beoA its decent, but compared to beoH swansong or bl2 its much more efficient and it performs better than beoA.

[lyric fjord]

let's nerf it in a couple places then

[void portal]

i want that gsh can do everything gsa and gs can do but better(by sacrificing safety)

[void portal]

uh...

[long glacier]

What i see currently is that we had a discussion leading to a GSH capable of AoE.
Now Odie comes by and suddenly multiple different desires pop up.

I'd suggest that we focus on what we were building up, the horde GSH we discussed for hours.

[void portal]

ofc gsh aoe make it useful in towers and dgn content

i just want it to be decent in other places too so it's not lacking too much

[abstract beacon]

You can blame me for that. Sorry 😢@long glacier

I brought up horde and gsa

[dusk sandal]

Decently as in being able to complete content yes, but they lack speed due to the gap between player based dmg and summons at the endgame. It's just inevitable with the current full aoe meta whereas most summons only hit 1 target and take several turns to get going (you need to summon etc). Fundamentally summons will always be slower. My biggest problem with gs is towers and dungeons rather than raids. Raids can still be done quickly with player dmg (bp, ultima) whereas gs has currently not really fast aoe options (bl2 damage sucks). Hence my desire for aoe focus with gsh

[surreal zodiac]

not to mention that you need to invest a massive amount of als to make it work, unlike with other classes that you just need the perfect build and its alr functional with few als.

[long glacier]

No, it's just natural behaviour of the crowd once a dev shows up, so nothing to be sorry for🙂

[void portal]

I'm in support of gsh aoe too

[long glacier]

Get your votes in.
#💡│suggestions message

[abstract beacon]

Odie is 100% right though. It's always best to look at stuff backwards.. If the majority believe gsa lacks In horde then gsh should lean towards horde.

Do the majority believe that gsa excels most at raiding?

[void portal]

it's fast in raiding (donno about beta) but way risky

[dusk sandal]

Gsa for me excels at endless and safety. But usually I prefer speed over safety so it's not my preferred choice for raiding

[void portal]

i get one shot before complete buffs

but when i get enough buffs it take me few turns to beat the raid boss

[vital pebble]

i like pact builds the way they are now, like beithir, if it doesnt break my beithir build im fine

adding aoe would be cool though

[stuck mortar]

I would say summoner is the weakest PvP defense